Why HPBCUs Matter Featuring Dr. Marybeth Gasman and Dr. David A. Sanders

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Music.

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Hello and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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And today we're going to talk about historically and predominantly black colleges and universities.

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Yeah, we're about a month away from college starting again.

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I know it's hard to believe, man, this year is going so fast.

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At one point, it seemed like it wasn't going.

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And based on the politics, it seems like it's been going on forever.

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But yeah, we're halfway through 2025.

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And so it's about that time for young men and women to start matriculating at

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their respective colleges and universities.

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And so it's very fortunate that I have a divine producer.

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And that set it up where I have two experts consider, you know,

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that not considering, but two experts that concentrate, I think is the word I want to use.

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On Black colleges and universities.

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One is a scholar that has been instrumental in providing the history and the

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relevance of Black colleges and universities in the United States,

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and then to actually have a president of one of these institutions to come on,

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a young man who's from the area, who is now leading an institution in the area.

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You know, what a blessing that is. So I'm really, really excited.

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It was a joy to talk to these people, and I hope that you enjoy the conversations that we had.

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So, this is going to be a good show, and I appreciate y'all's support.

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Still trying to get to 20,000. That's my magic number, 20,000 subscribers on

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patreon.com slash amoment with Erik Fleming.

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It's only a dollar, ladies and gentlemen. Just, you know, feel free to sign

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up and support this program other than just listening.

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You know, there's a lot of things I still want to do, and there's some things

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that I probably need to get involved with.

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A little more with this venue. So please subscribe.

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And I would greatly appreciate that. All right.

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So let's go ahead and start the program. And as always, we kick it off with

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a moment of news with Grace G.

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Music.

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Thanks, Erik. President Trump signed his significant tax and spending cut package

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into law after it narrowly passed through Congress.

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Planned Parenthood has sued the Trump administration, alleging a domestic policy

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bill provision that prevents Medicaid reimbursements is unconstitutional.

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Elon Musk announced the formation of a new U.S. political party,

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the America Party, citing his opposition to President Trump's recently signed tax bill.

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Flash floods near San Antonio, Texas, killed at least 119 people,

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with more than 170 people still unaccounted for. The U.S.

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Supreme Court has allowed the Trump administration to proceed with plans for

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mass government job cuts and the downsizing of numerous federal agencies.

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The Internal Revenue Service will allow houses of worship to endorse political

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candidates without jeopardizing their tax-exempt status. President Trump stated

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his administration is considering taking over governance of Washington, D.C.

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Due to his dissatisfaction with current leadership and crime rates.

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Eight migrants lost their final appeal on Friday to avoid deportation to South

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Sudan by the Trump administration after a Massachusetts judge denied their request.

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A federal appeals court on Thursday upheld an injunction blocking a Texas law

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that would allow state authorities to arrest and prosecute individuals suspected

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of allegedly crossing the U.S.-Mexico border.

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Pope Leo appointed French Archbishop Thibaut Verney as the new head of the Vatican's

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Commission on Clergy Sexual Abuse.

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A 27-year-old Michigan man was fatally shot by U.S.

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Border Patrol agents after he opened fire with an assault rifle on a Border

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Patrol station in McAllen, Texas.

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The U.S. has reached a six-year high in measles cases this year, with 1,277 reported.

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And the Transportation Security Administration has ended its nearly two-decade-long

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policy, requiring travelers to remove their shoes during security checks at U.S.

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Airports. I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for

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my guest, Dr. Marybeth Gasman.

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Dr. Marybeth Gasman is the Samuel DeWitt Proctor Endowed Chair in Education,

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a distinguished professor, and the Associate Dean for Research in the Graduate

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School of Education at Rutgers University.

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She also serves as the Executive Director of the Samuel DeWitt Proctor Institute

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for Leadership, Equity, and Justice, and the Executive Director of the Rutgers

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Center for Minority-Serving Institutions.

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Prior to joining the faculty at Rutgers, Marybeth was the Judy and Howard Berkowitz

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Endowed Professor in the Graduate School of Education at the University of Pennsylvania.

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She is the author or editor of 35 books, including Educating a Diverse Nation,

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Envisioning Black Colleges, Making Black Scientists,

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Doing the Right Thing, How to End Systemic Racism in Faculty Hiring.

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HBCU, The Power of Historically Black Colleges and Universities,

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and the newest book, Why Historically Black Colleges Matter,

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25 Years of Research for Justice.

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Marybeth has written over 300 peer-reviewed articles, scholarly essays, and book chapters.

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She has penned over 650 opinion articles for the nation's newspapers and magazines

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and is ranked by Education Week as one of the 20 most influential education scholars in the nation.

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Marybeth has raised over $24 million in grant funding to support her research

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and that of her students, mentees, and MSI partners.

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She has served on the board of trustees of the College Board,

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as well as historically black colleges, Paul Quinn College, Morris Brown College,

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and St. Augustine College.

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She considers her proudest accomplishment to be receiving the University of

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Pennsylvania's Provost Award for Distinguished Ph.D.

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Teaching and Mentoring, serving as the dissertation chair for over 85,

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excuse me, doctoral students since 2000.

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Marybeth is an avid photographer, loves to write, and believes balance and

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harmony are essential to achieving life goals.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Marybeth Gasman.

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Music.

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All right. Dr. Marybeth Gasman. How are you doing, ma'am? You doing good?

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I am good. Thank you. Nice to be here with you. It was nice to be here with you, too.

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All right. I know you got a whole bunch of other things because you're so popular under the man.

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So we're going to go ahead and get this interview started.

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All righty. So I do a couple of icebreakers. So the first icebreaker is a quote.

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And the quote is, moreover, as we move through this moment of national uncertainty,

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we cannot lose sight of what makes the U.S.

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Vibrant, the recognition that talent exists in every community and that we all

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benefit when everyone has a chance to thrive.

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What does that quote mean to you? It means to me that we should be really proud

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of the fact that the country is so diverse and unique across the world in that regard,

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and that we should want everyone in our country to succeed and thrive as much as possible.

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All right. So my next icebreaker is a game I call 20 Questions,

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and I thank Lisa Swallow for coming up with that. Okay.

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So give me a number between 1 and 20.

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16. All right. What is a misconception people often have about your beliefs or values?

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I would say that people have a misconception about my background and thus attribute

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beliefs and values to me.

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And so a lot of times people think that I came, most people think I was born

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in New York to a rich, educated family.

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And I was not. I was born in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to an uneducated, extremely poor family.

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And I think because they assume the former,

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they assume that I don't care about issues that are really, really important

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to me, which opportunity and equity and access, because if not for all of those things,

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I would not have my career.

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I would not have any livelihood without those things.

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So they are incredibly important to me, not just for myself,

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but that everyone get to partake in that. And that links back to that quote, right?

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So, yeah. Yeah. I think the biggest misconception people had of me that I was

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a trust fund kid because I would show up at all these political fundraisers

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when I was first getting started.

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And people were wondering who is this guy and where did he come from and all

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that stuff. They just thought I had money.

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And it was like, no, I, and more than likely I probably walked to the event

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instead of drove. So yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah. All right. So why do historically black colleges and universities matter?

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Well, there are a number of reasons. I think historically without them,

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we would not have the black middle class that we have now.

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We would not have the black excellence and expertise and academic achievement

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and professional achievement that we have now because,

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of course, majority institutions would not enroll Black students because they

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were segregationist, racist, elitist, all of those things.

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And so Black colleges fill that need. And I would say today.

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Black colleges continue to fill many of those needs.

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They are places where people can explore their Black identity,

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their Blackness in a multitude of forms, which I think is so important.

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They are places that care about Black intellect, Black leadership.

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Black contributions that really kind of form a kind of wraparound around students

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and anyone within their ethos.

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And for me, that's incredibly important. You know,

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one thing I worry so much about right now in the country is what is going to

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happen to all these young black children and other children as well,

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but young black children who

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are being told in many ways by our administration that they don't matter.

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And not that that hasn't happened before, but it's happening right now.

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And I think black colleges are so essential because they are always like black

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lives have always mattered at black colleges.

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But all all blackness in all of its forms have has been lifted up at black colleges.

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That's incredibly important.

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And if if you're white and you're listening and you don't get that,

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you got to do more reading. You got to do more thinking.

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You got to like jump outside of yourself and understand that you don't necessarily

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understand everything that's happening around you.

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But you devoted 25 years of research into highlighting the contributions of HBCUs.

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What started you on your journey?

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Why did you go down that path as far as your research and your expertise?

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Well, so when I was in graduate school, I was in graduate school and getting

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a PhD, but I didn't really know what I wanted to do because I came from a very

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uneducated family and I didn't have really social capital to understand how it all worked.

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So I was just kind of taking classes and trying to figure out what I was going to do.

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And I took this class related to philanthropy and higher education.

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And in that class, my teacher gave me, this is in when I was getting a PhD,

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but gave me a book called The Education of Blacks in the South by James Anderson, who is an HBCU grad.

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And that book fundamentally changed my entire career trajectory and also my

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way of thinking. And it's an amazing book.

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I have two copies. One of them is just falling apart and my students bought me another one.

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But what it does is it shows the agency and the activism and the actions of

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Black people after the Civil War to ensure that they were educated,

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to ensure that Black people were educated.

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And, you know, yes, Black people have been victims and victimized,

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but what this does is it doesn't just show that story.

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It shows the entirety of the story. So rather than saying, oh,

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black people were in this difficult position and white people swooped in and

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they saved them all, it shows another story.

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It shows how black people created much of their own destiny and also how there

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were white people who swooped in, but not for the reasons you think,

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instead for the reasons of they might have needed a semi-skilled workforce. You know what I mean?

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It was a really, really interesting book, and I just wanted to learn more,

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and I learned about Black colleges. I learned about Fisk University in that

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book, which is the first Black college I ever went to.

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I've been to 103 of the 105 now, but I've been to Fisk about 17 times,

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and it changed my whole way of thinking.

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It made me realize that the education that I got was not complete.

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And that and at first I was really mad, you know, because that's what happens

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when something, you know, you get mad.

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But then I decided to kind of do something about it and really dedicate my life

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to being a historian and someone who is, you know, interested in delving deeply into black history.

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So it changed my life completely. And I go back and read that book all the time. Yeah, that's cool.

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Having served on several boards of HBCUs, what do you see as the biggest challenge

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to the sustainability of these institutions and what can be done to fix that?

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Well, you learn a lot by serving on boards, and I've served on three HBCU boards,

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three HBCUs that are completely different.

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I think what you learn is that the best HBCUs have boards that hire the president.

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That's your job, hiring the president.

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Believe in that president, support that president, and help them to do their best job.

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If they don't, it becomes really problematic.

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I mean, if the board is trying to run the university or the college,

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it becomes really, really difficult.

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I think that's where you see like leadership turnover. And that is an issue.

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I mean, it's not just an issue at HBCUs. It's an issue everywhere right now

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because who would want to be a president?

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But especially with all the federal attacks on higher education.

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But but it also, you know, HBCUs have had quite a bit of presidential turnover.

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That leads to instability. So that can be a really difficult situation.

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I also think that, you know, another big challenge is enrollment fluctuations.

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Because HBCUs are incredibly tuition-driven, which means that their livelihood

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is based on how many students they have, it's incredibly important to keep that enrollment steady.

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And that can be really difficult, especially when we have all of what's going on right now.

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And, you know, right now we have a large-scale attack on the value of higher

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education. And so that means that there are people out there saying,

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well, you don't need a college degree.

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It's always people with a college degree saying that, though.

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Find me someone who says it without one, okay? And one thing that we know is

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that if you have a college degree, your health is better, your income is going

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to be higher, your safety is better.

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There are all of these things that become better because you have more education.

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You're able to navigate our nation and democracy in more productive ways.

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So it's really important that enrollment continue to rise and not kind of,

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you know, kind of go up and down at HBCUs.

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And then I would say another major one is.

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The thing that I tell everybody over and over, and I've been saying for years,

00:19:47.758 --> 00:19:51.798
and I've testified before Congress about this, is there are two areas where

00:19:51.798 --> 00:19:53.698
HBCUs need immense help.

00:19:53.818 --> 00:20:00.778
And that is they need an infrastructure built out for what's like the procurement

00:20:00.778 --> 00:20:02.418
of grants and contracts.

00:20:02.938 --> 00:20:07.098
Some of them have that now, but some of them, compared to majority institutions,

00:20:07.498 --> 00:20:11.198
there's really not much of a comparison because they need to be able to go out

00:20:11.198 --> 00:20:12.618
and get more grants and contracts.

00:20:12.918 --> 00:20:16.018
The other thing they need, which kind of goes hand in hand with that,

00:20:16.178 --> 00:20:19.498
is they need more developed fundraising areas.

00:20:19.838 --> 00:20:25.898
And I would love to see a philanthropist come in and develop those areas fully

00:20:25.898 --> 00:20:33.398
for HBCUs because that would be transformational for what HBCUs could do.

00:20:33.598 --> 00:20:37.738
I mean, there are some that have really built out these areas,

00:20:37.738 --> 00:20:41.298
but by and large, they're underdeveloped.

00:20:42.318 --> 00:20:47.098
Yeah. So as an alum of an HBCU, I went to Jackson State University.

00:20:47.538 --> 00:20:51.618
My biggest concern has been endowments at these institutions.

00:20:51.938 --> 00:20:57.538
Is it possible for alumni of these institutions to build endowments like their

00:20:57.538 --> 00:21:03.638
PWI counterparts, I always compared Jackson State to like Rice University, right?

00:21:03.838 --> 00:21:10.098
So Rice University, private school, you know, you had this guy who gave a whole lot of money.

00:21:10.718 --> 00:21:16.258
The school is actually smaller than Jackson State, but they have this incredible endowment, right?

00:21:16.398 --> 00:21:20.978
Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I look at, you know, the history of Jackson State

00:21:20.978 --> 00:21:23.298
and it was like it was a teacher's college initially.

00:21:23.578 --> 00:21:29.578
Right, it was. So you don't, so you're not going to get big dollar donors coming

00:21:29.578 --> 00:21:31.658
out of a teacher's college, right?

00:21:31.998 --> 00:21:36.498
You know, now that it's expanded and all that with engineering and all that,

00:21:36.598 --> 00:21:44.238
but is it realistic for HBCUs to be able to build those kinds of endowments?

00:21:45.115 --> 00:21:49.635
Okay, so here's an interesting thing. I probably, I think, you know,

00:21:49.975 --> 00:21:51.455
your example is really interesting.

00:21:51.455 --> 00:21:57.355
I would probably make a slightly different comparison where I might look at

00:21:57.355 --> 00:22:02.655
a private institution in Mississippi or a public, another public,

00:22:02.795 --> 00:22:04.555
predominantly white institution in Mississippi.

00:22:04.655 --> 00:22:07.035
But let's just think about this for a minute.

00:22:07.195 --> 00:22:11.855
The reason why these institutions like a Rice or a Duke or an Emory,

00:22:11.895 --> 00:22:17.775
or you can take institutions all over the country that are private and have large endowments.

00:22:18.255 --> 00:22:23.275
There are endowments, I want you to think about it for listeners in terms of your own money, okay?

00:22:23.435 --> 00:22:27.515
So if you invest your money in, let's say a brokerage account,

00:22:27.695 --> 00:22:29.415
it's going to grow, grow, grow.

00:22:29.575 --> 00:22:33.475
And the more money you have, the bigger it's gonna get. So these institutions

00:22:33.475 --> 00:22:40.315
have all of this old money and it's growing and growing and growing and growing.

00:22:40.535 --> 00:22:42.835
And so to catch up with that is really difficult.

00:22:43.215 --> 00:22:48.935
Now, could you have someone who makes it big and decides to make a really big

00:22:48.935 --> 00:22:51.535
donation to Jackson State?

00:22:51.935 --> 00:22:55.735
Yes, you could. And they could give that to the endowment and then that would

00:22:55.735 --> 00:22:58.395
help the endowment to start growing and growing and growing.

00:22:58.595 --> 00:23:02.595
What would be even better is if they made that donation and then got 10 of their

00:23:02.595 --> 00:23:08.735
friends to join them in the donation and then they got 10 of their friends to join.

00:23:08.995 --> 00:23:13.155
I mean, there definitely are issues around the fact that African-Americans historically

00:23:13.155 --> 00:23:19.995
and today don't make as much money, don't have as many assets as white people.

00:23:20.155 --> 00:23:24.035
And so they're not going to be able to give as much. But.

00:23:24.491 --> 00:23:29.031
You definitely need to see more giving. I mean, one thing I do know is that

00:23:29.031 --> 00:23:33.311
among public HBCUs, the alumni giving rates have gone up a little,

00:23:33.511 --> 00:23:35.551
but they're still, you know, not that high.

00:23:35.751 --> 00:23:39.691
And so you, if you care about your institution, you got to give to the institution.

00:23:39.731 --> 00:23:44.511
And as you make it, you have, you know, you want to give back to the institution

00:23:44.511 --> 00:23:49.071
and anybody that you know who could be giving to the institution,

00:23:49.071 --> 00:23:51.911
you want to be talking to them about the institution.

00:23:53.631 --> 00:23:56.711
So I'll love Fisk, because it's the first HBCU I ever went to.

00:23:56.811 --> 00:24:01.231
It's got this amazing history, you know, like just all these Harlem Renaissance

00:24:01.231 --> 00:24:04.631
luminaries who were there and just amazing, amazing people.

00:24:05.011 --> 00:24:09.331
And I mean, like James Weldon Johnson, right, who wrote Lift Every Voice,

00:24:09.491 --> 00:24:14.131
I mean, or Aaron Douglas, or like there's County Cullen, or Georgia O'Keeffe

00:24:14.131 --> 00:24:16.311
gave her an art collection there.

00:24:16.571 --> 00:24:19.831
W.E.B. Du Bois went there. I mean, there's just so many people.

00:24:20.351 --> 00:24:27.051
So what I, I, I literally, anytime someone I can bring up Fisk and kind of get

00:24:27.051 --> 00:24:29.911
people to give to Fisk, I will bring it up.

00:24:29.991 --> 00:24:33.291
I literally, Hey, do you know about Fisk? Hey, you're in Nashville.

00:24:33.511 --> 00:24:37.071
You've got a great job. You know, do you know about Fisk? I'm always telling

00:24:37.071 --> 00:24:40.331
people about Fisk because I would like more people to give to it.

00:24:40.571 --> 00:24:43.391
So that's what you got to do with your alma mater.

00:24:43.731 --> 00:24:48.731
And, and if you, if you're in business and you meet people who have money and

00:24:48.731 --> 00:24:51.351
they're looking for places to give, bring up your alma mater.

00:24:51.551 --> 00:24:53.391
You know, that's an important thing to do.

00:24:53.691 --> 00:25:00.311
But we can't get away from the fact that African Americans have fewer assets, make less money.

00:25:00.531 --> 00:25:03.491
We live in an unequitable, it's inequitable, right?

00:25:03.591 --> 00:25:07.591
Our country is inequitable in terms of this. No matter what people are trying

00:25:07.591 --> 00:25:09.371
to tell you, it's inequitable.

00:25:09.711 --> 00:25:14.411
So that makes it harder. What I always tell people, money begets money.

00:25:15.048 --> 00:25:17.688
Right. The more money you have, the more money you're going to get.

00:25:18.088 --> 00:25:22.128
And the more money you have, the more often people are going to give you things.

00:25:23.108 --> 00:25:28.188
It's just that they want to be attached to things that are rich and successful.

00:25:28.548 --> 00:25:33.468
So, you know, try to give as much as you can to your alma mater and more people

00:25:33.468 --> 00:25:34.788
will give if they see you giving.

00:25:34.928 --> 00:25:38.068
And then you got to tell everybody you're giving to don't hide it.

00:25:38.288 --> 00:25:41.668
Like, say that you're giving. That's incredibly important. Yeah.

00:25:41.988 --> 00:25:46.148
So it's funny that you mentioned about comparing it to other schools.

00:25:46.328 --> 00:25:51.108
What triggered me on this journey looking at endowments was the fact that when

00:25:51.108 --> 00:25:55.908
I served in the state legislature, you know, Jackson State, Mississippi has

00:25:55.908 --> 00:25:57.468
eight state-supported universities.

00:25:57.468 --> 00:26:06.268
And so, you know, I looked at Jackson State and I'm saying 70% of their money

00:26:06.268 --> 00:26:08.428
comes from the state, right?

00:26:08.568 --> 00:26:13.148
As far as we appropriate money, whereas the University of Mississippi or folks

00:26:13.148 --> 00:26:17.348
call it Ole Miss, they were only getting 30% of their money from the state.

00:26:17.708 --> 00:26:22.408
And so I was like, well, why is that? And that's when I started diving into

00:26:22.408 --> 00:26:28.188
the endowment thing. So, yeah, so that's why, you know, I was that's always

00:26:28.188 --> 00:26:31.088
been ever since then, that's always been an issue.

00:26:31.248 --> 00:26:34.568
And I've and I've tried to do my part and got others as well.

00:26:35.608 --> 00:26:40.848
You already stated that HBCUs are the most important factor in the creation

00:26:40.848 --> 00:26:42.468
of a black middle class in America.

00:26:42.908 --> 00:26:48.168
Given the polarization that is happening in America, do you believe that a black

00:26:48.168 --> 00:26:52.808
person's best option to succeed is to attend an HBCU?

00:26:53.448 --> 00:27:01.848
I think that the best option for Black people and any students is to go to a

00:27:01.848 --> 00:27:06.608
college where they feel affirmed and empowered and seen.

00:27:06.928 --> 00:27:14.668
And so, for example, if that is an HBCU, then yes, absolutely go there.

00:27:14.668 --> 00:27:20.588
But if if what you're interested in is at another institution and you are treated

00:27:20.588 --> 00:27:23.968
well, then I think it's perfectly fine to go there.

00:27:24.128 --> 00:27:27.568
I mean, I won't I'll be I'll be really frank about this. Like,

00:27:27.648 --> 00:27:28.548
you know, so I have a daughter.

00:27:28.748 --> 00:27:32.128
Right. And my daughter went to a women's college and it was one of the best

00:27:32.128 --> 00:27:36.928
things that could have ever happened to her. I mean, she is confident and she

00:27:36.928 --> 00:27:38.968
knows how to advocate for herself.

00:27:39.128 --> 00:27:45.008
If I were an African-American woman and I had a daughter, I would absolutely

00:27:45.008 --> 00:27:46.068
want her to go to Spelman.

00:27:46.646 --> 00:27:49.966
I mean, there is no doubt in my mind that I would want her to go to Spelman.

00:27:50.146 --> 00:27:51.566
You know, I just, I would.

00:27:51.806 --> 00:27:57.326
And part of that is because I have never met a Spelman woman who I wasn't impressed with, ever.

00:27:58.126 --> 00:28:03.926
I've met so many women who've gone to Spelman who are, they're confident,

00:28:03.926 --> 00:28:08.826
they can advocate for themselves, they know what they want out of life.

00:28:08.906 --> 00:28:10.566
And I think that's incredibly important.

00:28:11.246 --> 00:28:17.306
And I also see that in a lot of graduates from other HBCUs as well.

00:28:17.546 --> 00:28:23.346
But I do think that the key is that African-Americans should have the choice

00:28:23.346 --> 00:28:25.806
to go wherever they want to go.

00:28:25.946 --> 00:28:29.626
And Black colleges are one of those choices. Now,

00:28:29.786 --> 00:28:35.286
I will say that hopefully we don't see a lot of these majority institutions

00:28:35.286 --> 00:28:38.906
acquiescing to the demands of the Trump administration,

00:28:38.906 --> 00:28:45.786
because I think then they will become places that are really not welcoming to

00:28:45.786 --> 00:28:47.026
African-American students.

00:28:47.026 --> 00:28:53.026
And, you know, HBCUs can't, they don't have the room to educate every African-American student.

00:28:53.226 --> 00:28:57.486
There are too many, right? So it's important that African-Americans have choices,

00:28:57.486 --> 00:29:04.186
but I do think that they offer a safer space with regard to racial issues than

00:29:04.186 --> 00:29:06.006
most institutions right now.

00:29:06.466 --> 00:29:11.826
Yeah. So since you kind of mentioned our current president, what is your biggest

00:29:11.826 --> 00:29:15.606
concern in this political climate concerning HBCUs?

00:29:15.606 --> 00:29:22.386
Well, so far, he's been fairly hands-off with direct hits to HBCUs.

00:29:22.626 --> 00:29:30.886
I am concerned about the Pell Grant because almost 70% of HBCU students receive Pell Grants.

00:29:31.646 --> 00:29:39.146
Lowering Pell, messing with Pell, that's really detrimental to the future of HBCUs.

00:29:39.246 --> 00:29:42.826
I don't know about you, I was a Pell Grant student incredibly important.

00:29:43.748 --> 00:29:47.628
That's one thing I'm worried about. Messing with the TRIO programs,

00:29:47.688 --> 00:29:51.608
which are prominent on HBCU campuses and many others.

00:29:52.008 --> 00:29:58.088
Concerned about that. Messing with grants that have to do with anything that he deems DEI.

00:29:58.928 --> 00:30:03.908
Most of them have nothing to do with that at all. But there are a lot of HBCU.

00:30:04.108 --> 00:30:09.108
I've been very excited about all the HBCU scientists that have been getting

00:30:09.108 --> 00:30:13.088
like NSF, NIH grants, where before they weren't getting very many.

00:30:13.208 --> 00:30:16.308
Now they under Biden, they were getting a lot more because, you know,

00:30:16.428 --> 00:30:20.008
really tried to work on equity and fairness there.

00:30:20.008 --> 00:30:26.508
I'm worried about that money fading away and being taken away from young Black

00:30:26.508 --> 00:30:30.808
scientists. I mean, we really need young Black scientists. This is so important.

00:30:31.048 --> 00:30:38.808
I am concerned about Trump's attacks on foundations that support Black colleges

00:30:38.808 --> 00:30:42.888
and give money to issues that are important to Black colleges.

00:30:42.888 --> 00:30:48.328
He's been threatening foundations to be taxing them at much higher rates and

00:30:48.328 --> 00:30:53.208
everything. So those are some of the things I think at this point he's been

00:30:53.208 --> 00:30:55.788
persuaded not to do a direct hit.

00:30:56.108 --> 00:31:00.968
But that doesn't mean that there aren't a number of conservative groups out there who would like.

00:31:01.108 --> 00:31:06.868
I mean, I've read their work, right? They don't want public HBCUs to receive any money,

00:31:06.968 --> 00:31:10.828
even though these are probably the descendants of the same people that are the

00:31:10.828 --> 00:31:15.248
reasons why we have public HBCUs, because they wouldn't let people into predominantly

00:31:15.248 --> 00:31:16.728
white institutions, right?

00:31:16.728 --> 00:31:21.308
I believe wholeheartedly that these are probably the descendants of those people.

00:31:21.668 --> 00:31:27.028
So, you know, it's so interesting that states created these institutions,

00:31:27.028 --> 00:31:31.448
the public ones, in order to maintain segregation.

00:31:31.448 --> 00:31:36.308
And then at the same time, here they come with people wanting to eliminate them

00:31:36.308 --> 00:31:39.488
because they don't want to give to something that's black.

00:31:40.444 --> 00:31:43.704
Right. I mean, how ironic is that? That's why we need to. I mean,

00:31:43.764 --> 00:31:46.984
I'm a historian and it's incredibly important that we know our history.

00:31:47.744 --> 00:31:51.184
Incredibly, incredibly important because people will play us.

00:31:51.424 --> 00:31:56.264
They will play people if you do not know your history. You're seeing it daily.

00:31:56.884 --> 00:31:59.844
Yeah well and that's that's the reason i love history i

00:31:59.844 --> 00:32:03.864
tell people all the time you got to understand history to

00:32:03.864 --> 00:32:06.644
understand a lot of the things that are going on now and

00:32:06.644 --> 00:32:09.804
and to answer your question yes i was a pell grant student i

00:32:09.804 --> 00:32:12.844
had an academic scholarship to jackson state but that pell grant

00:32:12.844 --> 00:32:17.304
helped out a lot too so let's close

00:32:17.304 --> 00:32:20.104
out with this how you you've been to you

00:32:20.104 --> 00:32:23.924
said 103 out of the 105 hbcus

00:32:23.924 --> 00:32:30.504
yeah i have yeah what what was your most memorable experience at an hbcu so

00:32:30.504 --> 00:32:40.244
my most memorable experience is so i have this friend his name is kent wallace

00:32:40.244 --> 00:32:42.504
and he is a physicist at Fisk.

00:32:43.224 --> 00:32:48.244
And I have known him since I was 17 years old. Okay.

00:32:48.924 --> 00:32:52.284
And, you know, we knew each other when we were younger.

00:32:52.644 --> 00:32:55.944
We lived, he lived in Chicago. I lived up in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan,

00:32:55.944 --> 00:32:57.744
but we were sort of like pen pals.

00:32:58.284 --> 00:33:00.884
And, you know, we ended up losing touch.

00:33:01.644 --> 00:33:06.404
Both went off to college. And the most interesting thing that happened to both

00:33:06.404 --> 00:33:09.944
of us is that I ended up doing research related to HBCUs.

00:33:10.184 --> 00:33:14.904
He ended up attending an HBCU and, you know, he's an African-American man.

00:33:15.064 --> 00:33:20.664
He attended HBCU and he ended up teaching at FISC. He's now the dean of the grad school there.

00:33:20.864 --> 00:33:26.224
And we ended up, he runs this thing called the FISC Rocket Program,

00:33:26.464 --> 00:33:28.644
which is an amazing, amazing program at FISC.

00:33:28.744 --> 00:33:32.664
And I wrote this piece for the Chronicle of Higher Ed about the FISC Rocket

00:33:32.664 --> 00:33:34.944
Program, not realizing that he ran it.

00:33:35.466 --> 00:33:40.086
And after I wrote it and wrote this very, like, uplifting piece about what they

00:33:40.086 --> 00:33:47.546
were doing, he sent me an email that said, are you Mary, who I knew when I was, like, 17?

00:33:47.826 --> 00:33:51.886
And I was like, I don't know. And because he had a different,

00:33:52.426 --> 00:33:55.866
he used a different name at that point, his first name.

00:33:56.146 --> 00:34:02.466
And he said, it's Kent. And I was just like, oh, my God, you are my pen pal from when I was young.

00:34:02.466 --> 00:34:06.106
And basically we reunited and

00:34:06.106 --> 00:34:09.066
now we see each other every single year and i'll tell

00:34:09.066 --> 00:34:14.066
you my memory is that whenever i go to nashville i go to fist and i ask for

00:34:14.066 --> 00:34:19.246
the same tour every year that he gives me where we go to all the special places

00:34:19.246 --> 00:34:23.726
like the dubois sculpture jubilee hall where the jubilee singers that where

00:34:23.726 --> 00:34:28.366
they funded that all of the beautiful pictures of the jubilee singers the chapel,

00:34:28.606 --> 00:34:30.466
the Georgia O'Keeffe art collection.

00:34:31.106 --> 00:34:33.626
The, you know, the Aaron Douglas murals.

00:34:33.786 --> 00:34:39.506
I go back and see them over and over every, every time I go and Kent gives the best to her.

00:34:39.666 --> 00:34:44.566
So that's my, that's my beautiful memory about Fisk and my dear,

00:34:44.726 --> 00:34:49.926
dear friend who we were reunited because of Fisk, which is so lovely,

00:34:49.926 --> 00:34:51.746
you know? That's really, really cool.

00:34:51.926 --> 00:34:54.026
And for the younger listeners out there.

00:34:54.686 --> 00:34:57.866
Yes. Before social media, we used to do the pen pal thing.

00:34:59.806 --> 00:35:03.666
It'll be a whole nother show to have to explain that. Look, Dr.

00:35:03.786 --> 00:35:08.966
Marybeth Gasman, I really, really am honored to have met you and to talk to

00:35:08.966 --> 00:35:10.566
you and to have you come on the podcast.

00:35:11.366 --> 00:35:17.266
And I know you've written like 35 or so odd books. How can people reach out to you?

00:35:17.386 --> 00:35:20.486
How can people get copies of the books? Go ahead and make that pitch?

00:35:20.866 --> 00:35:24.306
So they're all available. You can get them on Amazon, Barnes & Noble,

00:35:24.506 --> 00:35:27.606
any bookstore through any bookstore, a lot of local bookstores,

00:35:27.806 --> 00:35:29.046
African-American bookstores.

00:35:29.786 --> 00:35:37.206
My website is just marybethgassman.net, and you can click on all my books there.

00:35:37.466 --> 00:35:44.206
Please add me if you're on Instagram. It's just at marybethgasman or on LinkedIn if you like that.

00:35:44.526 --> 00:35:48.706
Feel free to add me, and I post about all my books and all the stuff I'm doing.

00:35:49.086 --> 00:35:51.266
And I like to post about a lot of other

00:35:51.266 --> 00:35:54.526
people too, especially a lot of African-American scholars and leaders.

00:35:54.766 --> 00:35:57.406
So yeah. So that's how you can get ahold of me.

00:35:57.746 --> 00:36:02.186
Thank you, Eric. All right. Well, thank you, Dr. Gasman. I greatly appreciate you coming on.

00:36:02.466 --> 00:36:06.506
Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you. All right, guys, we'll catch y'all on the other side.

00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:26.160
Music.

00:36:26.032 --> 00:36:32.372
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Dr. David A.

00:36:33.032 --> 00:36:37.132
Sanders. As the president of the new Malcolm X College, Dr.

00:36:37.312 --> 00:36:42.432
Sanders is responsible for over 15,000 students, over 900 employees,

00:36:42.452 --> 00:36:46.032
and a combined budget of over $75 million.

00:36:46.852 --> 00:36:51.172
He is charged with the overall vision, mission, and operations of the college,

00:36:51.332 --> 00:36:55.512
as well as developing and implementing an overall strategic plan,

00:36:55.792 --> 00:37:01.192
a strategic enrollment management plan, and an equity plan for the college,

00:37:01.212 --> 00:37:03.192
which includes the development,

00:37:03.532 --> 00:37:07.752
accreditation, management, and control of 26 health science programs,

00:37:08.272 --> 00:37:09.652
12 of which are accredited.

00:37:10.052 --> 00:37:16.492
Since his appointment in 2015, President Sanders has successfully led Malcolm

00:37:16.492 --> 00:37:23.252
X College to approve site and 10-year reaccreditation visit by the Higher Learning Commission,

00:37:23.532 --> 00:37:32.612
and led Malcolm X to be named one of the 2019 and 2021 to 2024 most promising

00:37:32.612 --> 00:37:40.012
places to work in community college by the NISOD and diverse issues in higher education magazine.

00:37:41.392 --> 00:37:45.972
Successfully led Malcolm X College to meet or exceed its metrics and completion

00:37:45.972 --> 00:37:54.092
outcomes, including graduation rate, retention, completion, licensure pass rates, and job placement.

00:37:54.772 --> 00:37:59.392
Successfully led Malcolm X College to its highest enrollment in over 20 years,

00:37:59.512 --> 00:38:02.812
surpassing the 11,100 mark in credit enrollment.

00:38:03.512 --> 00:38:08.252
The growth in enrollment was led by African-American males, with enrollment

00:38:08.252 --> 00:38:10.272
gains in every demographic.

00:38:10.672 --> 00:38:17.212
Malcolm X College was one of only three colleges in Illinois to have enrollment

00:38:17.212 --> 00:38:20.952
gains during the 2020 coronavirus pandemic.

00:38:21.810 --> 00:38:27.010
Successfully led Malcolm X College to develop a study abroad program that has

00:38:27.010 --> 00:38:30.610
transformationally impacted students and energized the student body.

00:38:31.250 --> 00:38:35.230
Successfully led Malcolm X College to be named the best community college in

00:38:35.230 --> 00:38:38.910
the city of Chicago by Intelligent.com in 2023.

00:38:39.790 --> 00:38:46.210
Successfully managed the CCC School of Nursing to become one of the best associate

00:38:46.210 --> 00:38:51.910
degree nursing programs in the state by volume and average pass rates of over

00:38:51.910 --> 00:38:54.150
90 percent over the past seven years,

00:38:54.150 --> 00:38:57.290
successfully led Malcolm X

00:38:57.350 --> 00:39:03.550
College to generate over $22 million in new grants for fiscal year 21-22 for

00:39:03.550 --> 00:39:09.950
a total grants portfolio exceeding $31 million and successfully managed the

00:39:09.950 --> 00:39:13.810
consolidation of six healthcare programs into the new Malcolm H.

00:39:13.910 --> 00:39:18.690
College, including approvals from the varied accrediting and regulatory bodies.

00:39:18.950 --> 00:39:26.630
Dr. Sanders holds a bachelor's degree in finance from DePaul University in Chicago

00:39:26.630 --> 00:39:31.250
and a master's in educational leadership from Concordia University and is a

00:39:31.250 --> 00:39:35.870
doctoral candidate in higher education leadership from Concordia University, Chicago.

00:39:36.310 --> 00:39:38.990
A dedicated and committed Christian man, Dr.

00:39:39.150 --> 00:39:44.230
Sanders serves his national, state, and local church in a variety of leadership

00:39:44.230 --> 00:39:48.910
capacities and is known for his faith, humility, liberality,

00:39:49.930 --> 00:39:52.290
patience, strength, and dogmatic determination.

00:39:52.710 --> 00:39:58.470
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my honor and privilege, my distinct honor and privilege

00:39:58.470 --> 00:40:03.530
to have as a guest on this podcast, Dr. David A. Sanders.

00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:15.920
Music.

00:40:15.869 --> 00:40:19.569
Dr. David A. Sanders. How are you doing, sir? Are you doing good?

00:40:20.169 --> 00:40:25.109
I'm doing great. How are you, Erik? I'm doing lovely, man. It's always good

00:40:25.109 --> 00:40:26.709
to talk to somebody in Chicago.

00:40:27.229 --> 00:40:32.189
I got to go by your campus when they had the Democratic Convention.

00:40:32.749 --> 00:40:37.169
We had to go by there and stuff. So it's changed a lot from when I left.

00:40:37.169 --> 00:40:45.829
I left in 1983, so it's a whole different campus structure, but it looks really, really good.

00:40:46.209 --> 00:40:51.609
Well, thank you. We worked very hard and very diligently to build a facility

00:40:51.609 --> 00:40:57.729
that the West Side, some say it's the best side, but that the West Side would

00:40:57.729 --> 00:41:01.189
be proud of, and they'd want to come to school here.

00:41:01.369 --> 00:41:06.269
But it wasn't just the physical structure was also the programs and the quality

00:41:06.269 --> 00:41:08.449
of instruction that we provide and then the supports.

00:41:08.769 --> 00:41:13.929
So we really tried to pull all of that together to make sure that we're providing

00:41:13.929 --> 00:41:17.009
our students with the best in class and whatever they need.

00:41:17.609 --> 00:41:20.769
Yeah. Yeah. Now, I grew up on the south side of Chicago.

00:41:20.949 --> 00:41:24.229
So, you know, I might have to disagree with that west side thing,

00:41:24.329 --> 00:41:27.309
but, you know, it's all Chicago love. It's all good.

00:41:28.129 --> 00:41:32.149
That's right. All right. So normally how I start the interviews off,

00:41:32.149 --> 00:41:35.409
I do icebreakers. So the first icebreaker is a quote.

00:41:35.789 --> 00:41:40.929
When we invest in higher education spaces, we help to attract the next generation

00:41:40.929 --> 00:41:44.769
of students and create pathways to upward mobility.

00:41:44.969 --> 00:41:50.349
What does that quote mean to you? Well, I think it's indicative of what the

00:41:50.349 --> 00:41:51.969
world should be doing now,

00:41:52.129 --> 00:41:58.649
and it's why I'm so resistant to many of the policies that are being implemented right now,

00:41:58.689 --> 00:42:03.989
because they don't take into consideration those individuals who need help and

00:42:03.989 --> 00:42:08.329
support and haven't been provided the fundamental resources necessary for them

00:42:08.329 --> 00:42:09.589
to achieve their destiny.

00:42:09.589 --> 00:42:15.949
I believe every person has the ability to be great and that they were born to

00:42:15.949 --> 00:42:19.969
have a meaningful impact upon this country.

00:42:20.389 --> 00:42:26.029
And without us providing those supports and those helps and the investment,

00:42:26.549 --> 00:42:32.209
we limit the ability of individuals to achieve their true destiny.

00:42:32.349 --> 00:42:37.829
I think, you know, that's what we absolutely must do every single day and we'll

00:42:37.829 --> 00:42:39.889
be a better country for it. Yeah.

00:42:40.489 --> 00:42:44.269
All right. So the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.

00:42:44.609 --> 00:42:47.609
So give me a number between one and 20.

00:42:48.449 --> 00:42:54.589
Seven. All right. What do you consider the best way to stay informed about politics,

00:42:54.869 --> 00:42:57.709
current events, health, et cetera?

00:42:58.209 --> 00:43:02.389
Well, you know, what I've learned over the course of my years is that you can't

00:43:02.389 --> 00:43:05.569
believe everything you hear. So you have to investigate.

00:43:05.849 --> 00:43:11.749
You have to really figure out where you can get quantifiable,

00:43:12.129 --> 00:43:16.809
qualitative information that's going to allow you to make your best judgment.

00:43:17.209 --> 00:43:22.189
And that can be difficult at times, but it's important for us to realize that,

00:43:22.189 --> 00:43:27.389
you know, people have different perspectives on, you know, what they are producing

00:43:27.389 --> 00:43:28.469
or what they're presenting.

00:43:28.789 --> 00:43:33.489
So, you know, if they're presenting that, hey, you know, you're going to Mars

00:43:33.489 --> 00:43:39.189
tomorrow, well, you know, it's pretty easy for you to figure out that's not happening, right?

00:43:39.349 --> 00:43:43.269
But if they present to you that the world is great, well, you know,

00:43:43.389 --> 00:43:44.689
that's your perspective.

00:43:45.009 --> 00:43:49.409
So you've got to take all of those things into consideration and really get

00:43:49.409 --> 00:43:54.669
down to the core essence of truth to determine, you know, what is good information

00:43:54.669 --> 00:43:59.649
and what is bad information, and then do your own investigations to come up,

00:43:59.909 --> 00:44:05.889
you know, with the, you know, the reality of where we're at as relative to truth.

00:44:06.069 --> 00:44:11.589
And I think the final thing of that is always be open because you may believe

00:44:11.589 --> 00:44:16.049
something today, but you get information tomorrow that helps you to realize

00:44:16.049 --> 00:44:19.869
that that really is the truth that you should know about.

00:44:20.443 --> 00:44:25.323
Yeah. So how does it feel to be considered one of the titans of Chicago?

00:44:28.083 --> 00:44:32.803
Well, you know, I'm honored and privileged. You know, I think it just means

00:44:32.803 --> 00:44:37.403
that I've been working right and that we've been trying our best to do everything

00:44:37.403 --> 00:44:39.383
possible to help our students to be successful.

00:44:39.383 --> 00:44:46.903
And the fact that, you know, we are now going in to be a Hall of Fame for Titan

00:44:46.903 --> 00:44:48.823
is just incredible to me.

00:44:49.043 --> 00:44:53.343
I didn't even know that the organization existed three years ago.

00:44:53.543 --> 00:44:58.903
And now, you know, my name is being included, you know, across the country.

00:45:00.083 --> 00:45:04.483
And it's just representative of the work that my faculty, I think I have the

00:45:04.483 --> 00:45:05.663
best faculty in the world.

00:45:05.943 --> 00:45:10.123
They're amazing and they do, they're dedicated, committed to our students.

00:45:10.403 --> 00:45:13.983
My staff, they work so diligently and so hard.

00:45:14.223 --> 00:45:18.563
I mean, you know, when you look at where we were 15 years ago,

00:45:19.203 --> 00:45:23.663
well, I should say 10 years ago, because that's when I started there and look

00:45:23.663 --> 00:45:27.023
at where we're at Now it's night and day and it didn't happen,

00:45:27.023 --> 00:45:29.043
you know, because of David Sanders,

00:45:29.563 --> 00:45:35.383
albeit it happened because our team came together and we gave a vision and a

00:45:35.383 --> 00:45:40.523
focus and they accepted it and adopted it and moved it forward.

00:45:40.783 --> 00:45:44.123
So, you know, I think it's representative of the work that we're continuing

00:45:44.123 --> 00:45:48.863
to do and that we're going to do in the future to make sure that every single

00:45:48.863 --> 00:45:53.963
student that walks through our door has the opportunity to succeed. Yeah.

00:45:54.883 --> 00:46:00.323
So outside of your higher education leadership training, you have been an active

00:46:00.323 --> 00:46:02.163
leader in your church denomination.

00:46:02.463 --> 00:46:07.643
Do you feel that your church work and your education work go hand in hand?

00:46:07.803 --> 00:46:11.663
And before you answer that, I have to acknowledge the fact that since you're

00:46:11.663 --> 00:46:13.903
a Concordia product, I grew up Lutheran.

00:46:14.003 --> 00:46:19.563
So I'm very familiar with Concordia and the excellent institutions that they've had. Yeah.

00:46:20.011 --> 00:46:23.231
They didn't offer me a scholarship, but, you know, it's still,

00:46:23.431 --> 00:46:26.151
you know, I'm very familiar with Concordia.

00:46:26.251 --> 00:46:29.951
So I know you have a solid background. So talk about how church,

00:46:30.151 --> 00:46:34.091
your church work and your education work synchronized.

00:46:34.431 --> 00:46:37.471
Well, really, I think it's a variety of different ways.

00:46:37.631 --> 00:46:42.711
You know, first, you know, I was, my mother brought us to church when I was five years old.

00:46:42.831 --> 00:46:46.551
And we were one of those families that, you know, it wasn't a question about

00:46:46.551 --> 00:46:48.891
whether you were going to church. You were born to church, right?

00:46:49.471 --> 00:46:52.831
So every Sunday morning, every Sunday night, every Tuesday night,

00:46:52.931 --> 00:46:54.971
every Friday night, we were at church.

00:46:55.191 --> 00:46:58.191
We had to lead the basketball court to go to church.

00:46:59.191 --> 00:47:05.471
But it did so much for me. And my mother really was the driving force behind my success.

00:47:05.691 --> 00:47:09.971
She saw things in me that I didn't see in myself. She challenged me.

00:47:10.131 --> 00:47:14.871
She sent me to a Catholic school when I was in high school and a Lutheran school

00:47:14.871 --> 00:47:20.631
when I was in grade school because she wanted me to be more challenged. and sacrifice for me.

00:47:20.811 --> 00:47:27.791
So I'm forever grateful she just passed away recently and it's a big loss, but.

00:47:28.509 --> 00:47:31.789
You know, I will never forget a foundation she laid.

00:47:32.309 --> 00:47:36.089
And, you know, part of that foundation was she brought me to the place where

00:47:36.089 --> 00:47:37.849
I could have a relationship with God.

00:47:38.109 --> 00:47:42.829
And it's that relationship that I think helps me to look at things a little

00:47:42.829 --> 00:47:46.069
bit differently and to say, look, there's hope.

00:47:46.369 --> 00:47:50.529
There's opportunity that, you know, no matter where you came from,

00:47:50.709 --> 00:47:54.689
you can be great because you were touched with hands and have miracles in them.

00:47:54.829 --> 00:47:56.349
And I really believe that for our

00:47:56.349 --> 00:47:59.889
students. I believe that for the city of Chicago, we can change things.

00:48:00.089 --> 00:48:04.049
We have to change our mindset first. And we got to believe what God believes

00:48:04.049 --> 00:48:06.969
about us. And I think a lot of people don't believe that.

00:48:07.169 --> 00:48:12.089
I mean, you look at the thing that you did and you look at the things that you

00:48:12.089 --> 00:48:16.989
know are not right, that you participate in, and a lot of people judge themselves

00:48:16.989 --> 00:48:21.269
based on those things and say, hey, I can't be this or I can't do that.

00:48:21.269 --> 00:48:26.529
Or even think about, I grew up on the west side, or I grew up on the south side,

00:48:26.589 --> 00:48:30.129
or I grew up in this area, or that area, or these parents, or whatever.

00:48:30.389 --> 00:48:36.509
All these different things that they say are indicative of their ability to

00:48:36.509 --> 00:48:38.089
succeed, and it's really not true.

00:48:38.549 --> 00:48:40.349
You can do anything.

00:48:41.129 --> 00:48:46.249
Everybody has the ability to be great, but you have to remove those obstacles and those barriers.

00:48:47.029 --> 00:48:52.389
And that's what I think God has given me is an insight to be able to see those

00:48:52.389 --> 00:48:56.009
things and to say to students, you can make it, you're going to make it.

00:48:56.249 --> 00:48:59.769
And then to kind of start moving things out of the way,

00:49:00.189 --> 00:49:05.549
even when there are obstacles or people who really don't want to change,

00:49:05.549 --> 00:49:10.369
I've had the ability to figure out a way to get them to change because it's

00:49:10.369 --> 00:49:11.749
in the best interest of students.

00:49:12.509 --> 00:49:19.649
Yeah. Well, my condolences about your mom. I definitely understand that. My mom passed in 2013.

00:49:20.409 --> 00:49:26.029
So, you know, it never, it's always tough, but, you know,

00:49:26.754 --> 00:49:31.854
The children are the legacy and you've been I've never met your mom,

00:49:31.954 --> 00:49:34.194
but I can tell what legacy she left with you.

00:49:34.534 --> 00:49:39.174
Why do prominently black colleges and universities matter?

00:49:39.314 --> 00:49:43.814
And the reason why I ask you that is because Malcolm X College is not listed

00:49:43.814 --> 00:49:48.194
as a historically black college, but it is predominantly black.

00:49:48.714 --> 00:49:55.594
So, yeah, just talk about why do do the predominantly black institutions matter?

00:49:55.594 --> 00:50:02.274
I think it's important because of the culture and the heritage that's necessary

00:50:02.274 --> 00:50:08.074
for, you know, African-American students to understand who they are.

00:50:08.614 --> 00:50:13.854
You know, I sometimes my wife and I talk about this is that, you know,

00:50:14.054 --> 00:50:23.414
I believe in who I am because through God, I was able to understand the greatness

00:50:23.414 --> 00:50:27.274
that lies in me. that he planted, right?

00:50:27.674 --> 00:50:31.634
And so I got to a point where you couldn't punk me.

00:50:31.794 --> 00:50:36.394
You couldn't tell me something different about me that I would believe.

00:50:36.554 --> 00:50:40.174
And you couldn't say to me, oh, you're going to fail. Well, I don't believe that.

00:50:40.394 --> 00:50:43.874
You couldn't say to me, I can't achieve this. Well, I don't believe that.

00:50:44.674 --> 00:50:52.254
So I rose to a level and it took time and it took belief and understanding and

00:50:52.254 --> 00:50:59.294
I had to see myself, but I got to a point where I don't believe there's anything I can't do.

00:50:59.474 --> 00:51:01.774
If God brings it to me, I can do it.

00:51:02.374 --> 00:51:04.074
A lot of our young people don't.

00:51:04.383 --> 00:51:08.043
Have that same ability, but they don't believe it yet.

00:51:08.403 --> 00:51:13.943
They don't because they've been conditioned to believe, oh, you came from,

00:51:14.143 --> 00:51:16.183
you went to this school and that's a bad school.

00:51:16.363 --> 00:51:19.123
You didn't get these resources. You didn't get that.

00:51:19.503 --> 00:51:23.863
You know, your parents were not together, so you can't be great.

00:51:24.103 --> 00:51:30.043
Oh, you know, you, you know, you're black and so, or, you know,

00:51:30.123 --> 00:51:34.883
you're Hispanic or, you You know, you shouldn't be able to be great.

00:51:35.103 --> 00:51:37.343
That is all ridiculous.

00:51:37.863 --> 00:51:41.543
It absolutely has no truth to it whatsoever.

00:51:42.143 --> 00:51:48.283
Because of the hands that made us, that created us, we have the ability to do anything.

00:51:48.343 --> 00:51:51.563
So we focus on identity attainment.

00:51:51.843 --> 00:51:56.043
That's why we started our study abroad program, because we wanted to take students

00:51:56.043 --> 00:52:00.603
back to the homeland, to where they came from. Now, we didn't just,

00:52:00.603 --> 00:52:04.103
you know, put them on a plane and take them back.

00:52:04.343 --> 00:52:10.243
We gave them, we used 23andMe so that they could see their DNA,

00:52:10.643 --> 00:52:16.583
where they came from, and then we matched them up with the tribes in the regions

00:52:16.583 --> 00:52:21.623
that they came from so they could understand, why do I have rhythm?

00:52:21.783 --> 00:52:25.503
Why am I musically inclined? Why can I dance?

00:52:25.683 --> 00:52:32.423
Why do I think the way I do? It is all purposeful and it has a reason.

00:52:32.783 --> 00:52:37.323
And so when we went back and the students, I wish I could read some of the letters

00:52:37.323 --> 00:52:40.783
that they gave to us. They said, it's amazing.

00:52:40.983 --> 00:52:46.503
The impacts on their lives and how they see themselves now is totally different

00:52:46.503 --> 00:52:51.143
than what they did before because now they know who they are.

00:52:51.303 --> 00:52:55.603
And I believe once you know who you are, greatness is next.

00:52:56.272 --> 00:53:02.332
Yeah, that's that's very innovative to to to to make them have that connection

00:53:02.332 --> 00:53:03.932
like that, because a lot of students,

00:53:04.252 --> 00:53:10.392
you know, when I was in college, it wasn't really accessible or attainable to

00:53:10.392 --> 00:53:12.132
do any kind of studying abroad.

00:53:12.772 --> 00:53:17.492
Not at the black schools primarily, but at the white schools, you could.

00:53:17.972 --> 00:53:23.852
But to target it that way, I think that's very refreshing to know that y'all

00:53:23.852 --> 00:53:27.912
are doing that and being that detail-oriented and making that happen.

00:53:28.512 --> 00:53:33.012
Why do you see, what do you see, I'm sorry, as the biggest challenge to the

00:53:33.012 --> 00:53:37.312
sustainability of these institutions and what can be done to fix that?

00:53:37.912 --> 00:53:43.992
You know, funding is huge. You know, HBCUs serve a tremendous purpose in this

00:53:43.992 --> 00:53:49.632
country and can be the foundation for success for so many students.

00:53:49.992 --> 00:53:55.512
But if they're ill-funded, you know, it kind of reminds me of,

00:53:55.652 --> 00:53:58.112
you know, our situation here in Chicago.

00:53:58.392 --> 00:54:04.972
And my wife, you know, worked at Chicago Pope Schools for nearly 34 years.

00:54:05.152 --> 00:54:09.332
And we would have this conversation. I'd say I do. This was at a school yesterday.

00:54:09.672 --> 00:54:14.972
And do y'all invest in those schools? Because, you know, I'm seeing things that

00:54:14.972 --> 00:54:16.252
I don't think should be there.

00:54:16.852 --> 00:54:21.812
And, you know, one of the reasons why we built and invested in Malcolm X,

00:54:22.112 --> 00:54:26.792
the amount of money we did, a quarter of a billion dollars, is we wanted to

00:54:26.792 --> 00:54:29.332
not just capture their intellect.

00:54:29.332 --> 00:54:33.792
We wanted to capture their mind and their soul.

00:54:33.952 --> 00:54:38.132
We wanted them to be proud of the institution they were coming to.

00:54:38.332 --> 00:54:44.872
We wanted them to be saying, hey, you see my school? You see where I go to school at?

00:54:45.632 --> 00:54:52.112
And it wasn't just the infrastructure, just nice floors and stuff. We have.

00:54:52.924 --> 00:55:01.064
Equipment and innovative programs that no one else has in the city of Chicago.

00:55:01.084 --> 00:55:02.664
And it's pretty amazing.

00:55:02.964 --> 00:55:07.564
And so it gives students an opportunity to do things that they never would have

00:55:07.564 --> 00:55:12.584
been able to do before or to operate on systems that they never would have been able to operate in.

00:55:12.704 --> 00:55:17.224
We work with the University of Chicago. We work with Northwestern University.

00:55:17.264 --> 00:55:19.024
We work with DePaul University.

00:55:19.324 --> 00:55:22.564
We work with Loyola. We work with UIC.

00:55:22.904 --> 00:55:26.844
We work with all of these institutions on research projects.

00:55:27.044 --> 00:55:30.864
And people are like, research problems? At a community college? Absolutely.

00:55:31.144 --> 00:55:34.804
Because my students can do anything. There's nothing they can't do.

00:55:35.084 --> 00:55:44.784
So I think it's important that your institutions of higher learning like Morehouse

00:55:44.784 --> 00:55:53.724
and Clark Atlanta University All of them have the resources to give, you know,

00:55:53.924 --> 00:56:01.124
state-of-the-art facilities and opportunities for these students who could be the next, you know,

00:56:02.304 --> 00:56:07.784
president of the United States or, you know, they can be whatever they want to be.

00:56:07.944 --> 00:56:12.984
I think it's vitally important that we show them that we believe in them by

00:56:12.984 --> 00:56:14.564
the investments we make in them.

00:56:15.964 --> 00:56:21.324
What are the pros and cons of being a government-funded PBCU?

00:56:22.100 --> 00:56:31.680
Well, I think the pros are that there are resources and typically those resources

00:56:31.680 --> 00:56:36.760
are pretty static and that they're there.

00:56:37.580 --> 00:56:44.480
But that also is a con because, you know, if you're publicly funded as we are

00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:46.900
and you have to go back to the taxpayers,

00:56:47.460 --> 00:56:54.400
you know, that means that there could be some limitations on the things that you're able to do.

00:56:54.400 --> 00:56:58.020
And, you know, you have to be cognizant of that.

00:56:58.160 --> 00:57:04.000
And that's not a criticism, you know, John being taxpayer.

00:57:04.420 --> 00:57:08.040
It's really the fact that, you know, there's some limitations.

00:57:08.540 --> 00:57:11.380
You can't expect people to pay what they don't have.

00:57:12.080 --> 00:57:17.460
And so it kind of puts us in a box. what we've done is really kind of focused

00:57:17.460 --> 00:57:22.400
on, you know, where can we give resources that's going to help us to achieve our objectives?

00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:28.620
Malcolm X is grown to be the number one community college in the city of Chicago, by far, right?

00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:34.560
And we have students, you know, that are coming from all segments of our society,

00:57:34.740 --> 00:57:38.880
but they're led, believe this or not, by African-American males.

00:57:39.880 --> 00:57:44.000
We are, at the last report that I had, which was about a couple of weeks ago,

00:57:44.220 --> 00:57:48.420
we were 91% up on African-American male students.

00:57:48.540 --> 00:57:51.020
So they're coming in droves to our college.

00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:57.000
We got to have resources for that. And so we focus on grants,

00:57:57.420 --> 00:58:02.160
philanthropic dollars, and how can we get more dollars into our institution

00:58:02.160 --> 00:58:05.860
to provide the resources necessary for our students.

00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:11.060
Those include mental health services, student services, food, housing.

00:58:12.108 --> 00:58:17.508
We have tutoring services, all of the computers, all of that is necessary.

00:58:17.928 --> 00:58:22.108
And, you know, once they get those things and we immerse them in,

00:58:22.268 --> 00:58:26.368
you know, the practice and the knowledge base, it helps.

00:58:27.248 --> 00:58:34.028
It's like a flower opening up and you see the beauty of these students who are

00:58:34.028 --> 00:58:35.788
absolutely wonderful and amazing.

00:58:36.428 --> 00:58:42.748
So, you know, we get it, we understand, but it is a challenge. Yeah.

00:58:43.188 --> 00:58:50.128
So is it realistic to see alumni building an endowment that minimizes your dependent on government funding?

00:58:50.428 --> 00:58:55.348
Oh, yes, we need that. We need alumni from all over the country.

00:58:55.628 --> 00:58:59.968
Come on, help us out. You know, if you got millions of dollars,

00:59:00.148 --> 00:59:02.148
send it. If you got one dollar, send it.

00:59:02.428 --> 00:59:06.788
Whatever it is, because, you know, we invested back in our students and,

00:59:07.348 --> 00:59:11.388
you know, I'm very prudent about our management of money. Malcolm X has always

00:59:11.388 --> 00:59:16.828
had money, and we continue to have money, and we figure out a way to make things work.

00:59:17.028 --> 00:59:20.328
So, you know, I want people to know that we're good stewards.

00:59:20.488 --> 00:59:27.728
We don't waste money. I'm a stickler about that. But we also want to invest in the students.

00:59:27.988 --> 00:59:33.128
You know, I think people need to understand that when you have a child that's,

00:59:33.651 --> 00:59:39.051
That's the hope for tomorrow. My daughter is incredible.

00:59:39.411 --> 00:59:43.711
Some of the stuff that comes out of her mouth, I'm like, where does she get all that?

00:59:44.271 --> 00:59:47.811
And it's just amazing to watch them.

00:59:47.811 --> 00:59:52.591
You know, when I was younger, I had my kids, kids when I was really,

00:59:52.751 --> 00:59:59.251
really young, and, you know, you're poor, and so you kind of miss some of these milestones.

00:59:59.891 --> 01:00:04.051
These significant markers in their lives where they're changing,

01:00:04.051 --> 01:00:07.051
they're transitioning to new places, right?

01:00:07.051 --> 01:00:13.651
But, you know, I had my youngest daughter later on in life and I was able to

01:00:13.651 --> 01:00:20.571
see all of these different transitions and changes that were magnificent that I was like.

01:00:21.271 --> 01:00:23.311
God, I don't know if I did that.

01:00:23.431 --> 01:00:26.351
You did that because it's incredible.

01:00:26.791 --> 01:00:31.891
Well, all of our students have the ability to do that. All of our kids have that.

01:00:32.191 --> 01:00:39.711
And we got to invest in them. We got to give them opportunities and resources and challenge them.

01:00:39.851 --> 01:00:45.131
And you can get the best out of them when you present them with opportunities

01:00:45.131 --> 01:00:46.411
that they've never had before.

01:00:47.011 --> 01:00:52.151
Yeah. Because the reason why I ask is I was a legislator at one time in Mississippi.

01:00:52.151 --> 01:00:58.771
And what really got me into endowments was the fact that I'm voting for the

01:00:58.771 --> 01:01:02.371
budget for the University of Mississippi, and they're only getting 30 percent

01:01:02.371 --> 01:01:06.091
of their budget from us, from the state.

01:01:06.371 --> 01:01:10.811
And then I look at my alma mater, Jackson State, and they were getting 70 percent.

01:01:11.311 --> 01:01:15.911
And so I was asking, why is that the difference? And it says based on the endowments.

01:01:15.911 --> 01:01:18.131
And so that's when I started paying attention to that.

01:01:18.251 --> 01:01:25.031
And I was like going, that seems like that's the key that we need to get to get the alumni.

01:01:25.451 --> 01:01:28.171
And, you know, historically, black colleges, predominantly black,

01:01:28.291 --> 01:01:31.831
whatever title you want to put on them, black schools, you know,

01:01:32.251 --> 01:01:36.671
historically did not produce the majors that generated a lot of wealth.

01:01:36.671 --> 01:01:41.671
A lot of them started off as what we call normal schools. So those were teacher colleges.

01:01:42.611 --> 01:01:45.871
And, you know, teachers don't make a whole lot of money. And,

01:01:46.011 --> 01:01:52.231
you know, so as time has progressed, you know, if we didn't have a school with

01:01:52.231 --> 01:01:56.311
a legendary athletic program, right, you know, you're not going to get the athletes

01:01:56.311 --> 01:01:57.551
that's making a whole lot of money.

01:01:57.551 --> 01:02:02.151
So, you know, now that they're starting to get into medicine and engineering

01:02:02.151 --> 01:02:06.811
and all that stuff and becoming more comprehensive, you know,

01:02:07.011 --> 01:02:08.371
there are some more opportunities.

01:02:08.371 --> 01:02:13.051
But I just wanted to stress that, you know, because it's very,

01:02:13.211 --> 01:02:20.651
very important in my mind that that the black schools focus on building those endowments.

01:02:21.399 --> 01:02:27.199
Absolutely. And this is the reason why, you know, the wealth gap is so important, right?

01:02:27.339 --> 01:02:30.739
Because, you know, you can't give what you don't have.

01:02:31.559 --> 01:02:35.879
And, you know, wealth was taken away from African Americans.

01:02:36.159 --> 01:02:41.199
So, you know, that is critically important for there to be this right sizing

01:02:41.199 --> 01:02:44.279
so that we can have the resources that's necessary.

01:02:44.279 --> 01:02:49.059
And they can give back to institutions like Malcolm X that, you know,

01:02:49.139 --> 01:02:52.379
is going to drive student growth and development and success,

01:02:52.379 --> 01:02:55.419
I think is critical. So I'm with you.

01:02:55.679 --> 01:02:58.299
Come on, alumni, bring it on, bring it on.

01:02:58.799 --> 01:03:04.419
All right. So what are the unique features and challenges of being,

01:03:04.579 --> 01:03:11.379
well, a black college in Chicago as compared to other places?

01:03:11.599 --> 01:03:14.919
You know, like I said, I went to Jackson State. So you're down in the South.

01:03:15.659 --> 01:03:18.839
Mississippi is the poorest state in the nation. But, you know,

01:03:18.959 --> 01:03:22.059
there's there's certain cultural things and unique things.

01:03:22.619 --> 01:03:26.979
It's like big football is huge, right? Some of the older black colleges,

01:03:27.199 --> 01:03:28.279
that's part of the culture.

01:03:28.519 --> 01:03:33.079
But what is it about a school in Chicago? Because Chicago State falls under that, too.

01:03:33.479 --> 01:03:38.719
And I guess the other city colleges as well. But what what is it about Chicago

01:03:38.719 --> 01:03:40.959
that makes it unique and then also a challenge?

01:03:41.559 --> 01:03:45.479
Well, I think there's a couple of things that I would point out.

01:03:45.579 --> 01:03:50.479
But first of all, I want to say that we're, yes, we're dedicated to African-American

01:03:50.479 --> 01:03:54.819
students and we have, you know, over 40% of our students are African-American.

01:03:55.019 --> 01:04:00.279
We also have over 40% of our students are Hispanic and we have about 10%,

01:04:00.279 --> 01:04:05.279
close to 10% white and then 6% Asian. So we're very, very diverse.

01:04:05.939 --> 01:04:11.399
And each of those groups have different needs So that's a challenge.

01:04:11.999 --> 01:04:18.439
And, you know, I think we work very hard to try to meet every need of every

01:04:18.439 --> 01:04:22.919
student. It's not to say that we can meet every need.

01:04:23.079 --> 01:04:27.379
I'm working on housing right now because I have to kind of farm that out to

01:04:27.379 --> 01:04:31.679
the community because I don't have housing on campus. But,

01:04:32.193 --> 01:04:36.473
But it is something that we are focused on and that we're trying to provide

01:04:36.473 --> 01:04:38.653
for every student to ensure their success.

01:04:38.873 --> 01:04:43.593
So that's a challenge. It also is a challenge because, you know,

01:04:43.713 --> 01:04:46.833
in the city of Chicago, you know, there's a culture.

01:04:47.393 --> 01:04:52.553
And, you know, again, you know, there is resources that are divided,

01:04:52.853 --> 01:05:00.233
you know, by the various segments of, you know, our our city, our wards.

01:05:00.813 --> 01:05:06.033
And, you know, you got the rich and, or you got the haves and you got the have-nots.

01:05:06.473 --> 01:05:12.633
That's a challenge, right? Because you've got a student who really has the ability

01:05:12.633 --> 01:05:13.493
to do these great things.

01:05:13.573 --> 01:05:16.993
And of course, I talked about this before, but they didn't get the resources

01:05:16.993 --> 01:05:20.913
that someone else got. So they have a deficit, right?

01:05:21.353 --> 01:05:29.233
So, you know, we worked hard to eliminate perspectives about those students, right?

01:05:29.473 --> 01:05:34.633
Because, you know, our faculty and our staff will be like, but president, they're not ready.

01:05:35.653 --> 01:05:39.473
And, you know, what I said to them, because, you know, and this,

01:05:39.673 --> 01:05:44.333
again, another area where my faith has helped me out, I began to pray about

01:05:44.333 --> 01:05:49.493
it and say, what do we need to do to get everybody on the same page?

01:05:49.933 --> 01:05:54.253
And I came back to them, I said, what if that was your child? What would you do?

01:05:54.693 --> 01:05:59.553
If that was your child, would you advocate for that child?

01:05:59.793 --> 01:06:03.973
If that was your child, would you demand that they had X, Y, Z?

01:06:04.213 --> 01:06:09.253
If that was your child, would you go every day to ensure they got what they

01:06:09.253 --> 01:06:10.233
needed to be successful?

01:06:10.453 --> 01:06:15.253
And they said, yes. I said, so if you do it for your child, we got to do it for these children.

01:06:15.513 --> 01:06:19.773
So every single children, we've got to provide the resources,

01:06:19.773 --> 01:06:22.593
the support that they need in order for them to be successful.

01:06:22.793 --> 01:06:28.613
And that's a challenge, right? But it's one I boldly take on and say,

01:06:28.813 --> 01:06:33.493
we're going to win because the students are seeing it. They know we believe in them.

01:06:33.813 --> 01:06:36.293
And that's why they're coming in droves to Malcolm X.

01:06:36.733 --> 01:06:44.233
I mean, our enrollment over the past three years is up nearly 6,000 students.

01:06:44.233 --> 01:06:45.613
I mean, it's just incredible.

01:06:46.373 --> 01:06:50.153
But it's because they believe that we believe.

01:06:50.413 --> 01:06:54.053
They believe we're going to give them everything necessary for them to be successful.

01:06:54.293 --> 01:06:56.073
And we're committed to that.

01:06:56.353 --> 01:07:02.793
And so I love the fact that we have these challenges because it just means that,

01:07:02.793 --> 01:07:07.213
you know, the God said, you know, he wouldn't put more on us than we can bear.

01:07:07.333 --> 01:07:10.753
So he's saying you can bear it and we're going to bear it and we're going to

01:07:10.753 --> 01:07:13.573
conquer it and we're going to keep moving forward. Yeah.

01:07:14.133 --> 01:07:18.013
All right. So you kind of touched on it a little bit in the beginning,

01:07:18.013 --> 01:07:24.613
but what is your biggest concern in this political climate concerning PBCUs?

01:07:25.388 --> 01:07:31.588
You know, I think, you know, these lawmakers have lost their minds and they've

01:07:31.588 --> 01:07:33.068
lost their way, you know,

01:07:33.348 --> 01:07:40.268
to preserve a tax cut for the rich and to take it away from the poor,

01:07:40.488 --> 01:07:41.748
to take it away from students,

01:07:41.988 --> 01:07:51.568
to take it away from communities and not address the fundamental needs of our people is outrageous.

01:07:51.568 --> 01:07:55.988
And we've got to stand up and let our voices be heard.

01:07:56.288 --> 01:07:59.328
And you let your voices be heard at the ballot box.

01:07:59.508 --> 01:08:03.848
That's the reason why they're willing to do these things because people are

01:08:03.848 --> 01:08:06.228
not letting their voices be heard at the ballot box.

01:08:06.388 --> 01:08:13.708
When you have only 30%, maybe 38% max, right, who are voting in an election.

01:08:14.488 --> 01:08:17.808
African-American people voting in an election,

01:08:17.808 --> 01:08:24.348
38% of registered voters Come on guys We got to do better than that We have

01:08:24.348 --> 01:08:29.248
to look at our situation and say This is unacceptable And let our voices be

01:08:29.248 --> 01:08:36.628
heard And let candidates That are going to fight for us That are going to go to Washington Yes,

01:08:36.748 --> 01:08:42.508
I know Illinois is a democratic state But this has got to happen All across the country, right?

01:08:42.948 --> 01:08:52.808
And that's when you're going to get change And I, you know, I don't want us to demonize folks.

01:08:53.368 --> 01:08:57.308
You know, violence begets violence. That's not the approach.

01:08:57.528 --> 01:09:02.188
That's not the way that we need to be doing that. But we do need to have conversations

01:09:02.188 --> 01:09:11.048
with folks and let them know that it's unacceptable to take food away from Head Start and, you know,

01:09:11.148 --> 01:09:13.908
resources from Head Start programs and stuff.

01:09:13.908 --> 01:09:19.988
It's unacceptable to make it difficult for students who are working and part-time

01:09:19.988 --> 01:09:27.188
to be able to go to school and have funding for them to complete their educational pursuits.

01:09:27.228 --> 01:09:34.308
It's unacceptable to take away resources and supports for families that are

01:09:34.308 --> 01:09:37.928
trying to make it living on the edge. It's unacceptable. book.

01:09:38.608 --> 01:09:43.928
And, you know, I'll end with this, that, you know, we got to realize that when

01:09:43.928 --> 01:09:47.488
you hurt someone, you didn't make yourself better.

01:09:47.948 --> 01:09:52.988
You hurt yourself. Because whether you call it karma or reaping and so on,

01:09:53.168 --> 01:09:55.688
what you put out is coming back your way.

01:09:55.968 --> 01:09:59.488
You're going to get all of that. If you throw out wickedness,

01:09:59.688 --> 01:10:03.728
wickedness is coming your way. You throw out evil, evil's coming your way.

01:10:03.908 --> 01:10:08.368
If you throw out hatred, hatred's coming your way. So tell me,

01:10:08.548 --> 01:10:12.888
how do you do these things and think you're going to be better?

01:10:13.604 --> 01:10:17.904
It's not going to be better. Yeah. As we say in the South, come on,

01:10:18.004 --> 01:10:21.244
lights, because the people ain't saying nothing. Come on, lights.

01:10:21.364 --> 01:10:22.864
You got to testify to that.

01:10:23.284 --> 01:10:26.764
So let me ask you this real quick. I know that the University of Illinois,

01:10:26.864 --> 01:10:31.184
Chicago, they have a board of trustees that people elect since you mentioned voting.

01:10:31.324 --> 01:10:36.444
Does the city colleges of Chicago have that same structure or are they appointed

01:10:36.444 --> 01:10:39.704
or do they even have a board of trustees for the city colleges?

01:10:39.704 --> 01:10:44.364
We have a board of trustees, but they are appointed by the mayor and the city council.

01:10:45.124 --> 01:10:49.864
OK, so so the voting message goes to vote for the right mayor and city council

01:10:49.864 --> 01:10:53.584
so you can keep people like Dr. Sanders in these jobs.

01:10:55.584 --> 01:11:00.664
All right. So give me give me your elevator pitch on why a potential student

01:11:00.664 --> 01:11:02.204
should attend Malcolm X College.

01:11:02.764 --> 01:11:06.504
Well, because we're committed to you and we believe in you. We believe in your

01:11:06.504 --> 01:11:09.764
potential. We believe in your future. we believe in your destiny.

01:11:10.184 --> 01:11:17.884
We know you can be successful. We know you can do what no other person can believe in you to do.

01:11:18.004 --> 01:11:21.864
We know you can do those things and you were destined to do it.

01:11:22.024 --> 01:11:24.384
You were designed to be great.

01:11:25.044 --> 01:11:29.664
God put his hands on you. He designed you to be great. So don't give up.

01:11:29.964 --> 01:11:31.664
Don't say what you can't do.

01:11:32.024 --> 01:11:36.604
Say you can. Come to us. We're going to cultivate you. We're going to motivate

01:11:36.604 --> 01:11:38.664
you. We're going to push you along.

01:11:38.844 --> 01:11:41.884
We're going to help you along the way. But at the end of the day,

01:11:42.064 --> 01:11:45.844
we want you to achieve the greatness that you were born to be.

01:11:46.024 --> 01:11:49.984
And we look forward to you coming and reaching your destiny.

01:11:50.804 --> 01:11:56.364
All right. So Dr. Sanders, if people want to get in touch with you and learn

01:11:56.364 --> 01:12:00.064
more about the college, you know, pick your brain some more, Or how can they do that?

01:12:00.804 --> 01:12:05.324
Well, reach out to me at dsanders67 at ccc.edu.

01:12:05.944 --> 01:12:15.184
Or you can call us at 312-850-7000. And they will direct you to wherever department you need to go to.

01:12:15.404 --> 01:12:20.124
And if for some reason somebody doesn't pick up that phone, you contact me.

01:12:20.144 --> 01:12:22.084
And I'm going to figure out why they didn't pick up the phone.

01:12:22.424 --> 01:12:28.724
And the number of my office is 312-850-7031. want.

01:12:28.924 --> 01:12:32.884
We are committed to everybody in the city of Chicago and beyond,

01:12:32.884 --> 01:12:35.304
and we want you to be successful.

01:12:35.844 --> 01:12:40.664
Well, Dr. David A. Sanders, thank you so much for taking the time out to be on the podcast.

01:12:41.104 --> 01:12:45.504
I commend you for the leadership that you're doing. I did not realize you had been there that long.

01:12:46.084 --> 01:12:55.464
I had heard about you about five years ago, and to be able to connect with you and to get you on.

01:12:55.664 --> 01:12:58.824
I'm really, really honored that you did that. So thank you for that.

01:12:58.824 --> 01:13:00.544
Oh, thank you, sir. I appreciate it.

01:13:01.144 --> 01:13:03.164
All right, guys. We'll catch y'all on the other side.

01:13:07.120 --> 01:13:17.680
Music.

01:13:14.881 --> 01:13:19.061
All right, and we are back. So I want to thank my guests, Dr.

01:13:19.381 --> 01:13:25.281
Marybeth Gasman and Dr. David A. Sanders for coming on the program. You know, Dr.

01:13:25.481 --> 01:13:33.921
Gasman is an incredible resource as far as the history of black colleges and

01:13:33.921 --> 01:13:35.441
universities in the United States.

01:13:35.721 --> 01:13:39.461
As she said, she has been to all of them but two.

01:13:39.781 --> 01:13:44.461
And I didn't get a chance to really talk to her to find out which two she had not been to.

01:13:44.461 --> 01:13:53.061
But, you know, somebody who is not from the African-American community to not

01:13:53.061 --> 01:13:55.501
only make it her life's work,

01:13:55.681 --> 01:14:04.561
but her passion to explain the relevance and the significance and the importance of black colleges.

01:14:05.221 --> 01:14:09.241
It's one thing for those of us who are alumni to tout them.

01:14:09.781 --> 01:14:15.681
That's kind of our job, whether we do it vocally like I'm doing now or just

01:14:15.681 --> 01:14:19.381
by our actions and our levels of success. Right.

01:14:20.661 --> 01:14:25.481
So to have somebody outside of the community to be as dedicated and passionate

01:14:25.481 --> 01:14:28.841
about it is really, really amazing.

01:14:29.561 --> 01:14:34.661
And I'm really, really honored that she came on to share some of that passion with you all.

01:14:34.881 --> 01:14:38.541
And then, of course, to have somebody in the trenches like Dr. David A. Sanders.

01:14:38.761 --> 01:14:43.621
Now, if you listen to the intro, you realize that he hasn't officially got his

01:14:43.621 --> 01:14:47.501
doctorate yet, but, you know, he's a man of faith and so am I,

01:14:47.601 --> 01:14:49.021
so we're speaking it into existence.

01:14:51.481 --> 01:14:54.921
So I'm calling him Dr. Sanders from this point forward, but,

01:14:54.961 --> 01:15:03.081
you know, Malcolm X College, has, you know, existed, you know, throughout my life.

01:15:03.761 --> 01:15:08.781
And the reason why we use the term predominantly Black as opposed to historically

01:15:08.781 --> 01:15:12.141
Black for Malcolm X College is Malcolm X College actually started out,

01:15:12.341 --> 01:15:16.081
if those of you from Chicago, you remember Crane High School.

01:15:16.481 --> 01:15:22.361
Well, Malcolm X College was really a junior college extension of Crane High

01:15:22.361 --> 01:15:27.501
School, right, to try to guarantee success for those high school students that

01:15:27.501 --> 01:15:30.661
went there, at least they could stay in.

01:15:30.801 --> 01:15:34.181
If they couldn't get accepted to a college or couldn't afford it, they could stay.

01:15:34.501 --> 01:15:39.541
And then over time, you know, as the West side evolved.

01:15:40.657 --> 01:15:45.917
You know, it became Malcolm X College, and it's a part of the city colleges

01:15:45.917 --> 01:15:49.077
system in Chicago, which is, I think.

01:15:50.137 --> 01:15:54.257
One of the largest as far as enrollment goes or second largest,

01:15:54.557 --> 01:15:57.817
I'm sorry, behind, you know, California as far as enrollment,

01:15:58.197 --> 01:16:00.297
as far as community colleges go.

01:16:00.617 --> 01:16:04.777
I think it's second. It might have dropped down some, but it's one of the bigger

01:16:04.777 --> 01:16:08.637
community college networks in the country.

01:16:09.337 --> 01:16:13.797
And it's something that the city has been doing all my life.

01:16:14.737 --> 01:16:20.097
And so, you know, to actually get somebody who is a part of that system,

01:16:20.357 --> 01:16:25.957
but not only that, it's somebody that's dedicated to uplifting young black men and women,

01:16:26.637 --> 01:16:30.937
to get a foundation at an institution of higher learning.

01:16:31.117 --> 01:16:33.937
Like I said, it's a community college, so it's only a two-year degree,

01:16:34.117 --> 01:16:37.677
an associate's degree, but, you know, it opens the door.

01:16:37.677 --> 01:16:41.937
And as he stated in an interview, he's got connections with other four-year

01:16:41.937 --> 01:16:48.057
institutions, and that gives those students a foot in the door, but it also gives them,

01:16:48.317 --> 01:16:52.957
the community colleges gives them skills where it's like, you know,

01:16:53.077 --> 01:16:57.137
they can go right out the door and get a job, right? Right.

01:16:57.597 --> 01:17:02.717
Because in this day and age, you know, whether you're you have a high school

01:17:02.717 --> 01:17:06.237
diploma, whether you have an associate's degree, whether you have a bachelor's

01:17:06.237 --> 01:17:10.617
degree, when you make that decision, I want to get into the workforce.

01:17:11.357 --> 01:17:15.537
You're hoping that the education that you have received to that point will get

01:17:15.537 --> 01:17:18.657
you the job that you want or at least get your foot in the door.

01:17:19.555 --> 01:17:26.355
So that you can have some comfort and start building wealth until you get the

01:17:26.355 --> 01:17:29.135
job that you want, right? Because that's the key.

01:17:29.495 --> 01:17:33.895
In the Black community, it's about building wealth. And that's one of the challenges

01:17:33.895 --> 01:17:37.555
that these Black colleges and universities has is that historically,

01:17:37.955 --> 01:17:43.155
these schools were designed for positions that don't generate a whole lot of wealth.

01:17:43.155 --> 01:17:50.355
And so there's a disparity between the historically black colleges and universities

01:17:50.355 --> 01:17:56.755
and endowments compared to the predominantly white or historically white institutions, right?

01:17:57.095 --> 01:18:01.135
I think Dr. Gasman used majority institutions.

01:18:01.555 --> 01:18:06.895
Either way, it's always been a challenge.

01:18:07.495 --> 01:18:14.435
But these schools have survived. My institution was a private school,

01:18:15.215 --> 01:18:17.595
Jackson State. It was a private school at one point.

01:18:17.795 --> 01:18:22.655
And then right around, I think it was around the Great Depression.

01:18:23.655 --> 01:18:27.315
It may have been, you know, I think it weathered that storm.

01:18:27.315 --> 01:18:33.335
But right around the start of World War II, I believe, that's when Jackson State

01:18:33.335 --> 01:18:35.155
became a state institution.

01:18:35.795 --> 01:18:40.415
And that was a decision that had to be made. There was a president there,

01:18:40.575 --> 01:18:43.235
I think his name was Jacob Reddix, who made that call.

01:18:43.915 --> 01:18:47.815
And Jackson State has been part of the institutions of higher learning in the

01:18:47.815 --> 01:18:48.975
state of Mississippi ever since.

01:18:49.535 --> 01:18:53.555
And so, you know, there's a challenge with that, right? There's a challenge

01:18:53.555 --> 01:18:59.775
as far as making sure that the state provides money for the school to do what it needs to do.

01:19:00.095 --> 01:19:07.695
As Dr. Gasman mentioned and President Sanders reiterated, a lot of the income is tuition based.

01:19:08.780 --> 01:19:14.600
Which, you know, puts a heavy burden on those institutions to try to stay affordable,

01:19:14.600 --> 01:19:20.800
but yet maintain the quality of education needed so that the young men and women

01:19:20.800 --> 01:19:25.080
that show up there can get a foot in the door, right?

01:19:25.360 --> 01:19:28.320
Whether it's to work for somebody or to work for themselves.

01:19:28.960 --> 01:19:34.040
And so, you know, it's just all part of this big picture.

01:19:34.720 --> 01:19:36.440
And, you know, there was a number

01:19:36.440 --> 01:19:41.180
of things, you know, when I talked about last week about the budget,

01:19:41.680 --> 01:19:48.940
right, that we were talking about the, for example, the tax on overtime pay.

01:19:49.180 --> 01:19:50.920
I need to make a correction on that.

01:19:51.380 --> 01:19:56.380
There is a gap. There is a cutoff of $150,000 for both of them,

01:19:56.580 --> 01:20:02.380
right, the tax on tips and the tax on tax exemption on tips and tax exemption

01:20:02.380 --> 01:20:06.360
on overtime pay. $150,000 to cut off for both of them.

01:20:06.660 --> 01:20:13.460
I was right about the tips, which is $25,000 was the cutoff.

01:20:13.720 --> 01:20:21.020
But the cutoff for overtime pay is half of that. So $12,500.

01:20:21.820 --> 01:20:28.720
So if you make over $12,500 in overtime, then anything over that you have to pay taxes on.

01:20:28.960 --> 01:20:34.220
And then that does sunset on 2028.

01:20:34.980 --> 01:20:41.240
So, you know, you got about three years of that, give or take,

01:20:41.540 --> 01:20:43.300
maybe two and a half, be honest.

01:20:43.640 --> 01:20:46.880
But yeah, so I wanted to get that out,

01:20:47.080 --> 01:20:50.260
you know, a correction, but it ties in And what I'm saying is that,

01:20:50.460 --> 01:20:58.240
you know, a lot of folks are working jobs that have attended these historical

01:20:58.240 --> 01:21:04.420
and predominantly black institutions that, you know, they while they're in school.

01:21:04.720 --> 01:21:09.740
Right. They might work a job where they rely on tips or, you know,

01:21:09.840 --> 01:21:11.780
they might need overtime or whatever.

01:21:13.540 --> 01:21:20.120
So, you know, but those jobs don't pay the kind of money that would lead to

01:21:20.120 --> 01:21:24.580
folks building the endowments of the institutions they went to.

01:21:26.040 --> 01:21:32.080
So, you know, the key is to build black wealth.

01:21:33.230 --> 01:21:38.030
Because building black wealth has a domino effect, right?

01:21:38.530 --> 01:21:45.230
That in the black community, the more wealth we gain, the more support our institutions

01:21:45.230 --> 01:21:51.730
of higher learning will have, the more support other organizations in the community will have,

01:21:52.150 --> 01:21:54.450
churches, what have you, everything.

01:21:55.130 --> 01:22:02.250
Black businesses, all that stuff. So, you know, that's where we are.

01:22:02.250 --> 01:22:07.170
And that's that's our political journey at this point. That's where we're trying to get to.

01:22:07.510 --> 01:22:13.010
So I'm really glad that those two individuals came on to talk about that and

01:22:13.010 --> 01:22:18.110
just to continue to accentuate the fact that we need to have these institutions

01:22:18.110 --> 01:22:25.350
viable so that we can attain our goal in building wealth in the black community.

01:22:25.350 --> 01:22:31.630
Now, it's going to be hard with the mindset of the people that's affiliated

01:22:31.630 --> 01:22:38.570
with the Republican Party as it is constituted now, because they really don't even want us here,

01:22:38.730 --> 01:22:41.430
let alone assist us in building wealth.

01:22:41.430 --> 01:22:46.790
And this bill, which I did not mention last week, is the biggest transfer of

01:22:46.790 --> 01:22:53.170
wealth from poor to rich in the history of this nation.

01:22:53.330 --> 01:23:03.150
Even in the Gilded Age, there wasn't a piece of legislation that altered wealth like this bill did.

01:23:04.450 --> 01:23:11.310
And, you know, you're going to give the wealthiest people tax breaks and then

01:23:11.310 --> 01:23:14.270
cut services for people that are in need.

01:23:16.486 --> 01:23:21.466
All that translates into a shift of wealth, right?

01:23:21.946 --> 01:23:26.566
And, you know, people have criticized those of us on the Democratic side of

01:23:26.566 --> 01:23:31.106
the aisle and saying, oh, you want to transfer wealth, oh, you want to share

01:23:31.106 --> 01:23:33.006
wealth, and blah, blah, this and the other.

01:23:33.506 --> 01:23:37.266
Well, it's pretty obvious that the other side doesn't want to do it.

01:23:37.366 --> 01:23:40.306
As a matter of fact, they want to make the wealth gap bigger.

01:23:41.106 --> 01:23:46.946
And in cities like Atlanta, where I'm residing now, that's a terrible thing

01:23:46.946 --> 01:23:53.206
because Atlanta has the largest wealth gap of any city in the nation, believe it or not.

01:23:53.806 --> 01:23:58.986
And so, you know, in cities like Chicago and cities like New York and cities

01:23:58.986 --> 01:24:06.206
like Washington and cities like L.A., Houston, whatever, that's not a good thing to widen the gap.

01:24:06.626 --> 01:24:11.046
If anything, you want to close the gap. That's what we need to get to.

01:24:11.506 --> 01:24:17.766
Now, again, I'm not against capitalism, but I want capitalism done right.

01:24:17.766 --> 01:24:23.026
If every nation, industrialized nation in the world has universal health care,

01:24:23.206 --> 01:24:25.926
why not the wealthiest one, right?

01:24:26.526 --> 01:24:31.866
Why are we making people pay to live?

01:24:32.686 --> 01:24:36.906
I mean, let's just break it down. We're making people pay to live.

01:24:37.086 --> 01:24:41.346
You got to pay to go to the doctor, even if you're just doing your annual physical.

01:24:41.826 --> 01:24:45.946
You got to pay for it. When you go to your eye exam, you got to pay for that.

01:24:45.946 --> 01:24:50.266
When you go to, you know, the dentist, you got to pay for that.

01:24:50.626 --> 01:24:56.206
In other countries, you don't have to do that. That's one less thing you have to worry about, right?

01:24:57.046 --> 01:25:00.246
Why is that a crazy concept?

01:25:01.046 --> 01:25:05.226
It's because we do capitalism wrong in the United States. That's why.

01:25:05.946 --> 01:25:09.026
Nobody is saying we don't want folks to make money.

01:25:09.846 --> 01:25:13.346
But at the same time, we don't want to be greedy.

01:25:14.466 --> 01:25:17.746
Well, most of us don't want to be greedy. There's some people that do.

01:25:18.166 --> 01:25:22.546
And they seem to have a political party that caters to that, right?

01:25:22.986 --> 01:25:30.066
They want to stoke up fears amongst poor people to guarantee that they get elected

01:25:30.066 --> 01:25:32.546
to cater to the rich people.

01:25:33.806 --> 01:25:38.826
That's not right. I would say evil. I know a lot of people don't like to do

01:25:38.826 --> 01:25:48.206
that, but that's antithetical to the Christian teaching that you claim drives your politics.

01:25:48.786 --> 01:25:53.666
You know, I've literally heard politicians say, well, I make this decision based on the Bible.

01:25:54.146 --> 01:26:03.066
Well, how can you say that when your political philosophy is to make the wealthy wealthier?

01:26:04.612 --> 01:26:09.652
There's nothing in the Bible that says that. Nothing. It's, as a matter of fact, the opposite.

01:26:10.432 --> 01:26:13.652
It's to take care of those who need assistance.

01:26:14.692 --> 01:26:20.432
And the key word is assistance, because if you help me, then once I can get

01:26:20.432 --> 01:26:22.692
to a level where I can sustain myself.

01:26:23.612 --> 01:26:27.952
Most people that are on assistance don't want to be on it. I know there's some

01:26:27.952 --> 01:26:30.532
people that's like, well, you know, there's been a culture and all that stuff.

01:26:31.252 --> 01:26:36.532
There are folks in Mississippi I knew that refused to get on assistance that

01:26:36.532 --> 01:26:40.892
would qualify for it because they were too proud to ask for that kind of help.

01:26:41.472 --> 01:26:45.012
They said, well, we're going to do the best we can. And I'm not just talking

01:26:45.012 --> 01:26:48.992
about the poor white folks. I'm talking about black folks. They didn't want that assistance.

01:26:50.012 --> 01:26:53.772
But we wanted it to be there for them if they changed their mind,

01:26:53.792 --> 01:26:56.732
if they did need that hand up, right?

01:26:56.732 --> 01:27:04.352
But to systematically take it away, because you have this incredible misguided

01:27:04.352 --> 01:27:09.812
notion that people that ask for government assistance are lazy people, right?

01:27:10.092 --> 01:27:17.392
The whole culture of African Americans in this nation is the fact that you brought us here to work.

01:27:17.792 --> 01:27:23.952
That's all we've been doing. We built a nation, literally, right?

01:27:25.212 --> 01:27:28.932
You know, the Latino community, right?

01:27:29.172 --> 01:27:35.132
Those people that are immigrating, they're not immigrating just to vacation. They're working.

01:27:35.732 --> 01:27:41.092
If you don't believe me, ask the folks in the agriculture industry in California

01:27:41.092 --> 01:27:43.232
and Florida and see how that's working out for them.

01:27:43.672 --> 01:27:49.872
Now that you've created this aura of fear that you don't want these people to

01:27:49.872 --> 01:27:55.772
be here, right? And there's agricultural products that are rotting, right?

01:27:56.252 --> 01:28:00.212
The excess food that we had, we were giving to other countries,

01:28:00.212 --> 01:28:04.332
but you shut down the program that allowed that food to leave,

01:28:04.672 --> 01:28:07.772
again, hurting the agricultural community, right?

01:28:08.870 --> 01:28:16.390
So, you know, I mean, every group of people that have come to the United States

01:28:16.390 --> 01:28:18.750
has contributed to the growth of the United States.

01:28:19.390 --> 01:28:23.890
Everyone. If you want to break it down as far as whether the English do,

01:28:24.070 --> 01:28:27.150
whether the Irish do, whether the Dutch do, whether the Germans do,

01:28:27.410 --> 01:28:32.150
you can break it all down by country,

01:28:32.450 --> 01:28:36.690
by race classification, however you want to do it, ethnicity, whatever.

01:28:37.910 --> 01:28:43.750
Everybody has contributed. And there are some folks that even if they work every

01:28:43.750 --> 01:28:45.090
day, they need some help.

01:28:45.850 --> 01:28:52.070
And we've got a political party that will scare the hell out of them, but won't help them.

01:28:52.870 --> 01:28:56.750
And then we've got the other political party, which I'm affiliated with,

01:28:56.830 --> 01:29:02.030
that seems to scare the hell out of them because we're coming up with these new ideas.

01:29:02.630 --> 01:29:10.370
But because they've been taught to fear new ideas, they're scared of the Democrats, too, right?

01:29:11.050 --> 01:29:17.410
See, that's why fear doesn't work. Our inherent nature is to not be fearful.

01:29:17.990 --> 01:29:20.470
We're supposed to be independent. We're supposed to be fierce.

01:29:20.610 --> 01:29:22.870
We're supposed to be strong. We're supposed to be forward-thinking.

01:29:23.150 --> 01:29:30.430
We're supposed to be hopeful. And fear, even though instinctually it guides

01:29:30.430 --> 01:29:37.270
us, okay, we shouldn't go into that dark alley or we shouldn't jump out of an airplane, right?

01:29:39.270 --> 01:29:45.410
It can be paralyzing as well. That's where you talk about phobias, right?

01:29:45.890 --> 01:29:49.070
But we shouldn't have a phobia about politics.

01:29:49.950 --> 01:29:57.090
We shouldn't have a phobia about new ideas to benefit people, right?

01:29:57.550 --> 01:30:04.510
And as long as we have a Democratic Republic government where we can vote and

01:30:04.510 --> 01:30:06.990
we can select people to handle the business,

01:30:07.630 --> 01:30:12.590
you know, if things don't go the way we envisioned, then we can start over.

01:30:13.210 --> 01:30:17.870
And we got to do it in a timely way so it won't do any major permanent damage.

01:30:18.450 --> 01:30:21.790
But, you know, we can try it and see what happens.

01:30:21.930 --> 01:30:25.890
But a lot of times when we do have a good idea, we just go with it.

01:30:26.010 --> 01:30:31.590
And then even if it needs correcting, we just let it ride because a lot of people

01:30:31.590 --> 01:30:36.790
base their political fate on pushing a certain program.

01:30:37.630 --> 01:30:45.710
I say all that to say we need to be engaged and we need to pay attention and we need to be.

01:30:45.710 --> 01:30:51.650
If we are going to be monolithic in thought, then we should be monolithic in

01:30:51.650 --> 01:30:57.490
the fact that every American deserves a chance to live and live abundantly.

01:30:58.600 --> 01:31:03.320
Right. And abundance doesn't mean everybody in America should be a billionaire.

01:31:04.020 --> 01:31:08.900
Right. Because to be honest, you know, if you reach billionaire status,

01:31:09.320 --> 01:31:13.420
you'll never spend all that money in your life, no matter how hard you try.

01:31:15.360 --> 01:31:19.360
So, you know, that's not the goal for everybody.

01:31:19.640 --> 01:31:24.360
The goal for everybody is to live the life they want to live and live it comfortably,

01:31:24.360 --> 01:31:28.760
whether that means having X amount of children, whether that means living in

01:31:28.760 --> 01:31:32.080
a certain community, whether that means being able to travel,

01:31:32.620 --> 01:31:36.440
go to sporting events, movie, whatever, whatever.

01:31:37.180 --> 01:31:43.720
People ought to feel comfortable enough to do that and not the reverse where

01:31:43.720 --> 01:31:48.560
people are making decisions whether I'm going to pay for my medicine or pay for my food.

01:31:49.060 --> 01:31:55.940
You should be able to do both. And in a real successful capitalistic society,

01:31:56.260 --> 01:32:01.100
paying for the health care shouldn't be even on the table. That should be a given.

01:32:01.920 --> 01:32:07.040
Education should be a given, right? Now, if you want to pay to go to Harvard

01:32:07.040 --> 01:32:11.520
and you want to pay to go to Yale and a private institution, that's on you.

01:32:12.980 --> 01:32:17.640
But if the state is going to provide you an education, then it should be for

01:32:17.640 --> 01:32:21.380
free and it should be funded as such. Right?

01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:29.520
Because my thought is if people are educated and people have the skill set to

01:32:29.520 --> 01:32:34.960
make their own money or be a viable asset to work for somebody,

01:32:35.140 --> 01:32:40.520
the less people you're going to need to give assistance to. Right?

01:32:41.160 --> 01:32:46.020
But if you tell people where you got to pick themselves up by their own bootstraps

01:32:46.020 --> 01:32:51.500
and then they're able to finally get a pair of boots and then you create policies

01:32:51.500 --> 01:32:54.140
to either take the boots or outlaw the boots,

01:32:55.440 --> 01:32:58.000
right, then that doesn't make any sense.

01:32:58.540 --> 01:33:03.040
Or if you create laws to deny that opportunity to get the boots.

01:33:04.262 --> 01:33:10.622
That doesn't make any sense, right? So if we want an America where everybody

01:33:10.622 --> 01:33:15.782
has a place to live, food, clothing,

01:33:16.702 --> 01:33:23.182
right, the basic needs, right, the Maslovian needs, then government should be

01:33:23.182 --> 01:33:25.082
working toward making that happen.

01:33:25.582 --> 01:33:28.802
Nobody that's ever served in the military should be homeless,

01:33:29.702 --> 01:33:32.102
right? That doesn't make any sense.

01:33:33.022 --> 01:33:36.902
People that are in law enforcement, people that are in public service, right?

01:33:37.202 --> 01:33:41.162
Firemen, teachers, they shouldn't be homeless, right?

01:33:42.182 --> 01:33:48.022
I'm just saying, it just doesn't make sense for us to be the wealthiest nation

01:33:48.022 --> 01:33:50.902
in the world and we have people that don't have a place to live.

01:33:52.822 --> 01:33:57.822
And are making decisions about food or health care.

01:33:58.522 --> 01:34:03.502
I'm not saying food should be free. Now, I'm not going there with that because

01:34:03.502 --> 01:34:08.022
the people that grow the food need to get paid for what they do.

01:34:08.802 --> 01:34:13.662
And how the capitalist machine works at that particular point, that's fine.

01:34:14.342 --> 01:34:17.582
But, you know, people like in the healthcare industry, they're saying,

01:34:17.702 --> 01:34:20.122
well, you know, these doctors and all that.

01:34:20.282 --> 01:34:26.822
The doctors in England are driving Mercedes-Benz and Porsches and living in.

01:34:26.822 --> 01:34:33.682
And if you've seen the property value in London, those doctors are getting paid good.

01:34:34.722 --> 01:34:37.842
And health care is provided to every citizen.

01:34:38.442 --> 01:34:42.002
It's government run. Those doctors are not struggling.

01:34:42.322 --> 01:34:51.222
Telling you, you don't believe it, just Zillow, Sotheby's, whatever real estate

01:34:51.222 --> 01:34:55.762
thing you want to look at, just look up London and look at how much the property value is there.

01:34:56.822 --> 01:34:59.762
It rivals or even surpasses New York and California.

01:35:01.175 --> 01:35:07.075
But those doctors are part of a system of universal health care, and they're doing okay.

01:35:07.735 --> 01:35:13.115
So why would you think that the doctors, the dentists, and ophthalmologists,

01:35:13.355 --> 01:35:19.915
and all these other medical professions wouldn't be okay if we had universal health care here?

01:35:20.055 --> 01:35:24.615
In Mexico, Canada and Mexico have universal health care.

01:35:25.335 --> 01:35:30.795
In Mexico, they have unions for the doctors and the nurses and all that,

01:35:30.855 --> 01:35:36.875
just like we have unions for the plumbers and the boilermakers and the teamsters,

01:35:37.115 --> 01:35:38.195
the truck drivers, right?

01:35:38.715 --> 01:35:42.695
They have unions for doctors and nurses in Mexico, right?

01:35:43.095 --> 01:35:50.035
Their issue in Mexico is if they don't have the United States as a valid trade

01:35:50.035 --> 01:35:53.595
partner, as an honest broker, jobs are going to be scarce.

01:35:53.595 --> 01:36:00.075
If there's no agricultural aid to make sure that those farm workers have something

01:36:00.075 --> 01:36:03.095
to do in their home country, then they're going to leave, right?

01:36:03.915 --> 01:36:07.895
And a lot of them are not Mexican, even though initially they were.

01:36:07.895 --> 01:36:11.495
A lot of them come from other Latin American countries.

01:36:12.095 --> 01:36:17.575
They come through Mexico to get to the United States, but they're not from Mexico, right?

01:36:18.215 --> 01:36:23.895
And now that you've cut off USAID, guess what? These people are going to try

01:36:23.895 --> 01:36:25.175
to figure out to get here.

01:36:25.915 --> 01:36:30.975
Now, you can try to scare them and round them up and get proud boys and bounty

01:36:30.975 --> 01:36:34.595
hunters and all these other stuff to act like ice agents to deter them.

01:36:34.675 --> 01:36:41.615
But if the economic conditions don't improve, if we don't do our soft diplomacy

01:36:41.615 --> 01:36:47.215
and use our technical expertise to help those folks develop in their own countries.

01:36:48.599 --> 01:36:52.899
They're going to come here because we're one of the, we're the wealthiest nation

01:36:52.899 --> 01:36:56.319
on the planet and we're accessible to them.

01:36:56.899 --> 01:37:02.559
If they were closer to Europe, they'd be all in Europe, but they're accessible to the United States.

01:37:03.259 --> 01:37:09.439
So why not come here, right? If we're not going to help them with our wealth,

01:37:09.619 --> 01:37:11.319
with our talent, with our expertise,

01:37:11.559 --> 01:37:16.819
if we're not going to help them build up their own country so they could stay

01:37:16.819 --> 01:37:22.559
and build wealth and build a nation that's self-sustaining,

01:37:23.319 --> 01:37:28.019
then, yeah, those people are going to go where the money is. And that's here.

01:37:28.859 --> 01:37:32.219
Now, it's probably not a whole lot of people trying to come because they're

01:37:32.219 --> 01:37:35.099
trying to weigh out how crazy this thing is going to be.

01:37:36.279 --> 01:37:44.319
And you're having a problem now where there's Americans wanting to leave themselves

01:37:44.319 --> 01:37:49.939
because they don't see the opportunities that are supposed to be here, right?

01:37:50.319 --> 01:37:56.759
Because you want to pass policies and spew rhetoric and all that stuff to discourage

01:37:56.759 --> 01:38:04.919
people, to dishearten people, and then to terrorize people to be fearful of each other, right?

01:38:06.144 --> 01:38:10.264
The United States of America has always been a land of opportunity,

01:38:10.264 --> 01:38:15.044
and we have to do right by everybody,

01:38:15.524 --> 01:38:23.584
even the, or even more so, the first citizens of this nation, the natives, right?

01:38:25.264 --> 01:38:31.224
Everybody deserves an opportunity to live and live abundantly again.

01:38:31.224 --> 01:38:37.444
So we have to elect people that understand that, to understand the value of

01:38:37.444 --> 01:38:40.464
the historically and predominantly black colleges and universities,

01:38:40.644 --> 01:38:44.984
understand the value of the Native American community, understand the value

01:38:44.984 --> 01:38:46.284
of the Latino community,

01:38:46.784 --> 01:38:51.564
the Asian American Pacific Islander community, and yes, the white community.

01:38:52.044 --> 01:38:57.144
Because this whole replacement theory, that's straight BS.

01:38:57.904 --> 01:39:06.704
Nobody is trying to replace anybody. All anybody wants to do is to be left alone, right?

01:39:07.024 --> 01:39:13.484
The ultimate goal of every American is to be left alone, to live the life they want to live, period.

01:39:13.944 --> 01:39:18.864
And if we don't elect people that understand that fundamental concept,

01:39:19.264 --> 01:39:22.524
then we're going to continue to have this internal conflict.

01:39:23.444 --> 01:39:27.524
We've got to get in that mindset. Leave black folks alone.

01:39:27.824 --> 01:39:34.324
Leave Latino folks alone. Let them live their lives Let them thrive Let them thrive,

01:39:35.244 --> 01:39:46.624
Do right by them And I promise you This nation will hold up For another 250 years I promise you that,

01:39:47.364 --> 01:39:52.924
Alright guys, I gotta go But again, you know Please subscribe on patreon.com

01:39:52.924 --> 01:39:59.324
Slash I'm Eric Fleming Keep listening Thank you for listening and until next time.

01:40:02.160 --> 01:40:47.182
Music.