Wellbeing Economics & The Battle for the Black Mind Featuring Amanda Janoo and Dr. Karida Brown

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Music.

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Hello and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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And today I'm really excited because I have two incredible women coming on.

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Both of them are way smarter than I am and really were a joy to talk to.

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One has been on the podcast before and another one, This was her first time,

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but based on the conversations we've had, she's going to come back for sure.

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But I hope that you enjoy their interviews.

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One is going to be talking about economics. The other is going to be talking

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about the history of black education.

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And both of those subjects are very, very relevant to where we are now.

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So I just I hope you all enjoy that.

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You know, we're still trying to get, you know, our target number of subscribers.

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You know, we set a goal of 20,000 and need people to come on with it and do

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And if you go to patreon.com slash a moment with Erik Fleming,

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You can also go to momenterik.com and, you know, not only support the podcast that way,

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but also if you want to catch up with some old episodes, you want to hear how

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it really started as opposed to what it is now, whatever.

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You want to leave a review. You heard an interview that you liked.

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You know, just feel free to utilize that. That's what it's there for.

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as you have been doing, and ask that you continue to do that.

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All right. So let's go ahead and kick it off. And as always,

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we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Music.

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Thanks, Erik. Three former Memphis police officers convicted in the death of

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Tyree Nichols have been granted new federal trials due to a judge's questionable

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communications with prosecutors.

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Chicago's Mayor Brandon Johnson has signed an executive order stating that the

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city's police will not assist any federal agents or National Guard troops that

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President Trump may deploy to the city.

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Victims of Jeffrey Epstein demanded at a Capitol Hill press conference that

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Congress pass a bill to release all unclassified records related to the disgraced financier. The U.S.

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Justice Department has opened a criminal mortgage fraud probe into Federal Reserve

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Governor Lisa Cook. A U.S.

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Appeals court has ruled that most of President Trump's tariffs are illegal,

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though they will remain in effect for now to allow the administration time to

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appeal to the Supreme Court.

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U.S. Republican Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa has decided not to run for re-election,

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a move that could affect her party's chances of keeping control of the Senate.

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Missouri's Republican Governor Mike Kehoe has called a special legislative session

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to redraw congressional districts.

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President Donald Trump has canceled the Secret Service protection for his 2024

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rival and former Vice President Kamala Harris.

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Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

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Has approached Jim O'Neill as acting director of the CDC after firing the former

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director, Susan Menares, who resisted changes to vaccine policy.

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Florida Surgeon General announced the state will end all vaccine mandates,

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including those for students.

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The U.S. Air Force will offer military funeral honors for Ashley Babbitt,

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the veteran who was killed during the January 6, 2021 attack on the U.S. Capitol.

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And in one of Afghanistan's worst earthquakes, over 800 people were killed and thousands injured.

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I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for my guest, Amanda Janoo.

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Amanda Janoo is a Family Economic Security Fellow at the New Practice Lab.

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Janoo is a visionary economist committing to building economies that prioritize people and planet.

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Blending expertise in heterodox economics, industrial policy,

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and participatory governance, Janoo has dedicated her career to advancing social

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and ecological well-being through economic systems change.

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As the economics and policy lead at the Well-Being Economy Alliance.

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Janoo is a leading advocate for redefining how economic success is measured and achieved.

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She works with governments, organizations, and communities worldwide to shift

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the focus from economic growth to sustainable well-being,

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promoting policies that emphasize long-term prosperity for both society and the environment.

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Known for her engaging communication style, Janu excels at breaking down complex

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economic concepts for diverse audiences, from policymakers to grassroots organizations.

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Will have speaking at international conferences, crafting policy guides or advancing

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initiatives like well-being, budgeting, and beyond GDP frameworks,

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Janoo's work reflects her unwavering belief in the power of economic democracy

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to create a just and sustainable world.

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For a master's in philosophy and development studies from Cambridge University,

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where she studied under renowned economist Ha-Joon Chang, Janoo brings deep expertise

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in industrial policy and sustainable development.

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Having worked for over a decade as an industrial policy and structural transformation

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expert for UNIDO, GIZ, and the African Development Bank.

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Rooted in Vermont, Janoo brings Janoo Bridges global expertise with local impact,

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supporting state-level coalition building and advising U.S.

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Foundations to help accelerate the well-being economy movement across our country.

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Janoo's mission is clear, to inspire a movement towards economic systems that

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honor human dignity, ecological balance, and well-being for all.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Amanda Janoo.

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Music.

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All right amanda janoo am i saying that right,

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Perfect. How are you doing? Oh, I'm doing okay. You know, personally good.

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Asterix, existentially stressed.

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Yeah, that's all of us. All of us are in this thing, but that's why we're in this fight together.

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And I wanted you to come on because you have a pretty unique take on economics

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that I think people need to be exposed to.

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I mean, you're more famous than I am, but I just, you know, for my audience,

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I wanted to give you this platform to talk about well-being economics,

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because I just felt that sounds great.

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I think I think we need to have well-being when it comes to our money and our

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personal wealth and all that and trying to navigate through all this stuff.

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So what I like to do at the beginning is do the icebreaker thing.

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And so the first icebreaker is

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a quote and the quote is the

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best way to predict your future is to create it what does that quote mean to

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you i love that i love that for me and probably because i'm obsessed with the

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economy right is i think often the major limitation is our imagination.

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And so it's really about like when you can dream it, then that's when you can build it.

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And so that's what that quote means to me. But I appreciate that in this moment

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when there's a pretty pervasive sense of hopelessness.

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Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, the guy who said that was Abraham Lincoln.

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So he was going through some stuff when he was president.

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So I'm sure it was the same spirit when he when he said that.

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So the next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

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Okay. Do I say it? Yes. 18. Okay.

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What's one thing we might all agree is important, no matter our differences? Hmm.

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In my experience, when I ask people what they love about where they live,

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no matter who it is, I would say maybe not 100% of the time,

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but pretty like maybe 99% of the time people say it's their people.

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The community, and the nature.

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And so I think that that's a pretty universally, like, sort of valued thing

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in our lives that we view as important.

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Okay. So you're saying we all have an appreciation and a sense of community.

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Mm-hmm. Okay. Sounds good. All right.

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So let's start this interview with a question that you posed in 2023.

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Do we serve the economy or does the economy serve us?

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Well, first, I think it's helpful to define the economy because it's a term we hear all of the time,

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but it's often presented as a pretty abstract force that happens out there beyond

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our control when the reality is that we are the economy.

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It's just a word for the way that we produce and provide for one another.

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And so the economy is really just the means and methods by which we interact

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with one another in our natural environment to improve our collective quality of life. But,

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Although our sort of obsession with the economy may feel timeless,

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it actually only entered the term economy into the public discourse after the Great Depression.

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With the development of a system of national accounts, or nowadays what we use

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as like GDP, gross domestic product, to sort of measure economic output and national income.

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But one of its chief architects, Simon Kuznets, was really clear that this indicator

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should not be used to assess the well-being of a society and that any discussion

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of growth should be really clear on growth of what and why.

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But, you know, we didn't listen since World War II, but particularly since the 1980s.

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We've been evaluating not only our economy success, but our societal success

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by our level of economic growth.

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So by our level of production and consumption and income, assuming that that's

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what matters most for a good life.

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And so if economic growth is our no star,

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we've treated people in nature as inputs into those production processes or

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into the economy rather than viewing them as the beneficiaries of this system.

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And I will say, though, I think the tides are really turning.

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And so surveys have shown, for example, recently that 68% of Americans believe

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the economy should prioritize the health and well-being of people and nature

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rather than profit and wealth.

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And so to answer your question, I think we're in a moment of change where people

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are recognizing that we are not here to serve the economy, but are being treated as such,

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and that we need to start treating the economy as if it's here to serve us.

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So, Amanda, I want you to diagnose my condition.

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I believe that private owners should be able to produce goods and services they

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can sell in an open market with prices and wages set by supply,

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demand and competition.

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However, I also believe that health care and education should be provided for

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for provided for free or subsidized by the government.

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So what am I? And the reason why I ask that is because, you know,

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as somebody that's been in politics, as somebody that's had to deal with these

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issues and we get labeled. Oh, you're a socialist.

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You're a communist. You're a liberal or whatever the case may be.

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And then some people are like, you're just a capitalist like everybody else.

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But it's not that cut and dry. So based on my beliefs, how would you describe me?

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Well, first, I might ask you a couple questions to get a better understanding of your philosophy.

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So why do you think that health and education should be free?

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I think the wealthiest nation in the world should make sure that their people

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are healthy and their people are educated and to perpetuate that wealth.

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It's not just, you know, it's to me, it's the ultimate in national security.

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I'm looking at all these other industrialized nations have free health care

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or free education or both.

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And I'm like, here we are, you know, debating whether people should have their

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debt retired or forgiven as far as going to school and all that.

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I mean, Dwight D. Eisenhower created the student loan program.

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As a means of defense, because he wanted to get more Americans into the sciences, right?

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So it's like, to me, the general concept has always been you want your people

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to be healthy, you want your people to be educated.

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And I think the government, you know, government as rich as ours should be able to finance them.

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Mm-hmm. Are there any other kinds of goods or services or things that you think

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should be provided freely to people?

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You know, I had to I had to really think about that. You know,

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there's been a lot of debate recently with Mr.

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Mamdani running in New York that, you know, public transportation should be available.

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And that that sounds like it could be but i just you know and this is the pragmatic

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side of me in politics it was just like you know just trying to deal with public

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transportation budgets,

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making sure that you know in in mississippi jackson was you know now biloxi

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the gulf coast has a system but at that time it was primarily jackson and you

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know we were debating whether we needed to have a high rail system and all that, that.

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And the main thing was trying to figure out how we're going to pay for it.

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How is it going to pay for itself?

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You know, we've always debated about tow roads and people being able to,

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you know, should we have a tow road for a minute?

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And then once the construction's paid off, then let it be a free road again.

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And in Georgia, you kind of have the same dynamics. MARTA's much bigger than J-Tran and Jackson.

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But, you know, It's like there are some communities that don't want public transportation

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because they think it's going to bring some kind of element to the community.

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So outside of health care, I think health care and education are universal that people support.

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And that would be the easier targets to go after anything else, you know.

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And it's, you know, people, I don't think people are as, their appetite is not as wedded for them.

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Mm-hmm. And why do you believe, like, why do you believe private ownership is important?

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Well, I will, you know, as a Black person, and by the way, welcome to the Amanda Janoo show.

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I know, sorry. Um, what, what I think that, I think it's important as a black

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person, you know, just from our history that we need to establish wealth in

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the, in the wealthiest nation in the world.

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When a white person has $100, we only have $5.

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I think that's very important for us to be able to have assets,

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to have homes, to have investments and all those other things, land and all that.

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So I think that's important in a capitalist society because you've got to be

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able to build communities and establish businesses and not be so dependent on

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other people to do what you need to do.

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So I think that aspect is important.

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So like independence and like freedom and autonomy and yeah,

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yeah, I definitely get that.

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And what is your take on like cooperatives or employee owned businesses?

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You know what I mean? Like, or do you think it's really about like a private individual?

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So, you know, I don't have a problem with co-ops. I think co-ops can coexist

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in a capitalist market, you know, because I think that if a group of people, say like farmers,

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for example, if they want to put together a co-op to be competitive with General Mills,

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the Koch brothers, all these other giant agricultural companies.

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You know, I think that's, that should be fair game. I think they should be allowed to do that.

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Amazing. All right. Well, my diagnosis would be, and this is also what I will

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say, like in the sort of what we might call the new economy or alternative economy

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space, there are hundreds of different terms,

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right, for different kinds of philosophies.

00:20:17.384 --> 00:20:21.724
And I tend to try not to use isms, actually, as much as possible, because I don't know.

00:20:22.164 --> 00:20:30.084
But I would say I would see you as part nationally of like part of sort of the

00:20:30.084 --> 00:20:31.424
progressive economy movement.

00:20:31.904 --> 00:20:39.184
Right. where we're looking at ensuring that we create certain foundational social

00:20:39.184 --> 00:20:44.124
welfare provisions, whether that's health education, et cetera.

00:20:44.724 --> 00:20:48.964
Part of the, there's also like a growing, it sounds like you'd be very aligned.

00:20:49.124 --> 00:20:50.444
Have you ever spoken with Derek Hamilton?

00:20:50.884 --> 00:20:57.424
He's an economist, but he talks, he's focuses in like stratification economics and a lot of that.

00:20:57.564 --> 00:21:01.624
Yeah, I've been trying to get Derek on the show. I know he's big time on the

00:21:01.624 --> 00:21:03.084
news school and all that. Yeah.

00:21:04.104 --> 00:21:06.744
Hopefully, once he sees that you and I have had a conversation,

00:21:06.844 --> 00:21:08.984
he's like, oh, okay, he might be all right to talk to. Okay.

00:21:09.244 --> 00:21:13.164
I know. He's amazing. He's such good people. And so, you know,

00:21:13.304 --> 00:21:17.684
he frames his work around, you know, economic human rights.

00:21:17.684 --> 00:21:21.804
And there is like a growing global movement that's really centered in that, too,

00:21:21.964 --> 00:21:26.904
of how do we ensure that people's, everybody's afforded certain basic human

00:21:26.904 --> 00:21:31.584
rights as a foundation in our economy or the guarantee movement,

00:21:31.984 --> 00:21:33.144
like with Natalie Foster,

00:21:33.644 --> 00:21:37.904
which are about, you know, ensuring certain minimum guarantees for individuals.

00:21:37.904 --> 00:21:42.304
So I would see you as part of a lot of those, you know, different sort of movements

00:21:42.304 --> 00:21:44.944
or paradigms that exist within the U.S.

00:21:44.944 --> 00:21:50.244
Or globally. But come in a lot of other names like Social Democrat or,

00:21:50.244 --> 00:21:53.964
yeah, Foundational Economy is like a movement.

00:21:54.284 --> 00:21:59.604
So many terms, but you can you can choose whichever one sort of resonates with you, too.

00:22:01.364 --> 00:22:04.924
I've made the argument that America does capitalism wrong.

00:22:05.649 --> 00:22:10.929
It tends to focus on and reward limited accumulation of wealth instead of true

00:22:10.929 --> 00:22:12.649
opportunity for attaining wealth.

00:22:13.089 --> 00:22:15.369
Am I on the right track with that argument?

00:22:16.649 --> 00:22:22.249
Absolutely, for sure. I think one of the fundamental core root issues in our

00:22:22.249 --> 00:22:25.389
current economic system is that it's a lot easier to make money off of money

00:22:25.389 --> 00:22:28.049
than it is off of actual real work.

00:22:28.049 --> 00:22:31.889
So wages have been stagnant for, you know,

00:22:32.229 --> 00:22:38.549
30 years or so, despite rapid productivity growth, which has allowed for an

00:22:38.549 --> 00:22:43.989
increasingly small group of folks to accumulate a huge amount of wealth and power.

00:22:43.989 --> 00:22:48.729
And once you have wealth, you can easily make more wealth off of it,

00:22:48.829 --> 00:22:53.629
either through speculative finance, interest-based lending, rents,

00:22:53.749 --> 00:22:56.129
and which are all extractive, right?

00:22:56.209 --> 00:22:59.889
Like you're not actually providing something of value, just taking money from other people.

00:22:59.889 --> 00:23:05.669
And so that is why we've seen such a huge acceleration and such high levels

00:23:05.669 --> 00:23:07.389
of inequality in our country,

00:23:07.389 --> 00:23:15.389
as well as a very alarming consolidation of wealth and power. So, you know, in the U.S.

00:23:15.449 --> 00:23:21.209
Now, every single sector is dominated by less than a handful of corporations.

00:23:21.749 --> 00:23:28.309
And all of those corporations are now owned predominantly by three private equity

00:23:28.309 --> 00:23:31.369
firms, right? Like BlackRock and Vanguard.

00:23:31.749 --> 00:23:36.809
And I was actually I was recently rereading The Great Crash by John Kenneth Galbraith.

00:23:37.129 --> 00:23:40.949
He was, do you know him? Yeah, famous economist. I actually met him.

00:23:41.578 --> 00:23:47.438
Did you really? Yeah, I met him at Ole Miss. They were doing an episode of Firing line up there.

00:23:47.858 --> 00:23:51.998
Wow, that's amazing. He's definitely one of my intellectual heroes.

00:23:52.358 --> 00:23:57.078
And so, you know, this book is all around the causes of the Great Depression.

00:23:57.418 --> 00:24:02.198
And those two factors, those were two of the five major factors that he identified

00:24:02.198 --> 00:24:05.338
as causing the Great Depression in the U.S.

00:24:05.338 --> 00:24:11.998
This like what he calls a bad distribution of income and like a pyramiding of

00:24:11.998 --> 00:24:13.818
industries in this form.

00:24:14.158 --> 00:24:17.218
And so, I mean, I would argue that we're already in economic crisis because

00:24:17.218 --> 00:24:21.458
60% of Americans can't even afford basic needs.

00:24:21.938 --> 00:24:26.098
But I think we're also headed to a much more severe economic crisis too,

00:24:26.098 --> 00:24:28.498
because we are recreating the

00:24:28.498 --> 00:24:31.818
exact same situations that led to the Great Depression in the first place.

00:24:32.058 --> 00:24:35.418
And I'd be happy to like share those other factors, but I also think I may have

00:24:35.418 --> 00:24:40.078
taken us on a tangent here, so I'll pause and see, yeah, where you want to go.

00:24:40.338 --> 00:24:46.058
Well, let's define what a well-being economy is for the listeners. Sure.

00:24:48.058 --> 00:24:53.938
So a well-being economy is really just an economy that works in service of people

00:24:53.938 --> 00:24:57.838
and planets' well-being, right? That's sort of the basic idea.

00:24:59.018 --> 00:25:04.778
Now, one of the things I will say is then we have to define what do we mean by well-being.

00:25:04.998 --> 00:25:11.018
And for me, as somebody who has worked internationally with a lot of different

00:25:11.018 --> 00:25:15.578
countries and cultures and contexts, I think one of the most problematic aspects

00:25:15.578 --> 00:25:19.478
of our current economic system is the sort of one-size-fits-all thing.

00:25:20.071 --> 00:25:23.591
Economic theory structure when the reality is that, you know,

00:25:23.651 --> 00:25:26.311
the way we produce and provide for one another is always going to be influenced

00:25:26.311 --> 00:25:29.911
by our culture and context and geography and history and policies, etc.

00:25:30.131 --> 00:25:34.551
Right. So there isn't that one size fits all, I think, vision.

00:25:34.631 --> 00:25:38.411
But as I work for an organization called the Wellbeing Economy Alliance,

00:25:38.671 --> 00:25:43.831
which is a global collaboration of organizations, policymakers, academics, activists.

00:25:44.191 --> 00:25:50.511
And so we engage our membership early on to really define what do we believe

00:25:50.511 --> 00:25:52.411
that the economy should really be delivering.

00:25:52.751 --> 00:25:58.471
And we developed what was called like the five we all needs of dignity.

00:25:58.931 --> 00:26:02.891
Fairness, participation, nature, and connection.

00:26:03.191 --> 00:26:07.651
And so what that looks like in practice is it becomes a different framework

00:26:07.651 --> 00:26:09.611
for evaluating our economy's success.

00:26:09.851 --> 00:26:12.951
So when we talk about dignity, we would be asking, does our economy provide

00:26:12.951 --> 00:26:17.451
everybody with the necessary foundations to live a life of dignity and purpose?

00:26:17.691 --> 00:26:23.751
Or with fairness, we asked, does our economy ensure a just distribution of not

00:26:23.751 --> 00:26:26.491
only income and wealth, but time and power?

00:26:26.771 --> 00:26:32.511
When we speak about nature, it's about does our economy protect and cherish

00:26:32.511 --> 00:26:34.811
and regenerate the natural world?

00:26:34.991 --> 00:26:39.391
With connection, it's about does our economy foster meaningful relationships

00:26:39.391 --> 00:26:43.811
and connections and right relationships between people and planet.

00:26:44.151 --> 00:26:48.971
And participation, I think, is really core of does our economy ensure that we

00:26:48.971 --> 00:26:57.051
have an active voice and power in shaping the economic system in line with our values and goals? Yeah.

00:26:57.471 --> 00:27:03.971
What steps can be done to achieve a well-being economy? And does government play a role in that?

00:27:05.951 --> 00:27:11.931
So my background is in policy. So I'm definitely a bit biased in this regard.

00:27:11.931 --> 00:27:16.931
But I do believe policy is important because, I mean, policy is ultimately just,

00:27:18.154 --> 00:27:24.794
the government tools that are used to influence behavior in line with collective goals, right?

00:27:24.974 --> 00:27:28.494
And so we can see around the world.

00:27:28.714 --> 00:27:33.614
So we have, for example, this Wellbeing Economy Governments Partnership,

00:27:33.614 --> 00:27:38.594
which includes Canada, New Zealand, Wales, Scotland, Finland.

00:27:39.474 --> 00:27:45.974
And Wales is one of my favorite examples of where you can see really visionary

00:27:45.974 --> 00:27:48.994
transformation of not only policy,

00:27:48.994 --> 00:27:56.334
but also of governance structures in line with this commitment to developing a well-being economy.

00:27:56.534 --> 00:27:59.274
So what they did is they went through a process of asking their citizens.

00:27:59.974 --> 00:28:02.634
What kind of whales do you want to leave for your children and grandchildren?

00:28:03.034 --> 00:28:06.774
And on this basis, they created these seven high-level well-being goals,

00:28:06.794 --> 00:28:14.414
which are centered in health, equity, you know, resilience, global responsibility,

00:28:14.834 --> 00:28:17.854
cultural connection, cohesion, etc.

00:28:18.414 --> 00:28:25.534
And then they passed a legislation that required not only the establishment

00:28:25.534 --> 00:28:32.354
of very clear 25-year targets related to those goals and indicators to sort of monitor progress,

00:28:32.354 --> 00:28:36.074
but the transformation of the governance structure itself to take more long-term

00:28:36.074 --> 00:28:37.914
preventative, integrated,

00:28:38.054 --> 00:28:40.394
and participatory processes to achieve it.

00:28:40.634 --> 00:28:45.934
And they created a future generations commissioner whose tenure is always longer

00:28:45.934 --> 00:28:51.074
than any political administration or cycle to ensure that they were held accountable.

00:28:51.074 --> 00:28:54.574
The government was held to account to achieving that next generation vision.

00:28:54.834 --> 00:28:58.954
And so what this looked like in practice was that when they wanted to build

00:28:58.954 --> 00:29:04.034
a new highway through the country, the future generations commissioner said,

00:29:04.094 --> 00:29:07.134
okay, well, tell me how that's going to contribute to our seven well-being goals.

00:29:07.394 --> 00:29:10.634
And when they couldn't make the case for contributing to any of the goals,

00:29:10.654 --> 00:29:15.314
except for maybe one, they ended up putting a freeze, a permanent freeze on

00:29:15.314 --> 00:29:18.814
all new highway developments so that those funds would get redirected into public

00:29:18.814 --> 00:29:20.514
transportation and active travel,

00:29:20.814 --> 00:29:24.854
which they could make this case for contributing to a more equitable, healthy.

00:29:25.394 --> 00:29:27.674
Globally responsible, etc. Right.

00:29:27.954 --> 00:29:34.314
And so it's there are ways in which I I personally see our crisis of democracy

00:29:34.314 --> 00:29:36.734
and economy as inextricably linked.

00:29:36.754 --> 00:29:41.894
And we can't transform the economic system unless we transform our political

00:29:41.894 --> 00:29:47.534
system so that we have more democratic management of the economy to begin with. Yeah.

00:29:47.734 --> 00:29:51.754
So you use the term resilience, right? And I've noticed that there are some

00:29:51.754 --> 00:29:57.634
cities that have a department or something of resilience. And I was kind of

00:29:57.634 --> 00:29:59.514
like, what exactly is that?

00:30:01.254 --> 00:30:04.934
Well, in Wales, and this is one of my favorite things to their definition of

00:30:04.934 --> 00:30:06.254
resilience was based in biodiversity.

00:30:07.595 --> 00:30:12.455
Conservation. They viewed it as to be a resilient society, we really need to

00:30:12.455 --> 00:30:14.935
ensure that we're protecting biodiversity.

00:30:15.515 --> 00:30:18.415
And it was also, you know, it was a sustainable development legislation.

00:30:18.415 --> 00:30:22.735
So I think there was more emphasis placed on the environment relative to some

00:30:22.735 --> 00:30:26.895
other countries where their vision of well-being is maybe a bit more anthropocentric

00:30:26.895 --> 00:30:29.315
and the sense that it's really centered on humans'

00:30:29.555 --> 00:30:32.135
well-being and not people and nature.

00:30:32.395 --> 00:30:36.235
But working in international development, in a lot of countries to find resilience

00:30:36.235 --> 00:30:39.715
around diversification, all right?

00:30:39.975 --> 00:30:43.515
And so it's the same with biodiversity, right? We need diverse ecosystems,

00:30:43.515 --> 00:30:49.375
but also we need diversity in our economic structures so that we don't have,

00:30:49.475 --> 00:30:54.395
for example, just a couple of big corporations that if they fall,

00:30:55.035 --> 00:30:56.695
everything crumbles, right?

00:30:56.755 --> 00:31:01.035
And so that's always been the case for the need for a diversity of businesses

00:31:01.035 --> 00:31:05.035
and activities and things like this that can weather an economic storm. Okay.

00:31:05.875 --> 00:31:09.595
Define the concept of seven-generation thinking.

00:31:10.415 --> 00:31:15.155
Hmm. Well, this is actually, yeah, this is quite important because I should

00:31:15.155 --> 00:31:20.615
also say that the concept of a well-being economy is definitely not new and it is not our own.

00:31:20.615 --> 00:31:23.735
So I think it derives very much

00:31:23.735 --> 00:31:27.235
from a lot of different indigenous philosophies like

00:31:27.235 --> 00:31:30.615
Ubuntu or Suaraj or Buen which

00:31:30.615 --> 00:31:33.655
are really about recognizing that

00:31:33.655 --> 00:31:37.995
like true progress is living in

00:31:37.995 --> 00:31:41.015
right relationship with yourself others

00:31:41.015 --> 00:31:45.035
and like the natural world right and it's about not growth but balance like

00:31:45.035 --> 00:31:50.275
how do we ensure appropriate balance and so the idea of seventh generation thinking

00:31:50.275 --> 00:31:55.035
derives from i mean there's a variety of different i would say indigenous lineages

00:31:55.035 --> 00:31:58.395
that is a part of it and And it's about taking,

00:31:58.835 --> 00:32:03.635
not only considering seven generations in the future, but also considering seven

00:32:03.635 --> 00:32:05.355
generations in the past, right?

00:32:05.495 --> 00:32:13.155
So to do justice to our, to future generations and also to our ancestors and

00:32:13.155 --> 00:32:17.435
to like honor the, what has come before and what will come after.

00:32:17.875 --> 00:32:22.795
And this is something I'll say from my experience working in international development

00:32:22.795 --> 00:32:25.175
and then moving to work with high income countries.

00:32:26.311 --> 00:32:32.831
I was doing industrial policy before with them and the logic wasn't so different.

00:32:32.931 --> 00:32:36.691
I would say the major difference I've noticed is that, you know,

00:32:36.751 --> 00:32:39.991
developing countries are much more constrained by our global economic system,

00:32:39.991 --> 00:32:43.951
whereas high income countries are constrained by an arrogance that makes them

00:32:43.951 --> 00:32:46.471
think they don't need a development plan in the first place. Right.

00:32:46.671 --> 00:32:53.511
So we have very short term, just reactive kind of approaches to the crises of

00:32:53.511 --> 00:32:57.191
our time without much clarity of like, what are we actually trying to achieve?

00:32:57.571 --> 00:33:04.391
How do we think beyond our immediate needs to really consider future generations

00:33:04.391 --> 00:33:08.851
when we're making these decisions and to develop? You know, the reality is that

00:33:08.851 --> 00:33:11.611
systems change takes time, right?

00:33:11.731 --> 00:33:16.831
And so we need to be in it, or as they say, plant the seeds for a tree under

00:33:16.831 --> 00:33:18.551
which we will never sit, right?

00:33:18.631 --> 00:33:23.011
Like to have that perspective as well to not only achieve the kind of systemic

00:33:23.011 --> 00:33:26.951
transformations that are needed, but also the humility, I think,

00:33:27.091 --> 00:33:31.091
of not taking ourselves so seriously. Yeah.

00:33:31.971 --> 00:33:38.171
Is that going to be hard for Black folks to achieve here?

00:33:38.631 --> 00:33:44.211
Because, you know, seven generations back, we were at a very,

00:33:44.351 --> 00:33:51.691
very major disadvantage as far as wealth attainment and all that is virtually nil.

00:33:51.691 --> 00:33:59.491
I can see us navigating and developing a strategy for seven generations forward,

00:33:59.731 --> 00:34:04.191
but how could we apply that kind of thinking?

00:34:05.102 --> 00:34:11.062
Yeah. I mean, and obviously, you know, for me, I don't want to speak for Black

00:34:11.062 --> 00:34:15.442
Americans, you know, and your experiences as well.

00:34:15.842 --> 00:34:22.902
I think in terms of there is an importance of when we think about our ancestry.

00:34:22.902 --> 00:34:30.642
One of the things that I've really loved is about like the Black Lives Movement

00:34:30.642 --> 00:34:35.722
is also a recognition of not only incredible injustice,

00:34:35.722 --> 00:34:41.322
but also of like a celebration as well of incredible,

00:34:41.342 --> 00:34:42.022
you know,

00:34:42.242 --> 00:34:44.582
cultures and, you know,

00:34:44.842 --> 00:34:49.542
innovations and contributions to our society at large.

00:34:49.542 --> 00:34:55.182
And I think with thinking about past generations, I think this is where,

00:34:55.182 --> 00:34:59.022
you know, notions around and initiatives around reparations, for example,

00:34:59.462 --> 00:35:05.162
you start to really see the importance of in order to acknowledge sort of historic

00:35:05.162 --> 00:35:11.642
harm and injustice, as well as when we think about future, you know, generations.

00:35:12.562 --> 00:35:15.342
How do we one of the things I've

00:35:15.342 --> 00:35:18.602
noticed when different countries when they develop their well-being frameworks

00:35:18.602 --> 00:35:23.882
will ask different questions and when you ask what matters for well-being people

00:35:23.882 --> 00:35:30.242
will often think about like immediate material needs but when you ask what matters

00:35:30.242 --> 00:35:36.742
for children's well-being you'll start to get answers related to like play and love And, you know,

00:35:36.942 --> 00:35:43.442
and creativity and other types of things that sometimes expand our imaginations in a way.

00:35:43.582 --> 00:35:48.602
And so that's one of the powers to the beginning quote that you started with of thinking.

00:35:49.222 --> 00:35:54.122
Thinking that far in advance, like allowing ourselves to dream in a much more

00:35:54.122 --> 00:35:58.222
radical way about the type of future we want to build and to feel like we can

00:35:58.222 --> 00:36:00.462
be a part of that construction now.

00:36:01.242 --> 00:36:07.482
Yeah. Well, one of the quotes I used to live by was that a politician thinks

00:36:07.482 --> 00:36:10.902
about the next election, but a statesman thinks about the next generation.

00:36:11.682 --> 00:36:16.542
And I think that's, you know, when you're talking about the focus on the immediate

00:36:16.542 --> 00:36:22.782
needs, people are looking at political expediency rather than looking at what,

00:36:22.782 --> 00:36:25.862
what really would make America great, right?

00:36:26.022 --> 00:36:31.302
What really would propel us to a whole nother level in the biblical sense to

00:36:31.302 --> 00:36:33.582
really be the light on the Hill. Right.

00:36:34.282 --> 00:36:39.962
But, you know, I don't know. I just, I've always, I was, I was curious about

00:36:39.962 --> 00:36:46.642
that because, you know, we we've had to be resilient in our own way.

00:36:47.062 --> 00:36:53.402
And and, you know, a lot of times it's hard for people to get a concept about

00:36:53.402 --> 00:36:57.542
thinking about the future when you're dealing with day to day struggles and

00:36:57.542 --> 00:37:00.062
you were kind of behind the eight ball from Jump Street.

00:37:00.382 --> 00:37:04.542
And although some people have been able to attain wealth and do things,

00:37:04.842 --> 00:37:07.462
it hasn't been a collective deal.

00:37:08.162 --> 00:37:11.542
I mean, this is one of the things I've really noticed, actually, because I've,

00:37:12.277 --> 00:37:14.497
You know, I was working internationally for a long time, and then I've been

00:37:14.497 --> 00:37:18.297
focused more in the U.S. for only the last maybe like three, four years.

00:37:19.057 --> 00:37:24.057
And I did notice that a lot because a lot of the kind of work related to a well-being

00:37:24.057 --> 00:37:30.617
economy is longer-term systemic thinking, which in the U.S.

00:37:30.617 --> 00:37:40.037
I've noticed is viewed at best as like a luxury for like, you know,

00:37:40.197 --> 00:37:45.097
for a few people who can afford it or at worst as just naive. Right.

00:37:45.257 --> 00:37:51.557
And I think that's because our economic system, there's so much precarity here.

00:37:52.137 --> 00:37:55.777
Our systems are shot, like our nervous systems are shot.

00:37:55.897 --> 00:37:59.357
So we're constantly in a state of fight or flight and we're constantly trying

00:37:59.357 --> 00:38:06.277
to just play defense or, you know, focus on, I work on the earned income tax

00:38:06.277 --> 00:38:08.337
credit. Right. Like something really specific.

00:38:08.637 --> 00:38:14.097
But the whole idea of taking a step back and thinking, OK, where where are we even trying to go?

00:38:14.357 --> 00:38:19.857
Can we imagine entirely different forms of government or decision making or

00:38:19.857 --> 00:38:22.757
of economic structures that would be better aligned to this?

00:38:22.757 --> 00:38:25.917
That, yeah, there's less maybe

00:38:25.917 --> 00:38:30.777
appetite for that than other countries or cultures that I've been in.

00:38:30.897 --> 00:38:32.577
And I think part of that is, yeah,

00:38:32.857 --> 00:38:38.377
just the constant state of sort of precarity that people are in here.

00:38:38.577 --> 00:38:42.097
And so that is, you know, it is a very genuine, real challenge.

00:38:42.277 --> 00:38:49.257
And I think we're in a moment where the, you know, the majority of Americans

00:38:49.257 --> 00:38:53.497
believe that our political and economic systems are fundamentally broken, right?

00:38:53.657 --> 00:38:58.357
And so they don't want to just tinker, tinker with it, you know?

00:38:58.517 --> 00:39:04.337
And so if we can't take a step back and really provide an alternative vision

00:39:04.337 --> 00:39:09.757
for what this country and this economy and like this government can look like

00:39:09.757 --> 00:39:11.597
in a way that is aligned with our values,

00:39:11.597 --> 00:39:14.977
I think we will end up being lost, right?

00:39:15.117 --> 00:39:19.277
And so one of the interesting things for me is, you know, in Europe,

00:39:19.557 --> 00:39:22.717
some of the starting point for this, first of all, is a lot more related to

00:39:22.717 --> 00:39:23.817
the environmental crisis.

00:39:24.657 --> 00:39:29.357
And so the need for really thinking about, you know, we can't keep just producing

00:39:29.357 --> 00:39:32.737
and consuming at the rate we're doing and think that, you know,

00:39:32.837 --> 00:39:35.817
we're going to have a planet anymore to sustain us.

00:39:36.317 --> 00:39:43.317
And here it's a lot more focused on, and for good reason, like justice, equity,

00:39:43.917 --> 00:39:48.877
you know, like social sort of focus and considerations But there's also this

00:39:48.877 --> 00:39:51.977
growing recognition by a lot of even the welfare states, right,

00:39:52.057 --> 00:39:54.057
like the ones you were mentioning before, that.

00:39:54.813 --> 00:39:58.533
The standard approach of just growing the economy as quickly as possible so

00:39:58.533 --> 00:40:02.013
you can take some of that wealth through taxes to fix any of the damages that

00:40:02.013 --> 00:40:05.753
were done to people in the process is also not working anymore.

00:40:05.753 --> 00:40:10.373
Like even the richest countries in the world can't afford this approach anymore

00:40:10.373 --> 00:40:18.633
because the systems of production and consumption that we've designed are creating so many environmental,

00:40:19.353 --> 00:40:23.493
political, social crises, mental health crises,

00:40:23.953 --> 00:40:29.053
health crises, name it, that we're going to have to move upstream and get the

00:40:29.053 --> 00:40:33.493
economy to do more of the heavy lifting in terms of delivering on like social

00:40:33.493 --> 00:40:34.953
and ecological goals itself.

00:40:34.953 --> 00:40:40.313
And so for us, the idea of even having universal health care feels so far away, right?

00:40:40.433 --> 00:40:44.353
But like others are like, okay, well, actually, this is about how do we build

00:40:44.353 --> 00:40:48.393
economic structures that prevent this consolidation of wealth in the first place,

00:40:48.573 --> 00:40:52.893
ensure more equitable outcomes and are regenerative by design, right?

00:40:52.893 --> 00:41:00.033
And so the spectrum of possibilities, I think, are there, but how do we create

00:41:00.033 --> 00:41:06.553
a sense of enough security or safety for us to even start to imagine or dream them?

00:41:07.093 --> 00:41:11.453
Yeah. All right. So let's close this out. I wanted to ask you this question

00:41:11.453 --> 00:41:15.493
because in my research, I thought, hmm, this is interesting.

00:41:15.593 --> 00:41:20.653
Why is it more stressful to purchase something than to give something?

00:41:21.833 --> 00:41:24.613
Hmm yeah so this is actually this is based on one

00:41:24.613 --> 00:41:29.313
of my favorite neurological research

00:41:29.313 --> 00:41:32.093
papers that came out i mean it was from

00:41:32.093 --> 00:41:36.073
a little while ago but a lot of our economic like

00:41:36.073 --> 00:41:40.513
dominant economic thinking in the u.s which is like neoclassical economics is

00:41:40.513 --> 00:41:45.513
what we would call it sort of derives from and is all like this sort of hobbesian

00:41:45.513 --> 00:41:50.233
view of human nature that we're like inherently greedy and selfish and you know

00:41:50.233 --> 00:41:52.853
and that was sort of the major insight of Adam Smith that,

00:41:53.616 --> 00:41:57.876
if it is on the basis of our selfish instincts that we generate the profits

00:41:57.876 --> 00:42:00.776
that can be reinvested into an expansion of production.

00:42:01.196 --> 00:42:07.596
So in that way, greed is good, and it'll be the source of our prosperity,

00:42:08.136 --> 00:42:12.956
which was a huge deviation, obviously, from traditional religious perspectives

00:42:12.956 --> 00:42:14.256
and cultural perspectives.

00:42:15.456 --> 00:42:22.436
And even nowadays, I think a lot of what's animating that kind of like crypto-libertarian tech.

00:42:23.636 --> 00:42:26.276
Worldview in our is also sort of based on that sort

00:42:26.276 --> 00:42:29.236
of hopsian perspective and of course we we do

00:42:29.236 --> 00:42:33.256
have in all of us aspects of selfishness competitiveness

00:42:33.256 --> 00:42:37.076
but we also like the biggest

00:42:37.076 --> 00:42:42.356
like root oldest part of our brains we now know is actually altruistic so like

00:42:42.356 --> 00:42:48.036
what has allowed for our species real development is that we're pretty hardwired

00:42:48.036 --> 00:42:54.096
to want to give and to share and to you know, collaborate with one another.

00:42:54.596 --> 00:42:59.736
And so what this paper showed was that when you engage in like gift giving,

00:43:00.096 --> 00:43:03.996
which also from like anthropological study is what was really the dominant form

00:43:03.996 --> 00:43:06.236
of economics exchange for a very long time.

00:43:06.896 --> 00:43:13.316
It reduces our stress levels, it boosts our immune systems, and it reinforces social trust.

00:43:13.656 --> 00:43:17.936
But when you engage in a market transaction, which is seemingly very benign, right?

00:43:18.016 --> 00:43:22.936
It's almost all of our economic transactions now, The opposite happens.

00:43:22.936 --> 00:43:29.176
So it does boost our stress levels a little bit and suppresses our immune systems

00:43:29.176 --> 00:43:31.096
and reinforces social distrust.

00:43:31.376 --> 00:43:38.236
So there's something about the transactional nature of it that ends up having,

00:43:38.236 --> 00:43:42.976
yeah, sort of a negative impact on us in terms of our mental health.

00:43:42.976 --> 00:43:48.776
That doesn't mean that, you know, they're still just going out and buying something

00:43:48.776 --> 00:43:51.036
from an actual person is good, right?

00:43:51.336 --> 00:43:56.456
You know, there's like, there are benefits of engaging with strangers that come too.

00:43:56.736 --> 00:43:59.976
But this is something that we're learning more and more as, yeah,

00:44:00.116 --> 00:44:04.196
the evolution of like neurological science and things have been developing.

00:44:05.296 --> 00:44:12.836
Okay. Well, as you can tell, ladies and gentlemen, Amanda Janoo is a very brilliant woman.

00:44:12.976 --> 00:44:16.316
And we've only were able to really scratch the surface.

00:44:16.656 --> 00:44:20.656
It's just like, it's like, I see this well, I want to tap, but I can't really

00:44:20.656 --> 00:44:25.376
get all the equipment there because it's like, I don't have the time. I can't do it.

00:44:25.816 --> 00:44:28.596
But, you know, one of the rules is that once you've been on,

00:44:28.716 --> 00:44:31.656
you have an open invitation to come back. And I would love for you to come back

00:44:31.656 --> 00:44:40.476
on and continue this discussion because we need to look at where we're going here.

00:44:41.670 --> 00:44:46.130
You know, one of the, one of my big things is understanding history.

00:44:46.550 --> 00:44:50.590
And it's like, when you start hearing comparisons to like the Gilded Age and

00:44:50.590 --> 00:44:53.370
all that stuff, and I was like, yeah, that didn't end well. Right.

00:44:53.930 --> 00:44:56.730
And the roaring twenties, that didn't really end well.

00:44:57.010 --> 00:44:59.850
Right. And so, you know,

00:44:59.970 --> 00:45:06.730
I hate for us to always go back to stuff that didn't work for us,

00:45:06.730 --> 00:45:12.050
But it made a few people in power comfortable, you know, and just,

00:45:12.230 --> 00:45:14.730
you know, let the rest of us fight it out.

00:45:14.890 --> 00:45:21.150
So I always like to get people on who think differently, who think progressively

00:45:21.150 --> 00:45:26.630
and, you know, offer solutions to try to get us. And you're obviously one of those people.

00:45:26.870 --> 00:45:32.450
So, again, thank you for coming on. And I hope that you accept that invitation

00:45:32.450 --> 00:45:36.550
to come back. Well, thank you so much, Erik, for inviting me.

00:45:36.550 --> 00:45:39.350
I would love to chat more anytime.

00:45:39.630 --> 00:45:42.630
It's been an absolute joy, and I really appreciate it.

00:45:43.010 --> 00:45:46.430
All right. All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

00:45:47.440 --> 00:46:05.840
Music.

00:46:05.688 --> 00:46:12.268
All right, and we are back. And so now it's time for my next guest, Dr. Karida Brown.

00:46:12.748 --> 00:46:17.288
Dr. Karida Brown is a sociologist, professor, oral historian,

00:46:17.308 --> 00:46:23.228
and public intellectual whose research centers on the anthologies of systemic

00:46:23.228 --> 00:46:26.528
racism and the fullness of Black life.

00:46:26.908 --> 00:46:32.868
An educator, public speaker, author, and humanist, she is known for empowering

00:46:32.868 --> 00:46:39.608
her readership, students, and organizations to be active participants in driving equity and justice.

00:46:40.028 --> 00:46:46.128
Dr. Brown's body of work combines her expertise in data-driven social science

00:46:46.128 --> 00:46:52.688
research, her vast experience in navigating complex global organizations, and her love of the arts.

00:46:52.968 --> 00:46:57.828
These insights bring actionable and reparative knowledge to the public.

00:46:58.288 --> 00:47:02.128
Dr. Brown graduated from Uniondale High School in Long Island,

00:47:02.248 --> 00:47:07.908
New York, and attended Temple University in Philadelphia, from which she graduated

00:47:07.908 --> 00:47:11.968
with a bachelor's of business administration in risk management and insurance.

00:47:12.408 --> 00:47:15.608
After a six-year career in the commercial insurance industry,

00:47:15.768 --> 00:47:20.268
Brown returned to school and subsequently earned a master's in government administration

00:47:20.268 --> 00:47:25.528
from the University of Pennsylvania and a PhD in sociology from Brown University.

00:47:25.948 --> 00:47:31.688
She is a professor of sociology at Emory University, where she teaches undergraduate

00:47:31.688 --> 00:47:35.808
and graduate courses on race and racism, sports and society,

00:47:36.008 --> 00:47:39.308
and historical archival methods.

00:47:40.188 --> 00:47:45.388
In addition to her books, her research is published in various peer-reviewed

00:47:45.388 --> 00:47:50.088
academic journals, such as the American Journal of Cultural Sociology,

00:47:50.588 --> 00:47:54.848
Social Cultures, and the Du Bois Review. Dr.

00:47:54.988 --> 00:47:59.488
Brown is a Fulbright Scholar, and her international research has been supported

00:47:59.488 --> 00:48:03.628
by national foundations such as the Andrew W.

00:48:03.888 --> 00:48:06.928
Mellon Foundation and the Hellman Fellows Fund.

00:48:07.912 --> 00:48:12.952
Brown currently serves on the board of the Obama Presidency Oral History Project.

00:48:13.412 --> 00:48:18.572
She has been featured in such media outlets as Politico, Forbes,

00:48:19.212 --> 00:48:23.592
the LA Times, Sports Illustrated, and WNC.

00:48:27.112 --> 00:48:32.872
Literary Agency Serendipity, forgive me for that, Literary Agency Serendipity

00:48:32.872 --> 00:48:38.432
represents her for book projects, and Knowledge Arts Holdings manages her speaking engagements.

00:48:39.392 --> 00:48:44.412
Brown lives in Atlanta, Georgia with her husband, fine artist and illustrator,

00:48:44.632 --> 00:48:48.432
Charly Palmer, and their two pugs, Pugsley and Blue.

00:48:49.112 --> 00:48:53.132
And I had the privilege of interviewing Dr.

00:48:53.272 --> 00:48:57.672
Brown for her and her husband's collaboration, the New Brownie book,

00:48:58.352 --> 00:49:03.392
New Brownies book, which won an NAACP award, right?

00:49:04.272 --> 00:49:09.432
And so now we're going to talk about her new book, The Battle for the Black Mind.

00:49:09.812 --> 00:49:16.732
So we're hoping that, you know, her appearance on this podcast helps her win

00:49:16.732 --> 00:49:17.832
an award for that one too.

00:49:18.012 --> 00:49:22.192
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:49:22.192 --> 00:49:25.532
on this podcast, Dr. Karida Brown.

00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:37.040
Music.

00:49:36.881 --> 00:49:40.101
Dr. Karida Brown. How you doing, sister? You doing good?

00:49:40.661 --> 00:49:45.621
I'm doing great, and it's so good to be back. Well, I'm glad to have you back,

00:49:45.861 --> 00:49:48.741
and this time you're doing it solo.

00:49:48.921 --> 00:49:51.721
You're not doing it with your partner, Charly, but tell him hi for me.

00:49:51.841 --> 00:49:57.061
I greatly appreciate him and the support that he gives you and the support that

00:49:57.061 --> 00:50:01.161
both of you have given me by gracing me with y'all's presence.

00:50:01.821 --> 00:50:05.561
And hopefully we can have some magic again. The last time you was on the show,

00:50:05.561 --> 00:50:10.181
You had written the new Brownies book, and you won an award for that.

00:50:10.821 --> 00:50:15.941
We did. And then I messed around and got nominated for an award myself.

00:50:16.041 --> 00:50:21.041
So hopefully there's a correlation. So let's see if we can do that again.

00:50:21.321 --> 00:50:26.801
I believe so. That was the NAACP Image Award,

00:50:26.801 --> 00:50:33.361
and we won in the category of Outstanding Nonfiction Literature,

00:50:33.361 --> 00:50:38.721
which that award is also held by the Barack Hussein Obama,

00:50:39.041 --> 00:50:41.461
Tony Morrison, and Maya Angelou.

00:50:41.601 --> 00:50:44.841
And I credit that to our appearance on your show, Erik.

00:50:45.161 --> 00:50:48.201
Well, I'll take all that. Thank you so much.

00:50:48.421 --> 00:50:52.261
But yeah, that's some pretty heady company to be a part of.

00:50:52.441 --> 00:50:55.901
And hopefully you'll do it again. And I think this book, The Battle for the

00:50:55.901 --> 00:51:01.281
Black Mind, is certainly worthy of being considered. And we're going to dive

00:51:01.281 --> 00:51:05.661
into the book. and a lot of things you've covered in the book primarily.

00:51:06.101 --> 00:51:11.081
But first, we're going to do what I normally do with an icebreaker is that I'm

00:51:11.081 --> 00:51:15.281
going to throw a quote at you, and then I want you to give me your response.

00:51:15.981 --> 00:51:22.121
Every political movement starts with radical imagination. What does that quote mean to you?

00:51:22.701 --> 00:51:24.721
It means freedom dream.

00:51:25.641 --> 00:51:33.181
That means that before we put foot to ground, before we come up with a chant

00:51:33.181 --> 00:51:36.961
to carry a movement, before we make our demands,

00:51:37.261 --> 00:51:43.521
before we actually put our bodies into a movement, it starts with freedom dreaming.

00:51:43.721 --> 00:51:50.261
And this is something that Black Americans have cultivated and perfected over

00:51:50.261 --> 00:51:54.081
the many, many generations we've been here in these United States.

00:51:54.921 --> 00:51:58.401
Political imagination is necessary to,

00:51:59.201 --> 00:52:05.941
see a world that doesn't yet exist, okay, in reality or in your current reality,

00:52:05.941 --> 00:52:12.441
but to strive towards that thing as though it does, as though it could, as though it will.

00:52:12.581 --> 00:52:15.461
And that's what political imagination means to me.

00:52:16.041 --> 00:52:20.821
Yeah. All right. Now I've added a new feature in the icebreaker section called 20 questions.

00:52:21.281 --> 00:52:28.201
Oh, I like that. Okay. So I need you to give me a number between one and 20. 17. Okay.

00:52:28.941 --> 00:52:36.321
What's something about people who see the world differently than you that you've come to appreciate?

00:52:38.718 --> 00:52:43.298
Ask one more time. Okay, hold on. I got to pull it back up.

00:52:43.738 --> 00:52:50.398
What's something about people who see the world differently than you that you've come to appreciate?

00:52:50.818 --> 00:52:56.858
Oh, I appreciate people who can see the tree in front of them instead of just

00:52:56.858 --> 00:53:02.638
the forest first, because I'm a forest thinker and I'll see the big idea and

00:53:02.638 --> 00:53:05.238
where we're going for the end game.

00:53:05.238 --> 00:53:10.398
But I'm not so, it's not my first instinct to then think of the thousand and

00:53:10.398 --> 00:53:12.898
one things that need to happen to get to that end game.

00:53:13.078 --> 00:53:16.958
And I realized there are people who just naturally think like that.

00:53:17.078 --> 00:53:23.118
And I really, really appreciate, shout out to my folks who are not only detail oriented,

00:53:23.398 --> 00:53:28.878
but really can get down to the granular step-by-step of how to make a big complex

00:53:28.878 --> 00:53:32.158
outcome happen at the ground level.

00:53:32.318 --> 00:53:38.878
And I appreciate folks who can do that. Yeah, I had one of my pastors in Jackson.

00:53:39.318 --> 00:53:44.178
I used to work for one of my pastors in Jackson and we had that kind of relationship.

00:53:44.618 --> 00:53:48.238
Real quick story. He he wanted to buy this lake.

00:53:48.538 --> 00:53:53.058
Right. Somebody was offering a lake for the church to have to do stuff.

00:53:53.238 --> 00:53:57.978
And he sold me all this. Oh, we can have the church picnic and we can have a

00:53:57.978 --> 00:54:02.438
camp and all this stuff. and I said, pastor, how much is the insurance going to be?

00:54:02.898 --> 00:54:07.898
And he said, what? I said, bro, you're going to have a lake.

00:54:08.118 --> 00:54:09.358
People are going to get out there and swim.

00:54:10.298 --> 00:54:16.258
I'm not saying anything bad is going to happen, but did you think about that? And he was like, oh no.

00:54:16.518 --> 00:54:18.898
And so we just started going over the thing.

00:54:19.278 --> 00:54:22.418
Eventually he turned it down and I told him, I didn't want you to turn it down,

00:54:22.418 --> 00:54:24.798
but those are the kinds of things you think about.

00:54:24.958 --> 00:54:28.858
So when When you when you gave that answer, that made me think about that moment

00:54:28.858 --> 00:54:33.678
because people that have vision have to have people to kind of say,

00:54:33.798 --> 00:54:38.038
OK, I see where you want to go, but let's let's chart that path.

00:54:38.218 --> 00:54:40.278
So I'm glad that you appreciate those kind of folks.

00:54:40.558 --> 00:54:46.478
And shout out to my business manager, R.J. Miller, because he certainly is that for me.

00:54:46.958 --> 00:54:51.618
I would just be out here raggedy and wild without him because,

00:54:51.958 --> 00:54:56.118
you know, my inclination is to I'm thinking big. My head is in the clouds.

00:54:56.358 --> 00:55:01.138
I'm saying yes to everything. He's like, slow down there, Karida. We ain't doing all that.

00:55:01.358 --> 00:55:04.898
You know, how are we going to do all of this?

00:55:05.038 --> 00:55:10.938
And, you know, that has brought a measure to my life that's allowed me to refine the work that I do.

00:55:11.618 --> 00:55:16.418
Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to RJ for my end, too. All right, let's get into the book a little bit.

00:55:16.598 --> 00:55:23.118
Why is it important to pursue liberation through knowledge in a system designed to oppress it?

00:55:23.898 --> 00:55:26.878
Knowledge is power, and everybody knows that.

00:55:27.118 --> 00:55:31.958
The oppressed certainly are keenly aware of that. And in this case,

00:55:32.078 --> 00:55:34.818
in the book that I wrote, The Battle for the Black Mind.

00:55:36.027 --> 00:55:42.047
Focuses on the history of Black education in the United States from emancipation

00:55:42.047 --> 00:55:44.447
through Brown versus Board of Education.

00:55:44.567 --> 00:55:50.307
This was certainly the case where African Americans have always been keenly

00:55:50.307 --> 00:55:52.907
aware that knowledge is power.

00:55:52.907 --> 00:55:59.447
It is a part of the toolkit for our long freedom struggle towards liberation

00:55:59.447 --> 00:56:03.647
and equity, but also your oppressors,

00:56:03.847 --> 00:56:09.667
those who uphold these systems of power, oppression, and exclusion are all too

00:56:09.667 --> 00:56:13.547
keenly aware of that reality as well, that knowledge is power.

00:56:14.107 --> 00:56:20.807
And therefore you see then, as you see now, direct attempt to manipulate.

00:56:21.847 --> 00:56:28.907
Adulterate, dilute the whole damn American education system, okay?

00:56:29.127 --> 00:56:37.967
This is why we see today an attack not just on a school or a type of school or a region of schools.

00:56:38.307 --> 00:56:42.567
No, they're going at the whole system and our whole knowledge infrastructure

00:56:42.567 --> 00:56:49.567
at the national level, from our schools, to our libraries, to our museums, to data sets, okay?

00:56:50.147 --> 00:56:56.747
We've seen this once before in the past during Jim Crow, during time where we

00:56:56.747 --> 00:57:02.207
had over a century of segregated and unequal education in this country.

00:57:02.447 --> 00:57:06.307
But just back then, it was just reserved for black and brown folks.

00:57:06.487 --> 00:57:08.087
Now it's coming for everybody.

00:57:08.987 --> 00:57:15.487
Yeah. So prior to the Civil War, I want you to tell folks how perilous was it

00:57:15.487 --> 00:57:18.087
for a black person to be educated?

00:57:18.787 --> 00:57:20.827
Oh, let me tell you something.

00:57:22.507 --> 00:57:26.467
The black mind was a matter of national security.

00:57:26.747 --> 00:57:36.767
OK, so during slavery, so prior to the Civil War, it was illegal in every state across the U.S.

00:57:36.827 --> 00:57:40.367
South for a black person to learn how to read and write.

00:57:41.401 --> 00:57:46.001
Learn how to read and write. There were laws on the books in some states that

00:57:46.001 --> 00:57:53.681
made it illegal for Black people to even gather with the intention of learning, right?

00:57:54.081 --> 00:58:02.461
So, and these were not only state laws, which they were, but it also was the custom of the day.

00:58:02.701 --> 00:58:10.561
So, any white person could enforce these rules in any way that they wanted their women fancy.

00:58:10.741 --> 00:58:17.481
So which made education, a Black person acquiring an education back then,

00:58:17.681 --> 00:58:21.321
a life or death situation, you literally could be killed.

00:58:21.881 --> 00:58:29.401
Okay, for being suspected of not only attaining that kind of knowledge yourself, but passing it on.

00:58:29.401 --> 00:58:35.021
This is a part of why after Nat Turner's rebellion,

00:58:35.541 --> 00:58:41.681
okay, when he organized and galvanized a group of enslaved Black folks to revolt

00:58:41.681 --> 00:58:50.521
and to try to wrench their freedom, they went ahead and killed a bunch of slave owners and overseers.

00:58:50.521 --> 00:58:54.481
In that process, not only was Nat Turner executed,

00:58:54.841 --> 00:59:01.061
but the white South got together right after that and said and pointed to the

00:59:01.061 --> 00:59:08.501
fact that Nat Turner was literate as the reason for why he was able to organize that revolt,

00:59:08.741 --> 00:59:13.321
which which made them entrench themselves even more in these laws to make it

00:59:13.321 --> 00:59:16.061
illegal for black folks to read and write. Yeah.

00:59:17.041 --> 00:59:24.841
So how does Project 2025 with today's book bans attack on the public schools

00:59:24.841 --> 00:59:28.321
and moves to defund race conscious education?

00:59:28.501 --> 00:59:32.921
How does that echo the past? in so many ways that it rhymes,

00:59:33.161 --> 00:59:35.821
it's on beat. Let's say it like that, okay?

00:59:36.201 --> 00:59:42.121
So, and I'll refer everyone listening to, go ahead and download Project 2025

00:59:42.121 --> 00:59:48.461
because it's free and publicly available on the internet and pull chapter 11

00:59:48.461 --> 00:59:50.261
because that is the chapter that.

00:59:51.268 --> 00:59:57.048
Covers their plan for the American education system. And it is unambiguous.

00:59:57.428 --> 01:00:05.268
The plan is to defund the entire American public education system and to move

01:00:05.268 --> 01:00:10.568
us to a model of mass privatization where every school is in some way,

01:00:10.688 --> 01:00:12.768
shape, or form privatized.

01:00:12.908 --> 01:00:21.188
There are only right now four major charter school conglomerates in the country

01:00:21.188 --> 01:00:26.568
that have the lion's share of the education sector under lock right now.

01:00:26.708 --> 01:00:35.368
So you can just imagine what that portents for those of us who find themselves

01:00:35.368 --> 01:00:37.568
on the other side of privilege in this country.

01:00:38.268 --> 01:00:44.008
When you think about mass privatization, I want you to end states' rights,

01:00:44.368 --> 01:00:52.188
which are the two rhetorical pillars that they're using to seduce folks into buying into this with.

01:00:52.188 --> 01:00:59.308
Those are the same rallying cries that were used during the Reconstruction era, okay?

01:00:59.568 --> 01:01:06.788
This is what Southern states' folks and bureaucrats and industry leaders pressured

01:01:06.788 --> 01:01:08.468
the United States governments towards.

01:01:08.588 --> 01:01:14.928
We want states' rights and we want to have mass privatization.

01:01:15.448 --> 01:01:20.428
Well, when you hear states' rights, today or back then, I want you to always

01:01:20.428 --> 01:01:25.268
think states' rights to do what and to whom, okay?

01:01:25.488 --> 01:01:29.388
And when you hear calls towards mass privatization of public goods,

01:01:29.588 --> 01:01:33.868
like education, I want you to think about how did that work out for your water?

01:01:34.728 --> 01:01:38.128
Eric, when you were growing up, did you pay for water? No, ma'am.

01:01:38.971 --> 01:01:43.571
Was the water still good? Yes, ma'am. Did it hydrate you? Yes, ma'am.

01:01:44.251 --> 01:01:48.871
Is there something that you needed for life to sustain yourself? Yes, ma'am.

01:01:49.551 --> 01:01:53.931
Today, can you go to your hose and drink that water? Yes, ma'am.

01:01:54.651 --> 01:01:57.351
Okay, well, you can't. I can't drink out of my hose, okay?

01:01:59.991 --> 01:02:04.771
We're in a situation where we pay for water because it's privatized.

01:02:05.211 --> 01:02:10.191
Ask how that's working out for our health care system. These things create structures

01:02:10.191 --> 01:02:12.431
and systems of haves and have-nots.

01:02:12.691 --> 01:02:15.851
That's what's coming for our education system now.

01:02:15.991 --> 01:02:20.411
But we can see that this has happened before, during Jim Crow,

01:02:20.671 --> 01:02:27.111
to African-Americans. So that's why The Battle for the Black Mind is a book for everybody. Why?

01:02:27.291 --> 01:02:30.111
Because, number one, Black folks have been through this before.

01:02:30.111 --> 01:02:36.211
We need to remember our stories and remember the blueprints that our ancestors

01:02:36.211 --> 01:02:41.011
and elders gave us and how they survived and thrived through these systems.

01:02:41.251 --> 01:02:47.091
Because, I mean, they did the damn thing. But also non-Black folks need to tap

01:02:47.091 --> 01:02:48.611
into these stories. Why?

01:02:48.831 --> 01:02:53.451
Because they're going to have to roll up their sleeves too, because this system,

01:02:53.651 --> 01:02:56.631
this time is coming for everybody.

01:02:56.951 --> 01:03:05.231
And we're going to be able to organize, get in community, and save this democracy. Yeah.

01:03:05.811 --> 01:03:09.231
All right. So I'm going to get back a little more into the book because you

01:03:09.231 --> 01:03:15.651
touched on a lot of things and it reminded me of my work in the legislature.

01:03:15.651 --> 01:03:21.511
I never served on an education committee, but education was one of my big issues,

01:03:21.671 --> 01:03:23.671
especially educating our children, right?

01:03:24.211 --> 01:03:32.191
So explain the Hampton idea. And how do you think modern education still embraces that?

01:03:33.591 --> 01:03:38.991
Okay. So, and this is something that I cover extensively throughout Battle for

01:03:38.991 --> 01:03:45.131
the Black Mind, these two competing educational ideologies.

01:03:45.391 --> 01:03:51.911
One was the industrial education model, which Erik, you're referring to the Hampton idea. This was,

01:03:52.781 --> 01:03:59.461
You know, Hampton and Tuskegee as sibling institutions really championed early

01:03:59.461 --> 01:04:01.781
on this industrial education idea.

01:04:02.101 --> 01:04:05.721
The book goes a lot into why and who was behind that.

01:04:05.861 --> 01:04:11.441
But it really was grounded in this idea that Black education,

01:04:11.921 --> 01:04:16.041
the curricula should be adapted just for Black Americans,

01:04:16.541 --> 01:04:23.221
a special curricula that focused on agricultural labor and domestic service

01:04:23.221 --> 01:04:25.441
and the teaching thereof.

01:04:25.601 --> 01:04:30.961
So training a generation of teachers who would then go out through schools throughout

01:04:30.961 --> 01:04:36.741
the South, Black schools, and teach these skills to local communities and children.

01:04:37.821 --> 01:04:44.501
You know, and the industrial education model really was also promoting a depoliticized

01:04:44.501 --> 01:04:48.481
educational curricula, meaning that it also emphasized,

01:04:48.701 --> 01:04:53.281
I'll be crude about it, to do and not think,

01:04:53.801 --> 01:05:01.361
to dissuade African-Americans from pushing for enfranchisement,

01:05:01.641 --> 01:05:04.901
for social equality, for civil rights.

01:05:05.161 --> 01:05:11.001
So rooted in those ideals, and then you had the liberal education model,

01:05:11.001 --> 01:05:13.821
which looked a lot like what you would think

01:05:13.821 --> 01:05:17.781
about for any liberal arts education today that yeah

01:05:17.781 --> 01:05:20.981
said okay yeah we need vocational training

01:05:20.981 --> 01:05:23.821
but we also need training in the

01:05:23.821 --> 01:05:30.261
arts and philosophy and engineering architecture beans greens potatoes tomatoes

01:05:30.261 --> 01:05:37.021
we need all of it but what what was underlying this liberal education model

01:05:37.021 --> 01:05:41.181
was not just the outcome or the transaction of education,

01:05:41.181 --> 01:05:47.481
it really was pointing to what are the philosophical aims of education about

01:05:47.481 --> 01:05:50.741
cultivating citizens, right?

01:05:51.001 --> 01:05:52.101
Who would be.

01:05:53.501 --> 01:05:57.901
Have a certain character and sensibility for showing up in society.

01:05:58.121 --> 01:06:01.361
How, you know, how are we supposed to be as citizens?

01:06:01.661 --> 01:06:07.321
So these were competing ideals that you saw many, many black segregated schools

01:06:07.321 --> 01:06:11.081
throughout the Jim Crow South, you know, being pulled,

01:06:11.501 --> 01:06:18.481
pushed and tugged in the, to pick a side between this industrial model or this liberal model.

01:06:19.201 --> 01:06:25.001
Yeah. And, you know, that was, That was one of my concerns. We had a young man

01:06:25.001 --> 01:06:28.901
become the superintendent of education in state of Mississippi.

01:06:29.061 --> 01:06:35.761
At that time, he was the youngest superintendent, not only in our state history, but in the country.

01:06:36.081 --> 01:06:39.501
And now I think he's the president of the University of Nebraska or something.

01:06:39.861 --> 01:06:46.521
He's moved on. But the biggest criticism I had was he came in to speak to the

01:06:46.521 --> 01:06:51.021
Black Caucus about this education model where we want, we want,

01:06:51.281 --> 01:06:53.541
people in your district to be able to get a job.

01:06:54.061 --> 01:06:59.721
And I was like, you know, obviously you, you never watched Star Trek.

01:06:59.921 --> 01:07:03.141
You have no idea. It's like, I want my kid to be able to think,

01:07:03.141 --> 01:07:05.181
I don't want them to play hopscotch.

01:07:05.481 --> 01:07:09.641
I want them to be able to design the hopscotch board. Thank you.

01:07:10.061 --> 01:07:14.941
And so it was like, he didn't like me too much, but you know,

01:07:15.061 --> 01:07:18.701
but that when you started breaking it down like that, and then of course the

01:07:18.701 --> 01:07:22.481
connection with Hampton and Tuskegee, is the fact that Booker T.

01:07:22.621 --> 01:07:26.861
Washington went to Hampton and then he started Tuskegee.

01:07:27.041 --> 01:07:30.581
So he carried what he had learned at Hampton and basically created,

01:07:30.701 --> 01:07:35.881
because Hampton was, I think it was a white guy that was the initial president

01:07:35.881 --> 01:07:37.941
of Hampton. Samuel Chapman Armstrong.

01:07:38.881 --> 01:07:46.941
And so Booker T. took that model and made a school Tuskegee based off of that same mindset.

01:07:46.961 --> 01:07:50.501
And that's why him and Du Bois class and all that stuff.

01:07:50.641 --> 01:07:55.621
But anyway, and you get into all that in the book. So that's why I really, really enjoyed that.

01:07:55.941 --> 01:08:00.621
Why was white philanthropy both a gift and a gilded cage?

01:08:00.941 --> 01:08:05.921
So my aunties now always had this saying, all money ain't good money.

01:08:06.481 --> 01:08:13.621
And that is something that was a clear theme throughout this book and the analysis

01:08:13.621 --> 01:08:15.201
and battle for the black mind.

01:08:15.201 --> 01:08:20.601
White philanthropy in the early days, one thing that's important to note,

01:08:20.941 --> 01:08:23.101
fun fact, is that white philanthropy,

01:08:23.501 --> 01:08:30.841
big philanthropy like we know it today, was founded on an attempt to repair

01:08:30.841 --> 01:08:35.801
and capture the American education system in the South, right?

01:08:35.801 --> 01:08:42.861
After the Civil War, there was no public school in the U.S.

01:08:43.181 --> 01:08:47.081
South. That's an important data point. What that means is that there was no

01:08:47.081 --> 01:08:49.981
public school system for white or black children.

01:08:50.981 --> 01:08:55.221
So you have a region of the country that has this clean slate.

01:08:55.641 --> 01:09:04.101
You have 4 million newly freed African-Americans who are racing to get themselves some education.

01:09:04.461 --> 01:09:10.161
Black folks are building schools inside of churches and makeshift buildings

01:09:10.161 --> 01:09:15.381
in their communities, doing anything to grab any piece of education,

01:09:15.681 --> 01:09:17.441
formal education that they possibly can.

01:09:17.441 --> 01:09:20.941
And the Freedmen's Bureau was helping them to build schools,

01:09:20.981 --> 01:09:27.961
was investing a significant amount of money into Black education during Reconstruction.

01:09:28.421 --> 01:09:35.281
Okay, so right after the fall of Reconstruction, when Jim Crow sweeps in, states' rights,

01:09:35.601 --> 01:09:41.701
okay, you see that support dwindle from not only the federal government through

01:09:41.701 --> 01:09:44.961
the Freedmen's Bureau, but also Southern states.

01:09:44.961 --> 01:09:49.021
Even though African Americans were paying into the tax system.

01:09:49.921 --> 01:09:55.961
Southern boards of education refused to allocate equitable resources to fund

01:09:55.961 --> 01:09:59.681
public black schools. So who came and saved the day?

01:09:59.961 --> 01:10:02.021
Oftentimes it was big philanthropy.

01:10:02.441 --> 01:10:07.201
They would come in and fund many, many black schools, ones that we still know

01:10:07.201 --> 01:10:12.941
of today, including Atlanta University, which is now Clark Atlanta University, Hampton,

01:10:13.441 --> 01:10:19.041
Tuskegee, but thousands of elementary schools as well throughout the South.

01:10:19.041 --> 01:10:24.861
However, these dollars came with thick strings attached Namely,

01:10:25.081 --> 01:10:30.401
most of these philanthropies supported that industrial education model And the

01:10:30.401 --> 01:10:35.241
deal went like this, Erik If you take these dollars, black principal,

01:10:35.661 --> 01:10:42.541
black teacher, black school founder You must, we insist that you adopt this

01:10:42.541 --> 01:10:44.221
curricula for your students.

01:10:45.409 --> 01:10:50.989
And for Black school founders who were running private schools.

01:10:51.229 --> 01:10:55.149
Hey, y'all, during this time, during the early era of Jim Crow,

01:10:55.429 --> 01:10:59.269
the majority of Black segregated schools were private schools.

01:10:59.549 --> 01:11:01.689
They relied on these dollars.

01:11:02.129 --> 01:11:07.109
You stuck between a rock and a hard place. You either take this compromise or

01:11:07.109 --> 01:11:11.989
your school could go out of business and there would be no school for the Black

01:11:11.989 --> 01:11:16.209
children in your community to attend. So this was the predicament.

01:11:16.789 --> 01:11:23.149
African-Americans were keenly aware of the, you know, thorny deal and did a

01:11:23.149 --> 01:11:25.129
lot to navigate around that.

01:11:25.289 --> 01:11:29.309
And I talk about that in the book. But nonetheless, this was what we were up

01:11:29.309 --> 01:11:31.669
against back then. Yeah.

01:11:32.029 --> 01:11:38.829
And, you know, it was like when you mentioned about the no public schools in

01:11:38.829 --> 01:11:42.369
the South, that was the reason why during Reconstruction,

01:11:42.689 --> 01:11:48.109
many of the state legislatures, once they became majority black during that time,

01:11:48.509 --> 01:11:52.769
they made those made public education a constitutional right. Right.

01:11:53.309 --> 01:11:58.329
Yeah. And that was one of the things that even even to this present day,

01:11:58.589 --> 01:12:01.969
when states have been trying to tinker with that in the South,

01:12:02.349 --> 01:12:07.229
they haven't messed with that constitutional right because that benefited the white children, too.

01:12:07.649 --> 01:12:12.689
Right. And then you talking about there was one particular organization,

01:12:12.929 --> 01:12:17.309
the American Missionary Association, who who had a lot of school.

01:12:17.309 --> 01:12:20.429
Jackson State, where I went to school, was an AMA school.

01:12:21.309 --> 01:12:27.429
And there was a president named Jacob Reddix made a decision that,

01:12:27.429 --> 01:12:32.869
you know, during the Depression, a lot of those schools suffered because everybody

01:12:32.869 --> 01:12:35.429
was broke in the United States during the Depression.

01:12:36.209 --> 01:12:40.929
And so, you know, Jackson State, right at right about the time of World War

01:12:40.929 --> 01:12:47.849
One, I mean, World War Two, made the decision to say, OK, we're going to be a state school.

01:12:48.509 --> 01:12:53.349
Now, that had a short term bad impact during the civil rights movement because

01:12:53.349 --> 01:12:56.409
you couldn't have any demonstrations or any rallies there.

01:12:56.649 --> 01:13:01.229
Everybody had to go to Tougaloo because it was too private. And that was an AMA school, too.

01:13:01.229 --> 01:13:08.029
But in the long term, Jackson State was able to grow because now it's like,

01:13:08.189 --> 01:13:13.289
well, we can get some tax dollars to sustain our mission other than just tuition.

01:13:13.689 --> 01:13:17.629
Right. And that was a hard decision for black presidents to make.

01:13:17.789 --> 01:13:25.669
And so, you know, it's like, like I said, the beauty of history is you get the

01:13:25.669 --> 01:13:31.729
map going backwards. You figure out where you came from and how you got to this point.

01:13:31.829 --> 01:13:36.669
And it's so, so important. So that's why, again, I'm really glad that you wrote

01:13:36.669 --> 01:13:39.609
this book. And I just want to pick up on that point, Erik.

01:13:39.929 --> 01:13:42.629
We got to be able to reverse engineer this thing.

01:13:43.636 --> 01:13:48.016
I think that is so important. And I love that you made that keen insight.

01:13:48.276 --> 01:13:53.996
We got to know how power moves. We got to know how systems work.

01:13:54.176 --> 01:13:58.556
And history is our best example for that.

01:13:58.756 --> 01:14:03.656
When we look back to history, we can reverse engineer not only how these systems

01:14:03.656 --> 01:14:10.116
are put together, the architecture of them, but also all the actors in a system.

01:14:10.316 --> 01:14:14.156
Because rarely is it just the boogeyman that you see at top.

01:14:14.676 --> 01:14:18.596
Today, I'll say, you know, that man who's occupying the White House.

01:14:18.896 --> 01:14:23.316
Okay. It's really just that figure. It's the whole brigade.

01:14:23.736 --> 01:14:29.896
It's the thousand folks who are rank and file, who are keeping the system going.

01:14:29.896 --> 01:14:34.676
So we should understand how that works at every level. Okay.

01:14:35.796 --> 01:14:42.656
What's the short game and what's the long game? Because then we can move wiser. Yeah.

01:14:43.296 --> 01:14:47.816
All right. So I wanted to, there's a particular person in the book.

01:14:47.996 --> 01:14:50.736
You introduced us to Lucy Craft

01:14:50.736 --> 01:14:55.756
Laney in chapter one, and then you devote chapter four primarily to her.

01:14:56.136 --> 01:15:00.096
Explain her contribution to the advancement of Black education.

01:15:00.356 --> 01:15:06.636
Oh, wow. Thank you. Miss Lucy Craft Laney, born in 1854 in Georgia,

01:15:06.936 --> 01:15:09.196
so during slavery, okay?

01:15:09.456 --> 01:15:11.496
But Lucy was born free.

01:15:11.756 --> 01:15:17.036
Why? Because her parents were somehow able to buy their freedom and therefore

01:15:17.036 --> 01:15:22.096
afford Lucy a different life than most Black children experienced during that time.

01:15:22.416 --> 01:15:26.416
As a result, Miss Lucy was able to learn to read and write.

01:15:26.556 --> 01:15:31.876
She was able to attend not only elementary school, but she went up through high school, okay?

01:15:32.216 --> 01:15:38.876
And then after the Civil War, after emancipation, she became a member of the

01:15:38.876 --> 01:15:41.956
first graduating class of Atlanta University.

01:15:42.988 --> 01:15:48.948
Which is now Clark Atlanta. So before W.E.B. Du Bois joins the faculty, Lucy is there.

01:15:49.128 --> 01:15:52.828
She earned her degree and got a teaching certificate.

01:15:53.368 --> 01:15:58.308
Ms. Lucy taught for almost a decade in the public school system in Georgia.

01:15:58.688 --> 01:16:06.628
And from that experience, she walked away with conclusively believing that Black minds,

01:16:07.188 --> 01:16:11.488
Black children were not safe yet in the hands of the state,

01:16:11.508 --> 01:16:16.068
that the public school system was not going to do right by Black children,

01:16:16.068 --> 01:16:23.388
so Miss Lucy went ahead in 1881 and founded her own private school in Augusta, Georgia,

01:16:23.688 --> 01:16:31.508
which became the Haynes Industrial Institute that served thousands of African-American youth.

01:16:31.688 --> 01:16:37.608
She starts that school in a basement of a church with five children enrolled first year.

01:16:38.368 --> 01:16:42.908
By year two, she's got 234 students enrolled.

01:16:43.188 --> 01:16:47.568
Just imagine this. This wasn't just kids from Augusta, Black.

01:16:48.417 --> 01:16:52.397
Families started to hear about this woman, this educated Black woman who had

01:16:52.397 --> 01:16:54.397
this school all over the South.

01:16:54.537 --> 01:16:58.557
So they would send their kids to go board at the Haynes Institute.

01:16:58.857 --> 01:17:03.777
This is how hungry African-Americans were for education, okay?

01:17:04.537 --> 01:17:09.057
Miss Lucy's school stays open for a little over half a century.

01:17:09.337 --> 01:17:14.837
She builds that thing out from an elementary school to a K-12 institution,

01:17:14.837 --> 01:17:21.037
also builds the first Black nursing school in the state of Georgia on that campus.

01:17:21.297 --> 01:17:26.097
Her school campus takes up two city blocks in downtown Augusta,

01:17:26.217 --> 01:17:32.777
and she's fundraising for this school the whole time, paying a staff of educators.

01:17:33.197 --> 01:17:40.117
Offering an education that would be analogous to an international baccalaureate degree today.

01:17:40.317 --> 01:17:45.937
Her school curricula offered everything from French, Latin, Greek,

01:17:46.217 --> 01:17:49.517
literature, world history, sociology, physics.

01:17:49.877 --> 01:17:56.657
She also offered courses in agriculture, cosmetology, carpentry. She did it all, okay?

01:17:56.977 --> 01:18:02.957
This was when you talked about political imagination and freedom dreams,

01:18:03.357 --> 01:18:09.577
Miss Lucy put that thing into action and showed us what it looks like for Black

01:18:09.577 --> 01:18:13.037
people to build our own institutions, to have vision.

01:18:13.197 --> 01:18:18.437
She did this in the Jim Crow South as a dark-skinned Black woman.

01:18:18.577 --> 01:18:23.017
So don't come telling me that we're too overwhelmed to do anything now,

01:18:23.137 --> 01:18:28.297
or that this problem is too big for us to think and act and move through,

01:18:28.357 --> 01:18:34.277
because I know the stories of our ancestors, and I want you to know them too. All right.

01:18:34.517 --> 01:18:40.537
So the last chapter gets its title from the Bob Marley song, Small Axe.

01:18:40.577 --> 01:18:45.597
What was the motivation behind utilizing that song?

01:18:46.751 --> 01:18:52.871
You know, I wrote that last chapter of the book the day after this presidential election.

01:18:53.551 --> 01:19:01.051
And I channeled all of my emotions, which included heartbreak and disappointment,

01:19:01.051 --> 01:19:08.491
but also my infinite belief in our freedom dreams. I poured that all into that chapter.

01:19:09.211 --> 01:19:16.991
And I asked myself, Eric, what was the lesson that I learned from these Black

01:19:16.991 --> 01:19:21.111
educators that I followed throughout the book, the Miss Lucys of the world,

01:19:21.231 --> 01:19:24.011
the Charlotte Hawkins Browns, the Mary McLeod Bethunes,

01:19:24.231 --> 01:19:27.631
the Mary Smith Peaks, the W.E.B. Du Boises, and the Booker T.

01:19:27.931 --> 01:19:33.931
Washingtons? What I learned was the main takeaway was small acts fall big tree

01:19:33.931 --> 01:19:40.851
that Jamaican saying that it's rarely that one big action that we do that's

01:19:40.851 --> 01:19:43.091
going to make the change that we want to see.

01:19:43.091 --> 01:19:48.491
No, it's the thousand and one little things that we do on a daily basis with

01:19:48.491 --> 01:19:52.351
the resources that you have right now that make that difference.

01:19:52.771 --> 01:19:57.551
And that's the power. So, you know that saying power to the people?

01:19:58.251 --> 01:20:04.411
Well, the whole saying is power to the people, not power to the people in power.

01:20:04.911 --> 01:20:10.211
Okay? And that's the same ethos with that saying.

01:20:10.211 --> 01:20:15.951
It is that we, at the individual level, at the community level,

01:20:16.191 --> 01:20:21.531
at the level of your block, that's where the power for change lies.

01:20:21.551 --> 01:20:26.411
And if you remember that, then you got all you need to make this thing shake.

01:20:27.311 --> 01:20:33.451
Yeah. All right. Final question. What do you want the readers of the book to take away from it?

01:20:34.544 --> 01:20:39.204
Hmm, that the relay must be assured.

01:20:39.744 --> 01:20:43.384
I take those words from my elder, Dr.

01:20:43.564 --> 01:20:49.664
Jessica B. Harris, and what that means is that the baton is in our hands now.

01:20:50.084 --> 01:20:54.084
Our ancestors did their part, and they ran a mighty race.

01:20:54.484 --> 01:20:58.244
Our elders did their part, and they showed us how.

01:20:58.444 --> 01:21:01.204
And now, the baton is in our

01:21:01.204 --> 01:21:04.244
hands the cavalry is not coming but we

01:21:04.244 --> 01:21:07.784
have everything we need to do this thing so

01:21:07.784 --> 01:21:14.604
you know let us all be encouraged in that but let's also roll up our sleeves

01:21:14.604 --> 01:21:21.824
pull out our checkbooks if we can do that but also think about what your expertise

01:21:21.824 --> 01:21:26.504
your assets your resources are spiritually,

01:21:26.984 --> 01:21:32.824
physically emotionally and skills based and apply it towards something. It's our turn.

01:21:33.724 --> 01:21:37.124
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Dr.

01:21:37.244 --> 01:21:40.484
Karida Brown, thank you, not only for coming on the podcast,

01:21:40.684 --> 01:21:43.144
but thank you for being you.

01:21:43.384 --> 01:21:49.324
Thank you for pouring your heart and your talent into this book.

01:21:49.704 --> 01:21:52.824
Tell people how they can get a hold of it.

01:21:53.773 --> 01:21:59.493
You can get this book from anywhere that books are sold, online or at your local

01:21:59.493 --> 01:22:00.593
independent bookstore.

01:22:00.913 --> 01:22:05.073
I do encourage you all, hey, support your local Black bookstore.

01:22:05.313 --> 01:22:09.753
So whether that's physically going in and purchasing the copy or going online

01:22:09.753 --> 01:22:12.673
or calling them and ordering one, they will ship it to you.

01:22:12.853 --> 01:22:18.713
This is one of the ways that we support our ecosystem of small Black businesses.

01:22:18.893 --> 01:22:23.173
But get you one of these. This book is good for the soul, but don't just order

01:22:23.173 --> 01:22:28.973
one copy, get two, and give one to someone you think would benefit from this.

01:22:28.973 --> 01:22:34.633
A teacher in your life, student, a parent who's thinking through these questions

01:22:34.633 --> 01:22:38.133
about what is the future of education mean for their children,

01:22:38.373 --> 01:22:41.233
and discuss it in your homes.

01:22:41.953 --> 01:22:48.853
Yeah. And if people want to get in touch with you other than enrolling at Emory, how can they do that?

01:22:49.593 --> 01:22:54.073
Follow me. Dr. Karida Brown is my handle across all social media,

01:22:54.393 --> 01:22:56.693
LinkedIn, Instagram, and TikTok.

01:22:57.713 --> 01:23:01.813
I'm an avid poster on all of them. I get a little ratchet on TikTok.

01:23:02.193 --> 01:23:08.953
I host educational posts on LinkedIn, and I keep you updated on what I got going on on Instagram.

01:23:09.533 --> 01:23:13.653
Yeah, and she still knows all the lyrics, all the rap songs from back in the book.

01:23:14.433 --> 01:23:18.433
And that's what I picked up on TikTok. I was like, all right, Dr. Brown, go ahead.

01:23:19.133 --> 01:23:22.753
Well, look, thank you again for coming on. You already know the rule because

01:23:22.753 --> 01:23:29.233
this is your second time being on the podcast. But I greatly appreciate you spending time with you.

01:23:29.433 --> 01:23:36.933
And I know I had promised that I would try to connect with you and Charlie off the air.

01:23:37.213 --> 01:23:42.673
And eventually we're going to make that happen. But I just want to thank you for coming on today.

01:23:43.233 --> 01:23:47.293
Oh, thank you. It's an honor and a joy. Thank you for what you do, Erik.

01:23:47.553 --> 01:23:51.253
We appreciate you and love you. You are our community.

01:23:51.773 --> 01:23:54.813
Thank you. All right, guys. We're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:23:56.400 --> 01:24:06.960
Music.

01:24:06.446 --> 01:24:11.306
All right, and we are back. So I want to thank Amanda Janoo and Dr.

01:24:11.426 --> 01:24:13.706
Karida Brown for coming on the podcast.

01:24:14.586 --> 01:24:17.986
As I told you all in the intro, they're smarter than I am.

01:24:17.986 --> 01:24:24.986
And I'm just honored that people of such intellect and such character and such

01:24:24.986 --> 01:24:31.326
commitment are willing to share their thoughts and the work that they're doing

01:24:31.326 --> 01:24:34.146
on this podcast. It means an awful lot.

01:24:34.526 --> 01:24:41.986
And I look forward to continuing to have conversations with them and any other

01:24:41.986 --> 01:24:48.746
interactions we may have off the air, you know, whether it's seminars or whatever the case may be.

01:24:49.146 --> 01:24:53.746
Right. But, you know, and just to continue to watch them do the work.

01:24:54.206 --> 01:25:02.126
You know, Amanda is very, very committed to making sure that the economy that

01:25:02.126 --> 01:25:06.246
we are in serves us, right?

01:25:06.766 --> 01:25:13.386
That, you know, we're not just cogs in the wheel or spokes in the wheel,

01:25:13.706 --> 01:25:15.666
cogs in the machine, however you want to look at it.

01:25:15.666 --> 01:25:23.006
That there's something beneficial to us in this society through economics.

01:25:23.506 --> 01:25:29.126
And then, you know, Dr. Brown with, you know, this history about black education.

01:25:29.986 --> 01:25:34.166
I think, you know, people need to understand how important that is, right?

01:25:35.446 --> 01:25:40.566
And I'm glad we were able to, in the brief time that we were able to discuss

01:25:40.566 --> 01:25:47.166
these kind of topics to kind of dig into it a little bit, but it's really,

01:25:47.326 --> 01:25:51.806
really important because I think if people understood,

01:25:52.406 --> 01:25:56.326
really understood our history as a people in the United States,

01:25:56.346 --> 01:25:59.226
I'm talking about understanding black folks, African Americans.

01:26:02.626 --> 01:26:06.846
Then, you know, I think the respect would come.

01:26:07.386 --> 01:26:13.886
You know, I think it's very lazy to say that we're lazy, or that we're irresponsible,

01:26:14.126 --> 01:26:17.266
or that we're innately criminal, or anything like that, right?

01:26:17.726 --> 01:26:22.586
I think if you really understood the history of black people in America,

01:26:23.886 --> 01:26:26.626
then, you know, it would be.

01:26:27.982 --> 01:26:31.002
I just think the majority of people would have a different perspective.

01:26:31.142 --> 01:26:33.782
And I think that's kind of the case.

01:26:34.422 --> 01:26:40.002
But, you know, we wouldn't have this element of folks supporting these inane

01:26:40.002 --> 01:26:44.842
people in politics if it was universal respect.

01:26:45.262 --> 01:26:51.542
Right. because, you know, when you look at the history of people from Ireland

01:26:51.542 --> 01:26:56.722
or Italy, you understand what they went through to get here,

01:26:57.462 --> 01:27:01.982
or people from Cuba or people from Mexico or El Salvador, right?

01:27:02.122 --> 01:27:08.942
When you understand the histories of people, the Chinese citizens here,

01:27:09.122 --> 01:27:12.162
people of Chinese heritage, if you understand their history,

01:27:12.442 --> 01:27:14.862
then you have an incredible respect for them.

01:27:14.862 --> 01:27:21.762
And I think that's kind of what's missing, is that all of us have a story to

01:27:21.762 --> 01:27:28.162
tell, whether it's an individual story or a collective story as a group.

01:27:28.702 --> 01:27:32.502
We have a story to tell. And if people appreciate the story,

01:27:32.862 --> 01:27:38.162
then you'll appreciate the individuals that make up that story, right?

01:27:39.022 --> 01:27:43.662
So, you know, I just hope that we get to that point.

01:27:43.862 --> 01:27:47.902
And, you know, Dr. Brown with her work and even Amanda with her work,

01:27:48.382 --> 01:27:54.042
right, are doing their part to kind of get us to have an understanding,

01:27:54.042 --> 01:27:58.742
to develop more of a communal relationship, right?

01:27:58.922 --> 01:28:03.702
Even though they're using different tracks, their object is the same.

01:28:04.762 --> 01:28:08.902
So, anyway, I thank y'all. I'll thank those folks for coming on.

01:28:09.602 --> 01:28:12.022
I just want to close out by saying,

01:28:14.082 --> 01:28:22.422
if you have been paying attention to what's going on here, there's a lot of

01:28:22.422 --> 01:28:23.762
things I could really go off.

01:28:23.862 --> 01:28:28.962
I could go off on Robert Francis Kennedy Jr.

01:28:30.422 --> 01:28:34.042
Disgracing his daddy's name, right? Now, his daddy wasn't a patron saint.

01:28:35.410 --> 01:28:38.610
He was getting there. He was getting there.

01:28:39.730 --> 01:28:44.350
And, you know, you know, and I just thought about it, you know,

01:28:44.650 --> 01:28:46.770
his mom just passed away.

01:28:47.470 --> 01:28:54.070
Ms. Ethel lived a long time and I don't think she was alive to see him get this

01:28:54.070 --> 01:28:55.370
appointment and all that stuff.

01:28:55.590 --> 01:28:59.650
So maybe that might be part of the issue.

01:29:00.150 --> 01:29:03.590
And I say that as some, you know, all of us that have lost their moms,

01:29:03.610 --> 01:29:07.850
I think within that initial year or two, we're kind of going to,

01:29:07.890 --> 01:29:13.030
we're not ourselves and we're trying to navigate not having that connection

01:29:13.030 --> 01:29:14.670
anymore, especially if you're a close team.

01:29:15.190 --> 01:29:18.330
So maybe that might be part of his deal.

01:29:19.050 --> 01:29:22.530
Of course, he may be just crazy, right?

01:29:22.810 --> 01:29:27.810
But because he's had some issues throughout his life, but I,

01:29:28.150 --> 01:29:32.910
you know, losing your mom, it, it does something to you.

01:29:33.390 --> 01:29:37.990
So maybe that's his issue, but I could go off on that, but that's not really,

01:29:38.230 --> 01:29:45.150
that's not really what's on my mind, you know, or, you know, just the stupid stuff.

01:29:45.350 --> 01:29:48.410
You got another state, Missouri, trying to redraw their lines.

01:29:49.170 --> 01:29:54.050
Indiana is probably going to be dumb enough to do it too, which is a shame.

01:29:54.050 --> 01:29:56.230
Speaking about my mom, because that's where she's from.

01:29:57.110 --> 01:30:07.690
But the thing that's really bothering me is Donald Trump wanting to send troops to Chicago.

01:30:09.130 --> 01:30:15.490
Now, having grown up there and having watched what has happened in the city

01:30:15.490 --> 01:30:20.190
from afar over these last, God, 40-some years.

01:30:21.970 --> 01:30:24.790
You know i i just

01:30:24.790 --> 01:30:27.910
don't understand and and and

01:30:27.910 --> 01:30:31.090
you know steven miller is the guy that's pushing all this stuff right

01:30:31.090 --> 01:30:37.410
so i guess when he was busy too busy reading meinkauf and all these other books

01:30:37.410 --> 01:30:45.030
that he he hasn't studied the history of chicago at all um that's probably the

01:30:45.030 --> 01:30:48.650
last city that you want to try to do that in.

01:30:49.250 --> 01:30:58.370
You know, the city of Chicago is unique in a sense that it has always been driven by labor.

01:30:59.030 --> 01:31:02.250
Now, people are going to make the argument about Detroit and the car industry

01:31:02.250 --> 01:31:05.130
and all that stuff and New York.

01:31:05.290 --> 01:31:09.390
But New York's the financial capital. It's always been the money city, right?

01:31:09.910 --> 01:31:13.970
You know, Wall Street is in New York. Now, you know, you got the Chicago Board

01:31:13.970 --> 01:31:19.770
of Trade, but New York's always been considered the money city, right?

01:31:20.110 --> 01:31:22.610
But Chicago was...

01:31:23.410 --> 01:31:26.410
Forever, the transportation hub of this nation.

01:31:27.730 --> 01:31:34.090
And it was a rite of passage to be a part of a union, right?

01:31:34.850 --> 01:31:38.370
You know, I was in a union at 16.

01:31:40.070 --> 01:31:46.990
And, you know, it's always been about people just trying to work and make a decent living.

01:31:47.770 --> 01:31:51.630
You know, the South side of Chicago, especially the neighborhood I grew up in

01:31:51.630 --> 01:31:55.930
historically was a wealthy white neighborhood.

01:31:56.310 --> 01:31:59.270
And as black people came in, those folks left.

01:32:00.430 --> 01:32:07.990
And, you know, so a lot of those two flats and nice houses on the south side,

01:32:08.310 --> 01:32:14.190
you know, that was a dream to have an apartment laid out like a full house.

01:32:15.030 --> 01:32:19.770
You know You know what I'm saying? That's a two-flat. It's basically two houses on top of each other.

01:32:20.570 --> 01:32:24.630
It's not little small box. Like when you talk about apartment now,

01:32:24.730 --> 01:32:28.670
you're literally talking about small square footage and all that stuff.

01:32:29.090 --> 01:32:31.050
That's not what we grew up in in Chicago.

01:32:32.890 --> 01:32:37.630
And, you know, it meant something to have a job.

01:32:37.630 --> 01:32:43.050
It meant something to be able to work. work, it meant something to be able to

01:32:43.050 --> 01:32:47.470
have a day off and enjoy the fruits of your labor, whether that's going to a

01:32:47.470 --> 01:32:51.390
ball game or picnic at the park, play some golf,

01:32:51.870 --> 01:32:53.630
basketball, whatever you wanted to do.

01:32:54.370 --> 01:33:01.210
The city took pride in the fact that people were trying to live well.

01:33:01.370 --> 01:33:05.970
Now, for the black community, it was more of a struggle to do that.

01:33:06.510 --> 01:33:11.190
But the block party was everything. Right.

01:33:11.910 --> 01:33:16.870
It was like close off the street and, you know, just have a throwdown with your

01:33:16.870 --> 01:33:18.370
neighbors, your friends.

01:33:18.670 --> 01:33:24.110
And, you know, and I always allude to the parade, you know, to open up Little

01:33:24.110 --> 01:33:30.390
League and the Bud Billiken Day Parade and, you know, just all sorts of just cool stuff to do.

01:33:33.300 --> 01:33:37.720
And, you know, and there were some parts of the city where they were living

01:33:37.720 --> 01:33:39.680
a different kind of existence, right?

01:33:39.820 --> 01:33:43.820
Cabrini Green, Robert Taylor Homes, all these places. They were living a different

01:33:43.820 --> 01:33:46.240
kind of existence in a sense.

01:33:47.140 --> 01:33:54.500
But once they got out of the confines of those housing projects and intermingled

01:33:54.500 --> 01:33:59.540
with other folks, whether it be in high school or at a party or whatever,

01:33:59.880 --> 01:34:01.720
you got a different vibe.

01:34:01.800 --> 01:34:10.360
You know and it was it was it was cool you know everybody kind of understood what was happening,

01:34:11.740 --> 01:34:16.460
and you know and and the business people in the business community were were

01:34:16.460 --> 01:34:19.680
connected you know and always were trying to do something whether it was like

01:34:19.680 --> 01:34:21.660
the black on black love project or,

01:34:22.420 --> 01:34:29.620
you know whatever i mean people people related to everybody i i you know tom

01:34:29.620 --> 01:34:32.380
joiner was a regular DJ when I was growing up.

01:34:32.460 --> 01:34:36.620
Don Cornelius used to do the news before he did Soul Train when I was growing up, right?

01:34:37.500 --> 01:34:44.780
So, you know, it was just, Chicago was just a cool place. It just was a magnificent place.

01:34:45.260 --> 01:34:49.460
And even though as Black people, we struggled, and Dr. King highlighted that, right?

01:34:50.220 --> 01:34:56.340
You know, and Jesse Jackson tried to keep it going as far as fighting for equality

01:34:56.340 --> 01:34:58.720
in the economic equality in the city.

01:35:00.700 --> 01:35:05.120
We had a black mayor by the time I was 18.

01:35:07.700 --> 01:35:16.840
We had power, right? We had asserted ourselves enough where we got political power in that city.

01:35:17.260 --> 01:35:20.920
And we did the math. We realized that when you broke it down,

01:35:21.100 --> 01:35:24.540
we were the biggest block of votes in the city.

01:35:26.260 --> 01:35:33.900
So the last place you want to go in and try to be disruptive is Chicago.

01:35:34.900 --> 01:35:39.000
Because Chicago has always been known as the city of big shoulders and all that,

01:35:39.060 --> 01:35:41.420
but it's also the city of community.

01:35:42.340 --> 01:35:46.640
You know, within Chicago, you have your rivalries between the Cubs and the White

01:35:46.640 --> 01:35:51.780
Sox. And, you know, you have your debates about is it a Bears town,

01:35:51.940 --> 01:35:56.300
is it a Cubs town, is it a Sox town, is it a Bulls town, is it a Blackhawks town, right?

01:35:56.900 --> 01:36:00.520
You know, you have those debates. And, you know, you didn't really have too

01:36:00.520 --> 01:36:03.400
much debate about politics. Either you're a Democrat or you're not.

01:36:04.260 --> 01:36:07.880
And the majority of people were Democrats. But, you know, the North side,

01:36:08.000 --> 01:36:11.960
South side, West side, everybody's got their own little quirks.

01:36:11.960 --> 01:36:16.980
And in the Latino community, the Cubans and the Puerto Ricans and the Mexicans,

01:36:17.280 --> 01:36:21.800
you know, everybody's got the Dominicans, everybody's got their own clique.

01:36:24.112 --> 01:36:33.872
When the city is under siege, when it looks like everybody's got to rally around the city, it happens.

01:36:34.372 --> 01:36:40.952
And it's been happening way before I was born. I mean, the city literally burned down in 1871.

01:36:41.372 --> 01:36:46.272
And they rebuilt it around the water tower structure that survived it, right?

01:36:47.332 --> 01:36:49.432
It survived the Great Depression.

01:36:50.552 --> 01:36:55.012
It was a thriving point in the Roaring Twenties. And the roar came primarily

01:36:55.012 --> 01:37:01.432
from Chicago because of prohibition, right, and the activities that ensued.

01:37:01.512 --> 01:37:03.032
Now, that's when it was a crime problem.

01:37:03.192 --> 01:37:07.912
If you wanted to send troops then, it might have been warranted, right?

01:37:08.572 --> 01:37:14.012
But they didn't even send the National Guard in when Al Capone and Bugsy Malone

01:37:14.012 --> 01:37:16.092
were fighting for territory, right?

01:37:16.632 --> 01:37:21.552
But now Chicago is, as the president says, a hellhole.

01:37:22.372 --> 01:37:28.992
So automatically, if any Chicago team wins a championship during Trump's presidency,

01:37:28.992 --> 01:37:32.072
I would not go. I wouldn't go.

01:37:32.792 --> 01:37:37.692
Now, probably likely might not be one, but just in case one of the teams get

01:37:37.692 --> 01:37:41.712
hot and they get that moment, I would turn that down.

01:37:42.172 --> 01:37:47.452
And I would remind them, you said our city was a hellhole, so this White House

01:37:47.452 --> 01:37:48.712
is not where we want to be.

01:37:51.252 --> 01:37:55.592
But, you know, Chicago is is a great place.

01:37:56.112 --> 01:38:00.652
And the guy who's the governor, his family built their fortune in Chicago.

01:38:01.212 --> 01:38:07.552
Right. And I've known of the governor since we were all running around and the

01:38:07.552 --> 01:38:08.932
young Democrats together.

01:38:10.652 --> 01:38:15.692
And the mayor, Brandon Johnson, is basically a former school teacher who has

01:38:15.692 --> 01:38:17.692
elevated to be the mayor of the city.

01:38:18.432 --> 01:38:22.572
That's very Chicago, that that could happen, right?

01:38:24.412 --> 01:38:28.312
It's really, really a bad idea to go into any U.S.

01:38:28.392 --> 01:38:33.912
City with the military, but it's a really terrible idea, strategically and otherwise,

01:38:33.912 --> 01:38:36.372
to even think about doing that to Chicago.

01:38:36.932 --> 01:38:39.652
It's not going to end well for the president.

01:38:42.212 --> 01:38:48.752
Between the lawyers and the political figures and the community leaders.

01:38:49.512 --> 01:38:52.952
You know, you got these folks, you know, all of a sudden now they're wearing

01:38:52.952 --> 01:38:58.092
red hats and which red sweatshirts, you know, saying, oh, no,

01:38:58.252 --> 01:39:00.532
Mr. President, we want you to come and all that stuff, bruh.

01:39:01.612 --> 01:39:05.732
Okay, you had your TikTok moment. The majority of people in Chicago,

01:39:05.992 --> 01:39:10.672
white, black, Latino, Asian, they're not feeling that at all. They don't need that.

01:39:11.032 --> 01:39:15.232
They need the money, the money that you are going to spend.

01:39:16.956 --> 01:39:21.296
Put federal troops, whether it's the National Guard or Texas,

01:39:21.996 --> 01:39:26.816
Greg Abbott, Greg Abbott, my God, Greg Abbott, or, you know,

01:39:27.136 --> 01:39:31.576
whatever Marine group you want to slide in or, you know, like you did in LA

01:39:31.576 --> 01:39:35.276
or whatever you're trying to do, whatever resources you're spending on that,

01:39:35.436 --> 01:39:39.256
if you gave that directly to the mayor and said, mayor, I want you,

01:39:40.056 --> 01:39:44.876
okay, I I understand crime's going down, but I think you can do better.

01:39:45.376 --> 01:39:51.736
So we're going to give you this money to go into law enforcement and do what you need to do. Right?

01:39:52.496 --> 01:39:55.896
If you want to do more community policing, knock yourself out.

01:39:56.036 --> 01:40:00.536
If you want to hire more officers, knock yourself out.

01:40:00.636 --> 01:40:04.556
But we're going to give you the money to do that instead of wasting money.

01:40:05.976 --> 01:40:09.816
Because the last thing I want to see is that you've got these federal troops

01:40:09.816 --> 01:40:13.996
up in Chicago and they're picking up trash like they're doing in D.C.

01:40:15.136 --> 01:40:19.596
Chicago is one of the cleanest cities in the nation, so it's one of the best

01:40:19.596 --> 01:40:21.216
cities in the world to live in.

01:40:22.236 --> 01:40:25.756
So they probably ain't going to have that much to do as far as picking up trash.

01:40:26.516 --> 01:40:29.436
I'm just saying, it's a waste of time.

01:40:31.036 --> 01:40:40.016
And, you know, I don't know what kind of dreams that Miller has as far as this

01:40:40.016 --> 01:40:44.836
authoritarian or this Curtis Yarvin kind of clique or the Peter Thiel's.

01:40:44.896 --> 01:40:49.716
And I don't know what y'all expecting, but I think you're starting to realize

01:40:49.716 --> 01:40:53.836
that the United States of America is not the country to try to pull that off in.

01:40:55.279 --> 01:41:00.919
Think the United States of America is dictator-proof. Now, has he done a lot

01:41:00.919 --> 01:41:04.039
of damage, some of Trump and Miller and all these guys? Oh, yeah.

01:41:04.719 --> 01:41:10.799
They've done a lot of damage. No more damage than Jefferson Davis and Robert A. Lee, though, right?

01:41:11.639 --> 01:41:14.159
But they're doing their best. They're dividing the country.

01:41:15.579 --> 01:41:19.839
They're dismantling institutions. They're doing everything they possibly could do.

01:41:20.319 --> 01:41:26.579
But the reality is, I think this country is dictator-proof because there's too many people like J.B.

01:41:26.719 --> 01:41:32.419
Pritzker and Gavin Newsom and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Jasmine Crockett.

01:41:32.659 --> 01:41:36.859
And, you know, there's just too many people.

01:41:37.279 --> 01:41:41.499
You know, Gary Chambers or Representative Goolsbee.

01:41:41.799 --> 01:41:44.979
You just, you got too many people scattered. In Mississippi,

01:41:46.039 --> 01:41:49.559
Bruh, you think you'll have a fight in Chicago?

01:41:50.559 --> 01:41:53.479
Try to go to Jackson, Mississippi. Now, you're not going to do that because

01:41:53.479 --> 01:41:59.579
there's a Republican governor there who's sending Mississippi National Guard people to D.C.

01:42:00.559 --> 01:42:03.919
But, yeah, that would be stupid, too.

01:42:04.079 --> 01:42:08.999
It's just too many folks to deal with, you know.

01:42:10.059 --> 01:42:13.499
It's just, you know, you got Derrick Johnson and Sky Perryman and,

01:42:13.499 --> 01:42:21.479
you know, Mark Elias, who single-handedly is suing you every corner of the country, right?

01:42:21.779 --> 01:42:23.439
There's too many people like that.

01:42:25.059 --> 01:42:28.999
For a true strongman to win.

01:42:29.799 --> 01:42:34.539
Now, I'm not saying that we don't need to be on our guard, that we need to abdicate

01:42:34.539 --> 01:42:39.819
our duty as far as being voters and being vocal and active citizens.

01:42:41.839 --> 01:42:47.899
But I think I think those wannabes have bitten off more than they can chew.

01:42:48.539 --> 01:42:50.819
And it's not going to end well for them.

01:42:52.919 --> 01:42:57.159
And, you know, this election cycle, I think you're going to continue to see

01:42:57.159 --> 01:43:06.099
turnover in 2026, regardless of how they try to rig it. I think it's going to be bad.

01:43:06.699 --> 01:43:13.959
Right. And if they don't realize it by the end of 2026, then they get what they deserve in 2028.

01:43:15.779 --> 01:43:22.679
Right. Because a time ago, I got on this podcast and talked about a historical

01:43:22.679 --> 01:43:27.379
moment in America called the era of good feelings where one political party was irrelevant.

01:43:27.379 --> 01:43:32.959
And the Republicans are trying to make it seem like the Democrats of that party,

01:43:33.139 --> 01:43:41.619
but not really, because I always know his history has always shown that these type of Republicans,

01:43:42.159 --> 01:43:51.159
these type of conservatives, these type of authoritarian minded folks overplay their hand. Always.

01:43:52.059 --> 01:43:55.259
It's just like any comic book.

01:43:55.499 --> 01:43:59.319
Right. The villain looks like, oh, we got the hero right where we want him,

01:43:59.479 --> 01:44:01.839
and then they try to do too much.

01:44:02.379 --> 01:44:05.379
The hero comes back and takes care of him.

01:44:05.999 --> 01:44:11.139
And that happens in real life. That happens with these Republicans.

01:44:12.969 --> 01:44:18.929
Research. Go back and look. It's like the American people will tolerate you

01:44:18.929 --> 01:44:22.749
if you sound like you're about to do something that's beneficial to them.

01:44:22.829 --> 01:44:26.969
But when they realize that it is a circus and a total shit show,

01:44:27.189 --> 01:44:30.249
they put you back in your place.

01:44:30.749 --> 01:44:34.849
And then, of course, they try to regroup and come up with a new scheme as well

01:44:34.849 --> 01:44:38.669
as like pinky in the brain is like they always trying to come up with something

01:44:38.669 --> 01:44:39.749
new to take over the world.

01:44:39.869 --> 01:44:45.049
But the reality is that every time you do that, you're going to be pushed back.

01:44:45.269 --> 01:44:50.189
The best thing that you can do is just try to sell your ideas to the American

01:44:50.189 --> 01:44:54.229
people and let the nation determine which direction do we want to go.

01:44:54.349 --> 01:45:01.209
Do we want to be radical or do we want to slow down and build upon what we've already established?

01:45:01.929 --> 01:45:05.689
You know, that's really the difference.

01:45:06.589 --> 01:45:11.989
Are we going to push innovation or are we going to settle where we're at and

01:45:11.989 --> 01:45:15.809
make sure what we've got is solid before we push forward.

01:45:16.649 --> 01:45:21.049
That's really where we are. And then all these other folks that's coming in

01:45:21.049 --> 01:45:23.809
and just, you know, well, I don't get it my way.

01:45:23.989 --> 01:45:30.529
So I'm going to do political retribution and I'm going to destroy stuff because

01:45:30.529 --> 01:45:34.829
they wouldn't let me build a rocket the way I wanted it.

01:45:35.049 --> 01:45:40.889
Or, you know, I can't spew out as much pollution as I want, you know,

01:45:41.309 --> 01:45:43.749
those people get theirs in the end.

01:45:45.323 --> 01:45:48.523
A lot longer than decent people, but they get theirs in the end.

01:45:49.383 --> 01:45:54.243
So despite all this craziness, despite all this foolishness, I'm hopeful.

01:45:54.903 --> 01:46:02.363
And I'm really, really watching and praying and hoping that the president doesn't

01:46:02.363 --> 01:46:04.143
go through with the Chicago thing,

01:46:04.323 --> 01:46:12.163
that it turns out to be more of a bluff than actuality because even though I

01:46:12.163 --> 01:46:13.743
haven't lived there in a while,

01:46:14.183 --> 01:46:19.023
I'm a Chicagoan at heart and I know how Chicagoans are and Chicagoans are going

01:46:19.023 --> 01:46:23.283
to fight and they're going to fight hard and they may even fight dirty,

01:46:23.323 --> 01:46:29.023
but they're going to fight and you're not going to get them to submit.

01:46:29.643 --> 01:46:32.223
You're not going to get them to capitulate.

01:46:33.243 --> 01:46:37.023
It's a waste of time. If you really want to be be presidential,

01:46:37.463 --> 01:46:42.763
then stop trying to tear down the institutions and utilize them for what they are.

01:46:43.563 --> 01:46:48.043
But that goes back to what I was saying about respecting history, right?

01:46:48.063 --> 01:46:51.343
If you understand the history of this nation, if you truly understand it,

01:46:51.383 --> 01:46:55.823
and you truly understand the concept of why these institutions were set up,

01:46:56.143 --> 01:47:03.043
then you would make it work for you instead of trying to destroy it and cast

01:47:03.043 --> 01:47:05.563
it in your own image, right?

01:47:07.483 --> 01:47:14.403
I hope that makes some sense. I just, I'm tired, but I'm not surrendering.

01:47:15.403 --> 01:47:21.183
And I think that's the gist of most of the people that are part of the resistance.

01:47:21.883 --> 01:47:25.803
We're not going to give in. Are we a little inundated? Yeah.

01:47:27.163 --> 01:47:33.403
But we got it covered. And we have the track record that you're going to overplay

01:47:33.403 --> 01:47:36.343
your hand. And when you do, we're going to win.

01:47:37.963 --> 01:47:43.223
So y'all just keep that in mind. And as always, I thank y'all for listening.

01:47:44.080 --> 01:48:32.695
Music.