The 6888th & Title IX Featuring Kevin Hymel and Kristin Couch

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

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If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.

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First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash A Moment with Erik Fleming.

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Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak

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truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.

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Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you

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listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.

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Third, go to the website, momenteric.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,

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leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

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Lastly, don't keep this a secret like it's your own personal guilty pleasure.

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Tell someone else about the podcast. Encourage others to listen to the podcast

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and share the podcast on your social media platforms, because it is time to

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Music.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Hello. Welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host,

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Erik Fleming, and we've got a great podcast for you today. Thank you for tuning in and listening.

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I have two guests.

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One is a historian and one is a college administrator, but she has a very,

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very distinct and unique role at her college.

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And as you hear the interview, you will understand why it's distinct and unique,

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and especially in this time that we're in.

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As far as the historian goes,

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You will not recognize him, but you will recognize his work as we get into the

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discussion. So I was really, really excited to get both of them to come on.

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And they both said that they were pretty excited to be on the podcast,

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which is flattering for me, to say the least.

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And so I really think that y'all are going to enjoy this show.

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I always try to get at least one historian during Black History Month.

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I kind of feel like I'm obligated to do that.

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And you don't hear me talk a lot about black history per se,

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but what I consider this podcast is a contribution to black history because,

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you know, and especially from a political sense, to kind of document where we

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are and the times we're in. Right.

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And so when I'm able to get some people on to talk about history, that's great.

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And it's not confined to just February as far as this podcast goes.

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And I guess it was McDonald's or somebody that had the black 365 phrase to market that or whatever.

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You know, but that's a real thing for us. that we're making history every day

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so we don't have to just be confined to the 28 days of February.

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And, you know, this podcast will continue to,

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take advantage of that and, and highlight that as much as possible.

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Um, so, you know, and one of the other things I want to kind of stress,

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cause I put it out there on social media and, you know, I hadn't really gotten

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a whole lot of responses.

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So I guess, I guess I'm gonna have to do it.

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You know, I, I, I'm making appeal at the beginning of the podcast, you know,

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for subscribers and all that, but I really want to get to a point where I have

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20,000 subscribers and that's a lot, you know,

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considering all the podcasts that are out here and, you know,

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is doing good work and telling a story and all that.

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And I know not everybody can do with, you know, support everything,

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but on Patreon, on, you know, I'm only asking for a dollar a month.

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I don't think that's much, you know, and I understand in the totality of things

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that's really, really very little, but I also understand the totality of things

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that other people, you know, people have other commitments, I should say.

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So I just want you to find it in your heart and tell a friend to support this podcast.

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And, you know, the more subscribers I have, you know, there'll be some,

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you know, I can do some additional content that'll be strictly for the subscribers.

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And, you know, it may just be commentary for me or, you know,

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maybe it's an interview that...

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You know, you know, somebody that you like, we can get them back on and just

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it'll be just them on that particular special Patreon.

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So, you know, but I've put some clips out there. If I have technical difficulties

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with an interview, I've reposted that on the Patreon so people can hear it.

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You know, just just whatever. It's just another tool for me to put more content

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out there. But the main thing is a vehicle to to build subscriptions.

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And even though I'm part of a network, we're all black independent people.

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Even my my network boss, he's he's he's independent. Right.

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And, you know, and all of us that are on the network, you know,

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we we finance our own projects.

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And so, you know, the the more self-sufficient each podcast is in the network,

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the better it is for the network as a whole.

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So, you know, support NBG Podcast Network, support A Moment With Erik Fleming

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Podcast, support the other podcasts on the network if you can.

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But I'm making my personal pitch, and my goal is by the end of the year to have

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20,000 monthly subscribers.

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And it would be an incredible godsend for that to happen.

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And I would really, really appreciate that and that would give me more latitude

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to do more things for you via this podcast.

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All right, so I got that out the way so now it's time to get the program started

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and as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Music.

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Thanks, Erik. President Trump ousted Joint Chiefs Chair C.Q.

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Brown and five other military leaders in a historic Pentagon shake-up.

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House Republicans narrowly approved Trump's $4.5 trillion tax cut and border security package.

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A U.S. and Ukraine minerals deal agreement reached an impasse after an Oval

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Office confrontation between Presidents Trump and Zelensky.

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The Supreme Court overturned Richard

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Glossop's 1997 murder conviction in Oklahoma and ordered a new trial.

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A federal judge denied the AP's bid to restore White House access after its

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ban for using Gulf of Mexico in its news stories.

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Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass dismissed Fire Chief Kristen Crowley over wildfire

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response failures, staffing cuts, and refusal to file proper reports.

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A Georgia sheriff's deputy will not face charges for fatally shooting Leonard

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Cure, a black man previously exonerated from prison after prosecutors deemed

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the use of force reasonable.

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Republican Congressman Byron Donalds announced a gubernatorial bid in Florida,

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citing his legislative experience and President Trump's endorsement.

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Rudy Giuliani fulfilled a $148 million defamation judgment to Georgia election

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workers via a confidential settlement.

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A federal judge blocked Trump's ban on DEI programs, ruling they likely violate free speech.

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Immigration and Customs Enforcement leadership has been reassigned after Trump's

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first-month deportations totaled 37,660, significantly below Biden's 57,000

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monthly average during his tenure.

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A federal judge blocked Trump's indefinite refugee program suspension,

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citing executive overreach and harm to families.

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Trump's proposal to merge the U.S. Postal Service with the Commerce Department

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drew immediate backlash, with critics calling it illegal and harmful to mail

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service operations. U.S.

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Existing home sales fell 4.9% in January to 4.08 million units as high mortgage

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rates and prices dampened demand.

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And Grammy-winning singer Roberta Flack died at the age of 88 I am Grace G,

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and this has been A Moment of Life.

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it's time for my guest, Kevin Hymel.

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Kevin M. Hymel is a historian for Arlington National Cemetery,

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where he records events, ceremonies, and funeral services for future record.

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Some of his articles have been reposed on the U.S.

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Army and the Department of Defense websites. He is also a historian slash tour

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guide for Stephen Ambrose Historical Tours and leads World War II European tours

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of D-Day and General George S.

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Patton's battlefields. He is the author of several books, including Patton's

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War and American General's Combat Leadership Volumes 1 and 2,

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in which Volume 2 won the Army Historical Foundation's Distinguished Writer's

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Award for Best Biography and was a Gilder Lehrman Prize finalist, Patton's photographs,

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and Patton's legendary World War II commander.

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He has served as the research director for Sovereign Media, which publishes

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World War II History magazine, where he continues to write articles.

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His article, Fighting a Two-Front War, has been made into the Netflix movie

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Six Triple Eight, written and directed by Tyler Perry.

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Mr. Hymel was a technical advisor to the film.

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Mr. Hymel is also a former, is a former historian for the U.S.

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Army's Combat Studies Institute, where he wrote about small unit operations in Afghanistan.

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He has appeared on the History Channel, the American Heroes Channel,

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the Science Channel, C-SPAN, and Book TV, speaking about General Patton and military history.

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He has worked for more than 20 years for various military and military history

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magazines and journals, and has worked as a researcher for the National Archives

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and as a historian for the United States Air Force.

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He holds a master's degree in American history from Villanova University.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Kevin Hymel. Thank you.

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Music.

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All right. Kevin Hymel, how are you doing? So are you doing good?

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I'm doing great today. How are you doing? I'm doing fine. I'm really,

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really honored to have you on because you are a historian.

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And I always try to get one historian during Black History Month.

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I feel like it's my obligation to do that.

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Most of the time, you know, people, I give them, I send requests out and And

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everybody's busy during this time. So I'm always very fortunate to get at least

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one. So I'm glad you're the one that gets that distinction this year.

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But I wanted you to come on because you wrote an article.

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And that article ended up being a major motion picture. Yeah.

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And it's very... You were surprised than me, as I said.

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Was it? It's a very rare thing that an article becomes a motion picture.

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Usually it's a book or, you know, a series of books or whatever.

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So it was just very fascinating. And to find out who the author of that article

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was, I said, well, I got to get this gentleman on.

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So I'm glad, Ms. Hemel, that you agreed to come on.

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So what I like to do to kind of start the conversation is I do like some icebreaker stuff.

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Sure. So your first is the first icebreaker is a quote.

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And I just want you to give me your opinion about the quote.

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It says moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic

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in men. What does that quote mean to you?

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Well, it makes me think of Ulysses S. Grant, who talked about physical courage.

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And that's almost easy compared to moral courage.

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Because physical courage you do in the moment, whereas moral courage is something

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that you really comes from the inside and you have to do every day.

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And it means making judgment calls and

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rising above the immediate situation to who

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you really showing who you really are and so

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moral courage it's it's a tough hill to climb but you have less to remember

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if you have it and you sleep a lot better if you do now you you mentioned general

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grant but the general who actually i got that quote from was general patton

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oh how about that He said that.

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And I know that you're a big George Patton fan.

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And if I'm mischaracterizing fan, you're definitely an expert,

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if anything is. People say that.

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Do you love Patton? I said, well, when I was a kid and I saw the movie, I loved Patton.

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But as I researched him and found out about his great military achievements,

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but also his infidelity, his anti-Semitism, and a lot of his racist views, the love went away.

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And I prefer to say I'm fascinated by him, but I think it's important to study

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him for a number of reasons.

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One, you can't understand World War II without understanding George S.

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Patton and he should not be made a paragon of leadership because he definitely

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had his faults as we all do.

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And therefore, when you study him, you have to study the whole man to understand

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his positives and negatives, his weaknesses like we all have,

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to understand him better and to understand what is leadership better. Yeah.

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And that's part of the thing about, which is why I love history and I love historians

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because historians take the mythology away.

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Human beings do great things, but not all human beings are great,

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right? Or they're not totally great.

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No human beings are great in certain ways, but yes. Yeah, yeah.

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So we all have our demons that we all fight against. That's exactly right.

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All right. So now my next icebreaker is something I call 20 questions.

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So I want you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

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Okay. I'll go with 12. All right, 12.

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All right. What advice do you have for recognizing fake news,

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propaganda, misinformation, disinformation? What.

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How would you tell somebody to diagnose that?

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Well, personally, what I always do is I go to Snopes.com whenever I hear something

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a little bit gray, and I find them very objective in their deciphering.

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There's also certain buzzwords you'll hear certain generalizations you'll hear

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in a myth, you know, or some fake news.

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So when you start hearing those things or like when they, they try to draw a

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straight line between two things that isn't straight.

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That's when you start questioning. Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah, that's good. So, Snoops, you said? Snoops. Snoops.com.

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I've heard of Snopes, but I don't think I've ever really looked into them.

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I might need to check them out. Snopes.com. Okay.

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All right. So, what got you engaged in military history?

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So I tell people that when I was a little kid, I had a very large G.I. Joe collection.

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Now I'm 58 years old, so we're talking those foot tall G.I. Joes.

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And I used to write stories about them. And now I'm 58 years old and I'm still doing it.

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Always fascinated with that element of society, the military.

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I'm always fascinated with war because it's kind of the worst thing that can

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ever happen to a person and really kind of reveals who they are.

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And I guess when I was about 13, I saw the movie Patton and was fascinated by

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it, as I was mentioned earlier.

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And when I went to college, I majored in journalism because I wanted to write.

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I wanted to be a reporter, all those kinds of things.

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But I found myself always reading military history books.

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And so finally, I was like, what am I doing with my life? This is what I'm really passionate about.

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I don't know if there's a career in it or not, but I have to pursue what I'm

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really interested in. And I've never looked back.

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Yeah. Yeah, I remember the GI.

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What does GI stand? Do you remember what GI stands for? Somebody told me and

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I can't. Government issue.

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Government issue. Government issue. So when a guy joined the army in World War

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II, they would give them government issued clothes, government issued shoes,

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government issued rifle.

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And so they're basically, they say, well, I'm government issue also.

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So that's where the term GI Joe comes from, because they would give people from

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different countries like names, like Ivan was the Russian soldier.

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A Tommy was a Brit and the Joe was the American. So G.I. Joe. Yeah.

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I knew I had heard this story and I knew it had something to do with government,

00:19:52.545 --> 00:19:55.285
but I couldn't remember what the actual initials meant.

00:19:56.485 --> 00:20:00.705
Yeah. And I can relate to those G.I. Joe dolls. We're about the same age.

00:20:00.865 --> 00:20:04.725
So I definitely know the Kung Fu grip. Oh, my God. When that came out,

00:20:04.845 --> 00:20:05.965
everybody lost their mind.

00:20:06.685 --> 00:20:11.565
Yep. All right. So what was the six triple eight? Yeah.

00:20:12.194 --> 00:20:17.054
So it's the 6888 Central Postal Directory Battalion. That's their full name.

00:20:17.294 --> 00:20:19.474
So it was a military unit of the U.S. Army.

00:20:19.994 --> 00:20:26.014
And its job, the members, the soldiers of the 6888, their job was to catch up

00:20:26.014 --> 00:20:28.534
a backlog of mail in Birmingham, England.

00:20:28.694 --> 00:20:32.854
Now, it wasn't all the mail. But if you sent a letter to a loved one fighting

00:20:32.854 --> 00:20:38.014
in Europe and they'd either transferred units or they were in the hospital or

00:20:38.014 --> 00:20:41.454
they'd been killed, that letter would bounce back to Birmingham,

00:20:41.814 --> 00:20:47.174
England from as far back as 1943 or even 42 and just gather up.

00:20:47.254 --> 00:20:50.194
There wasn't a system to get that mail delivered.

00:20:50.374 --> 00:20:56.574
So by 1945, the last year of the war, they realized they have a big problem on their hands.

00:20:57.854 --> 00:21:02.054
And African-American leaders have been pushing the Roosevelt administration

00:21:02.054 --> 00:21:05.634
to include blacks more in the military.

00:21:06.054 --> 00:21:10.394
And what they did was they put out a notice to any woman who had volunteered

00:21:10.394 --> 00:21:14.454
for the army was in the army and said, if you're willing to go overseas,

00:21:14.454 --> 00:21:18.134
sign up, we're going to send you to Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia.

00:21:18.414 --> 00:21:23.594
You'll get received combat training, climbing rope ladders, running through obstacle courses.

00:21:23.674 --> 00:21:28.014
And if you qualify, we're going to send you to Europe. Now, a lot of these women

00:21:28.014 --> 00:21:30.674
did not know what the task was going to be.

00:21:30.974 --> 00:21:35.974
They merely wanted to serve their country and were not afraid to go into a combat zone.

00:21:36.214 --> 00:21:39.874
So 855 women signed up. They made it through the training.

00:21:40.094 --> 00:21:44.414
They went over to England, to Birmingham. They were only given six months to

00:21:44.414 --> 00:21:45.734
catch up this backlog of mail.

00:21:45.774 --> 00:21:48.634
We're talking multiple warehouses filled with mail.

00:21:48.894 --> 00:21:50.914
Only given six months to do it.

00:21:51.214 --> 00:21:55.034
They were incredibly criticized both for being black and for being women.

00:21:55.314 --> 00:21:57.394
They caught the mail up in three.

00:21:57.954 --> 00:22:00.734
So they were given six months to do it. They did it in three.

00:22:01.074 --> 00:22:05.834
Yeah, and that was the cool thing for those who have not seen the movie yet

00:22:05.834 --> 00:22:10.574
and it's not too many people that haven't seen the movie, that was one of the

00:22:10.574 --> 00:22:14.254
cool things in seeing how they went about.

00:22:15.192 --> 00:22:21.832
Setting up a system to make it so that they could be as efficient as possible

00:22:21.832 --> 00:22:26.972
in the middle of a war zone, because Birmingham, England was not necessarily a safe place.

00:22:27.232 --> 00:22:32.032
It was safer than some of the other frontline spots, but, you know,

00:22:32.172 --> 00:22:38.292
they were still hearing bombs and attacks, you know, while they were doing their work.

00:22:38.832 --> 00:22:42.132
So how did you find this story?

00:22:42.732 --> 00:22:46.532
So I first found the story in 2008. I was working for the U.S.

00:22:46.652 --> 00:22:51.072
Army in a program they had developed to sort of promote the military and people

00:22:51.072 --> 00:22:52.292
that supported soldiers.

00:22:52.532 --> 00:22:56.472
The logic being soldiers get medals for what they do. But what about family

00:22:56.472 --> 00:23:00.592
members that support them or celebrities that go overseas and entertain them

00:23:00.592 --> 00:23:03.072
or veterans who speak to young soldiers?

00:23:03.592 --> 00:23:07.392
And one of my co-workers came to me and she said, Kevin, I found three veterans

00:23:07.392 --> 00:23:09.652
from this unit called the 6888.

00:23:10.112 --> 00:23:12.992
I said, I've never heard of that. What is it? And when she explained it to me,

00:23:13.112 --> 00:23:15.432
she said, well, I want to put on a ceremony for them. I said,

00:23:15.492 --> 00:23:16.772
well, I'm going to write their story.

00:23:17.472 --> 00:23:21.532
And so one of the veterans names was Mary Ragland. Michelle Obama mentions her

00:23:21.532 --> 00:23:25.212
name at the end of the movie. She lived in an apartment in Northwest DC.

00:23:25.812 --> 00:23:28.672
So I went to her apartment and while I was interviewing her,

00:23:28.812 --> 00:23:33.192
she went into her closet and pulled out this stack of documents and handed it

00:23:33.192 --> 00:23:34.632
to me. And I'm going through them.

00:23:35.032 --> 00:23:38.492
And I said, Mary, what am I looking at? She said, oh, these are some of the

00:23:38.492 --> 00:23:41.432
unit records. I was a clerk, so I kept the records.

00:23:42.325 --> 00:23:46.465
And I'm like, this is amazing. This is every historian's dream to have these primary resources.

00:23:47.045 --> 00:23:50.785
So to build on that, I drove down to the National Archives in College Park,

00:23:50.905 --> 00:23:53.905
Maryland. I said, I want to see all the records on the 6888.

00:23:54.245 --> 00:23:55.705
And they said, we don't have any of them.

00:23:56.245 --> 00:24:00.425
The records of most African-American units have been destroyed from World War II.

00:24:00.785 --> 00:24:05.705
I've been told that when Harry Truman desegregated the military in 1948, the U.S.

00:24:05.865 --> 00:24:09.145
Army said, well, now we're one big happy army. We don't have segregated units,

00:24:09.205 --> 00:24:12.485
so we're going to destroy the records. We don't need them. I think it was rather

00:24:12.485 --> 00:24:13.725
insidious of a decision.

00:24:14.165 --> 00:24:18.525
So I realized I was the one person who had these documents. I told Mary,

00:24:18.685 --> 00:24:20.085
I said, you are the archives.

00:24:20.645 --> 00:24:25.805
So I wrote the article based on my interview with her and the two other women and these documents.

00:24:26.365 --> 00:24:29.285
And then I moved on. I'm an historian. I'm a military historian.

00:24:29.405 --> 00:24:31.465
I've got other veterans interview stories to write.

00:24:31.785 --> 00:24:36.705
So I put the 6888 behind me. I worked at Fort Leavenworth interviewing soldiers

00:24:36.705 --> 00:24:40.825
back from Afghanistan. and then I got a job, Lackland Air Force Base,

00:24:40.945 --> 00:24:43.045
working with Air Force Medicine as an historian.

00:24:43.565 --> 00:24:46.425
And my friends back at Leavenworth started calling me up and they said,

00:24:46.505 --> 00:24:48.925
Kevin, there's posters going up all over Leavenworth.

00:24:49.065 --> 00:24:52.785
They're going to build a monument to the 6888 and there's a phone number on

00:24:52.785 --> 00:24:55.485
the poster. You need to call that. You're the 6888 guy.

00:24:55.945 --> 00:24:59.125
And so I called the number. It was a gentleman named Carlton Philpott.

00:24:59.185 --> 00:25:00.305
He was spearheading the effort.

00:25:00.565 --> 00:25:04.565
And he said, we found three more veterans. We're going to put on a parade for

00:25:04.565 --> 00:25:07.565
them. We're going to honor them the way they should have been back in 1945.

00:25:08.525 --> 00:25:11.445
And I said, well, I don't know what I can do for you. I said,

00:25:11.525 --> 00:25:13.345
well, you know what? I really like what you're doing.

00:25:13.825 --> 00:25:17.745
So how about I interview one of these women that you found and I'll write her

00:25:17.745 --> 00:25:20.705
story and publish it in WW2 History Magazine.

00:25:20.925 --> 00:25:26.385
So he said, man, have I got the woman for you. Her name is Lena Derricotte King and she's a pill.

00:25:27.045 --> 00:25:31.705
And so I called Lena. We had a great time in the phone, 94 years old.

00:25:31.805 --> 00:25:35.245
She still did all of her own cooking and went out dancing every Saturday night.

00:25:35.885 --> 00:25:38.985
And normally I interview a veteran two or three times.

00:25:39.425 --> 00:25:43.605
I talked to Lena about 10 times. She would call me at work.

00:25:43.745 --> 00:25:48.905
Kevin, I just remembered another story and I'd have to grab a pencil and a paper and jot it down.

00:25:49.445 --> 00:25:52.285
And we just got along great. She was such a great woman.

00:25:52.785 --> 00:25:55.625
And as we were wrapping up the interview, I said, well, you know,

00:25:55.805 --> 00:25:59.605
Lena, I'm going to see you at the dedication of this monument.

00:25:59.605 --> 00:26:04.365
And she said, oh, Kevin, I can't wait to meet you because you sound to me just

00:26:04.365 --> 00:26:06.265
like Dr. Louis Henry Gates.

00:26:06.905 --> 00:26:09.365
And I thought, oh my God, she thinks I'm black.

00:26:10.265 --> 00:26:12.965
And I thought, I'm going to meet this woman. She's going to have a heart attack

00:26:12.965 --> 00:26:15.325
and I will be responsible for killing a World War II veteran.

00:26:15.845 --> 00:26:20.705
Well, I did meet her. She had a bit of a shock, but she smiled and we got along great.

00:26:21.485 --> 00:26:24.685
And I wrote up the story. I included the part about the monument.

00:26:25.305 --> 00:26:31.165
And my publisher at WW2 History Magazine, Carl Nam, called me up and he said, Kevin, this is a movie.

00:26:31.405 --> 00:26:35.885
This story is a movie. I know some producers. I'm going to put you in touch with them.

00:26:36.185 --> 00:26:41.405
So I ended up talking to Carlota Espinoza and Carrie Selig. They were very kind

00:26:41.405 --> 00:26:43.445
to me. They were very enthusiastic about it.

00:26:43.825 --> 00:26:47.525
And they did what you call shopping it around Hollywood. would.

00:26:48.405 --> 00:26:51.705
And about, I don't know, 10 months, almost a year later, they called me up and

00:26:51.705 --> 00:26:56.105
they said, Hey, Tyler Perry's going to call you. And I'm like, yeah, right.

00:26:56.725 --> 00:27:01.045
And two days later, I get this phone call with a 404 area code, which is Atlanta.

00:27:01.985 --> 00:27:05.925
And it was Mr. Perry. And I, and he said, are you the guy that wrote the article?

00:27:06.265 --> 00:27:09.265
And I said, yes, Mr. Perry. He goes, it's Tyler.

00:27:09.905 --> 00:27:12.665
And I said, well, Tyler, I am the guy that wrote the article.

00:27:12.805 --> 00:27:15.805
And he goes, okay, hey, from now on, you're my new best friend.

00:27:16.145 --> 00:27:21.545
And so from there on, I probably talked to Tyler once or twice a day as he wrote

00:27:21.545 --> 00:27:26.385
the script and I advised him, you know, on the military angles and what you can and cannot do.

00:27:26.865 --> 00:27:31.945
And I think he wrote a brilliant script. He hired me as a technical advisor

00:27:31.945 --> 00:27:34.565
on set. So they flew me down to Atlanta.

00:27:34.845 --> 00:27:38.325
Actually, he flew me out to California to LA for the table read.

00:27:38.465 --> 00:27:42.185
So I got to meet all these young ladies and they were so enthusiastic about

00:27:42.185 --> 00:27:45.665
the movie. they had done their hair up in 1940s hairdos.

00:27:45.845 --> 00:27:48.965
That was the kind of vibe that was going into this movie.

00:27:49.205 --> 00:27:53.325
There's so much excitement, so much willingness to portray these women.

00:27:53.605 --> 00:27:57.745
And I know that Oprah at one time briefed them and said, these women brought

00:27:57.745 --> 00:28:01.125
dignity to the military and you have to capture that.

00:28:01.665 --> 00:28:05.265
So then I was on set in the rain for a lot of the battle scenes.

00:28:05.405 --> 00:28:09.965
I was able to advise Kerry Washington on her character and some of the other ladies.

00:28:10.745 --> 00:28:14.025
And, you know, I was so in the weeds with it. Tyler would send me,

00:28:14.165 --> 00:28:16.725
you know, the movie and I'd have to like, okay, you can do this.

00:28:16.845 --> 00:28:18.285
You can't do this. We got to edit this word.

00:28:18.982 --> 00:28:23.202
And I thought it was good. And then, and I always called it my movie and the

00:28:23.202 --> 00:28:26.842
guy, you know, I remember with the article, well, they had a showing at the

00:28:26.842 --> 00:28:30.442
African-American history museum in DC that I, that Tyler let me attend.

00:28:31.202 --> 00:28:37.302
And I watched it and to see the audience respond to gasp and cheer and,

00:28:37.562 --> 00:28:39.102
you know, just be so invested.

00:28:39.382 --> 00:28:43.022
I was like, this is not my movie. This is Tyler Perry's movie.

00:28:43.582 --> 00:28:48.582
And it has just been such a positive experience from the get-go.

00:28:48.582 --> 00:28:51.002
That it's beyond all of my expectations.

00:28:51.302 --> 00:28:55.462
I, I love writing articles. I love writing books. That is my end goal.

00:28:55.762 --> 00:29:00.342
And so to, to, to go up that notch and have a movie made about something I wrote

00:29:00.342 --> 00:29:03.282
is like such a dream that I never even dreamt it.

00:29:03.422 --> 00:29:05.782
And so it's just been an amazing experience.

00:29:06.742 --> 00:29:14.482
Yeah. And that sounds awesome. So what, what did you learn about,

00:29:14.482 --> 00:29:17.642
about movie making, right it

00:29:17.642 --> 00:29:21.002
sounds like that was kind of an interesting experience

00:29:21.002 --> 00:29:25.122
you had the table read and all the people are already kind of like in character

00:29:25.122 --> 00:29:29.422
with their hairstyles right right well what what did what did you learn about

00:29:29.422 --> 00:29:35.322
that process and and and and interacting with oh there was one other question

00:29:35.322 --> 00:29:39.322
before you answer that did did did did miss endicott.

00:29:40.174 --> 00:29:45.014
I'm saying her name wrong. Right. Just say Lena, you know, Lena Derricotte. Derricotte.

00:29:45.234 --> 00:29:50.834
Lena Derricotte. Did Carrie get to interact with her any or was strictly between

00:29:50.834 --> 00:29:56.814
you and Carrie Washington as far as helping develop the background for a character?

00:29:57.194 --> 00:30:02.874
It really was. Tyler met with her several times, but I don't believe Carrie Washington ever had.

00:30:02.934 --> 00:30:07.674
So Carrie Washington was actually portraying the battalion commander, Charity Adams.

00:30:07.674 --> 00:30:10.754
And yeah and she had passed away she

00:30:10.754 --> 00:30:14.054
did write a memoir that's pretty good that's very good but

00:30:14.054 --> 00:30:17.154
i was able to talk with a charity adams son

00:30:17.154 --> 00:30:20.014
and so right before i flew down

00:30:20.014 --> 00:30:24.034
to atlanta he called me stanley and he said kevin can i tell you some stuff

00:30:24.034 --> 00:30:30.274
about my mom and i was like yeah bring it and i was able to tell carrie we were

00:30:30.274 --> 00:30:35.034
filming the scene when the women first arrive in birmingham england and i said

00:30:35.034 --> 00:30:38.834
carrie can i tell you some stuff and she said yeah i said Well, according to Stanley,

00:30:39.134 --> 00:30:42.874
she always wore yellow gloves because she wanted to look a little different.

00:30:43.034 --> 00:30:44.394
She didn't want to look like every other soldier.

00:30:45.214 --> 00:30:49.934
And Carrie leaned her head back and she went, wardrobe. And this guy came running

00:30:49.934 --> 00:30:52.654
over and she said, you've got to get the yellow gloves.

00:30:53.014 --> 00:30:56.654
And he said, we can't do it now, but we'll try to do it by the end of the movie.

00:30:56.974 --> 00:31:01.054
And if you watch the movie, the very last scene where they get saluted for their

00:31:01.054 --> 00:31:05.094
achievements, when she turns that salute back, she's wearing the yellow gloves.

00:31:05.094 --> 00:31:08.774
So for all of my contributions, that might be the one I'm most proud of.

00:31:09.454 --> 00:31:14.834
That's pretty cool. And for the record, Ebony Obsidian played Lena.

00:31:15.534 --> 00:31:20.254
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yes. And she did a fantastic job.

00:31:20.614 --> 00:31:25.574
Yeah. And so, yeah, that's, that's just cool. So.

00:31:27.229 --> 00:31:30.969
You once stated, well, I was going somewhere with another question and,

00:31:31.449 --> 00:31:36.029
oh, just talking about the experience. You asked me about what it was like, yeah.

00:31:36.309 --> 00:31:39.349
Yeah, your thoughts about the movie making experience.

00:31:39.749 --> 00:31:45.089
Yeah. So when I write, you know, I'm using different sources to put a piece of story together.

00:31:45.309 --> 00:31:51.489
And what I saw on set is Tyler filming sections and things over and over again,

00:31:51.529 --> 00:31:56.589
because he's just building a big, almost a library of things to then go through

00:31:56.589 --> 00:31:59.309
when he sits down to piece it all together.

00:31:59.529 --> 00:32:05.889
And I didn't realize to make a two hour film just takes so much effort from so many people.

00:32:06.029 --> 00:32:09.009
You know, I met all of the different producers, the set designers.

00:32:09.329 --> 00:32:12.009
We were, we were still in COVID protocol.

00:32:12.369 --> 00:32:15.629
And so I would sometimes pull my mask down to say something I'd forget.

00:32:15.649 --> 00:32:19.129
And they'd have someone on set going, sir, you know, got to put the mask up.

00:32:19.289 --> 00:32:20.729
And it was freezing rain.

00:32:20.929 --> 00:32:23.429
And a guy came up to me, he goes, here's some hand warmers. I mean,

00:32:23.529 --> 00:32:27.989
they just had people there to take care of you, you know, just to make everything smooth.

00:32:28.789 --> 00:32:35.429
And I came away with an immense respect for Tyler Perry because he is directing hundreds of people.

00:32:35.969 --> 00:32:40.229
And there was a scene where the women marched towards him and he's got the camera

00:32:40.229 --> 00:32:41.369
and everything. And he yells, cut.

00:32:41.809 --> 00:32:46.469
And he had a bullhorn. And he says, ladies, you got to do better than that.

00:32:46.869 --> 00:32:49.549
You're black. You got to know how to march.

00:32:50.109 --> 00:32:53.729
And everybody kind of started laughing. And then he said, it got on the bullhorn.

00:32:53.809 --> 00:32:55.409
He goes, don't make me yell at you.

00:32:55.709 --> 00:32:58.689
And everybody kind of stiffened their spines. And then he said,

00:32:58.829 --> 00:33:01.769
and worse, don't make Medea yell at you.

00:33:02.009 --> 00:33:04.229
And he launched into the Medea voice.

00:33:04.869 --> 00:33:09.009
Everybody laughed. And that was the atmosphere on set. He was in control.

00:33:09.029 --> 00:33:11.229
He was relaxed. He had a sense of humor.

00:33:11.609 --> 00:33:14.949
And it's one of those things like, if I ever direct a ton of people,

00:33:14.949 --> 00:33:20.229
I want to be like him and the man was so generous to me on so many levels.

00:33:21.135 --> 00:33:24.995
The women of the six AAA earned the congressional gold medal.

00:33:25.335 --> 00:33:27.655
There was an association that did all the work for that.

00:33:28.195 --> 00:33:33.495
And when they were going to give Lena hers in Las Vegas, they invited me and

00:33:33.495 --> 00:33:35.075
the ticket was like 800 bucks.

00:33:35.195 --> 00:33:37.155
And I'm like, guys, I just can't swing that.

00:33:37.715 --> 00:33:40.555
The next day, Tyler Perry's assistant called me and said, okay,

00:33:40.795 --> 00:33:42.135
Limo's going to meet you at the door.

00:33:42.355 --> 00:33:44.535
He's going to take you to the airport. He's going to fly you there.

00:33:44.675 --> 00:33:48.035
He's going to put you up in the Bellagio, you know, just everything,

00:33:48.035 --> 00:33:51.875
you know, he didn't have to do that, but that's the kind of person Tyler Perry is.

00:33:52.875 --> 00:33:56.235
That's awesome. Did you get to meet Oprah? I did not.

00:33:56.435 --> 00:34:01.215
She flew out the day I flew in, but I did get a photograph of her dressing room

00:34:01.215 --> 00:34:05.195
and all of my six sisters went crazy when I sent them that photo.

00:34:06.755 --> 00:34:11.455
Yeah, I, you know, I have a funny story real quick.

00:34:11.635 --> 00:34:17.295
So when, when I was running for the U.S. Senate in 2006 in Mississippi,

00:34:17.295 --> 00:34:20.915
mm-hmm oprah had dedicated a boys

00:34:20.915 --> 00:34:24.835
and girls club in her hometown of Kosciusko so

00:34:24.835 --> 00:34:28.235
there's a whole lot of stories we

00:34:28.235 --> 00:34:33.175
can get into all that but directly with oprah so i'm talking with Gayle King

00:34:33.175 --> 00:34:38.615
and she's doing the typical gayle king thing do you know cory booker and how

00:34:38.615 --> 00:34:42.075
long you've been in politics yeah yeah and all that stuff and she really was

00:34:42.075 --> 00:34:47.555
kind of holding me hoping that i could get a chance to physically meet Oprah.

00:34:47.895 --> 00:34:55.095
And then her, she got called away because they were all going to Oprah's aunt's house.

00:34:55.355 --> 00:34:57.615
So I went to,

00:34:58.224 --> 00:35:04.484
and talk to somebody else. And then Oprah was standing like by herself,

00:35:04.724 --> 00:35:06.184
like right there in the lobby.

00:35:06.904 --> 00:35:11.884
And so, right. Gail saw me. She said, there she is. There she is.

00:35:12.084 --> 00:35:13.824
Right. And then she disappeared again.

00:35:14.164 --> 00:35:19.764
So I'm making my way to Oprah. And sure enough, some woman physically grabbed

00:35:19.764 --> 00:35:21.924
oprah by the shoulders and said, we have to leave.

00:35:22.284 --> 00:35:25.984
And she turned Oprah around and they were gone. It was almost like Secret Service

00:35:25.984 --> 00:35:28.444
action. And so I was like, this close.

00:35:30.044 --> 00:35:33.264
I mean, I was right there on the stage, you know what I'm saying,

00:35:33.284 --> 00:35:36.684
close to her, but I never got a chance to say anything to her.

00:35:36.804 --> 00:35:41.224
So I definitely know how you feel about all that. And then one day I'll tell

00:35:41.224 --> 00:35:44.624
you the whole story, but I just wanted to get that abbreviated thing.

00:35:44.744 --> 00:35:48.844
It's like, you know, when you get that close, you want to at least shake their

00:35:48.844 --> 00:35:50.144
hand or talk to them or something.

00:35:50.304 --> 00:35:52.704
But I definitely understand. At least you got an address.

00:35:53.264 --> 00:35:57.084
So real quick when we when i went to the hollywood premiere i

00:35:57.084 --> 00:36:00.584
met a number of celebrities we were walking the it's

00:36:00.584 --> 00:36:05.904
a black carpet it's not a red carpet and i kind of finished up i saw tyler so

00:36:05.904 --> 00:36:08.684
i went over and talked to him and he introduced me some people and i went into

00:36:08.684 --> 00:36:12.564
the theater and i didn't know it but oprah came in behind me and they all did

00:36:12.564 --> 00:36:17.244
pictures with all the producers and stuff and i was like oh i missed that she's

00:36:17.244 --> 00:36:20.464
not across the aisle from me with two bodyguards,

00:36:20.944 --> 00:36:24.044
and sitting three rows behind her was George Lucas.

00:36:24.704 --> 00:36:27.564
And I turned to my sister who I brought as my plus one.

00:36:27.904 --> 00:36:30.584
And I said, listen, I don't think I'm ever going to have this chance again.

00:36:30.684 --> 00:36:34.364
I'm going to go talk to George Lucas and try to get some pictures.

00:36:34.484 --> 00:36:36.424
Cause I took a picture. I got like the back of his head.

00:36:36.924 --> 00:36:40.384
And so I went over and I said, Mr. Lucas, my name's Kevin Hymel.

00:36:40.424 --> 00:36:42.024
I wrote the article, the movie's based on.

00:36:42.144 --> 00:36:45.184
And I just wanted you to know that Tyler called me one day and told me that

00:36:45.184 --> 00:36:48.764
you had seen a rough cut and you had some questions and we worked to answer

00:36:48.764 --> 00:36:50.304
all your questions for the film.

00:36:50.464 --> 00:36:55.284
And I think it's a better film because of your contribution. And he went, okay.

00:36:56.217 --> 00:37:00.197
And I said, okay, you have a great night, sir. And so I went back to my sister

00:37:00.197 --> 00:37:02.357
and I said, did you get that?

00:37:02.477 --> 00:37:06.177
And she said, no, I was trying to get an angle on Oprah to get her picture.

00:37:06.357 --> 00:37:07.837
And so she totally missed it.

00:37:08.297 --> 00:37:11.617
But I did get to meet this young man.

00:37:12.037 --> 00:37:17.557
He was so emotional. He was holding a picture of his grandmother in uniform. She had been in the 6888.

00:37:17.857 --> 00:37:21.477
He hugged me three times and he got a bit teary-eyed. And he said,

00:37:21.617 --> 00:37:23.197
thank you so much for what you've done.

00:37:23.237 --> 00:37:26.877
This is so powerful. And I was like, I'm happy to do it.

00:37:27.177 --> 00:37:30.697
And then later on Entertainment Tonight, they were doing a story on the red

00:37:30.697 --> 00:37:31.917
carpet there, the black carpet.

00:37:32.097 --> 00:37:36.477
And they said, even rapper Little Sean was there. And I'm like,

00:37:36.637 --> 00:37:38.397
I didn't know who that was.

00:37:39.017 --> 00:37:42.257
So I met little Sean and I sat next

00:37:42.257 --> 00:37:45.017
to Mookie Betts the outfielder for

00:37:45.017 --> 00:37:47.997
the for the Mets I'm sorry for the Dodgers and he

00:37:47.997 --> 00:37:53.477
told me he said what you've done is amazing and I said me you won the World

00:37:53.477 --> 00:37:58.457
Series you know I think I pale in comparison to that now that's maybe my bias

00:37:58.457 --> 00:38:03.377
but that's that's part of the amazing experience the people I got to meet you

00:38:03.377 --> 00:38:06.277
know through this process and just everything being positive.

00:38:06.437 --> 00:38:09.937
No one was like, can't believe you wrote this. I mean, everybody was happy and

00:38:09.937 --> 00:38:11.637
excited and I was happy for them.

00:38:12.557 --> 00:38:15.997
Yeah. Yeah. That just sounds incredible. That's a cool experience.

00:38:16.537 --> 00:38:21.297
So let's dial it down and talk about a not so cool experience.

00:38:21.757 --> 00:38:27.757
You once stated that the most deplorable trait of a historical figure was prejudice.

00:38:28.517 --> 00:38:32.097
How did prejudice impact your research,

00:38:32.877 --> 00:38:35.937
on the six triple a was it

00:38:35.937 --> 00:38:39.237
it didn't sound like you had any real

00:38:39.237 --> 00:38:42.497
issue other than you you had

00:38:42.497 --> 00:38:45.457
the only real set of records kept on

00:38:45.457 --> 00:38:52.437
them but as far as like maybe reading through some of the stuff you know were

00:38:52.437 --> 00:38:55.737
you you know were you somewhat uncomfortable about some of the language that

00:38:55.737 --> 00:39:00.697
was used just kind of talk about you know as you were putting everything together

00:39:00.697 --> 00:39:04.297
for the article So what kind of shook you a little bit?

00:39:05.757 --> 00:39:07.637
Well, there was definitely the use of the N-word.

00:39:08.586 --> 00:39:12.246
And I had heard about it before, but then to hear it from someone directly that,

00:39:12.526 --> 00:39:16.026
you know, when they got to England, that the British were very hesitant around

00:39:16.026 --> 00:39:20.966
them and they, you know, found out that they had been told by white soldiers

00:39:20.966 --> 00:39:23.066
that, you know, African-Americans had tails,

00:39:23.686 --> 00:39:28.926
you know, to hear that from somebody that they had actually been told that was just very real to me.

00:39:29.426 --> 00:39:33.846
And I didn't want to ignore any of that in my writing. To me,

00:39:33.986 --> 00:39:36.966
that, you know, in some ways is the most important part.

00:39:37.086 --> 00:39:41.726
I think that our country's history with racism, systemic racism,

00:39:41.946 --> 00:39:46.806
however you want to describe it, a big part of that is erasure of history.

00:39:47.326 --> 00:39:52.286
And so, you know, I heard this story and I just wanted to tell it.

00:39:52.366 --> 00:39:55.686
I wanted the people to understand, with everybody I interview,

00:39:55.826 --> 00:39:58.586
I want people to understand them and what they've gone through.

00:39:59.066 --> 00:40:03.466
And so to me, the prejudice is almost as important as any other element of the story.

00:40:03.466 --> 00:40:07.506
Story and you know and i do mention about you know lena not realizing i was

00:40:07.506 --> 00:40:11.026
white and i think that her thinking i was black because we're just talking on

00:40:11.026 --> 00:40:14.926
the phone i think made her more comfortable to talk about the prejudice she

00:40:14.926 --> 00:40:16.586
faced so i'm very grateful for that,

00:40:17.046 --> 00:40:22.026
but you know it never really made me uncomfortable because i wanted to tell that story and.

00:40:22.585 --> 00:40:28.325
I know that people use the N-word even today, so nothing really shocked me,

00:40:28.445 --> 00:40:29.825
but I wanted to make sure it was known.

00:40:29.965 --> 00:40:35.425
And actually, I gave a few examples in my story of the prejudice that Lena specifically

00:40:35.425 --> 00:40:40.065
faced, and my editor cut some of those out, and I was very upset about it.

00:40:40.545 --> 00:40:43.305
And I called him up. I'm like, why did you cut this part out?

00:40:43.325 --> 00:40:46.005
He goes, well, you already addressed it. And he goes, actually,

00:40:46.125 --> 00:40:49.845
Kevin, it's a little bit your fault because you wrote an extra sidebar about

00:40:49.845 --> 00:40:52.925
the memorial. So we had to cut parts out of the story.

00:40:53.145 --> 00:40:55.705
Now, fortunately, I kept the original manuscript.

00:40:55.985 --> 00:40:58.005
So when Tyler contacted me, I

00:40:58.005 --> 00:41:02.265
sent him the manuscript so he would have all those more resources to use.

00:41:02.625 --> 00:41:06.625
I also would like to mention that the women of the Six Triple Eight Association.

00:41:07.265 --> 00:41:11.685
Liz Helm Frazier and Edna Cummings, after this, they would contact me and say,

00:41:11.785 --> 00:41:12.885
Kevin, and we got another veteran.

00:41:13.385 --> 00:41:17.605
And I would say, well, would you like a black woman to interview her?

00:41:17.725 --> 00:41:21.125
Because I understand where I stand on all of this, you know,

00:41:21.225 --> 00:41:22.485
and I don't want to be disrespectful.

00:41:22.905 --> 00:41:26.945
And they'd say, no, you know, the story, you know how to get published.

00:41:27.165 --> 00:41:31.665
We want you to do it. So it was something I was, my position as a white male,

00:41:31.665 --> 00:41:35.205
I was acutely aware of and never wanted to overstep.

00:41:35.425 --> 00:41:40.985
And with a lot of my story, my interviews with veterans, I don't do a lot of opinion.

00:41:41.365 --> 00:41:44.765
It's like, you tell me your story, I will put it into words.

00:41:44.965 --> 00:41:46.485
That is what I do as an historian.

00:41:46.945 --> 00:41:50.725
And, you know, with a biography, you know, I wait till the end to give a conclusion

00:41:50.725 --> 00:41:56.025
of sorts, but with articles, no, their story does the job. Yeah.

00:41:56.905 --> 00:42:06.265
So last question, why is it important to know the history of African-Americans in the military?

00:42:07.405 --> 00:42:11.285
You know, a lot of people, a lot of young people,

00:42:12.304 --> 00:42:19.764
just don't really know that the military was segregated for a long time.

00:42:20.284 --> 00:42:27.104
And, you know, they're used to seeing now relatives or their parents may have served or whatever.

00:42:27.324 --> 00:42:33.444
So they can't really, until they read it, they can't really conceive that at one time the U.S.

00:42:33.584 --> 00:42:39.604
Military was segregated. Why do you think, as a historian, why do you think

00:42:39.604 --> 00:42:44.544
that's important to tell those stories about the African-American contributions?

00:42:45.484 --> 00:42:51.304
I think it's important because when you're dealing with prejudice.

00:42:52.264 --> 00:42:55.084
One of the things you want, if you're prejudiced towards a group,

00:42:55.364 --> 00:42:57.864
you want to be able to say, hey, they're not like us.

00:42:57.904 --> 00:43:00.104
They don't love our country like we do.

00:43:00.284 --> 00:43:03.084
They've never done anything for us. you know

00:43:03.084 --> 00:43:05.804
and by doing the research and finding out no

00:43:05.804 --> 00:43:08.804
you're wrong they contributed just as much as everybody

00:43:08.804 --> 00:43:15.424
else but that story is just not being told on the same level so it's really

00:43:15.424 --> 00:43:20.124
incumbent on the historian to go find those stories and illuminate them and

00:43:20.124 --> 00:43:26.024
say no no no no everybody contributed there everybody was patriotic and i stress

00:43:26.024 --> 00:43:28.424
this with the six triple eight You know,

00:43:28.664 --> 00:43:33.444
a lot of military historians or even history buffs, they love to say how soldiers

00:43:33.444 --> 00:43:36.684
in the airborne and soldiers in the rangers were all volunteers.

00:43:37.264 --> 00:43:42.284
Well, guess what? Every single woman that served in the military in World War II was a volunteer.

00:43:42.584 --> 00:43:47.424
There was no draft for women. So they made that choice to put themselves in

00:43:47.424 --> 00:43:50.324
harm's way to defeat our country's enemies.

00:43:50.684 --> 00:43:55.644
And I think it was important, particularly in World War II with a segregated military.

00:43:56.244 --> 00:43:59.344
Why would anybody want to serve in a segregated military where you're going

00:43:59.344 --> 00:44:01.144
to be treated like a second-class citizen?

00:44:01.504 --> 00:44:04.244
Because you're going to make it better for future generations.

00:44:04.564 --> 00:44:08.964
And now there's a lot of scholarship coming out saying that the civil rights

00:44:08.964 --> 00:44:15.984
movement of the 60s was rooted in World War II because blacks volunteered into tanks and planes,

00:44:16.444 --> 00:44:18.464
pitching the mail, doing what it took.

00:44:18.944 --> 00:44:24.764
And not only did it show that African-Americans were just as patriotic as everybody else,

00:44:24.764 --> 00:44:30.124
But it also gave exposure to prejudiced white soldiers to suddenly see a black

00:44:30.124 --> 00:44:34.844
soldier on the battlefield doing their job, risking their lives and going, oh,

00:44:35.324 --> 00:44:37.304
maybe I was wrong about all this.

00:44:37.644 --> 00:44:42.564
And so it gave that feeling to whites that, you know, this stuff our parents

00:44:42.564 --> 00:44:44.024
told us might not be true.

00:44:44.284 --> 00:44:48.944
So when you see the civil rights marches from the 1960s, it's not all black people.

00:44:49.084 --> 00:44:53.064
There are white people in those groups, too, that realize that this is an injustice

00:44:53.064 --> 00:44:54.244
and it must be corrected.

00:44:55.110 --> 00:45:00.250
And, you know, even today where there's a lot of, you know, canceling of African-American

00:45:00.250 --> 00:45:01.890
events within the federal government,

00:45:02.130 --> 00:45:05.490
you know, in different places, Black History Month, I mean, the evidence is

00:45:05.490 --> 00:45:09.210
right there today that there's an attempted erasure going on.

00:45:09.290 --> 00:45:11.110
And it'll always be that way.

00:45:11.250 --> 00:45:15.790
And so you always kind of have to push for these things because it's important,

00:45:15.790 --> 00:45:21.890
you know, that these people serve, that everybody who wanted to served and don't

00:45:21.890 --> 00:45:23.010
try to tell me differently.

00:45:23.010 --> 00:45:26.130
And so I can write lots of articles and

00:45:26.130 --> 00:45:29.250
they'll get out to 50 70,000 people but for

00:45:29.250 --> 00:45:32.610
Tyler Perry to make a movie out of it suddenly millions

00:45:32.610 --> 00:45:37.350
and millions of people are becoming aware and with the the number one thing

00:45:37.350 --> 00:45:44.110
people tell me when they meet me I had no idea and I'm like good now you do

00:45:44.110 --> 00:45:50.190
you know and I gave a talk the other day that when I enter when I see somebody and hear their a vet.

00:45:50.370 --> 00:45:54.230
I want to interview them. I want to write their story, but I'm only one person.

00:45:54.610 --> 00:45:58.670
And it drives me nuts to meet people who go, oh my gosh, I met this guy.

00:45:58.810 --> 00:46:02.170
He did all these great things. I'm like, did you write it down? No.

00:46:04.150 --> 00:46:08.690
Hearing historical stories is great. Interviewing a vet or anyone who has gone

00:46:08.690 --> 00:46:10.310
through an historical event, great.

00:46:10.810 --> 00:46:14.890
Write it down because you never know a hundred years from now,

00:46:15.090 --> 00:46:20.470
an historian like me is going to go digging in archives and libraries and all

00:46:20.470 --> 00:46:22.830
different sources to try to tell that story.

00:46:23.290 --> 00:46:25.190
And it's important that you help.

00:46:26.350 --> 00:46:33.690
Yeah. So, so Kevin, how can people get in touch with you? How can they follow you?

00:46:33.910 --> 00:46:37.750
How can they sign up for one of those tours you do? Just go ahead and give me your spiel.

00:46:38.690 --> 00:46:43.490
Sure. So I'm on Facebook, But more importantly, I give all my tours with a company

00:46:43.490 --> 00:46:45.830
called Stephen Ambrose Historical Tours.

00:46:46.310 --> 00:46:50.110
Ambrose is famous for writing the book Band of Brothers, and that was really

00:46:50.110 --> 00:46:51.490
the first tour the company did.

00:46:51.630 --> 00:46:54.930
But they also do D-Day tours. I lead General Patton tours.

00:46:55.530 --> 00:47:01.150
Last year, maybe two years ago, I co-led a tour for the 6888,

00:47:01.290 --> 00:47:06.030
where we took the descendants of the 6888 members to all the locations where

00:47:06.030 --> 00:47:08.530
the women did their jobs in World War II.

00:47:08.930 --> 00:47:12.950
And I know they're looking to keep that tour going. And so I would encourage

00:47:12.950 --> 00:47:16.290
people, if you're inspired by the movie, go on one of these tours.

00:47:16.630 --> 00:47:19.750
And if you're the opposite of that and you want a tour of a great,

00:47:19.870 --> 00:47:22.210
brilliant general who was really racist, come on my tour.

00:47:27.215 --> 00:47:31.895
Well, Kevin, I, Kevin, he meant, I, he meant, I'm sorry.

00:47:32.135 --> 00:47:37.375
I greatly appreciate the fact that, that you were the one who,

00:47:37.375 --> 00:47:39.635
who was able to tell that story.

00:47:40.795 --> 00:47:46.635
And I, I, like I said, I have a soft spot for teachers. I have a soft spot for historians.

00:47:47.275 --> 00:47:53.055
I love history. I think that you can't really do a lot of stuff,

00:47:53.075 --> 00:47:58.015
especially somebody like me that's political, unless you have the backstory.

00:47:58.295 --> 00:48:04.655
You know, it's one thing to react to what you see, but you got to understand why this is happening.

00:48:04.875 --> 00:48:07.195
Something led to that moment, right?

00:48:07.635 --> 00:48:09.815
So I greatly appreciate you who

00:48:09.815 --> 00:48:14.455
dedicates your time to make sure that that history is retained and told.

00:48:15.175 --> 00:48:20.575
So thank you for that. But I also want to thank you for coming on the podcast.

00:48:21.035 --> 00:48:24.295
It's been an honor for me to talk to you. It's been fun.

00:48:24.635 --> 00:48:28.635
And I wish we had more time. But again, just thank you for coming on,

00:48:28.755 --> 00:48:30.675
man, and doing what you're doing. I appreciate you.

00:48:30.855 --> 00:48:33.735
Hey, you can invite me back anytime, Erik. I appreciate you, man.

00:48:34.235 --> 00:48:39.175
Well, I'm glad you said that because every guest has an open invitation to come back.

00:48:39.335 --> 00:48:43.055
So if there's like, you know, something burning that you want to just reach

00:48:43.055 --> 00:48:47.715
out and I know Now I can reach out to you and I greatly appreciate that. Thank you.

00:48:47.915 --> 00:48:50.015
You got it. You got it, man. You have a great day.

00:48:50.615 --> 00:48:53.875
All right, sir. All right, guys, we'll catch y'all on the other side.

00:48:55.920 --> 00:49:14.160
Music.

00:49:14.007 --> 00:49:20.987
All right. And we are back. And so now it's time for my next guest, Kristin Couch.

00:49:21.567 --> 00:49:28.027
Kristin Couch, a licensed master social worker, currently works as the associate

00:49:28.027 --> 00:49:32.107
director in the Title IX and Compliance Office at Spelman College.

00:49:32.927 --> 00:49:35.987
She co-chairs the Fulton County Family Violence Task Force,

00:49:36.267 --> 00:49:41.067
is an advisory board member for the Survivors Home Initiative with United Way

00:49:41.067 --> 00:49:46.447
of Greater Atlanta's Regional Commission on Homelessness, and is a state expert

00:49:46.447 --> 00:49:50.687
committee member for sexual violence with the Criminal Justice Coordinating Council.

00:49:51.047 --> 00:49:57.727
In totality, Kristen has worked in the gender-based violence field for over 10 years.

00:49:57.727 --> 00:50:03.047
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:50:03.047 --> 00:50:06.367
on this podcast, Kristin Couch.

00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:18.800
Music.

00:50:17.267 --> 00:50:20.987
All right, Kristin Couch, how are you doing, ma'am? You doing good?

00:50:21.647 --> 00:50:25.987
I'm doing well today. It feels like spring is trying to come a little early,

00:50:25.987 --> 00:50:28.247
and I welcome her with open arms.

00:50:29.147 --> 00:50:33.147
Well, I'm glad it's warmed up a little bit down here in Atlanta.

00:50:33.327 --> 00:50:35.527
This is the way I expected to be here.

00:50:35.847 --> 00:50:39.447
I grew up in Chicago, so this time of year is still cold.

00:50:41.327 --> 00:50:47.447
So I'm like, you know, I've been in the South now, God, 40 some years.

00:50:47.447 --> 00:50:55.207
I'm used to my winters being a lot milder than what I was growing up.

00:50:55.347 --> 00:50:57.667
So I greatly appreciate that.

00:50:59.009 --> 00:51:02.229
As we're recording today, this is supposed to be the boycott day.

00:51:02.389 --> 00:51:08.009
So I've kind of basically just bunkered down so I wouldn't spend any money.

00:51:10.149 --> 00:51:14.289
Me too. I had to prep. Somebody reminded me last night and I'm like,

00:51:14.369 --> 00:51:18.529
okay, I think I've prepped and I think I'm ready for it. Exactly. Yeah.

00:51:18.769 --> 00:51:22.429
So it's going to be interesting to see how that shakes out, what the report is.

00:51:24.109 --> 00:51:30.709
So I want to get into I reached out to you because you have a very unique job

00:51:30.709 --> 00:51:34.109
and I want to get into the details of that.

00:51:34.249 --> 00:51:40.109
But before I do that, I kind of do like this old counselor consulting in me,

00:51:40.269 --> 00:51:43.129
I guess, for lack of a better term, do some icebreakers.

00:51:44.009 --> 00:51:50.289
So the first icebreaker is a quote. And your quote is, you owe it to yourself

00:51:50.289 --> 00:51:54.749
and everyone that loves you to never give up.

00:51:55.009 --> 00:51:56.689
What does that quote mean to you?

00:51:57.429 --> 00:51:59.229
Oh, that resonates so deeply.

00:52:00.129 --> 00:52:07.989
With the work that I do around gender-based violence, so that looks like various

00:52:07.989 --> 00:52:12.649
forms of, and trigger warning, sexual violence, relationship violence,

00:52:13.009 --> 00:52:15.349
stalking, and gender discrimination.

00:52:15.349 --> 00:52:18.389
I think about the people,

00:52:18.869 --> 00:52:24.949
the women in particular, and my family who have navigated those things and what

00:52:24.949 --> 00:52:28.389
that means in our family dynamics,

00:52:28.389 --> 00:52:33.049
what that means for them personally, but also what that means generationally

00:52:33.049 --> 00:52:39.829
and how those issues or matters may have shown up throughout our timelines in

00:52:39.829 --> 00:52:43.929
different ways and impacted decisions and life making.

00:52:43.929 --> 00:52:48.689
And, you know, the kind of partner that you choose, how you rear your children.

00:52:48.989 --> 00:52:54.809
And so that particular quote makes me think, keep going in this space because

00:52:54.809 --> 00:52:56.269
there's still a lot of work to do.

00:52:57.740 --> 00:53:01.940
And my ancestors are rooting for me so that way we can give them the best to

00:53:01.940 --> 00:53:06.820
demonstrate that we can do better than what we have been in prior history. Yeah.

00:53:08.540 --> 00:53:12.740
I need you to give me a number between one and twenty.

00:53:13.500 --> 00:53:20.200
Two. My favorite number is two. Oh, good. Well, my birthday is February 2nd, so keep that in mind.

00:53:22.260 --> 00:53:28.240
Thank you. Who was your favorite president of all time? and why?

00:53:30.420 --> 00:53:34.060
I don't think I really have one, to be quite honest with you.

00:53:34.760 --> 00:53:40.580
I would have said if I was younger, maybe Clinton,

00:53:40.860 --> 00:53:46.600
but that was the first president I remember, or the first president that I remember

00:53:46.600 --> 00:53:52.100
people having political discussions in my family about when I was coming up,

00:53:52.220 --> 00:53:58.320
and him and the conversations around him being adjacent to Blackness.

00:53:58.460 --> 00:54:00.240
I remember that the most.

00:54:01.420 --> 00:54:05.220
Maybe Obama, because that was the first time I was able to vote.

00:54:05.480 --> 00:54:11.480
That was the first experience. And I remember my dad being a super proud Black

00:54:11.480 --> 00:54:13.920
man and super into education.

00:54:14.340 --> 00:54:18.100
He was a first generation grad, he actually went to Morris Brown,

00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:26.160
and how his pride or just his enthusiasm around seeing someone who looked like

00:54:26.160 --> 00:54:27.980
him in that particular position.

00:54:28.720 --> 00:54:34.400
And I remember the celebrations around it, you know, the Jeezy music video,

00:54:34.500 --> 00:54:40.360
my president is Black, my Lambo is blue, being home or being able to stay home

00:54:40.360 --> 00:54:42.460
on his inauguration day.

00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:50.380
And also I hear a lot that I look or resemble some of his family members.

00:54:50.560 --> 00:54:53.680
I get that pretty often, which is hilarious to me.

00:54:54.360 --> 00:54:57.540
But if I were to pick one, I would say President Obama.

00:54:58.440 --> 00:55:01.060
Okay. So to date myself.

00:55:02.583 --> 00:55:08.183
Jimmy Carter was the first president that I actively paid attention to.

00:55:08.963 --> 00:55:14.543
I was, ever since I was like three years old, I was always intrigued by the

00:55:14.543 --> 00:55:15.463
president of the United States.

00:55:15.703 --> 00:55:18.503
I used to have these world book encyclopedias, right?

00:55:18.783 --> 00:55:22.303
And so the president spread was like two pages.

00:55:22.543 --> 00:55:28.383
The opening spread was two pages. So it had all the pictures of all the presidents up to that point.

00:55:28.763 --> 00:55:34.723
And that just fascinated me. And I think that's what triggered me to get into politics.

00:55:35.163 --> 00:55:42.683
But I remember Carter's convention, the 76 convention was like, wow, this is so cool.

00:55:42.823 --> 00:55:45.903
You know what I'm saying? And I didn't understand all the dynamics,

00:55:45.903 --> 00:55:51.743
but, you know, it was like I could feel that vibe, you know what I'm saying?

00:55:51.763 --> 00:55:55.243
Through the TV. And so that was that was pretty cool.

00:55:55.483 --> 00:56:00.543
And, you know, I aspired to get there, but I didn't. But, you know, it's OK.

00:56:00.823 --> 00:56:03.443
I landed pretty good. I did all right.

00:56:03.943 --> 00:56:11.843
But while you were voting for Obama, I was on the same ticket with him.

00:56:11.843 --> 00:56:13.143
I was running for the U.S.

00:56:13.203 --> 00:56:17.103
Senate that year in 2008 in Mississippi, of all places.

00:56:17.983 --> 00:56:24.583
But, yeah, I was on the same ballot. So, yeah, that was kind of an exciting time for me, too.

00:56:25.703 --> 00:56:30.483
So talk to the audience about your role, because you kind of touched on a little

00:56:30.483 --> 00:56:32.283
bit in your answer on the quote.

00:56:32.603 --> 00:56:36.363
What exactly is your role at Spelman College?

00:56:36.363 --> 00:56:40.063
So my role has changed,

00:56:40.263 --> 00:56:46.783
or at least things have evolved over the years, but primarily I oversee things

00:56:46.783 --> 00:56:52.723
related to direct services out of the Title IX and compliance office.

00:56:52.723 --> 00:56:56.023
And so that looks like if someone makes a report,

00:56:56.343 --> 00:57:03.203
if someone is wanting to understand what resources look like,

00:57:03.343 --> 00:57:08.323
potentially explore what a resolution process could look like under Title IX,

00:57:08.523 --> 00:57:16.103
but also just as a survivor or complainant, right, with using the language connected to Title IX.

00:57:16.103 --> 00:57:21.223
The complainant and the survivor are essentially the same. It's just different terminology.

00:57:21.783 --> 00:57:26.563
But I oversee direct services, case management.

00:57:27.003 --> 00:57:32.643
More recently, I started to manage training out of our office.

00:57:32.643 --> 00:57:37.063
And so meeting with different stakeholders on campus and even some external

00:57:37.063 --> 00:57:41.263
partners and doing some training with them, helping folks to understand how

00:57:41.263 --> 00:57:45.883
Title IX can serve them in times of need, what it looks like.

00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:52.260
What it means to have a Title IX office in your community, and also just what

00:57:52.260 --> 00:57:55.240
resources are available for folks.

00:57:55.380 --> 00:57:58.660
That's primarily the thing, particularly around gender-based violence.

00:57:59.260 --> 00:58:03.080
There's not always a trust with certain systems and processes.

00:58:03.620 --> 00:58:09.480
And so knowing that, being intentional about despite that, making sure that

00:58:09.480 --> 00:58:13.600
there's some type of resource available in the community, even if it doesn't

00:58:13.600 --> 00:58:15.540
reach our office, so to speak.

00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:20.080
Now we do have, once we get wind of something, we have an obligation to reach out.

00:58:20.520 --> 00:58:25.080
But the person who that we reach out to or that the report is about doesn't

00:58:25.080 --> 00:58:27.600
have to follow up with us if they don't want to.

00:58:27.760 --> 00:58:32.620
I like to think that we operate from a place where we don't want to re-victimize

00:58:32.620 --> 00:58:35.300
someone by making them make a choice.

00:58:35.520 --> 00:58:39.580
If their choice is not to engage with us, that should remain their choice.

00:58:39.900 --> 00:58:45.080
The only time we step in is if we notice that one individual is starting to

00:58:45.080 --> 00:58:48.920
show up in other individual cases, and this is starting to become a pattern,

00:58:49.540 --> 00:58:51.160
then we as an institution have

00:58:51.160 --> 00:58:56.320
to say, for the safety, we have to put some protective measures in place.

00:58:56.800 --> 00:58:59.440
But in the gist, that's about it for me.

00:59:00.300 --> 00:59:08.500
Yeah. So a lot of us, a lot of people have heard Title IX as related to sports,

00:59:08.680 --> 00:59:11.100
women's sports, And that's been a big issue.

00:59:11.940 --> 00:59:15.620
But Title IX is a lot bigger than that.

00:59:15.820 --> 00:59:26.980
So in your best Cliff Notes voice, kind of explain what Title IX actually is as far as federal law go.

00:59:27.740 --> 00:59:34.340
Sure. So Title IX is a federal law that says that any institution that's receiving

00:59:34.340 --> 00:59:39.160
federal funds from the government cannot discriminate based on sex.

00:59:39.400 --> 00:59:42.080
And that's pretty much it.

00:59:42.340 --> 00:59:47.860
And like, if you've read the definition of Title IX, I kind of summarize it in that way.

00:59:48.300 --> 00:59:54.380
But we know culturally, community-wise, that means so many different things.

00:59:54.380 --> 00:59:58.920
And even with the prior administration,

00:59:59.400 --> 01:00:03.960
them having conversations as it relates to gender, they expounded on that and

01:00:03.960 --> 01:00:09.400
even offering protections for folks who were experiencing discrimination in that way.

01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:15.660
But discrimination based on sex shows up in so many different ways.

01:00:15.660 --> 01:00:21.100
It impacts a lot of different populations on campus. It's literally...

01:00:22.254 --> 01:00:25.794
You know, Title IX itself is targeting access.

01:00:26.114 --> 01:00:31.014
It's making sure that everyone has the same kind of access, despite what your sex is.

01:00:31.174 --> 01:00:35.494
So that's the athletics conversation, making sure that women who were interested

01:00:35.494 --> 01:00:40.534
in sports had the same abilities and access that men did, and making sure that

01:00:40.534 --> 01:00:44.974
those doors, if there was some type of discriminatory behavior happening.

01:00:46.014 --> 01:00:51.854
Setting the message nationally, universally, that that's not something that can be tolerated.

01:00:52.254 --> 01:00:56.634
And this will strip your funding if this is how you want to continue.

01:00:57.014 --> 01:01:01.634
Some institutions don't use federal funds and then they make their certain rules,

01:01:01.834 --> 01:01:03.554
certain things they do have to abide by.

01:01:03.874 --> 01:01:08.654
But there are some institutions who seek exclusion or exception under certain things.

01:01:08.654 --> 01:01:15.974
But it goes into the athletics. It goes into STEM programs and making sure that

01:01:15.974 --> 01:01:23.014
all genders have access to be able to enter that field or all those fields and engage.

01:01:23.014 --> 01:01:29.014
It also goes into pregnancy and parenting students and protecting their rights that way.

01:01:29.234 --> 01:01:32.874
Because sometimes even well-meaning folks might tell someone,

01:01:33.134 --> 01:01:38.794
or rather may have an attitude that a student who's pregnant shouldn't be in school.

01:01:39.514 --> 01:01:45.134
When in reality, this might be the avenue, the best avenue for the students

01:01:45.134 --> 01:01:49.614
to complete their education and learning so that way they can support their child.

01:01:50.174 --> 01:01:54.074
It also manifests with gender-based violence.

01:01:54.294 --> 01:02:00.154
And under Title IX regulations, sexual assault, violence, relationship violence,

01:02:00.314 --> 01:02:05.034
stalking, those things fall under, can be viewed as sexual harassment,

01:02:05.034 --> 01:02:06.114
and thus discrimination.

01:02:06.954 --> 01:02:10.614
And it's a whole host of different things to consider.

01:02:10.774 --> 01:02:15.374
What population, what kind of student gets access to this campus?

01:02:15.394 --> 01:02:19.494
What kind of restrictions can be given, right?

01:02:19.594 --> 01:02:24.854
Especially if you're looking at institutions who want to remain just women or

01:02:24.854 --> 01:02:29.594
just men, exploring what that means and what their admission policies look like.

01:02:30.054 --> 01:02:36.014
And of course, Title IX can sometimes be viewed as this space of,

01:02:36.194 --> 01:02:38.754
it's just there to protect the institution.

01:02:39.114 --> 01:02:44.114
And unfortunately, Title IX sometimes gets that rep for various reasons,

01:02:44.274 --> 01:02:45.474
sometimes valid reasons.

01:02:45.794 --> 01:02:53.214
But I think Title IX, or Title IX administrators do the minimum when it's just

01:02:53.214 --> 01:02:54.974
about protecting the institution.

01:02:54.974 --> 01:03:02.214
You may only be limited to just exploring resolution options and making sure that the campus is safe.

01:03:02.474 --> 01:03:06.874
But I think going beyond that and making sure that the survivor and even the

01:03:06.874 --> 01:03:12.354
respondent has the resources that they need while they're navigating a process.

01:03:12.714 --> 01:03:16.494
But even if they're not navigating a process, how are you connecting with your

01:03:16.494 --> 01:03:20.394
community to ensure that they know where these resources are?

01:03:21.498 --> 01:03:26.258
Title IX is also about equity. So whatever is given, whatever rights are given

01:03:26.258 --> 01:03:29.778
to a complainant must also be extended to the respondent or the person who's

01:03:29.778 --> 01:03:31.838
been alleged to cause harm.

01:03:32.298 --> 01:03:38.458
And sometimes there's opportunity for resources to be given to a respondent,

01:03:38.558 --> 01:03:41.978
for a respondent to explore, especially if something's been found,

01:03:42.138 --> 01:03:43.438
like if they've been found responsible.

01:03:43.438 --> 01:03:48.638
And sometimes I wonder if we're meeting that mark as administrators,

01:03:48.638 --> 01:03:51.958
making sure that everyone has the resources,

01:03:51.958 --> 01:03:57.678
because regardless of some harm is taking place and two students or faculty

01:03:57.678 --> 01:04:03.878
or staff are going to walk away from the situation being impacted regardless

01:04:03.878 --> 01:04:08.998
of how the outcome of the process came. So what are some resources?

01:04:09.378 --> 01:04:15.498
What's the community around Title IX? How does Title IX show up in this particular

01:04:15.498 --> 01:04:20.578
college's community to make sure everybody has what they need in order to heal

01:04:20.578 --> 01:04:24.058
and move forward in a more healthier way? Yeah.

01:04:24.858 --> 01:04:32.218
So what is your biggest or I don't know if I want to change it to unique,

01:04:32.378 --> 01:04:38.398
but what is your biggest challenge you face doing what you do at an all-female college?

01:04:38.398 --> 01:04:48.358
And there's a few challenges, but I think sometimes people,

01:04:48.778 --> 01:04:54.038
because sometimes people come in thinking that this is an all-women's institution,

01:04:54.038 --> 01:04:57.558
that there's no really way of harm.

01:04:57.558 --> 01:05:02.818
There's no opportunity for that to occur, but that's not the case, right?

01:05:02.818 --> 01:05:08.818
And no matter how many layers of protection that we might do externally,

01:05:09.198 --> 01:05:14.438
I don't know if we always do enough work internally, preparing our students

01:05:14.438 --> 01:05:21.838
to engage in the world in which there is sex, in which there are relationships, relationships.

01:05:23.362 --> 01:05:26.782
In which there is harm that can take place in both of these things.

01:05:27.662 --> 01:05:33.002
Sometimes we're having conversations with students about consent for the very

01:05:33.002 --> 01:05:35.142
first time after something has been reported.

01:05:35.382 --> 01:05:39.002
And that's the first time that they're getting to understand what consent is

01:05:39.002 --> 01:05:42.382
and that it can be revoked at any given time.

01:05:43.822 --> 01:05:50.782
Sometimes it's victim blaming. And I think people coming to different understandings

01:05:50.782 --> 01:05:53.442
about how certain things happen.

01:05:53.902 --> 01:05:57.022
And I think that sometimes that comes from a place of fear.

01:05:57.442 --> 01:06:01.402
You know, the questions, you know, why did you wear this? Or you shouldn't have

01:06:01.402 --> 01:06:05.682
gone over there. Or you shouldn't have been doing this at this party.

01:06:05.742 --> 01:06:07.082
Why were you doing such a thing?

01:06:07.162 --> 01:06:11.262
And this happened because you were doing those things. And I say that it comes

01:06:11.262 --> 01:06:14.942
from fear because we're trying to tell ourselves that this can't happen to us.

01:06:15.202 --> 01:06:19.622
And what the reality is, if somebody makes a decision to cause harm,

01:06:19.782 --> 01:06:23.862
that's their decision. And there's not really much that we can do based on that

01:06:23.862 --> 01:06:28.142
decision. And that can be frustrating sometimes.

01:06:28.402 --> 01:06:35.302
Sometimes we're all coming to the table with different understanding of consent and relationships.

01:06:35.742 --> 01:06:40.182
And sometimes it's just a matter of having some uncomfortable conversations.

01:06:40.182 --> 01:06:46.982
But I do think that those that we work with do want to understand and do want

01:06:46.982 --> 01:06:51.922
to create a safe space for the learning and working environment.

01:06:52.842 --> 01:06:59.582
But just giving it some time, this stuff has been around for a really long time.

01:06:59.582 --> 01:07:02.742
And I do think, though,

01:07:02.942 --> 01:07:07.262
even as we're seeing different things change with this new administration,

01:07:07.262 --> 01:07:14.602
I don't want us to become helpless in thinking that policies and procedures are the end-all be-all.

01:07:15.002 --> 01:07:20.002
Yes, they do have a heavy influence on regulations and policies,

01:07:20.002 --> 01:07:25.082
all those things coming down to the everyday man, everyday person.

01:07:25.082 --> 01:07:32.462
However, I do see that we have opportunity to develop healthier social norms.

01:07:32.602 --> 01:07:36.842
What's going on in our communities that these things are happening?

01:07:37.322 --> 01:07:40.742
What's being normalized that promote violence?

01:07:41.042 --> 01:07:45.442
What are some things that are normalized that say that that's none of our business?

01:07:45.442 --> 01:07:47.922
We're not involved, so we shouldn't say anything.

01:07:49.062 --> 01:07:53.282
And challenging those things is just going to have to take time.

01:07:53.282 --> 01:07:55.442
And we all have to be patient with that.

01:07:55.582 --> 01:08:00.542
But we all do have a part to play in ending gender-based violence.

01:08:00.562 --> 01:08:03.322
And we can do that by challenging our social norms.

01:08:03.562 --> 01:08:06.902
So that's a part of the challenge for sure. Yeah.

01:08:08.082 --> 01:08:13.722
So one of the things I know that has been an issue is.

01:08:14.990 --> 01:08:22.910
Has been dealing with sexual harassment and assault on campus being reported, right?

01:08:24.010 --> 01:08:28.590
I worked in law enforcement, so we had to go through training to deal with it

01:08:28.590 --> 01:08:30.590
in the correctional facilities, right?

01:08:31.150 --> 01:08:36.430
We had to watch a video like every year, you know, and there would be some updates and stuff.

01:08:36.590 --> 01:08:40.370
So it was like, that's what we'd be trying to get to the updates instead of the same old video.

01:08:41.430 --> 01:08:49.550
But seriously, though, it was like, you know, that's always been a challenge,

01:08:50.250 --> 01:08:56.030
to get folks who have been victims to come forward.

01:08:56.550 --> 01:08:59.310
And it was really, really egregious.

01:08:59.850 --> 01:09:03.830
The only other place that was more egregious was the military as far as college

01:09:03.830 --> 01:09:06.850
campuses were concerned as far as people reporting.

01:09:07.350 --> 01:09:16.310
So you being in that position and kind of, I'm sure you network with other counterparts

01:09:16.310 --> 01:09:17.370
throughout the country,

01:09:17.650 --> 01:09:23.230
is that getting better or is it still hard to get people to come forward?

01:09:24.850 --> 01:09:32.630
I think it's about 50-50. I think there's still that challenge of people wanting to come to report.

01:09:33.310 --> 01:09:38.150
And even now with those, the numbers that we do have who are reporting,

01:09:38.430 --> 01:09:42.890
we can almost always assume that that number is higher just because we know

01:09:42.890 --> 01:09:46.490
people aren't comfortable coming forward and to report.

01:09:47.090 --> 01:09:51.170
And I think that comes with a few things.

01:09:51.430 --> 01:09:57.190
One, folks not really knowing what's available to them and then not always being

01:09:57.190 --> 01:10:00.350
at the forefront of people's minds.

01:10:00.950 --> 01:10:05.330
Something that we try to do is like right at the gate, new student orientation,

01:10:05.330 --> 01:10:06.470
we want to be right there.

01:10:06.610 --> 01:10:11.210
We want to be a part of all the programming at possible, even if it's just a few minutes.

01:10:11.630 --> 01:10:15.710
Hey, this is what we do. At least you know our face if something happens.

01:10:16.370 --> 01:10:23.350
I think the other thing is there is a lack of trust in systems and reporting.

01:10:24.070 --> 01:10:28.330
And I think that's on a macro level scale. I think that's society-wide.

01:10:28.810 --> 01:10:31.990
People having concern with reporting to law enforcement,

01:10:32.650 --> 01:10:37.990
even people having concern reporting to Title IX offices at their institutions,

01:10:38.330 --> 01:10:45.950
trusting that what's going to happen or what you can expect to happen does happen.

01:10:46.390 --> 01:10:52.870
Or rather, being able to trust an entity with this really intimate information,

01:10:53.050 --> 01:10:59.190
this really personal experience and not having it be shared across campus.

01:11:00.424 --> 01:11:05.284
Having administrators who know how to hold it, who know how to facilitate conversations

01:11:05.284 --> 01:11:13.464
with other people and maintain that privacy and then not just be like talking fodder, right?

01:11:13.784 --> 01:11:16.124
Especially if you're at a small institution.

01:11:16.544 --> 01:11:20.184
One of the primary concerns is that if I tell somebody it's just going to get

01:11:20.184 --> 01:11:23.664
around and then what's that going to do for my social standing?

01:11:23.844 --> 01:11:28.924
What is it going to do for my support system? And sometimes when people do report,

01:11:29.324 --> 01:11:33.664
even if they're encouraged by friends in the beginning, as time goes on,

01:11:33.824 --> 01:11:35.604
sometimes that support just wanes.

01:11:35.864 --> 01:11:40.744
And then the person is still standing there navigating a process all by themselves.

01:11:40.744 --> 01:11:42.424
And that's really isolating.

01:11:42.884 --> 01:11:47.144
And then even what happens after, right? Just so many things change.

01:11:48.104 --> 01:11:55.744
The other thing I would say is, I do think people are starting to understand

01:11:55.744 --> 01:11:59.924
what various things can be reported or how it impacts them.

01:12:00.504 --> 01:12:07.104
Sometimes folks aren't always able to see that this is what this,

01:12:07.224 --> 01:12:11.324
especially with things like stalking. That's a repeated pattern of behavior.

01:12:11.604 --> 01:12:14.904
You're not going to see that potentially at least until the second time that

01:12:14.904 --> 01:12:17.224
something strange or out-putting happens.

01:12:17.944 --> 01:12:25.504
And not really knowing because society doesn't talk about how these things are not okay.

01:12:25.504 --> 01:12:31.144
Or rather, sometimes society even promotes these things, whether it's in song

01:12:31.144 --> 01:12:34.984
lyrics, whether it's, you know, just in pop culture,

01:12:35.284 --> 01:12:41.404
some of the conversation that we're seeing celebrities or popular people talk about these things.

01:12:41.404 --> 01:12:48.764
So it's important for those of us who do this work to be visible, however that looks.

01:12:48.764 --> 01:12:53.924
And what we find is that the more visible we are, the more trust that people

01:12:53.924 --> 01:12:58.124
have, especially when they have the opportunity to just engage with us one-on-one,

01:12:58.484 --> 01:13:02.104
not after when something happens. Yeah.

01:13:03.224 --> 01:13:07.284
Developing that rapport, developing that relationship lends to that trust.

01:13:07.784 --> 01:13:12.284
And then people feel a little bit more comfortable, even if they don't fully want to rapport.

01:13:12.464 --> 01:13:16.904
They just want to talk with you about what happened and even just sharing with them the resources.

01:13:17.184 --> 01:13:22.424
Not pushing people to do certain things is really ideal.

01:13:22.424 --> 01:13:26.404
You want to empower folks to make choices on their own.

01:13:26.404 --> 01:13:33.224
Even, and I say this with love, even with our, with like our culture,

01:13:33.464 --> 01:13:37.224
especially within HBCUs, like we have students who come to us,

01:13:37.344 --> 01:13:42.024
even if we're not their professor or we're working with them directly on academics,

01:13:42.184 --> 01:13:46.904
but they found comfort with you and now you're their person, which is great.

01:13:46.904 --> 01:13:54.024
We also have to be mindful that these are still young adults and they're navigating the world.

01:13:54.284 --> 01:13:58.804
And what we might think is best for them, they have to make that decision.

01:13:59.044 --> 01:14:02.204
We can't push that on them. We can't sway them anyway.

01:14:02.824 --> 01:14:07.584
And even if we've had our own experiences with some things in the past,

01:14:08.004 --> 01:14:11.764
let's give our young folks a chance to explore what's the best route of healing

01:14:11.764 --> 01:14:17.464
for them and talking with them about that and empowering them to navigate their

01:14:17.464 --> 01:14:21.204
healing in that way with our support, with our guidance. But they've got to

01:14:21.204 --> 01:14:22.424
be the one to make that choice.

01:14:23.084 --> 01:14:28.964
Do you feel that you have an advantage compared to some of your counterparts

01:14:28.964 --> 01:14:30.784
because of your social work background?

01:14:31.708 --> 01:14:36.928
I do. I may have a bias because I think social workers save the world. I just do.

01:14:37.408 --> 01:14:42.748
Even our, and shout out to Paula Dobbs. She's our assistant director in our office.

01:14:42.868 --> 01:14:48.028
She is a licensed clinical social worker and she's super creative. She does.

01:14:48.168 --> 01:14:53.388
She's over our outreach initiatives and she's great at connecting something

01:14:53.388 --> 01:14:57.588
that's going on currently in the culture and tying it into our conversations.

01:14:57.588 --> 01:15:04.288
But having that lens of the whole picture before you decide how to go about

01:15:04.288 --> 01:15:08.168
an intervention can really save folks from some damage.

01:15:08.488 --> 01:15:14.108
And I do think that identifying the problem is one thing, but again,

01:15:14.308 --> 01:15:19.288
what's going on around the problem, that's promoting it, supporting it, and even expanding it.

01:15:19.288 --> 01:15:25.928
And then going, exploring that, but then having the ability to use that to inform

01:15:25.928 --> 01:15:29.668
what you want to do next. Does this look like a panel discussion?

01:15:29.948 --> 01:15:31.868
Does this look like we need to do a training?

01:15:32.188 --> 01:15:36.128
Does this look like we need to have a one-on-one conversation with this individual,

01:15:36.648 --> 01:15:41.648
despite them having personal issues at home because they keep showing up in a problematic way.

01:15:41.808 --> 01:15:49.768
I do think that that social work lens really helps to be specific about what

01:15:49.768 --> 01:15:55.348
needs to be done or expand on what the problem is and then targeting how you

01:15:55.348 --> 01:15:57.828
want to go about fixing that problem. Yeah.

01:15:58.868 --> 01:16:04.568
So what impact would losing the U.S.

01:16:04.988 --> 01:16:12.688
Department of Education have on Title IX compliance? What it sounds like to

01:16:12.688 --> 01:16:19.728
me is if that is cut, then certain things would be determined by the state.

01:16:20.028 --> 01:16:27.188
And depending on what side of the country you're on, that can be informed by different attitudes.

01:16:27.188 --> 01:16:30.108
And it can

01:16:30.108 --> 01:16:33.108
be an interest it's an interesting time we're

01:16:33.108 --> 01:16:36.548
actually exploring and title nine administrators

01:16:36.548 --> 01:16:39.748
all over are exploring how to

01:16:39.748 --> 01:16:45.228
still go about being there for the folks that are discriminated against based

01:16:45.228 --> 01:16:53.168
on gender even if it's not explicitly sex right and And it's really challenging

01:16:53.168 --> 01:16:56.928
us to be creative in how we show up for our communities.

01:16:57.168 --> 01:17:03.388
But I would say even in the face of that and making those hard decisions,

01:17:03.428 --> 01:17:09.708
institutions still have an ability to decide what their values are and if they

01:17:09.708 --> 01:17:11.508
want to stand on those or not.

01:17:11.668 --> 01:17:14.848
And being creative in how you show up in your community.

01:17:15.408 --> 01:17:19.348
It's not going to be, I say it's not going to be the easiest road because it's

01:17:19.348 --> 01:17:24.268
still really early. And we're still like, what fires are we going to have to

01:17:24.268 --> 01:17:25.428
put out? And I'll tell you.

01:17:26.928 --> 01:17:31.708
We've been in an interesting position because Georgia filed an injunction when

01:17:31.708 --> 01:17:38.108
the Biden administration submitted or published the 2024 Title IX regulations.

01:17:38.488 --> 01:17:44.388
And so what that meant was while the injunction was filed, we still have to

01:17:44.388 --> 01:17:49.928
operate under the 2020 Title IX regulations, which were given by this current

01:17:49.928 --> 01:17:52.388
administration previously when they were in office.

01:17:52.388 --> 01:17:56.668
So not terribly much has changed on our end.

01:17:56.948 --> 01:18:01.128
Now we were kind of like, which way are y'all going to go with this when the

01:18:01.128 --> 01:18:02.828
new regulations came out?

01:18:03.468 --> 01:18:09.788
But a lot of institutions, most if not all, who are going to be receiving federal

01:18:09.788 --> 01:18:17.808
funds have to now go back to the 2020 regulations. And that was really controversial at the time.

01:18:18.668 --> 01:18:27.208
Some argue that the 2020 regulations are more respondent-leaning as far as their rights.

01:18:27.628 --> 01:18:34.828
So, for example, there was a while back, there were conversations around if

01:18:34.828 --> 01:18:38.628
students wanted to, or people wanted to engage in the Title IX process,

01:18:38.628 --> 01:18:41.688
they had to be involved with it fully.

01:18:41.688 --> 01:18:44.568
So the investigation, the hearing, all those things.

01:18:45.028 --> 01:18:52.708
The tricky part was when they said that they wanted to do cross-examination via advisors.

01:18:53.008 --> 01:18:59.428
So students or whomever would have an advisor and they would do cross-examination via the advisor.

01:18:59.568 --> 01:19:05.888
So the advisor of the other party is asking questions of the other party's student. And...

01:19:07.141 --> 01:19:13.981
While due rights, right, is the, I don't want to be snarky here.

01:19:14.421 --> 01:19:20.281
Sometimes due rights, men's due rights or due process is presented as,

01:19:20.521 --> 01:19:24.641
you know, we're just trying to be equitable. We want to make sure that everybody's rights are heard.

01:19:25.121 --> 01:19:29.521
Sounds valid at the surface, but sometimes I'd be remiss if I didn't acknowledge

01:19:29.521 --> 01:19:33.501
that sometimes the conversation around due rights, particularly under Title

01:19:33.501 --> 01:19:36.861
IX, is more about respondent rights.

01:19:37.141 --> 01:19:39.401
And men's rights, to be specific.

01:19:40.021 --> 01:19:45.841
And so the proposal initially was, if you didn't engage in cross-examination,

01:19:46.221 --> 01:19:51.181
then whatever you said prior is not included in the determination.

01:19:51.641 --> 01:19:55.601
So you've done the investigation, you've met with the investigator,

01:19:55.601 --> 01:19:58.841
you get to the hearing, and you don't want to do a cross-examination.

01:19:59.141 --> 01:20:02.981
Whatever you said prior was not going to be taken or not going to be included

01:20:02.981 --> 01:20:05.981
into the determination of the outcome.

01:20:06.361 --> 01:20:11.921
And a lot of advocates, and rightfully so, said that's not trauma-informed and it's not really fair.

01:20:12.641 --> 01:20:17.981
So under the Comstock, there was a law that was shared or a judge said that

01:20:17.981 --> 01:20:21.501
actually this is in violation. We can't actually do that.

01:20:22.321 --> 01:20:25.641
And so moving forward, that has not been the lay of the land.

01:20:25.641 --> 01:20:28.701
And me and myself, I'm pretty happy about that.

01:20:29.161 --> 01:20:33.981
What I get nervous about is everybody should have rights. Everybody's rights

01:20:33.981 --> 01:20:36.601
should be protected, especially with these things.

01:20:36.921 --> 01:20:42.201
But we don't want to get so far away from the fact that there's been harm here

01:20:42.201 --> 01:20:48.501
on a very intimate level. And trauma, you have to be trauma-informed in these approaches.

01:20:48.561 --> 01:20:51.861
And we always tell our students, this is not a legal process.

01:20:52.301 --> 01:20:57.441
And it isn't. These things can run parallel to each other, meaning Title IX

01:20:57.441 --> 01:21:01.581
and a criminal proceeding, but they don't overlap. Right.

01:21:02.668 --> 01:21:06.628
But we keep saying that this isn't a criminal process, but the more that we

01:21:06.628 --> 01:21:11.448
make it look like a criminal process, the more that people are going to be reluctant

01:21:11.448 --> 01:21:17.048
to engage with us, period, and reluctant to engage. And then what?

01:21:18.768 --> 01:21:23.168
What are we saying as a community? What's the message that we're sending behind

01:21:23.168 --> 01:21:33.048
this? And it can be really challenging to share, especially with a young student.

01:21:33.348 --> 01:21:36.648
Here's what we can offer. Here's what this can look like.

01:21:36.928 --> 01:21:41.348
And trying to give them all the pictures so that way they can make the best decision.

01:21:42.908 --> 01:21:49.108
And sometimes it takes so long or sometimes the process just seems so daunting

01:21:49.108 --> 01:21:53.988
that they're exhausted before we get to the end of it and then they feel defeated from that.

01:21:55.288 --> 01:22:00.168
And while Title IX, again, is about equity, both complaining and the respondent

01:22:00.168 --> 01:22:02.308
and even witnesses that are involved,

01:22:02.648 --> 01:22:08.308
I do have concern and I'm sure a lot of institutions have concern around the

01:22:08.308 --> 01:22:13.508
trauma-informed peace that's being considered or when and if it's being considered

01:22:13.508 --> 01:22:17.308
when these policies are being created and put into place.

01:22:18.428 --> 01:22:27.308
Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that you're highlighting is input, right?

01:22:27.448 --> 01:22:32.048
So, one of the things that, you know, as a legislator, you know,

01:22:32.148 --> 01:22:34.528
we used to look forward to was hearings.

01:22:35.588 --> 01:22:38.468
And some people would think, you know, that's got to be boring.

01:22:39.188 --> 01:22:45.448
And in Mississippi, we didn't necessarily have to have a committee or be a committee

01:22:45.448 --> 01:22:46.768
chair to conduct a hearing.

01:22:46.948 --> 01:22:52.068
If you were a member of the legislature, you could conduct a hearing on an issue

01:22:52.068 --> 01:22:55.428
you want to introduce legislation on or wherever the case may be.

01:22:56.618 --> 01:23:04.578
And, you know, the power of the hearing is that you have either you or if you

01:23:04.578 --> 01:23:08.118
have other colleagues that want to attend, they can they can ask questions.

01:23:08.498 --> 01:23:14.958
But you're getting people from all sides to talk about the impact of what you want to do. Right.

01:23:15.838 --> 01:23:21.658
And, you know, well, that's that that's going to lead into a commentary and all that stuff.

01:23:21.658 --> 01:23:25.758
I know we ain't got that much time, but I just, you know, just listening to

01:23:25.758 --> 01:23:33.138
you, I already have in my mind that nobody has talked to the administration.

01:23:34.218 --> 01:23:38.898
Nobody really probably talked to the Georgia legislature when they tried to

01:23:38.898 --> 01:23:45.218
order Georgia government when they tried to stop what President Biden tried to do.

01:23:45.358 --> 01:23:48.898
It just was like, we're going to do this thing.

01:23:49.138 --> 01:23:54.178
This is our political belief and blah, blah. instead of like making an informed decision.

01:23:54.418 --> 01:23:57.958
So I just, thank you for that.

01:23:58.678 --> 01:24:03.538
Thank you for that. That really highlights something that has a concern.

01:24:03.678 --> 01:24:07.558
All right, so this is gonna be my last question and it's gonna be about something

01:24:07.558 --> 01:24:14.298
that you do, I guess on your volunteer time and that's dealing with homelessness.

01:24:16.018 --> 01:24:20.738
So homelessness in America rose 18% over the last year.

01:24:21.398 --> 01:24:26.898
It is, according to HUD, they believe homelessness is increased due to a shortage

01:24:26.898 --> 01:24:29.658
of affordable housing and rising cost of living.

01:24:30.858 --> 01:24:35.518
California has the highest percentage of unsheltered homeless people in the United States.

01:24:35.958 --> 01:24:40.398
Black and Native American people are more likely to be homeless than any other

01:24:40.398 --> 01:24:42.418
racial and ethnic group.

01:24:42.678 --> 01:24:48.518
And men and veterans also have higher rates of homelessness than the U.S. average.

01:24:49.278 --> 01:24:54.998
So in your work, because you're on an advisory board, I believe, that deals with that.

01:24:56.378 --> 01:25:02.478
What can be done or what would you like to see done to alleviate the situation here in Atlanta?

01:25:02.618 --> 01:25:06.958
I'm not trying to get you to solve the national problem, but since you're from

01:25:06.958 --> 01:25:12.658
here, you live here, you work here, what would you like to see done in Atlanta?

01:25:12.758 --> 01:25:19.778
Because it's very glaring here. And one stat that I didn't cite on that one is that,

01:25:19.998 --> 01:25:25.778
and it blew me away, and I found this out when, I guess, when Mayor Bottoms,

01:25:25.878 --> 01:25:31.078
when she ran for mayor, because it came up, that the biggest wealth gap in the

01:25:31.078 --> 01:25:34.398
United States amongst Black people is here in Atlanta.

01:25:35.598 --> 01:25:41.898
And so I'm like, OK, so sounds like that whoever the mayor is and the council,

01:25:41.898 --> 01:25:45.398
that needs to be the focus that they need to start narrowing.

01:25:46.218 --> 01:25:49.218
Because if this is supposed to be the black mecca, right, right,

01:25:49.638 --> 01:25:55.518
then it seems like the wealth gap should be a little more equitable here compared to other unions.

01:25:56.430 --> 01:26:02.590
Majority black cities. So, and housing definitely plays a part in that wealth gap.

01:26:02.730 --> 01:26:07.470
So just, you know, what would you like to see happen?

01:26:08.270 --> 01:26:15.450
The first thing that comes to my mind is that we change our attitude about poverty here in the South.

01:26:16.190 --> 01:26:21.970
I think the attitude around poverty, you know, it's something that is earned.

01:26:22.150 --> 01:26:27.870
That is something that people somehow they deserve being unhoused.

01:26:28.090 --> 01:26:34.210
Somehow they deserve to be out in the really, really cold winter, not have any food.

01:26:34.330 --> 01:26:37.030
There was something that they did, some decision that they make,

01:26:37.170 --> 01:26:43.450
somebody that they wronged, and that this is something that they've chosen,

01:26:43.750 --> 01:26:46.550
essentially, unless they should be left to deal with it.

01:26:47.150 --> 01:26:51.910
And I think in some ways that attitude, again

01:26:51.910 --> 01:26:56.390
going back to that fear somehow tries to protect ourselves like that could never

01:26:56.390 --> 01:27:03.390
be us but now more than ever that can be anybody and it's not about if somebody

01:27:03.390 --> 01:27:08.950
deserved poverty or that they did something wrong and that was a misstep poverty

01:27:08.950 --> 01:27:11.550
is a very real circumstance in

01:27:11.730 --> 01:27:17.590
any given in atlanta in new york cali and in any country poverty is very is

01:27:17.590 --> 01:27:20.850
very prevalent And unfortunately,

01:27:20.850 --> 01:27:27.290
I think that fear of trying to protect oneself makes things easy to dismiss.

01:27:27.770 --> 01:27:32.230
It's not my problem because they chose that, right?

01:27:32.710 --> 01:27:38.770
And it's almost like it gets us off the hook from doing something about it.

01:27:38.770 --> 01:27:41.550
And unfortunately, that's just not the case.

01:27:42.030 --> 01:27:48.910
With health care being what it is, as expensive as it is, you get sick one good

01:27:48.910 --> 01:27:52.950
time and that can be the end of everything. You lose your job one good time.

01:27:53.150 --> 01:28:00.370
The job market right now is crazy in that there are jobs being posted with sometimes

01:28:00.370 --> 01:28:02.790
no intention of actually hiring folks.

01:28:02.790 --> 01:28:06.190
And that's hard, especially for,

01:28:07.030 --> 01:28:10.970
well, that takes us to another separate conversation, but that's hard.

01:28:11.490 --> 01:28:14.210
And, you know, even before coming to.

01:28:15.433 --> 01:28:20.033
Before getting into higher ed, I worked in nonprofit and safe houses.

01:28:20.433 --> 01:28:28.213
And I remember when Pine Street closed, the homelessness shelter,

01:28:28.453 --> 01:28:34.253
and the impact that it had immediately in Atlanta, especially for us.

01:28:34.413 --> 01:28:37.353
Because oftentimes women, in

01:28:37.353 --> 01:28:41.973
particular, women and children are unhoused related to domestic violence.

01:28:42.913 --> 01:28:47.213
And I even have a colleague who's also a social worker.

01:28:47.533 --> 01:28:52.953
He actually does or is working now in guaranteed income programs and trying

01:28:52.953 --> 01:28:55.733
to expound on that in Atlanta.

01:28:56.053 --> 01:29:01.433
And that being a relatively new concept in the South, because why are you guaranteed

01:29:01.433 --> 01:29:03.213
income? You need to work for this.

01:29:03.273 --> 01:29:05.593
And if you don't work for this, you deserve whatever happens.

01:29:05.953 --> 01:29:07.613
It's a separate conversation.

01:29:08.733 --> 01:29:13.553
But what it did for us in our economy is that we started seeing more people

01:29:13.553 --> 01:29:18.513
who were just homeless or unhoused trying to utilize safe house services.

01:29:18.973 --> 01:29:25.133
And thus, that means less people who are actively fleeing from a violent situation

01:29:25.133 --> 01:29:28.533
get access or have the ability to come into that safe house.

01:29:29.753 --> 01:29:35.333
And then there's just people who don't really have anywhere to go around in

01:29:35.333 --> 01:29:37.573
the area trying to get some support.

01:29:37.893 --> 01:29:41.373
And so what does that mean for the safety of the area? What does that mean for

01:29:41.373 --> 01:29:47.033
the safety of them as well, especially if they have some type of mental health concern?

01:29:47.333 --> 01:29:51.913
And instead of driving by and just leaving people to their own devices,

01:29:52.213 --> 01:29:55.993
what are some resources that are available for this individual?

01:29:57.402 --> 01:30:04.402
I think it first starts with the attitude that we all need one another and that

01:30:04.402 --> 01:30:08.122
poverty is not something that someone earns. These are things that happen.

01:30:09.102 --> 01:30:13.802
And I think addressing that idea starts with empathy.

01:30:14.722 --> 01:30:18.782
And unfortunately, even what we're seeing politically now, maybe even after,

01:30:18.782 --> 01:30:24.882
you know, the incoming or the new administration is that if it's not happening

01:30:24.882 --> 01:30:28.022
close to home, it's almost as if you don't deal with it.

01:30:28.122 --> 01:30:31.782
If it's not happening to someone you know, someone that you care about,

01:30:32.182 --> 01:30:35.642
you don't really see it as a problem until it knocks on your doorstep.

01:30:35.642 --> 01:30:40.042
But if we all do that, if we all just act like nothing's really our problem,

01:30:40.322 --> 01:30:44.342
then everything becomes our problem because everybody's impacted.

01:30:44.782 --> 01:30:47.282
I would love to see more community thought.

01:30:47.762 --> 01:30:51.142
I would like to see that attitude change. And I mean, you mentioned Mississippi.

01:30:51.142 --> 01:30:55.482
I can only imagine how that looks in Mississippi, in various cities.

01:30:55.482 --> 01:31:04.382
And until we get there, I don't know if we'll have a more comprehensive and

01:31:04.382 --> 01:31:07.382
inclusive approach to addressing homelessness in Atlanta.

01:31:07.622 --> 01:31:11.522
We've still got some work to do internally before we can even start addressing

01:31:11.522 --> 01:31:14.722
externally, in my opinion. Yeah.

01:31:15.362 --> 01:31:19.002
Well, Kristin Couch, I'm going to have to let you go.

01:31:19.322 --> 01:31:22.942
We have definitely maximized our time.

01:31:23.162 --> 01:31:29.042
But I enjoyed having this conversation with you because I think it's important

01:31:29.042 --> 01:31:34.622
for people to understand that sense of community you talk about.

01:31:34.622 --> 01:31:40.522
And a lot of the things that you are doing helps build that community,

01:31:40.522 --> 01:31:43.042
not just on campus, but off campus as well.

01:31:43.542 --> 01:31:46.522
And I greatly appreciate what you do.

01:31:47.502 --> 01:31:50.922
And I greatly appreciate you taking the time to come out.

01:31:51.062 --> 01:31:55.622
If I was in a situation, I might feel comfortable talking to you.

01:31:55.722 --> 01:31:59.582
You seem like a person that will listen and kind of get me in the right direction.

01:31:59.582 --> 01:32:04.002
And I hope that the young ladies at Spelman feel the same way that I do.

01:32:04.802 --> 01:32:09.222
That means a lot. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. So if people want to talk to you,

01:32:09.462 --> 01:32:12.902
if people want to reach out to you, how could they do that?

01:32:13.382 --> 01:32:17.702
I can be found on LinkedIn, Kristin Couch, LMSW.

01:32:18.262 --> 01:32:20.362
I'm easily accessible there.

01:32:21.342 --> 01:32:26.522
Okay. All right. Well, Kristin Couch, again, thank you for coming on the podcast.

01:32:26.522 --> 01:32:29.982
I greatly appreciate you taking the time to have this discussion.

01:32:30.362 --> 01:32:32.482
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

01:32:32.922 --> 01:32:35.122
All right, guys. and we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:32:37.200 --> 01:32:47.600
Music.

01:32:47.446 --> 01:32:57.086
All right, and we are back. So I want to thank Kevin Hymel and Kristin Couch for coming on.

01:32:58.346 --> 01:33:04.426
How cool was that to hear Kevin's story, right?

01:33:04.706 --> 01:33:12.306
How an article that he wrote became a major motion picture that Tyler Perry wrote and directed.

01:33:13.026 --> 01:33:23.606
Awesome, right? And it's a story about us, black folk, that did some incredible things, right?

01:33:24.086 --> 01:33:33.346
And as I stated in the interview, you know, our story is part of the American story, period.

01:33:33.346 --> 01:33:42.866
No matter how folks try to whitewash it and, you know, try to tell alternate

01:33:42.866 --> 01:33:44.706
facts and all those stuff.

01:33:45.306 --> 01:33:50.206
Reality is, is that you can't erase us and our contributions.

01:33:51.186 --> 01:33:57.286
Some way, some way, somehow, right? The story is going to be told.

01:33:59.006 --> 01:34:02.486
And the more that stories are told,

01:34:03.066 --> 01:34:10.326
regardless of who the storyteller is, the more people will realize why America

01:34:10.326 --> 01:34:18.306
is what it is and the potential of what it could be if we just embraced the

01:34:18.306 --> 01:34:21.666
contributions that we all have made. Right.

01:34:22.646 --> 01:34:31.866
And then Ms. Couch, very impressive sister, very impressive sister.

01:34:32.166 --> 01:34:39.206
And I would, you know, if I was a student at Spelman, I would would really,

01:34:39.366 --> 01:34:46.446
really feel comfortable trusting her to make sure that the right thing is done. Right.

01:34:47.766 --> 01:34:53.806
And not just her being a champion and protecting the rights of students there,

01:34:53.986 --> 01:34:57.846
but the work that she's doing out in the community, dealing with homelessness,

01:34:58.246 --> 01:35:00.306
dealing with domestic violence, all that stuff.

01:35:01.931 --> 01:35:07.231
Yeah, she, both of my guests, and you've heard me say this many,

01:35:07.291 --> 01:35:13.171
many times, but this is the reason why I do the podcast, other than therapy for me.

01:35:14.451 --> 01:35:21.571
They're the reason why I do this, because, you know, it just highlights that

01:35:21.571 --> 01:35:27.031
there are good people out here doing the work that needs to be done.

01:35:28.971 --> 01:35:34.391
But it also, her interview brought up something that is really,

01:35:34.491 --> 01:35:40.811
really a lost art as far as where our politics is, right?

01:35:43.071 --> 01:35:49.431
So I know a lot of people, when y'all watch the news and y'all watch these congressional hearings,

01:35:49.431 --> 01:35:58.451
and basically most of y'all are just watching to see who did a clap back on who, right?

01:35:59.151 --> 01:36:02.391
But that's not what hearings are supposed to be about.

01:36:02.811 --> 01:36:07.471
When I was growing up, yes, I'm old enough to say that phrase.

01:36:07.471 --> 01:36:17.131
When I was growing up, hearings were drama in the testimony, right?

01:36:17.411 --> 01:36:19.071
What the people...

01:36:20.035 --> 01:36:23.895
Were actually testifying to Congress about.

01:36:24.555 --> 01:36:28.435
The stars of the show were not the congressional members,

01:36:28.995 --> 01:36:33.675
but the witnesses that were testifying, whether it was about the mafia,

01:36:34.035 --> 01:36:39.435
whether it was about communism, whether it was about keeping a hospital open,

01:36:39.795 --> 01:36:42.895
which I had to do, by the way. It didn't matter.

01:36:43.195 --> 01:36:49.275
It was like the compelling moment was when that witness testified.

01:36:50.035 --> 01:36:57.575
Not the antics of the members of Congress, not the fights that they got into, not the back and forth.

01:36:57.955 --> 01:37:02.975
It was the witness answering questions, giving testimony.

01:37:03.475 --> 01:37:05.415
That was the highlight.

01:37:05.935 --> 01:37:12.115
And the American people learned something from those witnesses, right?

01:37:12.795 --> 01:37:18.555
They made the news story. They shaped a policy one way or the other.

01:37:19.375 --> 01:37:23.735
Now, you did have rigged committees.

01:37:24.035 --> 01:37:28.175
I mean, that's ever since they've been doing congressional hearings,

01:37:28.655 --> 01:37:31.615
you know, there's been rigged ones.

01:37:32.015 --> 01:37:35.415
You know, the whole McCarthy era stuff, right?

01:37:35.655 --> 01:37:40.495
If you don't know what that is, look that up. But, you know,

01:37:40.995 --> 01:37:43.355
but it was still compelling,

01:37:43.915 --> 01:37:50.775
even when you knew that it was rigged, to watch the witnesses do their thing.

01:37:50.955 --> 01:37:56.915
Now, we get that with the nominees for cabinet positions of the Supreme Court,

01:37:56.935 --> 01:38:04.195
but it used to be on real issues that were happening in the nation or real crises

01:38:04.195 --> 01:38:05.595
that were happening in the nation.

01:38:05.595 --> 01:38:11.495
And in the hearings that I participated in as a state legislator,

01:38:11.715 --> 01:38:14.675
they were informative, right?

01:38:14.995 --> 01:38:16.775
It was like...

01:38:17.811 --> 01:38:22.551
You know, now, again, you had the members participate,

01:38:22.831 --> 01:38:29.351
but it was whatever ire or concern was directed toward the person testifying,

01:38:29.351 --> 01:38:32.831
it wasn't toward other members, right?

01:38:33.851 --> 01:38:42.051
I remember me and a gentleman from Coahoma County, John Mayo,

01:38:42.411 --> 01:38:48.311
we had introduced legislation to end the death penalty in the state of Mississippi.

01:38:54.791 --> 01:38:59.931
And we had raised enough sand between the two of us and the groups that were

01:38:59.931 --> 01:39:05.151
behind us that we forced a judiciary in-bank committee.

01:39:06.271 --> 01:39:10.671
So in Mississippi, in the House of Representatives, you have two judiciary committees.

01:39:10.891 --> 01:39:16.111
You have Judiciary A and Judiciary B, and a lot of states do that.

01:39:16.931 --> 01:39:24.851
One committee handles civil penalties, and then one committee handles criminal penalties, right?

01:39:25.071 --> 01:39:27.431
That's kind of the nuance why it's separated.

01:39:28.531 --> 01:39:33.471
But every now and then, there would be legislation where the two committees

01:39:33.471 --> 01:39:37.951
would meet as one big committee, and that was called judiciary and bank.

01:39:39.191 --> 01:39:45.751
And the death penalty was one of those issues that forced that committee to convene.

01:39:48.731 --> 01:39:56.651
And we had people coming and testifying about the death penalty,

01:39:57.071 --> 01:40:00.471
people that were against it and people that were for it.

01:40:00.791 --> 01:40:06.771
The main person that testified in favor of it was the assistant attorney general

01:40:06.771 --> 01:40:11.931
for the state of Mississippi that handled the death penalty cases in court,

01:40:11.931 --> 01:40:16.571
And he would always go up against, you know,

01:40:16.751 --> 01:40:21.151
the lawyers that were supporting, you know, the lawyers.

01:40:21.952 --> 01:40:25.192
People that were convicted of the death penalty trying to commute their sentence

01:40:25.192 --> 01:40:30.932
or get the conviction overturned or delay the execution or whatever.

01:40:32.152 --> 01:40:38.332
So he, he was a little jaded to say the least. He was, he had his,

01:40:38.532 --> 01:40:41.392
he, he always had his armor on. Let's put it that way.

01:40:42.052 --> 01:40:48.952
I can't remember the guy's name now, which is kind of interesting because we

01:40:48.952 --> 01:40:51.072
had, he and I had a confrontation.

01:40:52.152 --> 01:40:58.332
And he was offended. It was pretty obvious he was offended that this legislation

01:40:58.332 --> 01:41:06.132
was stirring up this kind of interest because he was in favor of the death penalty.

01:41:06.332 --> 01:41:09.672
He enjoyed making sure that those executions went through.

01:41:10.592 --> 01:41:14.772
So you could tell he was a little miffed that he had to actually testify about

01:41:14.772 --> 01:41:17.492
the validity of maintaining the death penalty in Mississippi.

01:41:18.912 --> 01:41:23.632
And he, in his remarks, I keep wanting to say his name was white.

01:41:25.092 --> 01:41:28.772
No, don't don't judge me. I think that was really his name, but I might be wrong.

01:41:28.952 --> 01:41:34.252
I don't know. But anyway, he, in his remarks,

01:41:34.532 --> 01:41:41.112
said something to a fact that introducing this kind of legislation was stupid

01:41:41.112 --> 01:41:49.392
and questioned the intelligence of those members who introduced the legislation.

01:41:49.772 --> 01:41:52.832
Well, as I stated before, I was one of those people.

01:41:54.852 --> 01:42:07.092
And when the chair recognized me for my time to question the assistant attorney general,

01:42:07.492 --> 01:42:14.552
I basically told him that people who believe in barbarism,

01:42:15.768 --> 01:42:21.968
have a level of intelligence that doesn't compare to average human beings.

01:42:22.448 --> 01:42:28.848
And for somebody who supports the death penalty, I would put them in the category of being barbaric.

01:42:29.428 --> 01:42:35.888
And I take offense that somebody who obviously is not as intellectual as I am

01:42:35.888 --> 01:42:41.448
would insult my intelligence or my character or the validity of my job.

01:42:42.668 --> 01:42:47.988
Needless to say, he got a little red in the face, but he understood that he

01:42:47.988 --> 01:42:55.568
had overstepped when he put that kind of characterization on legislation.

01:42:55.568 --> 01:42:59.848
Now, you know, in private conversation, you know, in your office,

01:43:00.048 --> 01:43:03.368
you call me stupid, call me the N-word, whatever you want to do.

01:43:03.768 --> 01:43:07.008
But to say it at a public hearing and I'm sitting right there,

01:43:07.308 --> 01:43:10.908
yeah. And I had a chance to respond to that.

01:43:11.388 --> 01:43:13.868
Yeah, I took advantage of that.

01:43:14.528 --> 01:43:20.428
And so the drama was not me criticizing a Republican on the committee that was

01:43:20.428 --> 01:43:22.348
for it or attacking a member.

01:43:22.508 --> 01:43:26.548
The drama was me and the witness. Right.

01:43:27.008 --> 01:43:30.688
Especially me being the author of the bill while we're all here.

01:43:31.448 --> 01:43:35.188
And and really, that's the way it's supposed to go.

01:43:35.188 --> 01:43:43.008
Now, it's not necessarily great that people get into that kind of exchange,

01:43:43.008 --> 01:43:50.108
but the focus was between the witness and the legislator, right?

01:43:50.288 --> 01:43:56.508
Not the legislators calling each other creative names or threatening to fight each other, right?

01:43:57.408 --> 01:44:01.588
And even though that legislation didn't pass,

01:44:01.828 --> 01:44:06.328
the power of being a legislator, the power of being in a position is that you

01:44:06.328 --> 01:44:09.968
can bring issues up to have those kind of hearings,

01:44:09.968 --> 01:44:17.808
to have that kind of discussion, to really address, do we want to continue going

01:44:17.808 --> 01:44:23.648
down this road or do we need to address that particular problem? Right.

01:44:25.108 --> 01:44:25.728
So.

01:44:27.388 --> 01:44:30.748
That is one of the things that is really, really lacking.

01:44:31.588 --> 01:44:38.928
Now, you know, you want to introduce legislation, you want to you want to do things right.

01:44:39.188 --> 01:44:41.388
You just want to let's abolish this department.

01:44:41.928 --> 01:44:49.548
Let's fire all these people. Let's cut this money right out of the budget.

01:44:49.548 --> 01:44:51.068
Let's cut these programs.

01:44:51.468 --> 01:44:54.788
But they're not having hearings about it, right?

01:44:55.308 --> 01:45:00.368
And if they are having hearings, it's not, it's, it's,

01:45:01.734 --> 01:45:07.914
not informative, or maybe it's not, you know, now if you watch C-SPAN,

01:45:08.194 --> 01:45:12.574
you might get it, but as far as the national news media, mainstream media,

01:45:12.714 --> 01:45:13.894
whatever, you're not getting,

01:45:15.574 --> 01:45:20.074
the essence of what the congressional hearings are supposed to be about, right?

01:45:20.354 --> 01:45:27.594
And then for some reason now, we coach people who testify not to say anything, right?

01:45:27.774 --> 01:45:34.014
They make a statement, They read a statement and then they kind of dance around any direct questions.

01:45:35.134 --> 01:45:38.214
That defeats the purpose. Why are you there? Right.

01:45:38.754 --> 01:45:43.914
You don't want to go viral, I guess. I don't want your social media to blow up. I don't know.

01:45:45.594 --> 01:45:50.274
You don't want to look bad on television. I don't know. All I know is that this

01:45:50.274 --> 01:45:56.134
is the whole purpose is to gather information so you can make an informed decision

01:45:56.134 --> 01:45:58.514
about legislation that's being proposed.

01:45:59.614 --> 01:46:05.874
But if you want to orchestrate the hearing where nothing substantive happens

01:46:05.874 --> 01:46:12.454
or you want to just bypass the whole congressional process, period,

01:46:13.114 --> 01:46:16.594
that's not how you're supposed to govern. Right.

01:46:17.534 --> 01:46:21.274
I guarantee you. And then the

01:46:21.274 --> 01:46:28.234
other asset, well, I guarantee you that if you try to govern like that,

01:46:28.714 --> 01:46:33.154
it's going to be complete chaos. It's going to be a shit show.

01:46:33.694 --> 01:46:36.034
There's no other way around it, right?

01:46:36.614 --> 01:46:39.454
The other thing is public hearings, right?

01:46:40.994 --> 01:46:45.534
And I know that we used to have, as the Black Caucus,

01:46:45.674 --> 01:46:52.114
we used to go around the state and have these public hearings about issues and

01:46:52.114 --> 01:46:58.834
try to gather responses from the community as far as what really needs to be addressed.

01:46:59.874 --> 01:47:04.494
What are concerns in the Black community in the state of Mississippi about what's

01:47:04.494 --> 01:47:07.574
going on and inform people even?

01:47:07.574 --> 01:47:11.654
Because sometimes we say it was a hearing, but really it was a town hall because

01:47:11.654 --> 01:47:13.154
we were letting people know some

01:47:13.154 --> 01:47:19.854
information so we could get their support when we convened in January.

01:47:20.414 --> 01:47:24.594
It's like, this is coming down the pike. We need y'all's help.

01:47:25.833 --> 01:47:30.793
Some pressure on our colleagues to not pass that, right?

01:47:31.433 --> 01:47:40.293
So, you know, so what's happening now is that members of Congress went back to their districts,

01:47:40.573 --> 01:47:45.873
they held town hall meetings, and now they're finding out, doesn't matter if

01:47:45.873 --> 01:47:47.013
you're Democrat or Republican,

01:47:47.413 --> 01:47:51.433
you're finding out that people are not happy with what's going on.

01:47:51.873 --> 01:47:59.433
If you're a Democrat, biggest charge is y'all not doing enough to fight this, right?

01:47:59.653 --> 01:48:04.553
Or asking the question, what exactly are you doing to fight this, right?

01:48:04.813 --> 01:48:09.693
And then the Republicans, they're running into their constituents saying,

01:48:10.033 --> 01:48:11.433
yeah, we didn't vote for that.

01:48:11.753 --> 01:48:17.353
When we voted for Donald Trump to be president, we didn't vote for our Medicaid to get cut off.

01:48:17.353 --> 01:48:25.333
We didn't vote for a president that wasn't going to listen to the court or adhere

01:48:25.333 --> 01:48:26.833
to the instruction of the court.

01:48:27.193 --> 01:48:32.833
We didn't elect anybody to bypass you and your colleagues in Congress.

01:48:33.553 --> 01:48:37.933
Right. All these executive. We we we want you.

01:48:38.153 --> 01:48:41.953
We elected you just like we elected him to do your job.

01:48:43.613 --> 01:48:49.673
And most of those folks are not constitutional scholars or, you know,

01:48:50.873 --> 01:48:55.553
professors in political science, but they have enough of a basic understanding

01:48:55.553 --> 01:48:59.813
to know that the president represents the executive branch,

01:49:00.353 --> 01:49:06.353
Congress represents the legislative branch, and the Supreme Court represents the judicial branch.

01:49:06.993 --> 01:49:12.153
And they're all supposed to check each other, keep each other straightened.

01:49:13.473 --> 01:49:19.553
And so people are upset because the legislative branch is not checking the executive branch.

01:49:20.273 --> 01:49:25.113
It's one thing to support your fellow party member.

01:49:25.733 --> 01:49:31.893
But like I said in a previous podcast, sometimes your job is to tell your friend no.

01:49:32.453 --> 01:49:35.413
Right. And so people are hot about that.

01:49:36.653 --> 01:49:40.853
So, you know, if you really want to go about making changes,

01:49:41.433 --> 01:49:45.173
maybe you should have some public hearings, right?

01:49:46.213 --> 01:49:49.593
Which I think a lot of people were under pretense when you were talking about

01:49:49.593 --> 01:49:53.573
this Department of Government Efficiency or, you know, whatever.

01:49:54.013 --> 01:49:58.613
They thought that Elon Musk was going to have a traveling show.

01:49:58.613 --> 01:50:03.893
I know some people did, thought he was going to go to all 50 states and have

01:50:03.893 --> 01:50:09.953
these hearings about, all right, so which agency are you having a problem with?

01:50:10.193 --> 01:50:15.653
What agency do you think we don't need to have getting public input, right?

01:50:16.293 --> 01:50:20.613
And then actually going to those agencies on a fact-finding mission.

01:50:21.033 --> 01:50:23.313
So what exactly do you do over here?

01:50:24.573 --> 01:50:27.573
And then, as he stated,

01:50:28.453 --> 01:50:34.753
give a report on July 4th, 2026, based off the information he gathered from

01:50:34.753 --> 01:50:41.113
the public and actually seeing the operation of each one of these agencies,

01:50:41.473 --> 01:50:44.813
and then make a determination where you could make the cuts.

01:50:45.053 --> 01:50:48.613
Can you merge some of these agencies?

01:50:49.033 --> 01:50:52.673
Do we need particular agencies or not?

01:50:53.613 --> 01:50:57.753
Right? Because everybody's got ideas. I mean, I've had ideas.

01:51:00.411 --> 01:51:05.991
A member of Congress. Now, maybe I can convince a member of Congress to propose one of them,

01:51:07.551 --> 01:51:11.511
but, you know, the people in Congress are supposed to be the ones,

01:51:11.651 --> 01:51:16.371
because most of those agencies were created by congressional approval anyway,

01:51:16.371 --> 01:51:19.231
and they're funded by Congress.

01:51:19.431 --> 01:51:22.251
They're not funded by the president.

01:51:23.451 --> 01:51:29.791
So, the president can say, I don't want this department to exist,

01:51:30.131 --> 01:51:37.291
but what has to actually happen is that Congress has to create legislation to

01:51:37.291 --> 01:51:40.551
end that agency and put it up to a vote.

01:51:41.331 --> 01:51:45.971
That's how it's supposed to happen, right? But for some reason,

01:51:45.991 --> 01:51:57.471
we think what's happening is okay and that it's entertaining and in essence acceptable. It is not.

01:51:58.671 --> 01:52:02.031
Everybody's like, well, I don't want a dictator.

01:52:03.131 --> 01:52:09.571
Then act like it. When they have these congressional town hall meetings, attend.

01:52:10.011 --> 01:52:13.511
If you can't attend, you have a smartphone.

01:52:13.971 --> 01:52:18.531
You have several options with the smartphone. You can email.

01:52:19.431 --> 01:52:24.951
You can post on that congressperson's social media, or you can call them.

01:52:25.971 --> 01:52:32.051
But you have a tool at your hand. There are even apps to make it easier for you.

01:52:32.251 --> 01:52:35.211
You can, I think there was, there used to be an app. I don't know if it's still

01:52:35.211 --> 01:52:39.591
there, but there used to be an app where you could write a letter to your congressional

01:52:39.591 --> 01:52:40.651
person electronically.

01:52:41.451 --> 01:52:45.731
Right? Because that's the best way to reach them anyway, because the mail has

01:52:45.731 --> 01:52:52.411
to go through all these security procedures because of the anthrax scare in 2001.

01:52:53.611 --> 01:52:58.851
So they changed the way, you know, to mail stuff. You can mail a letter,

01:52:59.051 --> 01:53:04.311
but Congress person probably is not going to even see it for like about two or three weeks.

01:53:06.191 --> 01:53:09.811
Right. But they can get that phone call right then.

01:53:10.111 --> 01:53:16.011
They can get that email right then. They can get that social media post right then.

01:53:16.671 --> 01:53:22.091
You can do that. If you ain't got no friends on your social media,

01:53:22.311 --> 01:53:23.871
which I don't know how you do that.

01:53:24.391 --> 01:53:27.591
If you ain't got no friends on your social media, at least have your senator

01:53:27.591 --> 01:53:29.211
and your congressional person on there.

01:53:29.631 --> 01:53:33.751
Your state legislator, your mayor, your council member.

01:53:35.295 --> 01:53:40.055
County commissioner or supervisor, have them on there. So that way you can DM

01:53:40.055 --> 01:53:45.275
them, follow what they're doing, pay attention to what they're doing, right?

01:53:46.015 --> 01:53:50.615
So you have a sense of what's going on because they post stuff on there.

01:53:50.895 --> 01:53:54.335
Even Elon Musk is posting information. It may not be accurate,

01:53:54.675 --> 01:53:57.295
but he's posting something, right?

01:53:58.175 --> 01:54:07.475
And you can respond to that. But the way that things are going now is not conducive

01:54:07.475 --> 01:54:12.335
to a healthy society. It's not.

01:54:13.015 --> 01:54:16.035
Again, it may be entertaining for you.

01:54:17.095 --> 01:54:22.295
It may be, I don't know, gives you something to talk about.

01:54:22.675 --> 01:54:27.815
But it's not how we're supposed to function, right?

01:54:27.815 --> 01:54:35.335
Even more so if you are black or Asian or Latino,

01:54:35.335 --> 01:54:45.595
it makes it even harder if we allow one man in his merry band to wreak havoc

01:54:45.595 --> 01:54:50.875
and not have any say-so in how that goes. Right?

01:54:52.480 --> 01:54:58.400
I mean, you're just being real. In order for us to function,

01:54:58.860 --> 01:55:03.240
that means you got to stay within the rails.

01:55:03.460 --> 01:55:10.700
You can think outside the box and still be in the arena, right? That's the problem.

01:55:11.300 --> 01:55:14.400
It's like, well, we just got to get rid of the arena. No, no.

01:55:14.820 --> 01:55:18.000
No, you can't get rid of the arena.

01:55:18.540 --> 01:55:22.080
You can't disregard the Constitution.

01:55:22.780 --> 01:55:24.720
You can amend the Constitution.

01:55:25.820 --> 01:55:33.560
You can create laws to support the tenets of the Constitution, but you can't bypass it.

01:55:33.620 --> 01:55:37.460
It's not a busy interstate highway. You can't bypass it.

01:55:37.720 --> 01:55:43.900
You have to deal within that framework in order for it to work. Right?

01:55:44.900 --> 01:55:50.160
Because right now, all that is happening is that he's creating chaos,

01:55:50.160 --> 01:56:01.740
and the chaos is going to lead to unrest, and then the unrest is going to lead to drastic actions.

01:56:02.500 --> 01:56:07.360
I don't think anybody wants to be under martial law. And the only people that

01:56:07.360 --> 01:56:12.580
can keep that are the people that we entrusted to govern.

01:56:14.100 --> 01:56:18.460
And if your trust is being betrayed,

01:56:19.000 --> 01:56:26.340
then you have to pick somebody else that understands that when you take an oath,

01:56:26.580 --> 01:56:29.820
you're not taking an oath to a man or a woman.

01:56:30.180 --> 01:56:33.300
You're taking an oath to the Constitution of the United States.

01:56:33.740 --> 01:56:40.480
A document that has been around since 1789 that has been successfully amended,

01:56:40.480 --> 01:56:43.780
I believe, 26 times. right?

01:56:44.520 --> 01:56:48.600
You have to stay in the arena.

01:56:49.520 --> 01:56:52.820
Can't do stuff outside of the arena and tell everybody in the arena,

01:56:52.820 --> 01:56:57.760
this is how the game is going. No, everything has to be within the arena.

01:56:57.960 --> 01:57:04.180
Again, you can be innovative within the arena, but you can't play the game outside

01:57:04.180 --> 01:57:06.440
of the arena. You just can't do it.

01:57:06.920 --> 01:57:15.380
And not have people upset and uneasy and scared and concerned.

01:57:17.120 --> 01:57:20.460
People go to a game, they're focused on what's going on in the field,

01:57:20.580 --> 01:57:21.600
what's going on in the court.

01:57:22.440 --> 01:57:24.960
They're not caring about what's going on in the parking lot,

01:57:25.360 --> 01:57:27.840
not concerned about what's going on across the street.

01:57:27.960 --> 01:57:30.580
They're concerned about what's going on in the arena.

01:57:31.860 --> 01:57:36.380
And that's the way we have to look at government. If you want to be in those

01:57:36.380 --> 01:57:42.200
positions, then you have to stay in the arena. You have to stay within the guidelines.

01:57:43.400 --> 01:57:50.000
Black folks managed to get progress in this country staying within the guidelines.

01:57:51.080 --> 01:57:54.400
Now, some folks will say, well, you know, y'all were protesting out in the street.

01:57:54.560 --> 01:57:59.320
That's still in the guidelines because we have a First Amendment right to do that.

01:57:59.520 --> 01:58:02.100
We can assemble. We can speak.

01:58:02.960 --> 01:58:04.740
That's a constitutional right.

01:58:05.680 --> 01:58:06.980
That's within the guidelines.

01:58:07.940 --> 01:58:13.180
We start an insurrection. That's outside the guidelines. Y'all follow what I'm saying?

01:58:13.880 --> 01:58:18.000
You exceed your authority, right?

01:58:18.740 --> 01:58:26.420
President Biden just found out that the act that he wanted to do to help people

01:58:26.420 --> 01:58:32.560
have their student loans forgiven, the courts have said he exceeded his authority.

01:58:32.560 --> 01:58:37.820
Whether you agree with that decision or not, that's how it works.

01:58:39.100 --> 01:58:43.400
That's why you have these checks and balances, right?

01:58:43.900 --> 01:58:52.260
You have a branch of government to check another branch of government so that we stay in balance.

01:58:53.460 --> 01:58:58.560
Words have meaning, right? Each branch is equal.

01:58:59.580 --> 01:59:07.600
Yes, you have the head of the nation is the president in a symbolic sense.

01:59:08.380 --> 01:59:14.520
When it comes to making decisions about war, Congress is supposed to approve that.

01:59:15.120 --> 01:59:21.900
Now, there's been some bypasses as far as terms that we use like police action.

01:59:22.480 --> 01:59:23.940
That's how we got in Vietnam.

01:59:24.860 --> 01:59:30.080
But when we went to Afghanistan, Congress voted for that. When we went to Iran,

01:59:30.300 --> 01:59:32.060
Congress would have, right?

01:59:33.880 --> 01:59:38.060
So y'all need to be concerned. That's all I'm saying.

01:59:38.760 --> 01:59:42.900
Y'all need to be concerned about what's going on.

01:59:43.920 --> 01:59:50.840
And you need to challenge the people who you elected at every level to do no

01:59:50.840 --> 01:59:53.120
harm and do the right thing.

01:59:54.840 --> 01:59:57.540
Thank y'all for listening. Until next time.

01:59:58.160 --> 02:00:45.842
Music.