The 300th Episode Featuring Elizabeth Silleck La Rue, Deevon La Rue, and Eric Drooker

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Welcome. I'm Eric Fleming, host of A Moment with Eric Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

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If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.

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First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash A Moment with Eric Fleming.

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Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak

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truth to power and to expand and improve the show.

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Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you

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listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.

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Third, go to the website, momenteric.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,

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leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

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Tell someone else about the podcast. encourage others to listen to the podcast

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and share the podcast on your social media platforms, because it is time to

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NVG Podcast Network.

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Music.

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Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, and Happy Kwanzaa in a moment with Eric Fleming. Thank you.

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We'll see you next time. Hello, and welcome to another moment with Eric Fleming.

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I am your host, Eric Fleming. This is a very, very special episode because this

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is the 300th episode of A Moment with Eric Fleming.

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I did not imagine that me ranting into my phone after I was Ubering people about

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then President Trump would lead to 300 episodes.

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But here we are. And the main reason is you, the listening audience,

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want to thank you all for supporting this podcast.

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The few and the proud, as they say in the Marine Corps, I want to thank you

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all for for the feedback, the support, the uplift.

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And just being the motivation to keep this thing going for as long as I've been able to do it.

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And I've had a lot of help along the way.

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I've met a whole lot of new friends and people through it.

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And it's given me some access to do some things that I hadn't had in a long

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time, especially in the political world.

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So, yeah, this has been a great ride. And I thank you all immensely for making that happen.

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But this is a regular podcast as well. And so I have two amazing guests,

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really three, because I have a husband and wife team.

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Somebody, the wife has been on the show before, but I get an added treat with the husband coming on.

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And then the, well, at least that's the plan.

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Because they're in another country. So we got to make sure everything's good.

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But as far as I know, that's the plan.

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And then I have an author of a very unique book, a graphic novel,

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which is really, really very compelling.

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Not just the story, but the artwork itself is pretty awesome.

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So I'm really, really honored to have those guests. and I'm really,

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really honored to have you all listen in on this 300th episode.

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And I hope that you all enjoy it and Lord willing, we'll put together a few more.

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I don't know if we'll do another 300 episodes, but we'll see what happens.

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We're just glad that, I'm glad that the podcast has made it to this point.

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So anyway, As always, it's time to start off this podcast with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Music.

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And congratulations on recording your 300th episode

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president-elect donald trump lost a

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bid to overturn his criminal conviction related to

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hush money payments a georgia appeals court

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disqualified fulton county da fanny willis from further prosecuting trump and

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his allies in their election interference case president joe biden pardoned

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39 individuals for non-violent crimes and commuted sentences for nearly 1,500 others. The U.S.

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House Ethics Committee plans to release its report on former Representative

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Matt Gaetz soon, despite his resignation from Congress.

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A 15-year-old girl fatally shot a student and a teacher, wounded six others,

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and then killed herself in a Wisconsin school shooting.

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South Korean President Yoon Suk-yeol vowed to fight for his position after being

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impeached by a second vote of Parliament.

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A federal appeals court denied TikTok's request for more time to block a law

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mandating ByteDance's divestment by January 19th.

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Former FBI informant Alexander Smirnov pled guilty to falsifying records about

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President Biden and admitted to tax evasion.

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President-elect Trump filed a lawsuit against the Des Moines Register and its

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former pollster for alleged election interference.

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ABC News agreed to pay $15 million to Trump's presidential library to settle

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a lawsuit over comments made by anchor George Stephanopoulos.

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Officials from the White House, FBI, and DHS clarified that most recent drone

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sightings in New Jersey and nearby states were manned aircraft,

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posing no national security threat.

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Former U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is recovering from a successful hip replacement

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surgery after she was hospitalized in Luxembourg following an injury.

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And the late Shirley Chisholm, the first African-American woman to serve in

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Congress, was awarded the Congressional Gold Medal.

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I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.

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Music.

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Thank you, Grace, for that Moment of News, and thank you for the congratulations.

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This time that we've been working together has been special,

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and I appreciate how you've contributed and made this podcast better.

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All right, so now it's time for my first guest, and it's actually a bonus.

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So Elizabeth Silic LaRue has been on the program before, but this time she has

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asked her husband, Devon LaRue, to come on.

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And so this is, from what I understand, this is going to be a treat.

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Hopefully Devon will be on. He said he was going to be there. So Elizabeth.

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I'm going to do the introduction as if he's going to be there, too.

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Elizabeth Sillick LaRue Esquire, a consultant working toward environmental conservation

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policy, and her husband, Devon LaRue, a visual storyteller who focuses on inclusive

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outdoor recreation and social justice,

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emigrated from the U.S.

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In 2020, making their home in Mexico. In addition to helping organizations and

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mission-based companies make progress toward equity-centered environmental conservation,

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the firm counsels U.S.

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Citizens on how to prepare and plan for immigration in a way that considers

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and minimizes negative impacts on their planned destinations.

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They focus in particular on helping people in the U.S.

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Who feel targeted during their due to their identities, immigrate to places

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where they can experience more peace, safety and agency.

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For more information about Conscientious Immigration Consulting Services,

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please go to www.celecconsultingservices.com backslash immigration support.

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And we will get into details about what exactly is Conscientious Immigration

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and all that during the interview.

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So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as guests

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on this podcast, Elizabeth and Yvonne LaRue.

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Music.

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All right. Elizabeth Selick LaRue. How are you doing, my friend? You doing good?

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I'm doing well. How about you? I'm doing lovely. Feliz Navidad to you.

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Thank you. Back at you. And we...

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Yeah, I'm glad you're on because we need to talk about some options for some people,

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as we're getting close to the inauguration day. But I understand that you've

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got somebody, a friend with you that is going to help you with this interview today.

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Yeah, you could actually, yes, he is my best friend as well as my spouse and business partner.

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So yeah, my husband, Devon West LaRue, we call him Wes,

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is here joining me because we did this emigration journey together and our family

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and our marriage and our the composition of our family was a big driving force and why we left the U.S.

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So I figured it would be good for him to tune in and pitch in rather and talk

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about his experience with emigration.

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So go ahead. Thank you for having me. You want me to start now?

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Well, just say hi. Hello. Hello to everyone.

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All right, Wes. Well, it's an honor to meet you, brother.

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And I know that she's kind of the analytical one and you're kind of the creative one and stuff.

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So I know that's a powerful combination when y'all can work together and be

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in sync. And Mexico is blessed to have y'all wish I could have stayed here in the United States.

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But, you know, but we we we're going to talk about giving some people some options.

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So how so like I always do, we're going to break the ice with a quote.

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So this is the quote. Your birthplace doesn't have to be your prison.

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Your passport is your power and the future is yours to define.

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What is that quote? move y'all.

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Well, what resonates the most to me is your birthplace doesn't have to be your prison.

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And I think that actually, that can even go for domestic relocation, right?

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Because I think that's something that at least for me growing up in New York

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in a working class slash poor environment.

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There was, you know, over attachment, I think, to neighborhoods and communities

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and particularly New Yorkers.

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You know, we tend to be a little bit egocentric and think that New York is the

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best place in the world and it's not worth going anyplace else.

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And, you know, for a lot of people, it is a prison.

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And, you know, in the international context of what we're talking about right

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now, where the United States is moving more toward.

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Frankly, fascism, having been born there can absolutely feel like a prison.

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And specifically, if you have identities that are being targeted by this incoming administration.

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So, yeah, that resonates a lot. Do you want to talk about the passport aspect of it?

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And, you know, she's like, she's actually, actually correct.

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The passport aspect of it for me was a huge door, you know, that opened for me.

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And, you know, up until 2021, I have never had a passport.

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Before that, I'd never been out of the country. You know, I'd never been on an airplane.

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I've never experienced life outside of the United States, Florida to be specific.

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So it was definitely an eye-opener and it really opens your mind to the world

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around you and you don't feel so stuck anymore.

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You're like, okay, so there is something outside of this state.

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There's something outside of this country. There are people,

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you know, outside of where you are that are living life,

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living it in a lot of ways better, you know, and that's that was my interpretation of that. Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. It's a very it was pretty powerful when I pulled it up and I said,

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yeah, I'm going to throw this one at them. I think they they'll appreciate that.

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So what is conscientious emigration?

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Yeah, thank you for asking that question. So I think I'll start with what it isn't.

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So, you know, your listeners probably have a sense for the fact that throughout the world,

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United States citizens when traveling have developed a pretty poor reputation

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in the way that we approach being in other people's spaces.

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And I can say for the most part, this is a United States thing.

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It's not necessarily a gender thing or a race thing or a class thing.

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I think overall, all, you know, I think people from the United States have tended

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to move in ways that are just sort of oblivious to the way that they impact

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others or just out and out disrespectful and hostile or, you know, entitled.

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And so part of that relates to that.

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And then another part of that relates to the more systemic and harmful ways

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that not just people from the United States, but I think people from wealthier

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countries, like the global north, so to speak.

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Tend to move into places where the cost of living is lower,

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oftentimes former colonies like Mexico, where we live, and sort of replicate

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those patterns of colonialism, you know, whereby they might,

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let's say, for example, tear down some forests to build a huge home that they

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don't even stay in all year,

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you know, where they force their own cultural expectations and needs on communities

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and, you know, kind of change the character of the communities and drive the prices up.

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So, you know, I like to refer to it as international gentrification.

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So I think when I decided that I wanted to counsel people and give them advice

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and give them support and help them emigrate from the United States,

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I only really wanted to work with people who cared about their impact and the

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way that they were moving in the countries that they wanted to move to, because part of the

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Part of the reason I think that there is actually some level of backlash and

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distaste for people from the United States moving into other countries is,

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or even visiting tourism,

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right, is that people are not moving conscientiously and they're not,

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you know, not being good guests, not being good residents, not being good citizens.

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And so I really wanted to make sure that when the people that I work with moved

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to the new homes that they were targeting,

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that they were doing so with their impacts in mind,

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trying to minimize their impacts or minimize negative impacts and contribute

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and provide some sort of benefits.

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And I don't mean, you know, building a factory and quote unquote creating jobs.

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So, yeah, conscientious immigration is basically what it sounds like,

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emigrating in a conscientious manner.

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Wes, did you want to add something to that or is that good? No, that's perfect.

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So, in other words, you're basically telling folks when y'all go through your

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process, it's like, look, don't act like tourists.

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Get to know the community that you plan on living in, blend in instead of standing out, right?

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Yeah, I mean, assimilation is part of it, but also I think, frankly,

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there's some places that I just will not advise people to move to because they

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are already facing so much unwelcome change.

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Like, for example, Mexico City, right? We're in Mexico in the Yucatan Peninsula

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area in Cozumel, which is an island.

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But like Mexico City has seen a huge influx of digital nomads,

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you know, quote unquote expats, retirees.

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And they have faced a really serious issue with skyrocketing housing costs.

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They already have, you know, like really bad congestion in the roads.

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And then there's been some problems in terms of like changing the character

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of neighborhoods, you know, all of the stores starting to cater to the expats

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and the retirees over the local people.

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And this is happening globally, right? Right.

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But in the context of Mexico, like as a former colony of Spain,

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it's particularly sensitive.

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And so, you know, when I talk to people and they're like, oh,

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Mexico City, I'm like, you know,

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part of part of this this counseling is actually let's reconsider that.

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Right. Let's like, is there some reason why it has to be there?

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Because if there's not a reason why it has to be there, then maybe don't add

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to the problem. So it's not just a matter of like when you go someplace, behave yourself.

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It's also think about the someplace that you're going and whether you really

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need to be there and whether your presence there is really appropriate at this time.

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Yeah, because I, you know, it's interesting you said Mexico City,

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because I would have thought Monterey would probably be the city that would

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catch it the most since it's the closest.

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And and you know it's closest like huge city to the united states and really,

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well city that where we are is i guess is getting very big

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now but when i went monterey was

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kind of the the closest big city to the united states and i would figure that

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they would because they were already kind of experiencing a little bit of that

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with all the strip clubs that were showing up there that was that was kind of

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a thing that was like their fastest growing industry when i visited And that's

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been, God, that's been 20 years ago.

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So, yeah. So anyway, but that's interesting that you highlight Mexico City.

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So let's get into what is the difference between an expatriate and an expat?

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You mean an immigrant and an expat?

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Yeah. So, yeah, the way I was doing my research, they said there's a difference

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between an expat as opposed to an expatriate.

00:20:54.708 --> 00:21:00.248
Because because, well, well, I think expat is short for expatriate,

00:21:00.368 --> 00:21:04.788
but well, yeah, well, that's what I was thinking, too.

00:21:04.968 --> 00:21:10.648
But let me so so let's talk about that, because when I was doing the research,

00:21:10.668 --> 00:21:15.428
it said that an expatriate, if you use the whole term, that means you fully

00:21:15.428 --> 00:21:19.868
committed that you're in and you're not going back to the United States.

00:21:19.868 --> 00:21:24.928
You've been you've gone all through the steps to be a citizen somewhere else,

00:21:25.048 --> 00:21:29.548
whereas an expat is like these people you're talking about in Mexico City that

00:21:29.548 --> 00:21:36.868
is like they're they're digital nomads or they're accompanied and sent them down there. And so.

00:21:38.768 --> 00:21:42.408
Yeah. Yeah. I think that the term.

00:21:42.668 --> 00:21:49.508
So I think both terms have become sort of fluid and not necessarily clearly defined.

00:21:49.508 --> 00:21:55.148
And from what I understand, expatriates, to your point about like permanent,

00:21:55.348 --> 00:22:00.868
it's sort of, you know, I'm relinquishing my relationship with my original,

00:22:00.868 --> 00:22:04.328
my country of origin. And.

00:22:05.677 --> 00:22:12.297
And then there has been sort of an evolution where it only referred to people

00:22:12.297 --> 00:22:18.257
whose jobs actually sent them to go work with the understanding that they would return.

00:22:18.657 --> 00:22:25.077
And then people who, you know, are now just, I guess you could say global citizens,

00:22:25.357 --> 00:22:29.997
right, who bounce around from country to country are utilizing the term to refer to themselves.

00:22:31.057 --> 00:22:34.957
I think personally, I just steer away from that term altogether.

00:22:34.957 --> 00:22:40.537
Like, unless you really are somebody who is sent by your company to go work

00:22:40.537 --> 00:22:44.457
for some, you know, for some discreet amount of time in another country,

00:22:44.457 --> 00:22:45.497
knowing you're coming back.

00:22:45.637 --> 00:22:51.057
Like, I think that's probably the most legitimate characterization of expat.

00:22:51.357 --> 00:22:56.617
But when I'm talking about people who are wanting to leave the United States,

00:22:56.617 --> 00:22:58.717
and that's the only people that I really work with.

00:22:58.717 --> 00:23:01.457
I don't, you know, I'm not working with people that want to leave other countries,

00:23:01.637 --> 00:23:06.197
but wanting to leave the United States and don't know whether they're going

00:23:06.197 --> 00:23:11.237
to come back or not, you know, but are thinking more in terms of permanent relocation.

00:23:11.897 --> 00:23:15.597
I talk about emigration because really, you know.

00:23:16.866 --> 00:23:20.246
That's the way that I think we should be thinking about our presence in other

00:23:20.246 --> 00:23:25.146
countries, because I think the way that the term expat has evolved,

00:23:25.246 --> 00:23:27.566
and a lot of people have written about this and talked about this,

00:23:27.746 --> 00:23:33.746
that the way that people have been using the term expat is to differentiate

00:23:33.746 --> 00:23:36.286
themselves from immigrants.

00:23:36.286 --> 00:23:41.966
It's because immigrants, you know, the term immigration, insanely,

00:23:42.006 --> 00:23:46.146
somehow, the term immigration has taken on a negative connotation.

00:23:46.546 --> 00:23:51.306
And particularly in the United States, I think a lot of U.S.

00:23:51.986 --> 00:23:58.266
Born people consider, like, sort of attach these characteristics to immigrants

00:23:58.266 --> 00:24:01.706
that they don't want to be associated with. Right.

00:24:01.866 --> 00:24:06.426
Like some people fleeing people that don't have a lot of resources.

00:24:06.726 --> 00:24:11.566
And so, you know, I think it's just it's just sort of an elitist way of differentiating

00:24:11.566 --> 00:24:14.566
themselves from immigrants.

00:24:14.786 --> 00:24:19.406
And so I don't I don't really even deal in those those terms.

00:24:19.606 --> 00:24:22.586
Like I talk about immigration, understanding that, you know,

00:24:22.706 --> 00:24:26.566
people may not become permanent immigrants from the United States.

00:24:26.566 --> 00:24:30.866
They may go live someplace for a year and decide, no, you know, this isn't for me.

00:24:31.446 --> 00:24:38.266
But nevertheless, like, for example, I'm never going to advise people to move someplace illegally.

00:24:38.626 --> 00:24:44.166
Right. So when I'm talking about immigration, I'm assuming you're going to get

00:24:44.166 --> 00:24:48.746
a visa if a visa is required and be there residing,

00:24:49.006 --> 00:24:55.786
whether it's temporarily or permanently in compliance with the immigration laws and all of that.

00:24:55.786 --> 00:25:01.786
So, yeah, I mean, I think expat, the term expat will eventually sort of fall

00:25:01.786 --> 00:25:06.326
out of favor as people start to realize that it's not meaningful and it's and

00:25:06.326 --> 00:25:08.706
it's really just elitist. I got you.

00:25:09.226 --> 00:25:12.806
All right. So what's what are the pros or cons to immigration?

00:25:13.914 --> 00:25:19.074
Wes, I want Wes to start it off because I. Okay, go ahead, Wes.

00:25:19.214 --> 00:25:20.614
Since he's not a gracious.

00:25:22.954 --> 00:25:27.534
Well, shoot. I'm actually just going to go off the information we wrote. See, good news.

00:25:28.674 --> 00:25:34.134
We highlighted dignity, healing, enhancement, or enhanced quality of life and

00:25:34.134 --> 00:25:35.914
possible affordability.

00:25:35.914 --> 00:25:43.874
For me, the dignity part was or is a major factor in why I decided or why I

00:25:43.874 --> 00:25:49.094
decided to join Liz in moving, you know, and I tell people, it's like this was her idea.

00:25:49.314 --> 00:25:56.174
You know, this wasn't this wasn't my idea, but I saw the benefits of receipt

00:25:56.174 --> 00:26:00.314
or getting back what I basically had lost in the U.S.

00:26:00.314 --> 00:26:08.074
And that was a, you know, a sense of manhood in a way, and also a sense of just

00:26:08.074 --> 00:26:12.314
being able to live without having to look over my shoulder.

00:26:12.734 --> 00:26:18.674
So, you know, what being in Mexico has done and being around the people here

00:26:18.674 --> 00:26:20.494
and just getting to know,

00:26:20.774 --> 00:26:26.774
you know, how people operate here, it's based on, you know, it's based on a

00:26:26.774 --> 00:26:28.434
lot of, you know, what do you call,

00:26:28.734 --> 00:26:33.314
not factors, but good characteristics, you know, that, you know.

00:26:34.354 --> 00:26:36.614
Not eye for an eye, well, I was not going to say that.

00:26:37.254 --> 00:26:42.194
But, you know, it's very genuine. It's very genuine. And I feel that people

00:26:42.194 --> 00:26:47.234
aren't really trying to hold something over you. I haven't gotten that feeling.

00:26:47.614 --> 00:26:51.934
The healing part, you know, I can actually get in water.

00:26:52.134 --> 00:26:56.614
That's been the biggest thing is healing my skin.

00:26:57.584 --> 00:27:02.424
And being able to set foot in the ocean because we do ocean conservation where

00:27:02.424 --> 00:27:03.544
we do a coral restoration.

00:27:03.924 --> 00:27:08.024
So, you know, it requires getting in the water and me having eczema,

00:27:08.224 --> 00:27:13.924
if there is a bad flare up or, you know, something that causes huge stress,

00:27:14.504 --> 00:27:20.724
whatever it may be, I can break out and I can be, you know, itching all over,

00:27:20.924 --> 00:27:25.724
inflammation and not be able to get in the water because it's just so uncomfortable.

00:27:25.724 --> 00:27:32.704
So it's dignity, healing, of course, enhanced quality of life. I mean, it's Mexico.

00:27:34.524 --> 00:27:41.224
And it's island life. I didn't know I was going to become an island boy or be on island time.

00:27:41.224 --> 00:27:45.264
And it's a real thing. But the quality of life,

00:27:45.624 --> 00:27:49.564
I couldn't, I really couldn't imagine it being in the States,

00:27:49.564 --> 00:27:54.244
how it is, how it is now to what Florida was like, or, you know,

00:27:54.564 --> 00:27:58.624
originally I'm from Virginia, but what Florida was like in the grand scheme

00:27:58.624 --> 00:28:00.204
of things for me was more.

00:28:00.204 --> 00:28:04.744
It felt, you know, it felt like jail, you know, it felt like,

00:28:04.804 --> 00:28:08.064
you know, it reminds me of the quote that you that you said earlier.

00:28:08.084 --> 00:28:13.564
It was like a jail, like a prison and, you know, not seeing a way out.

00:28:14.706 --> 00:28:19.346
On my own, you know, I just felt like, man, I'm just going to be stuck here forever.

00:28:19.466 --> 00:28:25.126
There is no option of leaving the state. There is no option of leaving the country.

00:28:25.346 --> 00:28:29.166
You know, one of the prerequisites, which goes in the bad news,

00:28:29.346 --> 00:28:35.886
is for getting your passport is not having child support arrears, which I had.

00:28:36.046 --> 00:28:42.466
I had $13,000 of child support arrears that I couldn't pay for.

00:28:42.906 --> 00:28:47.406
To get your passport. just to get my passport. That doesn't include,

00:28:47.426 --> 00:28:50.786
you know, getting visas and, you know, filling out all the paperwork,

00:28:50.946 --> 00:28:55.786
heading to consulates, doing APA steals and all those things, just the passport.

00:28:56.246 --> 00:29:01.566
So I was literally locked, you know, I was literally U.S. locked.

00:29:02.086 --> 00:29:08.626
And that was, man, that was really the biggest thing for me. Yeah.

00:29:09.826 --> 00:29:14.666
Well, I was just going to say, I wanted to add to the healing aspect because

00:29:14.666 --> 00:29:20.386
Wes talked about his eczema, which is, you know, definitely it's an inflammatory

00:29:20.386 --> 00:29:22.746
condition that is exacerbated by stress.

00:29:22.906 --> 00:29:29.606
And the healing part was huge for me also, because I have, I have still have anxiety,

00:29:29.846 --> 00:29:37.806
like generalized anxiety, but also like my anxiety would often manifest in like

00:29:37.806 --> 00:29:41.406
muscle spasms, right? So I had bad back, like a bad neck.

00:29:41.566 --> 00:29:44.666
I mean, I was always hurting. I was always going to the chiropractor.

00:29:45.006 --> 00:29:49.746
You know, I was just physically always hurting and in pain because of the stress.

00:29:49.966 --> 00:29:56.006
And that has been the biggest relief, I think, is just like the ability to wake

00:29:56.006 --> 00:30:02.246
up every day and not feel like my amygdala is on overdrive and just, you know,

00:30:02.746 --> 00:30:07.486
stress hormones flooding my body and tensing up and all of that that's been

00:30:07.486 --> 00:30:13.186
the biggest thing i think yeah i want one more thing i do when i let him let him go ahead i'm sorry.

00:30:14.743 --> 00:30:18.623
Well, I was going to say, you know, one thing that I that we discovered is we

00:30:18.623 --> 00:30:20.663
no longer trigger each other's triggers.

00:30:20.983 --> 00:30:23.923
Yeah. You know, we don't fight as much.

00:30:25.063 --> 00:30:28.963
I have anxiety as well. And, you know, that would clash a lot.

00:30:29.123 --> 00:30:32.123
Yeah. Or just due to the the amygdala.

00:30:32.483 --> 00:30:40.363
That's true. Our relationship has gotten a lot, lot more harmonious and less, less contentious.

00:30:41.103 --> 00:30:45.663
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, that makes the argument, because I was going to

00:30:45.663 --> 00:30:49.403
ask, why did y'all feel that you needed to leave?

00:30:50.243 --> 00:30:53.823
One of the things, and you've touched on that a lot in your writing,

00:30:54.523 --> 00:30:59.123
Elizabeth, and I encourage people to kind of go back and read that.

00:30:59.303 --> 00:31:05.403
Because the one thing, if y'all remember, audience, from the first time I had

00:31:05.403 --> 00:31:09.863
Elizabeth on, we talked about the fact that she's in an interracial marriage.

00:31:10.503 --> 00:31:14.503
And one of the pieces that drew my attention was why

00:31:14.503 --> 00:31:17.243
i'm explaining why you had to explain that you were

00:31:17.243 --> 00:31:20.203
a white woman i was like what what is this let me read this

00:31:20.203 --> 00:31:23.123
so that that i said why

00:31:23.123 --> 00:31:28.183
does she need to explain it so i i get that and i want the the audience to kind

00:31:28.183 --> 00:31:33.983
of you know read into why you know a lot of the struggles that you and wes went

00:31:33.983 --> 00:31:35.563
through when y'all first got married

00:31:35.563 --> 00:31:40.483
And I'm glad that this experience has brought y'all closer together.

00:31:40.843 --> 00:31:44.163
Yeah. Maybe I should have left the country too, but that's another story in

00:31:44.163 --> 00:31:45.183
another show. So anyway.

00:31:46.243 --> 00:31:47.703
It will save your marriage.

00:31:50.743 --> 00:31:52.483
So let's get into...

00:31:53.623 --> 00:31:57.863
I was going to get into some technical stuff, but let me let me get into some

00:31:57.863 --> 00:32:03.763
just some basic conversation. So a lot of people are talking about this subject

00:32:03.763 --> 00:32:05.663
because of the election. Right.

00:32:06.303 --> 00:32:10.283
And some people have talked about it eight years ago. And, you know,

00:32:10.363 --> 00:32:11.463
some people kind of did it.

00:32:11.583 --> 00:32:15.723
And there's been some podcasts, especially some black women who have gone on

00:32:15.723 --> 00:32:19.983
and they've done, you know, documented their journey, leaving the country and all that.

00:32:19.983 --> 00:32:23.943
But the question I'm going to ask you as experts in this field is,

00:32:24.143 --> 00:32:28.663
should someone leave their home country just because the person they wanted

00:32:28.663 --> 00:32:32.863
to win didn't win the election in their respective country?

00:32:35.023 --> 00:32:41.543
I think that's a very identity based question, you know, like,

00:32:41.663 --> 00:32:44.283
I mean, should somebody do it?

00:32:44.383 --> 00:32:49.003
Look, I'm of the mind. I come from immigrants, right? Like, I'm of the mind

00:32:49.003 --> 00:32:54.923
that everybody has the right to migrate if they choose and they shouldn't have

00:32:54.923 --> 00:32:57.143
to really necessarily explain it to anyone.

00:32:57.283 --> 00:33:03.343
I mean, you know, so that's the perspective that I'm coming from. Like, sure.

00:33:03.563 --> 00:33:11.163
Yeah, why not? But whether it's actually like imperative and whether it's a

00:33:11.163 --> 00:33:14.783
matter of safety and health and, you know,

00:33:14.943 --> 00:33:20.803
really emigrating because where you are is no longer really tenable,

00:33:20.803 --> 00:33:22.663
I think really boils down to identity.

00:33:22.663 --> 00:33:29.643
And I have clients, most of my clients for conscientious immigration consulting

00:33:29.643 --> 00:33:34.043
services have been either queer or.

00:33:34.494 --> 00:33:42.074
Black or both. And I do have clients that are not any of those things, right?

00:33:42.254 --> 00:33:47.334
But, you know, because maybe they're Jewish and they're living in a very MAGA-centric

00:33:47.334 --> 00:33:51.294
territory or, you know, different factors.

00:33:51.554 --> 00:33:55.454
But most of the people that have contacted me and that I'm working with are

00:33:55.454 --> 00:34:01.094
people that are high up on the list of those who will be targeted by this administration.

00:34:01.094 --> 00:34:06.834
And so if that's the case, yes, like if you can.

00:34:07.154 --> 00:34:10.674
And I mean, you know, people have different opinions and perspectives on this.

00:34:10.834 --> 00:34:16.654
But I think that if you have the means to do it and, you know,

00:34:16.774 --> 00:34:23.414
you're really suffering from the fear and the anxiety and and eventually,

00:34:23.594 --> 00:34:27.734
I mean, let's be honest, like we know that there are going to be people who will be persecuted.

00:34:28.294 --> 00:34:32.514
And if you know that you're somebody that falls into that category and you can

00:34:32.514 --> 00:34:33.994
leave, I think you should.

00:34:34.454 --> 00:34:39.294
But, you know, I mean, the thing is, it's everybody's individual calculus.

00:34:39.574 --> 00:34:46.154
And when people come to me and ask me to help them determine whether or where to go,

00:34:46.454 --> 00:34:51.054
whether to go, when to go, how to go, the answer might be for some people,

00:34:51.214 --> 00:34:54.734
well, you know what, like you're not well situated to actually leave the country.

00:34:54.734 --> 00:34:56.834
You know, maybe they don't have money.

00:34:57.154 --> 00:35:00.734
Maybe their health conditions will be prohibitive.

00:35:01.294 --> 00:35:05.874
Maybe they just, you know, are the type of people that need a lot of community

00:35:05.874 --> 00:35:08.254
around them and they're not going to have that.

00:35:08.374 --> 00:35:12.194
And it might be more stress than the situation they're in now.

00:35:12.654 --> 00:35:16.474
It's going to vary by individual and individual family, really.

00:35:16.714 --> 00:35:21.614
You know, there's no one general answer. Do you want to add to that?

00:35:22.394 --> 00:35:24.094
No. No, he doesn't want to answer.

00:35:26.474 --> 00:35:30.654
Well, I'm just saying, you know, and that's and I'm glad you stressed one of

00:35:30.654 --> 00:35:35.954
the things about health, because in y'all's case, it was health beneficial.

00:35:36.354 --> 00:35:42.074
And some it'll be prohibitive for some people to do that because it's based

00:35:42.074 --> 00:35:45.714
on what what they are, you know, dealing with.

00:35:46.254 --> 00:35:51.714
Does that country provide the kind of health care that would take care of them

00:35:51.714 --> 00:35:55.334
if they if they do want to go? So that's an important thing.

00:35:55.474 --> 00:36:00.894
And then the other thing is money because it's not a cheap process to do that. So I just...

00:36:02.500 --> 00:36:05.700
You know, folks just getting the wild hair and say, I'm leaving.

00:36:05.720 --> 00:36:08.560
It's like, yeah, it's not like getting on a Greyhound and going to,

00:36:08.600 --> 00:36:11.480
you know, something real.

00:36:12.900 --> 00:36:16.940
Yeah. And it's unfortunate because I think that the United States,

00:36:17.080 --> 00:36:19.020
and this is part of the problem with U.S.

00:36:19.580 --> 00:36:24.520
Exceptionalism, right? Like people think that they're welcome all over the world,

00:36:24.700 --> 00:36:29.920
you know, or they think that they don't have to meet requirements or they don't

00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:33.900
like that. there aren't restrictions on people from the U.S.

00:36:34.020 --> 00:36:37.280
Going to emigrate into different countries. And that is so not true.

00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:41.360
I mean, even countries that have very, very low, quote unquote,

00:36:41.540 --> 00:36:46.620
low bars compared to others, they're still going to want to see most likely

00:36:46.620 --> 00:36:47.840
a criminal background check.

00:36:47.980 --> 00:36:51.820
They're still going to want to see that you have something to live on.

00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:55.380
And what that something is, is going to vary from country to country and even

00:36:55.380 --> 00:36:57.140
within countries from visa to visa.

00:36:57.140 --> 00:37:03.800
But there's no nobody's nobody's just saying, you know, come on in and we don't

00:37:03.800 --> 00:37:07.440
care who you are, what you have like that's not it doesn't work that way.

00:37:07.640 --> 00:37:11.280
And but it is accessible, you know,

00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:20.200
if you do have means to accumulate money and and you can do it in a way that

00:37:20.200 --> 00:37:23.980
fits the visa requirements of,

00:37:24.180 --> 00:37:26.200
you know, the particular country that you're targeting.

00:37:27.140 --> 00:37:35.360
But yeah I mean it's I wrote recently about how there's so many clickbaity articles

00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:41.780
out there right about five countries you can move to right now like no no you can't you can go visit.

00:37:43.560 --> 00:37:46.380
But you can't move there and like even in

00:37:46.380 --> 00:37:49.160
Mexico I mean you know the the house that we're renting right

00:37:49.160 --> 00:37:52.420
now we had to show that we had our residency cards

00:37:52.420 --> 00:37:55.200
right that we were legally here we had

00:37:55.200 --> 00:38:02.040
to show they we had to give references like you know it's it's not necessarily

00:38:02.040 --> 00:38:07.860
this free-for-all where you can do whatever you want so yeah yeah so and that

00:38:07.860 --> 00:38:12.160
that gets back because you we had talked about mexico city being a big thing

00:38:12.160 --> 00:38:14.380
why do you think according to,

00:38:14.980 --> 00:38:20.280
the data the the mexico is the most popular country for americans to.

00:38:21.324 --> 00:38:27.384
Leave and go to? Why do you think Mexico is the place? Is it because of convenience or what?

00:38:27.864 --> 00:38:31.984
I think it's a combination of history, right?

00:38:32.124 --> 00:38:36.524
It's been the most popular place for a long time. And so you have established,

00:38:36.744 --> 00:38:40.224
quote unquote, expat communities for those types of people that just want to

00:38:40.224 --> 00:38:42.244
go and be around other Americans.

00:38:42.244 --> 00:38:43.964
Like there's a lot of those communities

00:38:43.964 --> 00:38:49.784
here already. cost of living is is dramatically lower than the U.S.

00:38:49.924 --> 00:38:52.784
And and it's also dramatically lower

00:38:52.784 --> 00:38:58.624
than some places in the region so for example we just visited Belize for a conference

00:38:58.624 --> 00:39:02.684
and I was kind of shocked at how expensive everything was compared to Mexico

00:39:02.684 --> 00:39:07.764
so cost of living is one obviously convenience right you can physically drive

00:39:07.764 --> 00:39:12.524
your car there which we did so you know just that sort of accessibility.

00:39:13.204 --> 00:39:19.844
And then the thresholds for residency used to be low.

00:39:20.764 --> 00:39:25.084
How much money you have to be earning on a consistent basis or assets that you

00:39:25.084 --> 00:39:29.884
have in the bank used to be pretty low. It has increased significantly in the

00:39:29.884 --> 00:39:33.344
last two years, probably partially because of these issues, right?

00:39:33.484 --> 00:39:36.924
They're trying to not, I think they're trying to not accept as many people.

00:39:38.258 --> 00:39:42.558
And then the other thing is you have a lot of illegal United States immigrants.

00:39:42.698 --> 00:39:47.378
So you have people from the U.S. that illegally migrate to Mexico.

00:39:47.918 --> 00:39:53.418
And that is something like border hopping that they used to allow.

00:39:53.418 --> 00:39:55.978
And I think that they'll be cracking down on more and more.

00:39:56.198 --> 00:40:01.858
But basically, people just going on a tourist visa, getting a six-month approval

00:40:01.858 --> 00:40:06.998
for a tourist visa, living here, jumping the border back to the U.S.

00:40:07.118 --> 00:40:10.738
For like a week and then coming back. That was a very common practice.

00:40:10.738 --> 00:40:14.358
I don't know if it really still is, but I don't recommend it.

00:40:14.778 --> 00:40:18.758
But yeah, I think all of those factors combined. Also, although it's a Spanish-speaking

00:40:18.758 --> 00:40:23.518
country, there are a lot of places where English is widely spoken in Mexico.

00:40:23.518 --> 00:40:25.998
So I think that attracts people as well.

00:40:26.598 --> 00:40:33.158
Yeah. And Monterey, there was a lot of German settlers. That's why I caught

00:40:33.158 --> 00:40:38.778
a Blanca got started there and you go, there's a lot of bakeries and all that kind of stuff.

00:40:38.998 --> 00:40:42.778
So, you know, it's like each, and that's the other piece too,

00:40:42.978 --> 00:40:47.898
is that you have to understand the history of the place where you want to go.

00:40:48.078 --> 00:40:52.898
So you can kind of find for like a better word, find your tribe, right.

00:40:53.618 --> 00:40:57.478
You know, in a community, that'll be easy for you to kind of settle in,

00:40:57.478 --> 00:41:01.378
as opposed to just saying, oh, I'm gone and just spinning the wheel.

00:41:01.538 --> 00:41:03.578
It's like, yeah, I'm going there. You know what I'm saying?

00:41:04.338 --> 00:41:06.258
Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

00:41:07.958 --> 00:41:13.698
So early in the 20th century, Marcus Garvey became a major person of influence

00:41:13.698 --> 00:41:18.078
because of his crusade for African-Americans to expatriate, to leave.

00:41:18.538 --> 00:41:25.038
Do you think it is a viable option for Americans of color to consider leaving

00:41:25.038 --> 00:41:28.718
America? And Wes, I'll let you start off on that one.

00:41:28.738 --> 00:41:32.018
And then Liz, you can finish up. Mm hmm.

00:41:32.802 --> 00:41:33.442
Yeah.

00:41:36.222 --> 00:41:39.482
You know what, you know, like a decade ago, I would have said no,

00:41:39.942 --> 00:41:42.702
you know, because I would have still considered the U.S.

00:41:42.782 --> 00:41:47.782
Home, you know, and knowing that my options were limited, this is where I'm going to be.

00:41:48.542 --> 00:41:53.382
But now, you know, basically since I've had the opportunity through Liz to be

00:41:53.382 --> 00:41:58.422
able to move and be able to be in a different surrounding, I would encourage,

00:41:58.742 --> 00:42:02.462
you know, all black people to at least, you know, for one,

00:42:02.982 --> 00:42:07.302
visit another place, visit another country, you know, be able to experience

00:42:07.302 --> 00:42:12.662
something outside of white supremacy and in the forms that it is in in the United States.

00:42:12.662 --> 00:42:16.922
And just, you know, be able to just see what's out there, you know?

00:42:17.102 --> 00:42:21.282
And that's one thing that I could never wrap my head around was,

00:42:21.462 --> 00:42:22.922
you know, just seeing what was out there.

00:42:23.162 --> 00:42:26.062
I felt like the United States was home.

00:42:26.502 --> 00:42:29.402
This is where, you know, this is where I'm from.

00:42:29.622 --> 00:42:34.642
You know, there was no reason to change it. You know, there was no reason to leave, you know?

00:42:35.042 --> 00:42:41.322
But, you know, I would encourage people to, I would encourage Blacks to, yes.

00:42:42.102 --> 00:42:48.522
At least find out what's out there. I've seen people moving to Thailand.

00:42:48.682 --> 00:42:51.662
I've seen Blacks moving to Japan.

00:42:51.882 --> 00:42:55.282
I've seen Blacks moving to Mexico, of course, here.

00:42:55.502 --> 00:43:01.462
So the world is huge. Our story didn't start in the United States.

00:43:02.422 --> 00:43:05.462
So yeah, let's go back to Africa.

00:43:05.922 --> 00:43:10.522
Let's go see what home was like before all that happened.

00:43:13.442 --> 00:43:17.022
Yeah. Liz, you wanted to say something? Go ahead.

00:43:17.922 --> 00:43:21.822
Well, I just wanted to say you asked whether it was viable. Right.

00:43:22.102 --> 00:43:24.262
And so that's a different question.

00:43:25.342 --> 00:43:29.962
And I think what is

00:43:29.962 --> 00:43:33.882
sad and frustrating for me

00:43:33.882 --> 00:43:39.322
as a person who's providing support and services and advice to people looking

00:43:39.322 --> 00:43:50.782
to leave is that the lack of generational wealth and the impacts of that particular

00:43:50.782 --> 00:43:53.662
type of white supremacy that exists in the United States.

00:43:54.262 --> 00:43:57.302
Create barriers right for people to leave

00:43:57.302 --> 00:44:00.242
for people to be resourced enough to leave i mean

00:44:00.242 --> 00:44:05.102
when you talk about you know the disparate impact of the criminal justice quote-unquote

00:44:05.102 --> 00:44:09.842
justice system the united states that you know you're going to have more people

00:44:09.842 --> 00:44:16.402
that have convictions because of that system and therefore will get denied you

00:44:16.402 --> 00:44:18.062
know when they run a criminal background checks.

00:44:18.402 --> 00:44:23.162
So I think, you know, it's, that's the part that it's, I'm not going to say

00:44:23.162 --> 00:44:27.302
it's not viable, but I think there are more barriers and.

00:44:28.743 --> 00:44:32.163
Yeah. I mean, and that's that those are the types of things that I would like

00:44:32.163 --> 00:44:34.023
to help people overcome.

00:44:34.443 --> 00:44:38.903
Right. Is to like find the pathway, even though the barriers are there,

00:44:39.323 --> 00:44:42.763
find the pathway and go to the right place for you.

00:44:43.183 --> 00:44:47.843
You know, that's the other thing. Like we like we just when we went to Belize,

00:44:48.183 --> 00:44:51.583
we were there with a couple who are awesome.

00:44:51.583 --> 00:44:54.343
A black couple from well i don't

00:44:54.343 --> 00:44:57.503
know where exactly they're from but oh no he's from dc but

00:44:57.503 --> 00:45:00.443
they live in south carolina and they're looking to

00:45:00.443 --> 00:45:03.463
move to belize like they are in love with it and you

00:45:03.463 --> 00:45:07.963
know they're like a hundred percent they know they want to move there and just

00:45:07.963 --> 00:45:13.203
seeing like the hope you know and the like and and then talking to them after

00:45:13.203 --> 00:45:19.243
we both we both came back from belize and like hearing the sadness and in her

00:45:19.243 --> 00:45:21.403
voice about being back in the U.S.

00:45:21.443 --> 00:45:27.603
And, you know, being cold, you know, being back in the thick of the drama,

00:45:28.163 --> 00:45:32.063
you know, it's like, wow, it can transform your life in a beautiful way.

00:45:32.223 --> 00:45:35.783
But it is a challenge. It's, you know, there are barriers.

00:45:36.703 --> 00:45:43.263
So that leads us to this point in the conversation where you and your husband

00:45:43.263 --> 00:45:51.563
have set up this consulting service to help people make a conscientious decision

00:45:51.563 --> 00:45:53.983
to leave the United States.

00:45:54.203 --> 00:45:58.023
So talk to people, talk to the audience about.

00:45:59.198 --> 00:46:04.618
The services you provide and how people can get in touch with you through that

00:46:04.618 --> 00:46:08.398
service and anything else you want to add to that?

00:46:09.298 --> 00:46:15.038
Yeah, sure. So the services that we provide are variable depending on where

00:46:15.038 --> 00:46:16.578
people are in their journey.

00:46:16.818 --> 00:46:20.218
So, so far, and we just launched this in January of 2024.

00:46:20.298 --> 00:46:26.358
So, you know, we're fairly new, but so far it's been a lot of people that are

00:46:26.358 --> 00:46:31.178
essentially at the stage where they're not sure where they want to go.

00:46:32.738 --> 00:46:36.578
Then that's usually the biggest challenge is deciding where you want to go.

00:46:36.698 --> 00:46:40.278
And you can't start doing really anything until you know where you're headed, right?

00:46:40.778 --> 00:46:46.698
So a lot of what I've been doing with people is getting a feel for their particular

00:46:46.698 --> 00:46:49.698
individual circumstances, because everybody's are different, right?

00:46:49.778 --> 00:46:53.218
How much money they have, how they earn their money, what their medical issues

00:46:53.218 --> 00:46:55.578
might be, what their identities are.

00:46:55.818 --> 00:46:59.198
So this is actually a really good point that I want to mention,

00:46:59.318 --> 00:47:02.458
actually, because like Wes said, let's go back to Africa.

00:47:02.678 --> 00:47:05.698
But if you're a queer couple,

00:47:08.038 --> 00:47:12.478
then I'm not going to tell you go to Ghana. I'm not going to advise you.

00:47:12.618 --> 00:47:18.138
And you probably already know that you shouldn't, but your identities are huge,

00:47:18.378 --> 00:47:22.838
hugely influential in where you will be safe and where you will be accepted,

00:47:23.218 --> 00:47:25.178
your religious identity.

00:47:25.938 --> 00:47:33.458
Gender, race, disabilities, whether you're a family with children versus an individual.

00:47:33.758 --> 00:47:38.818
All of these factors are really, really influential in what's a good decision.

00:47:39.018 --> 00:47:43.338
So when I meet with people for that initial consult, it's basically gleaning

00:47:43.338 --> 00:47:47.638
all that information about who they are, what they need, what they prefer,

00:47:47.938 --> 00:47:54.258
and then helping them narrow down options for what might be a good destination for them.

00:47:55.003 --> 00:47:59.943
And then from there, once they are like, okay, this is what I want to do.

00:48:00.083 --> 00:48:05.463
I want to go to this country, this city. I want to pursue this type of visa

00:48:05.463 --> 00:48:10.763
based on what I have, my income thresholds, my resources, all of that.

00:48:11.003 --> 00:48:15.103
And sometimes your age, age is influential, right? If you're retirement age,

00:48:15.223 --> 00:48:16.883
you might qualify for a particular visa.

00:48:17.103 --> 00:48:19.663
If you're under 35, you might qualify for something else.

00:48:20.303 --> 00:48:26.183
So figuring out what people will be eligible for, and then helping them to design

00:48:26.183 --> 00:48:28.223
the plan, because you need a plan.

00:48:28.503 --> 00:48:32.623
You need a plan with a timeline and milestones.

00:48:33.083 --> 00:48:41.003
And like, for example, if you are emigrating and your visa requires that you

00:48:41.003 --> 00:48:44.663
submit a background check, a criminal background check, it has to be,

00:48:44.803 --> 00:48:46.043
depending on where you go,

00:48:46.543 --> 00:48:50.743
let's, for example, Spain, it has to have been conducted within the past six months.

00:48:50.823 --> 00:48:55.263
So if you're not moving until next year, you can't get your background check

00:48:55.263 --> 00:48:58.643
now. It's not going to be in use to you. So you need a plan.

00:48:58.843 --> 00:49:03.763
So constructing the plan, laying everything out in a spreadsheet of what dates

00:49:03.763 --> 00:49:08.063
you need to be doing X, Y, and Z, how much money you need to be amassing,

00:49:08.063 --> 00:49:11.623
and all of those little tasks that come in between.

00:49:12.283 --> 00:49:16.583
That is the type of thing that we help people with. And not everybody needs that, Right.

00:49:16.743 --> 00:49:20.263
Not everybody needs that help. Some people are highly organized and they manage

00:49:20.263 --> 00:49:23.483
big projects and they don't need it. But a lot of people do need it.

00:49:24.283 --> 00:49:27.823
And if they don't have somebody putting that all together, they don't really

00:49:27.823 --> 00:49:32.123
know where to start. So that's that's like our big bulk offering.

00:49:32.343 --> 00:49:35.603
Right. Is is actually walking people through that process. And then the other

00:49:35.603 --> 00:49:41.743
piece is helping them to identify the resources they might need on the ground.

00:49:41.743 --> 00:49:47.063
So I always recommend, especially for getting housing, that you connect with

00:49:47.063 --> 00:49:50.963
somebody on the ground who can actually either a real estate agent or somebody

00:49:50.963 --> 00:49:55.023
that can facilitate to make sure you're not getting scammed, right?

00:49:55.183 --> 00:50:00.023
Make sure that like there's actually a property available that is actually cost

00:50:00.023 --> 00:50:01.323
what they're advertising it for.

00:50:02.443 --> 00:50:05.983
And immigration lawyers, because I'm not practicing immigration law.

00:50:05.983 --> 00:50:10.783
So, you know, if somebody, if I can look at a situation, look at the consulate

00:50:10.783 --> 00:50:14.823
page and determine, okay, you should qualify for this visa, but then they have

00:50:14.823 --> 00:50:19.183
complications and little, you know, different aspects that might interfere.

00:50:19.643 --> 00:50:22.483
Okay, well, then you're going to need an immigration lawyer to do this for you.

00:50:22.623 --> 00:50:26.623
So liaising and that sort of thing, because a lot of people are trying to do

00:50:26.623 --> 00:50:29.323
this while they're working a full-time job, right?

00:50:29.983 --> 00:50:34.303
So they don't have time to do all of this. It's a lot. So basically kind of

00:50:34.303 --> 00:50:36.783
holding people's hands through the process.

00:50:37.063 --> 00:50:41.423
And then there's the emotional aspect, you know, because it can get overwhelming,

00:50:41.423 --> 00:50:42.703
it can get discouraging.

00:50:43.323 --> 00:50:45.123
And so just kind of like.

00:50:46.450 --> 00:50:52.170
Supporting people through that emotional stress and discouragement and keeping

00:50:52.170 --> 00:50:54.810
them focused on making the thing happen.

00:50:55.010 --> 00:50:58.430
You have to take the steps to make the thing happen. It will not happen on its own.

00:51:00.050 --> 00:51:07.850
And they can find us on our website. So the website is www.SillyConsultingServices.com.

00:51:08.490 --> 00:51:09.670
I'm on LinkedIn.

00:51:10.390 --> 00:51:15.230
I'm on YouTube. I'm on all the social media platforms.

00:51:16.310 --> 00:51:20.090
Yeah, they can find us. They can definitely find Blue Sky. Just sign up on Blue Sky.

00:51:20.450 --> 00:51:24.510
But the website is the best place to start. And you can go ahead and click the,

00:51:24.590 --> 00:51:29.450
there's a screening form that just asks very basic information and fill it out.

00:51:29.550 --> 00:51:33.290
And then I'll reach out to organize a meeting and all of that.

00:51:33.450 --> 00:51:40.710
But yeah, basically, we're taking people from this vague idea of I want to get out of the U.S.

00:51:41.070 --> 00:51:48.150
To a more targeted idea, which is I want to move to X country by this date,

00:51:48.350 --> 00:51:55.090
leveraging this visa pathway, and then taking that from idea to execution.

00:51:55.490 --> 00:51:58.110
Yeah, and that's very, very important.

00:51:58.570 --> 00:52:02.150
Wes, do you want to add anything to that or were we good?

00:52:02.730 --> 00:52:08.010
The only thing I wanted to add is part of our conscientious immigration process

00:52:08.010 --> 00:52:11.670
has been, since we got to the island, is volunteering.

00:52:12.230 --> 00:52:19.850
So we, you know, we devote our time, you know, to coral restoration with the local program, CMAQ.

00:52:20.110 --> 00:52:21.950
And, you know, we've been able to eat.

00:52:23.072 --> 00:52:28.152
Give video, I'm sorry, of the coral restoration that we do on pretty much a

00:52:28.152 --> 00:52:33.072
weekly basis and put it on YouTube. So we have a YouTube channel for the coral

00:52:33.072 --> 00:52:35.072
restoration. It's Waves and Wi-Fi.

00:52:35.252 --> 00:52:38.732
They can find us there. We're trying to deliver videos weekly,

00:52:38.732 --> 00:52:44.212
but that is part of what we thought conscientious would be is volunteering our

00:52:44.212 --> 00:52:48.752
time in the space that we're at and being able to give back.

00:52:49.472 --> 00:52:53.392
Yes. Thank you for that. I forgot about that. Yeah. And that's and that's important

00:52:53.392 --> 00:52:57.632
because regardless of where y'all decide to live,

00:52:58.232 --> 00:53:02.092
you know, if you decide you're going to be like me and stick it out in the United

00:53:02.092 --> 00:53:07.672
States and, you know, or are you going to or you're going to seek out people

00:53:07.672 --> 00:53:11.912
like Elizabeth and Wes and get the information you need to move?

00:53:11.912 --> 00:53:15.812
The bottom line is you need to be a good citizen regardless

00:53:15.812 --> 00:53:18.852
of where you live and i'm glad

00:53:18.852 --> 00:53:21.932
that part of your service is stressing that

00:53:21.932 --> 00:53:25.472
point and if i ever decide guys

00:53:25.472 --> 00:53:28.272
that i am going to surrender the fight

00:53:28.272 --> 00:53:33.672
and take the wb the boys road and head on head on somewhere else and you will

00:53:33.672 --> 00:53:39.712
definitely be the first ones i call elizabeth sillick larue and and and devon

00:53:39.712 --> 00:53:47.612
west larue i I greatly appreciate y'all coming on and sharing that and keep up the good work.

00:53:48.312 --> 00:53:51.852
And, and again, enjoy your holidays, enjoy your time.

00:53:51.992 --> 00:53:58.892
And I know 2025 is going to be a prosperous year for you and I wish you much success and all that.

00:53:59.372 --> 00:54:03.332
Thank you so much, Eric. Thank you for having us. And, and we would,

00:54:03.452 --> 00:54:07.152
we will be happy to work with you if that time comes.

00:54:09.092 --> 00:54:11.852
All right guys if we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:22.640
Music.

00:54:21.192 --> 00:54:26.972
This is dr tracy pearson host of what we don't know with dr tracy and serious

00:54:26.972 --> 00:54:32.852
xm progresses contributor to tell me everything with john fugle saying congratulations

00:54:32.852 --> 00:54:37.732
eric on your 300th episode What an incredible achievement.

00:54:38.052 --> 00:54:41.772
You are one of my favorite podcasts to be on and listen to.

00:54:42.012 --> 00:54:48.632
Here's to a healthy and happy 2025 and to many more thoughtful episodes. Well done, my friend.

00:54:51.472 --> 00:54:57.372
It's been a real pleasure being on your show here all these years. It's a fantastic show.

00:54:57.852 --> 00:55:00.692
I think the thing I like about it best is you and.

00:55:01.200 --> 00:55:44.080
Music.

00:55:43.922 --> 00:55:50.302
Founder of MBG Podcast Network, and Eric, I want to congratulate you on 300

00:55:50.302 --> 00:55:53.502
episodes of A Moment with Eric Fleming.

00:55:53.742 --> 00:55:58.542
Your unwavering commitment to amplifying Black voices and politics and leadership

00:55:58.542 --> 00:56:02.322
has inspired and informed so many, including myself.

00:56:02.642 --> 00:56:07.262
This achievement is a testament to your dedication, your passion,

00:56:07.322 --> 00:56:10.662
and the impactful conversation you bring to the table.

00:56:11.422 --> 00:56:16.722
So here's to 300 episodes of excellence, and we're looking forward to another

00:56:16.722 --> 00:56:21.842
300 episodes of excellence on the MBG Podcast Network.

00:56:21.842 --> 00:56:31.822
We'll see you next time.

00:56:25.360 --> 00:56:34.000
Music.

00:56:32.462 --> 00:56:38.902
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Eric Drucker.

00:56:38.902 --> 00:56:44.922
Eric Drucker's drawings and posters are a familiar sight in the global street

00:56:44.922 --> 00:56:49.382
art movement, and his paintings appear frequently on the covers of The New Yorker.

00:56:49.822 --> 00:56:54.982
Born and raised in New York City, he began to slap his images on the streets as a teenager.

00:56:55.482 --> 00:56:59.542
Since then, Drucker's reputation as a social critic has grown,

00:56:59.722 --> 00:57:03.602
and it's led to countless editorial illustrations for The Nation,

00:57:04.042 --> 00:57:06.562
The New York Times, The Progressive, and etc.

00:57:07.162 --> 00:57:11.962
His art is in the permanent collections of many museums, including the Whitney

00:57:11.962 --> 00:57:16.802
Museum, the Museum of Modern Art, the Brooklyn Museum, and the Library of Congress.

00:57:17.062 --> 00:57:19.482
He lives in the San Francisco Bay Area.

00:57:19.762 --> 00:57:24.542
His first book, Flood, a novel in pictures, won the American Book Award,

00:57:24.802 --> 00:57:30.242
followed by Bloodsong, which I understand soon will be a major motion picture.

00:57:30.762 --> 00:57:35.242
His new book, the graphic novel, Naked City, was recently published by Dark

00:57:35.242 --> 00:57:40.422
Horse Books, and that's the book we're going to talk about, along with some other things.

00:57:40.642 --> 00:57:44.402
So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a

00:57:44.402 --> 00:57:47.242
guest on this podcast, Eric Drucker.

00:57:49.702 --> 00:57:50.742
Eric Drucker.

00:57:50.960 --> 00:58:00.880
Music.

00:58:00.729 --> 00:58:04.729
Drucker. How are you doing, sir? You doing good? Yeah, I'm doing good, Eric.

00:58:05.449 --> 00:58:09.729
Well, yeah, it is kind of cool to always talk to another Eric.

00:58:10.189 --> 00:58:14.349
And I greatly appreciate you taking the time to come on the podcast.

00:58:15.069 --> 00:58:21.569
And I'm really kind of honored because you are one of those undercover celebrities, right?

00:58:22.089 --> 00:58:28.449
Because a lot of people know your art, but they don't necessarily know you.

00:58:29.069 --> 00:58:34.049
Just for example, how many New Yorker covers have you done?

00:58:34.849 --> 00:58:39.649
Oh, there's been several dozen over the years, especially in recent years.

00:58:41.469 --> 00:58:45.409
I guess it's been three or four dozen now.

00:58:45.569 --> 00:58:51.869
I just had number 40, 41, I think, just hit the newsstand last week.

00:58:52.189 --> 00:58:58.629
Okay. I doubt coming out of the subway station who looks like Santa Claus. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:59.189 --> 00:59:04.049
That was number 41. So whatever, you do the math.

00:59:05.209 --> 00:59:10.289
At least three dozen. They accumulate over time.

00:59:10.509 --> 00:59:16.069
And wherever I live, I'm living on the West Coast now, but I'm still fixated in New York.

00:59:16.309 --> 00:59:20.449
When you're born and raised in a place, it never really gets out of your system.

00:59:20.749 --> 00:59:22.949
Oh, I agree. I grew up in Chicago.

00:59:23.409 --> 00:59:27.189
And so, you know, when I got to go to the convention this year,

00:59:27.329 --> 00:59:32.369
it was like, oh, my God, you know, it was just memories and catching up with

00:59:32.369 --> 00:59:34.809
family and friends and all that stuff. It was pretty cool.

00:59:36.289 --> 00:59:41.409
One of my one of the covers, of course, the cover I like the most is the one

00:59:41.409 --> 00:59:44.809
I'm probably getting the title wrong, but it's called The Fight,

00:59:45.089 --> 00:59:49.849
where you have the elephant and the donkey in the middle of the boxing ring and stuff and all that.

00:59:49.849 --> 00:59:57.429
I mean, just the way it's depicted, it looks like a Leonard Neiman kind of theme

00:59:57.429 --> 01:00:00.149
of a boxing match like back in the day.

01:00:00.889 --> 01:00:02.729
So I really appreciated that one.

01:00:04.367 --> 01:00:08.247
Let's get into, now you just wrote a new book called Naked City.

01:00:08.887 --> 01:00:11.807
Why did you choose that title, Naked City?

01:00:12.267 --> 01:00:15.907
Well, I had a different working title while I was doing it.

01:00:16.127 --> 01:00:21.027
I was calling it Street Song because it's about a street singer who performs

01:00:21.027 --> 01:00:22.947
on the street and down on subway platforms.

01:00:23.727 --> 01:00:28.027
And I was, at the last minute, I was thinking, well, Naked City,

01:00:28.207 --> 01:00:34.707
I just like the sound of it. It's really, you know, you could interpret it in so many ways.

01:00:35.187 --> 01:00:43.627
And although it was used for a movie in the 1940s, a noir crime film,

01:00:43.927 --> 01:00:51.007
I'm almost goofing on that because this book is kind of literally dealing with

01:00:51.007 --> 01:00:53.607
nakedness in all its forms.

01:00:54.167 --> 01:00:59.087
You know, the protagonist is a young woman who's having a hard time paying her rent.

01:00:59.087 --> 01:01:02.167
So she gets a job posing as

01:01:02.167 --> 01:01:05.627
a model for this this painter who you

01:01:05.627 --> 01:01:09.347
know paints her in the nude so there's nakedness there

01:01:09.347 --> 01:01:13.147
but it's also this nakedness of

01:01:13.147 --> 01:01:21.287
of in the in the sense of of expose the whole city is exposed all the economic

01:01:21.287 --> 01:01:27.487
workings behind it and how everyone is having a hard time surviving and how

01:01:27.487 --> 01:01:31.647
we see each one of the characters is naked in a different chapter.

01:01:31.847 --> 01:01:34.647
Even the painter himself winds up naked.

01:01:35.067 --> 01:01:40.227
So it's really an exploration of nakedness. What does that really mean?

01:01:40.387 --> 01:01:45.427
And is there a difference between nudity and the state of being naked?

01:01:46.127 --> 01:01:51.287
Well, it's kind of a theme of vulnerability. So I did something a little different.

01:01:51.507 --> 01:01:54.767
Normally, I don't jump into the interview. I kind of do the icebreaker.

01:01:55.287 --> 01:02:01.007
But I wanted to wait a little bit and get started talking about the book because

01:02:01.007 --> 01:02:03.407
the quote that I pulled comes from the book.

01:02:04.047 --> 01:02:11.407
And your quote is, a moment passes in the blink of an eye, and before you know it, we're nobody.

01:02:12.047 --> 01:02:13.747
What does that quote mean to you?

01:02:14.627 --> 01:02:22.007
Well, how fleeting it all is and how transient can't, or one's whole lifetime is.

01:02:22.367 --> 01:02:25.767
But even within the day, even if you're working on something,

01:02:25.967 --> 01:02:29.487
some activity, or even this little conversation we're having,

01:02:29.487 --> 01:02:33.327
we're kind of getting into it, gradually getting into the meat of it,

01:02:33.407 --> 01:02:35.467
and then before we know it,

01:02:35.707 --> 01:02:38.767
somehow it's all gone. It was in the...

01:02:39.620 --> 01:02:43.220
Future, then now it's in the present, and before we know it, it's in the past.

01:02:43.760 --> 01:02:49.560
And how, at least my experience, the way my life has been going,

01:02:49.680 --> 01:02:52.460
I'm constantly amazed by it.

01:02:52.540 --> 01:02:57.460
I never really get used to it, even though I know intellectually that things

01:02:57.460 --> 01:02:59.040
are always changing, and we're

01:02:59.040 --> 01:03:02.980
passing through it, and things are always evolving, and we're growing.

01:03:03.600 --> 01:03:07.160
And we're all mortal, right? It's all temporary we're alive

01:03:07.160 --> 01:03:10.080
for a few years so that's one

01:03:10.080 --> 01:03:13.300
of the themes of naked city is just getting into

01:03:13.300 --> 01:03:16.820
that the the uh the passage of time

01:03:16.820 --> 01:03:20.060
and as you said this vulnerability you know

01:03:20.060 --> 01:03:23.960
nakedness just being another word for

01:03:23.960 --> 01:03:27.360
being vulnerable and being vulnerable to

01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:30.200
to the passage of time and death that

01:03:30.200 --> 01:03:33.480
that's what it is to be mortal right that's what mortality

01:03:33.480 --> 01:03:36.840
is the paradox is that

01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:39.900
if if we were able to just live on and

01:03:39.900 --> 01:03:43.340
on for century after century i don't

01:03:43.340 --> 01:03:48.200
know if anything would have much meaning we would we would be taking it all

01:03:48.200 --> 01:03:53.460
for granted i think the very fact that it's so brief and so finite that is what

01:03:53.460 --> 01:04:01.040
makes everything seem so urgent and and uh and precious yeah yeah that the the

01:04:01.040 --> 01:04:03.080
key word like i said that you know when

01:04:03.380 --> 01:04:07.880
I thought about naked and after reading the book was a vulnerability,

01:04:07.880 --> 01:04:12.780
I think it's very important for us to acknowledge that.

01:04:12.960 --> 01:04:15.980
And a lot of times part of our struggle.

01:04:16.680 --> 01:04:19.480
Whether it's dealing with art, whether it's dealing with politics,

01:04:19.740 --> 01:04:25.940
just life in general is accepting the fact that we are vulnerable and we do

01:04:25.940 --> 01:04:28.300
a lot of things to try to protect that,

01:04:28.300 --> 01:04:32.380
which leads me to why did you choose

01:04:32.380 --> 01:04:36.820
all the three characters why was isabelle's

01:04:36.820 --> 01:04:39.640
character more compelling to tell the story through

01:04:39.640 --> 01:04:43.340
of the those three central characters

01:04:43.340 --> 01:04:47.440
why did i make isabel the protagonist the

01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:51.080
main one yes she has more more age

01:04:51.080 --> 01:04:56.640
time than anyone else well that's a good question and of course it was a bit

01:04:56.640 --> 01:05:02.680
risky for me just as a man to be telling a story really through the eyes of

01:05:02.680 --> 01:05:08.940
a woman and the woman is narrating the story it's all much of it is written in the first person.

01:05:10.002 --> 01:05:15.462
I suppose that just for that reason alone, because it was challenging, because I'm not a woman.

01:05:15.742 --> 01:05:22.782
And I've already done books where the character, the hero was a man who looked a bit like me.

01:05:23.202 --> 01:05:29.022
I think it was the challenge. And I feel like I'm not completely out of my element.

01:05:29.422 --> 01:05:32.602
After all, I've known many women in my life.

01:05:33.062 --> 01:05:38.682
And we're not really, we have more in common than we are different.

01:05:40.042 --> 01:05:42.742
And maybe just again the theme of

01:05:42.742 --> 01:05:46.582
vulnerability women are more vulnerable in

01:05:46.582 --> 01:05:54.182
this culture for all kinds of reasons she's she's going through she's going

01:05:54.182 --> 01:05:58.342
through this transition and it's not it's not clear at the beginning we see

01:05:58.342 --> 01:06:03.422
her in the first page she's hitchhiking she has her thumb sticking out.

01:06:04.002 --> 01:06:07.822
And she's hitchhiking because she wants to go to the big city.

01:06:08.202 --> 01:06:12.842
But she seems to be in a big rush. And we're not clear exactly why.

01:06:13.242 --> 01:06:17.242
You know, what is she running away from? She looks awfully young.

01:06:17.682 --> 01:06:23.602
And why is she hitchhiking? Anyway, why isn't she taking a Greyhound bus or something?

01:06:23.862 --> 01:06:28.182
And some of these things are revealed at the end of that chapter.

01:06:28.802 --> 01:06:33.762
But it's because, again, vulnerability. She's frightened.

01:06:34.102 --> 01:06:37.142
She feels like they're coming after her.

01:06:37.462 --> 01:06:41.882
The authorities are coming after her or the walls are closing in.

01:06:42.122 --> 01:06:51.742
And she's not even sure if the ICE police are coming after her or paying any

01:06:51.742 --> 01:06:54.502
attention to her at all. Is it all in her head?

01:06:55.722 --> 01:06:59.762
Is she documented or not? She doesn't know.

01:06:59.982 --> 01:07:06.782
All she knows is that her mother was from Mexico and it turned out wasn't born

01:07:06.782 --> 01:07:08.962
in the U.S. and was then deported.

01:07:10.228 --> 01:07:14.228
But she doesn't know, she thinks she was born in the U.S., which means if you're

01:07:14.228 --> 01:07:16.568
born here, you're in like Flynn, right?

01:07:17.768 --> 01:07:21.848
But now, you know, with this election, are we calling it a re-election?

01:07:22.028 --> 01:07:23.668
I guess it is a re-election.

01:07:23.928 --> 01:07:26.348
Yeah, technically it's a re-election for him, yeah.

01:07:26.928 --> 01:07:32.768
He's talking about, well, we may have to deport even people who were born in the U.S.

01:07:32.768 --> 01:07:36.088
He's kind of floating that idea to see how that goes over.

01:07:36.088 --> 01:07:41.028
So a lot of these things that I suspected while I was working on it are now

01:07:41.028 --> 01:07:47.308
becoming more and more concrete and more urgent because I was working on it during 45.

01:07:47.808 --> 01:07:52.108
During the first term, and then all through Biden, all through the pandemic

01:07:52.108 --> 01:08:00.148
years, allowed me to really just stay in the studio and socially isolate myself

01:08:00.148 --> 01:08:01.528
and get a lot of work done.

01:08:01.528 --> 01:08:07.288
But a lot of the themes, political themes that were going on in the culture,

01:08:07.288 --> 01:08:11.928
I made a point of weaving right into the story.

01:08:12.168 --> 01:08:18.168
And one of them is that very thing of immigration and what does it mean to be illegal or illegal?

01:08:18.668 --> 01:08:22.788
What if you're undocumented? What exactly does that mean?

01:08:22.788 --> 01:08:27.528
I mean, ultimately, I think the purpose is just to make people feel vulnerable

01:08:27.528 --> 01:08:33.168
so that they won't make so that they won't complain, won't complain to the boss

01:08:33.168 --> 01:08:37.168
and demand to get paid a minimum wage.

01:08:37.428 --> 01:08:41.288
I mean, I think it comes down to something as mundane as that.

01:08:41.588 --> 01:08:46.128
If you're illegal, then you could be deported at any moment.

01:08:46.348 --> 01:08:51.728
You're in no position of organizing a union or even talking to any of your fellow

01:08:51.728 --> 01:08:54.248
workers. You have to keep a low profile.

01:08:54.608 --> 01:08:59.928
And that's why there have always been, you know, millions of illegals in this

01:08:59.928 --> 01:09:05.688
country taking all the food that we eat, you know, harvesting the crops and

01:09:05.688 --> 01:09:08.168
all of that going back through history.

01:09:09.220 --> 01:09:15.380
So anyhow, Eric, these are things that I guess are on many of our minds,

01:09:15.380 --> 01:09:22.120
and it's hard to really process them in a way that's not going to just overwhelm

01:09:22.120 --> 01:09:26.100
us or fill us with resentment or anger.

01:09:26.100 --> 01:09:33.880
And I guess if you're any kind of artist, whether you're a writer or a poet or a songwriter,

01:09:34.180 --> 01:09:42.380
it gives you a way of transforming some of these emotions or half-baked ideas,

01:09:42.720 --> 01:09:50.840
transforming them into the form of a story or a melody so that you could more

01:09:50.840 --> 01:09:55.820
effectively communicate with people who might not want to just hear you.

01:09:56.960 --> 01:10:02.260
Complaining about shit, you know, but they like hearing you,

01:10:02.280 --> 01:10:06.980
you know, tell a funny joke or sing a pretty song or paint a pretty picture.

01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:14.760
And that's what, I mean, I think that's what art, that's what the function of art is, in my opinion.

01:10:15.020 --> 01:10:17.540
Not the only, there are many other functions, of course.

01:10:17.900 --> 01:10:21.420
But when I look back through art history through the centuries,

01:10:22.040 --> 01:10:25.640
I see that so much of the most powerful art,

01:10:26.100 --> 01:10:28.900
really deals with the issues of the

01:10:28.900 --> 01:10:32.780
day the political and you know social contradictions

01:10:32.780 --> 01:10:35.700
of the time that the artist was

01:10:35.700 --> 01:10:39.140
living in whether it was you know in the 15th

01:10:39.140 --> 01:10:45.940
century the 12th century or you know or the 1950s the 1960s when when james

01:10:45.940 --> 01:10:50.740
baldwin was writing you know some of it was fiction some of it was non-fiction

01:10:50.740 --> 01:10:56.860
but even when it was fiction he was talking very much about what was going on,

01:10:56.940 --> 01:10:58.380
you know, outside of his,

01:10:58.700 --> 01:11:05.840
outside the doorway of his room where he had, he was holed up with his typewriter

01:11:05.840 --> 01:11:08.400
and trying to make sense of it all.

01:11:09.240 --> 01:11:18.580
Yeah. So, and I agree that art plays an important part in the political discussion because,

01:11:19.040 --> 01:11:26.540
you know, I grew up in an era, it was like a major, major point when James Brown

01:11:26.540 --> 01:11:29.020
made a song, I'm black and I'm proud, right?

01:11:30.312 --> 01:11:38.012
One of my favorite comics is the X-Men, and they were winning award after award.

01:11:38.292 --> 01:11:43.392
It was like a two-year saga, which does no justice trying to make it a two-hour

01:11:43.392 --> 01:11:46.412
movie, but The Rise of the Phoenix.

01:11:46.732 --> 01:11:52.572
And the whole concept of the X-Men was dealing with the racial tension in America,

01:11:52.752 --> 01:11:57.112
or even now to say the issue about immigration.

01:11:57.112 --> 01:12:02.492
It's like, how are we treating people who are different than us or different

01:12:02.492 --> 01:12:03.892
than the quote unquote norm?

01:12:04.972 --> 01:12:10.192
And yeah, yeah. And so, you know, and it was and so a lot of us,

01:12:10.372 --> 01:12:15.472
you know, that read that comic and all that, that had that shaped our opinions

01:12:15.472 --> 01:12:17.272
about how we view other people.

01:12:17.272 --> 01:12:24.232
So I really agree with you that art plays a major role, which kind of leads to how can,

01:12:24.732 --> 01:12:31.212
well, let me, let me, is it possible in this climate, not necessarily in this

01:12:31.212 --> 01:12:34.052
century, but in this climate that we're in politically, is it,

01:12:34.152 --> 01:12:36.972
is it possible for an artist to survive?

01:12:36.972 --> 01:12:43.612
And if, and if so, what should they do to, to make sure that survival happens?

01:12:45.312 --> 01:12:48.372
Yeah that's that's that's the question that

01:12:48.372 --> 01:12:54.812
each one of the characters in the book asks is is it possible to survive as

01:12:54.812 --> 01:13:02.052
an artist in the 21st century and you know that raises so many other questions

01:13:02.052 --> 01:13:07.632
like what did you know what do we mean by surviving i mean just you know,

01:13:08.968 --> 01:13:12.128
And, you know, surviving as an artist, does that mean, you know,

01:13:12.248 --> 01:13:17.608
making a living, expecting people to pay us money for doing our art?

01:13:17.728 --> 01:13:19.768
Is that all we're talking about?

01:13:20.168 --> 01:13:29.848
Or is it talking more about this surviving with our souls intact, our creativity intact?

01:13:30.028 --> 01:13:35.848
Because I see when I look around, most of us seem to have that beaten out of us pretty early on.

01:13:37.248 --> 01:13:40.108
Especially in recent years i mean i think we're in

01:13:40.108 --> 01:13:43.168
this kind of very dangerous era now

01:13:43.168 --> 01:13:46.148
with the rise of well just

01:13:46.148 --> 01:13:49.048
even the internet and social media and all

01:13:49.048 --> 01:13:51.788
these things where people are spending so much of

01:13:51.788 --> 01:13:55.308
their time and yes it's interactive

01:13:55.308 --> 01:13:59.228
i suppose it's more interactive than television was

01:13:59.228 --> 01:14:02.928
but it's all working on a certain format you

01:14:02.928 --> 01:14:06.088
know you're still in zuckerberg's format or you

01:14:06.088 --> 01:14:10.028
know the format of one of these tech tech giants

01:14:10.028 --> 01:14:13.528
that i think is really kind of limits our

01:14:13.528 --> 01:14:16.748
imagination or our sense of possibilities we're

01:14:16.748 --> 01:14:20.188
all like working it feels like we're working on a smaller and

01:14:20.188 --> 01:14:23.948
smaller canvas and all you

01:14:23.948 --> 01:14:26.948
know has this technology really delivered on the big

01:14:26.948 --> 01:14:29.828
promise of giving us that it's supposed.

01:14:29.828 --> 01:14:32.968
To just give us more leisure time this was

01:14:32.968 --> 01:14:36.788
the whole promise in the first place of the industrial revolution

01:14:36.788 --> 01:14:39.488
200 years ago all the all of this

01:14:39.488 --> 01:14:42.528
machinery and technology was going

01:14:42.528 --> 01:14:45.608
to be doing some of the heavy lifting for us so

01:14:45.608 --> 01:14:49.588
that we would then be free liberated to

01:14:49.588 --> 01:14:52.648
do all of the other things the humanities or the things that

01:14:52.648 --> 01:14:56.368
you know as individuals we thought were was

01:14:56.368 --> 01:14:59.488
more important and you know has it delivered on

01:14:59.488 --> 01:15:02.528
that i guess in some ways you could say it has

01:15:02.528 --> 01:15:06.908
it's certainly a mixed sword mixed what

01:15:06.908 --> 01:15:09.948
i say double double-edged sword a mixed

01:15:09.948 --> 01:15:15.648
blessing but in so many ways now it's it's looking like it's it's really hemming

01:15:15.648 --> 01:15:20.528
us in and we were maybe better better off without all of the these electronic

01:15:20.528 --> 01:15:27.928
gadgets and everything following us around yeah and i i guess you know So in my mind.

01:15:28.148 --> 01:15:36.848
The one thing that that comes up is AI and the fact that, you know, I have co-workers that,

01:15:37.248 --> 01:15:41.348
you know, can create images now where they've never really been artists.

01:15:41.348 --> 01:15:47.848
I used to be able to draw and I say used to because I knew I was pretty decent

01:15:47.848 --> 01:15:51.208
because that whatever that little art school that they would have,

01:15:51.308 --> 01:15:57.028
like the turtle or the pirate and they tell you to draw it. and I was able to draw pretty good.

01:15:57.208 --> 01:16:00.968
I actually got a couple of pretty good reviews, but I never enrolled in the school, right?

01:16:02.415 --> 01:16:06.355
You know, but AI now is making more people feel like they're artists,

01:16:06.595 --> 01:16:12.555
you know, as far as that's concerned, or even whether it's drawing or music or whatever.

01:16:13.435 --> 01:16:19.955
How does somebody that, you know, has done this not only for pleasure and aesthetics,

01:16:19.955 --> 01:16:24.955
but for a living, are you afraid?

01:16:24.955 --> 01:16:31.875
Are you concerned? What is the feeling that you have about AI in your world?

01:16:31.875 --> 01:16:34.395
Oh, there's artificial intelligence? Yes.

01:16:34.735 --> 01:16:37.975
I mean, again, this is a quintessential example, right?

01:16:38.535 --> 01:16:43.895
It's bringing up multiple emotions, you know, including, you know,

01:16:44.575 --> 01:16:49.295
definitely including fear and vulnerability, but also possibility.

01:16:49.295 --> 01:16:51.755
And some of it we're going to have to wait and see.

01:16:52.075 --> 01:16:57.295
It's probably going to have some very unexpected, unexpected effects.

01:16:57.875 --> 01:17:01.975
The thing that kills me is that just in the last year or two,

01:17:02.055 --> 01:17:06.435
there's been so much hype about it, one way, one direction or another.

01:17:06.655 --> 01:17:11.655
There's just all this buzz and hype about AI, AI, artificial intelligence.

01:17:11.655 --> 01:17:14.575
And i i just

01:17:14.575 --> 01:17:17.755
think that well for for a visual artist i feel

01:17:17.755 --> 01:17:21.395
like we're already reeling for

01:17:21.395 --> 01:17:26.715
the last couple of centuries we're reeling from this earlier technology technological

01:17:26.715 --> 01:17:33.875
breakthrough called photography that did a lot of visual artists out of a gig

01:17:33.875 --> 01:17:38.455
even though we don't like to admit it, that was a game-changer.

01:17:39.755 --> 01:17:44.295
Photography itself, never mind AI, and,

01:17:45.536 --> 01:17:49.776
But what everyone is admitting about AI, I mean, all the experts that are saying,

01:17:49.896 --> 01:17:54.576
yes, it potentially could be very dangerous. We just don't know. We don't know yet.

01:17:54.876 --> 01:17:59.036
But what they all agree upon is that it's definitely going to put millions of

01:17:59.036 --> 01:18:00.916
people out of work very soon.

01:18:01.916 --> 01:18:07.036
That's the consensus. Just like any other earlier forms of technology where

01:18:07.036 --> 01:18:13.476
they invent machines that replace your job, whatever it is.

01:18:13.476 --> 01:18:18.936
So I think that's the one thing I think we could be certain about is it's just

01:18:18.936 --> 01:18:23.936
another iteration of that technology coming along and putting a lot of people

01:18:23.936 --> 01:18:28.536
out of work and being just simply being put out of work wouldn't be the worst

01:18:28.536 --> 01:18:31.056
thing in the world, especially if it's some repetitive.

01:18:31.896 --> 01:18:35.036
Mind numbing job like most jobs are.

01:18:35.036 --> 01:18:39.296
But if that's the only way you're going to be able to make Benjamins and be

01:18:39.296 --> 01:18:44.836
able to pay off your landlord and be able to pay for food and everything like that,

01:18:45.016 --> 01:18:54.436
and your government isn't coming up with a plan B or a plan C to help you make it through the day,

01:18:54.696 --> 01:18:59.836
then yes, all of us are finding ourselves in a very precarious,

01:19:00.016 --> 01:19:03.376
very vulnerable situation indeed.

01:19:03.376 --> 01:19:08.636
Well, speaking about government, one of the things that always comes up,

01:19:08.676 --> 01:19:16.916
it seems like when a Republican administration is the National Endowment for the Arts or Humanities,

01:19:17.236 --> 01:19:21.696
you know, that's funded by federal dollars.

01:19:21.696 --> 01:19:26.636
And then you have the Corporation for Public Broadcasting that's funded in a

01:19:26.636 --> 01:19:27.996
great deal by federal dollars.

01:19:28.196 --> 01:19:34.696
And it always seems like the conservative viewpoint is to take money away from

01:19:34.696 --> 01:19:37.836
that for whatever reason they conjure up.

01:19:38.576 --> 01:19:45.036
And I just think about all of the all of the artists that are supported by the National Endowment.

01:19:46.400 --> 01:19:52.580
What would that mean to a lot of artists if that funding is cut?

01:19:52.880 --> 01:19:58.580
And what else do you think government should do to support the arts?

01:19:59.660 --> 01:20:04.320
Yes. Well, a national endowment for the arts, all of these things,

01:20:04.380 --> 01:20:09.680
of course, have been cut down and whittled down to where we're just kind of

01:20:09.680 --> 01:20:11.740
fighting up that crumbs now.

01:20:11.740 --> 01:20:16.000
There's not that much government support of the arts in this country.

01:20:16.200 --> 01:20:19.360
In other countries, even poverty-stricken countries in Asia,

01:20:19.640 --> 01:20:22.660
Mexico, they support their artists all throughout Europe.

01:20:22.840 --> 01:20:27.000
They believe supporting artists just because artists are workers and workers

01:20:27.000 --> 01:20:30.140
need to eat food just like everybody else.

01:20:30.140 --> 01:20:35.740
I think in our culture, there's this archetype of the starving artist,

01:20:36.000 --> 01:20:42.340
that the true artist doesn't really need to eat food or something like that, or deserves to eat food,

01:20:42.780 --> 01:20:47.540
should always have the begging bowl and should have to sing for their supper.

01:20:48.180 --> 01:20:52.940
I think we see it just even in elementary schools when there are cutbacks,

01:20:53.280 --> 01:20:55.540
economic cutbacks, when the government,

01:20:55.880 --> 01:20:58.720
whether it's the national government or the local government,

01:20:58.920 --> 01:21:04.380
says, I'm sorry, we're low on funds, as if we're supposed to believe that,

01:21:04.500 --> 01:21:07.580
that there's not enough wealth in this country.

01:21:08.580 --> 01:21:14.920
And so we're going to have to be making some cutbacks. What's the first thing that they cut back on?

01:21:15.640 --> 01:21:23.920
Right? It's never math or writing or even, you know, things like that. It's always the arts.

01:21:24.120 --> 01:21:29.880
That's always the first thing. So that's sending out a message to us when we're children.

01:21:30.280 --> 01:21:34.140
It's teaching us that, oh, the arts are not really that important.

01:21:34.860 --> 01:21:39.920
These are just these extra, this is just the gravy that we can give you.

01:21:40.120 --> 01:21:41.580
And then we could take it away.

01:21:41.820 --> 01:21:45.120
And, well, you don't really need these things to live.

01:21:46.446 --> 01:21:50.306
So I think that that's something that we're taught over and over again in this

01:21:50.306 --> 01:21:55.426
country from early childhood, that that could be – that's something that's – it's really an extra.

01:21:56.046 --> 01:21:59.866
It's like saying, you know, you don't really need, you know, sex.

01:22:00.086 --> 01:22:04.066
Oh, yeah, that feels good, but you don't really need sex to live,

01:22:04.246 --> 01:22:08.526
you know, as long as we give you enough food and water, you know.

01:22:08.526 --> 01:22:11.146
But, look, treating these things

01:22:11.146 --> 01:22:17.206
as if they're not just part of someone's life, part of a balanced life.

01:22:17.726 --> 01:22:21.486
And that art, when we talk about art, you know, the arts is really,

01:22:21.746 --> 01:22:24.906
these are just forms of communication.

01:22:25.526 --> 01:22:30.246
That's the way I see arts, whether it's visual art or writing or poetry.

01:22:30.326 --> 01:22:32.706
These are forms of communication.

01:22:34.706 --> 01:22:41.326
Of course, governments, whatever governments now or ancient governments or futuristic

01:22:41.326 --> 01:22:42.886
corporate governments,

01:22:43.066 --> 01:22:48.346
they're always going to be a little bit nervous about people having different

01:22:48.346 --> 01:22:55.186
languages or secret languages or means of communicating that the government can't control.

01:22:55.866 --> 01:23:04.886
But they always want to be able to control not only the media and what's said and what the –.

01:23:06.484 --> 01:23:10.084
Parameters are for speech, you know, when are you out of bounds,

01:23:10.184 --> 01:23:17.304
but they want to, they really want to control the entire format of it.

01:23:17.784 --> 01:23:23.964
And the arts, these are just kind of very unpredictable formats,

01:23:24.284 --> 01:23:26.704
means of communication that's really grassroots.

01:23:27.144 --> 01:23:31.964
I mean, people are always reinventing these art forms.

01:23:32.444 --> 01:23:37.004
Famously, they're usually reinvented from people on the bottom,

01:23:37.644 --> 01:23:42.944
people who don't really have any luxuries or anything like that.

01:23:43.104 --> 01:23:47.244
I mean, where did hip-hop came from? From the Bronx.

01:23:47.604 --> 01:23:53.084
You know, so many of these art forms, if we trace their lineage of music or

01:23:53.084 --> 01:23:56.384
visual art, it's out of desperation.

01:23:56.784 --> 01:24:06.864
People needed to to be creative and inventive out of necessity, as the phrase goes.

01:24:07.984 --> 01:24:11.164
Yeah. So I hope that answered the question a little bit.

01:24:11.364 --> 01:24:17.344
Well, yeah, I mean, it reminded me, I have, you know, I guess as a confession

01:24:17.344 --> 01:24:21.024
for those people who didn't follow my political career, but when I was in the

01:24:21.024 --> 01:24:22.984
legislature in Mississippi,

01:24:23.724 --> 01:24:26.504
we created a Mississippi school for the fine arts.

01:24:26.504 --> 01:24:31.604
I go on record as being the only legislator to vote against it.

01:24:32.184 --> 01:24:37.864
And my argument was what you were highlighting, the fact that we are taking

01:24:37.864 --> 01:24:40.704
arts away from the schools.

01:24:42.444 --> 01:24:45.444
And now we're going to create a school.

01:24:46.104 --> 01:24:49.764
Where are we going to get these kids from? How what is the criteria?

01:24:49.764 --> 01:24:54.544
It's like if you're literally have schools that don't even have a piano in the

01:24:54.544 --> 01:24:58.724
school, let alone a band or choir, where are these kids coming from?

01:24:58.804 --> 01:25:01.664
If they're going to be coming from these privileged households and all that

01:25:01.664 --> 01:25:05.244
stuff, that's going to deny the opportunity for people in my district.

01:25:06.431 --> 01:25:10.791
Be able to to qualify and go because if they don't have those same advantages

01:25:10.791 --> 01:25:18.171
right and and i challenged them and i said that if you commit to this then you

01:25:18.171 --> 01:25:22.691
are going to commit to this for a lifetime this is not well we're just going

01:25:22.691 --> 01:25:25.451
to do it for a little while and if we can afford it and,

01:25:26.011 --> 01:25:29.471
because i and i told him even though i may be the only one to vote against it,

01:25:30.011 --> 01:25:33.731
if and it you should have seen it was a spectacle you have people quoting shakespeare

01:25:33.731 --> 01:25:38.731
and you just imagine legislators doing Macbeth on the, on the floor.

01:25:39.151 --> 01:25:43.831
But if you're going to do this, then you're going to commit to it for life.

01:25:43.971 --> 01:25:49.891
And if you try to do it, I'll be the first one to challenge any kind of cuts to this program.

01:25:50.151 --> 01:25:55.111
And sure enough, two years after they passed it, they tried to pass a thing

01:25:55.111 --> 01:25:58.651
where, well, you know, we might need to cut back and all that stuff.

01:25:58.651 --> 01:26:00.731
And I got on the floor and I guilt tripped them.

01:26:00.811 --> 01:26:04.531
And I told him, I said, I told you, I told you, You always say that I'm crazy,

01:26:04.531 --> 01:26:08.471
but I told you that this was this day was going to happen.

01:26:08.611 --> 01:26:11.251
And I promised you that I was going to fight against it.

01:26:11.731 --> 01:26:12.971
And needless to say, they didn't

01:26:12.971 --> 01:26:16.771
get their money cut and they've been thriving on their own ever since.

01:26:16.771 --> 01:26:22.731
But that that's always that's always been the battle in that,

01:26:22.891 --> 01:26:30.371
you know, we just lose track of a commitment that we have to make sure that people.

01:26:31.571 --> 01:26:34.651
When they say they're going to support the arts, especially in government,

01:26:34.811 --> 01:26:38.151
that they follow through on that. So let me get to.

01:26:39.311 --> 01:26:41.511
My last question for you.

01:26:43.151 --> 01:26:46.851
What can individual citizens

01:26:46.851 --> 01:26:57.351
do to better support art well it's such a broad question i i i suppose i i would

01:26:57.351 --> 01:27:01.991
have to say that it really starts at home and in the communities and how we

01:27:01.991 --> 01:27:04.731
how we raise our children and.

01:27:06.098 --> 01:27:11.878
Just the kids in the neighborhood and making sure that they have places to go,

01:27:12.398 --> 01:27:17.718
you know, that they, aside from just a room with a big TV screen in it,

01:27:17.878 --> 01:27:19.918
that they have places that they can go.

01:27:19.978 --> 01:27:26.798
That's a quiet space that may have a shelf of books over here and some graphic novels over here.

01:27:26.798 --> 01:27:33.698
And oh, oh, look, there's some art art supplies, crayons and markers and pads

01:27:33.698 --> 01:27:36.578
of paper provided over here.

01:27:36.938 --> 01:27:42.778
And then I go against this wall is a there's a piano permanently in the room.

01:27:43.118 --> 01:27:48.378
There's a piano over here. Things like that. I think it's really as basic as that.

01:27:48.598 --> 01:27:52.798
The tools, just like you're providing tools for anything else.

01:27:54.038 --> 01:28:01.298
Art supplies. And then time and space to go along with it from,

01:28:01.298 --> 01:28:06.478
you know, from earliest childhood, from, you know, starting at the age of two or three.

01:28:06.818 --> 01:28:12.698
I mean, that's I feel fortunate in that regard that I was I was encouraged early

01:28:12.698 --> 01:28:19.258
on that my elders, as my mom from the Bronx, always made sure that I had some

01:28:19.258 --> 01:28:21.098
art supplies lying around.

01:28:21.878 --> 01:28:26.418
And oh and when i would do something she would she would encourage me to go

01:28:26.418 --> 01:28:32.678
oh that's uh look at that look at that it's rather abstract i can't really tell

01:28:32.678 --> 01:28:36.958
what the hell is going on in that picture but but i like it i like it let's

01:28:36.958 --> 01:28:41.018
see another one let's see you know let's see like that they're just the.

01:28:42.053 --> 01:28:45.453
Encouragement of the arts and the

01:28:45.453 --> 01:28:49.293
music and again all of the arts from childhood

01:28:49.293 --> 01:28:52.893
just within a family structure and

01:28:52.893 --> 01:28:55.933
then within a community and yes within schools within

01:28:55.933 --> 01:28:58.873
the classroom there should be a special art room

01:28:58.873 --> 01:29:01.833
a special music room if there's not then

01:29:01.833 --> 01:29:06.453
there's something wrong with this picture so where

01:29:06.453 --> 01:29:10.453
can people get naked city and

01:29:10.453 --> 01:29:14.393
yeah how can people get it and how can people reach out to you the new graphic

01:29:14.393 --> 01:29:20.173
novel if you like comics if you like oh and if you see the the new yorker magazine

01:29:20.173 --> 01:29:26.073
and you like my covers this is like a new yorker cover come to life and And

01:29:26.073 --> 01:29:28.253
it's long. It's not just a comic book.

01:29:28.413 --> 01:29:30.793
It's 336 pages.

01:29:31.133 --> 01:29:37.733
It's a long-form story. It's published by Dark Horse, which does lots of other

01:29:37.733 --> 01:29:40.273
graphic novels and things I'm sure people have seen.

01:29:40.713 --> 01:29:43.753
But it's available wherever books are sold.

01:29:43.773 --> 01:29:47.333
If they don't have it on your local bookstore, you just ask for it.

01:29:47.493 --> 01:29:49.713
Naked City, a graphic novel.

01:29:50.033 --> 01:29:54.953
They could order it. If you want to get a signed copy, you just get it right through my website.

01:29:55.633 --> 01:30:00.513
In fact, that's a good place to look. On my website, Drucker.com,

01:30:00.613 --> 01:30:04.613
I have a sneak preview of the book, Naked City.

01:30:04.793 --> 01:30:07.873
There's the first bunch of pages. You could just see what it looks like,

01:30:08.033 --> 01:30:11.933
what the art looks like and the word balloons sound like.

01:30:12.193 --> 01:30:16.073
And there's lots of, you know, hundreds of examples of my work.

01:30:16.313 --> 01:30:22.093
A lot of it will be quite familiar to the listeners because they've been seeing it over the years.

01:30:22.253 --> 01:30:26.473
Some of it just in the mainstream culture. But as you said at the beginning

01:30:26.473 --> 01:30:33.933
of this interview, Eric, I think people are familiar with my work from just unexpected places,

01:30:34.593 --> 01:30:38.693
CD covers, street posters, and things like that.

01:30:39.173 --> 01:30:44.673
They'll recognize the artwork and recognize the style, even if they don't recognize the name.

01:30:45.633 --> 01:30:53.773
The name, Brooker, that's it, D-R-O-O-K-E-R.com. and you could get it all through

01:30:53.773 --> 01:31:00.393
there or just from whatever bookstore that you may still have in your neighborhood.

01:31:01.033 --> 01:31:06.833
Yeah. And that's a whole nother topic for another day. So Eric Drucker, that's right.

01:31:07.233 --> 01:31:10.913
Eric, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to come on again.

01:31:11.533 --> 01:31:16.673
I was very, very riveted by the book.

01:31:16.833 --> 01:31:19.713
The artwork is awesome, but the

01:31:19.713 --> 01:31:24.653
storyline is very compelling too and that that's a that's a great combination

01:31:24.653 --> 01:31:29.553
for any graphic novel so i congratulate you on putting that together and i wish

01:31:29.553 --> 01:31:34.033
you much success on that and again thank you for coming on the podcast thanks

01:31:34.033 --> 01:31:38.373
so much for having me today all right guys and we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:31:40.560 --> 01:31:51.440
Music.

01:31:51.280 --> 01:31:57.400
And we are back. So I want to thank Elizabeth, Sillick, LaRue,

01:31:57.580 --> 01:32:01.760
and her husband, Yvonne, Wes, LaRue.

01:32:03.000 --> 01:32:08.640
I greatly appreciate them taking the time out to come on and talk about an issue

01:32:08.640 --> 01:32:11.940
that a lot of people were saying out loud.

01:32:11.940 --> 01:32:17.160
But I hope after the interview you understand that it's more than just a whim.

01:32:17.160 --> 01:32:23.120
If you seriously are thinking about leaving, there's some steps and you need

01:32:23.120 --> 01:32:24.980
to talk to some people in order to talk about.

01:32:25.460 --> 01:32:29.340
So Cillic Consulting Services is probably your best bet.

01:32:30.880 --> 01:32:37.720
And then Eric Drucker for coming on, you know, very insightful guy,

01:32:38.140 --> 01:32:40.940
very, very aware of what's going on in the world.

01:32:41.860 --> 01:32:47.320
And again, Naked City is a nice read.

01:32:47.500 --> 01:32:50.440
It'll make a nice gift for people because of the art.

01:32:50.880 --> 01:32:55.060
The story is, again, compelling, but the artwork is incredible.

01:32:55.880 --> 01:32:59.560
And I just like graphic novels. I do.

01:33:00.040 --> 01:33:06.860
So I'm really glad that he took the time out to come on this special episode.

01:33:06.860 --> 01:33:11.760
And the lady who helped make this

01:33:11.760 --> 01:33:18.200
interview with Eric and others said she couldn't record anything for me.

01:33:18.620 --> 01:33:25.740
She said she was a little unsavvy when it came to trying to record a message,

01:33:25.900 --> 01:33:28.160
but she wrote something. I definitely want to read it.

01:33:28.620 --> 01:33:32.940
And her name is Lissa Warren. And she's probably one of the,

01:33:33.120 --> 01:33:37.280
you know, I have about three people.

01:33:37.804 --> 01:33:45.664
Publicists that I work with to get their clients on Tiana Mignon.

01:33:46.324 --> 01:33:48.224
I was like my first one.

01:33:50.324 --> 01:33:56.544
Nanda Dissu and Nanda, Nanda, if I'm messing your name up, you know, just just hit me up.

01:33:56.684 --> 01:34:01.224
But Nanda Dissu, I've had a number of, you know, they were like my first two.

01:34:01.384 --> 01:34:06.504
But Lissa has been an incredible godsend to me as far as guests are concerned.

01:34:07.804 --> 01:34:10.624
And so she wanted, even though she couldn't record anything,

01:34:10.864 --> 01:34:13.524
she definitely wanted this message to be read.

01:34:13.824 --> 01:34:18.604
It says, congratulations, Eric, on your 300th show. Thank you for having on

01:34:18.604 --> 01:34:21.364
so many of my author clients over the past year.

01:34:21.684 --> 01:34:25.864
You've covered books on everything from the January 6th insurgents,

01:34:26.164 --> 01:34:30.444
mass incarceration and a climate crisis to the importance of rural voters,

01:34:30.844 --> 01:34:35.104
the Greensboro race massacre and what it's like to be Muslim today.

01:34:35.104 --> 01:34:39.744
I feel like there isn't an important topic that you can't handle.

01:34:40.044 --> 01:34:43.944
You don't shy away from anything and your interviews are always insightful,

01:34:44.324 --> 01:34:48.104
conversational and comfortable, even when the topics aren't.

01:34:48.204 --> 01:34:50.624
In short, you're the best. Keep at it.

01:34:51.264 --> 01:34:56.644
Thank you, Lisa, for that. And again, thank you for your help as well as my

01:34:56.644 --> 01:34:57.724
other publicist friends.

01:34:57.924 --> 01:35:00.824
And I also want to thank Ayo Sakai. Dr.

01:35:00.944 --> 01:35:07.504
Sakai has her own publishing company. And I've had a number of her authors come

01:35:07.504 --> 01:35:12.084
on the show too, Universal Right Publications, and so.

01:35:13.814 --> 01:35:19.854
I encourage y'all to support her as well and the authors in her stable.

01:35:21.214 --> 01:35:27.374
It is the only, well, I don't know if it's the only, but it's kind of like unique

01:35:27.374 --> 01:35:32.354
in that it's a black publishing company for academic writers.

01:35:33.014 --> 01:35:38.074
Basically, all y'all smart folks that got the PhDs and did all this incredible

01:35:38.074 --> 01:35:42.794
research throughout the years and stuff, created curriculums and all this fascinating thing.

01:35:42.794 --> 01:35:45.474
She is the publishing house for a

01:35:45.474 --> 01:35:49.874
lot of those authors so those ladies

01:35:49.874 --> 01:35:55.354
just those four alone have created an incredible stable of guests to make it

01:35:55.354 --> 01:36:02.734
look like i know what i'm doing and outside of my hustle and and in trying to

01:36:02.734 --> 01:36:06.814
secure people and now being part of the MBG Podcast Network.

01:36:07.494 --> 01:36:13.354
Shout out to Leonard Young for reaching out to me and giving me this opportunity

01:36:13.354 --> 01:36:17.514
and the podcast an opportunity for an even bigger audience.

01:36:18.634 --> 01:36:25.014
You know, it's been a fun ride to all of my friends I went to college with that

01:36:25.014 --> 01:36:32.054
subjected themselves to cover all the podcasts, people I've met in Mississippi politics,

01:36:32.434 --> 01:36:37.874
you know, and then just the new people who, you know,

01:36:37.974 --> 01:36:43.294
graciously accepted the invitation and came on for all those people that I've

01:36:43.294 --> 01:36:47.634
watched on CNN and MSNBC, for them to take the time out to,

01:36:48.574 --> 01:36:50.754
acknowledge that I exist and give

01:36:50.754 --> 01:36:54.474
me the respect due to be a guest on the podcast. I thank you all for that.

01:36:55.666 --> 01:37:02.266
It's been an incredible ride, and I'm hoping that the ride will continue for a while.

01:37:03.086 --> 01:37:08.286
It seems like we're going to have a lot of content based on the way the last election went.

01:37:08.926 --> 01:37:12.826
And 2026 is going to look crazy.

01:37:13.206 --> 01:37:17.406
2025, even though there's not that many races out there,

01:37:17.806 --> 01:37:23.166
just the first year of a new Trump administration, Just the first year to see

01:37:23.166 --> 01:37:27.466
how long the bromance between Elon Musk and Donald Trump continues,

01:37:27.806 --> 01:37:33.646
which one of these confirmation hearings succeeds.

01:37:34.826 --> 01:37:35.086
Right?

01:37:36.106 --> 01:37:40.846
Heck, we don't even know if we're going to have a government next week or as

01:37:40.846 --> 01:37:44.066
the podcast is coming on, you

01:37:44.066 --> 01:37:47.186
know, people go get their checks for Christmas. is hopefully they will.

01:37:47.746 --> 01:37:52.686
Hopefully by the time this airs, they've grown up and come up with a settlement,

01:37:52.686 --> 01:37:55.026
but there's going to be a lot to talk about.

01:37:56.066 --> 01:37:59.966
And, you know, so we're going to be that voice of reason.

01:38:00.346 --> 01:38:05.286
We're going to give people the opportunity to express themselves on whichever

01:38:05.286 --> 01:38:07.386
side of the coin they fall on.

01:38:08.546 --> 01:38:12.226
And we're going to still do our best to have challenging guests,

01:38:12.226 --> 01:38:19.326
You know, that may not be in the mainstream as far as the what most people look

01:38:19.326 --> 01:38:20.506
at in the political world.

01:38:20.806 --> 01:38:26.006
But again, they're doing the work or they're writing about topics and issues

01:38:26.006 --> 01:38:28.666
that elected officials should be discussing.

01:38:29.426 --> 01:38:35.386
But, you know, it's like I've already gotten some commitments from previous guests coming back on.

01:38:36.546 --> 01:38:38.486
And it's going to be timely.

01:38:39.706 --> 01:38:45.286
And I'm sure Alyssa is going to give me some more glides as well as Tiana and Nanda.

01:38:47.410 --> 01:38:52.150
This is, again, it's going to be a fun ride. Oh, Andrea McKinnon. Can't forget her.

01:38:52.810 --> 01:38:57.770
And I always want to lift up Tamina Watson. I've been trying to get Attorney

01:38:57.770 --> 01:39:00.670
Watson to come back on. I don't know how her schedule is.

01:39:01.330 --> 01:39:05.610
I expect that she's going to be busy because she's an immigration attorney.

01:39:05.610 --> 01:39:10.890
But I always want to lift her because she was the first guest ever.

01:39:10.890 --> 01:39:17.910
And then I want to thank Black Podcast Association, Black Podcasting Awards,

01:39:18.290 --> 01:39:22.930
you know, all those organizations have done a lot to help me get to this point, too.

01:39:24.110 --> 01:39:29.970
And, you know, this is not a retirement thing, but it's a milestone.

01:39:30.150 --> 01:39:32.990
And when you reach a milestone, you should acknowledge it. Right.

01:39:33.090 --> 01:39:36.530
And you should acknowledge the people that helps you get there.

01:39:36.530 --> 01:39:41.170
You know, my old college roommate who encouraged me to do the podcast,

01:39:42.110 --> 01:39:45.550
you know, who probably would sound better than me doing it.

01:39:45.690 --> 01:39:50.530
But, you know, he's always provided feedback for me. Thank you,

01:39:50.650 --> 01:39:52.230
Frat. Thank you, Vince, for doing that.

01:39:53.210 --> 01:39:58.130
You know, and my brothers, Alpha Phi Omega, I got to throw a shout out to them,

01:39:58.570 --> 01:39:59.750
brothers of the rising sun.

01:40:00.690 --> 01:40:10.010
And they, despite all of the challenges we've had, always have been encouraging,

01:40:10.010 --> 01:40:12.730
not just to me, but to each other.

01:40:13.570 --> 01:40:17.710
And yeah, so this is an important moment.

01:40:18.190 --> 01:40:24.490
And I am glad that I have been able to share this part of the journey with you all.

01:40:26.049 --> 01:40:29.989
My Chicago fam, the Lindblom folks, my family family.

01:40:30.929 --> 01:40:36.109
I have at least a couple of cousins that are really, really devout listeners. God bless you.

01:40:37.349 --> 01:40:41.029
Yeah, it's been cool. You know,

01:40:41.169 --> 01:40:44.389
it's like even though some of the issues we talk about and some of the stuff

01:40:44.389 --> 01:40:50.069
that we're dealing with is not cool, just the fact that we live in a day and

01:40:50.069 --> 01:40:55.049
a time where people like me can have a platform to talk about it,

01:40:55.349 --> 01:40:59.329
to flesh it out, and maybe come up with something a little more rational than

01:40:59.329 --> 01:41:02.109
what our quote-unquote elected leaders are doing.

01:41:03.229 --> 01:41:06.789
So, you know, we're going to keep rocking and rolling.

01:41:07.189 --> 01:41:12.969
This has been, and again, Grace, she, what a godsend she's been.

01:41:13.869 --> 01:41:19.009
Thank you for your professionalism. and the way that you just handle business.

01:41:19.469 --> 01:41:22.569
You know, it seems like for y'all it's just a two-minute segment,

01:41:22.569 --> 01:41:28.689
but there's a lot of work that she puts into it, and I'm not the only person she works with.

01:41:29.149 --> 01:41:35.709
So the fact that she's been loyal and very supportive means a lot.

01:41:35.989 --> 01:41:43.069
So anyway, I just want to remind you all that we're going to keep doing this

01:41:43.069 --> 01:41:44.609
and we're going to keep fighting the good fight.

01:41:46.449 --> 01:41:49.189
And everybody knows or most people that follow

01:41:49.189 --> 01:41:52.609
this know my political bent and my political philosophy

01:41:52.609 --> 01:41:58.809
on things and that regardless of political affiliation and all that I'm always

01:41:58.809 --> 01:42:03.129
going to look out for the uplift of black people first and when I say black

01:42:03.129 --> 01:42:08.229
people I mean the whole diaspora I'm not trying to parse whether you're from

01:42:08.229 --> 01:42:12.389
Detroit or you're whether you're from Accra or from Kingston.

01:42:13.009 --> 01:42:18.709
You know, black folks worldwide need to be uplifted, even with a whole continent of black folks.

01:42:19.329 --> 01:42:24.309
If you read some of the stuff I read on Reuters and the BBC and all that stuff,

01:42:24.529 --> 01:42:30.129
it's not a crystal stair for those brothers and sisters over there either. And.

01:42:31.927 --> 01:42:38.807
Just the reality of the world. But our job is to uplift black folks.

01:42:39.267 --> 01:42:45.367
My crusade is to uplift black folks. And so this podcast is an extension of that crusade.

01:42:45.807 --> 01:42:49.307
And I appreciate y'all joining me on that.

01:42:49.587 --> 01:42:55.467
But I say all that to say that for those people who don't agree with what I

01:42:55.467 --> 01:42:57.907
say, you are always welcome to come on.

01:42:58.127 --> 01:43:03.707
You are always welcome to voice your opinion and you'll be given a fair shot to express it.

01:43:04.267 --> 01:43:09.567
I always have the discretion to tear apart the argument or whatever,

01:43:09.987 --> 01:43:12.067
but not during your time.

01:43:12.247 --> 01:43:16.307
I believe in being polite. I believe in being fair.

01:43:17.647 --> 01:43:23.227
My advantage is I can record a whole segment anytime I want to,

01:43:23.287 --> 01:43:27.827
to challenge what you say, but I want to give you the opportunity to say it.

01:43:27.927 --> 01:43:32.167
So don't be afraid because there's been some folks I've reached out to and they've

01:43:32.167 --> 01:43:35.067
kind of like did the hymn and hall and whatever.

01:43:35.667 --> 01:43:39.507
Don't be afraid to come on because if I've reached out to you,

01:43:39.647 --> 01:43:44.067
it's because you've made a statement somewhere publicly that caught my attention.

01:43:44.947 --> 01:43:51.187
And I want you to come on the show and talk about it to the audience that I have.

01:43:52.107 --> 01:43:59.067
And you'll get 30 minutes. So, you know, give or take, usually a little more.

01:43:59.247 --> 01:44:03.787
So, you know, the invite is out there for anyone.

01:44:04.127 --> 01:44:09.387
But I really, like I said, I'm not really trying to get all the high profile people.

01:44:09.547 --> 01:44:15.647
I'm trying to get the folks that are doing the work to get people in positions

01:44:15.647 --> 01:44:19.727
to understand And there are some issues out there and there are some real people

01:44:19.727 --> 01:44:24.207
out there trying to do real work and they need some real help. Right.

01:44:25.087 --> 01:44:29.427
So anyway, that's my celebratory rant for today.

01:44:30.427 --> 01:44:35.867
Again, thank you all. 300 episodes is a milestone and I am honored and humbled

01:44:35.867 --> 01:44:37.847
that we've gotten that far.

01:44:38.647 --> 01:44:41.487
All right. Thank you all for listening. Until next time.

01:44:42.000 --> 01:45:29.667
Music.