Survival Is Resistance Featuring Dr. Caroline Heldman, Alia Dastagir, Melba Pearson and Dr. Tracy Pearson

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Music.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment where Eric Fleming, I am your host, Eric Fleming.

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And we've got a jam-packed episode today. Ladies and gentlemen,

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I have two incredible guests.

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And we're going to be talking about a lot of things, but the overall theme of

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this episode is that survival is resistance.

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And so one guest has dedicated her academic life, not only to political science,

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but specifically dealing with women's issues.

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And the other guest has written a book dealing with online harassment,

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and especially from the stories of women who have been victims of that and who

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have survived that, right?

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Because we're trying to better ourselves with language all the time.

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And one of the things And it's not just with women, but Black people as a whole

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to get out of this victim language and talk about survival, right?

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And I'll kind of dabble into that in the commentary. Yes, I got something to say.

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I'm probably going to have something to say after every episode,

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at the end of every episode, because there's so much going on.

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But I do want to touch on that a little bit.

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You know, as we close out. But again, this is going to be jam-packed show.

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And the other reason why it's going to be jam-packed is we're going to have

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another installment of your favorite law firm and my favorite law firm,

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the internet law firm or Pearson and Pearson.

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Yeah, we've got the lady lawyers back to talk about what's getting ready to

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happen in the Supreme Court.

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So, you know, I need y'all to keep listening.

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I need y'all to subscribe. You can go to patreon.com slash A Moment with Erik Fleming, do that.

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Or you can go to momenterik.com and do likewise.

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But, you know, I'm really, really excited about this show, and I hope that you

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will be too once you hear it. So let's go ahead and kick it off.

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And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Music.

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Thanks, Erik. A Utah man was arrested

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and confessed to the murder of conservative activist Charlie Kirk.

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ABC is pulling Jimmy Kimmel Live off the air indefinitely after the host's remark

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about the death of Charlie Kirk drew criticism from the FCC chair.

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The Federal Reserve lowered interest rates for the first time since December,

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with Chair Jerome Powell citing a weakening labor market, particularly for Black people.

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The Congressional Black Caucus is calling for a federal investigation into a

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series of bomb threats made against several historically black colleges and universities.

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Delta State University officials confirmed that the body of a student,

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Demar Travian-Reed, was found hanging from a tree on campus,

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with police stating there was no evidence of foul play at this time.

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President Donald Trump announced his plans to send National Guard troops to

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Memphis, Tennessee, to combat the city's high crime rate.

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An ICE agent in the Chicago area shot and killed Silverio Villegas Gonzalez

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after he allegedly drove his car at officers during an attempted arrest.

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A New York judge dismissed two terrorism-related charges against Luigi Mangione

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in the killing of health insurance executive Brian Thompson,

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but he still faces other criminal counts.

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Former Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro was sentenced to 27 years in prison

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for plotting a coup to stay in power after his 2022 election loss.

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President Trump has filed a $15 billion defamation lawsuit against The New York

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Times and Penguin Random House.

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Maureen Comey, the daughter of former FBI Director James Comey,

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is suing the Trump administration over her abrupt firing as federal prosecutor.

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And Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Willis has been disqualified from

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prosecuting the election interference case against President Trump after the

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Georgia Supreme Court declined her appeal.

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I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for

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my guest, Dr. Caroline Heldman.

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Dr. Caroline Heldman is a political scientist and chair of the Gender,

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Women, and Sexuality Studies program at Occidental College in Los Angeles.

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She is also co-founder of Stand With Survivors and a political commentator for CNN and CBS.

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Dr. Heldman earned her PhD from Rutgers University and a certificate in executive

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leadership from the Harvard Business School.

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She has published eight books, including Gender, Power, and Politics.

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The Fight for Gender Equality in the United States, and that's been through

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Oxford University Press.

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Her work has been featured in numerous

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documentaries, including Misrepresentation and The Mask You Live In.

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She co-founded the New Orleans Women's Shelter, the Lower Knife World Living

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Museum, End Rape on Campus, Faculty Against Rape, and led the campaign that

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overturned the time limit on prosecuting rape in California.

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She is the board president of the TEP Center, the first civil rights museum

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in New Orleans, and the chair of the board of Alterus Institute,

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a nonprofit fighting for a stronger democracy.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Dr. Caroline Heldman.

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Music.

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All right, Dr. Caroline Heldman, how you doing, ma'am? You doing good?

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I'm doing great. How are you, Erik? I'm doing fine. I'm really,

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really honored that you accepted my invitation to come on. And,

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you know, I tell people all the time that my objective is to get people doing

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the work and all that stuff.

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But the main criteria is I get the privilege of talking to people that are smarter than me.

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And so I and it's a it's a weekly thing.

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So I just I'm honored that I have this platform where I can talk to these these intelligent people.

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So what I normally try to do at the beginning is what we call my icebreaker face.

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So the first icebreaker is a quote. So I want you to give me a response to this quote.

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Women candidates must be properly masculine to be seen as viable leaders.

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But the moment they project this, they're penalized by many people for violating

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traditional norms of femininity.

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They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. And so far,

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no woman has figured out how to crack the code on this impossible standard.

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Tell me, talk to me about that quote. Well, Erik, that's the double bind of

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women's leadership, which I think is especially pronounced for the presidency.

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What strikes me is, you know, that damned if you do and damned if you don't.

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So because of the ways in which we conceptualize leadership and especially presidential

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leadership, which is always a contest of manhood, even when women aren't in

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the race, gender is always a component. it.

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The moment at which a woman, you know, projects proper masculinity in order

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to be seen as a viable presidential contender, in that moment,

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she will also be seen as violating norms of femininity, and that will be held against her.

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So it's kind of this impossible dance that so far no woman has been able to do.

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I will say that different candidates have taken different tacks,

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and we've had many, many women run for the presidency.

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We've had 21 women run quite seriously, and we've had over 100 women throw their

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name in the hat, but none of them have, as that quote puts it, cracked the code.

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I think it's interesting to look at Hillary Clinton, who was kind of straddling

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the feminine masculine line kind of right down the middle, right?

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So she's wearing pantsuits, but she's wearing pearls.

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So she's doing a little straddle, whereas someone like Sarah Palin,

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if you remember when she ran for the vice presidency,

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was doing kind of, you know, hyper-feminine with the clothing and the makeup

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that she was wearing, and then hyper-masculine with these photos of her,

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you know, shooting a moose and acting quite tough.

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And I find it fascinating that in that election, they were both beaten up in very gendered terms.

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So even though one was trying to approach this double bind of women's leadership

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by being hyper-masculine and hyper-feminine, and the other was kind of doing

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more in the middle, being a little bit masculine and a little bit feminine,

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both of them were really beaten up in the press.

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And Sarah Palin in particular was pornified. So what we have seen is that to

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date, women have not been able to overcome this double bind.

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And I would say that Kamala Harris had the double bind plus.

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She faced misogynoir, right, which is racism and sexism intersectionally aimed

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at Black women. So she had an additional kind of barrier to gaining the presidency

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because she wasn't seen as a viable contender in the eyes of millions of Americans.

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Yeah. All right. So...

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I'm going to put a pin on a couple of things that you said in there.

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I think some of my questions will fall into part of the response you had.

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The next icebreaker is called 20 questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20. Let's do number 13. Okay.

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Do you think there is such a thing as unbiased news or media and why?

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So no, there's no such thing as something that lacks a bias because just the

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mere fact that you're covering a story, even if you might be covering it right

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down the center in a way that's removed,

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the mere fact that you're even choosing to cover a particular story is already

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to form a bias in the sense that, you know, as media scholars,

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we call it agenda setting where you've made a choice about what is important to talk about.

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And then other biases come in in terms of priming and framing.

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And priming means what aspects of the story you tend to focus on,

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and then framing are the stories, like the underlying stories that you tell about it.

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And so no, no unbiased media.

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Although I don't think my goal as someone who wants good media.

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Meaning informative, useful media, I don't think the goal is a lack of bias.

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I think the goal is a focus on objectivity through data and a focus on empathy,

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which allows us to look at the kind of underlying factors driving a particular issue.

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I think that much of what we have today, especially if we're talking like Gateway

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Pundit and Breitbart and, of course, the old school Fox News, that's propaganda.

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So that is media that is intentionally aimed to persuade people of a position

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instead of media that is aimed at telling the truth or even attempting to be objective.

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And so I think it's good to be aware and critical and not consume propaganda,

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but even media that tries to be objective, I think, you know, it's a great pursuit.

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It's not one we can ever truly accomplish and maybe that shouldn't be the goal.

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Yeah. All right, so...

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You know, one of the things, there's some people I kind of want to know why, right?

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So my question to you is, why did you decide, or what made you decide,

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to dedicate your academic career to women's studies and gender politics?

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Well, I study systems of power, and so I currently hold a position where I'm

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the chair of Gender, Women, and Sexuality Studies.

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But as a political scientist, I really focus on gender, race,

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ability, sexuality, body size, class, and their intersections.

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So, for example, I do a lot of work around fat justice, which I believe is a

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form of discrimination that hasn't been talked about enough.

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I do a lot of racial justice work.

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I push back as often as I can against ageism, and I focus a lot on queer politics as well.

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All of this to say, once you understand how one system of power works and how

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it intersects with other systems of power and oppression, it's really hard to just focus on one.

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I'm definitely very centered around survivor justice, which tends to involve

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women, although not exclusively.

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And I'll just add that, you know, men who are survivors of sexual violence and

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domestic violence have an additional layer of silencing.

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And so I think it's important to note that not all survivors are women.

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But my work is really aimed at addressing intersectional systems of power and

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trying to, you know, you can't take down one without taking down the intersections as well.

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So it really is much more of a kind of cohesive fight against multiple systems of oppression.

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So do you feel that survival from sexual harassment or sexual assault is a form of resistance?

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I do, Eric. That's a great way of putting it. merely talking about yourself

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as a survivor rather than a victim.

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Obviously, people can choose whatever language fits for them,

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but it's a very important kind of signal to say, look, you didn't kill me.

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You didn't stop me. I'm still here.

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Whatever this injury is that you did to me, I'm surviving it.

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So, yeah, I think that language is really important.

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Yeah. All right. And talking about intersectionality, in one of your many books,

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because you've written at least 10, if I'm correct.

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I'm at 11, Erik. I'm at 11. Okay. All right. 11. Okay.

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You highlight Sojourner Truth to discuss the historical importance of intersectionality

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between race and gender in America.

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Why do you think it's still hard for activists, scholars, and even politicians,

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to fully commit to intersectionality in the 21st century?

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Well, I see a silver lining in the push against DEI, right, diversity, equity, and inclusion.

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I see a silver lining pushing back against critical race theory and against

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intersectionality, which is when multiple marginalized identities overlap and

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create new and unique and more intense experiences of oppression.

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And that is that we only see these backlashes when there's actually been a shift

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in the social order. And so you always get a backlash whenever you are attempting

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to overthrow or shift power.

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And what this tells us, you know, the big push against DEI, the big push against

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all of these various programs is that they've been effective,

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at least to a certain extent.

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Now, I will say we have a long way to go when it comes to racial justice,

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when it comes to gender justice, etc.

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But they wouldn't be trying to outlaw and ban ideas if those ideas hadn't produced

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some serious shift in the social order.

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And we see evidence of this shift, right? We do see greater inclusion in terms

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of social, political, and economic gains in society for traditionally marginalized people.

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And so I read this as a moment where the backlash is upon us,

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where ideas, a simple thing like an analytic tool of intersectionality that

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says, look, the world's complicated, here's a tool to understand it.

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Something like that is so offensive that it gets banned. It tells me that we

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are on the right path. Let's put it that way.

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I think this fight is long from over.

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I don't think you can ban ideas, especially when they're really good ideas like

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intersectionality that help us get clarity on some really complex topics. Yeah.

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It's been nearly 20 years since the Me Too movement began.

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Do you think the Me Too movement has changed American political culture to the

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point where we celebrate a court victory for E.

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Jean Carroll and have true empathies for survivors of the trafficking of Jeffrey Epstein?

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Or are we not quite there yet?

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Well, I think the Me Too movement did accomplish some things.

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I don't think that it was a big shift in our culture.

00:18:53.864 --> 00:18:56.964
When I look at social movements as somebody who studies, you know,

00:18:57.044 --> 00:18:59.304
the civil rights movement, who studies the gay rights movement,

00:18:59.444 --> 00:19:02.224
and movements for liberation over time, especially in the U.S.,

00:19:02.224 --> 00:19:05.964
I see that social movements have two primary phases.

00:19:06.164 --> 00:19:10.184
The first is to raise awareness about an issue and put it on the agenda,

00:19:10.404 --> 00:19:14.524
which, you know, the Me Too movement absolutely did that.

00:19:14.664 --> 00:19:19.284
And the second part is to put in mechanisms of accountability so that you can

00:19:19.284 --> 00:19:20.264
actually address the issue.

00:19:20.424 --> 00:19:23.424
That second part did not happen. We passed some state laws.

00:19:23.564 --> 00:19:27.684
We opened some look-back windows so that survivors could come forward even if

00:19:27.684 --> 00:19:32.124
they were timed out under their particular state's time limit on prosecuting rape.

00:19:32.304 --> 00:19:35.704
But at the end of the day, we haven't seen systemic change.

00:19:35.844 --> 00:19:41.724
We haven't seen across the board new policies that will allow us to address sexual violence.

00:19:42.414 --> 00:19:45.914
So in that regard, I think, you know, and the movements kind of fizzled and

00:19:45.914 --> 00:19:48.914
faded, I don't think we've accomplished that.

00:19:49.094 --> 00:19:52.994
And I just want to note, anytime I'm talking about the Me Too movement,

00:19:53.334 --> 00:19:58.994
I like to go back in time 130 years to just briefly talk about a history that's been erased.

00:19:59.814 --> 00:20:04.634
Black women were the first women in the United States to organize a concerted

00:20:04.634 --> 00:20:06.774
effort against sexual violence when Ida B.

00:20:06.874 --> 00:20:11.694
Wells and her colleagues got together post-Civil War and pushed back against

00:20:11.694 --> 00:20:15.894
the systemic rape of Black women that was being used as a tool of terror by

00:20:15.894 --> 00:20:18.374
vigilantes in the state once slavery fell.

00:20:18.374 --> 00:20:25.454
We then see another peak with Black women leading up to the civil rights movement.

00:20:25.634 --> 00:20:29.974
In fact, we know Rosa Parks for her heroics in the civil rights movement.

00:20:30.154 --> 00:20:34.194
But what folks may not know is that 10 years prior to that, she was leading

00:20:34.194 --> 00:20:40.374
anti-rape efforts for the NAACP and traveling the country and investigating

00:20:40.374 --> 00:20:42.754
and pushing back against sexual violence.

00:20:42.754 --> 00:20:46.894
And then we see the third big peak with the rise of, you know,

00:20:46.914 --> 00:20:49.954
that is 60s and the 70s and the second wave of the feminist movement,

00:20:49.954 --> 00:20:54.694
where we see the opening of rape crisis centers.

00:20:54.934 --> 00:21:00.734
And if you actually Google it online, you go and Google anti-sexual violence

00:21:00.734 --> 00:21:04.834
work, it will put it at the place where white women enter the conversation.

00:21:04.834 --> 00:21:09.394
But I think it's really important to not erase that history of Black women.

00:21:09.674 --> 00:21:13.134
And also, in the first peak, Sarah Winnemucca was a Native American woman who

00:21:13.134 --> 00:21:16.874
was traveling the country and raising awareness about the epidemic of sexual

00:21:16.874 --> 00:21:18.274
violence against Native women.

00:21:18.274 --> 00:21:22.434
So when we, you know, I was one of the early architects of the campus anti-right

00:21:22.434 --> 00:21:25.074
movement that rolls into the Me Too movement in 2017.

00:21:25.574 --> 00:21:32.154
And I can tell you we were standing on the shoulders of great women whose efforts

00:21:32.154 --> 00:21:33.294
have been erased, right?

00:21:33.454 --> 00:21:36.854
Because oftentimes the efforts of women of color get erased from history.

00:21:37.734 --> 00:21:41.434
What do you think is the biggest impediment to the accountability piece?

00:21:42.289 --> 00:21:48.149
I think the biggest impediment to the accountability piece is that there are

00:21:48.149 --> 00:21:52.429
powerful men who maintain systems, who don't want to give up that power and

00:21:52.429 --> 00:21:53.669
don't want to be held accountable.

00:21:54.169 --> 00:21:59.609
Who essentially the people in power are not going to relinquish that power.

00:21:59.609 --> 00:22:03.709
If you look at who the serial perpetrators are, many of these are men with a

00:22:03.709 --> 00:22:06.349
lot of prestige, a lot of resources.

00:22:06.749 --> 00:22:11.049
I think, you know, the Jeffrey Epstein case is a perfect example where you have,

00:22:11.169 --> 00:22:15.049
you know, the President of the United States mentioned in the Epstein files, as we know.

00:22:15.229 --> 00:22:18.529
You have former President Bill Clinton mentioned in the Epstein files.

00:22:18.529 --> 00:22:22.289
This is a trafficker, Jeffrey Epstein, who was raping little girls.

00:22:22.429 --> 00:22:25.689
And he was able to do this for decades, even though it was an open secret,

00:22:25.689 --> 00:22:29.729
as we now know from his 50th birthday book.

00:22:29.929 --> 00:22:34.069
We know that people were just joking about his, you know, essentially trafficking

00:22:34.069 --> 00:22:38.629
in children. And the fact that he was never held accountable,

00:22:38.889 --> 00:22:40.669
maybe he would have been, but he wasn't for decades.

00:22:40.869 --> 00:22:46.009
And now other famous, powerful men in his circle who may or may not have been

00:22:46.009 --> 00:22:48.129
a part of this are also not being held accountable.

00:22:48.129 --> 00:22:54.289
I think it's just a really prominent example of what's happening every day behind the scenes,

00:22:54.449 --> 00:22:59.429
whether it's the music industry using NDAs, so non-disclosure agreements to

00:22:59.429 --> 00:23:04.589
silence the problem and settling lawsuits and paying out lots of money,

00:23:04.649 --> 00:23:08.269
or it's Hollywood doing that, or it's the tech industry, you name it.

00:23:08.349 --> 00:23:12.569
There are these powerful men in positions of authority who are covering up this

00:23:12.569 --> 00:23:15.669
issue, and they have for at least a century. Yeah.

00:23:16.389 --> 00:23:21.649
I know you're not a psychologist, but I, you know, I just,

00:23:21.929 --> 00:23:30.149
it's an interesting dynamic to me about us men that, you know,

00:23:30.329 --> 00:23:32.429
we attain a certain level of power.

00:23:33.349 --> 00:23:41.729
We get into a position where we want to expand that into doing whatever we want,

00:23:41.829 --> 00:23:45.649
whether it's women, whether it's, you know, whatever.

00:23:46.109 --> 00:23:51.749
And I just, you know, the old adage is that power corrupts, but I've always

00:23:51.749 --> 00:24:00.849
been curious as to find out why, you know, our interaction with women is part of the corruption.

00:24:02.157 --> 00:24:05.917
Well, there's been some interesting research lately by a PhD,

00:24:06.077 --> 00:24:10.717
Peggy Orenstein, who looks at what is happening with young people in rape.

00:24:10.777 --> 00:24:13.497
And I think it can be generalized across the age groups.

00:24:13.697 --> 00:24:17.537
And she finds that young men are actually pretty well aware of boundaries.

00:24:17.637 --> 00:24:20.417
They just don't believe that they have to respect it.

00:24:20.537 --> 00:24:24.677
And I think young boys, especially those who are being indoctrinated through

00:24:24.677 --> 00:24:27.757
the manosphere, which is this white supremacist,

00:24:27.997 --> 00:24:32.417
misogynistic space on the Internet, that many of them are getting the message

00:24:32.417 --> 00:24:36.157
that they can act with impunity, whether it's, you know,

00:24:36.637 --> 00:24:40.517
engaging in acts of violence or engaging in sexual violence.

00:24:41.117 --> 00:24:45.217
And so at the end of the day, they know what they're doing is wrong. We know this from data.

00:24:45.437 --> 00:24:49.497
In fact, it's about one in three college men say they would rape if they knew

00:24:49.497 --> 00:24:51.897
they could get away with it, which is a startling statistic.

00:24:52.417 --> 00:24:56.117
At the end of the day, they don't feel as though they, you know,

00:24:56.217 --> 00:24:59.857
they don't, they feel entitled, right, to women as bodies.

00:25:00.137 --> 00:25:04.677
And I think part of this is the fact that we objectify women.

00:25:04.877 --> 00:25:07.777
We normalize the objectification of women in our culture.

00:25:08.037 --> 00:25:12.397
We define women by what they look like aesthetically in their bodies,

00:25:12.417 --> 00:25:14.237
how appealing they are as sex objects.

00:25:14.417 --> 00:25:17.657
So it doesn't matter whatever else a woman accomplishes in our life.

00:25:18.057 --> 00:25:23.177
If she's not a valuable sex object, she will not have the value that she should

00:25:23.177 --> 00:25:27.557
in our culture. So we raise our little girls to believe their bodies and their

00:25:27.557 --> 00:25:30.517
appearance are the most important things about them.

00:25:30.637 --> 00:25:34.977
And then we raise little boys to believe that, you know, heterosexual little

00:25:34.977 --> 00:25:38.097
boys to believe that women exist for them.

00:25:38.217 --> 00:25:43.097
And so it's a terrible social recipe. And one we could shift tomorrow.

00:25:43.397 --> 00:25:46.617
All we would have to do is fully humanize women and stop objectifying them and

00:25:46.617 --> 00:25:52.357
turning them into sex objects and enforce this idea that men are not entitled

00:25:52.357 --> 00:25:58.177
to women, to women's bodies without their permission and to women as bodies as sex objects.

00:25:58.617 --> 00:26:02.137
Yeah, I'm going to change the subject because you scared me with that statistic.

00:26:02.317 --> 00:26:03.377
You said one out of three.

00:26:04.219 --> 00:26:09.479
One out of three men would rape if they knew they would not get caught or punished.

00:26:09.879 --> 00:26:15.139
And Peggy Orenstein, that is the woman that, is she still with us as far as

00:26:15.139 --> 00:26:16.559
like on this side of the realm?

00:26:17.099 --> 00:26:22.079
She sure is. Because I'm going to try to get her on the podcast so I can dive

00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:24.439
into that a little more. Thank you. Thank you for that.

00:26:25.239 --> 00:26:30.639
Let's get back into the political thing, especially about feminism.

00:26:30.639 --> 00:26:36.619
Because you have documented that there are 13 types of feminism.

00:26:36.939 --> 00:26:43.179
I want to focus on the TERFs. So explain to the listeners what that acronym

00:26:43.179 --> 00:26:47.059
means and what impact are they having in American politics?

00:26:47.999 --> 00:26:54.879
So TERFs are trans-exclusionary radical feminists. They have very little influence in U.S.

00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:59.119
Politics because they haven't taken hold here, but they have much more influence in U.K.

00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:07.819
Politics. And TERFs are a very small but vocal strain of radical feminists who

00:27:07.819 --> 00:27:12.139
believe that transgender women should not be considered women,

00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:17.979
should not be allowed to use the same restrooms or be in the same domestic violence

00:27:17.979 --> 00:27:21.159
shelters or in the same prisons, as it were.

00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:26.199
And so it's essentially feminists who are engaging in anti-trans sentiment.

00:27:26.199 --> 00:27:31.239
It's been pretty roundly criticized by most feminists, although there are,

00:27:31.239 --> 00:27:38.959
you know, a few kind of high-profile women like, you know, the Harry Potter author who, J.K.

00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:41.919
Rowling, who a lot of folks are now boycotting.

00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:49.719
But in the UK, they have been able to push legislation that essentially marginalizes trans people.

00:27:50.607 --> 00:27:53.747
Yeah, because I know Theresa May, when she was the prime minister,

00:27:54.147 --> 00:28:00.047
she introduced something to try to address the transgender population.

00:28:01.027 --> 00:28:04.607
And, you know, Rowling and a whole bunch of other folks gave her a whole lot

00:28:04.607 --> 00:28:06.047
of grief and pushback on it.

00:28:06.107 --> 00:28:09.447
And I can't remember, did that get repealed or what the deal was?

00:28:09.527 --> 00:28:13.287
But I know she would fall in a category.

00:28:13.487 --> 00:28:16.567
What about, when I'm talking about Rowling, we're falling in a category.

00:28:16.727 --> 00:28:21.347
What about Nancy Mace? Would she be considered a TERF? Absolutely.

00:28:21.787 --> 00:28:24.567
In fact, she talks about being a survivor of sexual violence,

00:28:24.587 --> 00:28:27.807
and while she doesn't directly invoke calling herself a feminist,

00:28:27.967 --> 00:28:32.447
so maybe she's just anti-trans, but it's that same sort of sentiment.

00:28:32.747 --> 00:28:40.447
And you are absolutely right that Theresa May and the TERF lobby in the UK did

00:28:40.447 --> 00:28:44.747
rule that trans women are not women in the eyes of the law,

00:28:44.967 --> 00:28:50.027
which will now be the basis for a lot of anti-trans legislation moving forward.

00:28:50.027 --> 00:28:57.107
But Nancy Mace is, you know, the Exhibit A in anti-trans hatred in the United States.

00:28:57.327 --> 00:29:02.387
She uses slurs to describe transgender folks.

00:29:02.487 --> 00:29:08.447
She routinely attempts to smear them as being perpetrators and criminals.

00:29:08.807 --> 00:29:14.727
And so, yeah, she embodies kind of the turf ethic here in the United States. Yeah.

00:29:15.187 --> 00:29:21.467
I mean, you know, if you follow her career, you would think that she was a feminist

00:29:21.467 --> 00:29:25.887
in the sense that, you know, she was the first woman to graduate from the Citadel.

00:29:26.387 --> 00:29:32.147
She's been very, very vocal about women's rights up until the transformation.

00:29:32.147 --> 00:29:33.667
Whenever that happened.

00:29:33.847 --> 00:29:38.007
It was somewhere within the Trump first administration, whatever.

00:29:38.567 --> 00:29:42.587
But up until that point, she was considered like a champion.

00:29:42.887 --> 00:29:48.067
And then, of course, this revised version of her now that wants to be governor

00:29:48.067 --> 00:29:52.487
of South Carolina, you know, now all of a sudden it's like she's got a problem

00:29:52.487 --> 00:29:53.887
with Representative McBride.

00:29:54.147 --> 00:29:58.567
And, you know, it was like the first two, three weeks of the session,

00:29:58.567 --> 00:30:03.447
And it was it was all about her and her war against the transgender community.

00:30:03.687 --> 00:30:09.687
So I don't know. I just you know, when I saw that, I said, huh.

00:30:10.407 --> 00:30:13.947
So Doc is kind of categorized her.

00:30:14.127 --> 00:30:18.887
And there's actually a group of women that kind of like feel that transgender

00:30:18.887 --> 00:30:21.007
women are a threat to women.

00:30:22.269 --> 00:30:23.929
Whether or not, Erik, I am here

00:30:23.929 --> 00:30:28.929
to report trans women are not a threat to women. Trans women are women.

00:30:29.589 --> 00:30:36.629
It's fascinating to me to see this sort of, to see the hatred and discrimination

00:30:36.629 --> 00:30:40.309
that feminism pushes against to then be weaponized by certain feminists.

00:30:40.629 --> 00:30:46.849
It's, we're talking about folks who are, I mean, the trans community is really

00:30:46.849 --> 00:30:50.389
diverse. But I think we can all accept that gender is a performance.

00:30:50.389 --> 00:30:52.289
This is, you know, it's a social construct.

00:30:52.569 --> 00:30:55.609
There are many folks who also, you know, look at sex and gender,

00:30:55.769 --> 00:30:59.869
sex and sexuality, all three as being socially constructed, meaning that they

00:30:59.869 --> 00:31:02.669
don't exist in nature, but we decide what the rules are.

00:31:02.789 --> 00:31:06.309
And we've decided that they're binary and that they're natural and biological,

00:31:06.309 --> 00:31:10.229
which, you know, no self-respecting biologists would embrace.

00:31:10.369 --> 00:31:15.109
Right. We see these as social constructions. And so if gender is socially constructed,

00:31:15.569 --> 00:31:20.449
then why would feminists be so afraid of people who choose to construct their

00:31:20.449 --> 00:31:22.449
gender in ways that don't align with the binary?

00:31:22.769 --> 00:31:27.989
I find it to be kind of fascinating hypocrisy in the sense, not to get too theoretical,

00:31:28.229 --> 00:31:34.009
but the binary is what has driven much of patriarchy, meaning the rule of men, for so long.

00:31:34.009 --> 00:31:38.989
So I view transgender folks, whether intentional or not, as being on the front

00:31:38.989 --> 00:31:43.969
lines of challenging the binary, which I think is so crucial to,

00:31:43.969 --> 00:31:47.249
you know, getting rid of our big system of power when it comes to gender,

00:31:47.349 --> 00:31:48.669
which is patriarchy. Yeah.

00:31:49.169 --> 00:31:53.429
Yeah. And then, you know, another name that always comes up, Riley Gaines.

00:31:53.669 --> 00:31:57.469
I call her the biggest loser in American sports.

00:31:58.189 --> 00:32:05.589
You know, you want to blame a transgender woman for your loss in a swim meet and you finish fifth.

00:32:05.809 --> 00:32:13.329
And really, if it wasn't for a tie, you would be sixth in that race.

00:32:13.329 --> 00:32:18.509
There were four other women that were way better than you, but you want to blame

00:32:18.509 --> 00:32:21.709
this one particular woman. And it just, yeah.

00:32:22.009 --> 00:32:26.749
So anyway, enough about that. Let me get into some other women I'm a little shaky about.

00:32:28.749 --> 00:32:34.429
What category of feminism do Erika Kirk or Katie Miller fall under?

00:32:34.769 --> 00:32:39.409
Would they be considered like the modern day Phyllis Schlafly's?

00:32:40.408 --> 00:32:46.308
Yeah, you know, the sort of trad wife, and I think Erika Kirk and certainly

00:32:46.308 --> 00:32:49.488
Stephen Miller's, like Katie Miller, right, Stephen Miller's spouse,

00:32:49.528 --> 00:32:54.148
and he's an open white supremacist and very traditional gender role person.

00:32:54.148 --> 00:32:58.028
And these trad wife and trad wife adjacent women are not feminists, right?

00:32:58.368 --> 00:33:02.808
If feminism—so whether we view feminism as the one in the equality,

00:33:03.148 --> 00:33:06.748
political, social, and economic equality of the sexes, which is the kind of

00:33:06.748 --> 00:33:11.108
standard definition, or more bell hooks definition of feminism,

00:33:11.328 --> 00:33:16.688
which is getting rid of the power over oppression of all forms, including gender.

00:33:17.608 --> 00:33:21.648
Neither Erika Kirk or Katie Miller would fit under the category of feminists.

00:33:21.648 --> 00:33:27.648
They are pushing for a very traditional, conventional way of approaching gender.

00:33:27.848 --> 00:33:32.348
So they're going back in time to the 1950s when the government was,

00:33:32.408 --> 00:33:36.468
you know, promoting rigid gender roles in order to get women back in the home.

00:33:36.468 --> 00:33:41.128
And what we know is that, you know, choice for women is great.

00:33:41.128 --> 00:33:45.828
And I think choice becomes really questionable when you have an entire social

00:33:45.828 --> 00:33:51.328
media ecosystem around trad wives that is promoting this idea that women should

00:33:51.328 --> 00:33:53.568
be in the home and in the domestic sphere only.

00:33:53.888 --> 00:34:00.008
I just find it to be, you know, a kind of laughable throwback if it wasn't playing

00:34:00.008 --> 00:34:03.268
so well with young impressionable women and young impressionable men.

00:34:03.988 --> 00:34:09.208
Do you do you think this uh you can tell i'm kind of spitballing a little bit

00:34:09.208 --> 00:34:15.928
do you think this this recent tragedy is going to have any kind of impact on

00:34:15.928 --> 00:34:19.088
this trad wife movement because.

00:34:20.428 --> 00:34:26.268
Now Erika is going to be out front you know for at least the next year or two

00:34:26.268 --> 00:34:30.268
and you know now people were going on Katie Miller's podcast.

00:34:30.528 --> 00:34:34.528
I didn't even know she had one, but, you know, people can make the argument about me too.

00:34:34.708 --> 00:34:41.968
But I'm just saying it's like now it seems like these tragic events have kind of put them out there.

00:34:42.168 --> 00:34:47.288
And because they espouse these beliefs, do you think that there will be a bigger

00:34:47.288 --> 00:34:52.628
uptick in that mindset and, you know, a counter to feminism that way?

00:34:52.688 --> 00:34:56.728
That's the reason why I asked, would you consider them modern Phyllis Schlafly's?

00:34:56.728 --> 00:35:03.148
Because as I was growing up, she was, you know, the anti-ERA person and,

00:35:03.188 --> 00:35:09.208
you know, she was able to build the American Eagle or whatever the name of her

00:35:09.208 --> 00:35:11.608
group was that, you know,

00:35:12.388 --> 00:35:15.648
were getting all these women to say, no, we don't want equal rights.

00:35:15.828 --> 00:35:21.488
And, you know, even when the Republicans were for equal rights,

00:35:21.668 --> 00:35:25.748
right, she was leading the charge against that. So I'm just wondering,

00:35:26.048 --> 00:35:29.168
are these young ladies about to take that mantle?

00:35:30.083 --> 00:35:34.303
Erik, great question. Yeah, so Phyllis Schlafly, for folks who are not familiar,

00:35:34.883 --> 00:35:40.683
founded the Eagle Forum in 1972 to push back against the Equal Rights Amendment,

00:35:41.023 --> 00:35:47.523
which Alice Paul actually tried to propose as an amendment to the Constitution in 1923.

00:35:47.523 --> 00:35:50.543
After finally getting women the right to vote.

00:35:50.683 --> 00:35:54.103
After that big push, they immediately turn their sights to the Equal Rights

00:35:54.103 --> 00:35:57.983
Amendment, which is simply an amendment to the Constitution that says that women

00:35:57.983 --> 00:36:00.323
are fully covered in the Constitution.

00:36:00.743 --> 00:36:04.443
And for folks who are surprised that that's not in the Constitution, you should be.

00:36:04.843 --> 00:36:08.523
It leads to a lot of things happening that otherwise wouldn't if women were

00:36:08.523 --> 00:36:11.243
fully protected by the Constitution as a category.

00:36:11.603 --> 00:36:17.323
And so Phyllis Schlafly had all of the trappings of a modern businesswoman in

00:36:17.323 --> 00:36:23.163
that she had an office and a staff and travel and an expense account.

00:36:23.323 --> 00:36:28.683
So she was living the life of a modern businesswoman while assailing that lifestyle

00:36:28.683 --> 00:36:30.463
and saying that women should be in the home.

00:36:30.843 --> 00:36:36.063
Her Eagle Forum was heavily funded by right-wing interests, religious interests,

00:36:36.263 --> 00:36:41.663
a lot of theocratic interests that were pushing this. And so she and her efforts

00:36:41.663 --> 00:36:44.283
were able to defeat the Equal Rights Amendment.

00:36:44.663 --> 00:36:52.203
And interesting that you're bringing up Katie Miller and Erika Kirk, both of whom...

00:36:52.472 --> 00:36:55.292
Have big platforms, but I think, Erik, you're pointing out they're going to

00:36:55.292 --> 00:37:01.932
have even bigger platforms, especially Erika Kirk in the tragic wake of her husband's death.

00:37:02.292 --> 00:37:06.532
And just to be clear, political violence is never the answer to anything, right?

00:37:06.892 --> 00:37:10.872
Charlie Kirk was, as much as I disagreed with him on pretty much everything

00:37:10.872 --> 00:37:14.132
he ever said, he was doing it right. He was going to college campuses and trying

00:37:14.132 --> 00:37:15.672
to convince people to his side.

00:37:15.792 --> 00:37:19.032
That's how you do politics. It's political persuasion.

00:37:19.292 --> 00:37:24.052
And now Erika Kirk will be likely taking up a lot of that work,

00:37:24.212 --> 00:37:26.812
which will give the trad wife,

00:37:27.192 --> 00:37:32.512
friend, a much bigger face, more playtime in mainstream channels and reach more

00:37:32.512 --> 00:37:35.532
young women and young men and convince them that this is the way to be.

00:37:35.772 --> 00:37:41.072
I do think it's important to expose the fact that there are big donors.

00:37:41.612 --> 00:37:46.172
Big religious and conservative donors who are writing checks for tens of millions

00:37:46.172 --> 00:37:49.812
of dollars, almost $100 million annually in the case of Turning Point USA,

00:37:49.812 --> 00:37:52.172
in order to just push an ideology.

00:37:52.632 --> 00:37:59.012
And we don't have something like that in the center. We don't have something like that on the left.

00:37:59.172 --> 00:38:03.352
It is a uniquely right-wing phenomenon where you have millionaires and billionaires

00:38:03.352 --> 00:38:08.612
getting together and writing big checks in order to have certain mouthpieces promote an ideology.

00:38:08.732 --> 00:38:14.112
And I have no doubt that Erika Kirk will be promoting the trad wife ideology.

00:38:14.372 --> 00:38:18.572
And of course, Stephen Miller's spouse, Katie Miller, has quite a big platform

00:38:18.572 --> 00:38:22.132
given her ties to her husband in the White House.

00:38:22.332 --> 00:38:30.032
And so already we see about 40% of evangelical and Protestant women are identifying

00:38:30.032 --> 00:38:32.832
as trad wives, and that's a number that is increasing.

00:38:33.072 --> 00:38:37.752
And so while we are seeing women make great gains in many places,

00:38:37.752 --> 00:38:42.192
we're seeing this absolute backlash and trying to get women back into the home

00:38:42.192 --> 00:38:45.232
as we were in the 1950s. Yeah.

00:38:46.092 --> 00:38:51.292
All right. So let me close out. Like I said, I wanted to, you know,

00:38:51.632 --> 00:38:55.572
I wanted to talk to you about your connection with New Orleans.

00:38:56.092 --> 00:39:00.672
It's hard to believe it has been 20 years since Hurricane Katrina.

00:39:01.692 --> 00:39:05.992
What do you think has been learned and how has New Orleans changed?

00:39:06.132 --> 00:39:11.492
Because I know you You were part of, I guess, the restoration of the city,

00:39:11.492 --> 00:39:15.092
you know, after Katrina with some of the projects you were doing.

00:39:15.352 --> 00:39:21.392
So I would like to have your assessment on where you think it is now.

00:39:21.512 --> 00:39:26.612
I know you're not living there at the moment, but I'm sure you still have ties and connections.

00:39:27.680 --> 00:39:32.560
And I'm back and forth to New Orleans and continue to do work in the city.

00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:37.060
And I was just there for Katrina 20. And it is hard to believe,

00:39:37.120 --> 00:39:39.000
as you point out, Erik, that it's been 20 years.

00:39:39.560 --> 00:39:43.580
Prior to Hurricane Katrina, I had not been to New Orleans because I was raised

00:39:43.580 --> 00:39:47.780
Pentecostal evangelical. And even though I kind of shed some of that,

00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:51.920
I still had this idea of New Orleans as like Sin City, right?

00:39:52.040 --> 00:39:56.060
And I just hadn't been there and thought of it as like a den of iniquity.

00:39:56.060 --> 00:40:00.800
And when Hurricane Katrina hit, I remember I was flying out to a conference

00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:03.480
in Washington, D.C., and on

00:40:03.480 --> 00:40:07.100
my way out, I was seeing images of my fellow Americans on their rooftops.

00:40:07.260 --> 00:40:11.100
And then four days later, as I was flying back home, I was seeing these same

00:40:11.100 --> 00:40:15.840
images of my neighbors, you know, my fellow Americans up on their rooftops.

00:40:16.500 --> 00:40:19.120
Stranded, starving, many having drowned.

00:40:19.120 --> 00:40:25.300
And I remember being on the flight in particular because there was a roast of Pamela Anderson.

00:40:25.600 --> 00:40:28.540
And I don't know if you remember this roast, but she was wearing a revealing outfit.

00:40:28.780 --> 00:40:32.720
And so I was walking back. It was a JetBlue flight, walking back from the restroom

00:40:32.720 --> 00:40:39.560
and seeing all of these JetBlue little TVs on the back of the seats tuned into

00:40:39.560 --> 00:40:41.540
the Pamela Anderson roast.

00:40:41.540 --> 00:40:44.740
And no one was looking at the images anymore and

00:40:44.740 --> 00:40:49.500
it was so disturbing not only that you know fellow americans were still stranded

00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:54.720
but that we had kind of already moved on and so when i got back home i heeded

00:40:54.720 --> 00:40:59.980
a civilian call from celebrity sean penn who said yeah come on down with your

00:40:59.980 --> 00:41:02.180
boats and so i i borrowed a.

00:41:03.086 --> 00:41:08.466
An SUV, an Xterra from a student and hopped in with two other students.

00:41:08.486 --> 00:41:10.786
And we drove down and, of course, couldn't fly in.

00:41:10.946 --> 00:41:14.266
There were no flights. There were no places to stay. And we had press passes.

00:41:14.686 --> 00:41:18.466
And, you know, it's one of those before and after moments where you think the

00:41:18.466 --> 00:41:19.586
world works a certain way.

00:41:19.746 --> 00:41:25.946
And then you see human beings who have died and are just lying in the streets.

00:41:26.526 --> 00:41:30.406
And it's many days, you know, the week that the storm hit, we made it down.

00:41:30.606 --> 00:41:36.046
But many days after the storm had hit and there still wasn't food or rescue

00:41:36.046 --> 00:41:38.926
efforts, hadn't really gotten fully underway.

00:41:39.566 --> 00:41:45.926
And then to learn that this was not only predicted with the Hurricane Pam simulation

00:41:45.926 --> 00:41:48.306
a year before, it was preventable.

00:41:48.446 --> 00:41:52.546
It wasn't an issue with Hurricane Katrina hitting the city dead on.

00:41:52.706 --> 00:41:55.506
It was a Category 5 storm out on the Gulf.

00:41:55.746 --> 00:41:59.626
By the time it hit Waveland, Mississippi, which is where ground zero for Hurricane

00:41:59.626 --> 00:42:01.706
Katrina. It was a Category 3.

00:42:02.146 --> 00:42:05.846
New Orleans did not get a direct hit. It was just strong winds from a Category 2.

00:42:06.126 --> 00:42:11.866
And that caused the largest, what would later be called the largest engineering disaster in U.S.

00:42:12.046 --> 00:42:16.286
History, which is that the levees breached, right? And they breached in three primary places.

00:42:16.706 --> 00:42:21.526
And so most of my efforts and my colleagues' efforts have focused on the lower 9th Ward.

00:42:21.646 --> 00:42:27.766
So we immediately did rebuilding and home gutting, which is just removing items from houses,

00:42:28.086 --> 00:42:32.526
and set up community kitchens and community lending stations in the Lower Ninth

00:42:32.526 --> 00:42:36.766
Ward, and then opened the New Orleans Women's and Children's Shelter and,

00:42:36.766 --> 00:42:39.386
you know, continued to work with Common Ground in rebuilding.

00:42:39.666 --> 00:42:43.126
And then about five years after, Katrina, I realized it wasn't going to come

00:42:43.126 --> 00:42:45.426
back, that there wasn't going to be justice in rebuilding.

00:42:45.746 --> 00:42:51.366
And so we opened the Lower Ninth Ward Living Museum in order to preserve the

00:42:51.366 --> 00:42:56.806
history of that historic Black neighborhood and then began curating,

00:42:57.406 --> 00:43:00.966
the first civil rights museum in New Orleans with Dr.

00:43:01.186 --> 00:43:04.826
Leona Tate, who was one of the four little girls who desegregated the Deep South.

00:43:05.086 --> 00:43:06.726
I think a lot of people know about.

00:43:07.470 --> 00:43:11.130
Ruby Bridges and her heroic efforts at Franz Elementary.

00:43:11.450 --> 00:43:15.090
What people may not know is that there were three little girls who were doing

00:43:15.090 --> 00:43:18.290
the exact same thing less than a mile away in the Lower Ninth Ward.

00:43:18.550 --> 00:43:22.350
And of course, all the white parents pulled their kids out of school.

00:43:22.350 --> 00:43:25.490
They were terrorizing these little girls and harassing them.

00:43:26.150 --> 00:43:32.030
And so Dr. Tate was able to, many years later, purchase McDonough 19,

00:43:32.030 --> 00:43:36.110
which is the school she desegregated, and make it into, you know,

00:43:36.110 --> 00:43:37.710
Preserve It is an Historic Landmark.

00:43:37.990 --> 00:43:43.850
She's reopened it with the exhibit that we curated, as well as mixed income

00:43:43.850 --> 00:43:48.390
housing for older adults and a gathering space for activists.

00:43:48.610 --> 00:43:50.610
So we do our annual gala.

00:43:50.990 --> 00:43:55.770
This year it's happening on November 14th, which is a Friday night.

00:43:55.770 --> 00:43:58.510
It's the best party in New Orleans, probably sold out already.

00:43:58.750 --> 00:44:02.970
But I hope that anyone in New Orleans who might hear this will support the TEP

00:44:02.970 --> 00:44:07.910
Center, which is named after the last names of the three little girls who desegregated that.

00:44:08.110 --> 00:44:11.670
And we continue to, you know, raise awareness about what happened,

00:44:11.770 --> 00:44:15.410
but also provide spaces for the community to come together.

00:44:15.690 --> 00:44:19.330
Because it's, you know, it's, especially the Lower Ninth Ward,

00:44:19.430 --> 00:44:26.290
it's a part of our country that, you know, was flooded because of injustice,

00:44:26.290 --> 00:44:28.710
because the levees weren't built right.

00:44:28.830 --> 00:44:32.490
They weren't built deeply enough after the breach a breach that happened in

00:44:32.490 --> 00:44:35.770
1965 with Hurricane Betsy. It simply wasn't built down far enough.

00:44:36.450 --> 00:44:40.330
And this is a neighborhood that was not allowed to come back in any equitable way.

00:44:40.470 --> 00:44:45.290
So if anyone's visiting New Orleans, please visit the TEP Center and give them their support.

00:44:46.050 --> 00:44:50.210
All right. So thank you for that, Dr. Heldman.

00:44:50.610 --> 00:44:53.650
Yeah, you know, I was in Mississippi during that time.

00:44:53.870 --> 00:44:58.050
I was actually in the legislature during that time. So, you know,

00:44:58.270 --> 00:45:03.390
you were dead on about Waveland being hit, and, you know, our focus had to be

00:45:03.390 --> 00:45:08.030
trying to get us back, you know, on the Gulf Coast going on.

00:45:09.361 --> 00:45:14.721
We had a lot of people from New Orleans come in, and me and several other legislators

00:45:14.721 --> 00:45:19.441
just kind of took it upon ourselves to do the best we could to get them situated.

00:45:20.281 --> 00:45:25.241
And, you know, Jackson, Mississippi was a success story as far as people coming

00:45:25.241 --> 00:45:27.441
from New Orleans to reestablish.

00:45:28.661 --> 00:45:32.721
But when I saw that in your background, I said, well, I got to at least ask her.

00:45:32.881 --> 00:45:36.881
And so I'm glad to know that you're still engaged with what's going on down

00:45:36.881 --> 00:45:40.441
there. If people want to reach out to you, if people want to,

00:45:41.021 --> 00:45:45.761
other than enrolling at Oxyn Oak College, how can people do that?

00:45:46.301 --> 00:45:51.261
My email is just my last name, heldman at oxy, O-X-Y dot E-D-U.

00:45:51.801 --> 00:45:57.661
And my website is Dr. Caroline Heldman. And you can find me on the everything,

00:45:58.001 --> 00:46:02.981
the blue sky, TikTok, Instagram, sort of Twitter, benign account on Twitter,

00:46:03.141 --> 00:46:05.161
just sitting there hanging out and Facebook. book.

00:46:06.121 --> 00:46:11.201
Well, Dr. Caroline Heldman, it's been really, really a pleasure and an honor to talk to you.

00:46:11.421 --> 00:46:16.321
And I greatly appreciate this opportunity to pick your brain a little bit and

00:46:16.321 --> 00:46:21.261
do understand that one of the rules here is that once you've been invited and

00:46:21.261 --> 00:46:25.161
you accept it and you come on, that you have an open invitation to come back.

00:46:25.921 --> 00:46:29.501
And so you don't even have to wait for me to ask you. If you was like,

00:46:29.601 --> 00:46:32.881
Erik, I need to talk about something, you're more than welcome to.

00:46:33.061 --> 00:46:35.421
We'll we'll make, make, make that happen.

00:46:35.661 --> 00:46:39.481
So Dr. Heldman, thank you so much for coming on. I greatly appreciate it.

00:46:40.201 --> 00:46:45.521
Oh, it is my honor, Mr. Erik Fleming. You are marvelous. And thank you for your incredible work.

00:46:45.561 --> 00:46:48.761
And I look forward to coming back on. All right.

00:46:49.181 --> 00:46:51.441
All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

00:46:52.400 --> 00:47:10.640
Music.

00:47:10.792 --> 00:47:16.312
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Alia Dastagir.

00:47:16.992 --> 00:47:23.832
Alia Dastagir is a former reporter for USA Today who frequently covers gender and mental health.

00:47:24.152 --> 00:47:29.212
She was one of eight U.S. recipients of the prestigious Rosalind Carter Fellowships

00:47:29.212 --> 00:47:30.432
for Mental Health Journalism.

00:47:30.732 --> 00:47:35.772
She won a first place national headliner award for a series on suicide.

00:47:35.772 --> 00:47:44.232
Was the first winner of the American Association of Suicidology's Public Service Journalism Award.

00:47:44.952 --> 00:47:51.252
Dastagir has appeared on CNN, NPR, and C-SPAN to discuss her reporting.

00:47:52.092 --> 00:47:59.492
She is currently pursuing an MFA in creative writing at New York University and her book,

00:47:59.712 --> 00:48:05.152
To Those Who Have Confused You to Be a Person, Words as Violence and Stories

00:48:05.152 --> 00:48:09.892
of Women's Resistance Online, was recently published by Crown.

00:48:10.192 --> 00:48:15.412
And we're going to talk about the book and a couple other subjects during the interview.

00:48:15.612 --> 00:48:19.312
So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a

00:48:19.312 --> 00:48:23.692
guest on this podcast, Alia Dastagir.

00:48:25.040 --> 00:48:34.640
Music.

00:48:34.820 --> 00:48:38.640
All right. Alia Dastagir. How are you doing, ma'am? You doing good?

00:48:39.240 --> 00:48:42.360
I'm good. Thank you so much. And thanks for pronouncing my name correctly.

00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:46.520
I respond to so many things at this point, but I appreciate that. I'm happy to be here.

00:48:46.700 --> 00:48:51.780
Well, I'm one of those folks, too, that it's like if I can cash the check at

00:48:51.780 --> 00:48:53.120
the bank, it's all good, right?

00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:58.180
Exactly. So, look, I'm honored that you're on.

00:48:58.420 --> 00:49:02.960
We're going to talk about your book, But I also kind of want to touch on some

00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:06.780
things that's happening, you know, in real time.

00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:11.300
And I think because of your background in journalism and all that,

00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:13.860
that I think you can handle some of the questions.

00:49:14.280 --> 00:49:18.520
The other thing is I kind of start the show off with a couple of icebreakers.

00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:24.080
Oh, God. Well, it's not that bad. All right, let's go. So the first icebreaker is a quote.

00:49:24.300 --> 00:49:28.100
To be heard as complaining is not to be heard.

00:49:28.500 --> 00:49:33.340
Yeah. To hear someone as complaining is an effective way of dismissing someone.

00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:38.820
You do not have to listen to the content of what she is saying if she is just

00:49:38.820 --> 00:49:40.580
complaining or always complaining.

00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:44.740
What does that quote mean to you? I mean, that is a great quote by a scholar

00:49:44.740 --> 00:49:47.180
named Sarah Ahmed and from her book Complaint.

00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:52.140
That quote, you know, sometimes you read something or you hear something and

00:49:52.140 --> 00:49:58.380
you just feel like it is able to give language or crystallize an idea,

00:49:58.580 --> 00:50:02.480
like something that you feel is inherently true, but you don't kind of have the language for.

00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:07.780
And she writes so directly and so clearly and I think was able to,

00:50:07.780 --> 00:50:12.380
I think, you know, articulate she's not talking about necessarily online abuse,

00:50:12.540 --> 00:50:15.700
but abuses more broadly, especially in the workplace.

00:50:15.700 --> 00:50:22.680
But that quote really speaks to this sort of, you know, the sort of reflex that

00:50:22.680 --> 00:50:25.240
we have to dismiss people,

00:50:25.700 --> 00:50:35.700
to dismiss legitimate emotions, whether it's, you know, fear or, you know, anger.

00:50:35.700 --> 00:50:41.120
You know, whatever that there that that when you're that we have, I guess,

00:50:41.220 --> 00:50:45.360
sort of an obligation when we're sort of being in the human community together

00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:52.720
to give to make space right for the for the emotion, for the for to give, I guess,

00:50:52.860 --> 00:50:56.220
kind of uptake right to the emotion. And we don't do that.

00:50:57.515 --> 00:51:01.315
We don't we can't hear it. We can't hear each other. And so I think and I think

00:51:01.315 --> 00:51:05.255
that this because, you know, I am obviously writing a book about women or maybe

00:51:05.255 --> 00:51:08.995
it's not obvious to your audience, but I wrote a book about women and the harms

00:51:08.995 --> 00:51:11.535
and the violence that sort of women specifically face.

00:51:11.535 --> 00:51:14.655
You know, I think that this is also, you know, she's talking about something

00:51:14.655 --> 00:51:16.355
very gendered there, right?

00:51:16.515 --> 00:51:21.675
Which is, it is very easy to listen to somebody, to not hear somebody,

00:51:22.115 --> 00:51:23.735
right? To not hear a person.

00:51:24.075 --> 00:51:29.735
If you, you know, depending on kind of the, yeah, the way that you sort of,

00:51:30.275 --> 00:51:34.435
depending on who the speaker is, right? It's very easy to give.

00:51:34.575 --> 00:51:37.995
I think in many cases we give uptake or we give attention or we give,

00:51:38.135 --> 00:51:43.155
we legitimize the emotions and the experiences of certain groups and not others.

00:51:43.475 --> 00:51:47.615
So, yeah, I mean, I think that that quote for me is just so important to this

00:51:47.615 --> 00:51:51.955
issue of online abuse, because I think so many of the times when women experience

00:51:51.955 --> 00:51:57.495
online abuse or harm in these online spaces, they are told that they are complaining.

00:51:57.495 --> 00:52:01.895
They are told that they are too fragile or too weak or too overwrought or their

00:52:01.895 --> 00:52:06.455
emotions are sort of, you know, useless, right, in these spaces.

00:52:06.495 --> 00:52:10.115
And I think that that's just such an absurdity and such a shame.

00:52:10.335 --> 00:52:12.975
And it's one of the reasons why we haven't been able, I think,

00:52:13.115 --> 00:52:17.715
to meaningfully address the issue of online abuse, particularly when it's directed

00:52:17.715 --> 00:52:18.955
towards certain groups of people.

00:52:19.335 --> 00:52:25.515
Yeah, the thing that came to my mind when I first read that quote was Chicken Little, right?

00:52:26.375 --> 00:52:29.975
That you know it's like when

00:52:29.975 --> 00:52:33.475
an actually something actually did happen it was

00:52:33.475 --> 00:52:36.455
like well you know chicken little you've been saying the sky has been falling

00:52:36.455 --> 00:52:42.215
for a while so you know we're not gonna buy into it until oh okay now that sky

00:52:42.215 --> 00:52:46.115
is actually falling you actually meant it this time right and i think you know

00:52:46.115 --> 00:52:52.375
in the gist of what you're talking about with with online abuse or just any kind of,

00:52:53.455 --> 00:52:58.835
And it's an issue that people, because, I mean, you can flip that with Black people, right?

00:52:59.235 --> 00:53:04.695
It's like they'll say, you know, we're victimizing ourselves when we say there's

00:53:04.695 --> 00:53:06.635
an injustice here and a justice there.

00:53:06.855 --> 00:53:11.895
And then when people finally see it, it's like, oh, okay, this is what you were talking about.

00:53:12.075 --> 00:53:16.855
But until that actually happens, it's like it's in one ear out the other.

00:53:17.595 --> 00:53:23.335
And black people and black, you know, particularly black digital feminists are

00:53:23.335 --> 00:53:26.735
such a huge part of this story, too, because exactly to your point, right?

00:53:26.995 --> 00:53:31.055
Like these were, you know, they were some of the, you know.

00:53:31.615 --> 00:53:37.375
Users online who were sort of loudest about this issue of online abuse and the

00:53:37.375 --> 00:53:43.735
weaponization of these platforms and the ability to spread maliciously disinformation

00:53:43.735 --> 00:53:46.495
on these platforms. I mean, they were prescient about this.

00:53:46.635 --> 00:53:54.215
Now, what, like 15, 20 years ago talking about this and their insights were not taken seriously.

00:53:54.455 --> 00:53:59.495
Their pain was not deemed worthy of serious attention. And now we have,

00:53:59.615 --> 00:54:04.375
you know, the moment that we're in where these platforms are totally unaccountable.

00:54:04.615 --> 00:54:10.075
Disinformation has run rampant. I mean, we the ability for certain people in

00:54:10.075 --> 00:54:11.555
this country to be able to speak

00:54:11.555 --> 00:54:16.735
freely is, you know, under not even under threat. Right. I mean, we can't.

00:54:17.195 --> 00:54:21.715
So so it is it is so true, you know, particularly, yeah, for certain groups

00:54:21.715 --> 00:54:25.295
of people. I think that's the whole point with that sort of quote is that that

00:54:25.295 --> 00:54:28.515
that people are there is something that needs to be heard.

00:54:28.735 --> 00:54:35.675
But certain people in the culture, right, are that their pain is not deemed

00:54:35.675 --> 00:54:36.855
worthy of serious attention.

00:54:37.175 --> 00:54:40.215
And so then we find ourselves in the position we're in. Yeah.

00:54:40.675 --> 00:54:43.955
All right. So now the second icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.

00:54:44.395 --> 00:54:48.015
Oh, God. So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

00:54:49.215 --> 00:54:51.535
It's just a lower number. You're going to ask me a few requests.

00:54:51.895 --> 00:54:53.775
All right. I'm going to go with nine. Okay.

00:54:54.855 --> 00:54:59.695
All right. Number nine. If you were required to be a single issue voter,

00:54:59.975 --> 00:55:02.255
what issue would you choose and why?

00:55:03.615 --> 00:55:07.795
All right. Well, I guess I would, I would have to say reproductive justice.

00:55:07.995 --> 00:55:12.155
I think bottle, I mean, bodily, you know, bodily autonomy, human dignity.

00:55:12.335 --> 00:55:15.835
I mean, just bodily autonomy, right? I mean, just being able to,

00:55:16.395 --> 00:55:20.075
you know, my identity as a woman. I mean, I have daughters.

00:55:20.775 --> 00:55:30.895
This, you know, it feels to me one of the most horrific and brutal and devastating

00:55:30.895 --> 00:55:34.075
and dangerous sort of developments,

00:55:34.395 --> 00:55:40.015
right, in the last several years, which is to say that it is incredible to think

00:55:40.015 --> 00:55:44.195
that I have less rights and my children have less, my daughters have less rights

00:55:44.195 --> 00:55:46.935
in some ways than my mother did.

00:55:46.935 --> 00:55:55.875
So, yeah, I would say that the reporting on what is happening around abortion

00:55:55.875 --> 00:56:00.535
in this country and what is happening to women and their inability or people who,

00:56:00.815 --> 00:56:03.915
you know, anybody, right, who can carry a pregnancy is just,

00:56:03.915 --> 00:56:05.895
it's incredibly frightening.

00:56:06.035 --> 00:56:10.115
And I think that it intersects with so many other sort of human rights issues

00:56:10.115 --> 00:56:15.055
and bodily autonomy issues and human dignity issues. And so that's extremely

00:56:15.055 --> 00:56:16.315
important to me. All right.

00:56:16.855 --> 00:56:24.695
Do you feel that survival from sexual harassment or sexual assault is a form of resistance?

00:56:25.715 --> 00:56:29.595
Yes, I do. I think that, yes.

00:56:29.835 --> 00:56:35.135
Okay, so let me think how I formulate that. Yes, because I think that the sources,

00:56:35.355 --> 00:56:42.215
I think that the things that make sexual violence possible and permissible in

00:56:42.215 --> 00:56:46.955
cultures are forces and systems that...

00:56:48.243 --> 00:56:51.643
Many of us are trying to sort of resist, right? So when you,

00:56:52.003 --> 00:56:56.983
and also I don't want to, you know, make any kind of moral judgment around people

00:56:56.983 --> 00:56:58.523
who can't survive those things, right?

00:56:58.703 --> 00:57:05.263
Like it is, I mean, violence and harm and oppression is, can be incredibly destructive

00:57:05.263 --> 00:57:09.303
and many people don't withstand it, right? Many people don't survive.

00:57:09.523 --> 00:57:13.723
And I don't want to sort of moralize around, you know, whether or not that makes

00:57:13.723 --> 00:57:16.043
a person sort of stronger, more capable, more resilient.

00:57:16.043 --> 00:57:19.123
But I do think yes i think it is an act of resistance because

00:57:19.123 --> 00:57:23.263
i think that the source of these of

00:57:23.263 --> 00:57:27.103
violence it this oppressive violence that i write about in the book and that

00:57:27.103 --> 00:57:30.983
i i think you know you sort of you know also exploring your program i think

00:57:30.983 --> 00:57:36.123
the sources of that oppressive violence are you know what make that kind of

00:57:36.123 --> 00:57:42.203
like that is what makes violence possible right like a hierarchy or a system that ranks you in life.

00:57:42.383 --> 00:57:49.603
And so when you survive, you are sort of sending a message to yourself and to

00:57:49.603 --> 00:57:55.063
the broader culture that you will not be, I don't know what,

00:57:55.143 --> 00:57:56.323
I don't want to sound trite, right?

00:57:56.443 --> 00:58:00.803
But you will not, that these things are, you're going to still continue,

00:58:01.063 --> 00:58:03.983
right? You're going to continue to move through life. You deserve a life.

00:58:04.103 --> 00:58:06.943
You deserve dignity. You deserve safety.

00:58:07.103 --> 00:58:11.843
You deserve these things. And so, yes, I do think that that it is a form of resistance.

00:58:12.223 --> 00:58:19.203
So I want you to expound on it a little more in a specific sense as to why is

00:58:19.203 --> 00:58:26.703
it such a huge deal for the survivors of the Epstein trafficking ring to come forward? Oh, God.

00:58:27.343 --> 00:58:31.023
Yeah. And watching them speak in those moments.

00:58:31.023 --> 00:58:36.243
I mean, I think because, you know, the whole sexual violence is,

00:58:36.423 --> 00:58:39.523
again, we're talking about what makes it possible, what makes it permissible,

00:58:39.543 --> 00:58:46.923
what allows it to sort of flourish is the right word to be so pervasive right in society is because.

00:58:48.765 --> 00:58:55.885
Because we feel women feels and survivors and victims feel such shame about what happened to them.

00:58:55.985 --> 00:58:59.625
And it is such an incredibly intimate violation.

00:59:00.005 --> 00:59:03.225
You know, thinking about to my single, you know, if I was going to be a single

00:59:03.225 --> 00:59:05.285
issue voter, right, like that issue of bodily autonomy.

00:59:05.285 --> 00:59:13.025
I mean, violations of the body are incredibly profound and it takes so much

00:59:13.025 --> 00:59:20.685
to kind of make sense of that and to sort of extricate your own feeling of shame

00:59:20.685 --> 00:59:23.165
and responsibility from, you know,

00:59:23.285 --> 00:59:26.185
this violence that has been perpetrated against you.

00:59:26.185 --> 00:59:30.825
And so I think that, you know, I felt particularly moved watching the survivors,

00:59:31.325 --> 00:59:37.465
the Epstein survivors speak at that press conference recently because they also

00:59:37.465 --> 00:59:38.765
are putting themselves,

00:59:39.265 --> 00:59:42.965
you know, not only are they resisting, right, this sort of culture of silence

00:59:42.965 --> 00:59:49.185
and resisting the shame, right, that the perpetrator is counting on them,

00:59:49.385 --> 00:59:53.165
right, banking on them feeling so deeply so that they won't speak.

00:59:53.165 --> 00:59:57.765
But they also are putting themselves at such enormous risk to speak out.

00:59:58.025 --> 01:00:05.605
And, you know, thinking even about, again, my work on this book is about.

01:00:06.465 --> 01:00:08.965
You know, in many ways, what is the cost of speech?

01:00:09.005 --> 01:00:13.685
Like, what does it cost us to speak and what happens to us when we speak,

01:00:13.785 --> 01:00:18.465
whether we're at a press conference or, you know, posting something on X,

01:00:18.585 --> 01:00:19.705
right? What is the cost of that?

01:00:19.845 --> 01:00:25.905
And in many cases, speaking out about injustice makes you a greater target for

01:00:25.905 --> 01:00:30.105
injustice, and particularly when you're expressing sort of public vulnerability.

01:00:31.425 --> 01:00:36.285
So I think that, you know, those survivors were, you know,

01:00:36.625 --> 01:00:40.605
just the act alone and especially the content of what they were saying,

01:00:40.805 --> 01:00:43.905
which was effectively, if you're not going to hold people accountable,

01:00:43.905 --> 01:00:47.065
we are going to take matters into our own hands.

01:00:47.065 --> 01:00:49.545
It's we have the names. We know what happened.

01:00:49.765 --> 01:00:54.045
You know, we're going to it is. And they put themselves at enormous risk to do that.

01:00:54.165 --> 01:00:59.225
But they but there's a great recognition that that in order to usher in the

01:00:59.225 --> 01:01:05.385
kind of world that so many of us want, our voices are our greatest sort of tools.

01:01:05.645 --> 01:01:10.665
Right. So, yeah, I was incredibly moved by that by that press conference. Yeah.

01:01:11.305 --> 01:01:17.985
All right. So let's let's talk about this book to those who have confused you to be a person.

01:01:18.842 --> 01:01:23.662
How did you come about that title? Yes.

01:01:24.002 --> 01:01:27.802
So, and you said it correctly. So that was good.

01:01:28.222 --> 01:01:30.962
But I think that's sort of the point, right? That you sort of,

01:01:31.102 --> 01:01:33.802
I mean, well, I don't know. When I'm thinking about what I sort of,

01:01:33.962 --> 01:01:35.722
okay, well, let's just say it like this.

01:01:35.942 --> 01:01:39.722
It's so hard to write a book. I think it's even harder to name a book.

01:01:39.922 --> 01:01:45.242
Like it was incredible. Like everything I came up with, then I had another title

01:01:45.242 --> 01:01:47.362
and it ended up being a Taylor Swift song.

01:01:47.542 --> 01:01:49.082
And that was a big mess. So it's

01:01:49.082 --> 01:01:54.602
really, really hard to sort of distill something, right, that you are.

01:01:54.962 --> 01:01:58.962
You know, in many ways, my book is trying to complicate something that I think

01:01:58.962 --> 01:02:04.142
that people feel that they, not all people, but that many people feel that they understand, right?

01:02:04.262 --> 01:02:07.962
And I'm trying to sort of complicate it, to add nuance. And then when you're

01:02:07.962 --> 01:02:10.722
asked to sort of name something, to name a book or title something,

01:02:11.042 --> 01:02:12.262
even a news article, right?

01:02:12.382 --> 01:02:16.742
You're sort of being asked to come up with the simplest way of,

01:02:16.762 --> 01:02:23.982
you know, sort of saying, you know, being able to communicate what is in these pages.

01:02:23.982 --> 01:02:27.322
And that's very difficult. But for me, the title was sort of born,

01:02:27.342 --> 01:02:32.042
I was looking for something that would really speak to the heart of the project.

01:02:32.262 --> 01:02:38.402
And this, the issue of online abuse was something I had been thinking about

01:02:38.402 --> 01:02:43.922
for years while I was sort of experiencing it and watching other women sort of speak out about it.

01:02:44.002 --> 01:02:49.082
But it wasn't until, I guess, like late 2019 or early, maybe early 2020,

01:02:49.322 --> 01:02:54.622
maybe late 2019, I started to think, okay, maybe I want to explore this in a more, in a deeper way.

01:02:54.622 --> 01:03:00.322
And then early 2020, I'd written a story, ironically, about online abuse of women journalists.

01:03:00.722 --> 01:03:07.562
And a user who was ostensibly male sent me a message after reading that story

01:03:07.562 --> 01:03:14.062
that said, I'm sorry to those who have confused you to be a person, but you are not a person.

01:03:15.602 --> 01:03:19.002
And there were so many things to kind of unpack about that. So when I received

01:03:19.002 --> 01:03:24.922
that message, I actually, I had just had a baby and I was breastfeeding the baby in her room.

01:03:24.982 --> 01:03:29.582
And there was just an extraordinary amount of dissonance between what I was

01:03:29.582 --> 01:03:34.402
experiencing in my body and with my child and what was sort of visible,

01:03:34.662 --> 01:03:37.962
right, kind of in that room, right? And what was happening today.

01:03:38.395 --> 01:03:42.375
Inside me and what this, you know, what is your cognitively right now,

01:03:42.495 --> 01:03:45.575
what was happening and then what this person was, was sort of saying to me,

01:03:45.655 --> 01:03:47.735
which is, you're not a person.

01:03:48.235 --> 01:03:53.075
And I had just, you know, kind of made a help make a person and I was like keeping

01:03:53.075 --> 01:03:55.375
a person alive, like with my body.

01:03:55.555 --> 01:04:00.275
So there was such dissonance there. But I think the reason I titled the book,

01:04:00.615 --> 01:04:04.595
you know, sort of drew from that to title the book is both because it was in

01:04:04.595 --> 01:04:08.835
that moment that I think I, if I recall correctly, that I really was resolved

01:04:08.835 --> 01:04:11.015
to write the book or to do something.

01:04:11.115 --> 01:04:15.635
I didn't know exactly what shape it would take, but that's when I decided that I would really do it.

01:04:15.755 --> 01:04:18.695
And I think that also that sort of,

01:04:18.995 --> 01:04:24.635
that message and the sort of sentiment and the difficulty that I have in sort

01:04:24.635 --> 01:04:29.255
of processing it also sort of speaks to what I felt was something that was really

01:04:29.255 --> 01:04:31.395
important to kind of underscore in the work,

01:04:31.475 --> 01:04:34.915
which is that the message doesn't have to.

01:04:35.615 --> 01:04:40.495
Have like profanity or death threats or rape threats or be, you know,

01:04:40.595 --> 01:04:44.095
sort of really sort of visibly kind of disgusting, you know,

01:04:44.235 --> 01:04:50.095
for it to kind of call our attention to it or for it to matter or for it to cause harm, right?

01:04:50.295 --> 01:04:53.975
Some of the women that I interviewed for this book were most harmed by,

01:04:54.115 --> 01:04:58.475
you know, language that really you couldn't even report to a social media platform,

01:04:58.715 --> 01:05:01.575
right, for a violation of their of their roles.

01:05:01.755 --> 01:05:05.135
And so I think it speaks to the fact that we experience really

01:05:05.135 --> 01:05:08.955
a kind of spectrum of kind of abuses in

01:05:08.955 --> 01:05:12.955
in these places and this was an incredibly dehumanizing message but there was

01:05:12.955 --> 01:05:18.715
nothing you know explicitly kind of profane about it and I think the final thing

01:05:18.715 --> 01:05:23.635
that I that I you know way that I think it speaks to the project is that I thought

01:05:23.635 --> 01:05:27.495
about that message for a lot for a long time because it was so.

01:05:28.575 --> 01:05:32.495
Grammatically awkward and sort of strange and I think that that's sort of a

01:05:32.495 --> 01:05:37.135
missed piece of what these experiences can really be like for people,

01:05:37.375 --> 01:05:43.695
which is to say that it's really clear what somebody sending a rape threat or a death threat thinks,

01:05:44.195 --> 01:05:46.415
you know, it's clear what that person thinks about you.

01:05:46.635 --> 01:05:53.035
But some of these messages really do take up so much more sort of time and labor

01:05:53.035 --> 01:05:58.095
in our sort of brains and bodies as we try to make sense of what is being said,

01:05:58.095 --> 01:06:01.655
why it's being said and maybe whether

01:06:01.655 --> 01:06:04.755
or not we deserved it which we we

01:06:04.755 --> 01:06:07.595
don't but i do think that that's a you know sort of an impulse to

01:06:07.595 --> 01:06:11.535
be kind of like what did i do like what did i do that this person thinks that

01:06:11.535 --> 01:06:15.415
i don't belong in the human community so yeah that's where the that's where

01:06:15.415 --> 01:06:20.055
the title came from and people do stumble on it and i do have some self-consciousness

01:06:20.055 --> 01:06:23.835
about it sometimes but i really do think it speaks to the heart of the project

01:06:23.835 --> 01:06:26.315
and and if it makes somebody kind of, you know,

01:06:26.775 --> 01:06:29.095
stop at a bookstore, then I had done my job.

01:06:29.575 --> 01:06:33.135
So you mentioned that you interviewed a lot of people.

01:06:34.264 --> 01:06:40.024
In compiling this book. And, you know, in the introduction, you know,

01:06:40.084 --> 01:06:42.184
I tell people that you're a journalist and all that.

01:06:42.324 --> 01:06:48.164
So it seems natural for you to gather stories to put a book together.

01:06:48.564 --> 01:06:53.764
The question I have for you is, why did you make yourself vulnerable and put

01:06:53.764 --> 01:06:57.964
your story in the mix with all the others? Why did you say you had to do that?

01:06:58.424 --> 01:07:02.664
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, that's a great question because it is

01:07:02.664 --> 01:07:08.064
such a departure from what I've been doing in my decade at USA Today,

01:07:08.244 --> 01:07:11.184
which is most of the time, you know, I mean, really never.

01:07:11.384 --> 01:07:15.244
I think very occasionally, maybe one or two times I wrote in the first person.

01:07:15.844 --> 01:07:22.004
I think it had to do both with the genesis of the project and also with ultimately the goals.

01:07:22.224 --> 01:07:27.504
So initially I was just going to write about myself, but nobody wanted that book.

01:07:27.584 --> 01:07:32.924
And that's good because, yeah, like there was a real sort of narcissism,

01:07:33.064 --> 01:07:38.384
I think, involved in that and a kind of myopic idea about what the abuse was

01:07:38.384 --> 01:07:44.344
because or and what was driving it because I was only initially kind of trying

01:07:44.344 --> 01:07:47.904
to speak from my own experience, and I so deeply misunderstood myself.

01:07:49.712 --> 01:07:53.952
Problem. Even, I mean, just thinking about what we were talking about earlier with, you know,

01:07:54.192 --> 01:07:57.872
some of these, you know, Black digital feminists who were online,

01:07:58.072 --> 01:08:01.432
you know, for years and years and years being abused and speaking out about

01:08:01.432 --> 01:08:03.472
it and experiencing certainly,

01:08:03.712 --> 01:08:10.272
yes, some of what I experienced as a reporter at USA Today, but we're not necessarily

01:08:10.272 --> 01:08:14.092
part of an enormous institution that could stand behind them.

01:08:14.212 --> 01:08:19.552
We're experiencing not just sexism and misogyny, but racism,

01:08:19.712 --> 01:08:22.672
and misogynoir and all these other kinds of things.

01:08:22.872 --> 01:08:28.372
So initially I was trying to write from my own experience, but that wasn't resonant

01:08:28.372 --> 01:08:30.992
when I was trying to kind of get this idea off the ground.

01:08:31.032 --> 01:08:37.092
And I feel very grateful for that because I think that it forced me to look

01:08:37.092 --> 01:08:41.912
at the issue in a deeper way and to look backwards and, you know,

01:08:41.972 --> 01:08:46.532
instead of being sort of really preoccupied with my sort of present experience.

01:08:46.932 --> 01:08:52.312
But I think that, you know, one of the goals for the project ultimately was

01:08:52.312 --> 01:09:01.752
to really kind of try to slow down the experience of being harmed in these online spaces, right?

01:09:01.832 --> 01:09:05.852
Because I think sometimes when we talk about online abuse or online harassment,

01:09:06.032 --> 01:09:11.072
maybe our minds kind of flash to certain, you know, language, right?

01:09:11.152 --> 01:09:13.992
Or certain words or but but I but I really wanted

01:09:13.992 --> 01:09:16.752
to explore like what is

01:09:16.752 --> 01:09:20.052
that what does it mean to experience it and

01:09:20.052 --> 01:09:23.452
not just in that moment right but to kind of carry

01:09:23.452 --> 01:09:29.072
it around with you or to carry all of your life into the way that you process

01:09:29.072 --> 01:09:35.912
and experience that abuse because obviously we all sit in different places in

01:09:35.912 --> 01:09:41.712
the culture and have these very different lives and different resources And, you know,

01:09:42.032 --> 01:09:46.772
the women that I interviewed are very diverse in terms of race, class, occupation.

01:09:47.232 --> 01:09:53.152
You know, all of these, you know, disability status, all these kinds of sexual

01:09:53.152 --> 01:09:54.692
identity, all these kinds of things.

01:09:54.792 --> 01:09:59.192
And I think that that's really important because that all impacts how we experience this.

01:09:59.192 --> 01:10:02.032
But I felt like I think that there

01:10:02.032 --> 01:10:04.912
was also a real there was always going

01:10:04.912 --> 01:10:09.872
to be a limit to how intimate I could get with these subjects because it wasn't

01:10:09.872 --> 01:10:14.652
as if I was just following a single person you know profiling a single person

01:10:14.652 --> 01:10:18.692
and could be with them for hours and hours and hours be with them in their life

01:10:18.692 --> 01:10:24.672
and you know go visit them wherever they lived it but that wasn't the project and so I felt that the.

01:10:25.406 --> 01:10:33.686
Know, I feel very grateful that these subjects really did let me into their suffering and their,

01:10:33.886 --> 01:10:37.426
you know, the sort of, to the extent that they could, like the grappling that

01:10:37.426 --> 01:10:41.446
was going on for them internally and physically and physiologically as they

01:10:41.446 --> 01:10:42.566
were having these experiences.

01:10:43.046 --> 01:10:47.366
But my own experience that there was, I could speak about that with the most

01:10:47.366 --> 01:10:52.606
intimacy and the most authority because I could say what that was like for me,

01:10:52.746 --> 01:10:56.526
what it was like to be in my body when I was breastfeeding my child and somebody

01:10:56.526 --> 01:10:59.946
said that I didn't belong in the human community, right?

01:11:00.106 --> 01:11:05.646
So I think it was, it felt important and sort of additive, I hope,

01:11:06.146 --> 01:11:10.126
I guess only the readers can say, in terms of being able to achieve that kind

01:11:10.126 --> 01:11:11.766
of overarching goal for the project,

01:11:11.966 --> 01:11:20.686
which is to slow down and to more precisely and intimately go inside the person

01:11:20.686 --> 01:11:22.466
who is experiencing this kind

01:11:22.466 --> 01:11:29.826
of harm and to really sort of show how it taxes a brain, a body, a life.

01:11:30.346 --> 01:11:37.146
So which out of all those stories, which one resonated with you the most?

01:11:37.286 --> 01:11:41.886
Which one, you know, impacted you the most? Yeah, yeah.

01:11:42.946 --> 01:11:45.786
So that's a great question. I mean, I think,

01:11:46.286 --> 01:11:50.426
I mean, they all, I mean, obviously, you know, all of them feel like they were,

01:11:50.726 --> 01:11:54.966
I feel, you know, this is an issue going back again to that quote in the beginning,

01:11:55.166 --> 01:11:58.786
my icebreaker question around the sort of notion of complaint, right?

01:11:58.906 --> 01:12:02.886
That you can't, that if you hear somebody complaining, they cannot be heard.

01:12:03.006 --> 01:12:08.286
You cannot hear that person because you're not taking their pain or the,

01:12:08.486 --> 01:12:11.086
you know, whatever the emotion is that they're trying to express seriously.

01:12:11.206 --> 01:12:17.086
You're not engaging seriously with that emotion. I think that it's it's very

01:12:17.086 --> 01:12:22.186
important to say that I feel an enormous amount of gratitude towards all the

01:12:22.186 --> 01:12:25.346
subjects because it is not easy to talk about this publicly.

01:12:25.346 --> 01:12:29.726
I think particularly because there is a feeling in the culture that like.

01:12:31.113 --> 01:12:34.753
This is just what happens online. This is just what we're going to deal with,

01:12:34.793 --> 01:12:37.093
and we're stuck with it, and that sense of inevitability.

01:12:37.353 --> 01:12:41.873
And so what is the point? What is the point of lamenting this if nothing is

01:12:41.873 --> 01:12:45.193
ever going to change, and this is the culture, and these are the norms?

01:12:45.413 --> 01:12:50.553
And I fundamentally disagree with that. I think we human beings built the internet,

01:12:50.753 --> 01:12:55.593
and we built language, and we built systems, and we can change systems,

01:12:55.693 --> 01:12:58.893
and we can change the boundaries around all sorts of things.

01:12:58.893 --> 01:13:03.453
But I think that, you know, all of the people that I interviewed were sort of

01:13:03.453 --> 01:13:08.413
speaking in spite of this attitude, I think, that is pretty pervasive,

01:13:08.713 --> 01:13:11.873
especially now also as, like, we're talking, the conversation's changing.

01:13:12.013 --> 01:13:15.833
Now we're talking about AI and all these things. And even though that absolutely

01:13:15.833 --> 01:13:19.873
intersects with the issue of online abuse, I think there's a real sense that,

01:13:19.953 --> 01:13:24.373
like, I'm beating, you know, I'm beating a dead horse, right?

01:13:24.373 --> 01:13:28.653
So I feel very grateful to every subject because it's not easy to speak about this.

01:13:28.773 --> 01:13:32.073
It's not easy to speak about this honestly, especially when people are just

01:13:32.073 --> 01:13:35.753
going to accuse you of complaining and tell you that nothing's going to change.

01:13:35.753 --> 01:13:40.933
But I do think that because most of this book was written prior to the 2024

01:13:40.933 --> 01:13:47.693
election, I have been now reflecting over the last, you know, almost year.

01:13:48.153 --> 01:13:50.773
Thinking about the book, thinking about the political moment we're in.

01:13:50.953 --> 01:13:56.553
And there is a story, there is one story that I think about often because of

01:13:56.553 --> 01:13:59.133
just a single quote, like just like one thing that they said that,

01:13:59.253 --> 01:14:04.273
you know, just those things stay with you. And it's in chapter two of the book.

01:14:04.453 --> 01:14:09.653
Each chapter profiles a person who has experienced online abuse and then kind

01:14:09.653 --> 01:14:14.653
of uses that story to explore some sort of larger issue, sociological,

01:14:14.853 --> 01:14:16.233
political, psychological.

01:14:16.693 --> 01:14:20.533
And then it kind of drills down to how that person coped with the experience.

01:14:20.533 --> 01:14:26.213
And in chapter two, I profile a feminist comedian by the name of Maria Dakotis.

01:14:26.333 --> 01:14:31.073
And she, it was so interesting because, because she's a comedian,

01:14:31.073 --> 01:14:34.733
I think I had an idea in my mind of how that conversation was going to go.

01:14:34.853 --> 01:14:38.793
And I thought she would be very, I don't know, I thought we were discussing,

01:14:39.093 --> 01:14:42.253
I thought we would discuss something serious, but there would be a lightheartedness

01:14:42.253 --> 01:14:43.473
to it. I don't know what I was thinking.

01:14:43.773 --> 01:14:47.173
It was not, she wasn't, there was no laughing. It was not funny.

01:14:47.353 --> 01:14:49.873
Like she was very disturbed.

01:14:50.593 --> 01:14:53.293
By what happened to her, you know, essentially in her roles,

01:14:53.413 --> 01:14:58.433
you know, in her work as a female comedian, she gets a ton of harassment online and off.

01:14:58.813 --> 01:15:04.313
And, you know, you sort of sometimes the same scholar who wrote that,

01:15:04.873 --> 01:15:07.433
you know, that has that quote from that book Complaints, Sarah Ahmed,

01:15:07.633 --> 01:15:12.653
also writes about this idea of the feminist snap, when you just can't take it and you snap.

01:15:12.893 --> 01:15:17.833
And then the problem being that that that whatever you do when you snap becomes,

01:15:17.833 --> 01:15:22.933
you know, it gets sort of pointed out as the problem rather than whatever the

01:15:22.933 --> 01:15:25.793
violence was that made you kind of snap in the first place.

01:15:25.953 --> 01:15:29.533
And so Maria had gotten basically a bunch of.

01:15:30.286 --> 01:15:34.506
From a male user, unsolicited, you know,

01:15:34.826 --> 01:15:41.486
graphic pictures of this man's genitals and posted it on, decided to post it

01:15:41.486 --> 01:15:45.426
on Instagram and on X for different reasons.

01:15:45.706 --> 01:15:50.466
Some of it was related to safety. She was scared this person was going to find her and hurt her.

01:15:50.586 --> 01:15:53.386
And she was like, there was something about wanting to expose this person,

01:15:53.506 --> 01:15:58.046
this username and get that out there. And also she was so sick of it.

01:15:58.186 --> 01:16:03.186
She was so sick and tired of every time that she tries to make art or that she

01:16:03.186 --> 01:16:06.626
does make art or she shares art that somebody,

01:16:06.986 --> 01:16:11.806
some guy comes in and, you know, sends her a picture like this or calls her

01:16:11.806 --> 01:16:15.426
a slur or tells her that she's not funny and not in that way.

01:16:15.426 --> 01:16:18.306
Right obviously in a much more like you know sort of terrible brutal

01:16:18.306 --> 01:16:20.966
and graphic way but one of the things that she said to me

01:16:20.966 --> 01:16:26.626
that has stuck with me so much in the last year it was that she she says at

01:16:26.626 --> 01:16:31.466
one point to me that when we're talking about the antagonists and like kind

01:16:31.466 --> 01:16:35.626
of why they do this and that's not the focus of the book at all but she was

01:16:35.626 --> 01:16:40.626
saying that you know they want they want They want me to disappear.

01:16:41.246 --> 01:16:46.766
They want me to take it upon. They want us to take it upon ourselves to disappear.

01:16:47.226 --> 01:16:52.726
And I think that that notion of disappearing is just very much been on my mind.

01:16:52.866 --> 01:16:54.986
And I'm sure on other people's minds, you know, whether it's,

01:16:55.106 --> 01:17:00.506
you know, somebody who gets deported for writing something in a college newspaper

01:17:00.506 --> 01:17:05.946
or, you know, just everything that's going on with ICE right now.

01:17:05.946 --> 01:17:11.886
Or people, you know, just not being, not only not being able to speak,

01:17:12.106 --> 01:17:14.806
but the consequences for speech, right?

01:17:15.026 --> 01:17:18.846
Being that we're going to hide you away.

01:17:20.286 --> 01:17:23.426
Families can't even find you, right? There's so many things kind of happening

01:17:23.426 --> 01:17:29.006
here. But I think that that idea of not only are you not going to be part of

01:17:29.006 --> 01:17:32.866
public or civic discourse, but like you're going to disappear completely.

01:17:32.886 --> 01:17:39.226
And I think that's just a very scary and not sort of outsized fear. Right.

01:17:39.506 --> 01:17:44.426
Kind of in a moment like this. So I think her that quote, really,

01:17:44.646 --> 01:17:49.826
and what she said was just feels very prescient and very true,

01:17:50.066 --> 01:17:51.966
I guess, to the to the moment. Yeah.

01:17:52.406 --> 01:17:56.726
All right. So I got a couple more questions. In chapter seven of the book,

01:17:56.886 --> 01:18:01.826
you delve into the intersection of online harassment, misogyny and white supremacy.

01:18:02.246 --> 01:18:07.026
Can you explain how these systems of oppression work together to shape women's

01:18:07.026 --> 01:18:09.466
experiences of online violence?

01:18:10.661 --> 01:18:12.641
Yeah, you say you want me to elaborate. Okay, yes.

01:18:14.721 --> 01:18:20.241
Yeah, I mean, I think it was really, I don't think it was very important in

01:18:20.241 --> 01:18:26.441
this project to say really out the gate that we're not just talking about misogyny.

01:18:26.721 --> 01:18:29.261
Like, that's just not what we're talking about. And I think that,

01:18:29.361 --> 01:18:32.561
you know, so often, and there's been research on this, you know,

01:18:32.681 --> 01:18:37.141
particularly around Gamergate, which is now, gosh, you know, over 10 years ago now.

01:18:37.301 --> 01:18:41.781
But that was a huge sort of cultural inflection point in our understanding of online abuse.

01:18:41.781 --> 01:18:48.321
And a lot of the mainstream coverage of that moment was very much around misogyny.

01:18:48.321 --> 01:18:53.221
And so when a lot of people were getting their first kind of real education

01:18:53.221 --> 01:18:58.841
on how toxic the internet is for women, it was very much a conversation about

01:18:58.841 --> 01:19:02.461
misogyny. And I think also about certain kinds of perpetration, right?

01:19:02.641 --> 01:19:08.661
So men, certain kinds of men coming for, you know, in that case with Gamergate,

01:19:08.801 --> 01:19:13.241
it was mostly the victims that were most visible were white women.

01:19:13.241 --> 01:19:16.321
And so I think there's been a real, I

01:19:16.321 --> 01:19:22.021
mean, there has been a real sort of misunderstanding around what this is.

01:19:22.201 --> 01:19:26.861
And obviously now online abuse is a problem that sort of spans the ideological

01:19:26.861 --> 01:19:28.401
and political spectrum, right?

01:19:28.561 --> 01:19:31.941
But my book is very concerned with online abuse that,

01:19:32.743 --> 01:19:37.683
that perpetuates hierarchies, right? Hierarchies of power, online abuse, it ranks human life.

01:19:38.543 --> 01:19:46.243
And so it was very important for me out the gate to try to offer,

01:19:46.543 --> 01:19:50.323
I guess, a corrective to that idea, right?

01:19:50.463 --> 01:19:54.483
Because again, if we think about some of the people who were,

01:19:54.663 --> 01:19:59.623
you know, I mean, now, you know, we see that Black women are disproportionately

01:19:59.623 --> 01:20:01.423
targeted for online abuse.

01:20:01.423 --> 01:20:04.243
I mean, there's stats all over the book, like about, you know,

01:20:04.583 --> 01:20:07.683
black female politicians, journalists experiencing, you know,

01:20:07.763 --> 01:20:10.903
much higher rates of harassment than their white female counterparts.

01:20:10.903 --> 01:20:15.443
If we think about some of the people who were, I guess, the quote unquote canaries

01:20:15.443 --> 01:20:17.803
in the coal miner talking about this issue.

01:20:18.603 --> 01:20:22.383
You know, long before it had entered, you know, sort of mainstream consciousness,

01:20:22.443 --> 01:20:26.603
we're talking again about many black women who were calling out the way that

01:20:26.603 --> 01:20:32.903
these platforms can be weaponized to spread disinformation and misinformation, which has had huge,

01:20:33.043 --> 01:20:38.203
huge, huge consequences for the political process, for the democratic, you know,

01:20:38.383 --> 01:20:41.763
for the experiment, the democratic experiment, right?

01:20:41.983 --> 01:20:47.743
Like, so I wanted to very early on say, you know, yes, it's a problem of misogyny,

01:20:48.343 --> 01:20:56.963
but this is also an issue of white supremacy and all of the systems with which that intertwines,

01:20:57.063 --> 01:21:01.343
which is why I wrote a book about women, because that was the experience that

01:21:01.343 --> 01:21:04.023
I could speak to, again, with the most intimacy and authority.

01:21:04.203 --> 01:21:08.883
But this is a problem that, again, is disproportionately affecting certain groups

01:21:08.883 --> 01:21:13.523
of people online, marginalized people online, women, people of color,

01:21:13.963 --> 01:21:15.523
you know, queer folks, trans folks, right?

01:21:15.783 --> 01:21:22.503
And so actually chapter one profiles a young black woman who had an experience

01:21:22.503 --> 01:21:26.843
of online abuse while she was studying dance at a predominantly white liberal

01:21:26.843 --> 01:21:29.223
arts college in the Northeast.

01:21:29.223 --> 01:21:33.663
And I think it was really important to use her experience to show that,

01:21:33.783 --> 01:21:35.923
you know, the things that people were saying to her.

01:21:36.867 --> 01:21:41.687
Yes, of course they were sexist, but they were calling her the N-word.

01:21:43.247 --> 01:21:49.827
And the reason she was being called that was because she had experienced what

01:21:49.827 --> 01:21:54.127
she perceived to be racism in her dance program,

01:21:54.327 --> 01:22:00.007
wrote an op-ed about it for her school newspaper, and then was abused by essentially the student body.

01:22:00.007 --> 01:22:06.487
And they were upset that she was a Black woman in a predominantly white space

01:22:06.487 --> 01:22:11.387
who was not following the rules for how or the norms of behavior,

01:22:11.527 --> 01:22:16.587
right, around how Black people and particularly Black women are supposed to

01:22:16.587 --> 01:22:21.127
behave in those spaces in order to be safe,

01:22:21.347 --> 01:22:25.147
right, or to be respected or to be able to be allowed in those spaces at all.

01:22:25.627 --> 01:22:28.447
And so so yeah so i i think it was it was very

01:22:28.447 --> 01:22:31.207
important in this project as a whole but especially just kind

01:22:31.207 --> 01:22:34.047
of right out the gate which is why i do profile this young black

01:22:34.047 --> 01:22:37.767
woman in chapter one to to sort of stress that yes

01:22:37.767 --> 01:22:41.547
this is misogyny but this is so much bigger

01:22:41.547 --> 01:22:44.327
and more than that which is why this is

01:22:44.327 --> 01:22:48.407
you know this is an issue that doesn't this is why you know you write a book

01:22:48.407 --> 01:22:53.567
right not just a story because this is just such a huge issue that that again

01:22:53.567 --> 01:23:01.287
sort of intersects with so many systems of oppression yeah so when when people

01:23:01.287 --> 01:23:02.987
finish reading this book.

01:23:03.687 --> 01:23:06.647
What do you want them to take away from

01:23:06.647 --> 01:23:09.487
it yeah I mean I had I actually

01:23:09.487 --> 01:23:12.227
read like a I was gonna say I was gonna say one

01:23:12.227 --> 01:23:14.967
thing and then I read somebody like a reader had like

01:23:14.967 --> 01:23:18.427
written a review on Goodreads that said something positive about

01:23:18.427 --> 01:23:22.987
the book but then at the end was kind of like you know this the the solutions

01:23:22.987 --> 01:23:27.527
she you know she writes about her like a kind of flimsy like she and i was like

01:23:27.527 --> 01:23:31.647
you know let's kind of like i'll take it because the truth is that in many ways

01:23:31.647 --> 01:23:36.567
the point of this book and what i wanted people to take away from this was was really.

01:23:37.687 --> 01:23:45.827
For them to feel very deeply to to to deepen their understanding of the experience

01:23:45.827 --> 01:23:48.827
of the abuse Like that was the primary goal.

01:23:49.067 --> 01:23:55.387
And so or or to and to really validate the experience of the abuse for people

01:23:55.387 --> 01:24:00.947
who've who've been, you know, who've been harmed in these in these spaces and to see those stories,

01:24:01.347 --> 01:24:05.867
you know, sort of part of, you know, a much larger kind of narrative. Right.

01:24:06.367 --> 01:24:11.347
But then you feel sort of I think you do feel cynical and frustrated,

01:24:11.347 --> 01:24:13.507
you know, at the end of something like that.

01:24:13.587 --> 01:24:18.087
And so I think I did feel like a compulsion to be like, OK, here are some things we can do.

01:24:19.313 --> 01:24:25.733
And I don't and my book is not a book that delves very deeply into how we can,

01:24:25.813 --> 01:24:31.213
you know, sort of break down, improve, reform the systems. There are other books about that.

01:24:31.593 --> 01:24:38.533
This book, I hope, will serve as, yeah, I think to really give a language and

01:24:38.533 --> 01:24:40.833
a vocabulary to the experience.

01:24:40.833 --> 01:24:47.273
And then I think because I don't think you can agitate for demand the reforms,

01:24:47.273 --> 01:24:53.693
you know, unless you really feel like there is harm being created in these spaces

01:24:53.693 --> 01:24:54.853
that's worth addressing.

01:24:54.853 --> 01:24:57.573
And so maybe that's what I hope people will do.

01:24:57.753 --> 01:25:01.193
You know, we'll sort of walk away from the book with this idea.

01:25:01.313 --> 01:25:07.813
I hope they will walk away with the belief that this is not an acceptable way to live,

01:25:07.993 --> 01:25:16.953
that in the long run, we're not going to get to the kind of world society that

01:25:16.953 --> 01:25:23.773
we sort of deserve if we allow abuse like this to flourish in these spaces.

01:25:23.773 --> 01:25:28.753
And so I guess that would be the hope that people feel who've experienced it

01:25:28.753 --> 01:25:34.193
feel seen, that people who haven't experienced it can see more clearly what

01:25:34.193 --> 01:25:35.293
is happening in these spaces.

01:25:35.293 --> 01:25:42.233
And that ultimately it plants that seed of maybe doubt that these things are

01:25:42.233 --> 01:25:49.853
inevitable, that they are immutable, because I don't think that they are. All right.

01:25:50.073 --> 01:25:52.953
So Alia Dastagir.

01:25:55.113 --> 01:25:57.293
Thank you for coming on.

01:25:58.581 --> 01:26:03.461
I really, really enjoyed the discussion, and I can tell that we could go on

01:26:03.461 --> 01:26:06.301
for a long time if we were allowed to.

01:26:06.681 --> 01:26:11.141
The name of the book, again, is To Those Who Have Confused You to Be a Person.

01:26:11.641 --> 01:26:17.261
How can people get the book? How can people reach out to you? All that kind of stuff.

01:26:17.701 --> 01:26:22.181
Yes. So I have a website, aliadosteyer.com. You can send me a message there.

01:26:22.641 --> 01:26:29.341
Reach out to me there. I recently left X. I feel very, very good about it. So I am on Blue Sky.

01:26:29.581 --> 01:26:33.781
But the best way to reach me is my website. The book, you can hopefully buy

01:26:33.781 --> 01:26:37.341
anywhere books are sold, but I encourage you to visit your local bookstore,

01:26:37.621 --> 01:26:39.101
an indie bookstore, even a library.

01:26:39.701 --> 01:26:43.881
And yeah, if people read it and have thoughts about it, I would love to hear

01:26:43.881 --> 01:26:47.661
from them all the things that they felt the book did well and all the things,

01:26:48.021 --> 01:26:49.941
you know, the complexities that maybe escaped me.

01:26:50.281 --> 01:26:54.841
I would love to hear from folks. Well, I told a couple of people that you were

01:26:54.841 --> 01:26:58.881
going to be on the podcast, and those people said, oh, yeah,

01:26:59.001 --> 01:27:00.641
somebody told me to read that book.

01:27:01.221 --> 01:27:07.841
So the word is getting out there, and hopefully this will help continue to get the word out.

01:27:07.841 --> 01:27:12.581
But again, I just want to thank you for what you're doing, the work that you've

01:27:12.581 --> 01:27:19.861
done in the past dealing with mental illness and suicide prevention has been exemplary.

01:27:20.381 --> 01:27:24.861
And, you know, maybe we can, you know, one of the rules is that once you've

01:27:24.861 --> 01:27:26.981
been on, you have an open invitation to come back.

01:27:27.261 --> 01:27:31.921
Oh, awesome. So maybe, you know, we come back, we might need to delve into that

01:27:31.921 --> 01:27:36.541
aspect of your expertise a little bit, but just keep doing what you're doing.

01:27:36.621 --> 01:27:40.881
And I'm glad that you took the time out of what you are doing to come on the podcast.

01:27:41.061 --> 01:27:43.061
I really, really greatly appreciate that.

01:27:43.581 --> 01:27:46.781
Oh, Erik, thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here.

01:27:47.041 --> 01:27:49.201
All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:27:51.920 --> 01:28:10.160
Music.

01:28:10.005 --> 01:28:18.405
We are blessed again with another appearance of the internet law firm known as Pearson and Pearson.

01:28:19.165 --> 01:28:26.125
Yes, Dr. Tracy and Melba are back, and we're going to talk about some cases

01:28:26.125 --> 01:28:31.505
that's going to be coming up in the upcoming Supreme Court docket,

01:28:31.625 --> 01:28:33.405
which will start in October.

01:28:34.065 --> 01:28:38.925
You know, Dr. Tracy Pearson is a legal, political, and cultural analyst and

01:28:38.925 --> 01:28:42.925
strategist who appears weekly on the Popular and Smart and Entertaining radio

01:28:42.925 --> 01:28:44.805
program Tell Me Anything with Dr.

01:28:44.925 --> 01:28:51.925
John Fuglesang, which airs on Sirius XM Progress 127. And Melba is an attorney

01:28:51.925 --> 01:28:55.825
specializing in civil rights and criminal law with an emphasis on policy.

01:28:56.045 --> 01:29:00.505
She is the director of prosecution projects at the Gordon Institute for Public

01:29:00.505 --> 01:29:05.845
Policy and a co-manager for the Prosecutorial Performance Indicators Project

01:29:05.845 --> 01:29:10.025
based in Florida, based at Florida International University.

01:29:10.025 --> 01:29:14.345
And she just got some other kind of title distinction.

01:29:14.345 --> 01:29:18.265
I'll let her explain it when they come on. But ladies and gentlemen,

01:29:18.545 --> 01:29:28.265
it is my distinct honor and privilege to have back on the Internet Law Firm of Pearson and Pearson.

01:29:31.920 --> 01:29:41.040
Music.

01:29:38.705 --> 01:29:41.865
All right, ladies and gentlemen, you wanted them in their back,

01:29:42.025 --> 01:29:44.205
the law firm of Pearson and Pearson.

01:29:44.785 --> 01:29:48.725
Melba, how you doing? I'm doing well, Erik. How are you?

01:29:49.165 --> 01:29:53.905
Fine. I need you to explain your new title and stuff.

01:29:54.773 --> 01:30:00.733
Oh, so I am the chair of the criminal justice section of the American Bar Association,

01:30:00.733 --> 01:30:04.993
which is the largest voluntary bar association in the United States.

01:30:05.133 --> 01:30:11.553
And my section, the criminal justice section, I am basically the leader of 14,000

01:30:11.553 --> 01:30:16.233
attorneys who practice or are somehow connected to the criminal justice space.

01:30:16.233 --> 01:30:21.933
Of course, I'm speaking to you in my personal capacity, but this was an amazing

01:30:21.933 --> 01:30:26.893
honor, and I'm just thrilled to be able to be in this role, especially at this

01:30:26.893 --> 01:30:28.753
very pivotal time in our democracy.

01:30:29.013 --> 01:30:31.753
Well, congratulations on that. Dr. Tracy, how you doing?

01:30:32.253 --> 01:30:37.713
I'm doing great. I don't have any new titles. I'm still at SiriusXM as an analyst

01:30:37.713 --> 01:30:41.973
on Tell Me Everything with John Fuglesang, and we have a lot of everything to

01:30:41.973 --> 01:30:45.033
be told because of everything that's going on right now. Yeah.

01:30:45.473 --> 01:30:49.813
Yeah. We we were talking, ladies and gentlemen, we were talking off air about Jimmy Kimmel.

01:30:50.333 --> 01:30:53.813
And, you know, it's, you know, I'm probably going to say a little something

01:30:53.813 --> 01:30:55.113
about that later on in the podcast.

01:30:55.133 --> 01:31:01.753
But I got the law firm on because Supreme Court is convening in October.

01:31:02.513 --> 01:31:08.713
And I wanted to to talk about a few cases that's going to be on the docket.

01:31:10.053 --> 01:31:13.313
And, of course, have people smarter than me talk about it.

01:31:13.493 --> 01:31:19.533
So let's get right into it. I'm going to go in the order of which they're going to have the arguments.

01:31:20.073 --> 01:31:25.713
Okay. So the first one is going to be the Louisiana electoral districts.

01:31:26.153 --> 01:31:31.113
The courts will hear arguments for a second time in a dispute involving a Louisiana

01:31:31.113 --> 01:31:34.973
electoral map that raised the number of black-majority U.S.

01:31:35.093 --> 01:31:39.133
Congressional districts in the state. The court signaled on August 1st that

01:31:39.133 --> 01:31:43.933
it will assess the legality of a key component of the landmark Voting Rights Act,

01:31:44.033 --> 01:31:48.933
potentially giving its conservative majority a chance to gut a provision enacted

01:31:48.933 --> 01:31:53.793
60 years ago that was intended to prevent racial discrimination in voting.

01:31:54.584 --> 01:31:59.744
Justices heard the arguments in the case on March 24th, but on June 27th,

01:31:59.944 --> 01:32:01.684
ordered that the matter be argued again.

01:32:02.104 --> 01:32:06.164
State officials and civil rights groups have appealed a lower court's ruling

01:32:06.164 --> 01:32:09.724
that found the map laying out Louisiana's six U.S.

01:32:09.824 --> 01:32:14.064
House representative districts with two black majority districts up from one

01:32:14.064 --> 01:32:18.224
previously violated the Constitution's promise of equal protection.

01:32:18.224 --> 01:32:21.404
The arguments are scheduled for October 15th.

01:32:21.484 --> 01:32:25.844
So this is going to be the first one that's going to generate some news.

01:32:26.104 --> 01:32:30.684
So who wants to be the first one to talk about this?

01:32:31.224 --> 01:32:36.264
I mean, I can jump in super quick on this because voting rights is definitely

01:32:36.264 --> 01:32:37.964
something that's very close to my heart.

01:32:38.164 --> 01:32:42.604
I'm very concerned as to what this conservative majority is going to do,

01:32:42.624 --> 01:32:47.164
because, first of all, the reason why we have the Voting Rights Act was because

01:32:47.164 --> 01:32:50.304
of the fact that people of color, specifically Black people,

01:32:50.384 --> 01:32:52.464
were disenfranchised for so many years.

01:32:52.464 --> 01:32:57.904
And so when you have a state like Louisiana, which is pretty much a majority

01:32:57.904 --> 01:33:03.864
minority type of state where there is, you know, large concentrations of African-Americans,

01:33:04.264 --> 01:33:08.264
their vote should be able to count the same way as anyone else's.

01:33:08.364 --> 01:33:12.684
But the whole thing about gerrymandering is that you're basically drawing a

01:33:12.684 --> 01:33:17.444
map in all weird squiggles because you want to make sure that certain people

01:33:17.444 --> 01:33:20.824
are able to preserve power at the expense of others.

01:33:20.824 --> 01:33:27.264
So this map was redrawn to protect the incumbents who may or may not be serving

01:33:27.264 --> 01:33:28.664
all communities equally.

01:33:28.864 --> 01:33:35.264
And so this is very dangerous in terms of people not having a voice and being

01:33:35.264 --> 01:33:42.464
able to truly pick who they want to represent them versus having representatives thrust upon them,

01:33:42.504 --> 01:33:46.544
which is completely contrary to everything we hold here in democracy.

01:33:47.743 --> 01:33:51.203
I couldn't have said that better. I totally, totally agree.

01:33:51.463 --> 01:33:56.803
And it is a problematic case because we, frankly, I don't, we don't,

01:33:56.923 --> 01:34:01.663
I don't know what this court ever is going to do generally. I mean,

01:34:01.783 --> 01:34:03.403
I've seen weird things come out of it.

01:34:04.163 --> 01:34:08.003
And it's a, it's a, I hate to say the word weird time because it's not,

01:34:08.103 --> 01:34:09.583
that's not an accurate statement.

01:34:09.583 --> 01:34:16.403
You know, we see how much the White House is putting pressure on institutions

01:34:16.403 --> 01:34:22.743
and private industry in ways that, frankly, in my lifetime, I have never even conceived of.

01:34:22.923 --> 01:34:29.663
And it's working to a degree. So it's frightening because, you know, being a lawyer,

01:34:29.963 --> 01:34:36.223
being somebody who used to respect the Supreme Court, I really am somewhat perplexed

01:34:36.223 --> 01:34:38.983
as to how they're going to handle this.

01:34:39.123 --> 01:34:43.123
And that's in relation to another issue that's coming up, which I don't know

01:34:43.123 --> 01:34:47.463
if we're going to ever get to on this episode, but because it's going to contradict

01:34:47.463 --> 01:34:49.383
things they've done, they've actually done.

01:34:49.383 --> 01:34:55.223
But in particular, this situation is an example of the weaponization process,

01:34:55.223 --> 01:35:01.583
because the court said, add this extra district, and they appealed,

01:35:01.803 --> 01:35:06.523
and they're saying that that violates the Constitution because it's based on race.

01:35:06.903 --> 01:35:12.723
And so it's really one of these situations where, you know, they're handing

01:35:12.723 --> 01:35:17.203
this conservative court on a platter something that they can crush.

01:35:17.863 --> 01:35:24.303
Absolutely. Yeah. And that can't work. That can't stand because we all have

01:35:24.303 --> 01:35:27.663
a right to have our vote counted and counted equally.

01:35:27.983 --> 01:35:34.323
And when you're doing that sort of gerrymandering to try to disenfranchise people

01:35:34.323 --> 01:35:38.123
who are already disenfranchised in so many, many, many ways,

01:35:38.143 --> 01:35:42.643
it is unconscionable that the court system would be participants in that.

01:35:42.643 --> 01:35:48.463
See, and this is just a political person speaking.

01:35:48.843 --> 01:35:54.563
I think the court's going to approve a map with two black congressional districts

01:35:54.563 --> 01:36:00.463
because since the voting rights people in Louisiana were not happy with the

01:36:00.463 --> 01:36:04.963
map and the Republicans are not happy with the map,

01:36:05.243 --> 01:36:10.303
the Supreme Court's going to find out a legal way to piss both of them off and

01:36:10.303 --> 01:36:12.363
just approve a map that's got two.

01:36:12.643 --> 01:36:18.203
Now, just from the trend I'm watching with this court, if it's a way for them

01:36:18.203 --> 01:36:21.823
to come across and say, and see, we're not totally racist.

01:36:22.003 --> 01:36:24.483
See, we're not totally insensitive to the Voting Rights Act.

01:36:25.263 --> 01:36:28.743
We're we're we're allowing an increase in representation. Right.

01:36:29.303 --> 01:36:33.163
Knowing that both sides are not happy. I think they're going to,

01:36:33.383 --> 01:36:38.683
you know, I don't know what it was that made them decide they wanted to hear it again.

01:36:38.683 --> 01:36:46.823
But that's just I think they're going to be contrary that's the best non-legal term I can use laughing.

01:36:48.059 --> 01:36:52.939
I don't know, because one thing has been for sure in these last,

01:36:52.979 --> 01:36:57.039
and I still can't believe it's only really been like eight months,

01:36:57.239 --> 01:37:03.299
but in the last eight months, the one thing is for sure is that they are retreating

01:37:03.299 --> 01:37:06.679
from all the things that we could rely on them for.

01:37:06.679 --> 01:37:11.939
So the Supreme Court, the federal courts generally, but the Supreme Court especially,

01:37:12.299 --> 01:37:17.639
were always that place of respite for marginalized communities and being like,

01:37:17.759 --> 01:37:20.259
listen, this is in violation of the first, the 14th, the 5th,

01:37:20.319 --> 01:37:22.539
the 6th, whichever amendment you want to pick.

01:37:22.779 --> 01:37:27.579
And usually the Supreme Court will be the ones to give that relief.

01:37:27.899 --> 01:37:32.059
Now we're not seeing that. And since they have a lifetime appointment,

01:37:32.659 --> 01:37:35.239
to use the colloquialism, who's going to check me, boo?

01:37:35.599 --> 01:37:45.279
Right? Like, they literally can execute the Project 2025 plan without any hindrance.

01:37:45.659 --> 01:37:49.619
So I feel like this might be the death knell for the Voting Rights Act.

01:37:50.580 --> 01:37:54.100
The same way that we've seen it, sorry, but the same way we've seen it in,

01:37:54.100 --> 01:37:58.080
you know, Citizens United and some of these other cases where they're gutting

01:37:58.080 --> 01:38:01.560
provisions that were put in place ages ago to protect people.

01:38:01.700 --> 01:38:06.400
They're gutting all that now. So I'm less hopeful. But Tracy, what do you think?

01:38:06.800 --> 01:38:10.460
Yeah, no, I agree. I think one of the things that we think about and I think

01:38:10.460 --> 01:38:14.480
that we just do it intuitively as attorneys is we understand a question presented.

01:38:14.960 --> 01:38:19.140
And when it goes up to the Supreme Court, there's a question or questions presented

01:38:19.140 --> 01:38:20.800
to the court that they have to answer.

01:38:21.000 --> 01:38:26.260
And so the type of analysis you're talking about, Erik, is something that the

01:38:26.260 --> 01:38:28.540
district court would contrive of.

01:38:28.680 --> 01:38:32.680
But the Supreme Court either creates their own question, as we've seen,

01:38:32.820 --> 01:38:39.380
or they have, and it's the traditional way of doing it, is that you give a question

01:38:39.380 --> 01:38:42.600
presented for them to answer and try to hem it in.

01:38:42.600 --> 01:38:46.580
And so the question presented is, did Louisiana's remedial congressional mount,

01:38:46.740 --> 01:38:50.900
which created a second majority black district after the old map was struck

01:38:50.900 --> 01:38:54.820
down, comply with the Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act of 1965,

01:38:54.820 --> 01:38:59.220
or did it cross the line into unconstitutional racial gerrymandering under the

01:38:59.220 --> 01:39:00.980
Equal Protection Clause in the 14th Amendment?

01:39:00.980 --> 01:39:06.040
So what they have done is they have flipped this and they have weaponized the

01:39:06.040 --> 01:39:12.720
Voting Rights Act and the concept of racial gerrymandering as if to protect white votes,

01:39:12.720 --> 01:39:16.280
not what was intended under the Voting Rights Act.

01:39:16.900 --> 01:39:22.540
Yeah, yeah, the old switcheroo. Just a fun fact before we go to the next one.

01:39:22.760 --> 01:39:29.080
The first person that was charged with racial bias under the Voting Rights Act

01:39:29.080 --> 01:39:32.460
was a black man in Mississippi. Just so y'all understand.

01:39:32.940 --> 01:39:38.940
There you go. All right. So the next case is considered a death row inmate.

01:39:39.120 --> 01:39:44.700
The court on June 6th decided to hear an appeal by Alabama officials of a judicial

01:39:44.700 --> 01:39:50.400
decision that a man convicted of a 1997 murder is intellectually disabled.

01:39:50.720 --> 01:39:55.060
A finding that spared him from the death penalty as they press ahead with the

01:39:55.060 --> 01:39:57.820
Republican governed state's bid to execute him.

01:39:57.820 --> 01:40:03.480
A lower court ruled that Joseph Clifton Smith is intellectually disabled based

01:40:03.480 --> 01:40:07.760
on its analysis of his IQ test scores and expert testimony.

01:40:08.560 --> 01:40:15.220
Under a 2002 Supreme Court president, executing an intellectually disabled person

01:40:15.220 --> 01:40:19.560
violates the Constitution's 8th Amendment bar on cruel and unusual punishment.

01:40:19.800 --> 01:40:24.460
The arguments are scheduled for November 4th, Election Day. Okay.

01:40:27.140 --> 01:40:29.040
Dr. Tracy, you want to jump on that one first?

01:40:29.910 --> 01:40:37.750
Oh, gosh. Yeah. So the 2002 decision was sort of the basis, the base.

01:40:37.910 --> 01:40:40.890
And then there were some refinements that happened along the way.

01:40:41.150 --> 01:40:48.250
And there was a 2014 case that dealt with Florida striking down rigid IQ tests.

01:40:48.470 --> 01:40:53.910
There was other cases that said that Texas couldn't rely on outdated stereotypes

01:40:53.910 --> 01:41:04.650
or any layperson sort of opinions or concepts about individuals who may fit into this category.

01:41:05.050 --> 01:41:08.410
And so there was a lot of cases that came after Atkins.

01:41:08.610 --> 01:41:14.350
But where this is, the IQ test matters, and it has what is called an error rate.

01:41:14.730 --> 01:41:20.590
And it is designed, these tests are not, tests are not, you know, cut and dry.

01:41:20.850 --> 01:41:24.650
They have an error rate to them because of how they are given,

01:41:25.030 --> 01:41:28.570
how they are scored, et cetera, and so on.

01:41:28.650 --> 01:41:31.470
I mean, I could talk for hours on this. I have a doctorate in education.

01:41:31.830 --> 01:41:36.230
But the crux of it is that it has a plus or minus five-point error rate.

01:41:36.630 --> 01:41:45.130
And the issue here is, you know, is this fuzz factor that you might consider,

01:41:45.270 --> 01:41:46.670
sort of think of it as a fuzz factor.

01:41:47.630 --> 01:41:51.990
Is that in accordance with their law?

01:41:52.130 --> 01:41:56.330
Is it considered to be, you know, cruel and unusual punishment?

01:41:56.710 --> 01:42:01.490
And can you stop the state from doing what it wants to do under their own laws,

01:42:01.650 --> 01:42:02.670
under these circumstances?

01:42:03.430 --> 01:42:10.570
And so, you know, you've got somebody's life on the line. All right. I occupy this space.

01:42:11.030 --> 01:42:14.990
Somebody's life is on the line. I absolutely am opposed to the death penalty,

01:42:15.250 --> 01:42:18.730
I think it's absolutely aberrant and deplorable.

01:42:19.350 --> 01:42:27.930
That aside, when you have someone's life on the line, are we really going to fight about this issue?

01:42:28.150 --> 01:42:31.430
Are we really going to fight about this fuzz factor? Are we really going to

01:42:31.430 --> 01:42:33.410
fight about these error rates, which are real?

01:42:33.890 --> 01:42:40.750
You've got somebody who may, in fact, he has been adjudged as not having basically

01:42:40.750 --> 01:42:47.770
the cognitive of reasoning skills that would be necessary to make that punishment,

01:42:47.770 --> 01:42:51.090
which is the severest punishment,

01:42:51.690 --> 01:42:53.770
appropriate under the circumstances.

01:42:54.290 --> 01:43:03.450
And these cases make me absolutely insane because it's a human being.

01:43:03.650 --> 01:43:06.330
I mean, I never understand the concept of, you know,

01:43:06.530 --> 01:43:09.390
let's say you kill somebody so we'll kill you oh what

01:43:09.390 --> 01:43:13.470
the heck is wrong with people like i just don't i don't i just don't sit in

01:43:13.470 --> 01:43:19.590
that space and so but at the core of it is is is you know what kind of factors

01:43:19.590 --> 01:43:28.990
can they take into consideration and you know as if people are robots as if tests are perfect.

01:43:30.145 --> 01:43:36.085
And just to piggyback on that, I mean, here's the margin of error we're talking about.

01:43:36.365 --> 01:43:40.665
So the person in this case scored 72.

01:43:41.005 --> 01:43:46.505
The cutoff is 70 in the state of Alabama to be deemed to be intellectually disabled.

01:43:46.505 --> 01:43:51.745
So the plaintiff here, sorry, the person involved here, three,

01:43:52.005 --> 01:43:54.705
two, one, the person involved here scored 72.

01:43:55.525 --> 01:44:01.005
And the judge found that with the margin of error, it could be considered a 69.

01:44:01.565 --> 01:44:06.665
But even with that being said, he took into consideration the totality of this

01:44:06.665 --> 01:44:10.725
person's circumstances of, you know, their upbringing of their lack of education

01:44:10.725 --> 01:44:15.505
of, you know, exposure to abuse, things like that. And so he's like, you know what?

01:44:15.625 --> 01:44:18.885
I'm going to err on the side of this person being intellectually disabled.

01:44:19.125 --> 01:44:22.505
And as such, this person should not be put to death.

01:44:22.645 --> 01:44:27.505
But it's so interesting to see this bloodlust that you're so like,

01:44:27.625 --> 01:44:30.365
oh, my gosh, like we just got to fry everybody.

01:44:30.645 --> 01:44:36.785
Right. Like that seems to be the mindset versus, OK, like benefit of the doubt.

01:44:38.065 --> 01:44:42.525
Let's deem this person intellectually disabled because the alternative is the

01:44:42.525 --> 01:44:43.945
person spending their life in prison.

01:44:44.045 --> 01:44:48.945
So it's not like the question is, do we execute them or do they get out, right?

01:44:49.025 --> 01:44:52.245
The question is, do they spend life in prison or are they executed?

01:44:52.445 --> 01:44:56.245
Either way, they're not going to be part of the community.

01:44:56.545 --> 01:45:01.065
There's a worry about recidivism or are other people going to be harmed?

01:45:01.265 --> 01:45:05.705
That's not an issue other than in the prison context. And there's protocols

01:45:05.705 --> 01:45:07.145
for dealing with that as well.

01:45:07.285 --> 01:45:11.385
So if your whole thing is about making sure the community is safe,

01:45:11.765 --> 01:45:13.085
well, the community is safe.

01:45:13.085 --> 01:45:18.285
So is executing this person who in all likelihood is intellectually disabled,

01:45:18.545 --> 01:45:23.365
who is that truly serving other than a governmental bloodlust?

01:45:23.565 --> 01:45:27.465
Well, you know, the truth of the matter is, is that, you know,

01:45:27.585 --> 01:45:31.625
and, you know, this is not a big secret for anybody that knew my political career.

01:45:31.745 --> 01:45:35.965
I introduced bills to eliminate the death penalty in the state of Mississippi.

01:45:36.165 --> 01:45:38.645
And the argument was that, one.

01:45:39.958 --> 01:45:45.038
It's actually more cost-effective to have that person spend the rest of the

01:45:45.038 --> 01:45:49.458
time in jail than it is to go through all these different appeals and all that

01:45:49.458 --> 01:45:51.038
stuff in a short period of time.

01:45:51.178 --> 01:45:56.398
The money that's spent on the litigation piece actually costs more than just

01:45:56.398 --> 01:46:02.558
giving this person, you know, three meals and a cot for the rest of their life.

01:46:02.938 --> 01:46:06.258
And then the other piece is it's not a deterrent.

01:46:06.678 --> 01:46:10.538
If it was a true deterrent, then people would have stopped murdering folks a

01:46:10.538 --> 01:46:14.618
long time ago. It is not a deterrent. So that's a, that's a fallacy.

01:46:14.798 --> 01:46:22.058
And so, you know, but to me, it's just, the first thing I think about when we

01:46:22.058 --> 01:46:24.738
have cases like this is of mice and men.

01:46:24.998 --> 01:46:27.658
And I don't know if y'all remember that book or not, but you know,

01:46:27.758 --> 01:46:31.718
it was like, it was pretty clear that the, and I forget the character's name

01:46:31.718 --> 01:46:36.538
now that's been that long ago, but you know, The kid, the big kid,

01:46:36.618 --> 01:46:39.678
didn't know what he was doing. All he wanted to do was play with his rabbit.

01:46:40.278 --> 01:46:42.558
You know what I'm saying? And he ended up killing a human being.

01:46:42.918 --> 01:46:45.538
And it's like, so we want to execute that person?

01:46:45.978 --> 01:46:50.258
I mean, you know, that's, like you said, I don't understand the bloodlust.

01:46:50.378 --> 01:46:53.178
I don't understand the desire.

01:46:53.378 --> 01:46:55.718
But anyway, that's my soapbox. Go ahead.

01:46:56.738 --> 01:47:03.678
Well, and, you know, not to, well, to delve into the politics behind it is I sit here right now.

01:47:03.918 --> 01:47:09.178
And I think, you know, I, the level of contradiction that is going on right

01:47:09.178 --> 01:47:13.378
now, I, I struggle to process it.

01:47:13.838 --> 01:47:18.878
I'm, you know, you've, you're trying to execute somebody down in Alabama. We both, we all agree.

01:47:18.998 --> 01:47:23.778
We all agree more expensive death penalty, less expensive life in prison.

01:47:24.078 --> 01:47:26.758
And, and people can't wrap their heads around that sometimes.

01:47:27.178 --> 01:47:31.958
And, and so, but, and you all want to save money and you're all about smaller

01:47:31.958 --> 01:47:36.498
government, you're all about doing things for cheap and cutting services from

01:47:36.498 --> 01:47:38.038
people so that you can save money.

01:47:38.138 --> 01:47:41.098
I don't know, are you giving my tax money back? But that aside.

01:47:43.438 --> 01:47:45.198
You're going to spend more money,

01:47:46.098 --> 01:47:50.818
It's not going to provide any peace to the family that suffered the loss.

01:47:51.458 --> 01:47:53.838
There is no closure when you lose a family member.

01:47:54.798 --> 01:47:58.918
And, you know, oftentimes these folks are like, yeah, you know, I just want this to stop.

01:47:59.578 --> 01:48:03.098
Sometimes they're not. Sometimes they are. In fact, you know, they should try.

01:48:04.038 --> 01:48:07.058
But it never brings the family peace.

01:48:07.798 --> 01:48:12.318
It destroys another family or other family members on the other side.

01:48:13.138 --> 01:48:17.018
And, you know, in some of these places, they go pick, I think it's in Texas,

01:48:17.138 --> 01:48:19.918
they go pick up somebody off the, you know, who's willing to volunteer to go

01:48:19.918 --> 01:48:23.838
do the execution, you know, to press the button or whatever it is that they

01:48:23.838 --> 01:48:26.318
have to do behind the curtain.

01:48:26.958 --> 01:48:30.998
And, you know, they pay them like 50 bucks or something. I mean, it's historically,

01:48:31.538 --> 01:48:35.618
it's just a, we used a certain word earlier, but it's a vile,

01:48:35.618 --> 01:48:42.558
It's a vile process that is so contradictory to what these people say.

01:48:42.718 --> 01:48:47.218
You know, Rachel Maddow says, watch what they do, not what they say. And it is really that.

01:48:47.418 --> 01:48:51.938
It is, you're spending all of this money to kill somebody. Are you okay?

01:48:52.538 --> 01:48:58.098
Like, what is wrong with you? And so that's where I am from just trying to make

01:48:58.098 --> 01:49:00.898
sense of it. Because I know folks out there are trying to make sense of things right now.

01:49:00.978 --> 01:49:04.838
They really are just reeling. We are reeling as a nation, as individuals,

01:49:05.118 --> 01:49:06.818
trying to make sense of everything that's happening.

01:49:07.018 --> 01:49:12.238
And it's happening federally, and it's happening locally in your states.

01:49:12.558 --> 01:49:14.298
And this is an example of that.

01:49:15.058 --> 01:49:19.158
All right. So elections have consequences. Yeah, that's exactly right.

01:49:19.458 --> 01:49:24.818
So let's I want to say that this is I was going to go to that one,

01:49:24.898 --> 01:49:26.838
but I'm going to go to the tariffs now. OK.

01:49:27.518 --> 01:49:32.558
All right. So the court on September 9th agreed to decide the legality of Trump's

01:49:32.558 --> 01:49:34.838
sweeping global tariffs, setting

01:49:34.838 --> 01:49:39.918
up a major test of one of his boldest assertions of executive power.

01:49:39.918 --> 01:49:42.858
This has been central to his economic and trade agenda.

01:49:43.038 --> 01:49:47.498
It took up the Justice Department's appeal of a lower court's ruling that Trump

01:49:47.498 --> 01:49:52.998
overstepped his authority in imposing most of his tariffs under a federal law meant for emergencies.

01:49:53.318 --> 01:49:58.658
The case implicates trillions of dollars in customs duties over the next decade. The U.S.

01:49:58.758 --> 01:50:03.278
Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit in Washington ruled that Trump overreached

01:50:03.278 --> 01:50:10.378
and invoking a 1977 law known as the International Emergency Economic Powers Act to impose tariffs.

01:50:10.618 --> 01:50:16.378
That ruling came in challenges by five small businesses in 12 U.S. states.

01:50:16.758 --> 01:50:21.058
The arguments also will include a separate challenge brought by a toy company.

01:50:21.458 --> 01:50:25.978
And there's no set date for that. They just said the first week in November for those arguments.

01:50:26.815 --> 01:50:31.255
Who wants to start on that one? I'd be happy to rant about that for a minute.

01:50:33.495 --> 01:50:38.675
Okay. I actually drew a little drawing. It was probably out on Blue Sky of like,

01:50:38.675 --> 01:50:41.375
if somebody could just put this in front of his face, this might help.

01:50:41.435 --> 01:50:42.395
And it was like stick figures.

01:50:42.615 --> 01:50:46.175
And it's, we pay the tariffs. Okay. We pay the tariffs.

01:50:46.635 --> 01:50:51.835
And so the prices go up. So let's just put that aside. But so basically it comes

01:50:51.835 --> 01:51:00.135
down to whether whether Congress has has delegated their authority to tax because tariffs are a tax,

01:51:00.335 --> 01:51:04.555
whether Congress has delegated their authority to tax to the president through

01:51:04.555 --> 01:51:08.295
this particular statute, which is the International Emergency Economic Powers Act.

01:51:08.995 --> 01:51:13.675
And the courts have said, no, no, that that that hasn't happened.

01:51:13.675 --> 01:51:18.475
And I want to call and raise attention to, there were some cases last term about,

01:51:18.615 --> 01:51:22.055
I think it was the Environmental Protection Agency, but you can correct me if I'm wrong,

01:51:22.215 --> 01:51:27.095
about how they were very, very specific in this particular statute that Congress

01:51:27.095 --> 01:51:29.995
had not delegated its authority to do certain things.

01:51:29.995 --> 01:51:33.775
It had to do with rulemaking. And so in this situation,

01:51:34.215 --> 01:51:38.295
the real issue is, has Congress, not in practical terms, okay,

01:51:38.355 --> 01:51:40.695
not like, you know, I don't know, the Republicans don't care,

01:51:40.855 --> 01:51:48.115
but in actual terms, have they delegated their actual constitutional authority to tax?

01:51:48.115 --> 01:51:52.275
Because there's an issue having to do with major questions.

01:51:52.615 --> 01:51:56.995
And there's this major question concept out there, which is that when it's a

01:51:56.995 --> 01:52:03.935
major question, is the justification for the behavior,

01:52:04.175 --> 01:52:15.035
so the justification for these tariffs, so ambiguous and vague that it doesn't over...

01:52:15.755 --> 01:52:23.835
It doesn't exceed or stop the authority that exists in other areas of law.

01:52:23.975 --> 01:52:31.135
So it doesn't overcome the statutory requirements and details in that statute.

01:52:31.295 --> 01:52:33.995
And so that's what this court is going to have to decide.

01:52:34.295 --> 01:52:40.335
And I think that, I mean, it's pretty darn clear that Congress is the purse.

01:52:40.495 --> 01:52:42.535
I mean, at least that's what I learned in elementary school.

01:52:42.655 --> 01:52:48.535
Maybe it's changed. and that he can't just willy-nilly write these stupid...

01:52:48.535 --> 01:52:52.495
I'm trying not to curse here. I can curse on SiriusXM really fiercely...

01:52:53.984 --> 01:52:58.984
They can write these really silly, stupid, guppy-ish sort of executive orders

01:52:58.984 --> 01:53:07.624
that are not the kind of law that is enduring and effective and just change

01:53:07.624 --> 01:53:09.944
whole swaths of how we operate.

01:53:09.944 --> 01:53:13.784
You can't modify the Constitution with your pen, Mr. President.

01:53:14.244 --> 01:53:19.304
It takes a whole lot of effort to do that. And so his whole effort of being

01:53:19.304 --> 01:53:25.044
a, quote, strong man who is very weak with these tariffs and imposing his will

01:53:25.044 --> 01:53:27.004
on other people and other nations,

01:53:27.324 --> 01:53:29.684
you've got some guardrails.

01:53:29.884 --> 01:53:33.704
And the Supreme Court's going to have to decide whether they've got they've

01:53:33.704 --> 01:53:37.244
got the cojones to to say, no, Mr. President, you can't do that.

01:53:37.864 --> 01:53:42.524
And the sad part is they should be able to because, again, it's a lifetime appointment.

01:53:42.524 --> 01:53:47.004
And that's why the justices on the Supreme Court have a lifetime appointment

01:53:47.004 --> 01:53:50.864
to insulate them from politics, from agendas, from administrations.

01:53:51.064 --> 01:53:54.764
So they need to use that power wisely and accordingly.

01:53:55.064 --> 01:53:59.124
Let's see what happens. But my thing is here, what's the emergency?

01:53:59.344 --> 01:54:03.124
Because this is under the Emergency Powers Act. What's the emergency?

01:54:03.564 --> 01:54:07.924
There was no, we weren't at war. We weren't in the middle of a famine.

01:54:08.304 --> 01:54:11.464
There wasn't pestilence. Like we were going through revelations,

01:54:11.744 --> 01:54:15.464
like, you know, like locusts.

01:54:15.724 --> 01:54:19.264
You know, so there was no. There's some that work in the White House, but no.

01:54:21.864 --> 01:54:27.264
But what emergency justifies putting in place 50 percent tariffs,

01:54:27.464 --> 01:54:30.204
25 percent tariffs, starting trade wars?

01:54:30.364 --> 01:54:35.444
Like, I understand the political. OK, maybe, you know, you want to leverage

01:54:35.444 --> 01:54:38.824
something so you can get better, you know, rates or whatever.

01:54:38.824 --> 01:54:41.164
OK, fine. I get that as a general premise.

01:54:41.524 --> 01:54:47.964
But an emergency power means like there's literally a problem and it's only

01:54:47.964 --> 01:54:49.564
for a short amount of time.

01:54:49.744 --> 01:54:52.324
So once the emergency passes, then

01:54:52.324 --> 01:54:56.204
the power goes back to whoever it's designated, in this case, Congress.

01:54:56.464 --> 01:55:00.604
So in my opinion, there was never an emergency. But even if you said there was

01:55:00.604 --> 01:55:04.344
an emergency, eight months later, it's not still an emergency. Right. Or whatever.

01:55:04.504 --> 01:55:07.584
Three months, four months later. Right. It's not still there's no emergency

01:55:07.584 --> 01:55:10.064
that's pending that would have required that. So there's that.

01:55:10.244 --> 01:55:15.124
And then secondly, we just have to look at the whole separation of powers.

01:55:15.524 --> 01:55:19.684
You've got the executive, you've got the legislative and you've got the judiciary.

01:55:20.104 --> 01:55:25.804
Right. And three very separate branches of power who operate as checks and balances on each other.

01:55:25.804 --> 01:55:30.644
And if you have a situation where the president is overreaching and putting

01:55:30.644 --> 01:55:37.404
his hands into that of the legislative branch or that of the judiciary branch, well,

01:55:37.724 --> 01:55:42.684
that negates that whole concept of checks and balances. So, again.

01:55:43.541 --> 01:55:47.441
Are we a country with separation of powers as set forth by the Constitution

01:55:47.441 --> 01:55:54.001
and, you know, 250 years of precedent, or are we about to abandon that and become

01:55:54.001 --> 01:55:55.301
a whole different country altogether?

01:55:55.981 --> 01:56:02.461
And on top of that, you know, this is why I love talking about the U.S.

01:56:02.561 --> 01:56:04.321
Supreme Court and these issues.

01:56:04.641 --> 01:56:07.461
But simultaneously, I'm a trial lawyer at heart.

01:56:07.841 --> 01:56:11.541
And so trial lawyers are, you know, it's sort of jungle rules out here.

01:56:11.641 --> 01:56:14.541
We can make all sorts of arguments. And one of the things that just keeps ringing

01:56:14.541 --> 01:56:18.961
in my head like a red blinking light is, dude, you made agreements with many

01:56:18.961 --> 01:56:21.621
of these people in your last term. What are you doing?

01:56:22.121 --> 01:56:26.181
Like you made these agreements and now you're just like, oh,

01:56:26.341 --> 01:56:27.521
no, now this is terrible.

01:56:27.881 --> 01:56:31.181
And it's like, well, OK, then you're terrible. Great. We both agree on that.

01:56:31.341 --> 01:56:36.601
But this is just outrageous that, I mean, the prices have gone up so massively.

01:56:36.801 --> 01:56:41.341
And in fact, I bought something the other day and the invoice accounted for

01:56:41.341 --> 01:56:44.561
the tariff. It put a line in for the tariff.

01:56:44.821 --> 01:56:54.381
If every freaking company out there right now changed their pricing signs,

01:56:54.581 --> 01:56:55.561
say in the grocery store.

01:56:55.741 --> 01:56:58.501
Okay, so the price of your cereal is X.

01:56:58.761 --> 01:57:02.961
The tariff is this. And this is what you're actually paying for it.

01:57:03.481 --> 01:57:05.281
Oh, we would see a response.

01:57:05.841 --> 01:57:09.741
Well, Amazon tried to do that. And the president called him,

01:57:09.941 --> 01:57:12.041
I talked to my good buddy, Jeff Bezos.

01:57:12.481 --> 01:57:16.361
And, you know, we're not going to do that. That was just, and then Jeff Bezos

01:57:16.361 --> 01:57:18.721
comes out. Oh, that's just something was an internal discussion.

01:57:18.981 --> 01:57:25.801
It really got, everybody gets on their back and wiggles. They're like, come scratch my belly.

01:57:26.161 --> 01:57:32.081
And they just capitulate. And again, it's sad because it would have really broken

01:57:32.081 --> 01:57:35.021
out and hit home with people.

01:57:35.281 --> 01:57:39.121
How much more they're spending, because maybe you don't remember how much eggs

01:57:39.121 --> 01:57:42.941
were when you went to the grocery two weeks ago, right? And you don't really

01:57:42.941 --> 01:57:44.081
have that frame of reference.

01:57:44.261 --> 01:57:46.861
But you're like, dang, everything just kind of feels higher.

01:57:47.061 --> 01:57:52.901
But when you have that line item, where it's like these flip-flops are $10,

01:57:53.621 --> 01:58:00.041
and because they're coming from China, $5 for the tariff, so now your flip-flops are now $15,

01:58:00.761 --> 01:58:05.481
now people understand that this wasn't just some political talking point,

01:58:05.681 --> 01:58:12.581
this has real impact in your life and nobody else is paying the tariff except for you, us, all of us.

01:58:13.301 --> 01:58:16.101
If the Supreme Court allows this to happen...

01:58:16.949 --> 01:58:22.849
What the retailers are going to do is they're going to have these sales.

01:58:23.149 --> 01:58:26.849
They may even try to say, you know, a line item or whatever,

01:58:26.869 --> 01:58:30.949
but they're going to have a sale say, oh, you know, we're going to have a tariff,

01:58:30.949 --> 01:58:33.209
you know, tariff, tariff discount.

01:58:33.409 --> 01:58:37.149
If you sign up for this email or whatever, then they'll just I mean,

01:58:37.249 --> 01:58:38.709
they'll just it's just a game.

01:58:39.029 --> 01:58:43.249
And then the whole deal with with the manipulation of these tariffs,

01:58:43.529 --> 01:58:46.029
he's trying to he's trying to make money.

01:58:46.509 --> 01:58:50.309
That's all this is for him is a grift in the stock market. You just watch how

01:58:50.309 --> 01:58:54.469
the stock market reacts to how he's pushing tariffs and pulling them back.

01:58:54.729 --> 01:58:59.669
It's all manipulation to him. The only emergency is he's still broke in his

01:58:59.669 --> 01:59:01.829
mind and he's trying to get more money.

01:59:01.949 --> 01:59:07.369
That's the only emergency I see. But again, let's move on because I want to get to this one.

01:59:08.429 --> 01:59:12.349
And this particular case, it's fun for me.

01:59:12.509 --> 01:59:16.909
It's a serious case, but it's fun for me because it deals with religion. Right.

01:59:17.489 --> 01:59:22.389
And and and, you know, it just as somebody that has worked in the correctional

01:59:22.389 --> 01:59:25.309
system, it was all is always this.

01:59:25.669 --> 01:59:28.269
Oh, really? So we got to do this. Got to do that. So this case,

01:59:28.429 --> 01:59:34.569
the justices on June 23rd took up a Rastafarian man's bid to sue state prison

01:59:34.569 --> 01:59:39.989
officials in Louisiana after guards held him down and shaved him bald in violation

01:59:39.989 --> 01:59:41.349
of his religious beliefs.

01:59:42.069 --> 01:59:46.129
Damon Landor, whose religion requires him to let his hair grow,

01:59:46.709 --> 01:59:50.629
appealed a lower court's decision to throw out his lawsuit brought under a U.S.

01:59:50.729 --> 01:59:54.749
Law that protects religious infringement by state and local governments.

01:59:55.009 --> 01:59:59.289
The lower court found that this law did not permit Landor to sue individual

01:59:59.289 --> 02:00:01.849
officials for monetary damages.

02:00:02.529 --> 02:00:07.269
The law at issue protects the religious rights of people confined to institutions

02:00:07.269 --> 02:00:08.869
such as prisons and jails.

02:00:09.069 --> 02:00:12.229
And the arguments are scheduled for November the 10th.

02:00:12.849 --> 02:00:16.809
So, Melba, you want to take the lead on this one? Oh, you already know.

02:00:17.029 --> 02:00:22.769
Because while I don't identify as a Rasta, I do wear locks.

02:00:22.929 --> 02:00:28.069
And, you know, there's a lot from the Rastafarian culture that resonates with me.

02:00:28.069 --> 02:00:31.769
So and then, of course, as someone who's worked for the, you know,

02:00:31.829 --> 02:00:38.549
American Civil Liberties Union, like this is like because this is textbook First Amendment.

02:00:39.464 --> 02:00:43.964
The freedom of religion, and that the government shall make no law abridging

02:00:43.964 --> 02:00:47.264
the freedom to practice your religion.

02:00:47.464 --> 02:00:50.984
And so, you know, there's no safety issue here.

02:00:51.184 --> 02:00:55.464
You know, the gentleman involved in this case had, this was his third correctional

02:00:55.464 --> 02:00:57.324
facility where this happened to him.

02:00:57.464 --> 02:01:01.784
The first two, he actually had a copy of the ruling in his hand being like,

02:01:02.064 --> 02:01:03.844
hey, this is part of my religion.

02:01:04.004 --> 02:01:07.564
Here's the law around that. And the first two were like, cool, I do your thing.

02:01:07.564 --> 02:01:11.004
He literally had three weeks left on his sentence and

02:01:11.004 --> 02:01:14.144
he goes to this third facility and that's where he's degraded

02:01:14.144 --> 02:01:18.664
because that's what it is it's degraded he was violated he was physically violated

02:01:18.664 --> 02:01:23.304
i can't even imagine it's almost like biblical when you're thinking you know

02:01:23.304 --> 02:01:29.484
just kind of just being held down and being violated in that way and just like

02:01:29.484 --> 02:01:32.024
you know your your crown has been stripped from you.

02:01:32.244 --> 02:01:36.124
And that's literally what it is from that context.

02:01:36.464 --> 02:01:40.024
So I just, you know, I'm heartbroken for him, number one.

02:01:40.484 --> 02:01:45.644
And, you know, the fact of the matter is, the same way we have these battles

02:01:45.644 --> 02:01:49.804
over making sure people who are of the Muslim or Jewish faith,

02:01:49.884 --> 02:01:52.864
you know, get kosher meals or halal meals while in prison,

02:01:53.144 --> 02:01:56.084
you know, not trying to give pork to somebody who,

02:01:56.404 --> 02:01:59.504
you know, again, that's against their religion, but the guards are doing it

02:01:59.504 --> 02:02:00.964
because it's entertainment for them, right?

02:02:01.644 --> 02:02:06.244
It's about making sure that, number one, people's rights are still preserved

02:02:06.244 --> 02:02:08.444
in the correctional system.

02:02:08.544 --> 02:02:14.404
But number two, again, what does the First Amendment look like in 2025?

02:02:14.764 --> 02:02:20.804
Because we're already seeing attacks on freedom of speech and not ending well, right?

02:02:20.984 --> 02:02:25.144
So if we're crossing off freedom of speech, no, we don't need that anymore.

02:02:26.104 --> 02:02:28.024
Freedom of the press? Oh, we don't need that anymore.

02:02:29.021 --> 02:02:31.181
Now we're going to attack freedom of religion. So basically,

02:02:31.181 --> 02:02:34.881
we're just going to rip up the First Amendment. Better yet, just rip up the whole Constitution.

02:02:35.441 --> 02:02:39.401
Because if you can't get the first one right, if you can't get the rights under

02:02:39.401 --> 02:02:45.001
the First Amendment right, the rest of the Constitution is going to fall away

02:02:45.001 --> 02:02:48.521
the same way. So that's where my mind goes to.

02:02:48.721 --> 02:02:53.201
And again, my heart is just broken for him because to me, it's the same level

02:02:53.201 --> 02:02:58.801
of degradation than if you took a Muslim woman who wore a head covering and

02:02:58.801 --> 02:03:00.501
ripped it off in front of a group of men.

02:03:00.681 --> 02:03:04.781
It's the same level of degradation where you're just like, you know,

02:03:04.881 --> 02:03:10.441
basically in your mind and naked and just your sense of security,

02:03:10.681 --> 02:03:15.461
your sense of identity has been ripped from you in the most violent way possible. Yeah.

02:03:15.741 --> 02:03:20.441
And, you know, Dr. Tracy, before you respond to that, let me just say,

02:03:20.641 --> 02:03:25.601
and this is maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it seems like the issue was not

02:03:25.601 --> 02:03:30.201
that the fact that his rights were violated is the issue.

02:03:30.321 --> 02:03:36.381
It's the fact that they don't want him to be able to go after the guards who cut his hair off.

02:03:36.381 --> 02:03:39.761
But to me the two are agreed but

02:03:39.761 --> 02:03:42.741
to me the two are still interrelated because the slippery

02:03:42.741 --> 02:03:45.821
slope is as follows if you're like well you can't

02:03:45.821 --> 02:03:49.061
get any kind of restitution or

02:03:49.061 --> 02:03:55.421
any kind of closure for your religious rights being violated then that empowers

02:03:55.421 --> 02:03:59.421
bad actors to keep doing this over and over again because there's no accountability

02:03:59.421 --> 02:04:06.381
and then that in turn abridges people's rights to be able to practice their religion freely.

02:04:06.581 --> 02:04:12.161
So to me at all, even though the surface issue is about who they can sue,

02:04:12.381 --> 02:04:14.261
the underlying issue, no matter

02:04:14.261 --> 02:04:17.781
how you cut it, is what First Amendment is going to look like in America.

02:04:18.501 --> 02:04:24.441
I, yes. I mean, any, it's a religious case and it's a First Amendment case.

02:04:24.641 --> 02:04:28.721
Absolutely. But anybody who is listening to this podcast, I want you to imagine

02:04:28.721 --> 02:04:30.561
somebody shaving your head against your will.

02:04:30.861 --> 02:04:34.021
Just sit there and imagine what that might feel like and

02:04:34.021 --> 02:04:37.801
and and how what action you might want to take and especially if you didn't

02:04:37.801 --> 02:04:42.161
have any any power agency in the situation like you know you can't fight back

02:04:42.161 --> 02:04:48.081
you can't hit them you can't you know you can't get out of the building it is

02:04:48.081 --> 02:04:51.521
it is it just sit there with that feeling for a second.

02:04:52.301 --> 02:04:56.021
And so, yes, the issue here is whether, in this case,

02:04:56.261 --> 02:05:04.281
is whether this plaintiff can obtain money damages against the individual people

02:05:04.281 --> 02:05:08.021
who were employees of the government who did this.

02:05:08.361 --> 02:05:14.821
And it goes to a law that exists, which is the Religious Land Use and Institutional Persons Act of 2000.

02:05:15.321 --> 02:05:20.821
And what Congress said in that law is that, no, no, there are no money damages

02:05:20.821 --> 02:05:22.261
available. And it has to do with

02:05:22.261 --> 02:05:27.821
whether a government is able to receive federal money. You must do this.

02:05:28.141 --> 02:05:31.621
In other words, respect religion, let's say. And if you don't,

02:05:31.701 --> 02:05:34.881
then you can't have federal funds to go help, let's say, build your prisons.

02:05:36.001 --> 02:05:40.681
And so that's what this case at its core in front of the court at the issue

02:05:40.681 --> 02:05:42.401
presented is dealing with.

02:05:43.481 --> 02:05:46.321
And I want people to think about this from the perspective of,

02:05:46.381 --> 02:05:51.861
look, if you're employed, if you're employed for a company, that company indemnifies you.

02:05:52.061 --> 02:05:56.881
In California, there's actually a statute that says you are indemnified for

02:05:56.881 --> 02:05:59.161
any actions by your employer.

02:05:59.321 --> 02:06:04.341
So if somebody sues you, the company has to indemnify you.

02:06:04.881 --> 02:06:09.681
And in this situation, when it comes to these circumstances,

02:06:10.461 --> 02:06:15.301
Congress said, we're not paying money damages to people who have this issue.

02:06:15.421 --> 02:06:21.121
This is about us trying to enforce religious freedoms, okay, religious liberties.

02:06:21.381 --> 02:06:26.641
And you know, they didn't mean this religious liberty. And so I think that one

02:06:26.641 --> 02:06:30.601
of the things that I would love to see, and this is sort of a side note,

02:06:30.761 --> 02:06:33.701
is that I would love whoever's going to be the next president,

02:06:33.901 --> 02:06:36.641
besides restoring all of the, you know,

02:06:37.041 --> 02:06:40.521
norms, I would love for somebody, I don't know why this hasn't happened,

02:06:40.581 --> 02:06:46.001
and maybe you can help with this with the ABA, is that I would love to see somebody

02:06:46.001 --> 02:06:49.801
go through every single statute that we have and find the gaps that exist.

02:06:50.881 --> 02:06:54.581
Because these things are made, it's like watching Post-its get slapped up on

02:06:54.581 --> 02:06:58.241
a wall. And it's just like, ooh, new policy, slap up a Post-it.

02:06:58.501 --> 02:07:00.741
Boop, another new one. And they're all on top of each other.

02:07:00.901 --> 02:07:04.301
And they don't really work together a lot of the time.

02:07:05.001 --> 02:07:09.221
And they're written by people who, at least these days, aren't actual attorneys.

02:07:09.481 --> 02:07:13.321
Back in the day, the folks that were writing stuff were actual lawyers.

02:07:13.701 --> 02:07:17.801
And things were written a little bit better, I dare say. But in this situation,

02:07:17.801 --> 02:07:22.081
what we're dealing with is exactly this, whether this person is entitled to

02:07:22.081 --> 02:07:24.161
damages, money damages, whether,

02:07:24.441 --> 02:07:30.381
you know, like you sue your, and it's a separate issue, but you sue your employer for bad conduct.

02:07:30.661 --> 02:07:33.521
The way they make you whole is to pay you.

02:07:33.861 --> 02:07:37.761
Either the jury orders it, the arbitrator orders it, or you come to a settlement.

02:07:38.690 --> 02:07:43.450
This person doesn't have that right according to decisions that have been made.

02:07:44.010 --> 02:07:46.850
And we need to find out what the final answer to that is.

02:07:47.770 --> 02:07:51.950
Yeah. And I think that, you know, the reason why I say it's a fun case because,

02:07:51.950 --> 02:07:56.410
you know, these are the kind of cases that made me want to be a lawyer,

02:07:56.630 --> 02:07:58.050
especially a constitutional lawyer.

02:07:58.050 --> 02:08:06.890
Because I think in order to make sure that people are truly, truly protected,

02:08:07.310 --> 02:08:14.170
that you have to have a certain, I don't know, vigor, a certain passion.

02:08:14.650 --> 02:08:19.890
And I just want to see the arguments. I just want to.

02:08:20.230 --> 02:08:25.390
This is the one I really wanted, like, who's representing Mr.

02:08:25.510 --> 02:08:29.030
Landor. I want to see how vicious they go at it and how they,

02:08:29.230 --> 02:08:30.490
I shouldn't say vicious,

02:08:30.730 --> 02:08:33.510
but going up against this court, maybe that's an appropriate term,

02:08:33.510 --> 02:08:39.110
but how they go after it and how you're going to respond to Alito and Thomas

02:08:39.110 --> 02:08:44.890
and Gorsuch and Barrett and how they're going to try to justify saying that

02:08:44.890 --> 02:08:50.590
this man shouldn't get compensated for that and that law should be upheld.

02:08:50.590 --> 02:08:54.530
I just, that's the reason why I said kind of save this one for last,

02:08:54.590 --> 02:08:59.430
because I think this one is going to be the actual one where if it is an ACLU

02:08:59.430 --> 02:09:00.890
attorney or somebody of that.

02:09:02.299 --> 02:09:05.779
I think this should be a this would be a fun case to watch.

02:09:06.319 --> 02:09:12.379
We may not like the result, but I think it'll I think it's going to generate some interest.

02:09:13.659 --> 02:09:17.259
And I don't know. But maybe that's the nerd in me. I don't know.

02:09:18.019 --> 02:09:21.239
No, I think there's also there's it's there's a parallel to this,

02:09:21.339 --> 02:09:25.379
which is there's another case that that's going to be coming down the line here,

02:09:25.499 --> 02:09:29.799
which is that Pete Hegseth has issued a memo that has said that service members

02:09:29.799 --> 02:09:31.519
who do not shave their face.

02:09:31.719 --> 02:09:37.279
And keep their face cleanly shaven are going to be discharged from the service in a year.

02:09:37.439 --> 02:09:41.639
You have a year to resolve this problem. And this disproportionately impacts

02:09:41.639 --> 02:09:46.599
Black men because the way the curl pattern works with the hair on their face.

02:09:47.119 --> 02:09:50.339
And so there was a ban a long time ago.

02:09:50.539 --> 02:09:56.639
The ban got lifted and they were allowed to not we're not talking ZZ Top Beards

02:09:56.639 --> 02:10:01.679
here. We're talking about managing a condition in their face that causes pain

02:10:01.679 --> 02:10:02.819
and infection and whatnot.

02:10:03.599 --> 02:10:08.219
And so Pete Hegseth has decided that the most appropriate way to deal with this

02:10:08.219 --> 02:10:14.099
and to continue his war on marginalized groups, including Black people and people

02:10:14.099 --> 02:10:17.399
of color, is to, yeah, force you to shave your face.

02:10:17.399 --> 02:10:23.479
And if you can't fix that problem, which is a condition of your body that does

02:10:23.479 --> 02:10:27.479
not impact your ability to do your job, by the way, and it is not narrowly tailored.

02:10:27.699 --> 02:10:31.559
So it's not people in the theater. It's people who anybody, if you're sitting

02:10:31.559 --> 02:10:34.579
at a desk in Iowa, if you can't shave your face, you're out in a year.

02:10:35.199 --> 02:10:38.979
And so, you know, I hope that these things are all going to come,

02:10:39.119 --> 02:10:44.059
you know, in a mad rush, you know, and so that we can actually see it because

02:10:44.059 --> 02:10:48.199
it gets dripped out over time. We see this case and then in the future we'll see another case.

02:10:48.399 --> 02:10:52.379
This stuff needs to stay in the public consciousness because this is a war on

02:10:52.379 --> 02:10:53.879
anybody who is not white.

02:10:54.559 --> 02:11:01.359
And don't forget our, you know, Muslim brothers who may keep their beard as

02:11:01.359 --> 02:11:05.079
part of their religion, right? And we're back to religious freedom.

02:11:05.299 --> 02:11:09.039
And so, again, I mean, there was a similar case, I want to say,

02:11:09.199 --> 02:11:14.179
here in South Florida, where a police officer ended up either losing his job

02:11:14.179 --> 02:11:19.059
or something along those lines because he was Muslim and he didn't want to shave his beard.

02:11:19.319 --> 02:11:24.499
And apparently that ran afoul of some of the, you know, whatever requirements

02:11:24.499 --> 02:11:27.899
or whatever they had within the department. And he was victorious.

02:11:28.219 --> 02:11:34.079
So, you know, there is precedent there in terms of if this is part of your religious

02:11:34.079 --> 02:11:38.719
identity and it's not interfering with your job or anything like that,

02:11:38.719 --> 02:11:40.619
Can the government tell you,

02:11:40.979 --> 02:11:43.679
again, that you can't exercise your religion?

02:11:44.821 --> 02:11:49.601
First Amendment. Yeah, it's fascinating. Well, look, I'm going to have to let y'all go.

02:11:49.781 --> 02:11:54.501
I'm not going to let you, I'm not going to do any predictions about these cases

02:11:54.501 --> 02:11:56.221
because I think it was Dr.

02:11:56.301 --> 02:12:00.541
Tracy said, we don't know what these folks are going to do. We ain't got no, we ain't got no clue.

02:12:04.241 --> 02:12:09.041
But I greatly appreciate, you know, and I say this every time,

02:12:09.221 --> 02:12:15.601
but I greatly appreciate y'all's incredible knowledge and able to dissect what's

02:12:15.601 --> 02:12:17.981
happening and explain to the listeners what's going on.

02:12:18.181 --> 02:12:24.601
So I would say that this is another successful meeting of the Pearson and Pearson law firm.

02:12:24.821 --> 02:12:30.101
And I greatly appreciate y'all's time for coming on and doing this.

02:12:31.061 --> 02:12:33.801
Thank you so much for having us as always, Erik. You're the best.

02:12:34.181 --> 02:12:37.401
Erik, we love talking to your listeners and to you.

02:12:37.561 --> 02:12:42.161
And this is probably one of my favorite podcast conversations that I have and

02:12:42.161 --> 02:12:47.341
so I'm grateful that you have us both on here and I absolutely love talking

02:12:47.341 --> 02:12:50.221
with you Melba and having these,

02:12:50.881 --> 02:12:53.901
idea generation sessions. They're just Yes!

02:12:56.781 --> 02:13:00.581
Same, same, same. All right guys we're going to catch on the other side.

02:13:02.800 --> 02:13:13.360
Music.

02:13:13.206 --> 02:13:20.106
All right. And we are back. So let me try to close this out quickly. But I do want to thank Dr.

02:13:20.266 --> 02:13:24.966
Caroline Heldman and Alia Dastagir for coming on.

02:13:25.506 --> 02:13:32.526
Please get Alia's book and, you know, and do what you can to support her and

02:13:32.526 --> 02:13:34.586
her work as well as Dr. Heldman.

02:13:35.726 --> 02:13:41.346
She's going to be somebody she's been around for a while and you know as you

02:13:41.346 --> 02:13:46.146
listen to the interview if you're in Los Angeles or New Orleans you know all about her,

02:13:47.026 --> 02:13:52.886
and like I said both of these ladies have been on CNN and all that so you know

02:13:52.886 --> 02:13:57.246
again it's always cool to get people like that to come on the show,

02:13:58.346 --> 02:14:05.146
and really stress the theme about survival is resistance right And then,

02:14:05.406 --> 02:14:09.406
as always, to have my good friends Melba Pearson and Dr.

02:14:09.826 --> 02:14:13.886
Tracy Pearson to come on and do an installment of Pearson and Pearson.

02:14:14.966 --> 02:14:19.686
It's really, really a blessing to have two very astute attorneys,

02:14:20.226 --> 02:14:25.626
despite our crazy schedules, to be able to come together and make that possible.

02:14:25.846 --> 02:14:29.586
And hopefully that's, you know, those segments are very educational for you

02:14:29.586 --> 02:14:35.046
all to understand what's happening. I mean, we could talk for a long time about

02:14:35.046 --> 02:14:38.646
cases before the Supreme Court and other legal stuff that's going on.

02:14:39.626 --> 02:14:44.606
And, you know, some of our conversations offline are incredible, too.

02:14:44.886 --> 02:14:51.786
So, again, I just want to thank everybody that participated in this episode for doing so.

02:14:53.926 --> 02:15:03.806
So, another hellified week in the news. We're still dealing with the blowback from...

02:15:05.113 --> 02:15:11.053
The murder of Charlie Kirk. And, you know, people are getting fired from their

02:15:11.053 --> 02:15:13.473
jobs. Their shows are getting canceled.

02:15:13.993 --> 02:15:22.673
You know, the vice president and Stephen Miller have decided to go after every liberal in America.

02:15:23.553 --> 02:15:29.413
But they want to put us all in jail or whatever. Want us all unemployed and all that stuff.

02:15:29.633 --> 02:15:34.093
Although they might want to talk to the president because he got his wish.

02:15:35.453 --> 02:15:38.933
He got his wish. The Fed decided to lower the interest rates.

02:15:39.073 --> 02:15:43.573
But but one of the reasons why they lowered is because black folks are not getting hired.

02:15:44.473 --> 02:15:49.973
Right. So if you go after the liberals, gentlemen, if you want us all to be

02:15:49.973 --> 02:15:55.653
unemployed, that's not going to help with the with the numbers the president's

02:15:55.653 --> 02:15:58.393
trying to boast about in the economy.

02:15:58.393 --> 02:16:02.173
So just keep that in mind as to which hunt is going on.

02:16:02.573 --> 02:16:07.373
And then, of course, you hear the disturbing news from Mississippi.

02:16:10.073 --> 02:16:17.873
Demar Travian Reed, a young man who was found hanging in a tree on the campus

02:16:17.873 --> 02:16:19.033
of Delta State University.

02:16:19.653 --> 02:16:25.993
For those of y'all who are not from Mississippi, Delta State is in Cleveland, Mississippi.

02:16:26.593 --> 02:16:29.813
It's in the Delta, Mississippi Delta region.

02:16:30.313 --> 02:16:35.833
You know, it's one of two state universities up there. The other one is Mississippi Valley State.

02:16:37.673 --> 02:16:41.793
And if you've been a follower of the podcast, you might have heard me mention

02:16:41.793 --> 02:16:46.593
my fondness for Delta State because of their mascot, the Fighting Okra.

02:16:46.993 --> 02:16:51.553
Although they're officially called the statesman, you know, those of us from

02:16:51.553 --> 02:16:55.473
around those parts know them as the Fighting Okra.

02:16:56.333 --> 02:17:02.993
And, you know, my family, a good bit of my family is from the area near Cleveland,

02:17:03.453 --> 02:17:04.793
Mount Bayou to be specific.

02:17:05.613 --> 02:17:09.413
So I'm very familiar with the campus and very familiar with,

02:17:10.173 --> 02:17:16.013
well, I was very familiar with the student body and, you know,

02:17:16.073 --> 02:17:19.633
and just the town and all that kind of stuff, Bolivar County.

02:17:20.813 --> 02:17:25.893
And it's just, it's shocking to hear it anywhere, but it's really shocking to

02:17:25.893 --> 02:17:28.353
hear it there and at that institution.

02:17:28.953 --> 02:17:34.673
Right now, you know, the police still haven't figured out what exactly happened.

02:17:35.113 --> 02:17:36.853
You know, some people are trying

02:17:36.853 --> 02:17:40.373
to say, don't jump the gun and say it's a lynching and all that stuff.

02:17:40.373 --> 02:17:46.553
But it's just, it's shattering to the student body, it's shattering to the community,

02:17:46.793 --> 02:17:53.233
it's shattering to those of us who are black in America that that imagery is still there.

02:17:53.713 --> 02:17:58.213
Can you just imagine the police officers that had to respond to that or the

02:17:58.213 --> 02:18:00.233
students that saw that, right?

02:18:00.633 --> 02:18:04.913
And then the Reed family, you know, my condolences are out to them.

02:18:05.573 --> 02:18:10.873
It's bad enough to lose a child. It's bad enough, it's even worse to lose a child in that fashion.

02:18:11.873 --> 02:18:17.633
So, you know, that's something that I had to deal with along with other members of the Black Caucus.

02:18:17.633 --> 02:18:22.213
When I was in the legislature, we had a situation in southwest Mississippi,

02:18:22.213 --> 02:18:29.913
and it turned out the young man who died in that situation was a distant relative of Emmett Till.

02:18:31.413 --> 02:18:37.853
So, you know, that wasn't, and, you know, eventually that was ruled a suicide

02:18:37.853 --> 02:18:42.913
instead of a homicide, which a lot of people to this day,

02:18:43.253 --> 02:18:51.773
some 20 plus odd years later still are not convinced it wasn't a lynching.

02:18:52.153 --> 02:18:55.493
Because there were a lot of factors in that story that just didn't make sense

02:18:55.493 --> 02:18:58.193
why he would take his own life, right?

02:18:59.713 --> 02:19:03.373
But yeah and that's a whole nother episode i

02:19:03.373 --> 02:19:06.193
could do on that and you know some

02:19:06.193 --> 02:19:12.513
people tell they do these podcasts about you know stories you know crime investigations

02:19:12.513 --> 02:19:18.773
all that that might be worth a podcast worth doing you know the all the stuff

02:19:18.773 --> 02:19:24.013
that led up to that incident 20-some odd years ago, excuse me.

02:19:24.413 --> 02:19:33.553
But yeah, just terrible news. So, you know, in summation, we're in a bad place.

02:19:33.933 --> 02:19:37.773
And I don't have the time to delve into it. So maybe next week,

02:19:37.973 --> 02:19:44.313
looking at, you know, who's scheduled and all that, I might go into a little

02:19:44.313 --> 02:19:49.053
more about something that has a religious connotation to what we're going through now,

02:19:49.493 --> 02:19:51.593
at least from my religious perspective.

02:19:52.333 --> 02:19:55.393
And so I'll dive in that a little more.

02:19:55.513 --> 02:20:01.813
But in short, if it was, I'll just say this.

02:20:02.493 --> 02:20:07.613
If what happened to the young man at Delta State, Mr.

02:20:07.773 --> 02:20:15.653
Reed, was related to this Charlie Kirk thing, just like we're seeing the accusations about.

02:20:17.240 --> 02:20:22.900
Rhetoric from the left or liberals or Democrats and, you know,

02:20:23.040 --> 02:20:29.580
the witch hunt and the ripping of garments and the beating of the chest of the

02:20:29.580 --> 02:20:33.040
conservatives and the MAGA folks, right?

02:20:33.460 --> 02:20:41.380
You know, I think at some point in time, people need to have a soul-searching moment.

02:20:43.100 --> 02:20:46.840
And let's deal with the facts that we know.

02:20:47.240 --> 02:20:55.700
We know that one person shot Charlie Kirk from 142 feet away.

02:20:57.480 --> 02:21:05.460
That person has been arrested. That person has confessed to everybody but the police that he did it.

02:21:06.460 --> 02:21:12.540
And so let's focus in on who he is and why he did what he did.

02:21:12.620 --> 02:21:15.200
We may not find that out till the trial, right?

02:21:16.020 --> 02:21:18.280
So that might be a year or so away.

02:21:19.980 --> 02:21:28.000
So until that moment, I would advise people to just kind of stay focused on

02:21:28.000 --> 02:21:32.100
governing, right? I have an opinion.

02:21:32.660 --> 02:21:37.940
Everybody else that's got a podcast has an opinion. People that have talk shows have opinions.

02:21:38.280 --> 02:21:42.200
People that are guests on talk shows will have opinions, yada, yada, yada.

02:21:42.840 --> 02:21:46.840
And that's really what this is. The First Amendment is all about.

02:21:47.880 --> 02:21:50.520
And, you know, there have been people saying, well, you know,

02:21:51.100 --> 02:21:55.300
the left canceled such and such and they canceled this and canceled that.

02:21:55.680 --> 02:22:01.760
See, I'm old enough to remember when one woman wrote a letter to Fox.

02:22:02.980 --> 02:22:09.000
TV folks. And she wrote a letter to advertisers.

02:22:09.280 --> 02:22:14.080
One woman wrote a letter to advertisers that were on Married with Children,

02:22:14.640 --> 02:22:19.620
said she had a problem with them advertising their product on that kind of show.

02:22:20.120 --> 02:22:22.520
And those people started pulling their advertising.

02:22:23.340 --> 02:22:26.400
One woman did that, right?

02:22:27.120 --> 02:22:30.880
Now, you know, there's a lot of people that weren't even born that's commenting

02:22:30.880 --> 02:22:34.140
on what's happening now and all this stuff. But I remember that.

02:22:34.580 --> 02:22:38.540
And I was just amazed because it was like when we were complaining about stuff,

02:22:38.720 --> 02:22:42.060
I mean, we as black people, and it was like, well, you know,

02:22:42.160 --> 02:22:44.000
we're going to do this and do that.

02:22:44.160 --> 02:22:49.680
And, you know, they were listening to us, but they weren't really hearing us. Right.

02:22:50.420 --> 02:22:53.620
We kind of touched on that in one of the interviews. And so,

02:22:53.940 --> 02:22:56.560
you know, we didn't seem to have that power.

02:22:56.720 --> 02:23:07.060
Or when Tipper Gore got mad at NWA and single-handedly pushed for labels to be put on albums, right?

02:23:07.720 --> 02:23:14.840
So this is not a new phenomenon, what's going on. This has been going on for a long, long time.

02:23:16.380 --> 02:23:23.680
And, you know, people now saying, well, you know, they tried to cancel Dave

02:23:23.680 --> 02:23:27.260
Chappelle, and they tried to cancel this person and that person, all that stuff.

02:23:28.020 --> 02:23:36.040
Okay, so individuals complained, but it's a whole different conversation when

02:23:36.040 --> 02:23:39.860
the federal government is saying, shut that show down,

02:23:40.400 --> 02:23:44.840
shut this show down, don't write this article, whatever.

02:23:45.340 --> 02:23:51.600
That's a different level. As a matter of fact, that is exactly why the First Amendment was written.

02:23:52.220 --> 02:23:58.120
So that government would not interfere in the exercise of free speech.

02:23:59.060 --> 02:24:05.200
So when the chairman of the FCC decides he wants to play mob boss and say,

02:24:05.340 --> 02:24:09.300
well, if you don't take this person off the air, we'll have to deal with that.

02:24:10.588 --> 02:24:13.168
That's the exact reason why the First Amendment was written.

02:24:13.788 --> 02:24:18.068
Now, this, you know, was an individual like that woman way back in the day that

02:24:18.068 --> 02:24:21.848
wrote the letter to the advertiser saying don't advertise on that person's show.

02:24:22.308 --> 02:24:25.808
Well, you got to, you know, if the advertiser decide to do that,

02:24:25.888 --> 02:24:27.948
that's on them. You know what I'm saying?

02:24:29.248 --> 02:24:32.108
But, you know, as an individual, OK. OK,

02:24:33.148 --> 02:24:37.208
but when you work for the federal government, when you are representing the

02:24:37.208 --> 02:24:41.608
federal government and you are doing that, you're challenging TV stations,

02:24:41.828 --> 02:24:46.248
radio stations, podcasters, newspapers. That's a problem.

02:24:47.308 --> 02:24:52.768
But like I said, we'll dive into that a lot more next week. But I just wanted to get that out there.

02:24:54.868 --> 02:25:02.128
Nobody wants violence. but nobody should want the federal government to shut things down either.

02:25:02.848 --> 02:25:09.828
Like I said, they're trying to play a long game. And I saw a clip of Tezlyn

02:25:09.828 --> 02:25:16.968
Figaro and she was challenging Scott Jennings on CNN and she basically told them to stand in it.

02:25:17.428 --> 02:25:22.848
Now, Scott may not have understood what she was saying, but she was basically

02:25:22.848 --> 02:25:26.648
saying, if this is the way you want to play, let's play.

02:25:27.408 --> 02:25:30.168
This is the way you want to fight. Let's fight.

02:25:30.948 --> 02:25:39.188
Or as people of a slightly older, but younger generation than me would say, knock if you buck.

02:25:39.848 --> 02:25:41.388
Right. It's time.

02:25:42.228 --> 02:25:46.508
She's basically said, if that's why y'all want to fight, then let's fight.

02:25:47.168 --> 02:25:49.988
If y'all don't want to talk no more, let's go.

02:25:50.768 --> 02:25:53.748
If you want to throw hands, we can throw hands. That's what she was saying.

02:25:54.348 --> 02:25:58.848
Now, I'm hoping that it doesn't get to that point.

02:25:59.975 --> 02:26:02.355
But ladies and gentlemen, that threshold might have been crossed.

02:26:02.555 --> 02:26:05.695
If you understand history, you understand what's been going on in the world.

02:26:06.735 --> 02:26:12.835
Things are being used to try to excuse actions.

02:26:14.755 --> 02:26:27.235
Tragedies are being used as logs on the fire to create an inferno that none of us signed up for.

02:26:28.195 --> 02:26:32.355
Those of us that are in America. Right. There's a lot of people.

02:26:32.915 --> 02:26:37.235
I don't agree with a lot of stuff they say, especially if you're on X,

02:26:37.455 --> 02:26:41.555
especially if you're on Instagram, especially if you're on TikTok. Right.

02:26:42.535 --> 02:26:47.955
But they have the right to do that. And the government has no right to shut that down.

02:26:47.955 --> 02:26:59.835
You know, we talked about stochastic terrorism last week, stochastic terrorism last week, right?

02:27:01.935 --> 02:27:07.695
And, you know, using words to incite violence. We're not cool with that.

02:27:08.115 --> 02:27:14.335
But as far as just saying stuff that I may think is stupid, or I say stuff that

02:27:14.335 --> 02:27:16.375
people may think is stupid, right?

02:27:17.035 --> 02:27:21.195
You know, we got the right to do that. We got the right to respond and say it's stupid.

02:27:21.815 --> 02:27:27.355
But the federal government is not supposed to be an active participant in that game.

02:27:28.495 --> 02:27:32.675
They're not, they're supposed to be neutral. They're not even supposed to be referees.

02:27:33.675 --> 02:27:36.815
Maybe they shouldn't even be in the stadium. They just might need to be passing

02:27:36.815 --> 02:27:39.755
by and acknowledge that a game is going on, right?

02:27:40.435 --> 02:27:43.895
That's the safest thing for the government to do. until it gets to the point

02:27:43.895 --> 02:27:48.015
where it's like, okay, well now people are actually getting killed or people

02:27:48.015 --> 02:27:49.415
are actually fighting in the streets.

02:27:49.995 --> 02:27:52.155
Yeah, we may need to say something.

02:27:53.015 --> 02:27:58.755
But outside of that, it's not cool. But again, time's a constraint.

02:27:58.995 --> 02:28:04.715
You've been very patient and very attentive if you've gotten to this part of the program.

02:28:05.375 --> 02:28:11.015
So I'm not going to hold you any longer, but yeah, stay tuned because we've got to address this.

02:28:12.195 --> 02:28:15.775
And, you know, and I, and fortunately I'm not the only one that's,

02:28:15.835 --> 02:28:19.635
that's talking about it, but yeah, we need to address it.

02:28:20.555 --> 02:28:22.795
All right, guys, thank you for listening until next time.

02:28:25.360 --> 02:29:10.738
Music.