Strength, Conservation & Effectiveness Featuring Naomi Raquel Enright, Dr. Eboni Preston Goddard and George Hornedo

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

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If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.

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First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash amomentwitherikfleming.

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Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak

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truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.

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Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you

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listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.

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Third, go to the website, momenterik.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,

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leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

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Tell someone else about the podcast. Encourage others to listen to the podcast

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host,

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Erik Fleming. Happy New Year to everybody.

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I hope y'all didn't miss me too much taking that week off, but it felt good.

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It felt good to take a break. That literally, I think, was my first break since 2019.

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Yeah. Yeah, because it's like, you know, even when I had episodes,

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I didn't have guests, I was still plugging along, but that was my first deliberate break.

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Because I've been going even when I was on vacation and still doing episodes and stuff.

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You remember I went to a convention in Chicago and, you know,

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I had an interview scheduled during that week.

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And the adventure I had to just get Wi-Fi to do that interview was amazing.

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Anyway, but we're back, and we've got a jam-packed episode just go around to kick us off.

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We're going to be talking about systemic racism, and I have somebody running

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for Congress, and even we're going to talk about national parks.

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So I've got three very dynamic guests that are coming on, and I hope that you

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enjoy those interviews as we start this new year.

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We're about to go into a new season.

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As you know, I tend to do about two seasons a year, you know,

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and break it off into 25 episodes per season.

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And so, you know, If you go to www.momenterik.com, you'll be able to see it.

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And then that way you can break it down.

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Whereas like, well, I want to check out all the guests that he had, you know, on season 11.

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You can do that. Or season 12.

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You know, hear what he was saying in season three. You can do all that on the website.

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And also, you can subscribe to the podcast.

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Yeah. Yeah, new year, but same thing.

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We're trying to continue our goal to get as many subscribers as we can.

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You know, it's important for little old independent podcasters like me to continue

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to offer a voice that's different than what you're hearing.

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And, you know, there's some like-minded folks out there, and I listen to a lot of them myself.

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But the one thing that I think is kind of nuanced is the fact that I actually

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am African-American, for one, and two, that, you know, I was an elected official.

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And in this political landscape, you don't really get a lot of people that actually has done the work.

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Who's actually been out there and been an activist and all that kind of stuff.

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You know, taking the time to do a podcast and talk to other people.

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And so that's, you know, that's what I bring to the table. And I hope that you like it.

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And with your support, we're going to continue to do it. I know times are hard.

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Affordability is an issue. It is not a hoax. and so you know if you can cool

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but the most important thing is I need y'all to listen,

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and and the more listeners we have that makes makes it better and and you know

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write reviews the whole nine yards but just go to www.momenteric.com if you

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just want to do the subscription part,

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you can go to patreon.com slash a moment with Erik Fleming and show your support and love that way too.

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All right. So I'm glad that we're back, which also means that Grace G is back.

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So ladies and gentlemen, it's time to kick our program off. And as always,

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we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Thanks, Erik. A federal agent killed 37-year-old Renee Nicole Good, a U.S.

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Citizen, during an immigration enforcement operation in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

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U.S. forces captured federally indicted Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro

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and his wife during a large-scale strike on Caracas.

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President Trump announced the removal of the National Guard from Chicago,

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Los Angeles, and Portland, though he warned they would return if crime increased.

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Minnesota Governor Tim Walz announced he will not seek a third term,

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choosing instead to focus on a welfare fraud crisis that has drawn significant

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criticism from the Trump administration.

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The House Ethics Committee is investigating Representative Mike Collins for

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allegedly misusing congressional resources.

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Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has initiated steps to demote Senator Mark Kelly

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from his retired Navy rank as punishment for Kelly's public encouragement of

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troops to refuse illegal orders.

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Mayor Daniel Lurie signed a new ordinance setting up a framework for a reparations

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fund for black residents in San Francisco, though the law does not currently

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allocate any city money for payouts.

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Democrat Renee Hardman became the first black woman elected to the Iowa Senate

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after winning a special election.

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The Trump administration is facing backlash after EEOC Chair Andrea Lucas released

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a video suggesting that white men may be victims of workplace discrimination

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and should seek compensation under civil rights laws.

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Milwaukee County Judge Hannah Dugan resigned after being convicted of obstruction

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for helping a migrant evade an immigration arrest in her courtroom. A U.S.

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Appeals court ruled that California's ban on openly carrying firearms is unconstitutional.

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South Carolina health officials reported that a measles outbreak in the state's

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northwest region has grown to 185 cases.

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And Republican Representative Doug LaMalfa of California died at the age of

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65. I am Grace G, and this has been a Moment of News.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.

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And it's good to hear your voice again, especially to kick off 2026.

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All right. Now it is time for my guest, Naomi Raquel Enright.

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Naomi Raquel Enright is a writer, educator, and consultant based in Brooklyn, New York.

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She is also a national SEED, which stands for Seeking Educational Equity and

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Diversity facilitator and a New York Appleseed board member.

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Raised in New York City, she was born in La Paz, Bolivia to an Ecuadorian mother

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and a Jewish American father and is a native speaker of English and Spanish.

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She holds a BA in Anthropology from Kenyan College and studied at the Universidad de Sevilla, Spain.

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She writes about racism and identity, loss, and parenting.

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Her essays have appeared in several publications, including Hold the Line magazine.

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Family Story, Role Reboot, Streetlight magazine, among others,

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and in the anthologies The Beijing of America, Sharing Gratitude,

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and Streetlight magazine.

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She has been interviewed on a number of podcasts, including Global Citizenship

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and Equity, Inclusion School, War Stories from the Womb, The Mixed Creator,

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Project 25, and Dear White Women.

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Her essay, The Hidden Curriculum, received an honorable mention in Streetlight

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Magazine's 2021 Essay Memoir Contest.

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Her book, Strength of Soul, was published in April 2019.

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And a lot of the questions that I'm going to ask are going to come from that

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book, which is a very, very powerful and insightful book.

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So ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a

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guest on this podcast, Naomi Raquel Enright.

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All right. Naomi Raquel Enright. How are you doing? You doing good?

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I'm good. Hi, Eric. Good to be here. Thank you. Well, it's good to have you. Happy New Year to you.

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I guess I can say this on the air. I'm going to be the you're the first person

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I've interviewed for 2026.

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And so for the listeners, if I sound a little off or rusty, it's because it's

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the first time I've taken a break since 2019.

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For the podcast. So I'll try to get back into the groove, but I greatly appreciate you coming on.

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To discuss, well, a book that you wrote about the time that I started doing

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my podcast, Strength of Soul.

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But I think it's very, very pertinent to what we're dealing with now.

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And so again, thank you for coming on So I start the interview off with a couple

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of icebreakers And so the first icebreaker is a quote And the quote I want you

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to respond to is Our stories are not written on our faces,

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What does that quote mean to you?

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That is a profound quote to me because I think so often we make assumptions

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about who people are, where they stand on certain issues,

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how they might feel about certain issues based on the exterior and based on the superficial.

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And so I think if we really wish to understand ourselves as well as each other

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and even and certainly history, we have to go beyond that superficial surface level aspect.

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And so our stories are not written on our faces means there is so much more to us as human beings.

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And if we take the time to understand that, I think we are better equipped to

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understand each other, to foster empathy and compassion, and to create change.

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So now the next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions. Okay.

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So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

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I'll go with 10. All right. What one fact do you wish people who voted differently

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than you in the last election knew?

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And that can be about how you vote, about the current state of the world, about anything.

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One fact I would wish for those who voted differently for myself in the last

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election knew was that a vote is not a single issue.

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And so when you cast a vote, you are voting on a number of issues.

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And although not all of the issues may impact you personally or even your loved

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ones personally, they will impact someone.

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And to have a broader understanding of that would be, I think,

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a much more informed way of voting and taking into consideration what your vote is.

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The impact it has. Okay. Why did you decide to write this book, The Strength of Soul?

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All right. Yeah. So, Strength of Soul was published in 2019,

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right? The year you started this podcast. So, it's going to be seven years in April.

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And I made the decision to write Strength of Soul in part for my son,

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but it was much bigger than my own family and my own child.

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Strength of Soul is an examination, a very personal examination of systemic

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racism, language, identity.

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History, and even what I mentioned before about the quote, the assumptions that we make.

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And so Strength of Soul, to me, is a deep exploration of how we could challenge anti-Blackness,

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white supremacy, and systemic racism differently and in ways that relate more

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to us as a collective and sort of,

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right, this oneness of humanity without losing sight of the very systemic,

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the real systemic issues and differences and how our experiences are vastly different.

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Depending on who we are and the assumptions and fact that are made about us.

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But I chose to write it because it felt to me that there was no book or even

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sort of thinking around a person like my son and a family like mine.

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My family is multi-ethnic.

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We are bilingual. We are international.

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And my son is presumed to be white. And I'm brown-skinned. My son is not.

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And for me, it felt that there was no space for a person specifically like him,

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but by extension, a family like my own, where we're sort of holding space in

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different, we're holding different spaces, I should say.

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We have our feet in different worlds.

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And I felt compelled to create a narrative that folks could refer to as a

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a different option, another option for challenging systemic racism.

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Why is the link between language, culture, and identity inextricable?

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Mm-hmm. So I even had this thinking when I was a Spanish teacher.

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I was a Spanish teacher for eight years.

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And I began to realize, even in my teaching of Spanish, that the language we

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use entirely informs the way that we think.

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And it informs the way that we interact even.

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And I had an understanding of this to some degree because I am a native English

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and Spanish speaker. And so I've always held these two languages in my brain.

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And my students would even point out to me that I was different in Spanish.

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I had a different energy, a different rhythm.

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And I began to think, wait, there's something to this.

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And when I left the Spanish classroom not long after my son was born and decided

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to pursue anti-racist equity work more,

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you know as more of my my focus

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instead of the Spanish language classroom it I

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began to hear language that solidified this notion of

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an inherent difference between white

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people and everyone else essentially and for

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me with the child that I have it was jarring it was disconcerting and it's disorienting

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because I'm the mother of this human being and I'm trying to raise him to understand

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history and to understand inequity and to understand himself and to not have others.

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Tell him who he is or what his role is or how he should think or how he should

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feel, including myself, right?

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Even as the parent, giving him the space to explore and discover for himself.

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But it dawned on me that our language has to change in terms of how we challenge

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white supremacy and anti-blackness and systemic racism, because so often we

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are solidifying the ethos, right?

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The ideology of these systems, which is not only an inherent difference between

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white people and everyone else, but this automatic process,

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presumption of power and protection and privilege for white folks or those who

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are presumed to be white, and disenfranchisement, criminalization,

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marginalization for black and brown people.

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And so to me, these three elements,

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language, culture, and identity are absolutely intertwined and we cannot separate

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them from each other in thinking not only about how to challenge systemic inequity,

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but in thinking about who we are and understanding ourselves and each other.

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So you close chapter nine with this phrase, the language and ideology of racial

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difference and whiteness are undoubtedly the master's tools.

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Expound on that, because I think, you know, in the last answer,

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you were kind of setting a framework for it. So kind of get into that a little bit.

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Yes. So the master's tools, right, is borrowing from Audre Lorde.

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That the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house.

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And to me, the language of racial difference and whiteness are indeed the master's

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tools because those were the tools created to justify inequity and injustice

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and oppression and violence.

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We cannot envision a different future if we're consistently using the methodology

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and the tools that were created to justify dehumanization, ultimately.

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And so for me, those are the master's tools.

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And, you know, I've now been working on this for a long time,

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right? Seven years since the book came out, 15 years since my son was born.

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So I've done a lot of thinking about this. And I am continuously honing what

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that could look like and what that can sound like.

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And one thing I've come

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across that I have found extremely helpful to my own work

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and to my own understanding and I would hope to create change is Isabel Wilkerson's

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caste and casteism and her language of caste and how caste really places the

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onus on the system as it functions as opposed to who we are as individuals.

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And so when I read her book in 2020, I was blown away by how masterfully she

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was able to explain the system that we have in place and have had for centuries.

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And it explained not only that, but it also highlighted the reality I experienced

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as the mother of this presumed to be white son.

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And so her book and her work, for me,

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are further sort of progress in terms of being able to talk about these issues

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and create change differently.

00:20:54.775 --> 00:21:01.515
So what about those of us, including me, that take pride in being Black or Blackness?

00:21:01.795 --> 00:21:05.555
Is our pride delaying systematic change?

00:21:06.335 --> 00:21:12.495
Not at all. I think I make a real fine distinction between assuming inherent

00:21:12.495 --> 00:21:15.835
difference between white people and everyone else and feeling pride in who you

00:21:15.835 --> 00:21:16.895
are in your family history.

00:21:16.895 --> 00:21:19.315
And I think, and I also am very clear

00:21:19.315 --> 00:21:27.755
to distinguish between or separate anti-Blackness as its own beast, right?

00:21:27.915 --> 00:21:30.915
I think for a long time in my work and in my understanding of racism,

00:21:30.915 --> 00:21:33.275
I had it sort of all blended together.

00:21:33.275 --> 00:21:38.395
And it took my becoming a mother, actually, and becoming an adult,

00:21:38.415 --> 00:21:44.455
I suppose, to really see that anti-Blackness is its own separate entity.

00:21:44.495 --> 00:21:50.775
And it needs to be tackled much more directly and not necessarily in conjunction with, right?

00:21:50.995 --> 00:21:55.515
Because there are folks who are brown or who are new to this country who...

00:21:55.945 --> 00:22:00.945
Who don't understand that systemic racism and white supremacy impact them as

00:22:00.945 --> 00:22:06.705
well, precisely because they are also feeding into anti-Blackness.

00:22:06.945 --> 00:22:13.865
And so for me to be a proud Black person or to feel ownership of Blackness is

00:22:13.865 --> 00:22:15.805
a cultural marker, right?

00:22:15.905 --> 00:22:20.285
That is a cultural historical marker, even a social marker.

00:22:20.285 --> 00:22:25.705
But that should not be in conjunction with accepting that it is natural for

00:22:25.705 --> 00:22:30.205
white people or presumed to be white people to be safer and more privileged

00:22:30.205 --> 00:22:35.365
and more protected and even more empowered in the world than black people and

00:22:35.365 --> 00:22:37.025
then by extension than brown people.

00:22:37.025 --> 00:22:41.845
And I actually appreciate the question because I think there's often a misunderstanding

00:22:41.845 --> 00:22:44.945
on my position and what I think and why.

00:22:45.185 --> 00:22:48.945
And I want to make it clear that I am also very much speaking to the experience

00:22:48.945 --> 00:22:53.985
of a person who is multi-ethnic, who exists between cultures and worlds,

00:22:53.985 --> 00:22:55.565
who speaks two languages.

00:22:55.945 --> 00:23:00.345
You know, I'm a native speaker of both. And so that's a very different experience.

00:23:00.605 --> 00:23:08.185
And I think it is in sort of owning and recognizing the validity of those experiences

00:23:08.185 --> 00:23:11.525
that more understanding and change can occur as well.

00:23:11.685 --> 00:23:14.825
Right. So I hope that helps you answer the question.

00:23:15.105 --> 00:23:20.465
It helps to also highlight that I do not have it all as one because it isn't.

00:23:20.705 --> 00:23:25.165
Right. Anti-blackness is very much it's very separate as far as I'm concerned. Okay.

00:23:25.745 --> 00:23:32.285
Why is it important for us to focus on the scholarship of the shelves as well

00:23:32.285 --> 00:23:34.345
as the scholarship of the selves?

00:23:35.393 --> 00:23:41.613
Yes. So that is coming from the National SEED organization that I trained with

00:23:41.613 --> 00:23:46.713
in, gosh, July 2023, maybe?

00:23:46.993 --> 00:23:49.773
No, it's even earlier. 2015, what am I saying? 2015, right?

00:23:50.193 --> 00:23:52.653
The new year always throws off one's timing.

00:23:53.373 --> 00:23:58.613
So I learned that in that training, and SEED stands for Seeking Educational

00:23:58.613 --> 00:24:02.933
Equity and Diversity. And it was a transformative, profound,

00:24:03.413 --> 00:24:06.013
life-altering experience for me, that training in 2015.

00:24:06.493 --> 00:24:08.253
Four years later, the book was published.

00:24:08.853 --> 00:24:15.373
And I was very taken by this mantra, the scholarship of the shelves and the

00:24:15.373 --> 00:24:16.473
scholarship of the selves.

00:24:16.713 --> 00:24:20.513
And I think it is crucial because we have to have an intellectual,

00:24:20.773 --> 00:24:29.353
scholastic understanding of history and of sociology, all of these subjects, right?

00:24:29.893 --> 00:24:35.993
But we also need to know where we stand within that and our own personal histories, right?

00:24:36.053 --> 00:24:40.433
And so I think so often in this country, we talk about history as separate from

00:24:40.433 --> 00:24:44.373
the lived experience of what people are carrying with them, right?

00:24:44.453 --> 00:24:48.773
And that they might pass on, right, to their children or to future generations, be they parents or not.

00:24:49.153 --> 00:24:53.673
And so to me, you cannot have one with the other. You can't have an understanding

00:24:53.673 --> 00:25:00.033
intellectually of something without also an emotional visceral understanding as well.

00:25:00.273 --> 00:25:04.113
And that was part of the training was really examining where we stand within

00:25:04.113 --> 00:25:08.893
these systemic social structures based on our experience. Right.

00:25:08.953 --> 00:25:12.733
If you're a gay man or if you're a trans woman or if you're an immigrant or

00:25:12.733 --> 00:25:14.813
if you are differently abled.

00:25:15.133 --> 00:25:21.753
Right. Whatever your identity markers are, impact the social reality as well.

00:25:22.013 --> 00:25:27.493
And so they are also inextricably linked, to return to that earlier question

00:25:27.493 --> 00:25:29.593
about language, culture, and identity. Okay.

00:25:30.793 --> 00:25:36.493
How has the language of racial difference tried to erase your lived experience?

00:25:38.973 --> 00:25:44.693
Well, I would say I felt some erasure in that language even growing up because

00:25:44.693 --> 00:25:48.313
I would often feel protective of my father.

00:25:48.433 --> 00:25:53.173
My father was a white Jewish American educator, civil rights activist,

00:25:53.513 --> 00:25:55.233
and really a gem of a human being.

00:25:55.813 --> 00:26:00.973
And so often in spaces, blank statements would be made that would make me feel protective of him.

00:26:01.173 --> 00:26:05.273
It would make me feel even defensive because I would think, you don't know my father.

00:26:05.573 --> 00:26:08.673
You don't know what he's been through or who he is or the values he's passing

00:26:08.673 --> 00:26:09.853
on to me and my older brother.

00:26:10.653 --> 00:26:14.313
And so there was some discomfort growing up.

00:26:14.753 --> 00:26:20.713
However, I would say it didn't become really almost untenable until motherhood.

00:26:20.713 --> 00:26:28.493
And so when my son was born and I began to really notice this acceptance that

00:26:28.493 --> 00:26:31.793
there are white people and everyone else, and it really was,

00:26:31.853 --> 00:26:35.193
it was just disorienting to me because I thought, well,

00:26:35.493 --> 00:26:40.233
there's my son and I brought him into the world, right?

00:26:40.313 --> 00:26:44.173
My husband and I brought him into the world. And he's also has this whole history

00:26:44.173 --> 00:26:46.793
through me as well, right? Ecuadorian, Spanish speaking.

00:26:47.253 --> 00:26:53.453
He's bilingual as well, actually. And so it felt to me like a person like him

00:26:53.453 --> 00:26:54.553
and a family like mine just.

00:26:55.522 --> 00:27:00.322
Just didn't factor in, you know, that we're just almost figments of people's imagination, right?

00:27:00.442 --> 00:27:04.882
And I know we're not figments of people's imagination because we're here, right?

00:27:05.042 --> 00:27:13.722
And so to me, I really wanted to sort of add to the canon.

00:27:13.722 --> 00:27:17.022
I don't mean to imply that my work is, you know, as necessarily,

00:27:17.022 --> 00:27:21.722
you know, influential or profound as others, but I did want to contribute,

00:27:22.202 --> 00:27:28.062
right, to the canon of work examining and challenging white supremacy,

00:27:28.722 --> 00:27:34.382
systemic racism, and anti-Blackness, specifically through the lens of a person like myself, right?

00:27:34.622 --> 00:27:40.862
And so I continue to feel that disorientation, but it bothers me much less because

00:27:40.862 --> 00:27:45.322
of the work that I do and because of how my husband and I and our families have

00:27:45.322 --> 00:27:48.962
been raising my son and even because of who he is.

00:27:49.102 --> 00:27:52.742
I mean, he's sort of, for me, is the embodiment of all of my efforts.

00:27:52.782 --> 00:27:57.462
And he has a real profound understanding and has since he was quite young about

00:27:57.462 --> 00:28:00.082
history and himself and others.

00:28:00.362 --> 00:28:06.562
And so for me, that feels empowering and is a better use of my energy than being

00:28:06.562 --> 00:28:08.542
concerned with not feeling included.

00:28:10.482 --> 00:28:16.662
All right. So what was your reaction when Vice President Vance proclaimed that

00:28:16.662 --> 00:28:20.622
white people don't have to apologize for being white anymore?

00:28:23.802 --> 00:28:30.042
Well, it certainly upset me on a visceral level because it's a complete denial

00:28:30.042 --> 00:28:33.922
of systemic reality and of history.

00:28:34.662 --> 00:28:36.602
And it's feeding into...

00:28:38.427 --> 00:28:45.667
The idea that racism or discrimination or inequity are personal slights,

00:28:45.847 --> 00:28:48.787
they are much more than personal slights, right?

00:28:48.907 --> 00:28:53.267
This is about education, about our criminal justice system, about immigration.

00:28:54.267 --> 00:28:58.827
And so for me, it felt like a cop-out. It's lazy.

00:28:59.347 --> 00:29:02.487
It's insensitive. It's a historical.

00:29:03.727 --> 00:29:04.487
And...

00:29:05.047 --> 00:29:09.927
It's wrong. Right. I think that you can I don't believe white people have to

00:29:09.927 --> 00:29:11.107
apologize for being white.

00:29:11.327 --> 00:29:15.247
But I do think white people have to acknowledge the privilege and power and

00:29:15.247 --> 00:29:20.247
protection that they are ensured because of white supremacy and because of anti-blackness

00:29:20.247 --> 00:29:25.747
and because of systemic racism or to borrow from Isabel Wilkerson because of casteism.

00:29:26.207 --> 00:29:30.427
Right. I think that is a crucial aspect of understanding history and of creating

00:29:30.427 --> 00:29:33.807
change. And I think it's been distorted.

00:29:34.627 --> 00:29:39.207
And yeah, distorted is a good word for it. You have this idea that it's a personal thing.

00:29:39.527 --> 00:29:44.327
Right. And so for me, it's very concerning that aspect because I think you're

00:29:44.327 --> 00:29:46.207
entitled to feel offended personally anytime.

00:29:46.667 --> 00:29:49.827
Right. That's just a natural human response to something. Right.

00:29:49.827 --> 00:29:58.307
But to conflate that with historical and systemic truths is extremely dangerous.

00:29:58.327 --> 00:30:03.147
And I think that's precisely why we are where we are, at least one of the reasons.

00:30:03.607 --> 00:30:07.807
And so, yes, it bothered me a great deal. And particularly so as the parent

00:30:07.807 --> 00:30:13.147
of a person who out in the world, people are seeing a white person. Right.

00:30:13.187 --> 00:30:16.147
They're not assuming anything beyond that about my son out in the world.

00:30:16.507 --> 00:30:19.587
And so for me, it felt so dangerous for a person.

00:30:19.767 --> 00:30:25.447
Right. It's the kind of thing that you feed into these notions that actually

00:30:25.447 --> 00:30:31.307
allow for people to remain ignorant of history and of how this inequitable system

00:30:31.307 --> 00:30:35.607
actually impacts them as well or potentially impacts them as well differently,

00:30:35.807 --> 00:30:36.907
but certainly impacts them.

00:30:36.907 --> 00:30:42.687
So it's a dangerous, dangerous statement, and not only dangerous,

00:30:42.787 --> 00:30:45.287
but also untrue. And like I said, like, ahistorical.

00:30:46.227 --> 00:30:54.907
Yeah, because when he said that, it took me back to when I was living in Jackson,

00:30:55.027 --> 00:31:00.627
Mississippi at the time, and they used to try to do these racial reconciliation things.

00:31:01.027 --> 00:31:02.867
And I remember...

00:31:03.499 --> 00:31:09.899
I stood up and said, you know, this is going to be a hard exercise because usually

00:31:09.899 --> 00:31:13.879
people reconcile after there's been an apology.

00:31:14.479 --> 00:31:18.579
And I don't ever remember the apology part.

00:31:18.819 --> 00:31:23.399
So when I heard him say, well, we need to stop apologizing, I said, when did you start?

00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:29.279
Right? Exactly right. Exactly. I missed that somewhere in my 60 years.

00:31:29.419 --> 00:31:34.839
So, yeah, I understand. I appreciate the way that you addressed it,

00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:36.599
which leads me to this question.

00:31:36.719 --> 00:31:42.139
Why do you think it is a hard concept for Americans to understand that race

00:31:42.139 --> 00:31:46.119
is a product of racism? Oh, wow.

00:31:47.898 --> 00:31:56.338
I think that is a very difficult concept for most Americans to grasp precisely

00:31:56.338 --> 00:32:06.598
because of the sort of acquiescence and acceptance of race as immutable and true.

00:32:06.598 --> 00:32:16.638
And so it's very hard to explain that the system and its inequities are absolutely

00:32:16.638 --> 00:32:20.378
real and true and have been,

00:32:20.678 --> 00:32:25.218
but that the origin of them, the justification for them is a lie, right?

00:32:25.378 --> 00:32:28.478
This idea that we are inherently different from each other based on skin color.

00:32:29.098 --> 00:32:32.618
And so I think that conflation was purposeful.

00:32:33.158 --> 00:32:39.538
I think it's by design. And I think it has been an experiment that has continued

00:32:39.538 --> 00:32:44.778
to work for centuries and that even in my own work in anti-racist work,

00:32:44.938 --> 00:32:50.658
I had come across this utter confusion in terms of what it is that we're actually

00:32:50.658 --> 00:32:53.558
naming and what it is that we actually wish to change.

00:32:53.558 --> 00:33:00.978
And so for me, I'm very, very intentional and clear about consistently putting

00:33:00.978 --> 00:33:07.118
the onus on the system and on history and not who people are intrinsically and

00:33:07.118 --> 00:33:10.918
certainly not on this lie that because I'm brown skinned,

00:33:10.978 --> 00:33:14.078
I'm automatically different from you as a black person or automatically different

00:33:14.078 --> 00:33:15.778
from someone as a white person.

00:33:15.778 --> 00:33:20.518
And for me, that is something I've continued, like I said before,

00:33:20.658 --> 00:33:23.758
to hone and to, you know, strengthen.

00:33:24.298 --> 00:33:27.818
But I would say that given the number of years I've been thinking about it and

00:33:27.818 --> 00:33:33.998
writing about it and working on it, I'm very clear that if you want to create

00:33:33.998 --> 00:33:37.138
change and you want to change a system, challenge and change a system,

00:33:37.398 --> 00:33:42.458
you have to name that system and you have to not be continuously naming things.

00:33:43.127 --> 00:33:49.147
Lies. Lies that were created for a purpose and that purpose is being served

00:33:49.147 --> 00:33:51.047
and continues to be served.

00:33:51.387 --> 00:33:54.027
And there are many writers who have examined this, right? Ta-Nehisi Coates has

00:33:54.027 --> 00:33:55.787
examined it. James Baldwin examined it.

00:33:56.147 --> 00:34:01.367
Isabel Wilkerson, Toni Morrison. There's so many who have named this in various

00:34:01.367 --> 00:34:03.487
ways over the course of history and time.

00:34:03.487 --> 00:34:10.787
And yet we continue to revert to this way of thinking and way of engaging,

00:34:10.787 --> 00:34:15.747
which I also feel is it's been weaponized as well, right?

00:34:15.807 --> 00:34:22.367
Because people have chosen to use the fact that we are actually not inherently

00:34:22.367 --> 00:34:26.927
different from each other as a way to deny systemic inequity, racist inequity.

00:34:26.927 --> 00:34:31.427
And so that's been also by design. And that is something that I'm also finding

00:34:31.427 --> 00:34:33.087
in my work I'm up against.

00:34:33.327 --> 00:34:36.567
Right. It's up against the lie itself and it's up against the weaponization

00:34:36.567 --> 00:34:39.907
of the truth as a denial of the reality.

00:34:39.907 --> 00:34:45.687
And so for me, it's so, so complex and sensitive and deep-seated,

00:34:45.927 --> 00:34:52.967
but I am determined in my own corner of the world to create change in this way

00:34:52.967 --> 00:34:59.767
of really challenging systemic racism at its root and not perpetuating its ideology,

00:34:59.947 --> 00:35:01.927
its ethos, and certainly not its language.

00:35:02.367 --> 00:35:05.747
And hopefully I'm making an impact in some capacity.

00:35:06.807 --> 00:35:12.827
Yeah, and I'm going to deal with, I got a question as far as your impact goes.

00:35:13.187 --> 00:35:19.407
I want to go back. What can be done public policy wise to stop racism from being

00:35:19.407 --> 00:35:24.307
this sixth sense that we have? Oh, yeah.

00:35:25.024 --> 00:35:28.744
So that's a tough one for me because I feel it's a little bit outside of my

00:35:28.744 --> 00:35:31.704
expertise and my own realm, right?

00:35:31.784 --> 00:35:34.404
I'm an educator. Education is really my focus.

00:35:34.864 --> 00:35:41.724
But with that said, I do think one way is that so often when we use the word

00:35:41.724 --> 00:35:45.604
race, we could replace it with racism.

00:35:45.764 --> 00:35:50.164
Often, I think more often than not, we could or even specifically systemic racism.

00:35:50.164 --> 00:35:58.864
And so I think that's one very intentional and I think effective way of doing.

00:35:59.304 --> 00:36:03.244
Discussing what we need to discuss and creating the change that we need to create.

00:36:03.584 --> 00:36:09.584
I have sat with many an article or, you know, even a post, right,

00:36:09.704 --> 00:36:14.664
where I read and I think, how could this be reframed so that we're actually naming the system?

00:36:14.984 --> 00:36:20.644
And I have an essay that I was published back in 2021 called A Hidden Curriculum, which did just that.

00:36:20.764 --> 00:36:25.064
I actually came across a, I don't know, kind of an ad for how kids,

00:36:25.244 --> 00:36:31.724
quote unquote, conceptualize race between birth or zero, a zero it said, to six plus years.

00:36:31.764 --> 00:36:37.684
And I was really struck by the ad because it was really solidifying racism is

00:36:37.684 --> 00:36:40.364
what it was doing. It was solidifying this notion of inherent difference.

00:36:40.604 --> 00:36:44.344
And of course, it erased my family and my own child.

00:36:44.604 --> 00:36:50.064
And so I sat with it for weeks and thought, how can I frame this differently

00:36:50.064 --> 00:36:54.344
so that it's actually saying what it wishes to say, which is how do you teach children about racism?

00:36:54.344 --> 00:36:57.764
How do you teach children to understand that systemic racism is real,

00:36:57.884 --> 00:37:04.604
that inequity is real, that our history has so much evidence of this? How do you do that?

00:37:04.904 --> 00:37:07.764
And I sat with this thing and I rewrote it, actually.

00:37:08.104 --> 00:37:10.784
And then I wrote an entire essay based on that rewriting.

00:37:11.344 --> 00:37:14.804
And it takes time and energy. Like I said, it took me weeks to do just that

00:37:14.804 --> 00:37:17.124
little ad, you know, to just think, how can I frame this differently?

00:37:17.344 --> 00:37:21.224
It took me a long time, but it was worth the time. Because when people have

00:37:21.224 --> 00:37:23.764
read that essay, they have said to me, wow,

00:37:24.224 --> 00:37:30.544
what you're rewriting completely alters what is actually being said and what

00:37:30.544 --> 00:37:34.144
you wish to convey to educators, to caregivers,

00:37:34.704 --> 00:37:36.124
to parents.

00:37:36.744 --> 00:37:41.404
And, you know, to answer your question, a way to bigger parties,

00:37:41.604 --> 00:37:43.324
right, and public policy and whatnot, right?

00:37:43.324 --> 00:37:47.944
That if you are reframing, you actually might get closer to—actually,

00:37:47.984 --> 00:37:51.964
no, you will get closer to the truth of what it is you want to say. Yeah.

00:37:52.859 --> 00:37:57.779
With the onset of President Trump in the American political landscape,

00:37:57.779 --> 00:38:05.179
how much of a setback have we faced as a nation in dealing with the eradication of racism? Oof.

00:38:06.362 --> 00:38:13.202
I sadly believe that we have, we're quite, it's quite a setback, right?

00:38:13.322 --> 00:38:15.702
It's a huge setback.

00:38:15.962 --> 00:38:22.622
And it's one that is very concerning and infuriating and frightening for those

00:38:22.622 --> 00:38:26.442
of us invested in this work and for those of us who really wish for this country

00:38:26.442 --> 00:38:28.682
to be what is always claimed it is.

00:38:28.902 --> 00:38:34.722
And so I'm very concerned. And I think at the same time, however,

00:38:34.902 --> 00:38:42.282
I think it's an absolute response, right, to changes that have been made or,

00:38:42.442 --> 00:38:43.802
you know, were on the horizon.

00:38:44.582 --> 00:38:50.642
And it simply requires more effort and more energy and more focus.

00:38:50.802 --> 00:38:53.302
And I think part of that focus is what we've been discussing,

00:38:53.502 --> 00:38:58.362
which is precisely naming the system and placing the onus on the system and

00:38:58.362 --> 00:38:59.302
understanding history.

00:38:59.942 --> 00:39:04.342
So I, you know, I feel that, yes, it is a setback, quite a big one, I think.

00:39:04.742 --> 00:39:08.942
But I don't think it means we can't. I don't think that at all.

00:39:09.122 --> 00:39:13.562
For me, to think that would be defeatist and it would be, I think,

00:39:13.662 --> 00:39:18.362
also an erasure of all the work that has been done and how many folks in the

00:39:18.362 --> 00:39:22.602
country actually do wish for positive social change, because there are quite a few of us.

00:39:22.602 --> 00:39:27.062
And even folks who thought they wanted this realize now they don't, right?

00:39:27.202 --> 00:39:34.862
And so I think that can be, can serve as, you know, sort of fuel for the work

00:39:34.862 --> 00:39:38.462
itself and for hopefully this country one day, right?

00:39:38.622 --> 00:39:42.842
Perhaps it'll be in my lifetime, perhaps not. But one day really living up to

00:39:42.842 --> 00:39:46.682
the ideals that it was that is claimed from the start.

00:39:47.102 --> 00:39:53.142
Right. E pluribus Unum. Right. Out of many one. And so I have to think it's possible.

00:39:53.522 --> 00:40:00.342
And that's the space I try to work from and remain in. Okay.

00:40:01.619 --> 00:40:07.199
So I've got three more questions. So I wanted to go back to you were talking about your work.

00:40:07.419 --> 00:40:11.779
How has being an other given you an advantage in your work?

00:40:13.879 --> 00:40:14.399
So...

00:40:15.806 --> 00:40:20.786
As an other, which I'm not entirely comfortable with that description because

00:40:20.786 --> 00:40:24.026
to me, it sort of implies that there is a standard and a norm.

00:40:24.206 --> 00:40:26.046
And so I'm not wholly comfortable with that description.

00:40:26.286 --> 00:40:31.386
However, I have had that experience, right? My whole life, I've always been on the outs.

00:40:31.926 --> 00:40:40.026
And I would say that that reality of constantly looking in or not feeling represented

00:40:40.026 --> 00:40:45.026
or reflected has been ultimately a gift in my life.

00:40:45.026 --> 00:40:52.266
Because it has allowed me to see people and situations and understand people

00:40:52.266 --> 00:40:57.346
and situations more broadly, more holistically, more openly.

00:40:57.806 --> 00:41:04.266
And it's allowed for me to connect with a wide range of folks who wouldn't necessarily

00:41:04.266 --> 00:41:06.266
connect with each other, but will connect with me.

00:41:06.506 --> 00:41:11.626
And I think that's kind of beautiful to be able to connect with people for a

00:41:11.626 --> 00:41:16.906
wide range of reasons, you know, because of my experience on the outside or

00:41:16.906 --> 00:41:20.106
in the space between, I like to say, right, that I exist in the space between.

00:41:20.806 --> 00:41:26.086
And so it's absolutely informed my work, my lived experience, my relationships.

00:41:26.586 --> 00:41:30.446
I mean, my husband is a white man from Midwest. He grew up in Ohio.

00:41:30.666 --> 00:41:31.966
His family is from Indiana originally.

00:41:32.506 --> 00:41:38.666
He is not bilingual. He understands, I'd say, 95 to 98 percent of what we say

00:41:38.666 --> 00:41:41.166
in Spanish, but he does not speak it.

00:41:41.626 --> 00:41:45.886
And he has traveled now internationally more so as an adult.

00:41:46.106 --> 00:41:50.446
But when I met him, he left the country once and then had left it again with

00:41:50.446 --> 00:41:54.806
me in 2018 to meet my family in Guayaquil in Ecuador.

00:41:55.366 --> 00:42:01.606
And yet, because of my experience of not necessarily or rather knowing that

00:42:01.606 --> 00:42:07.086
I won't necessarily know who a person is unless I give them the space to tell me and share.

00:42:08.226 --> 00:42:12.546
I, you know, he's one of the most open-minded, curious, compassionate,

00:42:12.826 --> 00:42:18.146
empathetic, caring individuals who is aware of the inequity that exists in this

00:42:18.146 --> 00:42:19.906
country. You know, he's, he's.

00:42:21.063 --> 00:42:25.203
Disgusted by it, all the while understanding that he has benefited from it,

00:42:25.343 --> 00:42:26.623
right, as a white male in this country.

00:42:26.963 --> 00:42:31.923
He has been completely on board in raising our son to understand the nuance

00:42:31.923 --> 00:42:36.243
and complexity of his multi-ethnic identity, right, despite his presumption of whiteness.

00:42:36.543 --> 00:42:41.403
And so for me, all that is to say that I could have written my husband off if

00:42:41.403 --> 00:42:45.823
it hadn't been for my understanding that our stories are not written on our

00:42:45.823 --> 00:42:47.583
faces, to return to the quote.

00:42:47.943 --> 00:42:52.483
So I would say all that is the outcome of being, of existing in the space between.

00:42:53.023 --> 00:42:59.223
Yeah. And I should have put the quotes on other because, but it shows how you've

00:42:59.223 --> 00:43:04.003
evolved even from writing the book, because that was a term that you had used

00:43:04.003 --> 00:43:07.583
to kind of describe yourself. And it's like, yeah, I don't describe myself as that anymore.

00:43:07.603 --> 00:43:10.723
So that's, that's cool. That just, that shows that growth.

00:43:11.303 --> 00:43:17.443
All right. Is the soul of America strong enough for radical change and reconstruction.

00:43:17.983 --> 00:43:21.623
The soul of America is strong enough for radical change and reconstruction.

00:43:22.503 --> 00:43:24.943
Wow. That's profound.

00:43:26.323 --> 00:43:33.103
I think the soul of America will only be strong enough for that until it reckons with its.

00:43:34.720 --> 00:43:45.220
The past. And with the wrongs it has committed, with the notion of exceptionalism, right?

00:43:45.460 --> 00:43:50.360
I think if all of those things are faced, I believe the soul of America would

00:43:50.360 --> 00:43:53.160
be able to withstand, right?

00:43:53.320 --> 00:43:55.880
And become what it could be.

00:43:56.280 --> 00:44:01.980
But at this point in time, I don't think so. Sadly, I don't because of what I said, right?

00:44:02.160 --> 00:44:06.940
That we have really decided to not face our history head on,

00:44:07.200 --> 00:44:09.300
rewriting, sanitizing.

00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:13.420
And all of that has led to the moment we find ourselves in now in,

00:44:13.460 --> 00:44:18.800
you know, the fifth anniversary of the insurrection on the Capitol in 2021.

00:44:19.260 --> 00:44:23.620
And so I hope that someday that could be the case.

00:44:23.660 --> 00:44:29.580
But given what's going on now and what has gone on, I don't think so. No.

00:44:30.040 --> 00:44:34.200
I got you. I can just imagine you talking to a student and it's like,

00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:39.880
yeah, I think you can do well in this major, but you're not really applying yourself.

00:44:40.060 --> 00:44:42.740
That's where I kind of got my vibe.

00:44:43.660 --> 00:44:48.500
But all right. The teacher. That's right. All right. So let's close this out.

00:44:48.700 --> 00:44:53.260
This is something I'm trying to do with all my guests for this particular year.

00:44:53.580 --> 00:44:55.860
I want you to finish this sentence.

00:44:56.300 --> 00:44:58.440
I have hope because.

00:45:00.928 --> 00:45:09.328
I have hope because I am capable of being and creating the change I wish to see.

00:45:10.028 --> 00:45:18.548
I have hope because of the family I come from and the ancestors who brought me here.

00:45:19.368 --> 00:45:28.288
I have hope because of my son and the compassionate, aware, kind,

00:45:28.688 --> 00:45:31.048
intelligent, and determined individual that he is.

00:45:31.568 --> 00:45:35.908
And I have hope because if I give that up, I have nothing.

00:45:36.988 --> 00:45:43.048
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Naomi Raquel Enright, this was worth the wait.

00:45:43.208 --> 00:45:45.468
I greatly appreciate you coming on.

00:45:45.708 --> 00:45:48.988
Thank you. I greatly appreciate the gift of the book.

00:45:50.015 --> 00:45:55.015
Very, very, like I said, even though it's been written almost seven years ago

00:45:55.015 --> 00:46:00.015
now, it's still very timely and very powerful and very personal.

00:46:00.255 --> 00:46:06.695
It's almost more like a memoir than a, you know, a thought provoking book,

00:46:06.815 --> 00:46:08.835
but yet it still accomplishes both things.

00:46:09.615 --> 00:46:16.555
So if people want to reach out to you and get you to help them understand some

00:46:16.555 --> 00:46:18.015
things, how can they do that?

00:46:18.575 --> 00:46:22.355
Absolutely. I would love for folks to reach out. I'm quite active on LinkedIn,

00:46:22.355 --> 00:46:28.395
but beyond that, my website is www.naomirackel.com.

00:46:28.615 --> 00:46:34.595
And people can reach out to me through my website as well as read my work,

00:46:34.795 --> 00:46:38.675
hear other podcast interviews, and I hope people will.

00:46:38.795 --> 00:46:45.655
I'm always willing and wanting for this kind of interaction and collective effort.

00:46:45.655 --> 00:46:50.375
Well, again, thank you for doing this and much continued success,

00:46:50.615 --> 00:46:56.915
not only this year, but throughout your career and trying to get us on the right path.

00:46:57.055 --> 00:47:02.655
And hopefully we can we can get that strength to do the right thing eventually.

00:47:02.895 --> 00:47:05.375
So, again, thank you for coming on. Thank you.

00:47:26.667 --> 00:47:31.987
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest,

00:47:32.707 --> 00:47:35.187
Dr. Eboni Preston Goddard.

00:47:35.827 --> 00:47:40.267
Led by a call to action, Eboni is a management professional with a background

00:47:40.267 --> 00:47:44.567
in nonprofit administration, program operations, partnerships,

00:47:44.987 --> 00:47:47.207
community engagement and workforce development.

00:47:47.207 --> 00:47:53.527
She has spent the last decade working with public land management agencies on youth programs.

00:47:54.247 --> 00:47:59.147
DEI programming and facilitation, advocacy, community engagement,

00:47:59.507 --> 00:48:03.827
recruitment, inclusive hiring practices, and volunteer engagement.

00:48:03.827 --> 00:48:08.607
Outside of work, Eboni serves as a board member for Justice Outside,

00:48:09.007 --> 00:48:12.967
Georgia Conservation Voters, the Next 100 Coalition,

00:48:13.547 --> 00:48:19.607
the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, and the Association for Outdoor Recreation and Education.

00:48:19.607 --> 00:48:23.207
She holds a BA from Duke University,

00:48:23.887 --> 00:48:30.447
MSW from Columbia University, and MBA and MPA from Kennesaw State University,

00:48:30.447 --> 00:48:35.007
a certificate of business analytics from the Warden School,

00:48:35.287 --> 00:48:40.067
and a PhD in public policy from Southern University and A&M College.

00:48:40.467 --> 00:48:46.487
In her free time, Eboni is an avid hiker, reader, and CrossFit enthusiast.

00:48:46.487 --> 00:48:50.827
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:48:50.827 --> 00:48:53.787
on this podcast, Dr. Eboni Preston Goddard.

00:49:06.340 --> 00:49:11.900
All right. Dr. Eboni Preston Goddard. How are you doing, sister? You doing good?

00:49:12.460 --> 00:49:16.980
I'm great. I'm great. How are you? I'm doing fine, ma'am. Honored to have you come on.

00:49:17.460 --> 00:49:24.260
So I wanted to talk to you about the work that you do dealing with the national parks,

00:49:24.500 --> 00:49:30.840
specifically with the National Parks Conservation Association and how closely

00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:35.680
you relate to the workers and the actual parks themselves.

00:49:36.900 --> 00:49:43.920
And so I'm kind of, kind of in a way, because as we're recording this,

00:49:44.140 --> 00:49:49.840
this is after the young lady had been shot in Memphis,

00:49:50.380 --> 00:49:55.940
I mean, Memphis, Minneapolis, and which is kind of related to what you do because

00:49:55.940 --> 00:49:59.040
when I was like about a month old,

00:49:59.380 --> 00:50:04.720
maybe a little more than a month, there was a lady named Viola Liuzzo,

00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:11.060
I'm sorry, Viola Liuzzo, who died in Alabama,

00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:14.240
and during the summer Montgomery March.

00:50:14.900 --> 00:50:22.240
And the Park Service has memorial for her on the trail because that's part of the Park Service.

00:50:22.380 --> 00:50:27.060
And we'll get into some of the historic stuff, but that's kind of where my mind

00:50:27.060 --> 00:50:31.140
is, but I'm going to push through it, if you forgive me on that.

00:50:32.560 --> 00:50:37.500
So normally how I start these interviews is that I do a couple of icebreakers.

00:50:37.620 --> 00:50:41.780
So the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to.

00:50:42.440 --> 00:50:46.740
And the quote is, let your voice be known. What does that quote mean to you?

00:50:47.891 --> 00:50:51.571
You know, the first thing that popped in my mind in response to that was another

00:50:51.571 --> 00:50:53.891
quote, and it's Booker T.

00:50:54.011 --> 00:50:59.311
Washington, and he said, excellence is to do a common thing in an uncommon way, right?

00:50:59.471 --> 00:51:04.531
And so just using the powers and the strength that we have to share with the

00:51:04.531 --> 00:51:06.571
world, it comes with a lot of responsibility, right?

00:51:06.871 --> 00:51:12.271
And so just being able to live in truth with that and make sure that,

00:51:12.551 --> 00:51:14.931
because unfortunately, these things continue to happen, right?

00:51:14.931 --> 00:51:19.651
You just named two women in less than 30 seconds, right, that have been impacted

00:51:19.651 --> 00:51:23.631
by things that we've seen our community being impacted by over generations.

00:51:23.631 --> 00:51:29.771
And so using that to not lose sight of it, but also find a way to inspire and

00:51:29.771 --> 00:51:32.791
push forward and keep fighting because we have to. Right.

00:51:33.471 --> 00:51:36.991
All right. So now the next one is called 20 questions.

00:51:37.491 --> 00:51:41.851
OK. So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:50.160
Okay. What is one thing that you hope the current administration will or will

00:51:50.160 --> 00:51:52.920
not do during the remainder of their term?

00:51:53.320 --> 00:51:56.700
Do you want me to put my work hat on or is this just Eboni?

00:51:58.460 --> 00:52:02.280
It's just Eboni. It's just Eboni talking. Yeah.

00:52:03.160 --> 00:52:07.320
No more cuts. These cuts have been devastating.

00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:11.500
You know, when we talk about the cuts in jobs, when we talk about the cuts in

00:52:11.500 --> 00:52:15.180
funding, when we talk about the cuts in just positions and agency,

00:52:15.500 --> 00:52:18.240
the impact will be felt for generations.

00:52:19.020 --> 00:52:23.360
I say, you know, as we continue on like a continuing resolution and working

00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:27.260
through past budgets, I say we'll never go back.

00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:29.740
You know, when COVID happened, we say we'll never go back to 2019.

00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:34.600
Right. And like, we'll never go back to the time of the last administration, put a politics aside.

00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:39.380
But to say that even if Trump said, I'm going to reverse everything that I did

00:52:39.380 --> 00:52:42.560
in 2025, it's still going to take generations to recover.

00:52:42.860 --> 00:52:47.360
So to kind of stop the bleeding, if you will, for a little while, just stopping the cuts.

00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:51.960
And I'll leave it there. But certainly there's more we can add to that if there's interest.

00:52:52.420 --> 00:52:56.640
Yeah, yeah. You know, we're going to keep this a safe space for you.

00:52:57.720 --> 00:53:03.300
In that regard. Did you know Betty Reed Soskin? Did you ever meet her?

00:53:03.660 --> 00:53:07.080
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's a good one.

00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:12.340
Yeah. So was she the oldest park ranger when she retired?

00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:18.520
Okay. She was. Yeah. Yeah. So lift her up because she just passed,

00:53:18.620 --> 00:53:21.720
I guess, what, earlier this month or last month? Right.

00:53:22.020 --> 00:53:24.140
Late last month. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

00:53:24.600 --> 00:53:29.940
All right. So what is the National Parks Conservation Association?

00:53:30.967 --> 00:53:34.827
Sure. So we're an advocacy group on behalf of the National Park Service.

00:53:35.207 --> 00:53:39.387
What does that mean for people that don't know about the National Park Service

00:53:39.387 --> 00:53:43.507
or what advocacy means, especially as it relates to a nonprofit?

00:53:44.067 --> 00:53:47.447
We were started by the same people that started the National Park Service,

00:53:47.607 --> 00:53:50.287
right, 1916. We were started three years later.

00:53:50.707 --> 00:53:54.127
And so we're a nonprofit side of it. So as a federal agency,

00:53:54.347 --> 00:53:57.387
there are certain things they can do and say, and then there are certain things

00:53:57.387 --> 00:54:01.047
they can't do and things that they can't say. And so we do it on behalf, right?

00:54:01.247 --> 00:54:05.527
And so if we feel like they're not getting a fair shot, whether it be for funding,

00:54:05.787 --> 00:54:07.287
whether it be an interpretation,

00:54:07.707 --> 00:54:10.627
whether it be environmental threats, and they can't speak out on those,

00:54:10.747 --> 00:54:14.047
whether it be positions, whether there should be more investment in cultural

00:54:14.047 --> 00:54:17.927
resources, whether there should be more investment in the protection of landscapes,

00:54:18.127 --> 00:54:19.667
things like that, we do it on their behalf.

00:54:19.667 --> 00:54:25.247
So we are the only agency that sits as the advocacy organization for the National Park Service.

00:54:25.247 --> 00:54:28.487
Now are you the first African-American to

00:54:28.487 --> 00:54:31.447
serve in that position that you're in I'm not

00:54:31.447 --> 00:54:34.607
the first but we can count on one hand how many there's been

00:54:34.607 --> 00:54:38.387
in a hundred plus years I understand

00:54:38.387 --> 00:54:41.507
I understand you know I'm I I was

00:54:41.507 --> 00:54:44.687
I was the first black sergeant

00:54:44.687 --> 00:54:48.347
at arms for the Mississippi state senate since reconstruction

00:54:48.347 --> 00:54:51.207
and that was there you go so I mean it's

00:54:51.207 --> 00:54:53.987
like you know I tried to

00:54:53.987 --> 00:54:56.947
follow the previous black guy that was blanche k Bruce and

00:54:56.947 --> 00:55:02.347
get into u.s senate but as a whole nother story yeah but yeah so i i definitely

00:55:02.347 --> 00:55:07.427
understand about the rarity and stuff fortunately i kind of set a domino effect

00:55:07.427 --> 00:55:12.367
because the next two or three sergeant arms were african-american so that's

00:55:12.367 --> 00:55:16.547
awesome i'll say all of my predecessors Cheers.

00:55:18.112 --> 00:55:24.032
Two or in the last five years. And then I'm serving with another one right now. So we're in.

00:55:24.832 --> 00:55:26.372
Okay. We're doing the work.

00:55:27.252 --> 00:55:33.692
Yeah. Yeah. How did Dr. Eboni Preston Goddard become a champion for our national parks?

00:55:34.372 --> 00:55:37.892
You know, it just kind of, if I'm being honest, fell into my lap.

00:55:38.232 --> 00:55:42.712
I was one of those students that was just very curious with all the things.

00:55:42.892 --> 00:55:46.332
I went to a university where I lived in a bubble.

00:55:46.672 --> 00:55:49.672
And I kind of lost myself for a little bit, if I'm being honest.

00:55:49.912 --> 00:55:56.672
But my senior year, I was able to go on a week tour around the state of North Carolina with NAACP.

00:55:57.052 --> 00:55:59.512
Their state conference office was right down the street from us.

00:55:59.712 --> 00:56:04.392
And it was the reality check that I say I needed, not to get religious, but it was God's timing.

00:56:04.512 --> 00:56:08.852
I really needed to go on that trip at that time and with those folks and meet

00:56:08.852 --> 00:56:11.732
with different community members to have a reminder like, hey,

00:56:11.812 --> 00:56:12.932
this is right down the road.

00:56:13.232 --> 00:56:17.232
And people are living grossly different lives than you. And all of these things

00:56:17.232 --> 00:56:19.732
could change in a moment. Again, we saw that with COVID.

00:56:20.252 --> 00:56:25.032
But I did that. And so instead of saying my plan for the four years had been

00:56:25.032 --> 00:56:29.252
to go to med school, and I called my mom and I was like, I don't know if right

00:56:29.252 --> 00:56:32.812
now is the time for med school. And so she's like, well, don't go.

00:56:33.112 --> 00:56:37.752
Which I appreciate her for saying that at the time as it really kind of just opened my world up.

00:56:37.852 --> 00:56:42.112
And so I took some time off and I went to teach in Louisiana there.

00:56:42.112 --> 00:56:46.792
I met some social workers that were really doing a lot of good work and I was

00:56:46.792 --> 00:56:51.512
inspired by that work Which I then pivoted from going to med school to school

00:56:51.512 --> 00:56:54.512
of social work where I did that work in New York City.

00:56:55.355 --> 00:56:59.295
That was really important in that it introduced me eventually where I did my

00:56:59.295 --> 00:57:03.135
internship, my second year of graduate school up there at the National Urban League.

00:57:03.295 --> 00:57:07.235
And so to do this work intimately in North Carolina with the NAACP,

00:57:07.415 --> 00:57:11.055
then go to the National Urban League where I focus, yes, on social work,

00:57:11.215 --> 00:57:13.555
but specifically workforce development.

00:57:13.995 --> 00:57:18.775
And I was just really seeing how my first year when I was doing therapy and

00:57:18.775 --> 00:57:21.235
working with communities, everybody came in. I'm hungry.

00:57:21.375 --> 00:57:25.255
I got bills to pay. I have responsibility. Right. And it just really showed

00:57:25.255 --> 00:57:30.055
me as this budding professional, if you will, the importance of the workforce.

00:57:30.195 --> 00:57:34.215
And so to work in that workforce development department nationally,

00:57:34.255 --> 00:57:37.915
but based in New York, was National Urban League really opened my eyes.

00:57:37.915 --> 00:57:42.355
And so after being in New York for a few years, I needed to go back down south.

00:57:42.555 --> 00:57:46.555
I just missed it. My family, everything. I'm a southerner at heart.

00:57:46.755 --> 00:57:49.715
And so I came back down south and I was like, I really want to stick with this

00:57:49.715 --> 00:57:50.855
workforce development stuff.

00:57:51.135 --> 00:57:55.155
So I just started looking for jobs and I found one that happened to be in conservation.

00:57:55.895 --> 00:57:59.895
Didn't know what the National Park Service was, let alone other agencies like

00:57:59.895 --> 00:58:01.755
the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management.

00:58:02.075 --> 00:58:06.535
The list goes on. But I very quickly became very intimately working with them

00:58:06.535 --> 00:58:11.575
as partners and just trying to get young people, young black folks jobs in these spaces.

00:58:11.575 --> 00:58:15.855
As I quickly saw that, hey, there's a lot of good opportunities here that we

00:58:15.855 --> 00:58:17.955
simply don't even know about. Right.

00:58:18.315 --> 00:58:22.795
Opportunities to be leaders in spaces, opportunities to really make an impact

00:58:22.795 --> 00:58:27.715
on policy and interpretation and the representation of what our people come

00:58:27.715 --> 00:58:29.535
to know and what history books look like.

00:58:29.655 --> 00:58:32.795
All of that. And I was like, this is all right here in these couple of agencies.

00:58:32.795 --> 00:58:33.915
He's like, it's really powerful.

00:58:34.355 --> 00:58:37.955
And so I didn't, again, I didn't know anything about it other than I just wanted

00:58:37.955 --> 00:58:42.375
to help people get jobs because I was inspired by that work with the National Urban League.

00:58:42.415 --> 00:58:44.835
But I had certainly found my footing in some places.

00:58:45.263 --> 00:58:49.703
It's been over 10 years and I've continued to be in the space and kind of my

00:58:49.703 --> 00:58:54.463
opportunities have grown as I've been able to join different boards and things like that.

00:58:54.603 --> 00:58:58.463
But then a few years back, I was able to join National Parks Conservation Association.

00:58:58.683 --> 00:59:02.623
And so for me, this was me doing the walk that I had been telling our young

00:59:02.623 --> 00:59:04.523
people to do in those internships.

00:59:04.583 --> 00:59:07.883
And that before I was just advocating for them to be in space, right?

00:59:07.983 --> 00:59:11.043
You can do this job. Look at this. How do we advance your career?

00:59:11.243 --> 00:59:14.063
But it's now it's like, okay, well, I have this policy background.

00:59:14.103 --> 00:59:15.643
I kept going to school, right?

00:59:15.803 --> 00:59:19.643
I have this policy background. I have these connections. I have an understanding.

00:59:20.223 --> 00:59:25.483
This is my responsibility to use it. And so MPCA was the opportunity for me to do that.

00:59:25.583 --> 00:59:29.023
And so I do it thinking about parks. Not everybody still knows about parks.

00:59:29.483 --> 00:59:32.283
Nobody in my family can tell you what I do. Maybe my husband,

00:59:32.423 --> 00:59:33.743
but that's the extent of it, right?

00:59:34.843 --> 00:59:37.283
And they're just like, what, what do you mean you're going to a park?

00:59:37.403 --> 00:59:39.063
Are you okay? My grandmother's 92.

00:59:39.323 --> 00:59:41.623
The first time I told her I was going to the park, probably the last time I

00:59:41.623 --> 00:59:43.723
told her I was going to a park. She's fearful, right?

00:59:44.063 --> 00:59:48.163
Because she was, you know, in high school, five of her best friends were lynched.

00:59:48.363 --> 00:59:51.603
And so like they just hear woods and trees and things like that.

00:59:51.743 --> 00:59:54.503
So carrying all that on my back and say, what do I do?

00:59:54.823 --> 00:59:59.003
And so while I do advocate for these parks, I'm intentional about advocating

00:59:59.003 --> 01:00:00.163
for cultural resources.

01:00:00.523 --> 01:00:02.683
Said before I was planning to go to med school.

01:00:03.163 --> 01:00:06.683
So I have a deep passion for science, natural resources, things like that.

01:00:06.823 --> 01:00:10.743
But I knew that me looking the way I do, coming with the background that I come

01:00:10.743 --> 01:00:15.003
with, that for me to step into this role, that I had a certain task at hand

01:00:15.003 --> 01:00:16.843
and I was really on the cultural side.

01:00:16.963 --> 01:00:20.103
And so that's how I've been able to kind of drive this work for the last few

01:00:20.103 --> 01:00:23.563
years that I've been at the organization and hopefully continue to find ways

01:00:23.563 --> 01:00:26.483
to embed these values in the work that we do every day.

01:00:27.203 --> 01:00:31.403
So how many states do you cover in your work? Eight states.

01:00:32.796 --> 01:00:38.176
All right. President Theodore Roosevelt viewed the parks as irreplaceable heirlooms,

01:00:38.436 --> 01:00:43.956
a sacred heritage to be protected, not exploited for short-term gain.

01:00:44.416 --> 01:00:46.176
Why do you agree with him?

01:00:46.996 --> 01:00:51.356
These places are special when it comes to the resources that are there,

01:00:51.456 --> 01:00:54.816
when it comes to the stories, the people, the people that protected the land,

01:00:54.896 --> 01:00:56.656
the people that cultivated the land,

01:00:56.876 --> 01:00:59.696
the people that still live on the land, the stories that are there,

01:00:59.816 --> 01:01:02.576
the connections that are there. I think it's really important.

01:01:02.816 --> 01:01:06.656
And so these parks are supposed to be places, moments in time where we say this

01:01:06.656 --> 01:01:10.396
has impacted the United States. This has impacted the people.

01:01:10.596 --> 01:01:14.136
And because of that, these are places that everybody should know, right?

01:01:14.676 --> 01:01:19.536
Now there's 433 parks across the system with across my eight regions.

01:01:19.536 --> 01:01:23.696
I have a little over 60, but I also have some national heritage areas as well.

01:01:23.996 --> 01:01:27.856
And so for me, it's like, hey, we need to know the stories of these places as

01:01:27.856 --> 01:01:31.596
they really do impact us. And so I agree with him in that.

01:01:32.076 --> 01:01:36.256
Unfortunately, we don't see the same love and treatment towards all of those

01:01:36.256 --> 01:01:39.776
places and stories. And then there's even more stories that need to be better

01:01:39.776 --> 01:01:42.856
told or more accurately told. And that's the work that I'm doing.

01:01:43.036 --> 01:01:46.216
But yes, we have this groundwork, this framework, if you will,

01:01:46.376 --> 01:01:49.996
to say that these places matter and it's important for each and every one of

01:01:49.996 --> 01:01:51.676
us to know about them and protect them.

01:01:52.456 --> 01:01:57.336
Yeah. How much, You kind of touched on a little bit with your 20 questions answered,

01:01:57.356 --> 01:02:02.216
but how much damage was done by those toward the national parks?

01:02:02.854 --> 01:02:06.154
It was catastrophic. We've seen cuts in positions.

01:02:06.534 --> 01:02:10.814
I'll say this first. In 2024, we had the highest visitation we've ever seen

01:02:10.814 --> 01:02:12.014
to national parks, right?

01:02:12.194 --> 01:02:15.854
Visitation at all-time high, record-breaking numbers at just about every park.

01:02:16.074 --> 01:02:19.074
So people are getting outside. People are coming internationally.

01:02:19.834 --> 01:02:22.234
People are going to their parks. They love their parks. We've seen it.

01:02:22.334 --> 01:02:23.894
It's quite literally in the data.

01:02:24.234 --> 01:02:28.914
And so starting in February, well, January, but the biggest cut was seen in February.

01:02:29.354 --> 01:02:34.014
We saw thousands of people losing positions in the agency. I mean,

01:02:34.114 --> 01:02:37.134
and it didn't stop. So that, we saw cuts in funding.

01:02:37.614 --> 01:02:42.054
Parks were just like, oh, I had this plan. Couldn't do it. You mentioned Selma to Montgomery.

01:02:42.334 --> 01:02:45.614
There was a big anniversary last year that we planned to celebrate.

01:02:45.734 --> 01:02:47.134
We've been working on it for months.

01:02:48.054 --> 01:02:51.714
Then last minute, Parks like, we can't do it. We can't do the security. It's worth the risk.

01:02:51.774 --> 01:02:54.654
We had people that were young folks when they first did the march,

01:02:54.674 --> 01:02:57.074
and now they're about to do it again, and they're bringing their grandchildren.

01:02:57.474 --> 01:03:01.314
And so to say, hey, we can't do this anymore. It hurt, but we couldn't because

01:03:01.314 --> 01:03:04.634
the funding just wasn't there, right? So we've seen it in that way.

01:03:05.154 --> 01:03:09.334
We've seen just with different executive orders and secretary orders,

01:03:09.334 --> 01:03:13.614
what can be interpreted at a park, what's there available in the bookstore,

01:03:13.814 --> 01:03:18.454
what's available for resources for people to have, and just kind of engaging in that conversation,

01:03:18.574 --> 01:03:23.554
especially in places like my civil world parks or civil rights parks or reconstruction

01:03:23.554 --> 01:03:26.074
area, like different, And, you know, these things that aren't,

01:03:26.134 --> 01:03:29.214
they don't always paint us in the best light, but it's important for us to know

01:03:29.214 --> 01:03:31.454
that they folks have been silenced.

01:03:31.534 --> 01:03:34.894
And so that's a big piece of what we're doing right now, combating erasure that's

01:03:34.894 --> 01:03:37.894
happened through those executive and secretarial orders.

01:03:38.094 --> 01:03:42.414
But the biggest thing I would say is funding as it relates again to the staffing

01:03:42.414 --> 01:03:46.374
itself and then programs because they've just ceased. Yeah.

01:03:47.442 --> 01:03:51.182
Why do you think the, well, you kind of touched on a little bit.

01:03:51.322 --> 01:03:55.422
Why do you think the parks have become more popular?

01:03:55.782 --> 01:04:01.722
Because it was like, you know, I know that, you know, people used to always

01:04:01.722 --> 01:04:06.942
talk about, you know, going to like some of the big ones like Grand Canyon or

01:04:06.942 --> 01:04:09.282
Yosemite or, you know, something like that.

01:04:09.282 --> 01:04:16.322
But, you know, a lot of times people don't realize that some of the historical

01:04:16.322 --> 01:04:21.382
sites that are in respective states fall under the National Park Service.

01:04:21.622 --> 01:04:24.702
Yeah. But it seemed as though that, like you said.

01:04:25.639 --> 01:04:31.999
And I guess maybe it was kind of a backlash or, you know, for lack of a better word, from COVID.

01:04:32.299 --> 01:04:35.779
And people were like, OK, we're going to rediscover these things.

01:04:36.359 --> 01:04:41.899
What did the data tell you about that? Does that correlate with what I'm saying?

01:04:42.119 --> 01:04:44.379
Or was there some other factors?

01:04:44.859 --> 01:04:48.219
I think it depends on the data that you're looking at. But I agree.

01:04:48.519 --> 01:04:52.759
I would say kind of looking big picture. Yes. A lot of COVID people are like,

01:04:52.859 --> 01:04:53.979
this is a way to get outside.

01:04:54.639 --> 01:04:59.079
Most parks. I won't say most plus. A lot of parks don't charge fees to get in.

01:04:59.179 --> 01:05:00.879
So it's relatively inexpensive.

01:05:01.299 --> 01:05:05.079
And in that way, it can be accessible, even though some parks are really far

01:05:05.079 --> 01:05:08.659
and it can be difficult to get in or they do have fees and things like that.

01:05:08.779 --> 01:05:10.099
So there's a balance there.

01:05:10.339 --> 01:05:15.719
But I think when I think about black and brown communities, we're just talking about it more.

01:05:15.899 --> 01:05:18.359
Right. It's just like, hey, did you know that this was here?

01:05:18.639 --> 01:05:22.279
Or I even speak for myself. I'm in Atlanta. I can't tell you how many family

01:05:22.279 --> 01:05:25.179
reunions I had at Martin Luther King Jr.

01:05:25.339 --> 01:05:28.519
National Historical Park. I had no idea that it was a part of the national park

01:05:28.519 --> 01:05:30.299
system, right? To your point.

01:05:30.739 --> 01:05:33.659
And so there's a bit more of intentionality that's there.

01:05:33.759 --> 01:05:39.599
And you're seeing parks come up, not to like name drop, but like Joy Reid and Roland Powell.

01:05:39.719 --> 01:05:42.619
They're all talking about parks now. I'm just like, what is this?

01:05:42.659 --> 01:05:44.759
Let me look at it. Oh, there's one in my backyard.

01:05:45.499 --> 01:05:48.379
Oh, there's one in my backyard and it's about somebody that looks like me.

01:05:48.519 --> 01:05:50.719
What's the story there? Let me go find out, right?

01:05:50.959 --> 01:05:54.159
And we've also had the creation of a lot of new parks over, let's say,

01:05:54.239 --> 01:05:59.339
the last 10, 15 years that are more representative of us and our story.

01:05:59.439 --> 01:06:03.279
So I think people are just finding connections that weren't physically there

01:06:03.279 --> 01:06:05.959
before that they didn't know or maybe didn't have the arrowhead,

01:06:06.099 --> 01:06:07.579
if folks recognize that.

01:06:07.719 --> 01:06:12.079
But there's been more things pulling them in to say, hey, this space is for

01:06:12.079 --> 01:06:15.159
you. Even if you're coming from far, you're coming from right down the road.

01:06:15.953 --> 01:06:20.253
Yeah. So you mentioned the Martin Luther King Jr.

01:06:20.553 --> 01:06:24.873
Historical site. What is the significance of designating that?

01:06:25.033 --> 01:06:27.933
Because at one point it was just a historical site.

01:06:28.213 --> 01:06:34.433
And then before Congressman Lewis passed away, he was able to get the legislation

01:06:34.433 --> 01:06:37.053
passed to elevate it to a national park.

01:06:37.233 --> 01:06:39.533
So what's the significance in that?

01:06:40.313 --> 01:06:45.133
Sure, sure. So it was, with that first designation, it was a part of the National

01:06:45.133 --> 01:06:47.453
Park Service, yes, but it was limited.

01:06:47.633 --> 01:06:52.413
So the redesignation allowed for more sites to be a part of it, right?

01:06:52.573 --> 01:06:56.693
So right now, as it stands, we have the firehouse, we have historic Ebenezer,

01:06:56.913 --> 01:06:58.893
we have where Martin Luther King Jr.

01:06:59.133 --> 01:07:02.673
Was born and where he was raised in that house. Over the last couple of years,

01:07:02.893 --> 01:07:05.673
we've, the National Park Service acquired with the help of Robert Smith,

01:07:06.093 --> 01:07:09.833
tech billionaire, the family home. So where Martin and Coretta raised their children.

01:07:10.373 --> 01:07:14.253
And so you're able to tell a fuller story, right? The staff that's there,

01:07:14.353 --> 01:07:16.913
the superintendent, they have a new superintendent, Reggie Chappell,

01:07:17.333 --> 01:07:19.853
Judy Forte. She just retired a few years back.

01:07:20.113 --> 01:07:23.413
Black woman, black man. But they are saying, hey, community,

01:07:23.413 --> 01:07:27.013
we need to really lift this up. And so it's on historic Auburn Avenue.

01:07:27.153 --> 01:07:31.133
And so really showing the power that was in Auburn Avenue. There's a lot of

01:07:31.133 --> 01:07:35.693
folks that were business owners and folks that thrived in the area, Black people, right?

01:07:35.973 --> 01:07:40.253
And to show how they cared and poured into community. And so that redesignation

01:07:40.253 --> 01:07:46.453
allowed for just a fuller, more powerful story to show the impact to the left of Historic Ebenezer.

01:07:46.973 --> 01:07:50.773
There's also the King Center, which Bernice King, Martin Luther King Jr.'s daughter,

01:07:50.953 --> 01:07:54.473
she runs. And it's a really good way to complement that story, too.

01:07:54.673 --> 01:07:59.873
So also to show the beauty of partnership, right? It just happens to be King's

01:07:59.873 --> 01:08:03.173
daughter, which I think is beautiful. We see the same thing with the Megger

01:08:03.173 --> 01:08:07.533
Evers Institute in Jackson, Mississippi, where Rena Evers is leading that effort.

01:08:07.753 --> 01:08:10.693
But it just speaks to the power and the fullness of the story.

01:08:10.833 --> 01:08:15.253
And we've been able to make so much progress in the telling of that work because

01:08:15.253 --> 01:08:17.053
of those partnerships and because of those people.

01:08:17.173 --> 01:08:21.673
So it's exciting to see that re-designation, but also that continued passion

01:08:21.673 --> 01:08:25.753
to share the story of the King family, but also the community family,

01:08:25.753 --> 01:08:29.113
the community as a whole and the family there. Yeah, yeah.

01:08:29.433 --> 01:08:34.493
It's really amazing. I tell people the story. I don't know if it's true, so you can.

01:08:35.263 --> 01:08:38.163
Tell me if I was, you know, exaggerating a little bit.

01:08:38.343 --> 01:08:45.123
But I always say that the Ebenezer, the new Ebenezer church is the only church that the U.S.

01:08:45.263 --> 01:08:48.663
Government has ever built. Now, I don't know if that's a true statement,

01:08:48.683 --> 01:08:53.223
but I say that to people that's like, oh, wow, you know, just to kind of mess with folks.

01:08:53.783 --> 01:08:58.143
I don't know. I don't know. But I'll give you an Ebenezer fact that you could add to that.

01:08:58.263 --> 01:09:01.663
I'm not sure about that, but I can certainly look into it and confirm it for you.

01:09:01.663 --> 01:09:05.343
But since its founding in the late 1800s Ebenezer's

01:09:05.343 --> 01:09:09.243
only had five pastors so starting you

01:09:09.243 --> 01:09:12.263
know many years ago without it wasn't a part of the king family

01:09:12.263 --> 01:09:17.223
but then grandfather king so well his last name was Williams and then daddy

01:09:17.223 --> 01:09:22.223
king or we affectionately call him daddy king right but mlk senior and then

01:09:22.223 --> 01:09:27.083
you know you have to Raphael Warnock now like that's pretty powerful to see that

01:09:27.083 --> 01:09:32.143
over this church has meant so much to so many people and so many community members far and close,

01:09:32.263 --> 01:09:35.883
and for it to only have five pastors in that time is pretty impactful.

01:09:36.883 --> 01:09:43.603
So it's really cool to go to the Ebenezer where Dr.

01:09:43.803 --> 01:09:44.963
King Jr.

01:09:45.543 --> 01:09:50.543
And the daddy, I guess, was the senior pastor still there, but to go in and

01:09:50.543 --> 01:09:54.903
then to sit there and then listen to his voice in the chamber,

01:09:55.083 --> 01:09:57.323
that's a very, very powerful experience.

01:09:57.323 --> 01:10:00.223
And I encourage everybody to do that because

01:10:00.223 --> 01:10:04.843
it kind of sits you in so this and it doesn't play like I have a dream speech

01:10:04.843 --> 01:10:09.363
or anything it plays like sermons that he actually gave at the church so you

01:10:09.363 --> 01:10:15.003
get that ambiance of actually being at the Ebenezer Baptist Church during the

01:10:15.003 --> 01:10:20.043
time he was preaching there so I think that's an incredible thing and I'm glad that.

01:10:20.896 --> 01:10:25.516
The elevation allows you to get more. So when you say the family house,

01:10:25.836 --> 01:10:32.456
so that's that is that the one on English Avenue or in that English Avenue district or.

01:10:33.156 --> 01:10:36.836
Right. That's the one. It's in Vining or in Vine City.

01:10:36.996 --> 01:10:40.556
Right. So that's where he was with Coretta. So that one's not online yet.

01:10:40.556 --> 01:10:43.996
They're still figuring that piece out. Like there was a public comment period.

01:10:44.176 --> 01:10:47.696
Like this is three miles away from where everything else is.

01:10:47.696 --> 01:10:50.556
Families still live here what is parking going

01:10:50.556 --> 01:10:53.476
to look like what does transportation look like a lot of people that

01:10:53.476 --> 01:10:56.496
go to martin luther king jr national historical park are older folks right

01:10:56.496 --> 01:10:59.396
so like how do we care for our elders in this space how

01:10:59.396 --> 01:11:02.196
do we make sure that we're not disrupting community so they're

01:11:02.196 --> 01:11:05.016
still figuring all that stuff out but the most popular one

01:11:05.016 --> 01:11:08.576
right now if you will was where king was raised and

01:11:08.576 --> 01:11:11.356
if you go on the right now it's close but it'll open back

01:11:11.356 --> 01:11:14.016
up fairly soon they're like if you do the

01:11:14.016 --> 01:11:17.396
interpret if you do the tour of the home they're like yeah when

01:11:17.396 --> 01:11:20.176
he was a baby he slept in that drawer right there right and so they've done

01:11:20.176 --> 01:11:23.416
a really good job of keeping things as they were and

01:11:23.416 --> 01:11:26.496
again that helps to have the insight of of the

01:11:26.496 --> 01:11:30.416
the family there and Coretta was even a big part of making sure that things

01:11:30.416 --> 01:11:33.616
looked the way that they needed to and the interpretation was done right before

01:11:33.616 --> 01:11:37.956
her passing too so a lot of work has gone into that but to your point to be

01:11:37.956 --> 01:11:44.216
able to sit in the pews to look and see even the stained glass that's there to see the dolls and how,

01:11:44.256 --> 01:11:46.176
you know, family dinner was really important.

01:11:46.316 --> 01:11:48.436
It's set up that way for a Sunday dinner.

01:11:48.596 --> 01:11:51.276
Just things like that really kind of take you there. And it's really special.

01:11:51.276 --> 01:11:53.756
And it's all free. Yeah, exactly.

01:11:55.195 --> 01:11:58.915
Talk about the Emmett Till project in Mississippi. You mentioned the Megger

01:11:58.915 --> 01:12:01.255
Evers project, but talk about the Emmett Till project.

01:12:02.075 --> 01:12:09.135
Yeah, Emmett Till, man, that's heavy, right? Maybe because I'm a mom of a little boy.

01:12:09.455 --> 01:12:12.095
This is, it's a passion project of mine.

01:12:12.615 --> 01:12:17.215
It's one of our newer parks in the Southeast, and it certainly take a lot of work.

01:12:17.415 --> 01:12:21.015
This year, well, no, we're in January now. So this past year,

01:12:21.075 --> 01:12:26.355
we were able to take a commemorative train ride from Chicago to Mississippi.

01:12:26.695 --> 01:12:31.855
And we were joined by Reverend Wheeler Parker, who was the best friend and cousin of Emmett.

01:12:31.995 --> 01:12:36.815
And they took that train ride down together 70, well, this year will be 71 years ago.

01:12:36.975 --> 01:12:40.095
But 70 years ago, so him and his wife joined us.

01:12:40.415 --> 01:12:44.835
And it's powerful. But this park, it is headquartered, if you will,

01:12:44.935 --> 01:12:45.895
in Sumner, Mississippi.

01:12:46.940 --> 01:12:50.520
But it has three sites to it. One being Robert's Temple, which is in Chicago.

01:12:50.820 --> 01:12:57.240
And then the Grayball Landing where Emmett was found by a young boy that was fishing.

01:12:57.660 --> 01:13:02.040
So we have those three sites. It's appropriately named after Emmett and his

01:13:02.040 --> 01:13:08.660
mother, because yes, it was a tragedy that happened to Emmett in August of 1955.

01:13:09.020 --> 01:13:13.920
But Mamie's work was just getting started, right? And so just to lift up the

01:13:13.920 --> 01:13:15.800
work and advocacy that she did there.

01:13:16.040 --> 01:13:21.680
And so that park is important, but something that I think is really needed and

01:13:21.680 --> 01:13:24.880
special is that myself working in the Southeast region,

01:13:25.380 --> 01:13:28.920
Crystal Davis, who's the Midwest regional manager, so regional director,

01:13:29.120 --> 01:13:33.560
so she's working to support efforts in Chicago. So both of us are Black women.

01:13:33.980 --> 01:13:37.980
Both of us are like, no, this has to be done appropriately. So being very intentional

01:13:37.980 --> 01:13:41.060
about that and just lifting it up and to show the connection.

01:13:41.280 --> 01:13:44.860
So we were constantly talking about, you know, people leaving Mississippi,

01:13:44.860 --> 01:13:49.180
going to Chicago, the Great Migration, the impacts there, the connections there.

01:13:49.680 --> 01:13:53.400
Talking about, you know, a lot of people that were in Chicago were coming from

01:13:53.400 --> 01:13:56.120
Mississippi, like a lot of big names that we know about. Right.

01:13:56.240 --> 01:14:00.340
Mamie herself was born in Mississippi. They have roots there.

01:14:00.340 --> 01:14:03.020
We talk about the closeness between the Till family and.

01:14:03.558 --> 01:14:07.238
That was in Chicago and leaders like Fred Hampton. We talk about the fact when

01:14:07.238 --> 01:14:12.198
Mamie was down in Mississippi, how she had connections and Medgar Evers was very,

01:14:12.338 --> 01:14:16.218
very much right there and present and helping to find witnesses during that

01:14:16.218 --> 01:14:21.698
trial about the leaders like TRM Howard, who did, you know, a speech shortly.

01:14:21.858 --> 01:14:26.258
He was one, keeping Mamie safe during the trial because Sumner was then,

01:14:26.538 --> 01:14:30.898
I get in trouble when I say that it still is, but I'll say it was then a sundown

01:14:30.898 --> 01:14:34.358
town and so Mamie couldn't stay in Sumner where the trial was at the Tallahatchie

01:14:34.358 --> 01:14:38.638
Courthouse so she was going to Mound Bayou talking about the significance and

01:14:38.638 --> 01:14:43.598
the importance of Mound Bayou and the safety that black folks had in that space but then to have Dr.

01:14:43.758 --> 01:14:48.158
T.R.M. Howard leading the way that he was and how he would you know have a he

01:14:48.158 --> 01:14:52.318
would say a speech in Montgomery and then less than 100 days later there you

01:14:52.318 --> 01:14:55.858
have Rosa Parks and those efforts getting started for the bus boycott there.

01:14:55.998 --> 01:14:58.218
So just the connections between people.

01:14:58.398 --> 01:15:02.758
And so using this park to say, Emmett, like what happened to you was tragic,

01:15:02.758 --> 01:15:05.258
but we understand and we got you right.

01:15:05.398 --> 01:15:08.378
And we're going to take care of this story. And the same for his mom,

01:15:08.498 --> 01:15:10.118
because there's a lot of sacrifice.

01:15:10.278 --> 01:15:14.458
Sacrifice I wish that Emmett or Mamie didn't have to face, but to not,

01:15:14.458 --> 01:15:18.678
you know, lose sight of that and make it a point to continue to elevate and

01:15:18.678 --> 01:15:22.158
share the sacrifice and the struggles that folks went to so that we can,

01:15:22.158 --> 01:15:23.678
And, you know, live a better day to day.

01:15:24.438 --> 01:15:32.178
Yeah, my dad and his sister were part of that migration from Mississippi to Chicago for me.

01:15:32.498 --> 01:15:35.258
Okay. And they actually, they didn't get all the way to Chicago.

01:15:35.258 --> 01:15:36.918
They got to Centralia, Illinois.

01:15:37.398 --> 01:15:42.718
Okay. Because my grandma met somebody else and he worked for the railroad,

01:15:43.058 --> 01:15:46.998
Illinois Central Railroad, at their maintenance depot was in Centralia.

01:15:47.638 --> 01:15:51.978
But my dad eventually ended up in Chicago and then that's where I was born.

01:15:52.158 --> 01:15:56.818
And so of course, part of our experience growing up is we learn about Emmett Till.

01:15:57.618 --> 01:16:01.538
So naturally, when I told my dad, I think I'm going to Jackson State University

01:16:01.538 --> 01:16:03.038
to go to college, and he was like,

01:16:04.062 --> 01:16:06.742
you're going back to Mississippi. We were trying to get away from Mississippi.

01:16:06.922 --> 01:16:07.282
You know what I'm saying?

01:16:08.142 --> 01:16:11.722
So, you know, and I ended up spending 34 years of my life down there,

01:16:11.882 --> 01:16:15.602
but, and then I had the privilege of meeting Ms.

01:16:15.682 --> 01:16:18.422
Mamie at the, cause my aunt is named Mamie too.

01:16:18.982 --> 01:16:21.342
And, you know, to meet her and

01:16:21.342 --> 01:16:27.342
just, just, you know, just to be in her presence and talk about her son.

01:16:27.562 --> 01:16:30.902
And then we were dealing with a family member of hers who was,

01:16:31.062 --> 01:16:34.962
who was, we think was murdered, but that's a whole another podcast for another day.

01:16:35.062 --> 01:16:39.282
I may actually do a podcast about that case down the road.

01:16:39.902 --> 01:16:43.502
But, you know, just, just to be in her presence and stuff and,

01:16:43.542 --> 01:16:48.682
and the courage that she displayed during that whole time, it's just,

01:16:48.942 --> 01:16:53.062
it's, it's, it's a tragic story, but it's a, it's a compelling story.

01:16:53.222 --> 01:16:56.442
And it's something that we as people need to know.

01:16:56.502 --> 01:17:01.402
And I'm glad that you and others are connected to make sure that that story

01:17:01.402 --> 01:17:04.382
is told and preserved. I think that's key.

01:17:04.662 --> 01:17:08.502
Because a lot of people don't understand, you know, it's like,

01:17:08.622 --> 01:17:13.482
you know, we talk about the parks and because that falls under the Department of Interior, right?

01:17:14.022 --> 01:17:18.362
Right. Yeah. So, you know, it's like either they say, well, this is white folk

01:17:18.362 --> 01:17:20.922
stuff or Native American stuff, right?

01:17:21.402 --> 01:17:27.822
It don't really concern Black folks. So, you know, the fact that you and Ms.

01:17:27.902 --> 01:17:32.662
Davis and others are engaged in this kind of work and showing the significance

01:17:32.662 --> 01:17:38.702
of the power of the Park Service to tell our stories, I think is very,

01:17:38.822 --> 01:17:42.622
very important. So that leads me to my next to last question.

01:17:42.882 --> 01:17:48.142
What efforts are being made to get more African Americans involved in this conservation work?

01:17:49.091 --> 01:17:54.231
Yeah, I mean, we've been talking about the cultural resource side of it, right?

01:17:54.391 --> 01:17:59.711
And so I'll make a point to say that we are in deep conversation with groups

01:17:59.711 --> 01:18:03.691
like the Association of African American Museums or Carter G.

01:18:03.791 --> 01:18:05.591
Woodson's organization, ASALA.

01:18:06.376 --> 01:18:08.516
And so to make sure that we're all a part of those conversations,

01:18:08.756 --> 01:18:12.256
right? And bringing in other, we say, big green organizations,

01:18:12.256 --> 01:18:14.036
but folks that have a responsibility.

01:18:14.056 --> 01:18:18.316
And you find a lot of Black folks who have been in the space and are like, oh, I'm here.

01:18:18.436 --> 01:18:20.656
Let me use my position and power to do that, right?

01:18:20.796 --> 01:18:24.696
So I think of Dr. Jocelyn Imani, who's with Trust for Public Land now.

01:18:24.816 --> 01:18:26.236
She used to be with the National Park Service.

01:18:26.616 --> 01:18:29.616
Think about people like Brent Legs, who's working with the National Trust for

01:18:29.616 --> 01:18:30.856
Historic Preservation, right?

01:18:31.056 --> 01:18:36.056
They just restored Nina Simone's house in North Carolina. And so it's just people

01:18:36.056 --> 01:18:39.576
that are saying, I am in a position of power and responsibility.

01:18:40.056 --> 01:18:43.916
What am I going to do with it, right? So doing that and lifting that up.

01:18:44.016 --> 01:18:48.456
But then you also have the natural resources side of it or the environmental pieces.

01:18:48.676 --> 01:18:52.196
And so, you know, we name names like Dr. Robert Bullard and Dr.

01:18:52.296 --> 01:18:56.476
Darcelle Taylor and people who are really leading the charge for the EJ work

01:18:56.476 --> 01:18:58.996
and to show we were impacted by this work.

01:18:59.136 --> 01:19:02.716
We're still impacted by this work. Like we have nonprofits like the Hip Hop

01:19:02.716 --> 01:19:06.556
Caucus where Reverend Yearwood is lifting a voice to this and say,

01:19:06.716 --> 01:19:08.456
hey, this stuff matters to you.

01:19:08.576 --> 01:19:12.296
This isn't just to your point. This isn't just their problem or their history.

01:19:12.416 --> 01:19:16.076
And they aren't the people that have resources and they aren't the people that are knowledgeable.

01:19:16.296 --> 01:19:19.456
It's our responsibility to do it, too, because if not us, who?

01:19:19.956 --> 01:19:24.596
Right. People are thinking about us and prioritizing us in a way that we can't.

01:19:24.716 --> 01:19:27.536
And in fact, it's our responsibility to do it because we don't.

01:19:27.736 --> 01:19:31.976
They won't. And so just naming that. And so, as I said, with,

01:19:31.976 --> 01:19:35.536
you know, with Roland Powell and Joy Reid, I mean, she just did a book on Medgar Evers, right?

01:19:35.656 --> 01:19:39.416
Like, these people are naming parks. And so we're finding ways to make it more

01:19:39.416 --> 01:19:43.076
relevant to all the generations. And I think that's really going to be important,

01:19:43.076 --> 01:19:46.396
because we got a lot of barriers against us, unfortunately.

01:19:46.576 --> 01:19:51.056
They're not new, right? I say that the reason we've seen so many attacks against

01:19:51.056 --> 01:19:53.836
so many good things is because we did them well.

01:19:53.836 --> 01:19:57.296
So like dang these folks when they come together they actually know what they're

01:19:57.296 --> 01:20:02.276
doing And so it's going to take more of that But there's a lot of opportunity and hope in that.

01:20:03.010 --> 01:20:05.890
I hope that answered your question. Yeah, yeah, I did.

01:20:06.050 --> 01:20:12.530
But it kind of led me to a follow-up. So is there any kind of thing with the HBCUs?

01:20:12.550 --> 01:20:16.270
Is there any kind of connection there? Or is that something that's being explored?

01:20:16.610 --> 01:20:18.150
I would say that would fall in

01:20:18.150 --> 01:20:23.170
your lap because a lot of HBCUs would be in the states that you work in.

01:20:23.870 --> 01:20:31.090
Right. But is there some kind of program? Because I remember when I was in the state legislature,

01:20:31.510 --> 01:20:40.730
NBCSL meetings, we had the USDA come in and they had set up a program to get

01:20:40.730 --> 01:20:44.350
Black students, especially. 1890 scholars. Huh?

01:20:45.350 --> 01:20:48.010
The 1890 scholars program. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:20:48.250 --> 01:20:53.810
And so, you know, it was just, so is there something similar to that connected

01:20:53.810 --> 01:20:55.250
with the work that you're doing?

01:20:55.930 --> 01:21:00.770
Yeah, yeah. So in a couple of ways. Prior to last year, there was funding.

01:21:00.970 --> 01:21:02.970
So on the National Park Service side, I'll start there.

01:21:03.470 --> 01:21:08.050
There were opportunities for the National Park Service to provide grants to

01:21:08.050 --> 01:21:12.410
HBCUs to help with some of that historic preservation work, which was really important.

01:21:12.510 --> 01:21:16.930
We also have some parks that are centered within an HBCU.

01:21:17.090 --> 01:21:20.390
So Tuskegee, for example, they have the George Washington Cauldron Museum.

01:21:20.590 --> 01:21:24.030
They also have the Booker T. Washington Home, known as the Oaks right there

01:21:24.030 --> 01:21:28.490
on campus. Their headquarters is adjacent to the to the campus in and of itself.

01:21:28.750 --> 01:21:34.730
We we see intentional partnerships with places like maybe the story isn't connected,

01:21:34.930 --> 01:21:38.770
but making a point to have connection with the students with like Fort Monroe

01:21:38.770 --> 01:21:41.830
and Hampton or Norfolk State just because of proximity. Right.

01:21:42.150 --> 01:21:43.510
So things like that are happening.

01:21:44.339 --> 01:21:49.219
But I'll say, too, with my position before I came to MPCA, I was fortunate to

01:21:49.219 --> 01:21:53.599
work with the chief of youth programs and created the HBCUI program.

01:21:53.799 --> 01:21:56.779
So Historically Black Colleges and Universities Internship, right?

01:21:56.919 --> 01:22:01.459
And so we were recruiting students solely from HBCUs and placing them at parks.

01:22:01.819 --> 01:22:06.059
When the program first got started, it was sites that focused on cultural resources.

01:22:06.299 --> 01:22:11.079
But over time, we just hit year 14. We said, hey, it's time that this evolved

01:22:11.079 --> 01:22:14.139
because our students are evolving. They're not just interested in journalism

01:22:14.139 --> 01:22:15.599
and history, which is great.

01:22:15.759 --> 01:22:18.339
If that's what you want to do, do it, right? We need more of those folks.

01:22:18.519 --> 01:22:23.899
But if you're interested in engineering or you're interested in geography or

01:22:23.899 --> 01:22:26.299
archaeology, like there's an opportunity for you.

01:22:26.419 --> 01:22:29.699
You're also needed in these spaces. And so they're working over the summer.

01:22:29.899 --> 01:22:33.599
And what's special about that program is when they finish their program,

01:22:33.639 --> 01:22:36.639
after you achieve a certain amount of hours, they were getting a hiring authority.

01:22:36.899 --> 01:22:40.879
And so if anybody's ever applied for federal jobs, if you're not a vet,

01:22:40.879 --> 01:22:42.559
it's almost impossible to get hired.

01:22:42.699 --> 01:22:44.959
So those hiring authorities made it a lot easier.

01:22:45.359 --> 01:22:48.459
There's a direct hiring authority. There's a public land core hiring authority.

01:22:48.739 --> 01:22:52.919
It made it a whole lot easier for those students to go through the program,

01:22:53.239 --> 01:22:56.379
graduate, and then get a federal position within the National Park Service.

01:22:56.659 --> 01:22:59.179
And so just really excited to kind of see those things come together.

01:22:59.339 --> 01:23:00.439
There's been a lot of successes.

01:23:01.179 --> 01:23:06.059
I think the beautiful part of HBCUI, I'm biased, but, and that some of the people

01:23:06.059 --> 01:23:09.479
that we recruited when they were sophomores, juniors, seniors in the program

01:23:09.479 --> 01:23:13.059
are now the supervisors for some of the current interns that are working.

01:23:13.279 --> 01:23:16.179
So it's something that they believed in, they're passionate about.

01:23:16.699 --> 01:23:20.379
Me being in my position with MPCA, why I don't run the program anymore.

01:23:20.819 --> 01:23:25.179
A lot of my partners at the park, the Rangers are my former students, right?

01:23:25.359 --> 01:23:29.019
And so it's really full circle and it's really personal for me, but it's exciting.

01:23:29.179 --> 01:23:33.919
And it just also just shows the power of HBCUs because going to these spaces

01:23:33.919 --> 01:23:39.059
and being the only person, you know, or going to these very remote spaces where it's just like...

01:23:39.712 --> 01:23:42.712
Where are we? What are we doing? This is what they talked about in the history

01:23:42.712 --> 01:23:46.512
books. You know what I mean? Like, I'm seeing it live and in living color.

01:23:46.692 --> 01:23:50.152
Like, but to say I can do this, right? Because I know I have community,

01:23:50.352 --> 01:23:53.172
whether it be school, whether it be the folks, you know, from the program or

01:23:53.172 --> 01:23:55.752
mentors or things like that. And so just really exciting.

01:23:55.912 --> 01:24:00.232
But yeah, there's a few efforts that are still happening to make sure that those connections are there.

01:24:00.412 --> 01:24:03.992
And then I myself with MPCA, call a spade a spade.

01:24:04.112 --> 01:24:09.432
We are a very white organization. I mean, you can just see it if you look at the staff page, right?

01:24:09.892 --> 01:24:14.552
But to your point, these HBCUs are right in my backyard and I live in Atlanta,

01:24:14.552 --> 01:24:17.152
right? So to say I can't get to an HBCU is absurd.

01:24:17.452 --> 01:24:21.692
And so I make a point to do programming at HBCUs as often as possible,

01:24:22.132 --> 01:24:24.872
talk to interns, professors, things like that to make sure they're connected

01:24:24.872 --> 01:24:29.572
with the parks in the area and that they are a part of that work to advocate for these places.

01:24:30.332 --> 01:24:34.092
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, Jackson State has a school of engineering.

01:24:34.292 --> 01:24:36.412
I just thought I'd throw that out there. I didn't know if you...

01:24:36.412 --> 01:24:39.572
That's right, that's right. But we've got a lot of folks from Jackson State

01:24:39.572 --> 01:24:44.452
that end up at New Orleans Jazz because that band is pretty bad, man.

01:24:44.912 --> 01:24:48.192
It's pretty bad. And they want to end up playing for that park.

01:24:48.972 --> 01:24:50.412
That's right. That's right.

01:24:51.424 --> 01:24:56.684
Last question. Oh, no, before I ask this question, I had a woman on,

01:24:57.064 --> 01:25:02.944
I guess, a couple of years ago now, Rachel Kerr Williams, and she's kind of

01:25:02.944 --> 01:25:05.544
taken over the preservation of a black cemetery.

01:25:05.764 --> 01:25:10.784
Now, I think a lot of the stuff that she was dealing with was with land trust preservation.

01:25:11.544 --> 01:25:17.164
Does the Park Service get engaged with any black cemetery preservation or is

01:25:17.164 --> 01:25:19.004
that strictly under land trust?

01:25:19.464 --> 01:25:24.384
It can. It can get dicey. The first one that pops in mind is Vicksburg,

01:25:24.664 --> 01:25:26.864
right? And you're talking about the U.S. color troops.

01:25:27.124 --> 01:25:30.664
There's more work that can be done. It really just kind of depends.

01:25:31.244 --> 01:25:35.924
Now, that's something that's come up to me. One of my parks in North Carolina is Fort Raleigh.

01:25:36.004 --> 01:25:41.704
And so we had an HBCU intern that was working there and she found out that there was a black cemetery.

01:25:42.164 --> 01:25:44.784
And right now it's under either the airport or the aquarium,

01:25:45.004 --> 01:25:47.904
something like that. It's just like light and erasure.

01:25:48.124 --> 01:25:51.404
And so there's a lot of conversations that need to happen over that.

01:25:51.584 --> 01:25:55.084
Right now, I would probably say the biggest thing is going to be U.S. colored troops.

01:25:55.224 --> 01:25:59.304
And so it's not that it's a special cemetery for them.

01:25:59.424 --> 01:26:02.164
It's just there happen to be black folks that are there where they're honoring

01:26:02.164 --> 01:26:06.524
other folks that have fallen and are buried. But more work can certainly be done there.

01:26:07.284 --> 01:26:14.804
Yeah, I attended a ceremony where they re-intern some black union soldiers at the.

01:26:16.415 --> 01:26:24.335
Grand Gulf Cemetery in Gibson. Yeah. Yeah. So I was just curious about that. All right.

01:26:25.395 --> 01:26:31.955
Excuse me. Let's close it out with this. Finish this sentence. I have hope because.

01:26:33.155 --> 01:26:38.975
They're coming at us so hard. So we must have figured out how to do this.

01:26:39.835 --> 01:26:45.035
Yeah. Yeah. I understand. All right. So, Dr. Goddard, first of all,

01:26:45.215 --> 01:26:47.075
thank you for doing this. Of course.

01:26:47.635 --> 01:26:54.075
You know, when I came across your profile, I said, this is a discussion we need

01:26:54.075 --> 01:26:57.615
to have because I'm all about history.

01:26:58.355 --> 01:27:03.695
And, you know, the work that you have been doing and the Park Service directly

01:27:03.695 --> 01:27:05.555
has been doing is really,

01:27:05.655 --> 01:27:11.075
really commendable in helping us tell our story to remind the nation that our

01:27:11.075 --> 01:27:13.695
story is a part of the overall American story.

01:27:14.195 --> 01:27:19.955
Absolutely. So if people and you're in is the National Parks Conservation Association

01:27:19.955 --> 01:27:21.115
is the nonprofit, right?

01:27:22.032 --> 01:27:27.192
Correct. So how can people get in touch? How can people donate, get involved?

01:27:27.772 --> 01:27:30.912
How can they reach you? Just go ahead and do your spiel.

01:27:31.772 --> 01:27:35.272
Sure, sure. So we have a robust communications team.

01:27:35.992 --> 01:27:38.832
They're working around the clock. It's a pretty big department that we have here.

01:27:38.952 --> 01:27:43.492
And so npca.org, you can find quite a bit of information. If you want to email

01:27:43.492 --> 01:27:47.552
me, you can always reach out to me that way, epreston at npca.org.

01:27:47.572 --> 01:27:51.952
You can give me a phone call if you need to, 404-399-4500.

01:27:52.032 --> 01:27:56.992
I try to make myself accessible to the folks that want to have these conversations and do the work.

01:27:57.192 --> 01:27:59.892
Or there's new opportunity. People give me calls all the time to say,

01:28:00.092 --> 01:28:03.412
I got an idea for a park. Like, let's do it, right? Let's have those conversations.

01:28:03.872 --> 01:28:08.212
But if you want to get involved with advocacy, you can quite literally go to

01:28:08.212 --> 01:28:10.792
the same website, mtca.org, and put advocacy.

01:28:11.272 --> 01:28:14.772
And all the legislation that's out there, if you want to write a member to Congress,

01:28:14.872 --> 01:28:17.332
you want to figure out how to just engage and use your voice,

01:28:17.452 --> 01:28:19.392
all those resources are there. It's all free.

01:28:19.732 --> 01:28:23.792
If you want to donate, you can do that, too. But not to take money away from

01:28:23.792 --> 01:28:25.892
an organization, even though we are a nonprofit.

01:28:26.292 --> 01:28:29.612
Look at those local organizations, too, that are doing this important work and

01:28:29.612 --> 01:28:33.792
see how you can build community with them, whether it be your time, talent or treasure.

01:28:34.052 --> 01:28:36.932
Right. And so I just it takes all of us to do the work.

01:28:37.132 --> 01:28:40.572
And so MPCA is the way that you get your start. I'm happy to do that.

01:28:40.652 --> 01:28:44.152
But we can certainly have conversations about how to advance it as a community.

01:28:44.672 --> 01:28:51.672
Well, again, Dr. Eboni Preston Goddard, I am honored to have had this conversation

01:28:51.672 --> 01:28:54.192
with you, and I'm glad that you were able to come on.

01:28:55.192 --> 01:29:00.532
And, you know, the rule is that I have an open invitation. Once you've been

01:29:00.532 --> 01:29:02.812
a guest, you have an open invitation to come back.

01:29:03.252 --> 01:29:07.432
And so if there's anything new in your world that you want to share,

01:29:07.712 --> 01:29:12.532
feel free to reach out and we'll make that happen. So thank you again for coming on.

01:29:13.092 --> 01:29:16.212
Sounds good. I appreciate that. We got a couple of parks in the works,

01:29:16.212 --> 01:29:20.212
so I'll definitely take you up on that. All right. That sounds like a plan.

01:29:41.689 --> 01:29:48.949
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, George Hornedo.

01:29:49.969 --> 01:29:55.509
Indianapolis-raised George Hornedo is stepping up to fight for it.

01:29:56.109 --> 01:29:59.989
George grew up and still lives on the north side where he learned the values

01:29:59.989 --> 01:30:01.309
that guide him every day.

01:30:01.609 --> 01:30:05.129
Hard work, resilience, and a deep commitment to community.

01:30:05.849 --> 01:30:10.069
Those lessons shaped who he is and inspired his career in public service.

01:30:10.489 --> 01:30:14.589
Throughout his public life, George worked at the highest levels of state and

01:30:14.589 --> 01:30:19.169
national democratic politics, including serving in the Obama administration

01:30:19.169 --> 01:30:20.769
at the U.S. Department of Justice.

01:30:21.189 --> 01:30:25.369
Whether it was working on civil rights or leading national outreach efforts

01:30:25.369 --> 01:30:31.609
at the Obama Foundation to reimagine policing, George focused on bringing people

01:30:31.609 --> 01:30:33.409
together to solve tough challenges.

01:30:33.789 --> 01:30:37.729
George also believes education is a cornerstone of opportunity.

01:30:37.989 --> 01:30:42.609
After graduating from Cornell, Harvard, and George Washington University Law School.

01:30:43.389 --> 01:30:48.709
George dedicated his career to advancing policies that expand access to resources,

01:30:49.109 --> 01:30:53.869
building safer neighborhoods, and creating economic opportunity.

01:30:54.249 --> 01:30:57.889
Now George is running for Congress to bring that experience home.

01:30:58.509 --> 01:31:02.289
Indianapolis deserves leadership with the vision and determination to take on

01:31:02.289 --> 01:31:06.129
our toughest challenges and deliver results for every Hoosier.

01:31:06.389 --> 01:31:12.009
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast.

01:31:24.870 --> 01:31:29.150
All right, George Hornedo. How you doing, sir? You doing good?

01:31:29.730 --> 01:31:33.850
I cannot complain. I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today. How are you?

01:31:34.150 --> 01:31:41.710
I'm doing fine. Like I was saying in the warmup, I'm doing better than you because

01:31:41.710 --> 01:31:45.630
you're running for office and I don't have to do that anymore. You know the grime.

01:31:46.130 --> 01:31:49.690
Yeah. Yeah, especially at the federal level.

01:31:50.230 --> 01:31:53.950
And so we'll get into all of this stuff that you're doing.

01:31:54.190 --> 01:31:58.690
But normally how I start the interviews off is that I do a couple of icebreakers.

01:31:59.810 --> 01:32:05.750
So the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to. And this is your quote.

01:32:06.468 --> 01:32:09.648
Call me whatever you want. Just call me effective.

01:32:11.088 --> 01:32:17.628
I still love hearing it. It's a bar. But I mean, look, I think in our politics,

01:32:17.628 --> 01:32:25.148
we've gotten too into labels and factions and, you know, purity and things like that.

01:32:25.628 --> 01:32:30.108
I'm running a field first campaign. You know, we're on the doors every single day.

01:32:30.268 --> 01:32:33.688
You know, we're phone banking every single day. We've already knocked over 33,000

01:32:33.688 --> 01:32:36.268
doors, made over 60,000 phone calls, right?

01:32:37.108 --> 01:32:41.968
Most people are not thinking of themselves in the ways that those of us that

01:32:41.968 --> 01:32:45.728
are hyper-political think about themselves, right? They just want to see results.

01:32:46.008 --> 01:32:50.308
They don't know whether an issue comes from, is going to be solved by the federal,

01:32:50.468 --> 01:32:52.168
state, or local government. They want to see results.

01:32:52.348 --> 01:32:56.428
They don't know whether something is seen as quote-unquote progressive or quote-unquote

01:32:56.428 --> 01:32:58.228
moderate. They just want to see results.

01:32:59.608 --> 01:33:05.548
The left-right or left-center binary in our politics, to the extent that it

01:33:05.548 --> 01:33:09.428
was ever informative, I don't think it's informative for this moment in time.

01:33:09.768 --> 01:33:14.468
I think the fundamental split in the party right now is not progressive versus

01:33:14.468 --> 01:33:15.768
moderate or young versus old.

01:33:16.188 --> 01:33:19.108
And even fighters versus holders doesn't necessarily get to it.

01:33:19.288 --> 01:33:25.768
I think it's between those that see our systems and institutions as largely

01:33:25.768 --> 01:33:29.828
working and that we simply need to protect them and manage this period of decline

01:33:29.828 --> 01:33:33.988
versus those like myself that say, Hey,

01:33:34.568 --> 01:33:36.908
obviously we want to protect everything we have as best as we can,

01:33:37.048 --> 01:33:40.188
but we also have to acknowledge that we don't have a lot of power right now.

01:33:40.748 --> 01:33:47.048
And we are just a year into this and government already, you know, has done a total 180.

01:33:47.408 --> 01:33:50.788
So whenever Democrats come back into power, I think, you know,

01:33:51.108 --> 01:33:53.388
this chaos will bring about an opportunity to rebuild.

01:33:53.488 --> 01:33:56.788
And the question becomes, do we rebuild back to what we had,

01:33:57.088 --> 01:34:00.548
which I don't think was sufficiently meeting and serving the needs of people, right?

01:34:00.950 --> 01:34:03.470
Or do we have the imagination to think about what it can be?

01:34:03.590 --> 01:34:06.630
And so I think we need a whole new reconstruction, quite frankly.

01:34:07.430 --> 01:34:13.010
And, you know, as we look to that, the ways in which we've seen and felt and

01:34:13.010 --> 01:34:17.170
talked about politics before doesn't matter. It's got to be about results.

01:34:17.370 --> 01:34:20.510
And so if we're going to have a binary, I'd rather it be, you know,

01:34:20.570 --> 01:34:25.250
not left versus right, you know, but I'd rather be up versus down because I

01:34:25.250 --> 01:34:28.710
could give a damn on whether something is seen as progressive or moderate or even conservative.

01:34:28.710 --> 01:34:34.150
Are we materially improving people's lives and helping solve the issues that

01:34:34.150 --> 01:34:37.570
folks are seeing every day? So that's kind of what drives me.

01:34:38.270 --> 01:34:43.550
Got you. All right. So now the next icebreaker is called 20 questions.

01:34:44.390 --> 01:34:48.170
So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

01:34:48.870 --> 01:34:55.650
11. All right. Where do you go to check a fact that you see, hear, or read?

01:34:57.730 --> 01:35:00.590
A couple of different places one I'll check twitter

01:35:00.590 --> 01:35:05.070
and see you know how much something's being talked about and who's talking about

01:35:05.070 --> 01:35:10.250
it and you know look into those sorts of bios because it's a quick way to you

01:35:10.250 --> 01:35:14.530
know I can get a new York times and a CBS and you know all sorts of outlets

01:35:14.530 --> 01:35:18.290
and see if people are talking about something you know so so that's kind of

01:35:18.290 --> 01:35:20.430
where I start and then I'll delve deeper.

01:35:21.663 --> 01:35:27.923
Okay. All right. So I have a simple first question for you. Why politics?

01:35:28.763 --> 01:35:33.043
It's sport with consequence. Look, I love the Pacers. I love the Colts.

01:35:33.163 --> 01:35:35.983
But whoever wins the Super Bowl, whoever wins the NBA Finals,

01:35:36.583 --> 01:35:41.323
it doesn't, outside of, you know, hometown pride, it doesn't materially affect

01:35:41.323 --> 01:35:42.943
my life 20 years down the road.

01:35:43.143 --> 01:35:45.843
But whoever we elect to public office does.

01:35:46.083 --> 01:35:51.323
And, you know, I've been interested in public policy ever since I was young.

01:35:51.483 --> 01:35:55.543
And in part driven by my own kind of, you know, background.

01:35:55.843 --> 01:36:00.183
You know, my parents were high school sweethearts who married young, had me while in college.

01:36:00.483 --> 01:36:03.683
And, you know, in those early years, I don't want to overstate it.

01:36:03.763 --> 01:36:06.363
You know, I had a great childhood, but, you know, we struggled.

01:36:06.623 --> 01:36:10.343
You know, I was for a brief period of time, a wick baby on government formula.

01:36:10.583 --> 01:36:16.423
And as I, you know, got older, I think of that as a tangible example of how

01:36:16.423 --> 01:36:20.023
in my own life, the positive impact that government can have, you know, on people.

01:36:20.383 --> 01:36:25.443
And so, you know, in our, you know, two-party system, right,

01:36:25.863 --> 01:36:29.943
you know, I'm a Democrat because of the values, you know, that I believe the party stands for.

01:36:30.243 --> 01:36:33.603
You know, Big Ten, you know, as big a ten as it may be, it's the values that

01:36:33.603 --> 01:36:36.003
we're pushing for and the different approaches that, you know,

01:36:36.083 --> 01:36:38.363
folks within the party may have. You know.

01:36:39.498 --> 01:36:44.118
I look at things from the lens of how does something serve the underserved child, right?

01:36:44.218 --> 01:36:48.458
So that's kind of a North Star for me, you know, as it comes to the policy side of things.

01:36:48.898 --> 01:36:51.838
But the flip side of that coin is the political side of things.

01:36:52.118 --> 01:36:56.438
I am deeply competitive, you know, and like I said, it's sport with consequence

01:36:56.438 --> 01:37:00.518
and I'm five, seven and a half and I give myself that half, you know,

01:37:00.558 --> 01:37:03.018
so I knew I wasn't going to play, you know, college or professional sports.

01:37:03.018 --> 01:37:08.258
And so, you know, this is my arena. And so how do we improve people's lives

01:37:08.258 --> 01:37:11.838
and do the work day in and day out and honestly try and make people feel seen

01:37:11.838 --> 01:37:13.118
and heard again in our politics?

01:37:13.198 --> 01:37:19.358
Because, you know, as I'm hitting these doors, you know, it is so clear the

01:37:19.358 --> 01:37:22.918
disconnect between the Democratic Party and the people that we claim to serve.

01:37:22.918 --> 01:37:28.898
It is so clear that people are disillusioned and disengaged and don't feel not

01:37:28.898 --> 01:37:32.858
just represented, but don't feel like there is a place for them to come into.

01:37:33.058 --> 01:37:36.558
And so, you know, with this campaign, we're trying to build the vehicle,

01:37:36.778 --> 01:37:39.998
you know, for people to put their energies, put their passions, get involved.

01:37:39.998 --> 01:37:44.398
And especially in a community like Indianapolis, you know, where this is the

01:37:44.398 --> 01:37:48.358
lowest performing congressional district in the whole state and voter turnout

01:37:48.358 --> 01:37:52.798
in a state that is already 50th out of all 50 states in D.C. and voter turnout.

01:37:53.378 --> 01:37:59.098
And, you know, we may be in a blue dot and have a Democratic mayor,

01:37:59.298 --> 01:38:02.318
Democratic member of Congress, a super majority on the city county council,

01:38:02.818 --> 01:38:04.058
Democratic state legislators.

01:38:04.458 --> 01:38:08.778
But if we're not pulling our weight as a community, we're hurting not just ourselves,

01:38:08.898 --> 01:38:11.658
but we're a drag on Democrats across the whole state.

01:38:11.658 --> 01:38:15.238
Because back when the party was competing, even winning statewide,

01:38:15.298 --> 01:38:20.038
it's in large part because Indianapolis, this congressional district, was organized.

01:38:20.498 --> 01:38:24.178
It was the best congressional district in the state and voter turnout. Now we're the worst.

01:38:24.618 --> 01:38:27.518
And so that's some of the work that I'm doing.

01:38:27.518 --> 01:38:32.118
It's not just from a policy perspective, but it's how do we rebuild the party

01:38:32.118 --> 01:38:36.158
that knows how to fight for people again and that brings people into the fold

01:38:36.158 --> 01:38:41.758
as opposed to gatekeeps and tries to rule over the ashes of a broken,

01:38:41.898 --> 01:38:42.978
disorganized operation.

01:38:44.142 --> 01:38:50.342
Okay. All right. So that does lead me into my next question.

01:38:50.722 --> 01:38:55.162
You are challenging a Democratic incumbent in your primary.

01:38:55.722 --> 01:39:00.042
The seat has been held by one family since 1997.

01:39:00.842 --> 01:39:04.902
The incumbent is an African-American and a Muslim.

01:39:05.222 --> 01:39:10.182
How do you plan to overcome all those landmines to get elected?

01:39:10.902 --> 01:39:14.902
Meet people beyond community. I mean, look, I like the incumbent a lot.

01:39:15.022 --> 01:39:17.862
I respect him up until this race, we had a good relationship.

01:39:18.102 --> 01:39:22.222
But sometimes we got to tell the truth. And the truth is that the Center for

01:39:22.222 --> 01:39:26.382
Effective Lawmaking consistently ranks him as one of the least effective members

01:39:26.382 --> 01:39:31.022
of Congress across both parties and across both the House and the Senate.

01:39:31.442 --> 01:39:34.782
In 18 years in office, the only two things that he has been the lead sponsor

01:39:34.782 --> 01:39:39.342
on that have been signed into law is renaming a federal building and naming a memorial.

01:39:39.762 --> 01:39:42.902
You know, we are lagging behind pure cities across the country and how much

01:39:42.902 --> 01:39:43.942
federal funds we're bringing home.

01:39:44.262 --> 01:39:48.082
I know how to do that side of the job. You know, in private practice,

01:39:48.282 --> 01:39:52.062
I've represented the African-American Mayors Association, the cities of Birmingham,

01:39:52.342 --> 01:39:55.962
Jackson, Little Rock, you know, Miami-Dade County, and in just, you know,

01:39:56.382 --> 01:40:00.582
three years have brought nearly $800 million to those communities across a range of projects.

01:40:00.862 --> 01:40:04.802
Whereas the incumbent in 18 years as a member of Congress touts,

01:40:04.822 --> 01:40:06.962
you know, about $1 billion brought to the district.

01:40:07.882 --> 01:40:11.722
When most of that is federal formula funding that was going to come in to the

01:40:11.722 --> 01:40:13.622
district regardless of who was in the seat, right?

01:40:13.802 --> 01:40:16.362
So I think we need somebody that's going to be more proactive in the role.

01:40:16.842 --> 01:40:20.802
You know, two, I talked about the party building piece of this being our only

01:40:20.802 --> 01:40:23.602
safe democratic seat in our congressional delegation.

01:40:23.602 --> 01:40:27.502
So I think whoever sits there needs to not only be, you know,

01:40:27.542 --> 01:40:30.762
our representative with a vision for the community and the work ethic to execute

01:40:30.762 --> 01:40:34.922
upon it, but also take on that party building and party leadership role.

01:40:35.562 --> 01:40:39.742
And so as I'm out there on the doors, there are a couple of different things that I'm hearing.

01:40:40.402 --> 01:40:46.362
I am hearing, first and foremost, thank you, which at this point when people

01:40:46.362 --> 01:40:47.722
say it, I know where they're going with it.

01:40:47.802 --> 01:40:50.662
But earlier on, I was like, you're welcome. But for what?

01:40:51.302 --> 01:40:54.902
And they say for showing up. You're the first candidate. You're the first elected

01:40:54.902 --> 01:40:59.122
official that I've had actually knock on my door and ask my opinion.

01:41:00.142 --> 01:41:04.582
And as proud as I am of that, I think it's also an indictment on the state of

01:41:04.582 --> 01:41:08.762
the party here in Indiana and on some of the leadership like Congressman Carson

01:41:08.762 --> 01:41:10.422
that we have that's been a little bit complacent.

01:41:10.822 --> 01:41:13.842
And so we need to bring people into the fold and energize them.

01:41:14.526 --> 01:41:19.586
You know, I think number two is we're seeing people that just feel so disillusioned,

01:41:19.906 --> 01:41:24.066
you know, so dejected that we have 20 years of one party Republican rule here in Indiana.

01:41:25.066 --> 01:41:29.426
So you don't typically see congressional candidates talking about party building.

01:41:29.686 --> 01:41:32.086
You know, you see them talking about specific policy issues.

01:41:32.286 --> 01:41:35.006
But the way that I see it is that this is a safe Democratic seat.

01:41:35.146 --> 01:41:38.286
Whoever is in it is going to be largely a safe Democratic vote.

01:41:38.286 --> 01:41:42.866
So my issue with Congressman Carson is not about his voting record so much as

01:41:42.866 --> 01:41:48.146
it is how he uses the role, the systems and the structural aspect of things.

01:41:48.726 --> 01:41:52.106
And presence is important at large.

01:41:52.386 --> 01:41:56.366
People don't feel like leadership is present.

01:41:56.486 --> 01:42:01.766
And so they want to feel somebody that's on the ground that's not – you probably

01:42:01.766 --> 01:42:05.006
hear that phrase a lot in democratic politics of like meet people where they are.

01:42:05.006 --> 01:42:10.626
I hate that phrase because to me, it carries with it this implication of kind

01:42:10.626 --> 01:42:12.746
of coming down from one's perch, right?

01:42:13.046 --> 01:42:16.166
You know, be with the plebeians, you know, sort of like vibe.

01:42:16.406 --> 01:42:20.606
For me, it's usually just be in community walking alongside people to begin with, right?

01:42:20.686 --> 01:42:26.866
So how are we doing more to kind of engage and connect and make people feel hope again? Yeah.

01:42:28.806 --> 01:42:30.666
I like the way that you...

01:42:31.891 --> 01:42:38.131
Broke that down about meeting people where they are because it seems like an innocuous phrase,

01:42:38.931 --> 01:42:42.211
but but yeah that top-down

01:42:42.211 --> 01:42:45.851
kind of politics i think i

01:42:45.851 --> 01:42:48.831
think now that the signal is going out that

01:42:48.831 --> 01:42:52.611
that's that's not where we need to be and

01:42:52.611 --> 01:42:56.251
i mean look my career is is

01:42:56.251 --> 01:42:59.071
you know largely the national democratic la guapa right right

01:42:59.071 --> 01:43:02.031
you know there are a whole bunch in Obama world served in the Obama

01:43:02.031 --> 01:43:05.311
administration doing civil rights work with the department of justice a

01:43:05.311 --> 01:43:09.471
whole bunch of presidential campaign headquarters from the Obama in 2012 you

01:43:09.471 --> 01:43:13.571
know Clinton in 16 you know national delegate director and then deputy political

01:43:13.571 --> 01:43:18.931
director you know from buddha judge to Biden voter protection in 2020 before

01:43:18.931 --> 01:43:22.671
doing a lot of that uh municipal representation that I referenced earlier,

01:43:22.951 --> 01:43:27.691
you know, in the private sector, and then eventually starting my own company to do similar work.

01:43:28.660 --> 01:43:31.900
So I know what the rules of the game are, so to speak, right?

01:43:31.980 --> 01:43:34.940
And I know you know it too, where it's, you know, you raise money,

01:43:35.280 --> 01:43:39.060
you hoard that money until the final six to eight weeks, you know,

01:43:39.140 --> 01:43:42.460
and then you broadcast and spend it on paid media to reach people.

01:43:43.000 --> 01:43:48.060
I don't think that model works anymore. I don't think it's what our country

01:43:48.060 --> 01:43:50.080
needs or what our politics, our party needs.

01:43:50.560 --> 01:43:53.360
And so I think we need to get back to the basics, right?

01:43:53.440 --> 01:43:56.440
Nothing I'm doing is new, being out here organizing, you know,

01:43:56.560 --> 01:43:59.580
but we just kind of stop doing it. We need to get to bottom up.

01:43:59.720 --> 01:44:06.180
And so, you know, I came into this campaign saying, look, I know how to run that race.

01:44:06.680 --> 01:44:09.960
But if I didn't know that those were the rules of the game, so to speak,

01:44:10.240 --> 01:44:12.240
how do I think campaign should be run?

01:44:12.240 --> 01:44:16.400
And so the way I think about this is this campaign is a vehicle,

01:44:16.400 --> 01:44:19.220
not just to elect myself, hopefully,

01:44:19.560 --> 01:44:24.000
but to rebuild the party from the bottom up, like I spoke a little bit towards,

01:44:24.160 --> 01:44:28.720
you know, in the wake of the redistricting fight that we had here in Indiana.

01:44:28.720 --> 01:44:31.840
And, you know, thankfully, we successfully pushed back on that.

01:44:32.080 --> 01:44:36.060
You know, I pivoted my campaign to be a vehicle for grassroots defense.

01:44:36.480 --> 01:44:41.760
So in short order, my scrappy grassroots campaign became the largest Democratic

01:44:41.760 --> 01:44:44.960
field operation in the state of Indiana to combat redistricting.

01:44:45.300 --> 01:44:49.140
So, again, similar to people telling me thank you for showing up,

01:44:49.300 --> 01:44:50.900
it's something I'm proud about.

01:44:51.723 --> 01:44:54.243
But it is also an indictment on the state of the party here.

01:44:54.323 --> 01:44:57.223
It shouldn't be me, you know, outperforming the state party,

01:44:57.343 --> 01:45:00.523
outperforming the congressman, outperforming the Democratic mayor or any of

01:45:00.523 --> 01:45:01.463
our Democratic leaders.

01:45:01.863 --> 01:45:06.163
But that's just what it came down to. You know, another thing is,

01:45:06.403 --> 01:45:09.663
you know, with the, you know, the congressional shutdown, the government shutdown

01:45:09.663 --> 01:45:11.983
in November and the food stamps lapse,

01:45:12.343 --> 01:45:17.803
you know, that got me thinking about how can this campaign be a vehicle for mutual aid?

01:45:17.803 --> 01:45:23.203
And so one of the things that I thought about is how the Black Panthers had

01:45:23.203 --> 01:45:26.403
their universal or their free breakfast program, right?

01:45:26.663 --> 01:45:32.883
And so to me, that's an example of a great way to show how any given entity

01:45:32.883 --> 01:45:38.983
adds value to community, and it can be an on-ramp into that entity,

01:45:39.163 --> 01:45:40.883
political or otherwise, right? Right.

01:45:41.483 --> 01:45:45.743
And so, you know, I've been meeting with all sorts of folks from faith leaders

01:45:45.743 --> 01:45:49.583
to neighborhood association presidents to, you know, grassroots organizations.

01:45:50.003 --> 01:45:53.663
And so I thought, OK, how can I connect the dots here? here.

01:45:53.823 --> 01:45:57.423
If this organization has resources, but they don't have bodies and volunteers,

01:45:57.763 --> 01:46:00.443
you know, this group over here has the passion and the volunteers,

01:46:00.503 --> 01:46:01.563
but they don't have the resources.

01:46:01.923 --> 01:46:04.683
And everybody's trying to figure out what can we do in this moment,

01:46:05.063 --> 01:46:08.843
you know, when government has failed us to step up for community,

01:46:08.963 --> 01:46:12.543
neighbors looking after neighbors, then let me try and connect folks, right?

01:46:12.943 --> 01:46:15.983
Or if I've got this big list of all these sorts of people I've been doing,

01:46:16.203 --> 01:46:20.503
you know, outreach to, let me do some research, not just on the resources,

01:46:20.883 --> 01:46:25.603
you know, for food security and, you know, hunger here in Indianapolis, but across the state.

01:46:25.823 --> 01:46:31.643
And let me push it out to that email list and say, hey, this is a living sheet, crowdsourced.

01:46:31.823 --> 01:46:35.683
If you see anything on here that needs edits, let me know. If you know of any

01:46:35.683 --> 01:46:37.663
resources that aren't on here, let me know.

01:46:38.183 --> 01:46:41.623
Just like that, over about 150 entries on it.

01:46:42.397 --> 01:46:45.617
So these are the things, right, to where we talk about power.

01:46:45.937 --> 01:46:50.177
There's actual power and there's symbolic power. As Democrats, you know, in D.C.

01:46:50.257 --> 01:46:53.217
In particular, but including also here in the state of Indiana,

01:46:53.477 --> 01:46:57.437
we may not have a lot of actual power, but it doesn't mean that we don't have

01:46:57.437 --> 01:47:00.237
symbolic power that we can use. We've got convening power.

01:47:00.397 --> 01:47:04.157
We have we can collaborate. We can connect folks. We can, you know,

01:47:04.357 --> 01:47:11.497
kind of play that role in our own communities. And so I see campaigns as a window

01:47:11.497 --> 01:47:12.717
into how one will govern.

01:47:12.897 --> 01:47:16.537
And so that's why I've tried to approach this campaign, you know, in that sort of way.

01:47:17.357 --> 01:47:22.837
Yeah. When you were talking about cities that you worked with,

01:47:22.837 --> 01:47:27.717
it was really, really cool to hear Jackson, Mississippi in that conversation,

01:47:28.057 --> 01:47:31.617
considering I spent like 34 years there. Oh, wow. Yeah.

01:47:32.417 --> 01:47:38.117
And but Indianapolis is also a very special city to me. My mom was born and raised there.

01:47:38.417 --> 01:47:41.097
She went to Short Ridge High School, as a matter of fact. Okay.

01:47:41.537 --> 01:47:47.377
Amazing. And I spent many a summer there in my youth, hanging out with my many, many first cousins.

01:47:47.677 --> 01:47:53.157
What are the issues that Indy residents are dealing with that you feel you can change or improve?

01:47:54.433 --> 01:48:00.313
So I've got on my website, the vision page, right? I've got a national agenda

01:48:00.313 --> 01:48:02.013
that I call the FairShot Agenda.

01:48:03.293 --> 01:48:06.553
And that has five different buckets under it.

01:48:06.773 --> 01:48:10.213
It's an economy that works, you know, a stronger foundation,

01:48:10.433 --> 01:48:15.813
a safer city, you know, a sustainable future, and a democracy that puts people first.

01:48:16.053 --> 01:48:18.733
Within those, it's a slew of different policy positions.

01:48:19.273 --> 01:48:23.473
And they all kind of fall under the bucket of the FairShot agenda because I

01:48:23.473 --> 01:48:28.553
referenced earlier a little bit about my background growing up and you've heard

01:48:28.553 --> 01:48:32.273
a little bit about my professional background and experiences and I've been

01:48:32.273 --> 01:48:34.453
able to have some great educational opportunities as well.

01:48:34.573 --> 01:48:37.833
Went to Cornell for undergrad, Harvard for my master's in education policy,

01:48:38.353 --> 01:48:42.333
George Washington University for law school and look, I've been very fortunate.

01:48:42.453 --> 01:48:46.433
I've achieved my own American dream but I can't overlook the fact that that

01:48:46.433 --> 01:48:48.433
is increasingly out of reach for more and more people.

01:48:48.733 --> 01:48:54.473
So to me, the issue that I've always been most animated by personally is poverty,

01:48:54.493 --> 01:48:59.613
because I think it is the single biggest, most shameful policy failure in this country.

01:49:00.033 --> 01:49:05.213
But I see poverty not as a specific issue so much as it is a lens and framework

01:49:05.213 --> 01:49:09.453
by which to look at every other issue, whether it be jobs and economic development,

01:49:10.093 --> 01:49:14.713
housing and urban development, environmental justice, educational and health

01:49:14.713 --> 01:49:17.333
outcomes and disparities.

01:49:18.053 --> 01:49:22.093
And I think about the fact that one in four, maybe one in five,

01:49:22.133 --> 01:49:24.813
you know, kids here in the district live in poverty.

01:49:25.173 --> 01:49:29.793
You know, that is as shocking as it is unacceptable. And that's based off metrics

01:49:29.793 --> 01:49:33.653
developed 60 years ago by the Department of Labor when, you know,

01:49:33.753 --> 01:49:36.533
food was one third of a household's expenses and now it's one eighth.

01:49:37.464 --> 01:49:41.484
And so the United Way of Central Indiana has their own metric system called

01:49:41.484 --> 01:49:47.284
ALIS, Asset Living, Income Compensated and Employed, where essentially it's,

01:49:47.524 --> 01:49:50.164
hey, you may not technically be in poverty, but you're just barely making it.

01:49:50.504 --> 01:49:55.824
And so with their metric system, it shows that 40% of folks here in Marion County,

01:49:56.024 --> 01:49:58.644
you know, Indianapolis, live in poverty.

01:49:59.104 --> 01:50:02.624
And in some of these neighborhoods, it's as high as 77, you know, 80%.

01:50:03.444 --> 01:50:07.244
That's unbelievable. That's ridiculous and just completely unacceptable.

01:50:07.464 --> 01:50:10.144
In the United States of America in, you know, 2026.

01:50:11.304 --> 01:50:14.444
And, you know, it's not unique to us at the same time.

01:50:14.784 --> 01:50:18.064
And so that's where that fair shot agenda comes in.

01:50:18.404 --> 01:50:24.184
And that's a national thing. But I also have three kind of policy white papers, you know,

01:50:24.684 --> 01:50:28.664
in conjunction working with policy experts and folks here on the ground in Indianapolis,

01:50:28.844 --> 01:50:33.004
you know, that do this work day in and day out on the three issues that I've

01:50:33.004 --> 01:50:35.864
heard the most about on the doors from community members.

01:50:36.464 --> 01:50:39.624
Number one, you know, you may not believe it, but it's roads.

01:50:40.024 --> 01:50:44.404
You know, we are the worst in the entire state in infrastructure.

01:50:44.744 --> 01:50:47.904
And the state is ranked dead last in the country in infrastructure.

01:50:48.364 --> 01:50:54.124
Our craters are like potholes, right? And it's a $500 million a year shortfall,

01:50:54.324 --> 01:50:56.784
you know, to be able to address it at the scale that's needed.

01:50:57.124 --> 01:51:00.384
You know, so this is something that seems so basic.

01:51:00.964 --> 01:51:04.664
And it's something that doesn't discriminate. You know, these roads are tearing

01:51:04.664 --> 01:51:06.144
up everybody's cars. right?

01:51:06.524 --> 01:51:09.644
But it's also one of those things where there is inequity of,

01:51:09.824 --> 01:51:13.564
you know, what roads are getting fixed first, right? And, you know.

01:51:14.554 --> 01:51:17.794
If you're somebody that's struggling and living paycheck to paycheck and you

01:51:17.794 --> 01:51:22.834
bust a tire and that's an unexpected expense, right? There's an economic argument to all this too, right?

01:51:23.074 --> 01:51:26.694
So fix the damn roads, you know, is a white paper and a plan that I have around

01:51:26.694 --> 01:51:29.674
that, that I hear constantly throughout the district.

01:51:30.094 --> 01:51:32.554
The other one is, you know, make housing affordable.

01:51:32.994 --> 01:51:37.014
You know, we've got about half of the district, you know, that rent.

01:51:37.654 --> 01:51:41.854
And, you know, there's even more of the district, you know, that don't cleanly

01:51:41.854 --> 01:51:45.174
fall into the rent versus, you know, ownership side of things.

01:51:45.774 --> 01:51:49.974
Because, you know, as I'm canvassing across the city, you see how many of these

01:51:49.974 --> 01:51:52.774
houses are multi-generation, right?

01:51:52.954 --> 01:51:56.514
You'll have, you know, a grandmother and, you know, her son and,

01:51:56.574 --> 01:51:59.394
you know, the six-year-old grandson, right?

01:51:59.714 --> 01:52:02.474
You know, and this is how a lot of folks in the community are growing up.

01:52:03.274 --> 01:52:06.414
And it's not, sometimes it's cultural, right? Right.

01:52:06.674 --> 01:52:10.454
You know, but oftentimes it's just need, you know, it's necessity.

01:52:10.654 --> 01:52:14.254
It's, it's, you know, you don't have the ability to go off on your own and buy something.

01:52:14.694 --> 01:52:18.154
So, so that's a reality in this. So we've got a plan for that.

01:52:18.294 --> 01:52:22.614
And then homelessness, you know, is a really big issue here in the community.

01:52:23.234 --> 01:52:28.354
And, and with all of these things, one of the things that I often hear from

01:52:28.354 --> 01:52:31.194
people is, oh, well, that's a local issue.

01:52:31.534 --> 01:52:33.454
Oh, well, that's a state issue. Right.

01:52:33.934 --> 01:52:38.114
But what I say to people is anything that's a local or state issue can also

01:52:38.114 --> 01:52:39.614
be a federal issue, right?

01:52:40.094 --> 01:52:42.874
You know, let's take roads as an example.

01:52:43.839 --> 01:52:48.479
If I am a more proactive member of Congress, you know, bringing home more federal

01:52:48.479 --> 01:52:54.179
funds on any given issue, does that free up, you know, the city budget to put

01:52:54.179 --> 01:52:56.039
more money towards, you know, roads?

01:52:56.539 --> 01:53:00.359
Or even beyond that, I may not like what Republicans are doing right now in

01:53:00.359 --> 01:53:02.759
D.C., but we can't say that they don't think outside of the box.

01:53:03.139 --> 01:53:05.739
You know, so where are we thinking outside of the box with things?

01:53:05.739 --> 01:53:07.379
So I think about, you know,

01:53:07.799 --> 01:53:11.979
the surface transportation reauthorization program, not to get too granular, but,

01:53:12.239 --> 01:53:19.259
you know, it is a federal funding formula program where there is a set amount

01:53:19.259 --> 01:53:23.659
of money that will flow through to the state, you know, for any given issue.

01:53:24.999 --> 01:53:28.359
And Indianapolis is not unlike a lot of the cities that I represented.

01:53:28.679 --> 01:53:33.719
Democratic cities, you know, often but not always capital cities and Republican

01:53:33.719 --> 01:53:35.779
states, just like Jackson, right?

01:53:36.279 --> 01:53:40.439
Where there is a dynamic between the Republican leadership and the state trying

01:53:40.439 --> 01:53:42.019
to stick it to that Democratic city.

01:53:42.259 --> 01:53:46.619
And what it often means is that cities like, you know, Indianapolis and Jackson

01:53:46.619 --> 01:53:49.359
don't see its fair share of resources.

01:53:49.359 --> 01:53:54.379
And so how can we put together some sort of coalition to advocate for rethinking

01:53:54.379 --> 01:53:58.959
that federal funding formula so that it takes some of these nuances into account

01:53:58.959 --> 01:54:01.259
and communities like ours aren't left behind?

01:54:01.799 --> 01:54:04.599
Something like that wouldn't just have a transformative impact when it comes

01:54:04.599 --> 01:54:10.179
to roads, but on any given issue in which there's a federal formula program.

01:54:10.179 --> 01:54:13.139
And so these are the sorts of things that I think about.

01:54:13.859 --> 01:54:17.719
And I guess also one of the things that I think about that I referenced earlier

01:54:17.719 --> 01:54:20.939
is people aren't thinking about what's solved by the federal government versus

01:54:20.939 --> 01:54:22.959
state versus local. They just want solutions, right?

01:54:23.239 --> 01:54:28.079
And so how do we break down the silos between every level of government? Because.

01:54:29.237 --> 01:54:34.577
Look, vision building is not easy. You know, rallying people around a vision is even harder.

01:54:35.477 --> 01:54:40.437
Executing upon a vision is arguably the hardest. But unless you have a vision,

01:54:40.617 --> 01:54:41.837
then you are walking aimlessly.

01:54:42.277 --> 01:54:46.057
And I feel like as a community here from a vision and policy perspective,

01:54:46.437 --> 01:54:49.137
you know, as a state, you know, we've been walking aimlessly.

01:54:49.377 --> 01:54:52.717
I feel like the Democratic Party here in Indianapolis, here in Indiana,

01:54:53.277 --> 01:54:59.377
you know, across the country, we're walking aimlessly. And so we need leaders that have vision.

01:54:59.597 --> 01:55:06.377
We need leaders that have the work ethic to execute and rally people around

01:55:06.377 --> 01:55:09.057
such vision. And so that's what I'm trying to bring to the table here.

01:55:10.397 --> 01:55:17.437
Yeah. All right. So are Hoosiers concerned about the Epstein files? Yeah.

01:55:18.930 --> 01:55:22.210
And that's actually one of the things that has surprised me on the doors.

01:55:22.230 --> 01:55:25.630
It's not like I'm going door to door and saying, hey, what do you think about the Epstein files?

01:55:26.210 --> 01:55:30.270
But people are talking to me constantly about the issues that are most important to them.

01:55:31.010 --> 01:55:35.930
And that's not top of mind, where it's not something people are offering up.

01:55:35.930 --> 01:55:45.230
To me, it is something I am personally very interested in because I see it as

01:55:45.230 --> 01:55:46.770
bigger than just a crime.

01:55:47.030 --> 01:55:49.710
To me, this is an issue of equal justice.

01:55:50.050 --> 01:55:59.470
If we cannot trust in our justice system that it is going to be applied to everybody,

01:55:59.870 --> 01:56:04.650
then how does that erode the way that we see our institutions?

01:56:05.350 --> 01:56:08.650
You know, there shouldn't be a different set of rules for the wealthy and the

01:56:08.650 --> 01:56:10.210
powerful, the elite, the connected.

01:56:10.470 --> 01:56:14.970
And that's what we've been seeing. And so I think this is something that we

01:56:14.970 --> 01:56:19.190
need something more akin to like the 9-11 commission, you know,

01:56:19.190 --> 01:56:21.730
to really look at it and root everything out.

01:56:21.830 --> 01:56:26.190
And it makes me think as a parallel sort of side of things.

01:56:26.930 --> 01:56:31.550
I've never been one for litmus tests because I think it distracts from,

01:56:31.650 --> 01:56:33.970
you know, building governing coalitions.

01:56:35.490 --> 01:56:38.910
But with everything that we're seeing across the country right now and with

01:56:38.910 --> 01:56:42.310
the Trump administration and just thinking back to the other day in Minneapolis,

01:56:43.130 --> 01:56:45.210
with the tragic murder there.

01:56:46.576 --> 01:56:51.176
We need leaders that, especially in 2028, when thinking from presidential candidates,

01:56:51.396 --> 01:56:54.956
we need folks that aren't just going to, in a post-Trump era.

01:56:55.796 --> 01:56:57.816
Talk about moving on and talk about healing.

01:56:58.596 --> 01:57:01.516
I believe that we can't heal until there's a reckoning.

01:57:02.236 --> 01:57:05.996
You know, and so we have to, sunlight is the best disinfectant.

01:57:06.196 --> 01:57:11.636
We have to root out, you know, all the corruption that we're seeing and bring

01:57:11.636 --> 01:57:14.536
folks to justice for it. There has to be accountability, because if there's

01:57:14.536 --> 01:57:17.176
not, then how do we take any of this seriously?

01:57:17.736 --> 01:57:22.536
And so, you know, I feel the same way on that with respect to Epstein-Files.

01:57:23.056 --> 01:57:26.536
I don't care who surfaced in it. It could be Democrat. It could be Republican.

01:57:26.996 --> 01:57:30.616
It doesn't matter. It's not about party. It's not about tribalism,

01:57:30.996 --> 01:57:32.136
you know, getting to your corners.

01:57:32.676 --> 01:57:36.856
People have to be held accountable for their actions. Simple as that. Yeah.

01:57:37.276 --> 01:57:42.836
So since you brought up the killing of Renee Good in Minneapolis,

01:57:43.436 --> 01:57:53.356
do you feel that ICE as it's currently constructed needs to be abolished or

01:57:53.356 --> 01:57:57.416
is there some workaround that you can envision?

01:57:57.416 --> 01:58:02.896
I mean, no, no, ICE absolutely needs to be abolished, you know, in its form now.

01:58:03.076 --> 01:58:06.976
But, you know, honestly, abolishing ICE is, you know, the moderate position

01:58:06.976 --> 01:58:08.496
at this point. It's not just that.

01:58:08.656 --> 01:58:13.316
It's we need to, you know, highlight who these folks are that are,

01:58:13.356 --> 01:58:16.976
you know, behaving in this manner, right? And, you know.

01:58:18.281 --> 01:58:20.941
Not just Minneapolis, we saw in Chicago a couple months ago,

01:58:21.081 --> 01:58:25.861
you've got ICE agents that are, you know, using pepper spray on Chicago police.

01:58:26.361 --> 01:58:29.721
So what happens to all, what happened to all the folks that talk about the idea

01:58:29.721 --> 01:58:31.161
of Blue Lives Matter, right?

01:58:31.401 --> 01:58:34.861
You know, and so it's like, we have to be consistent when we're talking about

01:58:34.861 --> 01:58:38.361
things, you know, not just, you know, oh, it's convenient when it's for something

01:58:38.361 --> 01:58:41.361
I want, you know, but otherwise it's not, right?

01:58:41.481 --> 01:58:46.141
And so for For me, I understand that politics is a game of teams and this and that.

01:58:46.481 --> 01:58:50.441
I don't play that. Right. I play like what are the values?

01:58:50.721 --> 01:58:54.601
What are what are the beliefs? What are the systems? What are the structures that we need?

01:58:54.821 --> 01:58:58.501
You know, putting people first. How are we thinking about like the impact on

01:58:58.501 --> 01:58:59.561
folks at the end of the day?

01:58:59.841 --> 01:59:03.461
And everything else is noise. Everything else is theater. Yeah.

01:59:04.301 --> 01:59:09.221
I think you kind of answered my question about the supporting the Democrats

01:59:09.221 --> 01:59:11.081
position during the government shutdown.

01:59:12.001 --> 01:59:15.581
Do you support the United States making Venezuela U.S.

01:59:15.701 --> 01:59:20.441
Territory by capturing Nicolas Maduro? That's ridiculous.

01:59:22.161 --> 01:59:29.161
I mean, it's like we got rising utility rates and all these data centers.

01:59:29.361 --> 01:59:31.901
We've got, you know, groceries through the roof.

01:59:32.201 --> 01:59:37.101
I mean, damn, I ordered some Taco Bell the other day on Uber Eats.

01:59:37.181 --> 01:59:39.421
And I was like, when did it get this expensive, right? You know,

01:59:39.701 --> 01:59:44.121
like we've got folks, you know, struggling with health care costs,

01:59:44.361 --> 01:59:46.281
you know, everything across the board.

01:59:46.841 --> 01:59:51.401
It shouldn't be this hard to get by, you know, and Trump talked about trying

01:59:51.401 --> 01:59:53.821
to address these issues in the affordability crisis.

01:59:54.041 --> 01:59:58.041
Yet here he is doing everything else but that, you know, so it's like we got

01:59:58.041 --> 02:00:01.321
to keep our eye on the ball and do what actually affects people here at home,

02:00:01.341 --> 02:00:04.721
not be trying to do anything and everything all over the world.

02:00:04.861 --> 02:00:09.241
And so it's just a whole mess what we're seeing right now. So in light of that,

02:00:09.421 --> 02:00:16.121
do you support military aid to Ukraine and do you support military aid to Israel?

02:00:17.175 --> 02:00:20.435
I mean, military aid to Ukraine in this moment, absolutely.

02:00:20.755 --> 02:00:24.195
You know, military aid to Israel in this moment. You know, I don't believe that

02:00:24.195 --> 02:00:29.615
we should be providing offensive weapons to any nation unless it is in accordance

02:00:29.615 --> 02:00:33.255
with international humanitarian law. And that's just simply not what we've been seeing.

02:00:35.175 --> 02:00:39.695
Yeah. Taking into account that less than 10 percent of your state's population

02:00:39.695 --> 02:00:44.795
is African-American, what is your position on reparations?

02:00:45.435 --> 02:00:49.175
You know it's hey you know it's hey I hear

02:00:49.175 --> 02:00:52.135
that all the time and my question is like what exactly like

02:00:52.135 --> 02:00:55.595
I know what it means right but like walk

02:00:55.595 --> 02:00:58.995
it out for me right and and so I think

02:00:58.995 --> 02:01:01.895
I'm I'm always open to studies so

02:01:01.895 --> 02:01:06.495
I could be told what would this look like is it x amount of money to y amount

02:01:06.495 --> 02:01:10.715
of people right like it's a buzzword at this point but it's never actually been

02:01:10.715 --> 02:01:15.175
you know flowed out I think what's more helpful and what I think about is how

02:01:15.175 --> 02:01:20.115
do we repair systems so that there's not, you know, discriminatory effects?

02:01:20.335 --> 02:01:27.835
How do we make sure that there's, you know, equity in anything that we do,

02:01:27.955 --> 02:01:31.475
you know, moving forward and that we're not, you know, inhibiting communities,

02:01:31.915 --> 02:01:34.655
especially communities that have a history of being, you know,

02:01:34.795 --> 02:01:36.115
marginalized and underserved?

02:01:36.115 --> 02:01:41.095
You know, how do we think from a policy perspective, you know,

02:01:42.215 --> 02:01:44.215
trying to think of a concrete example, right?

02:01:45.720 --> 02:01:48.740
You know, we talked a little bit about poverty earlier, right?

02:01:49.280 --> 02:01:52.460
Poverty is something that hits everybody, but it disproportionately affects,

02:01:52.520 --> 02:01:54.700
you know, black and brown communities, right? And to your question,

02:01:54.780 --> 02:01:55.620
I guess, with the black community.

02:01:55.940 --> 02:02:00.940
So what are we doing to make sure that we are decreasing, you know, poverty, right?

02:02:01.040 --> 02:02:06.420
What are we doing to make sure that, you know, everybody has the healthcare that they need, right?

02:02:06.600 --> 02:02:09.660
What are we doing to make sure that everybody has, you know,

02:02:09.740 --> 02:02:11.100
the food that they need, right?

02:02:11.320 --> 02:02:15.960
And so all of these difficult issues, you know, have a disproportionate effect

02:02:15.960 --> 02:02:17.340
on communities of color, right?

02:02:17.500 --> 02:02:23.540
And so doing more to put resources towards that, I think, is a way of repair in my mind.

02:02:23.700 --> 02:02:27.100
And so a budget is a moral document.

02:02:28.020 --> 02:02:36.020
And I also believe that a country or a community is only as strong as its most vulnerable.

02:02:37.260 --> 02:02:42.940
And the fact that we have so many people struggling still is an indictment on our priorities.

02:02:43.280 --> 02:02:45.840
And so I believe and repair, absolutely.

02:02:46.340 --> 02:02:51.860
But it is about the way of getting there. And so the way of getting there,

02:02:51.980 --> 02:02:58.220
in my mind, comes through working within systems or building new systems to the,

02:02:58.891 --> 02:03:02.171
allow for everybody to thrive and live lives of dignity and success.

02:03:02.691 --> 02:03:06.351
You know, if there are other ways of getting there, I'm always open to it.

02:03:06.471 --> 02:03:08.771
But I'd love to see kind of that laid out, what it looks like.

02:03:09.331 --> 02:03:17.551
Yeah. And so H.R. 40 has been a bill that's been introduced ever since John

02:03:17.551 --> 02:03:20.951
Conyers has been pushing in, I guess, in 89.

02:03:21.791 --> 02:03:28.211
And so that bill is basically just to create what you were referring to as a

02:03:28.211 --> 02:03:36.211
study committee to kind of get to what are the issues and what can Congress

02:03:36.211 --> 02:03:38.411
do or what should the federal government do.

02:03:39.711 --> 02:03:46.571
And so if H.R. 40 came before you for a vote, you would favor that.

02:03:46.911 --> 02:03:48.491
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Okay.

02:03:49.031 --> 02:03:55.311
Since the circuits of the U.S. Court of Appeals are assigned a circuit justice

02:03:55.311 --> 02:04:00.631
from the United States Supreme Court, and there are 13 courts of appeal circuits,

02:04:00.931 --> 02:04:05.551
would you vote for an expansion of the U.S. Supreme Court to 13 justices?

02:04:06.151 --> 02:04:10.191
Absolutely. I think we also need term limits on justices. We need term limits

02:04:10.191 --> 02:04:11.891
on, you know, members of Congress.

02:04:12.571 --> 02:04:17.791
What do you think is a fair, because in your case, you'd have to get elected

02:04:17.791 --> 02:04:24.211
three times before you get vested and get that lifetime check. So what would be?

02:04:24.671 --> 02:04:27.611
I put 18 years. Okay.

02:04:28.491 --> 02:04:32.971
Okay. That's my policy platform, 18 years for members of Congress. Okay.

02:04:33.751 --> 02:04:39.231
Why is 2026 going to be a blue wave for Democrats? Okay.

02:04:40.158 --> 02:04:46.498
I mean, you've got folks in the Trump coalition that are falling off for different issues.

02:04:46.618 --> 02:04:49.178
For some, it's because of the impacts of terrorists. For others,

02:04:49.278 --> 02:04:50.558
it's because of Epstein files.

02:04:50.818 --> 02:04:56.358
You know, it's going to continue to be the case, right? We're seeing chaos instead of competence.

02:04:56.678 --> 02:05:00.698
We're seeing, like we talked about, a focus on everybody but Americans.

02:05:00.938 --> 02:05:07.638
We're seeing, you know, we are not seeing what Trump promised his voters.

02:05:07.638 --> 02:05:11.998
And they're seeing that too, which is why his popularity is,

02:05:11.998 --> 02:05:13.938
you know, declining rapidly.

02:05:14.418 --> 02:05:19.118
It's because his popularity is declining rapidly and his knowledge that if Democrats

02:05:19.118 --> 02:05:23.298
win the House, they'll have investigative powers and authorities to look into his corruption.

02:05:23.298 --> 02:05:27.638
It's because of that why the redistricting fight started You know,

02:05:27.778 --> 02:05:32.938
it began in Texas What he didn't expect is that Gavin Newsome and California democrats,

02:05:33.198 --> 02:05:38.158
you know, we're going to to respond You know on their side He didn't anticipate

02:05:38.158 --> 02:05:41.938
that Texas democrats in the house would break quorum and inspire the nation

02:05:41.938 --> 02:05:45.158
on this He didn't anticipate that it would then become this,

02:05:45.298 --> 02:05:47.258
you know race to the bottom of states,

02:05:47.438 --> 02:05:51.238
you know, both blue states and and red states you know, looking at redistricting,

02:05:51.518 --> 02:05:54.578
you know, eventually making it what might end up being a wash.

02:05:55.516 --> 02:05:59.376
He didn't anticipate that Kansas would back off.

02:05:59.556 --> 02:06:04.656
He didn't anticipate that Republicans here in Indiana, a majority of Republicans

02:06:04.656 --> 02:06:08.756
in the state Senate caucus, would vote with Democrats to beat this down after

02:06:08.756 --> 02:06:11.556
a four and a half month saga around this.

02:06:12.016 --> 02:06:15.996
He is realizing that he doesn't have the juice that he used to have.

02:06:16.196 --> 02:06:22.716
He is realizing in real time, everybody becomes a lame duck at some point. Right.

02:06:23.016 --> 02:06:27.676
And so that's why he is digging in. You know, that's why he is trying to distract,

02:06:28.036 --> 02:06:31.236
you know, from his losses. He's trying to distract from Epstein files.

02:06:31.396 --> 02:06:36.056
And he's, you know, you know, waving, you know, a little shiny thing over here with Venezuela.

02:06:36.256 --> 02:06:40.596
OK, let me bomb Nigeria on Christmas. OK, let me go into Syria and this and

02:06:40.596 --> 02:06:45.116
that. You know, that's why he is putting, you know, you know.

02:06:45.796 --> 02:06:48.936
Election deniers, you know, in important posts as it comes to that.

02:06:49.116 --> 02:06:52.236
That's why he's getting, you know, National Guard and communities across the

02:06:52.236 --> 02:06:54.756
country so he can, you know, normalize that.

02:06:55.076 --> 02:06:57.956
Because when the idea people often talk about, you know, oh,

02:06:58.296 --> 02:07:01.696
the Republicans are moving right now, you know, like we're not going to have elections.

02:07:01.996 --> 02:07:03.956
The way I think about it is.

02:07:04.455 --> 02:07:06.875
It's less likely that we're not going to have elections, but,

02:07:07.015 --> 02:07:09.495
you know, are they free and fair, right?

02:07:09.775 --> 02:07:13.695
You know, are people going, you know, to turn out, you know,

02:07:13.815 --> 02:07:17.675
in Democratic precincts, you know, if they're afraid about ICE, right?

02:07:17.855 --> 02:07:22.135
Or are they going to feel intimidated because there's a military presence, right?

02:07:22.315 --> 02:07:26.595
These are the sorts of things, you know, from a soft power perspective and a

02:07:26.595 --> 02:07:30.335
hard power perspective that they still try and get their way, right?

02:07:30.335 --> 02:07:35.275
And so, you know, it is up to us as a people to stay vigilant,

02:07:35.635 --> 02:07:40.495
you know, to continue doing the work, you know, to continue to stand up,

02:07:40.615 --> 02:07:45.455
to bring others into the fold, you know, to not be afraid, because the power

02:07:45.455 --> 02:07:47.955
of the people is always stronger than the people in power.

02:07:48.115 --> 02:07:51.155
And we have to remember that, you know, and keep pushing.

02:07:51.955 --> 02:07:56.675
All right. So my final question for you is finish this sentence.

02:07:56.675 --> 02:08:01.335
But I have hope because I believe in people.

02:08:02.315 --> 02:08:06.875
Okay. Well, that's a good way to do it. If you're going to be in public service,

02:08:06.875 --> 02:08:08.395
you need to believe in the folks.

02:08:09.215 --> 02:08:13.535
And, you know, I really appreciate the fact that,

02:08:14.169 --> 02:08:17.509
that you are putting yourself out there.

02:08:17.709 --> 02:08:25.769
I think one of the cool things about this process is that when it is done right,

02:08:25.809 --> 02:08:32.849
it is an incredible aim to be in public service.

02:08:32.849 --> 02:08:37.609
And it's an incredible commitment to take care of people.

02:08:37.949 --> 02:08:43.709
And, you know, listening to you talk, I know that your heart is in the right place.

02:08:43.869 --> 02:08:47.849
And I, and I, and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to share that with me.

02:08:48.309 --> 02:08:52.509
No, thank you. If people want to get involved with your campaign or want to

02:08:52.509 --> 02:08:54.009
reach out to you, how can they do that?

02:08:54.549 --> 02:08:58.609
I'm, I'm accessible. Yeah. I put my cell phone number, my email out there all

02:08:58.609 --> 02:09:00.729
over the community when I'm dropping cards and canvassing.

02:09:00.969 --> 02:09:04.889
So, uh, you know, anybody has any, you know, thoughts to share questions,

02:09:05.189 --> 02:09:06.909
you know, to ask, want to get, get involved.

02:09:07.309 --> 02:09:09.809
You know, So my website is georgehornedo.com.

02:09:10.369 --> 02:09:13.489
There's a volunteer button. We're phone banking every single day.

02:09:13.649 --> 02:09:16.389
We're canvassing every day for those that are local here in Indianapolis.

02:09:16.669 --> 02:09:21.749
Obviously, resources are helpful and keep our scrappy grassroots campaign going

02:09:21.749 --> 02:09:23.189
and try and reach more voters.

02:09:23.389 --> 02:09:29.129
But also my email is just george at georgehornedo.com. So drop me a line and let's chat.

02:09:29.529 --> 02:09:34.049
So thank you to everybody for listening. And thank you, Eric,

02:09:34.229 --> 02:09:39.249
for the opportunity and the platform. and deeply appreciative of the work that

02:09:39.249 --> 02:09:41.809
you do and had a good time with us.

02:09:42.169 --> 02:09:46.909
Well, I'm glad that you had a good time. And one of the rules that I have is

02:09:46.909 --> 02:09:51.809
that once you've been a guest, you have an open invitation to come back.

02:09:51.989 --> 02:09:56.689
So it'd be cool if you're a member of Congress and you come back to the show.

02:09:56.849 --> 02:10:02.049
But even if you're not, I know that you're going to be active regardless of the results.

02:10:02.309 --> 02:10:08.089
So again, I greatly appreciate you taking the time and doing this. Absolutely. Thank you.

02:10:22.605 --> 02:10:30.105
All right, and we are back. So I want to thank Naomi Raquel Enright, Dr.

02:10:30.385 --> 02:10:36.145
Eboni Preston Goddard, and George Hornedo for coming on the program.

02:10:36.565 --> 02:10:45.165
I was I've been working to try to get Sister Enright on for a while,

02:10:45.165 --> 02:10:47.245
and we finally were able to make that happen.

02:10:48.045 --> 02:10:54.405
And I'm glad that she was the first person that I got to interview in this new year.

02:10:55.025 --> 02:10:59.585
And I think her book, even though it was written several years ago.

02:11:01.170 --> 02:11:05.790
Very, very relevant to where we are today because there's definitely a need

02:11:05.790 --> 02:11:13.370
to have strength in our soul as events have transpired over this last week.

02:11:13.530 --> 02:11:22.310
Dr. Goddard is doing incredible work in making sure that our history is interwoven.

02:11:23.030 --> 02:11:28.070
Well, it's been interwoven, but we just needed somebody to tell the story.

02:11:28.930 --> 02:11:35.070
And Dr. Goddard is doing the work to make sure that our stories are told and

02:11:35.070 --> 02:11:42.990
that people understand that the contributions of African Americans have been

02:11:42.990 --> 02:11:44.410
and continue to be vital.

02:11:44.810 --> 02:11:50.910
And also just to deal with our national parks,

02:11:50.910 --> 02:11:57.190
because, you know, the initial reason why the park service was created and that

02:11:57.190 --> 02:12:03.490
there was an effort is because we wanted to reflect the beauty of this nation.

02:12:03.970 --> 02:12:10.170
And where sometimes the people and the leadership don't reflect it, nature is nature.

02:12:10.890 --> 02:12:18.630
And we don't think that every piece of land needs to be a tool of capitalism,

02:12:18.850 --> 02:12:24.250
whether it's housing developments or oil rigs or whatever.

02:12:24.730 --> 02:12:32.090
Some places just need to be preserved for the natural beauty that it is. And so I'm glad that Dr.

02:12:32.230 --> 02:12:33.970
Goddard is involved in that work.

02:12:35.226 --> 02:12:40.246
And especially, again, to show that African-Americans care about this nation

02:12:40.246 --> 02:12:44.426
more than just their own self-interest.

02:12:44.926 --> 02:12:48.166
Right. And then there's George Hornedo,

02:12:48.926 --> 02:12:54.646
the young man after my own heart, who is running for the United States Congress

02:12:54.646 --> 02:13:00.386
in the, I believe, the 7th District in Indiana.

02:13:00.386 --> 02:13:05.786
I might be wrong on that one, but he's running basically out of Indianapolis.

02:13:07.084 --> 02:13:13.164
And, you know, I just can't help but see a lot of myself in his candidacy,

02:13:13.564 --> 02:13:20.664
somebody that is committed to working for the people and offering themselves

02:13:20.664 --> 02:13:27.824
up and challenging a formidable incumbent to do so.

02:13:28.044 --> 02:13:36.504
But, you know, it's just we're at this point now where we've got to challenge things.

02:13:36.504 --> 02:13:42.764
And one of the things I didn't get a chance to ask him was about this trend,

02:13:42.964 --> 02:13:47.504
but he answered it in the interview, even without me asking,

02:13:47.744 --> 02:13:52.544
about why it's important to challenge things.

02:13:53.084 --> 02:14:01.104
I think, you know, the status quo always needs to be shaken up at some point.

02:14:02.404 --> 02:14:10.204
And, you know, I'm one of those people that, you know, if somebody,

02:14:10.684 --> 02:14:13.964
doesn't matter if they're black, they're white, they're Democrat,

02:14:14.164 --> 02:14:19.384
Republican, if they're not responding to the people, if they're just place sitters,

02:14:19.644 --> 02:14:25.944
then we, at the very least, need to get them off of the spot that they're just sitting on, right?

02:14:25.944 --> 02:14:33.084
But if we can't defeat them, at least make a move and understand that,

02:14:33.324 --> 02:14:35.904
you know, there's an accountability piece there.

02:14:36.164 --> 02:14:42.584
It's one thing to have the title. It's another thing to utilize that power for

02:14:42.584 --> 02:14:45.304
the maximum amount of good. Right.

02:14:45.904 --> 02:14:52.204
And so I commend George for doing that. And if you are so inclined to help him, please do.

02:14:53.545 --> 02:14:58.905
So, I guess the best way to get into what I want to talk about,

02:14:59.005 --> 02:15:02.825
because there were so many things, you know, the situation in Venezuela,

02:15:02.825 --> 02:15:07.305
which even Jack Ryan, the TV show, saw coming.

02:15:07.825 --> 02:15:12.725
You know, I've said what I needed to say about certain things.

02:15:12.725 --> 02:15:19.965
You know, I think, you know, this country has a history of using military force

02:15:19.965 --> 02:15:26.705
to enact police actions. I don't endorse that kind of stuff.

02:15:26.905 --> 02:15:32.225
I don't endorse the United States trying to be imperial.

02:15:32.665 --> 02:15:37.265
I think we have enough issues and really enough people.

02:15:37.665 --> 02:15:41.705
You're talking about a country of 330 million plus.

02:15:41.705 --> 02:15:46.685
Plus, I think it's a daunting enough task to make sure that each one of them

02:15:46.685 --> 02:15:53.665
have opportunities, let alone trying to meddle in other people's politics.

02:15:53.925 --> 02:16:01.025
And history has shown that meddling in other people's politics doesn't always

02:16:01.025 --> 02:16:06.185
garner the outcomes in the long term that we may have desired.

02:16:06.645 --> 02:16:11.585
There might be some short-term gains, but in the long term, that can flip.

02:16:11.705 --> 02:16:16.045
You look at the situation in Iran for a historical example.

02:16:16.365 --> 02:16:21.465
You look at the Monroe Doctrine and the Roosevelt Corollary, right?

02:16:22.085 --> 02:16:30.765
And how that has not had the desired effects that we have wanted or we may have

02:16:30.765 --> 02:16:35.405
desired whether the intentions were pure or not in this hemisphere.

02:16:35.405 --> 02:16:44.305
And the police actions on Manuel Noriega and Nicolas Maduro are examples of how,

02:16:45.687 --> 02:16:51.667
meddling has not benefited us or the citizens of their respective countries.

02:16:52.327 --> 02:16:56.067
So, you know, there's that.

02:16:58.707 --> 02:17:03.687
But at 9.30 a.m. on January 7th,

02:17:04.367 --> 02:17:08.027
2026, a 37-year-old

02:17:08.027 --> 02:17:18.547
woman who was a mother and had just dropped her child off from school and saw

02:17:18.547 --> 02:17:24.587
something going on in her community that she and other people in that city of

02:17:24.587 --> 02:17:27.807
Minneapolis were concerned about, which is the invasion,

02:17:28.747 --> 02:17:30.407
of U.S.

02:17:30.587 --> 02:17:36.647
Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers, agents in their town.

02:17:37.207 --> 02:17:44.287
President has bragged that it's the largest show of force from the agency in history.

02:17:44.687 --> 02:17:55.307
But again, at 930 that morning, Renee Nicole Good became a victim of unjustified police violence.

02:17:55.887 --> 02:18:04.527
Now, a court of law may disagree with my assessment, but from what I saw,

02:18:05.027 --> 02:18:08.387
there's no way that you can say.

02:18:08.387 --> 02:18:14.467
And with my background in law enforcement, there's no way that you can say that

02:18:14.467 --> 02:18:18.907
that was a justified homicide, that that was a justified shooting.

02:18:19.407 --> 02:18:23.507
And it's something that a lot of us were dreading to happen.

02:18:25.053 --> 02:18:31.733
It's been a little more than five years and literally six blocks away from where

02:18:31.733 --> 02:18:34.113
George Floyd was killed by law enforcement.

02:18:34.653 --> 02:18:41.633
It's in the same city where Philando Castile was killed by law enforcement.

02:18:41.933 --> 02:18:46.513
And I apologize to the family. I can't remember the young lady's name who was

02:18:46.513 --> 02:18:52.173
about to get married, who was killed in her backyard after calling the police

02:18:52.173 --> 02:18:54.333
to be killed by the police.

02:18:55.313 --> 02:19:00.113
This is, you know, the common phrase is like, well, this is not what America

02:19:00.113 --> 02:19:02.553
is. Unfortunately, this is what America is.

02:19:03.153 --> 02:19:06.933
The challenge is, at what point do we do better?

02:19:06.933 --> 02:19:12.293
You know, the vice president of the United States, and we had already heard

02:19:12.293 --> 02:19:21.813
the president or read his tweet, and Chrissy Noem, the secretary over Homeland Security,

02:19:22.933 --> 02:19:26.133
tried to defend this officer and said.

02:19:28.672 --> 02:19:36.952
And his name is getting out there. They've been trying to shield him ever since the incident occurred.

02:19:37.692 --> 02:19:43.292
Sources are saying the man's name is Jonathan Ross. It'll probably be the last time I say it.

02:19:43.892 --> 02:19:47.632
But when the vice president got up, J.D.

02:19:47.752 --> 02:19:53.172
Vance, and said that and tried to berate the press and basically with his full

02:19:53.172 --> 02:19:56.912
chest come out and support murder.

02:19:57.772 --> 02:20:03.032
See, it's one thing to do like a homing to say, well, you know,

02:20:03.152 --> 02:20:06.232
look, we need to investigate this. We need to get the facts.

02:20:06.672 --> 02:20:08.412
It's a terrible thing that happened.

02:20:09.132 --> 02:20:14.252
It's never a good thing when an officer has to use their weapon and we'll,

02:20:14.372 --> 02:20:17.592
you know, we're going to do a thorough investigation and find out the truth.

02:20:17.732 --> 02:20:19.152
But that's not what J.D. Vance said.

02:20:19.932 --> 02:20:24.412
J.D. Vance basically said she deserved to die.

02:20:25.332 --> 02:20:29.672
And I will say with my full chest, that's bullshit.

02:20:32.624 --> 02:20:37.304
Deserves to die, and especially for their political viewpoints,

02:20:37.424 --> 02:20:44.304
and especially if their political viewpoints are opposite mine or anybody else's, right?

02:20:44.924 --> 02:20:48.284
I want J.D. Vance to say that to that six-year-old kid,

02:20:49.564 --> 02:20:54.424
Renee's child, because that child is going to grow up,

02:20:54.524 --> 02:21:02.044
and that child is going to be exposed in this day and age of technology to how

02:21:02.044 --> 02:21:04.984
his mom died and how people reacted to it.

02:21:05.304 --> 02:21:09.724
And that child is going to see that the vice president of the country that he,

02:21:10.384 --> 02:21:17.684
was raised in at the moment of that tragedy basically said that his mom deserved to die.

02:21:17.684 --> 02:21:26.604
And I hope that fuels that young man to do good in his community and to stand up to people like J.D.

02:21:26.724 --> 02:21:30.184
Vance and forever oppose him.

02:21:31.779 --> 02:21:38.659
People talk about radicalization and what motivates people to take certain positions.

02:21:39.679 --> 02:21:41.779
Violence radicalizes people.

02:21:43.479 --> 02:21:48.059
Justification of violence radicalizes people.

02:21:48.639 --> 02:21:54.579
One of the reasons why Dr. King took the strategy of a Gandhi and shaped it

02:21:54.579 --> 02:21:59.299
in a way that African Americans, especially those of the Christian faith,

02:21:59.419 --> 02:22:07.399
could embrace because he understood that violence against violence was not the answer.

02:22:08.039 --> 02:22:14.419
When you listen to people like Malcolm X and Huey Newton, they weren't advocating the violence.

02:22:14.599 --> 02:22:19.839
All they were doing was saying we have a right to defend ourselves against the violence.

02:22:19.839 --> 02:22:26.739
But to actively campaign against a violent society where people like Bull Connor

02:22:26.739 --> 02:22:30.739
and others of his ilk were going after people just so they could vote,

02:22:30.899 --> 02:22:34.439
just so they could sit wherever they wanted on a bus,

02:22:34.739 --> 02:22:41.919
just so they would have the decency to be able to go to the shop through the

02:22:41.919 --> 02:22:44.579
front door instead of the back or in the basement,

02:22:44.579 --> 02:22:52.159
where they could sit at a lunch counter to eat without being harassed or ignored.

02:22:52.979 --> 02:22:57.519
To be able to live their lives with the decency and dignity that every human

02:22:57.519 --> 02:23:02.519
being and especially every American citizen should be afforded,

02:23:03.359 --> 02:23:08.579
a movement based on nonviolence, was the strategy.

02:23:09.479 --> 02:23:18.499
And I can say that it was successful to the point where opportunities for people like me and others to.

02:23:20.409 --> 02:23:28.249
And for us to be involved in the political process. Much to the dismay and the

02:23:28.249 --> 02:23:30.229
chagrin of people like J.D.

02:23:30.349 --> 02:23:36.809
Vance, like Steve Bannon, like the Miller family, and others of that ilk.

02:23:36.929 --> 02:23:39.449
These people are just descendants of Bull Connor.

02:23:41.449 --> 02:23:47.449
Genetically, maybe, but definitely philosophically. That it just bothers them

02:23:47.449 --> 02:23:49.629
that somebody that doesn't look like them,

02:23:50.449 --> 02:23:54.829
that's not a part of their culture could have the same opportunities,

02:23:54.829 --> 02:24:01.109
could have the same drive and the same level of success that they think that

02:24:01.109 --> 02:24:04.869
they're entitled to, that they think that they inherit it,

02:24:06.429 --> 02:24:11.549
And Renee Goode was the antithesis of that.

02:24:12.369 --> 02:24:20.169
This was a young woman, if it was true that she had compassion for those people

02:24:20.169 --> 02:24:28.509
who are immigrating into our nation and was opposed to her city becoming a police state.

02:24:28.949 --> 02:24:32.949
In those people's minds, her life was expendable.

02:24:33.589 --> 02:24:39.329
Well, Mr. Vice President, I'm here to tell you that her life was not expendable.

02:24:39.709 --> 02:24:45.169
She did not deserve to die. She did not deserve to die in that brutal of a fashion.

02:24:46.809 --> 02:24:53.749
And I am glad that people of all races, of all nationalities,

02:24:53.849 --> 02:24:58.909
ethnic groups, the citizens of Minneapolis are saying enough is enough.

02:24:59.709 --> 02:25:07.449
And yeah, the mayor let his heart out and basically told you where you could

02:25:07.449 --> 02:25:12.549
go and how you could get there and said that your presence is not welcome in this city.

02:25:12.549 --> 02:25:18.149
And he was already feeling some kind of way because of how are you trying to

02:25:18.149 --> 02:25:25.109
disparage a member of Congress from his city, as well as the community she comes from,

02:25:25.309 --> 02:25:27.849
the Somali community in Minneapolis.

02:25:28.909 --> 02:25:31.269
And again, it's all a place of...

02:25:33.049 --> 02:25:39.069
Racism, systemic and just raw racism.

02:25:39.729 --> 02:25:47.469
And, you know, in one sense, I should be incensed and just totally out of character.

02:25:47.689 --> 02:25:52.489
But, you know, one thing is that when you step on someone's toe,

02:25:52.669 --> 02:25:53.709
they're going to say, ouch.

02:25:54.609 --> 02:26:02.189
And that old colloquialism means that those who are guilty will confess.

02:26:02.889 --> 02:26:08.549
And so it is a good moment in one sense that people like J.D.

02:26:08.689 --> 02:26:13.349
Vance and Donald Trump and Kristi Noem and Steve Bannon and the Miller family

02:26:13.349 --> 02:26:15.049
are exposing themselves,

02:26:15.889 --> 02:26:25.689
even more to a broader public so that we know who the true enemy is and that

02:26:25.689 --> 02:26:31.429
we do everything to make sure that they do not have political power ever again.

02:26:31.969 --> 02:26:38.689
Just talking to Mr. Hornado, you know, I'm reminded that Indiana at one point

02:26:38.689 --> 02:26:40.989
was a stronghold for the Ku Klux Klan.

02:26:41.329 --> 02:26:47.949
They literally controlled every major political office in the state of Indiana.

02:26:48.529 --> 02:26:52.609
But eventually, the corruption was exposed,

02:26:52.889 --> 02:26:56.529
their true nature was exposed, and even

02:26:56.529 --> 02:27:02.949
those people who empathize with that sentiment of racism and discrimination

02:27:02.949 --> 02:27:07.029
realize that they did not want

02:27:07.029 --> 02:27:13.769
to associate with the character or lack thereof of members of the Klan.

02:27:15.089 --> 02:27:23.609
And that basically was the end of their political power as an organization in the United States.

02:27:24.369 --> 02:27:30.609
And just as quickly as they attained it, it was taken away. And so this year.

02:27:32.257 --> 02:27:35.937
3rd, 2026, we can do the same thing.

02:27:36.557 --> 02:27:44.557
We can get rid of this, not forever, and not totally eradicate it because there

02:27:44.557 --> 02:27:51.397
are too many people infected with this disease of racism, but we can take away their political power.

02:27:51.597 --> 02:27:57.577
We can limit their political discourse because they'll always have the right

02:27:57.577 --> 02:28:03.257
as Americans to say whatever stupid shit they want to say, right?

02:28:04.097 --> 02:28:09.177
That's the give and take of the First Amendment. But it doesn't mean that they

02:28:09.177 --> 02:28:12.077
need to be in positions of leadership ever again.

02:28:12.877 --> 02:28:17.557
You can stand on any street corner you want to. You can have your little clubs,

02:28:17.777 --> 02:28:19.117
wherever the case may be.

02:28:19.117 --> 02:28:25.777
But as far as representing us on a local, state, county,

02:28:26.357 --> 02:28:35.257
or national or international stage, we cannot afford for another 250 years to

02:28:35.257 --> 02:28:40.157
have anybody of that ilk in leadership positions again.

02:28:40.897 --> 02:28:47.537
Too many people have died Too many people have suffered Too many people have been uncomfortable.

02:28:48.457 --> 02:28:55.977
Because of that mindset Because of that type of leadership And it is time for

02:28:55.977 --> 02:29:01.497
that to end I cannot stress enough how pissed off I am.

02:29:03.161 --> 02:29:09.361
That kind of rhetoric coming from the national leadership of this nation.

02:29:09.361 --> 02:29:12.341
It was one thing to grow up black in America.

02:29:13.221 --> 02:29:19.321
And my parents, my grandparents had to deal with this sort of stuff.

02:29:20.421 --> 02:29:25.001
And a lot of people thought that once Woodrow Wilson stroked out,

02:29:25.181 --> 02:29:28.841
that that would be the end of that presence in the White House.

02:29:28.841 --> 02:29:40.341
But, you know, some folks were more artful and crafty in how they articulated those viewpoints,

02:29:40.341 --> 02:29:44.181
but it wasn't totally eliminated from leadership.

02:29:44.181 --> 02:29:50.561
But now, this is, as General Travis would say, this is where we draw the line.

02:29:52.301 --> 02:29:59.801
And, you know, we thought in the summer of 2020, people got the message.

02:30:00.481 --> 02:30:09.261
And in the subsequent elections, Donald Trump and his ilk were folded out for the most part.

02:30:10.021 --> 02:30:16.121
But just like a Hydra, you can't just cut off one head. You got to cut them all off.

02:30:17.871 --> 02:30:22.351
And November 3rd, 2026 is our moment.

02:30:23.151 --> 02:30:27.371
You know, it's very easy for people to say, well, we need to take up arms and

02:30:27.371 --> 02:30:28.811
we need to do this and do that.

02:30:28.931 --> 02:30:34.071
No, we need to do what people are doing all over the country now and protesting.

02:30:34.791 --> 02:30:39.091
The No Kings rallies were a solid foundation in that.

02:30:39.091 --> 02:30:46.711
And as the elections that have ensued since then have shown is that we can take

02:30:46.711 --> 02:30:51.591
them out with the most powerful tool we have as citizens of this nation,

02:30:51.771 --> 02:30:53.731
and that's the power of the vote.

02:30:54.531 --> 02:30:59.931
So if you really want to honor the legacy of a George Floyd or a Renee Good

02:30:59.931 --> 02:31:08.731
or a Philando Castile or Sandra Bland, Tamir Rice,

02:31:09.631 --> 02:31:14.751
All of these young men and women who have died at the hands of police violence,

02:31:15.271 --> 02:31:17.631
Fred Hampton, Mark Clark.

02:31:18.751 --> 02:31:19.791
Just all of these people.

02:31:20.371 --> 02:31:30.271
You know, you heard me talk about Viola Liuzzo when I was talking to Dr. Goddard.

02:31:30.951 --> 02:31:36.971
She was just taking people home from the Selma to Montgomery march when she

02:31:36.971 --> 02:31:42.911
got murdered. There was another preacher the day before that had come down for

02:31:42.911 --> 02:31:44.991
the march and was murdered.

02:31:45.651 --> 02:31:49.291
We're not trying to all be Joan of Arc.

02:31:51.251 --> 02:31:57.131
They're trying to be martyrs. And so, unfortunately, when you're dealing with

02:31:57.131 --> 02:31:59.571
evil, those things happen.

02:31:59.871 --> 02:32:05.891
But if you want to defeat this, then you've got to vote them out.

02:32:06.471 --> 02:32:14.751
I don't care what promises they make. I don't care what late night confessions they try to offer.

02:32:15.331 --> 02:32:17.491
Their true nature has been exposed.

02:32:18.371 --> 02:32:26.911
If miraculously gas prices and food prices and everything went down 10 to 20 percent.

02:32:27.891 --> 02:32:31.531
It's not enough because it's more than just that.

02:32:32.191 --> 02:32:37.471
It's one thing to live in a society where we can afford to live in it.

02:32:37.931 --> 02:32:41.711
But it's not just about money. It's about peace of mind.

02:32:42.351 --> 02:32:47.391
And as long as these people have any say-so in our day-to-day lives,

02:32:47.491 --> 02:32:50.351
we'll never have true affordability.

02:32:50.391 --> 02:32:55.911
We'll never be able to truly live abundantly because things can be cheap,

02:32:56.651 --> 02:32:58.771
but things will still be oppressive.

02:32:59.831 --> 02:33:04.871
And I spent 34 years in a state that is a model of that.

02:33:05.551 --> 02:33:10.691
Yeah, it's not expensive to live in Mississippi, but that's.

02:33:12.056 --> 02:33:17.876
Still there. And they might cloak it in whatever kind of smooth Christian national

02:33:17.876 --> 02:33:19.716
rhetoric they'll put out there.

02:33:19.856 --> 02:33:23.956
Oh, well, you know, we're just doing God's will and all that kind of stuff.

02:33:25.536 --> 02:33:31.076
No, it's not God's will to be racist. It's not God's will for us to be violent.

02:33:32.216 --> 02:33:36.816
It's not God's will for us to be greedy. It's time out for that.

02:33:37.516 --> 02:33:44.576
I mean, just think about it, Y'all, a woman whose last name was good was murdered.

02:33:45.576 --> 02:33:52.016
That should be enough. Should have been enough for after Alton Sterling and

02:33:52.016 --> 02:33:56.036
Meg Evers and Dr. King and all the others.

02:33:56.576 --> 02:33:59.456
But it's got to be now.

02:34:00.096 --> 02:34:05.256
We don't have the luxury of being apathetic and not caring about politics anymore.

02:34:06.176 --> 02:34:11.476
You just heard Indianapolis went from one of the most active political cities

02:34:11.476 --> 02:34:14.076
in the state to one of the most apathetic.

02:34:16.180 --> 02:34:20.380
Has just been gradually getting re-energized.

02:34:20.500 --> 02:34:24.320
But now, now, this is our moment.

02:34:24.640 --> 02:34:29.840
And just as bold as J.D. Vance got up there on that podium, we need to be just

02:34:29.840 --> 02:34:31.880
as bold showing up on election day.

02:34:32.480 --> 02:34:36.880
You want to stand 10 toes down with murdered, and we're going to stand 10 toes

02:34:36.880 --> 02:34:42.760
down in removing power from people like you and your supporters.

02:34:43.680 --> 02:34:48.320
I don't care how much money they spend. to try to convince you otherwise.

02:34:49.440 --> 02:34:58.160
What you see on your television, what you are hearing from the witnesses need to be your guide.

02:34:59.240 --> 02:35:00.400
Enough is enough.

02:35:02.100 --> 02:35:07.180
And I will continue to do my part on this podcast to encourage you to do this

02:35:07.180 --> 02:35:12.860
and to continue to bring people to the forefront that are fighting these battles every day.

02:35:13.180 --> 02:35:16.480
I may even get some people from the other side to come on.

02:35:16.940 --> 02:35:22.040
They've been invited. They show up, we'll give them a mic, but they've going

02:35:22.040 --> 02:35:24.420
to have to be accountable. Right?

02:35:26.280 --> 02:35:33.920
And I want you all to hold those people in account as well. It's time. It's time.

02:35:34.760 --> 02:35:40.340
And Lord willing, we'll address this some more next episode,

02:35:40.680 --> 02:35:45.040
but until then, y'all, we just got to keep fighting.

02:35:45.860 --> 02:35:50.840
You just got to keep fighting. And November 3rd should be circled on your calendar.