Pragmatic Optimism Featuring Mikel Bolden, Renee Williams and Joan Garry

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Music.

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Hello and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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And today, three guests on,

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so yes, this is another jam-packed show, but these three young ladies that are

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coming on are optimists, but they're pragmatic optimists, right?

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And, you know, So that can apply to anybody that does the work that is needed

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in this day and age and this time in America.

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But I felt that was an appropriate title for this program because one is an

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executive director for a political party.

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One is an executive director for a nonprofit that helps survivors of crimes.

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And then one is Veteran Warrior, who now is in the mission of helping all nonprofits get better,

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but was one of the most outspoken leaders in activism at one point for a decade, actually.

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And so it's just an honor to have all three of them come on.

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And all of them, you know, talk about hope and talk about what can be done and

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why they're excited to do the work.

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But they're also very realistic about the times that we're in.

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And so pragmatic optimism, optimism seemed like an appropriate title for them.

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It's not necessarily sexy, but it is what it is.

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And I think that's kind of where we are because we can all be hopeful,

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but I think we have to be realistic in knowing that where we are now,

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there are some people that are ready to lead and that are leading.

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And then there's some people that we need to move out the way.

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So my guests are people that we need to elevate and highlight.

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And so I'm glad that they came on, and hopefully you'll enjoy the interviews.

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I'm still encouraging people to subscribe. Go to patreon.com slash a moment

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with Erik Fleming, or you can go to momenterik.com and do the same thing.

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And also, you know, just kind of catch up, learn about the show,

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learn about me, catch up on what's going on with the podcast.

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I have some sad news for my ego. The nominees came out for the Black Podcasting Awards.

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Yours truly was not one of the nominees this year. But nevertheless,

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we're going to keep doing what we're doing.

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And I am going to continue to encourage people to support the Black Podcasting

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Awards because the nominees are pretty cool.

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One of the nominees was a nominee with me last year.

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And so hopefully the second time is the

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charm for that show But in

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all seriousness Go to the Black

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Podcasters Awards website Check out the different shows that have been nominated

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And then listen to them And support them any way you can There are so many genres

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that are out there now It's hard to believe five years ago So it was, you know,

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it was just a thought.

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And so, you know, we'll keep plugging along and hopefully we'll be distinguished

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as an award winner one day.

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But right now, I'm just honored that I have good listeners like you.

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And we're going to continue to do the work and continue to be a voice out here,

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especially in this day and age. Right.

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So anyway, enough about me and enough about all this other stuff.

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Let's go ahead and kick this show off. And as always, we kick it off with A Moment

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of News with Grace G.

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Music.

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Thanks, Erik. A shooter killed two people and wounded one at a Dallas Immigration

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and Customs Enforcement office before taking his own life.

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The threat of a government shutdown increased after the Senate rejected a short-term

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spending bill passed by the House.

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Disney brought back Jimmy Kimmel Live! to the air six days after suspending

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the show due to comments its host made about the assassination of Charlie Kirk.

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Family and friends of the late conservative activist Charlie Kirk praised his

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life and legacy at a memorial service.

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Former NFL player Colin Kaepernick has pledged to fund a second independent

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autopsy for Demartravion Reed, a Delta State University student whose death was ruled a suicide.

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Ryan Ruth was found guilty of the attempted assassination of President Trump

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after pointing a rifle at him while he was golfing.

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A federal judge dismissed President

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Trump's $15 billion defamation lawsuit against The New York Times.

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A top prosecutor investigating New York Attorney General Letitia James resigned

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after President Trump publicly called for his removal.

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The U.S. Senate confirmed Donald Trump's former national security advisor,

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Michael Waltz, as the U.S.

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Ambassador for the U.N. The Trump administration announced

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a new proposal that would require companies to pay $100,000 per year for H-1B

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visas President Trump announced that the Republican Party plans to hold a convention

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for the 2026 midterm elections The city of Boston has paid a $150,000 settlement to two black men,

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Alan Swanson and Willie Bennett, who were wrongly accused of the 1989 murder of a pregnant woman.

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Egyptian-British activist Alaa

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Abdel Fattah was released a day after being pardoned by Egypt's president.

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And Priscilla Williams-Till, a cousin of Emmett Till, is running for the U.S. Senate in Mississippi.

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I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.

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And now it's time for my guest, Mikel Bolden, hailing from Columbia,

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Mississippi, which is in Marion County, Mississippi, home of Walter Payton. But I digress.

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Mikel Bolden, daughter of the Lois Taylor and Michael Taylor,

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was raised by her mother and her bonus father, Donald Mitchell.

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Mikhail is the proud graduate of Tougaloo College, where she earned a bachelor's

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degree in political science.

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She also holds a master's in criminology and justice services from Jackson State University.

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Mikhail is the mother of two children, Penelope Bolden and Timothy Bolden Jr.,

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and the youngest of six siblings.

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She is a proud member of the Jackson, Mississippi Alumni Chapter of Delta Sigma

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Theta Sorority Incorporated and the Order of Eastern Star Armentine Chapter No. 7.

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A two-time self-published author, Mikel has written, live freely,

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laugh often, love always, but live truthfully and the roots of her.

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She is also the founder of the Humble Change, Inc., an organization dedicated

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to empowering Mississippi's youth with the resources, mentorship,

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and opportunities they need to thrive as students and future entrepreneurs.

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Throughout her career, Mikel has been a relentless advocate for civic engagement,

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voting rights, and voter protection.

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She has worked to establish initiatives that safeguard fair and accessible elections

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across Mississippi. Her passion for service extends beyond advocacy.

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She is known for her commitment to helping anyone she can, strengthening families,

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and building a more connected, empowered community.

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In her role as Executive Director of the Mississippi Democratic Party,

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Mikel is committed to moving Mississippi forward by prioritizing equity,

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education, and civic participation.

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Her leadership is rooted in her belief that investing in people,

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especially children and marginalized communities, creates a stronger,

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more vibrant Mississippi.

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Her personal motto is life is a series of beginnings, not endings.

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She firmly believes that every challenge is an opportunity to fight harder,

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dream bigger and keep moving forward.

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When she is not working, Mikel enjoys writing, reading, and strategizing while

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listening to music, always looking for the next way to inspire and uplift those around her.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Mikel Bolden.

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Music.

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All right, Mikel Bolden. How you doing, ma'am? You doing good?

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I'm doing good. How about you?

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I'm doing fine. It's always good to talk to somebody from Mississippi.

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Absolutely. Yeah. I got a lot of good memories in Mississippi.

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And even more so because you are the executive director of the Democratic Party in Mississippi.

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Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I spent a lot of time at the old address,

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I guess, because y'all not on Congress Street anymore.

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No, not on Congress Street anymore.

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We were on fortification, but right now we're about to relocate to somewhere downtown.

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We're in the midst of two different locations right now, I said. Okay.

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Yeah. Yeah. I spent a lot of times at the house over there on Congress.

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All right. So let's go ahead and get this started. How I normally do this is

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that I throw out a quote as far as for an initial icebreaker.

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So your quote is, in order for us to make a move and turn Mississippi blue,

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it's going to take everybody and we cannot leave any corner of Mississippi untouched.

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Talk to me about that. Yeah, so essentially,

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one thing about Mississippi, you have people who are misinformed,

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who may not even have the general information when it comes down to elections.

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Like right now, we have special elections.

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You have young leaders who are untouched when it comes to politics.

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You have community members who have lost trust when it comes to elected officials

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and just the overall process when it comes to voting.

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So making sure that you are meeting people where they are and having those real

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life conversations and not like over talking them saying, hey,

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well, you need to get out of voting, you know, not giving them context of what they're voting on.

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Like most people don't know who controls what

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so right now Just had a

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talk with two different classes yesterday And I

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spoke to them about the special election and how hey if you care about your

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health care benefits if you care about jobs and you care about you know xyz

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you have a chance to Divorce your opinion when it comes to this election because

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it's a senate and house races that are happening And they are in control of

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these things. So really breaking down the.

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That information of who controls what, breaking down information of what office

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actually is in control of,

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you know, if it's something that's happening in their school,

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or if it's something, you know, that's happening around the community,

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telling them where to go to get these resources.

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So making sure that people understand how to navigate their issues and say,

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well, you know, I reached out to someone and they didn't contact,

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well, you didn't reach out to the correct person, let me steer you in the right direction.

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So that's really what I mean when, you know, not leaving any corner untouched.

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We know we do have disenfranchised crimes that happen and where people have

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lost their rights to vote, but there are also some crimes that,

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you know, well, I'll say charges that people have that they believe that they're

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unable to register to vote when that's not the case.

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They're just misinformed on how that process works and what it should look like.

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So, you know, just really making sure everyone is knowledgeable about things

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and, you know, asking those questions, having the real life conversation with

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community and college students. So.

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Yeah. You brought up the disenfranchisement. One of my highlights is that I

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was able to get three human beings their right to vote back when I was in the legislature.

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And I know Zakiya Summers, you know, and excuse me, and I'm not just saying that because,

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she's a former co-worker of mine but i know

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that's been an issue for her and i

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and i really hope that mississippi eventually gets to

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a point where we don't have to do that to for individuals yeah you know that

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you know and and and we could we could get into a whole whole show about the

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whole process of that and people have yeah i'm saying just that alone yeah yeah

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then the other thing before I get to the other icebreaker.

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I know there's the Senate special election. That's to replace John Horn, who.

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Got elected mayor of Jackson. Where's the house election?

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So it's a new district from the redistricting case.

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You have House District 22, and that area, it covers Chickasaw,

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Monroe, and Clay County.

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And then you have some more special elections that's happening in DeSoto County.

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So for John Horne's seat, along with Senator Jordan, which is in District 24,

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and then you also have House District 26, Orlando Payton's seat.

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You know, those were due to vacancies.

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So people are like, well, what are these special elections? What do they mean?

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Well, you have three that are due to vacancies, but you have another slew,

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there's like 14 races that are due to redistricting cases where they have expanded

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some of these districts and where they also have like included new districts.

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So during that time, you know, you're letting people know like,

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hey, please get out and vote.

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It is very important because these new districts are drawn to expand the Black

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votership within each county.

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So to make sure that we are aware, we're making sure people are knowledgeable

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of like, hey, well, you're in this county.

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Some people are in the same county voting in two separate districts,

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like Senate District 2, Senate District 11, Senate District 19.

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They're all in the Soto County area, but they're all in different parts.

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You have Senate District 45. That's a new district that's enforced in Lamar County.

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So just making sure people are knowledgeable of what's going on right now.

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I've been talking about this since, you know, they actually just made the decision

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on these races like late May, around May, May-ish.

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And from that time on, it's like, hey guys, you know, these special elections

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going on, Make sure you're aware we have qualifying time, which was in going into June.

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So, you know, just making sure people are aware of what's going on right now,

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because it does affect, you know, their community.

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All right. All right. So now the second icebreaker is called 20 questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

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13. All right. Do you think there is such a thing as unbiased news or media and why?

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Unbiased news and media.

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I'm going to say no. I'm going to go on the limb and say no,

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primarily because, you know, news reporters, they, they do.

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And it's nothing, you know, not to slight anyone that does their job,

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but when it comes down to the unbiased portion of it, sometimes people are reading

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this information, they're confused about what's going on. It's not really an unbiased opinion.

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It's more so a strong leading opinion that leads into giving you more information a little bit later on.

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So it's never really unbiased. It's more so, well, hey, this is what we would

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like to cover, but we also want to throw in this information to make sure you

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know about it without giving more context.

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So I don't think news is really unbiased when it comes down to it because people

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still leave kind of confused on, you know, what's really going on.

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You know, if you leave people in question, it's not an unbiased opinion because,

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you know, if you have unbiased opinion, it's very clear cut in,

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you know, of what it is. Yeah.

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All right. So, Ms. Bolden, why did you get into politics?

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Okay. Well, I've always kind of been into politics.

00:19:15.683 --> 00:19:19.963
I've been kind of behind the scenes, started out my career doing paralegal work,

00:19:19.963 --> 00:19:25.823
and I started having these conversations with my own family where they were

00:19:25.823 --> 00:19:29.563
kind of like untapped into what was really going on.

00:19:29.803 --> 00:19:34.163
And because like, you know, maybe I'm just a person that likes research or,

00:19:34.343 --> 00:19:37.123
you know, things like that, that is my major for one.

00:19:37.123 --> 00:19:43.423
So after I started having those conversations back in 2023, before the gubernatorial

00:19:43.423 --> 00:19:47.443
race, I started working with the Mississippi Democratic Party.

00:19:47.703 --> 00:19:53.343
And so from there, you start learning that you would believe that people are

00:19:53.343 --> 00:19:58.583
aware of situations and policies, as well as how to properly advocate,

00:19:59.183 --> 00:20:00.483
just general information.

00:20:00.483 --> 00:20:03.583
But I came to learn very quickly that that wasn't true.

00:20:04.209 --> 00:20:07.689
While being at the Mississippi Democratic Party, I started doing field organizing

00:20:07.689 --> 00:20:12.269
works where I was going around doing regional meetings, just making people aware

00:20:12.269 --> 00:20:13.509
of who the candidates were.

00:20:13.909 --> 00:20:19.729
From there, I left the party and built the election protection program for Mississippi

00:20:19.729 --> 00:20:22.189
Votes, which is a nonpartisan organization here.

00:20:22.369 --> 00:20:28.329
And while doing that work, I started realizing how sometimes you step away from

00:20:28.329 --> 00:20:30.529
something and you know it's something you're supposed to be doing.

00:20:30.749 --> 00:20:36.589
But you're ignoring it. And that's really kind of like the light bulb that has kind of kept me here.

00:20:36.789 --> 00:20:41.929
So while doing the election protection program before DNC happened last year,

00:20:42.049 --> 00:20:46.849
2024, I was asked to come in and be the executive director as the old executive

00:20:46.849 --> 00:20:47.929
director was stepping out.

00:20:47.929 --> 00:20:52.649
And I took some time to think about it, but it's like, no matter how many times

00:20:52.649 --> 00:20:58.289
I tried to like steer myself away from it, because politics can be very strained with sometimes.

00:20:58.309 --> 00:21:03.169
And it's a lot, especially in Mississippi, where it's so much voter suppression,

00:21:03.369 --> 00:21:08.529
where democracy is not fair, fairness and equality seems to not exist sometimes.

00:21:08.529 --> 00:21:17.069
But I knew that I have the ability to speak to people and have them to understand

00:21:17.069 --> 00:21:20.329
certain things, guide them in the correct direction.

00:21:20.329 --> 00:21:25.629
So that's really what kept me here, along with, like, I just love strategizing

00:21:25.629 --> 00:21:29.009
for one, and I like numbers, and I like defeating the odds.

00:21:29.129 --> 00:21:33.609
And I feel like at some point in time, don't know when, but I'm speaking on

00:21:33.609 --> 00:21:36.029
it, it will happen for Mississippi to, you know,

00:21:36.189 --> 00:21:40.009
change the narrative of what voting actually looks like, as well as people's

00:21:40.009 --> 00:21:44.889
knowledge of the voting process and having more integrity in the system. Okay.

00:21:45.469 --> 00:21:52.049
So earlier this year, Congressman Thompson said the political climate is the worst that he has seen.

00:21:52.289 --> 00:21:54.389
Do you agree with that sentiment?

00:21:55.180 --> 00:21:59.400
Yeah, I do. One thing about it, like I understand, you know,

00:21:59.520 --> 00:22:02.420
people have their take on Republican Democrats,

00:22:02.780 --> 00:22:11.900
but at the same token, when you see your respected elected officials being in

00:22:11.900 --> 00:22:15.100
session, like when it comes to legislative, they're in session and they're being

00:22:15.100 --> 00:22:16.860
disrespected by their counterparts.

00:22:16.860 --> 00:22:21.420
It's like, well, you know, it kind of brings a little fright to the situation.

00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:22.980
Like, do we have control?

00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:28.220
You know, where is the justice when it comes down to if you're speaking to someone

00:22:28.220 --> 00:22:31.220
who's working and doing the same exact work for you, maybe on a,

00:22:31.500 --> 00:22:34.560
you know, across the aisle, but you're not giving them any respect.

00:22:34.560 --> 00:22:38.920
You know, we also saw, you know, in Texas where they locked the representative

00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:40.600
in, you know, in the chambers.

00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:44.520
And then just speaking on, you know, Representative Summers was disrespected

00:22:44.520 --> 00:22:46.540
by the Speaker of the House, you know, recently.

00:22:46.840 --> 00:22:50.080
There's just things like that. I've never seen that before.

00:22:50.360 --> 00:22:54.280
Don't get me wrong, even being in the background of things and then stepping

00:22:54.280 --> 00:22:58.720
up and now being a part of, kind of a part of a bigger cause now.

00:22:58.900 --> 00:23:04.800
It's like, in what way? I've never seen really any of this before.

00:23:05.080 --> 00:23:09.200
And yes, we know it was bad, but it's like it's getting worse day by day.

00:23:09.380 --> 00:23:13.880
And it's like people are having so much confidence in doing the wrong things.

00:23:14.360 --> 00:23:18.100
And it kind of brings like a little scare when it comes to community because

00:23:18.100 --> 00:23:20.360
people are asking like what does this mean for us?

00:23:20.500 --> 00:23:24.440
If they're doing this to those who are respected elected officials,

00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:27.360
what would they do to us? And we're just community members, right?

00:23:28.695 --> 00:23:32.935
That's I really do feel that wholeheartedly. And it's like we have to change

00:23:32.935 --> 00:23:36.555
and we have to give people more confidence and more safety net when it comes

00:23:36.555 --> 00:23:38.495
down to politics in general.

00:23:39.215 --> 00:23:45.655
So you stated when you first started at the party that the party needed to unify

00:23:45.655 --> 00:23:52.655
his message and build a grassroots infrastructure from people ages 18 to 35. How has that been going?

00:23:53.715 --> 00:23:59.955
So it's a work in progress when I say work in progress Right now just speaking

00:23:59.955 --> 00:24:01.835
to the young men and women.

00:24:02.095 --> 00:24:06.195
They're asking Well, what why is it important for me to vote?

00:24:06.395 --> 00:24:10.175
It's not going to matter, you know, you know The whole my vote doesn't matter

00:24:10.175 --> 00:24:14.275
and then I break it down to them like hey, well, what's important to you right now?

00:24:14.455 --> 00:24:17.315
What policy and they'll look at you strange like

00:24:17.315 --> 00:24:20.875
what is policy policy is something that's around us day-to-day When

00:24:20.875 --> 00:24:26.275
it comes to taxes when it comes to you getting funding for school When it comes

00:24:26.275 --> 00:24:30.315
to the clothes that you wear sometimes the taxes on that right tariffs when

00:24:30.315 --> 00:24:34.935
it comes to You know job minimum wage like I break it all the way down in an

00:24:34.935 --> 00:24:37.755
air like oh Well, that is important to me my health care.

00:24:37.955 --> 00:24:43.815
It is important to me and I say well if that's important to you Here is how you can control it.

00:24:43.935 --> 00:24:46.115
You may You're one vote.

00:24:46.495 --> 00:24:51.595
Yes, but you have a group of peers where you all will sit and talk about celebrities

00:24:51.595 --> 00:24:55.995
But you won't talk about what's going on right here in front of you and you

00:24:55.995 --> 00:24:59.035
have to like you explain it I had a student yesterday.

00:24:59.555 --> 00:25:03.235
They knew exactly what was going on in the world and say hey I had a conversation

00:25:03.235 --> 00:25:05.595
with one of my buddies and they don't know what's going on I said,

00:25:05.655 --> 00:25:07.735
but you understand it. Why didn't you explain it to them?

00:25:07.975 --> 00:25:11.975
Well, I don't know how I said well It starts with the conversation I said,

00:25:11.995 --> 00:25:15.855
sometimes you have to start with something that people understand and break

00:25:15.855 --> 00:25:18.495
it down into general terms for them.

00:25:18.955 --> 00:25:24.775
So right now it's going. I think it's more so the problem with 18 to 35 right

00:25:24.775 --> 00:25:27.695
now is the intergenerational gap where people.

00:25:28.982 --> 00:25:32.662
Like, between that age gap, people are very passionate about things.

00:25:32.822 --> 00:25:34.882
And then, you know, when you go a little bit above, they're like,

00:25:35.262 --> 00:25:39.142
well, I've been where you are, and you're going to have to work and show me

00:25:39.142 --> 00:25:40.902
that you're meant to be here.

00:25:41.122 --> 00:25:45.482
But it's like, at the same time, there are policies that are affecting them directly.

00:25:45.482 --> 00:25:48.442
Yes, there are policies that are affecting the older generation,

00:25:48.682 --> 00:25:50.702
but at the same time you have,

00:25:50.762 --> 00:25:55.002
you know Policies that are directly affecting them in this day and time and

00:25:55.002 --> 00:25:59.282
when they get to where you are So it's really just trying to make sure they're

00:25:59.282 --> 00:26:04.682
invited to the table to have a conversation Whenever I strategize I normally

00:26:04.682 --> 00:26:08.022
like I have a nephew that's at college I'll call him and be like hey,

00:26:08.182 --> 00:26:09.222
like what do you think about this?

00:26:09.342 --> 00:26:13.922
Like i'm really trying to get a gist of where they are in their mind thinking

00:26:13.922 --> 00:26:18.362
and then trying to make sure that everything that is done, they're somewhere

00:26:18.362 --> 00:26:23.082
along the line, they're included in that conversation, included in that strategy.

00:26:23.382 --> 00:26:28.582
And that has really been helping us. So more so talking with them versus talking

00:26:28.582 --> 00:26:32.742
to them and at them, it has helped a little bit more is what I've learned.

00:26:34.302 --> 00:26:37.702
What is the biggest challenge being the day-to-day

00:26:37.702 --> 00:26:41.262
leader of the mississippi democratic party the day-to-day

00:26:41.262 --> 00:26:44.302
challenge would be having people

00:26:44.302 --> 00:26:47.322
trust the process we all know politics

00:26:47.322 --> 00:26:50.182
has changed drastically over time what that

00:26:50.182 --> 00:26:53.762
looks like when it comes down to whether or not you're doing field whether or

00:26:53.762 --> 00:26:57.502
not you're talking about what's going on that's changed but having people trust

00:26:57.502 --> 00:27:02.702
the process of what that looks like now not a lot of uh older democrats are

00:27:02.702 --> 00:27:09.002
trusting the digital process of politics and i understand it is something new And outside of that.

00:27:09.322 --> 00:27:15.922
It's also just making sure that whatever light is shined onto Democrats,

00:27:15.922 --> 00:27:18.682
it is a good, you know, good light.

00:27:18.902 --> 00:27:23.402
I know everything is not going to be good. It's not going to be all rainbows and sunshine every day.

00:27:23.582 --> 00:27:28.582
But try to control the narrative is like, well, hey, you guys aren't doing this.

00:27:28.682 --> 00:27:30.702
And it's like, well, actually, we are.

00:27:30.922 --> 00:27:34.602
Here is what's happening. So being able to be a part of those conversations

00:27:34.602 --> 00:27:38.422
and break down realistically what's happening versus people saying,

00:27:38.602 --> 00:27:41.342
well, I feel like this is happening. This is what I read.

00:27:41.602 --> 00:27:44.942
It's kind of controlling the narrative and making sure you're correcting those

00:27:44.942 --> 00:27:49.302
things in real time versus, oh, I should have said this and,

00:27:49.322 --> 00:27:50.302
you know, stuff like that.

00:27:50.302 --> 00:27:54.982
So I've had to be a part of conversations that, you know, sometimes we want

00:27:54.982 --> 00:27:57.502
to take off the hat and I don't want to talk about this right now.

00:27:57.602 --> 00:28:03.082
But sometimes you have to because not only does it save a person from,

00:28:03.082 --> 00:28:08.542
you know, feeling security within voting, but it also gives them knowledge to

00:28:08.542 --> 00:28:09.942
pass along to the next person.

00:28:10.754 --> 00:28:18.374
Yeah. All right. So have you or Chairman Taylor talked with the DNC Chair Martin about 2026?

00:28:18.794 --> 00:28:22.674
And how are the 2026 races shaping up?

00:28:22.994 --> 00:28:27.214
Yeah, we've had conversations with DNC about it.

00:28:27.314 --> 00:28:32.074
I know Chairman Taylor has talked to Chairman Martin about 2026.

00:28:32.374 --> 00:28:36.934
Anytime we have conversations with DNC, I'm more so talking,

00:28:37.054 --> 00:28:40.214
I talk to them about 2026 and 2027 as of right now.

00:28:40.214 --> 00:28:45.414
But so far those elections like we're of course, you know, they haven't qualified

00:28:45.414 --> 00:28:49.774
yet We've had people to announce we have some speculations of a couple more

00:28:49.774 --> 00:28:54.014
people may be announcing But so far we feel like it's going to be a good race Of course,

00:28:54.214 --> 00:28:57.834
you know, we have multiple democrats that are running so we don't get into it

00:28:57.834 --> 00:29:02.354
when it comes down to primaries But we are in full support making sure that,

00:29:02.474 --> 00:29:07.134
you know All of our candidates have the necessary resources that they need One

00:29:07.134 --> 00:29:10.314
thing that we started this year between the campaign committee as well as the

00:29:10.314 --> 00:29:13.054
party staff itself is candidate training,

00:29:13.234 --> 00:29:17.734
making sure that candidates have access to partners.

00:29:18.154 --> 00:29:22.114
Resources, make sure they get endorsements, making sure they have the support

00:29:22.114 --> 00:29:24.734
when it comes down to the overall party,

00:29:24.894 --> 00:29:29.294
the county parties, and just any other partners that we have and dignitaries

00:29:29.294 --> 00:29:33.694
we have in Mississippi to make sure that they're getting all the,

00:29:33.934 --> 00:29:36.434
I guess you could say, confidence in them running their campaign.

00:29:36.534 --> 00:29:39.274
So that that has been pretty much

00:29:39.274 --> 00:29:41.914
the conversation when it comes down to of course specials for

00:29:41.914 --> 00:29:44.834
this year but 2026 and then looking forward

00:29:44.834 --> 00:29:51.414
into 2027 for those state races yeah you know and i i know it's a challenge

00:29:51.414 --> 00:30:00.094
you know i just remember my interactions with the dnc back in the day there

00:30:00.094 --> 00:30:02.794
and you know it was a big deal.

00:30:03.454 --> 00:30:07.054
When Howard Dean physically came to

00:30:07.054 --> 00:30:11.914
Mississippi he was that type of chair and I don't think we really had a chair

00:30:11.914 --> 00:30:17.254
nationally that's committed to Mississippi like he was hopefully the new chairman

00:30:17.254 --> 00:30:22.414
will be that way but I know it's I believe he will yeah and I know that's just

00:30:22.414 --> 00:30:26.214
Mississippi gets ignored bottom line and I think you know,

00:30:26.914 --> 00:30:28.634
it's something that,

00:30:29.317 --> 00:30:34.057
You know, I just, I'm just one of those people who's like, if we've got 50 states,

00:30:34.377 --> 00:30:38.497
then we need to compete in all 50 states, especially in Mississippi.

00:30:39.617 --> 00:30:43.957
Every time, absolutely. Yeah. So I was just curious.

00:30:44.117 --> 00:30:48.597
And then I've been watching, I kind of always have a vested interest in the Senate race.

00:30:48.737 --> 00:30:53.117
And I see that Emmett Till's cousin has jumped in.

00:30:53.477 --> 00:30:55.557
I know Will Colom's son is running.

00:30:56.357 --> 00:30:59.697
But it kind of concerned me about Pickens because

00:30:59.697 --> 00:31:03.297
he was the nominee in 24 and now

00:31:03.297 --> 00:31:06.937
he's going to run as an independent it's kind of are

00:31:06.937 --> 00:31:12.877
y'all concerned about that or I would say I mean we're concerned about all you

00:31:12.877 --> 00:31:17.937
know oppositions and you know people that are are entering into the race but

00:31:17.937 --> 00:31:23.197
I say you know the thing is you know I kind of hate that you know he stepped

00:31:23.197 --> 00:31:25.177
away don't really know you know,

00:31:25.277 --> 00:31:30.097
I haven't personally had a conversation with them since probably like a month before that happened.

00:31:30.197 --> 00:31:33.137
So I can't really, you know, speak on it.

00:31:33.317 --> 00:31:39.897
I, I won't say concern as in like, we don't know, but I know that one thing

00:31:39.897 --> 00:31:44.937
about it, people still view him as being a Democrat. So I'm looking at more.

00:31:45.097 --> 00:31:50.377
So you're of course are going to have like split votes when it comes down to it.

00:31:50.437 --> 00:31:53.157
Cause some people, they're not really understanding.

00:31:53.357 --> 00:31:56.677
When they say independent Democrat Republican, they don't really think about

00:31:56.677 --> 00:32:00.497
things like that because when you have municipal races, everybody kind of runs

00:32:00.497 --> 00:32:04.297
as independent sometimes. This is the first year where we had a lot of Democratic

00:32:04.297 --> 00:32:07.477
municipal committees where people actually ran as Democrats.

00:32:07.977 --> 00:32:12.897
So just looking at that and just knowing the general community,

00:32:12.897 --> 00:32:18.417
not understanding the difference and not understanding where strength may lie,

00:32:18.637 --> 00:32:21.717
I feel like it's going to be split boats. Yeah.

00:32:22.332 --> 00:32:26.912
So since you brought it up, how did the party do in the municipal races this year?

00:32:27.152 --> 00:32:32.812
Yeah, we did really good. So we had, of course, I really wish that we could

00:32:32.812 --> 00:32:37.612
have won the mayoral seat with Sonia Williams Barnes on the coast.

00:32:37.652 --> 00:32:41.932
But we had a lot of aldermen, councilman seats that were filled.

00:32:42.212 --> 00:32:46.572
We flipped seven mayoral seats. So I felt like it was really good.

00:32:46.572 --> 00:32:52.472
And what we couldn't do in the time that was given with the resources that we had.

00:32:52.672 --> 00:32:56.552
So, of course, it's going to get better, you know, in time. But I feel like

00:32:56.552 --> 00:32:59.932
we had a very good election during municipals.

00:33:00.252 --> 00:33:04.392
We fought very hard, definitely worked directly with partners to make sure that

00:33:04.392 --> 00:33:09.112
candidates were endorsed, make sure they had funding, make sure they had groundwork.

00:33:09.272 --> 00:33:13.592
And then on Election Day, we, you know, we have this war room where we make

00:33:13.592 --> 00:33:18.052
sure we have attorneys all over the state where we're directly accessing and

00:33:18.052 --> 00:33:20.692
troubleshooting things right when it happens.

00:33:20.892 --> 00:33:25.512
So I feel like we as the Democratic Party did a great job the past.

00:33:26.092 --> 00:33:28.712
Well, since I've been there the past two years, we've definitely been running

00:33:28.712 --> 00:33:33.852
an elite voter protection system on election day and kind of leading up to election day.

00:33:33.992 --> 00:33:38.812
So that has been something that was different. And we were able to troubleshoot

00:33:38.812 --> 00:33:40.932
a lot of things that happens.

00:33:41.112 --> 00:33:44.512
Voter suppression happens on election day probably more times than none,

00:33:44.712 --> 00:33:48.952
but giving voters that confidence to go back and vote, stay in line,

00:33:49.212 --> 00:33:52.712
you know, hey, here's the correct code and statute for this.

00:33:52.852 --> 00:33:56.572
Don't let them, you know, deteriorate or stir your way. So-

00:33:57.432 --> 00:34:03.432
Yeah. So how have you have you been able to network with your contemporaries

00:34:03.432 --> 00:34:05.392
in the southern states to strategize?

00:34:05.772 --> 00:34:09.552
Have you all been like picking each other's brains to figure out how we can

00:34:09.552 --> 00:34:12.252
flip flip these southern states?

00:34:12.612 --> 00:34:17.412
Yeah, we we definitely I feel like southern states, we have this special bond

00:34:17.412 --> 00:34:19.652
that we know what's going on.

00:34:19.732 --> 00:34:24.732
And we're trying to like, one, keep each other encouraged to just steer the

00:34:24.732 --> 00:34:28.712
course. like, hey, I've worked on this, you know, we've come across this issue.

00:34:28.892 --> 00:34:32.112
What have you done to, you know, work this out in your area?

00:34:32.372 --> 00:34:36.912
What, you know, what works best? So I feel like we're constantly strategizing

00:34:36.912 --> 00:34:40.172
like around the clock to see what can we do better?

00:34:40.592 --> 00:34:43.772
Okay, this is happening and this was the response.

00:34:43.992 --> 00:34:46.212
Do you feel like, you know, I should have done this, you know,

00:34:46.352 --> 00:34:49.272
a little bit more kind of going back to the drawing board as she fit,

00:34:49.412 --> 00:34:53.572
as well as just getting that support from them during these election time.

00:34:53.752 --> 00:34:56.552
Like anytime something's going on, it's like, hey guys, you know,

00:34:56.652 --> 00:35:01.412
we have, when we had municipals, we had some of the Southern states even step in and phone banging.

00:35:01.612 --> 00:35:05.592
Like that's what we're here for, to be a family network for one another.

00:35:05.772 --> 00:35:08.012
So we're assist, we'll strategize.

00:35:08.232 --> 00:35:12.812
We, you know, like I said, we go to the drawing board mostly daily because this

00:35:12.812 --> 00:35:16.312
is like an ongoing thing that never stops. So, yeah. Yeah.

00:35:17.632 --> 00:35:23.452
So way back in the dinosaur days when I ran statewide, you would look at the

00:35:23.452 --> 00:35:30.012
map and it was like the western side of the state was blue and then everything else was red.

00:35:30.252 --> 00:35:34.312
What kind of inroads has the party made going east?

00:35:34.972 --> 00:35:40.872
So right now, for one, I'll say like we have.

00:35:41.903 --> 00:35:45.563
Kind of like going to one thing I have to say for myself in particular,

00:35:45.823 --> 00:35:51.323
like I look at data and see like where has these numbers like in what point in time?

00:35:51.483 --> 00:35:55.383
Like, of course, we know people's turnout for presidential elections more so than any others.

00:35:55.603 --> 00:36:00.003
But when it comes down to like statewide races, when it comes down to,

00:36:00.023 --> 00:36:04.023
you know, special elections, one, making sure people are aware of it.

00:36:04.023 --> 00:36:09.503
To making sure that we have some people on the ground, either door knocking,

00:36:09.803 --> 00:36:12.523
either showing up doing listening sessions,

00:36:13.043 --> 00:36:20.403
voter education forms, maybe even going to a church and just giving a nonpartisan

00:36:20.403 --> 00:36:23.483
approach of like, hey, do you know this is going on right now?

00:36:23.643 --> 00:36:24.863
What's your viewpoint on it?

00:36:25.003 --> 00:36:29.603
We've also done some polling here recently where we've gotten feedback.

00:36:29.943 --> 00:36:33.523
Because I think the The thing is, more so than none, you know,

00:36:33.743 --> 00:36:38.883
every area of Mississippi, it is, Mississippi is really more blue than it is red.

00:36:39.403 --> 00:36:44.123
Some people are just afraid, I feel like some people are afraid to just really

00:36:44.123 --> 00:36:47.463
vote where they feel trust in because they just don't know.

00:36:48.123 --> 00:36:52.123
Mississippi is a personable state, so if they don't have any connection with

00:36:52.123 --> 00:36:53.923
you, they're going to vote the opposite way.

00:36:54.083 --> 00:36:58.823
And it's not anything against the candidate, it's just how Mississippi is ran

00:36:58.823 --> 00:37:02.883
in my eyes. And I know when you go to, you know, of course, top of the state,

00:37:03.343 --> 00:37:06.543
middle of the state to the bottom of the state, it's like three different climates, right?

00:37:06.723 --> 00:37:10.343
When it comes down to people and, you know, how they view things.

00:37:10.343 --> 00:37:13.923
But we just got to, you know, meet people where they are.

00:37:14.223 --> 00:37:20.023
We got to understand what they view as being important in each community and

00:37:20.023 --> 00:37:26.543
see how we can better explain things as well as have candidates for one better

00:37:26.543 --> 00:37:29.803
understand what's going on in the areas in which they are running.

00:37:30.663 --> 00:37:34.843
Yeah. Yeah. And for the listeners, when when when Ms.

00:37:34.863 --> 00:37:38.683
Bolden talks about personable, it's like, you know.

00:37:39.338 --> 00:37:43.298
You could have this fancy title, I'm the governor, I'm the treasurer, whatever.

00:37:43.718 --> 00:37:46.238
But in Mississippi, they're either going to call you by your first name,

00:37:46.318 --> 00:37:50.198
your last name, whichever one fits the rhythm of the conversation, right?

00:37:50.558 --> 00:37:51.898
They're not going to say, oh,

00:37:51.978 --> 00:37:54.878
Governor Sorensen. No, no, they're going to call you by your first name.

00:37:56.298 --> 00:38:01.398
So, yeah, Mississippians, when they get invested in somebody,

00:38:02.218 --> 00:38:07.918
they really think the key is getting the vast majority of them invested.

00:38:07.918 --> 00:38:10.498
I know that's been always the challenge.

00:38:11.058 --> 00:38:15.678
So at the end of your service to the party, whenever that is,

00:38:15.978 --> 00:38:18.578
what would you want your legacy to be?

00:38:19.078 --> 00:38:28.638
I want my legacy to be that of trust, that of integrity when it comes down to

00:38:28.638 --> 00:38:32.438
the relationship between the party and the community.

00:38:32.438 --> 00:38:35.498
Making sure that anytime I leave

00:38:35.498 --> 00:38:39.758
from somewhere I have left a mark of education Of

00:38:39.758 --> 00:38:42.698
a continuation of you know passion about

00:38:42.698 --> 00:38:48.158
something Making sure that people are known of what's going on around them So

00:38:48.158 --> 00:38:54.698
I would say more so just trust and integrity rebuilding that So I feel like

00:38:54.698 --> 00:38:59.778
that could be you know something as well as support to candidates where candidates

00:38:59.778 --> 00:39:01.718
feel they can trust the party,

00:39:01.898 --> 00:39:05.258
where candidates feel like they can lean on the party to get assistance.

00:39:05.258 --> 00:39:09.438
That's really what I want my legacy to be outside of candidates community.

00:39:10.018 --> 00:39:12.318
So candidates and community trust and integrity.

00:39:13.258 --> 00:39:17.638
Well, I'm really impressed. It sounds like you actually thought about this.

00:39:17.818 --> 00:39:22.418
A lot of times I'll ask somebody a question like that and they got to stop for a minute and pause.

00:39:22.758 --> 00:39:24.798
You went right into it. So I'm

00:39:24.798 --> 00:39:28.538
really impressed that you've you put some thought into that. All right.

00:39:28.658 --> 00:39:32.158
So you're the last question I want to ask you is not about politics.

00:39:32.518 --> 00:39:37.518
I know you've been heavily involved in nonprofits. So quickly talk about the

00:39:37.518 --> 00:39:42.918
work that you do with nonprofits, you know, especially ones that you've either

00:39:42.918 --> 00:39:44.918
started or you continue to work with.

00:39:45.658 --> 00:39:49.478
Yeah. So I personally have my own nonprofit, The Humble Change,

00:39:49.858 --> 00:39:55.718
where working with youth when it comes to mentorship and making sure that youth

00:39:55.718 --> 00:39:57.998
have a place of belonging.

00:39:58.398 --> 00:40:01.238
So that is something that's very important to me.

00:40:01.378 --> 00:40:06.138
Now, when it comes down to advocacy and policy work and things of that nature,

00:40:06.418 --> 00:40:10.378
just making sure that I keep those relationships with nonpartisan groups.

00:40:10.378 --> 00:40:13.798
Like I said, I was working with Mississippi Votes, built their election protection

00:40:13.798 --> 00:40:20.658
program, just making sure that the integrity of Mississippi is looked at and made important.

00:40:20.818 --> 00:40:24.218
Because like you said earlier, you know, people overlook Mississippi,

00:40:24.218 --> 00:40:27.418
but sometimes it's the lack of knowing

00:40:27.418 --> 00:40:31.118
when it comes down to the people of Mississippi. They just don't know.

00:40:31.378 --> 00:40:37.038
I've changed a lot of people in mindset just by having a conversation with them.

00:40:37.038 --> 00:40:41.418
So just more so keeping the connections, making sure that the partnerships are

00:40:41.418 --> 00:40:43.798
there when it comes down to Election Day.

00:40:44.538 --> 00:40:49.978
Making sure that in whatever way we can assist them on Election Day and get

00:40:49.978 --> 00:40:54.038
those resources over to them, as well as maybe take over whatever their issue

00:40:54.038 --> 00:40:56.378
may be that they may not have.

00:40:56.378 --> 00:41:01.398
Like, I wouldn't say the control over, but we may have like a little bit more push we could do.

00:41:01.538 --> 00:41:04.038
We take over that initiative and make sure that it's done.

00:41:04.258 --> 00:41:08.098
So just continuation of partnership and making sure that,

00:41:08.784 --> 00:41:13.944
you know, everybody understands what each organization is supposed to do.

00:41:13.944 --> 00:41:17.184
You have great groups that are here. You have One Voice.

00:41:17.404 --> 00:41:22.004
You have, of course, Mississippi Votes. You have Mississippi Engage. You have We Must Vote.

00:41:22.824 --> 00:41:28.244
You also have Black Women's Roundtable, like making sure that all those connections

00:41:28.244 --> 00:41:33.764
are at the same table or at least a part of the conversation and are aware of

00:41:33.764 --> 00:41:37.904
what's going on all around Mississippi so nobody's left out. Yeah.

00:41:38.604 --> 00:41:44.284
All right. So, Mikkel Bolden, I just want to thank you for coming on,

00:41:44.424 --> 00:41:49.044
but I really, really am glad that you are in the position you are in.

00:41:49.424 --> 00:41:54.904
It sounds like the party's in good hands with you running the day-to-day operations.

00:41:55.924 --> 00:42:02.564
And I like your optimism and your, well, I'll say pragmatic optimism because

00:42:02.564 --> 00:42:08.124
I know you're dealing with stuff, but you seem to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

00:42:08.344 --> 00:42:10.944
And that's very, very important in Mississippi politics.

00:42:11.344 --> 00:42:15.384
If people want to get in touch with you, whether it's dealing with the party

00:42:15.384 --> 00:42:18.224
or whether dealing with your nonprofit work, how can they do that?

00:42:18.864 --> 00:42:23.544
Yeah. So if they want to get in contact with me, when it comes down to social medias.

00:42:23.824 --> 00:42:28.444
If you look up The Humble Change, that's T-H-E, Humble Change,

00:42:28.484 --> 00:42:30.464
all together, you can find me there.

00:42:31.084 --> 00:42:37.964
Mikel Taylor is my name on Facebook. That's my maiden name, but you can contact me there.

00:42:38.384 --> 00:42:43.624
Just reach out. You type in Mikel, I'm pretty sure a social media is going to come up.

00:42:43.764 --> 00:42:46.564
I have an author page that's Blossoms Truth.

00:42:47.204 --> 00:42:51.404
So either of those pages, just type it in, look me up. If you look up Mississippi

00:42:51.404 --> 00:42:52.624
Democrats, you'll find me.

00:42:52.844 --> 00:42:56.364
So I'm here and willing to have whatever conversations, you know,

00:42:56.564 --> 00:43:01.424
with people, not one to steer away from making connection to make sure that

00:43:01.424 --> 00:43:03.804
we have a better state. So I'm here.

00:43:04.652 --> 00:43:08.032
All right. Well, thank you again for coming on. I greatly appreciate it.

00:43:08.472 --> 00:43:10.712
No problem, man. Thank you for your time, Mr. Fleming.

00:43:11.312 --> 00:43:13.572
All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:32.080
Music.

00:43:30.232 --> 00:43:34.652
We'll see you next time. All right. And we are back.

00:43:35.032 --> 00:43:39.452
And so now it is time for my next guest, Renee Williams.

00:43:39.452 --> 00:43:45.752
Renee Williams is a dedicated advocate and leader in the field of victim services,

00:43:46.112 --> 00:43:51.952
currently serving as chief executive officer of the National Center of Victims of Crime.

00:43:52.292 --> 00:43:56.512
With over 15 years of experience in the nonprofit and legal sectors,

00:43:57.072 --> 00:44:01.972
Renee has a proven track record of championing the rights and needs of victims of crime.

00:44:01.972 --> 00:44:08.292
Prior to her role at NCVC, Renee was the executive director of a legal services

00:44:08.292 --> 00:44:12.972
organization in Pittsburgh that focused on the legal rights of victims of domestic

00:44:12.972 --> 00:44:15.152
violence and other indigent clients.

00:44:16.012 --> 00:44:21.252
Renee is a sought-after speaker nationally, known for her dynamic presentations

00:44:21.252 --> 00:44:24.312
and ability to engage diverse audiences.

00:44:24.312 --> 00:44:29.332
She has represented NCVC on NBC Nightly News with Lester Holt.

00:44:30.312 --> 00:44:34.312
Court TV, HLN, and is a frequent guest on podcasts.

00:44:34.612 --> 00:44:38.672
She has been instrumental in shaping national conversations around victims'

00:44:38.812 --> 00:44:43.452
rights and has been a vocal advocate for changes to the justice system that

00:44:43.452 --> 00:44:45.872
better protect and support victims of crime.

00:44:45.872 --> 00:44:50.872
As the Executive Director of the NCVC, Renee continues to lead with integrity,

00:44:51.072 --> 00:44:55.812
compassion, and a commitment to making a difference in the lives of those affected by crime.

00:44:56.012 --> 00:45:01.112
Her vision and dedication have made her a respected figure in the victim services

00:45:01.112 --> 00:45:06.372
field, and she remains a tireless advocate for those whose voices often go unheard.

00:45:06.372 --> 00:45:11.172
Her passion for empowering survivors and creating a more and just,

00:45:11.292 --> 00:45:16.052
compassionate society has been the driving force behind her career and reaches

00:45:16.052 --> 00:45:17.512
beyond her professional interests.

00:45:17.772 --> 00:45:23.332
She mentors through Big Brothers Big Sisters, advocates for children as a court-appointed

00:45:23.332 --> 00:45:27.852
special advocate, and as a weekly volunteer at Maryland Therapeutic Writing.

00:45:28.532 --> 00:45:33.492
For these efforts, she has been recognized as an Athena Young professional finalist,

00:45:34.072 --> 00:45:38.252
named one of Pittsburgh's 40 Under 40, and received a Jefferson Award.

00:45:38.892 --> 00:45:42.172
Renee holds a Juris Doctorate from the University of Pittsburgh School of Law

00:45:42.172 --> 00:45:46.612
and a Bachelor's Degree in Theater Arts from Point Park University.

00:45:46.952 --> 00:45:51.132
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:45:51.132 --> 00:45:54.492
on this podcast, Renee Williams.

00:45:56.400 --> 00:46:06.000
Music.

00:46:05.841 --> 00:46:09.401
All right. Renee Williams. How you doing, ma'am? You doing good?

00:46:09.881 --> 00:46:12.961
I'm good. It's Friday. It's sunny. I'm good to go. How are you doing?

00:46:13.261 --> 00:46:16.421
I'm doing all right. It's not as sunny here in Atlanta where I am,

00:46:16.521 --> 00:46:17.821
but it's still a good day.

00:46:18.001 --> 00:46:22.221
So I'm glad for that. And I'm really glad to have you come on.

00:46:22.481 --> 00:46:25.201
I think the work that you do is very, very important.

00:46:25.741 --> 00:46:29.161
As somebody that's been an elected official and somebody that's been in law

00:46:29.161 --> 00:46:36.281
enforcement, I think, you know, advocates for people that have experienced crime is very important.

00:46:36.441 --> 00:46:40.401
And it seems to have been something that I think people took for granted and

00:46:40.401 --> 00:46:41.941
we'll dive into that a little more.

00:46:42.141 --> 00:46:44.961
But it seems like some people took for granted for a lot of years.

00:46:44.961 --> 00:46:48.821
And then I'd say over the last 20 years or so, people have been like,

00:46:49.541 --> 00:46:50.781
hey, we might need to look out

00:46:50.781 --> 00:46:55.421
for the folks that have been victims or survivors of criminal activity.

00:46:55.421 --> 00:47:01.781
So I'm glad that you have ventured into that, and we'll dive into why you decided to do that.

00:47:02.061 --> 00:47:05.241
But before we get started, I do a couple of icebreakers.

00:47:05.661 --> 00:47:08.361
So the first icebreaker is a quote.

00:47:09.341 --> 00:47:14.001
Survivors deserve control over their own destinies, not the exploitation of

00:47:14.001 --> 00:47:18.901
their families and private lives to serve political goals. What does that quote mean to you?

00:47:19.381 --> 00:47:22.861
First of all, who said that? That's brilliant. I think you did.

00:47:25.421 --> 00:47:28.401
Well, that's awkward. I'm a genius.

00:47:30.981 --> 00:47:35.801
I think that what I meant by that and what that means to me is that a lot of

00:47:35.801 --> 00:47:40.301
times you see in any politics, people will say they're tough on crime.

00:47:40.401 --> 00:47:41.261
They're not tough on crime.

00:47:41.381 --> 00:47:46.861
They stand for survivors and they say it for clickbait, but they don't always

00:47:46.861 --> 00:47:50.621
know exactly what that means. And what we have found that means is actually

00:47:50.621 --> 00:47:55.361
walking with survivors to help them with what they need.

00:47:55.681 --> 00:48:01.741
Not all survivors want the same thing, and not all survivors want what some

00:48:01.741 --> 00:48:03.961
politicians put out there that they say they want.

00:48:04.441 --> 00:48:07.941
Survivors are not a monolith. They all have different feelings and opinions,

00:48:07.961 --> 00:48:14.141
and each survivor individually has the right to decide what path is going to

00:48:14.141 --> 00:48:16.581
get them to their point of healing.

00:48:17.391 --> 00:48:22.771
Yeah. And don't feel bad. Not everybody recognizes their own genius when I do

00:48:22.771 --> 00:48:24.371
that quote icebreaker thing.

00:48:24.791 --> 00:48:30.391
But, you know, it's all good. And now the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.

00:48:30.871 --> 00:48:33.911
So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

00:48:34.171 --> 00:48:39.151
Looking for some guidance. The first number I see on my wall is six. Okay.

00:48:39.731 --> 00:48:45.291
Well, what do you think was the worst, best thing the previous administration

00:48:45.291 --> 00:48:48.231
did? I'm going to punt on that on the 12th.

00:48:49.411 --> 00:48:52.331
Did we say 12? Yeah. All right.

00:48:52.871 --> 00:48:57.951
What advice do you have for recognizing fake news, like propaganda,

00:48:58.131 --> 00:48:59.651
misinformation, disinformation?

00:49:00.151 --> 00:49:04.711
I think you've got to do your own research on everything. I think that all social

00:49:04.711 --> 00:49:09.911
media has really led us down a path of just believing whatever we see.

00:49:10.151 --> 00:49:15.531
I fall into that quite a bit. Make sure you verify everything you hear. Okay.

00:49:16.151 --> 00:49:20.431
All right. So how did you become an advocate for crime victims?

00:49:21.251 --> 00:49:25.911
So there was victimization in my family. And I think whenever you speak to somebody

00:49:25.911 --> 00:49:27.971
in the crime victims field, this is what you find.

00:49:28.151 --> 00:49:31.611
There is a history of some type of victimization, whether it's a family member,

00:49:31.791 --> 00:49:37.371
whether it's themselves. So there was a history of victimization within my extended

00:49:37.371 --> 00:49:41.271
family that really impacted how I saw things as a child.

00:49:41.291 --> 00:49:47.171
I was then a victim of crime at the age of 19, which also impacted how I saw

00:49:47.171 --> 00:49:48.271
the world and viewed the world.

00:49:48.271 --> 00:49:54.531
And I went to law school after that and got the corporate job that everybody

00:49:54.531 --> 00:49:58.451
wants, that everybody longs for in law school and realized that I just wasn't

00:49:58.451 --> 00:50:01.951
using my talents and my capability to the best of my abilities.

00:50:01.951 --> 00:50:06.671
I'm Christian, and there's a wonderful quote, to whom much is given, much will be expected.

00:50:07.531 --> 00:50:12.351
And also, I trusted you with a little, so I will trust you with a lot.

00:50:12.371 --> 00:50:17.091
And I didn't think that I was living that out by being just a corporate lawyer

00:50:17.091 --> 00:50:18.811
that kind of filled a hole.

00:50:19.795 --> 00:50:25.095
So I started to look at how to best expand what I was doing.

00:50:25.095 --> 00:50:28.595
And I started actually at a small nonprofit in Pennsylvania,

00:50:28.955 --> 00:50:33.615
just outside of Pittsburgh, working on just domestic violence work and helping

00:50:33.615 --> 00:50:38.295
victims of domestic violence within their court proceedings. And it led to this.

00:50:39.135 --> 00:50:44.635
Okay. So when you say this, you're talking about the National Center for Victims of Crime.

00:50:44.895 --> 00:50:48.955
What exactly is the National Center for Victims of Crime? Well,

00:50:49.115 --> 00:50:52.675
we were founded in 1985, so we're celebrating our 40th anniversary.

00:50:52.795 --> 00:50:57.955
We were founded by a family whose mother was killed by her husband,

00:50:57.955 --> 00:51:03.675
and her children were very privileged and very wealthy and very poorly treated

00:51:03.675 --> 00:51:05.575
by both the justice system and the media.

00:51:05.575 --> 00:51:10.395
And they realized that if they went through that from their place of privilege,

00:51:10.395 --> 00:51:14.095
what a struggle an average everyday victim must have.

00:51:14.235 --> 00:51:17.175
And they wanted to make sure that there was some help. So they formed us.

00:51:17.295 --> 00:51:21.955
We started really as an advocacy group that pushed for a lot of the original

00:51:21.955 --> 00:51:23.295
victims' laws. And you're right.

00:51:23.515 --> 00:51:27.575
For a long time, it's just been within the past few decades that we've recognized

00:51:27.575 --> 00:51:30.915
that we need to give victims rights within the justice system.

00:51:31.215 --> 00:51:36.635
And so they recognize that. So we really pushed for VOCA and VAWA 40 years ago,

00:51:36.755 --> 00:51:41.235
which are two different forms of legislation that have really changed the landscape of victims rights.

00:51:41.235 --> 00:51:46.295
Now we provide training and technical assistance to police officers.

00:51:46.635 --> 00:51:50.195
To judges, to lawyers, to anybody who helps someone in the justice system.

00:51:50.515 --> 00:51:54.755
We also help victims directly through our hotline. And we do a couple of other

00:51:54.755 --> 00:51:59.175
things just to make sure that we are trying our best to create a victim-centered

00:51:59.175 --> 00:52:04.055
ecosphere of the justice system. We've oddly gotten a little bit away from our roots.

00:52:04.215 --> 00:52:06.415
We don't do advocacy anymore.

00:52:06.655 --> 00:52:11.975
We don't do nearly, I wouldn't say not at all, but we really don't push for laws.

00:52:12.035 --> 00:52:16.295
We try to stay out of legislation and politics unless it's something that very

00:52:16.295 --> 00:52:19.595
much impacts and harms a victim. Okay.

00:52:20.542 --> 00:52:25.662
Your organization survived the recent suspension of grants from the U.S.

00:52:26.082 --> 00:52:30.442
Department of Justice, except for one. How were you able to do that,

00:52:30.462 --> 00:52:34.462
and how will the loss grant impact your organization?

00:52:34.842 --> 00:52:39.922
So we did, we had originally five of our grants or subgrants cut.

00:52:40.142 --> 00:52:44.082
We managed to convince them that two of our grants were very valuable.

00:52:44.082 --> 00:52:50.142
And we were able to do that because we were able to show our story and prove

00:52:50.142 --> 00:52:54.422
our story and prove the two that were returned how truly valuable those were.

00:52:54.622 --> 00:52:58.502
One of the grants that had originally been cut that was restored within 24 hours

00:52:58.502 --> 00:53:05.702
was our hotline that provides 24-7 services to all victims of crime with no questions asked.

00:53:05.862 --> 00:53:11.122
So that was restored almost immediately as was another grant that provides what

00:53:11.122 --> 00:53:12.582
we think are very valuable services.

00:53:12.862 --> 00:53:18.102
And we just, we were able to get out there and explain why our grants,

00:53:18.242 --> 00:53:22.302
why our programs were so valuable. And we were incredibly lucky that the Justice

00:53:22.302 --> 00:53:23.762
Department agreed with us.

00:53:24.522 --> 00:53:28.662
The other three grants, we've had to make some cuts. We've had to look at ways

00:53:28.662 --> 00:53:30.842
that we do business and make some changes.

00:53:31.002 --> 00:53:35.902
We did have to do layoffs of some of our staff members who were on those grants

00:53:35.902 --> 00:53:39.262
and were working specifically with those programs. So we did have to make those cuts.

00:53:40.262 --> 00:53:47.382
Yeah. So it was five in total and you were able to maintain two and then you lost. Correct.

00:53:47.642 --> 00:53:53.662
Okay. I thought it was just three. I only saw three that got highlighted, but okay.

00:53:53.982 --> 00:53:58.422
So two of when I say the five, we were called sub-grandson.

00:53:58.482 --> 00:54:02.582
So we were working with somebody else and that person lost their program and

00:54:02.582 --> 00:54:06.042
therefore we got cut off as well. I got you. Okay.

00:54:06.850 --> 00:54:13.070
Talk about your work toward helping fraud victims overcome shame and sadness.

00:54:13.590 --> 00:54:23.290
So fraud victims are one of the last understood victims, victim types in our kind of society now.

00:54:23.290 --> 00:54:28.690
We've gotten away from victim blaming in every single other type of crime except for fraud.

00:54:28.830 --> 00:54:33.450
And we still use victim blaming language like how could you fall for this?

00:54:33.950 --> 00:54:38.330
So for victims of fraud, a lot of people think it's just money.

00:54:38.650 --> 00:54:40.750
You just lost money and it's your own fault.

00:54:41.170 --> 00:54:46.070
That's not actually true. A lot of times they are still having to interact with the world.

00:54:46.190 --> 00:54:49.290
So there is still a moment of fear when they have to interface with the world.

00:54:49.430 --> 00:54:53.550
They've also often lost a relationship if it was a romance scam.

00:54:53.770 --> 00:54:57.970
They've lost someone that they genuinely believed cared about them.

00:54:57.970 --> 00:55:02.610
And a lot of times they're facing shame, both from people who are judging them

00:55:02.610 --> 00:55:05.550
and wondering how they could have fallen for something.

00:55:05.670 --> 00:55:11.470
And I use that those words with air quotes, but also shame from their family.

00:55:11.670 --> 00:55:14.990
You know, a lot of times we see individuals who lose their entire life savings

00:55:14.990 --> 00:55:17.450
and what they really meant on to pass to their family.

00:55:17.810 --> 00:55:20.650
And they're so worried about how folks will react to that.

00:55:21.470 --> 00:55:28.490
Yeah, well, I I I went through that. It was like a fraud situation.

00:55:28.910 --> 00:55:35.490
Somebody got into my bank account and, you know, at first the bank was working with me and all that.

00:55:35.750 --> 00:55:38.910
And then I ended up losing the account anyway.

00:55:39.790 --> 00:55:44.270
And, you know, so I kind of a lot of those emotions you talked about,

00:55:44.310 --> 00:55:45.950
I definitely was feeling that.

00:55:46.110 --> 00:55:49.910
It's like, how did how did I let that happen? And, you know,

00:55:50.370 --> 00:55:56.730
you're trying to figure out what did you do wrong to get into that place?

00:55:56.730 --> 00:55:59.650
And then when you end up losing the account anyway, it's like,

00:55:59.730 --> 00:56:03.650
well, why even bother? You know what I'm saying? So it's like.

00:56:04.204 --> 00:56:09.264
So you help people kind of walk through those emotions and all that kind of stuff.

00:56:09.484 --> 00:56:13.004
And I want to say with that, you know, and there's so many words,

00:56:13.124 --> 00:56:14.984
we can call them fraudsters, scam artists.

00:56:15.284 --> 00:56:19.824
I hate the term scam artists because it makes them seem like they're fancy in

00:56:19.824 --> 00:56:22.644
some way. Even fraudsters is a little too cutesy for me.

00:56:22.864 --> 00:56:26.644
I think perpetrator, I think we should call them perpetrators of fraud.

00:56:26.644 --> 00:56:32.204
But perpetrators have become so smart and so advanced, and there are really

00:56:32.204 --> 00:56:38.124
entire organizations that are built around scamming one person.

00:56:38.444 --> 00:56:42.344
And so that's what I think is very important for everybody to understand is

00:56:42.344 --> 00:56:48.704
we see this across the spectrum from education level, race, position in life.

00:56:48.704 --> 00:56:55.764
Anybody could become a victim of a scammer because they really have become incredibly

00:56:55.764 --> 00:57:02.404
sophisticated at what they say there is a science they use to how to get into

00:57:02.404 --> 00:57:05.384
your mind and convince you that they are who they are.

00:57:05.944 --> 00:57:13.384
It's not your kind of grandmother's fraud of let me give you a call and say

00:57:13.384 --> 00:57:15.324
it's a publisher's clearinghouse check.

00:57:15.524 --> 00:57:18.564
It's become much more advanced and sophisticated than that.

00:57:19.164 --> 00:57:22.804
Yeah. And then is it the published current house?

00:57:22.944 --> 00:57:27.924
I think they just, there's one guy that's waiting on his money and he never

00:57:27.924 --> 00:57:29.064
got, they just shut down.

00:57:29.244 --> 00:57:34.124
And I hope he gets his money. But yeah, he's like in the lurch.

00:57:34.604 --> 00:57:38.084
They said, well, we filed bankruptcy. It's like, and? It's like,

00:57:38.164 --> 00:57:39.984
you still need to pay that debt.

00:57:40.184 --> 00:57:46.284
But yeah. I met one young woman who has a master's degree in computer science

00:57:46.284 --> 00:57:49.764
and was a victim of an employment scam.

00:57:49.964 --> 00:57:53.424
So somebody texted her and said, we're looking for this type of position.

00:57:53.424 --> 00:57:56.484
We found your resume on Monster or some other site.

00:57:56.644 --> 00:57:59.424
I probably shouldn't call out certain sites, but we found your resume at this

00:57:59.424 --> 00:58:01.204
place. Are you still interested in a job?

00:58:02.564 --> 00:58:06.304
And, you know, she went in for an interview. There was a real interview.

00:58:06.824 --> 00:58:10.024
And next thing you know, she had given them her bank account information because

00:58:10.024 --> 00:58:13.124
she was hired and they wanted to put her on payroll.

00:58:13.764 --> 00:58:21.184
And it was all a sham. So incredibly educated people are becoming victims of scams as well.

00:58:21.204 --> 00:58:26.064
It has nothing to do with your intelligence or kind of, quote, falling for it.

00:58:26.984 --> 00:58:34.204
Yeah. So I want to get back to this particular point we were discussing about the focus.

00:58:34.484 --> 00:58:39.704
Why do you think in the United States, I can't speak for any country,

00:58:39.984 --> 00:58:45.344
why do you think in the United States there's a stigma attached to people who

00:58:45.344 --> 00:58:47.744
are victims or survivors of crime?

00:58:48.711 --> 00:58:51.671
Wait, I'm sorry. We broke up right at that moment you froze.

00:58:51.871 --> 00:58:53.111
So could you repeat the question?

00:58:54.071 --> 00:59:00.171
Oh, I was saying in the United States, why do you think that there's a stigma

00:59:00.171 --> 00:59:04.411
on people who are victims or survivors of crime?

00:59:04.931 --> 00:59:09.911
I think it depends on the crime type, but I think it's deeply psychological.

00:59:09.911 --> 00:59:14.591
And I think that we believe that we ourselves as a human would,

00:59:14.831 --> 00:59:17.171
if it's a scam, not fall for something.

00:59:17.171 --> 00:59:22.611
If it is a sexual abuse case, not be in that position. I think that we desperately.

00:59:23.711 --> 00:59:27.951
Somewhere deep in our psyche, want to believe that we could protect ourselves from something.

00:59:28.131 --> 00:59:30.951
And the bad things don't just happen if we do everything right.

00:59:31.271 --> 00:59:35.891
And I think that bleeds out into when we are looking at victims.

00:59:36.131 --> 00:59:39.371
And frankly, I think that that is why there's an obsession with true crime in

00:59:39.371 --> 00:59:42.471
the United States. We call it protective vigilantism.

00:59:43.451 --> 00:59:48.311
It's why did this happened to somebody else? And why am I different?

00:59:48.551 --> 00:59:51.851
Why would this never happen to me because of how I live my life?

00:59:53.191 --> 00:59:58.651
Yeah, I do think, you know, that that that explains a lot of things that we do,

00:59:58.851 --> 01:00:04.131
you know, like which neighborhoods we try to buy a house in or move into,

01:00:04.151 --> 01:00:08.491
you know, schools that that we choose for our children to go,

01:00:08.711 --> 01:00:11.411
all that kind of stuff, thinking that,

01:00:12.231 --> 01:00:19.991
well, we're in a certain spot, then we're not going to be exposed to crime as

01:00:19.991 --> 01:00:26.571
opposed to living in, you know, the city or whatever, right?

01:00:27.291 --> 01:00:35.451
And so now, do you think that your organization and others have done a good

01:00:35.451 --> 01:00:40.771
job in letting people know that, I guess for a better term,

01:00:41.571 --> 01:00:51.431
that it's not okay that you went through that, but it's not something to be ashamed of if you did.

01:00:52.331 --> 01:00:56.691
I think we've done a lot of work on that. I think that it is the human condition.

01:00:57.691 --> 01:01:02.271
To just naturally always wonder what you could have done differently and how

01:01:02.271 --> 01:01:06.571
to not be ashamed. And so we do work with folks on that.

01:01:06.711 --> 01:01:13.631
I think that really the field and the movement in the past 40 years has made

01:01:13.631 --> 01:01:18.331
huge strides in that area of people not victim blaming and of victims not blaming themselves.

01:01:18.591 --> 01:01:23.451
But I do think that that is always the human condition to kind of kick back to that instinctually.

01:01:23.751 --> 01:01:28.931
Like, what could I have done differently? I walk on a trail just about every day.

01:01:29.731 --> 01:01:31.151
And if something happened to

01:01:31.151 --> 01:01:34.611
me, what could I have done? Should I have carried a bigger thing of mace?

01:01:34.811 --> 01:01:39.791
Should I have brought my dog that day? We want to naturally break down a series

01:01:39.791 --> 01:01:42.171
of decisions to see what we could have changed.

01:01:43.211 --> 01:01:48.791
Yeah. What about the trauma aspect of it? How do you help people get through trauma?

01:01:49.491 --> 01:01:52.031
So a lot of times we have to figure out what they need first.

01:01:52.211 --> 01:01:57.071
So our hotline, again, we have victim assistance specialists who will help people

01:01:57.071 --> 01:01:59.551
process what they have been through.

01:01:59.671 --> 01:02:05.791
The first and most important part in any processing of trauma is ensuring that somebody feels safe.

01:02:05.971 --> 01:02:10.451
You cannot start to process trauma until you feel like you are in a safe place.

01:02:10.451 --> 01:02:14.831
So that is step one. And then after that, again, everybody needs something different.

01:02:15.051 --> 01:02:21.491
You can have a victim of a somewhat violent crime who says they're OK and genuinely

01:02:21.491 --> 01:02:23.691
believes they're OK and that they did not have trauma.

01:02:23.871 --> 01:02:26.251
And that's not usually true, but maybe it is.

01:02:26.871 --> 01:02:32.931
We process things so differently as individual humans that it's really one on

01:02:32.931 --> 01:02:37.171
one case by case basis when we are working with somebody. Yeah.

01:02:37.691 --> 01:02:43.011
Why is it, why is court backlog devastating to victims of crime?

01:02:44.411 --> 01:02:47.451
When something bad happens to

01:02:47.451 --> 01:02:50.311
you your instinct is to want to

01:02:50.311 --> 01:02:53.171
move on and so a lot of times that

01:02:53.171 --> 01:02:58.891
we see this with civil cases as well in the moment you want to address the wrong

01:02:58.891 --> 01:03:02.671
that was done and you want to make sure that this doesn't happen to somebody

01:03:02.671 --> 01:03:07.231
else but as time drags on and you get further and further out from that traumatic

01:03:07.231 --> 01:03:11.771
event you don't want to keep being reminded of it so So that's part one.

01:03:11.891 --> 01:03:16.451
But part two is a lot of times, the longer something drags out,

01:03:16.631 --> 01:03:21.851
the more victims and witnesses are subject to intimidation, retaliation and threats.

01:03:22.491 --> 01:03:28.971
And so if there's not a quick prosecution, you're going to see victims and witnesses

01:03:28.971 --> 01:03:34.811
lose interest is the wrong word, but kind of lose steam and not want to be involved

01:03:34.811 --> 01:03:36.231
because they need that space.

01:03:37.071 --> 01:03:40.691
So how does your organization help people deal with that?

01:03:41.351 --> 01:03:47.971
Again, it's on a case-by-case. So our hotline workers will walk people through what the process is.

01:03:48.271 --> 01:03:52.011
They will try to provide emotional support to everything that's happening.

01:03:52.271 --> 01:03:56.451
We do try to work with prosecutors on moving cases along.

01:03:56.651 --> 01:04:01.371
So not directly helping victims, but actually helping the individuals that are moving these cases.

01:04:01.371 --> 01:04:07.871
And we look at best practices on how to make sure that the backlog is going

01:04:07.871 --> 01:04:15.971
as quickly as possible. Is there a particular state or city or...

01:04:17.105 --> 01:04:24.645
Environment where you see those backlogs more or is it, I shouldn't say a state

01:04:24.645 --> 01:04:25.665
because you probably don't want

01:04:25.665 --> 01:04:30.585
to name a state, but is there a particular type of state or type of city,

01:04:31.685 --> 01:04:36.525
where it's like, okay, well, we know there's going to be a situation we're going to have to help,

01:04:37.205 --> 01:04:41.025
you know, and I'm sure you don't, people reach out to you all.

01:04:41.185 --> 01:04:45.025
You don't go out and, And, you know, like attorneys with billboards,

01:04:45.305 --> 01:04:49.885
you know, you just, you know, if people call, then you just deal with it as,

01:04:50.185 --> 01:04:52.305
like you said, per case basis.

01:04:52.605 --> 01:04:57.525
You know, that's a great question. I honestly don't know because a lot of times

01:04:57.525 --> 01:05:00.365
we aren't looking at individuals on the front end.

01:05:00.805 --> 01:05:05.245
We're looking at them post that. And a lot of the information we're getting is post that.

01:05:05.425 --> 01:05:09.345
So that's somewhere that I'm not an expert in because we're helping victims

01:05:09.345 --> 01:05:11.025
and not necessarily the court process.

01:05:11.025 --> 01:05:17.605
So that's probably not the question for me to try to answer Okay, I got you,

01:05:18.345 --> 01:05:23.405
So as we were recording this Yesterday was the National Day of Remembrance for

01:05:23.405 --> 01:05:29.045
Murder Victims How does your organization help commemorate that day annually?

01:05:30.205 --> 01:05:35.285
Well, we do try to be respectful of that on social media We will push things

01:05:35.285 --> 01:05:40.585
out But I think when it comes to commemoration days We don't necessarily do

01:05:40.585 --> 01:05:45.945
anything extra special because we know we're needed the other 364 days a year.

01:05:46.165 --> 01:05:52.145
So for us, every day is national commemoration of homicide victims because we

01:05:52.145 --> 01:05:56.105
are on the phone with those families. We are constantly trying to help them.

01:05:57.085 --> 01:06:06.445
Yeah. Do you feel that we are getting to a point now where we're getting desensitized

01:06:06.445 --> 01:06:11.885
to things, being desensitized to crime, particular types of crime?

01:06:12.005 --> 01:06:17.165
Or do you think that we still have this incredible human element out here of

01:06:17.165 --> 01:06:25.645
compassion and your work is appreciated for what you're doing?

01:06:26.378 --> 01:06:29.798
I think our work is appreciated. I think we still have the human element.

01:06:30.058 --> 01:06:34.458
But I think that I can think all of those things and also know for a fact that

01:06:34.458 --> 01:06:36.878
we are becoming grossly desensitized.

01:06:37.798 --> 01:06:41.338
And I think a lot of that isn't what most people think because a lot of people

01:06:41.338 --> 01:06:43.678
want to point to the mass shootings and all of that.

01:06:43.838 --> 01:06:47.378
It's actually has its genesis in true crime as a genre.

01:06:47.958 --> 01:06:52.418
And we work with true crime creators. We do try to help them make victim centered

01:06:52.418 --> 01:07:00.318
media. But in the past 10 years, we've seen such an explosion of true crime content.

01:07:00.598 --> 01:07:07.278
You could, if you chose, listen to a different true crime case for probably

01:07:07.278 --> 01:07:12.758
four weeks, 24-7, without a change and without the same case.

01:07:12.758 --> 01:07:18.638
There are podcasts, there are YouTube channels, there are however many Netflix,

01:07:18.878 --> 01:07:26.318
Hulu, ID Discovery, all have a true crime content creator. It's a multi-billion dollar industry.

01:07:26.738 --> 01:07:32.818
And I think that that has started to very much desensitize us to homicide.

01:07:32.818 --> 01:07:36.578
Side, it's also made us forget that the victims involved are people,

01:07:36.918 --> 01:07:38.278
not characters in a story.

01:07:38.638 --> 01:07:42.238
And we go to an event called CrimeCon every year,

01:07:42.518 --> 01:07:48.438
which is about, I think this year they had 9,000 attendees who are just obsessed

01:07:48.438 --> 01:07:52.078
with true crime, and they want to meet the victims' families,

01:07:52.158 --> 01:07:54.638
and they want to meet the victims. And in a lot of ways, that's great.

01:07:55.398 --> 01:07:59.878
But we've noticed that there's, I almost want to call it a veil,

01:08:00.098 --> 01:08:04.438
where people view these very real people they're meeting, like they're famous

01:08:04.438 --> 01:08:09.338
actors or characters in a story and not that they've lived out the worst day of their life.

01:08:09.838 --> 01:08:13.738
So when you participate in something like that, how do you, how do you.

01:08:14.531 --> 01:08:19.731
How do you do you do? Do you participate to kind of get people to drop that

01:08:19.731 --> 01:08:25.391
veil or are you there on behalf of particular clients? How does that work?

01:08:25.911 --> 01:08:30.911
So we don't have particular clients. We are there to try to make sure that people

01:08:30.911 --> 01:08:35.871
are consuming true crime ethically and are also producing true crime ethically.

01:08:36.091 --> 01:08:39.411
So we've released several guides in this and a lot of it.

01:08:39.571 --> 01:08:43.291
So when we go, we have a booth and a table where people come and talk to us.

01:08:43.291 --> 01:08:47.291
But the producers of CrimeCon have actually been quite lovely to work with,

01:08:47.471 --> 01:08:51.851
and they always give me a few sessions to talk about true crime ethics.

01:08:52.211 --> 01:08:59.871
And so we try to emphasize that you should not be consuming true crime unless

01:08:59.871 --> 01:09:03.991
the victims or the victims' families themselves were actually interviewed,

01:09:03.991 --> 01:09:05.451
because if they were not interviewed,

01:09:05.691 --> 01:09:11.111
it probably means that they did not consent to their story being told again. So we push that.

01:09:11.371 --> 01:09:14.771
We also, yes, push the idea that these are people.

01:09:15.291 --> 01:09:19.031
And so you might be very curious about certain aspects of their life.

01:09:19.151 --> 01:09:22.691
But when you go to have this conversation with them, think about whether or

01:09:22.691 --> 01:09:27.311
not you'd be offended if somebody asked you that question. So we do a lot of things there.

01:09:27.471 --> 01:09:32.711
We've seen a lot of, we have a lot of hope when we go because we have seen changes

01:09:32.711 --> 01:09:37.871
and we have seen, especially content creators, gear much more closely to being

01:09:37.871 --> 01:09:40.731
ethical, but there's still always work to be done.

01:09:40.731 --> 01:09:44.191
All right. So I'll close out with this question.

01:09:44.731 --> 01:09:50.811
When it's all said and done, what would you want your legacy to be?

01:09:50.971 --> 01:09:57.091
What do you want to see accomplished with the work that you're doing being an

01:09:57.091 --> 01:09:59.131
advocate for crime victims?

01:09:59.931 --> 01:10:06.611
That's a hard one. I would like to know that I personally moved the needle,

01:10:07.071 --> 01:10:13.011
even just a little bit, on true crime cases and on true crime ethics.

01:10:13.251 --> 01:10:21.391
And I would like to know that I helped as many families individually as I could personally.

01:10:22.171 --> 01:10:26.871
It's very hard in this space, in this field, and in this position to not kind

01:10:26.871 --> 01:10:28.451
of get lost in the failures.

01:10:29.391 --> 01:10:35.431
So when people call me and I can't help them, that's devastating to me, but it happens a lot.

01:10:35.651 --> 01:10:39.391
It happens more than the victories. And so it's easy to get lost in that sometimes.

01:10:39.391 --> 01:10:41.651
It's also easy to get lost in numbers.

01:10:42.471 --> 01:10:48.591
And so my ideal would be that I personally helped impact somebody's life,

01:10:48.731 --> 01:10:51.911
whether it's on a case, whether it's getting them the help they needed,

01:10:51.911 --> 01:10:54.871
as many individuals as I possibly can.

01:10:55.491 --> 01:11:00.131
Well, Renee Williams, I want to thank you for the work that you're doing.

01:11:00.431 --> 01:11:03.231
It's an honor to talk to you about.

01:11:04.241 --> 01:11:08.001
You know, not only the work, but just talk to you as a person,

01:11:08.001 --> 01:11:13.261
because it seems as though that you're very committed to what you're doing and

01:11:13.261 --> 01:11:18.341
to leave the cushy world of corporate law to dig in and to help people,

01:11:18.621 --> 01:11:21.221
that speaks volumes about your character.

01:11:21.841 --> 01:11:25.681
If people want to support the work that you're doing, if people want to get

01:11:25.681 --> 01:11:27.681
involved, how can they do that?

01:11:27.861 --> 01:11:30.081
And how can they reach out to you? Absolutely.

01:11:30.681 --> 01:11:35.041
Victimsofcrime.org, and it's victims plural, so I'll say it again slowly.

01:11:35.301 --> 01:11:38.501
It's Victimsofcrime.org.

01:11:39.121 --> 01:11:45.341
We are also on Instagram, which is Crime Victims O-R-G, just one word.

01:11:45.801 --> 01:11:49.461
Reach out. If people want to donate, we always appreciate it.

01:11:49.521 --> 01:11:53.841
There's a donate button, but the starting place is really on our webpage to

01:11:53.841 --> 01:11:56.861
figure out where you fit in, Whether it's a volunteer opportunity,

01:11:57.181 --> 01:12:00.181
whether assistance is needed, that's always the start place.

01:12:01.041 --> 01:12:05.181
All right. Well, I know you're trying to enjoy your weekend,

01:12:05.181 --> 01:12:06.941
so I'm going to let you go.

01:12:07.061 --> 01:12:11.921
But I greatly appreciate you coming on and talking about the work that you're

01:12:11.921 --> 01:12:13.901
doing. Absolutely. I appreciate your time.

01:12:14.421 --> 01:12:23.261
All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side. We'll be right back.

01:12:19.600 --> 01:12:37.840
Music.

01:12:35.281 --> 01:12:41.481
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Joan Garry.

01:12:41.861 --> 01:12:47.161
Joan Garry is an internationally recognized champion for the nonprofit sector

01:12:47.161 --> 01:12:53.301
and a highly sought after executive coach for CEOs of some of the nation's largest organizations.

01:12:53.301 --> 01:12:58.201
An author, blogger, and founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab,

01:12:58.841 --> 01:13:03.741
Joan has helped hundreds of thousands of nonprofit board and staff leaders become

01:13:03.741 --> 01:13:10.821
five-star managers, communicators, and the inspiring ambassadors their organization need and deserve.

01:13:11.221 --> 01:13:16.001
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

01:13:16.001 --> 01:13:19.481
on this podcast, Joan Garry.

01:13:22.960 --> 01:13:32.720
Music.

01:13:32.662 --> 01:13:37.762
How are you doing? You doing good? I am. I'm good. I'm good.

01:13:38.582 --> 01:13:43.882
The world is a little not so good, but we try to tackle, you know,

01:13:44.002 --> 01:13:46.942
one day at a time and try to do one good thing at a time.

01:13:47.102 --> 01:13:50.462
And it kind of it's a pretty good antidote.

01:13:50.802 --> 01:13:52.962
Yeah, well, it eventually will add up.

01:13:53.562 --> 01:13:57.162
But, you know, I feel that you can't do much wrong because you have the same

01:13:57.162 --> 01:14:00.542
name as my mom. So I'm sure you're going to be OK.

01:14:01.062 --> 01:14:04.622
When I was a kid, people used to say, oh, yeah, my mother's name is Joan.

01:14:04.782 --> 01:14:08.282
And my name didn't actually fit until I actually became a mother.

01:14:08.482 --> 01:14:10.422
And so now I'm somebody's mother named Joan.

01:14:12.842 --> 01:14:19.082
Yeah, that's always interesting how we grow into our names.

01:14:19.582 --> 01:14:22.822
My biggest hang up was when I was running for office.

01:14:23.582 --> 01:14:27.602
And when I was running locally, that was one thing. But when I ran statewide,

01:14:28.122 --> 01:14:30.102
people thought I was a different color.

01:14:30.582 --> 01:14:34.622
When I was, because of the way I spell my name. And so when I showed up,

01:14:34.682 --> 01:14:37.022
they was like, oh, you're black. And it was like, yeah, yeah.

01:14:39.422 --> 01:14:43.702
So I understand how names can get. I think it's good to keep people on their

01:14:43.702 --> 01:14:46.322
toes. That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

01:14:46.702 --> 01:14:50.402
So look, there's a couple of things I do to start off the podcast,

01:14:50.702 --> 01:14:52.462
the little icebreakers I do.

01:14:53.162 --> 01:14:59.602
Sure. So the first one is a quote. Being a nonprofit leader is actually a privilege

01:14:59.602 --> 01:15:01.982
and a joy. What does that quote mean to you?

01:15:02.562 --> 01:15:05.122
Well, first of all, I think it's my quote, right? That's correct.

01:15:05.642 --> 01:15:12.782
So what it means for me, Erik, is, and it comes a little bit from my faith, if I'm being honest.

01:15:13.062 --> 01:15:18.142
I grew up Catholic, and I actually am now a Jew by choice.

01:15:19.062 --> 01:15:24.662
And there is a phrase in Judaism called tikkun alam, which means to repair the world.

01:15:26.462 --> 01:15:33.442
And work in the nonprofit space, for me, is about repairing the world.

01:15:33.622 --> 01:15:37.442
And for Jews, that's why we're here. We're here to repair the world.

01:15:37.802 --> 01:15:45.042
And to be able to do that in a professional capacity feels like a real joy.

01:15:45.042 --> 01:15:50.662
And to serve people, to be able to advocate for them, to be able to provide

01:15:50.662 --> 01:15:58.942
them with beautiful music, to help ensure their rights, that just feels like a privilege to me.

01:15:59.082 --> 01:16:04.582
And so that's how I think about nonprofit service as both a joy and a privilege. Okay.

01:16:05.002 --> 01:16:07.882
Now, the next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions.

01:16:08.782 --> 01:16:12.642
Are there 20 of them? No, no. There's 20 of them to choose from,

01:16:12.762 --> 01:16:15.422
but you choose by giving me a number.

01:16:15.942 --> 01:16:19.582
Okay, I'm going to go with number six. Okay.

01:16:20.102 --> 01:16:26.942
What do you think was the worst or best thing the previous administration did?

01:16:28.197 --> 01:16:30.817
When I say previous, I'm talking about the Biden administration.

01:16:32.137 --> 01:16:33.737
I have to do one or the other?

01:16:34.417 --> 01:16:39.197
Yeah, well, whichever one you feel good. If you want to do both, do both. That's fine.

01:16:39.917 --> 01:16:43.677
It's an icebreaker, so maybe I can be a little flexible here.

01:16:44.497 --> 01:16:49.097
Because I ran a gay rights organization for 10 years, I can say that the Biden

01:16:49.097 --> 01:16:55.197
administration was probably one of the most LGBT friendly that made the most

01:16:55.197 --> 01:16:57.397
good things happen for the LGBT community.

01:16:57.397 --> 01:17:01.977
On the flip side, I probably won't be the first person that answers this way.

01:17:02.377 --> 01:17:07.057
I voted for Joe Biden because I saw him as a transitional president that was

01:17:07.057 --> 01:17:11.737
going to make room for new leaders. And his cabinet showed me that when he named his cabinet.

01:17:11.937 --> 01:17:15.957
I saw young, I saw diverse, I saw skilled.

01:17:16.837 --> 01:17:23.477
And I thought that his decision to run for a second term, he sort of,

01:17:23.657 --> 01:17:27.977
in my mind, broke that promise to me as a voter. separate and apart from whatever

01:17:27.977 --> 01:17:29.737
happened to him during the second administration.

01:17:30.177 --> 01:17:40.137
So I feel like he was an ideal transitional president who got us back on track after the pandemic.

01:17:40.797 --> 01:17:45.457
Brought in a bunch of new diverse leaders to serve on his cabinet and in his administration.

01:17:45.757 --> 01:17:50.777
And that was his job to put us back on our feet and pass the baton to a new generation.

01:17:51.417 --> 01:17:57.777
Yeah. So you mentioned your work And for the listening audience, Ms.

01:17:57.917 --> 01:18:01.877
Gary was the leader, the executive director of GLAAD for 10 years,

01:18:02.057 --> 01:18:06.817
which is one of the most preeminent LGBTQ organizations in the country.

01:18:07.477 --> 01:18:12.337
How did you start your journey into the nonprofit sector? Because GLAAD is a

01:18:12.337 --> 01:18:15.197
nonprofit, but you were doing other work before then.

01:18:15.337 --> 01:18:20.357
So how did you get into nonprofit work? So, I bet when you ask questions like

01:18:20.357 --> 01:18:28.717
this, you get the same sort of conceptual response, which is that career paths are very rarely linear,

01:18:29.017 --> 01:18:31.457
right? And mine certainly was not.

01:18:32.037 --> 01:18:35.097
Prior to joining GLAAD, I was a successful media executive.

01:18:35.397 --> 01:18:40.137
I was part of the management team that launched MTV, and I worked at Showtime for many years.

01:18:40.137 --> 01:18:43.177
But then like many many people out

01:18:43.177 --> 01:18:46.397
there something remarkable happened to me it became

01:18:46.397 --> 01:18:49.197
a parent and fit my name

01:18:49.197 --> 01:18:52.157
joan and and i actually

01:18:52.157 --> 01:18:56.537
believe that the moment you become a parent you actually become an advocate

01:18:56.537 --> 01:19:01.697
advocating for them every step of the way and i think this was especially true

01:19:01.697 --> 01:19:07.437
for same-sex couples and was especially true in a pre-marriage equality world

01:19:07.437 --> 01:19:10.817
you want to do what you can to ensure the world treats your kids well.

01:19:11.657 --> 01:19:17.897
And without marriage equality, our kids were not legally connected to me.

01:19:18.257 --> 01:19:22.237
Because although we planned our kids together, my wife did all the birthing,

01:19:22.437 --> 01:19:24.697
I did all the catching. I got the easier job.

01:19:26.442 --> 01:19:31.302
But I was a legal stranger. And so as a result, we filed, you know,

01:19:31.362 --> 01:19:33.162
they say the personal is political.

01:19:33.362 --> 01:19:42.002
I filed a personal lawsuit and won a case to become the first woman in the state

01:19:42.002 --> 01:19:45.882
of New Jersey to legally adopt my partner's biological kids.

01:19:45.882 --> 01:19:50.262
Or as I like to say, to adopt my own children.

01:19:50.862 --> 01:19:55.202
And our kids became the first kids in the state of New Jersey to legally have

01:19:55.202 --> 01:19:56.822
two moms, whether they liked it or not.

01:19:58.542 --> 01:20:05.322
And this was a, maybe call it a cliched, pivotal moment that one person can make a difference.

01:20:05.822 --> 01:20:13.262
I saw it on the headlines of the New York Times and the Bergen Record and all these newspapers.

01:20:13.262 --> 01:20:16.102
And here I was thinking I had done something to protect my family.

01:20:16.102 --> 01:20:20.642
When, in fact, what I had done was thrown a pebble in the pond that was going

01:20:20.642 --> 01:20:23.882
to make it possible for many, many families to be protected.

01:20:24.302 --> 01:20:32.202
And it really was a kind of catalyst or kindling for me to ignite my interest

01:20:32.202 --> 01:20:37.802
in crossing the bridge from the for-profit sector to the non-profit sector.

01:20:37.802 --> 01:20:44.582
And because GLAAD is an organization that works with and through the media to

01:20:44.582 --> 01:20:48.282
tell the lives of LGBT families fairly and accurately,

01:20:48.282 --> 01:20:52.462
I felt like from the private sector, I brought some really interesting expertise

01:20:52.462 --> 01:20:58.382
and I got the opportunity to be what I like to refer to as a professional a lesbian.

01:21:00.442 --> 01:21:06.742
Well, I, you know, when you said that about becoming a parent,

01:21:06.742 --> 01:21:11.242
I think it was a little different for me. I was always an activist.

01:21:11.562 --> 01:21:15.742
Well, I was always an activist and then I became elected.

01:21:16.182 --> 01:21:20.402
So, so once, once I, I became a parent.

01:21:21.149 --> 01:21:25.629
Once I was elected. I mean, well, that's not exactly true.

01:21:25.809 --> 01:21:31.449
I was, I had, I inherited two boys through the marriage, but it was like to

01:21:31.449 --> 01:21:35.349
have my own biological child. That was when I was elected.

01:21:35.789 --> 01:21:42.009
And so I think what it did do though, was it made it more real. Right.

01:21:42.629 --> 01:21:46.769
And it's like, you know, so when I said I'm fighting for our children,

01:21:46.769 --> 01:21:51.509
it was like, oh yeah, yeah, I've got you. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You are. Yeah.

01:21:51.809 --> 01:21:56.029
So, I mean, I think, but I get what you're saying, because a lot of people,

01:21:56.029 --> 01:21:58.469
you know, have that experience.

01:21:58.709 --> 01:22:02.309
It's like life hits them real when it's like there's another generation.

01:22:02.429 --> 01:22:05.669
As one comedian likes to say, I've created another person.

01:22:06.069 --> 01:22:11.029
And so now I've got to take things a little different. I also think,

01:22:11.329 --> 01:22:17.849
too, real quick that, you know, when I was at Showtime, we launched a pay-per-view business there.

01:22:18.209 --> 01:22:21.009
And during the end of my tenure there,

01:22:21.149 --> 01:22:27.069
I was managing the joint venture between Showtime and Don King Productions and

01:22:27.069 --> 01:22:33.049
spent far too much time at the MGM Grand Hotel in Las Vegas watching fights,

01:22:33.089 --> 01:22:34.549
which was kind of like not my jam.

01:22:34.549 --> 01:22:38.709
And there also comes a point in your own career where you think to yourself,

01:22:39.009 --> 01:22:44.489
I have really interesting skills and expertise, and I really could put them to better use.

01:22:44.749 --> 01:22:48.129
And so I think it was those things melding together.

01:22:48.549 --> 01:22:52.209
Yeah, I got you. Why are nonprofits messy?

01:22:53.429 --> 01:22:56.509
So that is the name of my podcast, Nonprofits are Messy.

01:22:57.149 --> 01:23:03.769
And I don't mean it as a pejorative. What I mean is that when I came into the

01:23:03.769 --> 01:23:05.729
field, I was an executive director.

01:23:05.949 --> 01:23:10.189
I was supposedly in charge. I reported to a board.

01:23:10.389 --> 01:23:14.989
So I reported to a bunch of volunteers who had never, most of whom had never had my job, right?

01:23:15.069 --> 01:23:18.689
In corporate America, you usually get promoted and you have the job your boss

01:23:18.689 --> 01:23:22.569
had or something like that, right? So I'm reporting to a bunch of volunteers.

01:23:23.669 --> 01:23:30.249
I am beholden to a vast number of stakeholders in a very different way.

01:23:30.449 --> 01:23:33.069
And I don't think of it as hierarchical.

01:23:33.289 --> 01:23:36.429
I think of it as the sort of the power coming from all around you,

01:23:36.549 --> 01:23:41.269
from your board, your volunteers, your donors, your staff, and that you are

01:23:41.269 --> 01:23:44.349
sort of the conductor, the centerpiece.

01:23:44.349 --> 01:23:52.269
And because of all of those different voices, it gets particularly messy when,

01:23:52.937 --> 01:23:58.717
Because you actually have to honor those voices because they are interested stakeholders.

01:23:58.737 --> 01:24:03.257
And you know this, some of this as an elected, you have to honor these while

01:24:03.257 --> 01:24:13.397
also being true to the sort of clear compass and direction that your mission sets you on.

01:24:13.397 --> 01:24:20.197
And so you have to be sort of really true to that while incorporating the voices

01:24:20.197 --> 01:24:25.717
and feelings and opinions of the folks you represent,

01:24:25.717 --> 01:24:31.177
the folks who have invested in your organization, and the people who provide

01:24:31.177 --> 01:24:34.557
oversight to your organization who usually have day jobs.

01:24:34.957 --> 01:24:41.437
Right. No, it's a very odd model, but I will just say that I think that there

01:24:41.437 --> 01:24:48.237
are treasures in that mess if you are a good facilitator conductor and you can

01:24:48.237 --> 01:24:52.717
really find them and decisions can be richer for the result.

01:24:53.397 --> 01:24:58.037
Well, as someone who has been a chairman of a board, a nonprofit board,

01:24:58.297 --> 01:25:04.957
and as an executive director of a nonprofit, I can relate on both sides of what you're saying.

01:25:05.877 --> 01:25:11.417
And, you know, coming in and saying, OK, well, we want to do this and anybody got ideas.

01:25:11.497 --> 01:25:15.517
And, you know, and then as executive director, it's like, I got to walk these

01:25:15.517 --> 01:25:16.837
people through all this stuff.

01:25:16.997 --> 01:25:19.917
OK, let's see if they can catch on and all that stuff.

01:25:19.917 --> 01:25:23.717
And a lot of times you get frustrated as if you're on the ED side,

01:25:23.897 --> 01:25:27.757
because it's like, but they're not catching the vision and all that stuff.

01:25:27.757 --> 01:25:32.457
And it's like, okay, well, if this is what they want, then we got to do it that way.

01:25:32.617 --> 01:25:38.617
And then as a chair, you're trying to hurt all the cats in, including the executive

01:25:38.617 --> 01:25:41.377
director to make sure that everybody's got the same vision.

01:25:41.577 --> 01:25:46.657
So I relate when, when I saw that that was the name of your podcast,

01:25:46.657 --> 01:25:50.297
I totally related right away. I didn't even have to listen to any of it.

01:25:50.437 --> 01:25:52.537
I knew exactly where you were going with that.

01:25:53.257 --> 01:25:57.757
All right. So if you had to give a State of the Union type address concerning

01:25:57.757 --> 01:26:02.797
nonprofits in the United States, what would that sound like?

01:26:03.377 --> 01:26:08.837
Oh, my gosh. That is like the best question I have ever been asked. Yes.

01:26:09.491 --> 01:26:13.491
And you provided that to me ahead of time, and I really appreciate it because

01:26:13.491 --> 01:26:15.791
I wouldn't have wanted to answer it on the fly.

01:26:17.311 --> 01:26:20.911
So I think it would go something along these lines.

01:26:21.291 --> 01:26:27.351
Erik, I want you to imagine taking a stroll through your town or your city and

01:26:27.351 --> 01:26:29.771
imagine it without a museum or a chorus.

01:26:31.411 --> 01:26:37.111
Why? Synagogue, a hospital, college, a food pantry, an animal rescue organization

01:26:37.111 --> 01:26:40.271
or a chamber of commerce. And you could just add to that list.

01:26:40.531 --> 01:26:42.771
It would be really hard to imagine.

01:26:43.191 --> 01:26:50.591
And it is these vital organizations that, in my mind, turn towns into communities,

01:26:51.131 --> 01:26:53.611
that turn residents into neighbors.

01:26:53.611 --> 01:27:00.711
And I see the nonprofit sector as an engine of hope and an engine that drives our common humanity.

01:27:01.191 --> 01:27:05.111
1.9 million of these organizations are here in the United States alone,

01:27:05.111 --> 01:27:11.771
and well over 60 million people engage with nonprofits every single year.

01:27:11.971 --> 01:27:14.771
It's a huge driver of our economy and our workforce.

01:27:15.571 --> 01:27:20.951
Nonprofits contribute a million four to the economy, and it is the third largest

01:27:20.951 --> 01:27:23.791
driver of our workforce behind retail food and service.

01:27:24.251 --> 01:27:29.271
So 12.7 million people work in nonprofit sector every year.

01:27:29.611 --> 01:27:35.971
And I believe that precious few people know those statistics or think of the

01:27:35.971 --> 01:27:39.171
nonprofit sector in this way. I think it flies under the radar.

01:27:39.451 --> 01:27:43.951
It's taken for granted. And in this moment that we are in,

01:27:44.171 --> 01:27:54.351
that is very risky indeed So I think that we have a sector that is pointing

01:27:54.351 --> 01:27:56.731
us in the direction of a civil society.

01:27:57.609 --> 01:28:03.209
So, based on what you just said and the importance of nonprofits,

01:28:03.709 --> 01:28:09.889
what has been the immediate impact of budgets and policy decisions made by the

01:28:09.889 --> 01:28:12.089
Trump administration concerning nonprofits?

01:28:12.529 --> 01:28:18.349
So, I would look at both the sort of tactical and the intangible.

01:28:18.529 --> 01:28:26.749
So, the Trump administration has targeted the nonprofit sector in a way that makes my head spin.

01:28:26.749 --> 01:28:30.569
Abuse of tax-exempt status, targeting

01:28:30.569 --> 01:28:34.709
advocacy groups he believes are not aligned with his own positions.

01:28:35.089 --> 01:28:39.949
There are non-profits reeling from catastrophic loss of federal funding,

01:28:39.949 --> 01:28:47.789
and the kind of impact that these cuts have had, I believe,

01:28:48.149 --> 01:28:54.249
are impacting lives, right? You think about USAID.

01:28:54.609 --> 01:29:02.109
You think about so many places where federal funding has been taken away,

01:29:02.109 --> 01:29:05.329
and I think that real people will die on his watch.

01:29:05.969 --> 01:29:10.669
The intangible is fear that advocacy organizations,

01:29:11.009 --> 01:29:17.049
whether particularly organizations that advocate for marginalized communities,

01:29:17.049 --> 01:29:20.789
right people of color immigrants the

01:29:20.789 --> 01:29:24.529
unhoused lgbt folks they are

01:29:24.529 --> 01:29:28.749
living in a new world where they are in the crosshairs and

01:29:28.749 --> 01:29:31.509
like many of these organizations Erik have

01:29:31.509 --> 01:29:37.349
sadly backed off visible commitments to diversity and in what i have found particularly

01:29:37.349 --> 01:29:41.909
terrifying many have removed their staff and board members names from their

01:29:41.909 --> 01:29:49.049
websites for one simple reason which is personal safety and when you think about

01:29:49.049 --> 01:29:51.449
what i just said in my state of the union address.

01:29:52.389 --> 01:29:56.329
Right and you think about this not only

01:29:56.329 --> 01:29:59.129
does it not make any sense but it

01:29:59.129 --> 01:30:04.309
is sucking the humanity out of the world we live in he the the work that's being

01:30:04.309 --> 01:30:13.249
done risks risks so many of what many of the things that make us human and pits

01:30:13.249 --> 01:30:16.549
us against each other, gives us, gives us a,

01:30:17.149 --> 01:30:20.549
makes us, causes us to live in some real fear.

01:30:21.029 --> 01:30:26.989
And we are not having the ability to help our neighbors the way the nonprofit

01:30:26.989 --> 01:30:29.829
sector was built to do. Yeah.

01:30:30.129 --> 01:30:33.909
And you touched on one of the things, you know, cause they're talking about

01:30:33.909 --> 01:30:38.649
like in the tax code about changing the definition of the exempt status.

01:30:39.469 --> 01:30:45.969
You know, weaponizing the IRS actually to go after nonprofits and all that kind

01:30:45.969 --> 01:30:47.369
of stuff. I think that that,

01:30:48.112 --> 01:30:52.732
you know, you know, in the overall scheme of what he's doing,

01:30:52.752 --> 01:30:56.412
what Stephen Miller and all these other guys are trying to do is,

01:30:56.412 --> 01:30:58.652
is to try to centralize power.

01:30:59.132 --> 01:31:04.772
And I think to target nonprofits, you know, the ones that you don't like,

01:31:04.872 --> 01:31:09.692
because, you know, there's nonprofits out there that support what the president's doing.

01:31:10.412 --> 01:31:17.192
And, and, you know, but the, the, the overall impact of all of that stuff is going to,

01:31:17.552 --> 01:31:22.552
to all the numbers that you just stated, I just think that that meddling with

01:31:22.552 --> 01:31:27.132
the tax code, if you want to meddle with the tax code from a politician's perspective,

01:31:27.532 --> 01:31:31.112
I say, let's get rid of the exemptions for wealthy people.

01:31:31.412 --> 01:31:33.472
Let's simplify the language.

01:31:33.912 --> 01:31:41.232
Let's have one form that everybody can fill out instead of 18 different ones, stuff like that.

01:31:41.232 --> 01:31:43.992
But when you're messing with people who are trying to fulfill,

01:31:44.272 --> 01:31:50.692
as you say, in your faith tradition, in my faith tradition, to help others and

01:31:50.692 --> 01:31:54.812
to repair the world, I think those are the folks that you need to not mess with.

01:31:54.952 --> 01:31:57.792
I think those are the folks you need to protect. Yeah.

01:31:58.112 --> 01:32:04.232
And it's no question that, you know, when I work, I'm an executive coach for CEOs.

01:32:04.232 --> 01:32:10.172
I also run a membership site for board and staff leaders of small nonprofits,

01:32:10.572 --> 01:32:16.912
a million dollars or less, and about 70% of nonprofits have budgets under a million bucks. Right.

01:32:16.992 --> 01:32:21.152
And so they're small and they're going to get they're going to get all wound

01:32:21.152 --> 01:32:24.932
up in the IRS coming after them for audits.

01:32:25.532 --> 01:32:29.332
And it's going to take them off their game. What what's what's the object of

01:32:29.332 --> 01:32:31.092
the game? The object of the game is to help people.

01:32:31.272 --> 01:32:35.432
And if they're all wound up and doing audits and, you know, small organizations

01:32:35.432 --> 01:32:39.192
are not always staffed well to get.

01:32:39.713 --> 01:32:43.633
To be neat and tidy and shiny. They're a little messy, you know?

01:32:44.293 --> 01:32:48.233
And I just think it's just going to divert them from the tasks at hand.

01:32:48.613 --> 01:32:53.433
Yeah. Yeah. The 990 forms are hard enough as they is. You don't need to add any more drama to it.

01:32:56.213 --> 01:33:00.473
What are the challenges facing nonprofits post-COVID?

01:33:00.893 --> 01:33:04.853
Another really interesting question, because I think that Michael Hyatt has

01:33:04.853 --> 01:33:08.673
this saying that says you have to look at what challenging times make possible.

01:33:09.053 --> 01:33:18.053
And I think that during COVID, nonprofits were, they were compelled to abandon business as usual.

01:33:18.653 --> 01:33:22.273
And frankly, business as usual wasn't everything. It was cracked up to be.

01:33:22.733 --> 01:33:28.013
So many, so many clients who were disproportionately reliant on gala revenue

01:33:28.013 --> 01:33:29.513
when it went out the window, right?

01:33:29.713 --> 01:33:35.753
And they had to try different things. They had to take some chances, pilot some new things.

01:33:36.253 --> 01:33:39.993
And I think that ultimately, I think that was very good for the sector and for

01:33:39.993 --> 01:33:41.993
staff leaders to be thinking that way.

01:33:42.493 --> 01:33:49.193
I had hoped that it would stick after COVID and that we'd see more of that stay there.

01:33:49.473 --> 01:33:53.673
I think that boards of directors tend to be risk averse and they wanted to go

01:33:53.673 --> 01:33:57.533
back to business as usual. And I think that that has hampered us as we have

01:33:57.533 --> 01:34:02.873
moved into this new administration because we need to continue to do that.

01:34:03.033 --> 01:34:07.873
I think that the sector needs to be innovative, needs to try new things,

01:34:08.113 --> 01:34:15.613
and that boards need to think of their jobs as more expansive and not just as

01:34:15.613 --> 01:34:17.893
a group of people to make sure that nothing goes wrong.

01:34:17.893 --> 01:34:23.333
Because by the way, on January 20th of this year, a lot of things went wrong.

01:34:23.633 --> 01:34:26.993
And it was out of the board's hands and out of the staff's hands.

01:34:27.153 --> 01:34:33.113
And it's what you do in these moments of adversity that demonstrate real leadership.

01:34:33.793 --> 01:34:41.053
And I think we should be looking at, organizations should be looking at scenario planning.

01:34:41.233 --> 01:34:43.673
They should be looking at diversifying their revenue streams.

01:34:44.133 --> 01:34:47.293
They should be, all of the things they should have been doing all along.

01:34:47.933 --> 01:34:51.893
They should be looking at their programs And saying should I do a couple fewer

01:34:51.893 --> 01:34:58.213
programs But do them deeper Should I merge with another organization Should

01:34:58.213 --> 01:35:02.333
I become a program of another organization Would it make sense for us to.

01:35:03.133 --> 01:35:07.673
Acquire this organization I think we can honestly Do,

01:35:08.350 --> 01:35:12.830
This is a really dark time. But as what Eleanor Roosevelt says,

01:35:13.010 --> 01:35:16.070
I'd rather light one candle than curse the darkness.

01:35:16.590 --> 01:35:21.070
And I think there's some opportunity here for the, as I did with COVID for the

01:35:21.070 --> 01:35:26.170
nonprofit sector to, to strengthen itself as a result of this adversity.

01:35:26.730 --> 01:35:30.590
Let me ask you this question. This is kind of off, off of the cuff real quick,

01:35:30.750 --> 01:35:35.890
but we were talking about diversifying a lot of, a lot of the nonprofits when

01:35:35.890 --> 01:35:38.030
they work and try to get grants and stuff,

01:35:38.450 --> 01:35:42.370
You know, we're always told, well, you need to have some board members that's

01:35:42.370 --> 01:35:43.470
that's writing, you know,

01:35:43.970 --> 01:35:46.190
individually writing checks and all that stuff.

01:35:46.570 --> 01:35:49.910
Yeah. And some of the nonprofits that you talked about that you work with that

01:35:49.910 --> 01:35:53.210
are a million dollars or less, they don't really have those kind of people.

01:35:53.330 --> 01:35:59.050
They have people that really want to do the work and really feel a need for that to happen.

01:35:59.150 --> 01:36:03.010
But they're not necessarily people that could write big checks.

01:36:03.170 --> 01:36:06.070
It's like you can get one or two on the board. That's great.

01:36:06.210 --> 01:36:11.350
But most of the time you can't. So how do you how do you navigate with folks

01:36:11.350 --> 01:36:14.610
that have that dilemma that is like, well, we got to get some people to write

01:36:14.610 --> 01:36:15.730
checks so we can get grant?

01:36:16.270 --> 01:36:22.230
Well, I I don't know that that's what funders are what they're looking for.

01:36:22.230 --> 01:36:24.930
They're looking for so i don't

01:36:24.930 --> 01:36:27.870
want to speak for all foundations but i have

01:36:27.870 --> 01:36:31.490
a philosophy about about boards and fundraising which

01:36:31.490 --> 01:36:34.330
is that i actually i actually think of board

01:36:34.330 --> 01:36:38.410
members as the most credible storytellers

01:36:38.410 --> 01:36:44.150
in your organization and that we do not do enough of building a culture of storytelling

01:36:44.150 --> 01:36:50.310
in our organization so that you Erik as a board member are as credible a messenger

01:36:50.310 --> 01:36:56.890
in telling a really amazing story about the work of the organization I run as I am.

01:36:57.835 --> 01:37:04.515
And that your job as a board member is to be armed with a couple of really great

01:37:04.515 --> 01:37:10.695
stories and to invite as many people to come closer to the work as possible.

01:37:10.995 --> 01:37:16.015
Now, whether you close the deal, whether you give the dollars or whether I do, it doesn't matter.

01:37:16.355 --> 01:37:20.655
I think what we're trying to do is build sort of a, if you will,

01:37:21.335 --> 01:37:23.375
sort of an army of the engaged.

01:37:23.375 --> 01:37:28.315
The more people who know about your organization, the more people who come closer,

01:37:28.675 --> 01:37:31.595
the more money you're going to raise. I mean, think about volunteers.

01:37:32.115 --> 01:37:36.515
Volunteers are the bottom of that fundraising pyramid. They are disproportionately

01:37:36.515 --> 01:37:41.635
likely to give money than almost any other group within a nonprofit organization.

01:37:42.135 --> 01:37:47.315
So I think I would rather be able to go to a funder and say that I,

01:37:47.475 --> 01:37:51.495
as a staff leader, had started a stewardship program and that everybody on my

01:37:51.495 --> 01:37:57.875
board was to cultivate a relationship with three prospective or current donors.

01:37:58.255 --> 01:38:02.395
And at the end of the year, because of that relationship, they either renewed

01:38:02.395 --> 01:38:03.855
or upgraded those donors.

01:38:04.155 --> 01:38:07.875
So it's not just about whether you can give. And in fact, I don't think it's

01:38:07.875 --> 01:38:09.995
always about how much you give.

01:38:10.195 --> 01:38:13.995
It's about how vocal and visible an ambassador are you?

01:38:14.455 --> 01:38:19.095
How much of a relationship builder are you? And can bring lots more people closer

01:38:19.095 --> 01:38:23.275
to the organization. And I'd rather be measured by that as a board of directors

01:38:23.275 --> 01:38:27.755
than whether or not I have six or seven people who can write big fat checks.

01:38:27.855 --> 01:38:34.955
Because if I have that, I am probably lacking in community leaders,

01:38:35.315 --> 01:38:40.555
people with lived experience in the field, an academic, a PR person,

01:38:40.615 --> 01:38:42.715
a digital marketing person, right?

01:38:42.855 --> 01:38:47.275
If I gauge who should be on my board simply by who can write a big fat check,

01:38:47.495 --> 01:38:49.575
I think I'm in trouble. Yeah.

01:38:50.015 --> 01:38:54.295
So one guest kind of started this tradition and I've been keeping it going.

01:38:54.675 --> 01:38:57.455
And that's when somebody makes a point that's really strong.

01:38:57.455 --> 01:39:00.915
I usually say, say that louder so the people in the back can hear it. Right.

01:39:01.555 --> 01:39:04.695
I think that I think that's one of those points that you just made.

01:39:05.255 --> 01:39:10.335
Yeah. I mean, yeah. Is there a segment of the American population or a particular

01:39:10.335 --> 01:39:14.095
issue that you would like to see more nonprofit activity occur in?

01:39:15.839 --> 01:39:19.759
Well, I don't know if I want to see more activity,

01:39:19.759 --> 01:39:26.419
but I feel like those issues that

01:39:26.419 --> 01:39:31.279
have been targeted by our current administration need all hands on deck.

01:39:31.699 --> 01:39:36.959
And I think that they are in a place where they're going to be vulnerable and struggling.

01:39:36.959 --> 01:39:44.659
And so I would like to see more people engage as volunteers and donors,

01:39:45.099 --> 01:39:49.419
particularly in advocacy organizations for marginalized communities.

01:39:49.699 --> 01:39:54.019
Because, you know, as I will not surprise you, I don't think,

01:39:54.099 --> 01:39:58.719
Erik, you know, if I am an organization that is advocating for immigrants,

01:39:59.239 --> 01:40:04.659
my staff is probably has quite a number of people who have that lived experience.

01:40:04.659 --> 01:40:07.719
That means there's a lot of trauma on my staff

01:40:07.719 --> 01:40:11.219
and that there's a lot of just trauma

01:40:11.219 --> 01:40:14.479
in the organization writ large and so i think i

01:40:14.479 --> 01:40:19.559
would like to see a deeper investment in in those organizations that are going

01:40:19.559 --> 01:40:25.939
to be most most in the crosshairs and we all and i think we could probably list

01:40:25.939 --> 01:40:32.099
them right now but i would say those that are really advocating for marginalized communities.

01:40:32.739 --> 01:40:38.439
Whether that's an advocacy organization or, you know, I had a client who works

01:40:38.439 --> 01:40:42.139
at the intersection of the disability community, the deaf community,

01:40:42.319 --> 01:40:43.639
and the criminal justice community.

01:40:44.059 --> 01:40:47.979
She lost 70% of her funding overnight, right?

01:40:48.159 --> 01:40:54.039
These folks, we need to be out there working for them and with them to make

01:40:54.039 --> 01:40:55.259
sure they can continue to do

01:40:55.259 --> 01:40:59.439
their work and that we don't risk actually losing them altogether. Yeah.

01:41:00.159 --> 01:41:04.499
All right. So let me close out with this question. Go. What advice would you

01:41:04.499 --> 01:41:09.619
give someone who wants to start a nonprofit organization in this moment in time?

01:41:10.591 --> 01:41:16.691
I think the advice that I would give them is not drastically different from

01:41:16.691 --> 01:41:19.351
advice I might have given them five years ago.

01:41:19.951 --> 01:41:25.111
And I think the first thing I would say is that if you want to start a nonprofit,

01:41:25.111 --> 01:41:26.471
you need to do your homework.

01:41:27.091 --> 01:41:32.031
Just because you have a good idea doesn't mean it should become an organization.

01:41:32.611 --> 01:41:38.991
Is the work being done elsewhere? Could your idea be a program at an existing organization?

01:41:38.991 --> 01:41:46.231
You know, there might be 1.9 million nonprofits, but maybe there's duplication

01:41:46.231 --> 01:41:50.591
we could really be avoiding, and therefore less money going towards overhead

01:41:50.591 --> 01:41:52.631
for multiple organizations,

01:41:53.291 --> 01:41:57.371
deeper overhead investment in fewer organizations and in programs.

01:41:57.371 --> 01:42:04.331
The second piece of advice I would give is what I would say build a very passionate posse of people.

01:42:04.811 --> 01:42:09.971
One of the biggest problems I see with founders who start nonprofits is they

01:42:09.971 --> 01:42:15.151
get their brother, sister, next-door neighbor to be one of the three names on

01:42:15.151 --> 01:42:17.471
the 501c3 app as their board.

01:42:17.831 --> 01:42:20.651
And they end up staying on their board.

01:42:21.411 --> 01:42:27.411
And I would say, before you fill out that 501c3 app, pull together a really

01:42:27.411 --> 01:42:32.051
interesting, diverse group of people with both skills and lived experience,

01:42:32.391 --> 01:42:34.871
and brainstorm and plan.

01:42:35.651 --> 01:42:40.391
Fine-tune this mission and the work that you will do that will make it unique

01:42:40.391 --> 01:42:43.531
and distinctive, and then fill out your 501c3 app.

01:42:43.691 --> 01:42:46.051
Don't start that after you get the status.

01:42:46.511 --> 01:42:52.211
And then the third one I would say, and I used to say it all the time is fasten

01:42:52.211 --> 01:42:56.311
your seatbelt now I would say fasten your seatbelt a lot tighter.

01:42:57.278 --> 01:43:02.898
Yeah. Yeah. Because it's, it's, it's, this is, we're in interesting times.

01:43:03.518 --> 01:43:10.578
And so, but, you know, a lot of what you just said has been a practical approach

01:43:10.578 --> 01:43:13.718
for many years in dealing with this work.

01:43:13.718 --> 01:43:21.658
So, Joan Gary, I'm really, really glad that you have brought this passion to

01:43:21.658 --> 01:43:27.458
the nonprofit sector to be a coach, to be a guide for folks to succeed in it.

01:43:28.158 --> 01:43:32.258
I'm glad, too. I get as much as I give, Eric.

01:43:33.118 --> 01:43:38.118
Well, and that's good to know. I was telling somebody that I was going to have

01:43:38.118 --> 01:43:41.738
you on the show, and they were, like, really, really excited.

01:43:42.698 --> 01:43:47.158
Oh, good. Can I get their name and address? Yeah, yeah. I'll get it to you. I'll get it to you.

01:43:48.118 --> 01:43:52.858
But, you know, they said they'd seen you speak before. They hadn't formally

01:43:52.858 --> 01:43:55.478
met you, but they were really, really excited.

01:43:55.498 --> 01:43:58.378
And so I understand why.

01:43:58.598 --> 01:44:01.178
So I greatly appreciate you taking the time.

01:44:01.678 --> 01:44:05.758
How can people get in touch with you? How can people get in touch with the organization?

01:44:06.538 --> 01:44:11.458
Oh, thank you. So pretty much all things Joan at joangarry.com.

01:44:11.458 --> 01:44:20.158
And it's G-A-R-R-Y.com and our membership site, which is 6,000 strong board

01:44:20.158 --> 01:44:22.078
and staff leaders from around the world.

01:44:22.478 --> 01:44:28.738
And getting content as well as moral support and community, you can find at

01:44:28.738 --> 01:44:31.278
nonprofitleadershiplab.com.

01:44:31.498 --> 01:44:35.358
All right. Well, Joan, thank you so much for coming on again.

01:44:35.358 --> 01:44:38.058
And I greatly appreciate your time.

01:44:38.298 --> 01:44:43.958
My pleasure. And thank you for asking me and bringing some really interesting

01:44:43.958 --> 01:44:46.778
voices into the ether. Yes, ma'am.

01:44:47.238 --> 01:44:49.338
All right, guys, and we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:44:51.760 --> 01:45:02.160
Music.

01:45:01.058 --> 01:45:06.158
All right, and we are back. So I want to thank Mikel Bolden,

01:45:06.738 --> 01:45:11.758
Renee Williams, and Joan Garry for coming on the show.

01:45:12.158 --> 01:45:18.938
Like I always say, man, I know y'all probably think it's cliche and I'm just

01:45:18.938 --> 01:45:22.958
being deferential and all that stuff,

01:45:22.958 --> 01:45:30.858
but you just don't know the joy I have in being able to talk to these incredible

01:45:30.858 --> 01:45:33.458
human beings that are out here doing the work.

01:45:34.518 --> 01:45:41.018
And to get to converse with them a little bit, either prior to the interview

01:45:41.018 --> 01:45:42.538
or afterwards or whatever,

01:45:42.878 --> 01:45:49.738
and no matter how dynamic they are, how humble these people really are, right?

01:45:50.178 --> 01:45:56.838
And that's one of the attributes that we are so lacking.

01:45:57.980 --> 01:46:04.820
Right. In our current political discourse is the humility is understanding the

01:46:04.820 --> 01:46:06.780
gravity of what's being done.

01:46:07.120 --> 01:46:12.080
But don't, you know, let the moment get too big where they're,

01:46:12.180 --> 01:46:18.880
you know, where they allow their confidence and their their skill set to shine and still do the work.

01:46:19.080 --> 01:46:22.940
But, you know, these are not flashy people.

01:46:23.180 --> 01:46:27.500
These are not people trying to be the loudest person in the room.

01:46:27.980 --> 01:46:30.240
But they do what needs to be done.

01:46:31.020 --> 01:46:34.680
And so I just want to thank those ladies for coming on again.

01:46:35.080 --> 01:46:40.500
And we ask, you know, always I ask that people support the work that they're

01:46:40.500 --> 01:46:49.040
doing and get involved, whether it's politically, you know, financially or through volunteers, right?

01:46:49.160 --> 01:46:52.480
Just get engaged, get involved, right?

01:46:52.960 --> 01:46:57.800
So again, thank you all ladies for coming on. Now, I want to finish a thought

01:46:57.800 --> 01:47:01.940
that I was kind of going into, I guess.

01:47:03.060 --> 01:47:08.520
Last week, I was talking about something, and then I started reading a little bit.

01:47:09.140 --> 01:47:12.160
And I said, well, no, maybe I'm not going to go in that direction.

01:47:13.720 --> 01:47:19.940
It's not exactly the message I want to give. But I do want to say this real quick.

01:47:21.300 --> 01:47:26.080
And for those folks who, you know, they're like, well, you know,

01:47:26.660 --> 01:47:30.840
Erik, you come from a certain political bent, so naturally you're going to have

01:47:30.840 --> 01:47:32.300
this kind of take and all that.

01:47:33.620 --> 01:47:42.400
And there's some truth in that, right? But I think it is fair to say that where

01:47:42.400 --> 01:47:51.080
we are right now is that we are trying to navigate around insanity.

01:47:51.280 --> 01:47:57.780
And there are some people who are trying to normalize insanity.

01:47:58.400 --> 01:48:05.300
And when I say insanity, I'm not necessarily talking about clinical because I'm not a psychologist.

01:48:06.000 --> 01:48:10.640
Right? I let my good friends like Renee Carr and others do that.

01:48:11.700 --> 01:48:16.100
Mary Trump, all those folks. I let them do the psychological stuff.

01:48:16.900 --> 01:48:19.380
I'm just a common sense kind of person.

01:48:20.300 --> 01:48:25.400
And I think in this day and age, with all that we're exposed to,

01:48:25.620 --> 01:48:26.800
how we're all connected.

01:48:27.300 --> 01:48:32.520
Right? We just celebrated yet another new iPhone coming out. Right?

01:48:33.700 --> 01:48:39.480
Where you can shoot movies and you can talk to people all over the globe and

01:48:39.480 --> 01:48:44.200
you can download the internet and record speeds and all this kind of stuff. And I'm like going...

01:48:46.017 --> 01:48:50.637
We have all this technology. We have all these ways of interacting.

01:48:50.897 --> 01:48:53.157
Our cultures are so intermatched.

01:48:53.577 --> 01:49:01.537
So when I say insanity, it's like to be racist in America is insane, right?

01:49:02.297 --> 01:49:13.737
And, you know, I can't force people to be around me or I can't force people to be around me.

01:49:14.837 --> 01:49:21.837
Meaning, you know, you can't tell me I got to be in this setting or you got

01:49:21.837 --> 01:49:24.077
to accept me in this setting, right?

01:49:24.777 --> 01:49:30.837
I understand there's nuanced things where the culture kind of kicks in.

01:49:30.837 --> 01:49:39.997
But to try to build a political party in this day and age based on keeping everything

01:49:39.997 --> 01:49:47.677
separate and this false notion that one particular race is greater than every other race,

01:49:47.857 --> 01:49:54.717
and then to deny the contributions of all of the cultures that exist in the

01:49:54.717 --> 01:49:59.297
United States and just say that one culture did it all.

01:49:59.297 --> 01:50:05.257
You know, in layman's terms, you can say that's ignorant, but ignorance for

01:50:05.257 --> 01:50:07.917
no reason is insanity, right?

01:50:07.997 --> 01:50:12.777
Because there's no reason for you to not know about the contributions of black folks.

01:50:12.937 --> 01:50:17.317
There's no reason not to know the contributions of Asian Americans.

01:50:18.377 --> 01:50:24.037
There's no reason not to know the contributions of Hispanic Americans, right?

01:50:24.957 --> 01:50:28.977
None. Native Americans, the indigenous people, none.

01:50:28.977 --> 01:50:32.737
There's no reason why you can't have access to that information now,

01:50:32.737 --> 01:50:40.637
other than certain folks want to limit your access.

01:50:41.377 --> 01:50:48.297
So you want to accept trophies from somebody who's created a device and upgraded

01:50:48.297 --> 01:50:51.477
a device that the whole world can connect to.

01:50:51.637 --> 01:50:55.937
But you want to limit what information they can get on that device.

01:50:57.237 --> 01:51:04.177
That's insanity. And to use your political capital to do that, right?

01:51:04.757 --> 01:51:10.417
I just don't understand why you would do that.

01:51:10.957 --> 01:51:16.657
I don't understand what the advantage is, and I don't understand why so many

01:51:16.657 --> 01:51:18.937
Americans believe that's okay.

01:51:19.757 --> 01:51:26.237
And when I say so many, you know, I know that not everybody that voted for our

01:51:26.237 --> 01:51:28.557
current president thinks that way.

01:51:29.795 --> 01:51:35.595
But enough of y'all do. And that's too many. You know, it's like you have enough

01:51:35.595 --> 01:51:38.335
of a subculture where you can have your own networks.

01:51:38.415 --> 01:51:41.995
You can have your own podcasts. You can have your own.

01:51:44.055 --> 01:51:52.195
Movies and songs. By the way, there's literally a song about lynching people that's out.

01:51:53.235 --> 01:51:57.435
And a couple of songs about sundown towns and all that kind of stuff,

01:51:57.655 --> 01:51:59.595
right? That's too many people.

01:52:00.775 --> 01:52:10.575
It's too many. And our challenge in being optimistic but being pragmatic about

01:52:10.575 --> 01:52:14.215
it is to navigate around that, right?

01:52:14.635 --> 01:52:21.655
But we have an obligation to make sure that people understand that that is not normal.

01:52:21.815 --> 01:52:28.135
There is no way in any shape or form that that is normal.

01:52:28.135 --> 01:52:32.115
And it doesn't matter how many threats,

01:52:32.755 --> 01:52:39.375
what kind of political power is exerted, no matter how many fiery speeches and

01:52:39.375 --> 01:52:44.335
memorial services are given, the way these folks think is not normal.

01:52:44.715 --> 01:52:47.795
It's not healthy. It's not productive.

01:52:48.615 --> 01:52:55.475
But right now, they control the House, the Senate, the White House,

01:52:55.635 --> 01:52:59.415
and basically the Supreme Court. at the federal level.

01:53:00.295 --> 01:53:02.815
So we just got to fight against that.

01:53:03.835 --> 01:53:09.775
And, you know, they want us to fight violently. They want us to get weapons

01:53:09.775 --> 01:53:13.335
and go out in the streets and tear up stuff and all that stuff so they can have

01:53:13.335 --> 01:53:15.735
an excuse to shut everything down.

01:53:16.255 --> 01:53:18.435
But we've proven that we're smarter than that.

01:53:19.235 --> 01:53:23.435
You know, so we're going to fight the way that we've been fighting,

01:53:23.435 --> 01:53:27.455
the way we were taught to fight nonviolently.

01:53:28.235 --> 01:53:32.075
We'll speak with our dollar bills. We'll speak with our voices.

01:53:32.815 --> 01:53:37.595
We'll speak with our writings and our podcasts.

01:53:39.035 --> 01:53:45.155
You know, just everything that we can do. Because the bottom line is we have to resist.

01:53:46.095 --> 01:53:51.875
We have to. We have no choice. Sane people have no choice but to resist what's happening.

01:53:51.875 --> 01:54:01.755
And for those who are not morally strong enough or intelligent enough or courageous

01:54:01.755 --> 01:54:06.815
enough not to be sheep in that insane flock.

01:54:08.298 --> 01:54:11.478
You know, we just have to work around those people.

01:54:11.898 --> 01:54:17.838
If we can save some, if we can convert some back to sanity, you know,

01:54:18.398 --> 01:54:21.778
bring them back to sanity, so be it. If we can.

01:54:22.618 --> 01:54:25.878
But a lot of those people are going to have to make that decision on their own.

01:54:27.038 --> 01:54:31.598
And we got to get out of this notion in America that, you know,

01:54:32.358 --> 01:54:37.078
instant is good or that instant is even realistic.

01:54:38.018 --> 01:54:38.578
Right?

01:54:40.278 --> 01:54:46.938
The damage that has been done in eight months is going to take years to fix, right?

01:54:47.658 --> 01:54:51.678
Let me say that again. The damage has been done in eight months.

01:54:51.798 --> 01:54:53.058
It's going to take years to fix.

01:54:53.518 --> 01:54:58.418
So whoever is brought in to replace this current government,

01:54:58.418 --> 01:55:01.218
you're going to have to have some patience with that.

01:55:01.618 --> 01:55:06.398
Now, there may be some instant things like prices might go down, Right.

01:55:06.638 --> 01:55:09.958
Wages may go up. Jobs may be plentiful.

01:55:10.538 --> 01:55:17.178
But as far as trust in institutions, as far as stability in government,

01:55:17.398 --> 01:55:20.858
as far as prioritizing budgets,

01:55:21.238 --> 01:55:27.878
it's going to take some time because you've got to really purge the insanity out.

01:55:29.444 --> 01:55:32.704
And I know a lot of people, especially of younger generations,

01:55:32.924 --> 01:55:35.084
when they hear purge, they think of the movie and they think,

01:55:35.284 --> 01:55:37.964
oh, we're about to kill people. No, no, that's not how we do that.

01:55:38.844 --> 01:55:44.044
But you've got to separate the wheat from the chaff. You've got to get the quality

01:55:44.044 --> 01:55:48.984
in so the insanity can come out. It's just that simple.

01:55:50.484 --> 01:55:59.824
And, you know, if we want this nation to thrive and all of us to be a part of it,

01:56:00.204 --> 01:56:06.464
then we've got to resist what's happening and we've got to continue to battle.

01:56:06.464 --> 01:56:11.904
Now, there are people who are contrarian, right?

01:56:12.384 --> 01:56:19.404
They'll come across to some of us as resistors, but they're always going to

01:56:19.404 --> 01:56:21.264
challenge authority regardless.

01:56:22.244 --> 01:56:28.804
Doesn't matter if authority is benevolent or if authority is malevolent,

01:56:29.004 --> 01:56:31.184
right? They're going to challenge it.

01:56:31.644 --> 01:56:35.324
So you have to be wary of those folks, right?

01:56:36.804 --> 01:56:41.264
Because that's how they make their bread. That's how they sustain themselves.

01:56:41.544 --> 01:56:47.524
That's how they define their relevance. They're just contrary to anybody that's in authority.

01:56:48.204 --> 01:56:54.004
If you want to live your life that way, that's fine. But you're not part of the resistance.

01:56:54.824 --> 01:57:00.204
See, the resistance is here to set up so that we can move the people out that

01:57:00.204 --> 01:57:07.024
are hurting us and put people in that will help us. So we want to respect authority.

01:57:07.044 --> 01:57:11.724
We want to respect people and promote people in leadership.

01:57:12.144 --> 01:57:17.164
We want to do that. We do not want to be in anarchy, but we also don't want

01:57:17.164 --> 01:57:21.084
to be under a strong-armed dictator, right?

01:57:21.084 --> 01:57:27.804
We want democracy, this democratic republic that, you know, was set up. We want that to work.

01:57:28.684 --> 01:57:34.524
And it seems like whenever it starts benefiting everybody, that's when this

01:57:34.524 --> 01:57:38.464
insane group shows up and says, no, this is just for white folks.

01:57:39.084 --> 01:57:44.424
Now, true, it was nothing but white folks in the room in a hot boarded up building

01:57:44.424 --> 01:57:45.664
called Independence Hall.

01:57:46.264 --> 01:57:51.504
Right. when they came up with their Declaration of Independence in 1776 and

01:57:51.504 --> 01:57:53.924
then in 1789, the Constitution.

01:57:55.764 --> 01:58:02.884
Nonetheless, over time, over these 249 years, everybody that falls under the

01:58:02.884 --> 01:58:07.204
category of citizen of the United States has all these benefits.

01:58:07.924 --> 01:58:11.904
And those people who are not citizens, who happen to be on American soil,

01:58:12.184 --> 01:58:15.584
actually have some benefits of their own, right?

01:58:16.684 --> 01:58:20.384
That some folks that are insane don't quite get.

01:58:21.124 --> 01:58:24.424
It's right there in black and white. You don't need somebody in a black robe.

01:58:24.584 --> 01:58:26.924
You can read that. It's right there.

01:58:28.144 --> 01:58:29.224
So, you know,

01:58:30.101 --> 01:58:36.121
want us to get to a point. And again, like I was telling some people last night,

01:58:36.141 --> 01:58:44.221
I don't want y'all to be a junkie or, you know, like me, but I just want you to be engaged.

01:58:44.501 --> 01:58:46.621
I just want you to pay attention to what's happening.

01:58:47.141 --> 01:58:53.561
And if you know that it's not right, fight against it in whatever way you want to.

01:58:54.221 --> 01:58:57.481
I haven't been to Target. Oh, my God.

01:58:59.141 --> 01:59:02.621
You know, it is a Target literally right around the corner from where I stay.

01:59:02.821 --> 01:59:05.321
It is real easy for me to run in and run out.

01:59:06.101 --> 01:59:11.181
But I've made my decision, right? Other people have made their decision about

01:59:11.181 --> 01:59:15.081
Disney subscriptions and whatever else, right?

01:59:15.601 --> 01:59:18.341
Do what you can. Do what you need to do.

01:59:18.641 --> 01:59:24.081
Do what you have the luxury to do, even, right? But fight.

01:59:24.801 --> 01:59:29.361
If your best way to fight is to contribute to people, do that.

01:59:29.621 --> 01:59:32.761
If your best way to fight is to volunteer, do that.

01:59:33.141 --> 01:59:41.361
If your best way to fight is to write on Substack or Medium or WordPress, knock yourself out.

01:59:42.121 --> 01:59:44.121
If you want to do a podcast, do a podcast.

01:59:45.501 --> 01:59:51.001
All I'm saying is fight. All I'm saying is resist.

01:59:51.621 --> 01:59:56.741
Because you know in your heart what you're seeing every day on the news.

01:59:56.941 --> 01:59:59.461
Some of you have gotten to the point you don't want to watch the news.

01:59:59.921 --> 02:00:04.141
But the thing that has upset you, the thing that has got you feeling some kind

02:00:04.141 --> 02:00:05.721
of way, you know it's not right.

02:00:06.961 --> 02:00:11.961
But what I want you to understand is that you have the power to challenge that.

02:00:12.921 --> 02:00:16.161
What they want you to do is think that they want you to be hopeless.

02:00:16.321 --> 02:00:19.161
They want you to feel that you're powerless. They want you to feel like they're

02:00:19.161 --> 02:00:21.341
inevitable. And they're not.

02:00:22.361 --> 02:00:26.341
They're not. At any moment, it could be over.

02:00:27.001 --> 02:00:34.621
And so what I need you to do is to be steadfast, to be immovable, to resist.

02:00:35.501 --> 02:00:41.601
And if you do that, and we get others to follow suit, then they'll understand.

02:00:42.201 --> 02:00:48.121
And either they will change their stripes, or they will be pushed aside.

02:00:50.015 --> 02:00:56.695
How that works. Because in order for us to live in a society that's cool,

02:00:57.055 --> 02:01:04.915
a society that's balanced, a society that's filled with opportunities,

02:01:05.595 --> 02:01:11.895
we got to get people out of the way that want to stop all that. It's just that simple.

02:01:12.295 --> 02:01:17.555
And the way we do that is through the electing process, through the judicial

02:01:17.555 --> 02:01:23.775
process, through civil disobedience, and education.

02:01:24.235 --> 02:01:28.495
Because the more educated you are, the more you can see what's happening and

02:01:28.495 --> 02:01:32.835
the more you realize this is crazy and you're just not going to tolerate it.

02:01:33.135 --> 02:01:37.115
A lot of you, even if you don't quite get all of the dynamics,

02:01:37.135 --> 02:01:39.495
you feel it in your soul. Something right.

02:01:40.395 --> 02:01:46.975
Young people who are not versed in political efficacy and all that. They feel it.

02:01:47.455 --> 02:01:53.435
And that's why they're doing all these other outlets, right? Or they want to escape.

02:01:54.475 --> 02:01:58.115
The one thing we don't want to take away from any human being,

02:01:58.255 --> 02:01:59.775
let alone young people, is hope.

02:02:01.235 --> 02:02:06.195
So let me close out by saying, guys, we can do this.

02:02:06.795 --> 02:02:13.415
We can get through this. And we will come out on the other side better than we were before.

02:02:14.055 --> 02:02:17.295
But we've got to commit to fight.

02:02:17.895 --> 02:02:23.195
We cannot submit. We cannot ask for us. We cannot surrender.

02:02:24.015 --> 02:02:29.215
We cannot do what Stephen A. Smith said. Just go along to get along.

02:02:29.435 --> 02:02:32.335
We can't do that. We can't.

02:02:33.255 --> 02:02:40.215
He wouldn't be in the spot he was in if black folks had that mindset 60 years ago.

02:02:40.975 --> 02:02:46.715
Wouldn't it happen? We are not in a position of comfort.

02:02:48.115 --> 02:02:52.795
Coretta Scott King basically told us we got to fight for freedom every day.

02:02:53.575 --> 02:02:59.815
So let's do that. If freedom is what you want, if sanity is what you're trying

02:02:59.815 --> 02:03:03.955
to, if order is what you want, fight for it.

02:03:04.655 --> 02:03:07.175
Thank you all for listening. Until next time.

02:03:09.200 --> 02:03:55.411
Music.