Open Your Political Mind Featuring Les Leopold, Veronica Cardenas and John Bonifaz

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

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If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.

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Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak

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truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.

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Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you

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listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.

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Third, go to the website, momenterik.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,

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leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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And I'm really, really excited about this show.

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And because listeners, I want you to follow this instruction.

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I need you to open your political mind for this discussion, because I've got

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three guests who have been really, really dedicated to the work they are doing.

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And part of their work is challenging the norms that are out there and want

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us to do better in our political world.

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So I think that's really what I'm going to call this episode,

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Open Your Political Mind, because that's what they do for a living.

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And even if it's unintentional, just the work that they do. A couple of them

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I could definitely say is intentional.

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And one, just because of her dedication and her commitment and her experience,

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the conversation that we have, that we had, I should say, should open your mind

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about the issue that she works on.

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So that's my challenge for y'all today. I want y'all to open your political

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mind and, and really look at how we can do better in this country, you know,

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to get beyond this reality show garbage that we're dealing with right now.

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Right. Also to,

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Some of you all, by the time you hear this, will be recovering from Halloween

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and all that stuff. And that's all good.

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And we're fast track approaching now, the end of the year.

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It's getting close to the holiday season, Thanksgiving, Christmas and all that stuff.

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And I know some of y'all are like, we're 2025. It's been a long year. It seems like it.

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But, you know, we're chugging along as normal. So, and I hope that you enjoyed

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that extra hour of sleep.

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And I don't know how much longer we're going to have that.

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But Grace is going to touch on those things that she normally does.

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And the one other story that's kind of hitting that she'll touch on is Hurricane

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Melissa that hit the Caribbean pretty hard.

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Jamaica was the most devastated, you know, the most severe impact was Jamaica.

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It affected the island of Hispanola where Haiti and the Dominican Republic exist

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and Cuba and even the Bahamas and Turks and Caicos were impacted.

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But the storm really, really did its worst in Jamaica.

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And so the foresight of the Jamaican government preparing for the storm,

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because the storm took a very unusual path.

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It looked like it was heading straight to the Gulf of Mexico.

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Yes, I say Gulf of Mexico, by the way. Y'all can follow me.

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The lead and call it whatever you want to. I'm a Gen Xer, so I'm going to call it the Gulf of Mexico.

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It was headed toward the Gulf, and then it decided to make a right turn and

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go directly toward the island of Jamaica.

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And so, in its full force.

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So, you know, they haven't seen a storm of that magnitude since Gilbert.

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And that was in the 80s, I believe. So go to this website, supportjamaica.gov.jm.

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And if you want to contribute to help in their rebuilding efforts, please do that.

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Like I said, they had the foresight to create this website when they saw the right turn happen.

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Because, you know, it just looked like it was just going to be a lot of rain.

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But they got the full storm. I mean, Category 5, the whole nine yards.

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So, and it primarily went across the western part of the island, but the storm was so big.

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That it impacted the whole island. I mean, the storm was bigger than the island physically itself.

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The eye of the storm was about at least half the size of the island.

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So, yeah, supportjamaica.gov.jm. Please do that.

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If you want to contribute to other locales that were impacted,

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you can always go to International Red Cross, their website,

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and connect with them as well.

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And, you know, there are some people, United States and United Kingdom and some

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other countries have already can earmark resources and people to go down there and to,

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you know, try to help with the recovery.

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But whatever you can do to help, those folks will greatly appreciate it because,

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you know, Jamaica was, again, was the most hardest hit. But there were fatalities

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on other islands, as far as we know.

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We still haven't got an accurate count because they're really just in a position

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to start assessing damage because it was a slow-moving storm.

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So it literally took like a day to get across.

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So do what you can to help those people out.

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All right. So also, you know, I make my normal appeal to subscribe to the podcast.

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You can go to patreon.com slash a moment, Erik Fleming.

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Yeah. And I will go to moment, Erik.com and continue to show love to the podcast.

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And yeah, so enough of the housekeeping stuff. Let's go ahead and get this started.

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As always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Thanks, Erik. Hurricane Melissa made history as the strongest storm ever to directly hit Jamaica,

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causing widespread devastation and power outages before weakening slightly and

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making its second landfall in eastern Cuba, resulting in multiple deaths across the region.

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A former sheriff's deputy was convicted by an Illinois jury of second-degree

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murder for the 2024 fatal shooting of Sonia Massey. The U.S.

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Department of Agriculture will not use its contingency funds to pay for November's

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SNAP benefits, which are lapsing due to the federal government shutdown.

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Becoming the latest focal points in a widening mid-decade redistricting conflict,

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Virginia Democrats convened a special session to counter Republican gains and

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Indiana's Republican governor is calling for a special session to weigh redrawing their map.

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The U.S. Border Patrol abruptly called off a planned immigration enforcement

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push in the San Francisco Bay Area.

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Civil rights groups have filed a lawsuit seeking to block the U.S.

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Justice Department's decision to close the Community Relations Service,

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which focused on reducing racial and ethnic tensions.

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New York Attorney General Letitia James pleaded not guilty to federal charges

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of allegedly lying on mortgage documents.

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California Governor Gavin Newsom stated that he is considering a run for U.S.

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President in 2028 and will decide after the 2026 midterm elections.

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Israel launched airstrikes in Gaza, killing at least 104 people,

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after accusing Hamas of violating a fragile ceasefire brokered by President Trump.

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Argentine President Javier Malay's party won a strong victory in midterm legislative

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elections, which strengthens his mandate to continue radical economic reforms.

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The Federal Reserve cut interest rates by a quarter of a percentage point.

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And the U.S. Senate failed to reach

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a consensus on a bill that would make daylight saving time permanent.

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I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it's time for my guest, Les Leopold.

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After graduating from Oberlin College in Princeton University School of Public

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and International Affairs,

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Les Leopold co-founded and currently directs the Labor Institute,

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a nonprofit organization that designs research and educational programs on occupational

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safety and health, the environment and economics for unions,

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workers' centers, and community organizations.

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Les has been doing this work since 1975.

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In addition to Wall Street's War on Workers, he is the author of Defiant German, Defiant Jew,

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runaway inequality, how to make a million dollars an hour while financial elites

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get away with siphoning off America's wealth, the looting of America,

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how Wall Street's game of fantasy finance destroyed our jobs,

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pensions, and prosperity, and what we can do about it,

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and the man who hated work and loved labor,

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the life and times of Tony Mazzucci.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Les Leopold.

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All right, Les Leopold. How are you doing, sir? You doing good? I'm doing okay.

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Considering the political climate of the country and the world,

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I'm doing okay. Well, that's... I can't complain.

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Yeah, that makes two of us there, sir. So I greatly appreciate that answer.

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And it's really, really an honor to talk to you.

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I know that you have been, and you probably wouldn't label yourself as this,

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but you've been probably one of the most notable intellectuals when it comes

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to labor and economics in this country.

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And so it's really, really a distinction to have you to take the time to come on the podcast.

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I want to get this started. Normally, I do a couple of icebreakers before I get this started.

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And so the first icebreaker is a quote.

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So your quote is, for democracy to endure, our nation must provide stable livelihoods

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for working people. What does that quote mean to you?

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Well, I think that's a fact of life.

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You can't expect people in this country, the way we're set up,

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you don't have a job, you don't have anything.

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You're not at the bottom of the totem pole, you're off the totem.

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It's very hard to have self-respect in our society without a job.

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And there is absolutely no reason why everybody can't have a decent job and a decent wage.

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That's something we can do, but we don't do it. And that's a tragedy.

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And the longer we don't do it, the longer...

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People feel so insecure in their jobs when they go through mass layoff after mass layoff.

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The longer that exists, I think the more fragile democracy becomes.

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Because people say, hey, you know, I need to work. I need to earn a living.

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I need to earn a decent living.

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You know, otherwise, what's this all about?

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Right. And then so my next icebreaker is something I call 20 questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

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Seven. All right. What do you consider the best way to stay informed about politics,

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current events, et cetera?

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You know, that is a very good question and a very tough question.

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I can only tell you what I do.

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I'm fortunate. My wife is a professor, so she comes across things, shares them with me.

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I watch a little bit of TV news.

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You know, a little bit of CNN. I read the New York Times with a grain of salt.

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And I get a bunch of different articles sent to me via various news services,

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you know, Substack and other places.

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And but, you know, it's funny when you get to be a little bit older,

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when you get to be my age, Eric,

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What happens is you can sift through what sounds true and what doesn't sound

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true, and you don't BS yourself.

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In other words, you're questioning even your strongest beliefs.

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You kind of question them always because

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people on the other side of the political spectrum

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are lobbying stuff you know misinformation disinformation but you gotta you

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gotta you can't blow it all off you have to kind of think about what's coming

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at you you know and and make judgments constantly make judgments about what's

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real what's not real what's true what's not true.

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So your question's good. You have to have information coming your way from a variety of sources.

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And then you have to cut through the BS and try to figure out what's real and

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what's not real and constantly question yourself.

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Don't just blow things away because it upsets you a little bit or you don't like that person.

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Try to think about it a little bit. Because I think what happens is you get

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stronger in your beliefs, more confident that you have a story to tell when

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you start writing and talking to other people, et cetera,

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because you've considered the other people's point of view as opposed to just blowing them off.

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So it's a delicate balance. And it's an interesting question that I really do

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ask myself all the time. Am I getting enough diverse information to actually

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write about the things that I want to write about?

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And I hope that I do. But you need to be questioning yourself as much as taking information in.

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You got to question yourself so you don't get stuck in a rut,

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a bubble, you know, where you can't see what other people are thinking and feeling.

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Yeah. Talk to the listeners about what the Labor Institute is and why did you

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feel the need to create it?

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Wow. What it is, is an educational operation that designs programs for working

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people largely through trade unions, but not exclusively that way,

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on occupational health and safety,

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economics, and environmental labor type issues.

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And we're strictly educational. We don't work for candidates or anything like that.

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And we don't try to get involved in union politics. We just try to open up discussions

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and debates within unions, and we try to develop an informed working people.

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It's interesting. The start of it was back in, kind of grew out of an internship

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I had in 1974 with a guy named Tony Mazzocchi, who was a very progressive leader

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of the oil, chemical, and atomic workers.

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He's the guy, if you know the Karen Silkwood story at all, a woman who got killed

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because she was exposing health and safety problems at a nuclear facility in Oklahoma.

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Just as I was leaving my internship, she came in to talk to Mazzaki because

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he was helping her at that particular time.

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And Mazzaki said, you know what? I think the economy was sort of falling apart at that point.

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We had the Arab oil boycott. It looked like a big recession coming on.

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There was inflation and unemployment.

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He says, you know, working people need to know something about economics.

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Why don't you try to set up a course on economics for workers?

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I'll get the workers together for a couple of trial runs.

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You find the people that can put it together. I was not capable of doing that

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kind of class, but I was a pretty good organizer.

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And I got the crew together to do that. And it worked pretty well.

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And a guy I was working with, David Gordon, who was a pretty famous economist

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at the time, has now passed away, died at a young age, actually.

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Had some connections and was able to raise some money. We put together a little

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institute, and I always wanted to have a little, work in a little kind of a cooperative project.

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I'd seen a bunch of them as I was going through grad school,

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and I thought, you know, that looks interesting.

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And I didn't know what to do for a living. I really didn't know what to do for

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a living. I was totally at a loss.

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So I thought, okay, let's try this.

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And, you know, it was touch and go for a long time.

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I mean, we were, the biggest grants we had for a while was unemployment insurance.

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We go on unemployment insurance, go back to work.

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A couple of years later, back on unemployment insurance, back to work. And we got lucky.

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We got some, we picked up some union clients.

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We picked, we helped them get health and safety government money,

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which then some of it was funneled towards us to do health and safety.

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And what really put us on the map was we developed an educational technique

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that we call the small group activity method.

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It's a non-lecture technique where working people work in small groups of four

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or five, tackle information, and have discussions amongst themselves on questions they care about.

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And it allowed us to train working people as trainers.

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So we have a big relationship with the United Steelworkers. They have 181 health

00:20:02.104 --> 00:20:04.284
and safety trainers that use our methodology,

00:20:04.864 --> 00:20:09.104
workers who do the health and safety training, which is the way it had to be

00:20:09.104 --> 00:20:11.404
because they know a heck of a lot more health and safety than I do.

00:20:11.824 --> 00:20:15.524
As you know, as someone who works for a living, the people who are actually

00:20:15.524 --> 00:20:20.304
on the job know a heck of a lot more than kind of the outside experts that come in, right?

00:20:20.824 --> 00:20:25.364
They see what's going on in their workplace. So that put us on the map,

00:20:25.444 --> 00:20:28.684
and then that created room for me to start working on.

00:20:30.153 --> 00:20:35.413
More on the economic, educational issues. And it wasn't until Tony Mazzocchi

00:20:35.413 --> 00:20:39.133
died in 2002 that I tried to write anything.

00:20:42.493 --> 00:20:48.033
I'm on my eighth book now. But I didn't start writing until...

00:20:48.513 --> 00:20:51.813
I didn't have the confidence to write, and I didn't have a story to tell.

00:20:51.873 --> 00:20:53.913
And then all of a sudden, I realized I do have a story to tell.

00:20:54.233 --> 00:20:59.713
So that really changed my life. I am very privileged to be able to work someplace

00:20:59.713 --> 00:21:01.433
that supports my writing habit.

00:21:01.593 --> 00:21:05.653
So I've got a sub stack that comes out roughly every week.

00:21:05.913 --> 00:21:09.553
It's free, but people seem to be donating every now and then, which is nice.

00:21:10.013 --> 00:21:12.793
I don't take the money. It goes to these educational programs.

00:21:13.193 --> 00:21:19.313
And I just feel blessed that I have the space to try to, what I think is bring

00:21:19.313 --> 00:21:23.593
some important information to the public, especially to working people.

00:21:24.333 --> 00:21:32.233
Yeah. All right. All right, so let's get into some of the intersection between your work in politics.

00:21:32.793 --> 00:21:38.393
Why is the conventional wisdom of white working class populism wrong?

00:21:39.473 --> 00:21:42.893
Well, if you mean that white working class people are racist,

00:21:43.033 --> 00:21:49.153
sexist, xenophobic, and what Hillary Clinton called the deplorables, I check that out.

00:21:49.153 --> 00:21:55.413
And other people that I trust, even who are more statistically proficient than

00:21:55.413 --> 00:21:56.673
I am, checked it out as well.

00:21:56.893 --> 00:22:01.553
So what we did is there are these very, very large surveys, voter surveys.

00:22:01.773 --> 00:22:06.173
They're not polls. They're like these 50,000, 100,000.

00:22:06.613 --> 00:22:10.393
One of them attracts 500,000 voters over time.

00:22:11.113 --> 00:22:16.573
And they ask all kinds of questions. They ask 126 questions on social issues.

00:22:16.573 --> 00:22:20.073
We picked 25 of the most controversial ones.

00:22:20.333 --> 00:22:25.413
Like, you know, should gay and lesbian couples be able to adopt children?

00:22:25.793 --> 00:22:28.753
You know, is same-sex...

00:22:29.992 --> 00:22:36.132
Marriage wrong, always wrong, you know, cut, or, you know, black people just,

00:22:36.272 --> 00:22:41.212
you know, more lazy than, you know, Jews and others that came into this country, blah, blah, blah.

00:22:41.592 --> 00:22:47.012
You know, these really charge, you know, gun control, religious issues, et cetera, et cetera.

00:22:47.372 --> 00:22:55.952
And what we found, to my great surprise, actually, was in the last 20, 10, 20 years,

00:22:56.392 --> 00:23:01.912
there has been a remarkable transformation amongst people that we call white

00:23:01.912 --> 00:23:04.072
working class, and I define that two ways.

00:23:04.312 --> 00:23:09.812
Bottom two-thirds of the income distribution, plus no college degree,

00:23:09.992 --> 00:23:11.512
no two-year degree, no four-year degree.

00:23:11.732 --> 00:23:14.292
Maybe a little college, but pretty much high school graduates,

00:23:14.492 --> 00:23:16.952
and who define themselves as white.

00:23:18.412 --> 00:23:24.992
That's the group. So a couple issues that really blew my mind. Here's one question.

00:23:25.832 --> 00:23:29.052
Should gay and lesbian couples be legally

00:23:29.052 --> 00:23:31.892
permitted to adopt children 10 years ago

00:23:31.892 --> 00:23:38.872
only 38 percent of white working class people support that position now it's

00:23:38.872 --> 00:23:45.072
70 percent let me take another one which i i i find this one most amazing and

00:23:45.072 --> 00:23:50.272
and we've double checked this one which is they asked a question,

00:23:50.432 --> 00:23:51.592
and this is their wording,

00:23:52.132 --> 00:23:58.472
should illegal immigrants who have been here three years, paid their taxes,

00:23:58.612 --> 00:24:00.112
and have not committed a felony crime.

00:24:01.788 --> 00:24:06.168
Permitted to become citizens. So all this stuff about immigration,

00:24:06.568 --> 00:24:16.888
that one, you know, that one jumped from 32% 10 years ago, or in 2010,

00:24:17.188 --> 00:24:22.388
15 years ago, up to 62% in 2020.

00:24:22.868 --> 00:24:27.868
Now, we checked this again in a survey that we did with YouGov,

00:24:28.008 --> 00:24:33.868
and we did 3,000 voters in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin.

00:24:34.288 --> 00:24:35.708
You know, key swing states.

00:24:36.428 --> 00:24:43.208
Used to be the blue wall. Now, Ohio, the blue is crumbled. And we asked exactly the same question.

00:24:43.768 --> 00:24:51.028
And it's now up to 63% as of 2025, April, April 2025.

00:24:51.928 --> 00:24:58.168
So what's going on here? What's going on, Center for Working Class Politics checked all 126.

00:24:58.168 --> 00:25:03.868
And what they found was that, yes, indeed, white working class people have gotten

00:25:03.868 --> 00:25:10.728
more liberal on all these issues, but not as liberal as middle class and upper middle class people.

00:25:11.068 --> 00:25:15.988
So what's happening is it's a relative thing. They look like they're deplorables

00:25:15.988 --> 00:25:21.748
compared to where the more highly educated, higher income people have gone.

00:25:21.748 --> 00:25:30.348
And so I think it's an enormous era, political era, to view people through that deplorable lens.

00:25:30.828 --> 00:25:33.888
Sure, you're going to run into people all over the place.

00:25:33.908 --> 00:25:38.348
And by the way, as you probably already know, at all levels of society,

00:25:38.348 --> 00:25:42.028
you're going to run into people who are racist and are xenophobic.

00:25:42.188 --> 00:25:47.808
And God knows sexism exists at the highest levels of corporate America.

00:25:47.808 --> 00:25:52.488
But to write off a whole, you know, two-thirds of the country,

00:25:52.648 --> 00:25:57.748
basically, as deplorable, is politically suicidal.

00:25:58.907 --> 00:26:03.747
And my experience with trade unions workers has been, you know,

00:26:03.887 --> 00:26:07.707
almost every contract, union contract, you probably know this from your work

00:26:07.707 --> 00:26:10.887
as well, has a big anti-discriminatory clause.

00:26:11.427 --> 00:26:16.627
You know, no worker shall be discriminated in age, race, sex,

00:26:17.227 --> 00:26:19.967
national origin, religion, and so on.

00:26:19.967 --> 00:26:27.347
And you can get virtually any working class voter person to say they believe

00:26:27.347 --> 00:26:29.047
in that anti-discriminatory clause.

00:26:29.247 --> 00:26:34.987
Where the argument may come over whether affirmative action is still a good

00:26:34.987 --> 00:26:36.707
thing or not. There's a lot of debates.

00:26:37.267 --> 00:26:41.607
And there's an enormous diversity of opinion amongst working people like there

00:26:41.607 --> 00:26:44.827
is in the country as a whole. So anyway, I'd like to put that one to bed.

00:26:45.287 --> 00:26:48.647
I'm not going to be able to because it crops up all the time.

00:26:49.347 --> 00:26:53.287
And I just keep reciting the facts. And hopefully, eventually,

00:26:53.647 --> 00:26:55.587
you know, if I had a bigger megaphone, it might penetrate.

00:26:55.787 --> 00:26:57.927
But, you know, I'm a small fish in a big pond.

00:26:58.727 --> 00:27:02.027
So what can the Democrats do to stop writing them all?

00:27:02.327 --> 00:27:06.447
What would you, if they did listen to you, what would you tell them?

00:27:07.187 --> 00:27:08.687
Oh, boy, that's a tough one, Eric.

00:27:09.787 --> 00:27:15.807
The other thing we found in our survey was that 70, we asked an open-ended question at the beginning.

00:27:16.507 --> 00:27:18.867
What's the first thing that comes to mind when you think of the Democratic Party?

00:27:20.327 --> 00:27:27.747
70% had negative things to say. And a very small percentage connected with woke stuff.

00:27:28.107 --> 00:27:36.887
So I think the problem with the Democratic Party is that it's trying to be a coalition between,

00:27:38.310 --> 00:27:44.910
at the top and working people. And they don't recognize that there's a conflict of interest.

00:27:45.110 --> 00:27:49.750
They think it's kumbaya, you know, that if we grow the pie, everybody can get more.

00:27:49.870 --> 00:27:53.950
It's okay for us to go and get billionaires, raise money for billionaires.

00:27:54.070 --> 00:27:57.550
It's okay to have what they call, you know, the money primary,

00:27:57.790 --> 00:28:00.730
where before even candidates run in primaries.

00:28:00.990 --> 00:28:04.710
I mean, you know the game very well in Atlanta, right? They got to raise the

00:28:04.710 --> 00:28:08.010
money. But it puts upper income people in control.

00:28:09.730 --> 00:28:14.450
I heard directly from Sean Fain, United Auto Workers president,

00:28:14.790 --> 00:28:20.170
that his speech at the Democratic Party convention was they tried to edit out

00:28:20.170 --> 00:28:26.430
stuff that they thought was too anti-corporate because the wealthy people didn't like it.

00:28:26.870 --> 00:28:31.570
So I think unless you can't bring working people in until you understand that

00:28:31.570 --> 00:28:35.870
they think that the Democratic Party is owned by elites and wealthy people.

00:28:36.490 --> 00:28:38.950
So that creates a problem.

00:28:40.770 --> 00:28:45.330
My colleague at the Center for Working Class Politics has been trying for the

00:28:45.330 --> 00:28:47.610
last, I don't know how many years now,

00:28:47.970 --> 00:28:51.350
trying to convince the Democratic Party that the best way to recruit working

00:28:51.350 --> 00:28:57.110
class people is to take a strong populist economic platform.

00:28:57.390 --> 00:29:00.630
And by that, so we tested out with them.

00:29:00.710 --> 00:29:05.830
We tested out in that large survey of 3,000 people, we tested out a new policy

00:29:05.830 --> 00:29:11.350
that if the government, any corporation that takes government money and has

00:29:11.350 --> 00:29:15.470
500 more employees shall not be permitted to do compulsory layoffs.

00:29:15.550 --> 00:29:21.430
All layoffs have to be voluntary based on buyouts, like they do with white-collar executives.

00:29:22.566 --> 00:29:25.606
Democrats did something like that, that would get the attention of working people

00:29:25.606 --> 00:29:30.846
that got unemployed due to the free trade agreements that Bill Clinton put into

00:29:30.846 --> 00:29:35.326
place and are signed and was so proud of, even though a lot of Democrats opposed it.

00:29:35.566 --> 00:29:42.266
So they have to change their tune on progressive populist planks that may be

00:29:42.266 --> 00:29:48.186
upsetting to the upper income donors that they seem appear, especially to working

00:29:48.186 --> 00:29:49.846
people, to appear beholden to.

00:29:50.186 --> 00:29:53.306
So it's sort of like which side of your own. Are you going to do stuff that's

00:29:53.306 --> 00:29:56.166
going to directly help working people, or are you going to try to say,

00:29:56.286 --> 00:29:57.526
oh, it's an opportunity society?

00:29:57.606 --> 00:30:01.966
All we should do is give everybody a fair chance at the starting line and then

00:30:01.966 --> 00:30:06.806
let the billionaires be billionaires because they're just growing the pie.

00:30:08.326 --> 00:30:11.366
Eric, it isn't going to be easy. It's going to take some work.

00:30:11.486 --> 00:30:15.306
It took 40 years to alienate working class people to the degree they're alienated

00:30:15.306 --> 00:30:17.906
now. It's going to take some time to change that. Okay.

00:30:18.506 --> 00:30:22.946
All right. In your book, Runaway Inequality, you wrote, the arc of capitalism

00:30:22.946 --> 00:30:24.546
does not bend toward justice.

00:30:24.846 --> 00:30:29.226
We must bend it. How can that be done through public policy?

00:30:30.479 --> 00:30:34.759
Yeah, I think we're seeing this play out now in real time.

00:30:35.979 --> 00:30:41.279
During the Cold War, the idea of democracy and capitalism working hand in hand

00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:47.859
to prevent communism and totalitarianism from spreading was incredibly successful.

00:30:48.619 --> 00:30:53.059
And you could see the communist authoritarian model collapsed.

00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:58.279
But there were a lot of theorists that were saying, you know,

00:30:58.759 --> 00:31:03.959
if you look closely at corporate design, they're not democracies, right?

00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:07.219
They're, you know, they're dictatorships.

00:31:07.419 --> 00:31:10.699
Unless there's a union there that sort of balances things off in general,

00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:12.079
the boss gets to tell you what to do.

00:31:12.219 --> 00:31:15.559
You know, they can fire you for any reason they want, as long as it doesn't

00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:19.079
violate discriminatory laws that are on the books. And you know how weak they

00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:23.479
are in many cases and what kind of effort it takes to try to beat them back.

00:31:23.999 --> 00:31:27.879
Okay. So there's attention there. And a guy like Peter Thiel,

00:31:28.159 --> 00:31:31.959
you know, the founder of PayPal and, you know, big supporter of Trump,

00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:37.179
he believes that there should be a kind of a technological.

00:31:38.959 --> 00:31:42.179
Like a dynasty. There should be a technological control of the country,

00:31:42.399 --> 00:31:44.399
that democracy doesn't work.

00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:53.899
And so what you're seeing is now the tension between capitalism and democracy

00:31:53.899 --> 00:31:57.739
is stretching the democratic order.

00:31:57.979 --> 00:32:03.279
You know, the idea of running roughshod over, I mean, look, we now have a president

00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:05.439
who doesn't even pay attention to Congress anymore.

00:32:05.579 --> 00:32:10.839
We have a Republican Party who doesn't even hold them accountable for taking away their powers.

00:32:11.379 --> 00:32:15.379
So there is, how does public policy change this?

00:32:15.739 --> 00:32:19.739
I think we have to go back to the lessons of the 30s, 40s, 50s,

00:32:19.859 --> 00:32:22.719
and 50s, even into the 60s.

00:32:22.899 --> 00:32:26.259
There was a balance, a growing balance between labor and capital.

00:32:26.719 --> 00:32:31.039
Unions were strong enough to tame capital. And the public policy that would

00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:36.179
make the most difference would be allowing people who want to be in unions to get into unions.

00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:40.999
A labor law reform, you know, it used to be one out of three private sector

00:32:40.999 --> 00:32:43.419
workers were in a labor union.

00:32:43.719 --> 00:32:45.779
That was in 1955. Now it's one out of 10.

00:32:46.619 --> 00:32:52.679
And as a result, that balance that allows, that tames corporate America, that tames.

00:32:54.146 --> 00:32:59.326
Tendency to be autocratic, that balance has fallen apart.

00:33:00.086 --> 00:33:04.886
And so public policies that would rebuild the power of working people to tame

00:33:04.886 --> 00:33:07.346
corporate power would be enormously helpful.

00:33:07.906 --> 00:33:12.106
And, you know, Northern Europe has done a much better job than that.

00:33:12.226 --> 00:33:14.606
You know, Sweden, 90% of the people are trade unions.

00:33:14.806 --> 00:33:18.666
And it's, I think, a more vibrant democracy.

00:33:19.986 --> 00:33:23.926
Every country's got problems. And nothing's perfect.

00:33:24.086 --> 00:33:26.606
Nothing ever will be perfect. And we have to live with imperfection.

00:33:26.686 --> 00:33:28.706
But I don't like the direction we're headed into.

00:33:29.866 --> 00:33:32.846
So I think your question is right. What policies would bring us back?

00:33:33.086 --> 00:33:38.286
I think a number one policy would be giving working people more power,

00:33:38.606 --> 00:33:41.506
detain the excesses of corporate America.

00:33:41.686 --> 00:33:46.406
Peter Thiel would have a different tune if whatever company he now owns,

00:33:46.486 --> 00:33:49.866
if the workers were unionized, he'd have to deal with them. His attitude towards

00:33:49.866 --> 00:33:50.906
democracy would change.

00:33:51.486 --> 00:33:55.686
Yeah. All right. So I'm going to try to combine a couple of questions.

00:33:56.206 --> 00:34:00.066
They're really two separate issues, but they kind of go along the same thing.

00:34:00.606 --> 00:34:04.966
According to the Institute for Policy Studies, the average gap between the top

00:34:04.966 --> 00:34:11.906
100 CEOs at low wage companies and their median workers is at a ratio of 632 to one.

00:34:12.306 --> 00:34:16.966
The Economic Policy Institute reported that the typical black worker earned

00:34:16.966 --> 00:34:22.346
24.4% less per hour than the typical white worker.

00:34:22.626 --> 00:34:28.806
So my question is, how do we get to this point? How do we let these gaps happen?

00:34:29.086 --> 00:34:31.726
And are there any ways that we can narrow them?

00:34:33.018 --> 00:34:38.278
Well, yeah, there are a lot of ways to narrow that, the overall wage gap between

00:34:38.278 --> 00:34:39.718
the top and the average worker.

00:34:39.938 --> 00:34:44.478
You know, the numbers we have are a little higher than that's even higher than the 632.

00:34:44.738 --> 00:34:50.318
We take the top 100 and compare it to the median worker across the country.

00:34:50.778 --> 00:34:56.558
So, you know, there's a lot of, they have tremendous wealth extraction gains.

00:34:56.818 --> 00:35:00.318
The trick is to get the money before they get it. because trying to get it after

00:35:00.318 --> 00:35:03.538
they get it through taxing, et cetera, is very hard.

00:35:03.658 --> 00:35:08.298
You can do some of that, but they can hide the money. They don't have to cash in.

00:35:08.378 --> 00:35:11.518
They can keep their stocks and bonds, take loans out against them,

00:35:11.538 --> 00:35:14.178
and never have to pay capital gains and all this kind of stuff.

00:35:14.378 --> 00:35:15.478
They have so many tricks.

00:35:16.578 --> 00:35:21.758
You and I can't even begin to fathom. They're paying their accountants and lawyers

00:35:21.758 --> 00:35:23.718
$200,000 an hour for a reason.

00:35:24.258 --> 00:35:28.778
They're hiding their money from the tax collector. That's an age-old problem

00:35:28.778 --> 00:35:32.158
that goes back thousands of years. Filthy people do that.

00:35:32.998 --> 00:35:38.458
Okay. So getting it beforehand would be anything you could do to increase the

00:35:38.458 --> 00:35:41.378
minimum wage would have a tremendous impact.

00:35:42.038 --> 00:35:49.478
If you could get the minimum wage up to $15, $20 an hour or higher even, that would help. Okay.

00:35:50.293 --> 00:35:56.993
Eliminating stock buybacks, which is when a company basically squeezes the workforce,

00:35:57.193 --> 00:36:02.573
takes the cash, buys back its own shares, boosts the price of the stock artificially.

00:36:02.733 --> 00:36:04.353
This used to be called stock manipulation.

00:36:04.573 --> 00:36:09.613
It was basically illegal until 1982 when the Reagan administration deregulated it.

00:36:10.153 --> 00:36:15.093
And it stayed, you know, now 60, it used to be two, a limit was 2% of corporate

00:36:15.093 --> 00:36:16.673
profits could go to these stock buybacks.

00:36:16.793 --> 00:36:21.673
Now it's 60%. It's pathetic. You could just eliminate that, say, you know, back to 2%.

00:36:22.313 --> 00:36:26.793
And another one is this whole leverage buyout thing where, I mean,

00:36:26.833 --> 00:36:31.253
I don't know, Eric, how did you and I miss this game? You go, you buy up a company.

00:36:31.593 --> 00:36:36.453
Look, watch, this is what they do. They, they, they set up a fund with other people's money.

00:36:37.663 --> 00:36:43.123
Then buy up a company with debt, and then they place the debt on the company that they bought.

00:36:43.283 --> 00:36:46.543
So now they own a company more or less for free. Then they milk the company

00:36:46.543 --> 00:36:51.083
for all it's worth, four or five years, you know, a much higher percentage of

00:36:51.083 --> 00:36:52.863
those companies go under, unemployed everybody.

00:36:52.863 --> 00:36:59.483
They've walked off, you know, with billions and tens of billions across the economy.

00:37:00.643 --> 00:37:07.603
In 1986, Dan Rostenkowski, who was head of the Ways and Means Committee and

00:37:07.603 --> 00:37:09.023
a Democrat out of Chicago,

00:37:09.463 --> 00:37:15.743
out of your hometown, he said, hey, we can't let them do this because what they're

00:37:15.743 --> 00:37:21.923
doing is that money is tax deductible when they put all that debt on the company.

00:37:22.063 --> 00:37:26.623
Why don't we just say everything over $500,000 is going to get taxed?

00:37:27.103 --> 00:37:30.203
Oh, they went nuts. They jumped all over him.

00:37:30.403 --> 00:37:34.623
They claimed he caused a crash in the stock market. But that's the kind of stuff you have to do.

00:37:34.723 --> 00:37:39.883
You've got to stop the extraction, the wealth extraction, and also make it a

00:37:39.883 --> 00:37:42.883
huge number of people want to be in unions.

00:37:43.063 --> 00:37:48.923
Like 70% of young people now think that under 30 think unions are a great thing,

00:37:48.983 --> 00:37:49.923
but they can't get into them.

00:37:50.103 --> 00:37:57.783
So that's another way of what we call pre-distributional change in the gap.

00:37:57.783 --> 00:38:02.723
Now, the more difficult question you ask is what accounts for the wage gap between.

00:38:04.490 --> 00:38:07.590
And white, or black, brown, and white. There's probably three tiers,

00:38:07.710 --> 00:38:08.910
and it's been there for a long time.

00:38:09.510 --> 00:38:14.770
Between, you know, when unions were growing, that gap up until the late 60s

00:38:14.770 --> 00:38:20.310
was actually shrinking dramatically because more and more people of color were

00:38:20.310 --> 00:38:24.230
getting into trade unions, and they were getting out of the professions.

00:38:24.650 --> 00:38:29.930
See, it's not, there's some, you know, people working side by side getting paid

00:38:29.930 --> 00:38:32.530
different amounts based on their color.

00:38:32.530 --> 00:38:35.510
There's not a lot of that that goes on anymore what it

00:38:35.510 --> 00:38:38.570
is you've got an excess of people

00:38:38.570 --> 00:38:41.630
of color in the low-income jobs and not

00:38:41.630 --> 00:38:47.670
in the more middle and higher income jobs so but that's changing it especially

00:38:47.670 --> 00:38:54.710
in unions my wife teaches apprentices at an electrical worker union electrical

00:38:54.710 --> 00:38:58.510
worker apprentices in new york they have to get a two-year degree to become

00:38:58.510 --> 00:39:01.270
journeyman And you now look,

00:39:01.390 --> 00:39:05.410
that used to be 20 years ago, 30 years ago, that was a lily white union.

00:39:05.930 --> 00:39:10.390
And, you know, the people who got on the job get paid well.

00:39:11.450 --> 00:39:17.530
Now, 40% of her class is, those classes now, and 800 people go through this

00:39:17.530 --> 00:39:19.470
program every year, are people of color.

00:39:19.790 --> 00:39:22.450
So that's a great way to start narrowing the gap.

00:39:23.010 --> 00:39:27.810
But actually, I hate to keep coming back to this, but the more you can promote

00:39:27.810 --> 00:39:29.710
unionism, the more you'll close the gap.

00:39:29.830 --> 00:39:34.630
Because the people who are in unions and the low-income jobs have seen a dramatic increase.

00:39:36.205 --> 00:39:39.405
In their pay, you know, service employees in the National Union in California,

00:39:39.985 --> 00:39:42.765
the home health care workers got, you know, 70,000 of them got,

00:39:42.925 --> 00:39:45.885
most of them are people of color, got a huge increase.

00:39:46.145 --> 00:39:49.445
So I think that, I think those are the kinds of changes.

00:39:49.665 --> 00:39:55.685
And again, it all comes back to rebalancing the power between corporations and working people.

00:39:55.945 --> 00:40:03.565
And I think the days of overt discrimination in unions are over.

00:40:03.565 --> 00:40:10.045
I think my union, United Steelworkers, just elected a black woman as president.

00:40:10.525 --> 00:40:15.685
Communication Workers Union, which is a pretty white union, just elected a black

00:40:15.685 --> 00:40:18.145
man as president of the union.

00:40:18.505 --> 00:40:26.525
So, you know, the world has changed for the better, but we have to empower where

00:40:26.525 --> 00:40:27.845
the most important people.

00:40:29.561 --> 00:40:36.681
In that gap can take place. And it can happen until we force it the rest of the way.

00:40:36.921 --> 00:40:42.321
You know, used to be 40% gap, now it's 24%. You know, it should be going down,

00:40:42.441 --> 00:40:47.961
down, down every year as we unionize and pass minimum wage laws for the lower

00:40:47.961 --> 00:40:50.101
income workers, because that's where the problem is.

00:40:50.321 --> 00:40:54.001
We still have a disproportionate number of people of color in the low income

00:40:54.001 --> 00:40:57.401
jobs. Yeah. And you won't get any argument with me about unions.

00:40:57.721 --> 00:41:01.741
My dad was amalgamated transit. My mom was asked me.

00:41:02.101 --> 00:41:06.341
I was a teamster at one time in my life, as well as UFCW.

00:41:06.601 --> 00:41:11.061
So you got the whole family there. You got the whole AFL there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:41:11.181 --> 00:41:16.221
So we believe in unions. And growing up in Chicago, I mean, that's almost like

00:41:16.221 --> 00:41:18.061
a rite of passage to have a union job.

00:41:18.341 --> 00:41:24.001
So last question, do you think American voters have figured out that President

00:41:24.001 --> 00:41:26.761
Trump has given him false economic hope?

00:41:26.961 --> 00:41:30.481
And will that realization show up in the midterm elections?

00:41:31.141 --> 00:41:37.121
You know, I would like to think yes, but what I'm worried about is the Democrats

00:41:37.121 --> 00:41:40.841
shooting themselves in the foot, right? Because it's always a comparative thing.

00:41:41.241 --> 00:41:46.281
So I'm not happy about this shutdown, government shutdown.

00:41:46.821 --> 00:41:51.661
I think the strategy is going to backfire on the Democrats and some surveys

00:41:51.661 --> 00:41:56.421
are already showing it. believe it or not, support for the Republican Party

00:41:56.421 --> 00:41:59.981
has actually gone up, not down, during the shutdown.

00:42:00.381 --> 00:42:06.681
So I'm worried about that negative image of the Democratic Party.

00:42:06.941 --> 00:42:10.141
You know, we found out in a survey, I'm sorry to have to keep going back,

00:42:10.241 --> 00:42:12.081
but it's really fresh information.

00:42:12.521 --> 00:42:16.001
I don't think anybody's ever done this before. In those four states.

00:42:17.210 --> 00:42:21.850
Run a Democrat versus an Independent saying exactly the same thing,

00:42:22.270 --> 00:42:26.970
exactly the same messages, the Democrat starts 8% behind.

00:42:27.390 --> 00:42:33.890
In Ohio, it's 16%. The only state where it's roughly even is in Pennsylvania,

00:42:33.890 --> 00:42:38.690
for reasons we're not sure exactly why. We're still investigating that.

00:42:38.870 --> 00:42:41.690
But there's a huge penalty for just being a Democrat.

00:42:41.890 --> 00:42:50.230
The image of a Democrat is so tarnished in those states that I worry that the

00:42:50.230 --> 00:42:55.370
anti-Trump thing isn't going to carry over as much as people hope.

00:42:55.630 --> 00:42:57.230
Then you've got, that's one problem.

00:42:57.530 --> 00:43:00.150
Second problem is you've got the gerrymandering that's going on.

00:43:00.510 --> 00:43:03.730
The Republicans are basically violating tradition.

00:43:04.050 --> 00:43:07.810
Instead of every 10 years redistricting, now they're redistricting.

00:43:08.010 --> 00:43:12.130
Now the Supreme Court is letting them blow apart minority districts,

00:43:12.130 --> 00:43:16.610
minority-majority districts that allow the representation of people of color

00:43:16.610 --> 00:43:19.030
that are blowing those apart. So that's another problem.

00:43:19.410 --> 00:43:26.810
On the plus side, though, is all congressional races are really about who's running.

00:43:27.270 --> 00:43:32.270
And if in the purple districts or the sling districts, there are just strong

00:43:32.270 --> 00:43:36.550
candidates, and if those candidates dare to run against their own party,

00:43:36.550 --> 00:43:39.310
If the Democrats would be, given our survey.

00:43:39.930 --> 00:43:43.370
The Democrats would be very wise to run against the Democratic establishment.

00:43:43.550 --> 00:43:47.870
They say, hey, I'm going to clean up. I'm going to get those billionaires out

00:43:47.870 --> 00:43:48.790
of the Democratic Party.

00:43:48.970 --> 00:43:52.070
I'm going to fight for working people every single day. This is what I'm going to do.

00:43:52.410 --> 00:43:57.450
And one issue that I think, not only my pet issue about these mass layoffs,

00:43:57.770 --> 00:44:04.330
but the one issue that I think they could use to get ahead is they should do it right now.

00:44:04.330 --> 00:44:11.930
They should put a bill in that says no trading in stocks and bonds by congressional,

00:44:12.390 --> 00:44:14.610
any public official in Congress.

00:44:16.031 --> 00:44:18.791
Families and put criminal penalties on it if

00:44:18.791 --> 00:44:24.451
you do it because that will right now the democrats have been you know mansi

00:44:24.451 --> 00:44:28.711
pelosi wouldn't let that come to a vote i mean her attitude was what's wrong

00:44:28.711 --> 00:44:33.171
with that you know and the rest of us would say obviously what's wrong with

00:44:33.171 --> 00:44:37.531
it you have all this inside information you're trading we don't even have stocks

00:44:37.531 --> 00:44:38.591
and bonds to trade and you,

00:44:39.211 --> 00:44:44.131
what what's going on here so i would if i were running for office i would bring

00:44:44.131 --> 00:44:45.671
that up every single day.

00:44:45.871 --> 00:44:51.511
I'm going to change the Democratic Party, and I'm going to force the Republicans also to support this.

00:44:53.211 --> 00:44:56.871
It's such an obvious which side are you on kind of thing. So I'm hoping there

00:44:56.871 --> 00:44:58.111
are candidates with some guts.

00:44:59.031 --> 00:45:04.851
And these races, congressional races, really are, like people will say,

00:45:05.391 --> 00:45:08.211
Congress sucks, but I like my congressman.

00:45:08.451 --> 00:45:14.671
The difference between the national perception and the local perception is great.

00:45:14.951 --> 00:45:20.591
So there's hope for the Democrats and there are problems on the Democrats.

00:45:20.791 --> 00:45:27.491
I'm not a great pronosticator, but right now I don't like what the Democrats

00:45:27.491 --> 00:45:29.391
are doing right now to distinguish themselves.

00:45:29.611 --> 00:45:36.311
I don't understand why they didn't just let these tremendous increases in Obamacare

00:45:36.311 --> 00:45:41.411
premiums, just let them happen. let the Republicans own it say hey.

00:45:42.624 --> 00:45:46.624
What they've done to you. Your premiums just went up threefold, fourfold.

00:45:47.484 --> 00:45:53.904
Why did they think that they would get points for trying to stop it by shutting

00:45:53.904 --> 00:45:56.704
down the government? Anyway, that's just me.

00:45:57.184 --> 00:46:00.184
I'm hoping I'm wrong and that I'm just being misreading it.

00:46:00.724 --> 00:46:07.124
I don't think I am. Well, no, I mean, your validation is, and at this point,

00:46:07.404 --> 00:46:12.744
30 days into a shutdown, I think, You know, those are always the legitimate concerns.

00:46:12.764 --> 00:46:15.564
How long can the protests happen? Right.

00:46:16.124 --> 00:46:21.444
When does it get to a point where it's a it's a it's a point of no return as

00:46:21.444 --> 00:46:25.564
far as getting the benefit out of taking that stand? So that's legit.

00:46:25.784 --> 00:46:30.404
And then also to highlight the point you were making about the stocks,

00:46:30.624 --> 00:46:36.204
that's why Raphael Warnock is a senator in Georgia as opposed to Kelly Loeffler.

00:46:36.424 --> 00:46:39.924
Kelly Loeffler was literally married to the New York Stock Exchange.

00:46:41.064 --> 00:46:43.944
And so and so it was like

00:46:43.944 --> 00:46:47.264
you know and she got caught up in some insider trading

00:46:47.264 --> 00:46:52.124
because it's like that's her pillow talk literally and so rafael was able to

00:46:52.124 --> 00:46:56.664
play that and he got and and people in georgia didn't matter whether it was

00:46:56.664 --> 00:47:02.024
in downtown atlanta or downtown millageville people responded to that and that's

00:47:02.024 --> 00:47:06.724
how he got in there so there's a lot of legitimacy in what you're saying.

00:47:07.364 --> 00:47:15.024
And I really am glad that you and others are out there at least trying to let

00:47:15.024 --> 00:47:16.544
people know what's going on.

00:47:16.744 --> 00:47:21.124
If people want to be able to reach out to you more, you mentioned your subset,

00:47:21.324 --> 00:47:26.644
kind of talk about the title of that and how else can people reach out to you.

00:47:26.784 --> 00:47:30.324
I know your latest book is called Wall Street's War on Workers,

00:47:30.604 --> 00:47:33.644
which some of the questions I got came from that.

00:47:35.027 --> 00:47:40.287
This is the time where you make your pitch and tell people how they can reach out. Okay, great.

00:47:40.707 --> 00:47:44.887
So you can follow me. I mean, you can get my Substack for free. You can sign up.

00:47:45.627 --> 00:47:50.047
I think if you go to Les Leopold at Substack, you'll find it.

00:47:51.707 --> 00:47:54.847
And I try to get that going.

00:47:54.907 --> 00:47:58.427
I'm actually working on a new book now, which I hope, Eric, you'll have me on

00:47:58.427 --> 00:48:00.787
again when it should be out in a few months.

00:48:01.547 --> 00:48:06.247
Right now, the working title is, the billionaires have two parties, we need one of our own.

00:48:08.722 --> 00:48:13.522
It's really designed to, how do we deal with the fact that the Democratic Party

00:48:13.522 --> 00:48:19.682
is virtually dead in 130 congressional districts across the country where they lose by 25% or more?

00:48:20.222 --> 00:48:24.962
You know, they're not a viable institution. And you know some of those districts.

00:48:25.142 --> 00:48:26.582
My God, you know some of those districts.

00:48:26.922 --> 00:48:31.462
And I think a challenge could be made in those districts if we can't carry the

00:48:31.462 --> 00:48:34.522
baggage the Democratic Party do. But anyway, that'll be a controversial book.

00:48:36.582 --> 00:48:39.282
So if you want to reach me directly just send

00:48:39.282 --> 00:48:42.242
a message to you can get me at leslieopold at

00:48:42.242 --> 00:48:45.142
aol.com i'm not afraid to answer email

00:48:45.142 --> 00:48:48.222
hopefully i won't be trolled and that

00:48:48.222 --> 00:48:53.022
but check out my sub stack it seems to be a nice community of people who are

00:48:53.022 --> 00:48:57.642
are reading it and then when the new book's together i'll make sure everybody's

00:48:57.642 --> 00:49:01.082
sub stack knows how to get a hold of it and hopefully i'll get back on with

00:49:01.082 --> 00:49:05.782
eric and we can talk about it well one of the rules is that once you have been on the show,

00:49:06.042 --> 00:49:08.082
you have an open invitation to come back.

00:49:08.262 --> 00:49:13.762
So if you're writing a new book, we'll definitely make sure that we'll get you on to talk about that.

00:49:14.242 --> 00:49:17.562
Again, Leslie Leopold, it's really been an honor to talk to you.

00:49:18.022 --> 00:49:21.382
And I'm glad that we've had this chance to interact.

00:49:21.582 --> 00:49:26.602
And I definitely want to get you back on any way I can.

00:49:26.842 --> 00:49:28.962
So again, thank you for coming on this time.

00:49:29.762 --> 00:49:32.802
Thank you for having me. Actually, the honor is mine. It's really,

00:49:32.802 --> 00:49:36.362
It's really great to have met you, and I look forward to working with you again

00:49:36.362 --> 00:49:37.962
in the future. All right, guys.

00:49:58.787 --> 00:50:04.847
All right, and we are back. And so now it's time for my next guest, Veronica Cardenas.

00:50:06.147 --> 00:50:10.167
Veronica Cardenas Esquire is an award-winning immigration attorney,

00:50:10.647 --> 00:50:15.107
entrepreneur, and first-generation Latina committed to bringing humanity and

00:50:15.107 --> 00:50:16.347
justice to immigration law.

00:50:17.127 --> 00:50:21.547
As the daughter of Colombian and Peruvian immigrants and a proud mother of three,

00:50:21.947 --> 00:50:26.747
she understands firsthand the challenges and resilience that define the immigrant experience.

00:50:27.367 --> 00:50:31.987
Nearly 13 years as an assistant chief counsel for U.S.

00:50:32.107 --> 00:50:36.787
Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Veronica advised DHS stakeholders,

00:50:37.227 --> 00:50:40.327
trained prosecutors, and worked with agencies like the U.S.

00:50:40.667 --> 00:50:45.847
Department of Justice and USCIS to navigate complex immigration cases.

00:50:46.347 --> 00:50:50.607
However, after witnessing the injustices within the system, she made the bold

00:50:50.607 --> 00:50:56.367
decision to resign in 2023 and fully dedicate herself to defending and empowering immigrants.

00:50:56.627 --> 00:51:01.267
She is the founder of Cardenas Immigration Law, where she provides strategic,

00:51:01.507 --> 00:51:06.807
human-centered legal representation and humanigration, a mentorship program

00:51:06.807 --> 00:51:12.307
that educates immigration attorneys on how to serve their clients with both expertise and empathy.

00:51:12.307 --> 00:51:17.167
A recognized thought leader and media contributor, Veronica has been featured

00:51:17.167 --> 00:51:25.247
in Business Insider, HuffPost, The Hill, ABC, MSNBC, Business Insider, and many more.

00:51:25.427 --> 00:51:30.047
Her mission is clear, to reshape the immigration system through advocacy,

00:51:30.527 --> 00:51:36.047
mentorship, and education, because immigration is not just about policies, it's about people.

00:51:36.047 --> 00:51:40.607
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:51:40.607 --> 00:51:43.087
on this podcast, Veronica Carcassio.

00:51:54.808 --> 00:51:59.488
All right, Veronica Cardenas. How you doing, ma'am? You doing good?

00:52:00.188 --> 00:52:04.528
I'm doing well today. How about you? I'm doing lovely, even more so because

00:52:04.528 --> 00:52:07.248
I've got someone with your expertise and passion,

00:52:07.788 --> 00:52:13.288
on the show to talk about your experience dealing with immigration law,

00:52:13.548 --> 00:52:15.428
especially during this time.

00:52:15.708 --> 00:52:19.328
So I'm really, really glad that you were able to make the time to do this.

00:52:19.328 --> 00:52:25.148
So I do a couple of things I call icebreakers to kind of start the interview.

00:52:25.728 --> 00:52:29.428
And the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.

00:52:30.128 --> 00:52:34.208
It says, immigration isn't just about policies, it's about people.

00:52:34.608 --> 00:52:38.788
Every immigrant story deserves to be heard, valued, and fought for.

00:52:39.048 --> 00:52:40.248
What does that quote mean to you?

00:52:40.688 --> 00:52:44.728
That that is the foundation of what immigration should be.

00:52:44.728 --> 00:52:52.688
And we have strayed so much from that to, you know, the way that we call immigrants,

00:52:53.068 --> 00:52:58.448
categorizing them by numbers and trying to just fit them into a policy. Yeah.

00:52:58.868 --> 00:53:06.828
Yeah. And I definitely understand that because when we when we get into bureaucracies

00:53:06.828 --> 00:53:10.608
and you've worked for the federal government, so you understand, you know,

00:53:10.668 --> 00:53:16.528
it's easy to try to lump human beings into a file folder,

00:53:16.988 --> 00:53:20.448
right, instead of dealing with them on a case by case basis.

00:53:20.448 --> 00:53:25.568
So I'm glad that you have that sensitivity to deal with that.

00:53:25.828 --> 00:53:29.828
Now, the other icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.

00:53:30.348 --> 00:53:33.188
So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

00:53:34.448 --> 00:53:41.848
All right. What do you consider the best way to stay informed about politics, current events, etc.?

00:53:44.730 --> 00:53:49.690
Read the news, watch the news, listen to podcasts.

00:53:50.390 --> 00:53:55.170
But the best way to stay informed if it's an issue you care so deeply about

00:53:55.170 --> 00:53:57.450
is to try to get that information firsthand.

00:53:58.350 --> 00:54:02.170
Because when you read it through someone else's experience, you're losing a

00:54:02.170 --> 00:54:04.230
part of that feel factor.

00:54:04.810 --> 00:54:10.150
And for example, if it's immigration specific, right, go to an immigration court

00:54:10.150 --> 00:54:11.850
hearing, sit in that hearing.

00:54:12.530 --> 00:54:20.410
Because then you can feel what it really is like to be a person in their in those shoes.

00:54:20.790 --> 00:54:25.290
And that's the only way I think change is going to happen. So try to get that

00:54:25.290 --> 00:54:26.290
information firsthand.

00:54:27.190 --> 00:54:32.190
Yeah. So why did you decide to practice immigration law? What motivated you

00:54:32.190 --> 00:54:35.010
to go into this specific area? Yeah.

00:54:35.658 --> 00:54:41.318
Think at the time it was much of a conscious choice. I went to law school because

00:54:41.318 --> 00:54:45.158
I was an English major in undergrad and I didn't want to graduate yet.

00:54:45.358 --> 00:54:49.218
And so I was like, what can I do to add some more years in school?

00:54:49.738 --> 00:54:54.438
And when I went to law school, I feel like that was the first time that I was

00:54:54.438 --> 00:54:56.778
really met with Crossroads.

00:54:57.078 --> 00:54:59.698
I had to, I almost failed my first year.

00:55:00.038 --> 00:55:03.378
And my, it was, it was in writing, legal writing.

00:55:03.598 --> 00:55:07.698
And my professor was like, you have to decide if you're going to continue pushing

00:55:07.698 --> 00:55:12.118
a car off a cliff, like a $50,000 car off the cliff, or if you're just going

00:55:12.118 --> 00:55:14.718
to give up and try to find something else to do.

00:55:15.598 --> 00:55:20.638
And at that point, you know, my parents supported me in every way that they

00:55:20.638 --> 00:55:22.738
could, but they weren't paying for me to go to law school.

00:55:23.018 --> 00:55:25.498
So I really had to think about that decision.

00:55:26.078 --> 00:55:30.838
And I decided I'm going to do this no matter what it takes.

00:55:31.338 --> 00:55:35.738
And so at that point, I was just, you know, studying, doing extra help,

00:55:35.838 --> 00:55:38.218
doing everything I could to make sure that my grades were where they needed

00:55:38.218 --> 00:55:40.398
to be so that I could continue going to law school.

00:55:40.758 --> 00:55:47.318
And through that process, I came across a friend who was working as an intern,

00:55:47.978 --> 00:55:52.538
in the office of the principal legal advisor, which are the attorneys for ICE.

00:55:52.938 --> 00:55:54.998
And he got me an internship there.

00:55:55.938 --> 00:56:00.858
I graduated around 2010 when there was a recession. There were no jobs.

00:56:01.678 --> 00:56:04.958
And so I came into my third year without a job.

00:56:05.418 --> 00:56:10.758
And it happened that at that year, my third year, because Homeland Security

00:56:10.758 --> 00:56:16.918
was still fairly new after it was created in 2001, they didn't yet have their own honors program.

00:56:16.918 --> 00:56:23.158
And so the year that I graduated was the year that they started the honors program, I applied, I got in.

00:56:23.238 --> 00:56:27.858
And so I was just happy to be working with the federal government and happy that I had a job.

00:56:28.718 --> 00:56:33.818
Yeah. Yeah. I understand. How complex is the immigration system?

00:56:33.818 --> 00:56:37.578
And do you think that level of complexity is fair?

00:56:39.079 --> 00:56:44.219
That is an excellent question. And I think the level of complexity is on purpose

00:56:44.219 --> 00:56:50.419
to make the system so difficult for people who want to follow the rules,

00:56:50.599 --> 00:56:52.339
like it sets them up for failure.

00:56:52.699 --> 00:56:56.659
And so every time I hear the public say, well, they should just do it the legal

00:56:56.659 --> 00:57:00.339
way. They should just wait online. Like, I wish it were that simple.

00:57:01.499 --> 00:57:05.679
People don't have a basic understanding of immigration law. They think,

00:57:05.939 --> 00:57:08.439
oh, I can just apply, wait and get it.

00:57:09.079 --> 00:57:12.899
And it's not that way. People don't understand that for asylum,

00:57:12.899 --> 00:57:18.059
it was something that was created after World War II, when America closed its

00:57:18.059 --> 00:57:20.999
doors to Jews who were fleeing persecution.

00:57:21.299 --> 00:57:26.999
And we said at that moment, no, you can't come in, because there were no asylum laws.

00:57:27.159 --> 00:57:29.439
And so the U.S.

00:57:29.619 --> 00:57:35.639
Joined many other countries in deciding that this was such a horrendous point

00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:42.039
in history that each country has to do their job in taking refugees from other

00:57:42.039 --> 00:57:43.799
countries when it's necessary.

00:57:44.199 --> 00:57:50.159
And the only way to claim asylum is literally being on U.S. soil.

00:57:50.419 --> 00:57:55.839
You can't claim asylum from the country where you're facing persecution.

00:57:56.339 --> 00:58:00.899
So that is a very big misunderstanding of asylum laws.

00:58:01.479 --> 00:58:08.919
So what else do you think average Americans get wrong about immigrants?

00:58:10.686 --> 00:58:13.706
Illegal part you know the first question that you the first statement

00:58:13.706 --> 00:58:17.246
you asked is like you know people versus policy

00:58:17.246 --> 00:58:19.986
unfortunately based on the

00:58:19.986 --> 00:58:23.386
color of your skin and where you were born your identity is

00:58:23.386 --> 00:58:26.506
political because no one

00:58:26.506 --> 00:58:29.906
americans don't have americans don't

00:58:29.906 --> 00:58:33.606
think to say maybe that person is allegedly illegal

00:58:33.606 --> 00:58:36.626
right like proven like you're innocent until

00:58:36.626 --> 00:58:39.966
proven guilty and immigration law that

00:58:39.966 --> 00:58:43.206
same level of understanding is

00:58:43.206 --> 00:58:47.026
not extended people are just guilty you're just illegal because

00:58:47.026 --> 00:58:54.066
you were born somewhere and so understanding that there is a pathway because

00:58:54.066 --> 00:58:59.026
you overstayed a visa or because you entered the united states that is only

00:58:59.026 --> 00:59:03.906
a fraction of the picture there's a whole big other picture which shows what

00:59:03.906 --> 00:59:06.806
is the defense to that which is U.S.

00:59:06.946 --> 00:59:12.406
Immigration law. And that's the part where I think Americans lose track of,

00:59:12.566 --> 00:59:14.546
lose sight of, maybe don't really understand.

00:59:14.966 --> 00:59:19.486
And so for them, it's an open and shut case. You came in, you overstayed your

00:59:19.486 --> 00:59:20.726
visa, now you're illegal.

00:59:21.866 --> 00:59:29.126
So you, excuse me, you were with Homeland Security as, I mean, security. Yeah.

00:59:29.746 --> 00:59:31.146
As a prosecutor.

00:59:31.846 --> 00:59:36.806
And in 23, you decided, yeah, enough of that.

00:59:37.186 --> 00:59:41.346
As somebody that was in the system and was dealing with a lot of those cases

00:59:41.346 --> 00:59:44.986
from the government standpoint, what made you decide that?

00:59:46.326 --> 00:59:50.186
No, I don't want to do that. I want to help people just go around.

00:59:50.326 --> 00:59:52.506
What kind of changed your mind?

00:59:53.226 --> 00:59:57.446
Yeah, the system, I started in 2010 under Obama.

00:59:58.266 --> 01:00:03.306
And I was in New York City, where a lot of the cases that were going forward

01:00:03.306 --> 01:00:05.786
through the immigration courts, they were winning their cases.

01:00:06.566 --> 01:00:13.126
There was prosecutorial discretion. Obama had ran on, were prosecuting felons,

01:00:13.126 --> 01:00:16.866
not families, not children, not mom and pops.

01:00:17.066 --> 01:00:21.506
And that was true in New York City. I can only speak because every jurisdiction is different.

01:00:21.986 --> 01:00:24.746
But where I was at the time, that was the case.

01:00:24.846 --> 01:00:29.786
We were closing out cases for people who didn't have relief because they also

01:00:29.786 --> 01:00:30.966
should not have been deported.

01:00:31.826 --> 01:00:36.026
And cases were being granted to those who should be granted cases.

01:00:36.286 --> 01:00:40.386
And I know a lot of people say, well, on the flip side, Obama deported over

01:00:40.386 --> 01:00:42.086
2 million people. And that's true.

01:00:42.406 --> 01:00:47.366
And it's not a perfect system. It was never a perfect system, but it was more humane.

01:00:47.506 --> 01:00:52.906
At least we were able to consider a person, not just for one snapshot in time

01:00:52.906 --> 01:00:58.366
of how they crossed into the U.S., but what life have they built here? Do they have children?

01:00:58.626 --> 01:01:02.746
What equities? Do they have businesses, right? We could take that person as a whole.

01:01:03.486 --> 01:01:07.066
Once Trump came into office, that's when everything changed.

01:01:07.446 --> 01:01:12.886
And now it was a one size fits all. So it didn't matter if a person was 15 years

01:01:12.886 --> 01:01:17.686
old, crossed the border at two years old with his family, he was being treated

01:01:17.686 --> 01:01:21.906
the same way as someone who was like a drug trafficker.

01:01:23.091 --> 01:01:31.011
That just felt very unfair. It also felt during that time that the cases were already prejudged.

01:01:31.571 --> 01:01:37.871
The law was built to deny. And so judges couldn't decide on the merits of each

01:01:37.871 --> 01:01:40.311
case. They couldn't consider that person as a whole.

01:01:40.511 --> 01:01:45.311
And at the same time, trial attorneys, the prosecutors, we no longer had that

01:01:45.311 --> 01:01:46.691
discretion that we once had.

01:01:47.051 --> 01:01:51.531
Every case had to go forward, whether it was a 16-year-old without a lawyer

01:01:51.531 --> 01:01:55.391
or, you know, the drug trafficker. They were being treated the same.

01:01:55.591 --> 01:02:03.431
And at that point is when it really, it really was painful to be in a position where you had to say,

01:02:03.611 --> 01:02:11.091
I'm opposing relief in every case, because I didn't feel like legally that was the right thing to do.

01:02:11.871 --> 01:02:17.811
And that lasted four years. It was very difficult to work in that administration.

01:02:18.851 --> 01:02:24.751
I Feel like when I started My career in 2010 straight out of law school.

01:02:24.851 --> 01:02:29.071
I was so young my mindset at the time was I'm going to work for the government.

01:02:29.451 --> 01:02:33.431
I'm going to eventually become a judge And then i'll retire get my pension.

01:02:33.611 --> 01:02:38.511
That was my plan When trump became president working at the under that administration,

01:02:38.711 --> 01:02:43.511
it kind of threw a wrench in my plan and I tried to hold on because you know,

01:02:43.631 --> 01:02:50.831
you think of your years of service This will pass And then after that administration

01:02:50.831 --> 01:02:58.031
biden came in and covet hit and You know the world shut down for me,

01:02:58.151 --> 01:03:04.111
it was reevaluating what's important and I felt like.

01:03:05.384 --> 01:03:12.424
Matter how the system would change, it could not change to the place where it

01:03:12.424 --> 01:03:16.464
was before under Obama, because Trump had already done too much damage.

01:03:17.244 --> 01:03:21.644
And that's when I really realized that change is not going to come from the

01:03:21.644 --> 01:03:23.484
inside, it's going to come from the outside.

01:03:23.924 --> 01:03:26.464
And I want to be on the side of change.

01:03:27.524 --> 01:03:33.064
Yeah. During my brief time being an immigration law paralegal,

01:03:33.384 --> 01:03:42.224
you know, I I went, you know, I went down to New Orleans with our attorney to sit in on cases.

01:03:42.984 --> 01:03:50.284
You know, I had to go to Gina, Louisiana, to actually tour the detention facility, all that stuff.

01:03:50.444 --> 01:03:55.624
But the thing that bothered me was when we had to look in the Department of

01:03:55.624 --> 01:04:00.324
State and look into the visa thing and just see that, you know,

01:04:00.404 --> 01:04:02.564
a lot of people just became,

01:04:02.724 --> 01:04:07.584
made me realize that a lot of people had filed their documents like they were supposed to,

01:04:07.844 --> 01:04:12.564
but because they didn't fall into a certain category, they got caught up in the quota.

01:04:13.344 --> 01:04:20.024
And so it's like, you know, you could have filed, and this was in the early

01:04:20.024 --> 01:04:21.504
2000s when I was doing it.

01:04:21.644 --> 01:04:30.044
So let's just say you filed in 2007 and the State Department hadn't gotten to

01:04:30.044 --> 01:04:32.484
the year 2004 yet, right?

01:04:32.904 --> 01:04:37.404
So, you know, it's like there's a lot of people that file their paperwork,

01:04:37.404 --> 01:04:43.364
but for whatever reason, their case hasn't even been heard yet.

01:04:43.424 --> 01:04:51.204
Their application hasn't even been reviewed yet. So how can we fix that problem? How can we...

01:04:52.394 --> 01:04:55.374
But, you know, because there were some countries that was like maybe two or

01:04:55.374 --> 01:04:58.894
three years and other countries that were like 10. So how do we fix that?

01:04:59.754 --> 01:05:04.174
Yeah. And when I think about the immigration problem, it's a balance.

01:05:04.454 --> 01:05:09.714
It's a scale. On one side, you have the pathways to relief, like people who

01:05:09.714 --> 01:05:12.694
are married, people who have children here,

01:05:13.034 --> 01:05:21.194
like people who can adjust based on family or work or a humanitarian purpose.

01:05:21.194 --> 01:05:25.254
And then on the other side of that scale, you have deportation proceedings.

01:05:25.794 --> 01:05:31.254
In a perfect world, one where immigration actually means something,

01:05:31.694 --> 01:05:38.594
those scales need to be balanced. People who have a means to lawfully stay in the U.S.

01:05:39.414 --> 01:05:43.734
Should be able to go through that without having a deportation process,

01:05:43.734 --> 01:05:49.814
just come snatch them up and say, too bad, you don't have relief right now.

01:05:50.694 --> 01:05:52.854
That has to be balanced. That has to be changed.

01:05:54.420 --> 01:05:58.500
Are ways to do that. And Biden did try some ways to do that,

01:05:58.760 --> 01:06:05.620
like offering people who are married to a lawful permanent resident or U.S.

01:06:06.020 --> 01:06:11.940
Citizen to temporarily stay here with protection while USCIS,

01:06:12.140 --> 01:06:15.280
which is the agency in charge of that, or the Department of State,

01:06:16.120 --> 01:06:17.920
figures out the visa issue.

01:06:18.040 --> 01:06:23.720
Because the visa issue and the allotment of those visas, I think what you said

01:06:23.720 --> 01:06:25.980
was like really good. It was like the quota problem.

01:06:26.840 --> 01:06:31.320
That has been an issue that has not been updated since like the 60s.

01:06:31.640 --> 01:06:34.880
And so we're really running on an outdated system.

01:06:35.560 --> 01:06:41.140
No politician has wanted to touch immigration because of the reality that illegal

01:06:41.140 --> 01:06:45.900
immigration pays. everyone benefits from illegal immigration.

01:06:46.300 --> 01:06:52.460
They're here when there's work shortages, when people don't want to pay full price for things.

01:06:52.600 --> 01:06:56.940
You find someone who could do it for a fraction of the cost,

01:06:57.200 --> 01:06:59.640
pay them under the table, that saves.

01:07:00.140 --> 01:07:05.240
And then when there's times like this where someone is coming into office and

01:07:05.240 --> 01:07:09.140
now everybody's upset with immigration or they're upset about the price of things.

01:07:09.320 --> 01:07:14.340
They're upset that with the economy, immigration saves the day again saying,

01:07:14.580 --> 01:07:15.680
okay, it's their problem.

01:07:15.960 --> 01:07:17.760
Now we're going to be tough on immigration.

01:07:18.060 --> 01:07:22.640
And being tough on immigration also raises poll numbers in the past.

01:07:22.940 --> 01:07:26.160
Like right now we're seeing that the way that this administration has been dealing

01:07:26.160 --> 01:07:27.940
with enforcement is not favored,

01:07:27.960 --> 01:07:37.840
but every presidency has not had the focus to really solve the issue because

01:07:37.840 --> 01:07:40.380
it wasn't an issue that America wanted to solve.

01:07:41.200 --> 01:07:46.140
Obama tried, like Obama tried with, and so many people with the DREAMers Act,

01:07:46.300 --> 01:07:49.360
people who've been brought to this country who have studied here since they

01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:52.060
were young, at least give them a pathway.

01:07:52.200 --> 01:07:54.520
If we're going to carve it for someone, carve it for the children.

01:07:54.740 --> 01:07:57.080
And that failed in Congress.

01:07:58.408 --> 01:08:02.368
Yeah. And even, you know, you said study is like, you know, some of them have

01:08:02.368 --> 01:08:06.508
joined the military and have served and defended our country.

01:08:06.988 --> 01:08:13.108
And it would just seem like that would be a no brainer to reward somebody who

01:08:13.108 --> 01:08:16.848
at least signed up for for service to the country.

01:08:17.028 --> 01:08:20.148
But I guess we can go down the weeds on that one.

01:08:21.418 --> 01:08:25.318
In my bed in The Guardian, you stated that the government is sanctioning a culture

01:08:25.318 --> 01:08:31.678
of fear where teachers, neighbors, and even classmates feel justified in weaponizing deportation.

01:08:31.918 --> 01:08:36.558
So do you think the level of force being shown to enforce a misdemeanor charge

01:08:36.558 --> 01:08:38.798
of being undocumented is excessive?

01:08:39.078 --> 01:08:43.898
And what are some ways for citizens and immigrants to stand up against it?

01:08:44.638 --> 01:08:49.498
Yeah, I definitely think that the use of force right now is excessive.

01:08:50.418 --> 01:08:53.118
We are seeing you know

01:08:53.118 --> 01:08:56.998
I try to take small doses of the

01:08:56.998 --> 01:09:03.378
videos the media because I see this every day in my day-to-day and it's I didn't

01:09:03.378 --> 01:09:07.318
I didn't really actually realize how much it was infecting me until one day

01:09:07.318 --> 01:09:12.318
a client was telling me how scared he was to show up for an interview because

01:09:12.318 --> 01:09:15.898
he thought he was going to be detained and the chances of him being detained were high,

01:09:16.678 --> 01:09:23.718
and so It's hard not to take on other people's fear And it's hard not to let that affect you.

01:09:23.738 --> 01:09:27.178
You know, I can't like switch it off and then go home to my family and be like nothing happened.

01:09:28.338 --> 01:09:34.438
When I wrote that that was like I think just as trump was coming in or during like early trump,

01:09:35.258 --> 01:09:39.998
And I see that yes, there was a lot of people turning in on each other,

01:09:40.478 --> 01:09:45.198
But now I see that there's also a lot of good and americans like Like,

01:09:45.298 --> 01:09:50.138
you know, running human chains so that when people exit schools,

01:09:50.158 --> 01:09:54.118
they're not going to be picked up or their children are not going to be separated in those places.

01:09:55.078 --> 01:10:02.578
So I do have a lot of hope for America now. And we see in Chicago that.

01:10:03.611 --> 01:10:10.031
Like chief officer there who's having to go to court every day at 6 p.m.

01:10:10.271 --> 01:10:15.971
To tell the federal judge that the use of force is appropriate because they

01:10:15.971 --> 01:10:19.691
were throwing like tear gas at

01:10:19.691 --> 01:10:24.531
children when they were on the way to a Halloween parade at their school.

01:10:25.291 --> 01:10:35.111
They are shooting pellets at pastors they are pulling people out of cars where

01:10:35.111 --> 01:10:38.071
with such force that their ribs are broken.

01:10:39.558 --> 01:10:43.338
And when I see comments to those stories like, well, why didn't that person

01:10:43.338 --> 01:10:46.378
just get out of the car? Why didn't they just walk away?

01:10:46.958 --> 01:10:51.238
That is the wrong question to ask. The question to ask is,

01:10:51.438 --> 01:11:03.358
why does ICE or CBP, no other federal agency has that level of like a hall pass to be like,

01:11:04.038 --> 01:11:07.958
no, any other agency does that. there's an investigation being opened.

01:11:08.298 --> 01:11:11.098
There's looking into how did this happen?

01:11:12.218 --> 01:11:16.678
ICE has had a hall pass for so long that they don't feel like they have to justify that.

01:11:16.798 --> 01:11:22.378
And so holding them to these standards, this federal judge, this decision is

01:11:22.378 --> 01:11:24.158
something that we should all be looking at.

01:11:24.338 --> 01:11:30.838
She ordered CDP and ICE to wear cameras on them because also like the stories

01:11:30.838 --> 01:11:35.478
don't match up, where there was this one man who dropped off his children at

01:11:35.478 --> 01:11:38.178
school and he was driving, he was shot to death in his car.

01:11:38.638 --> 01:11:42.378
And CBP said that, or ICE had said that he tried to run them over,

01:11:42.578 --> 01:11:45.418
but now evidence is showing that that's not true.

01:11:45.638 --> 01:11:51.038
And so America does need to be curious right now and to see what is the truth.

01:11:51.538 --> 01:11:57.998
And the way that we do that collectively is by filming when we see some injustice happen.

01:11:58.318 --> 01:12:02.918
Film it and post it because one person can be filming from another angle,

01:12:03.138 --> 01:12:07.118
you film from another angle, and then in the end, all those angles are important

01:12:07.118 --> 01:12:10.478
if that person brings forward a case in federal court.

01:12:10.778 --> 01:12:15.498
I know New York has also started to do that and they have a database where people

01:12:15.498 --> 01:12:20.558
can post their footage or post it on social media because these are real-time

01:12:20.558 --> 01:12:25.058
accounts and even if they're not used in a federal court, at least our children,

01:12:25.578 --> 01:12:29.838
the people that come after us will be able to see what happened during this time.

01:12:31.131 --> 01:12:37.331
So I'm still trying to wonder how the Border Patrol is actually in Chicago,

01:12:37.331 --> 01:12:41.211
because I was under the impression that the Border Patrol cannot,

01:12:41.571 --> 01:12:48.351
their jurisdiction was no more than 100 miles from the American border.

01:12:48.931 --> 01:12:54.651
And Chicago is not a border city. How are they even getting around that?

01:12:55.591 --> 01:12:58.951
Yeah. And that is an excellent point. And I think that's something we're all

01:12:58.951 --> 01:13:01.151
thinking about and wondering.

01:13:01.771 --> 01:13:04.851
CBP is supposed to be stationed at the borders and at the airport.

01:13:05.091 --> 01:13:10.731
They are in charge of anything coming in and leaving the U.S. That is their job.

01:13:11.531 --> 01:13:14.451
This administration and and because

01:13:14.451 --> 01:13:17.851
that's their job they have a great authority

01:13:17.851 --> 01:13:20.691
they can arrest without a warrant like

01:13:20.691 --> 01:13:23.831
we're all discussing ice's you know administrative warrant

01:13:23.831 --> 01:13:26.771
they don't even need that they can search anyone even

01:13:26.771 --> 01:13:29.951
an american citizen they can go through their phone they can search the

01:13:29.951 --> 01:13:33.771
authority that they have at the border is so great and

01:13:33.771 --> 01:13:37.191
there's little oversight if they you know

01:13:37.191 --> 01:13:39.891
violate someone's rights the fact that they're going

01:13:39.891 --> 01:13:43.431
to get sued or reprimanded is very low and

01:13:43.431 --> 01:13:48.051
so the trump administration is bringing that culture like we've already seen

01:13:48.051 --> 01:13:53.311
the damage from ice but cbp is another level and they're bringing that to our

01:13:53.311 --> 01:13:59.551
backyards to our schools to our churches to me this is intentional and i we

01:13:59.551 --> 01:14:03.331
don't know exactly yet how this administration plans to use this,

01:14:03.491 --> 01:14:11.031
but I feel from everything that I've been seeing is that this administration is trying to.

01:14:12.767 --> 01:14:19.127
Those authorities that CBB can exercise at the border into the U.S.,

01:14:19.127 --> 01:14:25.327
where there is going to be this, I can arrest you and nothing will happen because of X, Y, Z.

01:14:25.947 --> 01:14:32.087
We are also seeing this in new immigration cases, where people who have been living in the U.S.

01:14:32.187 --> 01:14:36.667
For 20 years are really getting stopped. They're Amazon drivers.

01:14:36.967 --> 01:14:39.887
The trucks are getting stopped. They're being asked for identification.

01:14:39.987 --> 01:14:43.747
When they show a license, they're like, no, I need to see your papers. Do you have a passport?

01:14:44.027 --> 01:14:48.207
Do you have a green card? I need to see it. And then if they don't produce it,

01:14:48.307 --> 01:14:49.047
they're being arrested.

01:14:49.607 --> 01:14:55.747
We know that there's over 146 hundred people that have been arrested,

01:14:55.927 --> 01:14:58.487
American citizens who have been arrested and caught up in this.

01:14:58.807 --> 01:15:02.087
And so it's unclear how they're doing it.

01:15:02.727 --> 01:15:07.847
We're pushing back in federal courts, but federal courts take time to issue decisions.

01:15:08.987 --> 01:15:15.727
Yeah. What are your thoughts on the H-1B visas, the fees being raised?

01:15:17.043 --> 01:15:21.683
That that is very sad because

01:15:21.683 --> 01:15:24.383
there's a lot of people that would qualify for that where

01:15:24.383 --> 01:15:27.343
employers would love to sponsor them and now

01:15:27.343 --> 01:15:30.143
because of the fees they can't do that or they're

01:15:30.143 --> 01:15:34.843
not willing to do that and so that means that there's a whole class of people

01:15:34.843 --> 01:15:40.883
now who would have otherwise had status are now going to be left in limbo and

01:15:40.883 --> 01:15:47.543
either self-deport or try to find another way to adjust their status.

01:15:47.963 --> 01:15:54.803
So have you lost any clients because of the fees being raised or y'all working through?

01:15:56.463 --> 01:16:04.063
I don't do H-1Bs, but I have had a lot of referrals from people who would have

01:16:04.063 --> 01:16:07.603
had an H-1B, but now their employer doesn't want to sponsor them.

01:16:07.763 --> 01:16:09.203
They've been living in the U.S.

01:16:09.363 --> 01:16:13.503
For years, and now they're trying to find an alternative. I got you.

01:16:14.123 --> 01:16:19.943
All right. So So what would you who would you like to have a one on one meeting

01:16:19.943 --> 01:16:21.423
with concerning immigration?

01:16:21.843 --> 01:16:25.483
Stephen Miller, Kristi Noem or President Trump?

01:16:25.823 --> 01:16:30.343
And what would you say to them to try and relax their hardline position?

01:16:31.843 --> 01:16:35.283
That was a really interesting question, and I had to think about this one.

01:16:36.483 --> 01:16:43.303
And I feel when there's an issue of values, you can't change people's minds.

01:16:44.103 --> 01:16:50.463
If I were to walk into a conversation with any of them, they would just be talking

01:16:50.463 --> 01:16:54.783
to talk because they like to be right and they like to hear themselves talk.

01:16:54.963 --> 01:17:00.523
They don't care about Americans. They don't care about humanity.

01:17:01.243 --> 01:17:04.483
Wasn't known the one that like killed the dog

01:17:04.483 --> 01:17:08.083
killed her dog yeah like you

01:17:08.083 --> 01:17:13.763
know to be sitting in a room with someone who can be so heinous for me is just

01:17:13.763 --> 01:17:21.363
it would be a waste of my time and it would drain my energy and instead i feel

01:17:21.363 --> 01:17:26.083
like the people that i would want to talk to are college students,

01:17:26.363 --> 01:17:31.163
are Americans who are on the fence, because I've had people come to me like

01:17:31.163 --> 01:17:33.543
with all these rates that are going on in warehouses.

01:17:34.363 --> 01:17:37.683
There was this one person who was writing a story and she called me and she

01:17:37.683 --> 01:17:40.063
was like, I'm trying to understand this.

01:17:40.543 --> 01:17:47.423
They had a warrant for one person. They arrested 596 people. How does that happen?

01:17:48.043 --> 01:17:52.323
And she was really trying to understand because when she called DHS,

01:17:52.483 --> 01:17:55.103
DHS told them we had a tip.

01:17:55.323 --> 01:17:58.043
All of these people are working illegally. We needed to arrest anybody.

01:17:58.263 --> 01:18:03.403
And then when she asked if they had a warrant, this was during the early stages

01:18:03.403 --> 01:18:06.663
where Trump was like, we're only going after the worst of the worst.

01:18:07.123 --> 01:18:12.003
Like I think one person who they had a warrant had a crime. No one else had a crime.

01:18:12.683 --> 01:18:17.983
And so she was really trying to understand. And those are the people I want to talk to,

01:18:17.983 --> 01:18:22.063
The people who are really trying to understand and make sense of this because

01:18:22.063 --> 01:18:25.823
they hear one thing and then they're seeing all the stuff that's going on and

01:18:25.823 --> 01:18:28.783
they don't know what where the truth is.

01:18:29.043 --> 01:18:31.303
Those are the people that I want to speak to.

01:18:32.743 --> 01:18:35.703
So before I get to my last question, I do want to ask you this.

01:18:35.883 --> 01:18:40.303
So when you, during the 24 campaign, immigration came up a lot.

01:18:40.763 --> 01:18:45.403
And, you know, the president said, you know, certain groups of immigrants were

01:18:45.403 --> 01:18:49.443
eating animals and pets, actually.

01:18:50.063 --> 01:18:54.443
And, you know, they had a whole convention where everybody was sitting in the

01:18:54.443 --> 01:18:56.883
aisle saying mass deportation now. Wow.

01:18:57.203 --> 01:19:01.383
As somebody that does this work for a living and having worked on both sides,

01:19:01.603 --> 01:19:04.703
what was your gut reaction to that?

01:19:04.803 --> 01:19:07.943
Did that make you angry? Did that make you more resolved?

01:19:08.323 --> 01:19:15.183
How did you approach it where, you know, now to be in the state where you are?

01:19:15.323 --> 01:19:18.903
What was your thought process during that whole campaign?

01:19:19.703 --> 01:19:26.363
I felt like I saw 10 steps ahead. I knew where this type of attitude was going to lead us.

01:19:26.523 --> 01:19:30.263
And that's why I took to writing and I started to write about this issue because,

01:19:31.223 --> 01:19:32.883
history does repeat itself.

01:19:33.063 --> 01:19:38.403
And when we look past history in the U.S., every time there's this sentiment

01:19:38.403 --> 01:19:43.143
of blaming, of animosity towards the other, right?

01:19:43.263 --> 01:19:48.163
We've had different races, different countries be recycled through who the other

01:19:48.163 --> 01:19:51.723
is and who's going to be the scapegoat at this point.

01:19:53.683 --> 01:20:00.323
A lot of anger, a lot of violence, a lot of divisiveness within our nation.

01:20:00.543 --> 01:20:05.543
And so I knew at that point that we were heading here, if this administration

01:20:05.543 --> 01:20:14.863
was going to win, especially because what he had started in the first term, a lot of the things,

01:20:15.063 --> 01:20:18.123
a lot of the decisions, we were like, this is so illegal.

01:20:18.503 --> 01:20:22.483
Like he would like the Muslim ban the first one he wrote. It took them like

01:20:22.483 --> 01:20:23.783
three tries to get it right.

01:20:24.183 --> 01:20:28.043
The first one, when I read it, I was still working at Homeland Security and

01:20:28.043 --> 01:20:29.963
I was like, this can't be real.

01:20:30.183 --> 01:20:35.463
Like we didn't even get like an inbox, you know, an email saying, Hey, this just passed.

01:20:35.643 --> 01:20:39.443
Stop people at the airports. Cause it was just like, it just hit.

01:20:39.643 --> 01:20:42.963
And agents are like, what is this? What do we do with this council?

01:20:43.243 --> 01:20:46.003
And I'm like, this seems illegal.

01:20:46.303 --> 01:20:49.163
Like, what am I supposed to tell people to do?

01:20:49.243 --> 01:20:52.043
Like based on an unlawful something that just

01:20:52.043 --> 01:20:55.183
sounded so unlawful it did get struck down but I

01:20:55.183 --> 01:20:58.903
could see where we were going and I could see that this administration

01:20:58.903 --> 01:21:01.983
was going to push the boundaries as far as they could which

01:21:01.983 --> 01:21:05.123
is what's happening so I didn't think

01:21:05.123 --> 01:21:12.943
that it would be so bad so fast it's been a rough few months every day something

01:21:12.943 --> 01:21:19.563
changes and so having a community where you can lean on has been very helpful

01:21:19.563 --> 01:21:22.003
because no one's getting through this alone.

01:21:22.363 --> 01:21:26.643
Like you need to lean on your community right now, whatever issue is important

01:21:26.643 --> 01:21:28.583
to you, that's affecting you.

01:21:28.763 --> 01:21:34.283
Like there's so many, right? Like LGBTQ plus people just lost SNAP benefits.

01:21:34.283 --> 01:21:40.123
Like there's parts of this administration that's going to touch people in different ways.

01:21:40.243 --> 01:21:46.303
For me, it's, it's immigration, but just lean on your community and stand with each other right now.

01:21:46.863 --> 01:21:49.903
All right. So I want to close this out on something positive.

01:21:50.183 --> 01:21:55.323
Talk to the audience about the concept of humanigration and the work that you're

01:21:55.323 --> 01:21:56.723
doing around that concept.

01:21:58.103 --> 01:22:02.703
So when I was at ICE, I saw that people who are going through the system,

01:22:02.963 --> 01:22:05.523
because it's so complex, really didn't understand it.

01:22:05.623 --> 01:22:09.883
Even when they had lawyers, they, you know, people don't generally know how to testify.

01:22:10.143 --> 01:22:14.003
People don't generally understand what the judge wants, especially when you

01:22:14.003 --> 01:22:14.983
don't speak that language.

01:22:15.343 --> 01:22:19.303
There's an interpretation going, but sometimes you may not even understand that

01:22:19.303 --> 01:22:20.763
because it's moving so fast.

01:22:21.163 --> 01:22:26.223
And so, you know, like a regular first hearing, master calendar hearing can

01:22:26.223 --> 01:22:29.923
last two minutes. and all that time is talking. So it's very complicated.

01:22:30.063 --> 01:22:34.083
So I wanted to create a system where people who were going through the process

01:22:34.083 --> 01:22:35.323
could actually understand it.

01:22:35.403 --> 01:22:39.243
We could slow it down so that they understood what was required of them.

01:22:39.543 --> 01:22:46.423
And then also through that, I started to come across lawyers who needed mentorship, who needed help.

01:22:46.663 --> 01:22:49.563
And so that's how Humanigration was born.

01:22:50.223 --> 01:22:55.923
I mentor new lawyers who are looking to make the transition and even older lawyers,

01:22:56.043 --> 01:22:58.143
veteran lawyers, who just want to work in community.

01:22:58.423 --> 01:23:02.883
We have a large community now. We talk to each other.

01:23:03.123 --> 01:23:07.303
We help each other, you know, because it is a very difficult field.

01:23:07.443 --> 01:23:09.103
Things are moving so fast.

01:23:09.983 --> 01:23:17.123
So it's been great. Like I've had a lot of good connections through that mentorship program.

01:23:17.383 --> 01:23:23.303
Now, have you been, have you encountered people who say were licensed lawyers

01:23:23.303 --> 01:23:27.623
in other countries and for some reason they're now admitted to the bar.

01:23:27.623 --> 01:23:33.743
Have you been working with those individuals to kind of help out with.

01:23:34.878 --> 01:23:39.438
Not necessarily your firm, but, you know, kind of helping them get along?

01:23:39.578 --> 01:23:44.418
Because we had situations like that in Mississippi where we had people who went

01:23:44.418 --> 01:23:45.878
to law school in Mexico and for

01:23:45.878 --> 01:23:49.858
some reason they couldn't pass the bar and then they get hired by a firm.

01:23:50.038 --> 01:23:55.598
And so their job is paralegal, but they're just as qualified as any other attorney

01:23:55.598 --> 01:23:57.498
that we're working with at the firm.

01:23:57.698 --> 01:24:02.218
Have you encountered that and you incorporating them into this process? Yeah.

01:24:02.793 --> 01:24:06.813
I generally work with either lawyers or people who are going through the process.

01:24:07.053 --> 01:24:10.593
But with lawyers in the law firms, like a lot of lawyers are like,

01:24:10.653 --> 01:24:12.173
well, can you train staff, right?

01:24:12.333 --> 01:24:16.493
Because the paralegals need to know what's going on in court so that their applications

01:24:16.493 --> 01:24:19.013
can be stronger. So the statements can be stronger.

01:24:19.233 --> 01:24:24.333
And so, yes, we work with like the whole firm and anyone who wants to join.

01:24:24.533 --> 01:24:29.273
We the classes are through a three month time period. We meet every Fridays.

01:24:29.273 --> 01:24:34.613
And so it's like for an hour and a half, you know, you're with a group of like 12 people.

01:24:35.333 --> 01:24:40.853
Everyone's learning, asking questions. So it is good to learn in community like that.

01:24:41.333 --> 01:24:47.593
So is this a nonprofit separate from your firm or is this incorporated in what your firm does?

01:24:48.133 --> 01:24:52.073
Yeah, it's a it's a for profit, but it's separated from my firm.

01:24:52.253 --> 01:24:57.693
So my firm is Cardenas Immigration Law and then the educational platform is Humanigration.

01:24:58.233 --> 01:25:03.033
So right now I'm also starting to do videos about like the whole court process

01:25:03.033 --> 01:25:08.573
so that people can like go to YouTube and look at that video and find out like

01:25:08.573 --> 01:25:10.013
I have a master calendar.

01:25:10.233 --> 01:25:12.773
What does that even mean? What questions am I going to be asked?

01:25:12.953 --> 01:25:15.253
And it'll give you like a breakdown about that.

01:25:15.393 --> 01:25:18.433
Or if you're preparing for like your trial date, your merits,

01:25:18.653 --> 01:25:20.313
how do I prepare for that?

01:25:20.413 --> 01:25:26.333
What evidence do I need? So if people want to get plugged into what you're doing,

01:25:26.333 --> 01:25:32.913
either at the law firm or with Humanigration, or just want to reach out to you, how can they do that?

01:25:33.253 --> 01:25:38.393
They could visit Humanigration.com. There I have all my contact information.

01:25:38.593 --> 01:25:41.493
Also, they could follow me on Instagram at Humanigration.

01:25:42.633 --> 01:25:47.533
Contact info is all on there. Well, Veronica Cardenas, again,

01:25:47.853 --> 01:25:50.453
I've stated before, you're doing the Lord's work.

01:25:50.453 --> 01:25:57.573
As somebody that tries to be balanced. I've had people who have been Border

01:25:57.573 --> 01:26:01.053
Patrol agents, not proponents of...

01:26:02.407 --> 01:26:10.087
Immigration, but I have a soft spot for people who are trying to do the right

01:26:10.087 --> 01:26:16.167
thing and get people in the right way and to help them navigate through this process,

01:26:16.167 --> 01:26:19.667
which has gotten much worse in this current time we're in.

01:26:19.887 --> 01:26:24.427
So like I said, again, you're doing the Lord's work, and it's really an honor

01:26:24.427 --> 01:26:28.607
to meet you, and it's even more of an honor for you to come on the podcast. I appreciate it.

01:26:29.147 --> 01:26:31.567
I appreciate that so much. Thank you so much for the invite.

01:26:32.207 --> 01:26:33.267
All right, guys, we're going to catch.

01:26:53.209 --> 01:26:59.329
All right, we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, John Bonifaz.

01:26:59.749 --> 01:27:06.929
John Bonifaz is a constitutional attorney and the co-founder and president of Free Speech for People.

01:27:07.469 --> 01:27:12.089
Mr. Bonifaz previously served as executive director and general counsel of the

01:27:12.089 --> 01:27:17.289
National Voting Rights Institute, an organization he founded in 1994 and as

01:27:17.289 --> 01:27:21.589
the Legal Director of Voter Action, a national election integrity organization.

01:27:22.409 --> 01:27:27.129
He has been at the forefront of key voting rights and democracy campaigns in

01:27:27.129 --> 01:27:29.029
the United States for more than three decades.

01:27:29.789 --> 01:27:35.109
Mr. Bonifaz, work has included pioneering a series of court challenges,

01:27:35.529 --> 01:27:40.809
applying political equality principles that have helped to redefine the campaign

01:27:40.809 --> 01:27:44.409
finance question as a basic voting rights issue of our time,

01:27:44.929 --> 01:27:49.889
helping to lead key election protection cases across the country and helping

01:27:49.889 --> 01:27:56.649
to lead historical legal challenges under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment to

01:27:56.649 --> 01:27:59.429
insurrectionists seeking to run for re-election.

01:27:59.589 --> 01:28:04.989
He is the co-author with former American University law professor and now Congressman

01:28:04.989 --> 01:28:08.549
Jamie Raskin of two seminal law review articles.

01:28:10.149 --> 01:28:15.529
At Yale Law and Policy Review in 1993 and one at Columbia Law Review in 1994,

01:28:15.529 --> 01:28:21.089
and of the wealth primary campaign fundraising in the Constitution,

01:28:21.109 --> 01:28:25.729
which all argue that the current campaign finance system violates the equal

01:28:25.729 --> 01:28:28.769
protection rights of non-wealthy candidates and voters.

01:28:29.689 --> 01:28:37.049
Mr. Bonifaz is the co-author with Ron Fine and Ben Clements of The Constitution

01:28:37.049 --> 01:28:41.989
Demands It, the case for the Impeachment of Donald Trump, published in 2018,

01:28:42.469 --> 01:28:44.369
with a foreword by John Nichols.

01:28:44.889 --> 01:28:50.229
Mr. Bonifaz is also the author of Warrior King, published by Nation Books in 2004,

01:28:51.129 --> 01:28:55.829
with a foreword by the late Congressman John Conyers Jr., with chronicles the

01:28:55.829 --> 01:29:00.649
2003 case in which he served as lead counsel challenging the U.S.

01:29:01.029 --> 01:29:06.249
Military invasion of Iraq as illegal under the War Powers Clause of the U.S.

01:29:06.369 --> 01:29:12.669
Constitution. Mr. Bonifaz has also served as co-counsel in international human

01:29:12.669 --> 01:29:14.729
rights and environmental litigation,

01:29:15.109 --> 01:29:20.549
including litigation to hold the Chevron Texaco Oil Company accountable for

01:29:20.549 --> 01:29:24.269
its widespread destruction of the Ecuadorian Amazon.

01:29:24.749 --> 01:29:31.349
Mr. Bonifaz is a 1992 cum laude graduate of Harvard Law School and a 1999 recipient

01:29:31.349 --> 01:29:33.729
of a MacArthur Foundation Fellowship.

01:29:33.729 --> 01:29:38.069
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

01:29:38.069 --> 01:29:41.369
on this podcast, John Boniface.

01:29:52.508 --> 01:29:57.528
All right. John Bonifaz. Bonifaz. How you doing, sir? You doing good?

01:29:58.108 --> 01:30:02.468
I'm doing well. Thanks so much for having me, Eric. Well, it's an honor to have

01:30:02.468 --> 01:30:10.148
you on and especially to talk about a lot of the issues that your organization is diving into.

01:30:10.428 --> 01:30:15.828
I checked out your website and stuff and I said, yeah, it's pretty, pretty.

01:30:16.228 --> 01:30:18.468
Well, I won't say radical, but pretty aggressive.

01:30:19.388 --> 01:30:23.948
That was a pretty aggressive agenda. Kind of reminds me of me when I was in

01:30:23.948 --> 01:30:28.608
the legislature. I used to introduce like 150 bills a year when I was in the

01:30:28.608 --> 01:30:31.528
legislature. So I like people to have ideas.

01:30:32.188 --> 01:30:37.868
So, John, we're going to start off the interview like I normally do with guests,

01:30:38.268 --> 01:30:40.468
with what we call an icebreaker segment.

01:30:40.728 --> 01:30:45.068
So the first part of the icebreaker segment is that I need you to respond to a quote.

01:30:45.688 --> 01:30:50.788
Okay. All right. So here's your quote. The pressing question before the nation

01:30:50.788 --> 01:30:57.248
today is whether it is we the people or we the corporations and big money interests.

01:30:57.628 --> 01:31:03.308
This is not a Democratic issue or Republican issue. This is a deeply American issue.

01:31:03.588 --> 01:31:08.488
Whatever our political differences may be, we all share the common vision of

01:31:08.488 --> 01:31:12.508
government of, by, and for the people. What's your thoughts on that comment?

01:31:13.822 --> 01:31:17.922
Well, I agree. That is a pressing issue for our nation today.

01:31:18.202 --> 01:31:22.182
And no question, since the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in Citizens United,

01:31:22.302 --> 01:31:28.062
the FEC, the day of that ruling, we launched Free Speech for People in January 2010.

01:31:28.622 --> 01:31:33.262
That was a ruling sweeping away, a century of press, and barring corporate money

01:31:33.262 --> 01:31:37.302
in elections, equating corporations as people with political speech rights.

01:31:37.302 --> 01:31:43.462
Since that ruling, that question has become even more relevant because now corporations

01:31:43.462 --> 01:31:47.222
through their general treasury funds can dominate our elections,

01:31:47.502 --> 01:31:51.082
can pour hundreds of millions of dollars into our elections.

01:31:51.082 --> 01:31:57.802
And that has become a threat to the integrity of our political process and our democracy.

01:31:57.802 --> 01:32:03.642
So one major fight on our hands is to overturn that ruling via constitutional

01:32:03.642 --> 01:32:10.282
amendment that would overturn not just Citizens United, but a prior ruling known as Buckley v.

01:32:10.402 --> 01:32:16.582
Vallejo in 1976 by the Supreme Court, which equated money as speech and allowed

01:32:16.582 --> 01:32:22.062
for this system of unlimited campaign spending by the wealthy interests to drown

01:32:22.062 --> 01:32:24.602
out the voices of ordinary voters.

01:32:24.602 --> 01:32:29.782
So this is a fight for our democracy, no question about it But there are also

01:32:29.782 --> 01:32:33.962
many other fights today that we're facing As a result of the corruption,

01:32:34.142 --> 01:32:38.382
abuse of power coming out of the White House And as a result of voter suppression

01:32:38.382 --> 01:32:42.502
and voter intimidation schemes around the country All right,

01:32:42.622 --> 01:32:45.702
so now the second part of the Icebreaker is called 20 questions.

01:32:46.322 --> 01:32:49.882
So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20,

01:32:50.582 --> 01:32:54.682
You mean the number of questions I'll take? No, no, just give me a number Thank you.

01:32:55.530 --> 01:33:06.530
Five. Okay. What do you think we should decide at the local or state levels

01:33:06.530 --> 01:33:08.170
versus the federal level?

01:33:08.590 --> 01:33:11.610
Well, I certainly think that state and

01:33:11.610 --> 01:33:17.170
local governments have a power and responsibility to run their elections.

01:33:17.330 --> 01:33:20.210
That's the way our system works. It's a decentralized system.

01:33:21.090 --> 01:33:27.910
But I also think that there needs to be overall guarantees from the federal

01:33:27.910 --> 01:33:32.430
government, from the Constitution, that there will be a fair election process,

01:33:32.430 --> 01:33:35.570
that no voters will be blocked from casting their vote,

01:33:35.630 --> 01:33:38.090
and that votes will be counted as cast.

01:33:38.510 --> 01:33:45.110
So I think it's a meeting of different interests here between what state localities

01:33:45.110 --> 01:33:50.250
have a right duty to run in terms of their elections, but also what the federal

01:33:50.250 --> 01:33:51.810
government has a right to do.

01:33:51.930 --> 01:33:55.210
Now, when it comes to mobilizing the military into our cities,

01:33:55.230 --> 01:33:58.750
we're seeing a direct attack on state and local authorities,

01:33:58.750 --> 01:34:04.050
where this idea that now the federal government, through this Trump administration,

01:34:04.430 --> 01:34:10.930
can send troops into American cities to address law enforcement matters is contrary

01:34:10.930 --> 01:34:16.170
to what the Constitution allows and contrary to the federalism system that we

01:34:16.170 --> 01:34:20.890
have of states having the ability to run their own localities and their jurisdictions.

01:34:21.610 --> 01:34:26.930
Yeah. Why did you decide to start free speech for people, especially when you

01:34:26.930 --> 01:34:29.570
had already founded the National Voting Rights Institute?

01:34:30.783 --> 01:34:33.963
Right. Well, I started Free Speech for People with another attorney,

01:34:34.083 --> 01:34:37.783
Jeff Clements, in 2010 on the day of the Citizens United ruling.

01:34:37.943 --> 01:34:41.363
By the time I had started that, the National Voting Rights Institute,

01:34:41.523 --> 01:34:49.243
which I had founded in 1994, had merged in 2007 with an organization called Demos,

01:34:49.563 --> 01:34:54.923
based down in New York, which is a progressive think tank that works a lot on democracy issues.

01:34:54.923 --> 01:34:59.303
So I was no longer working at the National Voting Rights Institute.

01:34:59.543 --> 01:35:00.723
It had already merged with Demos.

01:35:01.263 --> 01:35:07.263
And this new organization, they said, was spurred by what the Supreme Court

01:35:07.263 --> 01:35:11.983
did in Citizens United by going over the cliff, declaring that corporations

01:35:11.983 --> 01:35:14.563
are people with political speech rights.

01:35:14.563 --> 01:35:20.243
We have since expanded our work to address threats to voting rights and threats

01:35:20.243 --> 01:35:23.643
to our democracy coming out of a corrupt White House.

01:35:23.803 --> 01:35:28.303
But we remain dedicated as well to challenging big money in politics.

01:35:29.783 --> 01:35:34.563
Defines, give your definition of free speech as laid out in the First Amendment.

01:35:35.969 --> 01:35:41.729
Free speech is certainly a guarantee that all of us have the right to have our

01:35:41.729 --> 01:35:45.869
voices heard without any restriction from the federal government.

01:35:46.049 --> 01:35:51.749
So long as we're not inciting violence, inciting an insurrection, we have that right.

01:35:51.929 --> 01:35:57.589
But it is also true that we have the right not to have our voices drowned out

01:35:57.589 --> 01:35:58.729
in the political process.

01:35:58.969 --> 01:36:03.749
So the free speech right does not extend to the ability to drown out other people's

01:36:03.749 --> 01:36:09.309
voices. The Supreme Court actually said that in 1949 in a case known as Kovacs v. Cooper.

01:36:09.609 --> 01:36:15.629
So the First Amendment guarantees free speech for all, but with the understanding

01:36:15.629 --> 01:36:22.649
that there are limitations with respect to creating danger in our society and inciting violence.

01:36:22.869 --> 01:36:27.429
And in our view, with respect to ensuring that every voice can be heard in the

01:36:27.429 --> 01:36:31.409
political process and not be drowned out by big money interests. Yeah.

01:36:31.869 --> 01:36:36.889
Yeah. And it's important, you know, to to remind folks that,

01:36:37.069 --> 01:36:41.189
well, from my perspective, that free speech means that you can say what you

01:36:41.189 --> 01:36:44.389
want to say, but I can respond in kind. Correct.

01:36:44.749 --> 01:36:50.129
And you can't and you can't censor me because my response may not jive with yours.

01:36:50.309 --> 01:36:54.209
I think that's that's a big misunderstanding that's going on now.

01:36:54.909 --> 01:37:01.269
Yes. In the in the political dialogue. So you kind of alluded to your motivation

01:37:01.269 --> 01:37:04.389
for starting this organization based off Citizens United.

01:37:04.769 --> 01:37:09.469
How much damage do you think it has done and can that damage be repaired?

01:37:10.843 --> 01:37:15.203
Done enormous damage to invite corporations now to come in with their general

01:37:15.203 --> 01:37:21.563
treasury funds and swamp our elections. I do think the damage can be repaired

01:37:21.563 --> 01:37:24.123
through a constitutional amendment, ultimately.

01:37:24.523 --> 01:37:29.903
That is what's necessary. But short of the amendment, we can do other things

01:37:29.903 --> 01:37:36.903
to chip away at the ruling and allow for other voices to be heard that don't

01:37:36.903 --> 01:37:39.163
have the resources of multinational corporations.

01:37:39.603 --> 01:37:45.703
First, multinational corporations by and large have foreign investors and those

01:37:45.703 --> 01:37:51.003
foreign investors are now able to subvert existing federal law that bars foreign

01:37:51.003 --> 01:37:54.543
nationals from spending money directly or indirectly in our elections.

01:37:54.663 --> 01:37:56.563
And they're able to do that through the corporate form.

01:37:56.763 --> 01:38:01.403
So we have been advancing legislation all across the country and in Congress

01:38:01.403 --> 01:38:06.263
that would ban multinational corporate spending in our elections based on their

01:38:06.263 --> 01:38:07.583
level of foreign investment,

01:38:08.063 --> 01:38:12.163
effectively saying that foreign-influenced corporate spending is no longer allowed.

01:38:12.163 --> 01:38:17.683
That was a loophole created by Citizens United, and we believe it can be closed with this legislation.

01:38:17.783 --> 01:38:21.463
It's already become the law in cities like Seattle, San Jose,

01:38:21.643 --> 01:38:25.003
and Portland, Maine, and it's advancing in a number of state legislatures.

01:38:26.138 --> 01:38:29.838
Thing we can do is to deal with the problem of super PACs.

01:38:29.938 --> 01:38:33.698
Now, people think super PACs came directly out of Citizens United,

01:38:33.898 --> 01:38:36.538
but actually they came out of a D.C.

01:38:36.698 --> 01:38:42.598
Circuit Court of Appeals ruling known as SpeechNow VFEC two months after Citizens United.

01:38:42.838 --> 01:38:49.198
And there we see 15 years of history of how unlimited donations to independent

01:38:49.198 --> 01:38:54.158
expenditure committees, super PACs, have effectively created more corruption,

01:38:54.418 --> 01:38:56.858
more appearance of corruption in our political process.

01:38:56.998 --> 01:39:02.538
So there's a whole campaign now to abolish super PACs. We're part of that campaign.

01:39:02.698 --> 01:39:07.658
Professor Larry Lessig at Harvard Law School is helping to lead it as well through

01:39:07.658 --> 01:39:08.918
his group Equal Citizens.

01:39:09.198 --> 01:39:13.218
And there's a case pending before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the First Circuit

01:39:13.218 --> 01:39:18.718
coming out of the state of Maine, which passed a law banning super PACs in their elections.

01:39:18.718 --> 01:39:23.858
And that case could very well be a case that ultimately gets us to the place

01:39:23.858 --> 01:39:26.678
of reversing the prior ruling from the D.C.

01:39:26.778 --> 01:39:31.218
Circuit that's created super PACs and allows us to abolish them nationwide.

01:39:32.058 --> 01:39:36.578
Yeah. Why is it important to expand the U.S. Supreme Court?

01:39:37.758 --> 01:39:43.418
Well, the U.S. Supreme Court, you know, in the modern day has nine justices,

01:39:43.598 --> 01:39:48.678
but there's nothing in the Constitution that requires that that number stay the same.

01:39:48.898 --> 01:39:51.438
You know, and in fact, it used to have less.

01:39:51.838 --> 01:39:58.278
So we have advocated for that. But we also advocate for term limits for justices.

01:39:58.278 --> 01:40:04.558
We believe it's necessary to have a term limit that is meaningful and allows

01:40:04.558 --> 01:40:07.438
for other justices to be appointed.

01:40:07.638 --> 01:40:10.898
And this has been legislation pending in the Congress that we fully endorse.

01:40:11.578 --> 01:40:18.478
Yeah. So one of the arguments that I agree with in expanding the court is that.

01:40:19.648 --> 01:40:24.828
Traditionally, when the court has been expanded, it's to make sure that it matches

01:40:24.828 --> 01:40:27.628
the federal judicial districts throughout the country.

01:40:28.268 --> 01:40:31.408
It appealed the Court of Appeals.

01:40:31.748 --> 01:40:38.288
Yes, exactly. And so if there's 11 Court of Appeals, then there should be 11

01:40:38.288 --> 01:40:42.468
justices and one justice should be assigned to each court.

01:40:42.668 --> 01:40:47.488
If it's 13, then it should be 13 justices. That's the way I look at it,

01:40:47.568 --> 01:40:54.068
because you've got right now nine and you've got at least two justices that

01:40:54.068 --> 01:40:57.568
have multiple districts they're responsible for. Yeah.

01:40:58.188 --> 01:41:05.008
So, you know, it makes sense to me. But the politics of well,

01:41:05.068 --> 01:41:08.448
the politics in general have dictators like,

01:41:08.788 --> 01:41:13.448
you know, if if the Democrats want it and the Republicans are against it,

01:41:13.548 --> 01:41:15.808
Republicans want it, the Democrats are against it.

01:41:15.808 --> 01:41:20.548
And somehow, some ways should be, I think that should be legislation,

01:41:20.548 --> 01:41:26.388
that each justice should be responsible for a court of appeals.

01:41:26.628 --> 01:41:31.208
Therefore, it would automatically make sure that the court has to expand.

01:41:32.683 --> 01:41:36.563
Is definitely the argument for it, and that is what has been presented in the

01:41:36.563 --> 01:41:39.123
Judiciary Act that has been introduced in Congress.

01:41:39.603 --> 01:41:43.223
I think it's critical, though, to note that right now we're dealing with an

01:41:43.223 --> 01:41:47.423
existential crisis for our democracy, and that's because of somebody in the

01:41:47.423 --> 01:41:49.623
Oval Office who wants to be a dictator.

01:41:49.923 --> 01:41:54.523
And that person, in our view, should not have the ability to expand the Supreme Court.

01:41:54.703 --> 01:41:58.023
In fact, that person needs to be impeached and removed from public office.

01:41:58.183 --> 01:42:02.383
We've launched an entire campaign around this, impeachtrumpagain.org.

01:42:02.583 --> 01:42:07.803
More than 1 million people all across the country have signed on demanding impeachment

01:42:07.803 --> 01:42:11.883
proceedings against this lawless president, Donald Trump, and we have documented

01:42:11.883 --> 01:42:16.243
in detail 25 distinct grounds for his impeachment and removal.

01:42:16.463 --> 01:42:20.723
So before we get to a broader solution of expanding the court,

01:42:20.883 --> 01:42:23.963
we need to deal with this existential crisis here and now.

01:42:24.143 --> 01:42:29.543
This president is engaged in multiple abuses of power. We have cited them on

01:42:29.543 --> 01:42:31.243
our site. I'll just give a few examples.

01:42:31.683 --> 01:42:35.063
Committing treason by levying war against the United States,

01:42:35.283 --> 01:42:40.363
individual states, and their people, sending the military into our nation's

01:42:40.363 --> 01:42:43.583
cities to try to squash dissent.

01:42:44.323 --> 01:42:51.063
Disappearing people from our streets, sending them to foreign torture prisons, removing U.S.

01:42:51.203 --> 01:42:55.323
Residents, detaining, arresting, and removing them without due process of law,

01:42:55.583 --> 01:43:00.203
attacking the United States Congress by freezing trillions of dollars of public

01:43:00.203 --> 01:43:03.003
funds that have been duly appropriated by the U.S.

01:43:03.163 --> 01:43:08.783
Congress, attacking the judiciary, refusing to follow court orders,

01:43:08.983 --> 01:43:13.163
federal court orders from all across the country, usurping judicial authority.

01:43:13.323 --> 01:43:18.363
The list goes on with respect to the lawlessness coming out of this White House,

01:43:18.363 --> 01:43:21.943
and that existential crisis needs to be confronted here and now.

01:43:23.438 --> 01:43:25.938
This wasn't a planned question, but since you brought that up,

01:43:26.278 --> 01:43:35.958
have you had any response from members of Congress to those grounds for impeachment?

01:43:36.258 --> 01:43:39.338
And if so, why hasn't there any?

01:43:39.458 --> 01:43:46.818
Well, I know why it hasn't happened now, but is there a plan based on the conversations

01:43:46.818 --> 01:43:49.798
that you've had? Yeah, there absolutely is a plan.

01:43:49.918 --> 01:43:54.018
And our plan is to keep building this case because we know it will only grow

01:43:54.018 --> 01:43:57.578
as it does on a daily basis with these multiple abuses of power.

01:43:57.738 --> 01:44:01.258
The answer to your question is yes. We've been in contact with many members

01:44:01.258 --> 01:44:04.738
of Congress, one of whom, Congressman Al Green of Houston, Texas,

01:44:05.018 --> 01:44:07.478
has championed this in the United States Congress.

01:44:07.478 --> 01:44:13.518
We helped him draft articles of impeachment that he introduced in June of this year in the U.S.

01:44:13.618 --> 01:44:19.358
Congress that dealt with the illegal and unlawful bombing of Iran without any

01:44:19.358 --> 01:44:21.798
authorization under the War Powers Clause.

01:44:21.798 --> 01:44:28.078
So that particular article of impeachment was voted on by the House,

01:44:28.278 --> 01:44:30.858
full House, because he forced a floor vote.

01:44:31.058 --> 01:44:34.778
Any member of Congress, regardless of whether they're on the Judiciary Committee,

01:44:35.198 --> 01:44:39.178
can invoke what is known as House Rule 9 for a privileged resolution.

01:44:39.178 --> 01:44:41.298
And this is considered to be a

01:44:41.298 --> 01:44:45.198
privileged resolution, any matter on impeachment. So he forced that vote.

01:44:45.678 --> 01:44:50.698
78 of his colleagues voted with him to advance those articles of impeachment.

01:44:50.918 --> 01:44:56.278
And one additional one, Congressman Andre Carson, Indiana, joined the very next day.

01:44:56.418 --> 01:45:01.718
So we're up to 80 members of Congress now who support impeachment proceedings

01:45:01.718 --> 01:45:08.538
against this president. That is quadruple the number that was there before that vote.

01:45:08.698 --> 01:45:10.878
Only 20 were on record. Now they're 80.

01:45:11.078 --> 01:45:15.438
And I think the numbers will only continue to grow as this president continues

01:45:15.438 --> 01:45:18.458
to trample on the Constitution and the rule of law.

01:45:21.665 --> 01:45:27.125
Why is your organization pushing for constitutional amendments instead of federal

01:45:27.125 --> 01:45:29.205
legislation to handle some of these issues?

01:45:29.565 --> 01:45:35.125
Well, in some of these issues, what's required is to overturn the Supreme Court.

01:45:35.865 --> 01:45:39.725
So that's why a constitutional amendment is required. In some of them,

01:45:39.825 --> 01:45:44.385
it's required to amend the Constitution to reverse something that's already in the Constitution.

01:45:44.385 --> 01:45:49.305
So, for example, the Electoral College, which is an antiquated relic dating

01:45:49.305 --> 01:45:52.325
back to protecting the slave states, is in the Constitution.

01:45:52.505 --> 01:45:57.745
We support an amendment to overturn that and abolish the Electoral College and

01:45:57.745 --> 01:46:01.045
have the president only elected by popular vote.

01:46:01.405 --> 01:46:06.765
In addition, we do not have a right to vote formally in our U.S. Constitution.

01:46:06.985 --> 01:46:11.425
We're only one of 11 industrialized democracies in the world that does not have

01:46:11.425 --> 01:46:15.145
an affirmative, guaranteed right to vote. in our Constitution.

01:46:15.725 --> 01:46:19.885
Newer democracies, like South Africa's democracy, they draw up a Constitution

01:46:19.885 --> 01:46:21.865
with help, actually, from U.S.

01:46:21.985 --> 01:46:26.145
Experts they put into the Constitution an affirmative right to vote. We don't have that.

01:46:26.305 --> 01:46:28.625
So that's an amendment that is required.

01:46:28.845 --> 01:46:33.205
The amendment to overturn Citizens United and Buckley-Vallejo is needed because

01:46:33.205 --> 01:46:36.785
federal legislation can't overturn a Supreme Court ruling, you know,

01:46:36.845 --> 01:46:38.585
like that is interpreting the Constitution.

01:46:38.845 --> 01:46:42.545
It needs to be done via a constitutional amendment.

01:46:42.845 --> 01:46:48.305
So these are amendments that we support as well as others on our site at freespeechforpeople.org.

01:46:48.445 --> 01:46:51.725
We have a whole section of the site devoted to democracy amendments,

01:46:51.725 --> 01:46:56.385
and we think they're critical to advancing, you know, our democracy forward

01:46:56.385 --> 01:46:58.285
and expanding the electorate.

01:46:58.985 --> 01:47:02.205
So since you mentioned the Constitution.

01:47:03.030 --> 01:47:06.450
Of the ones that you're pushing. So the People's Rights Amendment,

01:47:06.670 --> 01:47:10.770
that's the one that's going to directly impact Citizens United. Is that correct?

01:47:11.450 --> 01:47:16.250
It is, but it's also going to directly impact the overall fabricated doctrine

01:47:16.250 --> 01:47:17.830
of corporate constitutional rights.

01:47:17.990 --> 01:47:24.550
So the story behind Citizens United is that it was part of a long road of trying

01:47:24.550 --> 01:47:29.510
to get corporations to have constitutional rights dating back to the early 1970s

01:47:29.510 --> 01:47:34.030
by then Lewis Powell before he became a justice on the Supreme Court,

01:47:34.230 --> 01:47:39.110
writing a memorandum that set out, private memorandum, never supposed to see the light of day,

01:47:39.270 --> 01:47:45.030
for the business community setting out why he thought corporations should be

01:47:45.030 --> 01:47:49.390
granted these constitutional rights to go against regulations that were enacted

01:47:49.390 --> 01:47:52.690
during that time that are designed to protect the public interest.

01:47:52.930 --> 01:47:58.430
And that road that we've been on for decades now of granting corporations these

01:47:58.430 --> 01:48:04.090
constitutional rights is a dangerous road and one that undermines our democracy and our republic.

01:48:04.390 --> 01:48:10.070
And so the People's Rights Amendment is designed to overturn that entire fabricated

01:48:10.070 --> 01:48:11.810
doctrine of corporate constitutional rights.

01:48:12.210 --> 01:48:16.050
Corporations are not people. They are artificial creatures of the state.

01:48:16.270 --> 01:48:20.510
They do not have the same abilities like you and I.

01:48:20.750 --> 01:48:22.890
They don't breathe. They don't bleed.

01:48:23.150 --> 01:48:28.150
They don't send their children off into war, and they actually have state-based

01:48:28.150 --> 01:48:30.890
privileges that you and I do not have.

01:48:31.130 --> 01:48:36.130
Limited liability, perpetual life, the ability to aggregate wealth and distribute

01:48:36.130 --> 01:48:42.370
wealth, and for those reasons, we must not treat them as people with constitutional rights.

01:48:42.650 --> 01:48:47.130
So you're saying Mitt Romney was wrong when he said that? He was wrong, absolutely.

01:48:49.356 --> 01:48:53.556
Is the right-to-vote amendment designed to supersede the 15th,

01:48:53.636 --> 01:48:56.036
19th, 24th, and 26th Amendments?

01:48:56.676 --> 01:49:00.556
No, not at all. But I appreciate you asking that question. Those amendments

01:49:00.556 --> 01:49:07.996
guarantee the right-to-vote in the effort to stop discrimination for certain groups of voters.

01:49:08.236 --> 01:49:14.276
What the right-to-vote amendment would do would extend that to make it an affirmative right-to-vote.

01:49:14.276 --> 01:49:17.696
So right now, when we go into court, as we do with free speech or people,

01:49:17.916 --> 01:49:22.036
to challenge voter suppression laws and challenge voter intimidation,

01:49:22.196 --> 01:49:28.576
we rely on existing amendments like the Equal Protection Clause out of the 14th Amendment.

01:49:29.036 --> 01:49:30.776
Sometimes the 15th Amendment.

01:49:30.936 --> 01:49:34.816
We also rely on federal legislation like the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

01:49:34.816 --> 01:49:40.156
What we don't have as a tool is an affirmative right to vote in our Constitution,

01:49:40.476 --> 01:49:46.216
and that would strengthen our ability to take on voter suppression and voter intimidation.

01:49:46.496 --> 01:49:49.916
Justice Scalia famously said in Bush v.

01:49:50.036 --> 01:49:54.336
Gore, the 2000 ruling that stopped the vote counting in the state of Florida

01:49:54.336 --> 01:49:56.656
and handed the presidency to George W.

01:49:56.776 --> 01:50:01.916
Bush, he said in that ruling, there is no individual right to vote for the electors

01:50:01.916 --> 01:50:05.396
of the United States. And sadly, he was right.

01:50:05.636 --> 01:50:09.176
There is no individual right to vote for the electors because they're chosen

01:50:09.176 --> 01:50:11.736
by, you know, the states.

01:50:11.996 --> 01:50:17.256
The states go ahead. You vote for your presidential choice in the states and

01:50:17.256 --> 01:50:19.736
then the states go ahead and assign the electors.

01:50:19.736 --> 01:50:25.356
But underlying that was the clear challenge to all of us that we need to have

01:50:25.356 --> 01:50:27.016
an affirmative right to vote.

01:50:27.156 --> 01:50:30.896
We need to abolish the Electoral College, but we need to have that affirmatively

01:50:30.896 --> 01:50:35.416
stated in the Constitution that everyone has that right to vote once they become eligible.

01:50:36.216 --> 01:50:41.116
Wouldn't passage of the amendment to abolish the Electoral College skew the

01:50:41.116 --> 01:50:45.116
political process in favor of one political party? Yeah.

01:50:46.232 --> 01:50:51.192
Think so. What it would do is it would ensure that the process is democratic,

01:50:51.392 --> 01:50:55.512
small d, that we're ruling the country based on popular vote,

01:50:55.672 --> 01:51:00.012
not based on this antiquated system that, again, was designed to protect the slave states.

01:51:00.252 --> 01:51:05.092
Yeah. I mean, that's kind of the general argument now.

01:51:05.332 --> 01:51:12.132
It's like a lot of people feel that the Republicans would never get a president if it was popular vote.

01:51:12.412 --> 01:51:20.012
I tend to agree with you that it all depends on what time of existence we live in, right?

01:51:20.132 --> 01:51:24.372
Because, you know, 30 years ago, well, I'll go back even further.

01:51:24.552 --> 01:51:27.852
I'll say 60 plus years ago, John F.

01:51:27.912 --> 01:51:33.032
Kennedy might not have won based if it was strictly a popular vote,

01:51:33.032 --> 01:51:37.372
you know, because of the dynamics of that time.

01:51:37.592 --> 01:51:41.632
And it would have given Nixon more hope, I'll put it that way,

01:51:41.812 --> 01:51:44.772
if we didn't have an electoral college.

01:51:45.252 --> 01:51:50.332
Would the nobody is above the law amendment give clarity to.

01:51:51.085 --> 01:51:55.425
Give more clarity than the 14th Amendment concerning insurrections,

01:51:55.445 --> 01:51:58.385
and how exactly is that a free speech issue?

01:51:58.745 --> 01:52:04.505
Yeah, great question. So look, the Nobody Above the Law Amendment is designed

01:52:04.505 --> 01:52:07.605
to deal with another Supreme Court ruling that was issued, Trump v.

01:52:07.685 --> 01:52:14.225
United States, which was issued last year and which provides presidential immunity

01:52:14.225 --> 01:52:16.685
for official acts. It was a disaster

01:52:16.685 --> 01:52:19.325
of a ruling, one of the worst Supreme Court rulings in its history.

01:52:19.525 --> 01:52:24.505
It now effectively places the president of the United States above the law when

01:52:24.505 --> 01:52:27.505
it comes to engaging in official acts.

01:52:27.665 --> 01:52:33.885
It's critical to note that there is further litigation to be had here on what

01:52:33.885 --> 01:52:36.445
it means to engage in official acts.

01:52:36.605 --> 01:52:41.225
We argue in letters to state and local prosecutors in various different states,

01:52:41.345 --> 01:52:43.785
including California, Illinois, New York,

01:52:44.245 --> 01:52:47.445
Massachusetts, and Pennsylvania, that when it comes to some of the president's

01:52:47.445 --> 01:52:52.085
actions, like extortion of some of the leading law firms in the country,

01:52:52.305 --> 01:52:58.945
or like kidnappings, that those are not official acts and that he's not immune under Trump the U.S.

01:52:59.045 --> 01:53:01.645
But ultimately, we do have to overturn that ruling.

01:53:01.905 --> 01:53:05.265
And yes, you're correct that it would.

01:53:06.425 --> 01:53:12.385
Effectively deal with what we saw from the insurrection, where he was left without

01:53:12.385 --> 01:53:18.645
any criminal liability from that ruling, despite the fact Jack Smith, the special counsel,

01:53:19.245 --> 01:53:21.625
said he was going to go back to the district court and demonstrate.

01:53:21.785 --> 01:53:23.765
They did not involve official acts.

01:53:24.125 --> 01:53:29.465
He, of course, had his case dismissed and he resigned before Trump took power.

01:53:29.725 --> 01:53:34.305
But we have to get back to the point that the rule of law applies to everyone,

01:53:34.505 --> 01:53:38.825
including the president of the United States, and not allow this exception,

01:53:39.445 --> 01:53:42.845
this dangerous exception the court Drew and Trump the U.S.

01:53:43.585 --> 01:53:50.265
Yeah, John, I agree with what you're saying. The only thing I disagree with is the...

01:53:51.292 --> 01:53:57.872
I think the Dred Scott decision was worse than the presidential immunity from my perspective.

01:53:58.272 --> 01:54:00.352
Well, I said one of the worst.

01:54:01.512 --> 01:54:05.992
I agree with you. Dred Scott was the worst. Okay. But this is one of the worst. Okay.

01:54:06.292 --> 01:54:09.872
Since you put the qualifier in there, I'll retract my argument. Yeah.

01:54:11.272 --> 01:54:15.932
Have you considered an amendment to change Congress to a parliamentary system?

01:54:16.872 --> 01:54:21.052
We have not come out with a position on that, but we're certainly open.

01:54:21.052 --> 01:54:22.832
Into exploring that point.

01:54:22.972 --> 01:54:26.292
I think there's a strong argument that the U.S.

01:54:26.392 --> 01:54:31.672
Senate, as it is set up today, is not consistent with principles of democracy.

01:54:31.972 --> 01:54:38.472
You know, it gives people in Wyoming the same number of seats as people in California,

01:54:38.612 --> 01:54:41.692
despite huge differences in the population of those two states.

01:54:41.992 --> 01:54:46.612
And yet, you know, in order to nominate, in order to confirm judges on the federal

01:54:46.612 --> 01:54:50.992
courts and the Supreme Court, each of those senators has an equal vote.

01:54:51.172 --> 01:54:56.512
So, you know, we're looking at a situation here where effectively people in

01:54:56.512 --> 01:55:02.212
Wyoming have a greater say than the people of California, given the basis of

01:55:02.212 --> 01:55:05.372
their population, with respect to the federal judiciary.

01:55:05.532 --> 01:55:07.492
And that, we think, is not right.

01:55:07.692 --> 01:55:12.252
So I do think that there's reasons to explore that question further,

01:55:12.492 --> 01:55:14.612
we have not formally taken a position, however.

01:55:15.172 --> 01:55:21.192
Yeah, because I, you know, they patterned it sort of off the House of Commons,

01:55:21.392 --> 01:55:26.412
House of Lords in England, and, you know, where the House of Lords,

01:55:26.412 --> 01:55:31.812
you know, is set aside, and on the nomination stuff,

01:55:32.272 --> 01:55:38.592
yeah, I can, I know the argument about Wyoming being equal, but in a situation

01:55:38.592 --> 01:55:42.832
where you're actually talking about nominations, that might be okay that.

01:55:44.226 --> 01:55:48.906
Island or Wyoming would have the same impact as Texas and California.

01:55:49.426 --> 01:55:55.946
But when it comes to, you know, legislation, as far as like taxation and all that stuff,

01:55:56.226 --> 01:56:03.026
I can see that's why the initial concept was that the ideas for taxes would

01:56:03.026 --> 01:56:05.286
come from the people's house.

01:56:06.286 --> 01:56:12.226
And that the generation or the monitoring of the revenue and paying of the debt

01:56:12.226 --> 01:56:15.086
would fall under the Senate. Yes.

01:56:15.446 --> 01:56:18.886
Yes. So, I mean, you know, I understand all that.

01:56:19.046 --> 01:56:26.146
But I entertain that parliamentary because usually that comes out of the House of Representatives.

01:56:26.906 --> 01:56:36.866
And then whoever has the majority would then pick their leader to be the president as opposed to, you know,

01:56:36.946 --> 01:56:44.666
and then have a different standard to elect who the speaker would be to preside over. the house.

01:56:44.946 --> 01:56:48.286
But I mean, it's and I'm not trying to.

01:56:49.636 --> 01:56:53.836
A debate with you about it here, but I just, I wanted the listeners to hear

01:56:53.836 --> 01:56:58.856
that there are, people have thought about it and there are discussions about it.

01:56:58.876 --> 01:57:03.616
A lot of us that are political junkies used to stay up late to watch the House

01:57:03.616 --> 01:57:09.876
of Commons on C-SPAN and be entertained by the way that they would handle stuff.

01:57:10.336 --> 01:57:15.376
And, you know, since we're having discussions about the Electoral College and

01:57:15.376 --> 01:57:21.016
how we choose a president and stuff, I mean, that needs to be on the table, I think.

01:57:21.436 --> 01:57:25.896
I agree. I agree, Eric. And, you know, look, I think other reforms need to be

01:57:25.896 --> 01:57:28.596
on the table too. For example, proportional representation.

01:57:28.916 --> 01:57:31.776
You know, we have a system right now where we draw these districts.

01:57:31.776 --> 01:57:33.256
We have gerrymandering happening.

01:57:33.456 --> 01:57:37.776
Obviously, there are fights around this even before the Supreme Court today

01:57:37.776 --> 01:57:38.896
coming out of Louisiana.

01:57:39.456 --> 01:57:43.316
But, you know, there's a whole other system that could be in place here.

01:57:43.576 --> 01:57:47.756
And the state of California may face a ballot measure in the not-too-distant

01:57:47.756 --> 01:57:53.116
future in 2028 or 2030, led by a number of organizations we've signed on to

01:57:53.116 --> 01:57:58.056
endorse this effort, which would set up proportional representation for their state legislature.

01:57:58.296 --> 01:58:02.476
And in that kind of system, you invite more parties to the table,

01:58:02.656 --> 01:58:06.636
more political parties emerge, because then they're given a guarantee if they

01:58:06.636 --> 01:58:11.796
get 10 percent, 20 percent of the vote, They get a certain number of seats in that legislature.

01:58:12.096 --> 01:58:15.896
And I think you'd have more voices and you'd actually probably have more participation

01:58:15.896 --> 01:58:20.196
because more people would come out when they see more opportunities and choices

01:58:20.196 --> 01:58:23.496
on the ballot than the two party system we have today. Yeah.

01:58:23.596 --> 01:58:26.436
And I think that's the other argument about the parliamentary system,

01:58:26.436 --> 01:58:34.736
because I remember when South Africa first started having parliamentary elections under the new regime,

01:58:35.156 --> 01:58:41.276
I guess, for lack of a better term, they had like 20 political parties that ran.

01:58:41.276 --> 01:58:44.516
And I think at least eight of them got seats in Parliament.

01:58:45.016 --> 01:58:50.116
So, you know, a lot of people do not like the binary system that we have.

01:58:50.636 --> 01:58:52.656
And given more choices...

01:58:54.219 --> 01:58:58.639
People might be more engaged to participate because that's the ultimate goal

01:58:58.639 --> 01:59:02.079
is to get more people to participate. I agree.

01:59:02.759 --> 01:59:09.679
Well, John, look, John Boniface, I see that we could have conversations for a long, long time.

01:59:10.319 --> 01:59:16.179
And we probably would have a set date for us to sit and have coffee and tea

01:59:16.179 --> 01:59:19.159
and talk about all the things that's going on.

01:59:19.679 --> 01:59:25.719
But I'm limited in time for this thing. But if people want to continue to engage

01:59:25.719 --> 01:59:29.379
with you and the organization and all that stuff, how can people do that?

01:59:30.199 --> 01:59:35.379
Absolutely. They can go to our website, freespeechforpeople.org, sign up to get updates.

01:59:35.699 --> 01:59:39.959
We have a number of take action items on the site, but also we email our list

01:59:39.959 --> 01:59:41.859
about various activities we're engaged in.

01:59:41.979 --> 01:59:45.979
And we welcome people joining us. And, of course, we welcome people joining

01:59:45.979 --> 01:59:50.179
us at impeachtrumpagain.org where people can sign our petition and have their

01:59:50.179 --> 01:59:53.299
voice heard on that critical question today. Yeah.

01:59:53.539 --> 01:59:59.319
And I'm glad you put that other website out there again so people can jot that

01:59:59.319 --> 02:00:01.439
down. John, it's been fun, man.

02:00:02.179 --> 02:00:07.759
I kind of, you know, kind of picked up on your trail a little bit and linked

02:00:07.759 --> 02:00:09.779
in and saw what you were doing.

02:00:09.799 --> 02:00:13.879
I was like, oh, yeah, I got it. Even if he doesn't want to be on the podcast,

02:00:13.899 --> 02:00:19.999
I just want to talk to him because he sounds like my kind of guy because I like people that have ideas.

02:00:20.179 --> 02:00:25.479
I think the only way that we can progress as a nation is that we have positive,

02:00:25.619 --> 02:00:27.499
constructive ideas to make it better.

02:00:27.879 --> 02:00:31.639
We've managed to get here, be here for about 249 years.

02:00:31.639 --> 02:00:38.319
So I think if we want to get to the next 250, get to our 500th birthday,

02:00:38.679 --> 02:00:44.679
we've got to have people like you pushing the envelope and continue to have

02:00:44.679 --> 02:00:47.099
us think about how we can be better.

02:00:47.259 --> 02:00:50.579
So I thank you for your work, and I thank you for coming on the podcast.

02:00:51.359 --> 02:00:53.459
Thank you so much, Eric. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

02:00:53.539 --> 02:00:56.039
Thank you. All right, guys. And we're going to catch you all on the other side.

02:01:07.865 --> 02:01:12.445
All right. And we are back. So I want to thank Leslie Uppold,

02:01:12.805 --> 02:01:20.485
Veronica Cardenas and John Bonifaz for coming on the program and doing their

02:01:20.485 --> 02:01:23.165
best to open our minds. Right.

02:01:23.945 --> 02:01:28.665
You know, a lot of those names, if any of those names are, you know,

02:01:28.725 --> 02:01:32.405
may not be household names to you, but they caught my attention.

02:01:33.245 --> 02:01:40.005
And these are people who are doing the work, and some have been doing it for a long, long time.

02:01:40.465 --> 02:01:51.645
Les has been out there since 1975 trying to advocate the value of unions and

02:01:51.645 --> 02:01:54.925
the strength of labor, of unions.

02:01:56.100 --> 02:01:59.800
To benefit the economy.

02:02:00.300 --> 02:02:05.440
The basic premise, if you treat workers right, if you respect their rights,

02:02:05.820 --> 02:02:09.240
then the economy will be right. You know what I'm saying?

02:02:10.400 --> 02:02:16.660
And just get us off of this greed track, which is hard to do because we're human beings.

02:02:17.200 --> 02:02:24.000
But in order for the country to continue to thrive and thrive even more in the

02:02:24.000 --> 02:02:28.420
biblical sense to live more abundantly, Then we got to get off this greed track.

02:02:29.300 --> 02:02:35.620
And Les has been out there doing the work to make that happen.

02:02:36.400 --> 02:02:47.380
And, you know, and then we got Veronica Cardenas, who is really one of those people that,

02:02:47.740 --> 02:02:54.840
you know, is utilizing the experience that she's had, personal and professional,

02:02:55.700 --> 02:02:59.300
to fight for the dignity of human beings.

02:02:59.540 --> 02:03:01.780
And she's doing it through immigration law.

02:03:02.100 --> 02:03:12.440
And I think that's very, very important that she wants to get our minds fixed

02:03:12.440 --> 02:03:14.480
on the fact that we're dealing with people.

02:03:14.920 --> 02:03:19.500
Because a lot of times when we get into politics and we start dealing with issues,

02:03:20.020 --> 02:03:25.140
we get caught up in the language and the fights and all that stuff,

02:03:25.160 --> 02:03:31.340
and we forget that any piece of legislation, any law that is passed impacts people.

02:03:31.860 --> 02:03:35.100
And a lot of times it's a life or death situation.

02:03:36.664 --> 02:03:40.704
And, you know, a lot of the elected officials lose sight of that.

02:03:40.984 --> 02:03:47.244
And having been an elected official, I know what the trap looks like. Right.

02:03:48.324 --> 02:03:53.484
And so we just have to stay grounded. And Veronica is one of those people that

02:03:53.484 --> 02:03:57.584
is doing her part to make sure that on this particular issue on immigration,

02:03:57.964 --> 02:04:02.464
that we stay grounded and be reminded that we're dealing with people.

02:04:02.464 --> 02:04:10.904
So her organization, Humanigration, is a valuable tool for her contemporaries

02:04:10.904 --> 02:04:15.624
to get them in the mindset, too, and not get caught in the trap that elected officials do.

02:04:16.024 --> 02:04:22.924
And just remember that that person coming before you as a potential client is a human being.

02:04:23.464 --> 02:04:33.164
It's not just another case, right? And then John Boniface for his energy and

02:04:33.164 --> 02:04:37.004
his intellect and his creativity, right?

02:04:37.164 --> 02:04:43.184
And dealing with issues that will help get us to be a more perfect union, right?

02:04:43.184 --> 02:04:54.344
To try to eliminate the growing engine that I call the political-industrial complex, right,

02:04:54.544 --> 02:05:02.324
as far as the money goes in campaigns and try to get that back down to a reasonable level.

02:05:03.004 --> 02:05:07.104
Rich people are always going to have influence and sway because they have money,

02:05:07.764 --> 02:05:13.464
but it shouldn't be as corrupt as it is now. Right.

02:05:14.604 --> 02:05:19.464
And, you know, and just, you know, just talking about exploring different ways

02:05:19.464 --> 02:05:24.324
of how we can govern, how we can get more people engaged, how it can be more representative.

02:05:25.144 --> 02:05:29.544
Right. I'm all down with that. And I appreciate John for.

02:05:31.795 --> 02:05:41.655
Being part of the collective that wants to put ideas to paper and push them

02:05:41.655 --> 02:05:46.495
so that we can be a more perfect union.

02:05:47.615 --> 02:05:52.375
All right, so, you know, I just, I guess, guys,

02:05:53.195 --> 02:06:07.455
we've got to continue to try and be patient but persistent at the same time, right?

02:06:08.695 --> 02:06:18.215
So we need to be persistent about our concerns and our protestations toward

02:06:18.215 --> 02:06:25.055
this government and the way that they are making a complete shitshow of it, right? Right.

02:06:26.235 --> 02:06:35.355
It's it's become apparent that the only value that corporate or mainstream media,

02:06:35.495 --> 02:06:38.755
however you want to label it, is to get us the information.

02:06:41.575 --> 02:06:45.855
And, you know, and we hope that the information is accurate.

02:06:46.455 --> 02:06:50.995
Right. When they offer it. But we've got to we've got to realize that we've

02:06:50.995 --> 02:06:54.755
got to gather the information and then we've got to act upon it.

02:06:56.835 --> 02:07:04.675
And I know that the bare minimum is to go vote for change, but we really need

02:07:04.675 --> 02:07:10.095
to show that we are engaged in this process a little bit more.

02:07:10.275 --> 02:07:15.015
Again, I don't want you to be political junkies like me, but we got to raise

02:07:15.015 --> 02:07:18.475
our level up a little bit. We got to raise our intensity a little bit.

02:07:20.589 --> 02:07:24.069
The current administration is banking on the fact that they're going to inundate

02:07:24.069 --> 02:07:29.029
you with so much BS that you will just say, screw it and not care.

02:07:29.689 --> 02:07:33.789
That's what they want to do. They want to keep constantly throwing out confusion

02:07:33.789 --> 02:07:37.029
and chaos so that you would be disengaged.

02:07:37.849 --> 02:07:42.529
And the reality is that now more than ever, you need to be more focused.

02:07:43.109 --> 02:07:48.889
You need to really, really pay attention because they're coming for all of us.

02:07:49.409 --> 02:07:53.789
All of us is not in that little bubble that they have. They're coming for all of us.

02:07:55.149 --> 02:08:00.729
And it may hit you immediately. It may hit you a few months down the road.

02:08:00.869 --> 02:08:02.829
It may even hit you a couple of years down the road.

02:08:03.229 --> 02:08:09.089
But it's going to hit you because their intent is total control,

02:08:09.609 --> 02:08:12.349
total domination, complete power.

02:08:12.889 --> 02:08:17.089
That's all they care about. and they want to be entertaining in the process.

02:08:18.549 --> 02:08:21.889
Because that's all the president really knows how to do.

02:08:22.409 --> 02:08:27.409
You would think that having been in the position before that he would probably

02:08:27.409 --> 02:08:33.449
be more sensitive to the fact of the power that he can wield,

02:08:34.289 --> 02:08:39.889
but it looks like it's had the reverse effect and he's totally corrupted and

02:08:39.889 --> 02:08:46.449
he's just going to do what he wants to do And he's got the people in place to make it so.

02:08:46.949 --> 02:08:51.989
Not the folks that could kind of like put the guardrails on,

02:08:52.249 --> 02:08:55.049
just say, no, sir, that's not a good idea.

02:08:55.649 --> 02:08:57.529
Maybe you shouldn't go down that route.

02:08:58.389 --> 02:09:02.469
He's got nobody that'll do that. As a matter of fact, he's just allowing these

02:09:02.469 --> 02:09:07.989
people to just be as destructive and creative and visceral and vocal as they can be.

02:09:09.677 --> 02:09:15.117
To us. Those of us that's not in that circle, doesn't matter if you're a Democrat

02:09:15.117 --> 02:09:18.557
or a Republican, doesn't matter if you're a libertarian or green,

02:09:18.917 --> 02:09:22.577
doesn't matter if you're independent or agnostic, right?

02:09:23.837 --> 02:09:27.237
You need to be engaged because it's going to impact you.

02:09:27.937 --> 02:09:32.137
And there are some folks that say, well, you know, we've always been conservative. No, sir.

02:09:32.497 --> 02:09:37.457
If you understand the history of the United States, every state has had a conservative

02:09:37.457 --> 02:09:39.357
moment and a progressive moment.

02:09:39.857 --> 02:09:44.297
Now, wherever you are in the current spectrum, that's where you are.

02:09:44.517 --> 02:09:49.437
But understanding your history that you've been the opposite at some point, right?

02:09:50.437 --> 02:09:53.757
You know, everybody looks at Montana. Oh, it's just a red state,

02:09:53.917 --> 02:09:57.237
blah, blah, this, that, that Montana was the first state to elect a woman to Congress.

02:09:57.597 --> 02:09:59.917
They were the first state to give women the right to vote.

02:10:01.467 --> 02:10:01.787
One of them.

02:10:04.027 --> 02:10:10.447
You know, Kansas, the reason why they were able to defeat legislation that would

02:10:10.447 --> 02:10:15.687
have made abortion illegal in that state is because it was already in their

02:10:15.687 --> 02:10:19.447
constitution that abortion was legal,

02:10:19.647 --> 02:10:22.947
that a woman had a right to choose. It was already in there. Right.

02:10:23.827 --> 02:10:27.847
So they were trying to repeal that right.

02:10:28.727 --> 02:10:31.627
And the folks said, no, no, no, because it's their history.

02:10:32.327 --> 02:10:40.247
So, you know, when you see a president trying to punish states because he didn't

02:10:40.247 --> 02:10:43.287
win that state in the election, he didn't get their electoral votes.

02:10:43.287 --> 02:10:50.027
It's like, so you're disregarding the people that voted for you in that particular

02:10:50.027 --> 02:10:53.627
state. You're punishing them, right?

02:10:54.047 --> 02:10:59.707
Because the law impacts everybody, not just particular individuals.

02:10:59.707 --> 02:11:05.387
And you can't pass laws just to deal with individuals. You can deal with organizations,

02:11:05.387 --> 02:11:08.647
but you can't deal with individuals, right?

02:11:11.067 --> 02:11:17.887
So, you know, that's why you can't be vindictive when you're president or whether

02:11:17.887 --> 02:11:19.467
you're governor or when you're mayor.

02:11:20.007 --> 02:11:25.387
Can't be vindictive about that. It's like you represent everybody now.

02:11:26.347 --> 02:11:30.587
The welfare of the entire nation is under your purview, Mr.

02:11:30.667 --> 02:11:37.067
President. So if you're hell-bent on punishing people in California because

02:11:37.067 --> 02:11:41.087
California didn't vote for you, then you're also punishing the people that are

02:11:41.087 --> 02:11:44.767
Trump supporters in California, right?

02:11:46.829 --> 02:11:51.329
But SNAP benefits and the poorest states in the nation voted for you.

02:11:52.549 --> 02:11:56.749
Mississippi comes to mind right away. Poor state in the nation.

02:11:57.669 --> 02:12:01.549
And you want to allow the SNAP benefits to end, right?

02:12:02.249 --> 02:12:07.529
I mean, that's the kind of thinking that we don't need.

02:12:07.709 --> 02:12:11.269
We need people to understand that all of us are in this thing together.

02:12:12.309 --> 02:12:17.269
You know, any president that gets 100% of the vote is a president that ran unopposed.

02:12:18.789 --> 02:12:27.789
And that I don't think has ever happened. So, you know, you've got to represent

02:12:27.789 --> 02:12:32.149
the people that didn't even vote for you. You've got to care about them.

02:12:32.869 --> 02:12:38.369
The government has to care about people that didn't vote Republican in this case.

02:12:39.089 --> 02:12:44.929
If the situation was reversed, which it has been, do you got to care about the Republicans?

02:12:45.009 --> 02:12:47.409
If you're a Democrat, you got to care about the Republicans.

02:12:47.709 --> 02:12:49.549
See, we're all in this thing together.

02:12:51.129 --> 02:12:57.469
It doesn't matter how frustrating your Thanksgiving dinner arguments will get or, you know, whatever.

02:12:57.929 --> 02:13:00.909
Whatever social setting you're in and you have these debates,

02:13:01.529 --> 02:13:02.729
that's all well and good.

02:13:02.909 --> 02:13:05.429
And then you go to the voting booth and you make your choice.

02:13:05.429 --> 02:13:12.129
And now when you get sworn in, you take an oath to protect everybody,

02:13:12.589 --> 02:13:14.269
to defend the Constitution.

02:13:15.389 --> 02:13:21.529
That's what you do. You don't take an oath to defend the Constitution and try to destroy it.

02:13:23.388 --> 02:13:27.828
Oath to serve the American people and then try to harm them.

02:13:28.748 --> 02:13:33.268
So, ladies and gentlemen, I just need y'all to be more engaged.

02:13:33.768 --> 02:13:38.628
I know it's hard. We all got jobs. We all got lives to live.

02:13:38.808 --> 02:13:41.308
We got issues that we got to deal with.

02:13:41.528 --> 02:13:47.808
But the reality is a lot of the stuff that's happening in Washington or happening

02:13:47.808 --> 02:13:53.728
at your respective state capitals, it's determining about the life that you're trying to live.

02:13:54.368 --> 02:13:57.108
They're impacting the decisions that you have to make.

02:13:57.928 --> 02:14:00.288
So you've got to pay attention.

02:14:01.428 --> 02:14:07.028
And especially to my black brothers and sisters. I know it's frustrating.

02:14:07.788 --> 02:14:12.768
I know it's hard to say, well, you know, the system is against,

02:14:13.088 --> 02:14:17.088
I mean, you know, it's hard to get engaged in a system that you think is against

02:14:17.088 --> 02:14:21.368
you and was designed to hold you down and all that.

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But I'm I just need to remind you that the position you're in now,

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where you are really free to make a choice in every state in the United States,

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was not the case 60 years ago.

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It was not the case 100 years ago.

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To be apathetic was fought and died for, right?

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Just like the right to be engaged.

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So, you know, we have to get focused, you know.

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Like, for example, I think we all should be about reparations.

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We can disagree on how it's going to be distributed and all that stuff.

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I think we should be about reparations.

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But I think we also need to make sure that we have a country that's going to

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give us reparations in order to continue to have the discussion.

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Because if we say, well, let it burn, okay.

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Well, you're going to burn too.

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You're not going to be spared if the country burns down. If anything,

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we're going to be impacted first because other folks have resources,

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primarily money, to stave off the pain for a little while.

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But if white folks are making $100 and you're making five, right,

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or they're worth $100 and you're worth five, if the country burns,

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who's going to fall first, the $5 person or the $100 person, right?

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What you need to be doing is to try to get us to 25, try to get us to 50, try to get us to 100.

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And engaging whatever way you can to make sure that we get to that point.

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Even reparations won't get us there, but it'll get us a lot closer.

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Right? And it's going to take time. That's why it's about persistence and about

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patience. because you can't fix 400 years of damage in one election.

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But if you're consistent and persistent and focused and disciplined,

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that change is going to come.

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Anytime that you give up, that's a setback.

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And I don't care if you're a conservative or liberal and you're black.

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Your overall goal should be the uplift of people, your people,

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not catering to the other folks' agenda.

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We have to have an agenda. We have to have a focus.

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Whatever political ideology you have has to be based on the argument that this

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is going to uplift black people.

02:17:12.918 --> 02:17:20.878
The MAGA agenda, the Project 2025 is not in the benefit of black people in no chapter whatsoever.

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None. Not one word.

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To that. 900 something plus pages. It's not about us.

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We need to have a project 2026 and 27 and 28 for us, right?

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I mean, that's just real talk.

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And even though we're pushing this agenda for us, the bottom line is,

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and most people understand that when we push for stuff, it's beneficial to everybody.

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History has borne that out.

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Movements have started because of the movements that we created, right?

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The strategies that are used were strategies that we invented or we reimagined, right?

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So keep that in mind as,

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you know, this episode is about opening your political mind and putting ideas

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in your head and helping you envision things in a different way,

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I just need to constantly remind us that our focus should be about our community.

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And history has borne out that when we look out for our community,

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we're really looking out for the nation.

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And a lot of times people have said that black people have been the conscience of America.

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And we need to fulfill that obligation. We need to maintain that tradition.

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And, you know, I'm doing my part.

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There's others that are doing their part, whether it's through podcasts or through public service.

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But as a collective community, we've got to do that. It's up to us.

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Nobody's going to come save us. Not even another black president.

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Nobody's going to save us, but us.

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And we have to accept that and we have to.

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All right. That's all I got. Support Jamaica.gov.jm.

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That's support Jamaica.gov.jm if you want to contribute to the rebuild of that island.

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And yeah, just stay engaged, y'all. We can do this.

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We can do this. All right, guys. Until next time.