Living Loudly & Unlike The Rest Featuring Tammy McCall Browning and Dr. Chika Stacy Oriuwa

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Welcome. I'm Eric Fleming, host of A Moment with Eric Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

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If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.

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truth to power and to expand and improve the show.

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Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you

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listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.

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Third, go to the website, momenteric.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,

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leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

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Tell someone else about the podcast. encourage others to listen to the podcast,

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and share the podcast on your social media platforms, because it is time to

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NVG Podcast Network.

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Music.

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Thank you.

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Hello, and welcome to Another Moment with Eric Fleming. I am your host, Eric Fleming.

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Today is going to be a great show. I always say that because it is.

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It's always going to be a great show, whether it's just me talking or I have some guests.

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And I hope you agree with that, and that's why you're still listening.

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Today, I'm very, very honored to have two very special women.

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On the podcast, and I think that you will be inspired and encouraged by their stories.

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And so, you know, unlike some of the other stuff that's going on in the political

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world, you know, I hope that these two sisters, you know,

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give you some positivity to work through this week.

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So without any further ado, speaking about sisters, it's time for a moment of news with Grace G.

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Music.

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New York prosecutors have charged Luigi Mangione with murder for the killing

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of United Health Executive Brian Thompson following a five-day manhunt that

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ended with his capture in Pennsylvania.

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Syrian rebels ousted President Bashar al-Assad after capturing Damascus,

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marking a significant shift in power following over a decade of civil war.

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FBI Director Chris Wray announced he will resign early next year after President-elect

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Trump indicated plans to fire him.

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A federal appeals court upheld a law requiring TikTok's parent company,

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ByteDance, to divest the app in the U.S. by early next year.

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A New York jury acquitted Daniel Penny in the 2023 death of Jordan Neely,

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finding him not guilty of criminally negligent homicide.

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South Korean President Yoon Suk-yeol avoided impeachment after a parliamentary

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vote failed to meet the required threshold.

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A federal judge ruled that the U.S. Naval Academy can continue to use race in

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admissions, despite a Supreme Court decision banning similar policies at civilian colleges.

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A Connecticut appeals court confirmed a nearly $1.3 billion defamation verdict

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against Alex Jones for his false claims about the Sandy Hook shooting.

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A U.S. bankruptcy judge blocked The Onion from buying Infowars,

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saying the auction bids were insufficient.

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Lara Trump announced her resignation as co-chair of the RNC,

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citing interest in a potential U.S.

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Senate vacancy if Marco Rubio is confirmed as Secretary of State.

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Romania's top court annulled the ongoing presidential election due to claims

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of Russian interference, causing a complete rerun of the electoral process.

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Former Ghanaian President John Dramani Mahama made a political comeback by winning

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the presidential election, defeating Vice President Mahamudu Boumia.

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And American poet, educator, and activist Nikki Giovanni passed away at the age of 81.

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I am Grace G, and this has been a Moment of News.

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.

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And now it is time for my first guest, Tammy McCall Browning.

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Tammy McCall Browning is known by many from season eight of Real Housewives of Atlanta.

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In real life, she is a sustainable clothing designer who also is a modern ballet

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dancer, backstage manager for New Orleans Jazz Fest and has toured internationally with a rock band.

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Tammy lives with mental illness and has learned to embrace her illness and use it as a superpower.

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And it is in that capacity as an advocate and a spokesperson dealing with mental

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illness is why Miss Tammy is on the show.

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So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast.

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Tammy McCall Browning.

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Music.

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All right. Tammy McCall Browning. How you doing, ma'am? You doing good?

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I am doing wonderful. How are you doing? I'm doing fine, sister.

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Look, it is an honor for me to have you on. I ran across your profile on LinkedIn and I said,

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I want this sister on the podcast because it's an issue that that you're a spokesperson about.

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And it's a personal thing for you dealing with mental illness.

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And it's something that I tried to address as as a member of the legislature

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when I was in Mississippi, because I noticed every year that they would always

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cut the budget for the Department of Mental Health.

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And I just felt that that was going to be a problem down the road.

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And now 20 years later, I think it is. So anytime I have a chance to talk to

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somebody that is willing to discuss that issue,

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I want to give them an opportunity on the podcast and then somebody of your

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magnitude and celebrity.

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I'm really, really honored to do that.

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But you are you are a celebrity. Whether you want to admit it or not,

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you are. But look, before we get started, this is what I usually do with the

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guests to kind of break the ice.

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So I throw a quote at the guest and let them respond. And then we go from there. So this is your quote.

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Blessed is she who falls.

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Blessed is she who rises again. What does that quote mean to you?

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That's my whole life right there.

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That to me it sounds exactly like my story in a nutshell in a two sentence nutshell that,

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Because I completely fell to the depths and, you know, rose again,

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you know, by the grace of God, I'm still here. I technically shouldn't be.

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Yeah. So let's get it started with what is my Millie?

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My Millie is, okay, so part of my, let me back up.

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I'm like, I'm about to, I'm trying to tell you 10 stories all at one time.

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I'm trying to talk to my brain to slow down.

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So growing up, I never had any kind of issues with depression or anything.

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I was always extremely energetic, outgoing.

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My parents always say, you know, 50 years ago, they weren't really talking about

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ADHD because if they were, that would have been you. They would have been trying

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to put you on all the medications and all the, you know, whatever.

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But at the time, you know, I just was very, very hyperactive.

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And so they got me into ballet years before technically they were supposed to

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take me because I was too young.

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But they were tired of me flipping and jumping and smashing all over the house.

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But I never, ever had any kind of depressive or depression signs growing up.

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It was not until my brother passed away in 2014 that that that lever got switched on.

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So the first year after he

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passed i did not know it but i was in a

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manic episode that just happened to coincide

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with the filming of real house lives

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so i do not remember 95

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percent of that year so a

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lot of things people send me clips of and I don't remember doing it but obviously

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there was a lot of cameras you know videotaping everything or you know recording

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everything so a year a year after he passed it switched into the depressive

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side so I spent three months.

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Googling how to kill myself and, and also at the same time, trying to support

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my, my parents and my other siblings and acting like, acting like everything was okay.

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And, you know, all the rational things that are totally irrational,

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like Googling painless ways to kill yourself, you know, how to make it through

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the holidays, you know, after the death of a loved one.

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And there's so many ridiculous things.

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You can't do this to your parents because they already lost one child.

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So three months of that until the day that I woke up January 1st of 2016 and did the do, did the deal.

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Woke up the next day in the psychiatric ward.

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And that began my new life of figuring out, okay, so now I have this diagnosis.

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I'm bipolar 1 and I have MDD, major depressive disorder.

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So that first week when I was hospitalized, I really wasn't upset.

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I was like, okay, I don't want to be in here. I want to get out of here.

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But at least now I know what is going on with me. So now, okay, this is what it is.

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All right, now we got a plan. We can make a plan and we can fix this. We can get it together.

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And unfortunately, it is not that easy that you just pop a pill and you're fixed.

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So it took about two and a half years, going on three years,

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and I ended up hospitalized two more times because we were trying all the different

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combinations of cocktails.

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Antipsychotics, antidepressants, mood stabilizers, antidepressants.

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I mean, there's so many things that they have now in this modern era of medicine,

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but nothing was working for me.

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And I was what they term treatment resistant.

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Long story short, after that third hospitalization, it was really kind of do or die.

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And I just ended up deciding, my husband and I decided, you know what,

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we're going to have to make this really drastic step.

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And I ended up having to get electric shock treatment.

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And I had to get 16 rounds of that.

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And a lot of people these days don't know that electric shock treatment isn't

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some barbaric thing from the 1600s where they're trying to torture you.

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It is an actual medical procedure.

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But obviously, all other options have to be, you know, have to be tried before

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you get to that drastic of a measure.

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But for me, it did save my life. I do still have to be on medication,

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of course, the rest of my life.

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But that really got me back in the world of living because I really was not there.

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So my Millie is because I've got like a very dark sense of humor and I think

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I'm funny. My mom thinks I'm funny.

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I laughed to myself and talked to myself.

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And I decided, you know, well, okay, yeah, I have mental illness,

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but this is not a disability to me.

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I'm going to call it my Millie. So my mental illness is my Millie.

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Millie is short for mental illness.

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And I've decided that my Millie is my friend.

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And I am harnessing her as a superhero strength and running with it.

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And so I figured out the, and I did make, you did see my little video,

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that talking about this and sharing with people that this isn't a death sentence.

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It isn't anything to be scared of.

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We should be scared of it, I guess. But you shouldn't be ashamed of it.

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There are a lot of different ways that people can look at this and approach it.

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Other than all doom and gloom. So how did you harness it as a superpower?

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What super abilities do you think you have now that you probably weren't aware

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that you were able to do now that you've been diagnosed and you've set out a plan to live with this?

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Yeah. So I guess technically I always had this superpower. I just had not locked

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into it. But when you do the research.

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Historically, so many people that have changed the world in amazing ways are

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people that lived with mental illness, be it bipolar, schizophrenic,

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all different autism spectrum, like all of that.

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There's so many people that really have unbelievably changed the world that we're living with this.

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And the close connection between mental illness and creativity,

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between mental illness and genius, I mean, they cross the line.

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And so, obviously, if you're looking for it, you know, if you do the research

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and you're reading about it, you know, obviously, Van Gogh.

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I mean, you know, when I have 10,000 thoughts coming into my mind,

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I get really self-conscious because I know I'm stuttering because I'm trying

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to get all the thoughts out of my mouth at the same time.

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So, I apologize if I'm stuttering. I'm just trying to talk to myself and actually

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get it out of my mouth at the same time.

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Yeah, you're doing fine, actually. You know, I understand exactly what you're saying.

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And I get that, you know, because one of the challenges that all of us have

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is dealing with ourselves, accepting who we are and what we can be.

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I've suffered depression. I haven't been diagnosed with MDD But I did suffer

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from clinical depression And I've had to take medication for it And I have to

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monitor it And that's something I've documented on the show,

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And, you know, that leads me to a question about.

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How do you think the national population as a whole deals with mental health?

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Or do you even think that is dealing with the issue appropriately?

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And the reason why is because I'm asking this is because, you know,

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we're of an age, you and I, you're younger than me.

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But we're of an age where we grew up in our community and there were people

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where we just said, well, they different.

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You know what I'm saying? We didn't we didn't call it any kind of mental illness or whatever.

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Just say, well, you know, auntie is special because, you know,

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they are what they are. You know what I'm saying?

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And and we just kind of learned to live with it.

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And as we became more educated, then we started seeing the special education

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programs and in schools.

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And then, you know, all these facilities and people being able to go get treatments and so on.

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But I still think that we as a country just kind of push mental illness to the side,

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like it's an inconvenience that we have to deal with instead of something that

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we need to confront. Do you feel the same way about that?

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Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

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And, you know, obviously I'm not a politician or elected official or anything.

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That's a good thing that Miss Tammy, that's a good thing.

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Wait, I'm crazy, but I'm not that crazy.

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But yeah, I mean, it seems to me just, okay, so jumping off of what you just said,

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people look at the homeless situation as an inconvenience.

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And, oh, you know, look at all, you know, these people messing up, you know, whatever.

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And I didn't know it then, but I've always had a special area or place in my

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heart anytime I've come across any homeless friends.

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And for years and years, I volunteered with some homeless communities here in

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Atlanta well before this whole thing happened with me.

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So I didn't even know it. But afterwards, and because I've spent the last 10

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years getting to a place of stability,

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it makes sense to me now why I feel so at home and comfortable in homeless communities.

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Because when I'm meeting a homeless person or coming into interaction with them,

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I'm not looking at them as, oh, that's a homeless person.

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I'm looking at them like that's my brother that's me if I didn't if I.

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Didn't get to where I am right now, that would be me.

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So like how people complain about, oh, homelessness is getting worse and all this kind of stuff.

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You know, a huge percentage of those people are people that are living with

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untreated or undiagnosed mental illness.

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So that whole community, that area in itself is kind of a little microcosm of

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the world we're living in.

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And now I don't remember what the question was. I just got off on my own tangent.

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Well, I mean, you were on point because what I'm saying is, you know,

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it's how do you think we as a nation deal with mental illness?

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Do you think we deal with it appropriately?

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Are we not giving enough attention to it?

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What's your take on that? Honestly, what I think is we're not dealing with it appropriately.

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And I think that most people self-medicate.

00:21:02.684 --> 00:21:06.884
That's what I think. Most people that are dealing with it are self-medicating.

00:21:07.804 --> 00:21:13.084
So rather than go to a doctor and seek treatment,

00:21:13.644 --> 00:21:17.224
they self-medicate and then you end up,

00:21:18.184 --> 00:21:27.424
dead or homeless or not living the full life that you could live if you could

00:21:27.424 --> 00:21:29.024
get the proper medical care.

00:21:29.304 --> 00:21:33.524
Do you think the pandemic kind of accelerated,

00:21:35.204 --> 00:21:41.004
Where we are now, as far as people coming to grips with either trying to self-medicate

00:21:41.004 --> 00:21:43.804
or actually trying to get some help dealing with mental illness?

00:21:44.284 --> 00:21:50.824
I mean, the pandemic, I think, just magnified it times a thousand.

00:21:51.604 --> 00:21:56.544
And I, once again, I'm not a politician or elected official.

00:21:58.324 --> 00:22:02.824
But number one, I know that God created doctors and science for a reason.

00:22:04.764 --> 00:22:07.944
And doctors and science saved my life.

00:22:08.324 --> 00:22:13.524
So because I know that there is help out there, oh, let me back up.

00:22:13.724 --> 00:22:15.344
Let me back up about this part.

00:22:15.824 --> 00:22:21.084
I left my brother who was my seven years, my junior.

00:22:21.624 --> 00:22:29.224
Let me back. So he, even though I never had any depression issues growing up, he did very, very young.

00:22:29.384 --> 00:22:32.824
And he started self-medicating very young, around like 10 or 11,

00:22:33.084 --> 00:22:34.744
he started drinking and self-medicating.

00:22:35.244 --> 00:22:39.964
And when you have a chemical imbalance like that, and you're introducing all

00:22:39.964 --> 00:22:43.464
the, you know, this alcohol and then harder drugs as he got older,

00:22:44.104 --> 00:22:50.104
you know, it spirals, you know, to a whole nother level where it makes it 2,000

00:22:50.104 --> 00:22:53.804
times harder to rein it in and get control over it.

00:22:54.824 --> 00:22:59.884
So even though my family and I had dealt with all of the issues my brother was

00:22:59.884 --> 00:23:01.264
going with all those years.

00:23:01.664 --> 00:23:07.904
And I, as his oldest sister, for the last almost about five years of his life,

00:23:08.124 --> 00:23:10.904
he lived with me before he passed away.

00:23:11.124 --> 00:23:15.404
And even though I saw everything he was going through and I kept trying to get

00:23:15.404 --> 00:23:18.364
him to go to doctor's appointments and take his medicine.

00:23:18.524 --> 00:23:23.264
And a lot of people, well, maybe they will go for that first appointment and

00:23:23.264 --> 00:23:28.164
maybe they will try a medication, but they don't like the way it makes them

00:23:28.164 --> 00:23:29.324
feel and they give up on it.

00:23:30.730 --> 00:23:39.150
That whole thing about you've got to, if you had diabetes, you would do whatever

00:23:39.150 --> 00:23:40.510
you had to do to get that insulin.

00:23:41.130 --> 00:23:49.010
And so why people don't give that same kind of attention and sense of importance

00:23:49.010 --> 00:23:54.130
to their brain is something that I'm never going to understand.

00:23:54.130 --> 00:24:03.910
So I know that I have to have this medication for me to be stable and live a good, fulfilling life.

00:24:04.750 --> 00:24:11.690
So with him, you know, he never would buy into that doctors and science could help him.

00:24:11.910 --> 00:24:16.050
He always just went back to self-medicating until he self-medicated to death.

00:24:16.810 --> 00:24:24.050
So I think that I've figured out in this last 10 years that I am supposed to

00:24:24.050 --> 00:24:28.490
talk about it because I am alive and my brother is not.

00:24:28.930 --> 00:24:37.030
And in a simplified way, he's not alive because he didn't believe that doctors

00:24:37.030 --> 00:24:38.070
and science could help him.

00:24:38.830 --> 00:24:44.210
So you mentioned some of your work. Talk specifically about the work you do

00:24:44.210 --> 00:24:47.010
with the open door community in Atlanta.

00:24:47.990 --> 00:24:56.130
Oh, well, I miss open door so much. So, yeah. So open door was a faith-based community.

00:24:57.197 --> 00:25:05.877
Living space for, and communal, like church services, and we would feed the

00:25:05.877 --> 00:25:09.337
homeless in the community, but we would really feed them.

00:25:09.497 --> 00:25:13.737
It wasn't like a food bank or whatever, where they, you know,

00:25:14.037 --> 00:25:16.437
come in and just get the food and then go take it to themselves.

00:25:16.777 --> 00:25:20.997
What made Open Door different was that we actually, the volunteers,

00:25:21.477 --> 00:25:23.457
we actually, you know, prepared all the food.

00:25:24.477 --> 00:25:29.997
We had everybody get seated. We would seat them and we would actually make their

00:25:29.997 --> 00:25:33.197
plates and come and serve it and bring it to them like they were in a restaurant.

00:25:33.497 --> 00:25:37.517
So it really just was such a special, special place.

00:25:37.577 --> 00:25:40.317
And I was heartbroken when they had to close their doors because they had been

00:25:40.317 --> 00:25:41.977
there for about 35 years, I believe.

00:25:42.917 --> 00:25:48.357
But the couples that had started it were getting into their late 80s and early 90s.

00:25:48.777 --> 00:25:52.077
So they really just physically couldn't

00:25:52.077 --> 00:25:55.317
run it anymore and they had such a difficult time trying

00:25:55.317 --> 00:25:58.797
to train and and

00:25:58.797 --> 00:26:03.557
get people that could that could go and live in the space and do what they were

00:26:03.557 --> 00:26:09.497
doing at the level they were doing it because I guess you know people people

00:26:09.497 --> 00:26:14.977
our age and younger aren't willing to make that that kind of sacrifice in those

00:26:14.977 --> 00:26:17.997
kind of living situations but I mean obviously I didn't live there.

00:26:18.077 --> 00:26:22.657
I was just a volunteer, but it really impacted me really, really deeply.

00:26:22.837 --> 00:26:25.657
It just breaks my heart that they had to close.

00:26:25.937 --> 00:26:32.677
But then I ended up doing volunteer work with another nonprofit here in Decatur,

00:26:33.017 --> 00:26:36.477
right outside of Atlanta, called A Home for Everyone in DeKalb.

00:26:36.777 --> 00:26:41.837
And their main mission is to get people housing.

00:26:42.697 --> 00:26:48.597
But when I got associated with them was when COVID hit.

00:26:48.877 --> 00:26:53.477
And that was because another church that I had been doing volunteer work,

00:26:53.657 --> 00:26:56.477
when COVID hit, all the churches had to close down.

00:26:57.674 --> 00:27:01.734
And so me and these two other ladies that have been volunteers at Decatur Presbyterian,

00:27:01.934 --> 00:27:04.574
we're like, okay, well, how are our friends going to eat?

00:27:04.734 --> 00:27:09.754
Because all of the homeless community in Decatur, that's where they would get

00:27:09.754 --> 00:27:14.814
their meals was the churches would serve them at lunchtime.

00:27:15.574 --> 00:27:19.254
So we were like, well, how are they going to eat? So we're like,

00:27:19.334 --> 00:27:24.134
okay, well, we'll just tell the community neighbors and everybody that we're

00:27:24.134 --> 00:27:28.114
taking donations and we'll just go and we'll serve them.

00:27:28.594 --> 00:27:30.394
We'll go to them and we'll serve them.

00:27:30.954 --> 00:27:34.494
You know, at the time we're like, oh, you know, it'll be a couple of weeks.

00:27:35.094 --> 00:27:37.954
We'll just get all these donations. It'll be a couple of weeks.

00:27:38.074 --> 00:27:41.554
So we'll just go and take it to them. And of course, a year and a half later,

00:27:41.754 --> 00:27:47.914
we had still been out there every single day before finally we got the churches to take it back over.

00:27:48.134 --> 00:27:56.934
But working with them and doing that is what I believe in my heart and my soul

00:27:56.934 --> 00:28:03.934
got me through that first two years of the pandemic was knowing that I had to

00:28:03.934 --> 00:28:05.814
be there to make sure these people ate every day.

00:28:05.814 --> 00:28:14.154
And it was a sense of community with them and making sure that they had what they needed.

00:28:14.354 --> 00:28:20.354
And it helped me tremendously get through that first two years of the pandemic.

00:28:21.458 --> 00:28:27.518
So I know that you've stated a couple of times that you're not an elected official,

00:28:27.518 --> 00:28:35.238
but what would you like to see done in the public policy arena to address mental health?

00:28:35.518 --> 00:28:41.638
Because like I said, my biggest concern, I served nine years and it was like

00:28:41.638 --> 00:28:46.358
every year the state of Mississippi would cut the Department of Mental Health budget.

00:28:46.538 --> 00:28:50.018
If we were going to cut nobody else's, we were going to cut that department.

00:28:50.698 --> 00:28:56.538
And I just I just figured in my mind at some point in time we were going to pay for that.

00:28:57.878 --> 00:29:01.898
So and I know that we weren't the only state doing that.

00:29:02.058 --> 00:29:10.278
So what would you like to see elected officials do to to to address this this issue?

00:29:10.738 --> 00:29:12.678
Well, wow.

00:29:13.518 --> 00:29:17.458
I mean, that's a super loaded question. Like, I feel like I need to go do some

00:29:17.458 --> 00:29:19.418
research to answer this question adequately.

00:29:20.718 --> 00:29:27.178
But, I mean, just off the top of my head, one thing would be people that are

00:29:27.178 --> 00:29:34.018
suffering with mental illness, maybe not putting them in jail.

00:29:35.478 --> 00:29:38.378
You know figuring out some kind

00:29:38.378 --> 00:29:41.938
of segue between a hospital

00:29:41.938 --> 00:29:44.918
and just not

00:29:44.918 --> 00:29:50.518
jail like you know if okay maybe they get arrested because they did something

00:29:50.518 --> 00:29:59.918
that was a crime but once they get there and they and you know whoever is working

00:29:59.918 --> 00:30:02.758
at the jail knows okay this person is.

00:30:03.922 --> 00:30:08.742
Then having medical people say this person is suffering with ABC,

00:30:09.422 --> 00:30:17.422
which is a mental illness, maybe not keeping him in jail, maybe some kind of

00:30:17.422 --> 00:30:21.702
segue between the jail and hospitalization so that they could actually...

00:30:21.702 --> 00:30:26.862
Like, what if this person is on the street committing these crimes to eat,

00:30:27.082 --> 00:30:34.122
but if they had access to adequate health care and actually got on the medication that they needed,

00:30:34.402 --> 00:30:38.022
where they could actually function and, you know,

00:30:38.622 --> 00:30:40.742
do a job and not commit crimes.

00:30:40.902 --> 00:30:45.462
Like, I mean, it's obviously that just sounds so.

00:30:45.702 --> 00:30:49.362
Well, let me let me let me let me tell you a story from personal experience.

00:30:49.362 --> 00:30:54.402
So one of the other professions I've been in other than politics has been law enforcement.

00:30:55.322 --> 00:31:00.422
And when I was in Mississippi, I was working with the sheriff's office and deputies

00:31:00.422 --> 00:31:04.022
brought in this guy and young black man.

00:31:04.482 --> 00:31:08.722
And he seemed kind of belligerent. Right. He seemed like he was fighting all the time.

00:31:08.822 --> 00:31:11.822
And, of course, if you got police officers grabbing you around,

00:31:11.942 --> 00:31:14.642
you're going to try to fight, too. Right. Especially if you show up at the jail.

00:31:15.362 --> 00:31:19.202
So and then every now and then I would hear him blurt out like some.

00:31:19.362 --> 00:31:23.682
Cussing, which, you know, usually when we're in those situations, that's natural.

00:31:23.922 --> 00:31:25.842
Somebody mad, they're going to cuss you out. Right.

00:31:26.782 --> 00:31:31.922
So I had the privilege and I say that I had the privilege to book him in.

00:31:32.802 --> 00:31:38.482
And so as we were talking, you know, he was giving me his information. He was very calm.

00:31:38.882 --> 00:31:44.662
And then I think it was some, either I asked him what his address was or something

00:31:44.662 --> 00:31:47.382
really benign. And all of a sudden he just started cussing.

00:31:49.042 --> 00:31:53.282
And then he went back to answer my question. So at that point I said,

00:31:53.282 --> 00:31:56.142
I wonder if he's suffering from Tourette's.

00:31:56.202 --> 00:32:00.122
Now I'm not a doctor, but I kind of figured that was part of the behavior.

00:32:00.342 --> 00:32:05.502
So the next, I asked him, I skipped down and I said, are you taking any medication?

00:32:06.884 --> 00:32:11.424
And he said, yes. I said, when was the last time you took your medication?

00:32:11.664 --> 00:32:14.744
He said, well, it's been a minute because I haven't been able to afford it.

00:32:15.364 --> 00:32:20.224
And, you know, I flipped over the paper. I said, write it down what you're supposed to be taking.

00:32:21.184 --> 00:32:25.184
So he was being charged with disturbing the peace or whatever the case may be.

00:32:25.184 --> 00:32:27.564
He was he was at a store and had an episode.

00:32:29.204 --> 00:32:36.204
So basically his family got him and he wasn't a problem. He had never had any arrest prior to that.

00:32:36.784 --> 00:32:39.044
He worked like in construction.

00:32:40.424 --> 00:32:44.904
And fortunately, we were able to get him in and get him out so he didn't miss a day of work.

00:32:44.964 --> 00:32:49.184
And the charges were dropped because they realized, you know,

00:32:49.344 --> 00:32:52.504
he needed medical attention. He needed his medicine.

00:32:53.984 --> 00:33:00.124
So, you know, that that was a good story. But a lot of times what you're saying

00:33:00.124 --> 00:33:06.044
is that people don't don't have somebody that that's aware of what's happening

00:33:06.044 --> 00:33:07.964
or it'll take the time to be that aware.

00:33:08.244 --> 00:33:13.824
And I've seen that and working in both Mississippi jail and here at Fulton County.

00:33:14.664 --> 00:33:18.444
We've got we've got a whole. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I was going to say,

00:33:18.564 --> 00:33:24.444
but that guy got lucky because you booked him in, you booked him in and had

00:33:24.444 --> 00:33:25.984
the presence of mind to say,

00:33:26.164 --> 00:33:30.384
oh, this guy's in crisis. This guy, you know, needs some help.

00:33:30.644 --> 00:33:35.124
So had it been somebody else that booked him in, he'd probably still be in and

00:33:35.124 --> 00:33:37.144
out of jail, you know, right now.

00:33:37.524 --> 00:33:42.964
Right. And that's and that's, I think, the issue that you want us to.

00:33:42.964 --> 00:33:46.524
But when I say us, people in public policy,

00:33:46.744 --> 00:33:54.124
you want you want them to focus more in on treatment as opposed to punishment

00:33:54.124 --> 00:33:58.244
for even whatever crime they may be accused of.

00:33:59.004 --> 00:34:05.104
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the and now that you touched on the law enforcement part

00:34:05.104 --> 00:34:11.284
of it, the even with my brother before he passed, he had ended up arrested.

00:34:12.784 --> 00:34:18.924
Because he had taken some drug and I guess a similar situation to what you're talking about.

00:34:20.824 --> 00:34:23.804
Because you know about Fulton County, so you know about the MARTA system.

00:34:24.044 --> 00:34:29.024
So he had been some MARTA station and I don't know what drug it was that he

00:34:29.024 --> 00:34:34.224
had taken, but he flipped out and got arrested.

00:34:34.564 --> 00:34:43.164
And so even now to this day, It's this October made 10 years since he passed

00:34:43.164 --> 00:34:47.444
away Even now to this day, I still get mailed to my house.

00:34:49.114 --> 00:34:54.974
About court appearances and stuff that he missed 10 years later.

00:34:56.234 --> 00:35:02.334
So, you know, once they have you in that system, you know, it's not like they're

00:35:02.334 --> 00:35:09.434
going to say, oh, you know, you don't have to show a purport or you don't have to this.

00:35:10.274 --> 00:35:14.034
And if you miss a phone call or you miss anything, you know,

00:35:14.134 --> 00:35:16.914
then you're going back to jail. There's more fees.

00:35:17.214 --> 00:35:24.174
There's more time. And how can somebody get the medical treatment and everything

00:35:24.174 --> 00:35:31.494
that they need in place if they're always worried about they're going to go

00:35:31.494 --> 00:35:33.914
back to jail because they missed,

00:35:34.074 --> 00:35:36.374
they didn't pay a fine or they didn't this.

00:35:36.374 --> 00:35:44.974
And I mean, it's just like that does infuriate me where people can't get the

00:35:44.974 --> 00:35:49.814
help that they need because they're afraid of getting arrested again or going back to jail.

00:35:50.534 --> 00:35:57.254
So what message do you want to send to the African-American community about mental illness?

00:35:57.454 --> 00:36:03.974
How do you how do you how do you want us to not stigmatize it?

00:36:03.974 --> 00:36:11.954
So simply, I would just want people to take their brain as seriously as they

00:36:11.954 --> 00:36:15.854
take cancer, diabetes, heart attack.

00:36:16.214 --> 00:36:21.954
I mean, really simply take it, take it as seriously as you take every other medical condition.

00:36:23.250 --> 00:36:26.790
Yeah. And that's very important because, you know, in our community and especially

00:36:26.790 --> 00:36:30.010
us black men, I just I'll be transparent.

00:36:30.950 --> 00:36:35.610
It's hard to get us to go to the doctor for anything, whether it's it's it's

00:36:35.610 --> 00:36:37.030
physical, mental, whatever.

00:36:37.170 --> 00:36:42.070
So I feel very fortunate that I'm not as stubborn as my dad.

00:36:44.210 --> 00:36:50.290
And I've whenever something's been wrong with me, you know, I address it.

00:36:50.290 --> 00:36:55.530
And and it's been a blessing in my life that I've taken those steps.

00:36:56.010 --> 00:37:05.770
And I would encourage anybody listening that we can't ignore that part of our lives anymore.

00:37:05.770 --> 00:37:12.130
We have to address not only our physical, but our mental in order to make sure

00:37:12.130 --> 00:37:17.470
that we can do because we as black people have dealt with stuff that a lot of

00:37:17.470 --> 00:37:18.970
other people haven't dealt with.

00:37:18.970 --> 00:37:25.190
And so there's there's physical trauma and mental trauma attached to that generational trauma.

00:37:25.210 --> 00:37:27.310
That's right. And we need to address it.

00:37:27.470 --> 00:37:36.310
So I appreciate you willing to get out there and and to to be brave and to talk

00:37:36.310 --> 00:37:39.850
about this issue candidly and courageously. courageously.

00:37:40.750 --> 00:37:44.450
So Ms. Tammy, if people want to get in touch with you, if they want you to come

00:37:44.450 --> 00:37:50.150
speak at the church or be on somebody else's podcast, how can people reach out to you?

00:37:50.950 --> 00:37:56.290
Oh, absolutely. I'm on Instagram, all one word, Tammy McCall Browning. Same with Facebook.

00:37:57.230 --> 00:37:58.750
You told me that I'm on LinkedIn.

00:38:00.450 --> 00:38:03.430
I don't even remember getting everything together for LinkedIn,

00:38:03.430 --> 00:38:07.490
but you told me that I was on there. So LinkedIn, Tammy McCall Browning.

00:38:08.170 --> 00:38:15.590
Oh, also I have a website, tamyswing.com because I actually am a clothing designer.

00:38:15.790 --> 00:38:18.850
So I've got some interesting stuff on there.

00:38:19.210 --> 00:38:22.430
But yeah, Instagram is the easiest thing for me to navigate.

00:38:22.790 --> 00:38:28.810
I am very, not very competent on all these technological things,

00:38:28.810 --> 00:38:34.630
but Instagram is the one thing that I can navigate easily. All right.

00:38:35.250 --> 00:38:40.830
Well, again, Tammy McCall Browning, I am really, really honored to meet you.

00:38:41.090 --> 00:38:44.030
I am honored that you came on the podcast. And again,

00:38:44.030 --> 00:38:49.990
I am very encouraged that you are willing to go forth and talk about this issue

00:38:49.990 --> 00:38:57.210
and get us to a level of comfort where we can do something positive to address

00:38:57.210 --> 00:39:00.290
it and make sure that people are getting the care that they need.

00:39:00.530 --> 00:39:02.650
So thank you again.

00:39:03.170 --> 00:39:06.690
Thank you so much. All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

00:39:08.240 --> 00:39:26.320
Music.

00:39:26.482 --> 00:39:30.322
All right. And we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest,

00:39:30.882 --> 00:39:33.722
Dr. Chica Stacey O'Rioa.

00:39:34.302 --> 00:39:40.422
When a Time Magazine's 2021 Next Generation Leaders and named on McLean's Power

00:39:40.422 --> 00:39:47.642
50 list in 2022, Chica Stacey O'Rioa, M.D., is a medical trailblazer,

00:39:48.382 --> 00:39:50.602
spearheading change in health care and beyond.

00:39:51.362 --> 00:39:55.062
Currently a resident doctor in psychiatry at the University of Toronto,

00:39:55.882 --> 00:40:02.302
Oriowa is a graduate of the school's Tamerti faculty of medicine and has served

00:40:02.302 --> 00:40:04.282
a variety of board positions.

00:40:04.862 --> 00:40:10.622
Oriowa was also honored in Mattel's Thank You Heroes campaign with a one-of-a-kind

00:40:10.622 --> 00:40:16.422
Barbie doll made in her image to commemorate her contributions as a frontline healthcare worker.

00:40:17.302 --> 00:40:22.722
Recently, Arirwa established the Dr. Chica Arirwa Award for the advancement

00:40:22.722 --> 00:40:31.042
of black health at Temerity Medicine, which will be awarded annually to a graduating medical student.

00:40:31.322 --> 00:40:35.882
And she has also written a book called Unlike the Rest.

00:40:35.882 --> 00:40:43.242
So we're going to be discussing the book and some other experiences that she

00:40:43.242 --> 00:40:49.182
has had in her pursuit to being a doctor in Canada.

00:40:49.502 --> 00:40:53.042
So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a

00:40:53.042 --> 00:40:56.002
guest on this podcast, Dr.

00:40:56.122 --> 00:40:59.222
Chica Stacey Oriola.

00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:10.640
Music.

00:41:10.422 --> 00:41:18.142
All right. Dr. Chica Stacey Oriowa. How are you doing, ma'am? You doing good?

00:41:19.202 --> 00:41:22.782
I'm doing so well. So excited to be here and chat with you.

00:41:23.542 --> 00:41:27.782
Well, I am definitely honored to have you on.

00:41:28.062 --> 00:41:35.182
And a lot of the questions I'm going to ask you is going to be based on your

00:41:35.182 --> 00:41:37.922
book, unlike the rest, a doctor's story.

00:41:38.482 --> 00:41:44.542
And because it's a very fascinating read, it's written by somebody.

00:41:45.062 --> 00:41:50.262
If you read the book, you would think that this was a person who was basically

00:41:50.262 --> 00:41:54.562
about to retire and just was reflecting on life. But you're a very,

00:41:54.662 --> 00:41:57.342
very young, very cerebral sister.

00:41:58.382 --> 00:42:03.982
And so the way that you articulate what goes on in your life.

00:42:03.982 --> 00:42:08.282
It's pretty obvious that writing was your other passion.

00:42:08.782 --> 00:42:14.962
Oh, thank you. So what I like to do to break the ice is to throw a quote at the guest.

00:42:15.622 --> 00:42:22.642
So this is your quote. There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story

00:42:22.642 --> 00:42:25.222
inside you. What does that quote mean to you?

00:42:26.429 --> 00:42:31.589
So, well, that's the quote that's at the beginning of my book by Dr. Maya Angelou.

00:42:31.929 --> 00:42:38.689
And that quote is so resonant with me, not only because she is one of my greatest

00:42:38.689 --> 00:42:44.269
role models in life, both from an academic perspective, but also as an artist,

00:42:44.369 --> 00:42:46.649
as a poet, as a performer, as a public speaker.

00:42:46.869 --> 00:42:53.909
But that quote, what it means to me is that there is an onus upon us.

00:42:53.909 --> 00:43:00.129
I feel like as writers, as wordsmiths, to take our life story,

00:43:00.349 --> 00:43:04.949
to take the things that we observe and what we witness, and to give it to the world.

00:43:05.109 --> 00:43:09.569
And I find that there is a singular pain, as Dr.

00:43:09.769 --> 00:43:16.169
Angelo had noted, there is a singular pain associated with keeping these untold

00:43:16.169 --> 00:43:19.829
stories, with not sharing them, with not giving them oxygen.

00:43:19.829 --> 00:43:23.989
And I found throughout the course of my life, but especially within medicine

00:43:23.989 --> 00:43:26.429
and shortly after graduating from medical school,

00:43:26.609 --> 00:43:29.649
being in residency, and when I started to embark on writing this book,

00:43:29.789 --> 00:43:37.689
that when I finally was able to put onto the page, put into words what it is

00:43:37.689 --> 00:43:40.529
that I had experienced as a woman,

00:43:40.729 --> 00:43:44.369
as a Black woman navigating medicine, as a daughter of immigrants.

00:43:44.589 --> 00:43:49.809
Navigating this culture that is so vastly different from where my page was.

00:43:49.829 --> 00:43:56.469
Parents grew up and being at these different intersections and having these

00:43:56.469 --> 00:44:00.029
different roles and different identities coalescing into my experience that

00:44:00.029 --> 00:44:02.289
when I was finally able to put it into words,

00:44:02.389 --> 00:44:05.409
I felt liberated in such a great sense.

00:44:05.569 --> 00:44:10.849
And I didn't even realize almost how painful it was for me to hold all of these

00:44:10.849 --> 00:44:12.029
different stories inside.

00:44:12.229 --> 00:44:20.249
And so that quote from Maya Angelou is a beautiful summation of the purpose of the book. So,

00:44:21.244 --> 00:44:26.864
Why is it important to have an unflinching examination of life?

00:44:30.324 --> 00:44:37.344
So having an unflinching examination of the human experience is core and central

00:44:37.344 --> 00:44:42.564
to not only my work as an artist, as a poet, as a writer, but central to my

00:44:42.564 --> 00:44:45.244
work as a physician, as a doctor.

00:44:45.244 --> 00:44:50.984
And why it is so important that when we are able to actually look at some of the more,

00:44:52.724 --> 00:44:57.644
befuddling underbellies of the human experience, some of the most painful observations

00:44:57.644 --> 00:44:59.444
that we can make in humanity,

00:44:59.724 --> 00:45:04.784
that is not only what is important for me to do as a poet, but as a physician,

00:45:05.024 --> 00:45:12.324
but what that actually enables me to do is that it builds my capacity for humanity, for compassion,

00:45:12.744 --> 00:45:18.664
for really being able to sit with others in their own adversity,

00:45:18.904 --> 00:45:20.924
in the mire of their own experiences.

00:45:21.324 --> 00:45:25.004
And so when I say it's important to have that unflinching examination,

00:45:25.004 --> 00:45:26.544
we have to be able to do that.

00:45:26.604 --> 00:45:30.984
And I find that that's also central to being an effective advocate,

00:45:31.284 --> 00:45:35.984
to being an effective ally for other disenfranchised communities when you are

00:45:35.984 --> 00:45:37.444
able to look at their pain,

00:45:37.684 --> 00:45:42.744
when you are able to validate their experiences, when you don't turn away from

00:45:42.744 --> 00:45:48.904
the suffering of others, that is where you unleash your capacity for your own humanity.

00:45:49.304 --> 00:45:52.024
Why do you think we fall short of that now?

00:45:53.824 --> 00:45:57.464
I'm here in the United States, and I'm,

00:45:58.576 --> 00:46:03.336
In the in the political leadership that I see, I don't I don't the majority

00:46:03.336 --> 00:46:07.036
of people, I don't see that it's more concerned about elections.

00:46:07.036 --> 00:46:12.576
It's more concerned about publicity, whether it's on social media and the news.

00:46:13.836 --> 00:46:18.796
And I think as close as the election was, as far as popular vote goes,

00:46:18.936 --> 00:46:23.176
I don't I don't feel that people are are having that examination.

00:46:23.616 --> 00:46:25.616
Why do you think that is?

00:46:26.576 --> 00:46:33.036
You know, what I would say is that when we are called to do that deeper,

00:46:33.436 --> 00:46:38.996
more granular assessment of what is actually at hand in the ways in which our

00:46:38.996 --> 00:46:43.356
humanity is being threatened, in the ways in which our personhood is being threatened

00:46:43.356 --> 00:46:45.316
in a variety of different contexts,

00:46:45.696 --> 00:46:50.036
oftentimes it is just too painful for people to look at it or there is truly

00:46:50.036 --> 00:46:53.516
a privilege in being able to look away.

00:46:53.516 --> 00:46:58.616
You know, that phrase, ignorance is bliss, as cliche as that is,

00:46:58.896 --> 00:47:02.956
there really is a significant amount of truth to it, right?

00:47:03.236 --> 00:47:08.356
Not having to look at things that are painful or jarring or that make us call

00:47:08.356 --> 00:47:14.216
into question our own understanding of things or our own actions, our own value systems.

00:47:14.716 --> 00:47:20.896
All of these things are so can in and of itself be such a painful thing that

00:47:20.896 --> 00:47:23.896
you just want to look away but I also think that you know.

00:47:25.088 --> 00:47:30.468
It also requires of us, it's almost a call to action in a certain sense.

00:47:30.928 --> 00:47:34.208
And I believe it was James Baldwin.

00:47:35.168 --> 00:47:38.668
I don't want to misspeak as to who the author of this quote was,

00:47:38.768 --> 00:47:42.928
but when they say that, you know, to be Black is to be angry all of the time

00:47:42.928 --> 00:47:45.588
or to be in a constant state of rage.

00:47:46.068 --> 00:47:49.708
And I think that that in and of itself is a perfect summation,

00:47:49.988 --> 00:47:54.028
again, of why it is that it can be so much easier to just look away.

00:47:54.028 --> 00:47:56.468
Because once you know, you cannot unknow.

00:47:56.888 --> 00:47:59.528
And then once you know, you feel called to do something about it.

00:47:59.628 --> 00:48:02.548
And then that becomes a shared responsibility, a collective onus.

00:48:02.688 --> 00:48:07.308
And for some people, it simply is just easier to go about as if you did not

00:48:07.308 --> 00:48:09.348
know all of these things in the first place.

00:48:10.088 --> 00:48:12.988
So I'm going to stay on this rabbit hole just a little bit. By the way,

00:48:13.068 --> 00:48:16.548
that was Baldwin. You know you're smarter than me, so I don't know why you were

00:48:16.548 --> 00:48:17.408
doubting yourself on it.

00:48:19.248 --> 00:48:25.608
But you're going to be on a program this podcast with a guest that I've had

00:48:25.608 --> 00:48:27.808
that's been an advocate dealing with mental illness.

00:48:28.588 --> 00:48:33.368
And you are in the practice of psychiatry.

00:48:34.608 --> 00:48:39.768
Now, even though you're in a different country, you pay attention to what's

00:48:39.768 --> 00:48:43.148
going on in the United States and all that. Of course.

00:48:44.108 --> 00:48:49.468
But let me ask this. In Canada, is there a similar stigma toward mental illness

00:48:49.468 --> 00:48:53.088
like it is in the United States? Is it something that's looked down upon?

00:48:53.968 --> 00:48:58.888
Or is Canada more progressive in dealing with it?

00:48:59.848 --> 00:49:05.888
I would say that the stigma towards mental illness is one of the few things

00:49:05.888 --> 00:49:12.388
that is truly universal alongside anti-Blackness, which I think we have a lot

00:49:12.388 --> 00:49:13.188
of understanding there.

00:49:13.188 --> 00:49:19.188
But the stigma towards mental illness is a ubiquitous and permeating force.

00:49:19.408 --> 00:49:25.868
And so here in Canada, absolutely, that is something that we culturally are still grappling with.

00:49:25.868 --> 00:49:34.888
I think that since the pandemic, there are many more conversations around mental

00:49:34.888 --> 00:49:37.268
health because I think for the first time,

00:49:37.408 --> 00:49:43.128
a lot of individuals who had no pre-existing mental illness were now presenting in droves.

00:49:43.128 --> 00:49:48.528
There was a tsunami wave of mental illness because individuals were being confronted

00:49:48.528 --> 00:49:54.368
with isolation, with uncertainty, with, you know, massive suffering of,

00:49:54.588 --> 00:49:56.088
you know, what occurred within the pandemic.

00:49:56.288 --> 00:50:01.228
And so we saw this huge influx of mental health issues within the population,

00:50:01.408 --> 00:50:05.428
within the population, such that we needed to have these kinds of conversations

00:50:05.428 --> 00:50:09.868
much more transparently, much more vulnerably because of who it was affecting.

00:50:10.811 --> 00:50:13.271
And even if individuals weren't directly affected themselves,

00:50:13.891 --> 00:50:18.711
there is, with almost 100% certainty, and I don't want to exaggerate too much,

00:50:18.831 --> 00:50:24.691
but almost certainly we know somebody in our lives who is struggling with some kind of mental illness,

00:50:24.971 --> 00:50:29.271
whether that's generalized anxiety disorder, all the way to a more severe mental

00:50:29.271 --> 00:50:30.711
illness such as schizophrenia.

00:50:31.051 --> 00:50:35.711
So we know someone who is dealing with this if we ourselves are not dealing

00:50:35.711 --> 00:50:40.511
with some area of that. And yet there is still remains the stigma.

00:50:40.651 --> 00:50:46.411
And I would even say that that stigma in many ways is transferred onto the field of psychiatry.

00:50:46.551 --> 00:50:52.011
It's transferred onto psychiatrists as well with respect to, you know,

00:50:52.711 --> 00:50:56.471
whether or not sometimes when we're dealing with these illnesses,

00:50:56.891 --> 00:51:02.131
some individuals may want to challenge the legitimacy of mental illness and

00:51:02.131 --> 00:51:05.631
say, you know, well, if mental illness isn't real, then is the practice of psychiatry?

00:51:05.631 --> 00:51:08.431
Is it also as legitimate as other areas of medicine?

00:51:08.691 --> 00:51:15.231
And so we see these issues. And then, you know, as it relates to the disparities

00:51:15.231 --> 00:51:20.411
within mental illness, as it relates to the different intersections of race,

00:51:20.551 --> 00:51:25.971
that we look to the states and there's so much rich data as it pertains to racism

00:51:25.971 --> 00:51:29.191
within the mental health system, that here in Canada,

00:51:29.351 --> 00:51:33.951
we're just now starting to build up the repertoire of evidence to support the

00:51:33.951 --> 00:51:39.031
fact that these same issues issues are also persisting within the Canadian medical system.

00:51:39.911 --> 00:51:47.951
So quick answer. Can Canada do better from a public policy standpoint in dealing

00:51:47.951 --> 00:51:49.591
with mental illness? Yes or no?

00:51:50.571 --> 00:51:55.871
Absolutely. Yes. Okay. All right. Let's get out of that rabbit hole and get back to the book.

00:51:56.311 --> 00:52:02.031
But, but I couldn't, I couldn't pass that up because that's an issue that I've,

00:52:02.031 --> 00:52:05.111
I've dealt with personally as far as dealing with depression.

00:52:05.631 --> 00:52:12.851
And as an elected official in fighting for dollars for mental health.

00:52:13.111 --> 00:52:17.031
So I had to take advantage of that opportunity.

00:52:17.631 --> 00:52:26.371
So getting back to the book, what challenge do you feel is the hardest to navigate

00:52:26.371 --> 00:52:28.271
as a woman of Nigerian heritage?

00:52:28.591 --> 00:52:31.671
Is it misogyny or is it racism?

00:52:33.211 --> 00:52:36.891
No, that's the question. Oh, man.

00:52:37.711 --> 00:52:41.791
You know, I think it depends on the context, right?

00:52:41.951 --> 00:52:49.731
In the Nigerian community, a community in which I'm so proud to be a part of, right?

00:52:49.791 --> 00:52:53.491
I carry so much pride as a Nigerian woman, as an Igbo woman,

00:52:53.751 --> 00:52:55.171
incredibly pride of my culture.

00:52:55.371 --> 00:53:01.391
And at the same time, the misogyny owing to the.

00:53:02.799 --> 00:53:07.359
Heartbreakingly patriarchal society that the, you know, West African,

00:53:07.619 --> 00:53:11.499
African, so many societies are, but specifically in the context of the Nigerian

00:53:11.499 --> 00:53:17.839
community, the misogyny is so breathtaking at points that it can be devastating.

00:53:18.039 --> 00:53:21.679
It was devastating for me. It continues to be devastating at point in times.

00:53:21.939 --> 00:53:28.879
However, you know, back in the Canadian context, looking at the fact that I

00:53:28.879 --> 00:53:31.559
am immediately racialized as a Black individual.

00:53:31.839 --> 00:53:36.439
And so the racism for me within medical school, I would say at the foremost

00:53:36.439 --> 00:53:39.659
of that, was probably the most isolating element.

00:53:39.919 --> 00:53:46.259
Now, the twist to all of this is that I don't, rarely do I get to truly separate

00:53:46.259 --> 00:53:47.879
out these two things, right?

00:53:48.019 --> 00:53:54.659
The misogynoir of being a Black woman and the ways in which these two systems

00:53:54.659 --> 00:53:56.239
of oppression intersect.

00:53:56.759 --> 00:54:01.499
Compound, and make every different kind of interaction or can make every different

00:54:01.499 --> 00:54:03.599
kind of interaction uniquely challenging,

00:54:03.599 --> 00:54:10.059
such that I struggle at times to find solidarity within female spaces because

00:54:10.059 --> 00:54:14.219
they might not understand the racial component and the struggle at times within

00:54:14.219 --> 00:54:19.439
the Nigerian and Black community to find solidarity because then that interlacing

00:54:19.439 --> 00:54:21.919
of the misogyny makes it challenging.

00:54:21.919 --> 00:54:25.999
And so I would say that, you know, both of them are uniquely challenging,

00:54:25.999 --> 00:54:31.759
but experiencing the confluence of the two is a singular kind of pain associated with that.

00:54:32.839 --> 00:54:38.119
Now, your father wanted you to be proud and knowledgeable about your culture

00:54:38.119 --> 00:54:42.959
and history, but he did not want you to speak the language because it felt it

00:54:42.959 --> 00:54:46.519
would be an impediment to your assimilation in the Canadian society.

00:54:46.519 --> 00:54:53.059
So my question is, what are the positives and negatives in dealing with that dichotomy?

00:54:54.490 --> 00:54:56.770
Oh, so another brilliant question.

00:54:56.790 --> 00:55:00.270
And it's actually one that I've been thinking a lot about this week.

00:55:00.410 --> 00:55:05.650
And I've had quite a few readers of the book reach out to me and want to talk

00:55:05.650 --> 00:55:11.330
about that specific issue relating to my father's choice to not pass on our language.

00:55:11.510 --> 00:55:15.630
And now that I have children myself, and I reflect on this quite a lot,

00:55:15.850 --> 00:55:19.670
I am very much encouraging my parents to teach it to my children,

00:55:19.670 --> 00:55:22.490
because I want my children to know the language.

00:55:22.910 --> 00:55:27.110
And I see now, and I wrote about this in my book, Unlike the Rest,

00:55:27.390 --> 00:55:35.510
I see where it was coming from with respect to the protective drive from my parents' angle.

00:55:35.710 --> 00:55:38.770
You know, my parents came here, we have to understand the context that my parents

00:55:38.770 --> 00:55:44.270
came from Nigeria to Canada, specifically, they were in Montreal and Quebec

00:55:44.270 --> 00:55:47.470
for a long time before they came to Ontario.

00:55:47.770 --> 00:55:51.930
And being Nigerian immigrants with a very thick accent, even though my parents

00:55:51.930 --> 00:55:55.290
were educated, they have a very thick accent, in the environments where they

00:55:55.290 --> 00:56:02.630
were working in, in the 1980s, 1990s, where they were one of very few Black individuals,

00:56:03.010 --> 00:56:07.670
one of very few African individuals, that invariably.

00:56:08.410 --> 00:56:14.670
Colored the ways in which they were interacted with their colleagues, with their superiors.

00:56:14.710 --> 00:56:18.650
And I talk about this in the book, how my parents faced a significant amount

00:56:18.650 --> 00:56:23.490
of racism, discrimination, mischaracterization, simply based on the fact that

00:56:23.490 --> 00:56:25.590
not only were they Black, but they had the accent.

00:56:26.682 --> 00:56:31.722
And that people questioned their intelligence, they questioned their capacity,

00:56:32.062 --> 00:56:35.322
they questioned their skill set purely based on this.

00:56:35.422 --> 00:56:41.142
And so I knew that for my dad, he felt that that was a barrier to his full assimilation

00:56:41.142 --> 00:56:42.342
into the Canadian culture.

00:56:42.602 --> 00:56:47.282
And so for him, he wanted us to have not only the best English,

00:56:47.502 --> 00:56:51.242
he wanted us to be incredible wordsmiths, he wanted us to be strong writers,

00:56:51.302 --> 00:56:53.162
he really, really wanted that for us.

00:56:53.162 --> 00:56:57.562
But he also strongly felt that having an accent would, even if we were amazing

00:56:57.562 --> 00:56:59.762
writers, would get in the way of that.

00:56:59.962 --> 00:57:05.422
And unfortunately, I saw how that certain ways that came to be true.

00:57:05.842 --> 00:57:09.042
That the, you know, individuals who had accents, absolutely,

00:57:09.262 --> 00:57:11.702
they do face different kinds of discrimination in the workplace,

00:57:11.922 --> 00:57:13.542
professionally and personally.

00:57:14.122 --> 00:57:20.342
However, I do grieve significantly the loss of that language for my siblings

00:57:20.342 --> 00:57:21.522
and I for our generation.

00:57:21.742 --> 00:57:25.242
I know that there are other individuals within our community who we're very

00:57:25.242 --> 00:57:28.742
close to who are our age within our generation who are bilingual,

00:57:28.742 --> 00:57:31.762
and their parents taught them the language.

00:57:32.562 --> 00:57:36.202
You know, not that it would be an issue if they had an accent.

00:57:36.362 --> 00:57:40.102
I certainly don't see it as an issue, but they don't have the accent,

00:57:40.102 --> 00:57:42.062
and they still have the language.

00:57:42.062 --> 00:57:46.242
Language and that for me was like why couldn't you know why did it have to be

00:57:46.242 --> 00:57:53.582
so mutually exclusive right and so that's why I am now so adamant on my children

00:57:53.582 --> 00:57:56.762
learning the language and when they're old enough I'm going to send them to

00:57:56.762 --> 00:58:00.062
Igbo school I want them to be bilingual trilingual multilingual,

00:58:00.602 --> 00:58:04.842
because that's where culture lives culture lives within the language and so

00:58:04.842 --> 00:58:07.142
I want them to have that yeah yeah.

00:58:08.030 --> 00:58:13.610
You said in the book, although the experiences and historical context of black

00:58:13.610 --> 00:58:19.270
Canadians differ from those of black Americans, we are often connected in our

00:58:19.270 --> 00:58:22.090
experiences, experiences of being marginalized,

00:58:22.850 --> 00:58:26.510
subjugated and brutalized through systemic racism.

00:58:27.590 --> 00:58:33.090
In the U.S., there is a growing tension in the diaspora between African-Americans

00:58:33.090 --> 00:58:36.030
or black Americans and an African immigrant.

00:58:37.590 --> 00:58:44.250
I have said many times on this podcast, I say that that tension is detrimental toward progress.

00:58:44.830 --> 00:58:46.910
So I have two questions.

00:58:47.750 --> 00:58:51.650
Are there similar tensions within the diaspora in Canada?

00:58:51.950 --> 00:58:58.390
And two, do you agree with my assertion that is detrimental to have these divisions?

00:58:59.770 --> 00:59:03.790
So maybe I'll answer in the reverse. I want to say I absolutely do believe that

00:59:03.790 --> 00:59:06.850
it is detrimental, as you mentioned.

00:59:07.350 --> 00:59:11.890
I think when we look at the historical context, we can appreciate that due to

00:59:11.890 --> 00:59:16.690
the transatlantic slave trade or the trading of enslaved peoples,

00:59:16.890 --> 00:59:21.930
that built the Black population in the States.

00:59:21.930 --> 00:59:27.970
And then you have the immigration of Africans into the U.S.

00:59:28.190 --> 00:59:32.990
That have a very different path of getting there, have a very different history,

00:59:33.450 --> 00:59:39.790
right? And so we can appreciate that at least the lines are different.

00:59:39.930 --> 00:59:47.210
But then when I look at the actual people themselves, the fact that most of

00:59:47.210 --> 00:59:52.510
us originate from the same areas within Africa, right?

00:59:52.510 --> 00:59:56.230
A lot of individuals who've done the 23andMe, who have done the DNA analysis,

00:59:56.470 --> 01:00:02.090
they can tie back, oh, I'm 43% Nigerian, I'm 50% Ghanian, or whatever it is.

01:00:02.210 --> 01:00:05.330
And very similar also for individuals who are in the Caribbean.

01:00:05.470 --> 01:00:08.550
A lot of them can trace it back somewhere or another. Of course,

01:00:08.630 --> 01:00:12.350
there's racial admixture because of the brutal disease.

01:00:12.919 --> 01:00:18.499
System of slavery and, of course, what had happened with regard to sexual assault baked in there.

01:00:18.579 --> 01:00:22.419
And so we can appreciate that, of course, not 100% of their genetics can be

01:00:22.419 --> 01:00:24.559
tied back there, but a lot of it can.

01:00:24.719 --> 01:00:30.659
And I think that that does get in the way of the progress because when we start

01:00:30.659 --> 01:00:34.719
to draw these different lines, it becomes this, you know,

01:00:35.239 --> 01:00:40.739
you are not like us and we cannot be one. There cannot ever be true unity.

01:00:41.179 --> 01:00:45.719
And I think that when that divide is there, which I believe is another way in

01:00:45.719 --> 01:00:52.059
which white supremacy is able to persist, then that is how as communities we can't come together.

01:00:52.239 --> 01:00:57.279
We can't forge, you know, take care of one another the way that I believe other

01:00:57.279 --> 01:01:00.099
communities might have a better capacity to do so.

01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:05.999
But again, I don't necessarily think that that is entirely the fault of Black

01:01:05.999 --> 01:01:08.099
individuals and African individuals.

01:01:08.299 --> 01:01:12.319
Again, I think that, again, this is a consequence of white supremacy.

01:01:12.319 --> 01:01:14.699
This is a consequence of colonialism.

01:01:14.919 --> 01:01:21.199
And there are other powers that be that absolutely benefit from these lines continuing to be drawn.

01:01:21.359 --> 01:01:28.059
So that's my thought on the frictions that can be present there.

01:01:28.219 --> 01:01:32.819
And then to your first question, which I'm now slightly forgetting.

01:01:33.099 --> 01:01:35.379
Which I'm sorry, would you mind reminding me what the first question?

01:01:35.379 --> 01:01:40.439
Are you experiencing those kind of divisions in Canada? Right, right, right, right.

01:01:40.539 --> 01:01:45.219
So, again, the Canadian context is very different, because although there is

01:01:45.219 --> 01:01:50.639
absolutely a history of the slave trade within Canada as well,

01:01:50.819 --> 01:01:55.279
and there absolutely is a population, especially within Nova Scotia,

01:01:55.359 --> 01:02:00.979
there are Black Nova Scotians who have direct ties back to the slave trade.

01:02:00.979 --> 01:02:05.439
It's very different because a large proportion of the Black community,

01:02:05.639 --> 01:02:06.819
at least within Ontario.

01:02:07.079 --> 01:02:11.719
Within Toronto, where there are the highest numbers of Black individuals across

01:02:11.719 --> 01:02:16.799
the country, we are more so the result of immigration.

01:02:16.799 --> 01:02:22.079
So many of us are first, second, third generation Canadians because our parents

01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:27.279
came here from different parts of Africa or the Caribbean or something of that nature.

01:02:27.459 --> 01:02:33.259
And so that's what makes it up. Now, the process of racialization exists such

01:02:33.259 --> 01:02:36.379
that irrespective of where you come from, whether you're a Ghanian,

01:02:36.619 --> 01:02:40.079
whether you're Jamaican, whether you're a Nigerian, when you arrive here,

01:02:40.259 --> 01:02:46.479
you are racialized such that the way in which the system treats you is as a Black individual.

01:02:46.479 --> 01:02:51.259
The way in which racism works is that you are now Black, irrespective of where you come from.

01:02:51.379 --> 01:02:57.279
And so, that, I would say, is one of the primary differences between that.

01:02:57.279 --> 01:03:03.099
And so we don't necessarily see this huge divide between Black Canadians slash

01:03:03.099 --> 01:03:08.659
African Canadians for us in this context. I believe that it's more so we're

01:03:08.659 --> 01:03:11.119
all racialized in a very similar way.

01:03:12.190 --> 01:03:15.810
Yeah. Now I did the ancestry thing.

01:03:16.110 --> 01:03:20.350
So supposedly I'm 36% Nigerian.

01:03:20.530 --> 01:03:24.710
And that might explain why most of the Nigerian students when I was in college

01:03:24.710 --> 01:03:27.750
were cool with me and folks from other parts of Africa were not,

01:03:27.870 --> 01:03:30.250
but that's a whole nother discussion for another day.

01:03:30.730 --> 01:03:34.550
Yes, yes, yes. But, but there was one thing I thought about,

01:03:34.550 --> 01:03:37.330
it was a part of the book where you were talking about when

01:03:37.330 --> 01:03:40.810
you you shaved your head and i

01:03:40.810 --> 01:03:47.230
thought about that because you know there's other you know my dna shows bantu

01:03:47.230 --> 01:03:52.670
and and and some other stuff and so one of the things i thought about was when

01:03:52.670 --> 01:03:57.450
when the slaves came over they deliberately cut hair so that people wouldn't

01:03:57.450 --> 01:03:59.690
identify from what group they were from.

01:04:01.070 --> 01:04:06.730
And, and, and so that explains why there is, you know,

01:04:06.950 --> 01:04:11.530
other African cultures within my DNA, because they, you know,

01:04:11.630 --> 01:04:16.930
it wasn't just intermixing with Europeans, it was intermixing within our,

01:04:17.130 --> 01:04:22.690
you know, our own diaspora, because people couldn't identify with, you know,

01:04:22.870 --> 01:04:28.070
they originally were i mean they knew interesting but but they better interacted

01:04:28.070 --> 01:04:33.670
and and the way you tell your story about cutting hair was more of a liberation story as opposed to,

01:04:34.710 --> 01:04:39.310
how they did it here with the oppressive piece so it just that kind of that

01:04:39.310 --> 01:04:45.970
just kind of flashed in my mind while you were talking but i grew up in a generation

01:04:45.970 --> 01:04:50.130
where pan-africanism was encouraged,

01:04:50.830 --> 01:04:56.350
and that was kind of the drive you know i was the you know when hip-hop was

01:04:56.350 --> 01:05:00.010
first starting and you know and then we had these groups out here like public

01:05:00.010 --> 01:05:05.630
enemy and you know and it was like fight the power and we got the fist raised

01:05:05.630 --> 01:05:10.630
back like my my i guess my parents did back in the 60s and 70s,

01:05:11.730 --> 01:05:18.130
and you know so it was important but now the politics and it really kind of

01:05:18.130 --> 01:05:22.370
showed his ugly had this political season here, you know, because the issue

01:05:22.370 --> 01:05:23.830
of reparations kicked in.

01:05:25.530 --> 01:05:31.970
And, you know, and then the other thing about Canada was that the first black

01:05:31.970 --> 01:05:34.610
Canadian I'd ever heard of was Ferguson Jenkins.

01:05:34.930 --> 01:05:39.410
Now, I don't know if you've heard that name or not, but Fergie Jenkins was a

01:05:39.410 --> 01:05:40.770
pitcher for the Chicago Cubs.

01:05:40.850 --> 01:05:43.970
I grew up in Chicago and he was one of the best pitchers we had.

01:05:44.110 --> 01:05:46.470
And then when you look on the baseball card, it said Hamilton,

01:05:46.750 --> 01:05:48.230
Ontario, Canada. I was like, what?

01:05:49.036 --> 01:05:51.916
Even know that that's where he was born we was like hey really black

01:05:51.916 --> 01:05:55.816
folks but as you study the history you realize well

01:05:55.816 --> 01:05:58.516
yeah that's where that was the ultimate place to get

01:05:58.516 --> 01:06:01.536
away it was one thing to get across the mason dixon

01:06:01.536 --> 01:06:04.576
line and go over that that the ohio river or wherever

01:06:04.576 --> 01:06:07.416
to get into freedom but if you

01:06:07.416 --> 01:06:10.196
really wanted to be free you went across one

01:06:10.196 --> 01:06:13.216
of them great lakes and you got to canada and so

01:06:13.216 --> 01:06:16.976
i know a lot of a lot of slaves became

01:06:16.976 --> 01:06:20.656
free when they got to Canada primarily Ontario

01:06:20.656 --> 01:06:27.676
so I know that there was there was a culture already of enslaved Americans that

01:06:27.676 --> 01:06:35.016
had re-established themselves as free communities in Ontario Canada so that's

01:06:35.016 --> 01:06:40.116
why I kind of wondered but of course the volume would not be the same but I just kind of wondered,

01:06:40.876 --> 01:06:48.596
was that kind of a discussion or kind of a sticking point with those folks who

01:06:48.596 --> 01:06:53.576
consider themselves Black Canadians because they came from slavery in the United

01:06:53.576 --> 01:06:55.736
States as opposed to immigrants.

01:06:56.236 --> 01:06:58.496
But obviously you weren't catching that vibe.

01:06:59.436 --> 01:07:03.516
Certainly not in the communities that I've grown up in. I mean,

01:07:03.736 --> 01:07:08.996
you know, I have met Black Nova Scotians who do identify with that particular

01:07:08.996 --> 01:07:11.456
history, with that particular identity.

01:07:11.956 --> 01:07:16.776
But even then, with the Black Nova Scotians who I have met, it was never,

01:07:17.136 --> 01:07:19.296
there was never that particular divide.

01:07:19.436 --> 01:07:23.856
That was never felt. It was always, you know, we are Black Canadians,

01:07:23.856 --> 01:07:28.356
and they have their specific, you know, relationship to the Black Nova Scotian

01:07:28.356 --> 01:07:32.176
community, which does tie back to the Black American enslaved communities.

01:07:32.176 --> 01:07:38.456
And so, yeah, I haven't particularly, again, of course, this isn't N of one.

01:07:38.576 --> 01:07:44.076
This is an anecdote of my specific experiences. And so I don't want to speak

01:07:44.076 --> 01:07:47.296
sweepingly over everyone's experiences as Black Canadians.

01:07:47.556 --> 01:07:51.936
But that is what I have observed. And I have a significant amount of family.

01:07:52.136 --> 01:07:55.896
Actually, most of my family is in the States. And so I go back to the States

01:07:55.896 --> 01:07:58.056
quite often to visit my family.

01:07:58.276 --> 01:08:04.156
And I know that their experience as Nigerian Americans, even my,

01:08:04.316 --> 01:08:08.076
you know, all of my cousins were born or they have lived most of their lives

01:08:08.076 --> 01:08:10.636
in the States or they were born in the States.

01:08:10.636 --> 01:08:15.736
And so I know that these discussions are discussions that they have much more

01:08:15.736 --> 01:08:21.116
passionately amongst the groups with Black Americans and Nigerian Americans

01:08:21.116 --> 01:08:22.596
or other African Americans.

01:08:22.836 --> 01:08:27.116
Like that's very, that's a very different conversation in the States for sure.

01:08:28.259 --> 01:08:33.739
And the Black Nova Scotians, for you and the listeners, have a very special

01:08:33.739 --> 01:08:36.719
place in my heart because they're the ones who invented hockey,

01:08:36.739 --> 01:08:41.619
just so everybody knows. And I love hockey. I didn't know that. Yeah.

01:08:41.879 --> 01:08:45.299
They invented hockey. I have no idea. Yeah.

01:08:45.499 --> 01:08:49.579
Now, you know, you got to really dig because it's like, you know,

01:08:49.659 --> 01:08:55.039
when you really dig into history, you'll find out how significant black, you know,

01:08:55.459 --> 01:09:01.299
black people, African people were on this side of the world, on this continent.

01:09:01.719 --> 01:09:06.379
And just a little nuance and all that. But yeah, it came out,

01:09:06.519 --> 01:09:12.859
I guess, maybe last year that they could trace the origin of hockey because

01:09:12.859 --> 01:09:14.199
Canada is like, that's our sport.

01:09:14.199 --> 01:09:17.959
And say, yeah, but it was a black, it was black folks. It was black folks in

01:09:17.959 --> 01:09:19.099
Nova Scotia that did that.

01:09:19.379 --> 01:09:22.199
So just wanted to give a shout out to them. Wow.

01:09:23.499 --> 01:09:28.139
Thank you for that. Oh, you're welcome. So let's, let's try to close this out

01:09:28.139 --> 01:09:36.059
by what I usually ask people when they write a book, what do you want readers to get out of the book?

01:09:37.699 --> 01:09:44.479
What I want the readers to know is that this is a tale of one,

01:09:44.939 --> 01:09:48.419
but it is a story. It is a book for all.

01:09:49.079 --> 01:09:53.579
And so what I mean by that is that, of course, when you look at the book,

01:09:53.739 --> 01:09:56.799
when you pick up the book, when you look at the book, when you read the backflap

01:09:56.799 --> 01:10:01.159
of the book and you understand that it is my memoir, it's my journey of going

01:10:01.159 --> 01:10:02.959
through medicine as a Black woman,

01:10:03.219 --> 01:10:06.539
as the formative years of my medical training,

01:10:07.399 --> 01:10:13.179
someone might think, well, this is a very niche, a very specific anecdotal experience,

01:10:13.819 --> 01:10:17.779
that only maybe Black women can understand or only doctors can understand.

01:10:17.959 --> 01:10:22.759
But what I want people to really appreciate is that this book is more so about

01:10:22.759 --> 01:10:28.179
what binds us in our humanity as opposed to what divides us. And.

01:10:29.160 --> 01:10:36.000
One of the most existential things to us as human beings is our drive for belonging,

01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:38.940
is our wanting to belong.

01:10:39.380 --> 01:10:45.600
And if we look at what is actually the most strongly understood predictor of

01:10:45.600 --> 01:10:50.080
longevity, it is our social connection above our physical health,

01:10:50.200 --> 01:10:53.520
above our mental health. It's our social connection.

01:10:54.360 --> 01:10:58.860
And that in and of itself is our ability to belong, our ability to remain connected to one another.

01:10:59.160 --> 01:11:03.980
And so that is truly what this story is about. It's about the power of belonging.

01:11:04.220 --> 01:11:08.560
It's about the power of connection. It's about the importance of holding onto

01:11:08.560 --> 01:11:10.400
our humanity in the face of adversity.

01:11:11.020 --> 01:11:16.260
And above all of that, it is also important to recognize that the story,

01:11:16.480 --> 01:11:21.720
that my book, what the readers will glean from it, is the importance of recognizing

01:11:21.720 --> 01:11:24.360
that not only do you belong, but that you have a voice.

01:11:24.360 --> 01:11:30.700
And this voice is powerful never to allow anyone to take this voice from you

01:11:30.700 --> 01:11:33.420
and to always be the author of your life,

01:11:33.480 --> 01:11:39.740
to never allow anyone to take the pen from your hand, that you get to determine what your power is,

01:11:39.920 --> 01:11:43.060
where it is that you belong, the spaces that you want to enter,

01:11:43.180 --> 01:11:46.880
and how it is that you show up authentically and unapologetically.

01:11:47.100 --> 01:11:49.780
And that's what I hope the readers will take home from this book.

01:11:49.780 --> 01:11:55.780
So in the same vein, what do you hope happens when a young girl from the African

01:11:55.780 --> 01:11:58.880
diaspora, whether it's in the United States, in Canada, wherever.

01:11:59.720 --> 01:12:03.280
Sees that Barbie doll that was inspired by you?

01:12:03.300 --> 01:12:09.580
What will you hope that those young girls will envision or dream?

01:12:11.040 --> 01:12:18.240
I hope that when they look at that Barbie doll, they don't just see a beautiful

01:12:18.240 --> 01:12:22.340
black Barbie dressed as a doctor who is a doctor with a stethoscope and the

01:12:22.340 --> 01:12:23.420
scrubs and the white coat.

01:12:23.640 --> 01:12:31.440
I want them to see the absolutely boundless potential within themselves.

01:12:32.160 --> 01:12:37.980
I want them to know that not only can they be anything, they can do anything,

01:12:37.980 --> 01:12:41.720
and they are in the driver's seat of their own excellence.

01:12:41.980 --> 01:12:47.800
And so, you know, as another James Baldwin quote that I put into my book,

01:12:47.960 --> 01:12:51.660
you know, your crown is already bought and paid for. All you have to do is put it on.

01:12:52.360 --> 01:12:55.560
That is what I want them to see when they see that Barbie,

01:12:55.800 --> 01:12:59.680
that this road has all, we've already started to pave it and it is incumbent

01:12:59.680 --> 01:13:04.540
upon you to continue on that journey and you have every single faculty within

01:13:04.540 --> 01:13:09.260
you to do that and so that's what i hope little black girls see little girls

01:13:09.260 --> 01:13:12.740
from the diaspora i hope that that's what they see when when they look at my barbie doll,

01:13:13.500 --> 01:13:18.540
all right doctor so how can people get in touch with you how can people get

01:13:18.540 --> 01:13:20.760
the book all that good stuff.

01:13:22.012 --> 01:13:28.932
So to get in touch with me, I can be found across most social platforms at Dr. Dr.

01:13:29.572 --> 01:13:36.912
Chika, C-H-I-K-A, Oriwa, O-R-I-U-W-A. That will be on Instagram.

01:13:37.032 --> 01:13:39.932
My LinkedIn is Dr. Chika Stacey Oriwa.

01:13:40.092 --> 01:13:42.832
My X is at Dr. Chika Oriwa.

01:13:43.032 --> 01:13:48.392
And my TikTok is also at Dr. Chika Oriwa. And with respect to where the book can be found.

01:13:48.552 --> 01:13:53.632
It can be found anywhere the books are sold and also at your favorite online retailer.

01:13:54.532 --> 01:14:02.592
All right. Well, Dr. Chika Stacey or Rewa, I am honored that you took the time

01:14:02.592 --> 01:14:07.412
to come on the podcast. I think you have an incredible story that a lot of people can relate to.

01:14:09.052 --> 01:14:14.672
And, you know, I'm glad that you are the living embodiment now because I know

01:14:14.672 --> 01:14:21.952
in the book you You talk about how it was hard to find somebody to identify

01:14:21.952 --> 01:14:23.972
as a role model that was real.

01:14:24.092 --> 01:14:27.352
It was like you relied on fiction and all that.

01:14:27.512 --> 01:14:32.532
So I am glad that young women now, especially women of African descent,

01:14:32.832 --> 01:14:36.652
that they have a real person that they can look at.

01:14:36.972 --> 01:14:43.952
And I'm glad that you had the courage and the talent to put it down in a book form.

01:14:44.452 --> 01:14:50.712
So, again, thank you for coming on the podcast. And understand that now that

01:14:50.712 --> 01:14:55.192
you have been a guest, you have an open invitation to come back anytime you want to.

01:14:55.272 --> 01:14:58.932
If something, you know, you've got a fire burning in your chest and you just

01:14:58.932 --> 01:15:01.032
got to say something, just let me know and we'll get you on.

01:15:01.912 --> 01:15:06.412
Amazing. Thank you. This has been an absolutely brilliant and impactful conversation

01:15:06.412 --> 01:15:09.652
with incredible questions. So thank you so much for having me.

01:15:10.232 --> 01:15:12.512
All right. You're going to make me blush before I get out of here.

01:15:12.632 --> 01:15:15.432
All right, guys. We'll catch y'all on the other side.

01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:28.720
Music.

01:15:28.566 --> 01:15:34.686
We are back. So I want to thank Tammy McCall Browning and Dr.

01:15:35.266 --> 01:15:39.486
Chica Stacey Oriowa for coming on the podcast.

01:15:39.746 --> 01:15:46.666
And, you know, I wish I was as brilliant as some people think I am,

01:15:46.766 --> 01:15:49.406
but just this worked out.

01:15:49.566 --> 01:15:52.546
You know, I had Dr. Oriowa coming on because of her book.

01:15:53.366 --> 01:16:00.126
And, you know, The intriguing part was somebody being of Nigerian heritage in

01:16:00.126 --> 01:16:10.426
Canada and her navigating through that in pursuit of being a doctor and all

01:16:10.426 --> 01:16:12.146
those things that that encompasses.

01:16:12.986 --> 01:16:20.126
But I didn't realize that her profession or specialty was psychiatry.

01:16:20.126 --> 01:16:28.166
So to have her and Miss Tammy on, who is an incredible spokesperson dealing

01:16:28.166 --> 01:16:34.146
with issues with mental illness, I couldn't have planned it any better than that.

01:16:34.206 --> 01:16:36.826
So I am grateful that both of those ladies came on.

01:16:36.966 --> 01:16:43.026
And I promised y'all, I promised you all that this was going to be a good show.

01:16:43.226 --> 01:16:47.706
And I hope that you agreed with that, that you got something out of those conversations.

01:16:49.546 --> 01:16:51.226
And we're going to try to,

01:16:52.819 --> 01:16:57.279
going to try to get some other appearances with them to come back.

01:16:57.479 --> 01:17:01.739
And I've been working behind the scenes to get some people that have been on

01:17:01.739 --> 01:17:03.699
the podcast before to come back on.

01:17:04.099 --> 01:17:06.039
And so far, that is working.

01:17:08.139 --> 01:17:13.579
So this is kind of shaping, 2025 is shaping up to be a really,

01:17:13.699 --> 01:17:20.239
really good year, inspired the fact of what's going to happen on January 20th.

01:17:21.419 --> 01:17:25.799
And we just, you know what? We just go and deal with that. Right.

01:17:25.959 --> 01:17:28.519
We just go and deal with it when it when it comes forward.

01:17:29.119 --> 01:17:33.899
We're watching the sideshow that's taking place. We're watching all of the mayhem

01:17:33.899 --> 01:17:37.259
and political courage or lack thereof.

01:17:37.879 --> 01:17:43.939
In dealing with all these nominees and watching the machinations of the media

01:17:43.939 --> 01:17:51.199
and how they're trying to reinvent themselves, I guess, so they won't get persecuted or canceled.

01:17:51.719 --> 01:17:54.279
Well, it depends on which group they fear, right?

01:17:56.039 --> 01:18:00.039
But there was one thing I wanted to do before I got off the air today,

01:18:00.059 --> 01:18:03.019
and that was to apologize to the family of Jordan Neely.

01:18:03.759 --> 01:18:07.459
Even though I wasn't on the jury, I don't live in New York City.

01:18:08.319 --> 01:18:13.439
As a black person, I want to apologize to them because I was hoping that they

01:18:13.439 --> 01:18:16.479
would be on the winning side this go around.

01:18:17.259 --> 01:18:21.639
I don't have anything personal against Daniel Penny.

01:18:22.379 --> 01:18:29.499
He did serve his country, and I think that played a major role in why he was acquitted.

01:18:31.119 --> 01:18:37.679
But, you know, I don't I don't know if living with that in your conscience is

01:18:37.679 --> 01:18:39.159
enough punishment for him.

01:18:39.899 --> 01:18:41.779
And, you know, there were some people.

01:18:43.359 --> 01:18:51.619
John McCain's daughter got on and was like, you know, basically gleeful and

01:18:51.619 --> 01:18:56.699
was trying to say, well, you know, you know, he shouldn't have been tried in the first place.

01:18:56.699 --> 01:19:01.479
And it was like, I responded, he literally killed another human being.

01:19:02.279 --> 01:19:07.379
Now, if he was in service to his country and he was off to war,

01:19:07.879 --> 01:19:10.619
you know, in combat, okay.

01:19:11.379 --> 01:19:17.819
You know, I just felt that he should have some kind of accountability for not

01:19:17.819 --> 01:19:20.339
having self-restraint.

01:19:20.339 --> 01:19:27.899
It's one thing okay to deal with somebody that you feel might be threatening

01:19:27.899 --> 01:19:33.519
other people okay you intervened you stepped in okay,

01:19:34.418 --> 01:19:39.818
Even if you felt he was getting ready to do something physical, you held him back.

01:19:40.598 --> 01:19:44.018
But at some point in time, it should have kicked in. And I don't know if it

01:19:44.018 --> 01:19:47.518
was adrenaline or whatever, but you should have let him go. Right.

01:19:48.418 --> 01:19:50.098
You didn't need to choke him out.

01:19:51.018 --> 01:19:58.418
He wasn't he had not done anything to justify being choked out and you killing him that way.

01:19:59.198 --> 01:20:02.458
And there's other people that always say, well, he might have been on drugs

01:20:02.458 --> 01:20:03.978
or whatever. It doesn't matter.

01:20:05.338 --> 01:20:13.358
Because even if he was, the action of Daniel Penny triggered it to be fatal, right?

01:20:14.458 --> 01:20:19.498
Because other than him maybe having a bad experience, maybe him ranting and

01:20:19.498 --> 01:20:25.218
raving and all that, maybe that was all the drugs was going to affect him if he was on drugs, right?

01:20:25.738 --> 01:20:31.898
But again, the whole issue of this show is how we stigmatize mental illness.

01:20:32.878 --> 01:20:37.538
Brother Neely was out in the street primarily because of mental illness.

01:20:38.218 --> 01:20:41.658
Whether he couldn't afford the medication, whether he refused to take it,

01:20:41.858 --> 01:20:44.098
whatever his circumstance was.

01:20:44.278 --> 01:20:49.758
And I'm hoping to get somebody connected with him to come on the podcast.

01:20:49.758 --> 01:20:56.478
But he didn't deserve to die in that subway train, no matter how he was acting.

01:20:56.478 --> 01:21:02.378
And as somebody that has ridden public transportation in multiple cities in

01:21:02.378 --> 01:21:09.378
my life, you're going to have people acting erratic, right?

01:21:10.178 --> 01:21:14.898
Because public transportation is relatively inexpensive.

01:21:15.878 --> 01:21:21.918
So, you know, they can't afford a car and they can only walk so far.

01:21:22.598 --> 01:21:26.178
They can scrape up a couple of dollars to get on a bus or get on a train.

01:21:26.858 --> 01:21:28.458
Homeless people are going to do that.

01:21:29.318 --> 01:21:33.958
And a lot of people that are dealing with homelessness are dealing with mental illness.

01:21:34.738 --> 01:21:39.758
And other health factors as well. Because they're exposed to stuff.

01:21:40.038 --> 01:21:45.238
Because they don't have adequate shelter. They don't have adequate nutrition. Right? Right.

01:21:46.258 --> 01:21:55.658
So, you know, I, you know, to Daniel Penny's legal team, you did your job,

01:21:55.938 --> 01:21:58.318
you defended your client. He was acquitted.

01:21:58.938 --> 01:22:02.618
I'm not mad at y'all for that. That's what the Constitution says.

01:22:02.618 --> 01:22:04.298
He's supposed to have a fair trial.

01:22:04.438 --> 01:22:07.038
If he desires to have one, he got one.

01:22:07.938 --> 01:22:13.578
But I just I just wish that the jury had felt compelled enough.

01:22:14.498 --> 01:22:18.978
And maybe they didn't have enough options. You know, they didn't want to deal

01:22:18.978 --> 01:22:21.098
with they don't want to hit them with manslaughter.

01:22:21.718 --> 01:22:27.078
And maybe they felt criminally negligent. Homicide was too harsh.

01:22:28.018 --> 01:22:30.678
Maybe they should have been given another option. I don't know.

01:22:32.006 --> 01:22:35.926
I know is that he killed a human being that needed help.

01:22:36.466 --> 01:22:41.766
He didn't need to die. He needed help. If you held him until the authorities

01:22:41.766 --> 01:22:49.566
came and he got the help that he needed, then the hero status would apply.

01:22:50.066 --> 01:22:53.466
But, you know, Batman is a fictional character.

01:22:54.086 --> 01:23:00.026
We don't need real life Batman. We don't need real life vigilantes. We don't need it.

01:23:01.926 --> 01:23:08.966
Because unlike in the comic book, real-life vigilantes have real-life consequences

01:23:08.966 --> 01:23:14.346
that are devastating to communities, and especially to the family members of

01:23:14.346 --> 01:23:15.646
those people that they kill.

01:23:16.186 --> 01:23:19.946
And I know the politically correct thing, say, is unalive and stuff.

01:23:20.966 --> 01:23:22.626
He killed that man.

01:23:25.086 --> 01:23:29.226
And I guess he'll deal with that in the afterlife or whatever,

01:23:29.226 --> 01:23:33.566
but he should have had to atone for it while he was here.

01:23:33.986 --> 01:23:38.006
So I apologize to the Neely family that, that Mr.

01:23:38.166 --> 01:23:45.446
Penny will not face any atonement from the legal system for what he did to Jordan.

01:23:45.706 --> 01:23:52.806
But because there were other people that were highlighted in my podcast, um,

01:23:53.980 --> 01:23:59.660
I died that same week, and I believe in the other cases, all those people,

01:24:00.380 --> 01:24:05.580
all those victims, their attacker, their murderer and stuff,

01:24:06.260 --> 01:24:10.280
are seeking, are getting justice.

01:24:10.640 --> 01:24:14.760
They are going to atone for that.

01:24:17.280 --> 01:24:24.340
So it's very easy to make the statement based on the observation that black

01:24:24.340 --> 01:24:29.860
lives are still not as relevant as they should be, not as important as it should be.

01:24:30.980 --> 01:24:35.860
And you can even take it a step further with people with mental illness or people

01:24:35.860 --> 01:24:43.860
that are homeless that we don't respect them or don't give them the help or

01:24:43.860 --> 01:24:47.420
the support that they need. I think support's a better word.

01:24:48.200 --> 01:24:56.260
All I can really ask now that that trial is over and that jury verdict has been given.

01:24:56.260 --> 01:25:01.140
And I have to accept it just like any other verdict that's taken place,

01:25:01.140 --> 01:25:04.980
because that's how we maintain a system.

01:25:05.800 --> 01:25:09.300
But the overall challenge, I think, is that we just have to do better.

01:25:09.780 --> 01:25:15.960
We have to be more sensitive. We have to be more empathetic. We have to be more aware.

01:25:16.860 --> 01:25:24.720
And I think if we are that, then we become better jurors and even more importantly, better voters.

01:25:25.860 --> 01:25:33.000
Because we can't elect people who think that killing people is okay, right?

01:25:33.720 --> 01:25:39.240
You know, let's celebrate the death of a person who was very vulnerable.

01:25:40.560 --> 01:25:43.880
You know, any elected official that's glorifying that moment,

01:25:44.720 --> 01:25:49.900
I sincerely hope that you are no longer an elected official when the voters

01:25:49.900 --> 01:25:51.340
get to make that decision again.

01:25:53.971 --> 01:25:59.871
You know, we have to be better informed and more empathetic and more caring

01:25:59.871 --> 01:26:03.511
to make that wish of mine come true.

01:26:04.251 --> 01:26:09.191
We're all in this thing together and we all have our, we're all human.

01:26:09.211 --> 01:26:11.891
So we all have our comfort zones. I get all that.

01:26:12.451 --> 01:26:15.971
But we've got to embrace each other.

01:26:16.551 --> 01:26:21.311
And not necessarily physically, but at least from the heart.

01:26:22.151 --> 01:26:28.711
And I think if we are going to be a society that really is going to be an example

01:26:28.711 --> 01:26:34.431
for the world, then we really have to tap into that empathy.

01:26:34.431 --> 01:26:39.671
We really have to have to commit to being knowledgeable. Right.

01:26:40.971 --> 01:26:47.151
Anyway, I just I just felt that I needed to say that, especially in light of

01:26:47.151 --> 01:26:50.351
the episode. We this great episode we just had.

01:26:50.611 --> 01:26:54.811
And, you know, just just my experience from a political standpoint,

01:26:55.091 --> 01:26:59.411
from a law enforcement standpoint, we just we just got to do better, y'all.

01:27:00.571 --> 01:27:06.011
The holidays are right around the corner or we're in holiday season, I guess.

01:27:06.371 --> 01:27:08.791
Now that Thanksgiving has passed and Christmas is coming.

01:27:09.651 --> 01:27:12.871
And this is a time where people are dealing with stuff.

01:27:13.471 --> 01:27:20.771
It's more than, you know, for some people, this is a tough part of the year.

01:27:22.131 --> 01:27:25.771
So I just want people to be sensitive about that. Go on about your lives.

01:27:26.051 --> 01:27:30.911
Enjoy your victories. Enjoy your gifts. Enjoy your friendships and all that.

01:27:31.011 --> 01:27:36.651
But just understand that not everybody is going to be as fortunate and that

01:27:36.651 --> 01:27:43.251
we need to have a place in our heart to understand that. All right.

01:27:44.411 --> 01:27:47.011
Thank y'all for listening. Until next time.

01:27:49.200 --> 01:28:35.124
Music.