I Have Hope Featuring Dr. Marlee Bunch and Dr. Patrice Fenton

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Hello, and welcome to another Moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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And as you are listening to this, I hope that you had a Merry Christmas.

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We are in the Kwanzaa season now, and getting ready to get rid of 2025 and get into 2026.

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Hallelujah, praise the Lord. It's time for a new year.

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It really is. I don't know about you, but at one point, it seemed like the year

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was going fast, and then it just started dragging and dragging.

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I don't know if it was the burden of all this foolishness we got going on in

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Washington and some of the states or whatever it was.

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But if you are listening to this, you then made it to the homestretch,

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and we're about ready to get into a brand new year.

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And I hope that 2026 is prosperous and joyful for you as well as your family and everyone else.

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This is going to be the last show for the year.

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I'm going to take a break. Grace has already started her break,

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so we won't have the news segment this episode. We're just going to go straight into the guests.

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And you're going to enjoy these two sisters. Excuse me, they're both educators.

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And one has written these incredible books that correlate Mississippi's civil

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rights history with education and how to apply those lessons in today's education system.

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And then we got another sister who is following in the legacy of one of our

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great civil rights icons and in the field of education, trying to lift up our youth.

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So I hope that you enjoy these episodes. So these interviews,

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as you say, and enjoy this episode.

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Still looking for subscribers. So you can go to patreon.com slash a moment with

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Erik Fleming, or you can go to momenterik.com.

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And if you go to the podcast website, momenterik.com, then you can,

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you know, not only subscribe,

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but you can also contact us if you want to be a guest,

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you know, if you've got something, you know, you want to talk about,

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we'll, you know, See if we can get you on and just understand I'm booked through June.

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Praise the Lord. So, you know, if that tickles your fancy, if that's what you

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want to do, if you want to learn something about me and all this stuff,

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you just go to momenteric.com and you can handle all of that stuff.

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So, again, I just greatly appreciate y'all for listening. So let's go ahead and get this started.

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My first guest is Dr.

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Marlee Bunch. Dr. Marlee S.

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Bunch is an interdisciplinary educator, scholar,

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author, and preserver of oral histories dedicated to illuminating untold stories

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and fostering human-centered, inclusive learning spaces.

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With over a decade of teaching experience across secondary and post-secondary

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classrooms, she has consistently championed equitable, rigorous,

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and reflective education that honors the lived experiences of students and educators alike.

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A passionate advocate for justice-centered education, Dr.

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Bunch earned her doctoral degree in education, policy, organization,

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and leadership with an emphasis on diversity and equity from the University of Illinois.

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She also holds a Master's of Education and Secondary Education from DePaul University,

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an MS degree in gifted education,

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and an ESL certification, a testament to her commitment to meeting the diverse needs of learners.

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She is a National Academy of Education Spencer Doctoral Fellow.

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At the heart of Dr. Bunch's work is the belief that history and storytelling

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hold transformative power.

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Her research centers on the oral histories of Black female educators in Mississippi

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who taught during the Civil Rights era, 1954 to 1971.

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Preserving their narratives is both historical record and source of contemporary wisdom.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Dr. Marlee Bunch.

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All right. Dr. Marlee Bunch, happy holidays to you. How are you doing?

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I'm doing well. Happy holidays to you. It's great to be here with you.

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Well, it's an honor to have you on.

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You caught my attention, and I'll get into that during the interview,

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but I wanted to talk to you about your work in education.

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But, of course, it's a political show, so we got to tie in politics some kind

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of way. but I normally start out the interview with a couple of icebreakers.

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So the first icebreaker is a quote. And the quote is, let us not forget,

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ever forget such things.

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Yeah. What does that quote mean to you?

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Oh, I read that quote. It has been probably a good 15 years since I first encountered

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us from Carole Maso's Ava.

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And it's interesting because I think that quote

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has carried through my work has been such a thread

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that's that runs let us not forget our

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history the people who have shaped

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us I think of my grandmother when I hear that quote yeah I just think it's beautiful

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I think it reminds us of all of the deep legacies that run throughout our history

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and lives all right so now the next size breaker is what I call 20 questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

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Ooh, eight. Okay. What is one thing you hope the current administration will

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do or not do during their term?

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I hope that we can restore the damage that has occurred around the removal of history and stories.

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I'm thinking specifically about our museums and make sure that all history is

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protected and that we represent true history for our current and future generations.

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So you're hoping that they fix what they broke is what you're saying?

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Yes, I'm hoping they restore some of that damage that has occurred. Yes, ma'am.

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What was it about Mississippi between 1954 and 1971 that inspired you to write

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two books based upon that period?

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Yeah. Well, my grandmother taught in Hattiesburg, Mississippi for almost 40

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years, and she passed away, you know, before I was born. So I didn't know...

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That history, her history, and her teaching history. Of course,

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I've been in education now for, you know, for a long, long time.

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So I think that was kind of the first seed that was planted.

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And then the other piece is my mentor, Dr. Christopher Spann,

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happens to also study Mississippi.

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And he has often talked about how Mississippi really represents what the greater

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country is grappling with.

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So I think during that time, especially during the civil rights movement.

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Mississippi, I think, would be a place that most people would write off.

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You know, yes, it's got racial violence, it's poor, it's this, it's that.

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But out of Mississippi came these amazing movements that really helped shape

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the civil rights movement.

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And these, you know, what Dr. Joyce Ladner would call race women and race men

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who were just dedicated to making sure that things like the murder of Emmett Till,

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that inequitable voting rights, things of that nature stopped.

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And so I think Mississippi is just this beautiful place with,

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we know the kind of sad or darker history of Mississippi, but I love the both

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and about it in that out of Mississippi were these great educators and these folks who really,

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I think, helped shape pathways for me and for educators and people today.

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Yeah. Well, that was what got my attention. I was like, wow,

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she's really getting into it.

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And it was like, I know I've met one of the people that you talked to in the book.

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One of the Dahmer ladies. Yeah, Betty or Mrs.

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Ellie Dahmer. I wanted, I can't remember which, I might've met both of them

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because, you know, when I was, because I spent over half of my life in Mississippi

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and during, during, I was real active.

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That's where I get my political background from. I served in state legislature

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there and ran for the U.S.

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Senate there. So during my time running for the U.S.

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Senate, whenever I went to Hattiesburg, I had to go to the Dahmer Church.

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So I think I've met, I know I've met both of them.

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And then, so yeah, it was just, it was just, and I agree with you about the.

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Both and, as far as Mississippi goes. A lot of people have a lot of misconceptions

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about Mississippi, but I do tell Mississippi that what you see when you talk about,

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oh, what about Biloxi and, you know, the Gulf Coast? I said,

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that's our postcard, right?

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That's what we send out to say, come on in. But if you go north of I-10,

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it's like, now that's the real Mississippi.

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That's not to say that Biloxi is not real, but when you talk about the cotton and, you know,

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the sweet tea and football and all that stuff, the good and the bad, that's north of I-10.

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And a lot of people that, you know, were engaged in Mississippi politics were educators.

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My political mentor was Henry Kirksey. He worked for the black school district.

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He actually ran their printing press.

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And then he ended up drawing the maps that gave all those black folks opportunity

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to serve in the legislature. I can think of Ms. Pittman, Mr. Cooper.

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I just, you know, the young lady that beat me when I tried to go for a third

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term. Her dad was Campbell.

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They were. So a lot of Mississippi politics is tied into the educators.

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Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it was, it's just, it's fascinating.

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So that's why you caught my attention with that.

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Why is mentorship powerful?

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Oh, gosh. I had never, I've told this story a couple times, I have been a mentor

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to many, many of my students.

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And I'm so proud that I have been able to be part of their legacy and help shape

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their world in some small way.

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But I never had a mentor, if we're thinking about outside of family members, growing up in schools.

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And I think I always really, really wanted one. And so I met my mentor when

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I was working on my doctorate at the University of Illinois.

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And then I also, you know, started doing these oral history interviews and those

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many of those participants became mentors.

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And I think they just shape how we look at ourselves.

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I think even when we see good in ourselves, mentors hold up that mirror and

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help you see the best in yourself.

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And I think everybody needs that guidance.

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Even I think, you know, we kind of sometimes reduce it to like when you're growing up.

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No, I think we all need a mentor, someone to say, I can aspire to be this.

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And that mentor is there to kind of guide you, you know, as you're learning

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and growing, which is ongoing even through adulthood.

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So I think mentorship and, you know, I learned that through my interviews was

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such a formative piece of education during that time.

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You know, there weren't a lot of resources per se, but the resource that was

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so rich was the mentorship that came, as you mentioned, from educators,

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from community members.

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And I think that that's such an important piece of growing and learning,

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and especially when you're thinking about working towards changing social conditions

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and, you know, the global world.

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I think you need mentorship to help you navigate all of that.

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Now, you said you were a mentor. Did you...

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How did that work? Did students come to you or did you kind of pick out some

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students and say, let me guide you along the way?

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You know, I would say most of the students who needed me found me.

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And it was interesting because a lot of times it was the students that I think

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other teachers might have type casted as, oh, you know, you're the bad kid.

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You're the kid that blah, blah, blah. and those are my favorite kids and they

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always found me and I always I think did a good job at showing them.

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You are not necessarily what people see on paper.

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Because I think I had experienced that in school, right?

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On paper, I was one thing. But really, I was just looking for someone to kind

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of open that door and say, you know, do all of the things you're capable of doing.

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But yeah, I keep in touch with many of my students today. Some of them I've

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known for now over 15 years, and I'm so proud of them.

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I always say any leadership that I have, I credit to them.

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Because they were so important in my journey as a teacher and learning with them. Yeah.

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I had mentioned Henry Kirksey, so it was kind of the opposite.

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He kind of sought me out. It was like me and about three or four other individuals

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that he kind of took an interest in.

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And you know I'm very

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grateful he changed my life path changed a

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couple of times you know the traditional I was

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going to school to go to law school things didn't work out that's a whole 'nother

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podcast I could probably do multi-episode on that and then and then I was thinking

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about going into the Marine Corps and because he wanted to run for mayor he

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said I need you to be the campaign manager so that gave me my out,

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from going into the Marine Corps.

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I still probably would have ended up where I am politically,

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but it definitely changed the trajectory of where I got elected and how I got elected and all that.

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Just amazing. And when I ran, you know, I know you see when people campaign,

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they say, well, so-and-so endorsed this candidate and so-and-so did.

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I had two people endorse me. It was my pastor and Senator Kirksey.

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And I got in. So it was, it was pretty cool.

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Yeah. That trajectory part, I think you, you, you said it so well,

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that's that part, right?

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I mean, I think any of us who have had a great mentor, we can name the moment

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where it shifted our path or our trajectory.

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And, ah, I mean that people just don't forget it ever, right?

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Like that stays, That's like a lifelong gift.

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And so, yeah. That's exactly right.

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All right. So I want you to explain a couple of things. First,

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break down the Unhush framework.

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Yeah. Before I break it down, so the Unhushed Framework was born out of the

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oral history interviews that I did with Hattiesburg educators and also their students, right?

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I wanted to hear from the students who were actually in the classrooms of these women.

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And as a teacher, I wanted to kind of also figure out what were they doing in

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their pedagogy, in their curriculum,

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in their mobilizing of community that helped students walk out not only affirmed,

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but, you know, had academic rigor.

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And so I kind of, through my themes of my interviews,

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figured out the strands that were throughout and then came up with a framework

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to help teachers today who are trying to figure out how do I create culturally

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responsive classrooms.

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We know that most educators are white women, and so I wanted to figure out what

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can I create that serves as a guide to help any educator, really,

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who's trying to figure out a blueprint to creating these rich classroom experiences.

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So the Unhushed framework was born out of that.

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And the title Unhushed is really to remind us.

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And as one of my participants and I talked about this idea of being hushed and Dr.

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Joyce Ladner talked about how her generation, which she calls the Emmett Till

00:19:48.872 --> 00:19:52.112
generation, was never hushed because there wasn't an option.

00:19:52.292 --> 00:19:57.712
Right. It was a matter of hearing that clarion call and making sure that things

00:19:57.712 --> 00:19:59.772
like Emmett Till's murder never happened again.

00:19:59.972 --> 00:20:03.852
So there was fear, but there was never a, I'm going to be silent.

00:20:04.812 --> 00:20:08.712
And I thought that was really important. So that's what that word reminds us

00:20:08.712 --> 00:20:12.152
of, right, that we always have to use our voices and advocate for change.

00:20:12.532 --> 00:20:16.732
So the U stands for uniting for collective effort. As we know,

00:20:16.812 --> 00:20:20.252
that was so important in SNCC, in the March on Washington.

00:20:20.532 --> 00:20:25.172
All of things that happened throughout the movement in that era were done collectively.

00:20:25.892 --> 00:20:31.032
The N is being able to kind of name our positionality, understand our lens,

00:20:31.372 --> 00:20:37.792
what misinformation we come with, what bias, what experiences we walk into spaces with.

00:20:38.372 --> 00:20:44.212
The H is for understanding that histories are, all histories are valuable and

00:20:44.212 --> 00:20:47.772
especially making sure that we're illuminating underrepresented histories.

00:20:48.352 --> 00:20:52.652
That U piece is for unlearning. I think as educators and people,

00:20:52.652 --> 00:20:57.812
we have a job to make sure that we are always doing the work of unlearning and

00:20:57.812 --> 00:21:01.192
relearning through reflection, through education, whatever it may be.

00:21:01.632 --> 00:21:06.852
The S is for stories, because I think stories is really one of those things that can unite us.

00:21:06.912 --> 00:21:11.232
It's also what prevents erasure and helps make sure that future generations

00:21:11.232 --> 00:21:13.852
have this history and information.

00:21:13.852 --> 00:21:17.012
And so I think those components oh

00:21:17.012 --> 00:21:20.072
and the H is for healing because ultimately we all

00:21:20.072 --> 00:21:22.912
want to be working towards this idea of

00:21:22.912 --> 00:21:25.652
healing collectively and individually which we know

00:21:25.652 --> 00:21:30.672
is an ongoing process and so those principles if you're thinking about as a

00:21:30.672 --> 00:21:36.972
teacher for example bringing in a new text or designing a lesson plan for your

00:21:36.972 --> 00:21:43.552
classroom those components if they're present really kind of give you a marker to say, okay,

00:21:43.772 --> 00:21:46.072
I at least have the beginning foundations.

00:21:47.292 --> 00:21:53.452
Of curricula or a text that's going to be enriching for my students and help

00:21:53.452 --> 00:21:58.592
to build what we would want, which is a culturally responsive learning space. Okay.

00:21:59.152 --> 00:22:02.972
I'm going to rephrase the question. I was going to do this question,

00:22:03.867 --> 00:22:09.067
a certain way, but I'm going to do it different because it was like the second

00:22:09.067 --> 00:22:14.047
thing I wanted to explain was the six lessons from the past.

00:22:14.927 --> 00:22:20.367
So let me, let me make it out of community, civic engagement,

00:22:20.607 --> 00:22:24.807
creativity, mentoring, the whole child and lifelong learning.

00:22:25.507 --> 00:22:30.407
Which one do you, do you think is the most important?

00:22:30.587 --> 00:22:35.027
Cause I, you've listed them all. so they have their place. But which one do

00:22:35.027 --> 00:22:38.007
you kind of like get into more?

00:22:38.747 --> 00:22:40.887
Oh, that's so hard. I would say...

00:22:42.613 --> 00:22:49.733
Lifelong learning is probably one of those that it would be one of my top two that if I had to pick.

00:22:49.873 --> 00:22:56.813
I think one of the stories that really just struck me was how many of my participants

00:22:56.813 --> 00:22:59.533
talked about continuing their education.

00:22:59.533 --> 00:23:05.993
And when we think about doing this during segregated Jim Crow, I just was like, wow.

00:23:06.293 --> 00:23:09.913
And I'm complaining about, you know, student loans, but wow.

00:23:10.653 --> 00:23:15.173
My mother would talk about how my grandmother in the summers,

00:23:15.333 --> 00:23:18.113
you know, would leave, even though there was a college right there,

00:23:18.393 --> 00:23:24.513
right down the road. she would have to leave the state and go elsewhere to continue her education.

00:23:24.813 --> 00:23:31.233
So that dedication to continuously perfecting craft, to expanding knowledge.

00:23:32.013 --> 00:23:36.953
I just was like, that's such an important thing that has been fought for.

00:23:37.193 --> 00:23:42.173
We don't even sometimes realize that. But most of the women that I interviewed

00:23:42.173 --> 00:23:43.613
all had master's degrees.

00:23:43.953 --> 00:23:46.473
And that was just like, wow. Wow.

00:23:46.833 --> 00:23:52.893
Because I think sometimes, especially, you know, Eurocentric history books and

00:23:52.893 --> 00:24:00.653
courses in elementary, middle school, high school, they frame this narrative that, you know,

00:24:00.973 --> 00:24:03.433
education in the Black community is not valued.

00:24:03.433 --> 00:24:05.873
And it's so false.

00:24:06.133 --> 00:24:11.413
And so to hear these women talk about making sure that they were continuing

00:24:11.413 --> 00:24:18.493
their education, you know, there weren't scholarships and grants and things like that happening.

00:24:18.493 --> 00:24:24.473
So this was a financial burden. It was, you know, it involved traveling.

00:24:25.393 --> 00:24:29.693
I mean, just all of the things. And so that, I think, struck me as like, wow.

00:24:30.055 --> 00:24:32.875
When we say lifelong learning, it took on a whole new meaning.

00:24:33.275 --> 00:24:40.315
You know, you touched on something when you said the stereotype is that the

00:24:40.315 --> 00:24:42.255
Black community doesn't value education.

00:24:43.955 --> 00:24:47.615
I, first of all, I just, you know, I agree with you.

00:24:47.855 --> 00:24:53.275
That's totally ludicrous because it was like that was the thing that was always

00:24:53.275 --> 00:24:55.215
stressed. My mom was an educator.

00:24:55.455 --> 00:25:00.855
My dad was like a math major and all this stuff. And he he couldn't understand

00:25:00.855 --> 00:25:02.455
why I didn't understand math. Right.

00:25:02.955 --> 00:25:06.275
And I mean, you know, but there was like it was understood.

00:25:06.915 --> 00:25:09.915
You're going to college. You know what I'm saying? We went to college.

00:25:10.155 --> 00:25:11.695
You go into college, you know, that's right.

00:25:12.075 --> 00:25:15.915
And and and, you know, for some of my classmates or whatever,

00:25:16.115 --> 00:25:18.755
they were going to be the first ones to go. Right.

00:25:19.055 --> 00:25:22.575
And so, you know, it was just, it was just important.

00:25:23.275 --> 00:25:30.875
And, you know, but I think if we get into it a little more, it's like when we

00:25:30.875 --> 00:25:35.175
looked at education, you and I, you're younger than me, but, you know.

00:25:36.276 --> 00:25:42.296
We come basically from the same background where it's like education equated freedom.

00:25:43.396 --> 00:25:55.056
And, you know, maybe there's the generations after us look at education as money, right, as status.

00:25:56.096 --> 00:26:00.296
Yeah. And it's not so they don't value it the same way, but it's still valued

00:26:00.296 --> 00:26:06.976
because they're looking for a way out from where they are or a step up.

00:26:07.176 --> 00:26:12.876
But it may be how the degree or the type of value we put on education might be different.

00:26:13.016 --> 00:26:18.876
But it's a total misnomer to say that that that black folks don't value education.

00:26:18.876 --> 00:26:23.736
Yeah, I think, you know, discovering the work of Vanessa Siddle Walker,

00:26:24.056 --> 00:26:28.076
who, and people like Gloria Ladson-Billings, but Vanessa Siddle Walker,

00:26:28.216 --> 00:26:31.996
I leaned on heavily for my research, Dr.

00:26:32.136 --> 00:26:37.796
Chris Spann's book, From Cottonfield to Schoolhouse, and all of that history

00:26:37.796 --> 00:26:45.096
tells us the exact opposite of what oftentimes our false history books in schools tell.

00:26:45.096 --> 00:26:51.136
And so, you know, part of my goal in documenting this is I want to make sure

00:26:51.136 --> 00:26:59.156
that people and readers and specifically I think about my students and my own children,

00:26:59.156 --> 00:27:03.976
I want them to know the names and the stories and the history correctly.

00:27:03.976 --> 00:27:09.556
And I think what's so beautiful about Mississippi history is it illustrates

00:27:09.556 --> 00:27:16.476
how everyday people from maybe circumstances that are less than ideal can do

00:27:16.476 --> 00:27:18.436
these incredible things.

00:27:19.256 --> 00:27:24.836
And so that, I mean, that's just such a beautiful part of our history that I think is skipped over.

00:27:25.336 --> 00:27:29.016
And so my goal, I remember when I first said to my participant,

00:27:29.036 --> 00:27:33.356
Charles Cooper, who really has been become like a father figure to me.

00:27:33.436 --> 00:27:39.056
And I said, I am going to make sure that these histories are recorded because I just was so...

00:27:40.120 --> 00:27:47.720
Honored and proud to hear all of the many things that they were able to do.

00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:53.380
And, you know, he talks about so often that it's also a misnomer that segregated

00:27:53.380 --> 00:27:57.100
communities were these terrible, horrible things.

00:27:57.320 --> 00:28:01.500
And, you know, he said, when I was growing up, like, we had Black businesses

00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:06.000
and Black dentists and doctors. And, you know, you'd look at Mobile Street,

00:28:06.060 --> 00:28:09.360
and it would be lined with, you know, Black professionals.

00:28:09.380 --> 00:28:15.000
And he said, I wanted to be a teacher because I had teachers who were mentors

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:19.460
and, you know, incredibly dedicated to the craft.

00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:24.800
And so, you know, he said, I wish that my children could have experienced actually

00:28:24.800 --> 00:28:28.520
what it would have been like what I had being in Black spaces.

00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:33.820
So I thought that narrative was also very important to make sure that people

00:28:33.820 --> 00:28:38.340
understood, yes, there was the realities of Jim Crow and of violence,

00:28:38.340 --> 00:28:43.680
but the both and peace comes in and Black communities did well.

00:28:43.860 --> 00:28:50.540
And most of my participants talked about how that shifted after desegregation.

00:28:50.920 --> 00:28:54.260
And it was an unfortunate shift. Yeah. Yeah.

00:28:55.505 --> 00:28:59.785
How do those principles or frameworks help leverage artificial intelligence?

00:29:00.725 --> 00:29:06.665
Oh, goodness. You mean bring about the book, that book? Yeah.

00:29:06.985 --> 00:29:10.745
Because I think AI is here. And I know,

00:29:11.045 --> 00:29:17.225
you know, as an English teacher by trade, I've had the same probably concerns

00:29:17.225 --> 00:29:22.385
as many of us, which is like, what is this going to do to our students'

00:29:22.785 --> 00:29:25.685
ability to analyze, to write, to think?

00:29:25.685 --> 00:29:31.605
But I think, and I say it in the AI book, teachers have gone through,

00:29:31.605 --> 00:29:34.685
you know, learning how to deal with smart boards,

00:29:35.105 --> 00:29:40.745
the, you know, the World Wide Web being introduced, overhead projectors.

00:29:40.905 --> 00:29:45.745
I mean, I think one of the things that good teachers do well is we know how

00:29:45.745 --> 00:29:47.565
to pivot and we know how to...

00:29:49.194 --> 00:29:55.394
Use tools in the way that they're meant to be used and keep learning human-centered.

00:29:55.734 --> 00:30:01.114
And so I'm like, there are some great tools. There are some great AI tools for ELL learners.

00:30:01.114 --> 00:30:06.854
There are some worthwhile things that I think if we use them responsibly and

00:30:06.854 --> 00:30:14.494
we teach our students how to use them and also teach our students about the harms of AI,

00:30:14.734 --> 00:30:18.814
that would make for some really interesting, you know, Socratic seminars and

00:30:18.814 --> 00:30:22.114
discussions because AI, it's a trip, right?

00:30:22.194 --> 00:30:25.174
I mean, we know it is not equitable.

00:30:25.654 --> 00:30:30.154
It has racial bias, all of which comes from humans, you know?

00:30:30.274 --> 00:30:35.234
So like what I just think about, like my high school kids would have loved debating

00:30:35.234 --> 00:30:38.914
that or talking about that and looking at those tools.

00:30:39.134 --> 00:30:43.134
So I think there are tools out there that are worthwhile,

00:30:43.474 --> 00:30:48.174
but we have to make sure that really what we're doing when we work with our

00:30:48.174 --> 00:30:56.194
students is we are co-creating with them and we are modeling how to responsibly use these tools.

00:30:56.414 --> 00:31:00.174
And like I said, making sure that we're analyzing and we're looking at both

00:31:00.174 --> 00:31:03.874
the benefits and the harms. I think that piece is really important,

00:31:03.874 --> 00:31:09.714
but it's not going away. So we've got to find a way to kind of grapple with it. Yeah.

00:31:10.034 --> 00:31:12.934
Yeah. It's, it's, it's really, really interesting. I, you know,

00:31:13.054 --> 00:31:17.734
I just remind people when, when I, when I talk about it, that,

00:31:17.914 --> 00:31:21.654
you know, it's getting his information from us.

00:31:22.154 --> 00:31:28.454
That's right. So if you take away the human element, then AI is not worth anything

00:31:28.454 --> 00:31:32.674
because it's not going to get its source. So we've always got to be creative.

00:31:32.834 --> 00:31:39.034
We've always got to push the norm. so that way AI can catch up with us.

00:31:39.154 --> 00:31:41.034
You know, I think a lot of people...

00:31:42.002 --> 00:31:45.342
Gotten to this point where we're surrendering to AI. I don't know.

00:31:45.642 --> 00:31:53.022
But I just wanted to, since you wrote a book about that, I just wanted to tap into that a little bit.

00:31:53.402 --> 00:31:57.122
Yeah. I really, we wrote that book, my coauthor, Brittany Collins,

00:31:57.282 --> 00:32:00.762
and I really wrote it because we were like, you know, at the same point,

00:32:00.862 --> 00:32:04.462
I think all of us have been at, which is like, what are we, what are we going to do with this?

00:32:04.942 --> 00:32:09.642
And so it was really kind of a great way for us to explore how to do it in a

00:32:09.642 --> 00:32:14.082
way that would benefit and not harm students. Yeah.

00:32:14.562 --> 00:32:20.642
I was just trying to visualize how the people that you did the research with

00:32:20.642 --> 00:32:22.882
would have dealt with that.

00:32:23.482 --> 00:32:25.282
Yeah. Right?

00:32:27.182 --> 00:32:31.222
That's a really good question. And actually, that's a question I think they

00:32:31.222 --> 00:32:35.822
would say, you know, this is when we have to teach history and this is why history

00:32:35.822 --> 00:32:40.622
is so important because some of these sites, there's a magic school,

00:32:40.842 --> 00:32:45.042
I think it is, and you can say, like, give me a lesson about the civil rights

00:32:45.042 --> 00:32:48.362
movement, and it'll give you one in 10 seconds. It's pretty frightening.

00:32:49.082 --> 00:32:55.122
So where, you know, reading and understanding true history comes in is if you

00:32:55.122 --> 00:32:59.342
would read through this lesson that it spits out, you could identify,

00:32:59.942 --> 00:33:06.442
oh, this person was not in the movement or this person who should not be absent isn't here.

00:33:06.902 --> 00:33:11.822
So yeah, I think there's some great ways to teach students how to do deeper

00:33:11.822 --> 00:33:13.982
analysis and ask better questions.

00:33:14.502 --> 00:33:18.342
But we just have to be willing to kind of, I think that's where our own learning

00:33:18.342 --> 00:33:20.882
comes in, right? You ask me, what's the most important?

00:33:21.122 --> 00:33:24.402
I mean, lifelong learning, things change and shift every day.

00:33:24.542 --> 00:33:31.182
And so as educators, I don't think we're ever finished with expanding our knowledge and craft. Yeah.

00:33:31.382 --> 00:33:36.142
You write your books to improve the pedagogy of school in schools,

00:33:36.382 --> 00:33:38.382
especially those in the black community.

00:33:38.662 --> 00:33:43.642
Can you apply the knowledge you impart into politics and how?

00:33:44.792 --> 00:33:51.352
Mm, and to politics. I mean, I think education is political.

00:33:51.732 --> 00:33:57.292
It's always been political in the sense that we know education was not created

00:33:57.292 --> 00:33:59.332
for Black and brown folks, right?

00:34:00.252 --> 00:34:07.712
Not with us in mind. And so when I think about, like, Liberatore education,

00:34:07.712 --> 00:34:14.112
I think that is an act of resistance. So I think that makes it political.

00:34:14.792 --> 00:34:22.632
And I don't know, other than to just teach bravely, I've had teachers say like,

00:34:22.752 --> 00:34:27.112
well, I don't want to get, you know, fired. I don't want to get in trouble. So how do I do this?

00:34:27.712 --> 00:34:32.552
And I just, I mean, that was never a question for me, right?

00:34:32.692 --> 00:34:38.952
As an educator, I always knew that information and students and families were number one.

00:34:39.992 --> 00:34:43.912
So I think it's political in the sense that now it is, especially now,

00:34:44.072 --> 00:34:49.432
it is asking teachers, and that includes, you know, our majority of white teachers

00:34:49.432 --> 00:34:54.172
to unhush, to teach bravely,

00:34:54.492 --> 00:34:57.972
to sometimes challenge curriculum and policies.

00:34:58.272 --> 00:35:01.352
And all of those things are political. Yeah.

00:35:02.232 --> 00:35:05.812
I, you know, when I was thinking of this, when I was writing this question down,

00:35:05.872 --> 00:35:08.412
I was thinking about an experience I had.

00:35:08.752 --> 00:35:11.312
I was teaching at Piney Woods Country Life School.

00:35:12.252 --> 00:35:17.332
And, you know, the normal curriculum is like Martin Luther King,

00:35:17.512 --> 00:35:19.992
I have a dream, all this stuff, right? Yeah.

00:35:20.192 --> 00:35:26.852
And so and for some reason, the the principal of the elementary school came

00:35:26.852 --> 00:35:31.772
in when I was teaching and I wasn't talking about I have a dream.

00:35:31.932 --> 00:35:34.112
I was talking about Operation Breadbasket.

00:35:35.368 --> 00:35:40.448
And the founding of the SCLC and, you know, Dr. King had pivoted to Chicago

00:35:40.448 --> 00:35:41.748
and all that kind of stuff.

00:35:42.668 --> 00:35:47.008
And he pulled me to the side afterwards. He said, yeah, Mr.

00:35:47.088 --> 00:35:50.508
Fleming, that's not in the curriculum. It's like, why are you doing that?

00:35:50.588 --> 00:35:53.488
And I said, because this is a black school.

00:35:54.248 --> 00:35:57.928
If I was at a white school, I know I'd be pushing the limit.

00:35:57.928 --> 00:36:06.588
But here, it's like the fact that this school exists is against the norm,

00:36:06.988 --> 00:36:09.248
right? The oldest black boarding school in America.

00:36:09.408 --> 00:36:15.548
And I said, if you got a problem with me expanding the lesson, right?

00:36:15.668 --> 00:36:20.008
They know that I have a dream speech. They could all probably do it at the auditorium.

00:36:20.248 --> 00:36:21.108
You know what I'm saying? Right.

00:36:21.748 --> 00:36:26.108
But it's like, it's not about that. And you know that because you lived through that.

00:36:26.768 --> 00:36:29.628
And he just kind of said, well, Mr. Fleming, you know, just in case.

00:36:29.628 --> 00:36:34.008
I said, okay, well, just in case, tell him to come talk to me.

00:36:34.448 --> 00:36:39.108
And, you know, but there wasn't any feedback, you know, negative feedback off that.

00:36:39.208 --> 00:36:43.908
But I just thought about that when you were talking about, you know,

00:36:44.208 --> 00:36:45.948
being brave in teaching.

00:36:46.168 --> 00:36:50.708
And I think that, first of all, I have a high regard for educators.

00:36:50.708 --> 00:36:55.528
I have a high regard for historians and all that. And I just, I don't understand why.

00:36:57.072 --> 00:37:00.912
Why people are afraid to do with, and I'm also a Christian.

00:37:01.352 --> 00:37:09.152
So part of my faith is understanding that enlightenment is what we're trying to get to, right?

00:37:09.392 --> 00:37:12.232
We need to know as much as we can, right?

00:37:12.732 --> 00:37:15.952
That all that's on the earth, if we're supposed to have, quote unquote,

00:37:16.132 --> 00:37:20.072
dominion, then we need to know we're overseeing, right?

00:37:20.192 --> 00:37:24.932
And so I just never understood the fear that comes with education,

00:37:24.932 --> 00:37:29.292
with the, you know, the pressure that, but a lot of that is political.

00:37:29.292 --> 00:37:34.412
And we definitely are seeing that now in this, in this political climate.

00:37:34.952 --> 00:37:37.952
All right. So let me close out with these two, because this was,

00:37:38.172 --> 00:37:42.052
it's kind of a theme and, you know, the other guests I might have on,

00:37:42.152 --> 00:37:43.792
I might ask them the same questions.

00:37:44.372 --> 00:37:51.112
Do you want things for black folks to be better, easier, or more impactful?

00:37:52.427 --> 00:37:58.487
Oh, ask it one more time. Do you want things for Black folks to be better,

00:37:58.987 --> 00:38:01.547
easier, or more impactful?

00:38:04.207 --> 00:38:11.947
I would say more impactful because I think more impactful embodies that better piece.

00:38:12.347 --> 00:38:17.647
And I don't think we've ever had it easier. And I think that we've been okay

00:38:17.647 --> 00:38:18.987
with not having it easier.

00:38:19.187 --> 00:38:23.247
So to me, it's like, oh, skip that one. The more impactful piece,

00:38:23.407 --> 00:38:26.227
I think, is the one that resonates with me.

00:38:26.407 --> 00:38:30.967
I want things to be more impactful. Now, I disagree with you,

00:38:31.127 --> 00:38:34.867
but it's not a gotcha kind of

00:38:34.867 --> 00:38:40.467
question. It's just, see, I'm the one that wants it to be easier, right?

00:38:40.667 --> 00:38:44.127
For that very point you mentioned, that it hasn't been easy for us.

00:38:44.407 --> 00:38:48.927
See, because to me, impactful, you know, if somebody asked me the question,

00:38:49.067 --> 00:38:53.067
I'd say impactful, you know, what's going on now is impacting me,

00:38:53.467 --> 00:38:54.687
right? In a negative sense.

00:38:55.547 --> 00:38:59.107
So I don't know, impact could be good or bad. Right.

00:38:59.627 --> 00:39:06.227
Better is like I've got it better now than my parents had because I have a little

00:39:06.227 --> 00:39:09.587
more access. I got this nice little phone where I can talk to you.

00:39:10.067 --> 00:39:14.807
You know, I got these computers, all this kind of stuff. They didn't have all that. Right.

00:39:15.407 --> 00:39:19.107
And so that's better. But to me, easier because it's like.

00:39:20.082 --> 00:39:28.482
Whenever we get to a point where you just say, I want society to be like sports, right?

00:39:28.802 --> 00:39:35.182
It's like, I'm a big sports fan and Chicago fan at that.

00:39:35.422 --> 00:39:42.362
And so it's like all Chicago ever wanted was a quarterback for the Bears.

00:39:44.082 --> 00:39:48.622
Just play the game at a high level, right? It didn't matter if he's black,

00:39:48.782 --> 00:39:50.522
white, Native American, Latino.

00:39:50.802 --> 00:39:57.102
It don't matter. You can throw that ball to the receivers when we need it to win the game for us.

00:39:57.322 --> 00:40:02.682
That's all that matters. And the Bears have had their share of different type of quarterbacks.

00:40:03.542 --> 00:40:08.362
So it's like, but that's the standard. The standard is not what you look like.

00:40:08.502 --> 00:40:13.042
The standard is not where you came from. The standard is, can you play at that high level?

00:40:14.602 --> 00:40:19.382
And we're going to give you the tools to do what you need to do.

00:40:19.542 --> 00:40:21.702
You're going to have a coach. You're going to have a playbook.

00:40:21.842 --> 00:40:23.362
You're going to have a football.

00:40:23.642 --> 00:40:25.622
You're going to have the right equipment. You're going to have a trainer.

00:40:25.822 --> 00:40:29.782
You're going to have all the things, right, to be successful.

00:40:30.262 --> 00:40:34.442
We just want to see what you can do with all of that.

00:40:34.782 --> 00:40:41.822
And my thing is that if society was like that, Black folks would be way better

00:40:41.822 --> 00:40:45.102
off. So that's why I tend to go with easier.

00:40:45.302 --> 00:40:47.642
But, you know, like I said, it's not a gotcha question.

00:40:47.962 --> 00:40:52.762
No, no, no. It's just to kind of pick a brain and see where people are.

00:40:53.282 --> 00:40:56.042
That's a great question. I think when I hear the word easier...

00:40:57.270 --> 00:41:03.370
I am like with it because I think sometimes there's like a dumbing down,

00:41:03.370 --> 00:41:07.890
you know, I remember my son was in the NICU for many, many, many months.

00:41:08.430 --> 00:41:13.690
And literally every day, a nurse or a doctor would say to my husband and I,

00:41:13.910 --> 00:41:15.470
you all are so articulate.

00:41:16.230 --> 00:41:20.450
And my husband's very calm. But at one point he was like, you know,

00:41:20.590 --> 00:41:24.190
we're both educated, right? I mean, like, why do we keep saying this.

00:41:24.390 --> 00:41:29.070
And so I think when I hear easier, I think of the dumbing down and the,

00:41:29.070 --> 00:41:33.370
and the surprised reaction that people have when they're like,

00:41:33.430 --> 00:41:36.050
oh, you know, you have a doctorate or you're blah, blah, blah.

00:41:36.210 --> 00:41:40.790
Some of my participants even talked about, you know, never being really acknowledged

00:41:40.790 --> 00:41:46.130
for their accolades and, and intellect and education.

00:41:46.130 --> 00:41:51.270
And so I'm like, when I hear easier, I think about, I think I thought about that.

00:41:51.410 --> 00:41:53.450
And so it was like, oh, No, we don't want easier.

00:41:53.910 --> 00:41:57.590
Right. We don't want a dummy. We don't want the dumbing down or the,

00:41:57.770 --> 00:42:00.750
hey, you know, I think sometimes in classrooms. Right.

00:42:00.770 --> 00:42:03.830
We think we don't need it to be rigorous for these kids.

00:42:04.650 --> 00:42:09.010
And so, yeah, that word for me, I'm like, but you're right.

00:42:09.490 --> 00:42:12.370
Yeah. I your perspective is good. Yeah.

00:42:12.770 --> 00:42:15.610
You know, when you said articulate, it was like in the South,

00:42:15.730 --> 00:42:17.570
they say, you're so well spoken.

00:42:18.990 --> 00:42:23.850
That's what they hit you with. All right. All right. My final closing question.

00:42:24.310 --> 00:42:27.770
Finish this sentence. I have hope because.

00:42:28.830 --> 00:42:35.150
Of young generations. I have hope because I think about my students.

00:42:35.390 --> 00:42:40.250
I think about some of the pre-service teachers that I've been lucky enough to mentor.

00:42:40.850 --> 00:42:50.470
And they are, I feel like, determined to make our world more just and equitable.

00:42:50.750 --> 00:42:53.030
And so I have hope because of them.

00:42:54.408 --> 00:42:59.348
So, Dr. Marlee Bunch, how can people get in touch with you? How can people get

00:42:59.348 --> 00:43:00.828
your books, all that stuff?

00:43:01.788 --> 00:43:06.268
Thank you for asking that. Yes, they can order Unlearning the Hush or The Magnitude

00:43:06.268 --> 00:43:12.028
of Us on Amazon.com, or you can get them from the University of Illinois Press

00:43:12.028 --> 00:43:13.948
where Unlearning the Hush is.

00:43:14.528 --> 00:43:20.288
Magnitude of Us is Teachers College Press. Instagram is at Unlearning the Hush.

00:43:20.288 --> 00:43:25.788
And you can reach out to me also on my website, which is marleybunch.com.

00:43:26.288 --> 00:43:31.028
Well, Dr. Marley Bunch, I greatly appreciate you coming on during this holiday season.

00:43:31.948 --> 00:43:37.428
I really enjoyed the conversation. And the rule is now that since you have been

00:43:37.428 --> 00:43:39.948
on the show, you have an open invitation to come back.

00:43:40.708 --> 00:43:44.148
Yay. Well, thank you for having me. Yeah. You don't even have to wait for me

00:43:44.148 --> 00:43:47.768
to ask. You say, Erik, I need to talk about something. We'll get you on a microphone.

00:43:48.368 --> 00:43:51.688
I appreciate you. So, again, thank you for doing this.

00:43:52.288 --> 00:43:55.708
Thank you, sir. Appreciate you. All right, guys. And we're going to catch you all on.

00:44:15.142 --> 00:44:21.382
All right, and we are back. And so it is time for my next guest, Dr. Patrice Fenton.

00:44:21.762 --> 00:44:28.342
Dr. Patrice E. Fenton is co-founder and head of organizational well-being at

00:44:28.342 --> 00:44:29.322
the Ella Baker Institute.

00:44:29.782 --> 00:44:35.522
She is a proud mom of three, Brooklyn, New York native, and former NYC Department

00:44:35.522 --> 00:44:39.242
of Education middle school special educator. Dr.

00:44:39.402 --> 00:44:45.042
Fenton has cultivated an expertise as an equity-centered strategist with a passion

00:44:45.042 --> 00:44:50.222
for leadership development, teacher education, and generating collective wellness,

00:44:50.402 --> 00:44:51.982
particularly in Black communities.

00:44:52.282 --> 00:44:57.702
She is a highly skilled facilitator and has deep experience in leadership and

00:44:57.702 --> 00:45:01.822
organizational development, as well as measurement and evaluation,

00:45:02.202 --> 00:45:07.122
particularly regarding impact in Black and Brown communities. Dr.

00:45:07.262 --> 00:45:11.942
Fenton is the former Director of Leader Support and Development at EDLOC,

00:45:12.282 --> 00:45:17.402
a nonprofit professional network organization of over 1,000 education leaders

00:45:17.402 --> 00:45:19.822
of color across 30-plus states.

00:45:19.822 --> 00:45:27.002
She also served as the first associate director of the mayoral initiative NYC

00:45:27.002 --> 00:45:29.982
Men Teach at the City University of New York,

00:45:30.182 --> 00:45:37.502
as well as an adjunct assistant professor in the Department of Special Education at Hunter College.

00:45:38.002 --> 00:45:43.562
Dr. Fenton has co-authored a book set for release in March 2026 entitled The

00:45:43.562 --> 00:45:45.022
Promise of Collective Leadership.

00:45:45.822 --> 00:45:51.562
She is also co-host of the Educate U.S. podcast, along with her co-author, Dr.

00:45:51.722 --> 00:45:55.502
Stacey Schultz. She holds four degrees, including a Ph.D.

00:45:55.582 --> 00:46:00.302
In teaching and learning with a concentration in special education from the

00:46:00.302 --> 00:46:05.402
University of Miami and a bachelor's in business administration from Temple University.

00:46:05.622 --> 00:46:10.002
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:46:10.002 --> 00:46:13.602
on this podcast, Dr. Patrice Fenton.

00:46:24.608 --> 00:46:29.628
All right. Dr. Patrice Fenton, how are you doing, sister? You doing good?

00:46:30.308 --> 00:46:33.808
I'm well. I really, really am very grateful. I stay in gratitude.

00:46:34.708 --> 00:46:38.608
Well, happy holidays to you. It's good to see you.

00:46:39.068 --> 00:46:43.648
I had the privilege of being on your podcast, you and Dr. Schultz.

00:46:44.268 --> 00:46:50.748
And so now both of you all have been on my podcast. So it's been a good thing.

00:46:51.608 --> 00:46:59.348
But I definitely wanted to get you on because you are doing some incredible

00:46:59.348 --> 00:47:02.888
work and I wanted to highlight it,

00:47:02.928 --> 00:47:07.008
especially the name of the organization you work for.

00:47:07.168 --> 00:47:09.348
And I want to get into that a little bit.

00:47:09.568 --> 00:47:14.748
So before we get started on the interview part, I do a couple of icebreakers.

00:47:15.788 --> 00:47:20.288
Okay. So the first icebreaker is a quote, and your quote is,

00:47:20.548 --> 00:47:26.388
if I fall, I'll fall five feet, four inches forward in the fight for freedom.

00:47:26.668 --> 00:47:29.608
What does that quote mean to you? Ha, ha, ha, ha.

00:47:30.688 --> 00:47:40.908
It means being willing to submit oneself to the mission and cause of one's work,

00:47:41.088 --> 00:47:44.688
the calling and mission and cause of one's work, the purpose,

00:47:45.068 --> 00:47:50.528
being willing to give one's all to what you're doing.

00:47:50.528 --> 00:47:58.028
I, it calls to mind the, the energy and the spirit of servant leadership,

00:47:58.608 --> 00:48:04.508
essentially, which is what I consider myself and the folks that I lock arms

00:48:04.508 --> 00:48:11.208
with consider themselves and, and, and why we, our organization carries the name that it does.

00:48:12.328 --> 00:48:19.008
Yeah. All right. And now the, the second icebreaker is what we call 20 questions. Okay.

00:48:19.908 --> 00:48:22.528
Give me a number between 1 and

00:48:22.528 --> 00:48:26.188
20. I'm going to go with 6. It's the first number I came about. All right.

00:48:26.588 --> 00:48:32.588
What do you think was the worst or best thing the previous administration did?

00:48:33.776 --> 00:48:39.336
Oh, okay. I'm going to go with the, you said current or previous,

00:48:39.576 --> 00:48:41.356
so I'm going to go with current. No, no, no.

00:48:41.616 --> 00:48:47.816
No, the option is what do you think was the worst or best thing the previous administration?

00:48:48.476 --> 00:48:51.176
Previous. Okay. I thought you gave me an option of current or previous.

00:48:51.416 --> 00:48:54.156
Okay. the previous administration did.

00:48:58.016 --> 00:49:03.076
Let's see. Well, if I'm being honest,

00:49:05.516 --> 00:49:11.516
this is not the first thing that comes to mind, honestly, and this is like, it connects to my work.

00:49:11.656 --> 00:49:14.096
It's not necessarily what the administration did.

00:49:14.256 --> 00:49:17.496
So I'm going to kind of like deviate a little bit from your question,

00:49:17.656 --> 00:49:19.596
is more so what the party did.

00:49:20.276 --> 00:49:26.816
But in my opinion, putting someone in office who is, I'll say,

00:49:27.016 --> 00:49:33.596
as advanced in age as our former last president was, I think is a mistake.

00:49:34.396 --> 00:49:39.976
And I don't say that from a space of being ageist. I say it from a space of

00:49:39.976 --> 00:49:48.856
really understanding that the promise, the hope, the purpose of tomorrow is for our young people.

00:49:49.676 --> 00:49:53.456
And so I think along with that, not.

00:49:55.003 --> 00:50:04.543
Not prioritizing, not centering, not positioning young people to be at the helm

00:50:04.543 --> 00:50:09.563
of change in this country is one of the worst things that we could do.

00:50:10.483 --> 00:50:14.523
There was not enough, you know, I'm a former educator, forever learner.

00:50:14.763 --> 00:50:17.883
So I come from the perspective of having been in the classroom,

00:50:17.883 --> 00:50:25.783
also a parent. I have a 21-year-old, a 12-year-old, and a one-year-old.

00:50:25.923 --> 00:50:34.103
So a full spectrum of young people who I'm blessed to steward in this life.

00:50:34.263 --> 00:50:40.923
So my perspective has been and always will be that young people are the ones,

00:50:41.143 --> 00:50:45.143
one, they're the ones that inherit everything, but that they know best.

00:50:45.143 --> 00:50:50.883
And so I just did not see enough done to secure, to advance,

00:50:51.263 --> 00:50:54.983
to improve education in this country.

00:50:55.363 --> 00:50:57.643
And that's just not the previous administration.

00:50:57.703 --> 00:51:00.843
That's pretty much every administration, if I'm being honest.

00:51:01.823 --> 00:51:08.503
So that's one. Connected to that is, you know, what happens in our schools.

00:51:10.043 --> 00:51:14.783
Specifically, largely, and then more specifically, what happens with our teachers. So...

00:51:16.023 --> 00:51:25.323
Not enough done to honor the work and effort that goes into what I consider

00:51:25.323 --> 00:51:28.423
one of the noblest professions that one could take on.

00:51:28.583 --> 00:51:35.403
I mean, Stacey and I talk about this quite often, as do my comrades at the Ella Baker Institute.

00:51:35.723 --> 00:51:40.203
You know, the fact that every person, school is compulsory in this country,

00:51:40.303 --> 00:51:41.863
so every person has to go through it.

00:51:42.023 --> 00:51:46.523
So it's a prime place really to support what happens to us, you know,

00:51:46.623 --> 00:51:50.863
at the local level and at the state national level.

00:51:51.223 --> 00:51:58.123
And they just, we haven't really seen the type of attention toward the education

00:51:58.123 --> 00:52:00.003
sector that is required.

00:52:00.003 --> 00:52:06.503
And I think necessary to advance this country in a way, in ways that are truly

00:52:06.503 --> 00:52:07.803
progressive and transformative.

00:52:08.323 --> 00:52:14.763
Yeah. So I don't know if you follow sports or anything, but there was something

00:52:14.763 --> 00:52:19.083
that happened recently in sports that reminds me of what you talked about with

00:52:19.083 --> 00:52:21.063
the 20 presidential election.

00:52:21.603 --> 00:52:26.283
The Indianapolis Colts lost their starting quarterback. Their backup quarterback

00:52:26.283 --> 00:52:27.983
was already out with an injury.

00:52:28.879 --> 00:52:35.539
So they went and got a guy who had played, who was literally eligible for the Hall of Fame this year.

00:52:36.139 --> 00:52:39.159
Got him from coaching a high school team.

00:52:39.699 --> 00:52:45.239
And he just, he played last night. He played the last two games.

00:52:46.159 --> 00:52:51.459
And so I was just thinking about when you were talking about President Biden,

00:52:51.799 --> 00:52:57.179
and it's just kind of like the Democratic Party was just like the Indianapolis Colts.

00:52:57.179 --> 00:53:02.939
They didn't see any other option better or was ready to step in at that point

00:53:02.939 --> 00:53:05.679
and felt he was the best option.

00:53:05.899 --> 00:53:10.019
And I agree with you. That's not ideal.

00:53:10.339 --> 00:53:16.339
You know, if the Joe Biden of 1988 or the Joe Biden of heck,

00:53:16.499 --> 00:53:21.339
Joe Biden of 2000 or 2008 was the option.

00:53:21.339 --> 00:53:28.719
OK, but, you know, 2020 Joe Biden was not the same, especially when it got down to 2024.

00:53:29.359 --> 00:53:36.559
But he was still he was better than the alternative, but he wasn't the best option.

00:53:36.759 --> 00:53:38.719
And that you will.

00:53:39.159 --> 00:53:45.019
I don't. The only thing that's different, I think, in the sports analogy and

00:53:45.019 --> 00:53:50.339
a political analogy is that I don't think it's stunted the growth of the party.

00:53:51.339 --> 00:53:58.399
Or stunted the politics, progressive politics, because it gave, I think, time for.

00:53:59.487 --> 00:54:04.827
Some of the people that we would want to lift up sometime to get some more experience,

00:54:04.827 --> 00:54:10.067
get out there on the national stage a little more without the pressure of being president.

00:54:10.707 --> 00:54:17.647
And by 2028, you know, we'll, we'll have a heck of a draft class.

00:54:20.807 --> 00:54:24.107
That's a good, that's a good silver lining to look forward to.

00:54:24.527 --> 00:54:30.667
That is true. Yeah. All right. So how did Dr. Patrice Fenton come to be?

00:54:32.707 --> 00:54:35.827
That is a that's a powerful question. I appreciate that.

00:54:36.947 --> 00:54:40.267
A few things come to mind when I hear the question posed in that way.

00:54:40.487 --> 00:54:45.067
One, I think of Brooklyn, where I'm born and raised.

00:54:45.547 --> 00:54:50.007
I am a very proud Brooklynite, Brooklyn, New York. Like Brooklyn,

00:54:50.407 --> 00:54:53.967
I would say, you know, my parents, my grandparents, aunts, uncles,

00:54:53.967 --> 00:54:59.087
they all poured into me tremendously to make me the woman that I am today.

00:55:00.367 --> 00:55:03.247
Brooklyn is also on that list for me.

00:55:03.887 --> 00:55:08.407
Brooklyn really is a true, they call New York City a melting pot.

00:55:08.567 --> 00:55:14.147
And I'm not really, I question how much we really are and or were because,

00:55:14.427 --> 00:55:18.407
you know, Brooklyn, I like to say, is more like a quilt.

00:55:18.567 --> 00:55:24.567
So there are different cultures and ethnicities that co-mingle.

00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:29.560
They also like hold down their own separate spaces if

00:55:29.560 --> 00:55:32.340
we're being honest they don't necessarily melt as much as we might

00:55:32.340 --> 00:55:35.980
like to think that they do however proximity is

00:55:35.980 --> 00:55:40.960
a thing so we get to experience each other and I think that is the the magic

00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:45.220
of Brooklyn so there's just so much it's just so rich you know one of my favorite

00:55:45.220 --> 00:55:49.480
things people go on vacation all kinds of places all over the world I contend

00:55:49.480 --> 00:55:52.500
that Brooklyn is like one of the best places to be in the summer is You just

00:55:52.500 --> 00:55:53.780
walk down the street and you just,

00:55:53.900 --> 00:55:56.080
you never know what you're going to run into.

00:55:56.300 --> 00:56:00.520
It could be an old friend, a fair, a new restaurant, a festival,

00:56:00.880 --> 00:56:04.560
a random concert, right? Like it's just so rich.

00:56:04.720 --> 00:56:10.340
So that is an indelible part of the fabric of who I am.

00:56:10.980 --> 00:56:14.820
And it informs the lens that I have on the world.

00:56:15.220 --> 00:56:19.040
So my idea of community is very much like that.

00:56:19.040 --> 00:56:22.600
It makes space for it's inclusive

00:56:22.600 --> 00:56:26.240
you know this is one of those buzzwords today but it

00:56:26.240 --> 00:56:34.020
really is a part of how I see the world because of where I was raised so that

00:56:34.020 --> 00:56:39.020
is a that is a huge part of how I and how I came to be the other thing that

00:56:39.020 --> 00:56:43.160
comes up for me is my grandmother I talk a lot about her.

00:56:43.620 --> 00:56:50.840
She passed in 2020, not from COVID, but she was just a really incredible.

00:56:52.330 --> 00:56:57.490
Connector, I would say. And so my idea of community, which drives what I do

00:56:57.490 --> 00:57:02.470
today, I didn't realize it until I started doing this work that it comes from her.

00:57:02.650 --> 00:57:08.450
She was a home-based child care provider and lived across the street for a good

00:57:08.450 --> 00:57:12.530
portion of her life from an elementary school, also a school which I attended.

00:57:13.050 --> 00:57:19.050
Before that, she lived in Bed-Stuy and she was just always that person in her

00:57:19.050 --> 00:57:24.410
neighborhood, wherever she lived, that pretty much anyone that was in her radius could rely on.

00:57:24.870 --> 00:57:27.890
So I tell this story, like if you need, you live downstairs,

00:57:28.090 --> 00:57:33.230
you needed a cup of sugar, you needed to borrow $5, go to the corner store.

00:57:33.730 --> 00:57:37.910
You needed to come over because, you know, your son is locked up and he has

00:57:37.910 --> 00:57:39.810
to make a collect call. You can't receive them.

00:57:39.950 --> 00:57:42.650
She would say, oh, come over. Let me know what time he's calling.

00:57:42.790 --> 00:57:47.810
I'll make sure no one else's, you know, she was just really that person in the

00:57:47.810 --> 00:57:50.170
neighborhood for a lot of people.

00:57:51.230 --> 00:57:57.110
And so I didn't realize it until very recently that I patterned a lot of my

00:57:57.110 --> 00:57:59.690
work, a lot of my leadership after her.

00:57:59.890 --> 00:58:07.070
It wasn't a conscious decision, but by, again, proximity and also by observation

00:58:07.070 --> 00:58:09.910
and just in part being raised by her,

00:58:10.090 --> 00:58:16.090
you know, alongside my parents, it just became a part of who I am and how I show up.

00:58:16.450 --> 00:58:21.610
So I would be remiss if I didn't name Elizabeth Butler as a huge part of how

00:58:21.610 --> 00:58:23.610
I came to be as well. Yeah.

00:58:24.530 --> 00:58:29.990
So another lady that seems to have had an impact in your life is Ella Baker.

00:58:30.310 --> 00:58:34.770
And you are the leader of the Ella Baker Institute.

00:58:35.170 --> 00:58:40.130
So for the listeners, tell us who Ella Baker was.

00:58:41.383 --> 00:58:45.943
So Ella Baker, I say, I like to say that I had two EBs in my life.

00:58:46.103 --> 00:58:50.403
So my grandmother, Elizabeth Butler, and then the other EB, Ella Baker.

00:58:50.883 --> 00:58:56.943
Ella Baker is essentially responsible for all the prominent names in the civil

00:58:56.943 --> 00:59:01.123
rights movement that we know so well. You're Martin Luther King, you're Rosa Parks.

00:59:01.403 --> 00:59:07.263
She was the force behind those major names. She was an indelible and a remarkable

00:59:07.263 --> 00:59:10.083
community organizer during that time. Yeah.

00:59:10.677 --> 00:59:17.517
Essentially saw leadership as something that everybody was endowed with.

00:59:17.697 --> 00:59:23.777
And so she was very against this idea of having one charismatic leader out front

00:59:23.777 --> 00:59:26.537
in the spirit of your Martin Luther Kings, right?

00:59:26.657 --> 00:59:32.917
So he came to be, because of a lot of different things, a hodgepodge of factors,

00:59:33.317 --> 00:59:34.977
right, of which she played a part.

00:59:35.097 --> 00:59:41.597
She was a huge part in how he became to be a central figure in But she contended

00:59:41.597 --> 00:59:45.837
that it's not necessary for the type of change that we want to see in our communities.

00:59:46.177 --> 00:59:52.977
In fact, it's very opposite. Her thinking was that the people themselves can lead themselves.

00:59:53.317 --> 00:59:57.237
They know best what their conditions are. They know best what kinds of changes need to be made.

00:59:57.457 --> 01:00:02.517
And so her work was really centered around positioning folks in community to

01:00:02.517 --> 01:00:07.337
be the levers of change for themselves, to not wait on anyone to come along

01:00:07.337 --> 01:00:09.397
and save them, but to do it for themselves.

01:00:09.397 --> 01:00:18.977
She, in addition to that, she really highlighted and dedicated herself to the

01:00:18.977 --> 01:00:20.417
notion of youth leadership.

01:00:20.417 --> 01:00:27.437
So we talk about SNCC and all these other prominent organizations but very particularly

01:00:27.437 --> 01:00:34.437
SNCC she was a big force behind all of the young people that came up through that organization.

01:00:35.497 --> 01:00:41.797
And and really a huge part if not the one of the biggest depending on who you

01:00:41.797 --> 01:00:47.477
talk to of the the change that we were able to see as a result of all the freedom

01:00:47.477 --> 01:00:48.937
fighters during that time period.

01:00:49.217 --> 01:00:54.877
So she's just one of those immense figures that did not care to be celebrated

01:00:54.877 --> 01:00:58.417
because the work and the people were paramount to her.

01:00:59.352 --> 01:01:04.452
And so we decided to take on the name both to honor and honor of just because

01:01:04.452 --> 01:01:10.852
we are folks who honor our ancestors, but also because not in defiance of what

01:01:10.852 --> 01:01:14.192
she stood for, but in celebration of what she stood for.

01:01:14.432 --> 01:01:18.972
She did not want to be, I'm sure it is a part of her ethos where she would not

01:01:18.972 --> 01:01:23.132
want to be the namesake of an organization.

01:01:23.372 --> 01:01:26.852
That's just who she was for her entire career, for her entire life.

01:01:27.732 --> 01:01:33.612
But we hold up her name because not many people know about her and also because

01:01:33.612 --> 01:01:39.432
it is the spirit of her work and her work ethic that we carry as part of what

01:01:39.432 --> 01:01:40.552
we do in our organization.

01:01:41.492 --> 01:01:45.132
Yeah. Yeah. She was very, very...

01:01:46.659 --> 01:01:51.539
So as far as history goes, and like you said,

01:01:51.719 --> 01:01:58.939
she wanted it that way to a degree, but I still believe that people that have

01:01:58.939 --> 01:02:03.819
done the work, that carried the water like she did, should be recognized.

01:02:03.819 --> 01:02:09.659
So I am glad that you named the Institute after her in trying to carry on the

01:02:09.659 --> 01:02:12.259
work, and that'll be my question when I get to it.

01:02:12.259 --> 01:02:17.059
But I just wanted to say, you know, the quote that you responded to was from

01:02:17.059 --> 01:02:22.279
Fannie Lou Hamer, who basically came right after her.

01:02:22.999 --> 01:02:28.319
You know, some people would say they're contemporaries, but Fannie Lou was younger and,

01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:34.519
you know, and, you know, and she had she kind of emulated Miss Baker a little

01:02:34.519 --> 01:02:38.359
bit because a lot of people that I ended up interacting with when I got to Mississippi

01:02:38.359 --> 01:02:42.859
in a movement where like her protégé is like. Dr.

01:02:43.199 --> 01:02:50.379
McLemore and Hollis Watkins and those guys, you know, they, you know, and, and, but, but Ms.

01:02:50.419 --> 01:02:53.539
Baker kind of laid the groundwork because when you talk about young people,

01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:55.399
we're talking about people like John Lewis.

01:02:55.599 --> 01:02:59.739
We're talking about people like Julian Bond and Al Raby and,

01:02:59.859 --> 01:03:04.979
and, uh, well, Bayard wasn't young, but Bayard kind of, she kind of,

01:03:05.119 --> 01:03:08.679
she kind of set the metronome for him to do some of the stuff he did.

01:03:08.999 --> 01:03:09.399
You know what I'm saying?

01:03:10.219 --> 01:03:18.279
They worked well together. I mean, but I mean, those are the kind of people that she mentored.

01:03:18.699 --> 01:03:26.099
And so you having the distinction of carrying that legacy on, I think is incredible.

01:03:26.679 --> 01:03:31.639
So my specific question is, what is the Ella Baker Institute and how does the

01:03:31.639 --> 01:03:33.039
Institute follow that legacy?

01:03:34.146 --> 01:03:41.186
Yeah. So EBI, as we call it, is an organization that centers leadership development

01:03:41.186 --> 01:03:43.646
and community well-being, those two things.

01:03:43.866 --> 01:03:48.826
So we use leadership development as a vehicle to bring about community well-being

01:03:48.826 --> 01:03:50.386
in the spirit of Ella Baker.

01:03:50.626 --> 01:03:55.226
And we do that by focusing on three different groups, you could say.

01:03:55.446 --> 01:03:59.006
So one is young people. So we do a lot of work in the youth development space,

01:03:59.366 --> 01:04:02.586
particularly through after-school programming, but a whole lot more.

01:04:02.586 --> 01:04:08.586
We do work with social impact organizations whose work focuses on marginalized,

01:04:08.866 --> 01:04:10.746
but particularly Black communities.

01:04:11.086 --> 01:04:15.226
And then we do work directly with communities as well.

01:04:15.446 --> 01:04:20.326
And so what that looks like is making sure, first and foremost,

01:04:20.326 --> 01:04:24.346
one of the things that we carry forth from her legacy and from her approach

01:04:24.346 --> 01:04:27.126
to community organizing was that we listen.

01:04:27.806 --> 01:04:32.466
So we all, my comrades and I, my co-founders and the folks that,

01:04:32.826 --> 01:04:35.966
other leaders within our organization that we've locked arms with,

01:04:36.146 --> 01:04:40.546
we all come from Brooklyn and or New York City in some proximity.

01:04:40.826 --> 01:04:44.206
Our board is 100% from that area as well.

01:04:44.626 --> 01:04:48.546
And so we are very familiar with the context that we serve.

01:04:49.729 --> 01:04:53.169
Don't take for granted that we we know exactly what

01:04:53.169 --> 01:04:56.069
the challenges are in the neighborhoods that we where we

01:04:56.069 --> 01:04:59.149
hyper focus our work so listening is

01:04:59.149 --> 01:05:05.949
a huge part of the work and of carrying the spirit of how Ella Baker did what

01:05:05.949 --> 01:05:11.029
she did and so I remember even reading her autobiography this is one of the

01:05:11.029 --> 01:05:14.329
things that stuck with me she would be in the room with a bunch of young people

01:05:14.329 --> 01:05:18.829
and they would look to her because she's this elder, she has this wisdom,

01:05:19.209 --> 01:05:23.389
she's done so much and they would ask her questions and she would not answer.

01:05:23.929 --> 01:05:28.689
I mean, she would let them lead, right? So this is one of the things that we

01:05:28.689 --> 01:05:30.189
carry forth tremendously.

01:05:30.869 --> 01:05:35.109
Not only in the work that we do with those three groups that I mentioned,

01:05:35.369 --> 01:05:38.509
but even amongst ourselves as leaders within the organization,

01:05:38.509 --> 01:05:43.849
when we communicate with one another, when we are planning for whatever we're doing,

01:05:44.329 --> 01:05:48.709
We make space to listen to one another, to make sure that we're hearing each other.

01:05:48.889 --> 01:05:52.129
And this trickles out to the folks that we serve.

01:05:52.489 --> 01:05:55.869
We take up the mantle of servant leadership and we take it up very,

01:05:56.009 --> 01:06:03.669
very intently, passionately, and devotedly in mean service in the truest sense of the word.

01:06:03.669 --> 01:06:06.569
And so we're just always looking for ways that we can serve but

01:06:06.569 --> 01:06:09.409
we know the best way to do that is not to go in and

01:06:09.409 --> 01:06:13.669
think that we know what communities need to be better but

01:06:13.669 --> 01:06:17.249
instead to take a pause and to to make sure that we're listening and not just

01:06:17.249 --> 01:06:21.329
listening to anybody either making sure that we're connected to the right people

01:06:21.329 --> 01:06:27.349
in the spaces that we serve to understand what is necessary and then understand

01:06:27.349 --> 01:06:32.969
how we can be a vehicle of change toward whatever it is, the needs are there. And so that.

01:06:35.029 --> 01:06:40.069
In short, that is how we do what we do and how we approach it and how we make

01:06:40.069 --> 01:06:44.589
sure that Ella Baker's spirit and legacy is alive in pretty much everything

01:06:44.589 --> 01:06:47.009
that we endeavor to accomplish.

01:06:47.449 --> 01:06:52.849
Is there a particular program that y'all run that, you know,

01:06:52.929 --> 01:06:53.809
that you want to highlight?

01:06:54.949 --> 01:07:01.089
Yeah, absolutely. What we call our flagship program is the Young People's Leadership Cooperative.

01:07:01.089 --> 01:07:07.409
And it is an after-school program that basically allows young people to,

01:07:07.689 --> 01:07:11.389
one, select, to first connect, right?

01:07:11.509 --> 01:07:17.309
So again, this idea of relationship building, which is another core component of Ella Baker's work.

01:07:17.529 --> 01:07:22.369
So, you know, you could be in a space, and in this example, in a school building

01:07:22.369 --> 01:07:26.729
and not know your fellow classmates in any kind of, you know,

01:07:26.809 --> 01:07:30.869
intimate or intentional way and or have relationships.

01:07:31.429 --> 01:07:36.309
I'll ask my children even, like, well, what school is so-and-so going to?

01:07:36.409 --> 01:07:39.749
Or what do they do on the way? And I don't know. I'm like, well,

01:07:39.809 --> 01:07:40.649
what do y'all talk about?

01:07:41.909 --> 01:07:45.809
So we create space for young people to really just connect with each other.

01:07:47.209 --> 01:07:50.489
We start our programs off by allowing them to break bread.

01:07:50.489 --> 01:07:56.929
So we bring in fresh meal and then just invoke that power of food as a way to connect.

01:07:56.929 --> 01:08:03.929
And then from there, we infuse the space with ways for them to explore identity

01:08:03.929 --> 01:08:08.149
development. So what it means to be a young Black person in today's age,

01:08:08.329 --> 01:08:11.189
in their particular context, in their particular community.

01:08:11.569 --> 01:08:16.969
And then we push them to position them rather to study what's happening in their

01:08:16.969 --> 01:08:22.329
community and isolate one challenge that is of paramount importance to them.

01:08:23.560 --> 01:08:29.440
Then we empower them with, or equip them, I should say, with resources to address

01:08:29.440 --> 01:08:32.320
whatever challenges that might come up for them.

01:08:32.440 --> 01:08:37.380
So as an example, some young people in the past have isolated gun violence.

01:08:37.620 --> 01:08:41.620
And in fact, Stacey and I were able to bring one of the young people from YPLC,

01:08:41.900 --> 01:08:45.380
Young People's Leadership Cooperative, onto our podcast to talk about the work

01:08:45.380 --> 01:08:48.160
that he was doing in his school and in his community around gun violence.

01:08:48.960 --> 01:08:55.140
Young people have addressed food injustice, just all kinds of different challenges.

01:08:55.420 --> 01:09:00.000
So the idea is that we use community organizing as a tool or the principles

01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:05.740
of community organizing as a tool to elevate the critical thinking of young

01:09:05.740 --> 01:09:08.200
people to understand what's going on in their community,

01:09:08.360 --> 01:09:13.540
what's going on in their spaces, and furthermore, what they can do to create change in those spaces.

01:09:13.800 --> 01:09:18.580
And the idea is that they not only get sort of those principles of community

01:09:18.580 --> 01:09:24.960
organizing, of leadership, of critical thinking, but also some exposure to possible

01:09:24.960 --> 01:09:26.940
career paths that they can take.

01:09:27.737 --> 01:09:30.537
Most of our young people that we've served in the middle grade,

01:09:30.697 --> 01:09:33.877
so middle school, and then we've worked with elementary schools and now we're

01:09:33.877 --> 01:09:35.177
working with high school students.

01:09:35.377 --> 01:09:38.637
But understanding that wherever you are on that K-12 spectrum,

01:09:39.137 --> 01:09:43.537
you have within you the power to think, to think critically,

01:09:43.817 --> 01:09:49.197
to make change and to think about your path ahead in terms of a possible career

01:09:49.197 --> 01:09:53.817
and ways that you can be an asset to your community.

01:09:53.817 --> 01:09:59.597
So that really is, that program is really the hallmark of why we do what we

01:09:59.597 --> 01:10:05.537
do, particularly as former educators and parents and people who love the spaces that we come from.

01:10:05.817 --> 01:10:10.557
Now, is this a year-round thing? Is this, and do they come like every day or

01:10:10.557 --> 01:10:12.837
just once a week? How does that work?

01:10:13.297 --> 01:10:16.737
Yeah, it is a school year-based program.

01:10:16.917 --> 01:10:21.277
And they come once, you know, once or so, five days a week after school.

01:10:21.277 --> 01:10:25.497
And one of our ultimate goals, I should say,

01:10:25.777 --> 01:10:30.197
is that we were taking the work that we're doing in the afterschool space and

01:10:30.197 --> 01:10:35.637
it's almost like we're incubating to see what possibilities lie there when you

01:10:35.637 --> 01:10:38.917
just give young people the space to lead.

01:10:39.737 --> 01:10:44.377
And ultimately we will turn the work that happens there into a full-fledged

01:10:44.377 --> 01:10:49.217
school model so that it extends not just from the afterschool space but into

01:10:49.217 --> 01:10:54.017
the entire school experience that a young person might have when they walk into a school building.

01:10:54.397 --> 01:10:59.337
So that's part of one of our next steps in terms of expanding our work.

01:10:59.457 --> 01:11:03.397
But for right now, yes, it is in an afterschool space, five days a week,

01:11:03.917 --> 01:11:05.417
currently in Brooklyn, New York.

01:11:05.597 --> 01:11:10.377
How many kids do you think that have gone through the program?

01:11:12.117 --> 01:11:17.417
Yeah, at this stage, I would say we're about maybe 400 to 450,

01:11:17.997 --> 01:11:21.937
somewhere in that range of students. And again, that spans from...

01:11:23.768 --> 01:11:28.128
Would say probably the third grade, realistically, all the way up to high school,

01:11:28.308 --> 01:11:32.828
with the majority of them being in the middle grade, six through eight. Wow.

01:11:33.508 --> 01:11:37.988
All right. For the work that you are doing, which one is the most important?

01:11:38.468 --> 01:11:41.988
Community, civic engagement, or creativity?

01:11:45.788 --> 01:11:54.788
That's tough Erik that is tough but community civic engagement or creativity,

01:11:57.528 --> 01:12:02.708
well you you absolutely need all three you do but you're forcing me to choose

01:12:02.708 --> 01:12:06.488
one and so I will oh you're not forcing me you're asking me to choose one and

01:12:06.488 --> 01:12:10.588
so I will I will say community.

01:12:10.948 --> 01:12:17.028
I can't not say it. I want to say creativity because it's really essential,

01:12:17.028 --> 01:12:18.308
especially in these times.

01:12:18.528 --> 01:12:23.708
I think these times call for us to be innovative and to be right-brained.

01:12:23.948 --> 01:12:26.648
But I would say that community is really essential.

01:12:28.080 --> 01:12:32.740
Most necessary driving force because, you know, if you're not focused on the

01:12:32.740 --> 01:12:39.240
people, you could easily get caught up in lots of other things that do not serve

01:12:39.240 --> 01:12:41.560
you or others for that matter.

01:12:41.740 --> 01:12:47.920
So I can't, I think I can't divorce myself from that and the power of community

01:12:47.920 --> 01:12:50.500
as I've seen it throughout my life in different ways.

01:12:50.900 --> 01:12:56.820
It is, it's crucial, especially now where we live in a time where gadgets and

01:12:56.820 --> 01:13:02.360
phones and laptops and things kind of drive pretty much everything.

01:13:03.040 --> 01:13:07.000
You know, it can be divisive. You know, it can be divisive.

01:13:07.100 --> 01:13:13.680
So I see community as a force, a vehicle, a space, and that space can be both

01:13:13.680 --> 01:13:21.400
physical and non-physical that where power can really be held collectively to bring about change.

01:13:21.680 --> 01:13:24.640
So I would say community is most important. Okay.

01:13:25.540 --> 01:13:30.080
So Ms. Baker wanted to make sure that the voices of Black women were heard during

01:13:30.080 --> 01:13:31.060
the Civil Rights Movement.

01:13:31.360 --> 01:13:35.580
But your early work involved getting more Black men into education,

01:13:35.740 --> 01:13:36.840
especially in classrooms.

01:13:37.300 --> 01:13:39.120
Why is that so important?

01:13:40.000 --> 01:13:43.420
I used to get asked this question a lot, a lot.

01:13:43.960 --> 01:13:49.400
And yeah, for me, there are a few things at play.

01:13:49.660 --> 01:13:55.340
One, the teaching force is predominantly white and female. Mostly white women

01:13:55.340 --> 01:13:58.480
are teachers in this country, has been for quite some time.

01:13:59.795 --> 01:14:03.055
That's one so there's a need for more black teachers

01:14:03.055 --> 01:14:05.935
period and and more teachers

01:14:05.935 --> 01:14:08.995
of color in general but more specifically for

01:14:08.995 --> 01:14:11.775
for black teachers so that's

01:14:11.775 --> 01:14:14.595
one part as my partner likes to say can't that's camera a

01:14:14.595 --> 01:14:21.155
right so we got that on camera a camera b we have the fact that our schools

01:14:21.155 --> 01:14:26.675
are predominantly made up of children of color right so and there have been

01:14:26.675 --> 01:14:31.775
bunches of studies that show that students benefit no matter their race,

01:14:32.075 --> 01:14:36.615
no matter their ethnicity, when you have Black teachers want and when teachers

01:14:36.615 --> 01:14:38.115
more specifically look like them,

01:14:38.715 --> 01:14:40.535
okay? So that's the other part.

01:14:40.855 --> 01:14:48.195
The other piece is that teaching for a long time has been considered women's work, all right?

01:14:48.255 --> 01:14:54.735
So to that notion, majority of the teaching force is made up of women,

01:14:55.135 --> 01:14:58.535
all right? So we have the race piece, we have the gender piece.

01:14:59.595 --> 01:15:04.075
The other piece that's really more personal for me is that I used to teach a special ed.

01:15:04.395 --> 01:15:10.775
And in a special ed context, majority of those students were Black boys.

01:15:11.755 --> 01:15:17.415
And so if you combine what I've just shared, you understand that it's important

01:15:17.415 --> 01:15:21.615
for those Black boys specifically who are among the most marginalized in our

01:15:21.615 --> 01:15:24.295
school buildings to have teachers that look like them.

01:15:24.515 --> 01:15:29.935
I was blessed to be in a space where majority of my comrades,

01:15:30.255 --> 01:15:34.715
my co-teachers who taught the same students that I did were Black men.

01:15:34.895 --> 01:15:41.555
But I knew this was an anomaly. But I would see firsthand the power that those

01:15:41.555 --> 01:15:45.655
Black men had in the classroom with all of the students,

01:15:45.835 --> 01:15:50.355
but specifically with Black boys, and not just with my special ed class where I had a class of 12,

01:15:50.615 --> 01:15:54.095
but with the other classes that I was blessed to teach.

01:15:55.051 --> 01:15:58.431
So, but I also knew what the research and what the statistics says.

01:15:58.571 --> 01:16:03.651
So I was just very, very curious about the experiences that Black men were having

01:16:03.651 --> 01:16:08.051
as teachers, also knowing that when you connect back to their experiences as

01:16:08.051 --> 01:16:12.851
students, a lot of them didn't have positive experiences in schools, right?

01:16:12.851 --> 01:16:16.871
If you think about, yeah, the fact that most teachers are white and female,

01:16:17.051 --> 01:16:22.451
they didn't get an opportunity to see people who look like them in school buildings.

01:16:22.451 --> 01:16:29.171
So I wanted to, one, highlight this need, but also understand from the perspective

01:16:29.171 --> 01:16:31.871
of Black men what that experience was like.

01:16:32.031 --> 01:16:38.311
So I focused a great deal of my career in that stage from transitioning out

01:16:38.311 --> 01:16:45.791
of the classroom into higher ed and into policy work and program work around teacher diversity.

01:16:45.791 --> 01:16:51.411
I focus a lot of my energy on Black men and getting more of them into the field

01:16:51.411 --> 01:16:53.391
because our children need them.

01:16:54.531 --> 01:16:56.591
Yeah. I was sitting there thinking...

01:16:57.878 --> 01:17:04.078
First black male teacher I had was my junior year in high school.

01:17:05.478 --> 01:17:12.898
And that was my chemistry professor. And he thought that I was the second coming of chemistry.

01:17:12.898 --> 01:17:17.798
He was trying to convince me to make chemists, you know, and,

01:17:17.918 --> 01:17:23.118
you know, it was just, you know, just, just the support that he gave, you know?

01:17:23.538 --> 01:17:28.498
And it meant something. I mean, there were Black teachers at my school,

01:17:29.078 --> 01:17:31.858
not at my elementary school, but at my high school.

01:17:32.338 --> 01:17:37.398
But he was the very first one that I had to have a class with.

01:17:37.538 --> 01:17:45.978
And so, you know, it just highlights the fact that, and our school was basically like 97% Black.

01:17:47.278 --> 01:17:50.978
The only other ethnicity we had was AAPI.

01:17:52.618 --> 01:17:55.518
So you know just just just that fact

01:17:55.518 --> 01:17:58.338
alone even at a school where the majority of the

01:17:58.338 --> 01:18:01.258
kids and it was a school where you literally had to take a test to

01:18:01.258 --> 01:18:04.558
get in you know we

01:18:04.558 --> 01:18:08.498
didn't we didn't have that kind of representation we had a lot of white females

01:18:08.498 --> 01:18:13.258
we even had a husband and wife team you know what I'm saying it was just just

01:18:13.258 --> 01:18:18.958
that kind of thing so it's it's real what you're talking about is what I'm trying

01:18:18.958 --> 01:18:21.558
to testify to. Yep, yep, yep.

01:18:22.238 --> 01:18:26.578
Ms. Baker said, give light and people will find the way.

01:18:26.998 --> 01:18:30.258
How can public policy give light?

01:18:31.178 --> 01:18:35.458
That is one of our absolute favorite Ella Baker quotes. So thank you for bringing

01:18:35.458 --> 01:18:37.358
it into our conversation here.

01:18:38.158 --> 01:18:44.558
You know, I talked about it a moment ago, and I think this is one of the things

01:18:44.558 --> 01:18:49.258
that gets missed. You asked me that question earlier about our previous administration,

01:18:49.258 --> 01:18:52.318
and I would say this applies to any administration.

01:18:55.024 --> 01:18:58.384
Policy can give light by first listening.

01:19:00.324 --> 01:19:05.724
The people who are at the helm of making policy need to listen.

01:19:06.224 --> 01:19:09.704
And listening just doesn't, it doesn't involve getting people in a room and

01:19:09.704 --> 01:19:10.884
hearing what they have to say.

01:19:10.984 --> 01:19:14.284
It involves really intentionally getting to the heart.

01:19:14.444 --> 01:19:17.724
So Ella Baker talked about the concept of what it means to be radical.

01:19:18.624 --> 01:19:23.804
And she pointed out that being radical means getting to the root of a thing.

01:19:24.584 --> 01:19:31.804
And to me, there's so many jewels and gems that she offered to us.

01:19:32.464 --> 01:19:35.684
But this is one that also sticks with me in my core.

01:19:36.144 --> 01:19:40.444
So we think about what it means to be radical. And even for my math brains out

01:19:40.444 --> 01:19:43.404
there, when you think about, you know, we found the square root of a number, right?

01:19:43.904 --> 01:19:49.304
You put the radical sign. And this to me is the heart of what is necessary to

01:19:49.304 --> 01:19:53.164
get policy passed that actually serves people.

01:19:54.277 --> 01:20:00.517
To get to the root of the challenges that people are facing and to understand

01:20:00.517 --> 01:20:06.317
how to connect those challenges with policy that will actually improve the conditions

01:20:06.317 --> 01:20:13.637
of the people and what actually can help them and position them to really activate their own power.

01:20:13.957 --> 01:20:17.717
And to me, this is what light is.

01:20:18.217 --> 01:20:22.557
It's power. It's a power source. And we all have it. We all have it.

01:20:23.257 --> 01:20:28.397
The challenge is that there's so many, in part, the way that capitalism lives

01:20:28.397 --> 01:20:34.657
in this country and works in this country, some get to activate that power where others don't.

01:20:35.057 --> 01:20:40.237
And so the way that we give light through policy is by being able to get to

01:20:40.237 --> 01:20:48.157
the root of the why and to create policy that actually addresses the gaps that

01:20:48.157 --> 01:20:51.057
come about because of what's there at that root.

01:20:51.417 --> 01:20:54.997
If you think about a tree, I like to think about, and we actually,

01:20:55.137 --> 01:21:01.837
our logo for the Ella Baker Institute is a tree in the spirit of this idea of,

01:21:01.977 --> 01:21:03.317
if you think about an oak tree,

01:21:03.517 --> 01:21:07.937
I studied nature as part of like my strategy building at a point.

01:21:08.077 --> 01:21:10.357
And it's something I love to bring to folks and to organizations.

01:21:10.737 --> 01:21:14.937
There's a sister, Adrienne Marie Brown, who talks about the ways that nature

01:21:14.937 --> 01:21:17.077
can inform us in the work that we do.

01:21:17.677 --> 01:21:22.257
So you think about oak trees, oak trees have roots. They don't go so deep as

01:21:22.257 --> 01:21:24.757
much as they go wide and they connect to one another.

01:21:25.057 --> 01:21:28.497
And so they create networks where they're able to communicate with each other, trees.

01:21:28.957 --> 01:21:36.617
So this one tree is ill, you know, the soil and the roots combined to create

01:21:36.617 --> 01:21:38.917
pathways to heal that tree.

01:21:40.045 --> 01:21:46.285
And I think it's just a profound notion that trees, these static figures in

01:21:46.285 --> 01:21:50.305
our environment, and they're doing so much for us, but also for each other,

01:21:50.605 --> 01:21:52.505
and that they connect and they communicate.

01:21:52.625 --> 01:21:55.345
They look like they're not, but they're doing so much.

01:21:55.705 --> 01:22:01.665
But it's that connectivity at the root that gets them to be around well beyond

01:22:01.665 --> 01:22:04.725
the years that we have here on this earth as humans.

01:22:05.005 --> 01:22:09.485
And so I think this is part of what I think policy is meant to do.

01:22:10.045 --> 01:22:16.385
And how it is meant to be a vehicle for change and for improvement and for transformation

01:22:16.385 --> 01:22:19.145
in our communities and the lives of our people.

01:22:19.625 --> 01:22:28.525
You know, that's the challenge of politics is that and governing is that the

01:22:28.525 --> 01:22:33.725
most effective time for listening is after the election.

01:22:34.085 --> 01:22:39.645
When people are running for office, they're basically selling you something.

01:22:40.045 --> 01:22:44.465
Right. They're trying to send you some hope or in some cases fear,

01:22:44.685 --> 01:22:46.285
but they're trying to sell you something.

01:22:46.485 --> 01:22:53.065
And so the candidates are not listeners, but projectors.

01:22:54.245 --> 01:22:59.685
But once you take that oath and get in, that's when the listening part really

01:22:59.685 --> 01:23:05.305
becomes a valuable tool or a weapon even.

01:23:05.905 --> 01:23:12.165
And, you know, and so the problem is, is that we could have a great salesman,

01:23:12.385 --> 01:23:14.105
but a terrible listener.

01:23:14.305 --> 01:23:19.125
And that usually is what happens most of the time. And that leads to the frustration

01:23:19.125 --> 01:23:23.065
that people have with politics. And that could be a whole 'nother show.

01:23:23.205 --> 01:23:24.825
So let me don't go off on a tangent.

01:23:26.165 --> 01:23:29.585
I mean, just listening to you, that's why I was thinking about it.

01:23:30.065 --> 01:23:32.505
All right. So let's close out the interview.

01:23:34.004 --> 01:23:38.664
The previous guests had to answer these same questions, so I'm going to be fair

01:23:38.664 --> 01:23:42.124
and ask them to you because it's kind of the theme of the episode.

01:23:42.384 --> 01:23:48.144
So the first question is, do you want things for Black folks to be better,

01:23:48.724 --> 01:23:51.124
easier, or more impactful?

01:23:52.524 --> 01:23:58.484
You asked the hard questions, boy. Better, easier, or more impactful?

01:24:02.784 --> 01:24:06.544
It's interesting because what I thought I would say is not what I'm actually going to say.

01:24:09.604 --> 01:24:12.804
No it is what I'm going to say it is what I'm going to say so I was going to

01:24:12.804 --> 01:24:17.984
say easier because I'm all about ease especially as I age I want things to be

01:24:17.984 --> 01:24:19.684
easy and I think about my people.

01:24:19.944 --> 01:24:24.644
We've struggled and toiled for centuries. We need ease.

01:24:25.644 --> 01:24:35.964
But then, yeah, I think about the work and I'm not sure that growth can happen when things are easy.

01:24:36.384 --> 01:24:39.484
And growth is necessary because if you're not growing, you're dying.

01:24:39.784 --> 01:24:47.184
So I'm not sure that that's my response. I want to say impactful because I think

01:24:47.184 --> 01:24:51.664
that when I think about the word impactful, I think it's more all-encompassing

01:24:51.664 --> 01:24:54.544
of things like transformation,

01:24:54.864 --> 01:24:56.744
things like growth, things like change,

01:24:57.444 --> 01:24:59.964
things like things that become better, right?

01:25:00.084 --> 01:25:06.824
So I think it encompasses more holistically what I think we need as people.

01:25:07.324 --> 01:25:10.304
It's all going. you know and like

01:25:10.304 --> 01:25:13.664
I told other guests it's not a gotcha question but yeah yeah

01:25:13.664 --> 01:25:20.324
I'm I'm with the the easier part and and and I and I use my sports brain for

01:25:20.324 --> 01:25:27.564
it and yeah you know it's like when they when they finally gave Jackie Robinson

01:25:27.564 --> 01:25:32.684
the opportunity to play he did what anybody else would do that's great.

01:25:33.743 --> 01:25:39.323
And that is every 10 at bats, he got three times. He got a hit.

01:25:39.603 --> 01:25:45.523
If you are three for 10 throughout your whole career, you are considered a legend in baseball. Right.

01:25:46.103 --> 01:25:54.683
And so once once the door was open and other, you know, other athletes were

01:25:54.683 --> 01:25:55.723
given that opportunity.

01:25:56.383 --> 01:26:00.643
Well, look at all of these these young black men that have become Hall of Famer.

01:26:00.943 --> 01:26:08.343
Right. And it's like, and my thing is, if you just get out of my way, if you just allow me,

01:26:08.643 --> 01:26:15.303
if you give me the same opportunity, if you ease these restrictions,

01:26:15.523 --> 01:26:19.663
if you ease this racism, I can show you what I can do.

01:26:21.123 --> 01:26:25.123
The concern that you have about ease maybe

01:26:25.123 --> 01:26:28.243
not being a challenge then the challenge

01:26:28.243 --> 01:26:31.203
is not so much external to me

01:26:31.203 --> 01:26:34.443
is internal because every every athlete

01:26:34.443 --> 01:26:37.523
that I've you know every great athlete that I've encountered

01:26:37.523 --> 01:26:40.543
has always said but I

01:26:40.543 --> 01:26:43.463
can do one better you know I'm saying it was

01:26:43.463 --> 01:26:46.323
one thing for Michael Jordan to say well I won a championship and

01:26:46.323 --> 01:26:49.243
that's it you know I'm saying but it's like now

01:26:49.243 --> 01:26:51.943
no I want to get the second one right we got

01:26:51.943 --> 01:26:54.923
the second one it's like can I get the third one you see

01:26:54.923 --> 01:26:57.763
what I'm saying it's like at that point it's like

01:26:57.763 --> 01:27:00.763
how what can I do to keep staying

01:27:00.763 --> 01:27:03.703
at this particular level or even to get better

01:27:03.703 --> 01:27:06.803
and so but there was no restriction to

01:27:06.803 --> 01:27:09.723
him saying well you can't dribble this way or you can't

01:27:09.723 --> 01:27:12.623
wear your shorts that way or yeah we're going

01:27:12.623 --> 01:27:15.963
to limit the black players to so many there were no restrictions

01:27:15.963 --> 01:27:22.463
it was just like here's the rules here's everything do what you do and that

01:27:22.463 --> 01:27:25.803
you know when people talk about equal playing field it's like it's more than

01:27:25.803 --> 01:27:31.763
just equals about equity because it's like I want I want to be because equal

01:27:31.763 --> 01:27:35.643
could mean different things right if I if I make.

01:27:36.679 --> 01:27:40.379
One of my favorite pictures was a box, like people trying to look over a fence.

01:27:40.699 --> 01:27:48.079
And so if you had the boxes all equal, then the shortest person couldn't see over the fence.

01:27:48.859 --> 01:27:53.699
If you had equity based on the person's height, then everybody could look over the fence, right?

01:27:53.959 --> 01:27:58.179
Right, right, right. So, I mean, that's why I tend to go toward,

01:27:58.299 --> 01:28:01.059
if the question was asked to me, I would tend to go through easy.

01:28:01.179 --> 01:28:02.239
But there's no wrong answer.

01:28:02.619 --> 01:28:05.899
Of course, of course. But when I thought about it, I said, you know,

01:28:05.999 --> 01:28:08.499
that might be the question of our moment.

01:28:09.599 --> 01:28:13.059
What do we want? Because there's always been a question about Black agenda.

01:28:13.299 --> 01:28:17.959
But again, this is your interview, not my speech. So let me get to the last question.

01:28:18.619 --> 01:28:22.979
Finish this sentence. Okay. I have hope because.

01:28:24.099 --> 01:28:25.019
I have children.

01:28:27.479 --> 01:28:33.039
Because I have children. I must. I must. I can't not.

01:28:33.459 --> 01:28:37.759
And even if I didn't, I would know children. I would have children in my community.

01:28:38.059 --> 01:28:43.399
And therefore, I must have hope. There has to be something better,

01:28:43.699 --> 01:28:46.399
easier, and more impactful left for them.

01:28:46.619 --> 01:28:53.739
And so therefore, I must positively, absolutely have hope and build something

01:28:53.739 --> 01:28:57.199
from that place so that I'm not just living off hope.

01:28:57.399 --> 01:28:59.879
Because hope can get you but so far away.

01:29:00.418 --> 01:29:03.838
That I'm working towards actually creating the thing that I'm hoping for.

01:29:05.178 --> 01:29:10.218
Yeah, that's cool. All right. So the Ella Baker Institute, EBI,

01:29:10.238 --> 01:29:12.498
as you refer to it, is a nonprofit, is it not?

01:29:12.938 --> 01:29:17.218
It is a nonprofit organization, indeed. So how can people donate to that?

01:29:17.338 --> 01:29:19.678
How can people get more information about it?

01:29:20.298 --> 01:29:23.778
Go ahead and make sure. Yeah. So if you go to our website,

01:29:23.958 --> 01:29:30.218
www.ellabakerinstitute.org, You will find the link where we would more than

01:29:30.218 --> 01:29:35.618
happily accept your generous donations to our efforts to serve young people,

01:29:35.778 --> 01:29:39.758
to serve communities with a hyper focus on Black communities.

01:29:40.418 --> 01:29:45.658
And you can also check us out on Instagram at Ella Baker Institute on Word.

01:29:45.898 --> 01:29:49.418
I mean, we'd be happy to connect with you all. please reach out to us,

01:29:49.578 --> 01:29:52.778
particularly those of you who are in schools, who work with young people,

01:29:52.878 --> 01:29:57.038
who are in organizations, or anyone just interested in learning more about the

01:29:57.038 --> 01:30:01.398
great ancestor Ella Baker and contributing in any way, financially or otherwise,

01:30:01.738 --> 01:30:03.078
please, we would love to hear from you.

01:30:03.438 --> 01:30:08.338
And this is the holiday season, which means this is the giving season. It is giving season.

01:30:08.598 --> 01:30:11.498
So keep the Ella Baker Institute in mind.

01:30:12.418 --> 01:30:16.358
Dr. Patrice Fenton, thank you so much for coming on.

01:30:16.618 --> 01:30:23.918
I really was honored to have you come on and to be able to at least talk to you twice this year.

01:30:25.198 --> 01:30:31.538
And hopefully this will be because the rule is, you know, once you have been

01:30:31.538 --> 01:30:34.598
on the show, you have an open invitation to come back.

01:30:34.758 --> 01:30:38.238
So I understand there may be a reason that you can come back.

01:30:38.238 --> 01:30:40.698
So we need to make sure that you do.

01:30:42.332 --> 01:30:47.372
Indeed. Indeed. And thank you so much for the time and the opportunity for your

01:30:47.372 --> 01:30:50.932
platform and for your voice. It is much appreciated.

01:30:51.512 --> 01:30:55.472
I am, as the season is, but always, as I started out saying,

01:30:55.612 --> 01:30:56.792
in the space of gratitude.

01:30:57.032 --> 01:30:59.432
So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right, guys.

01:30:59.532 --> 01:31:00.932
And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:31:12.303 --> 01:31:18.623
All right. And we are back. And so I want to thank Dr.

01:31:18.763 --> 01:31:20.623
Marlee Bunch, Dr.

01:31:20.783 --> 01:31:23.843
Patrice Fenton for coming on the podcast.

01:31:24.443 --> 01:31:32.903
Greatly appreciate them doing that as the holiday season was kicking into high gear.

01:31:34.243 --> 01:31:40.783
And with Dr. Bunch. Make sure that you find a way to get those books,

01:31:41.923 --> 01:31:44.303
The Magnitude of Us and Unlearning the Hush.

01:31:44.403 --> 01:31:49.283
And she's got another book that we kind of mentioned in the interview dealing with leveraging AI.

01:31:50.163 --> 01:31:55.283
So if you're a teacher, The Magnitude of Us and Leveraging AI would be good

01:31:55.283 --> 01:32:02.863
books to get to kind of have a better grasp of teaching children,

01:32:03.083 --> 01:32:06.163
especially black children, in this day and age.

01:32:06.263 --> 01:32:10.403
And so, you know, from a historical perspective and dealing with the technology.

01:32:11.523 --> 01:32:17.243
But unlearning the hush kind of gives the backstory of the magnitude of us,

01:32:17.243 --> 01:32:23.143
how she came up with the curriculum, or I think the technical term is pedagogy.

01:32:25.003 --> 01:32:26.943
To teach these children.

01:32:27.323 --> 01:32:34.383
So I hope that you would support her as far as her writing endeavors. And then with Dr.

01:32:34.543 --> 01:32:38.463
Fenton, the Ella Baker Institute, the work that they're doing with young people,

01:32:39.483 --> 01:32:44.643
you know, after school program, try to teach them leadership skills and make

01:32:44.643 --> 01:32:50.143
them well-rounded individuals, regardless of what their career path is.

01:32:50.883 --> 01:32:55.863
Better citizens, better community leaders, all that. But, you know,

01:32:55.963 --> 01:32:57.803
it's a worthwhile project.

01:32:57.963 --> 01:33:01.743
It's a worthwhile nonprofit to donate to.

01:33:02.243 --> 01:33:05.203
So as I said in the interview, this is the giving season.

01:33:05.923 --> 01:33:09.023
If you want to donate to those organizations, you can do that.

01:33:10.357 --> 01:33:16.237
So as I'm recording this, like I said, we're getting ready to start 2026.

01:33:17.037 --> 01:33:25.177
And, you know, we've, the president has decided to go after ISIS in Nigeria.

01:33:25.997 --> 01:33:30.897
And on Christmas Day, he decided to drop bombs in Nigeria.

01:33:30.897 --> 01:33:34.457
Now, to be objective,

01:33:35.457 --> 01:33:40.317
you know, if it's a situation where you're going after a terrorist organization

01:33:40.317 --> 01:33:42.277
and ISIS is a terrorist organization,

01:33:42.717 --> 01:33:50.997
the president has that authority to have strategic attacks on terrorist organizations.

01:33:50.997 --> 01:33:57.117
That goes all the way back to legislation and authority that was given after 9-11.

01:33:58.917 --> 01:34:02.317
So, you know, if you're biased toward a president like I am,

01:34:02.597 --> 01:34:06.797
you kind of always have some skepticism behind it.

01:34:06.877 --> 01:34:12.377
And of course, the timing of it to do it on Christmas, it is what it is.

01:34:12.377 --> 01:34:16.977
But to be fair, he has that authority to do that.

01:34:17.477 --> 01:34:24.817
And if it is substantiated that they have been targeting Christians in the country

01:34:24.817 --> 01:34:29.077
of Nigeria, and it seems like that he had some kind of communications with the

01:34:29.077 --> 01:34:31.877
Nigerian government before this attack happened,

01:34:32.297 --> 01:34:36.637
maybe they okayed it, maybe they encouraged it.

01:34:36.637 --> 01:34:41.317
I don't know, because this administration is not as transparent as they advertise.

01:34:43.357 --> 01:34:49.037
But if he hadn't done any of the other crazy stuff prior to this,

01:34:49.497 --> 01:34:52.097
you know, you'd have to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

01:34:52.697 --> 01:34:56.597
It's just really you want to bomb people on Christmas. Right.

01:34:57.337 --> 01:35:01.197
I just kept thinking about the Stevie Wonder song, Someday at Christmas.

01:35:01.837 --> 01:35:05.937
You know, one of his lyrics is, there'll be no more war. Right.

01:35:07.296 --> 01:35:10.856
So there's that. But, you know,

01:35:10.996 --> 01:35:22.596
it just reminds me that a new year is coming and we have a chance as citizens

01:35:22.596 --> 01:35:28.816
to continue to send a message of resistance to this administration.

01:35:29.416 --> 01:35:33.776
As much as they don't like it, as much as their egos are hurt and bruised by it.

01:35:34.296 --> 01:35:39.516
The reality is that a majority of the American people don't like what's going

01:35:39.516 --> 01:35:41.856
on. They don't like the messages coming from the White House.

01:35:41.976 --> 01:35:47.836
They don't like the appearance of the White House, the destruction of the White House. You know.

01:35:50.116 --> 01:35:56.996
Black unemployment is on the rise. Costs are going up. Health care is going up.

01:35:58.176 --> 01:36:01.796
And that's something I'm personally dealing with because I had an episode,

01:36:01.796 --> 01:36:04.316
I guess, about a couple of months ago.

01:36:05.516 --> 01:36:10.076
And so, you know, it's just, it's a reality that all of us have to face.

01:36:10.756 --> 01:36:16.616
And there's bills to be paid and, you know, you're trying to, you got to eat.

01:36:16.776 --> 01:36:21.396
And those of us who still have children in the house, we got to take care of them.

01:36:21.876 --> 01:36:24.936
If you have pets, you got to take care of your pets, right?

01:36:25.556 --> 01:36:30.596
I mean, you know, this education, all that stuff. There's just so many things

01:36:30.596 --> 01:36:32.616
that people every day are dealing with.

01:36:33.976 --> 01:36:37.736
And while they don't want the government to totally interfere with that,

01:36:38.136 --> 01:36:42.596
you know, if the government can help them out, they would greatly appreciate it.

01:36:42.976 --> 01:36:48.976
If there is a way to reduce costs, they would like to see the government do that.

01:36:49.556 --> 01:36:52.596
If there's a way to ease financial burden.

01:36:54.117 --> 01:36:56.997
Would like to see the government do that? Because, you know,

01:36:57.177 --> 01:37:00.497
that's where the stress comes from. That's where the anger comes from.

01:37:01.177 --> 01:37:06.877
You know, there's a desire in every human being to be the best they can be and

01:37:06.877 --> 01:37:12.097
to live abundantly, live a lifestyle where they're comfortable, right?

01:37:13.097 --> 01:37:18.437
Now, you know, greed kicks in when you want to exceed that, and depression kicks

01:37:18.437 --> 01:37:22.097
in when you don't think that there's a way for you to do it, right?

01:37:22.997 --> 01:37:29.997
And so, in order to have a balance, people need to feel that they're worth something.

01:37:30.597 --> 01:37:33.437
And for a lot of people, that's income.

01:37:34.757 --> 01:37:38.097
And so, we have to be sensitive to that.

01:37:38.717 --> 01:37:43.757
And, you know, when you have somebody in office who portends to have wealth

01:37:43.757 --> 01:37:47.777
or travels in those kind of circles.

01:37:49.897 --> 01:37:56.637
The worst thing that could happen is that you get somebody that's not empathetic

01:37:56.637 --> 01:37:58.517
to people that are not in that circle.

01:37:59.457 --> 01:38:02.957
I was just talking to, I think I was some relatives over the holidays,

01:38:03.817 --> 01:38:10.137
and of course politics came up in the conversation, and one of the things I was talking about was,

01:38:10.757 --> 01:38:16.477
you know, comparing our current president with a wealthy president,

01:38:16.957 --> 01:38:21.197
you know, even though it was before my time, it wasn't that far away.

01:38:21.477 --> 01:38:25.657
I mean, when I was born, President Kennedy hadn't been dead two years.

01:38:26.757 --> 01:38:33.217
And, you know, comparing Trump to Kennedy, since he decided to make that comparison

01:38:33.217 --> 01:38:36.397
for all of us by putting his name on the Kennedy Center, you know.

01:38:37.508 --> 01:38:44.388
Had a different mindset about their wealth, regardless of how they got it, right?

01:38:44.748 --> 01:38:50.428
Because a lot of us know that, you know, the old man Kennedy was involved in

01:38:50.428 --> 01:38:53.728
the bootlegging of alcohol back in the day.

01:38:54.268 --> 01:38:56.748
It's where they got a substantial amount of their wealth.

01:38:57.448 --> 01:39:02.468
But it was always instilled in them to do something.

01:39:02.648 --> 01:39:06.788
And I think that's why when President Kennedy gave his inaugural address,

01:39:06.988 --> 01:39:11.528
and he said, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.

01:39:11.528 --> 01:39:18.328
That was instilled in them as a family, that a country that gave them an opportunity

01:39:18.328 --> 01:39:25.908
to be wealthy, the least they could do was to give service, whether that was in the military,

01:39:26.648 --> 01:39:28.128
whether it was in politics,

01:39:29.088 --> 01:39:30.488
nonprofits, whatever.

01:39:31.428 --> 01:39:42.248
And as flawed as any human being can be, despite all that, they exemplify that. They've done that.

01:39:43.488 --> 01:39:46.828
We can't say that about the Trump family.

01:39:47.868 --> 01:39:54.768
And that's the difference. When you hear me say the phrase, we are not doing

01:39:54.768 --> 01:39:58.648
capitalism right in America, that's what I'm talking about, right?

01:39:59.228 --> 01:40:03.408
There's nothing wrong with people making money. There's nothing wrong with people

01:40:03.408 --> 01:40:06.308
becoming wealthy and successful in business.

01:40:06.748 --> 01:40:08.528
There is a problem with greed.

01:40:09.008 --> 01:40:14.748
There is a problem with hoarding. There's a problem with not being empathetic.

01:40:14.748 --> 01:40:21.648
There's a problem with not being sympathetic. There's a problem with discriminating, right? Right?

01:40:23.537 --> 01:40:31.697
I mean, we understand that levels of wealth creates levels of access. We get that.

01:40:33.017 --> 01:40:36.717
And there's some people that, hey, be nice.

01:40:38.017 --> 01:40:46.757
I was a member of a club, per se, at one time in my life, and it has perks.

01:40:47.377 --> 01:40:53.437
But it's not my definition of life. It's an experience of life.

01:40:53.537 --> 01:40:55.117
But it's not a definition.

01:40:55.877 --> 01:41:03.437
You know, my status is not me. What I have access to, it's not me.

01:41:03.977 --> 01:41:07.437
And so when I had that status, I still was Erik.

01:41:07.717 --> 01:41:13.077
And maybe to my detriment, I was, but I am who I am.

01:41:13.537 --> 01:41:17.777
And I still believe that people, when they need help, should get it.

01:41:18.157 --> 01:41:22.737
I believe that if you have the capacity and the heart to serve,

01:41:22.737 --> 01:41:29.817
you should serve and give back to a nation that is giving you everything.

01:41:30.637 --> 01:41:36.737
You know, so it shouldn't matter if you're the richest person in the world or

01:41:36.737 --> 01:41:38.117
you're the poorest person in the world.

01:41:38.657 --> 01:41:43.277
If you have a heart to give, if you have a heart to serve, then you should do that.

01:41:45.277 --> 01:41:52.457
And, you know, I mean, you don't have to give up everything because there is

01:41:52.457 --> 01:41:57.837
a need to have self-preservation, whether you're the richest or the poorest

01:41:57.837 --> 01:41:59.477
person. But at the same time.

01:42:01.086 --> 01:42:07.186
You got, you can't take it with you. And you know, I know there was ancient

01:42:07.186 --> 01:42:11.166
cultures, and that's why the pyramids were built, so the pharaohs could have

01:42:11.166 --> 01:42:15.106
all the stuff that they have and travel with the afterlife.

01:42:15.406 --> 01:42:17.386
Yeah, that's not how that works.

01:42:18.266 --> 01:42:25.726
You know, whatever wealth you had will be distributed amongst your heirs,

01:42:25.766 --> 01:42:30.066
or if you're not protected, be distributed to the state.

01:42:31.306 --> 01:42:35.146
Right. That's the reality of life. You can't take any of this with you.

01:42:36.026 --> 01:42:40.446
Even if Elon Musk manages to become a trillionaire, he can't take a trillion

01:42:40.446 --> 01:42:43.266
dollars into heaven or hell wherever he's going. Right.

01:42:44.746 --> 01:42:56.246
And so, you know, that means that what's more valuable is what you offer. Right.

01:42:57.426 --> 01:43:04.946
What service did you provide? what did you give to help your fellow man?

01:43:06.106 --> 01:43:08.906
And even if it's limited, right?

01:43:09.386 --> 01:43:15.666
You know, we were talking about some people being upset about gifts they got at Christmas.

01:43:16.266 --> 01:43:21.066
And, you know, my attitude is like, you know, it's the thought that counts,

01:43:21.666 --> 01:43:22.726
right? It's about gratitude.

01:43:23.746 --> 01:43:26.006
I'll never forget, I was dating a girl.

01:43:28.546 --> 01:43:36.126
And there's two sides to this story, but I was dating a girl and she fixed me

01:43:36.126 --> 01:43:42.486
breakfast and she burnt the food. I think she burnt the toast or whatever.

01:43:43.826 --> 01:43:47.726
And I was not happy about that. I was like, it's burnt, I can't eat that.

01:43:48.526 --> 01:43:53.986
And so my best friend, he kind of overheard me say that and he was admonishing

01:43:53.986 --> 01:44:02.926
me about, not being grateful because she could have not even cared enough to even fix me anything.

01:44:04.489 --> 01:44:09.569
And I had to tell him, I said, I understand where you're coming from.

01:44:10.549 --> 01:44:13.369
I said, but you're white and I'm black.

01:44:14.549 --> 01:44:18.209
So let me tell you what that means to me, right?

01:44:18.889 --> 01:44:24.529
As a black person, we should be grateful for the fact that we have been able

01:44:24.529 --> 01:44:29.409
to have our rights evolve in this nation.

01:44:29.409 --> 01:44:36.009
We have come from being people kidnapped from our native land and being enslaved

01:44:36.009 --> 01:44:43.649
in another to being in positions where we could have any job in society we want,

01:44:43.729 --> 01:44:47.449
whether we want to be a million dollar athlete, a lawyer, a doctor,

01:44:48.389 --> 01:44:51.989
hell, even president of the United States or a Supreme Court justice.

01:44:51.989 --> 01:44:57.889
We've done all of this stuff within the span of 400 years, right?

01:44:58.909 --> 01:45:08.869
Educators and welders and, you know, farmers and not just, you know, farmers for our thing.

01:45:09.009 --> 01:45:16.109
But, I mean, we're like, you can find black people in the whole journey from farm to table, right?

01:45:16.529 --> 01:45:19.909
So we've evolved in that sense.

01:45:22.169 --> 01:45:27.349
But we have to be careful about our gratefulness.

01:45:27.929 --> 01:45:32.589
And so I told him it's like, you know, white folks give us stuff.

01:45:33.889 --> 01:45:39.409
And, you know, in some cases, we've been able to take the scraps that you gave

01:45:39.409 --> 01:45:43.569
us and make it a full course meal, right? Right.

01:45:44.729 --> 01:45:51.769
And there's other times you've given us something and it has no bearing on us

01:45:51.769 --> 01:45:55.429
moving forward as a people, moving forward as a nation, even.

01:45:56.909 --> 01:46:04.549
And so, you know, it's all right. And I should acknowledge the fact that she made me the toast.

01:46:05.269 --> 01:46:09.669
But I have the right to be displeased that it's not edible.

01:46:10.489 --> 01:46:12.369
You know, the act should be commended.

01:46:13.729 --> 01:46:17.989
But the end result is I still didn't have anything to eat, right?

01:46:18.769 --> 01:46:24.869
And you can take that either way you want to, but my position is that if you're

01:46:24.869 --> 01:46:30.509
going to give, if you're going to be of service, then it has to be productive.

01:46:30.509 --> 01:46:35.749
It can't be performative. It can't be hollow, right?

01:46:36.429 --> 01:46:41.729
And so when I look at what the Kennedys did and what they're still doing,

01:46:41.729 --> 01:46:46.909
It's like they're trying to do something to uplift people, right?

01:46:47.269 --> 01:46:54.309
Whether it's creating affirmative action or eliminating poverty or the Special

01:46:54.309 --> 01:46:58.329
Olympics or anything else that they've been involved in, right?

01:46:58.689 --> 01:47:05.109
The Kennedy Center to uplift the arts in America. Those things are beneficial to humans.

01:47:05.509 --> 01:47:08.709
They're beneficial to the nation. They're beneficial to society.

01:47:10.386 --> 01:47:14.266
If you just want to be president just because you can put that on your resume

01:47:14.266 --> 01:47:18.006
or that allows you to make more money than you were making when you were just

01:47:18.006 --> 01:47:20.746
a regular citizen, that doesn't help us,

01:47:21.486 --> 01:47:27.346
you know, and it doesn't help to have people around him that don't try to guide

01:47:27.346 --> 01:47:28.726
him in a way where he could do something.

01:47:28.726 --> 01:47:32.466
It's one thing if you help a Nicki Minaj or a Kim Kardashian,

01:47:33.086 --> 01:47:35.686
but what are you going to do to help California?

01:47:36.006 --> 01:47:41.746
What are you going to do to help Trinidad, the nation, right? There's a difference.

01:47:42.546 --> 01:47:46.586
What are you going to do about, it's one thing to get people out of jail.

01:47:46.986 --> 01:47:51.766
It's another thing to change the criminal justice system, right? Right.

01:47:52.759 --> 01:47:57.139
Have concepts of any plan you want. Concepts don't get it done.

01:47:57.579 --> 01:48:04.879
You have to have a plan of action and you have to act on your plan, right?

01:48:05.359 --> 01:48:10.679
In order for it to have any kind of impact, in order to provide the service,

01:48:10.859 --> 01:48:13.799
in order to give something to help people.

01:48:14.679 --> 01:48:20.579
If you want to bomb ISIS in Nigeria, Mr. President, you have the authority to do that.

01:48:21.239 --> 01:48:25.039
But what's the next step? How are you going to help the country in Nigeria,

01:48:25.259 --> 01:48:27.499
which is one of the wealthiest countries in the nation, by the way,

01:48:27.599 --> 01:48:30.659
in the world, by the way? But how are you going to help Nigeria?

01:48:31.519 --> 01:48:34.679
Are you going to help with some infrastructure development? Are you going to

01:48:34.679 --> 01:48:41.199
compete with China to make sure that our presence is there so that we have an ally?

01:48:41.519 --> 01:48:45.559
I mean, it's more than just performative acts.

01:48:46.579 --> 01:48:51.719
Would those Christians in Nigeria, if they felt that they were being persecuted

01:48:51.719 --> 01:48:57.919
still, even after, because you've proven that they've been persecuted by you taking action.

01:48:58.559 --> 01:49:03.779
So if they apply for a visa or apply for asylum in the United States,

01:49:03.899 --> 01:49:06.259
are you going to let them in, right?

01:49:06.699 --> 01:49:09.939
Because the Nigerian Christians are black.

01:49:10.739 --> 01:49:18.139
So are you going to let them in? All I'm saying is in this season where we talk

01:49:18.139 --> 01:49:20.919
about the greatest gift for those of us who are Christian.

01:49:21.279 --> 01:49:25.099
The greatest gift that was ever given to mankind was the birth of Jesus Christ.

01:49:25.559 --> 01:49:30.679
We celebrate that during this time of year, regardless of whether it was a pagan

01:49:30.679 --> 01:49:31.919
holiday or not initially.

01:49:32.519 --> 01:49:35.119
We've chosen this time to celebrate that gift.

01:49:35.959 --> 01:49:41.079
And so during that time, you know, it's more than just making sure that your

01:49:41.079 --> 01:49:47.519
child has the latest Xbox or PS5 or PlayStation, whatever number they are on now.

01:49:48.039 --> 01:49:52.119
It's about teaching why gift giving is important.

01:49:53.983 --> 01:50:00.003
Kwanzaa season now, so Habari Gani to everybody. It's about celebrating the

01:50:00.003 --> 01:50:01.583
first fruits of the harvest.

01:50:02.123 --> 01:50:07.163
It's about respecting the ancestors. It's about teaching the community the values

01:50:07.163 --> 01:50:10.343
you need to build a stronger community, right?

01:50:10.983 --> 01:50:13.223
It's not about anything else.

01:50:14.303 --> 01:50:19.783
I don't have time to enumerate all of the criticisms, but you see where I'm going.

01:50:20.423 --> 01:50:28.483
So I'm hoping that as 2026 approaches, that all of us, regardless if you're

01:50:28.483 --> 01:50:34.443
Black or not, all of us go into this mindset of what can I give?

01:50:35.043 --> 01:50:39.623
How can I better serve my people and my nation?

01:50:40.503 --> 01:50:42.763
And since this is a political show.

01:50:44.252 --> 01:50:49.152
Who do we vote for? Do we vote for the same type of people?

01:50:49.512 --> 01:50:53.452
Or do we vote for somebody that exposes true American leadership,

01:50:53.712 --> 01:50:56.992
which is about service and about giving, right?

01:50:57.852 --> 01:51:04.672
That's the mindset we need to go into 2026. We have to find the true servant leaders,

01:51:05.112 --> 01:51:12.892
the true Americans that really believe that this is one nation under God,

01:51:12.892 --> 01:51:18.472
that it's truly a land where all men are created equal,

01:51:19.672 --> 01:51:27.732
that we have inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

01:51:28.592 --> 01:51:32.612
Those are the people that we need to vote for. And not just this election,

01:51:32.792 --> 01:51:37.852
but from every election afterward, going forward, right?

01:51:38.572 --> 01:51:44.132
We have to set that standard. On the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of

01:51:44.132 --> 01:51:49.072
Independence being signed and sent to the king of England, where the colonists

01:51:49.072 --> 01:51:53.452
told the king, yeah, we don't want to be a part of the empire anymore.

01:51:53.452 --> 01:51:56.952
We want to set forth our own path.

01:51:57.272 --> 01:52:02.492
We want to take care of each other. We don't want to bow down to one man.

01:52:02.892 --> 01:52:07.412
We want to live our lives independent and free, right?

01:52:07.992 --> 01:52:11.732
We need to elect people who get that.

01:52:13.052 --> 01:52:17.612
Anybody else that's talking about anything else, we ain't got time for that.

01:52:19.145 --> 01:52:23.225
I have always made the case that if you just leave black folks alone, we'll be fine.

01:52:23.845 --> 01:52:27.725
You stop telling us where to go to the bathroom, what water fountain to drink

01:52:27.725 --> 01:52:33.165
out of, what part of the bus to sit on, what school we can go to, what sport we can play,

01:52:33.485 --> 01:52:40.525
what access do we have, what our credit score is, what law school we go to.

01:52:40.925 --> 01:52:46.565
If you stop restricting us, just let us live our lives, we'll be great.

01:52:46.565 --> 01:52:52.985
And I promise you, that little 13, 14% of the nation we represent is.

01:52:54.191 --> 01:53:01.031
Wonders for you. If you want to end crime in an inner city, stop putting restrictions

01:53:01.031 --> 01:53:02.511
on folks where they can't leave.

01:53:03.291 --> 01:53:12.591
You know, we literally had a promotion in this nation, which was exacerbated by a columnist.

01:53:12.611 --> 01:53:15.751
And we came up with this phrase, the manifest destiny, right?

01:53:16.911 --> 01:53:20.011
That, you know, we wanted the country to expand.

01:53:20.251 --> 01:53:26.411
We wanted the people to go out and find a place to live and thrive. We encourage that.

01:53:26.751 --> 01:53:31.951
That's why we can say in America, the beautiful from sea to shining sea,

01:53:32.111 --> 01:53:33.951
right? We encourage that.

01:53:34.351 --> 01:53:41.631
But we denied that to the Native Americans. We denied that to Black Americans after enslavement.

01:53:42.091 --> 01:53:46.951
We're trying to deny it now to anybody that wasn't born in the United States,

01:53:47.151 --> 01:53:52.211
even though there's no way this country could exist without immigrants.

01:53:53.371 --> 01:53:57.291
So we need to elect people who get the big picture.

01:53:57.911 --> 01:54:06.871
When we vote on the first Tuesday of November in 2026, that vote should be a second declaration.

01:54:07.651 --> 01:54:11.111
Not a declaration of independence, but a declaration of freedom.

01:54:11.111 --> 01:54:19.231
Is that we stand here today to choose leadership that will take America to the next level.

01:54:20.451 --> 01:54:25.831
Where we double down on our commitment, our creed, if you will,

01:54:26.751 --> 01:54:33.531
that everybody can live a life that's abundant and free, that people can really

01:54:33.531 --> 01:54:38.891
have the liberty to do what they want, love who they want, be who they want to be,

01:54:39.331 --> 01:54:44.871
and be productive in society, and to pursue what makes us happy.

01:54:46.728 --> 01:54:51.428
A house, whether it's a job, whether it's a car, whether it's a career,

01:54:52.108 --> 01:54:59.248
a college, whatever we want to pursue, we should be allowed to do that, right?

01:54:59.968 --> 01:55:04.228
Now, far be it for me to encourage people to do illegal stuff,

01:55:04.248 --> 01:55:10.868
not including that in the package, because, you know, with great power comes

01:55:10.868 --> 01:55:12.808
great responsibility, right?

01:55:13.668 --> 01:55:21.328
But we need to put people in office that demand that we finally live up to,

01:55:22.068 --> 01:55:27.988
what we expressed to an empire 250 years ago, what we wanted to be,

01:55:28.308 --> 01:55:31.368
what this nation should be about.

01:55:32.808 --> 01:55:39.508
And so people like President Trump and his sycophants can have a voice in the public square,

01:55:40.228 --> 01:55:45.948
But in order for us to move forward, we got to have people that can temper that

01:55:45.948 --> 01:55:51.708
with other voices and preferably voices of reason, right?

01:55:52.268 --> 01:55:55.508
So we can move forward and everybody can excel.

01:55:56.968 --> 01:56:00.768
That's my hope. That's my wish for 2026.

01:56:02.568 --> 01:56:07.628
So on that note, ladies and gentlemen, Happy New Year to everybody.

01:56:08.528 --> 01:56:13.248
I'm hoping that individually your 2026 will be a prosperous one.

01:56:13.548 --> 01:56:20.228
And I pray that as a nation, collectively, it'll be a prosperous one as well.

01:56:20.428 --> 01:56:23.508
And we will set a foundation for a new direction.

01:56:24.248 --> 01:56:26.528
All right. Thank you all for listening.