Historical & Cultural Healing Featuring Dr. Karlos K. Hill and Aurora Archer

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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The following program is hosted by the NbG Podcast Network.

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Music.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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So today, I'm very fortunate to have two guests who are all about healing.

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And we know that in our nation, right this minute, that is the prevailing deal.

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We need more love, more compassion, more healing, because we're not getting

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it from the White House, and I'll get into that a little later.

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But I'm really, really honored to have a young man who is doing the healing

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through teaching accurate history.

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And then I have a sister that's on that's doing healing through her podcast

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and her company, helping people in the corporate world and all that stuff,

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deal with cultural healing, dealing with how to be more in tune with the people

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that you interact with, whether it's at the job or in society, right?

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So I'm really, really glad that those folks were able to make the time.

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As you know, this is the beginning of the school year.

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And it's also the year where folks are, if you're in a company,

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whatever, you're starting to put together your budgets and all that kind of stuff.

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So for my guests to be able to take the time out, I really appreciate that.

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And I hope that you enjoy their interviews.

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Housekeeping note, still trying to get subscribers. Go to patreon.com slash a moment, Eric Fleming.

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Let's get those numbers up. The ultimate goal is 20,000. If we go over that,

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great. You know, and whatever we get, we appreciate.

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So, you know, just go ahead and do that. Always check on the website, momenterik.com.

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And, you know, to not only keep up with the episodes, if this is your first

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time listening, make sure that you can go to that website and you can get every

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episode that we've done since 2019 is on the website.

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And if you like what you're hearing, go ahead and put a review on there.

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I mean, you know, just, you know, the interaction is good. People have been emailing.

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They'll let me know that they've been listening and they appreciate it and all that.

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And they've been talking to me personally, but they're not posting it on the

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website, which is fine. I mean, you know, but the reviews and the five stars actually helped too.

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So thank you all again for listening. And I hope that this episode is another

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one that is engaging, entertaining to you.

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All right, so enough of me. It's time to go ahead and kick this episode off.

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And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Music.

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Thanks, Erik. A lone gunman, identified as a former student of the Annunciation

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Catholic School in Minneapolis, opened fire on the church during an annual all-school

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mass, killing two children and wounding 17 others before taking his own life.

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The FBI searched the home of former Trump advisor John Bolton as part of a national

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security investigation into the potential release of classified information.

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Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook sued President Donald Trump to prevent her

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firing, which Trump announced after alleging she engaged in deceitful and potential criminal conduct.

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The NAACP and the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights under law sued Texas,

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alleging its new congressional map is unconstitutional because it dilutes the

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power of black voters and other minorities.

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A federal judge ruled that Wisconsin Judge Hannah Dugan, accused of helping

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a migrant evade an immigration arrest, cannot claim immunity from criminal charges.

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A Utah judge ruled that the state must redraw its congressional map after the

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Republican-controlled legislature illegally overruled a voter-approved measure

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that created an independent redistricting commission.

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A federal judge blocked the Trump administration from withholding federal funding

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from several sanctuary jurisdictions that have refused to cooperate with the

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president's immigration policies.

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Ghislaine Maxwell told a Justice Department official that she was unaware of

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a client list belonging to Jeffrey Epstein and never witnessed inappropriate

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behavior from Donald Trump.

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President Trump signed executive orders to end no-cash bail in Washington, D.C.

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A Gambian man was sentenced to over 67 years in U.S.

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Federal prison for his role in the torture of victims in Gambia as a member

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of a unit run by former dictator Yaya Jame in 2006.

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And the Menendez brothers were denied parole for the 1989 murder of their parents.

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I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.

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And now it is time for my guest, Dr. Karlos K. Hill.

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Karlos K. Hill is a writer, speaker, and community-engaged scholar who brings

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deeper perspective to historical racism.

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Dr. Hill works with students, leaders, and communities to understand our collective

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past and heal in relation to our most traumatic history.

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Dr. Hill is Regions Professor of the Clara Looper Department of African and

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African American Studies at the University of Oklahoma.

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Dr. Hill is the author of three books, Beyond the Rope, The Impact of Lynching

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on Black Culture and Memory,

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The Murder of Emmett Till, A Graphic History, and The 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre,

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A Photographic History. Dr.

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Hill founded the Tulsa Race Massacre Oklahoma Teachers Institute to support

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teaching the history of the race massacre to thousands of middle school and

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high school students He also serves on the boards of the Freedom Center Planning Committee,

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the Clara Luper Legacy Committee, and the Board of Scholars for Facing History

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and Ourselves And is actively engaged on other community initiatives working

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toward racial justice Ladies and gentlemen,

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it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast, Dr.

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Karlos K. Hill.

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Music.

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All right, Dr. Karlos K. Hill. How are you doing, brother? You doing good?

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I am great. Thank you for asking. Well, thank you for coming on the show, brother.

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I really appreciate that. As I tell my listeners know that I have a soft spot

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for historians and educators, teachers, whatever.

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I just believe that y'all are doing the Lord's work in trying to educate the

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masses. So I greatly appreciate, especially in the field that you're going, you're, you're into.

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So I want to get into that in the interview, but I always kick off my interviews with icebreakers.

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Yes. So the first icebreaker is a quote. The history that we learn in American

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public schools does not encompass the true history of everyone that American schools teach.

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What does that quote mean to you?

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It really means that we have received a white supremacist version of history,

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one that has erased the contributions of Native peoples, the contributions of

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Black people, the contributions to a certain extent of women.

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And so when I think about the ways in which we are fighting for inclusion and not just inclusion,

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compassion for those histories so that we understand how those histories show

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up today and what we need to do in response to them, right?

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Our histories of America are

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often devoid of inclusion of those groups and compassion for those groups.

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And the reason why I say that is there is and will continue to be resistance

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to addressing those histories and how they show up today because we don't have

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a compassionate understanding.

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And because we don't have a compassionate understanding, we don't have a willingness

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to really engage with these histories authentically.

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And so that quote to me really, you know, helps me to understand,

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you know, that in our country, historically, we've had white supremacist versions of history.

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And my job today as a black studies historian in my classroom,

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outside of my classroom.

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Is to provide a different narrative and to provide a different way of understanding

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the history, not just with our brains, but with our hearts, understanding it compassionately.

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That's what our historical education is really devoid of right now. Yeah.

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All right. So my next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

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Three. How should we balance rights, freedoms, and responsibilities?

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I think we have to balance it while being really grounded in a communal ethic, right?

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And an idea that all of us matter, right?

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And when we are grounded in the idea that we all matter and that community,

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creating community is of the utmost importance.

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Rights, responsibilities, I think, flow from that, right?

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I think when we start to talk about individual rights, we often lose sight of

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collectivism and community. And so there has to be a balance.

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But I think grounding us first, right,

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in community and communalism, right, helps people sort through what are my,

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not just what are my rights, but what are my rights in relationship to community?

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What are my rights in relationship to others?

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What are my rights in relationship to marginalized people, et cetera?

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And how should I use, how should rights be used to protect them,

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not protect those groups, not just have individual rights so that I,

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you know, can have some sort of safety bubble around myself.

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And so I think for me, grounding that conversation and community and communalism

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is where I would want to take it.

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Yeah. All right. How did a young man from the Mississippi Delta end up being

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a distinguished professor at the University of Oklahoma?

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Long journey, long journey, long journey.

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But I can say in a nutshell, I had parents who were educators, who were teachers,

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who infused in me a work ethic to, you know, to do to get good grades,

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but also a curiosity about the world.

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And, you know, through, you know, my parents pushing and prodding me,

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I kind of became kind of a lifelong student, a career student.

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But I really got passion for black studies in college. I had some great mentors.

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One of them just passed away earlier this year.

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But I had some great mentors in college who really gave me a new and a deep

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understanding of history and why it mattered and why it mattered today and how

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history shows up today in the form of policies and practices,

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but also mindsets and ideologies.

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And so I had great teachers who really helped illuminate history,

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its power, its significance.

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And so from college and having great college professors, they really are the

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people responsible for pushing me, tilting me towards graduate school and getting me involved.

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Connected to other professors in graduate school who could really help to elevate me.

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You know, I am because of my mentors, not just because, you know,

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some sort of individual talent or ability.

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You know, I show up the way I show up because I've been mentored and molded

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and shaped by those people.

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And so I would say the mentorship that I've received is why I've become a team.

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And if I am distinguished, that's why I've become distinguished.

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I have been taught by a long line of distinguished historians and scholars.

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Yeah. You know, I don't know if you had a chance to do any background on me,

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but I lived in Mississippi for 34 years.

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I attended. I went there to go to Jackson State and ended up staying there for a minute.

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My dad was actually born in Mississippi. He was born in Marks.

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And then he, I guess him and his sister left when they were like two and well,

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she was three then and he was two.

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So, and they ended up in, in, in Illinois.

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And so that's how I ended up being born in Chicago. Yeah.

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So, yeah, I, I, you know, anytime I can try to find a Mississippi connection,

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I'm going to do it. Right.

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So speaking about Mississippi Connections, the three books that you have written

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focus on the horrors of racism in America.

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Why did you decide to hone in on that aspect of American history?

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And why do you feel that it's important to present those stories?

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Yeah, I can't say that this is something that I knew that I wanted to study,

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knew that I wanted to write about when I became a historian.

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It was a gradual progression, me arriving at this place of focusing in on the

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history of lynching, racial violence, race massacres. It was a an evolution.

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But I would say the most important thing, again, is mentorship.

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My my advisor in graduate school, Sundiata Chajua, is a historian,

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a distinguished historian of lynching and racial violence.

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And in my first years of working with him, I threw myself into his research,

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researching lynchings across the country.

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And I did that work with him for him for two to three years. And when you...

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Reading about, studying, and researching the history of lynching and racial

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violence, for me, it was deeply emotional.

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It really troubled my spirit and my soul researching these stories of how Black

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people's lives were upended by lynchings,

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how Black bodies were desecrated in the public square for alleged crimes,

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not actual crimes, for alleged crimes.

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And so that really tormented my spirit and weighed heavily on me.

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And so I had to deal with that. I had to work through that.

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And ultimately working through all of that is what produced me as a scholar

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of lynching and racial violence.

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It was such an emotional impact that doing that early research had on me.

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It created so many questions. It created so many curiosities that by year four,

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I asked my advisor, Sundiata Chajua.

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Would it be possible for me to, you know, take a little piece of your research

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and make it mine and write about it?

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And he was, of course, enthused and excited that I would have that interest

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and want to follow that interest.

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And so it really began as a graduate researcher with my advisor,

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the emotional experiences that I had with the research and ultimately wanting

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to understand and be more compassionate to these histories that I was reading about.

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Ultimately, becoming a professional historian.

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My goal has been to really help other people build a relationship with the black

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past in the same way that I have. Right. My goal.

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My journey as a black studies historian has been very emotional,

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like getting deeply enmeshed in these stories,

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caring about the not just the stories and the history, but the people connected

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to those histories and how those histories show up today.

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That's where my heart went in those early days.

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And that's where my heart still is today. But the way

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in which I talk about it today and why I

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do it today and why I think it's important is what I truly have taken away from

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the study of the history of lynching and racial violence is the indifference

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that white people and white society have had to black people and black bodies.

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Particularly lynch victims.

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And so the work that I try to do, particularly in the classroom,

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but also when I get a chance to

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speak publicly, is to bear witness to the sacred nature of black people,

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black lives, especially lynch victims, and to elevate the memory of those victims

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in a way that we can approach them as sacred,

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understand them as sacred.

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And so that's number one. I try to bear witness to victims, survivors,

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and descendants of American lynching, of American slavery.

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And in doing so, I try to pierce that indifference,

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that default indifference often to Black people and definitely stories of Black

00:20:55.987 --> 00:20:59.807
racial violence against Black people.

00:20:59.807 --> 00:21:06.327
And so, you know, I'm a historian committed to bearing witness to Black people,

00:21:06.647 --> 00:21:09.927
Black people's stories, especially those involving oppression,

00:21:09.927 --> 00:21:15.147
so that we can counter, so that we can disrupt, so that we can replace that

00:21:15.147 --> 00:21:16.547
indifference with compassion.

00:21:17.027 --> 00:21:22.727
Replacing it with compassion, I believe, is the most effective way of activating

00:21:22.727 --> 00:21:26.467
people to do something about how those histories show up today.

00:21:26.467 --> 00:21:33.127
And so ultimately, my message in relationship to the history of lynching and

00:21:33.127 --> 00:21:37.787
history of slavery is how we need to heal in relationship to it.

00:21:37.947 --> 00:21:42.867
And I believe that healing is a process. It's not a transaction.

00:21:42.867 --> 00:21:49.447
It's not saying I'm sorry. It's really learning, understanding and caring about

00:21:49.447 --> 00:21:52.147
our relationship to these histories.

00:21:52.407 --> 00:21:55.947
And we don't have to be black. We don't have to be white to have a relationship

00:21:55.947 --> 00:22:00.307
to the history of slavery or the history of lynching. We just have to care about it.

00:22:00.547 --> 00:22:02.807
And so I teach from that place.

00:22:03.498 --> 00:22:08.038
Of bearing witness and then from bearing witness,

00:22:08.218 --> 00:22:14.018
helping people learn that they too can bear witness if they're sufficiently

00:22:14.018 --> 00:22:21.078
compassionate, if they are sufficiently grounded, not just in knowing, but in caring.

00:22:21.518 --> 00:22:28.098
And so for all those reasons, you know, my work, because of where I began in

00:22:28.098 --> 00:22:35.358
this deep space of emotional distress and in all these feelings of anger, rage, resentment.

00:22:36.258 --> 00:22:40.018
Deciding that that's not the relationship that I wanted even.

00:22:40.298 --> 00:22:44.118
And so how can I, as a historian doing this work, have a healing relationship?

00:22:44.358 --> 00:22:50.398
How can I teach students and public to have a healing relationship with our

00:22:50.398 --> 00:22:55.078
most traumatic past, slavery and the history of lynching and racial violence.

00:22:55.278 --> 00:23:02.738
And so I teach history from a place of trying to transform people, not educate them.

00:23:03.338 --> 00:23:12.038
And, you know, that sort of approach is something that I didn't just learn by myself.

00:23:12.258 --> 00:23:19.618
Again, this is an approach that is, you know, taken from my many mentors over

00:23:19.618 --> 00:23:22.318
the years and turned it into my own.

00:23:22.758 --> 00:23:27.038
But that's what I think is at stake in talking about the Black past.

00:23:27.318 --> 00:23:31.378
It's not just that it happened. It's not just that it shows up today.

00:23:31.618 --> 00:23:37.238
It's because it shows up today, what are we going to do to address it?

00:23:37.438 --> 00:23:42.938
And the language for me to talk about that is healing history. Yeah.

00:23:43.678 --> 00:23:48.518
All right. So are you familiar with Jillian Michaels and the comments she made on CNN.

00:23:49.218 --> 00:23:53.818
I saw a little bit of an excerpt, but, but tell me your thoughts on this.

00:23:53.978 --> 00:24:01.458
Well, you know, she, she got on the show and, and I forget exactly what they were talking about.

00:24:01.578 --> 00:24:04.598
I think they were talking about the museums and there was a question I was going

00:24:04.598 --> 00:24:09.698
to get to on the museums, but she said, you know, she was trying to make it

00:24:09.698 --> 00:24:15.958
a point that, you know, only 2% of white people, you know, owned slaves.

00:24:16.278 --> 00:24:21.138
And, you know, it was, you know, just to put the onus on white people.

00:24:21.278 --> 00:24:28.398
She kind of felt that history was trying to make white people villains, right?

00:24:28.558 --> 00:24:32.578
And she was very uncomfortable with that. And of course, the black folks on

00:24:32.578 --> 00:24:34.698
the panel were very uncomfortable with her saying that.

00:24:35.618 --> 00:24:40.018
So my question to you is, if Jillian Michaels was a student of yours,

00:24:40.178 --> 00:24:42.858
right? She said that in your class.

00:24:43.576 --> 00:24:47.176
Would that inspire you? Would that deflate you?

00:24:47.376 --> 00:24:53.356
How would you react to that before you went in to try to address her misconceptions?

00:24:54.556 --> 00:25:00.116
Yeah, I mean, I'm at the beginning of the semester right now at the University

00:25:00.116 --> 00:25:03.496
of Oklahoma teaching Introduction to Black Studies.

00:25:04.536 --> 00:25:07.836
And, you know, today and in a couple hours,

00:25:08.156 --> 00:25:14.376
I'm going to have a conversation with my students about not about black history, black studies,

00:25:14.676 --> 00:25:22.816
but getting us grounded in how we need to talk, how we need to develop a norms

00:25:22.816 --> 00:25:27.056
and an ethic for talking about black history, black studies.

00:25:27.556 --> 00:25:34.556
And so I think for me, I do a lot of work trying to ground the students,

00:25:34.796 --> 00:25:38.616
not in just sharing what they know or sharing what they think,

00:25:38.836 --> 00:25:44.176
but get them grounded in a kind of communal ethic of sharing with empathy,

00:25:44.356 --> 00:25:46.056
with compassion. Right.

00:25:46.236 --> 00:25:51.936
And so I think in the before we can really launch into a conversation,

00:25:51.936 --> 00:25:56.856
we have to ground ourselves in the principles and the ethos that we're trying

00:25:56.856 --> 00:25:58.776
to establish in having that conversation.

00:25:59.196 --> 00:26:04.656
And so I I typically don't have those kinds of encounters with students because

00:26:04.656 --> 00:26:09.876
we've done so much preparatory work building up to talking about those difficult

00:26:09.876 --> 00:26:11.256
histories like slavery.

00:26:11.256 --> 00:26:18.476
But if she if if after all the grounding that we do and I and I ground students

00:26:18.476 --> 00:26:21.576
in African philosophy, I'm a black studies historian.

00:26:21.696 --> 00:26:26.556
I ground them in African philosophy. I ground them in the in the South African

00:26:26.556 --> 00:26:30.976
philosophy, which is a continental African philosophy of Ubuntu.

00:26:31.910 --> 00:26:46.590
Ubuntu is a Zulu phrase, South African Zulu Hosa phrase, that means literally, I am only because we are.

00:26:46.770 --> 00:26:55.370
I am only because we are. And so I ground our conversations in that principle.

00:26:55.850 --> 00:27:03.170
That principle is a principle of interconnectedness, interdependence, and compassion, right?

00:27:03.850 --> 00:27:10.770
Ubuntu ultimately means a person is a person through other people.

00:27:10.770 --> 00:27:14.490
You can't be a person all by yourself.

00:27:14.990 --> 00:27:21.130
And our humanity as people is expressed not just because of our biology,

00:27:21.710 --> 00:27:27.910
it's our humanity is ultimately expressed in how we show up and treat others

00:27:27.910 --> 00:27:30.330
with compassion, right?

00:27:30.330 --> 00:27:36.690
And so you can only be truly human through being humane to others. That is Ubuntu.

00:27:37.150 --> 00:27:45.330
And so when you lay out an Ubuntu dialogical framework for talking about the

00:27:45.330 --> 00:27:50.610
black past rooted in that ethos, you tend not to get those kinds of comments.

00:27:51.930 --> 00:27:54.910
But but if but let's say if

00:27:54.910 --> 00:27:57.930
it does happen we treat

00:27:57.930 --> 00:28:04.870
that we treat that comment with compassion i can't turn around and and sort

00:28:04.870 --> 00:28:10.850
of lash out at her or that student because they said something like that that's

00:28:10.850 --> 00:28:15.750
counter to our principles and ethics we got to treat that comment with compassion,

00:28:15.870 --> 00:28:19.010
try to understand it without traumatizing the other student.

00:28:19.730 --> 00:28:26.970
And so what I would say is, I mean, I've had those kind of very random one-off,

00:28:27.210 --> 00:28:31.490
you know, insensitive comments happen around the issue of slavery.

00:28:31.990 --> 00:28:36.550
But because my method of teaching is not to tell the students what to think

00:28:36.550 --> 00:28:41.370
or even how to think, but to really guide them.

00:28:42.127 --> 00:28:49.167
Through dialogue, we would receive it as a class compassionately and respond

00:28:49.167 --> 00:28:52.587
to that student compassionately, pointing out.

00:28:52.767 --> 00:28:54.667
And this is where it comes.

00:28:55.287 --> 00:29:03.367
Well, don't you remember us talking about how 10 of the first 12 presidents owned slaves?

00:29:03.567 --> 00:29:09.287
So we can talk about only the two or 3% of Southerners that did,

00:29:09.507 --> 00:29:12.447
but the most important people in America owned slaves.

00:29:12.707 --> 00:29:18.847
So let's not minimize it. Let's not pretend that on the eve of the Civil War.

00:29:19.187 --> 00:29:27.467
That 50% of the American gross domestic product was wrapped up in cotton and

00:29:27.467 --> 00:29:30.007
enslaved people, right?

00:29:30.147 --> 00:29:37.227
Let's not pretend that slavery didn't exist for 250 years in our country.

00:29:37.507 --> 00:29:42.807
And in every state, there were laws on the books, even slaves that didn't have

00:29:42.807 --> 00:29:45.707
enslaved people had laws prohibiting.

00:29:45.887 --> 00:29:50.567
Slavery was central to law, culture, and economy.

00:29:50.767 --> 00:29:58.347
And that just can't be disputed. Even if we want to say Only the privileged few had owned slaves.

00:29:58.567 --> 00:30:06.267
Our economy, our society, our culture revolved around it for 250 years.

00:30:06.427 --> 00:30:11.187
And more than that, we fought a four-year civil war, the bloodiest war in American

00:30:11.187 --> 00:30:14.047
history, to bring slavery to an end.

00:30:14.147 --> 00:30:24.827
So let's not minimize it. Let's talk about it in a way that honors first and

00:30:24.827 --> 00:30:27.387
foremost enslaved people and their sacrifices.

00:30:28.807 --> 00:30:33.527
And so let's not minimize it because ultimately that's what we're talking about, right?

00:30:33.787 --> 00:30:40.307
To minimize slavery is to minimize the suffering and the oppression of black people.

00:30:40.307 --> 00:30:45.107
And that's where I just that's where that's where that's the only place that

00:30:45.107 --> 00:30:50.787
we might truly but has if there was a true minimization of black people and

00:30:50.787 --> 00:30:52.387
black suffering under slavery.

00:30:52.787 --> 00:30:56.847
But but but even then, it's going to be a compassionate conversation,

00:30:56.847 --> 00:31:01.367
because if my goal is to transform Jillian.

00:31:02.239 --> 00:31:08.599
I have to give her the same compassion that I want her to give to the history.

00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:14.839
If I don't, there's no way that she's going to hear me and there's no way that

00:31:14.839 --> 00:31:16.199
I'm going to have that transformation.

00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:23.379
So for me, those kinds of things are present opportunities in the class,

00:31:23.379 --> 00:31:27.799
not sort of, oh, my God, somebody thinks that. How could they?

00:31:28.119 --> 00:31:32.359
Well, there's an American education system responsible for it.

00:31:32.499 --> 00:31:34.619
She ain't responsible for that point of view.

00:31:35.259 --> 00:31:42.119
She's giving voice to it, but she ain't responsible for it. That is rooted in our culture.

00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:49.499
That is rooted in our relationship to slavery. And so what we need to do is

00:31:49.499 --> 00:31:52.419
to depersonalize it with her.

00:31:53.279 --> 00:32:01.819
Connect it to that strand of thought in our culture that is ashamed and embarrassed of slavery.

00:32:01.919 --> 00:32:04.059
And because of that, let's minimize it.

00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:11.139
Let's say it wasn't that bad. In fact, some enslaved people got wages for their

00:32:11.139 --> 00:32:15.419
work. And, you know, how bad could it be if there were wages involved?

00:32:15.739 --> 00:32:21.399
And they must have had some kind of choice. And like all the ways that evil

00:32:21.399 --> 00:32:28.279
and oppression can be rationalized when it's shorn of context and humanity,

00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:31.699
that's what we experience on a daily basis in America.

00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:34.359
And that's what she represents. Yeah.

00:32:34.819 --> 00:32:39.179
So in line with that, what was your reaction when you heard the Trump administration

00:32:39.179 --> 00:32:44.359
say the Smithsonian museums and exhibits should be accurate,

00:32:45.159 --> 00:32:47.239
patriotic and enlightening?

00:32:48.546 --> 00:32:55.166
It can, it's already that the, the, the, the exhibits are, I've been to the

00:32:55.166 --> 00:33:00.206
Smithsonian, the African American, the American multiple times. Right.

00:33:00.466 --> 00:33:08.766
And the, the exhibits in the, in, in both institutions, while one could argue

00:33:08.766 --> 00:33:14.106
are critical of, of past actions and no way,

00:33:14.306 --> 00:33:18.526
shape, form or fashion, are they anti-American or unpaid.

00:33:18.546 --> 00:33:24.846
Or don't ultimately talk about the redeeming qualities of America,

00:33:25.206 --> 00:33:30.666
its constitution, its pursuit of justice for all the things, right?

00:33:30.926 --> 00:33:36.586
What I really feel in relationship to those comments is erasure.

00:33:37.426 --> 00:33:39.546
Right? This isn't about patriotism.

00:33:39.726 --> 00:33:47.406
This isn't about making sure that Americans understand an authentic history of America.

00:33:47.406 --> 00:33:55.926
This is about erasing aspects of American history that not only make us uncomfortable,

00:33:55.926 --> 00:33:59.626
but force us to reckon with the past, right?

00:33:59.626 --> 00:34:07.586
When I say reckon with the past, one just glaring, one glaring,

00:34:07.686 --> 00:34:14.546
glaring way that America has not addressed the institution of slavery is repair, is restitution,

00:34:14.886 --> 00:34:22.046
is reparation for a 250 years assault on black people and black bodies.

00:34:22.046 --> 00:34:27.506
And that repair isn't just financial, right?

00:34:27.746 --> 00:34:33.266
There's psychological, there's emotional, there's health.

00:34:33.706 --> 00:34:41.506
There's all kinds of ways in which we can repair and do repair work in relationship to this history.

00:34:41.506 --> 00:34:44.866
Financial repair is important,

00:34:44.866 --> 00:34:52.006
particularly when the latest estimates that I have seen related to the global

00:34:52.006 --> 00:34:56.906
slave trade amount to 20 trillion dollars to repair.

00:34:57.506 --> 00:35:03.606
Right. The the the the the liquidation of black wealth or excuse me,

00:35:03.706 --> 00:35:07.166
the capturing of black wealth under slavery. Right.

00:35:07.326 --> 00:35:12.866
That black people experience no benefit from when you when you understand the

00:35:12.866 --> 00:35:18.406
scale and the magnitude of a 500 year, you know, global slave trade.

00:35:19.106 --> 00:35:23.326
And when you understand how it depopulated Africa.

00:35:23.966 --> 00:35:29.526
And how how how it took from Africa its most critical resource, its people. Right.

00:35:30.227 --> 00:35:36.167
You begin to you and you begin to realize that it's not just,

00:35:36.167 --> 00:35:40.627
you know, freeing enslaved people, whether they're in the United States,

00:35:40.707 --> 00:35:42.427
Brazil or else or the Caribbean.

00:35:43.087 --> 00:35:49.067
Right. It's really about making those individuals whole, given all that they lost.

00:35:49.207 --> 00:35:54.687
We are still trying to recover what was lost from that 250 years,

00:35:54.687 --> 00:36:00.007
actually 500 year process, beginning with the Portuguese in the 16th century.

00:36:00.227 --> 00:36:05.087
Or 15th century with the Portuguese action. They were the first to truly,

00:36:05.087 --> 00:36:12.187
they inaugurated the transatlantic slave trade and sent millions of our people, African people,

00:36:12.427 --> 00:36:16.147
into bondage more than any other colonial power.

00:36:16.527 --> 00:36:23.407
It took Portuguese the longest to get, to undo or to eradicate or to abolish slavery.

00:36:23.707 --> 00:36:28.707
And so the debt is something that we are very,

00:36:28.707 --> 00:36:32.247
very very very uncomfortable with because

00:36:32.247 --> 00:36:35.247
it comes with implications for today how we

00:36:35.247 --> 00:36:38.227
need to show up today to combat

00:36:38.227 --> 00:36:45.287
that history that's why president trump donald trump doesn't want slavery or

00:36:45.287 --> 00:36:53.527
crit or critical takes on slavery included in in museums you know it forces

00:36:53.527 --> 00:36:56.427
a reckoning yeah All right.

00:36:56.567 --> 00:37:01.187
So I got one more question that I guess would, I don't know.

00:37:01.867 --> 00:37:06.647
Not a positive tone, but I want to hear your take on it.

00:37:06.747 --> 00:37:09.807
And then I'm going to get to something positive that you're doing.

00:37:10.747 --> 00:37:15.307
As an educator in Oklahoma, what are your thoughts on Ryan Walters?

00:37:18.527 --> 00:37:28.947
My goodness. Ryan Walters is the superintendent of education for public schools in Oklahoma.

00:37:28.947 --> 00:37:33.367
And, you know, he since he's,

00:37:33.507 --> 00:37:38.107
you know, I want to say 2021 been in that role,

00:37:38.127 --> 00:37:48.267
he's done everything in his power to essentially erase difficult racial histories

00:37:48.267 --> 00:37:51.207
from from the curriculum. Right.

00:37:51.687 --> 00:37:58.787
And not only that, try to replace those difficult histories with one that sanitize

00:37:58.787 --> 00:38:02.487
slavery, the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre.

00:38:02.487 --> 00:38:12.167
I just wrote an op-ed about PragerU, this conservative company that creates

00:38:12.167 --> 00:38:15.207
educational, you can maybe call them educational,

00:38:15.567 --> 00:38:19.147
videos about American history.

00:38:19.147 --> 00:38:23.667
These videos, short videos, animated videos,

00:38:24.047 --> 00:38:34.287
essentially minimize slavery and most controversially suggest that slavery was

00:38:34.287 --> 00:38:37.407
OK because had black people not accepted it,

00:38:37.747 --> 00:38:43.507
genocide would have been in order or genocide would have been the ultimate effect.

00:38:43.507 --> 00:38:50.027
And so the choice, these videos present American slavery as a choice between

00:38:50.027 --> 00:38:54.947
oppression and genocide, right? And so...

00:38:55.920 --> 00:39:05.860
And no free people, no conscious people can accept that as a framing of their history, right?

00:39:05.980 --> 00:39:09.080
No logic, like, that just doesn't make sense.

00:39:09.660 --> 00:39:13.540
And so Ryan Walter, similar to Donald Trump,

00:39:13.860 --> 00:39:20.900
has been leading an effort in Oklahoma to eradicate the kinds of histories that

00:39:20.900 --> 00:39:25.100
I want to talk about, the kinds of histories that I want to bring us closer to.

00:39:25.100 --> 00:39:30.020
Like the main premise for

00:39:30.020 --> 00:39:40.360
Trump or Walters is talking about difficult or even divisive histories are counter

00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:46.740
to patriotism or counter to building an American community. Right.

00:39:47.340 --> 00:39:55.800
I argue that they are essential discussing, debating, but more than that,

00:39:56.480 --> 00:40:01.680
building a relationship, understanding why we care about these histories in

00:40:01.680 --> 00:40:03.880
the first place in our relationship to them,

00:40:04.040 --> 00:40:12.380
our personal and collective relationship to them is how we begin the healing process. Right.

00:40:12.520 --> 00:40:17.640
And I know when people hear healing, they think it's all murky and it's and

00:40:17.640 --> 00:40:20.140
it's about singing Kumbaya together.

00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:25.680
Healing truly is really about the acknowledgement and recognition of what the

00:40:25.680 --> 00:40:31.780
history has done to us and how it shows up today and what we're going to do

00:40:31.780 --> 00:40:34.980
about it in the present and how we're going to work.

00:40:34.980 --> 00:40:40.400
The key is, and this is where Ubuntu comes in, how are we going to work together

00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:42.960
because we can't get there by ourselves?

00:40:43.860 --> 00:40:47.200
If we could have, black people would have gotten there. We would have gotten there.

00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:52.160
If we could have gotten there by ourselves, we can't get there by ourselves.

00:40:53.201 --> 00:40:59.301
Right. Ubuntu teaches us that we are interconnected and we are interdependent. Right.

00:40:59.741 --> 00:41:08.161
And so healing is a collective process that takes all of us because we are all a part of this history.

00:41:08.501 --> 00:41:13.021
They are afraid of that conversation because what it would mean for our politic,

00:41:13.381 --> 00:41:16.641
what it would mean for how we would relate to each other, what it would mean

00:41:16.641 --> 00:41:21.441
for how we would create new, not only new policies, but new politics.

00:41:21.441 --> 00:41:28.241
And so this is ultimately about power and the power of repressing this history.

00:41:29.261 --> 00:41:38.681
How does that create power? Well, in getting people upset and angry about them

00:41:38.681 --> 00:41:42.441
having to even learn about these histories, that builds power.

00:41:43.501 --> 00:41:47.781
Telling people that black people truly had it all right under slavery.

00:41:48.361 --> 00:41:53.821
And what are we really complaining about here? It was just so few people who owned slaves.

00:41:54.221 --> 00:41:59.361
What are we really talking about? We're just mad about that.

00:41:59.801 --> 00:42:09.541
And so all those moves are to minimize and to create power and to insulate from

00:42:09.541 --> 00:42:14.121
us from any conversation about reckoning with that past, how it shows up today.

00:42:14.121 --> 00:42:20.081
And so I think Ryan Walters, as Oklahoma superintendent,

00:42:20.801 --> 00:42:26.301
has tried to more so than Donald Trump to erase our past and to and to create

00:42:26.301 --> 00:42:35.681
a situation where we we understand the black past in particular as something that's marginal,

00:42:36.061 --> 00:42:41.041
as something that, you know, something that we really if we talk about it,

00:42:41.141 --> 00:42:43.481
we need to talk about it in ways that.

00:42:44.121 --> 00:42:48.521
That don't bring these issues to the fore. And we've seen that.

00:42:48.661 --> 00:42:53.681
We're experiencing that across Oklahoma, whether it's these videos that I mentioned

00:42:53.681 --> 00:43:00.321
regarding PragerU and or the kind of book bans that have happened in relationship

00:43:00.321 --> 00:43:02.321
to Black literature, Black authors.

00:43:02.721 --> 00:43:05.121
Even Frederick Douglas' book is banned in Oklahoma.

00:43:06.141 --> 00:43:10.941
So whether it's book bans, whether it's educational videos, Those are where there is,

00:43:11.181 --> 00:43:16.361
you know, I don't want to go into this too deep, but HB 1775 that seeks to curtail

00:43:16.361 --> 00:43:22.681
how racial topics are taught in classrooms across Oklahoma and all those ways.

00:43:22.681 --> 00:43:28.201
Ryan Walters has been at the center of that and been a major proponent of that.

00:43:29.001 --> 00:43:38.761
And, you know, the only the only thing that has protected myself and other academics

00:43:38.761 --> 00:43:41.321
in Oklahoma is that, you know.

00:43:42.678 --> 00:43:48.638
For the most part, the governor and Ryan Walters has left universities and colleges

00:43:48.638 --> 00:43:51.158
alone because of academic freedom.

00:43:51.558 --> 00:43:57.218
But outside of that, there is a lot of pressure on our universities and colleges

00:43:57.218 --> 00:44:03.578
to kowtow to the same things that are happening in K-12 institutions.

00:44:04.238 --> 00:44:08.198
Yeah. And that's what I was thinking, too. You know, it's like because you you're

00:44:08.198 --> 00:44:16.038
at a state school and and he's sending basically sending these kids.

00:44:16.218 --> 00:44:18.098
Most of them are going to go to the state school.

00:44:18.738 --> 00:44:23.458
So, you know, I just wanted to get your take on it, man, because it's like,

00:44:23.558 --> 00:44:29.358
you know, I know if I was a professor and I'm at the University of Oklahoma

00:44:29.358 --> 00:44:31.078
and I'm watching what this dude is doing.

00:44:31.078 --> 00:44:34.218
And I'm like, especially if I'm a history teacher, I'm like going,

00:44:34.498 --> 00:44:36.598
oh, my God, what are these freshmen?

00:44:37.338 --> 00:44:41.218
What am I going to experience, especially intro classes? You know what I'm saying?

00:44:41.578 --> 00:44:45.158
So I just wanted to get your take on that. But let's go ahead and close this

00:44:45.158 --> 00:44:46.178
out with something positive.

00:44:46.458 --> 00:44:51.598
Talk about your work at the Tulsa Race Massacre Oklahoma Teachers Institute

00:44:51.598 --> 00:44:55.178
and what impact you have seen since its inception.

00:44:55.898 --> 00:45:01.698
Well, I would just state, just so that the audience has context,

00:45:02.038 --> 00:45:06.998
that I am a historian of the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre.

00:45:07.298 --> 00:45:13.498
I try to bear witness to victims of virus and descendants of that massacre.

00:45:13.498 --> 00:45:18.858
I try to elevate how society not only understands the massacre,

00:45:19.018 --> 00:45:26.778
but understands their lives in relationship to that sort of took me that that

00:45:26.778 --> 00:45:29.758
that sort of commitment has taken me a lot of different places.

00:45:29.758 --> 00:45:36.098
But in Tulsa, the way in which I thought I could be of service to the community

00:45:36.098 --> 00:45:42.558
was creating a Tulsa Race Massacre Centennial Institute that occurred across

00:45:42.558 --> 00:45:44.578
three years, three summers,

00:45:45.178 --> 00:45:47.978
2018, 2019, 2020, and 2021.

00:45:47.978 --> 00:45:55.798
And we taught, you know, in that time or we taught or we facilitated conversations

00:45:55.798 --> 00:46:01.658
with, you know, dozens of teachers from Tulsa and across Oklahoma,

00:46:02.138 --> 00:46:08.478
not just about how to teach the race massacring ways that are accurate, but.

00:46:08.956 --> 00:46:14.896
But how do we teach the race massacre in a way that it hadn't been taught for

00:46:14.896 --> 00:46:20.256
100 years, teach it as a massacre rather than a riot?

00:46:20.816 --> 00:46:25.176
And so my main job was narrative change.

00:46:25.776 --> 00:46:32.256
That was the main impact of my work in the Institute was narrative change within

00:46:32.256 --> 00:46:36.176
Tulsa public schools because the Institute was based in Tulsa.

00:46:36.176 --> 00:46:43.216
And in creating narrative change, that it was actually a massacre rather than a riot,

00:46:43.516 --> 00:46:50.576
the responsibility and the culpability of it was shifted to city and to citizens

00:46:50.576 --> 00:46:52.636
versus the Black community.

00:46:52.636 --> 00:46:59.756
As long as it was understood as a riot, the Black community of Greenwood had

00:46:59.756 --> 00:47:01.996
been blamed for what had happened to them.

00:47:02.756 --> 00:47:10.016
And so the work that we did in the institute was to shift that narrative and

00:47:10.016 --> 00:47:17.636
in shifting that narrative from riot to massacre, also shift compassion, right?

00:47:17.796 --> 00:47:23.056
As long as black people were the responsible, there was not only indifference

00:47:23.056 --> 00:47:26.216
to the suffering, there was hostility to the community.

00:47:26.216 --> 00:47:35.656
And so I engaged in narrative change in that institute in order to bring a more

00:47:35.656 --> 00:47:41.076
victim survivor and descendant centered understanding of it,

00:47:41.396 --> 00:47:44.776
not just because that's what really happened, a massacre,

00:47:45.176 --> 00:47:51.916
but so that we could address how the history shows up today in Greenwood.

00:47:52.860 --> 00:47:58.560
And, you know, positioning teachers in that institute to understand that it

00:47:58.560 --> 00:48:02.280
was a massacre, to understand that they needed to send their victim survivors

00:48:02.280 --> 00:48:04.060
and descendants in the telling of the story.

00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:08.380
And when you center them, these are the issues that emerge.

00:48:08.780 --> 00:48:16.740
These are the concerns that one maybe ought to have in relationship to this history.

00:48:16.740 --> 00:48:25.120
And so teaching or facilitating conversations that really brought the race massacre

00:48:25.120 --> 00:48:31.180
to teachers in a way that they could relate to, that they could get proximate with, and in turn.

00:48:31.740 --> 00:48:38.920
Share those same lessons and ethos with students was the goal of the Institute.

00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:47.180
And so it's the best work that I've ever been a part of because of the impact

00:48:47.180 --> 00:48:49.240
and the change that it seeded.

00:48:49.240 --> 00:48:57.620
I will always say to anybody who asks me that I was remade and reborn as a Black

00:48:57.620 --> 00:49:03.000
Studies historian in Greenwood because of the gravity of the history and the

00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:07.440
gravity of reckoning with it and the stakes involved,

00:49:07.740 --> 00:49:09.960
right, for that community.

00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:18.700
I'm so proud that I stand today with descendants of that massacre doing work

00:49:18.700 --> 00:49:22.820
with them to address how that history shows up today.

00:49:23.100 --> 00:49:29.100
Like the most proud thing that I can say is I'm in service to descendants who

00:49:29.100 --> 00:49:35.160
are trying today to get justice for their families, for their ancestors.

00:49:35.160 --> 00:49:41.640
Like that's my most as a as a black studies historian working alongside and

00:49:41.640 --> 00:49:47.260
with community, seeing what we have been able to do to to.

00:49:48.341 --> 00:49:54.461
To create a new narrative, to create narrative change around a massacre that

00:49:54.461 --> 00:49:59.201
happened a hundred years and to see today what has happened,

00:49:59.361 --> 00:50:01.281
what has even flourished because of that.

00:50:01.741 --> 00:50:06.961
We have Greenwood Rising, state of the art history museum that tells that story

00:50:06.961 --> 00:50:13.241
of a victim survivor descendant story that ultimately millions of people will

00:50:13.241 --> 00:50:15.301
visit and be impacted by.

00:50:15.701 --> 00:50:21.121
That is why I'm so proud. That is why I would say the Teachers Institute.

00:50:21.621 --> 00:50:25.881
Which was a part of all of that, is my most proudest moment.

00:50:26.161 --> 00:50:34.221
And because of all of that work and just, I talked about how emotional I was

00:50:34.221 --> 00:50:38.361
as a graduate student studying the history of lynching and racial violence.

00:50:38.361 --> 00:50:42.101
Think about me between

00:50:42.101 --> 00:50:46.201
2016 and 2021 learning

00:50:46.201 --> 00:50:50.101
for the first i knew about the race mascot but i didn't know about it from the

00:50:50.101 --> 00:50:55.161
vantage point of victim survivors and descendants until i began to engage with

00:50:55.161 --> 00:51:04.461
with with the greenwood community that that changed me in the very much in the same way that, you know,

00:51:04.661 --> 00:51:10.521
getting proximate with lynching changed me and propelled me to really bear witness to it.

00:51:10.621 --> 00:51:18.341
And so I was remade by Greenwood in that institute. And it's so gratifying to

00:51:18.341 --> 00:51:24.741
see how, how narrative change has happened because of it. All right. So.

00:51:25.611 --> 00:51:30.771
Dr. Hill, how can people outside of enrolling at the University of Oklahoma,

00:51:30.771 --> 00:51:32.251
how can they get in touch with you?

00:51:32.411 --> 00:51:35.371
How can they reach out to you? All that kind of stuff.

00:51:36.131 --> 00:51:37.851
Oh, man, I'm easy to find.

00:51:41.591 --> 00:51:49.211
I'm easy to find. All they got to do is I have a website, carloskahill.com.

00:51:49.211 --> 00:51:57.551
I try to keep it up to date with articles or appearances that I have,

00:51:57.711 --> 00:52:00.731
but it's also a way to just contact me in my email.

00:52:01.111 --> 00:52:05.731
Excuse me, not my email, but there's a contact form that people can fill in

00:52:05.731 --> 00:52:09.111
if they want to send me an email and I answer everything.

00:52:09.471 --> 00:52:15.631
So that's probably the easiest and best way to learn a little bit more and connect with me. Yeah.

00:52:16.131 --> 00:52:21.271
Well, Dr. Karlos K. Hill, I, I greatly appreciate the work that you're doing, brother.

00:52:21.491 --> 00:52:25.211
I, like I, you know, in the intro, you know, I have an affinity,

00:52:25.211 --> 00:52:27.431
but especially, you know,

00:52:28.271 --> 00:52:34.651
those of you all who are really, really trying to make sure that all the gaps

00:52:34.651 --> 00:52:38.211
are filled and that the real story is being told.

00:52:38.211 --> 00:52:42.171
And so I just commend you for doing that.

00:52:42.331 --> 00:52:47.511
I wish you much success continuing that work and for this academic year.

00:52:48.891 --> 00:52:53.711
So most importantly, though, I want to thank you for coming on and sharing your

00:52:53.711 --> 00:52:54.871
thoughts with the listeners.

00:52:55.151 --> 00:52:58.791
And you have an open invitation. That's the rule.

00:52:58.911 --> 00:53:02.791
Once you accept the first invitation, you have an open invitation to come back.

00:53:02.911 --> 00:53:06.711
Anytime you say, Brother Erik, I got something on my mind. I need to talk about

00:53:06.711 --> 00:53:08.631
it. We'll turn the mic on and get it going.

00:53:09.290 --> 00:53:13.570
Hey, well, that's beautiful. Thank you for that open invitation.

00:53:13.850 --> 00:53:22.430
The last thing that I would say to the audience is my profound commitment to

00:53:22.430 --> 00:53:28.910
teaching the history of Black people is rooted in love, right?

00:53:28.910 --> 00:53:35.810
A love for not just Black people, but the ways in which Black people and Black

00:53:35.810 --> 00:53:39.230
culture has allowed me to live and have life today.

00:53:39.450 --> 00:53:44.330
I try to teach from that place of love and compassion for how our ancestors

00:53:44.330 --> 00:53:47.310
sacrificed suffered so that we could.

00:53:47.610 --> 00:53:55.630
And so getting in touch with that as much as I can is sort of where I am located.

00:53:55.630 --> 00:54:01.750
But I would say for for the audience who is thinking through these issues and

00:54:01.750 --> 00:54:04.690
trying to figure out for themselves what all this mean,

00:54:04.750 --> 00:54:11.550
I think the easiest way to simplify this and to and to think about this in a

00:54:11.550 --> 00:54:14.890
way that you can wrap your arms around it is,

00:54:15.170 --> 00:54:19.810
you know, not only what is your relationship to the black past,

00:54:19.970 --> 00:54:22.530
because that's hard to think about. Right.

00:54:22.810 --> 00:54:32.210
I always say everybody, no matter who they are, has a relationship to the black past.

00:54:32.710 --> 00:54:37.510
Right. The black past is central to modernity.

00:54:37.770 --> 00:54:42.490
We can't talk about modernity without enslavement and colonialism.

00:54:43.390 --> 00:54:47.830
Enslavement and colonialism produced the modern world alongside of capitalism.

00:54:48.110 --> 00:54:52.490
So everybody got a relationship with the black past, whether they know it or not.

00:54:52.630 --> 00:54:59.790
The only thing that one has to decide is whether they care about it or not.

00:55:00.470 --> 00:55:06.830
You have a relationship with the black past. Figure out why you care about it,

00:55:06.870 --> 00:55:08.910
and that will transform you.

00:55:09.330 --> 00:55:15.190
Well, thank you for that. and all right guys on that note we're gonna catch y'all on the other side.

00:55:16.880 --> 00:55:35.120
Music.

00:55:34.964 --> 00:55:40.924
All right. And we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Aurora Archer.

00:55:41.284 --> 00:55:47.484
Aurora Archer is the CEO and founder of The Opt-In, a certified B corporation

00:55:47.484 --> 00:55:52.844
on a mission to prepare leaders in organizations for a new world of work.

00:55:53.104 --> 00:55:57.264
One where all identities are able to see themselves reflected in leadership,

00:55:57.544 --> 00:56:03.284
see their narratives and needs reflected in products and services and given

00:56:03.284 --> 00:56:04.844
the conditions to thrive.

00:56:04.964 --> 00:56:11.824
The multidisciplinary consultancy offers bespoke expertise across human-centered

00:56:11.824 --> 00:56:15.924
business strategy and cultural competency learning programs,

00:56:15.944 --> 00:56:22.324
which allow executives to future-proof their organization's presence by enhancing recruiting,

00:56:22.604 --> 00:56:28.204
retention, and delivering growth by being relevant in a rapidly evolving marketplace.

00:56:29.204 --> 00:56:35.504
Aurora Archer draws on over 25 years of experience, leading success in four

00:56:35.504 --> 00:56:39.884
distinct industries, retail, technology, health and wellness,

00:56:40.064 --> 00:56:41.924
and content publishing and media.

00:56:42.824 --> 00:56:48.284
She has built a reputation as a courageous business transformation leader and strategic thinker.

00:56:48.284 --> 00:56:53.244
Aurora has developed and successfully executed business strategic planning and

00:56:53.244 --> 00:56:58.984
transformation initiatives in Fortune 100 companies, driving key business initiatives

00:56:58.984 --> 00:57:01.144
into technology, consumer markets,

00:57:01.844 --> 00:57:08.204
enterprise e-commerce, and big farmer integrated digital strategy innovation, to name a few.

00:57:08.204 --> 00:57:14.064
As an Afro-Latina, Aurora is fluent in Spanish, first-generation graduate of

00:57:14.064 --> 00:57:18.604
Syracuse University, the subject of a cover story in Working Mother magazine,

00:57:19.124 --> 00:57:24.144
the recipient of the University Science Center Nucleus Convener Award,

00:57:24.364 --> 00:57:30.884
as well as the PM360 Trailblazer Award and host of the Opt-In podcast.

00:57:31.604 --> 00:57:35.564
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:57:35.564 --> 00:57:38.984
on this podcast, Aurora Archer.

00:57:41.360 --> 00:57:50.960
Music.

00:57:49.635 --> 00:57:53.575
All right, Aurora Archer, how you doing, ma'am? You doing good?

00:57:54.135 --> 00:57:58.995
I am doing great. It's lovely to be with you. It's all good.

00:57:59.235 --> 00:58:02.715
Well, it's an honor to have you on and I know your time is valuable,

00:58:02.715 --> 00:58:07.395
so we're going to go ahead and get it started. it. I do a couple of icebreakers.

00:58:07.575 --> 00:58:10.275
So real quick, the first icebreaker is a quote.

00:58:11.315 --> 00:58:15.735
When you live with racism, you live in a constant state of stress.

00:58:15.895 --> 00:58:17.215
What does that quote mean to you?

00:58:17.935 --> 00:58:24.895
Oh, my goodness. It means the lived experience of so many beautiful humans that I love and cherish.

00:58:24.895 --> 00:58:35.415
It means the incredible opportunity that humanity has to transcend its delusion

00:58:35.415 --> 00:58:37.775
of separation and hierarchy.

00:58:38.575 --> 00:58:42.795
Yeah. All right. So now the next icebreaker is 20 questions.

00:58:43.095 --> 00:58:46.595
So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

00:58:47.095 --> 00:58:52.775
Eight. All right. What is one thing you hope the new administration will do

00:58:52.775 --> 00:58:54.895
or not do during their term?

00:58:55.295 --> 00:58:58.055
And when I say new, I mean the current one.

00:58:59.075 --> 00:59:06.915
I hope that consciousness prevails. I hope love prevails.

00:59:07.435 --> 00:59:15.315
And I hope voice prevails to mitigate the harm and destruction that embodies

00:59:15.315 --> 00:59:17.595
this administration. Yeah.

00:59:19.175 --> 00:59:24.415
I'll join you in that prayer. At what point in your life did you decide to be

00:59:24.415 --> 00:59:28.315
a cultural whisperer? I think I've always been a cultural whisperer.

00:59:28.415 --> 00:59:37.275
I think that calling was embedded into me by higher powers than myself.

00:59:37.615 --> 00:59:45.095
As an Afro-Latina, I have always found myself living in between worlds.

00:59:45.155 --> 00:59:51.655
I grew up with a Black father from Cuero, Texas, spending my Sundays at Baptist

00:59:51.655 --> 00:59:58.175
Church doing dance skits, the latest rhythms with my cousins.

00:59:58.695 --> 01:00:06.335
I also spent my summers in Mexico because my mother was a Mexican immigrant

01:00:06.335 --> 01:00:07.955
from Monterrey, Mexico.

01:00:08.395 --> 01:00:11.475
And as domestics, my parents couldn't afford childcare.

01:00:11.495 --> 01:00:18.515
So I would get shipped to Mexico to hang out with my abuelita and 32 cousins there.

01:00:18.875 --> 01:00:25.155
And in the process of that, I was exposed to the richness of the Mexican culture,

01:00:25.495 --> 01:00:32.655
its rhythms, its sounds, its music, its colors, its wisdom. And...

01:00:33.858 --> 01:00:38.858
Oddly enough, my cousins would call me the gringa, meaning the American,

01:00:38.858 --> 01:00:46.418
and it was always sort of at odds to me because I didn't perceive myself as an American,

01:00:46.798 --> 01:00:49.638
didn't feel I belonged to what was America.

01:00:49.638 --> 01:00:54.438
So, culturally, I had the incredible,

01:00:54.698 --> 01:01:01.158
incredible honor and experience to constantly be living in between worlds,

01:01:01.418 --> 01:01:06.258
to constantly be living in between people, countries,

01:01:06.858 --> 01:01:14.678
conversations, and spirit that made me finally attuned to listening to the whispers

01:01:14.678 --> 01:01:17.678
of people's hearts and desires. Yeah.

01:01:18.698 --> 01:01:22.518
So I'd spent a week in Monterey and it's it's a beautiful city.

01:01:22.678 --> 01:01:27.218
I love the fact that the river kind of divides the old part of town with the

01:01:27.218 --> 01:01:30.218
new part of town and stuff. It's and it's surrounded by mountains.

01:01:30.418 --> 01:01:35.398
It's really a beautiful place. It has been stated that goal that the goal of

01:01:35.398 --> 01:01:40.678
the opt in podcast is to transform our culture by dismantling white supremacy

01:01:40.678 --> 01:01:46.798
from the inside out one uncomfortable conversation at a time. How's that been going?

01:01:47.848 --> 01:01:55.428
So it's been going slow, but it has been going well with those leaders and individuals

01:01:55.428 --> 01:02:01.268
that choose to take us up on the invitation.

01:02:01.328 --> 01:02:07.728
On the invitation to their self-awareness, to the invitation of their self-reflection,

01:02:08.068 --> 01:02:13.708
to the invitation of their growth, and to the invitation of the expansion of

01:02:13.708 --> 01:02:15.688
their joy and happiness.

01:02:16.208 --> 01:02:20.308
Yeah. Because that's what's waiting at the other end of the work.

01:02:20.608 --> 01:02:25.728
That's what's waiting at the other end of the journey. Yeah. Yeah.

01:02:26.848 --> 01:02:35.768
And we know it's going to be a long journey, but I'm glad that you have taken that course to do that.

01:02:35.888 --> 01:02:39.128
And you had a co-conspirator with you, I guess.

01:02:39.888 --> 01:02:44.768
It is Journey. Kelly Croce Sorg. I think I'm saying it right. Right.

01:02:45.348 --> 01:02:51.328
Now, she has written, I've read an article where she talked about how you have challenged her.

01:02:51.708 --> 01:02:56.248
How has she challenged you in conversations about race?

01:02:57.428 --> 01:03:03.908
You know, I think the challenge always for me, and certainly Kelly embodied

01:03:03.908 --> 01:03:11.048
that, is how do I, in the most difficult of conversations,

01:03:11.448 --> 01:03:17.888
in the most trying of conversations, in the most repetitive conversations,

01:03:18.108 --> 01:03:21.828
because these conversations are not new to many of us of color,

01:03:21.828 --> 01:03:30.308
is to stay in a place of openness, to stay in a place of compassion,

01:03:30.708 --> 01:03:33.928
and to stay in a place of love.

01:03:35.110 --> 01:03:38.690
Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's the important thing, right?

01:03:39.310 --> 01:03:42.690
That, you know, the other guest is going to be on the podcast.

01:03:43.230 --> 01:03:46.610
That's what he was talking about. He's a history professor.

01:03:47.390 --> 01:03:54.750
And and he said his motivation for teaching history accurately is love and healing.

01:03:55.690 --> 01:04:04.070
And I look at the opt-in podcast as very similar and very deliberate in that goal. All right.

01:04:04.530 --> 01:04:08.910
You want to add some? Yeah. No, I mean, love is one of our values.

01:04:09.470 --> 01:04:17.650
And I think more so right now, we are being challenged to double down,

01:04:17.810 --> 01:04:22.810
to triple down in our value of love.

01:04:22.810 --> 01:04:25.790
I was very, very lucky.

01:04:25.790 --> 01:04:29.210
I was raised by a Black, dark,

01:04:29.470 --> 01:04:37.910
beautiful father in the South who navigated things that I can't even fathom

01:04:37.910 --> 01:04:40.950
and sadly continue today.

01:04:41.530 --> 01:04:47.950
One of the biggest lessons that he shared with me in moments when I saw my father

01:04:47.950 --> 01:04:50.390
in the most dehumanizing,

01:04:50.710 --> 01:04:59.370
in some of the most atrocious, atrocious moments of his life, being oppressed,

01:04:59.870 --> 01:05:07.130
he would look at me and put his hand on my shoulder and say, baby,

01:05:07.670 --> 01:05:14.310
love them, even when they don't know how to love themselves.

01:05:15.370 --> 01:05:25.610
The profoundness of what my father instilled in me from the moment I was a child. It took me years.

01:05:25.910 --> 01:05:32.350
It took me years, Erik, to unpack the true depthness and meaning of what he

01:05:32.350 --> 01:05:36.990
had been instilling in me. because that's not normally our first reaction.

01:05:37.290 --> 01:05:45.050
Our first reaction is to combat hate with hate, to combat force with force, fight with fight.

01:05:46.066 --> 01:05:49.766
And that is the opposite of what my father did.

01:05:49.966 --> 01:05:55.646
He would stand in the most deepest expression of love.

01:05:56.586 --> 01:06:02.486
Yeah. All right. What has been the most difficult thing for you to maintain?

01:06:03.306 --> 01:06:07.306
Scheduling mental breaks, prioritizing your physical health,

01:06:07.646 --> 01:06:11.066
making time for prayer, or putting yourself first?

01:06:12.086 --> 01:06:16.586
I would say all of those because all of those things, you know,

01:06:16.766 --> 01:06:21.066
you mentioned four things, but the last one is actually a combination of all three.

01:06:21.706 --> 01:06:30.986
And so as a Black Latina woman from conditioned by domestic parents,

01:06:30.986 --> 01:06:37.426
I have been programmed to overproduce and overperform and to overdeliver.

01:06:37.626 --> 01:06:41.646
That is my programming. And so when we have that programming,

01:06:41.946 --> 01:06:47.066
we are at the service of everyone around us, except ourselves.

01:06:47.486 --> 01:06:51.346
And so the greatest, I've had many big lessons in life,

01:06:51.466 --> 01:06:59.306
but the biggest lesson was the lesson of prioritizing myself first and beginning

01:06:59.306 --> 01:07:04.166
my day by pouring into myself first,

01:07:04.166 --> 01:07:08.446
that then allows me the opportunity to be of service to everyone else.

01:07:08.446 --> 01:07:12.806
So I am very grateful to say that I have learned my lesson.

01:07:13.346 --> 01:07:19.046
You know, sometimes I get off track, but for the most part, I start my day with prayer.

01:07:19.066 --> 01:07:24.426
I start my day with meditation and silence, and I start my day with movement.

01:07:25.686 --> 01:07:32.066
So recently you just had a, I guess, seminar or whatever event.

01:07:33.381 --> 01:07:40.401
I would say whatever because I'm trying to, you'll help me with the right wordage, a verbiage on that.

01:07:40.581 --> 01:07:47.541
But it was about having conversations with children, with our children about race.

01:07:47.901 --> 01:07:54.641
So my question is, what is the most important thing to remember in having conversations

01:07:54.641 --> 01:07:56.341
with children about race?

01:07:56.341 --> 01:08:03.461
You know, with my child, it was about, and my child grew up in Mississippi.

01:08:04.341 --> 01:08:08.141
So it was about just navigating.

01:08:08.461 --> 01:08:15.521
Fortunately, they were in an environment where they were always around other

01:08:15.521 --> 01:08:18.841
cultures, from kindergarten all the way through to high school.

01:08:18.841 --> 01:08:23.761
And so it wasn't, you know, it was kind of like the conversations were more

01:08:23.761 --> 01:08:28.721
like, well, dad, did you did you realize that those folks like this kind of

01:08:28.721 --> 01:08:31.161
music or they do certain things?

01:08:31.161 --> 01:08:36.181
And, you know, we just kind of talked about it, but it never was anything negative.

01:08:37.961 --> 01:08:43.321
And they they they've gotten more of a negative response in their lifestyle

01:08:43.321 --> 01:08:46.701
choice as opposed to their race.

01:08:47.201 --> 01:08:48.841
But that's just my personal thing.

01:08:50.621 --> 01:08:55.241
And I didn't get a chance to listen to the seminar, but what do you think is

01:08:55.241 --> 01:08:57.621
the most important thing to remember in these conversations?

01:08:59.281 --> 01:09:05.901
So one, I think what's important to remember is to ground our children in a

01:09:05.901 --> 01:09:07.701
clear understanding of who they are.

01:09:08.301 --> 01:09:12.021
And the clear understanding of who they are is that they are a child of God.

01:09:12.421 --> 01:09:17.941
They are a spirit. They are a spirit having a human existence,

01:09:17.941 --> 01:09:23.801
and that human existence is through what we call in our family the earth suit.

01:09:24.361 --> 01:09:29.781
My kids were very blessed to grow up in a multi-generational,

01:09:29.961 --> 01:09:38.421
multi-cultural home between their European, Irish-born and lived father to myself,

01:09:38.821 --> 01:09:43.121
to my Mexican mother, to my African-American father.

01:09:43.121 --> 01:09:50.261
So my kids grew up in a household where they literally experienced the United

01:09:50.261 --> 01:09:53.681
Nations in different languages and different accents and different cultures

01:09:53.681 --> 01:09:57.101
and different ways of being every single moment of their lives.

01:09:57.321 --> 01:10:04.181
And so I think it's very important for kids to understand you are a spirit having

01:10:04.181 --> 01:10:09.441
a human experience through an earth suit that one happens to look this way,

01:10:09.641 --> 01:10:11.801
another happens to look another way.

01:10:11.801 --> 01:10:15.521
One has curly hair and dark chocolate, beautiful skin.

01:10:15.701 --> 01:10:21.421
Another one has straight hair, pale white skin and blue eyes.

01:10:21.881 --> 01:10:28.041
That is just the form by which we are being given an opportunity to experience

01:10:28.041 --> 01:10:30.501
what it is like to be here.

01:10:31.555 --> 01:10:38.835
The part that we got twisted is that we believe that the earth suit is who we are, and it is not.

01:10:39.875 --> 01:10:44.675
And so one, that was the conversation that we had in our household.

01:10:44.995 --> 01:10:48.255
And so then you are able to have conversations that say, okay,

01:10:48.455 --> 01:10:52.735
based on this earth suit, there are people that are not going to like this earth

01:10:52.735 --> 01:10:56.795
suit or that earth suit, and they're going to have a lot of opinions about what

01:10:56.795 --> 01:10:58.635
that earth suit means or doesn't mean.

01:10:59.435 --> 01:11:05.155
Who's smart, who's not smart, who is worthy or not of being in the room.

01:11:05.335 --> 01:11:08.155
That's an earth suit thing. That is not who you are.

01:11:08.455 --> 01:11:10.195
But understand that people will

01:11:10.195 --> 01:11:14.455
have different opinions and different points of view on an earth suit.

01:11:14.595 --> 01:11:16.935
And you have to be clear on who you are.

01:11:18.095 --> 01:11:24.215
And you also have to be able to navigate spaces, rooms, and situations based

01:11:24.215 --> 01:11:28.415
on different people's perceptions of that earth suit. and the consciousness

01:11:28.415 --> 01:11:30.895
that they bring to that moment at that time.

01:11:32.155 --> 01:11:35.615
Yeah. Well, and that's transcendent beyond race.

01:11:36.075 --> 01:11:42.555
You know, when I was talking about my child and their lifestyle choices, my child is non-binary.

01:11:43.415 --> 01:11:49.395
So they, you know, in Mississippi, they encountered a different attitude than

01:11:49.395 --> 01:11:51.375
where they are now, right?

01:11:52.295 --> 01:11:58.455
But that whole concept about the earth suit still applies even to them.

01:11:58.755 --> 01:12:01.255
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So.

01:12:01.875 --> 01:12:06.295
Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's a great message and a great foundation,

01:12:06.295 --> 01:12:11.855
not just for parents, but for some of us adults to kind of reprogram ourselves, right?

01:12:12.355 --> 01:12:18.595
Yes. And so this is, we're in an era where we are all choosing,

01:12:18.595 --> 01:12:20.755
and this is why we talk about it at the opt-in.

01:12:20.755 --> 01:12:26.275
It's an invitation, an invitation to examine the programming,

01:12:26.655 --> 01:12:31.355
examine the belief systems that we have all been inculcated into,

01:12:31.615 --> 01:12:33.335
whether that is white supremacy,

01:12:33.735 --> 01:12:41.995
whether that is hierarchy, hierarchy of human value, whether that is who belongs, who doesn't belong.

01:12:41.995 --> 01:12:47.075
These are all belief systems that we have been programmed with,

01:12:47.215 --> 01:12:53.855
and we all have an incredible opportunity to examine them and to say, does that make sense?

01:12:54.435 --> 01:13:00.635
Did I choose that or did I just fall into something because that's what my mama

01:13:00.635 --> 01:13:05.635
did or that's what my grandma did or that's what my culture did or the city

01:13:05.635 --> 01:13:08.595
that I was born in or the country that I was born in?

01:13:08.595 --> 01:13:13.815
What is true for me inside my heart?

01:13:14.937 --> 01:13:17.957
Yeah. Well, that's a beautiful way to end it.

01:13:18.097 --> 01:13:23.637
And I hate that I have to end it, but I know that you're on a schedule and I

01:13:23.637 --> 01:13:26.437
greatly appreciate the time that you've given me for this.

01:13:27.317 --> 01:13:31.977
So this is normally the part of the program where I allow the guests to kind

01:13:31.977 --> 01:13:36.097
of talk about what they're doing, how people can reach out to them and all that.

01:13:36.217 --> 01:13:39.677
So go ahead and do your thing. Sure.

01:13:40.097 --> 01:13:46.497
So folks can find us on theoptin.com.

01:13:47.037 --> 01:13:49.917
That is our website. You can find us on LinkedIn.

01:13:49.917 --> 01:13:52.957
You can find me, Aurora Archer, on LinkedIn.

01:13:52.957 --> 01:14:00.897
We are so excited to partner with leaders and organizations that understand

01:14:00.897 --> 01:14:05.257
that at the end of the day, it is about humanity.

01:14:05.257 --> 01:14:11.257
It is about people who deliver against the results or objectives of their organization,

01:14:11.257 --> 01:14:17.697
and that we have an incredible opportunity to foster the thriving of all individuals

01:14:17.697 --> 01:14:23.457
inside of a workplace to achieve the objectives and performance of the organization.

01:14:23.757 --> 01:14:28.517
And so we welcome the opportunity to connect with those leaders,

01:14:28.797 --> 01:14:33.097
courageous leaders, visionary leaders who are willing to go on the journey.

01:14:33.677 --> 01:14:37.917
Well, hopefully one day you might be able to get our president on there,

01:14:37.917 --> 01:14:40.777
or at least a couple other folks I could suggest.

01:14:40.957 --> 01:14:43.257
But, you know, we'll just we'll just keep it at that.

01:14:43.857 --> 01:14:46.977
Aurora Archer, I greatly appreciate you taking the time, sister.

01:14:47.217 --> 01:14:51.077
And hopefully the next time we get together, because, you know,

01:14:51.237 --> 01:14:55.277
the rule is once you've been invited and you've come on the show,

01:14:55.277 --> 01:14:57.037
you have an open invitation to come back.

01:14:57.657 --> 01:15:03.637
It would be my pleasure. Yes, ma'am. So again, just thank you for coming on. I appreciate it.

01:15:04.177 --> 01:15:09.097
Thank you. Thank you for all that you do. I appreciate you. Keep on, keep on, my friend.

01:15:09.477 --> 01:15:12.497
Yes, ma'am. All right, guys, and we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:15:13.840 --> 01:15:24.400
Music.

01:15:24.695 --> 01:15:28.515
All right. And we are back. So I want to thank Dr.

01:15:28.715 --> 01:15:33.195
Karlos K. Hill for coming on before he had to teach classes.

01:15:34.395 --> 01:15:39.015
And I want to thank Aurora Archer for fitting me in her busy schedule.

01:15:39.675 --> 01:15:45.275
And just glad she kept a place for me in order for us to do this.

01:15:46.035 --> 01:15:49.295
This Archer's interview is probably one of the shortest ones I've done,

01:15:49.495 --> 01:15:52.735
but I think there was one other about the same amount of time,

01:15:52.935 --> 01:15:59.415
but, you know, we got in everything that we needed to, excuse me, needed to discuss.

01:16:00.635 --> 01:16:05.975
So I'm just grateful that they came on. Those individuals are very special people.

01:16:06.315 --> 01:16:11.315
And like I said in the intro, their heart's in the right place because it's

01:16:11.315 --> 01:16:14.255
all about love, healing, and compassion, right?

01:16:15.275 --> 01:16:21.555
And that's what we need. But we also, there's one other element I wanted to touch on before we go.

01:16:21.875 --> 01:16:24.255
And we need to have some fight in us too.

01:16:24.655 --> 01:16:32.275
I was watching a TikTok video where this Black man who's about my age was talking

01:16:32.275 --> 01:16:38.195
to a young man who I think was about to quit the football team.

01:16:38.895 --> 01:16:45.375
And he was really, really passionate in convincing that young man to stay and practice.

01:16:46.495 --> 01:16:52.295
And, you know, he used some rough language and somebody from a distance may

01:16:52.295 --> 01:16:56.915
have thought he was fussing at him, but all he was doing was showing him some

01:16:56.915 --> 01:16:58.695
love. He was fighting for him.

01:16:58.855 --> 01:17:02.015
He wasn't fighting against him. He was fighting for him.

01:17:02.235 --> 01:17:08.415
He was telling him, you know, I can't do anything for you if you leave,

01:17:08.415 --> 01:17:13.415
but as long as you're here, I will do everything in my power to make sure that

01:17:13.415 --> 01:17:16.595
you're successful, not just on the field, but in life.

01:17:18.195 --> 01:17:25.955
And it is possible in this day and age and in this political arena even to love

01:17:25.955 --> 01:17:32.815
and to be compassionate and to achieve healing with a fighting spirit.

01:17:33.355 --> 01:17:36.135
I think that, you know,

01:17:36.435 --> 01:17:42.335
we've gotten to a point where either we're looked at as either belligerent or

01:17:42.335 --> 01:17:50.175
out of pocket or going against the grain if we resist. Right.

01:17:50.975 --> 01:17:54.395
It's just easier to go along, get along, keep your head down,

01:17:54.515 --> 01:17:58.255
keep it moving. As long as it doesn't affect me directly, I'm good.

01:17:59.115 --> 01:18:02.055
And, you know, let the chips fall where they may.

01:18:02.815 --> 01:18:07.735
And we really can't afford to do that. And I'm speaking through a political

01:18:07.735 --> 01:18:12.735
lens because if we don't have compassion, if we don't have love,

01:18:13.115 --> 01:18:16.735
then we can't do the right thing, right?

01:18:17.115 --> 01:18:22.055
We can't be there when the citizens need us to be there.

01:18:23.453 --> 01:18:29.753
So when I'm, and I didn't watch it, watch it, but I just saw the clips and then,

01:18:29.753 --> 01:18:34.353
you know, to hear the reports, when you have a cabinet meeting, right?

01:18:34.453 --> 01:18:37.253
If you're the president of the United States and you have a cabinet meeting

01:18:37.253 --> 01:18:42.933
and you're trying to get an assessment of where we are and you're allowing the

01:18:42.933 --> 01:18:47.773
public to see how the cabinet of the,

01:18:47.773 --> 01:18:52.313
of the president of the United States is working for the American people,

01:18:52.853 --> 01:18:58.793
you expect to hear things like, I don't know, with the Department of Transportation.

01:19:00.053 --> 01:19:06.033
How we're coming on fulfilling the obligations of repairing roads, bridges, and highways,

01:19:06.773 --> 01:19:14.313
how we're working on making air travel safer, or with the Department of Education,

01:19:14.313 --> 01:19:17.773
even if your mission is to end it, right?

01:19:18.573 --> 01:19:23.153
Figure you hear some updates about how we're going to transition from having

01:19:23.153 --> 01:19:28.773
a cabinet-level position to allowing the states to do their thing, right?

01:19:29.093 --> 01:19:32.493
Whether you agree with that position or not, you expect to hear an update.

01:19:32.813 --> 01:19:38.033
Or Homeland Security, especially. It's like, where are we at with Border Patrol?

01:19:38.213 --> 01:19:43.773
And, you know, how are we dealing with all of these detentions and arrests,

01:19:43.993 --> 01:19:46.353
how fast are the immigration courts going?

01:19:46.433 --> 01:19:49.373
You expect to hear those kind of things.

01:19:49.573 --> 01:19:52.773
Again, whether you agree with the positions or not, those are the things you

01:19:52.773 --> 01:19:54.593
expect to hear at a cabinet meeting.

01:19:54.773 --> 01:19:58.573
Secretary of State, how's the negotiations going in Ukraine,

01:19:59.093 --> 01:20:00.173
between Ukraine and Russia?

01:20:00.373 --> 01:20:04.833
How's the negotiations going between Hamas and Israel? Where are we at in the

01:20:04.833 --> 01:20:08.033
Congo, you know, those kind of things.

01:20:08.813 --> 01:20:13.113
You don't expect to hear three and a half hours of people kissing somebody's ass.

01:20:14.073 --> 01:20:17.153
That's not what anybody voted for.

01:20:17.833 --> 01:20:23.293
Democrat, Republican, Independent, Libertarian, Green, nobody voted for that.

01:20:23.893 --> 01:20:26.653
Nobody voted for grown men and women.

01:20:26.833 --> 01:20:30.733
And these are all grown men and women who have accomplished things in life, right?

01:20:30.833 --> 01:20:34.973
These are not people who, well, maybe a couple of them, but the majority of

01:20:34.973 --> 01:20:36.733
these people are not folks that,

01:20:37.293 --> 01:20:44.893
you know, just the president pulled from Trump Tower in the butler's pantry

01:20:44.893 --> 01:20:47.073
and said, hey, I need y'all to serve in the government, right?

01:20:47.393 --> 01:20:53.633
You got people that were former members of Congress, former governors, right?

01:20:54.253 --> 01:20:58.573
People that had some sense of accomplishment in their lives,

01:20:58.573 --> 01:21:04.453
who kind of understand how politics work and kind of understand how government is supposed to work.

01:21:04.873 --> 01:21:10.193
At least that's a perception you were given, right? Because of their background and their resumes.

01:21:11.760 --> 01:21:16.560
So to see these grown people, right, even if they're coming from the business

01:21:16.560 --> 01:21:19.520
community, most of them have been CEOs, right?

01:21:20.460 --> 01:21:28.100
To see these grown folks, just, you know, I guess to them, it wasn't humiliating.

01:21:28.260 --> 01:21:36.400
But for those of us who still believe in the word pride and self-esteem, that was embarrassing.

01:21:36.800 --> 01:21:42.700
That was embarrassing to me as a citizen, right? You know, we laugh at North

01:21:42.700 --> 01:21:50.220
Korea when we see these generals in full military dress kneeling and bowing to Kim Jong-un, right?

01:21:50.820 --> 01:21:55.440
We thought that was funny. But that's actually happening now,

01:21:55.660 --> 01:21:58.380
here, in the United States of America.

01:21:58.780 --> 01:22:02.460
That's totally insane to me, you know?

01:22:02.460 --> 01:22:08.880
I mean, God, that picture now of Nancy Pelosi standing up and pointing at the

01:22:08.880 --> 01:22:12.280
president during his first administration, right,

01:22:12.500 --> 01:22:18.840
is like even more iconic now than it was then.

01:22:19.540 --> 01:22:26.620
Because at a cabinet meeting or at a meeting with leaders, you kind of expect some pushback.

01:22:26.620 --> 01:22:31.580
You expect some dialogue, you know, because you're trying to get something done.

01:22:31.580 --> 01:22:34.640
And you're floating ideas out there, right?

01:22:34.900 --> 01:22:37.360
And then, you know, there are some people who say, well, you know,

01:22:37.420 --> 01:22:41.040
if everybody's harmonious, that's a good thing, right?

01:22:41.260 --> 01:22:43.440
If you're talking about policy, yes.

01:22:44.100 --> 01:22:49.920
But if you're trying to throw accolades and flowers to the dear leader,

01:22:50.440 --> 01:22:51.840
no, that's embarrassing.

01:22:52.460 --> 01:22:54.400
That's terrible, right?

01:22:55.420 --> 01:23:01.460
So now we have to rally around people who fight back.

01:23:01.580 --> 01:23:04.800
We have to rally around somebody like a Lisa Cook.

01:23:06.241 --> 01:23:12.481
Is fighting to keep her job as a Federal Reserve governor, right?

01:23:12.981 --> 01:23:16.861
Who the president is trying to find some way to kick her out so he would have

01:23:16.861 --> 01:23:23.141
enough votes to force Chairman Powell before he steps down to reduce interest rates.

01:23:23.301 --> 01:23:29.841
Now, the chairman has said, I think we might could lower the rates a little bit in September.

01:23:30.021 --> 01:23:34.021
He said that already, but that's not quick enough for Donald Trump.

01:23:34.261 --> 01:23:42.121
He wants him to do it yesterday just because he wants it, not what the long-term

01:23:42.121 --> 01:23:44.041
economic impact will be.

01:23:44.761 --> 01:23:48.741
Will it boost the housing market?

01:23:50.101 --> 01:23:53.221
All those factors that you have to weigh in.

01:23:53.901 --> 01:23:59.721
The consumer is going to have more money to buy goods, even with these high tariffs, right? Right.

01:24:00.441 --> 01:24:06.061
That's what you have to weigh in when you're making a decision about interest rates going up or down.

01:24:06.681 --> 01:24:12.161
Because if you if you let the interest rates go up, you're trying to limit spending and limit inflation.

01:24:12.861 --> 01:24:18.361
Now, I am not an economist. It's just, you know, basic stuff I've learned doing

01:24:18.361 --> 01:24:21.461
this podcast and remember from college and all this stuff.

01:24:21.461 --> 01:24:28.741
But basic principle is if you want to slow down spending, right,

01:24:28.901 --> 01:24:30.281
then you raise interest rates.

01:24:30.901 --> 01:24:34.101
If you want spending to increase, you lower the interest rates,

01:24:34.301 --> 01:24:37.241
right? That's about as simplistic as a non-economist can tell you.

01:24:37.801 --> 01:24:41.921
If you want to get into the weeds, the Internet is there for you.

01:24:42.961 --> 01:24:46.641
There are books out there. There are actually people who do this for a living, right?

01:24:47.441 --> 01:24:50.761
So, you know, but there's other factors, of course, that's involved.

01:24:50.761 --> 01:24:55.161
And, you know, so it's not about playing musical chairs with who should be on the board.

01:24:55.861 --> 01:25:02.501
It's about trusting the people who have been appointed to make these decisions.

01:25:02.521 --> 01:25:04.401
And most of these people have a background.

01:25:04.601 --> 01:25:10.561
Most of these people have been that serve as governors have been chairs in their

01:25:10.561 --> 01:25:13.381
respective Federal Reserve districts. Right.

01:25:13.881 --> 01:25:18.221
Because I think Miss Cook is at one point was here in Atlanta. Yeah.

01:25:19.241 --> 01:25:24.061
So, you know, and she's the first black woman to sit on the board of governors.

01:25:24.261 --> 01:25:26.781
She's not the first black because it was this brother named,

01:25:26.921 --> 01:25:29.281
I want to say Andrew Brimmer.

01:25:29.741 --> 01:25:32.621
Y'all can double check that and make sure.

01:25:32.801 --> 01:25:36.541
But because that was a big deal as a kid growing up, it was like,

01:25:36.781 --> 01:25:40.181
oh, wow, we got a black guy on this, on the Federal Reserve Board.

01:25:40.701 --> 01:25:44.161
Now, I probably was the only young kid that was excited about that.

01:25:44.321 --> 01:25:46.881
But I'm just saying, especially in my neighborhood.

01:25:47.141 --> 01:25:51.141
But that was a big deal to have a black man on that board.

01:25:51.321 --> 01:25:53.261
And so now we got the sister here

01:25:53.261 --> 01:25:56.201
and the president is trying to kick her out, which is not a good look.

01:25:56.941 --> 01:26:01.141
No matter how he'll try to say this is not racist and blah, blah, blah.

01:26:02.061 --> 01:26:05.261
Why are you picking on a black woman? Why are you trying to get her up?

01:26:06.998 --> 01:26:10.938
You're trying to dig dirt on her to justify you getting rid of her, right?

01:26:11.878 --> 01:26:16.798
So, you know, Sister Cook said, no, brother, I'm not leaving.

01:26:17.618 --> 01:26:20.538
Matter of fact, I'm going to sue you to get you off my back.

01:26:21.518 --> 01:26:26.438
Because she cares about the American people. She cares about the economy.

01:26:27.038 --> 01:26:31.398
Because if the economy goes sideways, that's going to affect people that she

01:26:31.398 --> 01:26:34.078
knows. That's going to affect American citizens.

01:26:34.678 --> 01:26:38.258
And she's taking her role seriously and she doesn't want to be caught up in

01:26:38.258 --> 01:26:42.278
games to hinder her from doing her job, right?

01:26:42.978 --> 01:26:49.858
Same like with these governors, you know, Wes Moore and Gavin Newsom and J.B.

01:26:49.998 --> 01:26:51.958
Pritzker and Tim Walz, right?

01:26:52.178 --> 01:26:55.538
I think Ferguson is the governor in Washington State. You know,

01:26:55.658 --> 01:26:58.338
these individuals are like Kathy Hochul in New York.

01:26:58.978 --> 01:27:03.318
These folks are like, look, this is not a game to us.

01:27:04.078 --> 01:27:11.138
You know, when you send troops, and I guess you can put Muriel Bowser in that

01:27:11.138 --> 01:27:17.238
because she's the mayor of Washington, D.C. That's the highest position in the district.

01:27:17.678 --> 01:27:24.338
You can put her in that line with governor, I guess. But, you know, that's a real thing.

01:27:24.338 --> 01:27:37.258
And some of us are old enough that if we didn't actually see it or wasn't actually related to it,

01:27:37.538 --> 01:27:40.598
it was relatively new to be teaching us.

01:27:40.778 --> 01:27:45.338
We were young kids learning about federal troops going into Little Rock,

01:27:45.418 --> 01:27:48.698
Arkansas to make sure that kids go to high school, right?

01:27:49.098 --> 01:27:51.598
Or New Orleans, right?

01:27:52.398 --> 01:27:58.518
So when you, you know, or, you know, when you have uprisings in these cities,

01:27:59.058 --> 01:28:03.238
you know, after the King assassination, the National Guard show up or Kent State,

01:28:03.658 --> 01:28:08.558
right, which was right around the time the shootings took place at Jackson State,

01:28:08.818 --> 01:28:12.358
same months, probably the same week, as a matter of fact.

01:28:13.957 --> 01:28:18.477
Deal when the National Guard shows up. If it's not a natural disaster happening,

01:28:18.797 --> 01:28:24.017
the National Guard shows up in your community, in your town. It's a big deal.

01:28:24.397 --> 01:28:28.257
And you got these governors and mayors fighting back saying,

01:28:28.257 --> 01:28:31.717
don't do that. It's not that serious.

01:28:32.157 --> 01:28:34.857
It's never been that serious, right?

01:28:35.297 --> 01:28:39.517
Whether the crime rate is high or low or whatever, we can handle it.

01:28:39.737 --> 01:28:42.097
That's why we are elected to

01:28:42.097 --> 01:28:45.437
these positions. You are elected to deal with stuff at a national level.

01:28:46.157 --> 01:28:49.917
We deal with the stuff at a more local level. We can handle it.

01:28:50.277 --> 01:28:54.817
If we need your help, we know how to call you. We know where the White House is.

01:28:55.877 --> 01:29:00.677
Most of us have at least been there at least once or twice. If we need you, we'll call you.

01:29:01.017 --> 01:29:05.177
You don't need to be proactive, right?

01:29:05.677 --> 01:29:13.297
And that's given the benefit of the doubt that there's no undertones with the actions, right?

01:29:13.997 --> 01:29:20.477
So it's just a reminder that even though we want the nation to be healed,

01:29:20.637 --> 01:29:27.417
even though we want unification or some semblance of it, let's say an orderly society, right?

01:29:27.557 --> 01:29:32.937
And we want people to respect each other and love each other and,

01:29:32.937 --> 01:29:37.757
you know, protect each other's space, protect our own space.

01:29:38.477 --> 01:29:42.777
You know, Coretta Scott King, and I'm paraphrasing, said, yeah,

01:29:42.837 --> 01:29:43.817
you got to fight for that, though.

01:29:44.677 --> 01:29:48.237
Every day. It's not just going to happen.

01:29:50.137 --> 01:29:56.617
Because whether you believe in natural, supernatural, whether you believe,

01:29:56.817 --> 01:30:05.057
you know, have a faith core or not, Evil is present, however you define what evil is, right?

01:30:06.137 --> 01:30:12.737
We know that evil is the opposite of good. So we know that there is a force out there.

01:30:13.417 --> 01:30:16.117
There's a movement out there not to do good.

01:30:16.997 --> 01:30:20.217
And we have to fight against that all the time.

01:30:20.797 --> 01:30:28.157
It doesn't have to be an overexertion, although some of us have taken that cause.

01:30:29.497 --> 01:30:37.057
But you have to fight for good You have to fight for freedom You don't have

01:30:37.057 --> 01:30:44.277
to be mad about it Or angry all the time Because there is such a term as a happy warrior Right?

01:30:45.889 --> 01:30:55.149
To fight. So I am glad that somebody decided to run in a district where Donald

01:30:55.149 --> 01:31:00.369
Trump got beat Kamala Harris by 11 points in the last election,

01:31:00.449 --> 01:31:04.069
and they fought and they got elected.

01:31:04.569 --> 01:31:09.569
I'm glad that we've got people running in offices where it's like in cities

01:31:09.569 --> 01:31:14.269
where it's like, hey, the Republicans run this, there's no way you can do it,

01:31:14.309 --> 01:31:16.069
and they're fighting back. Right.

01:31:16.869 --> 01:31:22.649
The only reason, the main reason why Democrats in the South are,

01:31:22.749 --> 01:31:28.749
you know, majority black as far as voting and elected officials and all that

01:31:28.749 --> 01:31:30.129
is because we fought for that.

01:31:31.029 --> 01:31:34.029
You know, people always want to talk about, well, you know, it was the Democrats

01:31:34.029 --> 01:31:38.569
that were for slavery and the Democrats, you know, Jim Crow and all that stuff.

01:31:38.569 --> 01:31:41.069
Yeah, historically, all that is true, right?

01:31:41.549 --> 01:31:47.269
What you fail to mention is during 1850s and 60s, there was a branch of the

01:31:47.269 --> 01:31:51.809
Democrats, primarily the Northern Democrats, that broke away from that, right?

01:31:52.129 --> 01:31:59.029
But then you also fail to mention the 1960s, which started with the Mississippi

01:31:59.029 --> 01:32:04.309
Freedom Democratic Party challenging the Mississippi Democratic Party,

01:32:04.509 --> 01:32:07.369
saying that Black folks have a voice, right?

01:32:08.569 --> 01:32:13.249
Making sure that they fought for their seats, their credentials at the 64 convention

01:32:13.249 --> 01:32:15.069
in Atlantic City, right?

01:32:15.729 --> 01:32:20.029
Forget about the Southern strategy that Nixon employed, which came to fruition

01:32:20.029 --> 01:32:27.909
by the 1980s, but that was to get the Southern Democrats to switch over to the Republican Party.

01:32:28.289 --> 01:32:37.009
You bypass all that to try to make a point, but history is history and you need to learn it.

01:32:38.660 --> 01:32:43.180
So, you know, and then, of course, the policies from Kennedy and all that stuff, right?

01:32:43.920 --> 01:32:47.780
You know, there's a reason why things are the way they are.

01:32:48.100 --> 01:32:53.680
But the main reason is because people fought for this country to go forward.

01:32:54.160 --> 01:32:58.060
They didn't sit around a table for three and a half hours and kiss anybody's ass.

01:32:58.520 --> 01:33:02.980
They fought for what they needed to fight for, whether they turned water hoses

01:33:02.980 --> 01:33:08.540
on them, dogs on them, lynched them, whatever. They fought.

01:33:10.060 --> 01:33:16.900
And now we're at a place where there's generations of folks that actually can make the claim,

01:33:17.160 --> 01:33:21.720
hey, I'm a full-class citizen and I need to be treated as such and I'm not going

01:33:21.720 --> 01:33:26.220
back to whatever that was 50, 60, 70 years ago.

01:33:27.060 --> 01:33:33.180
That's not happening. So all I'm saying is this, guys. I want you to be nice.

01:33:34.720 --> 01:33:38.840
I want you to be respectful, But I need you to fight.

01:33:39.660 --> 01:33:44.520
We cannot allow this to be our normal.

01:33:44.820 --> 01:33:50.660
We cannot be sensitized to this or desensitized. Right.

01:33:51.420 --> 01:33:58.540
We got to keep pushing that Boulder may seem to have gotten bigger.

01:33:59.920 --> 01:34:08.260
Dr. King even said, you know, during his time, there were people that were hoping against hope, right?

01:34:08.960 --> 01:34:14.660
It can be depressing. It can be daunting. It is definitely challenging.

01:34:15.600 --> 01:34:22.200
But human history teaches us that if we fight, we win. All right, guys.

01:34:22.880 --> 01:34:24.880
Thank you all for listening. Until next time.

01:34:27.600 --> 01:35:12.887
Music.