Ethics & Empathy Featuring Dr. Wylin Wilson and Dr. Terri Givens

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Hello, and welcome to Another Moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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And we have a good episode this go-around.

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Both of my guests exude a pleasantness.

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And even when we're talking about some heavy subjects, it was really,

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really a joy to have these interviews with them.

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And so the emphasis of this podcast is ethics and empathy.

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And the two young ladies who are scholars, college professors,

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all that, in their own respective way, talk about those issues.

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And I hope that it is enlightening to you as it was to me talking to them about

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it, and I hope that it gives some encouragement in this time.

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So we...

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So I'm really, really enthused about that. And I hope that you enjoy the show as it progresses.

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You know, before we, you know, go into the show and bring Grace forward,

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I do want to remind folks that you're still trying to generate funds to help the people in Jamaica.

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And if you know of some sites for, you know, some of the other locations that

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were hit, like Haiti, Dominican Republic, even Cuba, you know, let me know.

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But the website I've been pushing is supportjamaica.gov.jm.

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They had the foresight to put that together before the storm actually hit.

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And so if you go to that website, you can donate there.

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The United States has committed $24 million to help, I think,

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Haiti, Jamaica, Cuba, I think, and the Bahamas.

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I think they've committed money to that, and half of that $24 million is going

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to Jamaica, because Jamaica was the hardest hit out of all of them.

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Cuba had a direct hit, but it was a Category 3 when they hit Cuba.

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Not that that's light by any stretch of imagination, because Katrina,

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by the time it hit Jackson, Mississippi was a three.

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And, you know, it was, I think it

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was a four or three when it actually hit Mississippi Waveland altogether.

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But Jamaica had a category five hurricane.

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Melissa was category five when it hit them. So they're still in the recovery phase of,

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and there. So please, if you go to supportjamaica.gov.jm, you can assist in that endeavor.

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We're still trying to get, you know, subscribers and all that.

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So you can go to patreon.com slash a moment with Erik Fleming,

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or you can go to momenterik.com.

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And that's Eric with a K on both of those.

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And, you know, and continue to support our podcast because, you know,

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we're trying to stay independent and trying to stay focused in on issues and

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have discussions that will hopefully enlighten and expose the audience to a

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lot of people that maybe won't be exposed.

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I've been very fortunate to get some people that have been on mainstream media,

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you know, or been on the headlines and all that.

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But there are a lot of people that are doing the work and trying to do their

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part to change this nation for the better.

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And your support will allow me to continue to uplift those folks.

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So, all right, enough about that. Let's go on and get this show on the road.

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And as always, we kick it off with a Moment of News with Grace G.

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Thanks, Erik. Following dual federal court orders, the Trump administration

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announced a plan to partially fund November SNAP benefits for millions of Americans.

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Hurricane Melissa caused at least 83 deaths across Jamaica, Haiti,

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and the Dominican Republic, along with an estimated tens of billions of dollars

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in damage and economic loss.

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Nancy Pelosi, the first woman to serve as Speaker of the U.S.

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House of Representatives, will not seek re-election to Congress in 2026.

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Democrats gained significant momentum ahead of next year's midterms by sweeping major elections,

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including Zoran Mamdani's mayoral win in New York City, gubernatorial victories

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for Abigail Spanberger in Virginia and Mikie Sherrill in New Jersey,

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and two utility commissioners in Georgia.

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California voters overwhelmingly supported a referendum to create more U.S.

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House seats favoring Democrats.

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Maryland Governor Wes Moore established a new redistricting commission to recommend

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improvements to the state's congressional map before the 2026 midterm elections.

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A U.S. appeals court overturned a Chicago judge's order that required a top

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border official to report to her daily about his agent's activities in the city.

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Americans shopping for 2026 Obamacare plans face a more than doubling of average

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monthly premiums due to the potential end of COVID-19 pandemic-era subsidies.

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New Mexico became the first U.S. state to offer free child care to all residents,

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regardless of income, through state vouchers.

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The NAACP filed a lawsuit against Virginia state election officials,

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alleging they are disenfranchising students by rejecting their voter registration

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forms for not including details like dormitory room numbers.

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Federal prosecutors charged two men in Michigan with firearms offenses related

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to an alleged ISIS-inspired plot to carry out a U.S. attack on October 31st.

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And former Vice President Dick Cheney died at the age of 84.

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I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for

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my guest, Dr. Wylin Wilson.

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Dr. Wylin D. Wilson is Associate Professor of Theological Ethics at Duke Divinity

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School, where she teaches within the Theology, Medicine, and Culture Initiative.

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Her teaching and research are at the intersection of bioethics, gender, and theology.

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She is former teaching faculty at Harvard Medical School Center for Bioethics.

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She served as a senior fellow at the Harvard Divinity School Center for the

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Study of World Religions and visiting lecturer in Harvard Divinity School Women's

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Studies in Religion program.

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She is also former associate director of education for the Tuskegee University

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National Center for Bioethics and Research in Healthcare and a former faculty

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member of Tuskegee University College of Agriculture,

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Environment and Nutrition Services.

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She is currently principal investigator for the bioethics in Black church addressing

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racial inequalities and Black women's health in North Carolina's research project,

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which examines the potential of the Black church as a resource in addressing

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the Black maternal health crisis in the U.S.

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Dr. Wilson earned her Ph.D.

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In Religion, Ethics, and Society from Emory University, her M.S.

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In Agricultural Resource and Managerial Economics from Cornell University,

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and her Master of Divinity from the Interdenominational Theological Center.

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She is a member of the Society for the Study of Black Religion.

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The American Society for Bioethics and Humanities, the American Academy of Religion,

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and the Center for Reconciliation Advisory Board at Duke Divinity School.

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Dr. Wilson's publications include This is My Body, Faith Communities as Sites

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of Transfiguring Vulnerability, Bioenhancement, and the Vulnerable Body.

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A Theological Engagement, her first book, Economic Ethics in the Black Church,

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and her second book, Womanist Bioethics, Social Justice, Spirituality,

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and Black Women's Health.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Dr. Wylin Wilson.

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All right. Dr. Wylin Wilson, how are you doing, sister? You doing good?

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I am doing good. Thank you. Well, I am doing well also. I have to say this disclaimer

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to my listeners, since this is an audio-only podcast, you are missing out on

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one of the greatest smiles of all time.

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So I'm feeling really, really relaxed and really good about this interview. Dr.

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Wilson, what I'd like to do to start the interviews off is I do a couple of

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what we call icebreakers.

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So the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.

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And the quote is, attending is the discipline that trains the ego and opens

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the heart so that a humble, compassionate, and just regard for others can occur.

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What does that quote mean to you?

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It means everything, right? It actually makes me think of my grandmother and

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those sweet church ladies who loved me into being, right?

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That attending to folks, that compassion, that care,

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taking the time to always make sure that this person knows that they are loved,

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they are supported, and that you're in their corner. or you have their back,

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you know, when they need it.

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And so it just makes me think of just, it gives me all the warm feels inside, right?

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And it makes me actually think about what could be in terms of our healthcare system.

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I would hope that that's the kind of foundation that we could create where folks,

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whenever you step into a clinician's office,

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whenever you're in the midst of a provider, That that kind of love,

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that kind of regard for your well-being and for you would be there.

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So I think it also is a quote that holds out hope.

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Yeah. Okay. So the other part of the icebreaker is called 20 questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

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I'll go safe. I'll say 3.

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All right. How should we balance rights, freedoms, and responsibilities?

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Oh, rights, freedom, and right. Okay.

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So I would say when I look at freedom, particularly.

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In conjunction with rights and responsibility, it makes me think of,

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you know, that question of what kind of freedom are we talking about?

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Freedom from something or freedom to, you know, to do something, right?

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Because I think that when we kind of put that in perspective of what are we

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talking about when we say freedom, freedom to,

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because the freedom to, to do something, to be in community,

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to share in the burdens and benefits of what it means to be in community,

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that automatically includes this kind of deep other regard for,

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and your responsibility to, the other person's rights, you know,

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their right to human flourishing,

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their right to thrive, their right to be in a community that really and truly

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cares about their health, cares about their well-being.

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So I think that the balance between those does hinge on, you know,

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the way that we look at freedom. Yeah.

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All right. So explain the concept of theologian as artist.

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Ah, yes. Oh, my goodness.

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I always think of my dad because I was raised by an artist, right?

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My father is truly, I love my dad so much.

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He just means everything to me. Um, and, and he, and he is funny enough.

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He, and I was born in the early seventies. So this is so funny.

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He is the first, the first like kind of real feminist that I,

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that I know of in the sense of he really, truly always from day one,

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he always was telling me, you know, you,

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you need to go as far as you can and do whatever you,

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you know, whatever, you know, that you are called to do and don't let anything hold you back.

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Nothing can hold you back. The fact that you're a woman, the fact that you're

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a Black woman, the fact that you, you know, your background included poverty,

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you know, nothing can hold you back.

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And he always, you know, taught me just the most beautiful things about,

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you know, what it means to be a Black woman in conjunction with my mama,

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because that's a bad Black woman right there, right?

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And so I think of him because as an artist, He really raised me.

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To really have this beautiful appreciation of art.

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And so from him, I understood the significance of art in how it really and truly

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can one invite us into possibilities, right?

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Because to me, that's one of the most beautiful significance about art is that

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it truly invites us into worlds, possible worlds that could be.

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And it invites us to actually show up in those worlds, in our best selves, as our best selves.

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And so for me, theologian as artists, because artists are those who create these

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worlds for us, to actually be inside of.

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I think as a theologianist artists, what I hope that I do is that I help people

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to see, you know, I help the moral imagination.

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I help people to imagine worlds that could be for us, you know,

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these worlds where what we really do, we really do practice love on a daily basis, you know,

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where we really do care for each other, where it's beyond that kind of superficial

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madness that a lot of our institutions are built on.

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But where we create these worlds, I really hope that, excuse me,

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I can be part of creating worlds that folks can live into.

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That's really, really beautiful. That's nice. Which kind of messes me up to

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ask you this question. In America, are we suffering from a moral deficit or

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a lack of commitment to ethics?

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I say both and. Excuse me, my finances are really not working with me today,

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but I definitely say both and.

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We really, I think there is a lack of political will, right,

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to really work for the thriving, the flourishing of all people.

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I do believe that that is absent among us, you know, as a society.

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And I don't know, I just really...

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I know that that lack of the will, the political will is there for many reasons, right?

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A lot of times, some people, we all have different responses to chaos because

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the way I see our current moment, there is just so much chaos.

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And every historical moment has its chaos, right?

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And so I know that some people, when they encounter chaos, their personality

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is such that they shut down and they go numb.

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Right. And it's kind of like a coping mechanism.

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And so it's the body. It is the body responding and really trying to kind of,

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you know, to hold itself, to comfort itself.

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Right. So so I get that. So I don't expect everybody to have the same response

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in the midst of the historical chaos that we are living, right?

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But then there is that reality of ethics and of folks not really truly living

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into what I consider a powerful love ethic.

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Like I'm telling you, every day, every day I try to meditate on love, right?

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Because there's so much fear swirling around.

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The fear and the hatred is swirling around. And that's a big part of the chaos

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that we are experiencing.

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And I know that if I do not every day make a conscious decision to meditate

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on love, on what it means, on how I can live it out, all of that.

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If I don't do that, I know I can get sucked in too, right? Like none of us are beyond the chaos.

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We are so evolved that we can, you know, just not have to worry about ever being sucked into the chaos.

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I am clear on my limitations.

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I am just absolutely clear on that. And so I think it is both and.

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But not as an indictment on, you know, the morality of people,

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but just it's because of the reality of the fact that we are just human and

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we have limitations and we need salvation.

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Like, you know, like the reality is, you know, because I always my grandmama

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used to always say, baby, we need Jesus, you know.

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And I'm like, yeah, grandmama was right.

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I'm telling you, oh, Lord. We think that is Christ's light, right?

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Like, because the word Christian has been soiled.

00:21:18.579 --> 00:21:24.719
But the love is central, and loving others dictates.

00:21:25.139 --> 00:21:26.639
That's it. Okay.

00:21:27.219 --> 00:21:31.879
That was powerful and very beautiful with that.

00:21:32.459 --> 00:21:38.799
There are some scholars that say the term Black church is a false one because

00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:43.899
it implies monolithic thought and identical makeup of congregations.

00:21:44.139 --> 00:21:49.119
I say the Black church is more about being a historical institution with traditions

00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:51.059
and a sense of community and refuge.

00:21:51.699 --> 00:21:55.059
So between the two of us, you're the expert in this discussion.

00:21:55.579 --> 00:21:58.499
Define the Black church for listeners.

00:21:59.789 --> 00:22:07.109
Yes. Well, I consider the Black church, excuse me, I'm definitely in agreement

00:22:07.109 --> 00:22:10.369
with you in terms of it is an institution, right?

00:22:11.349 --> 00:22:18.209
And it's an institution that actually came about not because it wanted to.

00:22:18.769 --> 00:22:23.969
Black people did not want to segregate themselves, you know,

00:22:24.149 --> 00:22:27.409
in the church, in the church broadly, in the church broadly.

00:22:27.409 --> 00:22:33.629
And so it was something that was, one scholar, I love how one scholar puts it,

00:22:33.789 --> 00:22:36.929
it was something that was forced into existence, right?

00:22:37.249 --> 00:22:43.829
And so it's an unfortunate kind of existence, right?

00:22:43.829 --> 00:22:50.709
The Black church was created in response to Black folk being marginalized,

00:22:50.709 --> 00:22:57.929
being mistreated within the broader church in America.

00:22:58.289 --> 00:23:04.749
And so, yes, it is definitely an institution that, yeah, it's true.

00:23:04.869 --> 00:23:08.869
It's definitely not a monolith. It's not at all. It's very diverse.

00:23:09.149 --> 00:23:12.429
And to me, that's the beauty of the Black church. And that's what I love about

00:23:12.429 --> 00:23:15.069
the Black church. Like studying it, you know, I had, I mean,

00:23:15.149 --> 00:23:19.409
I really had a beautiful opportunity when I was in graduate school.

00:23:19.769 --> 00:23:27.209
I went around the different churches and I sat there and enjoyed the,

00:23:27.209 --> 00:23:32.609
the, the diverse, you know, kind of very staid worship.

00:23:33.449 --> 00:23:39.849
But, but yeah, for me, the Black church is an institution forced,

00:23:40.029 --> 00:23:41.769
that was forced into existence.

00:23:42.989 --> 00:23:47.449
That has a powerful legacy of care.

00:23:48.311 --> 00:23:53.291
That, to me, is what is central about the Black church.

00:23:53.651 --> 00:23:56.691
It's that system, you know, locked out of the public health.

00:23:56.891 --> 00:24:03.591
So the Black church has this powerful legacy of caring for those who were locked

00:24:03.591 --> 00:24:08.971
out and marginalized because of racial discrimination in this nation.

00:24:09.011 --> 00:24:15.571
And so it does have a powerful love ethic that is grounded in care.

00:24:15.571 --> 00:24:18.831
And that's what I think is beautiful about the Black church.

00:24:19.151 --> 00:24:26.451
How can the Black church play a role in womanist ethics, which you define as

00:24:26.451 --> 00:24:30.671
a theoretical and social change framework that centers the history,

00:24:31.111 --> 00:24:37.611
everyday experiences, and spirituality of Black women as a way to approaching

00:24:37.611 --> 00:24:42.011
justice within health, science, medicine, religion, and the environment?

00:24:42.631 --> 00:24:47.051
Yes, thank you for asking that because, listen, so, you know,

00:24:47.131 --> 00:24:52.111
I got big love for the Black church, but, you know, big love also comes with

00:24:52.111 --> 00:24:56.831
big truth, right? You can't love somebody and not be truthful.

00:24:57.351 --> 00:25:04.951
Or you can, but it's not that deep, real love, right? So the truth of the Black

00:25:04.951 --> 00:25:09.991
church is that it also is a human institution, right?

00:25:10.311 --> 00:25:20.271
And so in that humanness of the institution, it has shortcomings, right?

00:25:20.531 --> 00:25:26.571
And so the Black church, it has done a lot.

00:25:27.435 --> 00:25:33.175
And it's been a lot of things for marginalized, oppressed people throughout history.

00:25:33.555 --> 00:25:41.815
But at the same time, it itself has a hand in the same kind of marginalization, right?

00:25:42.055 --> 00:25:52.135
So the Black church has also fallen short when it comes to including women in

00:25:52.135 --> 00:25:53.375
leadership, for instance.

00:25:53.575 --> 00:25:57.455
Now, there are some Black churches who, they got it locked. they doing it.

00:25:57.575 --> 00:25:58.915
They're letting sisters lead.

00:25:59.095 --> 00:26:03.015
They're letting sisters stand in the pulpit and preach and all of that, right?

00:26:03.275 --> 00:26:10.395
But because it is such a diverse institution, that is not the way it is all the way throughout.

00:26:10.655 --> 00:26:16.515
And it's still a struggle with theology in the Black church, right?

00:26:17.135 --> 00:26:24.515
Theology being that thing that dictates what people believe about our relationship

00:26:24.515 --> 00:26:27.175
to one another, as well as our relationship to God, right?

00:26:27.395 --> 00:26:33.875
And so there are some real shortfalls when it comes to theology,

00:26:33.875 --> 00:26:40.575
right, about women and their bodies and the significance thereof.

00:26:41.035 --> 00:26:47.835
And so, yeah, so the Black church, as beautiful as it is and can be,

00:26:47.995 --> 00:26:50.755
it definitely has some limitations and that's

00:26:50.755 --> 00:26:53.955
the power in womanist bioethics womanism

00:26:53.955 --> 00:27:01.355
really and truly does it looks at the black church and beautifully what it has

00:27:01.355 --> 00:27:06.995
done yes but then what it has left undone you know and it allows that it allows

00:27:06.995 --> 00:27:11.075
that critique that that loving critique yes yeah yeah,

00:27:11.628 --> 00:27:17.228
So I know that when I was growing up, I tell people I grew up Lutheran,

00:27:17.648 --> 00:27:23.248
but, but if, but what people at Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, by the way,

00:27:23.588 --> 00:27:32.708
but what people don't really gather is that we were a black church through and through.

00:27:32.708 --> 00:27:40.308
It was like you know it was like you know we had people giving testimony we had a gospel choir.

00:27:41.048 --> 00:27:45.728
You know but but we were in that lutheran framework so it's like you know our

00:27:45.728 --> 00:27:51.668
church service it wouldn't be long but you know compared to traditional black

00:27:51.668 --> 00:27:57.168
churches i call them but you know if the pastor was feeling one we were going to be there for a minute,

00:27:58.008 --> 00:28:04.228
But, you know, it was Lutheran in the sense that women were not in leadership positions.

00:28:05.228 --> 00:28:09.408
There was no way we was going to have a female, not in the Missouri Senate,

00:28:09.428 --> 00:28:12.928
we were going to have a female pastor leading the congregation or,

00:28:13.208 --> 00:28:19.768
you know, we were going to address issues in the community. Right.

00:28:20.328 --> 00:28:25.868
It was, you know, our biggest thing when I was growing up was still about civil

00:28:25.868 --> 00:28:29.768
rights and and all that now.

00:28:30.848 --> 00:28:37.228
Coming back to the church from time to time, you know, I have seen that they

00:28:37.228 --> 00:28:42.528
have addressed issues that are more contemporary with what's going on.

00:28:42.908 --> 00:28:52.648
But but it's been a slow pull because, you know, the black church is rooted in the South.

00:28:53.208 --> 00:28:57.528
And so if you know anything about Chicago, Illinois, you know,

00:28:57.648 --> 00:29:01.928
that was the magnet from the south, especially from Mississippi.

00:29:01.928 --> 00:29:04.188
It was like a direct pipeline from Mississippi.

00:29:04.448 --> 00:29:11.748
So it was just it's it was really hard to get some of those southern traditions

00:29:11.748 --> 00:29:15.228
out of the way so that you could deal with modern stuff.

00:29:15.608 --> 00:29:21.228
Kind of you're from Alabama, right? Just kind of talk about are you know, you're from Florida.

00:29:22.028 --> 00:29:26.608
You're from Florida, but you did a lot of your graduate work and stuff in Alabama.

00:29:26.888 --> 00:29:28.768
So you know the South very well.

00:29:29.368 --> 00:29:33.748
Just kind of, you know, break it down to folks what I'm talking about when I

00:29:33.748 --> 00:29:39.128
say that Southern tradition as opposed to where we are in this modern world.

00:29:39.948 --> 00:29:41.508
Yes. Yeah.

00:29:42.988 --> 00:29:48.408
The roots of the Black church are definitely deeply, deeply,

00:29:48.568 --> 00:29:51.088
deeply in the deep South, right?

00:29:51.228 --> 00:29:56.748
Because a lot of times, you know, back on slave plantations,

00:29:57.088 --> 00:30:02.928
the Black church literally grew from the, what we call the hush harbors, right?

00:30:03.328 --> 00:30:05.148
Because Black folks were not

00:30:05.148 --> 00:30:13.268
allowed to gather, what they would do is they would go to a hush harbor.

00:30:13.268 --> 00:30:18.868
Where they would sneak off and gather on the plantation or a little bit away

00:30:18.868 --> 00:30:25.568
from the plantation and have those services where they could worship God.

00:30:26.328 --> 00:30:30.228
And where they could worship God,

00:30:30.992 --> 00:30:34.932
that the God, not the God of the slave Bible, because, you know,

00:30:35.192 --> 00:30:36.532
there's a slave Bible, right?

00:30:36.772 --> 00:30:44.732
That is lacking so much of the scriptures about liberation, about freedom, about...

00:30:45.372 --> 00:30:52.292
And so they went away where they could worship a God that they knew was on the

00:30:52.292 --> 00:30:57.892
side of the oppressed and a God that they knew in spite of what the slave master said,

00:30:57.892 --> 00:31:02.452
It was a God that they knew who really did want their freedom.

00:31:03.232 --> 00:31:10.712
And so, yeah, so that is like that beautiful, beautiful seed of the Black church

00:31:10.712 --> 00:31:17.852
in those hush harbors, you know, during slavery, it really did flourish.

00:31:18.432 --> 00:31:20.472
And I think that is what empowered the

00:31:20.472 --> 00:31:27.312
Black people to not stand for that discrimination within the house of God.

00:31:27.312 --> 00:31:30.992
And that's why they say, ah, no, no, no, no, no, no. We are going to worship

00:31:30.992 --> 00:31:33.552
where our dignity will be respected,

00:31:33.552 --> 00:31:43.832
where we know that we can fully flourish as children of God and not live into

00:31:43.832 --> 00:31:48.712
this lie that we are not human and not worthy of God's love.

00:31:49.072 --> 00:31:59.132
So, yeah, so that you are so right. those deep Southern roots are so significant. And really, I think,

00:31:59.817 --> 00:32:08.277
sprouted something that now is beautiful. And yes, now churches are trying to

00:32:08.277 --> 00:32:09.877
step up to the plate, right?

00:32:10.057 --> 00:32:15.737
Churches are really trying to address the very real issues that marginalized

00:32:15.737 --> 00:32:18.917
folks are facing in the world today.

00:32:19.497 --> 00:32:24.557
And that's one of the things that, honestly, that's one of the more powerful

00:32:24.557 --> 00:32:29.037
things that's also keeping myself and a whole lot of other folks from giving

00:32:29.037 --> 00:32:30.157
up on the Black church, right?

00:32:31.077 --> 00:32:40.437
We realize, okay, yes, it is an institution very much in its humanness, run by humans,

00:32:40.657 --> 00:32:45.657
that really and truly has its limitations,

00:32:45.657 --> 00:32:53.297
but folks really are trying to heed the call of God to love,

00:32:53.297 --> 00:32:58.837
to really love and care for one another and to try to create,

00:32:59.417 --> 00:33:04.737
create that kind of environment where folks can flourish, truly,

00:33:04.957 --> 00:33:07.837
truly flourish. Yeah. Yeah.

00:33:08.497 --> 00:33:14.137
So piggybacking on that, historically, the Black church has been a catalyst

00:33:14.137 --> 00:33:18.617
for economic development and political activism in America.

00:33:19.257 --> 00:33:26.977
Which role is most needed for Black America from the Black church in the 21st

00:33:26.977 --> 00:33:28.097
century, in your opinion?

00:33:28.677 --> 00:33:31.257
That is a great question. My goodness.

00:33:32.577 --> 00:33:36.477
Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I am tempted to say,

00:33:36.737 --> 00:33:38.717
again, the both ends, right?

00:33:39.397 --> 00:33:42.857
Because I swear that's not a cop-out, I promise you.

00:33:44.397 --> 00:33:49.597
Because I'm the kind of person that, you know, I'm really holistic or try to

00:33:49.597 --> 00:33:51.617
be holistic in my thinking.

00:33:52.850 --> 00:33:59.610
And so, full disclosure, I started out as a social scientist, right?

00:33:59.690 --> 00:34:02.950
So I was trained in, you know, agricultural economics.

00:34:03.230 --> 00:34:07.350
And so when I came out of graduate school, I just knew.

00:34:07.570 --> 00:34:11.330
I was like, all right, we got to do economic development and we got to focus.

00:34:11.470 --> 00:34:14.170
The Black church has to absolutely focus on economic development.

00:34:14.870 --> 00:34:19.310
And that was the one thing I was just clear on, right?

00:34:19.950 --> 00:34:25.750
But then as I was in the heart of the black belt in Tuskegee,

00:34:25.930 --> 00:34:32.590
Alabama, doing my research, looking at the role of the church in economic development,

00:34:32.590 --> 00:34:34.830
I realized, I was like, wait a minute.

00:34:35.538 --> 00:34:39.978
People are sick. People are suffering from chronic diseases.

00:34:40.278 --> 00:34:44.558
They are suffering, you know, from, you know, folks had diabetes,

00:34:45.158 --> 00:34:46.798
you know, folks had hypertension, folks.

00:34:46.998 --> 00:34:53.838
There are all kinds of, you know, chronic ailments that resulted in disabilities.

00:34:54.558 --> 00:35:01.018
So folks couldn't work. Right. And so the Black Belt, being in the Black Belt

00:35:01.018 --> 00:35:08.998
and seeing what a lack of access to health care actually means for rural populations.

00:35:09.658 --> 00:35:14.938
Wow. That really made me think beyond, you know, economic development.

00:35:14.938 --> 00:35:20.198
It's still super important. And I still hold out that we cannot thrive without

00:35:20.198 --> 00:35:24.318
that. But it helped me to really look at the fact that, you know,

00:35:24.458 --> 00:35:26.918
how are we doing economics?

00:35:28.178 --> 00:35:32.178
Because there are so many ways to do economics, as everybody knows, right?

00:35:32.378 --> 00:35:35.498
People know we have capitalism, socialism, you know, we have communism,

00:35:35.658 --> 00:35:41.458
we have all kind of ways of doing this thing called economics as societies,

00:35:42.038 --> 00:35:43.518
you know, as communities.

00:35:43.518 --> 00:35:47.518
But I really realized that, you

00:35:47.518 --> 00:35:53.578
know, we have to go beyond economics to really even an economy of care,

00:35:53.758 --> 00:36:00.478
right, where we really and truly first and foremost compensating those who are

00:36:00.478 --> 00:36:02.278
doing care work in our communities.

00:36:02.278 --> 00:36:06.698
Because there are a lot of, you know, grandmothers, a lot of mothers,

00:36:06.718 --> 00:36:12.558
and nowadays, even dads, people are doing care work in their homes for which

00:36:12.558 --> 00:36:15.918
we don't really value as a society.

00:36:16.918 --> 00:36:21.218
Therefore, you know, there's no real kind of important compensation for people

00:36:21.218 --> 00:36:25.178
doing that work and lack of a real support and all of that.

00:36:25.897 --> 00:36:32.157
So, yeah, so I think that we really do need to kind of rethink what we're doing

00:36:32.157 --> 00:36:35.317
in terms of our kind of economic systems.

00:36:36.037 --> 00:36:43.937
But we also need to expand beyond that because the political is not separate

00:36:43.937 --> 00:36:47.057
from anything that we do in life, right?

00:36:47.177 --> 00:36:51.737
Whether it's economic, whatever we do, it's not separate.

00:36:51.737 --> 00:36:55.357
So we really do need to, and I think nowadays,

00:36:55.617 --> 00:36:58.997
we need to train people, our young generation,

00:36:58.997 --> 00:37:06.557
we need to train them on policies and policy development and how our policies

00:37:06.557 --> 00:37:12.457
develop and what does it mean for you to have a voice about the kinds of policies

00:37:12.457 --> 00:37:15.357
that are going to affect your own community,

00:37:15.357 --> 00:37:18.537
where people work, live, play, all that.

00:37:18.537 --> 00:37:24.417
You know, we really and truly, I think we have to invest in our young people

00:37:24.417 --> 00:37:31.737
in that way so that they will understand these kinds of connections, right?

00:37:32.658 --> 00:37:36.318
Because, yeah, because to me, that's that's that's the only way that things

00:37:36.318 --> 00:37:40.158
will really change is that we do both and and not kind of, you know,

00:37:40.218 --> 00:37:44.738
do one without regard for it for the other when it comes to the. Yeah.

00:37:45.538 --> 00:37:49.638
Yeah. So what you just said is one of those things in the black church where

00:37:49.638 --> 00:37:51.378
a pastor would say, amen, lights.

00:37:51.518 --> 00:37:54.458
Right. If he's not getting a response he wants or it's like,

00:37:54.518 --> 00:37:57.078
you know, say a little louder so the folks in the back can hear it.

00:37:57.078 --> 00:37:58.918
That was pretty profound.

00:37:59.178 --> 00:38:04.178
And then basically to break it down, when you say the word holistic,

00:38:04.178 --> 00:38:09.618
I like to I like to make the equation that we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

00:38:09.618 --> 00:38:15.558
I think that, you know, we can fulfill these roles to deal with economic development

00:38:15.558 --> 00:38:16.678
through the black church.

00:38:16.938 --> 00:38:20.538
We can deal with politics continuously through the black church.

00:38:20.698 --> 00:38:24.218
We can deal with health care and especially what you were focused on,

00:38:24.438 --> 00:38:28.978
you know, health care for black women through the black church.

00:38:29.478 --> 00:38:34.698
You know, a lot of people I'm old enough to remember burial associations. Right.

00:38:35.298 --> 00:38:42.018
And and my my my great aunt. It was like this guy would come and,

00:38:42.018 --> 00:38:46.318
you know, and she had this little book and she would pay him and then she would

00:38:46.318 --> 00:38:49.258
mark it down on the book that she paid him on such as.

00:38:49.358 --> 00:38:52.738
And then he would mark it in his book and then he'd go on to the next place.

00:38:52.898 --> 00:38:57.738
You know, that came out of the black church, you know, mutual aid, all that stuff.

00:38:58.078 --> 00:39:04.618
Yeah. So a lot of, you know, as down as people are about the church, especially.

00:39:05.868 --> 00:39:11.728
Younger people in this day and age, I think, you know, and just the way that

00:39:11.728 --> 00:39:14.928
politics has kind of corrupted religion,

00:39:15.088 --> 00:39:18.768
especially from a Christian standpoint, I think you can make an argument if,

00:39:18.888 --> 00:39:23.168
you know, if you're, if you're in Islam or if you're in Judaism,

00:39:23.428 --> 00:39:29.488
but, but definitely those of us that are Christian, politics has corrupted that.

00:39:29.488 --> 00:39:33.528
So people have a negative taste in their mouth, but, you know,

00:39:33.688 --> 00:39:39.808
the black, if it wasn't for the black church, I could do a whole other soapbox on that.

00:39:39.888 --> 00:39:43.608
So I'm going to contain myself because I need to go ahead and close this out.

00:39:43.768 --> 00:39:47.948
But, but there's a question I'm going to ask you that I've asked some other

00:39:47.948 --> 00:39:53.188
guests that are very, if they're not leaders in religion, they're very,

00:39:53.348 --> 00:39:58.708
very open with their faith and, and they're very political people.

00:39:58.708 --> 00:40:01.908
And so I felt like I needed to ask him this question.

00:40:02.088 --> 00:40:04.868
And so I'm going to ask you the same one.

00:40:05.108 --> 00:40:10.708
When all is said and done, which concept will have suffered the most damage

00:40:10.708 --> 00:40:15.068
in America, democracy or organized religion?

00:40:17.614 --> 00:40:20.954
Oh, man, that is a good question and a very hard question.

00:40:22.034 --> 00:40:27.094
Oh, my goodness. Because I'm looking at how both of them. Oh, my gosh.

00:40:27.654 --> 00:40:34.254
I mean, I honestly, I honestly look at the fact that because I was born in the early 70s.

00:40:34.394 --> 00:40:36.194
Right. And so.

00:40:36.914 --> 00:40:41.474
And I know that democracy is still young in this nation. You know,

00:40:41.554 --> 00:40:44.714
it's just a very it's a it's a young we're a young nation.

00:40:44.974 --> 00:40:50.014
One, two, democracy is a very young concept for us.

00:40:50.134 --> 00:40:57.034
It's a young experiment because let's let's be honest, it's truly from day one, it was an experiment.

00:40:57.374 --> 00:41:03.734
And I think that the experiment where we are in this experiment right now.

00:41:03.734 --> 00:41:13.354
Is we're in a place, we're just in a place of, I think, deep tragedy.

00:41:14.555 --> 00:41:19.595
We have gone off the rails in this experiment of democracy.

00:41:20.135 --> 00:41:24.575
And it's so disheartening to see where we are.

00:41:25.235 --> 00:41:33.235
Because I think a lot of times when we think about history, because I used to

00:41:33.235 --> 00:41:37.135
think of history on this straight line of progress, right?

00:41:37.635 --> 00:41:41.275
Kind of this linear kind of progression. but now

00:41:41.275 --> 00:41:45.835
I am absolutely clear that

00:41:45.835 --> 00:41:48.755
history is more of a you remember

00:41:48.755 --> 00:41:51.475
slinkies you know kind of that it was a

00:41:51.475 --> 00:41:54.515
spiral right so history is more

00:41:54.515 --> 00:41:57.875
like a slinky I'm old I told y'all I was old school and so

00:41:57.875 --> 00:42:01.915
but you know that's like a coil right and

00:42:01.915 --> 00:42:04.895
it's kind of this spiral so on the coil you

00:42:04.895 --> 00:42:07.575
have your dips your low low lows but then it

00:42:07.575 --> 00:42:10.415
goes back up to the high high high

00:42:10.415 --> 00:42:15.215
point and it dips back down you know that's what a coil does and that's now

00:42:15.215 --> 00:42:22.435
how i see history right because we we have humanity has so many beautiful highs

00:42:22.435 --> 00:42:27.935
and god help us we have too many lows right um.

00:42:29.067 --> 00:42:35.507
To have all of the doggone sense that we have, right, to have all this knowledge,

00:42:35.507 --> 00:42:41.327
to have all of the quote unquote what we call technological progress and all this,

00:42:41.527 --> 00:42:45.687
it makes no sense to have the kind of lows that we have.

00:42:46.347 --> 00:42:51.507
And that is what is disheartening to me, particularly when it comes to this

00:42:51.507 --> 00:42:53.907
experiment called democracy.

00:42:54.967 --> 00:43:02.147
And definitely organized religion, yes, has taken a huge blow because we have

00:43:02.147 --> 00:43:09.347
truly cheapened the name of God.

00:43:09.347 --> 00:43:24.347
We have literally made faith something that is a tool A tool of so many awful things, right?

00:43:24.547 --> 00:43:30.727
A tool of hatred, a tool of fear All of these things that we have used,

00:43:31.786 --> 00:43:35.166
And now this democratic experiment, right,

00:43:35.406 --> 00:43:42.786
that has been the tool used in getting us to this place of tragedy and breaking

00:43:42.786 --> 00:43:47.586
down, you know, the breaking down of this democratic experiment.

00:43:48.546 --> 00:43:58.866
And so where I am not a pessimist, I call myself more of a realist and optimist, right?

00:44:00.626 --> 00:44:06.786
The optimist part comes not from some superficial kind of, I just want to think

00:44:06.786 --> 00:44:12.386
that everything's going to be okay, but it really does come from a sincere place of hope.

00:44:13.766 --> 00:44:22.786
Because one, I do believe that, you know, we are stronger than,

00:44:22.986 --> 00:44:26.166
because of the God that is in us, right?

00:44:26.326 --> 00:44:30.106
We are stronger than the tragedy that we face, right?

00:44:30.346 --> 00:44:36.466
And so my hope comes in that, and my hope comes in the ancestors.

00:44:36.686 --> 00:44:41.586
They have, I mean, just looking back at my ancestors, We wouldn't be here if

00:44:41.586 --> 00:44:46.826
folks who were enslaved did not pray for us and dream about us.

00:44:46.966 --> 00:44:50.446
And so I am so hopeful because I said, my God,

00:44:50.826 --> 00:44:57.726
I myself am here because of the folk that came before me,

00:44:57.866 --> 00:45:04.506
who truly, they knew, they had this deep sense of knowing that I would be here

00:45:04.506 --> 00:45:11.726
And that I myself would have enough faith and enough hope to put it all on the

00:45:11.726 --> 00:45:16.126
line for those folks who come in behind me, you know?

00:45:16.446 --> 00:45:26.466
And so I get excited about that in the face of the tragedy, in the face of our absolute limitations.

00:45:27.206 --> 00:45:29.206
Yeah. Yeah. So...

00:45:30.489 --> 00:45:35.769
You're basically saying that black people are the true testimony of the prayers

00:45:35.769 --> 00:45:38.049
of the righteous available for much. Right.

00:45:38.529 --> 00:45:44.809
Yeah. Yeah. And, and I love the way that the slinky is a really,

00:45:44.969 --> 00:45:49.829
really great analogy because the, the, yeah,

00:45:50.049 --> 00:45:52.889
we, you have the coils, but the, the appeal of

00:45:52.889 --> 00:45:56.369
the sink slinky is the physics of the slinky is

00:45:56.369 --> 00:45:59.049
that it is always when you

00:45:59.049 --> 00:46:02.969
put it down it starts moving forward it

00:46:02.969 --> 00:46:06.349
doesn't go backwards it moves say that and so

00:46:06.349 --> 00:46:09.269
and then the coils itself gives it

00:46:09.269 --> 00:46:12.309
strength right so i i

00:46:12.309 --> 00:46:16.449
love i love that i love that and now you're preaching now you're preaching now

00:46:16.449 --> 00:46:25.209
you got me over here doing the whole the whole the stories i could tell you

00:46:25.209 --> 00:46:30.969
about how people used to mistake my politics for Preaching is scary, but, uh,

00:46:31.669 --> 00:46:35.789
but look, and so I'm glad, and, you know, and, and it's all right to have this

00:46:35.789 --> 00:46:41.009
pragmatic optimism about things, you know, that you don't get too.

00:46:41.931 --> 00:46:47.891
I think when we're younger, it's altruism because it's like there's nothing

00:46:47.891 --> 00:46:50.291
that we look at and say, oh, we can't do.

00:46:50.551 --> 00:46:55.451
And then as we get older, we realize we do have limitations,

00:46:55.451 --> 00:47:00.911
but we still have hope that we can overcome those limitations at time.

00:47:00.911 --> 00:47:05.271
That's the reason why we like sports, I think, as human beings.

00:47:06.011 --> 00:47:13.711
Yeah. Because people, whether it's a daily basis like basketball or baseball

00:47:13.711 --> 00:47:15.531
or a weekly basis like football,

00:47:15.691 --> 00:47:22.071
you see those moments where somebody exceeds their limitations, right? Yes.

00:47:22.611 --> 00:47:26.191
And achieves something. And we're hoping that it's somebody from our team.

00:47:26.831 --> 00:47:28.531
That's right. Right?

00:47:29.331 --> 00:47:35.211
Yeah. Yeah, so I think that was really cool. So I think that's a cool way to end this.

00:47:35.591 --> 00:47:40.651
So outside of enrolling at Duke University to attend any of your classes,

00:47:40.651 --> 00:47:45.431
how can people reach out to you? How can they buy your books?

00:47:45.871 --> 00:47:51.691
This is the time where you go ahead and make your, I don't want to say pitch

00:47:51.691 --> 00:47:54.591
per se, but yeah, just tell people how they can reach out to you.

00:47:55.291 --> 00:48:01.191
Yeah, thank you. So they can find my book, Womanist Bioethics,

00:48:01.331 --> 00:48:06.431
Social Justice, Spirituality, and Black Women's Health on Amazon.com.

00:48:06.531 --> 00:48:14.671
They can also find it on LaurenNobel.com, but you can also connect WylinDWilson.com as well.

00:48:14.851 --> 00:48:18.591
And I am on Instagram and LinkedIn. I forgot.

00:48:21.011 --> 00:48:24.411
Dr. Wilson, I greatly enjoyed this conversation.

00:48:24.831 --> 00:48:30.531
And one of my rules is that, you know, once you've been on, you have an open

00:48:30.531 --> 00:48:31.711
invitation to come back.

00:48:31.931 --> 00:48:36.631
So that means that if there's something that you feel you need to talk about,

00:48:36.831 --> 00:48:39.211
you can reach out to me and we'll get you on.

00:48:39.211 --> 00:48:42.791
But i i really enjoyed talking

00:48:42.791 --> 00:48:45.631
with you and i wish you much

00:48:45.631 --> 00:48:49.471
success on the book and much continued success and you

00:48:49.471 --> 00:48:55.991
shaping young minds and guiding people toward that hope that we both believe

00:48:55.991 --> 00:49:02.251
is out there thank you so much this has been absolute it's just absolute joy

00:49:02.251 --> 00:49:07.071
for me so i appreciate you having me thank you all right guys and we're going to.

00:49:27.386 --> 00:49:34.066
All right. And we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Dr. Terry Givens.

00:49:34.426 --> 00:49:40.306
Dr. Terri Givens is a professor of political science at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver.

00:49:40.646 --> 00:49:46.406
She was the provost advisor on the strategy to address anti-black racism at

00:49:46.406 --> 00:49:52.186
McGill University from 2021 to 2024, where she supported the provost office,

00:49:53.046 --> 00:49:59.626
office's work to increase the hiring of and support for Black faculty, staff, and students.

00:49:59.986 --> 00:50:05.086
She is formerly the CEO of the Center for Higher Education Leadership and has

00:50:05.086 --> 00:50:09.846
worked with a variety of colleges, universities, and ed tech companies on issues

00:50:09.846 --> 00:50:12.866
related to innovation and excellence in higher education.

00:50:13.146 --> 00:50:17.986
As the author of the book, Radical Empathy, Finding a Path to Bridging Racial

00:50:17.986 --> 00:50:24.866
Divides, she is a sought-after consultant and speaker on issues related to leadership and inclusion.

00:50:25.066 --> 00:50:28.526
She has more than 30 years of experience in higher education,

00:50:28.926 --> 00:50:31.986
politics, international affairs, and nonprofits.

00:50:32.326 --> 00:50:37.246
She is an accomplished speaker and uses her platform to develop leaders with

00:50:37.246 --> 00:50:41.346
an understanding of the importance of diversity and inclusion while encouraging

00:50:41.346 --> 00:50:43.326
personal growth through empathy.

00:50:44.498 --> 00:50:49.218
Dr. Terri has held leadership positions as vice provost at the University of

00:50:49.218 --> 00:50:55.058
Texas at Austin and provost at Menlo College, as well as professorships at the

00:50:55.058 --> 00:50:58.638
University of Texas at Austin and the University of Washington.

00:50:58.858 --> 00:51:03.398
She was the founding director at the Center for European Studies at the University

00:51:03.398 --> 00:51:07.918
of Texas and led the university's efforts in Mexico and Latin America as vice

00:51:07.918 --> 00:51:12.198
provost for international activities, as well as curriculum development.

00:51:12.198 --> 00:51:16.318
She has worked with a variety of organizations at the international level,

00:51:16.518 --> 00:51:21.878
including the German Marshall Fund, attending the annual Brussels Forum, U.S.

00:51:22.118 --> 00:51:26.738
State Department, Transatlantic Inclusion Leaders, and the Helsinki Commission.

00:51:27.458 --> 00:51:31.858
Terry is the author, editor of books and articles on immigration policy,

00:51:32.378 --> 00:51:34.718
European politics, and right-wing politics.

00:51:34.718 --> 00:51:40.478
Her most recent books, again, Radical Empathy, Finding a Path to Bridging Racial

00:51:40.478 --> 00:51:46.358
Divides, and The Roots of Racism, The Politics of White Supremacy in the U.S.

00:51:46.378 --> 00:51:50.838
And Europe, were both published by, well, no, I take that back,

00:51:51.538 --> 00:51:56.238
were published by Policy Press and Bristol University Press, respectively.

00:51:56.238 --> 00:52:02.158
Her book, Reckoning, Creating Positive Change Through Radical Empathy, is forthcoming.

00:52:02.498 --> 00:52:06.838
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:52:06.838 --> 00:52:09.838
on this podcast, Dr. Terri Givens.

00:52:21.522 --> 00:52:25.762
All right. Dr. Terri Givens. How are you doing, sister? You doing good?

00:52:26.442 --> 00:52:31.462
I'm doing much better because we've had some wins in the last week.

00:52:31.702 --> 00:52:35.842
But yeah, as a clinical scientist, yes, it's been a good week.

00:52:36.322 --> 00:52:41.902
Okay. All right. And I'm going to pick your brain about that in a minute.

00:52:41.902 --> 00:52:45.862
But what I normally do is that I start off with some icebreakers.

00:52:46.902 --> 00:52:52.702
And the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to And the quote is

00:52:52.702 --> 00:52:58.822
Addressing bias is not just a personal choice It is a social agenda,

00:52:58.822 --> 00:53:02.142
a moral stance What does that quote mean to you?

00:53:02.961 --> 00:53:11.001
I get chills when I hear that quote because it's just so integral to how I feel

00:53:11.001 --> 00:53:15.401
about things like dealing with societal issues.

00:53:15.621 --> 00:53:20.221
Bias is inherent in so many aspects of our society.

00:53:20.461 --> 00:53:24.641
And to me, it's really critical. That's why I wrote my book,

00:53:24.841 --> 00:53:29.621
basically, is because so often we don't recognize our bias.

00:53:29.621 --> 00:53:38.001
And so to me, that is at the core of what motivated my book, Radical Empathy.

00:53:38.881 --> 00:53:42.961
Yeah. All right. So now the next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions.

00:53:43.501 --> 00:53:47.621
So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

00:53:48.441 --> 00:53:56.441
13. Okay. Do you think there is such a thing as unbiased news or media and why? No.

00:53:57.281 --> 00:54:03.961
Media is designed to be biased. And I know that from my own research and from

00:54:03.961 --> 00:54:06.421
the research of many of my colleagues in political science.

00:54:06.621 --> 00:54:11.721
And historically, you know, the media has been owned by wealthy people.

00:54:12.641 --> 00:54:18.161
And it is often, as we see today, used as propaganda.

00:54:18.581 --> 00:54:22.961
So, no, I don't think there's any media because we all have bias,

00:54:23.081 --> 00:54:24.981
but that's a whole, you know, that's a separate thing.

00:54:25.161 --> 00:54:33.821
I think media, even those like NPR that try to be unbiased still have a bias in many ways. Yeah.

00:54:34.941 --> 00:54:40.501
And like you said, we can go off on a whole tangent about, about bias in the

00:54:40.501 --> 00:54:42.241
media and even why that is.

00:54:42.401 --> 00:54:45.861
But like you said, we won't, we won't go down that rabbit hole.

00:54:47.101 --> 00:54:50.941
So you started off by saying that you were pleased.

00:54:50.981 --> 00:54:55.661
How did you view the recent protests and the election results?

00:54:56.543 --> 00:55:02.323
It's been really interesting to see that basically a lot of African-Americans

00:55:02.323 --> 00:55:07.903
aren't protesting out there because we know we always put our bodies on the line.

00:55:08.143 --> 00:55:13.563
Right. And this is one time when it's really important that our allies and basically

00:55:13.563 --> 00:55:20.083
white people are out there because this is their battle, even in as much as it is ours.

00:55:20.823 --> 00:55:25.523
So the election results, I think, are a reflection of the activism that has

00:55:25.523 --> 00:55:31.403
been going on because we're seeing voter turnouts higher than is usual for a midterm election.

00:55:31.743 --> 00:55:34.503
And I also think that it's really fascinating.

00:55:36.043 --> 00:55:39.323
We're just getting the results in in terms of the breakdowns.

00:55:39.443 --> 00:55:44.363
But as I said, African-Americans haven't been on the front lines of the protests,

00:55:44.503 --> 00:55:46.103
but they're voting. Right.

00:55:46.383 --> 00:55:52.223
And much higher percentages than you might expect at this point in the presidential term.

00:55:52.463 --> 00:55:59.343
So I'm very encouraged by the fact that black people are showing up where it

00:55:59.343 --> 00:56:05.563
matters, which is at the ballot box and actually changing the outcomes of some elections.

00:56:05.563 --> 00:56:08.163
Because I believe it was Spanberger's election.

00:56:08.503 --> 00:56:13.223
She didn't get a majority of the white vote, but she got a majority of the Hispanic and black.

00:56:13.543 --> 00:56:18.523
And, you know, I put minority in quotes because we aren't really the minority,

00:56:18.523 --> 00:56:21.563
but she got the most of that vote.

00:56:21.803 --> 00:56:28.023
And so it is clear that we still have an important role to play in these electoral outcomes.

00:56:29.163 --> 00:56:35.483
Yeah. So were you most surprised with Mikie Sherrill's,

00:56:36.378 --> 00:56:41.758
victory or the amount of a cushion that she had?

00:56:41.938 --> 00:56:48.578
Or were you surprised, more surprised about the turnout in California for just a proposition?

00:56:48.778 --> 00:56:51.998
Which one kind of, as a political science, kind of intrigued you to mind?

00:56:52.978 --> 00:56:58.818
Gosh, that's hard to say. I think I would say the turnout in California,

00:56:58.838 --> 00:57:05.958
because I feel like California has been, you know,

00:57:06.258 --> 00:57:09.918
really rejuvenated in many ways, because we've had, you know,

00:57:10.018 --> 00:57:12.078
Democrats in power for a long time.

00:57:12.538 --> 00:57:16.178
And so that tends to tampen down the vote.

00:57:16.358 --> 00:57:21.498
And this was something that it wasn't clear how people would respond initially.

00:57:21.498 --> 00:57:26.238
But as you saw the momentum building, and basically the GOP gave up in the last

00:57:26.238 --> 00:57:30.138
couple weeks, even trying to counter it because they saw that this was going to be a tidal wave.

00:57:31.138 --> 00:57:35.798
So when they first announced it, I was a little worried.

00:57:35.958 --> 00:57:39.798
But as it went along week by week and Governor Newsom has been out there on

00:57:39.798 --> 00:57:45.158
the front lines pushing it and mocking Trump and all of that,

00:57:45.658 --> 00:57:50.658
I'm really glad to see people were so engaged and voted.

00:57:51.058 --> 00:57:53.858
And of course, we have mail-in ballots. I vote in California.

00:57:54.538 --> 00:58:00.218
And so I mailed in my ballot and it makes it so easy, which is why the Republicans

00:58:00.218 --> 00:58:01.758
want to get rid of mail-in voting.

00:58:02.521 --> 00:58:09.701
Yeah. I, you know, I wasn't really too shocked about the turnout in California

00:58:09.701 --> 00:58:15.241
because of the, the money that was spent even before the Republicans retreated.

00:58:15.321 --> 00:58:18.821
I mean, they put Arnold Schwarzenegger out there and rightfully so,

00:58:18.921 --> 00:58:21.481
because he was the governor that pushed for the commissions.

00:58:21.821 --> 00:58:25.661
Right. So that would be the natural person.

00:58:25.801 --> 00:58:28.641
I would want the spokesman to say no against it. Right. But,

00:58:28.841 --> 00:58:33.821
you know, the money that they spent and it was just just that laser focus,

00:58:34.281 --> 00:58:39.141
I just kind of felt that people were going to show up and vote for the proposition.

00:58:40.081 --> 00:58:44.781
Now, Mikie Sherrill in New Jersey, you know, all the, and I don't,

00:58:44.781 --> 00:58:46.981
I don't really have tentacles in New Jersey.

00:58:47.141 --> 00:58:51.501
I got a couple of friends, but they were not real thrilled about the way she

00:58:51.501 --> 00:58:55.941
was running her campaign. They were like hoping, can we get Roz Baraka back

00:58:55.941 --> 00:58:57.861
on the ballot? Can we make this happen? Right.

00:58:58.621 --> 00:59:03.561
But, you know, but then she beat the brakes off of him And I guess I shouldn't

00:59:03.561 --> 00:59:07.661
have been that surprised because Citarelli has run. This is his third time.

00:59:08.181 --> 00:59:12.701
And there's always that diminishing returns every time you run for the same

00:59:12.701 --> 00:59:15.941
position over and over that people kind of get.

00:59:16.081 --> 00:59:20.401
Yeah, you're a perennial candidate. You're not really serious and all that.

00:59:20.521 --> 00:59:25.421
So I think maybe that played in more so why she had such a big gap than,

00:59:25.441 --> 00:59:27.701
you know, a lot of anticipated.

00:59:28.447 --> 00:59:32.127
I wouldn't discount, though, the fact that New Jersey is right next to New York

00:59:32.127 --> 00:59:37.927
and that people were more energized on the Democratic side because of what they

00:59:37.927 --> 00:59:39.627
saw happening in New York City.

00:59:40.307 --> 00:59:46.847
So I think that that did place a bit of a role in the level of enthusiasm for

00:59:46.847 --> 00:59:50.367
a Democratic candidate, maybe not necessarily that specific candidate.

00:59:50.367 --> 00:59:57.007
But I think that's what you're seeing across the country is that turnout amongst Democrats.

00:59:57.427 --> 01:00:01.667
And I don't have any data for this yet, but I suspect we will soon,

01:00:01.847 --> 01:00:07.727
that there was an energizing effect because of the protests,

01:00:07.887 --> 01:00:13.987
because of Mamdani, because of the pushback that Governor Newsom and other governors,

01:00:13.987 --> 01:00:15.247
you know, Pritzker, et cetera,

01:00:15.647 --> 01:00:20.887
are actually getting people mobilized in a way that might not have happened

01:00:20.887 --> 01:00:23.407
if, you know, we just had politics as usual.

01:00:24.147 --> 01:00:26.107
Yeah. And I'm going to tie in

01:00:26.107 --> 01:00:32.047
Mamdani later as we get into this conversation about radical empathy,

01:00:32.047 --> 01:00:39.387
because I've seen some things that I think relate to what you're trying to do with that.

01:00:40.286 --> 01:00:44.786
But I do want to ask this one question to you. Is there anything wrong with black people?

01:00:48.126 --> 01:00:50.946
I know not as a I would say

01:00:50.946 --> 01:00:54.406
no as a generic group are there

01:00:54.406 --> 01:00:57.546
problems within our community absolutely

01:00:57.546 --> 01:01:04.746
and I wouldn't phrase it that way it's not that it's wrong it's that there are

01:01:04.746 --> 01:01:12.646
pathologies that have occurred not necessarily of our accord but you know I

01:01:12.646 --> 01:01:15.686
think about things like you know health in general.

01:01:16.586 --> 01:01:21.606
And then, you know, you can look at mental health. And I guess I would turn

01:01:21.606 --> 01:01:26.646
the question around and say, are there problems in the Black community?

01:01:26.926 --> 01:01:36.406
100%. Because of the long-lasting impact of, you know, how we've been treated in this country.

01:01:36.726 --> 01:01:42.246
You know, what's really interesting is, and I've come across this stuff as I've

01:01:42.246 --> 01:01:47.786
been doing research, if somebody is born and raised in Africa.

01:01:48.685 --> 01:01:55.525
And then you take them to the U.S., immediately their health adjusts to that of African-Americans.

01:01:55.805 --> 01:02:00.345
They're healthier in their home country in Africa, and then they come to the

01:02:00.345 --> 01:02:04.545
U.S., and then they develop all the health issues that African-Americans do.

01:02:04.545 --> 01:02:13.885
And so I think that a lot of our problems arise from living in a country that

01:02:13.885 --> 01:02:18.905
does not respect or treat us in the ways that we should be treated.

01:02:20.125 --> 01:02:26.665
Yeah. And so the follow up to that was, why do we think that there is something wrong with us?

01:02:26.705 --> 01:02:30.225
And you were kind of going down that path when you started talking about pathologies

01:02:30.225 --> 01:02:32.405
and history and all that.

01:02:32.585 --> 01:02:38.025
So, you know, Malcolm X, I'm paraphrasing, but Malcolm X and Carter G.

01:02:38.185 --> 01:02:42.845
Woodson and other scholars have basically said, you know, we're being taught

01:02:42.845 --> 01:02:47.785
certain things, then our self-esteem is going to be damaged by that.

01:02:47.785 --> 01:02:50.585
So just kind of expound on that a little bit.

01:02:51.197 --> 01:02:56.257
Yeah. So it's really interesting because I'm teaching a class right now on race and immigration.

01:02:56.697 --> 01:03:01.737
And a lot of times people say, well, why can't black people be like,

01:03:01.817 --> 01:03:05.317
you know, group X, you know, like Chinese or Japanese immigrants.

01:03:05.957 --> 01:03:09.917
And the funny thing is, is these people come to the U.S. And,

01:03:09.917 --> 01:03:11.917
you know, I talk about this in my class.

01:03:12.157 --> 01:03:15.997
They come and then they are taught that black people are at the bottom,

01:03:16.437 --> 01:03:20.777
you know, and that there are these all these racial hierarchies and that they

01:03:20.777 --> 01:03:24.477
don't want to be like black people. You know, that is the comparison group.

01:03:24.897 --> 01:03:34.057
Right. And so these people come and they adopt the same ideals of white supremacy.

01:03:34.057 --> 01:03:39.777
Basically beating up and putting down Black people because they want to be seen as different.

01:03:40.677 --> 01:03:45.657
And no, that's not 100% across the board. Obviously, I'm generalizing.

01:03:45.897 --> 01:03:54.477
But there is this ongoing problem that we have all of these policies that are

01:03:54.477 --> 01:03:59.397
designed to negatively impact Black communities and Black people individually.

01:03:59.657 --> 01:04:02.957
And unfortunately, they're being exacerbated now because we're losing all the

01:04:02.957 --> 01:04:06.157
protections that help people like me get to where I am.

01:04:06.797 --> 01:04:13.377
And so it's just creating a feedback loop of every time we get a new wave of

01:04:13.377 --> 01:04:20.117
immigrants, you can go all the way back to the Irish and then Italians and so on.

01:04:20.577 --> 01:04:25.637
They graduate to white eventually, even though they started out as being in

01:04:25.637 --> 01:04:27.077
the same category as blacks.

01:04:27.417 --> 01:04:38.657
So yeah, that's part of the issue. And we have to do a better job of supporting each other, of,

01:04:39.737 --> 01:04:46.197
You know, mutual aid. That's been my mantra since Trump got reelected is mutual aid is really critical.

01:04:46.657 --> 01:04:54.477
And, you know, supporting each other in ways that allows us to create our own, you know,

01:04:55.277 --> 01:04:59.517
entrepreneurship, you know, ways that we can kind of get out of the system and

01:04:59.517 --> 01:05:02.337
and still, you know, benefit from

01:05:02.337 --> 01:05:04.977
the capitalist system because we're not going to lose that for a while.

01:05:06.417 --> 01:05:12.517
Yeah when a white person says i don't see color how do you respond to that i laugh.

01:05:17.297 --> 01:05:21.637
Yeah and it's so funny because we've been having that discussion in my class

01:05:21.637 --> 01:05:25.677
as well you know that whole idea that you don't see color it's like i'm sorry

01:05:25.677 --> 01:05:31.217
you know actually when you don't see color, you're denying a part of me, right?

01:05:31.357 --> 01:05:33.277
Because I love my color.

01:05:33.577 --> 01:05:36.937
My color is integral to who I am, right?

01:05:37.257 --> 01:05:45.397
And so I would rather somebody say, you know, I just love you for who you are, right?

01:05:45.617 --> 01:05:49.717
Or, you know, I see you as a person,

01:05:49.717 --> 01:05:53.717
but don't tell me you don't see color because color is

01:05:53.717 --> 01:05:57.017
everywhere and it's not

01:05:57.017 --> 01:06:02.717
just black and white and we have to remember that so much of our society is

01:06:02.717 --> 01:06:07.637
built on you know defining people in certain ways and you know it's interesting

01:06:07.637 --> 01:06:14.537
as I often make the point that part of the reason we hold on to you know our,

01:06:15.008 --> 01:06:18.368
saying we are Black, is because it gives us political power.

01:06:18.508 --> 01:06:22.488
Like I just said earlier, you know, we can go to those polls and say,

01:06:22.648 --> 01:06:23.708
how did Black people vote?

01:06:23.908 --> 01:06:28.288
Black people voted more for this particular candidate than white people.

01:06:28.348 --> 01:06:32.008
So we know that that shows our political power and influence.

01:06:32.468 --> 01:06:35.768
And when we do, you know, this is why when we do redistricting,

01:06:35.768 --> 01:06:40.888
we focus on, you know, communities that have, you know, large numbers of Black

01:06:40.888 --> 01:06:45.948
people so they can get some representation. And we know that there are issues that are specific to us.

01:06:46.508 --> 01:06:49.568
Right. And there are health issues that are specific to us.

01:06:49.908 --> 01:06:54.448
And, you know, there's so many things that, you know, we want to maintain our culture.

01:06:54.668 --> 01:06:58.628
We want, you know, I love the learning more and more about, you know,

01:06:58.688 --> 01:07:02.468
how my family in Louisiana lived and, you know, the great migrant,

01:07:02.568 --> 01:07:03.468
you know, all these things.

01:07:03.628 --> 01:07:08.268
The history is so critical to our understanding of who we are,

01:07:08.368 --> 01:07:16.028
not just as black people, but as a country. You know, define the concept of race, radical empathy.

01:07:16.808 --> 01:07:22.228
So radical empathy, it's a six step process because I came up with this term

01:07:22.228 --> 01:07:26.488
because I was, you know, at that moment, you know, really this started way back

01:07:26.488 --> 01:07:31.048
in the 2000s when it felt like we were lacking in leadership.

01:07:31.268 --> 01:07:37.048
And it's like, well, who's the person who's going to really take on the next

01:07:37.048 --> 01:07:43.148
round of protests and fighting for our rights? And then I had that man in the mirror moment.

01:07:43.348 --> 01:07:47.448
And I'm like, oh, you know, we are who we are waiting. You know,

01:07:47.528 --> 01:07:50.248
you're looking at the people you're waiting for. It's our generation.

01:07:50.848 --> 01:07:54.328
And, you know, I've always been active in politics, you know,

01:07:54.428 --> 01:07:59.668
since I was old enough to, you know, go door to door with my sisters. I'm like five years old.

01:08:01.168 --> 01:08:05.728
And so radical empathy, you know, I'm a very empathetic person.

01:08:06.248 --> 01:08:10.188
But I was like, well, empathy doesn't get me anywhere if I don't take action.

01:08:11.008 --> 01:08:14.668
But then I also wanted to take a step back and get people to look internally

01:08:14.668 --> 01:08:17.328
to understand what is keeping you from taking action.

01:08:17.628 --> 01:08:22.728
And so the first step for me was understanding, you know, basically myself.

01:08:23.848 --> 01:08:27.368
And to do that, I had to be vulnerable. So the first step is being vulnerable

01:08:27.368 --> 01:08:30.608
and saying, okay, let me look at my family history.

01:08:30.728 --> 01:08:33.228
Let me understand, you know, what are some ways I have bias?

01:08:33.688 --> 01:08:39.028
And then the second step is being open to being open to being grounded in who you are.

01:08:39.268 --> 01:08:42.708
So I call my 20s my years of cognitive dissonance.

01:08:43.108 --> 01:08:47.688
And I feel like I finally got a better sense of who I am like in my early late

01:08:47.688 --> 01:08:51.328
20s, early 30s and just said, you know, you just got to be who you are.

01:08:52.359 --> 01:08:55.979
And then the third step is being open to the experiences of others.

01:08:56.399 --> 01:09:02.099
Because I really feel like if you, and it's also that issue of if you love yourself,

01:09:02.259 --> 01:09:03.699
it's a lot easier to love other people.

01:09:04.019 --> 01:09:07.579
And then the next step is you have to practice empathy because it doesn't come

01:09:07.579 --> 01:09:08.559
naturally necessarily.

01:09:09.559 --> 01:09:14.819
And I still have to practice empathy all the time. But what makes it radical is the taking action.

01:09:14.999 --> 01:09:19.659
And then the next step is building trust and creating change.

01:09:19.659 --> 01:09:24.919
Because practicing empathy is one thing, but taking action is a whole other thing.

01:09:25.099 --> 01:09:31.099
And I really learned throughout my years as a leader that building trust is

01:09:31.099 --> 01:09:35.759
such an important component of being a leader, but also just,

01:09:35.759 --> 01:09:38.759
you know, having respect for communities.

01:09:39.899 --> 01:09:45.739
Is there a political leader that you see that practices radical empathy? Yeah.

01:09:46.606 --> 01:09:49.266
Boy, you know, I have to think about that a little bit because,

01:09:49.426 --> 01:09:54.586
you know, politicians, their motivations are often, you know,

01:09:54.706 --> 01:09:56.286
different than what we would want.

01:09:56.506 --> 01:10:00.726
They are often in it for power and, you know, being able to make money.

01:10:00.926 --> 01:10:07.946
But, you know, there are some out there. I think somebody like Pete Buttigieg

01:10:07.946 --> 01:10:12.346
I think is somebody I see but there are even,

01:10:13.446 --> 01:10:21.026
somebody like Jasmine Crockett even though she's very outspoken but I feel like

01:10:21.026 --> 01:10:23.406
I just get a sense from her that she has a lot of empathy.

01:10:23.566 --> 01:10:27.686
I feel like she has a lot of empathy for our community and she's fighting for our community right?

01:10:27.966 --> 01:10:31.546
So sometimes empathy isn't necessarily like oh I care about you.

01:10:31.606 --> 01:10:34.066
Sometimes empathy is being in the game.

01:10:34.286 --> 01:10:40.066
And I think if you're feeling the pain of our community, then you're out there fighting right now.

01:10:40.686 --> 01:10:46.586
So, yeah. So I see people like Jasmine Crockett, you know, I was going to say

01:10:46.586 --> 01:10:50.026
Cory Booker, but, you know, sometimes I wonder about his motives,

01:10:50.026 --> 01:10:53.766
but he does try to be empathetic.

01:10:54.946 --> 01:10:58.326
You know, I was thinking Jasmine's good.

01:10:58.326 --> 01:11:02.446
I think, you know, I was thinking like, you know like AOC,

01:11:03.326 --> 01:11:11.386
because when I was reading your book and because the key thing is not just understanding

01:11:11.386 --> 01:11:15.966
ourselves and our people right I think Jasmine Crockett,

01:11:16.764 --> 01:11:21.284
And, and, you know, it was Jamal Bowman, Cori Bush,

01:11:21.584 --> 01:11:28.344
those folks, I think they, they have a genuine love for us, but in an American

01:11:28.344 --> 01:11:32.784
society where we're trying to get leaders to get the whole country in a different direction,

01:11:33.124 --> 01:11:36.944
I don't know if they really love them other folks. You know what I mean?

01:11:37.764 --> 01:11:47.884
I think they align with people, but I just don't, you know, and that— It depends, yeah.

01:11:48.224 --> 01:11:50.924
Yeah, and that— Go ahead, sorry.

01:11:51.284 --> 01:11:54.644
No, I was just going to say that leads to where I was going with Mamdani,

01:11:54.744 --> 01:11:55.864
but go ahead and finish your thought.

01:11:55.944 --> 01:11:59.584
What are you going to say? Oh, I was just going to say, I think that AOC is

01:11:59.584 --> 01:12:04.384
a really great example, because she does have more of a national,

01:12:04.384 --> 01:12:08.424
you know, kind of cross-cutting, bridging divides kind of approach.

01:12:08.884 --> 01:12:13.724
And yeah, I would say that, you know, some of the others, Cori Bush,

01:12:14.424 --> 01:12:18.384
you know, there's, you know,

01:12:18.924 --> 01:12:24.504
there is, I think, empathy, because I think their empathy does extend beyond

01:12:24.504 --> 01:12:25.904
the Black community in the sense

01:12:25.904 --> 01:12:30.844
that they What they are doing is fighting for the real working class,

01:12:31.024 --> 01:12:33.264
I would say, because you're not going to hear me say Bernie,

01:12:33.424 --> 01:12:38.064
because I feel like Bernie Sanders doesn't see us as the working class.

01:12:38.784 --> 01:12:44.204
I feel like Bernie always has white in parentheses in front of working class.

01:12:44.824 --> 01:12:48.164
But what I see somebody like Jasmine Crockett out there fighting for the working

01:12:48.164 --> 01:12:50.964
class, it's not just the black working class, right?

01:12:51.664 --> 01:12:55.784
What she's fighting for is, and that's I think what a lot of black politicians

01:12:55.784 --> 01:12:59.364
are trying to say. When we do well by us, we do well by everybody.

01:13:00.184 --> 01:13:05.444
Yeah, that's true. And I was going to, that kind of ties into how I want to close it out.

01:13:05.604 --> 01:13:11.684
But I want to get back to Mom Donnie because now he just got elected.

01:13:11.944 --> 01:13:15.164
So he hasn't gotten to the hard part yet of actually governing.

01:13:15.344 --> 01:13:16.724
The easy part is getting elected.

01:13:17.448 --> 01:13:25.268
So, but the way that he has conveyed himself is that he has conveyed himself

01:13:25.268 --> 01:13:27.008
as an empathetic candidate.

01:13:27.988 --> 01:13:32.788
Whether you agree with the policies or whether you think he's going to succeed

01:13:32.788 --> 01:13:41.488
in achieving what he wants to do, the lesson with his campaign was, I feel your pain.

01:13:41.908 --> 01:13:45.888
And if you give me a chance, I'm going to do something about it. Right.

01:13:46.388 --> 01:13:51.768
But but my question is, outside of what you've seen with him,

01:13:51.948 --> 01:13:59.428
do you do you feel that it's conceivable to have radical empathy,

01:13:59.628 --> 01:14:03.008
especially in the political environment that we're in now?

01:14:03.008 --> 01:14:06.168
Because I'm looking at people I went to school with.

01:14:06.948 --> 01:14:13.308
I'm looking at people that, you know, I grew up with and people that I've even voted for.

01:14:13.508 --> 01:14:17.948
And I'm looking at some of the responses that they've had from Mamdani getting

01:14:17.948 --> 01:14:23.428
elected. And I'm like, who, what, where is this coming from?

01:14:23.648 --> 01:14:28.988
I literally had somebody that I voted for, a white woman, put up a graphic and

01:14:28.988 --> 01:14:33.488
said that New York forgot, right? after 9-11.

01:14:33.688 --> 01:14:35.928
They forgot because they voted for him.

01:14:36.728 --> 01:14:41.728
And he's not even Arab. Right. But I'm just saying, you know,

01:14:42.148 --> 01:14:46.608
that's why when you put the challenge to Americans to say, okay,

01:14:46.868 --> 01:14:50.488
we need to start practicing this radical empathy.

01:14:50.748 --> 01:14:58.028
We need to start looking at and feeling, you know, each other's pain and,

01:14:58.028 --> 01:15:02.108
and, and, and embracing each other's joys and cultures and all that.

01:15:03.288 --> 01:15:09.028
With the, with the dynamics in politics now, is that really conceivable or will we just have,

01:15:09.896 --> 01:15:16.716
moments is what i'm asking well that that brings me to my book that just came out called reckoning,

01:15:17.256 --> 01:15:20.036
and that book kind of tries to address

01:15:20.036 --> 01:15:25.576
that question because i get this question all the time right how do we and i

01:15:25.576 --> 01:15:30.856
first of all the thing that one of the first things i i figured out after i

01:15:30.856 --> 01:15:35.736
put out radical empathy is that you you have to put forward the idea that empathy

01:15:35.736 --> 01:15:37.916
is not absolution, right?

01:15:38.236 --> 01:15:44.436
So let's take the example of this woman who posted this 9-11 picture about Mamdani.

01:15:44.796 --> 01:15:50.196
And my first step would be to say, okay, what caused her to do that?

01:15:50.616 --> 01:15:52.936
Why this was clearly coming out of fear.

01:15:53.936 --> 01:15:59.636
And how do, so I can understand that she's coming at this out of fear.

01:15:59.836 --> 01:16:02.916
And a lot of what's happening in politics today is fear driven.

01:16:03.656 --> 01:16:08.636
And so, but that doesn't mean I'm going to forgive her for doing that, right?

01:16:09.996 --> 01:16:16.336
So, empathy, you know, so instead, what I would do is try to educate this person, right?

01:16:16.916 --> 01:16:21.076
Send them, you know, send them the interview that Mamdani did,

01:16:21.156 --> 01:16:26.836
you know, with, you know, this week or, you know, encourage her to listen to

01:16:26.836 --> 01:16:30.276
his acceptance speech, encourage her to give him a chance, right?

01:16:30.676 --> 01:16:34.296
People are jumping, and I have had the same experience. I see people,

01:16:34.316 --> 01:16:39.756
you know, saying terrible things and they just are out of fear. And...

01:16:40.558 --> 01:16:46.458
So I guess how radical empathy helps me is I don't necessarily jump to the,

01:16:46.638 --> 01:16:51.178
even though I say empathy is not absolution, I also don't necessarily jump to

01:16:51.178 --> 01:16:54.938
the conclusion that, oh, this person is awful and evil because they did this, right?

01:16:55.398 --> 01:16:59.238
I have to see them as a whole human being. And I think that's a big part of

01:16:59.238 --> 01:17:01.918
the problem is we don't see each other as whole human beings.

01:17:01.918 --> 01:17:06.738
We divide ourselves up into these little pieces of, oh, well,

01:17:07.138 --> 01:17:12.718
you know, you're saying that, you know, there's a genocide and I can't say that.

01:17:12.878 --> 01:17:15.678
So therefore, we're going to we can't, you know, I can't talk to you anymore.

01:17:15.918 --> 01:17:20.318
It's like, wait a second. You know, we have to see the whole person.

01:17:20.318 --> 01:17:23.998
And yes, I have to say that there have been times, you know,

01:17:24.018 --> 01:17:30.478
I'm blocking people on social media because I don't agree. So it's not good

01:17:30.478 --> 01:17:34.638
to be in toxic situations. If somebody's toxic, you've got to extricate yourself from that.

01:17:34.998 --> 01:17:41.078
I think what's more important is that we understand that it is possible to have empathy.

01:17:41.838 --> 01:17:48.438
I really focus on self-empathy as well as empathy for others so that you don't

01:17:48.438 --> 01:17:52.578
get into this situation where you don't want people to roll over you.

01:17:53.258 --> 01:17:58.638
And that's why I was giving those examples previously. We want people who are fighters, right?

01:17:58.918 --> 01:18:04.618
We want people who are out there in the trenches and telling the truth and being

01:18:04.618 --> 01:18:08.498
honest about, you know, look, we haven't given this poor guy a chance.

01:18:09.138 --> 01:18:13.898
You know, he was nine years old or however old he was when that happened.

01:18:14.498 --> 01:18:17.818
He's not even Arab. There's no connection here.

01:18:17.818 --> 01:18:22.158
And so I think that's a situation where you want to point out to that person

01:18:22.158 --> 01:18:27.358
where they've gone wrong and say, look, I care about you as a person and I supported

01:18:27.358 --> 01:18:30.458
you, but I disagree with this.

01:18:30.578 --> 01:18:33.878
And I think that's part of it is we have to have the courage to do it.

01:18:34.247 --> 01:18:37.507
To step up and say, no, I don't think what you did is right.

01:18:38.427 --> 01:18:44.147
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I, I get into fights a lot, doc.

01:18:44.327 --> 01:18:51.927
I, uh, you know, and I, I'm, I'm trying at my older age to, because when I was elected,

01:18:52.387 --> 01:18:57.127
you know, I was in my thirties when I was really, really an activist and heavy

01:18:57.127 --> 01:19:00.827
in it, I was in my twenties and, you know, So I just,

01:19:01.027 --> 01:19:05.667
I was coming at you and, and, you know, as I've gotten older,

01:19:05.667 --> 01:19:13.567
I'm trying to be more of the elder and I'm trying to say what I need to say to him.

01:19:14.787 --> 01:19:17.987
When I was 20 or 30, I would have cut you out. Now I'm trying not to cut you

01:19:17.987 --> 01:19:20.027
out, but I'm trying to convey that message.

01:19:20.167 --> 01:19:25.327
Right. So that's part of the challenge, I think, is that when we're trying to

01:19:25.327 --> 01:19:28.467
be empathetic and understand why a person's coming that way,

01:19:28.687 --> 01:19:34.807
even if it offends you, the challenge is, how do you step to that person?

01:19:34.927 --> 01:19:40.307
How do you confront them? And that's, so I appreciate you saying that.

01:19:40.627 --> 01:19:44.007
And I have one more thing to add to that, which is ask questions.

01:19:44.687 --> 01:19:49.507
You know, what if you went to her and said, you know, here's some facts about

01:19:49.507 --> 01:19:53.907
Mom Donnie. why did you post that? Explain to me, you know?

01:19:54.427 --> 01:19:57.387
And that's asking questions is really important.

01:19:58.327 --> 01:20:03.747
Yeah. All right. So why is structural racism not inevitable?

01:20:04.707 --> 01:20:09.647
Oh, it's not inevitable because it's something that is, you know,

01:20:09.747 --> 01:20:14.187
I should say it's perpetuated because of history, right?

01:20:14.287 --> 01:20:16.667
I mean, you have to go back to,

01:20:17.467 --> 01:20:21.727
the way the country was founded, etc. But it's not necessarily,

01:20:22.507 --> 01:20:27.647
well, first of all, it's not necessarily, it harms us as a country,

01:20:27.947 --> 01:20:31.447
as an economy, all these different, you know, we are not getting people's best

01:20:31.447 --> 01:20:34.007
potential with structural racism.

01:20:34.287 --> 01:20:39.187
And so, you know, enlightened leaders would see that structural racism is something

01:20:39.187 --> 01:20:41.387
that actually hurts us, it doesn't help this.

01:20:41.827 --> 01:20:45.967
But unfortunately, people see things as zero sum.

01:20:46.167 --> 01:20:52.487
So we have to get out of a zero sum mindset in order to break down structural racism.

01:20:53.007 --> 01:20:57.367
You know, the fact that a black person became president doesn't mean that,

01:20:57.427 --> 01:21:00.067
you know, nobody else white will ever be.

01:21:00.187 --> 01:21:02.967
Obviously, you know, we've had white presidents since then.

01:21:03.367 --> 01:21:06.407
And the fact that somebody gets

01:21:06.407 --> 01:21:09.887
SNAP benefits doesn't mean that somebody else, you know, is losing out.

01:21:10.807 --> 01:21:15.867
The mindset of people in this country around things like, you know,

01:21:16.027 --> 01:21:21.387
the, I'm putting in air quotes here, the image of the welfare queen and things

01:21:21.387 --> 01:21:24.047
like that, even though we don't call it that anymore, still persists.

01:21:24.287 --> 01:21:29.467
And so people see certain things like, you know, you say the word welfare,

01:21:29.747 --> 01:21:31.787
you know, they imagine a Black person.

01:21:31.947 --> 01:21:34.827
And that's why it's important to call out those kinds of things,

01:21:34.847 --> 01:21:39.087
because the vast majority of People who get what we call welfare benefits are white.

01:21:39.547 --> 01:21:45.767
And so we have very wrong ideas, but things are so baked into the system, right?

01:21:46.107 --> 01:21:50.847
And it's extremely, so I would say it's really, really difficult to get rid

01:21:50.847 --> 01:21:53.927
of structural racism and structural discrimination.

01:21:54.507 --> 01:21:59.527
But it's not inevitable. And actually, a true...

01:22:00.471 --> 01:22:04.911
Even capitalists would understand that we shouldn't have it because it just

01:22:04.911 --> 01:22:08.111
cuts into, you know, free markets.

01:22:08.351 --> 01:22:13.331
And I'm not a total capitalist myself, but, you know, if we're going to work

01:22:13.331 --> 01:22:18.191
in the system that we have, it costs us billions of dollars every year.

01:22:19.291 --> 01:22:22.631
Well, and, you know, it's like studies have shown.

01:22:22.631 --> 01:22:27.771
A lot of the people that I've interviewed that are into, that were like consultants,

01:22:28.031 --> 01:22:29.711
DEI consultants and all that,

01:22:30.191 --> 01:22:34.091
you know, one of the things that was always coming up was the fact that the

01:22:34.091 --> 01:22:39.671
more diverse a company was, the more productive they were and production in

01:22:39.671 --> 01:22:42.571
a capitalist society means more money, right?

01:22:42.891 --> 01:22:48.131
That's right. And so you would think that, and I, and I kind of thought,

01:22:48.151 --> 01:22:52.611
you know, there's been moments where I've had an altruistic moment, right?

01:22:53.151 --> 01:22:56.811
Of course, when Barack Obama got elected and I was running during that time,

01:22:56.851 --> 01:22:59.571
I thought that was an altruistic moment.

01:22:59.691 --> 01:23:03.091
When I go to Ole Miss and I see frat houses with Obama banners,

01:23:03.151 --> 01:23:06.451
I kind of thought, all right, we're turning a corner here, right?

01:23:06.451 --> 01:23:09.511
Then we've seen the backlash after that

01:23:09.511 --> 01:23:12.551
right and then and then george the george

01:23:12.551 --> 01:23:16.291
floyd murder happened and the people's response to that especially

01:23:16.291 --> 01:23:19.491
corporate america it was kind of like okay well

01:23:19.491 --> 01:23:22.591
maybe they get it now they get it that our

01:23:22.591 --> 01:23:28.211
dollars are green just like everybody else's dollars so we might see some change

01:23:28.211 --> 01:23:35.171
and now we're seeing the retrenchment from that yes so that's why I believe

01:23:35.171 --> 01:23:40.211
because it's a man-made construct that it's not permanent.

01:23:41.152 --> 01:23:44.772
So I agree that it's not, it is not inevitable.

01:23:47.552 --> 01:23:53.532
However, it's really been a dogged fight to get rid of it. Yes, yes.

01:23:53.752 --> 01:23:56.952
And, you know, the thing we have to understand is it's, you know,

01:23:56.992 --> 01:24:00.092
it happens globally, right? It's not just in the U.S.

01:24:00.132 --> 01:24:04.252
I mean, I'm in Canada at the moment and, you know, it's in Canada,

01:24:04.492 --> 01:24:10.812
it's in Europe. And it really goes back to the way the globe was divided up

01:24:10.812 --> 01:24:13.292
by the imperialist power.

01:24:13.852 --> 01:24:17.832
I need to write a whole other book about that.

01:24:18.012 --> 01:24:25.932
But it feels like we're chipping away. I mean, as I like to say,

01:24:26.172 --> 01:24:29.652
I am my ancestor's wildest dream, right?

01:24:29.732 --> 01:24:37.512
I'm a professor, a well-recognized professor who's been successful and been

01:24:37.512 --> 01:24:40.352
to some of the best schools in the U.S.

01:24:40.352 --> 01:24:43.852
And now beyond. and I couldn't

01:24:43.852 --> 01:24:46.632
have imagined this future when I was growing up in

01:24:46.632 --> 01:24:55.072
the 70s but that world has you know we've made our way into that world and I

01:24:55.072 --> 01:25:01.632
think that our by our even just by our existence my students are finally you

01:25:01.632 --> 01:25:05.592
know probably for the first time in their lives having a black professor you know and.

01:25:06.755 --> 01:25:12.235
There are, you know, that representation is so important and also that pulling

01:25:12.235 --> 01:25:13.935
people up behind us, which is,

01:25:14.215 --> 01:25:19.095
you know, for I've always been oriented that way, but even more so now as I

01:25:19.095 --> 01:25:20.735
get into the latter part of my career,

01:25:20.935 --> 01:25:26.615
it's so critical that those of us who have made it are looking back and pulling

01:25:26.615 --> 01:25:29.795
others up behind us. Yeah.

01:25:31.075 --> 01:25:36.595
A thought just came through my mind. Condoleezza Rice was one of your instructors, right?

01:25:37.135 --> 01:25:40.695
Yes, she was. So I'm just saying, when you were talking about the ancestors

01:25:40.695 --> 01:25:46.635
and the other guest is going to be on the show, we talked about the prayers

01:25:46.635 --> 01:25:48.415
of the righteous availeth much.

01:25:48.715 --> 01:25:56.615
And so when you talk about our ancestors praying for or imagining us being in

01:25:56.615 --> 01:25:58.455
the positions that we were in.

01:25:58.455 --> 01:26:06.835
I remember when my great aunt died and I was in the Mississippi legislature at the time.

01:26:07.035 --> 01:26:12.115
She was living in Chicago and I came to the funeral and I brought a resolution.

01:26:12.875 --> 01:26:18.395
And it was a it was a it was the moment that I realized how important my position

01:26:18.395 --> 01:26:20.855
was because most of those folks had left Mississippi.

01:26:21.235 --> 01:26:24.975
They left Mississippi where they couldn't even vote. They couldn't even drink

01:26:24.975 --> 01:26:29.555
out of the same water fountain. and then to see somebody of their lineage, somebody that.

01:26:30.431 --> 01:26:35.951
Is connected to them, being in a position as a state representative at that

01:26:35.951 --> 01:26:39.211
thing, that was a powerful moment at that funeral.

01:26:39.551 --> 01:26:42.031
And that's when it really hit me.

01:26:42.511 --> 01:26:48.591
And then I think about Condoleezza Rice, just like if she had not been late

01:26:48.591 --> 01:26:53.671
going to church, we wouldn't have had a Condoleezza Rice. You understand what I'm saying?

01:26:54.051 --> 01:26:59.051
And then we wouldn't have had you, or at least not in this form.

01:26:59.211 --> 01:26:59.911
You understand what I'm saying?

01:27:00.111 --> 01:27:06.651
Right. So, you know, I always think about providence in a lot of the stuff that we're dealing with.

01:27:07.291 --> 01:27:12.811
And, you know, I'm a person of faith. I don't try to put that,

01:27:12.931 --> 01:27:15.071
but to guide me through what I do.

01:27:15.371 --> 01:27:20.891
I believe in providence. I believe in the fact that we've been put in a particular

01:27:20.891 --> 01:27:23.751
position, which leads me to this last question.

01:27:26.571 --> 01:27:31.631
Nikole Hannah-Jones wrote that Black Americans also have been and continue to

01:27:31.631 --> 01:27:35.091
be foundational to the idea of American freedom.

01:27:35.411 --> 01:27:39.911
More than any other group in this country's history, we have served generation

01:27:39.911 --> 01:27:43.251
after generation in an overlooked but vital role.

01:27:43.291 --> 01:27:49.611
It is we who have been the perfectors of this democracy. So my last question

01:27:49.611 --> 01:27:56.311
is, if that is the case, when will the rest of America comprehend that and act accordingly?

01:27:56.991 --> 01:28:02.431
I agree with that 100%. You know, I loved it when the 1619 Project came out

01:28:02.431 --> 01:28:05.251
and actually addressed that very directly.

01:28:05.891 --> 01:28:08.091
And, you know...

01:28:09.096 --> 01:28:15.336
I think that there are parts of America that will never, you know, understand that.

01:28:15.676 --> 01:28:20.696
But there is a huge swath of America right now, even though,

01:28:20.976 --> 01:28:22.456
you know, we're in this era we are in.

01:28:22.596 --> 01:28:27.536
And maybe because, you know, I hate to put it this way, but sometimes, you know, you have to go.

01:28:27.776 --> 01:28:31.456
So think about the civil rights movement, right? We didn't hit a turning point

01:28:31.456 --> 01:28:36.156
until people saw the dogs and the fire hoses and all of that.

01:28:36.156 --> 01:28:40.516
And I feel like we're in that kind of a moment now where people are,

01:28:40.756 --> 01:28:44.476
you know, I mean, in the next few weeks, right, people are in,

01:28:44.616 --> 01:28:48.076
you know, a huge swath of the country is going to not be able to eat.

01:28:48.956 --> 01:28:52.136
Actually, it's happening now. I was just listening to what's going on with,

01:28:52.276 --> 01:28:54.136
you know, food banks are empty, things like that.

01:28:54.696 --> 01:28:57.936
And I think this could be, it's not going to be a turning point.

01:28:58.116 --> 01:29:00.136
There's going to be a lot of turning points, right?

01:29:00.576 --> 01:29:04.836
And we're in the middle of one right now. and so

01:29:04.836 --> 01:29:08.376
it's you know I was raised

01:29:08.376 --> 01:29:11.996
Catholic and you know I really do believe

01:29:11.996 --> 01:29:14.716
in so many of the tenants although there's some

01:29:14.716 --> 01:29:17.536
I don't but you know we're in the

01:29:17.536 --> 01:29:21.076
tunnel and there's a

01:29:21.076 --> 01:29:23.896
potential light there but we're not there to see it

01:29:23.896 --> 01:29:26.556
yet and some of us are going to

01:29:26.556 --> 01:29:29.456
be you know fighting our way through that tunnel for

01:29:29.456 --> 01:29:32.576
a while but i do believe there will be a light and

01:29:32.576 --> 01:29:35.376
that light is that point where people understand that we just

01:29:35.376 --> 01:29:38.136
have to accept basic humanity but not we

01:29:38.136 --> 01:29:41.876
have to go beyond you know it's not just about tolerance yeah i hate that word

01:29:41.876 --> 01:29:47.436
because it's about accepting us as you know people who are constantly fighting

01:29:47.436 --> 01:29:52.176
for the american dream right we are the biggest believers in the american dream

01:29:52.176 --> 01:29:57.156
because and people yeah i remember i was a this guy who came over from the UK was like,

01:29:57.236 --> 01:29:59.936
why do Americans join the military so much and so on?

01:30:00.236 --> 01:30:05.056
And it's because, you know, because we are loyal Americans and our blood is in the soil.

01:30:06.108 --> 01:30:10.408
And that, you know, is the reason my dad joined the military.

01:30:10.588 --> 01:30:14.748
That's the reason, you know, I'm living in Canada. And now I will return to the U.S.

01:30:14.828 --> 01:30:20.488
Because that is where I belong. And that is where I want to keep fighting for,

01:30:20.488 --> 01:30:25.648
you know, the dream, you know, as Langston Hughes has a great poem about this. Right.

01:30:25.828 --> 01:30:31.288
And we are the conscience of America. Right.

01:30:31.719 --> 01:30:35.999
And I'll leave it at that. Yeah. And I, you know, as a matter of fact,

01:30:36.099 --> 01:30:38.999
I literally just said that on my last podcast.

01:30:39.359 --> 01:30:42.519
And that's a heavy burden to have.

01:30:42.819 --> 01:30:50.099
It is. But I think we've done our best to fulfill that role.

01:30:50.099 --> 01:30:52.359
And we're going to continue to do that.

01:30:53.019 --> 01:30:56.779
Dr. Terry Givens, I really appreciate you taking the time.

01:30:57.499 --> 01:31:00.379
How can people get all of these books that you've written?

01:31:01.379 --> 01:31:05.199
And outside of attending a class at the University of British Columbia,

01:31:05.219 --> 01:31:10.359
where you're currently teaching now, how can people reach out to you and tap

01:31:10.359 --> 01:31:11.979
into that beautiful brain of you?

01:31:12.659 --> 01:31:18.059
Oh, thank you. So you can go to my website, which is www.terrigivens.com,

01:31:18.159 --> 01:31:20.699
T-E-R-R-I-G-I-V-E-N-S.

01:31:21.139 --> 01:31:25.039
And actually, I have a discount right now on both of my books.

01:31:25.039 --> 01:31:27.619
If you go to the website, you can get that code.

01:31:27.899 --> 01:31:33.479
And then also, if you follow me on LinkedIn or Blue Sky or Threads,

01:31:33.559 --> 01:31:37.099
I'm posting about events I'll be having. Next week, I'll be in London.

01:31:37.319 --> 01:31:42.719
I'm doing a book at a black bookstore in London called Beacon, New Beacon Books.

01:31:43.159 --> 01:31:48.579
And I will also be, I had a webinar that we'll be posting online.

01:31:48.919 --> 01:31:54.419
So if you're interested, actually, if you Google me, you'll find all kinds of stuff.

01:31:55.039 --> 01:31:59.359
But you can get my books everywhere at Amazon, you know, most bookstores,

01:31:59.719 --> 01:32:03.779
actually every bookstore will have access to my books. And you can always use the library.

01:32:04.359 --> 01:32:10.659
Well, Doug, it's safe travels, first of all. And then I really appreciate you coming on the podcast.

01:32:11.788 --> 01:32:16.408
One of the rules that I have to convey is that now that you've been on,

01:32:16.628 --> 01:32:20.448
you have an open invitation to come back. You don't even have to wait for me to ask you.

01:32:20.628 --> 01:32:24.068
If there's something on your mind and say, Erik, I need to talk about this,

01:32:24.288 --> 01:32:29.208
just reach out and we'll make that happen. But I really appreciate having the

01:32:29.208 --> 01:32:31.908
opportunity to talk to you and have this discussion.

01:32:32.268 --> 01:32:36.028
Yes, I would love to come back. Let's do something in like February,

01:32:36.188 --> 01:32:39.988
March time frame so we can come back to Mamdani and see how things are going.

01:32:40.468 --> 01:32:46.028
Well, it might be a little later than that, but we'll talk about that off air.

01:32:46.168 --> 01:32:51.468
But we definitely going to get you back on to talk about where we're at with

01:32:51.468 --> 01:32:54.308
him and some of these other elected officials.

01:32:54.508 --> 01:32:56.368
But again, thank you. I appreciate that.

01:33:10.548 --> 01:33:14.888
All right. And we are back. And so I want to thank Dr.

01:33:14.988 --> 01:33:19.168
Wylin Wilson and Dr. Terri Givens for coming on the show.

01:33:19.488 --> 01:33:27.508
Again, two sisters that, you know, very pleasant, their smiles light up a It

01:33:27.508 --> 01:33:33.868
was very, very comfortable and engaging to talk to them,

01:33:35.088 --> 01:33:37.948
especially dealing with Dr.

01:33:38.068 --> 01:33:40.668
Wilson, talking about the impact

01:33:40.668 --> 01:33:45.548
of ethics, especially as the role the black church can play in that.

01:33:47.068 --> 01:33:54.428
And Dr. Givens talking about the role that radical empathy can play in moving

01:33:54.428 --> 01:33:56.708
this country in a better direction.

01:33:57.148 --> 01:34:02.628
You know, it's just really, really good to know that there are people,

01:34:02.768 --> 01:34:04.708
especially educators out there.

01:34:04.988 --> 01:34:09.528
You know, and I hear people on the conservative side, on the right,

01:34:09.768 --> 01:34:16.048
the alt-right, whatever, you know, trying to downplay higher education and trying to.

01:34:17.127 --> 01:34:24.527
Equate that to indoctrination or whatever connotation they want to put out there.

01:34:25.007 --> 01:34:32.287
But the reality is, is that enlightenment is our job, right?

01:34:32.707 --> 01:34:39.207
For those of us who espouse to be religious, because it doesn't matter if you're

01:34:39.207 --> 01:34:42.507
part of the Abrahamic religions, that's Judaism,

01:34:43.107 --> 01:34:48.647
Christianity or Islam, or, you know, any of the other religions that are out there.

01:34:49.027 --> 01:34:54.807
The ultimate goal is for humans to be enlightened, right?

01:34:54.967 --> 01:34:58.747
And enlightenment comes through education, through exposure to things.

01:34:59.207 --> 01:35:04.807
And so to be the best human being you can be, whether, you know,

01:35:04.947 --> 01:35:09.547
those of us that believe, we believe there's an afterlife, but even if you don't believe that,

01:35:10.407 --> 01:35:15.387
right, The objective is to be the best human being you can be,

01:35:15.467 --> 01:35:23.327
and that's to achieve enlightenment, to achieve the best education you can receive, right?

01:35:23.487 --> 01:35:28.527
To seek knowledge each and every opportunity you get, not just be satisfied

01:35:28.527 --> 01:35:33.907
what's being regurgitated to you, but to expand your horizons,

01:35:33.907 --> 01:35:36.247
to continue to challenge what you see.

01:35:37.587 --> 01:35:44.467
And build upon what has already been built. Take a foundation and make a better building, right?

01:35:45.047 --> 01:35:48.207
That's the ultimate goal, right? Because

01:35:48.207 --> 01:35:53.247
it's one thing for us to have the quote-unquote power of reason, right?

01:35:53.467 --> 01:35:59.347
But it's a whole other thing for us to take it to a whole nother level and to

01:35:59.347 --> 01:36:07.147
seek enlightenment each and every day we exist, right? Because if we seek enlightenment,

01:36:08.269 --> 01:36:13.069
Then we can get to a point where our politics is at a better level,

01:36:13.349 --> 01:36:15.909
that our day-to-day lives are at a better level.

01:36:16.269 --> 01:36:19.269
We would value safety more.

01:36:19.409 --> 01:36:24.789
We would value other people's experiences more, right?

01:36:25.629 --> 01:36:30.689
That's what we're trying to get to. And we have to be ethical and we have to

01:36:30.689 --> 01:36:33.009
be empathetic to get there.

01:36:33.809 --> 01:36:36.089
And we have to have some morals, too.

01:36:36.929 --> 01:36:42.249
So, yeah, thank you, Dr. Wilson and Dr. Givens for coming on and having this discussion.

01:36:43.429 --> 01:36:47.689
One of the things that I kind of talked to Dr.

01:36:47.809 --> 01:36:59.149
Givens about that has bothered me in the aftermath of Election Day 2025 is the

01:36:59.149 --> 01:37:02.629
responses that I've been seeing from people that I know.

01:37:03.632 --> 01:37:09.712
About Zoran Mamdani being elected mayor of New York City.

01:37:10.652 --> 01:37:16.592
Before I get into that, let me congratulate Dontaye Carter, who was a guest on this program.

01:37:16.852 --> 01:37:23.052
Dontaye made it to the runoff in Sandy Springs, so he is one step closer to being

01:37:23.052 --> 01:37:25.212
the first black mayor in Sandy Springs.

01:37:25.412 --> 01:37:29.852
It was looking a little touch and go on election night, but he at least managed

01:37:29.852 --> 01:37:35.232
to get into the runoff. And so that's going to happen, I think, December the 2nd.

01:37:36.452 --> 01:37:44.232
So if y'all, you know, go back in archives, you know, and find Dontaye's website

01:37:44.232 --> 01:37:50.572
and all that stuff, if you pull up Dontaye Carter, you know, you'll get his information.

01:37:50.572 --> 01:37:55.732
And remember that you can't spell Dontaye without donate. Remember that.

01:37:56.552 --> 01:37:59.852
And, you know, this last little push, he's going to need all the help he can

01:37:59.852 --> 01:38:05.972
get to make history and make a difference in Sandy Springs.

01:38:06.252 --> 01:38:08.652
So congrats to Dontaye on that.

01:38:09.412 --> 01:38:13.192
I was trying to think it was somebody else that I had on. I was running for

01:38:13.192 --> 01:38:17.192
something. I don't think so. But there's a lot of stuff that happened.

01:38:17.992 --> 01:38:28.412
Right? State of Georgia. Where I am, two Democrats, one in the public service commissioner's race.

01:38:28.592 --> 01:38:34.192
And the public service commissioner commission is the one that regulates utilities in the state.

01:38:34.412 --> 01:38:40.512
And for a long time, the Republicans had control because primarily Georgia Power,

01:38:41.032 --> 01:38:46.772
Southern Power Company, which is, you know, biggest utility in Georgia,

01:38:47.672 --> 01:38:50.472
kind of like supporting the other side. Right.

01:38:50.732 --> 01:38:52.752
I mean, that's what they do.

01:38:53.752 --> 01:38:59.612
And so two Democrats won, a black woman and a white man got elected.

01:39:00.563 --> 01:39:09.563
And so now that I that that kind of balances the commission out and it wasn't

01:39:09.563 --> 01:39:11.563
the fact that they won. It was the way they won.

01:39:12.143 --> 01:39:15.643
I mean, both of them got 62 percent of the vote.

01:39:16.403 --> 01:39:20.683
And it wasn't like you voted in a block. You know, I'm saying they each had

01:39:20.683 --> 01:39:24.863
to you had to go and vote in one race and then you had to go vote in the other race.

01:39:24.863 --> 01:39:32.703
And 62% of Georgians said that they wanted both of these Democrats in those positions, right?

01:39:33.163 --> 01:39:37.163
Because people are hurting, especially with the utility rates,

01:39:37.183 --> 01:39:42.663
because the Public Service Commission in Georgia has allowed Georgia Power to

01:39:42.663 --> 01:39:48.183
go on these efforts to create nuclear power plants.

01:39:48.183 --> 01:39:55.423
And they're like $24 billion over budget in building these plants.

01:39:55.703 --> 01:40:01.323
They're seven years behind, and the commission hasn't held them accountable, right?

01:40:01.443 --> 01:40:07.383
Because, you know, they passed the construction costs to the consumers.

01:40:07.663 --> 01:40:12.403
The consumers of electricity, especially those using Georgia Power.

01:40:13.183 --> 01:40:19.163
Paying for those plants, right? So for a long time, there really hasn't been

01:40:19.163 --> 01:40:21.963
the voice of the people challenging that.

01:40:22.283 --> 01:40:26.583
People have come to this Public Service Commission hearings and voiced their

01:40:26.583 --> 01:40:30.283
opinion to the commissioners, but they haven't been commissioners putting their

01:40:30.283 --> 01:40:34.363
foot down and say, hey, enough is enough. You have to be accountable for something.

01:40:34.703 --> 01:40:40.383
So that's a major step. In Mississippi, two Senate seats got flipped.

01:40:42.382 --> 01:40:45.782
Two Republican seats got flipped and a House seat got flipped.

01:40:46.122 --> 01:40:52.882
But the two Republican seats that got flipped in the state Senate means now

01:40:52.882 --> 01:40:57.222
that the Mississippi State Senate does not have a supermajority.

01:40:57.322 --> 01:41:00.822
They don't have a supermajority in both houses. What does that mean?

01:41:01.282 --> 01:41:07.362
So if you have a supermajority in a legislative body, that means that you can

01:41:07.362 --> 01:41:12.642
pass anything that you want, even something that requires a two-thirds or a

01:41:12.642 --> 01:41:15.842
three-fifths vote, you can get that passed.

01:41:16.582 --> 01:41:17.862
With no opposition.

01:41:17.862 --> 01:41:23.582
If it's below the supermajority threshold, then the minority party has a chance

01:41:23.582 --> 01:41:29.022
at least to slow some things up and try to get some bad things taken out of

01:41:29.022 --> 01:41:31.242
legislation or good things added to legislation.

01:41:31.242 --> 01:41:36.942
If you're going to get this bill passed, at least you got to listen to us and

01:41:36.942 --> 01:41:41.542
put something in there if you want us to support it, right?

01:41:42.222 --> 01:41:47.082
And a lot of that is like, you know, tax stuff, constitutional amendments,

01:41:47.342 --> 01:41:48.202
all those kind of things.

01:41:48.662 --> 01:41:55.622
So the fact that one House, the Senate in particular, in the Mississippi legislature,

01:41:55.842 --> 01:41:59.842
doesn't have a supermajority anymore, doesn't mean, means now that the train

01:41:59.842 --> 01:42:01.762
is not going to run smoothly down the tracks.

01:42:02.442 --> 01:42:06.422
Whatever flies out of the House of Representatives, and they're going to meet

01:42:06.422 --> 01:42:09.882
some resistance in the Senate, right?

01:42:10.282 --> 01:42:14.162
Not that they don't meet resistance in the House, but it's a numbers game.

01:42:14.802 --> 01:42:23.622
So that's why it's very, very important. So I guess, yeah, I had Mikel Bolden on, the chair.

01:42:23.882 --> 01:42:27.402
Well, not the chair. She's the executive director of the Mississippi Democratic Party.

01:42:27.542 --> 01:42:33.022
So congratulations to you, Madam Executive Director, for pulling that off.

01:42:33.022 --> 01:42:36.562
Now, I've read some commentary, whatever.

01:42:37.202 --> 01:42:38.882
The bottom line is.

01:42:39.840 --> 01:42:46.720
Mississippi Democrats did something that people had written off and said,

01:42:46.820 --> 01:42:50.760
well, Mississippi is just a red state and they're poor and they're just going to suffer.

01:42:51.600 --> 01:42:54.660
People have made a decision. Yeah, we're not going to do that.

01:42:55.440 --> 01:43:00.040
We need to slow this train down. So when, you know, this presidential election

01:43:00.040 --> 01:43:03.960
comes up, if you're a Democrat and you're running for president of the United

01:43:03.960 --> 01:43:09.220
States, you might want to make a play for those six electoral votes in Mississippi, Just might.

01:43:09.700 --> 01:43:14.560
You might want to go outside of Atlanta to try to get the electoral votes in Georgia.

01:43:15.160 --> 01:43:21.000
You might want to do that because these folks have shown that they're just like

01:43:21.000 --> 01:43:22.040
everybody else in America.

01:43:22.360 --> 01:43:25.480
And it's like we're tired of paying high prices for utilities.

01:43:25.720 --> 01:43:29.340
We're tired of paying high prices for gas. We're tired of paying high prices for groceries.

01:43:29.860 --> 01:43:33.840
We're just tired. We're tired of this foolishness that's going on in Washington.

01:43:34.400 --> 01:43:37.920
You know, they're about to, they're cutting off SNAP benefits.

01:43:38.120 --> 01:43:40.700
They're cutting off TANF if they could.

01:43:41.974 --> 01:43:44.694
People are losing jobs. Enough of that.

01:43:45.494 --> 01:43:48.774
You know, if you want to build a ballroom, that's fine. If you want to get a

01:43:48.774 --> 01:43:51.894
plane from a Middle Eastern country, great.

01:43:52.054 --> 01:43:56.094
But make sure that you handle your business. Handle your business.

01:43:57.794 --> 01:44:02.454
And people across America that got a chance to vote sent that message.

01:44:02.914 --> 01:44:06.914
So it was more than just the 7 million people that showed up at the No Kings rally.

01:44:07.634 --> 01:44:10.654
It's them people that showed up to vote, right?

01:44:10.654 --> 01:44:17.474
And it didn't matter whether it was a moderate like Abigail Spanberger in Virginia

01:44:17.474 --> 01:44:23.094
or a Democratic Socialist like Zoran Mamdani in New York.

01:44:23.094 --> 01:44:27.894
If you ran on a Democratic ticket, people were going to support you, period.

01:44:28.614 --> 01:44:31.634
Because they realized it's the end of the line.

01:44:32.134 --> 01:44:35.754
And Nancy Pelosi even got the memo and said, you know what?

01:44:35.974 --> 01:44:43.154
I can move on now. I've done all I can do. I think the Democrats are in the right direction.

01:44:44.254 --> 01:44:46.594
I can retire now.

01:44:47.894 --> 01:44:52.474
The kids got it. They done figured it out. We're in good hands.

01:44:53.234 --> 01:44:58.494
That's the impact of what happened on Election Day 2025, right?

01:44:59.582 --> 01:45:06.182
So, you know, it's working, whether it's a little podcast like mine or all these

01:45:06.182 --> 01:45:09.542
other fabulous podcasters out here, or whether it's people,

01:45:10.082 --> 01:45:17.122
organizations like Indivisible organizing individuals to go out and protest,

01:45:17.422 --> 01:45:23.422
Democracy Forward and the ACLU and Mark Elias by his damn self running out there

01:45:23.422 --> 01:45:25.702
and challenging everything they can in court.

01:45:26.142 --> 01:45:32.382
It's working. And I said something a long time ago, and some people probably

01:45:32.382 --> 01:45:34.822
think, well, you might be right.

01:45:35.222 --> 01:45:42.202
Although, you know, America is not a country easy to be a dictator of because

01:45:42.202 --> 01:45:47.742
the whole notion of this nation was independence.

01:45:48.222 --> 01:45:55.322
The thing that drove slaves to become mayors and governors and presidents was independence.

01:45:55.322 --> 01:46:02.282
And Native Americans and Asian Americans and Latino Americans to ascend and

01:46:02.282 --> 01:46:09.962
make impacts in American society has been driven by freedom and independence, right?

01:46:10.422 --> 01:46:16.222
You can't be a dictator until you squash that.

01:46:17.062 --> 01:46:20.582
And I just don't see any way, shape, or form.

01:46:21.629 --> 01:46:26.749
That the United States, anybody in the United States would be successful in

01:46:26.749 --> 01:46:29.789
squashing that spirit of independence,

01:46:30.189 --> 01:46:33.269
that spirit of freedom that dwells

01:46:33.269 --> 01:46:37.669
in the majority of us, the overwhelming majority of us, right? Right.

01:46:38.829 --> 01:46:44.389
So, you know, I. But I want to get back to Mamdani.

01:46:45.269 --> 01:46:48.609
So I was really, really disturbed when I saw people that I knew,

01:46:48.809 --> 01:46:56.269
people I voted for, people grew up with or whatever, saying all these crazy things.

01:46:57.069 --> 01:47:02.529
You know, I get a certain section of people would take that route.

01:47:02.529 --> 01:47:07.929
I get that people that are not enlightened would take that,

01:47:08.189 --> 01:47:15.549
but people that are in my orbit, people that I've had conversations with or

01:47:15.549 --> 01:47:17.709
had some connection with,

01:47:18.169 --> 01:47:25.909
would take to extreme things like saying that people in New York forgot.

01:47:26.909 --> 01:47:35.009
Now, I think it is ironic that 24 years after 9-11, that a person of the Muslim

01:47:35.009 --> 01:47:40.669
faith would be able to ascend and become the leader of that city.

01:47:41.129 --> 01:47:47.509
But I think that's a testament to New Yorkers. I don't think that's amnesia.

01:47:48.469 --> 01:47:57.249
I don't think that's naivete. say, I think that's the example of what America is about, right?

01:47:57.669 --> 01:48:06.049
Because to be Muslim in New York in 2001, in America in 2001,

01:48:06.049 --> 01:48:09.769
was not really a comfortable place to be, you know?

01:48:10.409 --> 01:48:12.369
I just remember that.

01:48:13.563 --> 01:48:19.323
That limo driver when we were in Dearborn, Michigan, and we were heading back to Mississippi.

01:48:21.343 --> 01:48:25.763
And we told him what time our flight was. And he said, oh, well,

01:48:25.823 --> 01:48:27.663
y'all got time to kind of see something.

01:48:28.103 --> 01:48:32.223
And we were like, okay. You know, we had been in meetings all weekend.

01:48:32.843 --> 01:48:35.323
All right. Didn't do a whole lot of sightseeing.

01:48:36.583 --> 01:48:46.023
So we said, okay. And so he took us to this restaurant and he was Yemenese, right? Or from Yemen.

01:48:46.643 --> 01:48:52.083
His lineage was Yemen. And he took us to this particular restaurant and it was

01:48:52.083 --> 01:48:57.763
like right after church had let out for some of the Christian churches around

01:48:57.763 --> 01:48:59.943
that time around brunch, right?

01:49:00.263 --> 01:49:07.763
And so they were Lebanese and Yemeni people primarily at this restaurant.

01:49:08.563 --> 01:49:13.323
And it was a Mediterranean cuisine, you know, hummus and falafel,

01:49:13.423 --> 01:49:14.383
the whole nine yards, right?

01:49:14.903 --> 01:49:20.723
And so, you know, he said you could tell the, he was telling you could tell

01:49:20.723 --> 01:49:24.583
the Christians because they're wearing suits and dresses, you know,

01:49:24.823 --> 01:49:27.823
everybody else has got to dress however they want to dress.

01:49:28.763 --> 01:49:32.943
And, and everybody was eating and it was just, it was just a cool experience.

01:49:32.943 --> 01:49:36.683
It was like, you know, the table was, you know, one of those turning tables,

01:49:36.683 --> 01:49:39.623
which I love at restaurants. There's a restaurant in Vicksburg,

01:49:39.663 --> 01:49:42.923
Mississippi that's like that too where they just set all the food on the table

01:49:42.923 --> 01:49:47.623
and you just spin it and, you know, pull what you want, right?

01:49:48.323 --> 01:49:51.443
And so they had that same setup at this restaurant and it was just like the

01:49:51.443 --> 01:49:54.503
people were just, you know, and everybody was so friendly and so kind.

01:49:54.723 --> 01:49:57.763
Now, you know, everybody in my group was black, so...

01:49:58.998 --> 01:50:05.338
You know, I know it would have been a better gauge if somebody in our group was white.

01:50:05.898 --> 01:50:10.318
But nonetheless, you know, they knew we were Americans, you know, natives.

01:50:11.278 --> 01:50:17.178
And so, you know, I mean, it was a beautiful experience. And that was a beautiful

01:50:17.178 --> 01:50:19.798
image to see before I left.

01:50:20.418 --> 01:50:23.258
Right. And that kind of ties into what Dr.

01:50:23.358 --> 01:50:27.638
Givens was talking about, about empathy, is that you have to be able to be exposed

01:50:27.638 --> 01:50:31.058
and see the beauty of that. other cultures, right?

01:50:32.638 --> 01:50:37.978
So, you know, in the group I was with, none of those folks were in this group

01:50:37.978 --> 01:50:41.338
that I'm talking about that was attacking Mamdani, but, you know,

01:50:41.498 --> 01:50:43.258
it was an exposure for us.

01:50:43.818 --> 01:50:51.018
It was a cool one. And so I guess the thing that bothers me is that anybody

01:50:51.018 --> 01:50:54.638
that I affiliate with or had some connection with,

01:50:55.018 --> 01:50:59.098
whether it's family or classmates or colleagues or whatever,

01:50:59.438 --> 01:51:01.338
that would take this kind of position,

01:51:01.918 --> 01:51:04.038
the first thing you have to question is,

01:51:04.798 --> 01:51:07.978
wow, was my antenna off on these people?

01:51:08.958 --> 01:51:10.438
You know? It's like,

01:51:11.484 --> 01:51:16.364
Am I really, really that attuned? And, you know, in politics,

01:51:16.564 --> 01:51:19.684
you've got to deal with everybody, right?

01:51:19.824 --> 01:51:26.284
But folks that you kind of, like, connect with, even as for just an election,

01:51:26.624 --> 01:51:30.904
when you see the way that they're responding, it's just kind of like,

01:51:31.884 --> 01:51:33.124
wow, I didn't see that coming.

01:51:34.144 --> 01:51:40.664
And, you know, I guess, you know, Doc was right that you need to ask proper questions.

01:51:42.024 --> 01:51:50.604
And I need to do it in a way where it's not combative, where their automatic

01:51:50.604 --> 01:51:54.284
response is defense, right?

01:51:54.704 --> 01:51:57.344
It should be inviting. It should be open.

01:51:57.864 --> 01:52:03.044
Hey, why do you think that this is the outcome?

01:52:03.044 --> 01:52:10.124
Why do you think that people forgot about 9-11 because they voted for a young

01:52:10.124 --> 01:52:13.804
man who was literally like 9 or 10 years old when it actually happened?

01:52:14.844 --> 01:52:19.624
Why would you think that has the indication that they forgot?

01:52:20.384 --> 01:52:24.144
When you see that memorial, if you're in downtown Manhattan,

01:52:24.644 --> 01:52:27.004
you see that memorial every day.

01:52:27.684 --> 01:52:30.464
You see that light shoot up.

01:52:31.658 --> 01:52:36.178
September 11th every year. Why would you think that, right?

01:52:36.818 --> 01:52:42.258
Now, I know a lot of people have the cynical sense about the American population,

01:52:42.258 --> 01:52:48.758
especially when it comes to politics, that the majority of Americans are gullible, and they're not.

01:52:49.058 --> 01:52:54.958
The majority of Americans that take the time to vote and engage in politics are very, very smart.

01:52:55.398 --> 01:53:00.498
Now, the question is, how egalitarian are they, right?

01:53:00.718 --> 01:53:04.398
Are they more concerned about what's going on in their house and think that

01:53:04.398 --> 01:53:07.218
that person would help that situation?

01:53:07.658 --> 01:53:12.038
Or are they more concerned about the community and the nation as a whole and

01:53:12.038 --> 01:53:15.058
how they vote? But it's not because of lack of intelligence.

01:53:16.538 --> 01:53:20.898
Now, there might be degrees of enlightenment that we need to discuss.

01:53:21.278 --> 01:53:27.418
But as far as intelligence, as far as understanding what that person said and how it made them feel.

01:53:28.642 --> 01:53:36.202
No, that's not dim-wittedness. That's not having amnesia.

01:53:36.402 --> 01:53:40.362
That's making a competent choice.

01:53:41.302 --> 01:53:47.402
And the challenge has always been is that the more knowledge that people have,

01:53:47.562 --> 01:53:49.242
the better decisions they will make.

01:53:49.662 --> 01:53:55.042
So the question is, how are they getting their information to make their votes?

01:53:55.662 --> 01:54:01.902
Based on the results we saw, the information they got said, enough of what we're dealing with.

01:54:02.362 --> 01:54:08.042
We need to do something better. We voted last year thinking,

01:54:08.902 --> 01:54:10.662
all right, we're going to give this guy another chance.

01:54:10.922 --> 01:54:14.022
Maybe he's learned something. Maybe he's matured a little bit.

01:54:14.342 --> 01:54:18.462
Now that we realize he's batshit crazy, yeah, no.

01:54:19.102 --> 01:54:23.182
And it's not crazy like delusional.

01:54:23.862 --> 01:54:29.942
Well, you can make that argument, you can't, but overpower, just the consumption of power.

01:54:30.182 --> 01:54:36.582
That's all that person wants and money, the ultimate epitome of greed. People don't want that.

01:54:37.362 --> 01:54:41.722
You told us you were going to look out for us. Now that we see that you and

01:54:41.722 --> 01:54:45.442
your friends are not, then we're going to vote for somebody that is.

01:54:45.982 --> 01:54:52.222
And it may not be the most conventional person. And as somebody astutely said,

01:54:52.582 --> 01:55:00.482
if Spamburger ran in New York and Mamdani ran in Virginia, both of them would have lost.

01:55:01.627 --> 01:55:05.267
Right. They might not have even made it out of the primary. So,

01:55:05.267 --> 01:55:10.207
you know, and I think it's funny that Mikie Sherrill was born in Virginia and

01:55:10.207 --> 01:55:11.587
now she's a governor of New Jersey.

01:55:12.047 --> 01:55:15.747
And Abigail Spanberger was born in New Jersey. Now she's the governor of Virginia.

01:55:15.747 --> 01:55:20.227
I think that's hilarious as far as irony goes.

01:55:20.727 --> 01:55:24.087
And they both were like military or, you know, people.

01:55:24.907 --> 01:55:34.167
Yeah. Yeah, I think it just goes to show that people vote for who they're comfortable with.

01:55:34.667 --> 01:55:39.607
And you can be in Georgia and you can be in Mississippi and you can be wherever

01:55:39.607 --> 01:55:46.627
and don't like Mamdani, but the citizens of New York felt comfortable with him.

01:55:47.427 --> 01:55:52.247
Just like the citizens of New Jersey said, Congresswoman Sherill should be our governor.

01:55:53.007 --> 01:55:57.207
Same with Virginia. Congresswoman Spanberger should be our governor, right?

01:55:58.167 --> 01:56:01.747
Former mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi, is now going to be a member of the state Senate.

01:56:02.667 --> 01:56:07.427
A few years ago, he fell short running for governor of the state of Mississippi,

01:56:07.427 --> 01:56:12.027
but now he's a state senator. He's in the game.

01:56:13.847 --> 01:56:18.487
So it's up to people to make those decisions, right?

01:56:19.247 --> 01:56:26.947
And we have to trust people. and how you trust people by giving them all the information they need.

01:56:28.499 --> 01:56:34.199
In California, there was literally one thing on the ballot, a proposition to

01:56:34.199 --> 01:56:37.179
allow the state to redraw lines.

01:56:37.999 --> 01:56:42.579
Very transparent. We're going to try to get five more Democrats because the

01:56:42.579 --> 01:56:49.339
state of Texas called a special session and redrew lines to try to give Donald

01:56:49.339 --> 01:56:51.559
Trump five more congressmen.

01:56:52.299 --> 01:56:57.459
So we need to do the same thing in California. and they called the election

01:56:57.459 --> 01:56:59.059
as soon as the polls closed.

01:56:59.819 --> 01:57:03.559
It wasn't even close. As soon as they say the polls are closed at California,

01:57:03.719 --> 01:57:07.899
oh, Proposition 50 wins. Wasn't even close.

01:57:09.339 --> 01:57:18.339
So all I can tell you is that we need to continue to make our voices heard and

01:57:18.339 --> 01:57:21.479
to help our fellow Americans find their way.

01:57:22.419 --> 01:57:29.499
I just think about the fact that it took a Republican president to try to make

01:57:29.499 --> 01:57:36.799
the word welfare a negative connotation when it literally is in the first paragraph, that very word.

01:57:38.293 --> 01:57:41.913
Is in the first paragraph of the United States Constitution.

01:57:42.573 --> 01:57:48.213
And it's attached to a phrase that says promote the general welfare.

01:57:49.293 --> 01:57:51.893
Right? We're supposed to help people.

01:57:53.093 --> 01:57:58.033
The obligation is to help defend the Constitution and the people of the United

01:57:58.033 --> 01:58:03.253
States and to promote their welfare and secure their liberty,

01:58:03.673 --> 01:58:06.353
their independence, their desire for freedom.

01:58:07.073 --> 01:58:11.733
Those are the main goals. And everything else is about the structure of how

01:58:11.733 --> 01:58:14.813
to make that happen. But preamble sets the guy.

01:58:16.393 --> 01:58:21.773
So, you know, I get it. We changed the name from welfare program to TANF and

01:58:21.773 --> 01:58:26.973
SNAP and all that, but it's still welfare because we're trying to help people.

01:58:28.073 --> 01:58:36.993
And the minute that all the Democrats and all the Republicans and all the libertarians

01:58:36.993 --> 01:58:42.173
and all the Green Party and all the any other party you want to throw out there.

01:58:42.673 --> 01:58:46.853
Once they all get that, then we'll be much better off.

01:58:47.433 --> 01:58:51.913
Right now, it seems like there's a lot of Democrats coming in that get the memo

01:58:51.913 --> 01:58:55.453
and we'll see how they govern once they get in there.

01:58:56.273 --> 01:59:00.793
It'd be a shame if the Mississippi folks in the state legislature get sworn

01:59:00.793 --> 01:59:04.453
in before the Congresswoman from Arizona. That'd be a shame.

01:59:05.833 --> 01:59:10.293
But we'll see when they all get in there, how they govern.

01:59:10.733 --> 01:59:16.733
And then we can make a decision whether, okay, was that the right move or not? And vote accordingly.

01:59:18.075 --> 01:59:20.995
My gut feeling is it's going to be the right thing.

01:59:21.695 --> 01:59:26.455
And more people of that like mindset get in, it's going to be okay.

01:59:27.235 --> 01:59:29.995
If you've got people that are trying to do the right thing and they're over

01:59:29.995 --> 01:59:30.935
their head, that's all right.

01:59:31.915 --> 01:59:36.495
Hopefully, they'll grow into the position. If they can't, we have to make a

01:59:36.495 --> 01:59:37.715
change. It's just that simple.

01:59:38.255 --> 01:59:43.155
It's not really that hard because this is all about building a more perfect

01:59:43.155 --> 01:59:45.435
union. It's a never-ending project.

01:59:46.235 --> 01:59:53.815
But we got to get out of this fear mongering crap. We got to get out of this absolute fear mindset.

01:59:54.615 --> 01:59:56.555
We got to be brave.

01:59:57.535 --> 02:00:02.955
And just like I don't believe that we would totally have a dictator in the United

02:00:02.955 --> 02:00:09.115
States, I don't believe that we will totally become engaged in Shahira law either.

02:00:11.115 --> 02:00:15.815
Right i don't think we're going to have that extreme i think america is going to be fine,

02:00:16.435 --> 02:00:21.075
as long as we realize that we're all americans doesn't matter what color we

02:00:21.075 --> 02:00:27.575
are doesn't matter what language we speak or we're more fluent in right doesn't

02:00:27.575 --> 02:00:32.835
matter who we love doesn't matter what we desire to be once we realize we're all americans.