Equity & 100 Years of Black History Featuring Dr. Decoteau Irby, Dr. Ann Ishimaru and Dr. Karlos K. Hill

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host,

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Erik Fleming. And so today, I have three guests.

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Two of them have gotten together and written a book dealing with equity justice in public education.

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And I have a returning guest to talk about the significance of 100 years of

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black history in the United States.

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So we got a long show, so I'm not going to get into it, you know, too deep in the intro.

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We're just going to kick it off as always.

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Please look to support the show on www.momenterik.com.

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Whatever you can do, donations, subscriptions, whatever, greatly appreciate it.

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But like I said, This is a jam-packed show, so we're going to kick it right on off.

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And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Thanks, Erik. President Trump condemned but refused to apologize for a racist

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video allegedly posted on his social media account by a staffer depicting the Obamas as apes.

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A federal judge ordered the release of body cam footage and evidence in the

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case of Marimar Martinez, a teacher shot by a Border Patrol agent in Chicago.

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Ghislaine Maxwell invoked her Fifth Amendment rights during a congressional

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deposition in an attempt to secure clemency from President Trump.

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A grand jury declined to indict six Democratic lawmakers after the Justice Department

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attempted to charge them for advising military members to refuse illegal orders.

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The House of Representatives approved the Save America Act to require proof

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of citizenship for midterm elections.

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The House also narrowly passed a resolution to end President Trump's national

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emergency-based tariffs on Canada.

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An immigration judge stopped deportation proceedings against a Tufts University

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student after the government failed to justify revoking her visa over a pro-Palestinian editorial.

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A New York federal judge unfroze $16 billion for the New York-New Jersey Gateway

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Rail project, overruling the Trump administration's blocking of the funds.

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Annalilia Mejia defeated 10 other candidates in the Democratic primary for the

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vacant New Jersey 11th Congressional District seat.

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A federal judge struck down a California law prohibiting federal officers from wearing masks.

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A California appeals court temporarily allowed the Trump administration to go

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ahead with ending deportation protections

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for nearly 89,000 migrants from Honduras, Nepal, and Nicaragua.

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A Georgia man was sentenced to over three years in prison for threatening President

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Trump during a TikTok livestream.

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And a Texas developer will pay $68 million to settle a civil rights case over

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fraudulent land sales to Hispanics.

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I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.

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And now it is time for my guests, Dr. Decoteau Irby and Dr. Ann Ishimaru.

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Decoteau J. Irby is a father, author,

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artist, and educator who works each and every day to advance education equity

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and justice for Black and brown children and youth in community spaces,

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schools, and districts, and higher education.

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His core philosophy is that when you improve learning conditions and opportunities

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through providing abundant resources and affirming support,

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children and young people's aspirations, efforts, and high-level academic performance will follow.

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Professor at the University of Illinois, Chicago, he teaches in the College

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of Education's top-ranked urban education leadership program,

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co-directs the UIC Center for

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Urban Education Leadership, and leads the Brothers Teaching Initiative.

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He organizes Bronzeville's Juneteenth Youth Baseball and Softball Tournament,

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Thames Community Gardens, and advocates for vibrant public spaces on Chicago's South Side.

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A self-taught guitarist, songwriter, and occasional performer,

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he has released three music projects under the name Decoteau Black,

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Exploring Black Love, Struggle, and Liberation.

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Dr. Ann M. Ishimaru is an award-winning scholar, writer,

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educator, and the Killinger Endowed Chair and Professor of Educational Foundations

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Leadership and Policy at the University of Washington College of Education.

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Through her work, she cultivates the leadership and solidarities of educators,

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organizational leaders, and racially minoritized youth, families,

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and communities to realize more transformative futures.

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In addition to many peer-reviewed articles in top-tier educational research

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journals, she is also the author of Just Schools, Building Equitable Collaborations

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with Families and Communities.

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And we will be discussing today this book that they've collaborated on called

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Doing the Work of Equity Leadership for Justice and Systems.

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So, ladies and gentlemen, it

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is my distinct honor and privilege to have as guests on this podcast, Dr.

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Decoteau Irby and Dr. Ann Ishimaru.

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All right. Normally, when I have these podcasts, I usually just have one person

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smarter than me at the other end, but now I got two.

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Dr. Decoteau Irby and Dr. Ann Ishimaru.

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Maru, I'm sorry. How y'all doing? Y'all doing good? Doing good.

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Doing right. Thank you. Okay. So I wanted to, I'm glad that y'all are on because

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we're going to talk about education and at least as it relates to leadership.

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Y'all co-edited or wrote, I don't know how exactly that works,

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but y'all oversaw a book being printed called Doing the Work of Equity Leadership

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for Justice and Systems.

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And which is very, very intense, I must say.

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I got to read it and I was like, oh boy, I'm back in school again.

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But it's a good read and it's very appropriate.

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And I want y'all to get into the meat of how y'all came about putting this together,

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and talk about the essence of the book.

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But before we do that, I do what we call an icebreaker segment.

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So the first icebreaker is a quote that I want y'all to respond to.

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And the quote is, when equity leadership is in addition to, instead of a priority,

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it gets placed on the back burner. What does that quote mean to you?

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You want to get it? You want me to go first, Anne? Yeah, you start.

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Yeah. So thank you for pulling that quote out. And thank you for having us on

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your podcast as well. We're glad to be here.

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So when we have that statement that when equity leadership is an add-on as opposed to at the center,

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What really what we're talking about there is in many schools in many districts,

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they don't try to embody and integrate commitments to equity and justice and

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to everything they're doing.

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They do them kind of like after the fact. I like to call it add on equity.

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So you make a bunch of decisions.

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You have, let's say, for example, a hiring process.

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You don't have commitments to equity baked into the hiring process.

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So you don't have the kind of language and qualifications that make the applicants

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have to come with the understanding and a demonstrated track record of their

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commitment to like equity, anti-racism and so on and so forth.

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Instead, you do a general race neutral hiring process.

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And then after the hiring process, once you realize your pool or the people

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who you either your pool of candidates or the people who you want to offer the position to.

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Don't reflect our society, don't reflect the people who you will be serving

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in your school community, then you say, now we need to do something to figure

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out how to get some more people who look like our students, some more people

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who relate to the communities.

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That B approach would be adding on, right?

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That would be leading and seeking out and trying to kind of like fill in,

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compensate for the inadequacies of that candidate pool and for who you actually

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saw as viable teachers or leaders in your district.

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The first approach where you're writing the job description,

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you're creating an interview panel with people from the community,

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with students who can understand what these folks bring, that you're making

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sure that the qualifications reflect the commitment.

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And the leadership part is making sure that the interview process and the recruitment

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process has all of that baked in from the very idea that you want to bring people

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in, as opposed to a kind of neutral, we're going to hire and see who we get.

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We know what happens when there's not a commitment, intentional commitment at

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the front end, then you kind of do the add-on piece. So that's just one example.

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And in a lot of schools and a lot of districts, we see people having a commitment

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to equity in order to fix the inequitable ways that they're already at,

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that they're already engaged in.

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And that's what we would consider. That's what I I consider kind of like add on equity, right?

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So equity leadership, where you add something on as opposed to it being something

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that you have thought about from the very beginning.

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Dr. Irby, I love one of the phrases that you use near the end is something being baked in.

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And it made me think of Terrence Green, who's a colleague, one of the co-authors in the book.

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He talks about the idea of equity sprinkles.

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So, you know, people always try to like sprinkle this stuff on the top when

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it isn't, you know, the cake. He tells the story about a friend who baked the

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cake that just was terrible.

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And no matter how many sprinkles you put on the top, it's not going to actually fix that cake.

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You actually have to start over from scratch and bake these things in,

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you know, as you go. And I'm thinking also about Maurice Sweeney,

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who is another co-author in one of the chapters.

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He talks about this sort of dynamic where there's a lot of, people expect people

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to do these initiatives.

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They want a new program. They want an initiative. And what happens when you

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do all these just initiatives or programs is they tend to sit off to the side

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as their own separate thing, rather than actually integrating across all the

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different work that happens in a school or in a system.

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So that's that quote really, I think, brings all of those dynamics to mind.

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Okay. All right. So now this will be a collaborative effort, I guess.

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I need you all to give me a number between 1 and 20.

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14. Oh, okay. So 14. All right. Okay.

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What does the idea of a better world mean to you? Oh, wow. That's a good question.

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I'm going to let you start off, Anne. I started the first question. All right.

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Oh, I actually love this question. I think it's a question we need to be asking

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more often because I think this sort of muscle that we have of imagining something

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other than what we already have is underdeveloped as we can feel so attacked

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by all of the broader dynamics,

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these long histories of racism and white supremacy, and then like the in-the-moment

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stuff that we can sort of only be limited by what we can imagine in this moment within these bounds.

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So for me, I think about, was it like a future of thriving where communities

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are able to be self-determining, where we think about kids learning that's not

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bound just by the four walls of the school,

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but is expanding out into the community.

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And that we think about success, not only as kids getting good grades,

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doing well in school and graduating,

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but actually being able to develop habits for learning things that are important to them,

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that are making change in the world to make it a better place and building a

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sense of responsibility and

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kind of collective investment in the thriving everyone in their community.

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Yeah. When I think about.

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What a better world would mean. It would be for me a place, the word that comes

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to mind is for me is dignity, where people would experience a sense of dignity.

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And by dignity, I mean really this deep kind of sense of self-worth and a recognition

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of self-worth combined with the capacity to see the self-worth of other people

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and other things, right? So for example, our environment.

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And it's not just a sense of self for just one self, which I always remind people

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that it has to be a both, right? You can see the value in yourself.

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You can also see the value and the worth in other people.

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Martin Luther King called this somebodiness. He talked quite a bit about somebodiness,

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especially when he started talking about economic justice, militarism, and racism.

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And he really was, you know, a lot of times started talking about like,

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you know, we're working towards achieving a kind of sense of somebody and it's

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where everybody feels like they're a person.

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So I feel like that's what in the tradition that I work in, you know.

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That's what I think a better world would look like, a place where people can

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experience that and how that relates to children and schools.

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Of course, the children, the schools would be developing and cultivating a sense

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of worth amongst children.

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It would also be helping them see the value of all of the people who are in

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front of them and the people who they're going to encounter through their throughout their life.

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So I know that's a big, broad, philosophical way of thinking about it. But that's what I think.

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And more concretely, that means economic security, housing security, food security.

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And when I say security, I'm specifically speaking about the the experience

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of waking up in the morning and being able to anticipate that you're going to

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have your needs met that day, every day.

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So that's what you know, and that can be like safety that can be All these different

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things when I say security, it's not just about it's a sense of Predictability

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relative predictability that you're going to be okay walking through the world,

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And a lot of people don't have that, unfortunately. Yeah. So what was the motivation behind this book?

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Well, there's kind of a couple of stories, but, you know, one of them has to

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do with the two of us and then also Dr.

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Terrence Green sitting around probably 2016 and starting to realize that we

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had colleagues, friends, people we knew in our own areas who were starting to

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take up this role of equity director and equity leadership.

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And, you know, saying, you know, what do we know about this role?

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How is this emerging in multiple places? So I'm in the Northwest.

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Dakota was in Chicago. Terrence is in Texas. I'm realizing this isn't just something

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that's happening locally, but it's starting to happen nationally.

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I know you're in Atlanta. Atlanta also has these roles.

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And, you know, trying to figure out sort of at the moment what's going on,

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what are these folks doing, and how is that making change, especially for the

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folks who are living this every day, living in educational injustices.

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But then it sort of became this

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much broader thing as we undertook this research across almost 10 years.

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And then we tried to make sense of like, what is happening across time?

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So we have this notion that leadership matters and context matters and leadership

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is contextual, right? But we wanted to get more specific than that.

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So, okay, yeah, we can say something different is happening.

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The conditions are different in Atlanta than they are in Chicago,

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than they are in Seattle.

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But we're also seeing that across time.

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The social political dynamics are changing in really dramatic ways.

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So I'm going to cue up Decoteau here because the way that we organized our book

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has to do with these cycles of equity leadership.

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And so we're talking about how there was a kind of awakening in 2014 or so that

00:19:18.948 --> 00:19:22.368
brought us all the way up to when the book came out and then the dynamics that

00:19:22.368 --> 00:19:24.608
are happening right now in 2026.

00:19:24.828 --> 00:19:28.728
I cued Decoteau up to kind of share that piece of the story. Yeah.

00:19:29.088 --> 00:19:34.128
So we really kind of the book covers a period from the end of the Obama administration,

00:19:34.128 --> 00:19:38.148
which we situate kind of like the emergence of these equity leaders at the end

00:19:38.148 --> 00:19:39.288
of the Obama administration,

00:19:39.628 --> 00:19:44.708
right around the time when, you know, George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin.

00:19:44.708 --> 00:19:46.668
We heard the 9-1-1 calls.

00:19:46.928 --> 00:19:51.388
It created kind of this awakening, this consciousness in our country for a relatively

00:19:51.388 --> 00:19:54.628
very brief moment of time. We had Million Hoodies movement.

00:19:54.848 --> 00:19:58.188
This is when we saw the initial seed of the Black Lives movement being planted

00:19:58.188 --> 00:20:03.748
in the social media space and in the digital media space. And then we kind of

00:20:03.748 --> 00:20:08.908
like fast forward to the election of Donald Trump. Right. It's 2016.

00:20:09.448 --> 00:20:15.288
Then we move forward to George Floyd being murdered by Derek Chauvin.

00:20:15.688 --> 00:20:20.508
And through all of these periods, what we argue is that this awakening ushered

00:20:20.508 --> 00:20:25.628
in a moment of where people wanted to do something. People wanted to take action.

00:20:25.788 --> 00:20:29.468
And the initial thing that a lot of districts started to do was to hire these

00:20:29.468 --> 00:20:31.128
equity leaders, these equity directors.

00:20:31.808 --> 00:20:35.428
So these people started to do things like create the policies that we see in

00:20:35.428 --> 00:20:37.848
a lot of districts throughout the country right now. Unfortunately,

00:20:38.068 --> 00:20:39.388
many of them have been rolled back.

00:20:40.146 --> 00:20:43.786
Since Trump's first year in office with his executive orders.

00:20:44.026 --> 00:20:47.746
But these are people who created equity policies, created affinity spaces.

00:20:47.746 --> 00:20:50.026
They started to look at data different kind of ways.

00:20:50.206 --> 00:20:53.146
They started to think about professional development of teachers and leaders

00:20:53.146 --> 00:20:54.126
in different kind of ways.

00:20:54.366 --> 00:20:58.106
And so and then we saw some more outward forward kind of things like school

00:20:58.106 --> 00:21:01.406
districts starting to celebrate Juneteenth, those sorts of things.

00:21:01.906 --> 00:21:06.306
Fast forward and then we move into a period that we call midday.

00:21:06.546 --> 00:21:11.846
So we had awakenings and mornings. And by midday, we saw substantial investment.

00:21:12.026 --> 00:21:16.766
This was after this was 2020 with the COVID pandemic and the racial uprisings

00:21:16.766 --> 00:21:20.286
that resulted from Derek Chauvin killing George Floyd.

00:21:20.566 --> 00:21:29.226
And we saw a proliferation of equity kind of activity and substantial resources

00:21:29.226 --> 00:21:30.946
invested in this kind of work. Right.

00:21:31.106 --> 00:21:34.106
And so we call this like, you know, midday where things were in the open.

00:21:34.306 --> 00:21:37.006
You could you could be Black Lives Matter.

00:21:37.306 --> 00:21:40.766
You know, you could be trans lives matter. You could be all of these different

00:21:40.766 --> 00:21:48.086
things openly and you wouldn't face as much hostility. But the hostility throughout

00:21:48.086 --> 00:21:51.046
this entire period was continually bubbling underneath.

00:21:52.038 --> 00:21:56.098
Which eventually led to people doing things like, you know, trying to take over

00:21:56.098 --> 00:21:59.678
school boards, book bans, all of these different sorts of things.

00:21:59.818 --> 00:22:04.658
So there's backlash to this proliferation of equity and justice,

00:22:04.878 --> 00:22:07.898
consciousness and action and leadership in schools.

00:22:08.118 --> 00:22:11.678
And before long, we moved into a period that we call evenings.

00:22:11.698 --> 00:22:16.038
And the evenings are when the activity started to be more subdued.

00:22:16.038 --> 00:22:18.758
People are not saying anti-racism anymore.

00:22:18.938 --> 00:22:21.878
They might be saying like student belonging and cultural relevance,

00:22:21.878 --> 00:22:26.058
but they might not be focused on the specific intentional language around like

00:22:26.058 --> 00:22:29.618
Black Lives Matter and that sort of thing. And what we argue at the end of the

00:22:29.618 --> 00:22:31.358
book is that we're now in a period of night.

00:22:31.918 --> 00:22:37.018
We were supposed to get this book into the publisher in November of 2024.

00:22:37.938 --> 00:22:42.698
And like academics do, we were late. And it was actually a silver lining,

00:22:42.838 --> 00:22:46.758
a blessing in disguise, because the election happened in 2024.

00:22:47.278 --> 00:22:52.258
Trump was elected for a second term. And by January, of course,

00:22:52.338 --> 00:22:56.578
he issued this record number of executive orders repealing basically everything

00:22:56.578 --> 00:23:00.038
that goes back to the Obama administration's effort.

00:23:00.198 --> 00:23:03.758
And then shortly thereafter, even things to go back to the 1960s.

00:23:04.438 --> 00:23:08.398
So we argue now that we're in a period of night.

00:23:08.698 --> 00:23:13.658
But one of the questions that we are raising with people as we travel around

00:23:13.658 --> 00:23:17.698
and as we're on podcasts and we're having conversations about this book is the

00:23:17.698 --> 00:23:22.878
question of what do we do and how do we lead for equity and justice under the

00:23:22.878 --> 00:23:24.778
cover of night when it's night, when it's a nighttime.

00:23:25.098 --> 00:23:29.218
So that's a little bit about a broad overview of the conceptual framing of the

00:23:29.218 --> 00:23:33.698
book. So since you brought that up, how has the current Trump administration

00:23:33.698 --> 00:23:37.858
impacted retention of equity leaders and programs?

00:23:39.021 --> 00:23:44.361
Yeah, all over the place, folks, we've noticed that people are losing these

00:23:44.361 --> 00:23:49.421
roles, or they're being transitioned to other roles, or their departments or

00:23:49.421 --> 00:23:51.861
titles are being changed to something else.

00:23:52.261 --> 00:23:57.241
So it depends on the state context in particular, where, you know,

00:23:57.301 --> 00:24:01.881
there are some states where, you know, they've just eliminated these roles entirely.

00:24:02.241 --> 00:24:05.421
In other states, they're transitioning to different language.

00:24:06.001 --> 00:24:12.261
But it's affected all of them. And I think one of the things that we always

00:24:12.261 --> 00:24:13.841
want to kind of bring out, too, is like,

00:24:14.141 --> 00:24:18.641
even though the social political context has been changing so much over this

00:24:18.641 --> 00:24:21.641
relatively short period of time,

00:24:21.821 --> 00:24:25.581
one of the through lines has been the leadership of Black women in particular

00:24:25.581 --> 00:24:30.001
in these roles and in equity leadership, even when they're not in these roles.

00:24:30.001 --> 00:24:34.721
Because after that initial research that we did,

00:24:34.861 --> 00:24:38.681
we continued on, but we expanded it to think about who are the many different

00:24:38.681 --> 00:24:42.961
players in a given educational system who are leading for equity,

00:24:42.961 --> 00:24:46.381
who don't necessarily have just that one singular role.

00:24:46.381 --> 00:24:51.921
So one of the things that we're seeing is that Black women were really at the vanguard.

00:24:52.241 --> 00:24:56.181
And again, that's not new. That's been the case since way before this time.

00:24:56.601 --> 00:25:01.181
But it also means that they are likely disproportionately losing their roles.

00:25:01.281 --> 00:25:04.841
We know that that's the case nationally in terms of other leadership roles.

00:25:05.701 --> 00:25:10.641
So I think education is very much following in that pattern.

00:25:11.081 --> 00:25:14.581
And I think there's a kind of twofold.

00:25:14.721 --> 00:25:20.381
One, we're coming out of this time when that kind of professionalization of

00:25:20.381 --> 00:25:24.841
equity in systems was pretty new.

00:25:24.841 --> 00:25:30.221
And it was very brief. But it doesn't mean that even though these folks are

00:25:30.221 --> 00:25:35.381
moving into different positions or the positions themselves are moving,

00:25:35.897 --> 00:25:40.797
changing into other things. It doesn't mean, though, that the work isn't happening.

00:25:41.057 --> 00:25:43.177
It means that that, too, is having to change.

00:25:43.577 --> 00:25:51.877
Yeah. I think the only thing I would add is that the speed and kind of intensity

00:25:51.877 --> 00:25:58.357
of this current backlash, you know, under this second Trump administration is very intense.

00:25:58.517 --> 00:26:02.397
But it's important to understand that even historically looking back,

00:26:02.397 --> 00:26:06.377
these were never easy roles for people to be in.

00:26:06.677 --> 00:26:10.457
The people who were in these roles were, you know, Anne has a chapter in the

00:26:10.457 --> 00:26:14.197
book about this idea of this paradox of trying to.

00:26:15.037 --> 00:26:18.777
Of being a person of color, mostly the people or people of color,

00:26:19.117 --> 00:26:27.197
women of color, asked to change a system that is actually designed to kind of

00:26:27.197 --> 00:26:28.937
like destroy who you are, right? Right.

00:26:29.137 --> 00:26:35.337
And so the even though we saw a period where the roles and the equity leadership

00:26:35.337 --> 00:26:37.637
activities and districts was well resourced,

00:26:37.817 --> 00:26:42.417
the resources don't necessarily mean that the work itself was easy because the

00:26:42.417 --> 00:26:46.317
way that, you know, white supremacy works is that it gets into the nooks and

00:26:46.317 --> 00:26:48.177
crannies and crevices, however, it needs to.

00:26:48.597 --> 00:26:53.457
And so this meant that like folks experienced, you know, all kinds of,

00:26:53.477 --> 00:26:56.337
you know, what I call mundane racial violence, these issues.

00:26:56.783 --> 00:27:00.943
Small everyday instances of racism at work, they really wear people down to

00:27:00.943 --> 00:27:02.863
give them racial battle fatigue over time.

00:27:03.043 --> 00:27:05.063
So people experience that kind of thing.

00:27:05.323 --> 00:27:09.783
People experience death threats, threats to their families.

00:27:09.783 --> 00:27:13.363
A lot of people left these roles because, you know, they were in districts and

00:27:13.363 --> 00:27:17.883
in regions of the country where people were extremely hostile to even the idea

00:27:17.883 --> 00:27:20.443
of celebrating Black History Month, for example.

00:27:20.443 --> 00:27:27.283
And especially for the people who were doing equity work around LGBTQI students

00:27:27.283 --> 00:27:32.223
and gender non-conforming students having policies to make sure either they're

00:27:32.223 --> 00:27:33.583
represented in the curriculum,

00:27:33.823 --> 00:27:35.723
that they're not discriminated against their school.

00:27:36.203 --> 00:27:41.303
Those sorts of things were the things that actually had people that people were

00:27:41.303 --> 00:27:45.903
under attack for championing those kinds of causes on behalf of young people in communities.

00:27:45.903 --> 00:27:49.923
So I do want to say that, like now, I think the level of intensity and in particular,

00:27:50.223 --> 00:27:55.563
the federal government's role in supporting the attacks is different than we had in years past.

00:27:56.083 --> 00:27:59.563
But the attacks have been happening at multiple different levels,

00:27:59.803 --> 00:28:05.243
municipal level, district level, state level, for example, in Texas has been going on for a while.

00:28:05.703 --> 00:28:08.863
All of these kinds of different things, these attacks have been happening.

00:28:08.863 --> 00:28:14.883
And so how I kind of see it is that right now, the districts that didn't want

00:28:14.883 --> 00:28:20.643
equity and leadership and justice work happening in their schools now have multiple

00:28:20.643 --> 00:28:26.563
layers of weight of enforcement to stop and to thwart the work that's actually happening.

00:28:26.563 --> 00:28:32.423
So I just wanted to mention that because Trump, this particular era is new and I think different,

00:28:32.443 --> 00:28:39.123
but also there's some continuity in terms of how people have been treated who

00:28:39.123 --> 00:28:46.383
try to do work on behalf of children who historically schools haven't worked well to represent,

00:28:46.603 --> 00:28:48.843
educate or, you know, set up for life success.

00:28:49.869 --> 00:28:55.289
So let's dig into the paradox a little bit. How does the paradox of education

00:28:55.289 --> 00:29:01.449
that James Baldwin talked about create challenges in reshaping the educational system?

00:29:01.969 --> 00:29:06.929
And Dr. Irby, you set it up pretty good. So, you know, Dr.

00:29:07.069 --> 00:29:10.369
Ishimaru, do you want to add on to that?

00:29:11.289 --> 00:29:15.249
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think so. I'm thinking especially about,

00:29:15.609 --> 00:29:19.229
I want to, like, Shannon Page Clark wrote a chapter called Shock to the System.

00:29:19.229 --> 00:29:25.749
She talks about the Black women's leadership in especially what she calls nice white districts,

00:29:26.169 --> 00:29:31.489
which, you know, I think in many ways, even districts that where she argues

00:29:31.489 --> 00:29:36.229
that even in districts that are not predominantly white, the dynamics of nice

00:29:36.229 --> 00:29:38.329
whiteness are often playing out.

00:29:38.909 --> 00:29:41.869
You know, in schools and in systems amongst the adults.

00:29:41.869 --> 00:29:50.369
So I think the paradox is, on the one hand, these are folks who bring enormous expertise.

00:29:50.809 --> 00:29:56.969
Often we found that Black women often had more credentials and more higher education.

00:29:57.209 --> 00:30:02.569
They had a lot of experience, often in a classroom and different levels of the

00:30:02.569 --> 00:30:05.249
system. And then they bring their own lived experiences.

00:30:05.609 --> 00:30:12.089
And then at the same time, their identities are sort of the kind of expertise

00:30:12.089 --> 00:30:14.529
that they bring isn't valued.

00:30:14.529 --> 00:30:19.189
It's often undermined. So she talks about these dynamics where like,

00:30:19.489 --> 00:30:24.049
you know, people are sitting around a table, the equity director or an equity leader,

00:30:24.389 --> 00:30:29.189
especially a woman, black woman, will be trying to weigh in and talk about,

00:30:29.389 --> 00:30:32.129
say, there's a social emotional learning curriculum, for example,

00:30:32.309 --> 00:30:38.489
and there is a need to address how that plays out differently for children of color.

00:30:38.989 --> 00:30:43.709
Children who experience racialized trauma versus children who haven't.

00:30:44.189 --> 00:30:47.709
But that's not even part of the conversation. So this leader knows that she

00:30:47.709 --> 00:30:51.549
needs to bring that up and raise that as an issue that needs to be addressed

00:30:51.549 --> 00:30:53.929
in that curriculum and the delivery and the implementation.

00:30:54.309 --> 00:30:58.629
But at the same time, she knows that the people around the table are going to

00:30:58.629 --> 00:31:00.629
expect her to say something like that.

00:31:00.769 --> 00:31:05.049
And then there's this automatic sort of undermining of their expertise.

00:31:05.549 --> 00:31:10.889
So there's this like dynamic where it's their job to go in and disrupt the system.

00:31:10.889 --> 00:31:15.629
And at the same time, all the dynamics that are operating to maintain the status

00:31:15.629 --> 00:31:19.929
quo are set up to undermine their leadership and their expertise.

00:31:19.929 --> 00:31:24.649
They're often seen through these racialized and gendered lenses of being angry

00:31:24.649 --> 00:31:28.289
or too aggressive, whereas this is a different district now.

00:31:28.289 --> 00:31:32.149
They would notice a white man would say something very similar,

00:31:32.369 --> 00:31:36.329
like raise issues around the need for other languages and communications with

00:31:36.329 --> 00:31:38.009
families that are predominantly Latino.

00:31:38.369 --> 00:31:43.409
And this other leader would be perceived as, you know, like really passionate

00:31:43.409 --> 00:31:47.729
and getting down to business and really serious about equity.

00:31:47.829 --> 00:31:52.029
Whereas the same comment would be raised by women of color would be seen as

00:31:52.029 --> 00:31:54.949
too aggressive, making people uncomfortable.

00:31:55.389 --> 00:32:03.369
So that's the kind of paradox that these folks are navigating all of the time. And as Dr. Irby said, it.

00:32:04.840 --> 00:32:12.100
It has this racial battle fatigue dynamic that plays out in very systematic ways.

00:32:13.540 --> 00:32:21.240
Yeah. So explain the significance of the big red truck with the Confederate flag.

00:32:21.840 --> 00:32:26.260
Yeah. So this was a story that our colleague, Shannon Clark,

00:32:26.560 --> 00:32:31.660
who's at University of Maryland Eastern Shore, contributed to the book.

00:32:32.260 --> 00:32:39.120
And so she tells the story of a superintendent of equity and having a conversation

00:32:39.120 --> 00:32:42.220
where so this big red truck was sitting out and this is in the midwest this

00:32:42.220 --> 00:32:45.580
is not i should say this is not in the south because i'm from south carolina

00:32:45.580 --> 00:32:47.960
so these big red trucks are everywhere in south carolina,

00:32:48.500 --> 00:32:53.160
but this was in the midwest in a place where the confederate flag is not something

00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:59.220
that you see frequently and for someone in the midwest to fly or have the confederate

00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:01.960
flag is like in my opinion, a deliberate,

00:33:02.260 --> 00:33:06.540
a kind of deliberate kind of, you know, provocation.

00:33:07.980 --> 00:33:12.660
So at this particular district, there was a truck, a big red truck with the

00:33:12.660 --> 00:33:18.180
Confederate flag on it that this person would park right in front of the district's

00:33:18.180 --> 00:33:20.640
entrance to go into the kind of district building.

00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:24.500
So when people had to go into a board meeting or do any kind of official business

00:33:24.500 --> 00:33:26.420
with the school district, they walked past this truck.

00:33:27.600 --> 00:33:33.680
So Dr. Clark was interviewing this superintendent of equity and asked her about

00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:36.680
the truck because this superintendent of equity is talking about we're trying

00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:41.500
to make sure, you know, people feel safe, right? Coming to school and they feel like they belong.

00:33:41.900 --> 00:33:46.680
And so Dr. Clark asked, you know, if the goal is safety and belonging,

00:33:46.840 --> 00:33:50.180
like what's going on with the big red truck with the Confederate flag on it outside?

00:33:50.800 --> 00:33:53.060
And it was interesting because, you know.

00:33:53.786 --> 00:33:58.726
The superintendent of equity at the time acknowledged the truck,

00:33:59.046 --> 00:34:03.566
but had almost done this thing where she blocked the truck out of her mind.

00:34:04.026 --> 00:34:08.946
Right. And so in that chapter, she writes about these like strategies,

00:34:09.226 --> 00:34:13.046
these kind of micro strategies that women in particular, black women,

00:34:13.146 --> 00:34:16.226
her whole chapter is about black women, that black women adopt to be able to

00:34:16.226 --> 00:34:19.986
do this work, to show up to work, to fight for black children,

00:34:20.146 --> 00:34:22.686
Latinx children, right? English language coachliners.

00:34:23.086 --> 00:34:28.346
And one of the strategies in that story was that she had kind of blocked it out.

00:34:28.466 --> 00:34:32.086
And she told Dr. Clark, who was interviewing, like, she said,

00:34:32.186 --> 00:34:34.146
I'm surprised I know about it.

00:34:34.266 --> 00:34:37.626
And I'm surprised you brought that up because I've tried to,

00:34:37.766 --> 00:34:41.406
you know, she was just like, I've noticed it, but I don't notice it.

00:34:41.626 --> 00:34:47.126
And that was, that's an interesting kind of psychological kind of coping mechanism,

00:34:47.326 --> 00:34:52.026
this kind of approach that this, you know, leader wasn't even fully aware that

00:34:52.026 --> 00:34:57.086
she had adopted that helped her actually be able to show up to work and fight every day.

00:34:57.466 --> 00:35:02.826
So that chapter is a heavy one because it really writes about the kind of the

00:35:02.826 --> 00:35:05.526
emotional labor that black women give.

00:35:05.726 --> 00:35:09.646
So we think times about labor, about, you know, people moving from school to

00:35:09.646 --> 00:35:15.206
school, but there's this kind of emotional labor that people who do the work of equity,

00:35:15.366 --> 00:35:21.946
leadership and justice give to districts that's not compensated, that's not recognized.

00:35:22.586 --> 00:35:24.526
That's ignored, that's not talked about.

00:35:24.726 --> 00:35:31.126
And so that story is a really powerful example of the provocations that people

00:35:31.126 --> 00:35:37.046
who do this kind of work experience outside of the South and a powerful example

00:35:37.046 --> 00:35:40.846
of the kind of strategies and coping mechanisms,

00:35:40.846 --> 00:35:45.706
whether they're adaptive or maladaptive that people adopt to try to fight for

00:35:45.706 --> 00:35:47.146
our children and young people.

00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:55.699
Yeah. I know we're kind of pressing on time, but I got three more questions I really want to ask.

00:35:56.279 --> 00:35:59.179
And if you indulge me. Yes, let's do it.

00:35:59.739 --> 00:36:05.619
What is the importance of appreciating the fruits of unsuccessful leadership?

00:36:06.539 --> 00:36:12.739
Yeah, this is a chapter. I'll get us started because this is a chapter that Dr.

00:36:12.779 --> 00:36:18.339
Irby really was part of leading. And so early on, I mentioned that we had done

00:36:18.339 --> 00:36:23.479
this research with folks who were what we call doing seating work in this morning time.

00:36:23.739 --> 00:36:28.559
And at the time, they were doing all of this work with policy,

00:36:28.919 --> 00:36:33.159
with different stakeholders, with professional development.

00:36:33.159 --> 00:36:39.339
And you would ask them during this time, and many of them felt like the efforts

00:36:39.339 --> 00:36:42.279
that they were putting in place weren't...

00:36:42.659 --> 00:36:47.939
Realizing the change that they expected and wanted to see in that time.

00:36:48.419 --> 00:36:51.839
And I think one of the things that the benefit, you know, a lot of research

00:36:51.839 --> 00:36:55.779
is just like a year, you know, like nine months or something like that.

00:36:55.999 --> 00:36:57.519
And maybe at most it's 18 months.

00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:02.299
One of the benefits that we had of doing this kind of work across such a long

00:37:02.299 --> 00:37:07.679
period of time is that we could see that what those leaders at the time felt

00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:09.299
like wasn't successful,

00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:11.919
ended up planting really crucial

00:37:11.919 --> 00:37:16.759
seeds that the next generation of equity leaders were able to build from.

00:37:17.059 --> 00:37:21.299
So, for instance, when we get to the daytime, we hear from Maurice Swinney,

00:37:21.359 --> 00:37:27.319
and one of the first things he did, actually also this equity leader in the chapter by Dr.

00:37:27.859 --> 00:37:34.879
Clark also talks about using policies that got developed by folks in the earlier

00:37:34.879 --> 00:37:38.799
times in other districts and being

00:37:38.799 --> 00:37:43.619
able to build from those to think about both, what do we not want to do?

00:37:43.759 --> 00:37:48.019
What are some of the, you know, sort of the roadblocks that we can actually

00:37:48.019 --> 00:37:52.799
go around, but also what can we build from and move forward in our district?

00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:58.199
So in retrospect, you can see that all of the, you know, all of the kind of

00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:02.399
the policy work and the ongoing routines that got built into different parts

00:38:02.399 --> 00:38:04.759
of everyday decision-making,

00:38:05.019 --> 00:38:10.419
for example, in school districts, all of those were kind of seeded in this earlier time.

00:38:10.619 --> 00:38:15.719
And many of the districts, those leaders turned over before they were able to

00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:20.859
see those things emerge and, you know, come bear fruit.

00:38:21.139 --> 00:38:25.859
So I think that was the, you know, they saw it as unsuccessful at the time.

00:38:25.999 --> 00:38:29.399
But the benefit is that over time, We were able to see that it was actually

00:38:29.399 --> 00:38:34.739
really essential in enabling some of the policies and the practices and the

00:38:34.739 --> 00:38:38.699
routines and the outcomes that we were able to see in later times.

00:38:39.779 --> 00:38:45.519
All right. Why should we avoid the constant cycle of chasing rabbits?

00:38:47.699 --> 00:38:52.919
So the kind of like chasing piece and putting out fires, those that was the

00:38:52.919 --> 00:38:55.039
kind of language that a lot of people used.

00:38:55.419 --> 00:39:01.679
It's exhausting and it doesn't get people who are doing the work of equity leadership

00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:03.639
very far. It's not impactful.

00:39:03.959 --> 00:39:07.539
And what we talk about in terms of like chasing rabbits or putting out fires,

00:39:07.539 --> 00:39:14.699
these are this is the practice of when something happens at you know let's say

00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:19.639
there's a district there's 25 schools in the district something happens at school

00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:22.859
number five the equity leader.

00:39:23.719 --> 00:39:28.039
Is deployed to school number five to try to talk to people try to figure out

00:39:28.039 --> 00:39:32.919
what's going on and then something happens at school number 12 and then they

00:39:32.919 --> 00:39:35.619
run and try to figure out how they can help the people at school number 12.

00:39:35.999 --> 00:39:39.479
And then something happens at a board meeting. And then they have to go through

00:39:39.479 --> 00:39:42.319
a training and they have to help the board figure out and process what's going on.

00:39:42.459 --> 00:39:45.659
And then somebody sends a message to the superintendent.

00:39:46.279 --> 00:39:50.079
And then they have to go and counsel and give therapy to the superintendent,

00:39:50.299 --> 00:39:52.579
the white male superintendent, about what they can do.

00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:58.579
That's the kind of like putting out fires approach that a lot of people described as,

00:39:59.089 --> 00:40:03.589
Early on, we're talking 2015, 16, 17, the people who were doing the work right

00:40:03.589 --> 00:40:07.229
about that time, they were doing a lot of kind of putting out fires.

00:40:07.429 --> 00:40:11.089
And if they weren't, their districts wanted them to put out a lot of fires.

00:40:11.389 --> 00:40:14.389
And it was interesting because by the time thinking about, you know,

00:40:14.449 --> 00:40:21.749
this idea of planting seeds by the time, you know, 2020 rolls around 2019, 2020 rolls around.

00:40:22.409 --> 00:40:25.109
Folks understand coming into the roles that that's not what they're going to

00:40:25.109 --> 00:40:28.629
be doing, that they can't do that, that it's not a useful practice.

00:40:29.149 --> 00:40:34.529
And so we saw a lot less of that and a lot people didn't people describe not doing that.

00:40:34.649 --> 00:40:39.889
And instead, during the midday, people talked about a lot about institutionalizing change.

00:40:40.109 --> 00:40:43.749
Right. And so what that meant was instead of like being in a leadership role

00:40:43.749 --> 00:40:46.789
where you're going to school five, school 12 and school 14.

00:40:46.789 --> 00:40:49.709
Instead you're creating the kind of learning

00:40:49.709 --> 00:40:53.209
processes for professional development and learning that allows

00:40:53.209 --> 00:40:56.369
you to pull people from every school and get

00:40:56.369 --> 00:40:59.249
people from every school and build their capacity to address

00:40:59.249 --> 00:41:02.189
issues at their local site that meant things

00:41:02.189 --> 00:41:05.449
like having principals participate in

00:41:05.449 --> 00:41:09.409
professional development it meant forming equity leadership teams at the school

00:41:09.409 --> 00:41:15.389
level it meant creating student affinity groups like black student unions latinos

00:41:15.389 --> 00:41:20.669
united It meant making sure that the curriculum is diverse so that people develop

00:41:20.669 --> 00:41:24.529
the capacity over the time to deal with the issues that emerge in their own setting.

00:41:24.689 --> 00:41:29.529
And so we started to see equity leadership really be conceptualized as this

00:41:29.529 --> 00:41:30.489
much more strategic approach.

00:41:31.821 --> 00:41:35.381
Approach to actually facilitating the

00:41:35.381 --> 00:41:38.521
kind of like institutional changes that makes the

00:41:38.521 --> 00:41:42.881
putting out fires and chasing rabbits approach obsolete where you don't need

00:41:42.881 --> 00:41:47.501
to do that because the system itself starts to develop the capacity and the

00:41:47.501 --> 00:41:51.361
people within the system start to develop the capacity to address a lot of these

00:41:51.361 --> 00:41:55.781
issues without having a call on on one individual or group of people to come

00:41:55.781 --> 00:41:57.661
and help quote unquote, save them.

00:41:58.541 --> 00:42:01.861
Yeah. All right. In your conclusion, by the way,

00:42:02.521 --> 00:42:07.761
those last two questions, those, those are really like very important primers

00:42:07.761 --> 00:42:13.861
for people in politics because you can get in and, you know,

00:42:14.001 --> 00:42:17.201
your term is up or, you know, you don't get reelected or whatever.

00:42:17.301 --> 00:42:20.941
And then you look back and say, did I really do what I wanted to do?

00:42:21.041 --> 00:42:28.361
And then so many years down the road, you see the legislation you push through actually bear fruit.

00:42:28.781 --> 00:42:33.201
And then the other thing is politics is very reactionary.

00:42:33.861 --> 00:42:38.641
And it's like, okay, you know, instead of visionary leadership and saying,

00:42:38.761 --> 00:42:41.361
okay, we're going to introduce this legislation to stop this,

00:42:41.581 --> 00:42:43.621
right? Because that was a question I always got to ask.

00:42:44.081 --> 00:42:47.301
We're not dealing with this right now. Why are you introducing this bill?

00:42:47.401 --> 00:42:50.161
And it's like, maybe because we don't want to deal with that in the future.

00:42:50.421 --> 00:42:53.641
But anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there that it's not this limited

00:42:53.641 --> 00:42:56.101
to education, those concepts that y'all talked about.

00:42:56.841 --> 00:43:04.661
In your conclusion, you quoted Nikki Giovanni, if the enslaved could believe, I know I can.

00:43:05.061 --> 00:43:09.481
How does that convey what you want readers to take away from this book?

00:43:10.207 --> 00:43:13.347
It goes back to that question that you asked us near the beginning,

00:43:13.567 --> 00:43:21.067
the number 14 question about what is it that we can imagine and work towards.

00:43:21.347 --> 00:43:24.987
And I think right now in this moment, especially, it's hard to imagine.

00:43:25.227 --> 00:43:29.007
We've got, like you think about what's happening in Minneapolis and the kind

00:43:29.007 --> 00:43:33.087
of assault that young people and families and communities are experiencing in

00:43:33.087 --> 00:43:39.607
their schools can be really hard to imagine that we could move towards something really different.

00:43:39.607 --> 00:43:43.287
But I think that's one of the things that we heard over and over again,

00:43:43.507 --> 00:43:49.007
especially from the Black woman, is that this is generational work.

00:43:49.267 --> 00:43:52.467
And so when we put it in that broader, longer arc of history,

00:43:52.467 --> 00:43:57.507
we can see, yes, it's sort of heightened in particular kinds of ways right now.

00:43:57.507 --> 00:44:07.587
And we have this whole history as Americans of making change and realizing justice

00:44:07.587 --> 00:44:10.987
across time that we are a part of.

00:44:11.087 --> 00:44:14.427
That's what this broader effort is about. And so I think.

00:44:14.907 --> 00:44:18.467
You know, as we're at night now, one of the things that we're seeing as all

00:44:18.467 --> 00:44:19.287
of these things are getting,

00:44:19.547 --> 00:44:24.187
you know, like the formal structures are being dismantled, also seeing that

00:44:24.187 --> 00:44:30.307
the ways that educators and leaders in systems are working strategically to

00:44:30.307 --> 00:44:33.427
build these networks of community and care.

00:44:33.647 --> 00:44:37.027
I'm thinking also about like what's happening in Minneapolis and the incredible

00:44:37.027 --> 00:44:39.047
sort of collective movement.

00:44:39.249 --> 00:44:43.329
Collective mutual aid and action that's happening there on the ground.

00:44:43.569 --> 00:44:49.469
And I think about, in particular, there's a chapter near the end about a group of Black principals.

00:44:49.589 --> 00:44:53.549
They call themselves the Black Lady Principals who were sort of dissatisfied

00:44:53.549 --> 00:44:57.449
with the pacing and accountability that was happening at their district level.

00:44:57.589 --> 00:45:02.349
And they took it upon themselves, not just to kind of lead in their own school

00:45:02.349 --> 00:45:06.529
context and their own school community, but to actually then connect with each

00:45:06.529 --> 00:45:10.489
other and develop this network so that their leadership could expand beyond that.

00:45:10.709 --> 00:45:16.449
So, you know, I always want to say, you know, I think a big lesson takeaway for us from those.

00:45:17.029 --> 00:45:20.989
You know, from what we've learned in the evening time, but across time is really

00:45:20.989 --> 00:45:26.329
don't wait for permission or a role or a charge, though all of us can take that

00:45:26.329 --> 00:45:28.689
up. Find your people, don't do it by yourself.

00:45:29.490 --> 00:45:32.890
And then we all have got to start coloring outside the lines.

00:45:33.570 --> 00:45:38.190
That's the only thing that's going to help us realize something that might seem

00:45:38.190 --> 00:45:43.650
improbable or implausible in terms of trying to realize more just schools and communities.

00:45:44.110 --> 00:45:49.330
But that we didn't get there historically by coloring inside the lines.

00:45:49.490 --> 00:45:51.470
So we got to be coloring outside the lines.

00:45:52.230 --> 00:45:55.290
Yeah. Yeah, I think I add that, you know,

00:45:55.710 --> 00:45:59.030
there are the there's belief,

00:45:59.330 --> 00:46:03.450
but there's also these very kind of like small micro practices,

00:46:03.710 --> 00:46:09.090
these small things that whatever the condition is, whatever who's attacking,

00:46:09.210 --> 00:46:14.030
there's these small things that people who have experienced oppression do for

00:46:14.030 --> 00:46:16.370
their children, for their young people that advanced them.

00:46:16.370 --> 00:46:20.030
You know, I grew up in South Carolina and there's this like tradition with,

00:46:20.050 --> 00:46:23.550
you know, elders and older people kind of like they call it palm and they put

00:46:23.550 --> 00:46:24.590
a little bit of money in your hand.

00:46:24.690 --> 00:46:27.070
Nobody sees it, though. They kind of get up to you.

00:46:27.290 --> 00:46:30.950
You did pretty or you put some effort forward in school and they put that little

00:46:30.950 --> 00:46:34.310
put that little dollar in your hands and whisper to you real low.

00:46:34.630 --> 00:46:36.110
I'm proud of you. You did good.

00:46:36.890 --> 00:46:40.750
I imagine that enslaved people did a lot of that.

00:46:41.607 --> 00:46:46.067
That's resistance. That's, you know, that's not only believing,

00:46:46.307 --> 00:46:49.127
but telling a person that you believe in them.

00:46:49.767 --> 00:46:53.387
And I think that, you know, even with my grandmother now, you know,

00:46:53.507 --> 00:46:56.607
people kind of like, you know, kind of like, you know, we kind of like laugh

00:46:56.607 --> 00:47:01.367
at it a little bit, but she looks at us with awe, you know, and a lot of the

00:47:01.367 --> 00:47:04.387
elders, you know, my granddad, for example, you know,

00:47:05.087 --> 00:47:08.107
he was amazed that, you know, I wrote books, right.

00:47:08.427 --> 00:47:11.587
And they were just so proud, like, you know, of that sort of thing.

00:47:12.167 --> 00:47:15.847
And a lot of that comes from them de-palming, right?

00:47:15.987 --> 00:47:19.427
It comes from the little encouragement that like nobody else heard.

00:47:19.487 --> 00:47:22.647
It wasn't a political, it wasn't no speech. It wasn't a big speech.

00:47:22.967 --> 00:47:28.307
It's these little acts of resistance to help people see a potential that they

00:47:28.307 --> 00:47:32.327
may not see for themselves if they in the current condition or setting that they're in.

00:47:32.627 --> 00:47:35.327
And in my mind, I think that enslaved folks did a lot of that.

00:47:35.727 --> 00:47:39.407
And so I think that even in a time right now where things seem like,

00:47:39.627 --> 00:47:44.387
well, not seem like, things are, you know, rough for a lot of people.

00:47:44.487 --> 00:47:47.067
Me, I've never lived through something like this. There's people who have.

00:47:47.607 --> 00:47:52.127
I have not, you know, I grew up in the 80s, so Black neighborhoods was under siege.

00:47:52.587 --> 00:47:57.167
But I think that the force of the federal government in particular is a different

00:47:57.167 --> 00:48:03.547
kind of experience to not have any kind of political redress or recourse, because if you,

00:48:03.747 --> 00:48:06.947
they're not going to bring charges against anything that happens even at a state

00:48:06.947 --> 00:48:09.827
or local level as far as we've seen so far.

00:48:10.727 --> 00:48:15.327
So, but I think that, you know, if we know we can do things,

00:48:15.407 --> 00:48:17.227
then we can continue to do them. We don't need.

00:48:18.148 --> 00:48:24.628
The district equity policy for a teacher to instead to palm a student,

00:48:24.848 --> 00:48:27.768
right, to say, hey, I see your effort. You're doing great.

00:48:28.008 --> 00:48:30.348
And I think that the the the the

00:48:30.348 --> 00:48:35.108
when you put all of those smaller actions together, it has a big impact.

00:48:35.308 --> 00:48:39.388
That's what I think those actions get us and have gotten us to where we are

00:48:39.388 --> 00:48:42.528
and they're going to get us to where we want to go as well. That's what I believe.

00:48:43.453 --> 00:48:47.593
All right, guys, finish this sentence. I have hope because.

00:48:48.893 --> 00:48:52.533
You know, I mean, I grew up in the black Baptist church in the South,

00:48:52.573 --> 00:48:56.313
so I would have to say I have hope because like of God and faith.

00:48:56.573 --> 00:49:00.113
You know, I mean, like that sounds that sounds like I'm at the Grammys.

00:49:01.333 --> 00:49:05.993
But, you know, they say I feel like that's OK, you know, like just that's what people say.

00:49:06.113 --> 00:49:09.613
But that's I mean, it's kind of like this this this faith of.

00:49:09.613 --> 00:49:17.853
And I mean, I think also knowing, you know, what people before me have overcome, right?

00:49:18.053 --> 00:49:22.193
So I think those two things, understanding history and then also just having

00:49:22.193 --> 00:49:25.933
a faith that things are going to work out some kind of way somehow.

00:49:26.633 --> 00:49:30.833
For me, I have hope because, you know, I'm thinking about Bad Bunny at the Super

00:49:30.833 --> 00:49:35.173
Bowl and because love wins, because love is stronger than hate,

00:49:35.413 --> 00:49:39.273
because, and I'm Buddhist because things change.

00:49:39.613 --> 00:49:41.533
That's the nature of the universe.

00:49:41.933 --> 00:49:45.253
Because we're interdependent, we depend on each other.

00:49:46.113 --> 00:49:50.173
And because, you know, like also from my own history, I'm Japanese American.

00:49:50.393 --> 00:49:54.453
We're about to come up on the Day of Remembrance, which is February 19th.

00:49:54.633 --> 00:49:59.493
And 120,000 Japanese Americans were incarcerated by our own government.

00:49:59.493 --> 00:50:01.433
So my dad was born in one of the camps.

00:50:01.693 --> 00:50:05.693
So that history is real fresh of the federal government pulling the rug out

00:50:05.693 --> 00:50:10.753
under a whole swath of folks' feet, two-thirds of us were American citizens.

00:50:11.753 --> 00:50:18.373
But my community was able to come through that and to pursue reparations,

00:50:18.373 --> 00:50:24.953
and now are really working to be in solidarity with other communities as all of this is unfolding.

00:50:24.953 --> 00:50:29.033
So I have faith also from my own histories as well.

00:50:29.773 --> 00:50:34.133
All right. So if people want to get this book, how can they do that?

00:50:35.018 --> 00:50:38.278
You can get it from all the places that you can get books, bookshop,

00:50:38.478 --> 00:50:40.098
if you Amazon, you can do Amazon.

00:50:40.318 --> 00:50:45.818
And then you can also find out more about the book and about us at our respective websites.

00:50:46.118 --> 00:50:48.398
So mine is annishimaru.com.

00:50:48.858 --> 00:50:54.718
Yep. And my website is decoteauirby.com. We're also on social media,

00:50:55.098 --> 00:50:57.138
Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook.

00:50:57.778 --> 00:51:07.258
All right. Well, Dr. Ann, excuse me, Ishimaru, I want to congratulate you and

00:51:07.258 --> 00:51:10.418
your Seattle Seahawks for winning the Super Bowl.

00:51:10.798 --> 00:51:15.958
Thank you. And Dr. Decoteau Irby, I don't know if you're a Bears fan or a Carolina

00:51:15.958 --> 00:51:18.358
fan. If you're a Bears fan like

00:51:18.358 --> 00:51:23.058
me, then we'll be having our parade next year. I think so. I think so.

00:51:24.078 --> 00:51:28.558
So I greatly appreciate y'all coming on, seriously. And, you know,

00:51:28.698 --> 00:51:35.358
this is a very, very important topic because all of our children need to be educated.

00:51:35.498 --> 00:51:39.978
And I think we cannot place enough emphasis on education.

00:51:40.458 --> 00:51:44.058
And we want to make sure, as you said in one of your answers,

00:51:44.438 --> 00:51:47.958
that we want our schools to be a safe place.

00:51:47.958 --> 00:51:54.898
I always make the statement that if we're going to be good toward our faith,

00:51:55.238 --> 00:52:00.118
then we have to reach enlightenment and education leads to enlightenment. Right.

00:52:00.378 --> 00:52:05.298
And so if we if we don't have the safe spaces for our children,

00:52:05.498 --> 00:52:09.378
for our next generation, then we're going to continue to have chaos.

00:52:09.378 --> 00:52:11.778
So I appreciate the research that you have done.

00:52:11.958 --> 00:52:15.638
I appreciate the collaboration you've had with others to make this so.

00:52:15.918 --> 00:52:19.578
And I want to encourage y'all to continue to do the good work.

00:52:19.758 --> 00:52:22.498
And again, I want to thank you all for being on this podcast.

00:52:23.438 --> 00:52:25.878
Thank you so much. And thank you for the questions. Thanks so much for having

00:52:25.878 --> 00:52:26.678
me. Really being good. Yeah.

00:52:27.658 --> 00:52:29.038
Terrific questions. Thanks so

00:52:29.038 --> 00:52:31.698
much. All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

00:52:50.961 --> 00:52:58.801
All right, we are back. So now it is time for my next guest, Dr. Karlos K. Hill.

00:52:59.381 --> 00:53:04.721
Karlos K. Hill is a writer, speaker, and community-engaged scholar who brings

00:53:04.721 --> 00:53:07.321
a deeper perspective to historical racism.

00:53:08.061 --> 00:53:11.961
Dr. Hill works with students, leaders, and communities to understand our collective

00:53:11.961 --> 00:53:16.781
past and heal in relation to our most traumatic histories.

00:53:17.421 --> 00:53:22.661
Dr. Hill is Regents Professor of the Clara Looper Department of African and

00:53:22.661 --> 00:53:26.141
African American Studies at the University of Oklahoma Dr.

00:53:26.321 --> 00:53:31.081
Hill is the author of three books, Beyond the Rope, The Impact of Lynching on

00:53:31.081 --> 00:53:35.341
Black Culture and Memory The Murder of Emmett Till, A Graphic History,

00:53:35.601 --> 00:53:40.901
and the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, A Photographic History Dr.

00:53:40.981 --> 00:53:46.261
Hill founded the Tulsa Race Massacre Oklahoma Teachers Institute to support

00:53:46.261 --> 00:53:51.321
teaching the history of the race massacre to thousands of middle and high school students.

00:53:51.601 --> 00:53:55.541
He also serves on the boards of the Freedom Center Planning Committee,

00:53:56.161 --> 00:54:02.021
the Clara Luper Legacy Committee, and the Board of Scholars Facing History and Ourselves,

00:54:02.701 --> 00:54:08.881
and is actively engaged on other community initiatives working toward racial justice.

00:54:08.881 --> 00:54:15.341
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege for the second time

00:54:15.341 --> 00:54:20.781
to have as a guest on this program, Dr. Karlos K. Hill

00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:37.600
All right, Dr. Karlos K. Hill. How you doing, brother? Happy Black History Month.

00:54:38.360 --> 00:54:43.500
Man, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to be a part of your show, be a guest on your show.

00:54:43.720 --> 00:54:48.160
We always have great conversations, but happy Black History Month to you, too.

00:54:49.400 --> 00:54:53.320
Yeah, yeah. And I understand you're in between classes and stuff,

00:54:53.460 --> 00:54:55.460
so we're going to do what we got to do.

00:54:55.460 --> 00:54:58.720
That you gave me some interesting background i

00:54:58.720 --> 00:55:02.500
might i might throw that in my editorial or something as we

00:55:02.500 --> 00:55:05.440
were talking okay that's that's an interesting

00:55:05.440 --> 00:55:10.360
scenario you gotta go through but look like like always we start this off with

00:55:10.360 --> 00:55:17.760
a quote and your quote is we must never forget that black history is american

00:55:17.760 --> 00:55:23.740
history the achievements of african americans have contributed to our nation's greatness.

00:55:24.200 --> 00:55:26.640
What does that quote mean to you? Mm.

00:55:27.540 --> 00:55:31.240
And when I hear that, and if I've said that,

00:55:31.460 --> 00:55:39.580
I've said it in order to raise our consciousness and to raise our consciousness

00:55:39.580 --> 00:55:43.680
and not only our consciousness in relationship to the contributions of black people,

00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:48.860
but for us to really center black people in American history.

00:55:49.140 --> 00:55:53.740
I mean, I would argue You don't have an American history without Black people

00:55:53.740 --> 00:55:57.480
and centering Black people in the nation's history.

00:55:57.640 --> 00:56:02.960
When slavery is 250 years of our nation's history and responsible for the vast

00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:07.160
wealth that this society created, Black people and Black people's history are

00:56:07.160 --> 00:56:09.620
central to American history.

00:56:09.620 --> 00:56:17.880
And so for me, Black History Month is necessary and has been necessary historically

00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:24.420
because those contributions have been systematically erased from school books, from textbooks,

00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:26.840
from knowledge in general.

00:56:27.664 --> 00:56:32.684
And so Black History Month is a reminder of that erasure, but it's also hopeful.

00:56:32.944 --> 00:56:36.484
It's a hopeful holiday in that we can learn more.

00:56:36.664 --> 00:56:43.844
We can improve our understanding and how we see the Black experience as central to American history.

00:56:44.424 --> 00:56:47.444
There's an aspirational element to Black History Month.

00:56:47.444 --> 00:56:55.084
And for that reason, I spent a lot of time during February talking to not just

00:56:55.084 --> 00:56:57.584
to students and audiences,

00:56:57.944 --> 00:57:03.324
but to Black people in Black contexts about our history.

00:57:03.324 --> 00:57:09.804
Because often, and the worst consequence of the erasure is that it removes or

00:57:09.804 --> 00:57:15.044
it prohibits Black people from having an empowering understanding of our history

00:57:15.044 --> 00:57:18.264
and our place in not just American history, but in world history.

00:57:19.384 --> 00:57:25.684
You know, Black History Month is seeking to try to address all of that amnesia, all of that erasure.

00:57:26.144 --> 00:57:28.744
Whether it does it or not is a different thing.

00:57:29.244 --> 00:57:35.584
But the reason why we have it as a sacred institution is because of the erasure, right?

00:57:35.904 --> 00:57:40.304
And so I believe that anything that we can do to center Black people,

00:57:40.604 --> 00:57:45.624
center Black people and the Black experience and talking about America is not

00:57:45.624 --> 00:57:47.824
only a good thing, it's transformative.

00:57:48.344 --> 00:57:53.604
And it's the transformation that we need. So I hope that answers it.

00:57:53.984 --> 00:58:00.184
But that's kind of how I, that's how I that's the place that I teach from okay

00:58:00.184 --> 00:58:04.724
so what does the idea of a better world mean to you.

00:58:05.519 --> 00:58:10.419
Ubuntu is what a better world means to me.

00:58:10.899 --> 00:58:19.779
Ubuntu, if we could get to an Ubuntu, that's U-B-U-N-T-U, an Ubuntu-centered

00:58:19.779 --> 00:58:25.219
understanding of ourselves and the world, the world would be a better place.

00:58:25.439 --> 00:58:29.339
I try to live my life with great Ubuntu, right?

00:58:29.619 --> 00:58:33.899
For me, to live a life of great Ubuntu means to live a life,

00:58:33.899 --> 00:58:38.959
not only joy, but to live a life of kindness, of generosity,

00:58:39.439 --> 00:58:42.239
of compassion for others, right?

00:58:42.459 --> 00:58:47.179
Grounding myself in that ethic, but also extending that ethic to other people

00:58:47.179 --> 00:58:53.519
and how I treat them is for me how to lead a life as an individual,

00:58:53.759 --> 00:58:56.859
but also if we could do that as a collective, right?

00:58:56.979 --> 00:59:02.499
That's what a better world for me looks like. To go deeper with Ubuntu, Ubuntu.

00:59:03.718 --> 00:59:14.198
As a word and a concept, means I am because you are, I am only because you are, we are.

00:59:14.558 --> 00:59:19.098
And so Ubuntu expresses something deeply profound, right?

00:59:19.358 --> 00:59:25.578
That our humanity is interdependent and relational, right?

00:59:25.818 --> 00:59:29.678
I can't be human all by myself.

00:59:30.078 --> 00:59:34.518
My humanity is bound up, is tied to yours.

00:59:35.438 --> 00:59:41.378
And because it is bound up, tied to yours, interwoven with yours,

00:59:41.658 --> 00:59:48.538
how I treat you, not only is about who I am, it's about who we are, right?

00:59:48.618 --> 00:59:51.878
By denying you respect, I deny myself self-respect.

00:59:52.298 --> 00:59:56.818
By denying your humanity, I erode my own, right?

00:59:57.338 --> 01:00:02.398
My humanity is deeply intermissed with yours. When we have that conception,

01:00:02.398 --> 01:00:07.738
right, of ourselves, I think the world is better, right?

01:00:07.918 --> 01:00:12.018
Because that understanding of the world is rooted in a deep compassion.

01:00:12.938 --> 01:00:18.278
A compassion that steers us away from violence, away from ignorance,

01:00:18.898 --> 01:00:23.938
away from intolerance, and toward deep compassion for each other because we

01:00:23.938 --> 01:00:30.618
see ourselves in our lives and our histories as intimately connected and interdependent.

01:00:31.038 --> 01:00:37.838
And so for me, trying to see that understanding of the world is what healing

01:00:37.838 --> 01:00:41.658
history is all about, is what I sort of talk about, even hell,

01:00:42.078 --> 01:00:48.878
I talk a lot of churches preach about is centering

01:00:48.878 --> 01:00:54.878
ubuntu in how we engage with each other dialogically and dialogue but also how

01:00:54.878 --> 01:01:00.378
we understand our history right as interconnected and interdependent not black

01:01:00.378 --> 01:01:04.158
history over there american history over here african history over there no

01:01:04.158 --> 01:01:06.098
we have a common origin story,

01:01:06.932 --> 01:01:14.932
And so that is, I think, those kinds of perspectives are liberating perspectives,

01:01:15.452 --> 01:01:20.652
transformative perspectives that if we can if we can weed them into identities

01:01:20.652 --> 01:01:25.492
in our everyday lives, I think they transform how we treat each other. Yeah.

01:01:26.172 --> 01:01:31.252
All right. This year marks the 100th year of formally celebrating the history

01:01:31.252 --> 01:01:33.452
of African-Americans in the United States.

01:01:33.792 --> 01:01:38.192
Why do you think we have been able to perpetuate this tradition?

01:01:39.178 --> 01:01:48.598
Well, you know, the reason why we are able to perpetuate this tradition of recalling

01:01:48.598 --> 01:01:52.378
and reclaiming our past is because we never lost it.

01:01:52.938 --> 01:01:57.178
We never lost our history. Our history has been suppressed.

01:01:57.898 --> 01:02:02.878
Our history has been demonized. Our history has been minimized,

01:02:02.998 --> 01:02:11.418
but we never lost our sense of identity and not losing a sense of our identity, our history.

01:02:11.418 --> 01:02:18.358
You know, to understand Black history and how it survived slavery and not only

01:02:18.358 --> 01:02:25.458
survived slavery, thrived under slavery, that becomes the basis for a Black identity today.

01:02:25.458 --> 01:02:29.558
What we have to understand about the Black past, the African past,

01:02:29.698 --> 01:02:31.618
is that it was an oral past.

01:02:31.718 --> 01:02:39.098
It was transmitted, preserved, and perpetuated into the future orally,

01:02:39.158 --> 01:02:44.458
and not just orally, through our names, through our traditions,

01:02:44.878 --> 01:02:47.418
through our food ways, right?

01:02:47.618 --> 01:02:54.498
Our history is encoded in the very experience, in the very day-to-day life,

01:02:54.718 --> 01:02:59.118
the mundane day-to-day life of Black people, our history was encoded in the

01:02:59.118 --> 01:03:01.718
practices, encoded in the names.

01:03:01.938 --> 01:03:08.078
And so we didn't forget those things. Those things survived and thrived in these

01:03:08.078 --> 01:03:14.598
Americas and became the basis for not only a common history back in Africa,

01:03:14.598 --> 01:03:17.578
but a common experience in America.

01:03:18.378 --> 01:03:22.498
And so the history was never lost because it was a part of us.

01:03:22.578 --> 01:03:24.618
It was a living, breathing history.

01:03:25.630 --> 01:03:31.130
Founding our clothing, founding how we do, you know, how we curate our hair,

01:03:31.530 --> 01:03:34.310
like how we tell stories through song.

01:03:34.590 --> 01:03:36.690
The history was in the songs.

01:03:37.810 --> 01:03:40.890
The history was in the songs, my dear brother.

01:03:41.370 --> 01:03:48.450
And so the history was never lost because it was never, it never needed to be on paper, in books.

01:03:49.030 --> 01:03:55.050
The books were, we were forbidden from reading, but yet our history survived.

01:03:55.630 --> 01:03:59.330
Because it wasn't textual. It was a living history.

01:03:59.810 --> 01:04:04.050
And so you had to kill black people to kill the history. You couldn't kill black

01:04:04.050 --> 01:04:06.590
people because they were worth too much as enslaved people.

01:04:07.270 --> 01:04:09.170
And so the history lived.

01:04:10.010 --> 01:04:13.970
And we have Black History Month, not because the history died,

01:04:14.430 --> 01:04:19.990
because the history was being suppressed in American education.

01:04:20.170 --> 01:04:25.990
Therefore, Carter G. Woodson, black historian I would say the father of black

01:04:25.990 --> 01:04:29.110
history to give him his respect,

01:04:29.910 --> 01:04:37.950
saw a problem in not our traditions but in American institutions who suppress marginalized,

01:04:38.290 --> 01:04:44.070
demonize that history it was in that space that black history has done its work,

01:04:44.110 --> 01:04:48.730
not because the history had been forgotten and lost by black people no, no, no, no, no.

01:04:49.837 --> 01:04:56.997
No, no, no. And so it's not a miracle to me, right, that we we we have a deep

01:04:56.997 --> 01:05:02.917
pride and a deep historical connection to that history because that is the black experience.

01:05:02.917 --> 01:05:06.677
Right however yes when

01:05:06.677 --> 01:05:10.917
we when it comes to these american institutions we

01:05:10.917 --> 01:05:16.877
need a black history month right we are not represented well right in educational

01:05:16.877 --> 01:05:23.757
settings especially with the erasure that's happening today and so for me i

01:05:23.757 --> 01:05:27.177
understand our history as a living history it lives in our practices,

01:05:27.517 --> 01:05:29.817
in our food ways, in our phraseology,

01:05:30.317 --> 01:05:32.697
right, in Black vernacular, right?

01:05:33.237 --> 01:05:37.677
And that is as vibrant as ever, right?

01:05:37.817 --> 01:05:42.737
And if you ever want to understand our history, there's so many portals to the past, right?

01:05:42.857 --> 01:05:47.917
Hip-hop is such a portal to our past, right?

01:05:47.917 --> 01:05:52.497
If you just understand the hip-hop as

01:05:52.497 --> 01:05:55.697
the art form and as a container for our history

01:05:55.697 --> 01:06:04.857
it'll never be lost and so for me for for me the the question isn't how we were

01:06:04.857 --> 01:06:11.257
how were we able to preserve it the question really is is how has the history

01:06:11.257 --> 01:06:13.477
been suppressed so well yeah.

01:06:15.974 --> 01:06:23.134
In these American institutions. How did that project become so successful when

01:06:23.134 --> 01:06:25.074
you have, you know, again,

01:06:26.034 --> 01:06:32.054
the legacy of contributions and significance that Black people have made to

01:06:32.054 --> 01:06:35.714
the, you know, if we're just thinking about the American past and not world

01:06:35.714 --> 01:06:39.894
history, it's impossible to talk about it.

01:06:39.954 --> 01:06:46.194
And so we're really doing a lot of damage, In other words, by conveniently excluding

01:06:46.194 --> 01:06:48.574
black people, marginalizing them from the history.

01:06:49.354 --> 01:06:56.854
That's a societal, systemic issue in society, but not one that begins or ends

01:06:56.854 --> 01:07:02.614
with black people and how black people have remained connected,

01:07:02.814 --> 01:07:10.254
deeply connected to their identity and through that identity, their history. Yeah.

01:07:11.254 --> 01:07:16.754
So I think you kind of led into this question. Every year, some white people

01:07:16.754 --> 01:07:20.694
go into public square and complain about the celebration of Black history.

01:07:21.014 --> 01:07:25.214
How do you answer the question, why a Black History Month?

01:07:26.108 --> 01:07:31.328
Why a Black History Month? Why are we focusing on Black history?

01:07:31.468 --> 01:07:34.288
Why does Black people deserve a month?

01:07:34.748 --> 01:07:37.628
I would agree with them. We need a year.

01:07:38.988 --> 01:07:44.168
Let's not be mad about a month. Let's get mad about a year devoted to Black

01:07:44.168 --> 01:07:47.048
people. That's Annie Young.

01:07:47.508 --> 01:07:54.108
But seriously, I think when people are angry,

01:07:54.248 --> 01:08:03.348
especially white people are angry about our focus on Black History Month or why those stories,

01:08:03.568 --> 01:08:11.668
those narratives are emphasized, I think it's from often from a place of indifference.

01:08:11.668 --> 01:08:14.728
Right it's from a place of

01:08:14.728 --> 01:08:21.308
not only indifference but indifference rooted in ignorance and sometimes it's

01:08:21.308 --> 01:08:28.908
not indifference rooted in ignorance it is true hostility rooted in a real troubled

01:08:28.908 --> 01:08:34.048
relationship with the black past a relationship that they may feel guilty about a relationship

01:08:34.098 --> 01:08:36.918
that they may feel uneasy about, right?

01:08:37.238 --> 01:08:42.218
But there is a reason for that disavowal.

01:08:42.418 --> 01:08:47.298
It's not just disavowal because it's rooted to an experience.

01:08:47.478 --> 01:08:54.398
It's rooted to a relationship. And one has to confront that relationship, right?

01:08:54.518 --> 01:08:59.958
I believe if you want to get to a place where you can appreciate,

01:08:59.958 --> 01:09:08.598
where you can acknowledge, where you can see, right, the impact and think about it compassionately.

01:09:09.098 --> 01:09:14.978
And so that is the kind of identity work that I do or I try to do.

01:09:15.917 --> 01:09:20.117
But I know those ideas, those feelings are rooted in a kind of experience.

01:09:20.597 --> 01:09:27.277
And if you grow up in America and you experience American education that that

01:09:27.277 --> 01:09:34.077
marginalizes for the most part the black experience in how it educates, you know,

01:09:34.257 --> 01:09:38.777
students about American history, you can kind of understand the indifference.

01:09:38.917 --> 01:09:43.357
You can kind of understand the hostility because they've never been told that

01:09:43.357 --> 01:09:47.397
this is important. These people matter. Their histories matter.

01:09:48.057 --> 01:09:54.817
And so when you've never been told that, but then you're bombarded with it, there is resistance.

01:09:55.097 --> 01:09:57.397
There is reluctance. There is indifference.

01:09:57.777 --> 01:10:03.057
My role as educator, whether you're Black, you're white, you're Indigenous,

01:10:03.397 --> 01:10:09.437
or otherwise, is to overcome that indifference, right, through education,

01:10:09.737 --> 01:10:12.397
through knowledge, and most importantly.

01:10:13.317 --> 01:10:18.817
Understanding why we care about that knowledge and that history of and that

01:10:18.817 --> 01:10:20.457
experience of Black people.

01:10:20.837 --> 01:10:25.257
Understanding why we care is what is most transformative about education,

01:10:25.257 --> 01:10:28.037
not the simple transmittal of knowledge,

01:10:28.177 --> 01:10:31.137
the simple transmittal of knowledge to reading and discourse,

01:10:31.137 --> 01:10:38.057
but it's in us understanding why we care that transforms indifference to empowerment,

01:10:38.757 --> 01:10:42.117
indifference to compassionate and so

01:10:42.117 --> 01:10:48.177
for me it's it's ultimately the relationship that white people have to not only

01:10:48.177 --> 01:10:54.657
the black past but to the american past and so for me again i teach from this

01:10:54.657 --> 01:11:00.417
place that it's not good enough to teach people about black people we have to teach them.

01:11:01.478 --> 01:11:06.138
That they have always already have a relationship to the Black past.

01:11:06.278 --> 01:11:10.958
The only question is whether you care about it or not, and how do you care about it?

01:11:12.018 --> 01:11:18.118
And so those are the profound questions that not just white people have to answer,

01:11:18.298 --> 01:11:21.598
Black people, everybody has to answer that question.

01:11:21.958 --> 01:11:26.698
If they're going to truly understand what I believe I understand,

01:11:26.698 --> 01:11:31.498
is that our histories are intertwined, interconnected,

01:11:32.058 --> 01:11:37.798
not separate, not parochial, not nationalistic, right?

01:11:38.458 --> 01:11:44.798
Just like our humanity is intertwined and interdependent, our histories are too.

01:11:45.018 --> 01:11:52.158
And the recognition of that and activating that, operationalizing that and how we talk about our past,

01:11:52.438 --> 01:11:55.238
how we treat each other because we understand the past in

01:11:55.238 --> 01:11:59.338
that way is what for me again healing

01:11:59.338 --> 01:12:02.758
history is all about right us developing

01:12:02.758 --> 01:12:08.838
a compassionate relationship to our many paths but certainly the black path

01:12:08.838 --> 01:12:14.518
does that make sense dear brother yes sir henry lewis gates said the thing about

01:12:14.518 --> 01:12:18.858
black history is that the truth is so much more complex than anything you can

01:12:18.858 --> 01:12:21.178
make up do you agree with that statement.

01:12:22.201 --> 01:12:25.761
Whoo! I love Henry Louis Gates.

01:12:25.901 --> 01:12:33.081
I know he's not beloved by all, but he does say some really profound and powerful things.

01:12:33.861 --> 01:12:44.661
I do think, I do agree that the Black experience gives us more mystery than it does revelations.

01:12:44.661 --> 01:12:52.761
I say that not just because Black history and the history of Africa has been

01:12:52.761 --> 01:12:54.881
marginalized in Western accounts.

01:12:54.921 --> 01:13:00.441
I say that because of the vastness of Black history.

01:13:00.781 --> 01:13:06.401
Black history is vast. It encompasses the African past.

01:13:06.401 --> 01:13:13.301
And when we think about the Black past and the African past together,

01:13:13.301 --> 01:13:18.361
that represents not just the last 500 years of human history,

01:13:18.361 --> 01:13:23.421
that represents 7 million years of human history.

01:13:23.421 --> 01:13:31.701
When I think about the Black past, I think about it as 7 million years of continuous history.

01:13:33.021 --> 01:13:38.001
And the vast majority of that 7 million years, we know very little about.

01:13:38.841 --> 01:13:48.361
And so as much as Africa reveals about who we are, we are all out of Africa.

01:13:48.461 --> 01:13:55.301
There are so many questions and mysteries that we have not unraveled.

01:13:56.329 --> 01:14:00.749
Because of the vastness of that history and the fragmentary nature of how we

01:14:00.749 --> 01:14:05.149
know that history through fossil evidence, through genetic evidence,

01:14:05.349 --> 01:14:08.609
and in the last 10,000 years,

01:14:09.029 --> 01:14:13.809
invention of writing, right, through textual sources, but fragmentary,

01:14:14.509 --> 01:14:19.829
right, the vastness of the African past has revealed a lot, right,

01:14:20.049 --> 01:14:22.629
but it's still shrouded in deep mystery.

01:14:23.289 --> 01:14:29.049
And so I think of it as a universe that we constantly explore,

01:14:29.309 --> 01:14:31.849
but we will never, ever know.

01:14:32.109 --> 01:14:39.309
Just like space is the vastness of space, we will continuously explore,

01:14:39.529 --> 01:14:43.629
but we will only be able to see the visible universe and understand the visible

01:14:43.629 --> 01:14:46.609
universe, not the universe in all its entirety,

01:14:46.949 --> 01:14:50.089
not in all of its glory. It's simply too big.

01:14:51.269 --> 01:14:55.769
And so I feel the same way about African history and so when Henry Louis Gates

01:14:55.769 --> 01:15:04.309
would say that that's where my mind and body go and that for me gives Africa its deepest reverence,

01:15:04.949 --> 01:15:12.949
and sacred nature it is so vast we can never know it all but what we do know about it and what I

01:15:12.969 --> 01:15:21.269
And what I seize upon is Africa as motherland of humanity and as motherland

01:15:21.269 --> 01:15:23.369
of humanity, no matter if you are black,

01:15:23.569 --> 01:15:29.329
you're white or otherwise, you have a deep and profound relationship to Africa.

01:15:30.249 --> 01:15:33.269
Now, whether you care about that relationship is something different,

01:15:33.449 --> 01:15:39.249
but you always already have a relationship with Africa and the African past.

01:15:39.889 --> 01:15:46.929
Seven million years of human history. Africa represents the vast majority of

01:15:46.929 --> 01:15:51.069
human history, most of which happened on the continent.

01:15:51.829 --> 01:15:56.629
Only in the last 100 to 50,000 years have humans dispersed from Africa and.

01:15:57.970 --> 01:16:03.810
And the modern world, if we can say, after the dispersal has only been in the

01:16:03.810 --> 01:16:07.930
last 100,000 years, 7 million years was on the continent.

01:16:08.890 --> 01:16:14.970
And so when we think about Africa in that way, if we are indifferent to it,

01:16:15.110 --> 01:16:16.530
we are indifferent to ourselves.

01:16:17.330 --> 01:16:23.690
If we are hostile to it, we're hostile to ourselves because we are not recognizing

01:16:23.690 --> 01:16:32.130
how deeply connected we are to Africa as not just the black people's motherland, all of us.

01:16:32.130 --> 01:16:38.130
It's our motherland right that's a profound idea that is not found in American

01:16:38.130 --> 01:16:42.150
education but what if it was hmm,

01:16:43.096 --> 01:16:48.616
Speaking about American education, the word black was banned from a black history

01:16:48.616 --> 01:16:51.536
flyer at an HBCU. Your thoughts?

01:16:53.196 --> 01:16:58.816
I don't like it. I'm proud to be black with a capital B.

01:16:59.416 --> 01:17:04.376
And I'm never not going to be proud of being black with a capital B,

01:17:04.576 --> 01:17:09.756
even with all the complexities of how I think about my identity and its connection

01:17:09.756 --> 01:17:12.556
to other people, other communities.

01:17:13.656 --> 01:17:17.176
Blackness beyond history is

01:17:17.176 --> 01:17:20.496
a lived experience and that

01:17:20.496 --> 01:17:23.416
lived experience has been i'm we

01:17:23.416 --> 01:17:28.996
are building upon the shoulders of our ancestors they have passed down that

01:17:28.996 --> 01:17:35.296
culture to us as an inheritance ubuntu is a part of our inheritance passed down

01:17:35.296 --> 01:17:42.196
orally for generations for centuries that has structured the Black experience.

01:17:42.496 --> 01:17:47.596
When we talk about lift every voice and sing, that's Ubuntu.

01:17:49.556 --> 01:17:54.756
When we say lifting as we climb, that's Ubuntu.

01:17:56.716 --> 01:18:04.296
And so that is an experience, a Black experience that I will never,

01:18:04.296 --> 01:18:10.056
ever turn against And I don't and I'm never going to be OK with people turning against,

01:18:10.256 --> 01:18:12.216
especially black institutions,

01:18:12.676 --> 01:18:19.576
right, that have over their history preserved black history and black culture,

01:18:20.316 --> 01:18:24.396
projected black history and black culture, uplifted black people.

01:18:24.556 --> 01:18:25.856
I can I'm never going to accept.

01:18:26.883 --> 01:18:34.743
Them banning black capital b no why how who for what reason,

01:18:36.123 --> 01:18:38.743
for what reason you're going

01:18:38.743 --> 01:18:44.623
to deny that incest of that cultural inheritance for what for donald trump you're

01:18:44.623 --> 01:18:49.943
crazy well speaking about donald trump what signal does it send when the current

01:18:49.943 --> 01:18:57.283
administration makes a concerted effort to remove historical artifacts pertaining to African-Americans?

01:18:58.363 --> 01:19:01.283
We have to resist. We have to organize and resist.

01:19:01.883 --> 01:19:07.223
Our history will not be removed by removing artifacts. Let's be clear about

01:19:07.223 --> 01:19:09.383
that. Our history ain't going nowhere.

01:19:10.883 --> 01:19:16.143
But in American institutions, you can try to erase it. But our history ain't

01:19:16.143 --> 01:19:17.763
going nowhere as long as we here.

01:19:18.043 --> 01:19:23.403
Our history is not just preserved in museums and libraries and in books.

01:19:23.403 --> 01:19:27.683
It is a part of us and so

01:19:27.683 --> 01:19:30.643
you have to get rid of black people to get rid of black history because

01:19:30.643 --> 01:19:33.563
we are got we are rooted in it we are

01:19:33.563 --> 01:19:36.523
guided by it and we create it

01:19:36.523 --> 01:19:39.723
through cultural practices and traditions

01:19:39.723 --> 01:19:42.583
it ain't going nowhere i'm not worried about

01:19:42.583 --> 01:19:45.603
it like that but what i am worried about

01:19:45.603 --> 01:19:48.423
is the damage that removing it from the

01:19:48.423 --> 01:19:51.823
smithsonian does right to

01:19:51.823 --> 01:19:55.923
to education to students right

01:19:55.923 --> 01:20:01.043
the is the kind of historical amnesia it will create and the kind of harm that

01:20:01.043 --> 01:20:04.783
it will do in terms of the hostilities and indifference that i talked about

01:20:04.783 --> 01:20:09.503
i'm worried about it in that way but not in a way that our history is going

01:20:09.503 --> 01:20:14.623
to some kind of some kind of way shrink away and it loses its vitality because

01:20:14.623 --> 01:20:15.623
it ain't in the Smithsonian.

01:20:16.103 --> 01:20:19.423
It serves a real important role with it being there,

01:20:20.168 --> 01:20:24.308
But it's not the end all be all. It's not keeping me up at night because I know

01:20:24.308 --> 01:20:27.208
there are black institutions like HBCU.

01:20:27.328 --> 01:20:31.048
There are black cultural museums where this history will continue to live.

01:20:31.968 --> 01:20:36.488
But more importantly, it's going to live in us. It's going to live in our traditions

01:20:36.488 --> 01:20:40.288
and it's going to live and it's going to outlive this country.

01:20:40.528 --> 01:20:45.308
It's going to outlive these efforts to ban it, to minimize it,

01:20:45.628 --> 01:20:54.548
etc. And so our history is too vast, like I said, it's too vast to suppress it.

01:20:54.808 --> 01:21:01.888
You can try to ban it, but a ban cannot erase 7 million years of history.

01:21:02.228 --> 01:21:05.048
It just can't. and so when

01:21:05.048 --> 01:21:08.128
you come from that place yeah it's it's

01:21:08.128 --> 01:21:10.888
alarming but it ain't no way in

01:21:10.888 --> 01:21:14.488
the world you can erase the black experience too

01:21:14.488 --> 01:21:17.388
central you can't even talk about world history

01:21:17.388 --> 01:21:20.148
without black people you can't even

01:21:20.148 --> 01:21:23.588
my grandmother would say you can't even fix your mouth to talk

01:21:23.588 --> 01:21:26.748
about she said you can't

01:21:26.748 --> 01:21:29.688
fix your mouth to talk about me

01:21:29.688 --> 01:21:32.908
or to talk about my people like that because

01:21:32.908 --> 01:21:36.208
it ain't true and so that's the

01:21:36.208 --> 01:21:39.588
deep deep deep faith that i

01:21:39.588 --> 01:21:46.988
have in our culture and our traditions and they are under threat but they are

01:21:46.988 --> 01:21:53.308
not going anywhere so what more can we do as a community to preserve our heritage

01:21:53.308 --> 01:21:57.788
build community build community community.

01:21:58.797 --> 01:22:03.637
We have the most amazing historical legacy.

01:22:04.637 --> 01:22:10.597
We have the most vast cultural inheritance, African history.

01:22:10.877 --> 01:22:17.117
And when I say vast, I truly mean in the most profound way, human beings learned

01:22:17.117 --> 01:22:21.157
how to be human on the continent of Africa.

01:22:21.157 --> 01:22:24.217
We need to

01:22:24.217 --> 01:22:33.817
recognize that deep heritage and build community around it that goes for black

01:22:33.817 --> 01:22:41.757
people and all other people right i truly believe this and this is just me going

01:22:41.757 --> 01:22:43.677
as deep as i can on this question.

01:22:44.257 --> 01:22:56.117
I truly believe if skin color differences have been the basis of modern identities,

01:22:56.117 --> 01:22:59.677
you're a white person, you're a black person, you're a brown,

01:22:59.897 --> 01:23:05.837
you know, if skin color difference has been the basis of modern identities,

01:23:06.477 --> 01:23:14.837
structured society, and its institutions, and we've seen how divisive, how oppressive,

01:23:15.537 --> 01:23:18.397
and how much harm that has done.

01:23:19.517 --> 01:23:31.217
If we can embrace our shared African origin and truly care about that and let that idea transform us,

01:23:32.197 --> 01:23:36.357
we can create a new, liberating, Thank you.

01:23:37.219 --> 01:23:43.339
Identity, rooted in what we share, not what makes us different.

01:23:43.959 --> 01:23:49.119
But in order for that to happen, we have to free our African mind.

01:23:49.919 --> 01:23:57.079
And until we free our African mind, as Black people and all other people,

01:23:57.379 --> 01:24:04.899
I think we're stuck in these identities that pit us against each other versus bring us together.

01:24:05.579 --> 01:24:13.359
My sincere hope and where I teach from, where I'm at and how I organize is from that place.

01:24:13.499 --> 01:24:16.879
It's from that deep, the deepest and stressful place I think I can go.

01:24:17.059 --> 01:24:20.319
I believe that idea is not just a good idea.

01:24:20.479 --> 01:24:29.099
I believe it's a healing idea. It can heal us in recognizing common humanity

01:24:29.099 --> 01:24:35.279
and just how intimately interconnected we are, our shared African origin.

01:24:35.839 --> 01:24:38.939
For me, that's a healing history.

01:24:39.799 --> 01:24:45.799
And what needs to happen is we need to dialogue about that endlessly.

01:24:46.319 --> 01:24:49.439
We need to center it so much that we dialogue about

01:24:49.439 --> 01:24:52.479
it endlessly and as a society

01:24:52.479 --> 01:24:55.659
come to an understanding about why we care

01:24:55.659 --> 01:24:58.679
about that and how because

01:24:58.679 --> 01:25:02.119
we care about that that's transformative for how we're going to live together

01:25:02.119 --> 01:25:09.859
see it's all about that yeah all right last last question yes sir and i've been

01:25:09.859 --> 01:25:17.419
asking all my guests this question this year finish this sentence i have hope because Because...

01:25:18.359 --> 01:25:19.719
I'm a humanist.

01:25:23.299 --> 01:25:27.039
Hey, I have hope in humanity.

01:25:27.319 --> 01:25:31.399
I don't just study humanity. I actually love people.

01:25:32.199 --> 01:25:38.079
I truly embrace the idea that a human is a human through other people.

01:25:38.279 --> 01:25:42.719
Right. I can't be human all by myself. I can't even have joy all by myself because

01:25:42.719 --> 01:25:49.859
I want to share with somebody. And so I have the deepest faith in humanity.

01:25:50.939 --> 01:25:58.119
And not in humanity getting it right, but I have the deepest faith in humanity

01:25:58.119 --> 01:26:03.379
because of how we are human because of each other.

01:26:03.379 --> 01:26:10.119
We have survived and thrived, not because of survival of the fittest,

01:26:10.339 --> 01:26:12.579
but it's been the survival of the friendliest.

01:26:12.959 --> 01:26:15.339
We have actually helped each other.

01:26:15.799 --> 01:26:20.039
Human beings couldn't have survived the rigors of the African continent,

01:26:20.039 --> 01:26:25.519
the great Asians in weather, the extreme weather, the hot seasons,

01:26:25.679 --> 01:26:28.699
the dry seasons, without cooperation.

01:26:28.699 --> 01:26:37.999
To be human is to profoundly depend on others and because you depend on others you cooperate and,

01:26:38.515 --> 01:26:42.795
And so that is what roots my humanism.

01:26:42.955 --> 01:26:48.675
Why I have a deep love for humanity because I know at our at our core,

01:26:48.675 --> 01:26:52.615
we are human because we cooperated with each other and we survived.

01:26:52.615 --> 01:26:55.655
And we were able to because we survived we

01:26:55.655 --> 01:27:03.235
were able to thrive when we figured out how to work together that didn't mean

01:27:03.235 --> 01:27:07.035
that we worked all the way together there's slavery there's oppression there's

01:27:07.035 --> 01:27:13.375
all kinds of things but that's not why we survived that's how we began to oppress.

01:27:14.055 --> 01:27:19.955
And so when we think about the long durée of of of of world history african

01:27:19.955 --> 01:27:23.695
history we survived because we cooperated with each other.

01:27:24.355 --> 01:27:35.135
And so at my core, I believe that people cooperate versus structure or prefer

01:27:35.135 --> 01:27:37.215
to be in conflict with people.

01:27:38.115 --> 01:27:44.295
And because of that, I love people on their worst day and I love people on their

01:27:44.295 --> 01:27:51.335
best day. And so my profound hope is in people, not in technology.

01:27:51.355 --> 01:27:54.655
Some people think technology is the driving force of history.

01:27:54.775 --> 01:27:59.815
I believe compassion is the driving force of history, not technology.

01:28:00.895 --> 01:28:05.655
And so these are fundamentally humanness values, right?

01:28:06.475 --> 01:28:12.695
Believing in people, right? Loving people, believing in us on our worst day.

01:28:13.175 --> 01:28:16.815
Loving people when we ascend Mount Kimlemanjaro.

01:28:17.235 --> 01:28:24.355
That's great. But even when we engage in horrific acts,

01:28:24.935 --> 01:28:30.315
trying to find compassion so that we can transform that relationship,

01:28:30.895 --> 01:28:33.415
is what, for me, it is all about.

01:28:34.015 --> 01:28:39.275
And so I'm hopeful in humans. That's why I'm a Black humanist.

01:28:39.515 --> 01:28:45.735
And I believe, and Ubuntu, to go back to Ubuntu, is for me the greatest expression

01:28:45.735 --> 01:28:49.535
of humanism, that tradition, that thought tradition.

01:28:50.135 --> 01:28:53.915
Ubuntu is the root of it, but it's also the greatest expression of it.

01:28:54.235 --> 01:28:57.575
And so that's, for me, why I keep that centered.

01:28:57.855 --> 01:29:03.955
It's not just a talking point. It's truly how to live life in a line with our

01:29:03.955 --> 01:29:07.275
ancestral heritage Does that make sense?

01:29:07.475 --> 01:29:11.555
Yes, sir. That makes a whole lot of sense. Dr. Karlos K. Hill, How can people

01:29:11.555 --> 01:29:14.995
reach out to you if they want to want to get some more of this wisdom?

01:29:16.136 --> 01:29:20.176
Dear brother Erik, you know, it's easy to find me. You just got to email me

01:29:20.176 --> 01:29:26.856
at Karlos. You can actually go to my website, karloskhill.com.

01:29:27.056 --> 01:29:33.256
And from there, you can very easily send me an email and or connect with American

01:29:33.256 --> 01:29:41.796
Program Bureau who represents me and organizes lectures and workshops that I do.

01:29:41.796 --> 01:29:46.216
I mean, so either my website or American Program Bureau, go on their website.

01:29:46.216 --> 01:29:52.336
You can find me there or just email me at carlos.hill at ou.edu.

01:29:52.816 --> 01:29:57.316
I answer all emails. So if you email me, I will respond.

01:29:57.556 --> 01:30:02.996
It may take a month, but I will get back to you. But no, I'm easy to find.

01:30:03.056 --> 01:30:06.296
And I'm a community engaged black studies historian.

01:30:06.636 --> 01:30:12.256
Right. So it's not an it's not a inconvenience for me. It's actually the work for me.

01:30:12.636 --> 01:30:17.456
And so engaging with people that that don't encounter me in the classroom,

01:30:17.676 --> 01:30:22.596
engaging them wherever they are is what for me, community engaged really means.

01:30:22.596 --> 01:30:30.196
Well, Brother Karlos, you know, considering the significance of this year being

01:30:30.196 --> 01:30:35.156
a hundredth year of commemorating and celebrating Black history,

01:30:35.416 --> 01:30:42.836
I am so glad I was able to lock you in and to have you come and talk about this.

01:30:43.854 --> 01:30:48.234
You know, I don't think I could have found a better person or a more articulate

01:30:48.234 --> 01:30:56.294
person to break down the significance of this month, what it means to us and

01:30:56.294 --> 01:30:58.494
what it's meant to us for this last century.

01:30:58.734 --> 01:31:03.774
So thank you so much, man. And I apologize for all the technical stuff.

01:31:04.654 --> 01:31:07.074
It was me. It was me still, brother.

01:31:08.934 --> 01:31:13.834
But I'm glad we got through it, man. So thank you so much. I appreciate you.

01:31:13.974 --> 01:31:17.374
Much, much success on the on the current academic year, too.

01:31:18.274 --> 01:31:23.334
Absolutely. Thank you so much. And I think you and your questions bring out

01:31:23.334 --> 01:31:26.174
the best of me. They are profound questions.

01:31:26.514 --> 01:31:30.494
You have a profound voice and sharing with the community.

01:31:30.714 --> 01:31:36.554
So every time you you invite me, I get excited and I want to share as deeply

01:31:36.554 --> 01:31:41.914
and as compellingly as I can, because I know you have an audience of people

01:31:41.914 --> 01:31:44.374
who really value your perspective.

01:31:44.694 --> 01:31:50.234
So, again, thank you. And I look forward, dear brother, for us to come back together.

01:31:50.414 --> 01:31:53.654
Hopefully it's not, you know, a year from now. Maybe it's, you know,

01:31:53.714 --> 01:31:56.054
in a few months we can chat again.

01:31:56.254 --> 01:31:59.654
But maybe around Juneteenth. Let's do a Juneteenth talk.

01:32:00.014 --> 01:32:01.854
Let's talk during Juneteenth time.

01:32:02.494 --> 01:32:06.274
All right. All right. We'll, I'm going to get you in. I'm going to get you in.

01:32:06.334 --> 01:32:09.134
I got some folks lined up, but I'm going to get you in there.

01:32:09.234 --> 01:32:17.154
All right all right we'll make it a gala okay hey i appreciate you brother thank

01:32:17.154 --> 01:32:20.974
you so much for having me all right guys we're gonna catch y'all on the other side.

01:32:32.666 --> 01:32:37.026
All right. And we are back. So let me thank Dr. Decoteau Irby,

01:32:37.306 --> 01:32:40.286
Dr. Ann Ishimaru, and Dr.

01:32:40.846 --> 01:32:43.366
Karlos K. Hill for coming on the program.

01:32:43.986 --> 01:32:48.186
It's pretty cool to have all those smart people be guests on the podcast.

01:32:49.006 --> 01:32:55.666
And I greatly appreciate all the work that they are doing to educate our young

01:32:55.666 --> 01:32:58.546
folks, right, our future leaders.

01:32:58.806 --> 01:33:04.526
For Dr. Irby and Dr. Ishimaru, please get their book, Doing the Work of Equity

01:33:04.526 --> 01:33:06.506
Leadership for Justice and Systems.

01:33:07.306 --> 01:33:14.846
This was nearly a decade in the making and it's really, really a positive book

01:33:14.846 --> 01:33:19.246
in the sense that even though it highlights some struggles and challenges.

01:33:20.890 --> 01:33:26.230
It's important to know that there are people that have dedicated their lives

01:33:26.230 --> 01:33:30.170
to make sure that our students are in safe spaces,

01:33:30.170 --> 01:33:36.850
that they are comfortable in their learning environments.

01:33:37.610 --> 01:33:44.890
And I only expect great things to come from the research that Dr.

01:33:44.970 --> 01:33:50.010
Irby and Dr. Ishimaru have put in. And for Dr.

01:33:50.190 --> 01:33:53.590
Karlos Hill, this is his second time on the podcast.

01:33:53.810 --> 01:34:02.630
And like I told him, his thoughtfulness and his enthusiasm and his passion, I think,

01:34:02.790 --> 01:34:09.310
really encapsulates why it's important for us to celebrate Black History Month.

01:34:09.310 --> 01:34:14.550
And especially since we have been celebrating it now for a hundred years in this country.

01:34:15.730 --> 01:34:23.290
I just really, really am grateful that he was able to carve out some time to make this happen.

01:34:23.890 --> 01:34:31.110
Again, I apologize for the technical difficulties that we had to put this together.

01:34:31.370 --> 01:34:33.850
You know, them gremlins be out there.

01:34:34.950 --> 01:34:39.810
And especially, I was just thinking, Oh, yeah, they trying to,

01:34:39.970 --> 01:34:46.290
they doing their best, you know, and it, yeah, technology's not supposed to be neutral and all that.

01:34:46.450 --> 01:34:50.650
But sometimes I just feel there's some interviews that's harder to record than others.

01:34:51.070 --> 01:34:57.490
But we pushed through it and hopefully that you were able to get the gist of

01:34:57.490 --> 01:35:04.270
what we talked about in the interview because it was very, very profound what Dr.

01:35:04.310 --> 01:35:13.910
Hill said. But especially in this contrarian era that we are in, right?

01:35:14.350 --> 01:35:17.630
Because, you know, some people say counterculture and all that stuff,

01:35:17.670 --> 01:35:19.890
but this is just being contrarian.

01:35:20.010 --> 01:35:22.870
And there are some people, there are some black people.

01:35:23.671 --> 01:35:29.931
Who, when I watch what they post and their political commentary.

01:35:30.931 --> 01:35:36.851
That's the first word that comes to my mind. They're just not happy with anything.

01:35:37.811 --> 01:35:46.491
Anything, you know, it's one thing to be upset about the politics that are out there,

01:35:47.111 --> 01:35:51.691
but it's a whole other thing to just be upset about everything,

01:35:51.691 --> 01:35:54.891
thing, even the progressive stuff, even the good things.

01:35:55.071 --> 01:35:57.431
It's just always finding fault.

01:35:57.791 --> 01:36:05.351
There's this one sister, I mean, my God, you know, I don't even know if she

01:36:05.351 --> 01:36:08.171
would support Jesus if he can.

01:36:08.471 --> 01:36:11.031
I mean, that's how contrarian she is.

01:36:12.131 --> 01:36:17.411
I follow her just to see to what level she can go, right,

01:36:17.951 --> 01:36:23.351
you know but you know but just like a broken clock you know at least twice a

01:36:23.351 --> 01:36:27.771
day it's gonna give you the correct time so you know,

01:36:29.253 --> 01:36:32.553
And you try to support people, especially your own people.

01:36:33.013 --> 01:36:39.813
But I just, you know, some days I just be like, really? That's what you got out of all of that?

01:36:40.073 --> 01:36:48.073
Or are you that narrow-minded, right, that you can't just accept a win?

01:36:49.593 --> 01:36:56.793
You know? And we've had to navigate that as black people throughout, right?

01:36:56.793 --> 01:36:59.573
You know she's not

01:36:59.573 --> 01:37:02.453
what people would describe as a sellout she's

01:37:02.453 --> 01:37:07.773
not a sellout by any means she's she's pro-black but it just seemed like she

01:37:07.773 --> 01:37:14.973
ain't never gonna be happy or maybe she is happy just being contrary I don't

01:37:14.973 --> 01:37:19.713
know you know I don't understand the mindset of those folks,

01:37:20.633 --> 01:37:22.093
And, you know,

01:37:22.593 --> 01:37:25.693
maybe I'm not black enough to understand that.

01:37:25.853 --> 01:37:29.193
I don't know. But I don't really like contrarian people anyway,

01:37:29.193 --> 01:37:33.813
because they always cause problems.

01:37:35.644 --> 01:37:42.384
And, you know, we are quickly, you know, people talk about being an authoritarian

01:37:42.384 --> 01:37:47.544
society and, you know, the end of democracy and all that.

01:37:47.724 --> 01:37:57.884
But what leads to that is being contrary, just being angry and dissident about everything.

01:37:58.464 --> 01:38:05.124
You know, they accuse black folks of that. But one of the good things about

01:38:05.124 --> 01:38:13.184
Black History Month is that it reminds the nation that we are far from contrary as a people.

01:38:14.464 --> 01:38:24.904
We are the conscience of America. We are the epitome of what the American ideal is, right?

01:38:25.624 --> 01:38:31.964
For a group of people to be enslaved, to have one of their descendants become

01:38:31.964 --> 01:38:34.584
president of the United States, right?

01:38:35.084 --> 01:38:41.124
And the first lady, you know? I think it's just, you know, it's amazing.

01:38:41.564 --> 01:38:46.124
You know, people say, well, you know, his folks are mixed. Whatever, man.

01:38:47.404 --> 01:38:53.764
You know what I'm saying? It's like to see one of us in the White House. That was a major moment.

01:38:54.404 --> 01:39:00.204
You can deny it if you want to. You can Monday morning quarterback about how effective it was.

01:39:00.704 --> 01:39:02.644
But my child got to see that.

01:39:03.484 --> 01:39:07.684
And, you know, and I was in the middle of all that. I was running for office

01:39:07.684 --> 01:39:09.964
myself during that time.

01:39:11.084 --> 01:39:16.144
So, yeah, there's nothing you can say to dissuade me about the positive impact

01:39:16.144 --> 01:39:22.144
of that and how it shows how persistent,

01:39:22.624 --> 01:39:27.964
despite the contrary attitude of America,

01:39:28.464 --> 01:39:32.744
that we have succeeded, right?

01:39:33.204 --> 01:39:39.784
But this contrarianism leads to authoritarianism.

01:39:41.028 --> 01:39:49.288
And it was in total display over the last week, you know, with the Super Bowl.

01:39:50.468 --> 01:39:58.748
And you had this guy come on who is literally the most popular musical artist

01:39:58.748 --> 01:40:00.528
in the world right this minute.

01:40:01.788 --> 01:40:04.628
Agree to do the halftime show at the Super Bowl.

01:40:04.988 --> 01:40:10.508
And all these contrarians kept talking about, well, he is not in English and,

01:40:11.168 --> 01:40:13.248
oh, it's not American and blah, blah.

01:40:13.508 --> 01:40:20.608
You know, this dude is more American than you are because he believes in hope. He believes in love.

01:40:21.388 --> 01:40:24.288
And Puerto Rico is a part of the United States.

01:40:24.768 --> 01:40:31.408
I don't know if they want to be, you know, if you understand the history.

01:40:32.348 --> 01:40:35.808
You know, we took them over, I guess, during the Spanish-American War,

01:40:36.048 --> 01:40:38.468
you know, as far as colonizing them.

01:40:38.668 --> 01:40:44.228
And, you know, there's a sector of them that have been pushing for independence,

01:40:44.228 --> 01:40:46.868
even violently, right? I grew up in Chicago.

01:40:46.928 --> 01:40:53.828
So if you understand Chicago history, you understand how the quest for Puerto

01:40:53.828 --> 01:40:56.888
Rican independence impacted our city, right?

01:40:57.608 --> 01:41:00.788
So, you know, it was a beautiful show

01:41:00.788 --> 01:41:05.048
and even if you're not fluent in spanish you

01:41:05.048 --> 01:41:08.128
got the gist of it the visual and

01:41:08.128 --> 01:41:11.388
you know he was very sensitive about that the only thing i was disappointed about

01:41:11.388 --> 01:41:14.648
the show was that i saw

01:41:14.648 --> 01:41:18.348
that people were the grass and

01:41:18.348 --> 01:41:22.388
i was just saying oh if the grass dances this would be the greatest show ever

01:41:22.388 --> 01:41:27.368
but the grass didn't dance but there was some symbolism behind that as far as

01:41:27.368 --> 01:41:38.128
how the natives or the inhabitants of Puerto Rico would hide from their oppressors in that grass.

01:41:38.548 --> 01:41:42.068
So it was like, okay, I get it, right?

01:41:43.180 --> 01:41:47.360
And, you know, there's that symbolism about grassroots, right?

01:41:48.720 --> 01:41:53.080
So, but the contrarians wanted to do their own Super Bowl show.

01:41:53.480 --> 01:42:00.320
And it was terrible from all aspects, from the talent that they put together

01:42:00.320 --> 01:42:04.940
to just, it just wasn't even a comparison.

01:42:04.940 --> 01:42:10.100
Listen, the only thing that would make anybody that's contrary and happy is

01:42:10.100 --> 01:42:16.560
that they got to see a lot of red, white and blue and people performed in English.

01:42:17.260 --> 01:42:25.280
That's it. I mean, the quality, the songs, the, you know, and to give Kid Rock

01:42:25.280 --> 01:42:29.160
his respect, you know, he had one hit song.

01:42:30.420 --> 01:42:37.360
So, you know, for those who like that song, it was good that he performed that, but...

01:42:38.733 --> 01:42:48.413
Outside of that, you know, it was almost like Star Search that nobody got disqualified from, right?

01:42:48.553 --> 01:42:51.453
Or Showtime at Apollo and the Sandman didn't come with the hook.

01:42:51.633 --> 01:42:53.953
That's the only difference, right?

01:42:55.913 --> 01:43:00.713
So it is what it is. I mean, I don't want to disparage artists,

01:43:00.853 --> 01:43:08.073
but if you sign up for that, you don't really give a damn about me or anybody else.

01:43:08.073 --> 01:43:11.653
So if I hurt your feelings, so be it, right?

01:43:12.713 --> 01:43:20.813
But, you know, all this contrarian behavior leads to dysfunction,

01:43:20.833 --> 01:43:27.373
and it leads to incompetence, and it leads to buffoonery, right?

01:43:27.373 --> 01:43:34.653
And there was no greater example of that than when the so-called attorney general

01:43:34.653 --> 01:43:36.313
of the United States of America,

01:43:36.833 --> 01:43:44.393
Pam Bondi, who I don't know how y'all view people, but I'm older than Pam.

01:43:45.413 --> 01:43:47.053
And, you know.

01:43:48.240 --> 01:43:55.440
I don't know. I mean, but I guess when you are oppressed, when you're under a lot of stress,

01:43:56.080 --> 01:44:03.420
you know, your whole complexion, your whole demeanor, your physical presence changes.

01:44:05.780 --> 01:44:12.100
And if you're not in good spirit, because being contrarian truly means that

01:44:12.100 --> 01:44:14.000
you don't have a good spirit.

01:44:14.000 --> 01:44:18.460
And there's something that's troubling you to the point where you can't see

01:44:18.460 --> 01:44:26.140
joy or you can't conduct yourself in a manner with composure and dignity. Right.

01:44:27.040 --> 01:44:34.000
And I mean, I don't know. You know, I, you know, some people say,

01:44:34.140 --> 01:44:36.020
well, you're talking about how she looks.

01:44:36.020 --> 01:44:42.320
It was like, look at all of them. Look at all of the three gentlemen that represented

01:44:42.320 --> 01:44:45.180
ICE and the Border Patrol.

01:44:45.520 --> 01:44:47.900
They have aged considerably.

01:44:48.480 --> 01:44:53.360
And I know at least two of those guys are younger than me. Right.

01:44:54.080 --> 01:45:00.160
Maybe all three of them. You know, if they're not younger, they're about my age.

01:45:01.662 --> 01:45:09.202
I think they're all younger than me, and they look like they just came out of

01:45:09.202 --> 01:45:12.462
serving in both the Korean, the Vietnam,

01:45:12.862 --> 01:45:17.042
and even the Afghanistan war, like right off the battlefield.

01:45:17.242 --> 01:45:23.562
Like they've just aged that much because they're dealing with being,

01:45:23.562 --> 01:45:30.422
I think the phrase is out of their skis or over their skis, whatever, right?

01:45:31.262 --> 01:45:37.962
They're playing at a level above their pay grade or their skill set. And that's stress.

01:45:38.982 --> 01:45:44.482
But contrarianism leads to incompetence, leads to dysfunction,

01:45:45.362 --> 01:45:50.402
leads to mismanagement, just everything, right?

01:45:50.622 --> 01:45:56.022
Because if you're not in a good place mentally, you're not going to do good

01:45:56.022 --> 01:45:57.962
things. You're just not.

01:45:59.762 --> 01:46:02.742
And, but Pam, getting back to plan bonding,

01:46:03.322 --> 01:46:09.782
the foolishness of that, and I know everybody has talked about it all week and all this stuff,

01:46:10.162 --> 01:46:17.262
you know, but as somebody that has actually participated in a hearing to ask

01:46:17.262 --> 01:46:19.982
people questions, to hear testimony,

01:46:20.402 --> 01:46:27.102
to try to get a better understanding of legislation or how a particular agency

01:46:27.102 --> 01:46:30.562
works, why should we do this, why we shouldn't do this,

01:46:30.762 --> 01:46:35.682
having been a witness at a hearing, you know,

01:46:36.422 --> 01:46:45.542
given written testimony, oral testimony, it was literally the worst display

01:46:45.542 --> 01:46:51.442
I have ever seen of a government official addressing Congress.

01:46:52.750 --> 01:46:56.930
And it doesn't matter what your political affiliation is.

01:46:57.730 --> 01:47:03.990
That should not be acceptable. Now, I understand that people are trying to disbar her in Florida.

01:47:04.290 --> 01:47:09.450
And the only reason why that hasn't happened is because the bar has said,

01:47:09.770 --> 01:47:13.870
we try not to do that when people are in positions.

01:47:14.930 --> 01:47:22.010
And maybe that's why Florida has decided that they're not going to be a part of the ABA.

01:47:22.010 --> 01:47:28.530
The American Bar Association anymore, because I'm sure the American Bar Association

01:47:28.530 --> 01:47:33.590
is kind of like, yeah, I don't see a problem with you getting rid of this person,

01:47:33.610 --> 01:47:35.050
even if they are the attorney general.

01:47:35.370 --> 01:47:37.730
I don't see why they shouldn't be disbarred.

01:47:39.050 --> 01:47:45.110
Basically, the way they're acting in that position is the reason why they should be disbarred, right?

01:47:45.850 --> 01:47:50.350
Because, you know, I've never heard of that in any other state.

01:47:50.610 --> 01:47:56.910
And maybe that's why Texas did the same thing as far as any of their affiliation with the ABA.

01:47:57.150 --> 01:48:03.050
But, you know, because I'm sure there's been complaints about Ken Paxton.

01:48:03.470 --> 01:48:06.710
I don't even know if Greg Abbott is an attorney. Well, yeah, he's an attorney.

01:48:07.150 --> 01:48:11.370
I'm sure there was, there's been some bar complaints about him, right?

01:48:12.090 --> 01:48:16.050
You know, if it haven't been in complaints, it should be.

01:48:18.530 --> 01:48:25.150
Right? Because the whole purpose of being and practicing law is,

01:48:25.430 --> 01:48:28.810
above all else, upholding it, right?

01:48:30.130 --> 01:48:35.030
Even the people that defend folks that have been accused of crimes,

01:48:35.030 --> 01:48:37.130
they are upholding the law.

01:48:37.290 --> 01:48:43.470
They are upholding the Constitution because they're providing counsel for the defense, right?

01:48:44.370 --> 01:48:51.670
So there's a standard that is applied to people that are in that profession,

01:48:51.950 --> 01:48:55.530
that are in that practice, just like any other profession.

01:48:56.675 --> 01:49:04.315
If a doctor yelled at other doctors while they're performing surgery the way

01:49:04.315 --> 01:49:07.815
that Pam Bondi did, probably would lose his license.

01:49:08.475 --> 01:49:13.535
If a teacher yelled at students the way that Pam Bondi did, probably would not

01:49:13.535 --> 01:49:14.995
be in a classroom much longer.

01:49:15.435 --> 01:49:23.355
Hell, we've seen coaches get fired at all levels based on the way that they

01:49:23.355 --> 01:49:26.115
communicated with their players.

01:49:26.795 --> 01:49:34.015
Right? There's a line. There's a level of professionalism that you have to have.

01:49:34.755 --> 01:49:41.255
And to be in a culture where you think that acting that way is cool,

01:49:41.375 --> 01:49:47.335
because she had this smirk on her face, just like Scott Jennings has this smirk on his face on CNN.

01:49:47.335 --> 01:49:56.615
And that contrarian confidence, which is the ultimate oxymoron, right?

01:49:58.070 --> 01:50:01.670
You know, that, oh, I got those liberals, right?

01:50:01.910 --> 01:50:06.990
I got those folks that don't agree with our position. I showed them.

01:50:07.630 --> 01:50:12.650
You showed how much of an ass you were. That's all you did. That's all you did.

01:50:14.370 --> 01:50:20.730
And it was an embarrassment. Even to the people that you pissed off,

01:50:20.890 --> 01:50:24.770
they were embarrassed that it got to that point.

01:50:24.770 --> 01:50:32.810
You're sitting up here talking about the Dow Jones Index and the S&P,

01:50:33.070 --> 01:50:41.490
and the whole purpose of the hearing was to determine what are you doing to

01:50:41.490 --> 01:50:48.070
help the survivors of the worst sex trafficking ring in world history, right? Right.

01:50:48.490 --> 01:50:54.770
We're trying to find out what have you found out about this guy Epstein, who's no longer with us,

01:50:55.650 --> 01:51:02.930
you know, how he became a multimillionaire off of trafficking young women and

01:51:02.930 --> 01:51:10.630
who all was involved, who all needs to take accountability for that. Right.

01:51:11.230 --> 01:51:15.050
Because some people are catching it now.

01:51:15.270 --> 01:51:19.630
You know, some young woman just retired from a law firm because she was given

01:51:19.630 --> 01:51:22.750
Epstein legal advice without the firm's knowledge.

01:51:23.870 --> 01:51:28.870
So she's gone. A guy who used to be an economic advisor to a president.

01:51:29.110 --> 01:51:33.710
It's basically gone into hiding, gave up his position at an Ivy League school.

01:51:34.971 --> 01:51:40.831
Because of his connection, we've got people in the cabinet, next door neighbors,

01:51:41.211 --> 01:51:48.671
bought a house from Epstein after he was convicted in 2008 for doing the same thing.

01:51:49.831 --> 01:51:51.131
Prostitution of a child.

01:51:52.451 --> 01:51:58.631
And all these members of Congress were trying to do was to find out where you had in the case.

01:51:59.191 --> 01:52:03.391
They wanted to know about the Dow Jones and his impact. That's what Secretary

01:52:03.391 --> 01:52:06.231
Besson is for. He's the treasury guy.

01:52:06.731 --> 01:52:12.711
They could have got Epstein's neighbor, Lutnik, to come in, the commerce guy.

01:52:12.951 --> 01:52:14.871
But he made his money off the stock.

01:52:15.811 --> 01:52:19.751
Let's ask him about the importance of the stock market. They're not asking the

01:52:19.751 --> 01:52:22.691
attorney general of the United States about the stock market.

01:52:23.471 --> 01:52:27.791
Nobody's there to talk about that. There are women in the audience that were

01:52:27.791 --> 01:52:30.471
victims or survivors of,

01:52:31.415 --> 01:52:36.315
want to hear what you're doing to help them. And, you know, you said,

01:52:36.475 --> 01:52:40.275
well, you didn't ask that about the previous attorney general.

01:52:40.415 --> 01:52:43.695
You didn't ask the attorney general before that, the attorney general before that.

01:52:45.115 --> 01:52:51.435
No, I guess they didn't. Because for some reason, I think people thought it

01:52:51.435 --> 01:52:53.775
was kind of handled after 2008.

01:52:54.415 --> 01:52:57.055
And now we're realizing that it got worse.

01:52:58.635 --> 01:53:03.855
So, you know, it's Like one survivor said, you know, we've been looking for justice for 30 years.

01:53:04.555 --> 01:53:11.235
So, yeah, there's a lot of attorney generals that have been there in the last

01:53:11.235 --> 01:53:13.055
30 years. But guess what?

01:53:13.955 --> 01:53:21.155
You're the attorney general right now. So it doesn't matter about the other folks what you do.

01:53:21.495 --> 01:53:26.955
The ball is in your court. So if that's something you can't handle,

01:53:27.255 --> 01:53:31.875
then maybe you should step aside and let somebody that can't handle it, handle it.

01:53:32.335 --> 01:53:37.415
But in this contrarian environment we're in, her foolishness,

01:53:37.695 --> 01:53:44.115
her buffoonery, her brazen disrespect is OK.

01:53:44.935 --> 01:53:51.015
And that should be a problem for all of us. Right now, if you're cynical about

01:53:51.015 --> 01:53:53.015
stuff, well, they're not going to get anything done.

01:53:53.015 --> 01:54:01.975
Well, you know, I mean, it's hard to argue when stuff hadn't been done in 30 years. I get that.

01:54:03.155 --> 01:54:08.615
But it's not acceptable to be contrarian and just act a fool when people ask you questions about it.

01:54:09.255 --> 01:54:13.155
You know, that's not owning anything. And like I've said before,

01:54:13.655 --> 01:54:16.315
slavery is over with. So we don't own human beings.

01:54:17.786 --> 01:54:23.326
Don't. You can have your opinion. I can disagree with it. Keep it moving.

01:54:24.106 --> 01:54:30.606
But it's like, you know, you just basically said, look, we're doing the best we can.

01:54:31.766 --> 01:54:35.106
Apologize that it's not going as fast as some of y'all want.

01:54:35.386 --> 01:54:43.586
I apologize that the survivors are not feeling that they're not getting the justice they deserve,

01:54:43.886 --> 01:54:51.906
but we're doing the best we can to finally put some closure on this and to hold people accountable.

01:54:52.226 --> 01:54:56.126
If she had just repeated that every time somebody asked her a question,

01:54:56.366 --> 01:55:01.566
that would have been more acceptable than her trying to literally have a book

01:55:01.566 --> 01:55:08.326
that supposedly had got you moments for each member of Congress that she or

01:55:08.326 --> 01:55:09.686
the president doesn't like.

01:55:09.686 --> 01:55:14.166
And then we find out in the book that the Congress,

01:55:14.726 --> 01:55:18.986
members of Congress that went to actually look at the unredacted files,

01:55:19.246 --> 01:55:27.326
she actually had a page or a book that broke down what files they pulled up.

01:55:28.805 --> 01:55:35.865
So we're being nosy. That's what surveillance is. We're being nosy.

01:55:36.545 --> 01:55:39.785
I want to see what this representative looked at. I want to see what this.

01:55:40.105 --> 01:55:44.805
What does it matter? You opened it up so that they could look at all of them.

01:55:44.825 --> 01:55:46.885
You put out 3 million pages.

01:55:47.965 --> 01:55:51.645
So you want to see, are you trying to see which ones are popular,

01:55:51.805 --> 01:55:54.005
which ones are not? Right?

01:55:54.865 --> 01:56:01.925
I am sure that if a member of Congress read something in the files that they

01:56:01.925 --> 01:56:05.605
want further questions about, they know how to get in contact with you.

01:56:05.765 --> 01:56:08.605
How do I know that? Because they put out a book.

01:56:09.045 --> 01:56:12.245
It's a congressional directory. It's a huge book.

01:56:12.745 --> 01:56:20.465
And it's got the phone numbers, direct phone numbers of every person in government.

01:56:21.105 --> 01:56:28.105
It's got the direct number to the attorney general. If they wanted to contact you, they'll call you.

01:56:28.725 --> 01:56:36.265
You ain't got to spy on them to figure out what they're looking at. That's crazy, right?

01:56:37.225 --> 01:56:46.185
But, you know, that was all like, I guess, to, you know, embarrass them. I don't know.

01:56:46.465 --> 01:56:53.325
All I know is that contrarian behavior is not going to move this country forward.

01:56:54.545 --> 01:56:57.725
Foolishness is not going to move this country forward. Pettiness is not going

01:56:57.725 --> 01:56:58.745
to move this country forward.

01:56:59.065 --> 01:57:02.565
Revenge is not going to move this country forward.

01:57:04.225 --> 01:57:07.865
If that was the case, then Martin Luther King would be known as revolutionary.

01:57:08.785 --> 01:57:14.765
Malcolm X actually would have been shooting people, right? That's not how this works.

01:57:16.292 --> 01:57:22.932
We are here to express ideals and to build on hope, not despair,

01:57:23.652 --> 01:57:30.192
not to play on fear, not to play to dozens. We're grown folks.

01:57:30.392 --> 01:57:34.732
That's that's not how we function effectively.

01:57:35.592 --> 01:57:40.772
Our job is to do our job and do it to the best of our ability.

01:57:40.772 --> 01:57:45.152
That's why you take an oath before you start working on the job,

01:57:45.152 --> 01:57:49.632
because you are making a verbal commitment that you're going to do the best

01:57:49.632 --> 01:57:53.712
that you can do within the confines of the Constitution of the United States

01:57:53.712 --> 01:57:56.872
and the laws thereof, period.

01:57:57.392 --> 01:58:03.872
If you cannot do that job, step aside and let somebody who is capable step in.

01:58:04.712 --> 01:58:08.632
Yeah, there's a lot of power and prestige and the title sounds awesome,

01:58:08.832 --> 01:58:12.952
but it ain't about the glitz and the glamour. It's about the work.

01:58:13.592 --> 01:58:16.712
And if you're unwilling to do the work, that's just not for Ms.

01:58:16.792 --> 01:58:20.552
Bundy. That's for everybody that's in the cabinet. That's for the president himself.

01:58:21.092 --> 01:58:27.352
If you're not willing to do the work, step aside and let somebody else do the

01:58:27.352 --> 01:58:33.272
work that's capable of doing it, that has the professionalism to do it,

01:58:33.352 --> 01:58:35.992
that has the temperament to do it.

01:58:36.552 --> 01:58:42.712
If you are triggered because somebody asked you as the Attorney General of the

01:58:42.712 --> 01:58:50.492
United States to look at the survivors of the worst sex trafficking ring in

01:58:50.492 --> 01:58:51.892
the history of the world,

01:58:52.612 --> 01:58:55.932
that triggers you. This is not the job for you.

01:58:56.632 --> 01:59:02.352
You've been an Attorney General for a state. You've been a prosecutor You have

01:59:02.352 --> 01:59:08.952
dealt with victims and survivors You have dealt with criminals Right?

01:59:09.672 --> 01:59:11.732
What's different than this?

01:59:13.231 --> 01:59:20.171
The magnitude of it, the people that might be involved, it is what it is.

01:59:20.471 --> 01:59:24.051
If you can't handle it, step aside.

01:59:24.751 --> 01:59:29.531
And if you're offended by what I say, so be it.

01:59:31.091 --> 01:59:35.711
I've been in situations where they asked me to resign, right?

01:59:36.511 --> 01:59:41.951
I've made mistakes being an elected official, but I was accountable for it.

01:59:42.471 --> 01:59:47.211
And for nine years, I served. And when the people decided it's time for Mr.

01:59:47.311 --> 01:59:49.191
Fleming to go to the House, they sent me home.

01:59:49.831 --> 01:59:54.511
When I asked to be a United States senator, the majority of people decided to

01:59:54.511 --> 01:59:57.451
keep the guy they had. It is what it is.

01:59:57.971 --> 02:00:03.371
I'm not mad about that. I'm disappointed. Yeah, I was disappointed then.

02:00:04.431 --> 02:00:09.751
I'm a little disappointed now. But that doesn't make me a contrarian.

02:00:09.751 --> 02:00:17.231
That didn't create this mindset in me that I'm just going to destroy the system

02:00:17.231 --> 02:00:23.471
because I can't get what I want, which is exactly what's going on with this administration.

02:00:24.251 --> 02:00:31.351
They are systematically destroying the very institution that it took 250 years to build.

02:00:31.811 --> 02:00:36.951
We are celebrating 250 years of being a country, and we have an administration

02:00:36.951 --> 02:00:39.051
that's trying to destroy all of that.

02:00:39.751 --> 02:00:42.671
For whatever personal petty reason they've got.

02:00:44.442 --> 02:00:48.902
A man who did something that only one other human being has done.

02:00:49.342 --> 02:00:54.102
Run for president, win the presidency, lose the next election,

02:00:54.682 --> 02:00:57.462
come back the following election, and win.

02:00:57.702 --> 02:00:59.982
Only one other human being has done that.

02:01:00.322 --> 02:01:04.322
And Grover Cleveland didn't go around, at least not from any accounts I've seen,

02:01:04.462 --> 02:01:06.982
saying, well, you know, I won the other election.

02:01:07.822 --> 02:01:14.702
You know, they stole it from me. And that was at a time where he could have served multiple terms.

02:01:15.602 --> 02:01:21.042
He could have served three terms in a row, but he served one term,

02:01:21.562 --> 02:01:26.002
lost the election, came back the following election, and won.

02:01:26.822 --> 02:01:33.282
But now this president can't go over the fact that the people rejected him, right?

02:01:33.562 --> 02:01:39.282
He can't go over the fact that nearly 60% of the population can't stand him now.

02:01:39.942 --> 02:01:46.102
After he won the election, literally a year after he won.

02:01:46.322 --> 02:01:52.462
Now everybody's like buyer's remorse because you're not doing the job.

02:01:52.782 --> 02:01:55.482
You're not doing what you said you were going to do.

02:01:55.962 --> 02:02:02.482
Well, outside of the crazy mass deportation thing, and that's only because you

02:02:02.482 --> 02:02:05.602
got a zealot like Stephen Miller in your ear pushing it.

02:02:05.982 --> 02:02:10.482
That's it. Because if you had competent people running it, you could probably

02:02:10.482 --> 02:02:16.762
pull that off without killing people in Minnesota or shooting people in Chicago

02:02:16.762 --> 02:02:20.762
or dropping helicopters in Chicago, right?

02:02:21.382 --> 02:02:25.142
Repelling from helicopters and arresting children.

02:02:26.942 --> 02:02:30.862
Be staging military maneuvers in a park in downtown Los Angeles.

02:02:31.502 --> 02:02:38.802
You do the job. I've had a border patrol agent who wrote a book about the horrors

02:02:38.802 --> 02:02:47.182
and the struggles that they have dealing with the cartels and smuggling people across the border.

02:02:47.682 --> 02:02:50.902
We know it's not an easy job.

02:02:51.102 --> 02:02:55.882
And so what you got to do on the border, on the southern border of the United

02:02:55.882 --> 02:03:00.242
States to deal with that, you really have the latitude to do that.

02:03:01.002 --> 02:03:04.702
Nobody's really arguing with you about it, especially those of us that have

02:03:04.702 --> 02:03:06.782
a law enforcement background. We get it.

02:03:07.382 --> 02:03:09.162
But you can't do that in Chicago.

02:03:09.782 --> 02:03:13.642
You can't do that in Minneapolis. You can't do that in New York.

02:03:13.802 --> 02:03:15.082
You can't do that in Los Angeles.

02:03:15.582 --> 02:03:18.682
You can't even do that in Jackson, Mississippi. You can't do that.

02:03:19.442 --> 02:03:21.762
You got to have a different approach.

02:03:22.722 --> 02:03:28.982
And if you are trying to get the worst of the worst out, which is what you said, Mr.

02:03:29.122 --> 02:03:36.482
President, then you got people that can do that without, and you got other agencies to help you.

02:03:37.182 --> 02:03:39.862
The FBI deals with criminals every day.

02:03:40.662 --> 02:03:44.262
DEA deals with criminals every day, especially in the drug enforcement thing.

02:03:44.442 --> 02:03:50.502
You've got ATF if you would ever fund it, but now I think they've actually merged

02:03:50.502 --> 02:03:51.962
that in with the DEA somehow.

02:03:52.762 --> 02:04:01.182
You could develop a strategy that doesn't terrorize citizens to accomplish what you want.

02:04:01.702 --> 02:04:05.162
And even though the Supreme Court said racial profiling is okay,

02:04:05.622 --> 02:04:07.382
you probably shouldn't practice that.

02:04:07.882 --> 02:04:16.362
You probably shouldn't be stopping and frisking and detaining people of color just because.

02:04:18.165 --> 02:04:23.465
Literally have a Russian mafia in the United States of America.

02:04:23.985 --> 02:04:27.125
Why are we not deporting these people, right?

02:04:27.865 --> 02:04:32.345
If you're going after the worst of the worst, Armenians, whoever.

02:04:33.065 --> 02:04:38.745
If they didn't exist, we wouldn't even have all these movies out, TV shows.

02:04:39.405 --> 02:04:43.225
I'm just saying, if you're trying to get the worst of the worst,

02:04:43.885 --> 02:04:47.005
you might want to go after them too.

02:04:48.165 --> 02:04:55.365
All I'm saying is that at this particular point in time, I'm hoping that this

02:04:55.365 --> 02:04:59.685
whole Pam Bondi thing conveys a message that.

02:05:01.556 --> 02:05:09.216
To do better. Even if we have disagreements on issues and strategies of how

02:05:09.216 --> 02:05:12.936
to deal with issues, right? Because the contrarian thing, it just doesn't work.

02:05:13.776 --> 02:05:18.596
Y'all remember American fries? Of course not, because it was contrarian.

02:05:19.096 --> 02:05:25.236
Do you remember they came out with a W ketchup to counter John Kerry because

02:05:25.236 --> 02:05:30.216
John Kerry married the heirs to the Heinz ketchup fortune?

02:05:31.136 --> 02:05:35.536
Y'all remember W? Of course not. Because it was contrarian. It didn't matter.

02:05:36.556 --> 02:05:39.736
Contrarian doesn't sell. Hope sells.

02:05:41.136 --> 02:05:45.896
Competent sells. Right? Competence, I should say, sells.

02:05:47.016 --> 02:05:51.496
Being functional. Being professional. That sells.

02:05:52.076 --> 02:05:57.276
That foolishness that happened this week, starting with the halftime,

02:05:57.276 --> 02:06:04.456
the all-American, quote-unquote, halftime show, we've got to do better,

02:06:04.556 --> 02:06:06.196
y'all. We've got to do better.

02:06:06.816 --> 02:06:11.376
And as a society, our obligation is to demand better.

02:06:11.756 --> 02:06:17.176
If you want to be entertained, and Mark Burnett, wherever you are,

02:06:17.336 --> 02:06:23.836
if you hear this, I have always blamed you for the devolution of American culture.

02:06:23.836 --> 02:06:28.716
Ever since that first episode of Survivor showed up, right?

02:06:28.976 --> 02:06:31.756
And you created this monster, Donald Trump.

02:06:33.196 --> 02:06:36.376
So I'll never have any high regard for you.

02:06:38.132 --> 02:06:41.512
You've made your money. You could care less about my opinion.

02:06:41.752 --> 02:06:47.432
But just understand, there's at least one American who thinks that you contributed

02:06:47.432 --> 02:06:49.232
to the destruction of our culture.

02:06:50.672 --> 02:06:57.212
And, you know, and now we have a creature from your creation running the country.

02:06:57.692 --> 02:07:05.552
And people are being entertained, right? There's no secret that people like foolishness on TV.

02:07:06.972 --> 02:07:13.512
But it shouldn't be in our government, right? You know, if you go to local cities.

02:07:14.892 --> 02:07:19.852
The city councils that are constantly fighting each other, that's the most highly

02:07:19.852 --> 02:07:26.632
watched show in that demographic because people are acting foolish.

02:07:27.412 --> 02:07:31.712
And just like we like looking at car wrecks, we like looking at people crashing out.

02:07:32.192 --> 02:07:36.172
It's human nature. But government is not supposed to be entertaining.

02:07:37.012 --> 02:07:41.752
Government actually is supposed to be boring. That's why only a select few people

02:07:41.752 --> 02:07:44.672
get chosen to handle that.

02:07:44.772 --> 02:07:47.032
And the rest of us lives our lives.

02:07:47.512 --> 02:07:51.612
We're hoping that the decisions that you make don't impact our lives in such

02:07:51.612 --> 02:07:58.792
a way where we got to ask some questions and make some decisions about the leadership. Right?

02:07:59.812 --> 02:08:03.652
Government is supposed to be boring. It's not supposed to be entertaining.

02:08:04.072 --> 02:08:10.912
And the sooner we get that, the sooner we can stop the foolishness that we saw

02:08:10.912 --> 02:08:15.972
up there on Capitol Hill, the sooner we could get competent people alive.