Dialogue & Understanding Featuring Rajiv Vinnakota and Howard Yaruss

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Hello, and welcome to another Moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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So I hope that everyone has had an awesome Thanksgiving holiday.

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As you are listening to this, you're getting back into the work week.

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You've recovered from your feasting and football and holiday shopping and all

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the traditional stuff that you do.

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We still got a couple of things going on, you know, the Cyber Monday,

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which would be today and Giving Tuesday and all that.

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So the holiday season is in full swing.

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And I just pray that everybody is doing well that's listening to the podcast.

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You know, and again, this is the season of giving as well as receiving.

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And so, you know, just find the causes that you believe in.

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There's one particular cause that we're going to have a guest on to talk about

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the work they're doing and that

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you can give to, you know, dealing with engaging people in this process.

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And then the other guest is, as we're spending this money during the holiday season,

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someone has written a book to try to help you better understand what's going

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on in the economy and just kind of break it down in a way where you can have

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intelligent conversations about it.

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And I know economics is not really a big topic in conversations,

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but, you know, we don't look at it that way.

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But, you know, when we're making decisions about how many gifts we're going

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to buy and, you know, how we're going to pay our bills and all that,

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that's part of economics. You know, what jobs we're trying to get, all that.

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So we got a guest in that can kind of break that down. And he's written a book about that.

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Grace is not going to be here. We're not going to do any news.

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You know, we're going to try to keep this as short as possible in this deal.

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But I do have some commentary that I want to get into after you listen to our

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guests that I think, well, I know it's relevant to where we are.

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But I didn't really want to harp on any news this particular time.

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Time, let Miss Grace enjoy her holiday along with her family and other people.

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And, you know, y'all have some time not only listening to this episode,

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but maybe catch up with some.

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So if you want to catch up with some episodes, you can go to your,

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wherever you listen to this podcast and catch up, or you can go directly to

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momenterik.com and do that as well as subscribe to the podcast.

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That's right. We, you know, in the giving season, we would like for some of

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y'all to give us a subscription so we can keep this independent podcast going.

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You know, a scenario came up where if we had a significant amount of subscriptions,

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we could have taken advantage of it.

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But, you know, by this time next year, I think we'll be better off.

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And it's because of supporters and listeners like you. So let's go ahead and

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get this show started, this special holiday after Thanksgiving show.

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And I want this to be...

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I guess it's the title would be Dialogue and Understanding, because that's really

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what this show is going to be about.

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And so the first guest I'm bringing forward is going to have the part about the dialogue.

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And his name is Rajiv Vinnakota. A pioneering social entrepreneur,

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Rajiv Vinnakota serves as president of the Institute for Citizens and Scholars,

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leading his mission to cultivate the talent, ideas, and networks that develop

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lifelong effective citizens.

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To that end, he works tirelessly to build relationships with the partners and

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sponsors without whom citizens and scholars could not succeed,

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while at the same time, fostering a strong organizational culture focused on American civic values.

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Raj has dedicated his life to initiatives that help American citizens from all

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walks of life to become productive and engaged members of society.

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Early in his career, Raj co-founded the SEED Foundation, the nation's first

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network of public college preparatory boarding schools for underserved children.

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The SEED schools were featured in both television and film, and Raj won multiple

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awards for his work with SEED, including Harvard University's Innovation and

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American Government Award,

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Fast Company Monitor Group's Social Capitalist Award, and Oprah Winfrey's Use Your Life Award.

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Roz continued to serve on the board of directors for SEAT.

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Before joining the Institute for Citizens and Scholars, Raj served as Executive

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Vice President of the Aspen Institute.

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In this role, he launched and led the new Youth and Engagement Programs Division

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devoted to youth leadership development and civic engagement and opportunity.

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Raj currently co-chairs the Civics and Civic Engagement Task Force for the United

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States Congress Semi-Quincentennial Commission, celebrating the 250th anniversary

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of the country's founding.

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Raj also co-chairs the Civic Learning Pillar of the Partnership for American

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Democracy, a coalition of American leaders directing resources and attention

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toward efforts to save U.S.

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Democracy, and serves on the Advisory Committee for Citizen Data.

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Raj has been at the forefront of innovative scholarship and research that has

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played a pivotal role in shaping the civic field.

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His publication credits include From Civic Education to a Civic Learning Ecosystem,

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mapping civic measurement, and the civic outlook of young adults in America.

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He is a Forbes contributor and appears regularly in media outlets such as Associated

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Press, NPR, The Hill, Chronicle of Higher Education, Philanthropy News Digest,

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and Nonprofit Quarterly.

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As an expert on civic learning and Gen Z,

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he has spoken at Fordham Institute, Results for America Civic Learning Week

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The Ronald Reagan Presidential Library And as commencement speaker For the University

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of Chicago Charter School And the University of Pittsburgh.

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Raj grew up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, the child of Indian immigrants who instilled

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in him the faith that a good education could open doors to great things.

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He graduated from Princeton University and is a recipient of Princeton's Woodrow

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Wilson Award, the university's highest honor for undergraduate alumni.

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In addition to being a former trustee and executive committee member for Princeton

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University, Raj is the former national chair of its annual giving committee.

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Raj is also the recipient of an honorary doctorate from Rutgers University.

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He is also board director for two public companies, Inovus Corporation and ESAB.

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He lives in Maine with his wife, daughter, and cat.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Rajiv Vinnakota.

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Raj Vinnakota. How you doing, sir? You doing good?

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I'm doing well, Erik. How about you? I'm doing lovely, my man.

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Doing lovely. That's great.

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Just getting ready for this Thanksgiving and, you know, just,

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just, I live for holidays now just to be off work.

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That's, that's, I mean, you know, all the food, tradition, all that stuff,

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football, whatever, that's just to be off work is, is, is, is my joy for the holidays now.

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So I hope that you and yours are going to have a good holiday.

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Thank you. And I equally love November and December as well.

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So that's great. Yeah, that's right.

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So what I like to do to kind of get things kicked off is to,

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I do a couple of icebreaker exercises.

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So the first one is a quote that I want you to respond to.

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And the quote is, watching my mother in action, the beautiful whirling dervish

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that she was and still is.

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I saw the incredible value of bringing people together in joy.

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Celebration, and share creativity. it.

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What does that quote mean to you? It means everything.

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My parents and I are immigrants. We moved here when I was eight and we moved

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to Milwaukee where we grew up.

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And my mom was the center of the Indian world, bringing people together, eating good food,

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actually having culture, even in a town where, you know, there are about 40

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Indians there and forever instilled in me the value of bringing disparate people

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together in shared belonging.

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And thankfully, she's still alive with us today. And it is something that she does to this day.

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Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. So now the next one is what I call 20 questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

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Twelve. Okay. What advice do you have for recognizing fake news.

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Propaganda, misinformation, disinformation, however you want to label it?

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The first thing I ask people to do when they get information is to say,

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where did this come from? Who said it?

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And what's the source, which may be different than where did it come from?

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And to go and make sure that not only you understand that, but then ask yourself,

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is there anything else that corroborates this information?

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You need to have a curiosity and always ask that question, almost to the point

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of paranoia, right? of saying, am I sure that this information is real?

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And can I go corroborate it with a different point of view that also says the same thing? Yeah. Yeah.

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You know, and most people just don't put the effort into doing that.

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And, and, and in this political climate now, people have taken advantage of that.

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And, you know, I just got through watching that documentary,

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the American Revolution.

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And, and the impact of the press, especially Thomas Payne was very, very amazing to me,

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because, you know, we look at how we print out stuff and how we can get information out so quick.

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And just to think that they had these crude printing presses and,

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you know, they were showing the guys stamping the, you know,

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the ink and all that stuff.

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And he was cranking out all this stuff and the United States was getting their

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butt kicked and he was cranking out these pamphlets to keep people encouraged and to keep people.

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I said that that's, that was incredibly powerful. And we don't talk about him

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as much as we talk about any of the other quote unquote founding fathers,

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but I mean, to have somebody to just, you know, and, you know,

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from the British side, I'm sure there was propaganda, but it was just like.

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You know, just the power of information, the power of the word, just amazing.

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So I just, when you were talking about making sure you understand the source

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and all that, it just brought that to mind.

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Can I respond to that for a moment? Sure, sure. So two things.

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One is I read somewhere that Common Sense by Thomas Paine is the second most

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published piece of work from that century, you know, after I think the Bible,

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right? It just had such a profound impact.

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And I think it's also the importance of storytelling, is that storytelling is what motivates people.

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It's what both brings facts and emotion together.

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And that is an arc that we have to keep going, right? What's the storytelling

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arc of how we even talk about our lives today?

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And that's one of the things I've tried to highlight on this podcast,

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being a political person,

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is that, you know, that's an art that, you know, a lot of people think it's

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easy, but it's really it's really not.

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And if you look at the political people that we deal with, they don't know how to tell stories.

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They know how to either regurgitate facts or scare the hell out of you,

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but they don't tell stories. Right. So, yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up.

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So you had started your own deal with SEED, but David, you took this job to

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be the president of the Institute for Citizens and Scholars.

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What motivated you to do that?

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So a couple of things happened after I left SEED in 2015.

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And I think the single most important thing was that I realized that our house

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was on fire, that democracy was under assault,

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and that we needed to be able to make sure that our youngest generation,

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those 68 million young people between the ages of 10 and 24 who are entering the public square,

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that they're the kinds of citizens who actually know how to engage in self-government.

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Because if we do that well, I think we'll be fine as a country.

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If we don't, I think we want to continue this backsliding towards authoritarianism.

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So that's the overall view. When I was approached by being president of this

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organization, which at that point was still known as the Woodrow Wilson National

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Fellowship Foundation, I said, you do great, great work in higher education.

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But I think that the single greatest problem we have, education problem we have

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in this country, is we've forgotten how to develop citizens.

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That's the issue I want to tackle. And the search committee said,

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come on in, give us a pitch, let us hear it.

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And so I did, and we discussed it, and I ended up getting the job.

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And I truly believe that this is the platform and the organization that can

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create the social momentum with so many other organizations that reprioritizes

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the development of citizens in this country.

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Yeah. Why is it important to have constructive dialogue and civic preparedness on college campuses?

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Well, we can even start more broadly, right? Why is it important to have constructive

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dialogue and civic preparedness in general is because we are a nation that believes

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in self-government, that it is our responsibility as individuals to decide the

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direction of our country,

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to engage in that in different ways, and then to hold our government accountable.

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That requires the ability to engage across difference, right?

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That's what constructive dialogue is.

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How do you actually engage in civil discourse, empathize, take different perspectives?

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Secondly, how do you collaboratively problem solve? How do you work with people

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with whom you may not agree to try to solve our common problems?

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And the third, Erik, you already mentioned this, was how do you discern and

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use reliable information?

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All three of those things are important. Well, guess what?

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Colleges are rare places where young people actually encounter people with very

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different thinking, where disagreements shouldn't be avoided but explored,

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and kind of, you know, the habits of democracy can be practiced.

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That's what it should mean to go to college, in addition to getting yourself

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ready for a career and networking and so on and so forth.

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So creating that culture, colleges can do that, and that's how we support them.

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All right. In 2024, many high-profile universities failed to protect free expression

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in foster environments where people can disagree productively.

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What are your strategies to change that?

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You know, we're working with more than 100 college presidents now on this very issue.

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And what we say often is, it's not about a single course, it's about changing a culture.

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Or, at certain institutions, further cementing a culture around these notions

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of civil discourse, collaborative problem-solving, and then understanding information.

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Now, how do you do that? You need to do it in such a way that every student

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learns about these issues and then practices them on your campus multiple times a year.

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So you can't just have like a center on campus or you can't just bring a few

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speakers or have one great faculty member because guess what?

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That means a majority of your students aren't going to be doing this.

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So the way in which you change culture is you make sure that it's in the courses,

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you make sure that it's in orientation and other programming, right?

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So you believe and really focus on skills development.

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But you need to do two other things. You need to create the motivation for young

00:19:09.271 --> 00:19:10.931
people to want to do this, right?

00:19:10.971 --> 00:19:14.411
You can teach them as many skills as you want. If they actually don't want to learn it, they won't.

00:19:14.551 --> 00:19:16.871
And so creating the motivation is really important.

00:19:17.291 --> 00:19:20.651
And then the third thing you need to do, as is true of any culture,

00:19:20.911 --> 00:19:24.751
is you need to create the social permission for those young people to use these

00:19:24.751 --> 00:19:26.511
skills when it's necessary, right?

00:19:26.631 --> 00:19:29.651
And that happens through creating peer support, right?

00:19:29.891 --> 00:19:33.151
How is your members of student government? How are your fraternities and sororities

00:19:33.151 --> 00:19:35.991
talking about this? How are your college athletes talking about this and saying,

00:19:36.031 --> 00:19:37.811
this is the right way to act and then,

00:19:38.381 --> 00:19:42.721
even when you don't agree with people. So it's a much broader approach.

00:19:42.981 --> 00:19:46.641
That's what we work with presidents to do. How do you get this and inculcate

00:19:46.641 --> 00:19:48.701
it into everything that you do as an institution?

00:19:49.261 --> 00:19:55.861
So is that the basis of your college presidents for civic preparedness initiative?

00:19:56.201 --> 00:19:59.301
That is exactly the basis for it. Now, interestingly enough,

00:19:59.441 --> 00:20:02.781
Eric, this happened, we started to have these conversations in 2020.

00:20:03.141 --> 00:20:07.181
I literally would pick up the reach out email and then phone different college

00:20:07.181 --> 00:20:11.661
presidents and just say, what are you doing to prepare your students to be good citizens?

00:20:12.041 --> 00:20:15.301
And it was interesting because presidents would give us different answers.

00:20:15.441 --> 00:20:18.901
And I purposely chose really broad and different institutions, right?

00:20:20.181 --> 00:20:25.281
Wesleyan, Rutgers, Howard, Purdue, Claremont McKenna College,

00:20:25.601 --> 00:20:27.861
so on and so forth. Very different institutions, different leaders.

00:20:28.081 --> 00:20:30.081
But they kept telling me two things.

00:20:30.601 --> 00:20:35.661
First is that higher education, colleges and universities had lost their way

00:20:35.661 --> 00:20:40.321
in terms of focusing around the preparation of their students to be citizens,

00:20:40.361 --> 00:20:45.101
that they were just focusing on how do we get our graduates to get a job.

00:20:45.461 --> 00:20:47.761
And that's critical, right? I'm not suggesting it isn't important,

00:20:48.381 --> 00:20:51.981
but colleges and universities have a broader responsibility and mandate.

00:20:52.161 --> 00:20:56.121
And part of it is preparing students and frankly, everyone on your campus to

00:20:56.121 --> 00:20:58.161
be good citizens. And they weren't doing that.

00:20:58.601 --> 00:21:01.421
And the second theme they kept telling me over and over again is,

00:21:01.601 --> 00:21:05.361
even when we try to do this and try to make bold initiatives,

00:21:05.601 --> 00:21:10.141
it's really hard to sustain that work, get lots of pushback from different parts

00:21:10.141 --> 00:21:12.101
and corners and stakeholders on our campus.

00:21:12.561 --> 00:21:17.221
So for us, we were suddenly like, would there be value in actually creating

00:21:17.221 --> 00:21:21.381
a coalition of the willing, call it kind of collective power of college presidents,

00:21:21.761 --> 00:21:24.301
to create cover, support each other,

00:21:24.721 --> 00:21:27.561
look for best practices? So that was the impetus.

00:21:27.961 --> 00:21:31.161
Started with 11 presidents. When we announced ourselves in 2023,

00:21:31.161 --> 00:21:33.541
we did with 14 presidents.

00:21:33.701 --> 00:21:38.801
And it's really taken off. As I said, we're now at 125 college presidents from

00:21:38.801 --> 00:21:41.041
more than 37 states in the District of Columbia.

00:21:41.802 --> 00:21:47.182
Yeah. And that's, that's really, really encouraging. I, so my next question,

00:21:47.462 --> 00:21:56.262
I guess, is kind of cynical in that because of what has happened since,

00:21:56.482 --> 00:22:01.842
since the Trump administration has gotten in and I've watched all these institutions

00:22:01.842 --> 00:22:04.242
that, oh, you're going after them.

00:22:04.362 --> 00:22:08.282
Oh, you, you about to get your brains beat out and then watch them kind of fold.

00:22:08.282 --> 00:22:13.122
So the question came to me is like, should institutions of higher education

00:22:13.122 --> 00:22:18.642
be entrusted in rebuilding one to public trust and true strengthening democracy?

00:22:18.842 --> 00:22:24.682
Because I'm sorry, if Harvard doesn't fight for it, the oldest institution in

00:22:24.682 --> 00:22:31.182
the United States, if they capitulate, what hope is there for the 125 colleges

00:22:31.182 --> 00:22:32.382
that you're working with?

00:22:32.382 --> 00:22:36.762
I mean, what hope is there for some of the smaller like HBCUs?

00:22:36.942 --> 00:22:42.562
I mean, give me some hope, Raj. What are we doing? Is that what I'm doing, Eric? So...

00:22:43.126 --> 00:22:46.506
Let's remember, right, that, and I know you know this, right,

00:22:46.626 --> 00:22:49.566
that there's strength in power and in coalition, right?

00:22:49.786 --> 00:22:54.806
So if institutions are singly kind of taken off, that's going to be a problem.

00:22:54.946 --> 00:22:59.486
But the reason why presidents came to us is creating this coalition to say we're

00:22:59.486 --> 00:23:03.466
all in this together and we're all on this journey together.

00:23:03.466 --> 00:23:08.346
So first is, it's much easier to break a single stick than write all these sticks

00:23:08.346 --> 00:23:10.366
together. So that's an aspect of this.

00:23:10.786 --> 00:23:17.886
Secondly is, this is a really interesting position where everyone actually agrees

00:23:17.886 --> 00:23:19.946
that colleges and universities need to be doing this.

00:23:20.086 --> 00:23:24.986
Even go read what the Trump administration is saying, or go read what the administration

00:23:24.986 --> 00:23:29.366
before it said. They all agreed that this needs to be an area of focus for our

00:23:29.366 --> 00:23:32.786
institutions, and we haven't been doing it as well as we need to.

00:23:33.186 --> 00:23:37.406
So in some ways, we're in an interesting position where everyone says,

00:23:37.606 --> 00:23:41.806
how do we prioritize this, and how do we get to do this well?

00:23:42.046 --> 00:23:47.026
And that's where we come in, because college presidents, these 125 who say,

00:23:47.306 --> 00:23:50.806
hey, we want to go do this, that road isn't easy, because what you're trying

00:23:50.806 --> 00:23:55.226
to do is teach students to be able to argue, right? You want to teach them how

00:23:55.226 --> 00:23:56.866
to create their own positions.

00:23:57.146 --> 00:24:00.186
And if you do it well, sometimes things are going to blow up,

00:24:00.346 --> 00:24:04.026
right? And there's going to be back and forth and there's going to be tension.

00:24:04.446 --> 00:24:09.006
But the question is, how do you do it in the right frame? And so to be able

00:24:09.006 --> 00:24:14.546
to all do it together and say, we're all part of this movement and coalition creates power.

00:24:15.386 --> 00:24:20.186
And we can see the difference even in a few years for how the presidents are

00:24:20.186 --> 00:24:21.926
engaging and starting to make a difference.

00:24:21.926 --> 00:24:27.726
So, Erik, you know, we're about to start actually measuring the impact of our

00:24:27.726 --> 00:24:31.746
work on how students approach and think about speaking up, even if they feel

00:24:31.746 --> 00:24:35.306
they're a minority point of view and how comfortable they are debating with

00:24:35.306 --> 00:24:36.286
people who they don't agree.

00:24:36.526 --> 00:24:40.926
So over time, I hope that I can come back and say, here's the data.

00:24:41.106 --> 00:24:45.246
But we're seeing it on the ground already that students are getting more comfortable with this.

00:24:45.926 --> 00:24:53.026
So, you know, I've I've had a number of history and and political science professors on the show.

00:24:54.866 --> 00:25:01.686
And naturally, those people believe in the engagement and believe in,

00:25:01.686 --> 00:25:05.006
you know, maintaining and strengthening democracy.

00:25:05.006 --> 00:25:09.806
And, you know, they talk about the joy of having these students come in and

00:25:09.806 --> 00:25:13.326
being able to impart knowledge on them and encourage debate and all that.

00:25:13.326 --> 00:25:16.946
But that's expected, right?

00:25:17.466 --> 00:25:22.026
How do we get the math department to do it? How do you get the science department to do it?

00:25:22.266 --> 00:25:29.446
How do you build a culture on a campus just outside of the College of Liberal Arts, right?

00:25:29.526 --> 00:25:33.346
How do you build that culture where it's incorporated?

00:25:33.666 --> 00:25:40.386
You know, you're a big sports fan, you know, I mean, how do you get people to

00:25:40.386 --> 00:25:42.386
understand that all this is connected?

00:25:43.378 --> 00:25:45.998
A great question. So let me give you two stories just to start with.

00:25:46.118 --> 00:25:50.778
One is that we do this faculty institute to support faculty members to bring

00:25:50.778 --> 00:25:52.278
contentious issues in the classroom.

00:25:52.638 --> 00:25:57.398
And about 20% of the faculty members who come to our institute are actually

00:25:57.398 --> 00:26:00.738
from the STEM fields, science, technology, engineering, math.

00:26:01.078 --> 00:26:07.278
And there's actually a lot of new research and even books on how to bring civics into math.

00:26:07.418 --> 00:26:12.698
So for example, if you want to talk about doing a bond authority to build a

00:26:12.698 --> 00:26:14.238
new baseball stadium, right?

00:26:14.438 --> 00:26:18.338
Which we all know we've experienced at different times. And so there's a lot

00:26:18.338 --> 00:26:19.378
of math involved with that.

00:26:19.518 --> 00:26:22.798
But then you can also debate the implications of that.

00:26:22.998 --> 00:26:28.258
And so how you create the process that says, okay, here's the math that allows

00:26:28.258 --> 00:26:30.358
us to understand what we're asking from the public.

00:26:30.498 --> 00:26:34.198
Now, let's also debate whether or not that's good policy, right?

00:26:34.238 --> 00:26:35.698
And what's the trade-offs and so on.

00:26:35.838 --> 00:26:39.418
So that's part of what we try to engage and teach our faculty members.

00:26:39.898 --> 00:26:43.278
And then let me tell you a second story, because about roughly speaking now,

00:26:43.638 --> 00:26:48.078
more than 10% of our presidents come from community colleges, right?

00:26:48.238 --> 00:26:52.198
Two-year institutions, associate's degrees, they go on to bachelor's and so on.

00:26:52.458 --> 00:26:57.298
And I was recently giving a talk at the state where I live. I live in Maine

00:26:57.298 --> 00:26:58.798
at York Community College.

00:26:59.258 --> 00:27:02.818
And we were talking about this. And at the end of it, the head of the nursing

00:27:02.818 --> 00:27:06.358
program came over and talked to me and I said, Raj, let me just tell you that

00:27:06.358 --> 00:27:12.458
every day I have to teach my nurses how to take incoming from the surgeon,

00:27:12.758 --> 00:27:15.978
from other members of the medical team, loved ones who want to know what's going

00:27:15.978 --> 00:27:17.378
on, sometimes even the patient.

00:27:17.498 --> 00:27:22.278
I have to get them to figure out how to triage, how to communicate effectively

00:27:22.278 --> 00:27:24.898
to all of them so that they can then go on and do what they need to do,

00:27:25.018 --> 00:27:27.218
and then do it over and over and over again.

00:27:27.698 --> 00:27:31.218
Raj, you call that civic skills. I call that teaching nursing.

00:27:32.198 --> 00:27:36.598
And it was a real aha moment to me that even though I talk about that kind of

00:27:36.598 --> 00:27:40.818
in the public space, there are so many jobs in other places where teachers,

00:27:41.238 --> 00:27:43.018
faculty members are already doing this.

00:27:43.138 --> 00:27:47.738
It's the exact same skills, and it's just being applied in different worlds.

00:27:47.958 --> 00:27:52.378
And so what I told this nursing leader, I said, keep doing it and just remind

00:27:52.378 --> 00:27:55.918
all of your nurses that they can take those very same skills and take it to

00:27:55.918 --> 00:27:58.398
a community town council meeting, right?

00:27:58.398 --> 00:28:02.358
Or else plays because they've already developed those skills to be able to work

00:28:02.358 --> 00:28:03.518
with people across difference.

00:28:03.938 --> 00:28:08.738
So it's about making sure that other people understand that these skills are

00:28:08.738 --> 00:28:12.478
both life skills and they can be applied throughout the program and curriculum.

00:28:13.178 --> 00:28:20.538
Yeah, yeah. All right. So your eyes light up whenever we talk about young people,

00:28:20.718 --> 00:28:22.398
just a brief time that we've been talking.

00:28:22.858 --> 00:28:28.638
And you are considered a Gen Z whisperer. What is it about that generation that

00:28:28.638 --> 00:28:30.978
future political leaders should understand?

00:28:32.072 --> 00:28:34.452
Yeah. So first thing first, I don't know how much of a whisperer I am,

00:28:34.552 --> 00:28:40.912
but I certainly spent time both with them and doing all kinds of research to understand them.

00:28:41.092 --> 00:28:46.452
We actually just came out with a new report called the Gen Z Civic Vibe Check.

00:28:46.652 --> 00:28:49.052
It just came out actually about 10 days ago.

00:28:49.412 --> 00:28:53.912
And it's really interesting because I think the most important point to take

00:28:53.912 --> 00:28:59.992
away is that 90% of young people say they care about their communities and feel

00:28:59.992 --> 00:29:01.992
responsibility to improve them,

00:29:02.172 --> 00:29:08.772
but 42% of them say they would get more involved if they simply knew where to

00:29:08.772 --> 00:29:12.672
begin or had clear pathways to actually engage.

00:29:13.052 --> 00:29:18.152
So a significant part of our work has to be, how do we create the pathway so

00:29:18.152 --> 00:29:22.352
that they can see and say, oh, that's how I can work, that's how I can make

00:29:22.352 --> 00:29:23.372
a difference in our community.

00:29:23.912 --> 00:29:27.472
The second thing I'll say, and this may be very surprising, it wasn't to me,

00:29:27.612 --> 00:29:33.492
is that most of them, a super majority of them actually prefer in-person engagement,

00:29:33.952 --> 00:29:36.292
right? They're not just staying on their phones or social media.

00:29:36.992 --> 00:29:42.632
77% say they're more likely to get involved if it's in-person than rather than

00:29:42.632 --> 00:29:47.112
online, which to me is a great news, right? Like that's how we want them engaged.

00:29:47.432 --> 00:29:51.252
And frankly, that's how you do the hard work of actually practicing democracy.

00:29:51.732 --> 00:29:55.372
And so we're learning more about what these young people want to do.

00:29:55.492 --> 00:30:01.232
And we realize that we need to both create role models, but also show them peers

00:30:01.232 --> 00:30:05.392
who are doing similar things so they can be like, oh, look, people just like

00:30:05.392 --> 00:30:08.732
me who are engaging in community and actually trying to make a difference.

00:30:09.232 --> 00:30:11.212
Yeah, that's vital.

00:30:11.992 --> 00:30:16.632
It doesn't surprise me. It just, it's encouraging.

00:30:17.884 --> 00:30:23.384
But, you know, I just have to be mindful, just me personally,

00:30:23.384 --> 00:30:27.744
and I think other people that are in politics need to be mindful. Just think back.

00:30:28.004 --> 00:30:32.984
Well, it's like parenting, right? Just think back when you were a child and

00:30:32.984 --> 00:30:37.244
what drove your parents crazy. And now you see your children doing it,

00:30:37.344 --> 00:30:38.764
right, or your grandchildren, whatever.

00:30:40.124 --> 00:30:45.004
But in a positive way in politics. And I love to tell the story about when Harold

00:30:45.004 --> 00:30:49.144
Washington first got elected in Chicago, because he was the first black mayor.

00:30:49.564 --> 00:30:54.464
Yeah. And, you know, we are first time voters.

00:30:54.744 --> 00:30:58.324
We were the ones that were like totally engaged.

00:30:58.804 --> 00:31:03.844
I never met the man personally, but, you know, my parents had met him.

00:31:04.164 --> 00:31:06.024
You know, I've seen him on TV.

00:31:06.484 --> 00:31:11.744
Other people had a chance. And but it was just like you just felt like you were a part of something.

00:31:11.884 --> 00:31:18.244
Right. We were talking about Mamdani in New York, and they were saying how the

00:31:18.244 --> 00:31:19.384
young people just engaged.

00:31:19.524 --> 00:31:23.244
I said, but I can relate to that because the Harold Washington button,

00:31:23.484 --> 00:31:25.764
the campaign button, was a fashion accessory.

00:31:25.904 --> 00:31:30.544
I'm of that generation where we were wearing buttons all over our jean jackets and whatever.

00:31:31.084 --> 00:31:33.804
And so if you didn't have the Harold Washington button, it didn't matter,

00:31:33.984 --> 00:31:38.644
well, the buttons you had, you weren't in fashion. And so that was the connection.

00:31:38.984 --> 00:31:47.044
And to hear that young people still want that, that's encouraging as far as

00:31:47.044 --> 00:31:50.704
the human aspect of it, because it's the same.

00:31:50.704 --> 00:31:55.344
We talked about storytelling earlier and personal connection.

00:31:55.584 --> 00:32:02.224
I think that any person that wants to be a leader in this, in this nation,

00:32:02.384 --> 00:32:07.684
they have to master the ability to storytell and they have to be able to connect with people.

00:32:08.264 --> 00:32:14.444
And, you know, from a political consultant standpoint, that sounds wonky,

00:32:14.464 --> 00:32:17.024
but it's like, it's pretty basic because.

00:32:18.182 --> 00:32:21.582
You know, that's how we function, right?

00:32:21.982 --> 00:32:24.962
It's a very, yeah, it's a very human thing, Erik.

00:32:25.122 --> 00:32:28.802
You're absolutely right. And, you know, there's so many people now who talk

00:32:28.802 --> 00:32:30.922
about needing a sense of belonging, right?

00:32:31.062 --> 00:32:35.162
And it's Gen Z, like people are looking to get a sense of belonging because

00:32:35.162 --> 00:32:38.202
being on social media is actually a very lonely thing, right?

00:32:38.542 --> 00:32:43.602
It's how do I connect and feel part of larger movements? How do I actually engage?

00:32:43.882 --> 00:32:47.462
How do I feel that I'm making a difference, right? Like all of those things

00:32:47.462 --> 00:32:48.802
come back to the sense of belonging.

00:32:49.882 --> 00:32:55.722
Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, people try to make things really, really complicated and hard.

00:32:55.842 --> 00:33:01.322
And it's really, it's just, it's just a matter of tapping into your humanity.

00:33:02.462 --> 00:33:05.602
And once you tap into that, then you can be successful.

00:33:05.722 --> 00:33:08.842
I look at, you know, case study, John F.

00:33:08.902 --> 00:33:12.762
Kennedy, case study, Barack Obama, case study, Ronald Reagan.

00:33:12.762 --> 00:33:19.022
You know, it's like those particular, there's actually generations attached

00:33:19.022 --> 00:33:20.842
to those individuals, right?

00:33:21.102 --> 00:33:24.022
As far as how they think politically and all that.

00:33:24.182 --> 00:33:27.722
So I appreciate the fact that you're willing to do this kind of work.

00:33:27.722 --> 00:33:33.722
If people want to get access to that Gen Z report or people want to get involved

00:33:33.722 --> 00:33:38.982
with the Institute for Citizens and Scholars, people want to just get in touch

00:33:38.982 --> 00:33:40.042
with you. How can they do that?

00:33:40.702 --> 00:33:43.322
Easiest way is actually just to go to our website. Not surprising.

00:33:43.522 --> 00:33:47.742
It's just, it's citizensandscholars.org.

00:33:49.062 --> 00:33:52.102
Citizensandscholars.org is, you know, by far the best way.

00:33:52.702 --> 00:33:56.142
And, you know, there's a sign up there where you can sign up to get information,

00:33:56.482 --> 00:33:58.942
to reach out, be part of our work.

00:33:59.042 --> 00:34:03.602
So there's a number of ways, and we are looking for people to engage with us in this work.

00:34:03.782 --> 00:34:07.742
It's going to take as many people as we can get to ensure that we're actually

00:34:07.742 --> 00:34:12.562
building the democracy we need. so I guess well one more question I needed to

00:34:12.562 --> 00:34:16.262
ask so what has been like the,

00:34:17.201 --> 00:34:23.001
Ratio with the HBCUs, what kind of engagement have you been getting with that?

00:34:23.161 --> 00:34:30.581
And what do you think needs to happen to get them more involved if they're not that involved now?

00:34:31.532 --> 00:34:36.252
They are involved, actually. So HBCU, Benedict College, and Howard were part

00:34:36.252 --> 00:34:40.612
literally of our founding presidents, right? Two of the 11 presidents have been part of that work.

00:34:40.792 --> 00:34:44.572
And so they continue. I would love to have more.

00:34:45.132 --> 00:34:50.392
Part of our work is actually raising some funding to be able to support institutions to do this work.

00:34:50.732 --> 00:34:54.232
You know, it's one thing for Ivy Leagues, elite liberal arts schools,

00:34:54.412 --> 00:34:57.192
large state universities who have access to more funding.

00:34:57.212 --> 00:35:01.012
They still have to get funding for it and so on. It's another thing for,

00:35:01.252 --> 00:35:06.152
frankly, minority-serving institutions and HBCUs who are in a much more cash-strapped situation.

00:35:06.372 --> 00:35:09.712
So I take it as my responsibility, and we have been raising funding,

00:35:09.872 --> 00:35:13.552
to be able to support those institutions that want to do this but may not have

00:35:13.552 --> 00:35:15.852
all the resources like some of our other partners.

00:35:15.852 --> 00:35:21.532
So I think that that's really the challenge because from an intention perspective,

00:35:21.892 --> 00:35:26.572
all these presidents understand, especially with the historical institutions,

00:35:27.032 --> 00:35:29.052
just how important it is to develop citizens.

00:35:29.052 --> 00:35:33.512
They have a public good responsibility, and they've had that since their charters.

00:35:33.672 --> 00:35:35.772
So that's not the hard part of selling this.

00:35:36.632 --> 00:35:39.992
So I know you probably get most of your money through grants and stuff,

00:35:40.132 --> 00:35:43.332
but people can go to the website and donate, right?

00:35:43.592 --> 00:35:47.372
That's right. They can as well. And if you want to learn more about our college

00:35:47.372 --> 00:35:52.152
president's work, the other website that we have is literally collegepresidents.org.

00:35:52.312 --> 00:35:55.892
And that's focused just on the college president's work, because at Citizens

00:35:55.892 --> 00:35:59.852
and Scholars, we We also do work to support young people directly who want to

00:35:59.852 --> 00:36:03.292
do, Erik, what you and I were talking about earlier, which is make change in their community.

00:36:04.132 --> 00:36:09.392
Right. So the reason why I'm stressing that is this is the holiday season now,

00:36:09.552 --> 00:36:11.072
and this is when people want to give.

00:36:11.352 --> 00:36:15.932
And if you need something to write off on your taxes, Citizens and Scholars

00:36:15.932 --> 00:36:21.672
might be a good donation for you. Thank you so much. Raj, thank you for coming on, brother.

00:36:21.872 --> 00:36:26.732
I greatly appreciate that. And again, I wish you and your family an enjoyable

00:36:26.732 --> 00:36:30.312
and relaxing holiday season. Thank you. Same to you. It's been an honor.

00:36:30.792 --> 00:36:32.872
All right, guys, we'll catch you all on the other side.

00:36:54.326 --> 00:36:59.506
It's time for my next guest, Howard Yaruss. Howard Yaruss is an economist,

00:36:59.766 --> 00:37:04.826
professor, attorney, businessman, and activist who has taught a variety of courses

00:37:04.826 --> 00:37:08.886
on economics and business and currently teaches at New York University.

00:37:09.126 --> 00:37:13.246
Prior to teaching, he served as executive vice president and general counsel

00:37:13.246 --> 00:37:18.006
of Radian Group, one of the largest guarantors of debt in the world.

00:37:18.626 --> 00:37:23.246
Yaruss graduated from Brown University, studied at the London School of Economics,

00:37:23.386 --> 00:37:27.606
and earned a law degree from the University of Pennsylvania. He lives in Manhattan.

00:37:27.966 --> 00:37:33.326
He is the author of Understandable Economics, because understanding our economy

00:37:33.326 --> 00:37:36.246
is easier than you think and more important than you know.

00:37:36.526 --> 00:37:42.546
So we're going to pick his brain a little bit, since he wants us to understand

00:37:42.546 --> 00:37:45.726
economics, and talk a little bit about this book.

00:37:45.906 --> 00:37:49.866
So ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest.

00:37:50.046 --> 00:37:54.646
On this podcast, Howard Yaruss. Music.

00:38:06.803 --> 00:38:09.663
Sir you doing good great how are you I'm doing

00:38:09.663 --> 00:38:12.763
fine I want to wish you holiday greetings

00:38:12.763 --> 00:38:15.623
as far as thanksgiving is concerned for you

00:38:15.623 --> 00:38:18.343
and your family thank you and i wish the same to

00:38:18.343 --> 00:38:23.263
you thank you sir and this is an interesting time of the year for somebody with

00:38:23.263 --> 00:38:28.683
your background because this has been an interesting few years for someone with

00:38:28.683 --> 00:38:33.403
my background well this is true but you know this time of year is you know folks

00:38:33.403 --> 00:38:37.203
are we're recording this before black Friday so So by the time this drops,

00:38:37.443 --> 00:38:40.503
people would have spent their money at this point.

00:38:40.883 --> 00:38:44.643
There'll still be other things like Cyber Monday, Giving Tuesday, all that.

00:38:44.823 --> 00:38:49.103
But, you know, this is when people start either making decisions about what

00:38:49.103 --> 00:38:53.443
they're going to buy for their family and friends or, you know,

00:38:53.503 --> 00:38:56.403
if they're going to donate money to charities and all that kind of stuff.

00:38:56.403 --> 00:39:01.103
So to have somebody on that has this background about economics,

00:39:01.103 --> 00:39:07.083
I always am fascinated by people that devote themselves to this kind of work.

00:39:07.103 --> 00:39:12.643
And I've had a number of economists on, but I didn't have one on to try to really.

00:39:12.983 --> 00:39:15.323
Well, I've had a professor on, but.

00:39:16.112 --> 00:39:20.832
I didn't have anybody to write a book and say, okay, this is this and this is

00:39:20.832 --> 00:39:24.012
that and dedicate themselves to doing that.

00:39:24.172 --> 00:39:26.652
So it's really an honor to have you to come on.

00:39:27.092 --> 00:39:31.772
Well, it's an honor to be here. I think it's the whole point of the book is

00:39:31.772 --> 00:39:34.112
that economics is about values.

00:39:34.432 --> 00:39:38.452
You know, there's no formula out there that'll tell you what the right tax rate is.

00:39:38.712 --> 00:39:42.912
There's no formula out there that will tell you how much help we should give the hungry people.

00:39:43.252 --> 00:39:47.692
This is all about values. It's not like physics. where you plug a bunch of numbers

00:39:47.692 --> 00:39:50.792
into a formula, boom, out comes an answer.

00:39:51.592 --> 00:39:57.452
And again, since it's all about values, people have to be informed because if

00:39:57.452 --> 00:40:01.632
they cede important policy decisions to the quote-unquote experts,

00:40:01.792 --> 00:40:03.912
or the economists, or the politicians,

00:40:04.232 --> 00:40:10.232
they may very well get policies if they find anything from bad to abhorrent.

00:40:10.432 --> 00:40:16.972
So my goal through this book is to get people to realize that they need to read

00:40:16.972 --> 00:40:21.652
up on this and then get involved because if they don't, people who they don't

00:40:21.652 --> 00:40:23.512
trust, who they may not like,

00:40:23.772 --> 00:40:26.032
who they may not have any respect for,

00:40:26.292 --> 00:40:29.612
may be making these decisions for them. That's the whole point of the book.

00:40:30.012 --> 00:40:35.052
All right. So normally what I try to do at the beginning is to do what we call

00:40:35.052 --> 00:40:36.412
these icebreaker exercises.

00:40:36.992 --> 00:40:41.312
So the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.

00:40:41.752 --> 00:40:48.892
It says, economics is an extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the

00:40:48.892 --> 00:40:53.152
nastiest of reasons will somehow work for the benefit of us all.

00:40:53.412 --> 00:40:54.712
What do you think about that quote?

00:40:55.392 --> 00:40:59.272
Naïve. One word, naïve. I always tell students, I teach in NYU,

00:41:00.032 --> 00:41:02.952
to the extent you can answer something in one word, that's it.

00:41:03.292 --> 00:41:08.012
Sometimes you can't, which is understandable. But that's, this is a time I could

00:41:08.012 --> 00:41:13.152
really, sum up my answer in one word, naïve. Yes, business is.

00:41:14.312 --> 00:41:16.952
When they try to make money, when they try to make a profit,

00:41:17.252 --> 00:41:19.272
they're incentivized to serve people.

00:41:19.372 --> 00:41:24.172
If I own a pizza shop, I'm going to try to make the best pizza possible so as

00:41:24.172 --> 00:41:26.692
to get the most customers.

00:41:26.752 --> 00:41:29.692
And I'm also going to try to charge a reasonable price.

00:41:29.872 --> 00:41:33.552
Because if I don't charge a reasonable price and I don't make a good slice of

00:41:33.552 --> 00:41:35.552
pizza, I'm not going to get a lot of customers.

00:41:36.032 --> 00:41:41.232
That is breaking down. When you're a big monopoly, and we have a lot of big

00:41:41.232 --> 00:41:44.592
monopolies now, you don't have to care as much about the customer.

00:41:44.852 --> 00:41:49.132
They can't really go anywhere else. If you want to do online shopping,

00:41:49.412 --> 00:41:51.232
you pretty much have to go to Amazon.

00:41:51.412 --> 00:41:55.632
If you want to go on a cab ride, you pretty much have to call Uber.

00:41:56.932 --> 00:42:01.052
The economy is much more concentrated now than it's out there.

00:42:01.052 --> 00:42:07.652
And so it sounds great in theory, and it works for small businesses most of

00:42:07.652 --> 00:42:10.772
the time, but it's less and less true.

00:42:10.892 --> 00:42:15.472
And I think that's a problem that we're really facing.

00:42:16.052 --> 00:42:20.452
Okay. All right. So now the next one is called 20 questions.

00:42:21.072 --> 00:42:25.012
So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

00:42:25.912 --> 00:42:30.852
12. What advice do you have for recognizing fake news?

00:42:32.299 --> 00:42:35.019
That's a very good question, and I'll tell you why I'm laughing.

00:42:35.239 --> 00:42:39.239
Because I read the news these days, and it seems fake.

00:42:39.539 --> 00:42:45.719
And then I do a Google search, and I realize it's true. I read a few bloggers every morning.

00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:47.979
Paul Krugman, Hedda Cox Richardson.

00:42:48.379 --> 00:42:52.919
And some of the things they say just seem incredible. They seem hard to believe.

00:42:53.259 --> 00:42:59.759
But then I look them up, and they're true. So how do I separate what's true from fake?

00:42:59.759 --> 00:43:07.239
Like, I guess I'm looking back on what I actually do. I do some Google searches

00:43:07.239 --> 00:43:09.299
and see whether it's in fact true.

00:43:09.379 --> 00:43:14.119
And if I could find credible sources to back it up, I assume it's true.

00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:18.419
If I can't find credible sources to back it up, I assume it's not true.

00:43:18.859 --> 00:43:22.639
And so that's what I do. I don't take anything at face value because there's

00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:28.579
so much crazy stuff going on these days that I'm very skeptical.

00:43:28.579 --> 00:43:32.999
But what I do is I do a Google search, and if I see it mentioned in a couple

00:43:32.999 --> 00:43:36.179
of legitimate sources, I assume it's true.

00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:42.879
If I have a hard time finding some kind of support for it, I assume it's not true.

00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:48.819
Yeah. All right. It's a lot of work. Yeah. Yeah, it is. In this day and age,

00:43:48.939 --> 00:43:51.339
it's a lot of work because we get a lot of information.

00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:56.639
You start off your book with this quote from Einstein. If you can't explain

00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:59.199
it simply, you don't understand it well enough.

00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:03.659
What was your motivating factor to take what you understand about economics

00:44:03.659 --> 00:44:05.219
to write a book for the masses?

00:44:06.552 --> 00:44:11.052
Well, it goes back to that quote you first gave me. There was a somewhat selfish motivation for it.

00:44:11.312 --> 00:44:16.592
I see a lot of horrible policies being implemented by our government.

00:44:16.912 --> 00:44:20.832
And I think the only way it's going to get better is if people,

00:44:21.012 --> 00:44:27.412
one, became more informed, and two, asserted themselves based on that information.

00:44:27.752 --> 00:44:33.692
I just think we've seeded a lot of important policy decisions that are not the

00:44:33.692 --> 00:44:38.192
kind of decisions that are made by a formula, the kind of decisions that are

00:44:38.192 --> 00:44:41.032
based on values, on judgments, on what you think is fair.

00:44:41.512 --> 00:44:48.912
And by recoiling at the thought of economics, when people hear about economics or tax, they back off.

00:44:49.112 --> 00:44:53.812
They think it's something with a lot of math, something that they can't understand,

00:44:54.012 --> 00:44:58.452
something that experts need to weigh in on. No, that's not true.

00:44:59.252 --> 00:45:01.732
They need to get involved in these

00:45:01.732 --> 00:45:04.672
issues or else, as I said at the very beginning of this conversation.

00:45:05.152 --> 00:45:09.952
People are going to make decisions that they may really not like.

00:45:10.072 --> 00:45:13.732
And the only way to protect yourself against that is to get involved.

00:45:13.832 --> 00:45:18.392
And I have this optimistic belief that the more people that got involved in

00:45:18.392 --> 00:45:22.152
these issues, the more people that are serving themselves, the better off involved.

00:45:23.233 --> 00:45:28.873
So why do you have that belief? Why do you believe that people truly want to understand economics?

00:45:29.353 --> 00:45:34.853
I don't think they truly want to understand economics. I'm saying selfishly,

00:45:34.973 --> 00:45:37.033
I want them to understand economics.

00:45:37.273 --> 00:45:39.453
For instance, this is a very simple thing.

00:45:39.793 --> 00:45:44.113
The tax code has special lower rates for investment income.

00:45:44.373 --> 00:45:48.093
Who earns investment income? Primarily wealthy people. In other words,

00:45:48.253 --> 00:45:54.673
I'll say it this way, wage income is almost always taxed at a higher rate than investment income.

00:45:55.133 --> 00:46:00.433
Fact. Wages are primarily earned by average people. Investment income is primarily

00:46:00.433 --> 00:46:02.093
earned by wealthy people.

00:46:02.373 --> 00:46:06.293
Warren Buffett, one of the five richest men in the country, has said he pays

00:46:06.293 --> 00:46:08.613
a lower tax rate than his secretary.

00:46:09.113 --> 00:46:14.793
Why? Because he earns his income through investments, and she earns it through wages.

00:46:17.173 --> 00:46:22.253
Now, I honestly believe if more people were involved in that issue,

00:46:22.393 --> 00:46:26.673
we wouldn't have that situation. I think most Americans would feel that's not fair.

00:46:26.853 --> 00:46:32.013
So why do we have it? Because most Americans have ceded the decisions on tax

00:46:32.013 --> 00:46:38.733
rates to people who primarily either earn more from investment income than wage

00:46:38.733 --> 00:46:40.513
income, and more importantly,

00:46:40.953 --> 00:46:44.393
who rely on campaign donors.

00:46:44.793 --> 00:46:48.293
Who earn more through investment income than wage income.

00:46:48.553 --> 00:46:55.313
And so there's that bubble of people who are lucky enough to live off investment

00:46:55.313 --> 00:47:00.493
income who are disproportionately represented in making these decisions.

00:47:00.773 --> 00:47:02.593
And I think the only way to...

00:47:04.059 --> 00:47:09.279
What I have to believe is most people's values is to have a level playing field,

00:47:09.419 --> 00:47:10.839
at least a level playing field.

00:47:10.939 --> 00:47:14.479
I think you can make a legitimate argument that investment income should be

00:47:14.479 --> 00:47:16.459
taxed at a higher rate than wage income.

00:47:16.659 --> 00:47:21.939
But the only way you're going to get some steps in what I think is the more

00:47:21.939 --> 00:47:27.139
equitable and fair direction is by getting more people involved in these decisions

00:47:27.139 --> 00:47:31.319
and not leaving them to the politicians and their gain donors.

00:47:31.839 --> 00:47:34.959
Yeah. All right. Let me read a passage from your book.

00:47:35.459 --> 00:47:39.459
This may be your first attempt to understand what drives our economy,

00:47:39.999 --> 00:47:42.919
since most Americans never take a course in economics.

00:47:43.219 --> 00:47:46.939
Those of you who have taken a course in economics.

00:47:47.900 --> 00:47:54.240
Well, let me start over. Those of you who have taken an economics course were

00:47:54.240 --> 00:47:58.360
probably confronted with a bewildering way of jargon, formulas,

00:47:58.740 --> 00:48:02.540
graphs, and assumptions that seem to have little connection to reality,

00:48:02.780 --> 00:48:07.900
leaving you with a limited understanding at best of these issues. That would be me.

00:48:08.220 --> 00:48:12.640
Most books on the subject take the same dry technical approach,

00:48:12.860 --> 00:48:16.700
quickly sapping the interests of all but the most determined readers.

00:48:16.700 --> 00:48:21.920
I know this because I was one of the determined ones who studied economics and

00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:27.640
slogged through many courses and countless books on the subject. Why was I so determined?

00:48:28.100 --> 00:48:32.560
I grew up in Brooklyn in a family that often faced financial difficulties.

00:48:32.820 --> 00:48:37.440
I started working in my early teens and spent a good part of my time as a young

00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:39.760
adult helping my father in his grocery store.

00:48:40.420 --> 00:48:43.860
I became painfully aware of the great disparities in education,

00:48:44.220 --> 00:48:47.120
security, material well-being, and opportunity.

00:48:47.260 --> 00:48:51.640
I saw how those inequalities caused some people to become cynical,

00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:56.140
resigned, or indifferent, while others became determined to overcome them.

00:48:56.180 --> 00:49:01.700
I became fascinated by them, and I felt that if I wanted to live in a more just

00:49:01.700 --> 00:49:05.340
and productive society, I first had to understand how it worked.

00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:10.360
I believe the same is true for you. So my question out of that is.

00:49:11.189 --> 00:49:15.709
Why did your awareness of disparities impact you so profoundly?

00:49:16.329 --> 00:49:19.449
That's a good question. And I've thought about that a lot.

00:49:19.589 --> 00:49:24.529
I've done a lot of interviews in connection with this book. And as you pointed

00:49:24.529 --> 00:49:28.809
out from the introduction, I worked in my father's grocery store,

00:49:28.949 --> 00:49:32.569
which was remarkably unprofitable.

00:49:32.769 --> 00:49:36.569
He had people working in the grocery store more than he did.

00:49:36.569 --> 00:49:41.909
But the point I want to make about the grocery store is he had a sort of soft heart.

00:49:42.129 --> 00:49:46.669
He hired people to work as stock, quote-unquote, boys who were in their 70s,

00:49:46.829 --> 00:49:52.449
who were having a hard time making ends meet because they weren't able to save

00:49:52.449 --> 00:49:55.469
up enough money during their lifetime.

00:49:55.929 --> 00:50:02.129
He had people who had criminal backgrounds. He had people who were dropping out of high school.

00:50:02.849 --> 00:50:06.529
And I saw all these people sort of heading to a dead end.

00:50:06.789 --> 00:50:11.789
And then I went off to Brown University, which was an Ivy League school where

00:50:11.789 --> 00:50:13.709
people had so much privilege.

00:50:14.009 --> 00:50:16.369
So I went from one extreme to the other.

00:50:17.229 --> 00:50:20.649
And there were bright people who worked in my father's store,

00:50:20.789 --> 00:50:22.669
and obviously people at Brown.

00:50:22.769 --> 00:50:26.609
But the disparities really stuck with me.

00:50:26.729 --> 00:50:34.349
It really made an impression on me. And so I just wanted to understand it better

00:50:34.349 --> 00:50:37.349
because, as I said in the book, as you read it,

00:50:37.729 --> 00:50:41.609
the only way you could really improve a system, if you want to provide more

00:50:41.609 --> 00:50:43.249
opportunity to people, if you

00:50:43.249 --> 00:50:48.849
want more equality, you have to really understand how this all came about.

00:50:48.849 --> 00:50:52.969
And so it's something that has fascinated me to this day.

00:50:53.149 --> 00:50:57.109
And again, it motivated the book, because I think if more people were involved

00:50:57.109 --> 00:51:02.589
in these issues, we'd probably get a more equitable, more fair outcome than we currently have.

00:51:03.009 --> 00:51:05.689
So let me dig into that a little more.

00:51:06.742 --> 00:51:10.662
Because you said some people look at those and become cynical.

00:51:10.942 --> 00:51:15.182
And I've known some people who have grown up, you know, either,

00:51:15.182 --> 00:51:21.282
you know, working class or poor, and they get an opportunity to go to an Ivy

00:51:21.282 --> 00:51:23.902
League or a top university and all that stuff.

00:51:24.282 --> 00:51:28.702
And they kind of, you know, now that they've, quote unquote,

00:51:28.942 --> 00:51:31.842
made it, as the Jefferson say, we done moved on up. Right.

00:51:32.342 --> 00:51:38.142
They don't have that sensitivity. They deal with their family members.

00:51:38.282 --> 00:51:44.542
They'll deal with friends, but they don't have that. They don't have that compassion.

00:51:45.102 --> 00:51:51.522
Why do you think that your experience gave you compassion instead of being cynical?

00:51:52.807 --> 00:51:57.687
That's an extremely good question, for which I unfortunately do not have a good answer.

00:51:57.827 --> 00:52:04.127
I was always fascinated during the Nazi regime in Germany, how people from identical

00:52:04.127 --> 00:52:09.667
backgrounds, some of them collaborated with the Nazis in killing innocent people,

00:52:09.887 --> 00:52:12.247
and others, identical backgrounds,

00:52:12.607 --> 00:52:15.647
literally risked their lives to save people.

00:52:15.727 --> 00:52:20.587
It's the same thing in the Antebellum South. who some people from identical backgrounds

00:52:20.587 --> 00:52:25.747
who were tyrannical slaveholders and other people, they may not have rebelled

00:52:25.747 --> 00:52:27.047
against the system, but they left.

00:52:27.187 --> 00:52:31.707
They went to the North and said, I can't, this is not a life for me. What causes that?

00:52:32.287 --> 00:52:37.547
I don't know. I study economics, not psychology. I wish I had more insight into that.

00:52:37.947 --> 00:52:41.327
But it is fascinating.

00:52:41.327 --> 00:52:45.287
And to the extent your listeners think about it, maybe they'll have some insight.

00:52:45.287 --> 00:52:49.227
But one of the beliefs of the book is if you give some basic knowledge,

00:52:49.607 --> 00:52:54.107
some basic facts, most people have good common sense and they can get some insight

00:52:54.107 --> 00:52:55.487
by just thinking about things.

00:52:55.747 --> 00:53:00.807
And I urge your viewers to think about that because I'm sure your listeners

00:53:00.807 --> 00:53:03.267
have encountered that in life.

00:53:03.507 --> 00:53:07.827
People from identical backgrounds and some people rise to the occasion and some

00:53:07.827 --> 00:53:11.627
people just consistently disappoint.

00:53:11.887 --> 00:53:17.007
And why that happens, I don't know. But it is a fascinating phenomenon.

00:53:17.387 --> 00:53:22.207
Well, Howard, I'm not a psychologist either, but, you know, as far as you go,

00:53:22.427 --> 00:53:29.087
I think the main reason why you chose that route is because you've got a good heart and you have...

00:53:30.220 --> 00:53:35.420
You've embraced your humanity, and that's something that a lot of us don't do,

00:53:35.540 --> 00:53:38.060
whether it's in politics, economics, law, whatever.

00:53:38.540 --> 00:53:45.700
And so I would say in your case, you embraced your humanity because not only

00:53:45.700 --> 00:53:52.240
did you decide, well, I'm going to do something about it, you've actually taken some steps.

00:53:52.260 --> 00:53:54.460
And one of these things is this book that you've written.

00:53:54.620 --> 00:53:58.320
So I'm grateful that you chose not to be cynical.

00:54:00.220 --> 00:54:05.160
Well, thank you. Thank you. All right. And you as well for having me on the show. Yes, sir.

00:54:05.820 --> 00:54:10.520
So let's talk about some things that are in the news that you kind of break

00:54:10.520 --> 00:54:17.520
down in the book, but just kind of pick your brain about some issues that are out there that,

00:54:18.445 --> 00:54:21.285
You know, they hear about it and they're not quite sure.

00:54:21.505 --> 00:54:26.505
One of the things that befuddles me, and I'll tell you a quick story.

00:54:26.745 --> 00:54:34.605
So a college classmate of mine sent me a message and it was some kind of thing

00:54:34.605 --> 00:54:40.745
where she was trying to get me to invest in crypto and all that and put in some money and it came out.

00:54:40.925 --> 00:54:48.125
And then, you know, so I have, you know, I basically told her this sounds like a scam to me. So I'm out.

00:54:48.445 --> 00:54:51.245
But for some reason, I have crypto.

00:54:51.925 --> 00:54:56.065
I have some crypto on me, but I don't use it. It's just sitting there.

00:54:56.345 --> 00:55:04.045
So just kind of, you know, explain why is crypto different than the dollar?

00:55:04.385 --> 00:55:13.185
And I mean, what is it and why do people feel that this is better than a dollar?

00:55:13.825 --> 00:55:18.205
I mean, you know, is it backed by assets? I mean, I've just...

00:55:18.685 --> 00:55:20.965
All I know is there's just some kind of algorithm.

00:55:22.505 --> 00:55:27.345
Well, you pretty much know everything. I make this analogy in the book that

00:55:27.345 --> 00:55:30.685
to understand crypto is...

00:55:31.751 --> 00:55:35.611
It's like trying to understand how the printer gets the ink on a $20 bill.

00:55:35.831 --> 00:55:39.451
You don't need to know about the algorithm.

00:55:39.471 --> 00:55:44.671
You don't need to know about the technology. What you need to know, it's like virtual gold.

00:55:45.051 --> 00:55:51.411
It's something that only exists in cyberspace, and it's supposedly limited.

00:55:51.891 --> 00:55:55.851
Bitcoin is supposedly limited. I think it's to 22 million Bitcoins.

00:55:56.351 --> 00:55:59.351
Now, let me just add for a moment. if suddenly

00:55:59.351 --> 00:56:02.531
tomorrow another 22 million bitcoins appeared

00:56:02.531 --> 00:56:06.051
on the scene what are you going to do there's no 1-800 number

00:56:06.051 --> 00:56:11.071
there's no customer service to call up to complain even when there is you know

00:56:11.071 --> 00:56:16.231
when you're when your bank has a 1-800 number and a custom a customer service

00:56:16.231 --> 00:56:19.951
number you know it's not it's kind of frustrating when you call them the thing

00:56:19.951 --> 00:56:24.411
how frustrating it would be if there's no 1-800 number,

00:56:24.531 --> 00:56:29.031
no customer service and actually no actual business to call.

00:56:29.371 --> 00:56:32.891
So what it is, it's just made up out of thin air.

00:56:33.071 --> 00:56:39.291
But in a way it is, one way it is like the dollar. The dollar is also made up out of thin air.

00:56:39.471 --> 00:56:41.891
In the 19th, for most of history.

00:56:43.085 --> 00:56:47.425
U.S. currency and most currencies were backed by precious metals.

00:56:47.985 --> 00:56:52.545
That's not true since—that's in my lifetime, since the early 1970s.

00:56:52.825 --> 00:56:57.105
So it's just like the dollar, it's something made up out of thin air.

00:56:57.585 --> 00:57:01.025
And why does it have value? Because people are willing to give it back.

00:57:01.285 --> 00:57:05.565
I do have one prediction, and I don't—I typically don't make predictions.

00:57:05.745 --> 00:57:10.405
But maybe I'll back off from calling this prediction. I'll just say that most

00:57:10.405 --> 00:57:14.205
assets approach their real value in the long run.

00:57:14.765 --> 00:57:19.025
That assets that are undervalued, you've seen this in real estate.

00:57:19.545 --> 00:57:24.445
They don't stay undervalued for that long. Assets that are overvalued don't stay overvalued.

00:57:24.985 --> 00:57:28.705
And what's the true value of Bitcoin? Well, it's useful if you want to have

00:57:28.705 --> 00:57:34.965
someone kidnapped or you want to extort money from someone. But it doesn't really have much use.

00:57:35.145 --> 00:57:38.685
As I pointed out in a book, there was a Bitcoin conference in New York.

00:57:38.785 --> 00:57:43.685
It only took dollars for the registration fee. It wouldn't take Bitcoin.

00:57:44.065 --> 00:57:50.285
So I think in the long run, especially if the Congress and the White House changes

00:57:50.285 --> 00:57:54.145
and they start to regulate it, it's going to approach its real value.

00:57:54.685 --> 00:57:59.285
You and I can speculate as to what that is, but it's nowhere near what it's trending at now.

00:57:59.865 --> 00:58:01.845
Yeah, the only, real quick, the only...

00:58:02.566 --> 00:58:07.246
Thing I equated to, and I don't know if you're, well, you should remember because,

00:58:07.446 --> 00:58:10.446
you know, it was, you know, I liked that Fingerhut, right?

00:58:10.886 --> 00:58:16.046
So it was like Fingerhut, it's like you have credit with them,

00:58:16.226 --> 00:58:17.986
but it doesn't apply anywhere else.

00:58:18.106 --> 00:58:23.526
You can't use Fingerhut credit at Macy's. You can't use Fingerhut credit at Saks Fifth Avenue.

00:58:23.726 --> 00:58:27.566
But, you know, on Fingerhut, you can buy anything you want. And that's kind

00:58:27.566 --> 00:58:31.486
of the mindset I have with crypto. Is that kind of too basic or?

00:58:32.566 --> 00:58:37.946
I think it's really not even that much, simply because what can you buy with crypto?

00:58:38.526 --> 00:58:45.126
There's really, again, if you want a ransom or some kind of scam, it's useful.

00:58:45.486 --> 00:58:49.646
But literally, Fingerhut, I'm not familiar with it, presumably had some legitimate

00:58:49.646 --> 00:58:51.206
goods you could buy with the credit.

00:58:51.686 --> 00:58:55.586
I can't think of any legitimate goods you can buy with the credit.

00:58:55.746 --> 00:58:59.346
Furthermore, what advantage does it have over the US dollar?

00:58:59.346 --> 00:59:04.566
You know it's electronic but so is most dollars if you think about it uh when

00:59:04.566 --> 00:59:09.966
you pay your credit card you put a giant pile of cash in the envelope and nail

00:59:09.966 --> 00:59:17.426
it to the credit card it's all so that i i really think it's it's something that is is.

00:59:18.518 --> 00:59:22.518
There's likely to be some kind of trash coming at some point.

00:59:22.518 --> 00:59:25.618
It's a question of when and not if, I think.

00:59:26.218 --> 00:59:31.558
Yeah. All right. So let's get to our president's favorite word,

00:59:31.738 --> 00:59:33.418
which is tariffs, right?

00:59:33.938 --> 00:59:39.598
So a myth that you wanted to address was that foreigners pay tariffs.

00:59:39.838 --> 00:59:42.218
Is it true that foreigners pay tariffs?

00:59:42.578 --> 00:59:46.238
Well, first of all, let's define tariffs. I think, again, this is if people

00:59:46.238 --> 00:59:50.058
have some very basic knowledge, they could figure this stuff out on their own.

00:59:50.318 --> 00:59:51.998
What are tariffs? Three words.

00:59:52.418 --> 00:59:55.458
For one, there's three. Tax on imports.

00:59:55.778 --> 01:00:01.198
There's sales tax on imports. And I think it's a real irony that the president,

01:00:01.358 --> 01:00:06.798
the president of the White House, who claims to love low tariffs, says low taxes.

01:00:07.198 --> 01:00:11.898
His favorite word is a tax. A tariff is a tax on imports.

01:00:12.498 --> 01:00:17.118
Who pays them? Well, there's barely an the IRS in the United States,

01:00:17.298 --> 01:00:21.338
given the cuts they've made to the IRS, but I can tell you with absolute certainty,

01:00:21.338 --> 01:00:25.998
there's no IRS or taxing authority for the United States abroad.

01:00:27.178 --> 01:00:31.438
So the foreigners are not paying it.

01:00:31.598 --> 01:00:35.298
But there are some people who claim, well, they're just reducing their prices.

01:00:35.658 --> 01:00:41.878
Well, that's not true. You can see what the prices foreigners are charging for

01:00:41.878 --> 01:00:44.358
their goods because they have to declare them at the border.

01:00:44.678 --> 01:00:49.798
That's the price upon which they put the tax. That's the price upon which they put the tariff.

01:00:50.198 --> 01:00:53.358
Have the prices gone down by the amount of the tax?

01:00:53.598 --> 01:00:58.298
No. There's data on this. They've gone up by 1% since the taxes were on post.

01:00:58.678 --> 01:01:02.878
So the foreigners are not paying the tariffs. In theory, they're not paying them.

01:01:02.998 --> 01:01:07.078
And as a practical matter, there's evidence they're not paying them. So who's paying them?

01:01:07.578 --> 01:01:12.198
Basically, people have analyzed this. Clark's going to consumers.

01:01:12.418 --> 01:01:17.958
In part, large companies are just eating part of it. They're accepting a slightly smaller profit.

01:01:18.338 --> 01:01:22.138
How much longer they're willing to cut into their profits is question.

01:01:22.138 --> 01:01:25.618
Because they were hoping, you know, the tariffs change every other hour.

01:01:25.878 --> 01:01:28.758
They were hoping that these would just be temporary.

01:01:29.218 --> 01:01:34.218
As the tariffs seem more permanent, they're probably going to just pass through

01:01:34.218 --> 01:01:35.998
the whole tariff to the consumer.

01:01:36.218 --> 01:01:40.398
Bottom line, the end of the story, it's consumers are paying the tariffs.

01:01:40.558 --> 01:01:42.698
But I just want to add one more thing.

01:01:43.138 --> 01:01:47.878
People say, well, foreign goods became more expensive. It's much worse than

01:01:47.878 --> 01:01:49.458
that. I'll tell you what.

01:01:50.178 --> 01:01:57.578
If you're indifferent, if you like French wine, let's say, and it costs $20

01:01:57.578 --> 01:02:01.458
a bottle, and it's a California wine, which costs $20 a bottle,

01:02:01.758 --> 01:02:02.918
you're going to buy the French wine.

01:02:03.755 --> 01:02:07.675
But then they stick the tariff on the French wine, 30%. So it goes to $26.

01:02:08.175 --> 01:02:11.795
It's too much money. I'll buy the California wine for $20.

01:02:12.855 --> 01:02:19.115
Put yourself in the shoes of the California vintner, the California winery owner.

01:02:19.395 --> 01:02:22.915
He's going to say, my competition's price just went from $20 to $26.

01:02:23.195 --> 01:02:28.735
I can bump up my price to $24 and still increase my customer base.

01:02:29.115 --> 01:02:34.475
So that's the point I'm trying to make. When all the goods that our domestic

01:02:34.475 --> 01:02:38.535
manufacturers compete with go up, they can raise their prices,

01:02:38.735 --> 01:02:43.775
maybe not as much as the full cost of the tariff, but they have leeway.

01:02:43.895 --> 01:02:47.275
They have room to raise their prices and still be competitive.

01:02:47.515 --> 01:02:51.335
So bottom, bottom line, tariffs raise prices for everyone.

01:02:51.335 --> 01:02:58.255
And so it's it's it's really troubling to me that someone who claims to be against

01:02:58.255 --> 01:03:03.935
taxation just imposed this massive tax on American consumers. All right.

01:03:04.475 --> 01:03:10.915
Here's a myth. The national debt is an existential threat to our nation.

01:03:12.073 --> 01:03:16.933
Well, a lot of politicians try to scare people that the 30-some-odd trillion-dollar

01:03:16.933 --> 01:03:22.953
debt, and that's a big, scary number, that it's going to sink us economically.

01:03:23.333 --> 01:03:27.173
$30 trillion is a number that, with all due respect to you and your listeners,

01:03:27.573 --> 01:03:30.833
I don't think they can get their head around. I can't get my head around.

01:03:31.013 --> 01:03:36.953
I remember there was a congressman I was listening to, and he mentioned something

01:03:36.953 --> 01:03:42.673
about costing X billion dollars. And someone asked, do you mean X million or X billion?

01:03:43.013 --> 01:03:47.393
And the congressman didn't know. That's like saying I had a great sandwich for lunch.

01:03:47.553 --> 01:03:51.833
I don't remember if it was $10 or $10,000, but it was really good.

01:03:52.193 --> 01:03:56.793
The point is that people can't get their heads around these massive numbers.

01:03:56.933 --> 01:04:02.073
So what I do in the book is I divide it by the number of Americans.

01:04:02.293 --> 01:04:08.473
And we get a debt of about $89,000 per American. Now, that's a number we could

01:04:08.473 --> 01:04:09.533
all get our heads around.

01:04:10.193 --> 01:04:16.393
Is that an existential threat? Well, everyone who went to medical school has a debt like that.

01:04:16.593 --> 01:04:18.933
Virtually anyone who bought a house has a debt like that.

01:04:19.253 --> 01:04:21.673
Virtually anyone who started a business has a debt like that.

01:04:22.113 --> 01:04:27.013
So, again, you shouldn't look to quote-unquote experts for answers.

01:04:27.193 --> 01:04:33.613
You should try to get some basic knowledge, like the debt is $89,000 per person,

01:04:33.653 --> 01:04:35.333
and then think about it for yourself.

01:04:35.333 --> 01:04:42.773
If you use that debt if someone used $89,000 of debt to postpone all their expenses,

01:04:42.913 --> 01:04:46.553
to go on some extraordinary vacation or to feed an addiction yeah,

01:04:46.613 --> 01:04:50.773
it's a terrible idea but if they use it to go to medical school to start a business

01:04:50.773 --> 01:04:55.853
or to invest in their child's education, it's a great idea so it really comes down to.

01:04:56.796 --> 01:05:01.536
Seeing that it's not a crazy number, trillion dollars, no one can get their head around.

01:05:01.776 --> 01:05:06.356
$89,000 is a number we can all get our heads around. And then deciding,

01:05:06.496 --> 01:05:08.196
is Congress using the money wisely?

01:05:08.596 --> 01:05:12.476
And if they're using it wisely, it's fine. It's a rich question.

01:05:15.276 --> 01:05:19.616
It's probably not a good idea. So that's something people have to think through for themselves.

01:05:20.256 --> 01:05:26.576
Yeah. All right. Last one we're going to do is Social Security will run out of money.

01:05:27.376 --> 01:05:31.116
Okay. Do you ever worry about the State Department running out of money?

01:05:31.296 --> 01:05:35.696
Do you ever worry about the Pentagon running out of money? There are government programs.

01:05:35.956 --> 01:05:40.236
If the Congress allocates money, they don't run out of money.

01:05:40.416 --> 01:05:43.196
If Congress doesn't allocate money, they do run out of money.

01:05:43.316 --> 01:05:45.796
It's like anything else. It's a scare tactic.

01:05:46.476 --> 01:05:51.956
It's like a $30-some-odd trillion debt, which really does sound scary.

01:05:51.956 --> 01:05:56.936
When you think of it on a per-person basis, it's a number you can get your head around.

01:05:57.196 --> 01:06:00.576
Same thing with Social Security. It's a government program.

01:06:01.056 --> 01:06:06.356
It's a very expensive government program, but it's a question of politics and not economics.

01:06:07.016 --> 01:06:13.016
And it's often by asking, by politicians asking, is Social Security going bankrupt?

01:06:13.316 --> 01:06:14.956
They're just trying to scare people.

01:06:15.536 --> 01:06:18.436
Again, it would be like asking, is the Pentagon going bankrupt?

01:06:18.436 --> 01:06:22.316
Then is every foreign country going to be able to invade America because we

01:06:22.316 --> 01:06:23.796
no longer have a national defense?

01:06:23.996 --> 01:06:28.916
It's a question of priorities and not the ability.

01:06:29.116 --> 01:06:35.036
It's a question of will, of our desire to do something, and are we able to do something?

01:06:35.176 --> 01:06:39.116
So that's what I would say about Social Security. Right, so...

01:06:39.476 --> 01:06:44.316
If people want to get a hold of this book, which is called Understandable Economics,

01:06:44.316 --> 01:06:48.336
because understanding our economy is easier than you think and more important

01:06:48.336 --> 01:06:50.616
than you know, how can they get to the book?

01:06:50.696 --> 01:06:53.776
And if people want to reach out to you, how can they get to you?

01:06:54.736 --> 01:07:03.636
Great question. I have a website. It's howardyaruss.com, H-O-W-A-R-D-Y-A-R-U-S-S.com.

01:07:04.016 --> 01:07:05.236
Certainly, it's on Amazon.

01:07:05.836 --> 01:07:09.156
It's in most local bookstores, including Barnes & Noble's.

01:07:09.476 --> 01:07:12.856
If your local bookstore doesn't have it, they can easily get it.

01:07:12.976 --> 01:07:15.716
I encourage you to buy it from your local bookstore.

01:07:15.856 --> 01:07:17.876
Help those people stay in business.

01:07:18.076 --> 01:07:21.336
But again, if you want it easily overnight, it's definitely on Amazon.

01:07:22.216 --> 01:07:26.456
All right. Well, Howard Yaruss, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to do this.

01:07:26.716 --> 01:07:29.736
We could only really scratch the surface in the time that we had.

01:07:29.896 --> 01:07:35.416
But I think people get the gist of what your book is about.

01:07:35.416 --> 01:07:43.076
And hopefully it'll be required reading for a lot of folks just to navigate

01:07:43.076 --> 01:07:45.056
through what we're dealing with.

01:07:45.236 --> 01:07:48.136
And so I greatly appreciate you making an effort to write the book.

01:07:48.456 --> 01:07:50.856
And I appreciate you coming on the podcast.

01:07:51.736 --> 01:07:55.116
Thank you for having me. All right, guys. And we're going to catch you all on the other side.

01:08:09.625 --> 01:08:16.545
I want to thank Raj Vinnakota and Howard Yaruss for coming on the podcast.

01:08:17.385 --> 01:08:24.845
And it was very apparent that both of those gentlemen are excited about what they do.

01:08:25.905 --> 01:08:31.185
And there's a certain level of joy and satisfaction in what they're doing.

01:08:31.185 --> 01:08:37.885
And Howard trying to teach us about economics and just how to be better citizens.

01:08:37.885 --> 01:08:42.745
So Howard's approach is kind of like my approach with politics in that,

01:08:43.005 --> 01:08:47.625
you know, we're not trying to make you economics junkies no more than I'm trying

01:08:47.625 --> 01:08:48.845
to make you a political junkie.

01:08:50.025 --> 01:08:56.085
But if you understand basic concepts, then it'll help you make better decisions

01:08:56.085 --> 01:09:02.565
in your home and in politics, right?

01:09:03.185 --> 01:09:09.105
And then Raj, it's apparent the enthusiasm and joy that he shows in doing his

01:09:09.105 --> 01:09:12.745
work and his belief that we can do better,

01:09:13.165 --> 01:09:19.285
especially those folks who are involved in higher education and making sure

01:09:19.285 --> 01:09:27.545
that when students do want to have a voice, that they're given the opportunity to do it.

01:09:27.585 --> 01:09:31.365
And there's a better environment for that to happen.

01:09:32.405 --> 01:09:39.445
And that is a holistic plan. It's not just whenever an issue comes up, right?

01:09:40.005 --> 01:09:46.945
And, you know, I just greatly appreciate them for doing what they're doing.

01:09:46.945 --> 01:09:51.505
And of course, I'm humbled that they both came on the podcast.

01:09:51.505 --> 01:09:59.225
My heart's a little heavy because of what happened with the ambush of the two

01:09:59.225 --> 01:10:03.285
National Guard members in Washington, D.C.,

01:10:04.566 --> 01:10:09.446
something that you don't really anticipate nor that you wish would happen.

01:10:10.986 --> 01:10:20.386
My heart and my condolences go out to the families of those soldiers who were ambushed.

01:10:20.786 --> 01:10:23.566
One has passed away, the young lady.

01:10:24.746 --> 01:10:29.926
The young man is still fighting. And both of them were from West Virginia,

01:10:29.926 --> 01:10:35.466
which I have a family connection to and the fact that that's where my mom went to college.

01:10:36.246 --> 01:10:42.286
And to actually go to West Virginia and see the state personally and know how,

01:10:42.666 --> 01:10:48.286
even though I probably don't agree with 80% of the citizens as far as the way

01:10:48.286 --> 01:10:54.826
they vote, I do empathize with them as human beings and know how tight-knit a community it is.

01:10:57.266 --> 01:11:03.446
So in West Virginia, that means a lot when you lose somebody or somebody you

01:11:03.446 --> 01:11:05.266
care about is critically injured.

01:11:06.663 --> 01:11:11.003
And, you know, and through the history of coal mining and other things that

01:11:11.003 --> 01:11:16.483
have gone on there, it's you understand that it's hitting home pretty well,

01:11:16.583 --> 01:11:19.383
especially as the holidays have started.

01:11:19.623 --> 01:11:21.883
So I wish I wish those families well.

01:11:22.523 --> 01:11:31.423
And fortunately, you know, the shooter was caught alive and that person will

01:11:31.423 --> 01:11:33.743
go through the justice process.

01:11:33.743 --> 01:11:41.823
But something that angers me and bothers me more than the actual shooting is the reaction.

01:11:43.243 --> 01:11:48.683
And, you know, there's always pros and cons and stuff.

01:11:49.863 --> 01:11:54.223
And, you know, you can find redeeming qualities in people.

01:11:54.223 --> 01:12:05.043
But I don't have a stomach for the way that this administration operates.

01:12:05.603 --> 01:12:14.283
Never had much of one, but I just don't have any confidence at all in their

01:12:14.283 --> 01:12:17.263
competency or their ability to govern.

01:12:17.863 --> 01:12:25.283
Now, why do I say that? So the immediate reaction after the shooting was,

01:12:25.623 --> 01:12:28.183
we're going to put more troops on the ground.

01:12:29.243 --> 01:12:36.903
You know, I'm like, what are 500 more soldiers on the ground going to do,

01:12:37.083 --> 01:12:41.163
considering that the person who committed the crime has already been arrested?

01:12:42.563 --> 01:12:47.823
And it's been pretty apparent in the preliminary investigation that this person

01:12:47.823 --> 01:12:56.523
acted alone. Now, there was sound intelligence that this was the first wave of an attack, and.

01:12:58.111 --> 01:13:02.631
You know, and some other incidents that happened, this led to some unrest in

01:13:02.631 --> 01:13:09.471
the city, then I can understand making that kind of a decision. But,

01:13:10.903 --> 01:13:15.703
You know, otherwise, this is, you know, the old saying, like you're trying to

01:13:15.703 --> 01:13:17.263
kill a fly with a sledgehammer.

01:13:18.163 --> 01:13:21.123
And you've already captured the fly. Right.

01:13:22.323 --> 01:13:29.323
So that overreaction shows to me that these people are not competent and don't

01:13:29.323 --> 01:13:30.883
have a true ability to govern.

01:13:30.883 --> 01:13:38.143
And then the president went further to basically say that anybody that's part

01:13:38.143 --> 01:13:47.043
of the or would be eligible for the Afghanistan TPS program was just shutting it down.

01:13:47.043 --> 01:13:51.503
As a matter of fact, he went as far to say that he really doesn't want anybody

01:13:51.503 --> 01:13:56.463
from a quote-unquote third world country to immigrate to the United States anymore,

01:13:57.043 --> 01:14:02.443
which goes back to his first administration where he said he didn't want anybody

01:14:02.443 --> 01:14:03.563
from shithole countries.

01:14:03.863 --> 01:14:08.443
The same mindset, just change the language, right?

01:14:09.723 --> 01:14:12.783
And again, for what?

01:14:13.923 --> 01:14:22.863
So we're going to punish people who helped our soldiers in a war we shouldn't have been in.

01:14:23.383 --> 01:14:28.743
We're going to punish those people that are eligible to come over and get away

01:14:28.743 --> 01:14:30.663
from the Taliban. Right.

01:14:30.783 --> 01:14:37.003
You criticize President Biden for the withdrawal that you set up, by the way, Mr.

01:14:37.063 --> 01:14:38.323
President, you set that up in

01:14:38.323 --> 01:14:41.863
your first administration and then Biden was the one left to carry it out.

01:14:42.803 --> 01:14:47.323
And whether you think or anybody else thinks that it was carried out smoothly or not.

01:14:48.143 --> 01:14:52.503
He basically was following through on something that you had initiated because

01:14:52.503 --> 01:14:57.743
you were the one that had the folks at Camp David, the Taliban at Camp David.

01:14:58.683 --> 01:15:02.943
You were the one who met with these people and agreed to the timeline.

01:15:04.363 --> 01:15:06.963
And Biden did the best he could to honor it.

01:15:08.365 --> 01:15:13.785
And in the process, there were some people that should have been evacuated that were not.

01:15:14.505 --> 01:15:19.185
And so those people are still there, are still seeking it because one person

01:15:19.185 --> 01:15:22.665
commits a criminal act. We're going to punish everybody.

01:15:23.625 --> 01:15:25.485
That's what we call an overreaction.

01:15:26.565 --> 01:15:31.965
And people that overreact tend to be not competent when it comes to leadership.

01:15:32.725 --> 01:15:38.245
Because you don't want that in leadership. You don't want people that overreact. Right?

01:15:39.005 --> 01:15:45.505
And if we held that standard, then when black people get in charge,

01:15:45.765 --> 01:15:49.605
then every white person should go to jail for 400 years of oppression.

01:15:50.145 --> 01:15:52.205
But we don't operate like that.

01:15:52.845 --> 01:16:00.905
So, you know, we understand that individuals should be responsible for their

01:16:00.905 --> 01:16:04.245
acts and not punish an entire group of people.

01:16:04.905 --> 01:16:07.265
Right. Nonetheless.

01:16:08.978 --> 01:16:16.298
Just another example of where we are and why we have to do better in choosing

01:16:16.298 --> 01:16:25.518
people and why we have to do better in having people put into positions, right?

01:16:25.898 --> 01:16:33.198
We've got to do better in knowing not only who to select, but if we're chosen, what to do.

01:16:34.058 --> 01:16:38.438
You know, playing on people's fears is low-hanging fruit.

01:16:39.518 --> 01:16:46.298
Elevating people's hopes takes work. And it's pretty apparent that the current

01:16:46.298 --> 01:16:52.098
administration doesn't give a damn about hope at all, doesn't have a vision.

01:16:52.458 --> 01:16:56.758
They just want to scare people into keeping them in power.

01:16:57.958 --> 01:17:04.358
And that's not, despite all its faults, that's not what this country is about, right?

01:17:05.038 --> 01:17:10.278
It has always been based on the hope of liberty and freedom.

01:17:11.178 --> 01:17:17.898
Just watch the documentary on the American Revolution, and when you saw the

01:17:17.898 --> 01:17:24.178
Native Americans and the enslaved Africans picking sides,

01:17:25.218 --> 01:17:27.958
whether they were going to support the colonists or whether they were going

01:17:27.958 --> 01:17:34.618
to support the British in the war, it's based on that concept of liberty and freedom, right?

01:17:35.138 --> 01:17:39.598
The white colonists were making decisions themselves.

01:17:40.538 --> 01:17:46.858
Did they think that their lifestyle was better being under British rule or would

01:17:46.858 --> 01:17:48.138
it be better being independent?

01:17:48.978 --> 01:17:53.658
Which one gave them the most freedom and liberty to live the life they wanted to live.

01:17:54.358 --> 01:18:05.238
So the whole concept of this nation has been about liberty and freedom and hope, not about fear, right?

01:18:06.790 --> 01:18:09.770
What are your eyes telling you? What is your gut telling you?

01:18:10.410 --> 01:18:13.970
Not fear-mongering or overreacting.

01:18:14.990 --> 01:18:25.650
So I hate that this tragedy has led to more proof of how inept our leaders are,

01:18:26.090 --> 01:18:27.330
our current leadership.

01:18:27.890 --> 01:18:34.710
But as always, we have to take this as a moment where we can learn and take

01:18:34.710 --> 01:18:41.910
this as a moment of reflection and to make a commitment that we have to do better.

01:18:42.650 --> 01:18:46.150
Because nobody is talking about the motive of this shooter.

01:18:46.750 --> 01:18:54.670
He may have thought that because they wanted to shut the program down anyway

01:18:54.670 --> 01:19:01.510
that his relatives or somebody couldn't come over and decided to exact revenge.

01:19:02.350 --> 01:19:08.090
And fortunately, he ran into those two young people from West Virginia, right?

01:19:08.430 --> 01:19:12.390
And even more unfortunate, nobody was able to stop him before he carried it out.

01:19:13.170 --> 01:19:17.590
We don't know. The investigation is still going into that.

01:19:18.450 --> 01:19:23.090
And whether it was a right decision or a wrong decision, it was a decision.

01:19:23.870 --> 01:19:25.530
Talking about the policy.

01:19:26.350 --> 01:19:34.230
And any decision we make has consequences. But when you exist in a world where

01:19:34.230 --> 01:19:41.170
shame is not an option, then you don't weigh consequences.

01:19:41.550 --> 01:19:50.030
You don't weigh impact of your decisions. You just do stuff on impulse. You overreact.

01:19:51.010 --> 01:19:57.570
Admitting mistakes is not defeat or it doesn't make you less than a human being.

01:19:58.890 --> 01:20:05.850
Contemplating decisions doesn't make you weak makes you human makes you enlightened

01:20:05.850 --> 01:20:08.370
shows that you have compassion,

01:20:09.932 --> 01:20:15.492
administration doesn't have that, had a situation where the press secretary,

01:20:15.912 --> 01:20:19.712
one of her relatives, just got arrested by ICE.

01:20:20.332 --> 01:20:23.092
Her reaction? Oh, well.

01:20:23.632 --> 01:20:30.452
I remember we had passed this law dealing with the rise of meth.

01:20:30.632 --> 01:20:35.992
And, you know, we were increasing sentences and limiting what drugs people could

01:20:35.992 --> 01:20:37.732
buy over-the-counter and all this stuff.

01:20:38.472 --> 01:20:45.912
And so one of the members, later on, one of the member's grandchildren got caught up in that.

01:20:47.672 --> 01:20:53.132
And one-on-one, he reached out to me to see if I could, because he knew I had

01:20:53.132 --> 01:20:56.692
connections with law enforcement, and he wanted to see if there was anything

01:20:56.692 --> 01:20:58.832
I could do to help his grandson.

01:20:59.772 --> 01:21:06.372
And that it wasn't much I could do, but that was a natural reaction for somebody

01:21:06.372 --> 01:21:10.452
that voted for the bill and then turned around and realized,

01:21:10.752 --> 01:21:12.832
uh-oh, one of my folks got caught up in it.

01:21:13.432 --> 01:21:16.532
Is there any way I could help him? Right?

01:21:17.972 --> 01:21:23.292
And that shows compassion. Now, some people say, well, it's selfish,

01:21:23.552 --> 01:21:25.312
especially since he voted for legislation.

01:21:25.412 --> 01:21:27.832
Okay, you can judge him on that.

01:21:28.532 --> 01:21:33.712
But at that moment, I was looking at a grandfather who was concerned about his grandchild.

01:21:35.291 --> 01:21:43.391
I did what I could. But the press secretary for the White House, she's not doing it.

01:21:44.331 --> 01:21:49.411
As interconnected as they are, that relative could have been out on the street

01:21:49.411 --> 01:21:55.771
the next day if they gave a damn about other people, if they had compassion.

01:21:56.611 --> 01:22:01.651
They didn't make any effort. And I don't know if it was an image problem or

01:22:01.651 --> 01:22:03.131
whatever, but it was kind of like,

01:22:04.091 --> 01:22:09.711
If you knew about it and you're the press secretary, probably know how to do

01:22:09.711 --> 01:22:12.911
stuff to keep it away from the press, at least for a moment,

01:22:13.371 --> 01:22:16.831
at least long enough for that person to get situated.

01:22:18.111 --> 01:22:21.451
But if you don't give a damn, it is what it is.

01:22:22.251 --> 01:22:27.771
I'm not encouraging that kind of behavior. I'm just saying that these people

01:22:27.771 --> 01:22:33.811
have no compassion, it, not even to their own family, if it goes against the

01:22:33.811 --> 01:22:35.191
propaganda that they're pushing.

01:22:36.851 --> 01:22:43.491
Which brings me to Marjorie Taylor Greene, who I initially thought was going to serve out her term.

01:22:43.631 --> 01:22:47.831
And then I found out, no, no, she's leaving this January. So she's done.

01:22:48.751 --> 01:22:52.011
Now, I don't know what her future in politics is going to be.

01:22:52.551 --> 01:22:58.431
I think she's going to team up with Steve Bannon and just do the media thing.

01:22:59.191 --> 01:23:02.831
I don't know. You know, some people are thinking she might want to be president.

01:23:03.011 --> 01:23:06.271
The way she sounded was she was done with it because she felt betrayed.

01:23:07.111 --> 01:23:13.891
She said loyalty to the president is a one-way street. That's somebody that was hurt.

01:23:14.991 --> 01:23:19.491
Somebody that stuck their neck out politically to side with them.

01:23:19.791 --> 01:23:24.851
A true believer who now has been disillusioned, right?

01:23:26.391 --> 01:23:34.511
And, again, if they had compassion, they would have tried to figure out a way to keep her in the fold.

01:23:36.273 --> 01:23:43.413
It's like, well, if you go against me on one vote, one, then you're no good to me.

01:23:44.193 --> 01:23:47.393
You know, people have their points.

01:23:48.193 --> 01:23:55.313
You know, talk about it. There was one legislator in Mississippi that was a MAGA Republican.

01:23:55.953 --> 01:24:01.153
But any time they said you wanted to do something dealing with children,

01:24:01.653 --> 01:24:05.993
she would be the first one to say, what can I do to help? Right?

01:24:06.893 --> 01:24:12.173
Even if it went against what her party wanted, even if she was the only Republican

01:24:12.173 --> 01:24:16.573
to vote for legislation pertaining to that issue. She didn't care.

01:24:17.373 --> 01:24:22.273
That was an issue that meant something to her, and they just had to understand that.

01:24:22.913 --> 01:24:25.893
And to the Republican Party's credit in Mississippi, they did.

01:24:26.153 --> 01:24:29.313
And she wasn't punished for that, right?

01:24:30.973 --> 01:24:35.633
Initially, punishments were given out when you voted against something,

01:24:35.633 --> 01:24:40.213
But then compassion kind of kicked in and logic kind of kicked in and say,

01:24:40.333 --> 01:24:45.933
hey, look, you know, legislators are not going to always go with what the governor wants.

01:24:47.233 --> 01:24:51.473
Congressmen and women are not going to go with what the president wants all

01:24:51.473 --> 01:24:53.193
the time, even if they're the same party.

01:24:53.953 --> 01:24:56.493
That's just how this dynamic is supposed to work.

01:24:57.493 --> 01:25:03.893
And if you punish people for that, then so be it. Democrats get criticized because

01:25:03.893 --> 01:25:09.513
of the way we handled Joe Manchin or Kyrsten Sinema or Fetterman.

01:25:11.175 --> 01:25:15.295
Democratic Party lets the process go forward, and we understand,

01:25:15.795 --> 01:25:19.935
well, we can't get them on these particular votes.

01:25:20.435 --> 01:25:25.235
We move on. Now, if they get primary, then they lose in the primary, so be it.

01:25:26.015 --> 01:25:28.835
They had a fair shot to stay in. Somebody beat them.

01:25:29.095 --> 01:25:32.815
The constituency say we want somebody more aligned with the party than what

01:25:32.815 --> 01:25:35.195
you show. Then that's on the voters.

01:25:35.855 --> 01:25:37.815
But the party's not going to punish them.

01:25:38.515 --> 01:25:43.135
Now, I'm not saying that the Democratic Party has a light touch.

01:25:44.595 --> 01:25:48.775
I'm a witness to how the party can inflex its muscles.

01:25:49.975 --> 01:25:53.675
But the beauty of the Democratic Party to me, from my experience,

01:25:53.835 --> 01:25:58.655
has been even if you flex the muscles, folks are going to be like,

01:25:59.355 --> 01:26:01.135
nook if you buck, let's go for it.

01:26:01.775 --> 01:26:04.875
If you're going to come against me, so be it. I've seen so many people,

01:26:05.715 --> 01:26:14.595
AOC, who everybody loves now, she beat leadership to get into Congress because

01:26:14.595 --> 01:26:17.335
she took her appeal to the people.

01:26:17.735 --> 01:26:22.315
The people made a decision, do we want the guy who's fourth in line to be Speaker

01:26:22.315 --> 01:26:25.935
of the House or do we want somebody new? And they chose somebody new.

01:26:26.495 --> 01:26:28.395
And that's the way it's supposed to work.

01:26:29.315 --> 01:26:35.935
Trust me, people in the party were trying to protect this particular congressman, but it didn't work.

01:26:37.461 --> 01:26:45.941
You know, it's just, and they sure weren't writing tweets and posts on social

01:26:45.941 --> 01:26:51.601
media, you know, saying she was this and they were that. You know what I'm saying?

01:26:52.441 --> 01:26:57.881
When she got there, she talked to the leadership. They knew where she was coming

01:26:57.881 --> 01:26:59.901
from. She knew where they were coming from.

01:27:00.541 --> 01:27:07.621
Been rocking and rolling ever since. So that's just party dynamics,

01:27:08.221 --> 01:27:10.821
right, in a normal sense.

01:27:11.401 --> 01:27:18.941
But on the other side, either you're all in or you're out the game.

01:27:19.361 --> 01:27:26.161
That's crazy. That's overreacting. That's not being competent in leadership.

01:27:26.681 --> 01:27:30.021
It's a consistent theme with them.

01:27:30.601 --> 01:27:36.721
And it is up to us as voters to decide, do we want that to continue?

01:27:37.781 --> 01:27:41.981
Who's going to be the Fannie Lou Hamer of the Republican Party?

01:27:42.861 --> 01:27:50.081
Who's going to be the one who does what needs to be done to shake this up and

01:27:50.081 --> 01:27:53.121
to get that party back on track?

01:27:54.041 --> 01:27:57.941
We're always going to have a liberal party. We're always going to have a conservative party.

01:27:58.501 --> 01:28:02.181
And how things line up, it is what it is. And there's going to be factions within

01:28:02.181 --> 01:28:06.721
those parties that are going to buck the leadership to the left and to the right.

01:28:07.661 --> 01:28:09.561
That's how the political process goes.

01:28:10.561 --> 01:28:15.461
What cannot happen is a political party that wants to take away the liberties

01:28:15.461 --> 01:28:20.321
of every citizen, except those in alignment with them.

01:28:20.321 --> 01:28:28.661
And not just 80% alignment, not 90% alignment, 100%. That's got to change.

01:28:29.441 --> 01:28:33.501
And it's got to change sooner rather than later.

01:28:35.230 --> 01:28:41.050
And as we have given thanks for the year that we have survived,

01:28:41.250 --> 01:28:44.890
or in some cases thrived, right?

01:28:45.810 --> 01:28:48.730
We're thankful for those good moments and all that stuff.

01:28:49.430 --> 01:28:56.330
I'm just, I'm thankful that we're in a country where there are enough free-minded

01:28:56.330 --> 01:29:00.870
folks that are saying enough is enough.

01:29:00.870 --> 01:29:03.910
And that they are willing to do the work,

01:29:04.070 --> 01:29:16.030
whether run for office or do a podcast or write editorials or stand in hot weather

01:29:16.030 --> 01:29:17.570
and cold weather the protests,

01:29:18.310 --> 01:29:19.970
or just vote.

01:29:20.830 --> 01:29:25.670
I just appreciate those people that are willing to do what needs to be done,

01:29:26.230 --> 01:29:28.390
to fix what needs to be fixed.

01:29:29.850 --> 01:29:34.530
And as long as I'm able to do this, I will continue to uplift people who are

01:29:34.530 --> 01:29:41.410
doing the work and to encourage all of you to keep repairing the breach.

01:29:42.330 --> 01:29:46.930
All right, that's all I got. Thank you all for listening. Until next time.