Creative & Ethical Activism Featuring Denise Love Hewett and Wendell Wallach

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

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If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.

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First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash amomentwitherikfleming.

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Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak

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truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.

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Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you

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listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.

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Third, go to the website, momenteric.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,

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leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

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Tell someone else about the podcast. Encourage others to listen to the podcast

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and share the podcast on your social media platforms, because it is time to

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Music.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Hello. Welcome to another Moment with Eric Fleming. I am your host, Eric Fleming.

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And today I have two guests who are very distinctive in their own way.

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They're both activists in their own way.

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And it'll really be,

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Well, it is fascinating to talk to people like this and get their perspectives on the world.

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One is a very multi-talented individual in the world of entertainment and hosts

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her own podcasts, all that kind of stuff.

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And how she uses her talents to be an activist.

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And then my other guest is an individual that has, for years,

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really focused in on one particular issue and has been trying to be the voice of reason.

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And really be an activist to do the right thing in that one particular realm that he's focused on.

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So I hope that you enjoy these guests and enjoy, respect their perspective and

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just enjoy the conversation we were able to have.

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You know, 30 minutes is a long time to talk to somebody, but,

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you know, the one thing about the guests that I have is that you really want

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to talk to them for as long as you can.

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We just try to stay within a certain time frame.

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But anyway, I hope that y'all will enjoy listening to them.

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A couple of housekeeping notes. One, last week was Grace G's birthday.

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So allow y'all listeners to wish her a happy belated birthday on that.

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And we're still trying to get 20,000 subscribers on Patreon.

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So you can go to patreon.com slash amomentwithErik Fleming and go ahead and do that.

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Some weeks I'll remember to say it, others I won't.

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But just know that that's ongoing until we get it.

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And I will definitely let you know when we reach that threshold.

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Just for the importance of keeping this podcast independent and unencumbered, right?

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So, you know, a lot of stuff is what we've learned with this administration.

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A lot of stuff is going on.

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And, you know, we do our best to try to, you know, between me,

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Grace, you know, try to keep you informed about what's happening.

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So let's go ahead and get this program started. And as always,

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we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Music.

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Thanks, Erik. President Trump ordered federal agencies to grant the military

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authority over borderlands to build walls and install security infrastructure

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under a national emergency declaration.

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A suspect was arrested for a shooting at Florida State University in Tallahassee,

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which left one person dead and six injured.

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The Trump administration threatened to revoke Harvard's tax-exempt status over

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alleged anti-Semitism and froze $2 billion in federal funding.

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A suspect is in custody after Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro's residence

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was damaged in an arson attack.

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El Salvador's president, Bukele, refused to repatriate Kilmar Abrego Garcia, disregarding a U.S.

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Supreme Court order directed at the Trump administration.

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Salvadoran authorities allowed U.S. Senator Chris Van Hollen to meet with Abrego

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Garcia while visiting the country.

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A judge ruled Palestinian activist Mahmoud Khalil deportable under Trump's policies,

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denying his request to subpoena Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

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Two New York prison guards were charged with murder and eight others with related

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crimes for fatally beating an unarmed inmate, Messiah Nantwi,

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at Mid-State Correctional Facility in March.

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The NAACP sued the U.S. Education Department to block funding cuts targeting

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diversity programs for black students. The U.S.

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Military and Air Force academies will end race-conscious admissions policies

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following Trump administration directives. U.S.

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Prosecutors are reviewing a case involving a former FBI informant who admitted

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to fabricating bribery claims against Joe and Hunter Biden, seeking his release during an appeal.

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A federal judge rejected a challenge to immigration enforcement in places of worship.

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A Los Angeles judge approved resentencing hearings for the Menendez brothers,

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potentially making them eligible for parole after 35 years in prison for murdering their parents.

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And measles cases in Texas and New Mexico rose to 624.

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I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.

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And now it is time for our guest, Denise Love Hewett.

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Denise Love Hewett is the host of the podcast, Do the Work, which focuses on

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redefining leadership to be more holistic.

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This was birthed out of her time as a founder of Scripted, an entertainment

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tech company working to dismantle the inefficient and exclusionary practices of Hollywood.

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She comes from a world of entertainment, fashion, and hospitality,

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starting her career as a director of sales and marketing at famed nightclub

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The Box and working for cultural trailblazers like Patricia Field of Sex and

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the City and Ugly Betty fame,

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Marvin Jarrett from Nylon Magazine.

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Tyra Banks, Courtney Love, Simon Hammerstein, and Randy Wiener before creating

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content at MTV and Endable.

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She is a seasoned television and digital producer who lives at the intersection

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of activism, entrepreneurship, and entertainment.

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She is also a professional DJ who has worked with Vanity Fair,

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Gucci, Shishido, Sony, Glow Recipe, Oprah, Hilary Duff, among many others.

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She holds a bachelor's degree from Gallatin at NYU, where she studied cultural

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signifiers, how they affect and reflect society.

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And she has just started a brand new podcast called Too Much.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Denise Love Hewett. Music.

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Music.

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All right. Denise Love Hewett. How are you doing, ma'am? You doing good? Hi.

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I'm doing as good as one can be in the times that we're living in.

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Well, that's definitely understandable.

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And like I tell people all the time, this podcast is my therapy.

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So welcome to the session.

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I greatly appreciate you participating in that.

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Checking in. I love therapy. Yeah.

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So I kind of the way I do my thing, I've listened to your podcast.

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The kind of way I do my thing is I do some icebreakers at the beginning.

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So the first icebreaker is a quote.

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Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better,

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do better. What does that quote mean?

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I think that's Oprah's number one phrase she uses. I think it was Maya Angelou

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who recently said it to her.

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But, you know, I think that we don't always know what we don't know.

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So a lot of times, sometimes when people are behaving a certain way,

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it's because they're maybe not aware of how they're behaving.

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And then when they get the awareness, they can change that behavior.

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And so for me, that's the goal is make people aware so we can all do better.

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So most people want to. And when you do know better, you do do better.

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Yeah. All right. So the next icebreaker, I need you to pick a number between 1 and 20.

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12. Okay. What advice do you have for recognizing fake news,

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propaganda, misinformation, disinformation, whatever?

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You don't have to be able to recognize it. You have to be able to be vigilant to check it.

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The biggest thing is fact-checking and using Google to check your sources.

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And recently in my family thread, my mother sent this thing in our text chain.

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And I was like, this feels like conspiracy theory to me. Can you please tell

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me like where this came from?

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And then she's like, oh, well, I haven't fact-checked it yet.

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And I said, okay, well, I'm making a rule for this family chat.

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It can only be things in the family chat that you have checked before you put

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in here. I don't want to go down the tunnels of things that aren't true.

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We have to be really vigilant because that is one of the main ways we keep calm

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and keep control in this time is to check.

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So you don't have to necessarily be able to recognize it. You just have to do your job to check it.

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Yeah. Yeah. And that's very important, you know, because a lot of people just,

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you know, we get into these silos, right?

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And, you know, we want to, I'm old enough to remember Walter Cronkite.

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I don't know if, I don't think you are, but I know who Walter Cronkite is,

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but I mean, it was like, he was the person that we trusted. So if he told us

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this happened in the world and that happened. Right.

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And, you know, we don't, we don't have any Walter Cronkites anymore,

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or even a Peter Jennings.

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I mean, it's just, you know, so, but people still have that desire to trust

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the person that they're listening to, whether it's on a podcast, cable news, whatever.

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And, you know, people have taken advantage of that. So I think,

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you know, it's just as important.

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You know, I remember a pastor once saying, don't just take my word for it in

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a sermon, read the book yourself.

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And I think that's kind of the mantra we need to have in this political dialogue.

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I may ask you this question. I'm going to skip that one and get right into this

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one. What is it like being a creative in this political atmosphere we're in?

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Creatives thrive in environments where they have meaningful things to say and work to give.

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And that is the unfortunate truth, is that we are needed most in times of tension and frustration.

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Because people are looking for release, they're looking for support,

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and creatives have that ability to contextualize the world we live in. in a very heartfelt way.

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And so that's what's the weird part about living in a time like this is that

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you never feel more called to action, but it's very sad for the creative to

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feel like I want to be of service in this really hard time,

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but I wish this time didn't have to be so hard.

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Yeah. Yeah. So as far as you go, right, do you feel that...

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It's more of a service you're providing in this time or that it's more of a

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an opportunity to be more creative and to be more expressive.

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My ultimate goal as an artist is to always be of service. I believe that we

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all have a calling we're brought here for and our ultimate job while we're here

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is trying to figure out how to make that call like to be of service align with

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a financial like reality.

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And so everything I do, I look at it from that angle.

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How can I be of the most service with the gifts that I have?

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And so I've often as a creative struggled because at times where I've had to

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do jobs for money that are not soul fulfilling or feel like they're a part of

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my path, it feels like a waste of what I'm here to do. And in the times when

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I'm living fully in service, I feel the most whole.

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And so that's how I look at it. It's not necessarily binary.

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I think that for me, they go hand in hand.

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What problem do you have with pattern matching?

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You seem to have gotten famous saying that I got a problem with pattern matching.

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What is your problem with pattern matching? So historically,

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if society, especially American society, has predominantly run and been led

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by white men, then the pattern and data that we have in this country reflects that.

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So when you're raising capital or pitching a film script or starting a company,

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people are looking at data that isn't fair.

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So my issue is that when you look at that level of data and you're trying to

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de-risk your investment choice or your creative choice, you're actually hindering

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someone that doesn't fit that pattern.

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You're limiting the level of innovation and creativity we can see in the world

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because I am never going to fit that pattern.

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That pattern wasn't built for me. It wasn't built for people of color.

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It's not something we can use as a metric to de-risk anything.

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So, for example, in Hollywood, which is my background...

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International films have historically been led by a white male lead.

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So when we started diversifying those leads, like Black Panther is a great example,

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there was a lot of feedback around, well, this won't sell internationally,

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when internationally we're more people of color than white people.

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So it's also like a flawed logical argument.

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But the data doesn't support that because we've never done it.

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So relying on that data to saying it's not going to sell internationally is a fallacy.

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And you won't know until you do it. And then, of course, what did Black Panther

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do? It blew everyone's expectations away.

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And so my point is that if we're going to be innovating, you can't let the data hold you back.

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And the pattern that exists is not the pattern that we need in today's culture.

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And innovation doesn't come from patterns. So that's my major problem with the

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system, is that it's not a reliable success metric or indicator.

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So people have called you a pioneer for speaking out on that.

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Do you feel that you're a pioneer or you just feel it though that you were given

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a platform to vocalize something that others have been trying to work on?

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I'm in a lot of good company for sure. I'm definitely not alone in speaking

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truth to power in terms of inequity.

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There's plenty of people that I have learned from that have paved the way for me.

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Specifically in my story, I was building a tech startup at the time and I was

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raising capital and facing a deeper level of inequity in venture capital while

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I was trying to build this company to create more equity in Hollywood.

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So it was this really like weird mirror moment in which I'm trying to solve for inclusion here.

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And yet I'm facing that same problem in my own life, trying to make this company happen.

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And through that, There was a lot of mixed feedback. Venture capital,

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just for the audience, 2% of venture capital goes to women, which is an insane,

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sane statistic, and even less so for people of color.

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So like, okay, 1% for people of color. So still to this day,

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the number one mechanism for building generational wealth is biased towards one type of person.

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Yet women are 70% of the purchasing power in this country.

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Beyond that, women get higher returns on capital invested. So they're actually

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a better investment, yet they get less capital.

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So all these things, I was looking at all this information and saying,

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none of this makes sense. And it wasn't even about my company.

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It was the fact that I was meeting, I was also like coaching a lot of entrepreneurs.

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So during COVID, I was on Clubhouse and I met an amazing, amazing single woman,

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single mother who was building a smart car seat.

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And we had talked about it. She had put a patent in and I was like,

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well, are you talking to investors? I was like, have you made an investment deck?

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And she was like, well, what's an investment deck? And I was like,

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of course, you wouldn't know about an investment deck because why would you?

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Like, it's a weird language we've created for people to create these barriers

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to entry for people to participate.

00:18:53.584 --> 00:18:56.684
And there's all this brilliant innovation all around us, people who are true

00:18:56.684 --> 00:18:59.804
entrepreneurs, who are scrappy. This mom was working two jobs on the weekends.

00:18:59.904 --> 00:19:01.004
She's working on the smart car seat.

00:19:01.324 --> 00:19:06.004
She was unbelievable and would not have been taken seriously by this institution

00:19:06.004 --> 00:19:08.864
because she didn't speak the same language.

00:19:09.924 --> 00:19:12.604
And i just was infuriated i

00:19:12.604 --> 00:19:15.484
was infuriated that we were leaving beautiful brilliance on

00:19:15.484 --> 00:19:18.584
the table i was infuriated that women weren't

00:19:18.584 --> 00:19:21.804
allowed to compete at the same level and so i just

00:19:21.804 --> 00:19:28.264
had to speak knowing that in some ways i was letting my company i was like i

00:19:28.264 --> 00:19:31.464
was falling on the sword for my company let's just put it that way so a lot

00:19:31.464 --> 00:19:34.984
of people a lot of investors said why would you talk about this like entrepreneurs

00:19:34.984 --> 00:19:38.064
and investors why would you speak about this you're just going to look like

00:19:38.064 --> 00:19:39.784
a depreciated asset in the market.

00:19:40.064 --> 00:19:43.004
Everyone's just going to think you can't raise money. Every founder has a hard

00:19:43.004 --> 00:19:44.464
time. You just look like you're whining.

00:19:45.004 --> 00:19:49.584
And I said, I really don't care. The reality is the data speaks for itself.

00:19:49.824 --> 00:19:53.124
And I'm not whining. I don't give a shit about my company at this point.

00:19:53.324 --> 00:19:57.404
I care about like hopefully leveling the playing field.

00:19:57.564 --> 00:20:03.664
So moving forward, other founders face more, like have more of an opportunity.

00:20:03.884 --> 00:20:06.964
That's really all I give a shit about. Because that's what my company was all

00:20:06.964 --> 00:20:08.124
about, was creating more opportunity.

00:20:08.524 --> 00:20:14.624
You once said that we have no control over how our work is perceived or supported.

00:20:14.884 --> 00:20:19.144
We can only make the thing we are called to make.

00:20:19.664 --> 00:20:22.584
Why was that an important lesson for you to learn?

00:20:23.708 --> 00:20:28.308
Because in a world and a country specifically in capitalistic country that really

00:20:28.308 --> 00:20:30.468
values external validation,

00:20:30.468 --> 00:20:37.928
it's hard as an artist to feel like your work matters or means something if

00:20:37.928 --> 00:20:42.848
it's not tied to external financial success, visibility.

00:20:43.148 --> 00:20:46.648
I've done a lot of different experiments, creative experience along the way

00:20:46.648 --> 00:20:49.768
that I feel like were, you know,

00:20:49.908 --> 00:20:52.728
you just in a silo that not many people

00:20:52.728 --> 00:20:55.728
engaged with or weren't that I thought were really meaningful that

00:20:55.728 --> 00:20:58.988
but engaged with you know the right few but I

00:20:58.988 --> 00:21:02.888
think that impact impact work is different and

00:21:02.888 --> 00:21:05.808
so that's really what I've come to post company I was

00:21:05.808 --> 00:21:08.828
talking to someone on my podcast her episode will come out in a

00:21:08.828 --> 00:21:11.988
couple weeks but she has created huge

00:21:11.988 --> 00:21:15.188
strides in athletics for pay equity for women professional

00:21:15.188 --> 00:21:18.268
athletics and the whole time she was doing that she was barely making money

00:21:18.268 --> 00:21:21.748
she was getting by yet she created this monumental shift

00:21:21.748 --> 00:21:24.828
for so many people and to me that is the true success

00:21:24.828 --> 00:21:27.828
and i in in the world we live in we have to reframe it

00:21:27.828 --> 00:21:33.868
for ourselves because i think it's so hard to feel like it matters or you're

00:21:33.868 --> 00:21:38.908
doing something meaningful if you don't have that immediate feedback loop yeah

00:21:38.908 --> 00:21:43.908
you know what when i was putting this question together i was thinking about

00:21:43.908 --> 00:21:45.848
Alanis Morissette, right?

00:21:46.228 --> 00:21:49.988
Because Alanis Morissette has been doing music for years.

00:21:50.248 --> 00:21:54.908
Then she had this one monster album, right?

00:21:55.348 --> 00:22:02.228
And ever since then, she's made other albums, but they haven't been as successful,

00:22:02.228 --> 00:22:05.788
but she's still doing what she wants to do.

00:22:06.508 --> 00:22:13.348
I think that's something that all people that are creatives have to have to balance and juggle.

00:22:13.568 --> 00:22:16.868
And, you know, I look at her as a perfect example. She doesn't care.

00:22:17.088 --> 00:22:19.208
She's going to do what she wants to do.

00:22:19.628 --> 00:22:26.708
And, you know, just that one moment in time, everybody got it and bought the album.

00:22:26.968 --> 00:22:34.368
But, you know, her whole intent was to produce the music she wanted to produce

00:22:34.368 --> 00:22:38.608
and, and stand on, on what she truly is.

00:22:38.728 --> 00:22:43.728
And I think that's, I think that's something that is missing in politics.

00:22:43.728 --> 00:22:50.608
I think in, in, in politics, everybody's trying to find that magic formula,

00:22:50.848 --> 00:22:55.568
that magic catchphrase to get them elected, but you know, they're not being

00:22:55.568 --> 00:22:57.288
genuine and not being themselves.

00:22:57.728 --> 00:23:01.928
And, and that turns people off. Do you feel the same way?

00:23:02.661 --> 00:23:05.701
Yeah, I think Twyla Tharp, who's a very famous choreographer,

00:23:05.901 --> 00:23:09.901
wrote this book called The Creative Habit. And she's been a choreographer for 70 years.

00:23:10.101 --> 00:23:13.161
And she talked about failures she had, successes she had.

00:23:13.341 --> 00:23:17.081
And she's like, being an artist is focusing on the process. Being a creative

00:23:17.081 --> 00:23:19.041
is process-oriented, not outcome-oriented.

00:23:19.541 --> 00:23:25.381
And in a span of 70 years, she's had multiple massive successes that have connected in huge ways.

00:23:25.641 --> 00:23:27.601
But knowing that failure or as a part

00:23:27.601 --> 00:23:32.621
of it. And so that really helped me contextualize how I wanted to work.

00:23:32.801 --> 00:23:38.481
And when we talk about politics, what is clear to me in this last go-round was

00:23:38.481 --> 00:23:45.661
that Tim Waltz struck a chord with a lot of people for the reason that he's just a nice,

00:23:45.761 --> 00:23:47.961
normal guy. He's not in it for fame.

00:23:48.081 --> 00:23:51.481
He's not in it for money. He's in it for impact.

00:23:52.641 --> 00:23:56.641
And that is the purest, truest way to show up.

00:23:57.081 --> 00:24:00.201
Because people can see when you're in it for the fame or the money or whatever

00:24:00.201 --> 00:24:01.601
else that politics has become.

00:24:02.161 --> 00:24:06.201
And I think we just want to get back to a place where the people that are in

00:24:06.201 --> 00:24:07.761
power care about the people.

00:24:08.601 --> 00:24:11.441
Yeah. Yeah. Bottom line. All right.

00:24:11.541 --> 00:24:17.421
So you also said that great leadership stays at the intersection of inner work

00:24:17.421 --> 00:24:19.501
and professional success.

00:24:20.161 --> 00:24:24.481
Why is inner work such an integral part of leadership, in your opinion?

00:24:25.410 --> 00:24:31.350
I do not think you can be a great leader and a holistic leader without doing the internal inquiry.

00:24:31.650 --> 00:24:35.810
This is a big, this is a big theme. I will, I'm working currently working on a book about this.

00:24:36.410 --> 00:24:42.210
I believe that your personal and your professional worlds are inherently linked. They are not binary.

00:24:42.610 --> 00:24:46.010
And in the world that we have grown up in, we are told they are separate things.

00:24:46.130 --> 00:24:49.170
But whatever is happening in your personal life is happening in your professional

00:24:49.170 --> 00:24:51.590
life. So for example, you're a terrible communicator.

00:24:51.890 --> 00:24:56.430
You don't like text your partner all the time. I bet you're not communicating

00:24:56.430 --> 00:25:01.410
well at work as well My other friend he told me recently, you know back when he started his career.

00:25:01.610 --> 00:25:05.870
He's like he's a cultural strategist His job is to think and he's like I live

00:25:05.870 --> 00:25:10.050
in my head when I started dating someone I couldn't live in my head anymore.

00:25:10.190 --> 00:25:14.070
I had because that's they don't know what's going on You have to learn to change

00:25:14.070 --> 00:25:17.810
that and that the same thing that he was doing at work Which was thinking a

00:25:17.810 --> 00:25:22.030
lot wasn't necessarily communicating what he was thinking And so you create

00:25:22.030 --> 00:25:24.270
the tension in both parts of your life.

00:25:24.270 --> 00:25:27.970
And when you do the internal inquiry, you're able to alleviate that friction

00:25:27.970 --> 00:25:33.090
and tension and show up as a thoughtful, empathetic person.

00:25:33.490 --> 00:25:37.670
And leadership needs, like great managers are thoughtful and empathetic and present.

00:25:38.290 --> 00:25:43.730
And that's harder and harder to do in a social media addicted world in a work

00:25:43.730 --> 00:25:47.210
addicted world But I think there's nothing more valuable than taking the time

00:25:47.210 --> 00:25:51.650
to be the to try and be the best version of yourself to try and show up in the

00:25:51.650 --> 00:25:55.290
way that you want to and I see a radical shift in.

00:25:55.910 --> 00:26:00.630
My work and my relationship to work since I started working on myself and every

00:26:00.630 --> 00:26:06.370
leader That I know that is happy and has a lot of money Has done this.

00:26:07.234 --> 00:26:15.234
You, a lot of the, when you talk about inner work, a lot of that is connected to spirituality.

00:26:15.834 --> 00:26:19.894
And you say this doesn't necessarily have to be religion, but, and I agree with that.

00:26:19.974 --> 00:26:24.974
I think that you have to have some kind of grounding, some kind of foundation

00:26:24.974 --> 00:26:28.114
in order to, to move forward.

00:26:28.274 --> 00:26:33.594
If you don't love yourself, you can't love anybody else. And like I said in

00:26:33.594 --> 00:26:40.454
another podcast, if you don't have a love for the people, then you can't lead them.

00:26:41.334 --> 00:26:49.934
So I think that's vitally important to have that connection within yourself.

00:26:50.114 --> 00:26:58.774
I just, you know, because I've been through depression, so I know how that detachment feels, right?

00:26:59.654 --> 00:27:07.054
And, you know, I tell people I'm recovering from depression because I know how

00:27:07.054 --> 00:27:15.994
I was before and how I am now is not the same as I was before I had to deal with depression.

00:27:16.374 --> 00:27:25.694
But I'm better than what I was, you know, and, you know, you can see the difference.

00:27:25.694 --> 00:27:32.394
But if I wasn't in tune with myself, then I ain't no telling where I would be right now.

00:27:32.594 --> 00:27:36.354
So I think that's I think that's vitally important for leadership.

00:27:36.894 --> 00:27:42.654
And so, you know, most of your focus in leadership has been in the entertainment industry.

00:27:42.954 --> 00:27:48.954
So I'm so I'm going to ask you to expand that and ask, how do we redefine leadership

00:27:48.954 --> 00:27:53.494
in America to reflect the America we live in?

00:27:54.622 --> 00:27:59.082
The leadership we have currently in this country reflects the values that we have upheld.

00:27:59.782 --> 00:28:05.302
And so what I want to keep driving home for people is if you want a compassionate,

00:28:05.702 --> 00:28:11.882
empathetic leader who prioritizes your well-being, then we have to start prioritizing other things.

00:28:12.322 --> 00:28:17.522
We cannot prioritize money, power, and fame as our gods and then expect to get

00:28:17.522 --> 00:28:18.502
a different type of leader.

00:28:18.962 --> 00:28:21.682
We got exactly the shadow side

00:28:21.682 --> 00:28:24.742
of america in a human being now as

00:28:24.742 --> 00:28:28.622
our in the highest highest position in this country and

00:28:28.622 --> 00:28:35.222
so as much as it breaks my heart every day and i have a really hard time trying

00:28:35.222 --> 00:28:39.522
to contextualize how this happened there's a part of me that also is very clear

00:28:39.522 --> 00:28:43.962
how this happened right so that's my my biggest thing is we have to start with

00:28:43.962 --> 00:28:45.622
our own little corner of the world.

00:28:45.922 --> 00:28:51.262
So you and I on this podcast, we are starting with our local community,

00:28:51.262 --> 00:28:54.822
and then hopefully that reverberates, and then hopefully that creates change.

00:28:54.962 --> 00:28:58.482
But I can't control everything. I can control how I show up,

00:28:58.662 --> 00:29:02.962
how I treat people, how I support people, how I inspire people.

00:29:03.222 --> 00:29:09.402
And that's, I think, the best place to start to get to a place of a more to

00:29:09.402 --> 00:29:12.082
the promise of what the Constitution promised us, okay?

00:29:12.142 --> 00:29:15.822
We know it has never lived fully in practice, but there's a promise there that

00:29:15.822 --> 00:29:18.122
we can live into if we choose to,

00:29:18.382 --> 00:29:23.722
but we have to be able to be more community-minded and think a little less about

00:29:23.722 --> 00:29:28.502
ourselves and our own financial well-being 24-7.

00:29:29.102 --> 00:29:35.622
Yeah, and you know, that reminds me of what Shakespeare said,

00:29:35.742 --> 00:29:41.062
and I guess it was Hamlet or whatever, when it talks about to thy own self be true, right?

00:29:42.002 --> 00:29:46.722
Because in America, whenever something really crazy happens,

00:29:46.742 --> 00:29:51.702
we always say, well, that's not America. That's not who we are.

00:29:53.065 --> 00:29:59.085
But from what I hear you saying, it's like, actually, it is how we are. And we need to fix that.

00:29:59.525 --> 00:30:02.445
There's two competing narratives, right? There's a narrative they told us,

00:30:02.565 --> 00:30:04.285
which was that all men are created equal.

00:30:04.485 --> 00:30:07.585
Well, that was written while those people owned other people.

00:30:07.745 --> 00:30:13.125
So that we know in the birth of this country, there was misalignment from day one.

00:30:13.825 --> 00:30:19.005
So you can't expect to get to an alignment if it was birthed upon poison soil.

00:30:19.005 --> 00:30:25.745
So we now have to figure out how to realign, get to a place where we're living

00:30:25.745 --> 00:30:29.685
the values that were promised, not the values that were happening in actuality.

00:30:30.045 --> 00:30:33.665
And that's going to take some work, right? That's the work we're in right now,

00:30:33.725 --> 00:30:39.685
is to overthrow the toxic narrative that is racist, sexist, xenophobic,

00:30:39.945 --> 00:30:43.505
and greedy, and oligarchical.

00:30:43.505 --> 00:30:46.385
Like that's not the world the story

00:30:46.385 --> 00:30:49.465
we were told but that is what happens when you don't address

00:30:49.465 --> 00:30:53.325
the wrongdoings that you were born upon yeah

00:30:53.325 --> 00:30:56.105
and see that i've always made the

00:30:56.105 --> 00:31:00.445
argument that we're talking about spirituality that

00:31:00.445 --> 00:31:03.785
when thomas jefferson wrote that right

00:31:03.785 --> 00:31:07.205
that was more divine intervention than

00:31:07.205 --> 00:31:11.625
it was him because you

00:31:11.625 --> 00:31:15.565
know he was the

00:31:15.565 --> 00:31:20.265
worst kind of slave holder i mean he was having sex with the slaves he didn't

00:31:20.265 --> 00:31:24.385
free him when he promised to free him all that stuff but he was the one that

00:31:24.385 --> 00:31:32.125
said that all men are created equal he wrote that down and so i think that a lot of times when,

00:31:32.125 --> 00:31:35.165
you know, our aspiration is.

00:31:36.213 --> 00:31:44.013
Is fall short because we fall victim to, like you said, money, power, sex, whatever.

00:31:44.233 --> 00:31:47.053
We fall victim to our weakness.

00:31:48.333 --> 00:31:55.753
And if we don't do some self-reflecting, we can never get to our aspiration, right?

00:31:56.033 --> 00:32:01.153
Yeah. So, I mean, that's perfect how you brought that in.

00:32:01.513 --> 00:32:05.633
Do you still struggle with uncertainty and possibility?

00:32:06.253 --> 00:32:09.613
All the time all the time all

00:32:09.613 --> 00:32:12.753
the time being creative is just having such a

00:32:12.753 --> 00:32:15.853
deep amount of faith and conviction that you believe

00:32:15.853 --> 00:32:24.033
everything will work eventually i'm a virgo by birth so that's my sun sign and

00:32:24.033 --> 00:32:29.653
for astrology people like that's my south node so the south node is what you're

00:32:29.653 --> 00:32:34.853
born with and basically what you're learning to relinquish so as a virgo i'm very type Bay planner,

00:32:35.133 --> 00:32:37.253
love to know what's going on, love to plan ahead.

00:32:37.833 --> 00:32:42.713
My North Node is in Pisces, which is about dreaming, about uncertainty,

00:32:43.173 --> 00:32:44.733
letting go, being fluid.

00:32:44.973 --> 00:32:50.153
And so I am actively trying to get a lot more comfortable with the not knowing.

00:32:50.413 --> 00:32:54.453
I've come a long way, but I certainly am still not a master.

00:32:55.273 --> 00:33:01.133
And last year was like a year of deep, deep existential crisis for me that I

00:33:01.133 --> 00:33:05.953
have a lot more faith today, but about seven months ago, I was having a lot

00:33:05.953 --> 00:33:08.233
of daily talks to the universe about my life.

00:33:10.213 --> 00:33:15.373
Well, you know, it's like, I think if you are conscientious,

00:33:16.633 --> 00:33:18.613
then all of us struggle with that.

00:33:18.893 --> 00:33:22.473
I think, you know, when you, when you're talking about.

00:33:23.637 --> 00:33:28.217
This, this, this political atmosphere. There's definitely a lot of uncertainty,

00:33:28.477 --> 00:33:35.717
uncertainty at my end, as far as like, are we even going to have an election in 2026?

00:33:35.837 --> 00:33:40.557
It's like, is my party going to rebound from this?

00:33:40.657 --> 00:33:43.737
Are they going to learn something from it? You know, all those kinds of things

00:33:43.737 --> 00:33:48.977
as a black person, you know, there's, there's always been uncertainty as far

00:33:48.977 --> 00:33:52.797
as when is the other shoe going to drop and they really going to do something to us.

00:33:52.877 --> 00:33:56.777
You know, They've been trying, but it's like, you know, we've always managed

00:33:56.777 --> 00:33:58.357
to find a way to fight back.

00:33:58.597 --> 00:34:04.777
And then that's where the possibility comes in, because we've seen over time

00:34:04.777 --> 00:34:09.217
that, you know, people who have been oppressed in this country have found a

00:34:09.217 --> 00:34:12.277
way to go forward and to make progress.

00:34:12.357 --> 00:34:17.237
And, you know, all of us are having children. So it's like, you know,

00:34:17.337 --> 00:34:24.057
with our children, we see the possibility and we we we pray that there's a better

00:34:24.057 --> 00:34:26.137
world for them than what we're dealing with.

00:34:26.437 --> 00:34:31.037
So I think people, if they're if they're really honest, they all struggle with that.

00:34:31.337 --> 00:34:39.417
I think it what's ingenuous, disingenuous to me is people in politics that don't acknowledge that.

00:34:40.077 --> 00:34:44.797
I think that, you know, there's some kind of, I don't know,

00:34:45.337 --> 00:34:49.457
so a persona that people feel they have to have is like, I have all the answers

00:34:49.457 --> 00:34:53.877
and, and, and, and, you know, everything's going to be fine if I get elected,

00:34:53.877 --> 00:34:57.097
but that's not really the truth. You know what I'm saying?

00:34:57.797 --> 00:35:03.177
And, you know, when things get hard, I think, I think people are scared to be

00:35:03.177 --> 00:35:05.737
that genuine. Do you, do you kind of feel that sense?

00:35:06.037 --> 00:35:12.197
Oh, yeah. I think truth telling is the most scary thing for people to do and receive.

00:35:12.757 --> 00:35:17.137
It's because it's not, you know, a sugar cube.

00:35:18.117 --> 00:35:21.737
It's something that may not be the answer you want to hear, and that can be uncomfortable.

00:35:22.277 --> 00:35:25.097
But we live in a time where people are not comfortable with discomfort,

00:35:25.097 --> 00:35:26.277
and they need to get more comfortable.

00:35:26.417 --> 00:35:31.637
That's part of one of the issues we have as a society, is our inability to be uncomfortable.

00:35:32.117 --> 00:35:38.557
And the one thing this presidency is doing is making me deeply uncomfortable every day.

00:35:38.817 --> 00:35:42.817
But I also have to be really present, right? Because every day we have such a chaotic leader.

00:35:43.137 --> 00:35:47.757
I don't know what's coming next. So you can't plan anything because it's so volatile.

00:35:48.197 --> 00:35:51.417
So you're just like waiting to see what's going to happen.

00:35:51.677 --> 00:35:55.997
Are we fully going to have a constitutional crisis in which then a lot of people

00:35:55.997 --> 00:35:57.817
will be deeply unsafe and harmed?

00:35:57.977 --> 00:36:00.197
And so then what do we do to get those people safe.

00:36:00.377 --> 00:36:04.117
But those are the things I'm looking at is like, when certain things happen,

00:36:04.357 --> 00:36:07.377
you know, it's time to go or, you know, other things have to kick in.

00:36:07.477 --> 00:36:11.737
And those are the things that I'm trying to track for, because I believe we

00:36:11.737 --> 00:36:13.917
have enough people on the right side of history in this country.

00:36:14.257 --> 00:36:21.617
I don't believe fascism will prevail, but I do think it's going to be a really uncomfortable.

00:36:23.206 --> 00:36:28.866
Way forward. And a lot of people are going to have to give up something,

00:36:29.166 --> 00:36:32.446
give up like some sort of security, some sort of comfort.

00:36:32.786 --> 00:36:36.226
And I don't think a lot of Americans have thought about that,

00:36:36.406 --> 00:36:39.346
are ready to do that. I just had a conversation with my mother about this, actually.

00:36:40.786 --> 00:36:43.706
And I've started to ask myself a lot of real questions, like,

00:36:43.746 --> 00:36:46.686
is if we really do have to fight for this, what are you willing to give up?

00:36:46.766 --> 00:36:47.746
Are you willing to be imprisoned?

00:36:48.026 --> 00:36:51.746
What are the steps you're willing to take? And I want more people to ask themselves those questions.

00:36:51.746 --> 00:36:57.006
Yeah, I heard you say that on your podcast that, you know,

00:36:57.166 --> 00:37:01.706
you have to make a conscientious decision because you were saying everybody

00:37:01.706 --> 00:37:08.426
that you've admired that's been involved in what we call good trouble have had

00:37:08.426 --> 00:37:09.706
to have that experience.

00:37:10.246 --> 00:37:15.666
I've had to serve some time. And I volunteer in prison. So I'm in prison every

00:37:15.666 --> 00:37:16.526
three months volunteering.

00:37:16.786 --> 00:37:20.746
So I'm very aware of what that environment is and looks like,

00:37:20.866 --> 00:37:25.966
at least in California, which is pretty, we're a little more on the rehabilitative

00:37:25.966 --> 00:37:27.426
side, still a long way to go.

00:37:28.426 --> 00:37:32.226
But you have to ask those questions. And certainly in this environment,

00:37:32.806 --> 00:37:35.726
where he's sending people is not like a California prison.

00:37:36.026 --> 00:37:38.446
It's a concentration camp, essentially.

00:37:39.026 --> 00:37:44.666
So we people need to start asking because I don't think this administration

00:37:44.666 --> 00:37:49.666
that leads by force, which is an unsustainable strategy, I don't believe that

00:37:49.666 --> 00:37:51.926
they are going to go down quietly.

00:37:52.206 --> 00:37:57.386
So we really have to figure out as people who care about protecting civil liberties.

00:37:58.366 --> 00:38:03.146
How we show up to save, you know, like there's a long way to go in America,

00:38:03.146 --> 00:38:06.226
but save at least the progress we've made thus far.

00:38:06.806 --> 00:38:10.706
All right. Who is the better futurist, you or Elon Musk and why?

00:38:11.266 --> 00:38:14.526
Elon Musk is not a futurist. Let's just clarify this for real quick, real quick.

00:38:14.726 --> 00:38:18.846
That man is not a futurist. He is not innovating. He is not inventing.

00:38:18.986 --> 00:38:25.386
He is buying people's companies that have created a technology that then he can just profit upon.

00:38:25.526 --> 00:38:28.266
As we've seen through Doge, he is also a terrible leader.

00:38:28.526 --> 00:38:32.306
He's employed people that are young, sycophantic.

00:38:32.666 --> 00:38:37.006
So he has complete control and agency. That is not leadership.

00:38:37.426 --> 00:38:42.426
Leadership is collaborative. Leadership is inventive. And let's just talk about process.

00:38:42.726 --> 00:38:46.346
For example, you're going to come in, do no diligence, eliminate things without

00:38:46.346 --> 00:38:50.626
weighing the pros and cons of the effects of what you're doing. Terrible leadership.

00:38:50.886 --> 00:38:54.186
You want to talk about efficiency and saving money. You need to make thoughtful

00:38:54.186 --> 00:38:56.566
decisions before you take action.

00:38:56.786 --> 00:39:01.806
And Silicon Valley has run on A move fast, break things mentality.

00:39:02.915 --> 00:39:06.095
Venture capital has supported these men in thinking that they are gods.

00:39:06.255 --> 00:39:09.015
They encourage them to lie. They encourage them to cheat.

00:39:09.235 --> 00:39:13.675
They encourage them to do whatever they have to do to get ahead and growth at all costs.

00:39:14.115 --> 00:39:19.515
I think we're seeing now the fallacy of venture capital. There's a reason so

00:39:19.515 --> 00:39:22.095
many founders have been taken down by the media.

00:39:22.395 --> 00:39:25.695
And when they get taken down, somehow I always get a call from a journalist

00:39:25.695 --> 00:39:27.155
because I'm one degree away.

00:39:27.415 --> 00:39:30.755
And the journalist will ask me questions and I say, you're not looking at the

00:39:30.755 --> 00:39:35.155
right thing. The problem is venture capital founders are the symptom of this

00:39:35.155 --> 00:39:36.475
bad disease of venture capital.

00:39:36.795 --> 00:39:40.035
And so when you've been trained and rewarded in that, what does your brain do?

00:39:40.195 --> 00:39:44.155
Your brain then codes that you can get away with a lot of things.

00:39:44.195 --> 00:39:46.155
And when you're supported in that, you keep doing it.

00:39:46.335 --> 00:39:51.715
And so I don't think Elon Musk had done anything other than been given a lot

00:39:51.715 --> 00:39:53.735
of opportunity and a lot of grace to succeed.

00:39:54.055 --> 00:39:58.315
And he had the right people around him, the right time, and the right amount of money.

00:39:58.535 --> 00:40:03.535
There are so many people I know that have given in the same depth and grace

00:40:03.535 --> 00:40:07.695
of opportunity, who would have done what he has done and more,

00:40:07.955 --> 00:40:11.135
but along the way, actually maybe solved world hunger.

00:40:12.015 --> 00:40:17.095
Right. I just, you know, and maybe I don't have the right mindset.

00:40:17.295 --> 00:40:20.955
That's probably why I wouldn't have that amount of money. But it seems to me

00:40:20.955 --> 00:40:26.935
that if the President of the United States said I could do anything I wanted

00:40:26.935 --> 00:40:29.935
to do and I was worth 400 million,

00:40:30.195 --> 00:40:32.435
400 billion dollars. Yeah.

00:40:33.135 --> 00:40:37.235
The last thing I want to do is tinker with the federal government.

00:40:37.575 --> 00:40:42.095
I, I'd moved to Puerto Rico. Hey, y'all need like a new grid.

00:40:42.635 --> 00:40:45.475
We can make that happen. We need to develop something.

00:40:45.755 --> 00:40:52.575
I would, I would go someplace where it's like, you know, people need some help.

00:40:52.795 --> 00:40:55.975
It's like Jeff Bezos is X. Yeah.

00:40:56.604 --> 00:40:59.964
Poor Mckenzie Scott i i say poor only

00:40:59.964 --> 00:41:02.744
in the in the struggle i i compare her struggle to

00:41:02.744 --> 00:41:05.764
Brewster's millions i don't know if you remember that movie Richard Pryor

00:41:05.764 --> 00:41:08.624
where he had to spend so much

00:41:08.624 --> 00:41:13.264
money in order to get more money and everything he did he was making money so

00:41:13.264 --> 00:41:16.724
he wasn't losing any money and that's that's kind of her situation she's giving

00:41:16.724 --> 00:41:23.044
money away but she's she's always making money every day based on you know her

00:41:23.044 --> 00:41:28.464
settlement yeah so it's like it's just a never-ending thing But she's trying to do the right thing.

00:41:28.924 --> 00:41:33.904
And it's like it would seem like to me that somebody of his magnitude,

00:41:33.904 --> 00:41:39.264
you know, would have would have taken advantage of that. But I guess,

00:41:39.824 --> 00:41:43.664
again, it goes back to not doing the inner work.

00:41:44.664 --> 00:41:47.464
If someone had done any of these men had done the inner work,

00:41:47.684 --> 00:41:50.164
Donald Trump, Elon Musk, J.D.

00:41:50.264 --> 00:41:56.104
Vance, Peter Thiel, whatever their wounding is, we're unfortunately reaping

00:41:56.104 --> 00:41:59.284
the consequences of it. Because if you are a content person,

00:41:59.564 --> 00:42:02.544
if you are a person, like what the question of what is enough, right?

00:42:02.664 --> 00:42:05.644
Like how much more money do you need? Like what is enough?

00:42:06.584 --> 00:42:09.824
The fact that they're not asking those questions, the fact that they're operating

00:42:09.824 --> 00:42:15.244
out of ego, out of force shows that they're wounded because hurt people hurt people, right?

00:42:15.244 --> 00:42:20.164
People that care about other people don't look to wield harm upon them.

00:42:20.244 --> 00:42:21.884
They don't look at people as expendable.

00:42:22.064 --> 00:42:25.904
And these men look at humans as productive or unproductive.

00:42:26.404 --> 00:42:30.744
And that is not what humans were ever here to do. We're here to be and to be

00:42:30.744 --> 00:42:31.824
in community and to create.

00:42:32.384 --> 00:42:36.164
Capitalism was thing we created. It's not what's in our nature necessarily.

00:42:36.544 --> 00:42:41.464
So it's all very bizarre to me because of the core, I mean, bizarre,

00:42:41.564 --> 00:42:42.484
not really bizarre, but it's just

00:42:42.484 --> 00:42:49.544
more makes me sad because whatever pain they're feeling can be healed.

00:42:50.924 --> 00:42:55.244
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If, if they, if they so desire it.

00:42:55.344 --> 00:42:58.984
So let's, let's, let's end this on a more uplifting note.

00:43:01.764 --> 00:43:08.404
Let's. What gives you the biggest thrill, podcasting, DJing, or public speaking?

00:43:09.204 --> 00:43:13.364
They all give me something a little bit different, but it's all the same thing.

00:43:13.524 --> 00:43:16.324
The reason I love podcasting, I guess it's a little different,

00:43:16.484 --> 00:43:19.464
but public speaking and DJing, what I love about

00:43:19.464 --> 00:43:22.864
being live in front of people is there's this beautiful energetic

00:43:22.864 --> 00:43:26.204
exchange that happens and there's nothing like performing

00:43:26.204 --> 00:43:29.224
live there is no substitute for that

00:43:29.224 --> 00:43:32.064
feedback in real time the magic

00:43:32.064 --> 00:43:35.844
that you can create the level of flow state you can achieve in like a short

00:43:35.844 --> 00:43:43.204
amount of time it is so so joyful for me podcasting for me the joy of it is

00:43:43.204 --> 00:43:49.704
two things one surfacing all the brilliant humans that exist in this world and giving them,

00:43:50.024 --> 00:43:54.384
having a conversation with them that I hope will plant seeds for people of how

00:43:54.384 --> 00:43:56.964
to live the blueprint that makes the most sense for them.

00:43:57.544 --> 00:44:01.724
It really has restored my faith in humanity this year.

00:44:02.244 --> 00:44:06.044
There's so many great, amazing people who give a damn.

00:44:06.444 --> 00:44:09.504
And that makes me feel so full.

00:44:09.704 --> 00:44:13.464
Like podcasting really feeds my soul, having a really intimate,

00:44:13.724 --> 00:44:19.144
special conversation that then we can share with a lot of people and hopefully inspire them.

00:44:19.284 --> 00:44:22.824
Like, that's the goal is to give people the tools to feel like they have agency

00:44:22.824 --> 00:44:26.204
over their own lives, feel like they aren't helpless, to feel like they can

00:44:26.204 --> 00:44:30.564
be the dreams that they have. That's what I want for all people.

00:44:31.504 --> 00:44:36.784
Amen. Amen. Because that is exactly the reason why I do what I do.

00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:43.680
You know, so it has been an honor to have that meaningful conversation with

00:44:43.680 --> 00:44:45.780
you, Denise Love Hewett.

00:44:47.260 --> 00:44:51.680
And, you know, like I tell every guest, you have an open invitation to come back.

00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:55.920
You know, if something's burning, you say, Erik, look, I got to get this off

00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:57.600
my chest. You know, we'll make that happen.

00:44:58.180 --> 00:45:03.880
So I want you to take advantage of that. But before we officially sign off,

00:45:04.040 --> 00:45:06.780
tell people how they can get in touch with you, how they can,

00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:11.220
you know, the name of the podcast that you do. Because you do too, right?

00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:16.100
Well, I've sunset Do the Work. So Do the Work was my first iteration,

00:45:16.100 --> 00:45:17.880
and it was about redefining leadership.

00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:23.160
And then I had a deep desire to expand that container to talk about new ways

00:45:23.160 --> 00:45:28.360
of redefining success, motherhood, romantic relationships, masculinity.

00:45:28.360 --> 00:45:30.760
I think we need a lot of new blueprints.

00:45:31.060 --> 00:45:34.980
The ones that have existed are not aging well. They've timed out.

00:45:35.220 --> 00:45:37.360
So I want to give people other pathways.

00:45:37.680 --> 00:45:40.980
So the new podcast is called Too Much with Denise Love Hewett.

00:45:41.120 --> 00:45:43.140
And that's what it's all about, redefining categories.

00:45:43.500 --> 00:45:49.060
And you can find me on TikTok, Instagram at Denise Love Hewett. It's E-T-T.

00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:54.740
And I would love to hear from you and feedback, advice, ideas. We're very open.

00:45:55.540 --> 00:46:00.820
Well, Denise, thank you again for coming on the podcast. I greatly appreciate you taking the time.

00:46:01.640 --> 00:46:05.160
I so appreciate this, Erik. It was such a joy to spend time with you.

00:46:05.300 --> 00:46:09.280
And thank you for all the good service you have done.

00:46:09.720 --> 00:46:12.200
All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

00:46:12.720 --> 00:46:30.960
Music.

00:46:30.804 --> 00:46:38.724
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Wendell Wallach.

00:46:39.264 --> 00:46:44.324
Wendell Wallach has an international reputation as an expert on the ethics and

00:46:44.324 --> 00:46:50.744
governance of emerging technologies, particularly artificial intelligence and biotechnologies.

00:46:50.744 --> 00:46:56.564
While semi-retired, he continues to consult and accept speaking engagements.

00:46:56.844 --> 00:47:04.504
From 2020 to 2024, he was the Carnegie Uhero Senior Fellow at the Carnegie Council

00:47:04.504 --> 00:47:06.724
for Ethics in International Affairs,

00:47:07.044 --> 00:47:16.824
where he founded and co-directed with Anja Kaspersen, the AI and Equality Initiative.

00:47:16.824 --> 00:47:22.544
He is also senior advisor to the Hastings Center and a scholar at the Yale University

00:47:22.544 --> 00:47:24.064
Interdisciplinary Center for

00:47:24.064 --> 00:47:29.004
Bioethics, where he chaired technology and ethics studies for 11 years.

00:47:29.884 --> 00:47:34.524
Wallach's latest book, A Primer on Emerging Technologies, is entitled A Dangerous

00:47:34.524 --> 00:47:38.504
Master, How to Keep Technology from Slipping Beyond Our Control.

00:47:38.764 --> 00:47:43.844
He co-authored with Colin Allen, Moral Machines, Teaching Robots Right from

00:47:43.844 --> 00:47:49.284
Wrong. The World Technology Award for Ethics was awarded to Wendell in 2014

00:47:49.284 --> 00:47:52.504
and for Journalism and Media in 2015.

00:47:53.284 --> 00:47:59.864
He was appointed Fulbright Research Chair at the University of Ottawa in 2015 to 2016.

00:48:00.324 --> 00:48:05.224
The World Economic Forum appointed Mr. Wallach co-chair of its Global Future

00:48:05.224 --> 00:48:10.704
Council on Technology Values and Policies for the 2016 to 2018 term.

00:48:11.464 --> 00:48:17.604
More recently, Wallach has been referred to as a godfather of AI ethics.

00:48:18.104 --> 00:48:22.744
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:48:22.744 --> 00:48:26.204
on this podcast, Wendell Wallach.

00:48:27.600 --> 00:48:37.200
Music.

00:48:37.376 --> 00:48:41.616
All right. Wendell Wallach. How are you doing, sir? Are you doing good?

00:48:42.336 --> 00:48:44.256
Doing fine. Thanks for having me.

00:48:45.076 --> 00:48:50.156
Now, did I pronounce your last name right? Because, you know, I'm a... I did good.

00:48:51.136 --> 00:48:56.796
Wallach. Okay. All right. Because, you know, I'm from the old school. You know, phonics.

00:48:57.616 --> 00:49:01.016
I had phonics when I was little. So I try to do phonetic stuff.

00:49:01.996 --> 00:49:07.116
Well, first of all... Yes, sir. Well, first of all, it's an honor to have you on.

00:49:07.296 --> 00:49:15.196
You are one of the more preeminent voices when it comes to ethics in modern

00:49:15.196 --> 00:49:17.956
or what they say, emerging technologies.

00:49:18.596 --> 00:49:23.236
And so for you to come on the podcast is really, really an honor for me.

00:49:23.816 --> 00:49:28.996
And as I stated before, you're one of the smartest people out here on the planet.

00:49:29.836 --> 00:49:34.756
And I greatly appreciate you sharing some of that knowledge with me and the audience.

00:49:36.161 --> 00:49:40.961
Well, thanks for your kind words. Yes, sir. All right. So I kind of break the

00:49:40.961 --> 00:49:43.561
ice a little bit and I do a couple of things.

00:49:43.701 --> 00:49:46.821
The first thing is I offer a quote to the guest.

00:49:47.221 --> 00:49:55.301
So this is your quote. The underlying purpose of AI is to allow wealth to access

00:49:55.301 --> 00:50:01.141
skill while removing the skilled, the ability to access wealth.

00:50:02.161 --> 00:50:04.941
That's interesting. I don't remember saying that, but.

00:50:05.601 --> 00:50:11.081
No, no, you didn't say it. You know, you get to this point where you've said

00:50:11.081 --> 00:50:16.541
so many things, you are sometimes surprised by what you have put out there.

00:50:17.141 --> 00:50:20.981
And I'm afraid that is true.

00:50:20.981 --> 00:50:28.541
It's true in the sense that AI is really serving the interests of an oligopoly

00:50:28.541 --> 00:50:34.821
and political leaders who are pretty intent on manipulating people's behavior

00:50:34.821 --> 00:50:36.561
and attitudes and beliefs.

00:50:36.781 --> 00:50:41.381
And it's not to say there aren't also a thousand good things that AI is doing.

00:50:41.381 --> 00:50:46.561
But there's a difference between there being a thousand good things and what

00:50:46.561 --> 00:50:52.041
the overall structure of the technology is and who it serves.

00:50:53.021 --> 00:50:58.701
So when an Elon Musk, for example, enters into the Trump government,

00:50:58.701 --> 00:51:03.061
he may want a lot of things, including fame and power.

00:51:03.061 --> 00:51:08.421
But he's particularly interested in all that data the U.S.

00:51:08.561 --> 00:51:15.701
Government has on each of us conglomerating that and the power it will give

00:51:15.701 --> 00:51:22.621
to AI and those who utilize or are behind the AI in their practices,

00:51:22.981 --> 00:51:27.041
an awful lot of which is directed at manipulating our behavior,

00:51:27.341 --> 00:51:31.981
again, for marketing and propaganda purposes. Yeah.

00:51:32.921 --> 00:51:38.741
All right. So now the the other icebreaker is I need you to give me a number between one and twenty.

00:51:40.015 --> 00:51:47.335
17. Okay. What's something about people who see the world differently than you

00:51:47.335 --> 00:51:49.095
that you've come to appreciate?

00:51:49.655 --> 00:51:54.455
Boy, that's a great question, but it's almost the other way around.

00:51:54.735 --> 00:52:01.255
I probably came out of an elitist background and that kind of background where

00:52:01.255 --> 00:52:04.995
you're special and your attitudes are the right ones.

00:52:05.515 --> 00:52:13.015
So, I mean, it's taken a lifetime of breaking some of those pretenses and biases

00:52:13.015 --> 00:52:18.715
down and just realizing that almost everybody on me has something to say to

00:52:18.715 --> 00:52:20.695
me that I need to assimilate.

00:52:21.335 --> 00:52:27.715
So, I mean, I think that's the broad answer to it. But the more a specific one,

00:52:27.795 --> 00:52:29.075
is I've traveled widely.

00:52:29.415 --> 00:52:36.395
So I've been exposed to people all over the world who just don't see the world the way I do.

00:52:36.815 --> 00:52:44.135
I'm surprised, for example, when I'm in China, how vigorously some of the most

00:52:44.135 --> 00:52:46.495
thoughtful Chinese defend their government.

00:52:47.275 --> 00:52:58.395
And I don't think it's a voice coming out of their feeling pressured or exploited or manipulated,

00:52:58.815 --> 00:53:02.435
but they really do, in some heartfelt way.

00:53:03.595 --> 00:53:08.575
Feel that their government is working relatively well for the Chinese people.

00:53:08.815 --> 00:53:16.255
That's particularly true since, for example, the present government led bringing

00:53:16.255 --> 00:53:22.975
500 million people, some say 800 million people, out of poverty.

00:53:23.595 --> 00:53:28.935
So, just an example of something that surprised me when I encountered it.

00:53:29.795 --> 00:53:34.395
Yeah, and that's a good perspective to know.

00:53:35.495 --> 00:53:39.275
So, how much has science fiction influenced your work?

00:53:39.375 --> 00:53:42.795
You talk about you came from a leader's background, but I want to go.

00:53:43.955 --> 00:53:48.855
You know, because I think about people like Isaac Asimov and,

00:53:48.855 --> 00:53:55.315
you know, a lot of others, Octavia Butler, you know, all those people that were

00:53:55.315 --> 00:53:58.575
kind of predicting where we were going.

00:53:59.315 --> 00:54:06.655
And so I just, you know, I usually don't get to ask a lot of scientists a lot of questions.

00:54:06.935 --> 00:54:17.115
So, you know, did science fiction kind of influence you going into this bioethicist?

00:54:18.355 --> 00:54:22.535
I can't even say if I'm saying it right. but you're a profession.

00:54:23.795 --> 00:54:26.135
Yeah, I mean, you kind of, right.

00:54:27.663 --> 00:54:31.743
I mean, how could science fiction not because all the projections people are

00:54:31.743 --> 00:54:37.223
making about the future are science fiction, and a lot of them showed up very early on.

00:54:37.483 --> 00:54:42.303
But though I read science fiction, you know, the classics in it,

00:54:42.563 --> 00:54:47.483
I'm not one of the big avid science fiction readers and followers,

00:54:47.483 --> 00:54:54.343
and I really got into this field around 2001 where it started to look like an

00:54:54.343 --> 00:54:59.663
awful lot of science fiction was going to become reality over the next 50 to 100 years.

00:55:00.303 --> 00:55:08.603
So I can't say that like many scientists, science fiction is much more prominent.

00:55:08.763 --> 00:55:11.623
It's why they became scientists.

00:55:12.003 --> 00:55:17.223
And certainly something like Asimov's three laws have played a role in,

00:55:17.443 --> 00:55:22.543
I mean, the first few pages of Moral Machines Teaching Robots Right from Wrong,

00:55:22.643 --> 00:55:28.303
one of my books that I co-authored with Colin Allen, where we look at the prospects

00:55:28.303 --> 00:55:33.123
for implementing sensitivity to moral considerations in robots and computers

00:55:33.123 --> 00:55:36.883
and the ability to factor those into their choices and actions,

00:55:37.203 --> 00:55:39.863
we sort of mapped that field out.

00:55:40.023 --> 00:55:44.023
But sort of the first thing is we heard from everyone was, well,

00:55:44.083 --> 00:55:50.103
didn't Asimov solve that problem with his three and then later four laws of robots?

00:55:50.243 --> 00:55:56.503
And what people seem to forget is Asimov laid out these perfectly logical,

00:55:56.863 --> 00:56:02.703
hierarchically arranged principles, and then he wrote roughly 80 stories,

00:56:02.723 --> 00:56:08.003
more than 80 stories, but not all of them, point out why these three laws wouldn't work.

00:56:08.123 --> 00:56:16.503
So why three simple ethical principles are not adequate to either have sensitivity

00:56:16.503 --> 00:56:20.063
to ethical considerations or to know what's the right thing to do.

00:56:21.083 --> 00:56:25.623
Yeah. So if it wasn't science fiction per se, what inspired you to do this?

00:56:25.703 --> 00:56:29.383
Because you've been doing this for at least over 15 years.

00:56:29.743 --> 00:56:35.403
You know, 15 years ago, nobody was really talking about AI, at least not in

00:56:35.403 --> 00:56:37.483
casual conversation like we do now.

00:56:38.103 --> 00:56:42.063
So what was the trigger to get you involved in this stuff?

00:56:42.603 --> 00:56:48.643
Well, I mean, for me, it probably starts much earlier, and it is on the ethical side.

00:56:49.023 --> 00:56:56.323
When I was 17 years old, two local ministers came to my house early in the morning

00:56:56.323 --> 00:56:59.943
to take me on the march on Washington in 1963.

00:57:00.523 --> 00:57:07.063
So I was in the early part of that kind of folk movement, civil rights,

00:57:07.283 --> 00:57:12.123
anti-Vietnam War generation, and I was very much an activist,

00:57:12.523 --> 00:57:19.563
you know, having spent some time in prison and in Alabama during the Selma-Montgomery

00:57:19.563 --> 00:57:23.863
marches, you know, and that followed me.

00:57:23.963 --> 00:57:30.943
And I also got very interested in Eastern religions and started thinking about

00:57:30.943 --> 00:57:38.183
why ethics didn't work very well and what did it need. So when I encountered.

00:57:39.556 --> 00:57:44.256
With a relatively small culture, a few hundred people worldwide,

00:57:44.516 --> 00:57:50.756
a transhumanist and others who were waxing poetic about the benefits they could

00:57:50.756 --> 00:57:53.656
get from technological enhancements and other things,

00:57:54.216 --> 00:57:57.856
my antennas were already out there for, well, what could go wrong?

00:57:58.476 --> 00:58:02.956
And, of course, some of them were already pointing out what would go wrong.

00:58:02.956 --> 00:58:09.156
And Eliezer Yukowsky was already telling people that the singularity was coming

00:58:09.156 --> 00:58:13.056
and robots were going to basically decimate humans.

00:58:13.936 --> 00:58:20.256
And AI was going to basically decimate humans. So that got me into the field.

00:58:20.736 --> 00:58:26.676
I very early on became the chair of the technology and ethics study group at Yale.

00:58:26.916 --> 00:58:32.116
But it was such a vast field that I needed something to get my hands on.

00:58:32.956 --> 00:58:37.736
And this project that I did the book together with Colin Allen,

00:58:37.736 --> 00:58:41.656
and I did some earlier research with a woman, Eva Schmidt,

00:58:42.536 --> 00:58:46.536
on whether you can implement moral decision-making faculties and robots,

00:58:46.876 --> 00:58:53.256
sort of helped me focus a little bit and get back to my primary interest,

00:58:53.456 --> 00:58:59.016
even going back as a kid, which is, can we know what is right and good? And if so, how?

00:58:59.636 --> 00:59:07.276
And so the book became a sneaky way of having this ethical inquiry in the context

00:59:07.276 --> 00:59:12.156
of technology, which made it much more accessible for many people,

00:59:12.276 --> 00:59:17.356
though probably it was more successful in its subtext,

00:59:17.596 --> 00:59:22.216
meaning it's a primer on ethics, what works and what doesn't work,

00:59:22.396 --> 00:59:27.576
than it was as a book that really gave us a clear pathway.

00:59:27.816 --> 00:59:32.856
To ensure that future technologies would act in an ethical way.

00:59:33.840 --> 00:59:40.860
And I guess now we're at the stage where I'm bewildered at the extent to which

00:59:40.860 --> 00:59:47.380
we indulge essentially unsafe technologies with limited safeguards.

00:59:48.720 --> 00:59:54.840
Yeah. So that perfectly segues, well, I'd say perfectly, into my next question.

00:59:54.840 --> 01:00:00.620
One of the biggest challenges in artificial intelligence, as highlighted by Dr.

01:00:00.780 --> 01:00:06.700
Joy Boulamwini, has been facial recognition of darker-skinned humans and speech

01:00:06.700 --> 01:00:09.480
recognition of African-American vernaculars.

01:00:10.420 --> 01:00:15.920
How ethical can AI be if it perpetuates racial bias?

01:00:16.400 --> 01:00:19.180
It can't. That's pretty simple.

01:00:19.940 --> 01:00:26.920
It can't, and it can't because it's being trained on not only—I don't care about skin color.

01:00:27.080 --> 01:00:29.440
I don't care if it shows that you're green or purple.

01:00:29.700 --> 01:00:35.180
That's not the problem. The problem is it's being trained on this vast body

01:00:35.180 --> 01:00:42.260
of historical information and more recent information, which is intrinsically racist.

01:00:42.260 --> 01:00:45.020
So now you have this problem that you

01:00:45.020 --> 01:00:52.200
have a skin color and you can match it with both historical and more recent

01:00:52.200 --> 01:00:59.620
data where people said skin color equates to or has a very strong connection

01:00:59.620 --> 01:01:02.880
to because that's how AI works,

01:01:03.020 --> 01:01:04.940
basically. It's a connectionist network.

01:01:05.240 --> 01:01:07.400
It's creating strength.

01:01:08.360 --> 01:01:13.260
It's quantifying the relationship between one characteristic and another characteristic.

01:01:13.720 --> 01:01:21.420
So there's no way that the identification of skin color is going to be a positive

01:01:21.420 --> 01:01:28.800
thing if you have backlogs of racist information to draw on to interpret what

01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:31.860
the skin color means. Yeah.

01:01:33.220 --> 01:01:38.200
So you have... I'm credited for being one of the early people to...

01:01:38.200 --> 01:01:44.980
I mean, people like myself were talking about bias long before people like Joy

01:01:44.980 --> 01:01:48.560
came along and brought some empirical evidence to bear.

01:01:49.400 --> 01:01:50.880
Yeah, yeah. And...

01:01:52.106 --> 01:01:56.866
Yeah, so she really has kind of taken it to a new level.

01:01:57.166 --> 01:02:01.686
And, you know, a lot of times when you look back at history,

01:02:01.686 --> 01:02:06.806
when they used to talk about the bell curve and all that stuff,

01:02:07.086 --> 01:02:12.786
we didn't have people in positions really to counter that.

01:02:13.146 --> 01:02:18.146
And I think now in this day and age, we do have people to counter the misnomers

01:02:18.146 --> 01:02:24.846
and so on. And so I hope that more people like Dr. Joy get engaged.

01:02:25.586 --> 01:02:29.246
You're definitely one of those people, but, you know, more people get engaged

01:02:29.246 --> 01:02:34.466
in making sure that the information that's being programmed into artificial

01:02:34.466 --> 01:02:37.986
intelligence is more balanced and accurate.

01:02:38.446 --> 01:02:42.506
I'm one of the old, I mean, I'm one of the older people, so I'm not going to

01:02:42.506 --> 01:02:46.366
be able to be in this fight for all that much longer. You know,

01:02:46.486 --> 01:02:50.506
we'll see what nature or God grant me.

01:02:50.706 --> 01:03:01.426
But what's thrilled me about the past 25 years is it's not just race,

01:03:01.766 --> 01:03:03.986
but gender in particular.

01:03:04.326 --> 01:03:08.726
I mean, it used to be that most panels, if they had a woman,

01:03:09.026 --> 01:03:13.746
she was a token woman, you know, on the panel.

01:03:13.746 --> 01:03:20.666
And one of my closest colleagues, Anya Kass Pearson, was one of those constant

01:03:20.666 --> 01:03:25.686
token female on panels. I mean, it was sort of obnoxious.

01:03:25.866 --> 01:03:29.566
And Anya did a lot herself to nurture other women coming along.

01:03:29.886 --> 01:03:35.246
But now, it's not even just a question of a token woman on the panel.

01:03:35.626 --> 01:03:36.866
They are brilliant.

01:03:37.746 --> 01:03:41.606
They've had the experience now. They've had the opportunity.

01:03:41.606 --> 01:03:47.466
And though sometimes I think we're leaving the world in a worse shape than it

01:03:47.466 --> 01:03:53.746
was when I came into it, and that was the big aspiration of us 60s types,

01:03:54.426 --> 01:04:02.666
now I look around and the one thing I see is all the brilliant women and African

01:04:02.666 --> 01:04:08.246
and Asian and other peoples who know their stuff.

01:04:09.166 --> 01:04:13.926
They aren't tokens. They are the leaders and that the next generation will have

01:04:13.926 --> 01:04:16.406
that leadership. That speaks well.

01:04:17.266 --> 01:04:22.686
Yeah. So you've spoken before to UN concerning military use of AI.

01:04:23.026 --> 01:04:26.826
What are your biggest ethical concerns in that regard?

01:04:27.606 --> 01:04:32.846
Machines should not be making life and death decisions about humans. Point blank.

01:04:33.526 --> 01:04:36.726
Only humans get to make life and death decisions about you.

01:04:37.566 --> 01:04:43.326
And that begs the question of when the machine is an extension of human will and intention.

01:04:43.846 --> 01:04:49.906
But I think even if the machine is an extension of human will and intention, it's not.

01:04:50.800 --> 01:04:58.100
There needs to be a responsible reflection on the output of the machine before

01:04:58.100 --> 01:05:03.280
humans act on taking a life based on machine output.

01:05:03.700 --> 01:05:09.300
And I don't think that's just a simple question of accuracy or who's better

01:05:09.300 --> 01:05:10.380
at the decision-making.

01:05:10.740 --> 01:05:19.460
I think that's a more moral question about human integrity, conscience.

01:05:20.880 --> 01:05:30.300
Willingness to give due respect to other humans, regardless of whether they agree with them.

01:05:30.840 --> 01:05:36.180
And unfortunately, now we're getting into these technologies like Lavender and

01:05:36.180 --> 01:05:44.380
Where's Daddy and so forth that can attract tens of thousands of people at once.

01:05:44.620 --> 01:05:48.780
And if, for example, one of those people goes into a building,

01:05:49.060 --> 01:05:55.280
match it with that, with these other technologies identifying what's in various

01:05:55.280 --> 01:06:02.120
buildings, and give a command to humans to strike that building.

01:06:02.380 --> 01:06:06.560
And it would be one thing if the humans then took, let's say,

01:06:07.540 --> 01:06:13.740
even 10 minutes to get other information and see if they know how many civilians

01:06:13.740 --> 01:06:18.100
were in that building, and noncombatants or others.

01:06:18.500 --> 01:06:24.000
But from what we're learning, that's not happening. What we're learning is the

01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:26.340
strike orders become pretty perfunctory.

01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:31.120
And to me, that's one of the great tragedies for humanity.

01:06:31.440 --> 01:06:36.080
I mean, that means we're moving into the use of weaponry that,

01:06:36.260 --> 01:06:41.380
I've said this before, but basically that Hitler would have loved,

01:06:41.700 --> 01:06:45.140
and any modern-day genocidal leader will love.

01:06:46.092 --> 01:06:53.472
Because one of the criticisms that's out there is that in Israel's response

01:06:53.472 --> 01:07:03.712
to October 7th is that they're using a lot of AI to make strikes in Gaza and all that.

01:07:03.992 --> 01:07:11.952
And, you know, a lot of people, it's not been confirmed, but many people believe

01:07:11.952 --> 01:07:15.112
that that's what they've been using to… Well,

01:07:15.152 --> 01:07:20.392
we know they do have these weapons like lavender and where's daddy and so forth.

01:07:20.752 --> 01:07:25.212
It's pretty well confirmed. I wouldn't say it's absolute.

01:07:25.532 --> 01:07:30.232
You know, there have been only a few articles written by people who have given

01:07:30.232 --> 01:07:35.352
testimony. And there's a lot of the details we don't have.

01:07:35.672 --> 01:07:41.032
But it looks pretty clear that that's taking place. And it doesn't matter.

01:07:41.692 --> 01:07:46.912
Civilians are still being targeted. This is a violation of international humanitarian law.

01:07:47.352 --> 01:07:54.452
I fully support the Israelis' right to strike back,

01:07:55.092 --> 01:08:03.392
given the horrific nature of what happened in October, but there has to be some restraint.

01:08:03.752 --> 01:08:09.652
And now we are seeing even the Israeli people demonstrate against their government

01:08:09.652 --> 01:08:13.232
and say there is no need for the continuation of this war.

01:08:13.232 --> 01:08:20.192
This is more about what serves the Netanyahu government than what serves Israel.

01:08:21.172 --> 01:08:27.592
Yeah. Yeah. No argument for me on that, whether we were talking about AI or anything else.

01:08:28.612 --> 01:08:35.232
So since this is a political show, talk about the need for ethics in political campaigning.

01:08:35.232 --> 01:08:45.252
Because one of the concerns that, you know, has come up early is how commercials are made, right?

01:08:45.392 --> 01:08:51.852
It's like they'll take my voice and turn it around and make it seem like I said,

01:08:52.112 --> 01:08:55.012
you know, we should all eat dogs and eat cats.

01:08:55.912 --> 01:09:00.212
And, you know, I may have been talking about, you know, the need for more animal

01:09:00.212 --> 01:09:03.652
shelters, but somehow, some way they splice it.

01:09:03.692 --> 01:09:07.232
And, of course, People have been up in arms about that.

01:09:07.332 --> 01:09:15.572
But just talk to me in detail about what are your concerns and how can any suggestions

01:09:15.572 --> 01:09:17.572
of how we can regulate that?

01:09:18.636 --> 01:09:26.476
Yeah, that's not an easy question to answer in terms of how we can regulate it.

01:09:26.656 --> 01:09:33.076
But what's going on? I mean, you could always splice and edit and put together

01:09:33.076 --> 01:09:39.456
a little piece of film that made somebody say something that they didn't say.

01:09:39.656 --> 01:09:43.576
But we now can do that in an instant. We can create deep fakes.

01:09:43.576 --> 01:09:50.996
We can have people give long speeches where their lips are synchronized with

01:09:50.996 --> 01:09:54.256
their words, and they didn't say it.

01:09:54.736 --> 01:10:01.956
So the technologies for disinformation and misinformation have grown exponentially,

01:10:02.556 --> 01:10:07.836
and it's very hard to track what you're getting and what you aren't getting.

01:10:08.796 --> 01:10:14.156
And the old way, at least the way I used to manage this was that if I trusted

01:10:14.156 --> 01:10:19.156
somebody, I tended to go along with their opinions on things that I didn't have

01:10:19.156 --> 01:10:20.496
time to research myself.

01:10:21.396 --> 01:10:24.536
But now you have campaigns of lying

01:10:24.536 --> 01:10:34.316
or distortions or selective picking of information so that it's becoming increasingly

01:10:34.316 --> 01:10:38.376
difficult for people to know what is and what isn't true without doing a lot

01:10:38.376 --> 01:10:43.236
of work themselves or without being sure they have really.

01:10:44.329 --> 01:10:50.289
Trustworthy people to turn to. And the problem is even those we trust the most

01:10:50.289 --> 01:10:56.229
doesn't mean we go along with all their beliefs or understand what they will and will not do.

01:10:56.529 --> 01:11:05.009
So we're moving into this world where trust is at a premium and AI,

01:11:05.009 --> 01:11:12.929
not only in disinformation, but even in real information can still be used just

01:11:12.929 --> 01:11:14.989
merely to manipulate behavior.

01:11:15.549 --> 01:11:22.789
So consider that you're in the mall tomorrow, and suddenly music comes blasting

01:11:22.789 --> 01:11:29.049
out of one of the stores, which just happens to be one of your favorite pieces of music,

01:11:29.329 --> 01:11:31.389
get you dancing or whatever, you know?

01:11:31.769 --> 01:11:37.949
And lo and behold, that store happens to be selling something that you searched

01:11:37.949 --> 01:11:40.669
for on the internet the day before.

01:11:41.149 --> 01:11:46.549
That's the kind of world we're moving into. And that's a pretty hairy world.

01:11:46.629 --> 01:11:51.729
It's no longer that we're training the machines to be as intelligent as us.

01:11:51.969 --> 01:11:59.649
The machines are training us to be as dumb as they want, because in general,

01:11:59.789 --> 01:12:03.589
the machines don't want anything, but those behind those machines,

01:12:03.749 --> 01:12:10.089
those marketing products, It's those trying to persuade us politically want.

01:12:10.869 --> 01:12:14.589
And what are they getting out of it? They're getting all kinds of power.

01:12:15.789 --> 01:12:21.249
Elon Musk spent chump change, $278 million to buy the executive.

01:12:22.069 --> 01:12:28.989
When the tech oligopoly had for years trying to buy at least the legislature

01:12:28.989 --> 01:12:34.529
to ensure that they didn't enact the laws that got in the way of their developments.

01:12:34.529 --> 01:12:39.429
I mean, now we're moved into a universe where...

01:12:40.089 --> 01:12:44.189
Presumably, AI will be generating trillions and trillions of dollars.

01:12:44.649 --> 01:12:52.229
And where is that money going? It's all going to those who hold stock in the

01:12:52.229 --> 01:12:55.289
leading companies, or at least 90% of it is.

01:12:55.669 --> 01:13:03.989
I happened to be at a lunch at the UN, at the ITU, which is International Telecommunication

01:13:03.989 --> 01:13:06.589
Union, and that's part of the UN.

01:13:06.589 --> 01:13:14.469
And they had basically the representatives to the UN in Geneva from all of the

01:13:14.469 --> 01:13:15.829
countries at this lunch.

01:13:16.149 --> 01:13:23.809
And the keynote speaker was a vice president of Amazon Web Services and an official from Microsoft.

01:13:24.289 --> 01:13:29.569
And the guy from Amazon Web Services, after he had waxed poetic about all the

01:13:29.569 --> 01:13:34.849
good things AI was going to do for us, he talked about the trillions of dollars it would generate.

01:13:34.849 --> 01:13:42.629
And the Microsoft guy got up and he talked about how AI was helping companies

01:13:42.629 --> 01:13:44.729
in their energy efficiency.

01:13:45.469 --> 01:13:48.369
And I got up afterwards and I just slammed them both.

01:13:48.529 --> 01:13:52.609
I mean, I said, don't tell us about the trillions of dollars AI is going to

01:13:52.609 --> 01:13:58.409
make when almost none of it is going to go to the two-thirds of the world represented

01:13:58.409 --> 01:14:02.809
by most of these ambassadors here in the room.

01:14:02.809 --> 01:14:08.309
And don't talk to us about AI contributing to energy efficiency when we all

01:14:08.309 --> 01:14:11.309
know AI has become one of the biggest consumers of energy.

01:14:12.349 --> 01:14:17.509
So this is the world we're in. We're in a world where narratives are being written

01:14:17.509 --> 01:14:22.769
for us that don't necessarily meet our interests.

01:14:22.909 --> 01:14:28.209
And the problem with both of those examples is just looking at a little piece of the problem.

01:14:28.349 --> 01:14:33.649
We can always talk about anecdotes and that information that supports my viewpoint.

01:14:34.389 --> 01:14:43.069
But if we don't develop the moral intelligence and the self-understanding to

01:14:43.069 --> 01:14:48.889
counteract this piecemeal analysis of the problems at hand,

01:14:49.089 --> 01:14:55.609
we certainly aren't going to survive in any meaningful way the generation of

01:14:55.609 --> 01:14:57.649
AI and other emerging technologies.

01:14:59.066 --> 01:15:04.266
Somebody asked you a question I asked another guest. Who is a better futurist,

01:15:04.406 --> 01:15:07.466
you or Elon Musk, and why?

01:15:09.426 --> 01:15:12.546
I don't know how to answer that question.

01:15:13.046 --> 01:15:17.046
You know, I mean, the problem is none of us is everything.

01:15:17.366 --> 01:15:20.486
None of us really knows what the future is going to be.

01:15:20.786 --> 01:15:26.066
There's some heavy predictions out there. We all select information that feeds

01:15:26.066 --> 01:15:28.126
our own wishes and desires.

01:15:28.126 --> 01:15:34.986
I just happen to be the guy who's now made a career of being the gadfly,

01:15:35.286 --> 01:15:38.666
of underscoring for years what's not getting attention.

01:15:39.906 --> 01:15:47.326
Elon Musk is, you know, building the companies that provide the technologies

01:15:47.326 --> 01:15:49.606
of the future that he wants, you know.

01:15:49.606 --> 01:15:58.586
So, I think most people would pick Elon Musk, or at least would have until five months ago.

01:16:00.406 --> 01:16:06.606
If not a bad futurist, now that they've got to know him, they might think better of that.

01:16:06.826 --> 01:16:14.446
I think if it comes to the good of humanity, people like me are head and shoulders above Elon Musk.

01:16:15.206 --> 01:16:21.666
But if it comes to actually the realization of futuristic gadgets, yes, of course, Elon.

01:16:22.426 --> 01:16:28.706
Yeah, yeah, I got you. And, you know, that brings into the perspective,

01:16:29.146 --> 01:16:31.586
right? Because you're going to have people.

01:16:31.906 --> 01:16:34.686
Can I add one thing to that? Go ahead.

01:16:35.946 --> 01:16:40.286
I may have given myself a little praise, but if it's a question of who's winning,

01:16:41.466 --> 01:16:43.586
clearly it's the attack oligopoly.

01:16:44.446 --> 01:16:49.706
I mean, those of us who are trying to underscore what requires attention,

01:16:50.106 --> 01:16:55.386
the things that require attention aren't getting anywhere near the attention they need.

01:16:56.276 --> 01:16:59.776
Yeah. And, you know, and that's what I was going to say about the perspective.

01:17:00.336 --> 01:17:04.476
You know, I'm a I'm a big science fiction guy. And, you know,

01:17:04.556 --> 01:17:07.516
one of my favorites is is the Star Wars franchise.

01:17:08.296 --> 01:17:13.316
And it's like, you know, the Empire has all the cool stuff.

01:17:13.476 --> 01:17:19.316
They got the Death Star and all the, you know, all that every all the all the things.

01:17:19.516 --> 01:17:24.656
And, you know, the rebels don't have as much technology, but they but they have

01:17:24.656 --> 01:17:27.256
the moral compass. to challenge it.

01:17:28.016 --> 01:17:32.916
And, you know, when we watch the movies, we want the moral compass to win,

01:17:33.176 --> 01:17:37.296
but in real life, eh, not so much.

01:17:37.876 --> 01:17:42.636
So, you know, I appreciate how introspective you were with that answer because,

01:17:42.936 --> 01:17:46.476
you know, a lot of us, like I said, we like the cool stuff.

01:17:46.616 --> 01:17:50.036
The fact that we're doing this interview via technology, right?

01:17:50.516 --> 01:17:58.676
That's cool. But, you know, I appreciate you because you remind us,

01:17:58.716 --> 01:18:01.036
it's a biblical principle,

01:18:01.536 --> 01:18:05.596
you know, what is it to gain the whole world if you lose your soul,

01:18:05.936 --> 01:18:07.576
right? If you lose that morality.

01:18:08.016 --> 01:18:17.436
So I appreciate gadflies like you who remind us, remind us that there has to be a balance.

01:18:18.496 --> 01:18:21.996
I think there's also a thing in the kind of self-understanding we're going to

01:18:21.996 --> 01:18:25.356
need to be able to battle off everything that's trying to manipulate us,

01:18:25.656 --> 01:18:31.556
not battle off, but just diffuse its impact upon us, is probably a revival of

01:18:31.556 --> 01:18:35.216
what used to be called virtue ethics or, you know,

01:18:35.756 --> 01:18:37.676
or not losing your soul.

01:18:38.876 --> 01:18:43.916
The recognition that that's pointing to something, whether we have souls or

01:18:43.916 --> 01:18:45.816
not, I'm not concerned with that.

01:18:46.096 --> 01:18:52.696
You know, people will debate that. But there's something intrinsic to us that

01:18:52.696 --> 01:18:55.876
functions like a moral barometer,

01:18:55.876 --> 01:19:03.556
even if there is no such thing as a moral compass or anything like that.

01:19:03.696 --> 01:19:07.196
And I call that the need for a silent ethic.

01:19:08.216 --> 01:19:14.936
I think we need that kind of internal re-engagement with life.

01:19:16.316 --> 01:19:22.196
And we need to complement that with a kind of ethical analysis.

01:19:22.836 --> 01:19:26.536
It doesn't only look at what the greatest good for the greatest number is,

01:19:26.656 --> 01:19:33.376
but also looks at the price we pay for each option we choose.

01:19:33.376 --> 01:19:35.396
So what goes wrong or who loses?

01:19:36.076 --> 01:19:44.336
My own feeling is if we don't also speak to the detriments of the choice we

01:19:44.336 --> 01:19:48.936
finally make and ameliorate those, lessen those.

01:19:48.936 --> 01:19:52.136
There's no way we can call our action the world.

01:19:53.296 --> 01:20:02.256
Yeah. Well, Wendell Wallach, the time that we have is definitely not as appropriate

01:20:02.256 --> 01:20:06.136
to cover everything as intensely as we should.

01:20:06.416 --> 01:20:09.256
But I do appreciate the time that you gave me.

01:20:09.856 --> 01:20:14.196
And in this brief time that I've had a chance to talk with you,

01:20:14.396 --> 01:20:17.296
I understand why people hold you in such high regard.

01:20:18.156 --> 01:20:22.776
And again, I am honored that you came on the podcast And I am honored that you

01:20:22.776 --> 01:20:26.756
are doing the work That you have committed yourself to do,

01:20:27.336 --> 01:20:30.376
You stated you don't know how much longer you have But

01:20:30.376 --> 01:20:36.276
I will say that with utmost confidence That with time you do have left That

01:20:36.276 --> 01:20:41.036
you're going to maximize it And continue to educate us And continue to keep

01:20:41.036 --> 01:20:45.476
us balanced and on the right path So thank you for coming on the podcast And

01:20:45.476 --> 01:20:48.576
thank you for doing what you're doing Thank you ever so much.

01:20:48.936 --> 01:20:56.136
You know, any opportunity to speak out and have one more person start to think about these things.

01:20:58.976 --> 01:21:06.396
I really appreciate that you have a podcast where you can bring this vast body

01:21:06.396 --> 01:21:10.236
of illumination to the difficult political challenges we're covering.

01:21:10.756 --> 01:21:14.996
So if people, before you go, if people want to reach out to you,

01:21:14.996 --> 01:21:18.456
If people want to get in touch with you and stuff, how can they do that?

01:21:18.896 --> 01:21:24.396
Well, they can do that through my email, wwallack.com,

01:21:24.996 --> 01:21:35.036
wwallack, excuse me, at comcast.net or wendell.wallack at yale.edu or through LinkedIn.

01:21:35.036 --> 01:21:37.996
Those are kind of ways to reach me.

01:21:38.216 --> 01:21:43.056
And unfortunately, I'm meeting too many people and can't always respond.

01:21:43.056 --> 01:21:49.916
So if there's a specific reason or, you know, they say they've listened to this

01:21:49.916 --> 01:21:54.996
podcast, then, you know, then that's just helpful for me to identify with me.

01:21:55.996 --> 01:21:58.356
Yes, sir. All right. Yes, sir.

01:21:58.456 --> 01:22:02.396
Well, again, thank you for coming on and appreciate you taking the time.

01:22:03.276 --> 01:22:05.636
All right, guys. We're going to catch you all on the other side.

01:22:06.960 --> 01:22:17.520
Music.

01:22:17.782 --> 01:22:24.482
All right, and we are back. So I want to thank Denise Love Hewitt and Wendell

01:22:24.482 --> 01:22:27.522
Wallach for taking the time out to come on the podcast.

01:22:28.462 --> 01:22:36.382
It is really, really an honor to have people like that come on,

01:22:36.582 --> 01:22:42.542
not just these two guests, but all the guests that I've been privileged to have on the podcast.

01:22:42.542 --> 01:22:48.602
But in this particular episode, to have both Denise and Wendell come on and

01:22:48.602 --> 01:22:55.642
to be so gracious with their time and their expertise and their commitment to what they're doing,

01:22:56.102 --> 01:23:03.142
because they've got other things to do, but to set aside time to talk to us

01:23:03.142 --> 01:23:10.462
and kind of explain why they're doing what they're doing and how it relates to all of us.

01:23:10.462 --> 01:23:15.262
But particularly those of us in African-American community, you know,

01:23:15.402 --> 01:23:19.322
it's in the political realm. It's really, really important.

01:23:19.562 --> 01:23:23.142
So I thank them again for coming on.

01:23:24.702 --> 01:23:31.602
So I want to talk just real quickly because I'm trying to really control the motions per se.

01:23:31.602 --> 01:23:41.302
But, you know, dealing with this situation with Kilmar Abrego-Garcee.

01:23:42.362 --> 01:23:47.802
So some of you may know that at one time in my life, I was a paralegal for the

01:23:47.802 --> 01:23:49.302
Mississippi Immigrants Rights Alliance.

01:23:50.322 --> 01:23:54.322
Shout out to Bill and Patricia for the work that they've been doing all these

01:23:54.322 --> 01:23:59.402
years to not only help people get

01:23:59.402 --> 01:24:03.382
all their paperwork, And it's a lot of paperwork that people have to do,

01:24:03.722 --> 01:24:06.282
especially those folks who are seeking asylum.

01:24:06.702 --> 01:24:10.502
It's a lot of paperwork. There is money involved, right?

01:24:11.842 --> 01:24:20.682
And so it's just a lot of work that needs to be done to help people to go through

01:24:20.682 --> 01:24:23.102
the process legally in the United States,

01:24:23.102 --> 01:24:27.802
to become either a permanent resident or a citizen, or even sometimes just to

01:24:27.802 --> 01:24:29.562
get a student or work visa, right?

01:24:30.722 --> 01:24:36.622
There's a lot of work to be done, and there's a lot of flaws in the system that should be addressed.

01:24:36.862 --> 01:24:41.062
But, you know, right now we've got an administration that basically just wants

01:24:41.062 --> 01:24:43.982
to kick everybody out that's brown and black.

01:24:46.422 --> 01:24:51.962
Or any other shade to the rainbow, to be honest. And now this president is talking

01:24:51.962 --> 01:24:56.822
about deporting Americans, but we'll get into that in a minute. Yeah.

01:24:57.735 --> 01:25:03.575
You know, so anytime there's immigration issues because of that time I spent,

01:25:03.875 --> 01:25:07.055
I was really, really made sensitive to that.

01:25:07.175 --> 01:25:10.975
It was one thing to be a politician and to speak to groups and talk about issues

01:25:10.975 --> 01:25:16.655
and deal with bills on the floor, but to actually do the work and really get

01:25:16.655 --> 01:25:21.055
to know people who are trying to do the right thing and watch all the hoops

01:25:21.055 --> 01:25:22.155
that they have to jump through.

01:25:22.155 --> 01:25:28.215
And to celebrate people when they get their permanent residency or their citizenship.

01:25:28.615 --> 01:25:34.315
You know, it's ups and downs. It's triumphs and tragedies in that process.

01:25:35.195 --> 01:25:41.395
So, again, like I said, there's some work that needs to be done to make it simpler,

01:25:42.775 --> 01:25:44.775
to make it processed better.

01:25:45.755 --> 01:25:51.835
But we're not going to do it just being hateful, spiteful, and reckless.

01:25:53.095 --> 01:25:57.355
And the case with Mr. Abrego Garcia is that kind of case.

01:25:57.755 --> 01:26:08.095
So if you understand all this, you know, he was detained.

01:26:09.675 --> 01:26:18.435
And his situation was that he is not a legal immigrant. He is not a documented immigrant.

01:26:19.975 --> 01:26:28.095
His situation was he fled his country, El Salvador, and he was,

01:26:28.095 --> 01:26:29.295
you know, being threatened,

01:26:30.035 --> 01:26:34.655
you know, either trying to be initiated in a gang or, you know,

01:26:34.915 --> 01:26:36.595
threats against his family or both.

01:26:36.595 --> 01:26:39.775
Got out of El Salvador, got to the United States.

01:26:40.935 --> 01:26:47.315
And first time he was detained, once he explained his situation,

01:26:47.315 --> 01:26:51.075
he was given an exemption to stay.

01:26:53.655 --> 01:26:59.015
That he was given an order not to be sent back to his home country.

01:26:59.955 --> 01:27:07.875
So in the process of that, he got married, started a family, was been working.

01:27:08.835 --> 01:27:14.435
Don't know any details about any further paperwork he may have done.

01:27:14.435 --> 01:27:19.315
He may have been in the process of trying to get in asylum. Don't know.

01:27:19.895 --> 01:27:22.075
Haven't really talked about that in the news.

01:27:23.035 --> 01:27:30.215
But he was given a status, a protected status to stay, which was kind of a unique

01:27:30.215 --> 01:27:35.375
status that can be given the people that are in dire situations, right,

01:27:35.975 --> 01:27:38.655
that have not started the asylum process.

01:27:39.635 --> 01:27:45.135
But nonetheless, he's living his life, and then, of course, Donald Trump gets reelected.

01:27:45.635 --> 01:27:51.915
And so now, you know, he got rounded up with some other folks again,

01:27:51.915 --> 01:27:52.555
and he's not going to be able to,

01:27:53.729 --> 01:28:00.429
And the way the story goes from what I understand is that when they initially

01:28:00.429 --> 01:28:05.949
had a group of people to be sent to El Salvador, he was not on that list.

01:28:06.969 --> 01:28:10.829
But somehow, some way, he got bumped up.

01:28:11.869 --> 01:28:17.649
Either people they thought they had was not in their custody or whatever case

01:28:17.649 --> 01:28:22.089
may be, but they ended up finding a spot on the plane for him.

01:28:23.309 --> 01:28:27.989
And that's how he ended up in El Salvador. If everything had gone according

01:28:27.989 --> 01:28:34.929
to, I guess, whatever their plan was, he would still have been in the tension in the United States.

01:28:35.049 --> 01:28:41.789
But because some quirky way space was available, they just threw him on the plane too.

01:28:42.489 --> 01:28:44.089
And that's how he ended up there.

01:28:46.689 --> 01:28:54.789
And then once they admitted, so I want you to understand, How rare of an occurrence that is.

01:28:55.169 --> 01:28:59.949
This administration admitted to making a mistake. Now, they've made a lot of

01:28:59.949 --> 01:29:02.489
them, but they will never acknowledge them for the most part.

01:29:02.789 --> 01:29:06.089
But this one time, they admitted that they made a mistake.

01:29:06.549 --> 01:29:11.249
But being the prideful people they are, they won't correct a mistake.

01:29:13.210 --> 01:29:16.850
You know, so, you know, and there could have been cool ways to do it.

01:29:17.490 --> 01:29:22.450
President of El Salvador, Bukele, he came to the United States,

01:29:22.930 --> 01:29:26.330
said, hey, you know, stick him on a plane and, you know, we'll get him back.

01:29:26.490 --> 01:29:32.130
We'll take him, you know, you land in Dulles or Reagan.

01:29:32.870 --> 01:29:36.550
You know, we grab him, you know, we take you in the limo and head to the White

01:29:36.550 --> 01:29:39.790
House and we'll grab him and put him back in detention or whatever.

01:29:40.650 --> 01:29:44.910
You know, at least he's back in the United States. And he's out of the country

01:29:44.910 --> 01:29:52.010
that he fled from due to gang violence, right? It could very easily have done that.

01:29:52.590 --> 01:29:59.430
But no, they didn't do that. And Bukele is just a younger Latino version of

01:29:59.430 --> 01:30:05.850
Trump, you know, arrogant, don't admit to mistakes. You know, you know the type.

01:30:07.510 --> 01:30:13.050
And I noticed a reporter that asked Zelensky how come he wasn't wearing a suit.

01:30:13.050 --> 01:30:20.050
Didn't ask Bukele the same question, but that's just as trivial as they are.

01:30:20.190 --> 01:30:24.790
So it is what it is. But anyway, so Bukele said, well, you know,

01:30:24.970 --> 01:30:29.030
he's, you know, who are we to send a terrorist back to the United States?

01:30:29.150 --> 01:30:33.070
Well, first of all, you haven't had any trial to prove that he was a terrorist.

01:30:33.270 --> 01:30:39.010
So good luck on that as far as any defamation lawsuits go.

01:30:39.190 --> 01:30:45.090
But, you know, could very easily say, hey, look, man, I know you're catching some flack.

01:30:45.210 --> 01:30:47.710
Well, he can fly back with me and y'all deal with him.

01:30:48.670 --> 01:30:54.610
You know, whatever. And it doesn't impact the money that you've given us to

01:30:54.610 --> 01:30:57.350
house these people, which is like $6 million.

01:30:57.790 --> 01:31:01.610
$6 million American taxpayer dollars, by the way. It's not coming out of Elon Musk's pocket.

01:31:02.410 --> 01:31:05.450
It's not coming out of Donald Trump's pocket. It's coming out of the taxpayers.

01:31:05.590 --> 01:31:14.850
$6 million taxpayers' money we're paying another country to house people that we round up and deport.

01:31:15.870 --> 01:31:19.290
So anyway, could have solved the situation that way.

01:31:19.910 --> 01:31:26.550
So we had a U.S. senator go down, Senator Van Hollen, who was senator from Maryland

01:31:26.550 --> 01:31:29.250
where Mr. Abrego Garcia was living.

01:31:30.970 --> 01:31:41.170
And through his tenacious character, He was able to at least see Mr.

01:31:41.250 --> 01:31:47.090
Abrego Garcia, know that he's alive, that he's as well as he can be.

01:31:47.890 --> 01:31:52.970
And I guess when the senator comes back as we're taping this,

01:31:53.190 --> 01:31:57.570
he's going to let us know what the conversation was about.

01:31:58.310 --> 01:32:03.790
What he can. I'm sure he's going to talk to the lawyers to kind of double check

01:32:03.790 --> 01:32:07.830
and make sure certain things are said or, excuse me, not said.

01:32:09.222 --> 01:32:15.582
So anyway, but from the pictures, we see that, you know, the most important

01:32:15.582 --> 01:32:16.902
thing is because, of course, there

01:32:16.902 --> 01:32:21.362
were rumors that the young man was unalived, as the young people say.

01:32:21.582 --> 01:32:29.522
But he's still with us, and he looks relatively healthy compared to,

01:32:29.522 --> 01:32:36.102
you know, some of the conditions that we've heard about that particular prison in El Salvador.

01:32:36.102 --> 01:32:43.342
So, again, if you could make the accommodations to do that, you could have worked

01:32:43.342 --> 01:32:45.162
out some kind of way with, hey, look,

01:32:46.362 --> 01:32:52.082
you know, let him fly back with the senator, you know, and at that point,

01:32:52.662 --> 01:32:58.102
again, you can get him and let the senator go back to, you know, his home.

01:32:58.102 --> 01:33:00.702
And, you know, you meet Mr.

01:33:00.782 --> 01:33:08.202
Abreu Garcia, and you put him in detention here in the United States and let the due process happen.

01:33:08.742 --> 01:33:11.702
But didn't do that. So

01:33:11.702 --> 01:33:22.342
now this man is in a country that he was trying to get away from in probably

01:33:22.342 --> 01:33:27.522
one of the worst prisons where more than likely some of the gang members that

01:33:27.522 --> 01:33:29.702
he was trying to get away from are housed.

01:33:32.122 --> 01:33:38.302
Now, I assume that they're separating the population from the detainees,

01:33:38.562 --> 01:33:39.542
from these gang members.

01:33:39.542 --> 01:33:44.982
I don't know, you know, because if they've got people from the Venezuelan gang,

01:33:45.222 --> 01:33:50.022
it would be smart to keep them away from an El Salvadoran gang just on GP.

01:33:52.442 --> 01:33:56.842
But it is what it is. So, you know.

01:33:58.771 --> 01:34:06.551
We have the U.S. Supreme Court now, and now an appellate court is weighed in.

01:34:07.191 --> 01:34:10.691
A district court already threw down the gauntlet that is like,

01:34:10.771 --> 01:34:11.991
look, you made a mistake.

01:34:13.031 --> 01:34:18.151
He is entitled to due process. Bring him back and let him go through the process.

01:34:19.231 --> 01:34:26.351
This administration is like, make us, right? They're daring the court to do something.

01:34:27.671 --> 01:34:33.951
And the question becomes, can the court do anything other than put them in contempt?

01:34:34.851 --> 01:34:40.411
But, you know, it's like, is anybody going to jail for contempt?

01:34:40.751 --> 01:34:44.131
Or is anybody going to pay a fine? Or it's just going to be,

01:34:44.431 --> 01:34:47.491
well, we held them in contempt and that's all we can do.

01:34:48.191 --> 01:34:54.131
And if there's nothing that can be done to force this administration to follow a ruling of a court.

01:34:56.151 --> 01:34:59.651
Well, now, ladies and gentlemen, that is a constitutional crisis.

01:35:00.331 --> 01:35:08.191
Now, I know people don't want to use that phrase because it implies chaos and anarchy.

01:35:08.691 --> 01:35:13.011
And, you know, most people that have envisioned the constitutional crisis as

01:35:13.011 --> 01:35:16.071
envisioned like end of the world doomsday scenario.

01:35:17.671 --> 01:35:22.711
And Donald Trump is not the first president to challenge the court to make him do something.

01:35:24.491 --> 01:35:29.691
However, as volatile as these times are, as dangerous as these times are,

01:35:29.871 --> 01:35:37.611
as unpredictable as these times are, I don't think that's the right thing to do.

01:35:38.571 --> 01:35:44.391
You know, if it was like, you know, 20,000 people.

01:35:46.654 --> 01:35:53.134
That you've made a mistake on logistically trying to get all that together.

01:35:53.774 --> 01:35:59.134
Yeah. We'll take some time, but we're talking about one person and you've had

01:35:59.134 --> 01:36:06.014
two opportunities to slide them back in, you know, bring that person back and,

01:36:06.114 --> 01:36:08.574
and you didn't take advantage of that.

01:36:09.034 --> 01:36:15.214
Other presidents would have done that just to show that they have some sense of compassion.

01:36:16.054 --> 01:36:22.034
But somehow, someway, the president has gauged his supporters as having no compassion

01:36:22.034 --> 01:36:28.934
and no empathy for this particular case.

01:36:28.934 --> 01:36:31.874
So he's just going to be defiant.

01:36:32.374 --> 01:36:37.734
And, you know, you got lawyers who obviously don't care if they practice law

01:36:37.734 --> 01:36:43.594
again once they're out of the Trump administration, openly defying the court.

01:36:46.034 --> 01:36:49.814
You know, and, you know,

01:36:49.914 --> 01:36:54.614
you got a secretary of state who is a child of immigrants,

01:36:54.614 --> 01:37:03.154
who is acting like that Abrego Garcia was the worst thing to ever happen to

01:37:03.154 --> 01:37:07.374
this country and is not doing anything about it.

01:37:07.374 --> 01:37:14.774
So, you know, it's just, people talk about humility and, you know,

01:37:14.874 --> 01:37:20.034
and try to discount it, you know, as, well, you can't be so humble if you're

01:37:20.034 --> 01:37:21.414
going to be in politics and all that.

01:37:21.854 --> 01:37:26.034
Actually, yes, you can. It's actually an endearing quality if you're humble,

01:37:26.274 --> 01:37:30.154
if you show some humility, if you show some compassion. And.

01:37:31.738 --> 01:37:36.378
And the big picture of things, if they can get away with that,

01:37:36.938 --> 01:37:41.018
what does that mean for the rest of us? Right.

01:37:42.598 --> 01:37:51.538
You know, does that mean we can start deporting Americans who disagree with the president?

01:37:51.938 --> 01:37:57.538
Now, he said, oh, no, we're just only going to send the worst people or whatever.

01:38:00.038 --> 01:38:03.858
Based on his actions, the worst people in Donald Trump's world are people that

01:38:03.858 --> 01:38:08.278
tell him that he's wrong or people that don't agree with him. Right.

01:38:10.138 --> 01:38:13.338
So that should worry a lot of folks.

01:38:13.738 --> 01:38:17.218
There's at least 76 million people that did not want him to be president.

01:38:17.598 --> 01:38:19.438
Is he going to deport all of us?

01:38:20.138 --> 01:38:25.718
You know, is he going to try to find countries where he can stick us in so he

01:38:25.718 --> 01:38:31.438
can do what he wants to do for the remainder of his term or even be audacious

01:38:31.438 --> 01:38:35.718
enough to go for a third term unconstitutionally?

01:38:36.438 --> 01:38:42.278
I mean, Abrego Garcia is an individual, but he represents so much more than that.

01:38:42.518 --> 01:38:46.878
And I need people to understand that. This is not just an isolated incident.

01:38:47.718 --> 01:38:54.778
This is a test case because if this administration can get away with defying

01:38:54.778 --> 01:39:00.078
the courts, you know, the last judge that laid into the administration was a

01:39:00.078 --> 01:39:01.738
Reagan appointee, for crying out loud.

01:39:02.198 --> 01:39:09.318
If he can get away with defying the judicial system, then there's really no holds barred.

01:39:09.358 --> 01:39:13.318
It was one thing bad enough for Supreme Court to give him immunity for certain

01:39:13.318 --> 01:39:15.818
actions being president.

01:39:16.878 --> 01:39:23.518
But for him to just totally disregard the judiciary altogether because they

01:39:23.518 --> 01:39:27.218
don't agree with his position,

01:39:27.218 --> 01:39:31.878
that they didn't have the legal argument to win them over,

01:39:32.538 --> 01:39:36.698
right, then that's dangerous for all of us.

01:39:37.558 --> 01:39:41.358
Now, for those of y'all who say, well, you know, Donald Trump ain't going to

01:39:41.358 --> 01:39:42.798
do nothing to me. I supported him.

01:39:43.458 --> 01:39:47.238
Ask the people who just got fired. Are they immune?

01:39:48.098 --> 01:39:52.738
You know, people that had Trump flags in the yards and was working for the federal

01:39:52.738 --> 01:39:56.218
government are now in the unemployment line, literally.

01:39:57.578 --> 01:40:02.278
So don't don't get this false insecurity because you supported him,

01:40:02.738 --> 01:40:05.138
especially those of you who are of color.

01:40:05.878 --> 01:40:09.398
He's not going to do anything to you. You are sadly mistaken.

01:40:09.618 --> 01:40:14.338
Ask those Venezuelans who danced and sang for President Trump.

01:40:15.642 --> 01:40:19.442
Then he took away their temporary protected status, right?

01:40:19.982 --> 01:40:25.042
Ask them how they're feeling right now. The Cubans, the Haitians,

01:40:25.582 --> 01:40:26.902
ask them how they're feeling.

01:40:27.882 --> 01:40:32.102
You know, I'm sure the Ukrainians that are here, I think he's actually done

01:40:32.102 --> 01:40:34.482
something taking away their status, right?

01:40:35.282 --> 01:40:44.902
Guys, this is really happening. And if your echo chamber is Fox and OAN and

01:40:44.902 --> 01:40:49.122
Newsmax and whatever else, Alex Jones, all these people,

01:40:50.182 --> 01:40:55.362
Charlie Kirk, Ben Shapiro, some other Benny, Scott Sanders.

01:40:55.362 --> 01:41:02.962
I mean, if that's your echo chamber, I get that you're getting a different version

01:41:02.962 --> 01:41:07.222
of the story, but I really, really want to implore you.

01:41:07.382 --> 01:41:11.782
And if you're not listening to the podcast, those who are listening that know

01:41:11.782 --> 01:41:16.782
people like that, please convey to them that there's more to the story than what they're getting.

01:41:18.082 --> 01:41:27.642
And, you know, it's just like, you know, the minute that people started showing some empathy for Mr.

01:41:27.702 --> 01:41:33.262
Abrego Garcia, then all of a sudden now he's a wife beater, right? A domestic abuser.

01:41:34.502 --> 01:41:37.802
So now you're trying to justify kicking him out with, you know,

01:41:37.882 --> 01:41:43.122
you could have brought that up in a trial instead of kicking him out and then

01:41:43.122 --> 01:41:45.102
saying, oh, yeah, well, he did this. He did that.

01:41:45.842 --> 01:41:49.262
See, because when the public starts, you know, as a black person,

01:41:49.502 --> 01:41:54.322
when the public starts siding with an unarmed black man that's been killed by

01:41:54.322 --> 01:42:00.282
the police, first thing the news tries to do is say, well, you know, here's a mugshot.

01:42:01.242 --> 01:42:03.422
This person's been in trouble with the law before.

01:42:04.982 --> 01:42:10.782
You know, this person is not a saint. Right.

01:42:11.982 --> 01:42:18.082
So human beings are not limited to showing empathy to saints.

01:42:18.722 --> 01:42:23.202
There are people who empathize with the Menendez brothers. Right.

01:42:24.022 --> 01:42:29.582
We're not we're not limited to showing empathy for saints.

01:42:30.202 --> 01:42:33.142
We empathize with people who have been done wrong.

01:42:34.242 --> 01:42:38.362
And I don't know what household a lot of them grew up in, but the household

01:42:38.362 --> 01:42:43.862
I grew up in. And always try to remind us that two wrongs will make a right, you know.

01:42:45.070 --> 01:42:50.210
If he is what y'all say he is, then prove it in a court of law.

01:42:50.550 --> 01:42:54.170
Don't just grab him off the street and send him off to some other country and

01:42:54.170 --> 01:42:55.810
say, oh, well, you know, ain't nothing we could do.

01:42:56.890 --> 01:43:02.990
He had protection by this government and this government, this new administration

01:43:02.990 --> 01:43:08.190
just basically ignored that protection, just like they're doing other people.

01:43:10.470 --> 01:43:16.250
So, you know, we, as black people, have seen this song and dance before.

01:43:16.910 --> 01:43:25.050
And whatever your position is on immigration, do understand that if we are now

01:43:25.050 --> 01:43:31.010
in a situation where the president doesn't have to adhere to court decisions,

01:43:31.010 --> 01:43:33.530
that's going to be a problem for you.

01:43:34.350 --> 01:43:40.090
It's going to be a huge problem for you, especially if you're a member of a

01:43:40.090 --> 01:43:42.050
black community that's an activist,

01:43:42.510 --> 01:43:46.270
that's out here challenging this administration, that's out here challenging

01:43:46.270 --> 01:43:53.630
these policies, that are asking for reforms to things that are supposed to be working for us.

01:43:55.530 --> 01:44:01.470
In the meantime, they're cutting Medicaid and they're talking about getting

01:44:01.470 --> 01:44:05.510
rid of Head Start and all that stuff. This is the typical playbook stuff, right?

01:44:06.930 --> 01:44:10.930
And then, you know, Gavin Newsom, I don't know what he's trying to do.

01:44:11.110 --> 01:44:13.210
I guess he's trying to run for president now.

01:44:13.410 --> 01:44:18.850
But, you know, he says that this whole Abrego Garcia situation is a distraction.

01:44:19.730 --> 01:44:23.970
It might be a distraction for you and what you're trying to achieve.

01:44:23.970 --> 01:44:27.430
It may be a distraction for you that you don't want to answer particular questions

01:44:27.430 --> 01:44:32.790
considering how big a Latino population you have in your state, Governor.

01:44:33.530 --> 01:44:39.530
But it is the very essence of what we were talking about when we said we did

01:44:39.530 --> 01:44:41.130
not want this man president again.

01:44:41.590 --> 01:44:46.230
This very isolated incident, because it really isn't isolated.

01:44:47.090 --> 01:44:50.290
If he can get away with this, Katie Bartador.

01:44:51.450 --> 01:44:55.110
He's already proven he's trying to bully the press. He's trying to bully the

01:44:55.110 --> 01:44:59.790
Federal Reserve chair, saying he's slow and all this stuff.

01:45:00.330 --> 01:45:03.410
And Donald Trump has no concept of what that man is doing.

01:45:03.590 --> 01:45:11.190
That man, Chairman Powell, has done as much as any American can during his tenure

01:45:11.190 --> 01:45:12.710
to keep everything together.

01:45:14.010 --> 01:45:18.750
And no, the financial system is not perfect, neither is judicial system or any

01:45:18.750 --> 01:45:20.750
other institution we have in the United States.

01:45:21.110 --> 01:45:25.970
But there are some people that are really trying to do the best they can to

01:45:25.970 --> 01:45:28.410
do their job and to be fair.

01:45:29.290 --> 01:45:32.650
If they come up short, it won't be because of lack of effort.

01:45:34.142 --> 01:45:40.282
President, on the other hand, that's not the case. This is deliberately an attempt

01:45:40.282 --> 01:45:51.522
to maintain power and to punish anyone or anything that is a threat to his vision of the United States.

01:45:52.442 --> 01:46:00.642
And it's ironic that all this stuff is falling into play 250 years after we

01:46:00.642 --> 01:46:05.542
told a tyrant that we didn't want to be his subjects anymore.

01:46:07.242 --> 01:46:15.462
Literally, 250 years ago, as this podcast is going to air, is basically the

01:46:15.462 --> 01:46:19.042
250th anniversary of the Battle of Lexington and Concord.

01:46:19.422 --> 01:46:23.402
The first decisive battle for American independence.

01:46:24.382 --> 01:46:29.862
And now that very independence is being threatened within. Abraham Lincoln was right.

01:46:30.422 --> 01:46:33.802
If this country is going to fall, it's going to fall from within.

01:46:35.462 --> 01:46:39.482
And I'm not trying to aid and abet in that fall.

01:46:39.822 --> 01:46:46.642
I'm trying to do my best with my voice to preserve the democracy we have so

01:46:46.642 --> 01:46:49.802
that we continue to have a chance to make all of our lives better.

01:46:50.382 --> 01:46:53.702
Because if we're under any kind of tyrant, whether it's Donald Trump or anybody

01:46:53.702 --> 01:46:58.022
else, those chances diminish significantly.

01:46:58.982 --> 01:47:05.102
And it's happening in real time. And whatever false pablum that people are getting

01:47:05.102 --> 01:47:10.342
in that other echo chamber, pain is going to hit pretty soon.

01:47:10.662 --> 01:47:15.362
Because you can't be a tyrant and not subjugate everybody.

01:47:16.182 --> 01:47:19.422
You can't just subjugate a few people. You have to subjugate everybody.

01:47:19.422 --> 01:47:26.082
So, you know, even during the revolution, there were what we call Tories,

01:47:26.302 --> 01:47:30.482
people that still wanted to be under the rule of King George. We get that.

01:47:31.242 --> 01:47:36.242
But, you know, history dictated that we would become our own nation,

01:47:36.942 --> 01:47:42.442
a symbol that you don't have to have a strong ruler to have a strong government.

01:47:44.202 --> 01:47:49.562
So you can be like Gavin Newsom and dismiss it and say that this is a distraction.

01:47:49.562 --> 01:47:55.362
You can say, well, you know, that's the Latino's problem. That's not a black problem, whatever.

01:47:55.782 --> 01:47:58.082
You can do that, but you do it at your own peril.

01:47:58.782 --> 01:48:02.142
If the president of the United States can ignore the U.S.

01:48:02.242 --> 01:48:07.902
Supreme Court and control Congress, that's not good for us.

01:48:08.782 --> 01:48:12.242
It's not good for us as black people. That's not good for us as Americans.

01:48:14.262 --> 01:48:21.822
Period. So pay attention, watch how this thing plays out, and just be ready

01:48:21.822 --> 01:48:25.382
to deal with it effectively.

01:48:26.102 --> 01:48:28.742
Thank you for listening. Until next time.

01:48:31.440 --> 01:49:17.058
Music.