Carceral Apartheid Featuring Dr. Brittany Friedman

WEBVTT

00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:06.117
Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

00:00:06.417 --> 00:00:08.977
I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

00:00:09.337 --> 00:00:12.737
If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.

00:00:13.257 --> 00:00:19.377
First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash amomentwitherikfleming.

00:00:19.757 --> 00:00:24.637
Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak

00:00:24.637 --> 00:00:27.957
truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.

00:00:28.557 --> 00:00:32.837
Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you

00:00:32.837 --> 00:00:35.577
listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.

00:00:36.437 --> 00:00:41.917
Third, go to the website, momenteric.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,

00:00:42.297 --> 00:00:47.257
leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

00:00:47.857 --> 00:00:51.877
Lastly, don't keep this a secret like it's your own personal guilty pleasure.

00:00:52.577 --> 00:00:57.097
Tell someone else about the podcast. Encourage others to listen to the podcast

00:00:57.097 --> 00:01:02.417
and share the podcast on your social media platforms, because it is time to

00:01:02.417 --> 00:01:04.177
make this moment a movement.

00:01:04.537 --> 00:01:10.197
Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

00:01:11.337 --> 00:01:16.377
The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:55.920
Music.

00:01:56.609 --> 00:02:02.109
Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

00:02:02.789 --> 00:02:07.089
And this was supposed to be a vacation week for me.

00:02:07.249 --> 00:02:14.309
It's still a vacation from my regular job, but I was going to take a break from the podcast too.

00:02:14.429 --> 00:02:21.009
I was going to, you know, just, I don't know, maybe do a greatest hits kind of thing or whatever.

00:02:21.869 --> 00:02:23.969
I don't know, just took the week off. I don't know.

00:02:25.109 --> 00:02:30.829
But fortunately, a guest that I had scheduled to come on earlier this year and

00:02:30.829 --> 00:02:35.089
couldn't make it was able to reschedule for around this time.

00:02:35.809 --> 00:02:38.829
So I was very, very honored to have her to come on.

00:02:39.089 --> 00:02:44.289
And she's going to talk about her book and the research that led to this book

00:02:44.289 --> 00:02:48.109
and the subject matter that that is really, really timely,

00:02:48.629 --> 00:02:55.309
especially since it's dealing with our prison system. in the United States.

00:02:55.909 --> 00:03:00.409
So I was really, really glad that she was able to make that time to do that.

00:03:00.809 --> 00:03:04.869
And somebody I really had been anticipating on interviewing for a while.

00:03:05.049 --> 00:03:12.829
And so I hope that you appreciate the conversation that we were able to have

00:03:12.829 --> 00:03:17.749
and you get something out of it. And at the end of the day, get the book.

00:03:18.827 --> 00:03:25.027
So, we're kicking off season number 12 with this episode.

00:03:25.767 --> 00:03:29.747
And I guess that was kind of the way it was timed. That's why I was going to

00:03:29.747 --> 00:03:33.507
take a break in between the end of season 11 and this.

00:03:33.647 --> 00:03:37.527
But this is a great way to kick off season 12. I think this conversation,

00:03:37.847 --> 00:03:42.107
and she's going to be my only guest on this episode.

00:03:42.887 --> 00:03:46.107
But yeah, so we're into season 12 now.

00:03:46.827 --> 00:03:51.787
And we're going to keep going. and keep doing this, you know,

00:03:51.907 --> 00:03:57.687
I'm still on the lookout for 20,000 subscribers on patreon.com slash among with Eric Fleming.

00:03:58.367 --> 00:04:02.747
So, you know, whatever support you can give is great.

00:04:03.067 --> 00:04:09.467
The subscription is only a dollar a month. But, you know, if you go to momenteric.com

00:04:09.467 --> 00:04:15.007
and do a review or give me five stars or whatever, whatever you want to do to

00:04:15.007 --> 00:04:17.847
show support and show that, you know, people out here listening,

00:04:18.147 --> 00:04:23.067
I would greatly appreciate that because I want to continue to have quality guests

00:04:23.067 --> 00:04:29.327
like the guests I'm having today and all the other folks that I've had on.

00:04:29.587 --> 00:04:35.627
And the lineup is, in my opinion, awesome. That's coming up.

00:04:35.867 --> 00:04:41.127
There's going to be some people that you have heard of on national and you may

00:04:41.127 --> 00:04:44.987
have seen them on CNN or MSNBC or whatever.

00:04:44.987 --> 00:04:48.947
And then there's other folks that you don't know, but they're pretty awesome

00:04:48.947 --> 00:04:51.167
people and they're doing some incredible work.

00:04:51.347 --> 00:04:55.927
And so I greatly appreciate them agreeing to come on.

00:04:56.067 --> 00:05:01.007
And I hope that you will appreciate the conversations we have once they're presented to you.

00:05:01.307 --> 00:05:05.127
So go ahead and go to patreon.com slash a moment, Erik Fleming,

00:05:05.347 --> 00:05:08.407
subscribe, tell your friends, tell your neighbors,

00:05:08.987 --> 00:05:13.507
tell everyone, because like I say, in the opening monologue,

00:05:13.827 --> 00:05:16.547
you know, we're trying to make this moment of movement, right?

00:05:17.147 --> 00:05:22.787
All right. So as always, we want to kick it off with my friend Grace G doing the news.

00:05:23.007 --> 00:05:27.307
So let's kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:33.040
Music.

00:05:34.227 --> 00:05:39.387
Thanks, Erik. Former Louisville police officer Brett Hankison was sentenced

00:05:39.387 --> 00:05:43.867
to 33 months in federal prison for violating Breonna Taylor's rights.

00:05:44.227 --> 00:05:48.967
Bernice King, daughter of Martin Luther King Jr., criticized the Trump administration

00:05:48.967 --> 00:05:52.007
for releasing her father's assassination files.

00:05:52.427 --> 00:05:56.467
Civil rights advocates condemned the Jacksonville, Florida Sheriff's Department

00:05:56.467 --> 00:06:00.747
after a viral video showed officers punching and throwing a black man to the

00:06:00.747 --> 00:06:02.367
ground during a traffic stop.

00:06:03.037 --> 00:06:08.797
The Pentagon announced it is ending the deployment of 700 active-duty Marines to Los Angeles.

00:06:09.277 --> 00:06:13.777
President Trump has sued The Wall Street Journal and its owners for $10 billion,

00:06:14.517 --> 00:06:20.237
alleging defamation over a report linking him to a 2003 birthday greeting for Jeffrey Epstein.

00:06:20.777 --> 00:06:25.537
New Jersey federal court judges refused to extend the appointment of Alina Haba

00:06:25.537 --> 00:06:28.097
as the state's top federal prosecutor.

00:06:28.377 --> 00:06:32.757
The Department of Justice is reportedly gathering information on voter rolls

00:06:32.757 --> 00:06:36.597
in several states ahead of the 2026 midterm elections.

00:06:37.357 --> 00:06:40.937
U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio stated that the U.S.

00:06:41.097 --> 00:06:45.797
Can now deport lawful permanent residents who have supported Haitian gang leaders.

00:06:46.397 --> 00:06:51.637
Idaho has agreed not to prosecute or revoke the licenses of doctors who refer

00:06:51.637 --> 00:06:53.857
patients out of state for abortions.

00:06:54.017 --> 00:06:59.257
The Trump administration will release over $1 billion for after-school and summer

00:06:59.257 --> 00:07:04.177
educational programs, reversing an earlier freeze on K-12 school funding.

00:07:04.457 --> 00:07:09.957
The Democratic Republic of Congo and the M23 Rebel Group have committed to signing

00:07:09.957 --> 00:07:11.917
a peace agreement by August 18.

00:07:12.277 --> 00:07:17.017
A car crashed into a crowd outside a Los Angeles nightclub, injuring at least

00:07:17.017 --> 00:07:21.557
30 people, after which the driver was assaulted by onlookers and shot.

00:07:22.037 --> 00:07:27.617
Actor Malcolm Jamal Warner, known for The Cosby Show, died at the age of 54.

00:07:28.377 --> 00:07:35.157
And William Bill Clay Sr., Missouri's first black U.S. congressman, died at the age of 94.

00:07:35.637 --> 00:07:39.457
I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.

00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:45.200
Music.

00:07:46.362 --> 00:07:48.262
All right. Thank you, Grace, for

00:07:48.262 --> 00:07:53.582
that moment of news. Now it's time for my guest, Dr. Brittany Friedman.

00:07:53.922 --> 00:07:58.742
Dr. Brittany Friedman is recognized as an innovative thinker on how people and

00:07:58.742 --> 00:08:00.682
institutions hide harmful truths.

00:08:01.142 --> 00:08:05.822
Her current work examines this in the realm of social control and the underside

00:08:05.822 --> 00:08:08.822
of government, such as prisons, courts and treasuries.

00:08:09.762 --> 00:08:14.482
Dr. Friedman is considered a path-breaking scholar producing big ideas that

00:08:14.482 --> 00:08:17.582
blow the whistle on bad behavior within society.

00:08:17.922 --> 00:08:25.042
And author of a winter 2025 book titled Carceral Apartheid, How Lies and White

00:08:25.042 --> 00:08:26.662
Supremacists Run Our Prisons.

00:08:27.142 --> 00:08:34.462
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast, Dr.

00:08:35.142 --> 00:08:36.342
Brittany Friedman.

00:08:36.560 --> 00:08:46.160
Music.

00:08:47.002 --> 00:08:53.322
All right Dr. Brittany Friedman how you doing ma'am you doing good yes hi eric

00:08:53.322 --> 00:08:58.202
I'm doing good thank you well i am glad to see you and I'm glad we were able

00:08:58.202 --> 00:09:00.322
to work this out where i could get you on,

00:09:01.422 --> 00:09:06.802
and talk about this you know this book that you wrote but more or less kind of the,

00:09:07.362 --> 00:09:13.082
the issue that you were addressing in the book, because it seems like you have

00:09:13.082 --> 00:09:16.762
spent your whole life dealing with this particular issue.

00:09:16.762 --> 00:09:19.002
So I want to kind of get into that a little bit.

00:09:19.182 --> 00:09:22.762
But to start it off, I usually do a couple of icebreakers.

00:09:23.202 --> 00:09:29.362
So the first icebreaker is a quote. And the quote is, racism will disappear

00:09:29.362 --> 00:09:33.862
when it's no longer profitable and no longer psychologically useful.

00:09:34.182 --> 00:09:35.642
What does that quote mean to you?

00:09:36.625 --> 00:09:41.805
So I love that you start with this quote, because it's a quote that I quote

00:09:41.805 --> 00:09:43.505
one of the sections of my book.

00:09:43.765 --> 00:09:52.745
I've used that quote. And the reason being is because race does truly function as a weapon.

00:09:53.165 --> 00:09:59.905
And for me, how that occurs is, you know, when you want to conquer a people

00:09:59.905 --> 00:10:04.245
or population, you have to think of what are the best ways to do this?

00:10:04.245 --> 00:10:09.465
Well, we know historically division is one of the most powerful tools,

00:10:09.665 --> 00:10:16.325
but you can't divide a people unless you are able to convince people that one

00:10:16.325 --> 00:10:19.445
population is undeserving of their existence.

00:10:19.445 --> 00:10:25.705
And one of the most successful ways you can do that is by creating labels.

00:10:26.065 --> 00:10:35.005
And these labels can vary from what a racial group is, to someone being perceived as a criminal,

00:10:35.485 --> 00:10:42.065
to, you know, someone being perceived as hysterical, right, insane, a behavioral problem.

00:10:42.065 --> 00:10:48.765
And it is this application of labels that then allows institutions,

00:10:49.325 --> 00:10:57.245
even individual people, to enact just extreme levels of violence under the guise

00:10:57.245 --> 00:11:00.565
of fixing people or fixing society.

00:11:01.365 --> 00:11:07.565
And so I love that quote because it's just clear and to the point, right?

00:11:07.665 --> 00:11:13.785
When you hear it, you're immediately like, exactly, right? That is that is how race functions.

00:11:14.245 --> 00:11:24.125
It is why race was such a crucial part of European colonization is having these categories.

00:11:24.525 --> 00:11:29.985
So then we can create a hierarchy and justify the true evil that,

00:11:30.125 --> 00:11:31.165
you know, they were doing.

00:11:31.945 --> 00:11:36.345
Yeah. All right. So the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.

00:11:36.785 --> 00:11:40.465
So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

00:11:41.441 --> 00:11:47.141
It's going to be seven. Okay. What do you consider the best way to stay informed

00:11:47.141 --> 00:11:54.661
about politics, current events, health, etc.? One of the best things we can do is two things.

00:11:54.841 --> 00:12:00.221
First, stay locked in and tuned in to people like yourself, right?

00:12:00.401 --> 00:12:06.501
People like yourself that are using their gifts to speak truth to power,

00:12:06.501 --> 00:12:15.041
that are using their sight and their vision to showcase with potent clarity

00:12:15.041 --> 00:12:18.721
what's happening in the world and in our communities.

00:12:19.481 --> 00:12:23.561
And then second, never stop reading. I always tell people, read everything.

00:12:23.841 --> 00:12:30.941
Don't just define yourself by a genre and be like, oh, I just read this. No, read everything.

00:12:31.601 --> 00:12:36.061
And, you know, some of the people I look up to in terms of thinkers,

00:12:36.321 --> 00:12:39.261
like that's what they did. They literally read every genre.

00:12:39.421 --> 00:12:44.661
They're reading fiction, nonfiction, poetry, you know, staying locked into art.

00:12:44.781 --> 00:12:49.961
Because by doing that, if you're in your full humanity of what you're consuming,

00:12:50.301 --> 00:12:53.881
then you can actually see the full humanity of the world.

00:12:54.161 --> 00:12:58.141
You don't siphon your mind off into different categories.

00:12:58.461 --> 00:13:05.181
And so I would say those two things for me allow us to stay in our authenticity.

00:13:05.261 --> 00:13:09.201
And that's the key to being free, to freeing yourself.

00:13:10.201 --> 00:13:16.061
Okay. All right. So what was the inspiration you pulled from your grandmother? her?

00:13:17.141 --> 00:13:25.961
My grandmother, she was a fighter. She was a sharecropper before my mom was

00:13:25.961 --> 00:13:27.941
born. My mom is the youngest of 12.

00:13:28.261 --> 00:13:34.821
So my grandmother, she was married off at a very young age. She was like 13.

00:13:35.821 --> 00:13:39.781
She had a lot of trials that she had to overcome.

00:13:39.981 --> 00:13:43.061
Being married young, she had a lot of children, which

00:13:43.061 --> 00:13:48.461
is the norm at the time she was working as a sharecropper and in the boot hill

00:13:48.461 --> 00:13:53.301
which is where i have a lot of family of Missouri right next to Arkansas and

00:13:53.301 --> 00:13:57.561
every time i say boot hill i feel like my accent comes back it disappears but

00:13:57.561 --> 00:14:01.941
when i talk about the boot hill it's like i i just come it just comes all the way back.

00:14:02.984 --> 00:14:06.044
And, you know, she was evicted.

00:14:06.044 --> 00:14:10.584
And I talk about this in the prologue of my book because that image of her that

00:14:10.584 --> 00:14:16.344
I show, the image my family found in the Library of Congress of her being a

00:14:16.344 --> 00:14:18.464
part of this protest when she was evicted.

00:14:18.464 --> 00:14:22.304
And she's holding my aunt Nora, who's my mom's much older sister.

00:14:22.644 --> 00:14:25.544
And she's, you know, she's just standing there. She's in the protest,

00:14:25.764 --> 00:14:29.364
all of their belongings, everything to their name on the side of the road.

00:14:29.584 --> 00:14:32.464
And when I see that, when I first saw it, it made me cry.

00:14:32.984 --> 00:14:36.144
Because I know that, you know, my grandmother, she just,

00:14:36.424 --> 00:14:43.284
she was forced to work so hard her whole life in the legacy of our ancestors

00:14:43.284 --> 00:14:50.264
that have been forced for generations, right, to have your body be used as a tool.

00:14:50.624 --> 00:14:54.044
You know, not having ownership of your body or agency over your body.

00:14:54.044 --> 00:14:56.864
And you know as a

00:14:56.864 --> 00:14:59.744
black woman seeing my grandmother in that way

00:14:59.744 --> 00:15:02.724
and the multi-faceted ways that she didn't have

00:15:02.724 --> 00:15:07.384
control over her body and her labor it just brought me to tears and then to

00:15:07.384 --> 00:15:11.864
see her holding my aunt an aunt that's now passed away but like I love my aunt

00:15:11.864 --> 00:15:15.624
Nora and seeing a little baby her like in my grandmother's arms it just made

00:15:15.624 --> 00:15:20.704
me cry because I know that now you know when night.

00:15:21.244 --> 00:15:27.264
Anytime I feel like, oh, I can't do it, or I feel just too beaten down,

00:15:27.444 --> 00:15:34.584
I think about my grandma, how strong she was, and then also she had a softness.

00:15:34.884 --> 00:15:41.784
That was a part of her rebellion too, is that she refused to let the world harden her.

00:15:42.477 --> 00:15:48.917
And she had a softness to her as well. And she really, for me,

00:15:49.077 --> 00:15:51.917
is the reason why I love to cook is because she taught my mom to cook.

00:15:52.037 --> 00:15:56.357
So that's something that I inherited from them is just like as a way of loving

00:15:56.357 --> 00:16:00.297
yourself and reclaiming your body. And she had a garden.

00:16:00.857 --> 00:16:04.937
I'm an herbalist. And so when I'm with plants and I teach my daughters about

00:16:04.937 --> 00:16:10.077
plants, I also think of my grandmother and all these ways that she existed.

00:16:11.057 --> 00:16:17.517
And so for me, you know, she represents what it truly means to rebel in all

00:16:17.517 --> 00:16:20.637
these ways while maintaining your true self.

00:16:20.777 --> 00:16:23.617
And she's always with me now. You know, she's an ancestor now,

00:16:23.717 --> 00:16:25.697
but she's always around.

00:16:25.837 --> 00:16:29.657
It's like when you ask that question, it's not a coincidence.

00:16:29.657 --> 00:16:33.897
I looked at the clock, because I'm on Pacific time, and it said 11-11.

00:16:34.237 --> 00:16:35.337
I'm like, okay, Grandma.

00:16:36.797 --> 00:16:42.157
Yep. It was right at 11-11. have asked it. So she's always here.

00:16:42.337 --> 00:16:47.277
So I, that is what I take from my grandmother and I'm very grateful for her.

00:16:47.437 --> 00:16:50.177
And I wish I could have told her more of this when she was alive,

00:16:50.177 --> 00:16:52.237
but I know that she hears me now.

00:16:53.077 --> 00:16:58.797
Yeah. All right. So the book that you alluded to is called Carceral Apartheid,

00:16:59.377 --> 00:17:02.517
How Lies and White Supremacists Run Our Prisons.

00:17:03.177 --> 00:17:11.097
So my question to you is, how did you come up with the term carceral apartheid?

00:17:11.557 --> 00:17:14.737
And two, how long have you been researching this issue?

00:17:15.677 --> 00:17:20.857
So I came up with the term carceral apartheid because I was just so immersed

00:17:20.857 --> 00:17:22.377
in what I was discovering.

00:17:22.377 --> 00:17:28.857
I had collected all of these interviews with former Black political prisoners

00:17:28.857 --> 00:17:32.617
in California that, you know, had survived.

00:17:32.917 --> 00:17:41.217
What I lay out in my book was essentially a version of COINTELPRO in prison, but pre-COINTELPRO.

00:17:41.457 --> 00:17:47.597
Like I'm showing even farther back, there was this eugenics agenda to destroy

00:17:47.597 --> 00:17:53.717
Black people in the state of California that is also being exported out to other states.

00:17:54.377 --> 00:18:00.357
And being with those transcripts and also being with people and their families

00:18:00.357 --> 00:18:05.937
and then matching that to the archives that I just spent years in,

00:18:06.177 --> 00:18:13.777
I'm like, okay, so if I'm staying true to how people are describing their experience, this is apartheid.

00:18:13.777 --> 00:18:19.437
Like people are, and that's how people, maybe not using that word,

00:18:19.637 --> 00:18:26.137
but directly would say, like during my incarceration when I was disappeared in a solitary cell,

00:18:26.377 --> 00:18:34.597
I thought of how Nelson Mandela was incarcerated at the same time as me for

00:18:34.597 --> 00:18:36.537
being a freedom fighter like me.

00:18:36.537 --> 00:18:39.637
And so as I am thinking this through, I'm like,

00:18:39.837 --> 00:18:49.877
this is a broader system where prisons are still a tool of settler colonialism

00:18:49.877 --> 00:18:55.237
or conquering a people and containing people and removing them.

00:18:55.237 --> 00:18:58.277
And that is what apartheid is.

00:18:58.557 --> 00:19:05.317
And it's only possible through these carceral institutions, meaning through

00:19:05.317 --> 00:19:09.617
control, through jails, through prisons, through boarding schools,

00:19:09.897 --> 00:19:12.097
which is a worldwide phenomenon, right?

00:19:12.097 --> 00:19:17.257
All indigenous populations, whether in Africa, US, Canada, Australia.

00:19:17.577 --> 00:19:21.617
Being snatched away as children from their homes and their families.

00:19:21.777 --> 00:19:27.617
And so I saw that connection once I really had the full picture.

00:19:27.797 --> 00:19:31.897
And I'm a very visual person. So I kind of had everything laid out so I could

00:19:31.897 --> 00:19:36.737
see it and like drawing connections. And I'm like, this is global.

00:19:36.997 --> 00:19:40.437
And I'm looking at a case of this. So what is it?

00:19:40.517 --> 00:19:48.317
This is apartheid, but it's carceral apartheid because the carceral states of

00:19:48.317 --> 00:19:53.897
these nations are what is doing the actual violent labor.

00:19:54.197 --> 00:19:58.377
That's what's actually maintaining apartheid and creating this system.

00:19:58.517 --> 00:20:06.237
And I wanted to center that to be true to what people articulated to me that

00:20:06.237 --> 00:20:08.337
they survived and how they survived it.

00:20:09.358 --> 00:20:13.218
Yeah. So how long have you been doing that? I mean, oh my goodness.

00:20:13.358 --> 00:20:15.498
I started this work in 2013.

00:20:16.198 --> 00:20:21.718
And so for a long time, you know, because you finish a book so much sooner than when it comes out.

00:20:22.078 --> 00:20:28.098
So I, like back in 2013, I mean, 2023, excuse me, when I was writing,

00:20:28.298 --> 00:20:30.738
I was at the end, I'm like, okay, it's been a decade.

00:20:31.238 --> 00:20:35.378
Now I'm like, that's not even true. It's like, it is 2025.

00:20:35.498 --> 00:20:42.438
We are well into 2025. So that is almost 12 years because I'm still going through

00:20:42.438 --> 00:20:46.978
everything that I collected and have because I couldn't put it in the book.

00:20:47.118 --> 00:20:52.378
And now I'm trying to figure out what to do with it all because it's just so much, you know?

00:20:53.178 --> 00:20:59.238
Yeah. Yeah. So why did you start the book with a couple of timelines?

00:21:00.138 --> 00:21:04.218
I started the book that way, you know, going back to what I was saying earlier,

00:21:04.218 --> 00:21:10.698
because I I wanted people to see these connections and I'm a very visual person and I felt like,

00:21:10.858 --> 00:21:16.058
you know, I could say it, but if people can see the timeline of what's happening

00:21:16.058 --> 00:21:23.558
concurrently in the United States at the same time as what's happening in the African continent,

00:21:23.558 --> 00:21:26.498
what's happening in Europe,

00:21:27.318 --> 00:21:33.458
what's happening in Palestine and Israel, like if people can see this visually,

00:21:33.798 --> 00:21:36.978
then it makes more of an impact.

00:21:36.978 --> 00:21:44.098
I find even with teaching, people remember the argument when they can see it too, not just hear it.

00:21:44.638 --> 00:21:48.258
Yeah, it was very compelling. It was like when I started looking,

00:21:48.298 --> 00:21:52.758
I was like, oh, wow, she's really like connecting dots with this thing,

00:21:52.918 --> 00:21:56.018
with the timeline. timeline is like the first timeline in America.

00:21:56.198 --> 00:21:59.618
I was like, okay, cool. It is. Oh, that was the world timeline too. Oh, wow. Okay.

00:22:00.278 --> 00:22:05.938
Yeah. So I just wanted to kind of get you to articulate what was your thought process in doing that.

00:22:06.038 --> 00:22:10.718
Cause like you said, as a visual person, that, that really kind of tells a story.

00:22:11.558 --> 00:22:14.938
Many classic books start with a profound opening sentence.

00:22:15.758 --> 00:22:21.258
Your opening sentence is, most major institutions in our lives are built on lies.

00:22:21.438 --> 00:22:23.998
And for this, we are all haunted.

00:22:24.438 --> 00:22:30.638
Why was that your opening statement? And what tone did you want that sentence to set for the book?

00:22:31.693 --> 00:22:39.293
I wanted to bring people into the shadows of all of the things that we take for granted.

00:22:39.713 --> 00:22:45.813
Because for one, we do take, and I say we as a collective, not us individually.

00:22:46.133 --> 00:22:52.773
But we as a human collective still often take prisons for granted as just a

00:22:52.773 --> 00:22:53.973
legitimate institution.

00:22:54.253 --> 00:23:01.613
But I wanted to really zone in on the fact that that's not the only institution we take for granted.

00:23:01.693 --> 00:23:07.493
We take for granted how our families are supposed to look without digging deeper

00:23:07.493 --> 00:23:12.133
to the fact that like, is this the way that our ancestors organized our families?

00:23:12.313 --> 00:23:18.213
Or is this the product of centuries of colonialism that now our families are

00:23:18.213 --> 00:23:22.993
organized this way? The same thing with institutions like marriage, which is related.

00:23:23.253 --> 00:23:31.633
Is this the actual template or is this a template that dates back to the inheritance

00:23:31.633 --> 00:23:36.353
of property and needing to have the quote unquote legitimate firstborn, right?

00:23:36.553 --> 00:23:40.793
All of these things that debunk this whole myth of like, you find the one you

00:23:40.793 --> 00:23:44.773
love, you get married, it's a fairy tale. That's actually not the history of marriage.

00:23:45.053 --> 00:23:48.413
That is not it. the the

00:23:48.413 --> 00:23:51.773
same thing in terms of uh religion right like

00:23:51.773 --> 00:23:56.933
is this actually promoting a true connection to whatever we hold dear as you

00:23:56.933 --> 00:24:03.093
know all of the different names we could use or is this in us an organized system

00:24:03.093 --> 00:24:09.513
that is hierarchical that allows for the concentration of power often gendered at the top,

00:24:09.773 --> 00:24:15.253
where everyone else is being told how they can be saved versus.

00:24:15.813 --> 00:24:19.133
Like, is that actually the original intention?

00:24:19.133 --> 00:24:22.633
If we go back to, you know, let's, I'll just use an example,

00:24:22.733 --> 00:24:25.453
the cult of Christianity, like, was that the intention?

00:24:25.673 --> 00:24:33.873
Or has this particular religion been shaped by centuries of nation-state building?

00:24:34.113 --> 00:24:38.533
And that's why, so that's how I think about things.

00:24:38.713 --> 00:24:44.613
I am now at a place where I try not to take things for granted when I see them,

00:24:44.813 --> 00:24:46.593
just to see them at face value.

00:24:46.753 --> 00:24:53.813
And that's why I chose that sentence because really diving into my book requires you to do that.

00:24:54.053 --> 00:24:59.773
You have to discard everything you might have heard about certain people that are in the book,

00:25:00.093 --> 00:25:06.473
certain institutions and their intentions in order for you to actually be open

00:25:06.473 --> 00:25:12.213
enough to, I would say, have a fair opinion on its contents.

00:25:12.973 --> 00:25:16.993
Yeah. All right. I'm going to, I'm going to jump to chapter five and.

00:25:17.794 --> 00:25:22.794
Ask you to talk about the significance of the Soledad brothers and the Black

00:25:22.794 --> 00:25:26.554
guerrilla family in challenging this carceral apartheid system.

00:25:26.554 --> 00:25:31.294
I mean, I think that moment in history,

00:25:31.734 --> 00:25:39.574
right, where you have this shooting that happens in Soledad of three Black militant

00:25:39.574 --> 00:25:42.414
leaders and leaders in turn what I, you know,

00:25:42.814 --> 00:25:49.574
leaders meaning held a level of esteem within the population of incarcerated

00:25:49.574 --> 00:25:53.154
Black people that are organizing for freedom on the inside.

00:25:53.154 --> 00:25:57.354
At the same time, right, we're talking late 60s, 1969,

00:25:58.034 --> 00:26:02.714
right, 1970, we're talking at the same time as we're seeing,

00:26:02.994 --> 00:26:10.134
you know, all of the ongoing still marches, the really heyday of Black power.

00:26:10.134 --> 00:26:18.194
And I wanted to show and articulate that even though we have this juggernaut

00:26:18.194 --> 00:26:21.774
of a system that's coming with all this historical weight,

00:26:22.374 --> 00:26:30.654
right, at the same time, you have ingenuity, you have an organized response that's brewing.

00:26:30.654 --> 00:26:36.094
And with the murder in particular of W.L.

00:26:36.234 --> 00:26:39.714
Nolan, who I highlight, because he was just...

00:26:40.615 --> 00:26:44.695
It really came out in the interviews that I did and also in the archives,

00:26:44.695 --> 00:26:47.055
like what he meant to the movement.

00:26:47.395 --> 00:26:55.115
And, and one of the key points, I think that sometimes isn't fully articulated is that, you know,

00:26:55.295 --> 00:27:01.815
his level of strategy to organize people across race was so key is what made

00:27:01.815 --> 00:27:07.175
him so threatening and why it was believed that he was targeted that day in

00:27:07.175 --> 00:27:14.615
Soledad to be shot and to be set up in this fight with white supremacists on the yard, right?

00:27:15.075 --> 00:27:21.395
And just before that, he had organized a petition and he got incarcerated people

00:27:21.395 --> 00:27:23.815
of all racial groups to sign it,

00:27:24.315 --> 00:27:28.355
saying, look, these are all the, basically, the human rights violations that

00:27:28.355 --> 00:27:31.815
have happened within the California Department of Corrections.

00:27:31.955 --> 00:27:35.095
This is the logic of that system. He laid it out.

00:27:35.515 --> 00:27:43.495
And, you know, I argue that it wholly lays even more proof to,

00:27:43.835 --> 00:27:48.275
you know, my claim that this is a carceral apartheid system because he lays

00:27:48.275 --> 00:27:50.215
it out. He's like, this is by division.

00:27:50.475 --> 00:27:52.595
They are using like categories.

00:27:52.875 --> 00:27:58.775
They are doing they're segregating us, kind of trying to hold people in torturous

00:27:58.775 --> 00:28:00.455
conditions to break their mind.

00:28:01.015 --> 00:28:04.035
And then he's killed for it. He's murdered for it.

00:28:04.035 --> 00:28:12.355
And the co-founders of the Black Gorilla Family that I spent years with, you know,

00:28:12.575 --> 00:28:18.835
really articulated that that moment taught them that they have to live free

00:28:18.835 --> 00:28:23.835
or die trying, which is why I use that as a header in a section of the book,

00:28:23.855 --> 00:28:26.515
because that was coming from the interviews.

00:28:26.515 --> 00:28:35.455
We saw that when you are able to unite people around the shared clarity that

00:28:35.455 --> 00:28:39.235
we are a prisoner class and that this is a prison state,

00:28:39.235 --> 00:28:41.635
it's a prison nation and a prison world—.

00:28:42.487 --> 00:28:47.127
You will be executed for it. And I found, you know, in the archives,

00:28:47.347 --> 00:28:51.567
direct quotes from prison officials that would say, and I quote it in the book,

00:28:51.687 --> 00:28:53.907
they would say, we don't want to create martyrs.

00:28:53.987 --> 00:28:58.247
And it's because they were trying to hide what was going on intentionally because

00:28:58.247 --> 00:29:00.747
they didn't want someone like W.L.

00:29:00.807 --> 00:29:04.667
Nolan to be a martyr because they knew that it would unite people.

00:29:04.807 --> 00:29:10.427
And that's what it did. It really shifted where incarcerated Black people that

00:29:10.427 --> 00:29:15.507
were self-described as Black militants were like, we can no longer be separate.

00:29:15.847 --> 00:29:19.627
Yes, we can have our affiliations. You could be a nation of Islam.

00:29:19.887 --> 00:29:22.067
I could be a Panther, for example.

00:29:22.387 --> 00:29:27.487
But while we're here within the Department of Corrections, we are the Black guerrilla family.

00:29:27.787 --> 00:29:34.287
We're united right now. And we have to be. Otherwise, they will just keep picking us off in that way.

00:29:34.487 --> 00:29:40.047
And so that's what I took from that moment. And I did my very best to show it

00:29:40.047 --> 00:29:42.007
and not just articulate it.

00:29:42.087 --> 00:29:45.407
I wanted people to feel like they were there when they're reading it.

00:29:45.507 --> 00:29:50.707
And you can envision the feeling, you know, the feeling of what would it take

00:29:50.707 --> 00:29:57.747
to push a human being to that point where they're like, I have to organize myself or I will be murdered.

00:29:58.387 --> 00:30:01.247
Yeah. Well, you definitely do a good job in that.

00:30:01.887 --> 00:30:05.667
You know, as somebody that loves history, it was just, you know,

00:30:05.747 --> 00:30:10.927
how visceral it was to read that and feel like you were there,

00:30:11.107 --> 00:30:16.247
like you were witnessing that and you were in the meetings and you understood why the people were,

00:30:16.447 --> 00:30:21.147
I guess, rebelling for lack of a better term, but just trying to figure out

00:30:21.147 --> 00:30:25.947
how they're going to manage to survive in that instance.

00:30:26.187 --> 00:30:29.587
So So it was that was you did a great job in doing that.

00:30:30.127 --> 00:30:37.487
Explain the Ashker versus governor of California lawsuit, which was settled in 2015 and its impact.

00:30:38.527 --> 00:30:43.007
So, you know, this lawsuit, it's coming decades later.

00:30:43.347 --> 00:30:50.447
And what makes it so powerful is that it really showcases everything that the

00:30:50.447 --> 00:30:52.927
black guerrilla family wanted to happen.

00:30:52.927 --> 00:31:00.547
They wanted this uniting of incarcerated people under one banner to say,

00:31:00.707 --> 00:31:07.187
we understand what the Department of Corrections is doing and the colonial logics that they're using.

00:31:07.187 --> 00:31:09.427
And we refuse, basically.

00:31:09.567 --> 00:31:11.667
We just refuse. And that's what happened.

00:31:11.927 --> 00:31:17.447
So starting in the 2010s, you have a series of hunger strikes and they come about because.

00:31:18.668 --> 00:31:24.288
Coming out of Pelican Bay, you have the leaders of all of the major prisoner

00:31:24.288 --> 00:31:29.228
organizations all sitting in isolation, all in solitary.

00:31:29.528 --> 00:31:35.028
The attorneys for that set of men did a brilliant job, in my opinion,

00:31:35.188 --> 00:31:41.348
of really publicizing their clients through their own voice and creating an

00:31:41.348 --> 00:31:44.468
entire online archive, which you can find,

00:31:44.648 --> 00:31:48.428
which I encourage people to do and watch these videos so you can hear people

00:31:48.428 --> 00:31:54.068
articulate their own reasonings in their own voice, but articulating that, you know,

00:31:54.308 --> 00:32:02.208
there was a moment of just enlightenment, particularly for groups that had been antagonizing,

00:32:02.568 --> 00:32:06.788
especially antagonizing to the Black Gorilla family for years, that.

00:32:07.348 --> 00:32:09.608
Despite all of that, we all ended up here.

00:32:10.008 --> 00:32:13.208
Like, we're all here. we we've all

00:32:13.208 --> 00:32:18.148
been pawns of this system and

00:32:18.148 --> 00:32:20.948
and so they gave an order

00:32:20.948 --> 00:32:24.648
that we will no longer fight each

00:32:24.648 --> 00:32:29.288
other because we know that they're using us against each other they they published

00:32:29.288 --> 00:32:33.688
a statement that i encourage people to also look up after listening to these

00:32:33.688 --> 00:32:38.688
video interviews which are just so powerful the agreement to end hostilities

00:32:38.688 --> 00:32:42.768
is what the title they gave it which tells you everything and sign their names,

00:32:43.148 --> 00:32:44.508
you know, sign their names.

00:32:44.708 --> 00:32:49.848
So you can see like, we are the authority and we're saying, you know,

00:32:49.948 --> 00:32:51.488
to everyone, lay down your arms.

00:32:51.608 --> 00:32:53.628
This is not our, this is not our war.

00:32:53.888 --> 00:33:00.528
This is a war that was manufactured for us, for what I argue in my,

00:33:00.648 --> 00:33:05.128
in my book is for, it's as the ultimate means of control and exploitation.

00:33:05.248 --> 00:33:07.748
It's like playing puppet master.

00:33:08.676 --> 00:33:14.236
And so that lawsuit was, it's coming out of that movement, that big movement

00:33:14.236 --> 00:33:16.396
of the agreement to end hostilities.

00:33:17.056 --> 00:33:22.656
And Ashker is Todd Ashker, you know, who had been identified actually as a leader

00:33:22.656 --> 00:33:23.836
in the Aryan Brotherhood.

00:33:23.996 --> 00:33:28.656
So his name is listed, but if you look, it's his name and the other names as well.

00:33:28.656 --> 00:33:33.096
And that lawsuit was one

00:33:33.096 --> 00:33:35.976
of the main goals there's many but one of the main goals

00:33:35.976 --> 00:33:38.956
was to end indeterminate solitary in the

00:33:38.956 --> 00:33:46.896
chute and i think that what kind of eventually became of the lawsuit really

00:33:46.896 --> 00:33:53.496
shows you how even when the department of corrections is forced to settle right

00:33:53.496 --> 00:33:56.296
and is is forced to make concessions,

00:33:56.536 --> 00:34:00.076
they don't actually implement what they're ordered to do.

00:34:00.296 --> 00:34:05.916
So they were actually ordered, right, to develop a system of allowing people

00:34:05.916 --> 00:34:12.036
to come out of the shoe and to stop the racial segregation.

00:34:12.316 --> 00:34:18.376
And here we are still now in California, and many people argue that the conditions are worse.

00:34:18.636 --> 00:34:23.436
And even legal pushes against to say they're not doing what they're supposed,

00:34:23.596 --> 00:34:28.356
they're not actually implementing any court orders, you know, have been shot down.

00:34:28.736 --> 00:34:33.696
And so I think that we can take this as a case study of then where do we go

00:34:33.696 --> 00:34:38.556
now when you have this incredible movement from the inside led by incarcerated

00:34:38.556 --> 00:34:44.056
people uniting and then it goes through the courts and it culminates in this

00:34:44.056 --> 00:34:47.516
suit and this and the Department of Corrections is just like,

00:34:47.636 --> 00:34:48.696
nah, we're not gonna do it.

00:34:49.546 --> 00:34:55.606
Like, and then where's the, so then there's no sanctions on the Department of Corrections, right?

00:34:56.186 --> 00:35:01.986
And so that is unfortunately where we are right now in California.

00:35:02.946 --> 00:35:09.326
Yeah. So normally I don't do appendixes for my podcast, but so when you've heard

00:35:09.326 --> 00:35:13.686
the terms for the listeners, when you heard the term Soledad and Pelican Bay,

00:35:13.966 --> 00:35:16.086
those are prisons in California.

00:35:16.806 --> 00:35:24.066
And the shoe that Dr. Freeman is referring to is the security housing units that are in Pelican Bay.

00:35:24.306 --> 00:35:27.526
So when you heard Denzel in the movie Training Day, you know,

00:35:27.626 --> 00:35:29.106
you'd be playing basketball in Pelican Bay.

00:35:29.246 --> 00:35:32.326
That's what he was talking about for the listening.

00:35:33.286 --> 00:35:38.106
All right. So let's close this out. And I apologize.

00:35:38.446 --> 00:35:44.406
Well, I got a couple more questions, but I apologize because this book is really, really detailed.

00:35:44.806 --> 00:35:51.606
And a half hour is not really going to get into the media, but I wanted to highlight some things.

00:35:52.126 --> 00:35:59.646
And so you were talking about no sanctions or, you know, for folks not doing

00:35:59.646 --> 00:36:03.766
what the lawsuit or the settlement of the lawsuit requires.

00:36:03.766 --> 00:36:11.046
So at the end of your book, You wrote, our invitation to awaken demands an end

00:36:11.046 --> 00:36:14.246
to the heteropatriarchy, criminalization,

00:36:14.666 --> 00:36:20.466
racism, and surveillance that creates the conditions upon which cultural apartheid

00:36:20.466 --> 00:36:22.206
thrives domestically and globally.

00:36:22.486 --> 00:36:27.926
We will no longer be introduced to a fate bought and paid for with lies,

00:36:28.486 --> 00:36:31.566
white supremacy, and ultimately social control.

00:36:32.326 --> 00:36:38.166
Instead, we rewrite the past, create a new present, and envision a future where

00:36:38.166 --> 00:36:45.086
true joy is based in radical love and compassion, not profit and chasing fleeting heights.

00:36:45.426 --> 00:36:50.266
So my question to you is policy-wise, how do we accept that invitation?

00:36:51.220 --> 00:36:59.500
So there's a number of policies in the works or that have been tested and started in different states.

00:36:59.600 --> 00:37:03.600
And there's also global examples that I can point to.

00:37:03.860 --> 00:37:10.440
But to kind of narrow it down in the interest of time, I think I will focus on just a couple.

00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:16.320
So first and foremost, I think one of the main things that we can do literally

00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:25.380
immediately is abolish all fines, fees, and debt related to prisons in the criminal justice system.

00:37:25.800 --> 00:37:32.380
It's another area of my work is looking at social control through financial

00:37:32.380 --> 00:37:36.760
fees and burdens that are layered onto incarcerated people and their families.

00:37:36.940 --> 00:37:42.340
But what I have found in that work is that, and also in looking at some test

00:37:42.340 --> 00:37:49.200
cases where some jurisdictions have provided debt amnesty, for example, like they'll just say,

00:37:49.640 --> 00:37:54.520
okay, all your court fines, fees from that criminal case, they're gone.

00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:57.680
And shown the significant impact

00:37:57.680 --> 00:38:01.780
that has on our community, specifically communities of color, right?

00:38:02.300 --> 00:38:08.220
And the freedom and the sense of not having that debt and not having the risk

00:38:08.220 --> 00:38:10.580
of that debt ruining also your credit,

00:38:10.820 --> 00:38:14.440
all the financial consequences, I would just say immediately,

00:38:14.680 --> 00:38:17.640
like if there's something that we can all get behind,

00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:23.060
irregardless of our politics, like tomorrow would be abolishing that debt.

00:38:23.240 --> 00:38:29.780
It would be abolishing the ability to financially profit from someone's incarceration

00:38:29.780 --> 00:38:32.420
in a cage. And those are two parts, right?

00:38:32.620 --> 00:38:36.600
They're not the same thing, but they're highly correlated.

00:38:37.020 --> 00:38:43.980
And what I mean by the second one is the allowance for bidding on private contracts,

00:38:44.140 --> 00:38:47.280
not just with private prisons, because the majority of our prisons in the United

00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:48.600
States are actually public.

00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:52.420
And so what we, yes, private prisons are a problem.

00:38:53.714 --> 00:38:57.434
We also should be very concerned about the fact that our public prisons have

00:38:57.434 --> 00:39:03.574
all of these private bidding and contracts that allow for this capitalist exploitation

00:39:03.574 --> 00:39:05.474
of incarcerated people.

00:39:06.294 --> 00:39:11.514
And those are the two things immediately. Another, I know I said two and I keep going,

00:39:11.854 --> 00:39:17.574
but there has been significant policy pushes that happen,

00:39:17.694 --> 00:39:22.694
especially during the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic, that shows that we can

00:39:22.694 --> 00:39:28.254
reduce our prison population significantly should we choose to.

00:39:28.594 --> 00:39:32.154
And I can just give this case of when I was living in New Jersey.

00:39:32.334 --> 00:39:35.274
I was in New Jersey in 2020, right?

00:39:35.414 --> 00:39:41.434
When, you know, the tri-state, we were all shut, like, on lockdown pretty early in the pandemic, right?

00:39:41.534 --> 00:39:45.654
And New Jersey was one of the states that had significant numbers in terms of

00:39:45.654 --> 00:39:50.054
rates of COVID spreading amongst incarcerated people, and then deaths.

00:39:50.214 --> 00:39:55.034
Some very notable deaths, and particularly I'm thinking of Tiffany Mofield's

00:39:55.034 --> 00:39:59.454
death in solitary with COVID in the women's prison in New Jersey. It was horrific.

00:39:59.794 --> 00:40:04.794
And so we see the governor at the time, Murphy, he does start passing this really

00:40:04.794 --> 00:40:08.574
innovative legislation, at least for the time, releasing people,

00:40:08.714 --> 00:40:11.074
allowing a significant mass release.

00:40:11.234 --> 00:40:15.474
And so it's like, that tells me as an abolitionist, like we can do it.

00:40:15.654 --> 00:40:21.734
Like if you actually want to think of ways to significantly reduce our current

00:40:21.734 --> 00:40:23.474
prison population, we can.

00:40:23.694 --> 00:40:29.854
And it shouldn't take people dying in a horrific way through a pandemic for

00:40:29.854 --> 00:40:32.174
us to say, oh, we could do that now.

00:40:32.274 --> 00:40:36.094
That tells me that these are human beings that could have been free sooner.

00:40:36.334 --> 00:40:39.974
They could have been free much sooner than this moment if we're just going to

00:40:39.974 --> 00:40:45.134
do the mass release, right? And it kind of just disrupts our whole notion of

00:40:45.134 --> 00:40:48.354
like, then why were they still there in the first place?

00:40:48.694 --> 00:40:53.614
What are the incentives that kept them there before, you know,

00:40:53.714 --> 00:40:57.334
it was a political fallout, and so then you have to release them because it's a pandemic?

00:40:58.387 --> 00:41:01.747
So those are the questions I want people to think through. It's like,

00:41:01.927 --> 00:41:04.167
you know, what are the incentives?

00:41:04.627 --> 00:41:09.287
How can we, these are the policies I'm talking about are disrupting the incentives

00:41:09.287 --> 00:41:13.087
of incarceration, of mass incarceration, the financial incentives,

00:41:13.227 --> 00:41:14.267
the political incentives.

00:41:14.547 --> 00:41:22.047
And I tried to highlight, you know, some examples that have successfully done that in recent years.

00:41:22.047 --> 00:41:25.807
And it's something, you know, especially on the financial end,

00:41:25.927 --> 00:41:28.187
my research lab, the Captive Money Lab,

00:41:28.387 --> 00:41:34.407
We're doing a lot of work around prison pay to stay and disrupting and repealing

00:41:34.407 --> 00:41:39.227
the financial incentive to actually charge people daily rate fees,

00:41:39.427 --> 00:41:41.007
which is what we're studying.

00:41:41.307 --> 00:41:44.987
So I have tried to lay out a few things. There's so many more,

00:41:45.167 --> 00:41:46.947
but I know I can't get into them all.

00:41:48.067 --> 00:41:51.247
Yeah, well, that's understood. So what do you want?

00:41:51.367 --> 00:41:56.187
I usually ask most authors when they come on this question, what do you want

00:41:56.187 --> 00:42:01.707
the reader of this book to take away from it? I want people to feel empowered.

00:42:01.727 --> 00:42:06.747
The reason why I ended the book with the invitation to awaken is because I wanted

00:42:06.747 --> 00:42:09.687
people to reclaim their power.

00:42:10.127 --> 00:42:17.107
Because this world, it is a prison planet in the sense that the world tries

00:42:17.107 --> 00:42:21.747
to convince people from an early age, through our social institutions,

00:42:21.967 --> 00:42:23.527
through school, family, community.

00:42:24.052 --> 00:42:27.192
The way that religion is done through personal relationships,

00:42:27.472 --> 00:42:33.832
through, right, the carceral state, that we're helpless little beings that can't

00:42:33.832 --> 00:42:36.412
think for ourselves. And it's just not true.

00:42:37.152 --> 00:42:40.212
Human beings are, we're miraculous beings.

00:42:40.512 --> 00:42:44.632
We have ingenuity. We have the ability to be resilient, yes,

00:42:44.772 --> 00:42:46.492
but we're exceptionally creative.

00:42:46.572 --> 00:42:51.192
And we're also not supposed to be disconnected from the natural world.

00:42:51.392 --> 00:42:55.932
That's something I learned in my own family's heritage through my grandmother, right?

00:42:56.152 --> 00:43:01.112
That's something I prioritize now is teaching my children how to have a loving

00:43:01.112 --> 00:43:07.452
relationship with the earth versus a relationship that is based on forced labor and exploitation.

00:43:08.012 --> 00:43:13.432
And so that is what I want people to now, especially, you know,

00:43:13.692 --> 00:43:21.232
people of color, is really like grounding into our sense of power and sovereignty

00:43:21.232 --> 00:43:22.972
and what that means individually,

00:43:23.352 --> 00:43:25.072
but also collectively.

00:43:25.772 --> 00:43:29.172
Because for me, I can also just highlight like one

00:43:29.172 --> 00:43:32.332
of the most healing kind of reclaiming my

00:43:32.332 --> 00:43:39.132
power processes that I went through personally was spending the last year from

00:43:39.132 --> 00:43:47.332
2024 through early 2025 in an herbalist apprenticeship surrounded by the majority

00:43:47.332 --> 00:43:52.232
of women and non-binary people of color and many Black herbalists.

00:43:52.432 --> 00:43:59.732
And it was just a very healing experience because we spent a lot of time talking

00:43:59.732 --> 00:44:05.652
and also practicing with our actions like abolition in that space and what does

00:44:05.652 --> 00:44:07.052
that mean for the everyday.

00:44:07.312 --> 00:44:12.532
And I loved it because it took me out of the academy in a way that was very beautiful.

00:44:12.892 --> 00:44:19.632
And so that's just, you know, I'm still processing that, but I want more spaces for us like that.

00:44:20.533 --> 00:44:24.093
And I miss that space, to be honest, all the time. I'm like,

00:44:24.133 --> 00:44:26.413
I wish we had our weekly meeting still.

00:44:28.313 --> 00:44:33.093
Yeah. So that's what I encourage people to do is how can you free yourself?

00:44:33.353 --> 00:44:36.193
Right. How, what does that mean to you?

00:44:36.633 --> 00:44:40.513
What are things in your life that you have to let go? What are people, relationships?

00:44:40.893 --> 00:44:45.213
That's what I really believe. It's like abolition. It starts as an internal process.

00:44:46.833 --> 00:44:50.633
All right. All right. So, Dr. Brittany Friedman, first of all, thank you for coming on.

00:44:51.133 --> 00:44:57.473
How can people get Carceral Apartheid, how lies and white supremacists run our

00:44:57.473 --> 00:45:02.313
prisons, and how can people reach out to you to either talk about the book or

00:45:02.313 --> 00:45:03.893
just pick your brain about stuff?

00:45:03.893 --> 00:45:10.833
You can get your copy of Carceral Apartheid pretty much anywhere online and

00:45:10.833 --> 00:45:12.513
at your local bookstore.

00:45:12.873 --> 00:45:17.593
And I have found if your local bookstore, if it doesn't have a copy of my book,

00:45:17.713 --> 00:45:22.893
if you tell them they will get copies in, we have to support independent booksellers.

00:45:23.783 --> 00:45:27.663
Some of my favorite that have an online presence where you can order my book

00:45:27.663 --> 00:45:33.023
online and support Black-owned independent bookstores are Harriet's Bookshop.

00:45:33.183 --> 00:45:34.683
They have an online store.

00:45:35.163 --> 00:45:39.103
Marcus Books, the oldest Black-owned bookstore in the country,

00:45:39.303 --> 00:45:41.743
has my book in-store and online.

00:45:42.183 --> 00:45:46.923
And Reparations Club here in LA, they have an online store and they have it in-store.

00:45:47.143 --> 00:45:52.343
So I highly encourage you to support, you know, your independent booksellers.

00:45:52.463 --> 00:45:57.143
And then if you want to chat with me or find me, my handle is the same everywhere.

00:45:57.483 --> 00:46:00.343
So luckily it is at Curly Professor.

00:46:00.763 --> 00:46:07.943
My favorite place, I like Blue Sky right now, but I am on Instagram and I am on X.

00:46:08.503 --> 00:46:12.103
Just, yeah, I'm on X still, but you can find me on the other places.

00:46:12.243 --> 00:46:14.383
And my website is BrittanyFriedman.com.

00:46:14.923 --> 00:46:19.403
Yeah, well, Dr. Freeman, don't feel guilty about X. I'm still on it, too. Thank you, Eric.

00:46:19.823 --> 00:46:25.083
I do it primarily for the podcast, but yeah, I'm still on there.

00:46:25.763 --> 00:46:33.243
But again, just thank you for coming on. I really, really appreciated being able to read this book.

00:46:34.463 --> 00:46:39.363
And it got me going into some of the other stuff that had happened,

00:46:39.483 --> 00:46:43.283
like with George Jackson and then the Attica prison.

00:46:43.523 --> 00:46:47.083
Because, you know, I was like a baby, basically. I was like,

00:46:47.163 --> 00:46:50.163
you know, preschool when all this stuff was going on.

00:46:50.463 --> 00:46:53.923
But I remember images, right? And being a student of history,

00:46:54.123 --> 00:46:57.603
it's like, you know, in the culture, Attica's always there and,

00:46:57.723 --> 00:47:00.803
of course, Pelican Bay and San Quentin and Soledad.

00:47:00.803 --> 00:47:07.003
So you kind of bring a lot of that home and I'm glad you really kind of got

00:47:07.003 --> 00:47:11.183
me energized into looking into it a little more.

00:47:11.363 --> 00:47:14.283
So I appreciate that. And again, thank you for coming on.

00:47:14.963 --> 00:47:18.983
Thank you, Erik. That means so much to me. I appreciate it. All right, guys.

00:47:19.120 --> 00:47:37.520
Music.

00:47:40.047 --> 00:47:47.227
All right, and we are back. So I want to thank Dr. Brittany Friedman for coming on.

00:47:48.207 --> 00:47:57.587
As stated, my plan was to take a break and be on vacation, but I've been wanting

00:47:57.587 --> 00:47:59.207
to get this sister on for a while,

00:48:00.547 --> 00:48:08.047
and we worked it out where she could come in and do the interview and I hope

00:48:08.047 --> 00:48:10.167
that you got something from it.

00:48:10.287 --> 00:48:14.167
As I said during the interview, we really only scratched the surface.

00:48:14.167 --> 00:48:19.967
I suggest that you get this book, Carceral Apartheid, and read it for yourself.

00:48:21.607 --> 00:48:26.107
And hopefully there'll be a follow-up to that.

00:48:26.247 --> 00:48:32.507
We just kind of talked about some of the research that she wasn't able to put in the book. All right.

00:48:34.767 --> 00:48:37.747
But I just, I really thank her for coming on.

00:48:38.307 --> 00:48:41.467
And again, like I said, I hope y'all appreciate it.

00:48:41.587 --> 00:48:45.147
And I'm a little frustrated, not with her,

00:48:45.887 --> 00:48:52.507
but the subject matter she talked about in dealing with white supremacy and

00:48:52.507 --> 00:48:58.027
lies is not just confined to our penal institutions.

00:48:58.687 --> 00:49:01.307
And it's really not just confined to white folks.

00:49:02.247 --> 00:49:11.127
Right? Because any system of oppression to be successful has to have buy-in

00:49:11.127 --> 00:49:13.647
by some of those that are oppressed.

00:49:14.327 --> 00:49:18.307
And there always has to be a face behind it.

00:49:19.867 --> 00:49:23.987
So, you know, I have this bad habit.

00:49:25.304 --> 00:49:32.144
Of paying attention to social media. Now, the main reason is because of the podcast.

00:49:32.504 --> 00:49:35.684
You know, I try to market it and put it out there.

00:49:37.144 --> 00:49:42.484
And so I have to have my presence on all of these platforms.

00:49:43.264 --> 00:49:48.664
And a lot of these platforms I really don't like, but, you know, it's open.

00:49:49.424 --> 00:49:55.224
So anybody that's got an opinion, just like the podcast gives me an opportunity

00:49:55.224 --> 00:49:58.904
to have an opinion, social media gives these people an opportunity to have an

00:49:58.904 --> 00:50:01.724
opinion, and it is what it is.

00:50:02.784 --> 00:50:05.564
So, you know, I was really watching.

00:50:06.704 --> 00:50:08.264
It was something, I don't know

00:50:08.264 --> 00:50:13.024
how old this was, but it was a black congressman who was a Republican.

00:50:13.504 --> 00:50:16.544
I believe he's from Texas. I don't know. I can't remember.

00:50:17.244 --> 00:50:27.424
But he was making the argument that Kamala Harris was a DEI person.

00:50:27.424 --> 00:50:32.684
He was those talking points that white supremacists used. This black man was using it.

00:50:33.204 --> 00:50:36.924
And he was talking about the fact, well, she doesn't have my qualifications.

00:50:36.924 --> 00:50:40.124
I went to West Point and...

00:50:42.580 --> 00:50:47.860
Know, I got represented district that's, you know, majority white and they voted

00:50:47.860 --> 00:50:51.320
for Donald Trump with 20 points and 26.

00:50:52.240 --> 00:50:56.120
And so they're saying that these people were racist, that he wouldn't have won.

00:50:57.080 --> 00:51:02.900
And it's like, you know, if I was the interviewer, I would have asked them,

00:51:03.120 --> 00:51:06.980
so how many people are in the state of California?

00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:10.840
How many congressional districts are in the state of California,

00:51:11.700 --> 00:51:14.700
right? Is California a majority white state?

00:51:15.680 --> 00:51:22.700
Because, you know, if you answer those questions, then you should understand

00:51:22.700 --> 00:51:26.360
that your argument is specious, let alone stupid,

00:51:26.900 --> 00:51:34.160
about Kamala Harris, because you got elected in a district of 700,000, well, 750,000 people.

00:51:35.200 --> 00:51:39.960
She got elected in the largest state in the nation to be their U.S. senator.

00:51:40.820 --> 00:51:45.500
So just on GP, she's gotten more votes in one election than you've probably

00:51:45.500 --> 00:51:46.600
gotten in your whole life.

00:51:47.520 --> 00:51:51.280
And not only that, she was the attorney general for the state of California.

00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:56.240
So again, she has gotten more votes in one election than you've gotten in your whole life.

00:51:57.200 --> 00:52:00.640
And she got to be the vice president of the United States. So she was on a presidential

00:52:00.640 --> 00:52:05.220
ticket, which definitely got more votes than you'll ever get in your lifetime.

00:52:06.060 --> 00:52:12.240
Right? Now, I expect a white person like a Scott Jennings or a Kevin Leary or

00:52:12.240 --> 00:52:20.100
whatever, Brian Todd or Charlie Kirk or any other despicable white man you can think of, right?

00:52:21.800 --> 00:52:27.200
But for a black man to say it, it's just stupid, right?

00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:33.300
It's invidious, right, for a man to say that.

00:52:34.613 --> 00:52:43.573
And it really bothers me because it's like, you don't have to agree on policy positions.

00:52:44.253 --> 00:52:48.553
You know, I think Thomas Sewell is one of the smartest men ever to live.

00:52:48.693 --> 00:52:51.473
And we don't agree on stuff.

00:52:51.733 --> 00:52:54.913
And it took him a minute to get to his point of view.

00:52:55.313 --> 00:52:58.813
Because at one point in time, you understand his background,

00:52:58.853 --> 00:53:01.873
you understand mine. We were pretty similar in thought.

00:53:02.533 --> 00:53:04.173
And we're not that far apart.

00:53:04.913 --> 00:53:10.633
But considering his life experiences compared to mine, I understand why he has

00:53:10.633 --> 00:53:11.633
taken a different route.

00:53:12.213 --> 00:53:17.513
But I would never hear Thomas Sowell say anything negative about me as a black

00:53:17.513 --> 00:53:22.393
man or question my credibility or my credentials, nor will I do the same to

00:53:22.393 --> 00:53:25.773
him. We just disagree on stuff, right?

00:53:26.353 --> 00:53:30.333
But for a black man to belittle another black person, let alone a black woman.

00:53:31.293 --> 00:53:34.993
And yeah, y'all can throw in, she's also Southeast Asian, whatever.

00:53:35.513 --> 00:53:37.513
She's a black woman. She's a woman of color.

00:53:38.153 --> 00:53:46.993
And for you to use the white folks' arguments about her is terrible, right?

00:53:47.193 --> 00:53:52.173
Just man up and just say you disagree with her political viewpoints and keep it moving.

00:53:52.513 --> 00:53:57.693
But to use their talking points, that's not manning up at all.

00:53:58.453 --> 00:54:05.513
And it's just painful for me to hear that, right?

00:54:06.073 --> 00:54:14.553
And then the other day, so Donald Trump shows up at the Federal Reserve, right?

00:54:14.713 --> 00:54:19.793
Now, he's trying to make a show plus other things, and I'll get into that in

00:54:19.793 --> 00:54:23.233
a second, I promise. Because I know I say I'm going to jump on something and

00:54:23.233 --> 00:54:26.733
then I don't get back to it. But I'm going to definitely get back.

00:54:27.693 --> 00:54:31.533
And so he shows up in the Federal Reserve, and he's got Chairman Powell with

00:54:31.533 --> 00:54:36.293
him, and he's got Tim Scott, Senator of South Carolina, with him, right?

00:54:36.793 --> 00:54:44.333
And so Trump was there to try to embarrass Powell in front of the press about

00:54:44.333 --> 00:54:47.513
how much it's costing to renovate the Fed.

00:54:48.753 --> 00:54:54.373
Although if you've read other stories, Trump tried to interject in how the Fed

00:54:54.373 --> 00:55:00.253
was being renovated and wanted to put in like, you know, like marble and other things,

00:55:00.493 --> 00:55:05.573
which would have ran up the cost even more, but he wanted to embarrass the chairman.

00:55:07.166 --> 00:55:14.046
And so when he throws out how much it's costing, the chair looks at him and

00:55:14.046 --> 00:55:17.726
says, yeah, I don't think that's right. I haven't heard that.

00:55:18.586 --> 00:55:22.506
So Trump's pulled out of this sheet of paper and he gives it to the chairman.

00:55:22.666 --> 00:55:25.706
And the chairman looks at the sheet of paper and he says, oh,

00:55:25.726 --> 00:55:28.306
you're factoring in something that's already done.

00:55:29.126 --> 00:55:32.166
And of course, Trump can never be wrong. And he's like, oh, no,

00:55:32.306 --> 00:55:33.526
no, that's what it says in the paper.

00:55:33.526 --> 00:55:41.026
He said, yeah, the building you're talking about that raises the cost up another

00:55:41.026 --> 00:55:46.666
$400 million is being completed five years ago.

00:55:46.806 --> 00:55:49.806
So this was done before you were even president.

00:55:50.466 --> 00:55:56.766
Or if you, well, I take that back. It was done in your first administration, right?

00:55:57.026 --> 00:55:58.506
Now, Powell didn't say that. I'm saying it.

00:55:58.846 --> 00:56:04.506
If it was done five years ago, then that was when Trump was in his last year as president.

00:56:04.566 --> 00:56:10.486
So it was during his administration that this first phase of his project happened.

00:56:11.326 --> 00:56:15.386
And so now Trump is trying to complain, saying, oh, well, it caused more than

00:56:15.386 --> 00:56:21.606
what you're saying on here. He said, no, this is running on schedule because

00:56:21.606 --> 00:56:22.846
this was the biggest phase.

00:56:23.746 --> 00:56:30.766
And to tie in with the Wesley Hunt thing, that was the congressman from Texas I was referring to.

00:56:31.246 --> 00:56:37.146
Here comes Tim Scott saying, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw it says 3.1. Actually, it says 3.2.

00:56:38.610 --> 00:56:44.810
Brother. And we've had our conversations. I know I'm just a small fish in the

00:56:44.810 --> 00:56:47.170
pond. You don't feel you have to respond to it. That's great.

00:56:47.290 --> 00:56:50.530
You don't ever have to talk to me in life, right?

00:56:51.190 --> 00:56:56.490
You've embarrassed yourself enough trying to be president, trying to marry somebody.

00:56:56.990 --> 00:57:01.210
Doesn't even matter if she was a white woman. You just got married thinking

00:57:01.210 --> 00:57:03.890
that you were going to be president or at least vice president, right?

00:57:04.670 --> 00:57:09.430
And here you are, Trump's trying to make a fool of this man and you're down with that.

00:57:09.810 --> 00:57:12.850
Oh, yeah, yeah. You're going to be the peanut gallery. Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:57:13.870 --> 00:57:16.150
Stop doing that, right?

00:57:17.310 --> 00:57:22.430
Stop doing that. You know, I get it. Ambition is blinding.

00:57:23.110 --> 00:57:25.630
Power is enticing. I get it.

00:57:26.410 --> 00:57:32.550
And you want to do anything you can to maintain what you got or move up somewhere.

00:57:32.810 --> 00:57:35.590
Maybe you'll get a cabinet position. Maybe you won't. I don't know.

00:57:36.350 --> 00:57:40.970
And maybe you might get to be president or vice president. I don't know.

00:57:41.370 --> 00:57:44.750
But I just suggest that y'all man up about it, right?

00:57:44.870 --> 00:57:51.070
I'm trying to get away, or I've gotten away from the name-calling part of it.

00:57:51.330 --> 00:57:54.270
But it's still a problem.

00:57:55.330 --> 00:58:04.370
It's still a problem for me to see people not be men and women in this process,

00:58:04.370 --> 00:58:08.210
that they're petulant children, that's a problem with me.

00:58:08.450 --> 00:58:13.270
If Donald Trump wants to be a petulant child, a spoiled brat, then let him do that.

00:58:13.730 --> 00:58:18.170
He's almost, he's 80-something years old. Let him have that, right?

00:58:18.770 --> 00:58:25.150
He ain't going to change. But you young folks, if you really want to gain respect,

00:58:25.310 --> 00:58:29.650
if you really want to get more than half of the population on your side,

00:58:30.050 --> 00:58:31.930
be men and women about it.

00:58:32.650 --> 00:58:37.450
And please stop tearing down people that look like us, right?

00:58:37.950 --> 00:58:42.410
I don't have a problem with groups that push for reparations.

00:58:43.010 --> 00:58:47.530
What I do have a problem with is that you think that you have to destroy other black people.

00:58:47.790 --> 00:58:51.210
I don't care if they're from Ghana. I don't care if they're from Cameroon.

00:58:51.290 --> 00:58:52.590
I don't care if they're from the Caribbean.

00:58:53.590 --> 00:58:57.290
I don't care if they're from Detroit, Atlanta, Chicago, Miami, Jackson.

00:58:58.965 --> 00:59:03.025
You don't have to tear down other black people to make your argument. Make your argument.

00:59:03.525 --> 00:59:08.165
The chips will fall where they may. But nobody's going to take the argument

00:59:08.165 --> 00:59:12.265
serious if part of your strategy is to destroy other black people.

00:59:13.045 --> 00:59:16.445
You'll never get that. But that's my advice.

00:59:17.125 --> 00:59:21.305
Right? And some of y'all have been in the political game. Some of y'all have

00:59:21.305 --> 00:59:23.425
been in the entertainment business.

00:59:24.605 --> 00:59:30.645
You know that solidarity gets us over. Talent will go to you so far.

00:59:31.685 --> 00:59:33.185
Solidarity gets you over the hump.

00:59:34.845 --> 00:59:39.845
That's been the strength of black folks, right?

00:59:40.125 --> 00:59:44.165
And not everybody's going to get on board, but if you get the majority of them,

00:59:44.245 --> 00:59:47.965
if you have the will of the majority of the people behind you,

00:59:48.125 --> 00:59:54.365
if you have the goodwill of black people behind you fighting for black issues, you're going to win.

00:59:55.205 --> 00:59:59.585
I know people are tired of singing, We Shall Overcome, but unfortunately,

00:59:59.725 --> 01:00:01.005
the song is still relevant.

01:00:01.165 --> 01:00:04.205
You may not want to sing it anymore, but we still have to overcome.

01:00:05.445 --> 01:00:10.505
We still have battles to fight. If that was the case, then we wouldn't have

01:00:10.505 --> 01:00:12.105
a situation like Breonna Taylor.

01:00:12.225 --> 01:00:14.985
We wouldn't have a situation like Sandra Bland. We wouldn't have a situation

01:00:14.985 --> 01:00:22.425
like George Floyd or Philando Castile or just Rodney. who wouldn't keep having

01:00:22.425 --> 01:00:25.865
these situations if we have totally overcome, right?

01:00:28.105 --> 01:00:34.345
So that's my personal gripe. If you want to be a fool, you're a fool.

01:00:35.947 --> 01:00:42.747
But if you want to be a man and a woman and be an adult in the political game, then be one.

01:00:43.627 --> 01:00:48.347
You don't have to agree with me. You don't have to agree with Vice President

01:00:48.347 --> 01:00:50.487
Harris. You don't have to agree with President Obama.

01:00:50.867 --> 01:00:55.067
You don't have to agree with any Democrat of color.

01:00:55.767 --> 01:00:58.707
But respect the journey that got us to where we are.

01:00:59.567 --> 01:01:05.827
Respect the fact that all of us have done something worthy of having our opinions

01:01:05.827 --> 01:01:07.427
and our voices to be heard.

01:01:08.187 --> 01:01:13.627
If we're not trying to minimize your qualifications, don't minimize ours. Right?

01:01:14.367 --> 01:01:21.947
I think it's incredible that two black men that were in the same class at West

01:01:21.947 --> 01:01:24.027
Point are now both members of Congress.

01:01:24.547 --> 01:01:26.547
Doesn't matter that they're both Republicans.

01:01:27.247 --> 01:01:30.607
It is what it is. It's an amazing achievement.

01:01:30.967 --> 01:01:35.087
And to be honest, three people in the class, that same class,

01:01:35.267 --> 01:01:38.667
are now members of Congress. It's just that the Democrat is a white guy.

01:01:39.687 --> 01:01:44.627
But three members of one class in West Point are now serving the United States

01:01:44.627 --> 01:01:45.947
Congress. That's an achievement.

01:01:46.727 --> 01:01:50.307
And there's a bond between them that will never be broken.

01:01:51.187 --> 01:01:55.887
Right? That's something to be celebrated. But if I turned around and said,

01:01:56.067 --> 01:01:58.867
well, you know, the two black guys, they were DEI.

01:01:58.987 --> 01:02:03.607
The white guy was qualified, but y'all two just got in and y'all had to sleep

01:02:03.607 --> 01:02:06.507
in the Robert E. Lee barracks. You'd be upset.

01:02:07.367 --> 01:02:12.387
So why would you think that black folks wouldn't be upset if you disqualified

01:02:12.387 --> 01:02:14.547
another black person? Right.

01:02:15.467 --> 01:02:17.167
You ain't got to agree with our politics.

01:02:18.447 --> 01:02:22.667
But stop disparaging the character of other black people. Right. Right.

01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:29.620
Man. I just, I just, that's just aggravating. But now let me get back to the president,

01:02:30.940 --> 01:02:37.060
because that whole thing with Powell and now we're reliving the greatest hits

01:02:37.060 --> 01:02:44.420
and saying that Obama was treasonous and Joe Biden did this and the dog did

01:02:44.420 --> 01:02:46.020
that and the cat did this.

01:02:46.140 --> 01:02:49.480
And, you know, all these other things that are happening right now,

01:02:49.620 --> 01:02:55.740
you're trying to make a deal with a convicted sex offender just so you will

01:02:55.740 --> 01:02:58.140
get your name cleared, right?

01:02:58.600 --> 01:03:04.560
This is not reality TV, ladies and gentlemen. This is really happening. This is real life.

01:03:05.600 --> 01:03:12.180
And, you know, we have a president that is allergic to accountability.

01:03:12.720 --> 01:03:15.980
It's not that he doesn't know what it is. He's allergic to it.

01:03:16.460 --> 01:03:21.140
He will never be accountable for anything he's done, good or bad.

01:03:22.520 --> 01:03:28.580
Because if he thinks something is good and then a few years later it bites him

01:03:28.580 --> 01:03:32.420
in the butt, he's going to deny being involved with it, right?

01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:38.160
He's picked cabinet members who have already destroyed his complaint before

01:03:38.160 --> 01:03:39.500
he even makes the complaint.

01:03:40.000 --> 01:03:43.340
Can we say Marco Rubio, right? Right.

01:03:45.508 --> 01:03:51.328
Tell one reporter, well, I think Tulsa Gabbard is wrong, and she's the director

01:03:51.328 --> 01:03:52.288
of national intelligence.

01:03:52.508 --> 01:03:57.428
She's trying to tell you that the action you're getting ready to take is not

01:03:57.428 --> 01:03:59.328
based on any evidence we have found.

01:03:59.768 --> 01:04:09.848
You say she is wrong, but she's right when she says that Barack Obama committed treason.

01:04:10.488 --> 01:04:14.608
And when that same reporter that you told Tulsa Gabbard was wrong,

01:04:14.928 --> 01:04:17.268
you turn around and when she says,

01:04:17.408 --> 01:04:21.748
well, don't you think that she's just trying to curry favor with you,

01:04:22.268 --> 01:04:28.428
trying to show that she's on the team by doing this little stunt for you, right?

01:04:29.228 --> 01:04:30.988
And folks want to get upset.

01:04:32.668 --> 01:04:38.188
It's called accountability, Mr. President. Mr. President, it's when you took

01:04:38.188 --> 01:04:42.648
that position, and this is the second time you've had it, At some point,

01:04:42.808 --> 01:04:45.388
you need to understand that Harry S.

01:04:45.468 --> 01:04:50.548
Truman's rule applied before he was president and it applies now. The buck stops with you.

01:04:51.348 --> 01:04:56.728
And whatever happened in your life prior to being president is all about you.

01:04:56.728 --> 01:05:00.108
If you were friends with Jeffrey Epstein, you were friends with him.

01:05:01.648 --> 01:05:07.128
Regardless of what he did or what he's accused of doing, he's dead.

01:05:07.268 --> 01:05:11.688
So he's not going to be accountable anymore. Not on this realm anyway.

01:05:12.468 --> 01:05:18.148
But you're still with us. And you have to be responsible for your actions.

01:05:18.828 --> 01:05:26.068
If you knew, then you knew. And you can do like any other criminal and try to deny that you did it.

01:05:26.728 --> 01:05:29.328
That's fine. Or you can be accountable.

01:05:30.168 --> 01:05:34.888
If you weren't part of it, then you weren't part of it. If you are part of it.

01:05:36.460 --> 01:05:41.900
Let us know what's going on. And if you weren't part of it, but you do things

01:05:41.900 --> 01:05:47.960
that make you think that you were like, hey, let me know. Right.

01:05:48.680 --> 01:05:53.140
Speaking about accountability. So one of the jokes I tell is I have a friend

01:05:53.140 --> 01:05:55.620
who was a member of the FBI.

01:05:56.520 --> 01:06:00.760
And when I was elected official, I would joke with her and tell her, hey, look.

01:06:01.600 --> 01:06:06.220
You know, if they ever start looking into me, you let me know.

01:06:06.820 --> 01:06:09.500
And she was like, I can't do that. I said, you better let me know.

01:06:10.040 --> 01:06:12.480
That was a joke because she can't.

01:06:13.100 --> 01:06:16.300
She might be the agent assigned to the case. She can't let me know.

01:06:16.900 --> 01:06:19.040
But we knew it was a joke, right? Right.

01:06:20.080 --> 01:06:23.600
President Trump doesn't think that's a joke. He thinks that he's supposed to

01:06:23.600 --> 01:06:27.640
know if he's under investigation or if his name comes up in a criminal.

01:06:28.720 --> 01:06:32.260
You're not supposed to know that. And the attorney general is definitely not

01:06:32.260 --> 01:06:33.260
supposed to be the one to tell you.

01:06:34.020 --> 01:06:38.420
You don't put that on the attorney general because the attorney general is only

01:06:38.420 --> 01:06:41.240
appointed by you. They're not your lawyers.

01:06:41.980 --> 01:06:47.040
If you want your lawyers to work for you, then just let them build their own

01:06:47.040 --> 01:06:48.240
little firm in Washington.

01:06:49.020 --> 01:06:54.420
Since you wanted to neuter a law firm in Washington, D.C., you should have just

01:06:54.420 --> 01:06:59.340
told them, make all these people partners in the firm. So that way,

01:06:59.980 --> 01:07:02.020
if someone went down with you, they would do that.

01:07:02.580 --> 01:07:05.480
And maybe down the line when all these folks are out of office,

01:07:05.700 --> 01:07:07.540
maybe that is part of the deal. I don't know.

01:07:08.340 --> 01:07:13.260
Other than getting the money and doing pro bono cases and whatever, right? Right.

01:07:15.008 --> 01:07:20.208
All these different things you're throwing out here, and you're following Steve

01:07:20.208 --> 01:07:22.048
Bannon's playbook to the T,

01:07:22.788 --> 01:07:30.528
just flood the zone with stuff, and you got poor folks on MSNBC and CNN and

01:07:30.528 --> 01:07:35.428
Fox all having debates about all your distractions when the focus should be

01:07:35.428 --> 01:07:41.008
about your involvement with a human trafficker.

01:07:41.408 --> 01:07:44.108
Either you were involved with it or you were not.

01:07:45.008 --> 01:07:48.428
All this other crazy stuff you're doing to try to deflect from that,

01:07:49.008 --> 01:07:50.888
people see it for what it is.

01:07:52.448 --> 01:07:58.048
Now, the folks that are going to defend you no matter what, they're going to

01:07:58.048 --> 01:07:59.628
do their part. They're going to be the cheerleaders.

01:07:59.788 --> 01:08:05.368
They're going to recite the stupid stuff in front of intelligent people.

01:08:06.068 --> 01:08:11.928
But, you know, if it wasn't for ratings, Scott Jennings would not be on CNN,

01:08:12.728 --> 01:08:17.228
right? He'd be working at Fox because that's where that mindset is.

01:08:17.388 --> 01:08:21.168
If you want to be cheerleaders for the president, totally biased,

01:08:21.648 --> 01:08:23.588
then you need to work for a network that's like that.

01:08:26.168 --> 01:08:29.828
CNN, they want to get a share of the Fox group.

01:08:31.108 --> 01:08:35.308
So they allow people like Scott Jennings and Kevin Leary, which again,

01:08:35.548 --> 01:08:40.968
Kevin Leary is not even a citizen of the United States. So why is he even in the discussion? Right.

01:08:41.788 --> 01:08:47.168
The only time he should be on is about either business news or immigration,

01:08:47.428 --> 01:08:50.448
since he's I guess he's on a visa.

01:08:50.588 --> 01:08:53.228
I don't know. He's not an American citizen. He's Canadian.

01:08:54.048 --> 01:08:58.588
And he has a citizenship with UAE, Dubai. Right.

01:08:59.992 --> 01:09:02.932
This in the United States, but we give him, he doesn't even vote.

01:09:03.632 --> 01:09:08.492
And we give him cash aid to have discussions about American politics,

01:09:08.872 --> 01:09:12.172
like almost every night. Doesn't make any sense.

01:09:13.012 --> 01:09:18.452
But it's for entertainment. It's for ratings. It's not for intelligent discussion.

01:09:19.292 --> 01:09:23.172
There are a number of people, Democrat and Republican, that you could put on

01:09:23.172 --> 01:09:29.812
TV shows and have political discussions that are intelligent people,

01:09:30.632 --> 01:09:38.772
civil people, but TV news is not for news anymore. It's for entertainment.

01:09:39.112 --> 01:09:43.512
It's no different than watching Survivor, if that's still on,

01:09:43.792 --> 01:09:46.952
or Dancing with the Stars or whatever.

01:09:47.712 --> 01:09:52.992
You know, when I want to watch news that I like, I watch MSNBC.

01:09:53.632 --> 01:10:00.232
If I want to get the whole story, then it's like the BBC and Reuters,

01:10:00.652 --> 01:10:05.892
whoever, read AP, whatever, Snoops or Snopes, right?

01:10:06.172 --> 01:10:13.132
But not, you know, if I'm trying to build my arguments, then I'm going to listen

01:10:13.132 --> 01:10:16.852
to the folks at MSNBC because they're on my side, Right?

01:10:17.872 --> 01:10:26.272
And I make no secret about my allegiance and my history with the Democratic Party. It is what it is.

01:10:26.732 --> 01:10:31.312
Right? And folks, black folks and white folks can criticize me for that.

01:10:31.472 --> 01:10:34.272
That's fine. That's my life. You know?

01:10:35.132 --> 01:10:39.252
I'm just like the athlete that plays for one team their whole career.

01:10:39.772 --> 01:10:42.052
Been a Democrat my whole political career.

01:10:42.612 --> 01:10:45.112
So that's my mindset. Right?

01:10:45.992 --> 01:10:51.352
But when Democrats do something stupid, like Bob Menendez or Bill Clinton, we call them out on it.

01:10:52.132 --> 01:10:57.672
Part of my legacy in politics was that I was not afraid to call out the Democratic

01:10:57.672 --> 01:11:00.272
governor I had the privilege of serving under for four years.

01:11:00.832 --> 01:11:03.172
Or other Democratic elected officials.

01:11:03.872 --> 01:11:05.152
Probably to my detriment.

01:11:06.772 --> 01:11:10.172
Because in-house fighting is worse than street fighting.

01:11:11.632 --> 01:11:17.072
But the difference between me and some of these folks that are now in positions,

01:11:17.432 --> 01:11:22.872
selected positions, is that focus is not about currying favor with folks that

01:11:22.872 --> 01:11:24.052
are trying to destroy me.

01:11:24.692 --> 01:11:29.052
It's about defending the people that need my help, right?

01:11:29.552 --> 01:11:34.072
There are people in Texas, there are people in South Carolina that need your

01:11:34.072 --> 01:11:37.292
full attention, gentlemen, not the guy in the White House.

01:11:37.932 --> 01:11:41.212
He could care less about what you do, how you do it, how you say it.

01:11:41.772 --> 01:11:52.432
There's people in Florida, people in Indiana, Kansas, South Dakota that really need help.

01:11:54.384 --> 01:12:00.164
Sure that they can live their lives. People in Georgia, people in Mississippi,

01:12:00.404 --> 01:12:02.944
there's people, Illinois, there's people that need help.

01:12:04.024 --> 01:12:11.904
And worrying about who's in what file and, you know, all these different things,

01:12:12.024 --> 01:12:14.124
which, by the way, that was a pretty low thing to do.

01:12:14.584 --> 01:12:22.424
Speaking about files, I'm glad that Reverend Bernice and Martin III publicly

01:12:22.424 --> 01:12:26.524
chastised the president for what he did in releasing their dad's files.

01:12:27.504 --> 01:12:30.384
Part of the distraction, flood the zone strategy, right?

01:12:31.304 --> 01:12:35.644
You know, but people are more concerned about when I get up this morning.

01:12:36.664 --> 01:12:39.844
Is it going to be safe for me to drop my kids off at school?

01:12:40.764 --> 01:12:45.784
Is there a school for my child to go to? Are the roads going to be safe?

01:12:45.904 --> 01:12:49.144
Are the bridges going to be safe for me to cross? getting to work?

01:12:49.624 --> 01:12:52.244
Will I even have a job at the end of the day?

01:12:52.824 --> 01:12:55.484
Will my business close? Will I get laid off?

01:12:56.304 --> 01:13:02.384
If I get sick, will I be able to afford the health care that I need?

01:13:03.084 --> 01:13:10.744
When I go to the store to try to feed my family, will I be able to get everything I need to feed them?

01:13:11.464 --> 01:13:14.464
Will there be a park for my kids to play in?

01:13:15.304 --> 01:13:18.924
Do I have to worry about crime in my neighborhood?

01:13:19.804 --> 01:13:24.484
These are what people care about every day. Can I keep my house?

01:13:25.264 --> 01:13:29.124
Are the laws there to protect me or to hinder me?

01:13:29.924 --> 01:13:32.864
Can I afford increases in my tax rates?

01:13:33.544 --> 01:13:38.584
Or will I have to sell this house that My family's been in for 40 years just

01:13:38.584 --> 01:13:42.424
because they want to create a walkway nearby.

01:13:43.304 --> 01:13:47.104
These are real conversations. These are real concerns that people are having.

01:13:47.804 --> 01:13:52.104
If my car breaks down, will there be public transportation for me to get to work?

01:13:52.644 --> 01:13:56.244
Can I afford an Uber or a Lyft?

01:13:57.204 --> 01:14:00.684
Right? These are real questions that people deal with every day.

01:14:01.364 --> 01:14:04.284
If I get a job, can I afford childcare? here?

01:14:05.084 --> 01:14:09.424
If I can't get any government assistance, then where can I go?

01:14:10.484 --> 01:14:15.104
These are the questions that people need answers to, not who's on what file.

01:14:15.924 --> 01:14:20.064
If you know you did a crime, the best advice,

01:14:20.684 --> 01:14:29.404
is to not say anything about it, not create more mess, not try to say,

01:14:29.564 --> 01:14:32.284
well, if I'm a criminal, Everybody's a criminal. That's not how that works.

01:14:34.355 --> 01:14:40.055
If you want to distract the American people from any bad stuff you may have

01:14:40.055 --> 01:14:42.735
done in your life, then do something good.

01:14:43.455 --> 01:14:47.995
Instead of making tax cuts for rich people that you want to hang around with

01:14:47.995 --> 01:14:54.655
permanent, make the tax cut on tips and overtime permanent. Right?

01:14:55.315 --> 01:14:59.415
If that's what you want to do, raise the minimum wage.

01:15:00.195 --> 01:15:07.095
And not just the $15. That ship sailed five, six years ago. You got to raise it to $20 now.

01:15:07.815 --> 01:15:12.055
You know, when the bailouts were happening, you said, Mr. President,

01:15:12.295 --> 01:15:14.415
that, well, businesses should fail.

01:15:14.875 --> 01:15:23.575
But if a business can't afford to pay somebody $20, you want to accommodate that, right?

01:15:24.235 --> 01:15:28.615
I just think we've got our priorities mixed up.

01:15:28.615 --> 01:15:36.615
I think we're all about entertaining and being destructive instead of being,

01:15:37.255 --> 01:15:39.675
serious and being productive.

01:15:41.195 --> 01:15:47.095
And that's, and we've got to get in back into that direction. We got to get serious.

01:15:47.455 --> 01:15:50.615
We want to be entertained. We've got sports.

01:15:51.875 --> 01:15:56.575
We've got music. We've got movies. All right. Got,

01:15:57.860 --> 01:16:02.400
We have poetry readings. That's entertaining.

01:16:03.180 --> 01:16:08.480
People that are supposed to be making decisions about how our society operates,

01:16:08.980 --> 01:16:10.520
that's not about entertainment.

01:16:10.920 --> 01:16:12.580
That's serious business.

01:16:13.820 --> 01:16:17.060
And instead of trying to destroy your opponent, just beat them.

01:16:17.620 --> 01:16:24.120
Just beat them fair and square. You don't have to redraw lines and alter voting

01:16:24.120 --> 01:16:29.140
machines and algorithms and all. Just go out to people and say,

01:16:29.260 --> 01:16:32.560
hey, I'm the best person for this job because.

01:16:33.420 --> 01:16:37.220
And if people say yes, then it was meant for you to have it.

01:16:37.680 --> 01:16:41.480
If the people say no, you find another way to contribute.

01:16:42.220 --> 01:16:46.300
But you don't destroy the system because you didn't get your way.

01:16:48.540 --> 01:16:53.700
Literally, I got to close this out. But, you know, I dealt with this firsthand

01:16:53.700 --> 01:16:55.360
like an organization I was in.

01:16:56.220 --> 01:17:01.440
The chapter would have an election, and then the person who didn't win would

01:17:01.440 --> 01:17:05.280
go and start a whole new chapter just so they could be in charge of something.

01:17:05.420 --> 01:17:07.440
That's not how this works.

01:17:08.320 --> 01:17:11.280
And there was no money involved with that, right?

01:17:11.760 --> 01:17:17.380
There were no trillions of dollars in play on that. It was just ego.

01:17:18.860 --> 01:17:24.020
And that was petty. And that's all this is now at a national level.

01:17:24.020 --> 01:17:26.020
And there are trillions of dollars in play.

01:17:26.780 --> 01:17:30.600
And you letting mad men make policy.

01:17:31.360 --> 01:17:35.380
We got to kick 3,000 people out of the country every day. Really?

01:17:36.220 --> 01:17:40.940
I mean, I haven't done the math, but I don't think that equates to 20 million.

01:17:41.560 --> 01:17:45.660
That's the number y'all keep throwing out about how many people undocumented.

01:17:46.460 --> 01:17:50.460
I don't think you can kick out 20 million people in a year. Amen.

01:17:51.288 --> 01:17:57.668
I don't know. That might work out on a daily basis, but you're not going to

01:17:57.668 --> 01:17:59.208
arrest 3,000 people in a day.

01:17:59.568 --> 01:18:04.768
Regular police departments in major cities don't meet that threshold every day

01:18:04.768 --> 01:18:09.168
for real criminal stuff, you know.

01:18:09.168 --> 01:18:13.848
And then you're cheating because it's like if the people are at the courthouse

01:18:13.848 --> 01:18:17.148
trying to get their situation straight, right?

01:18:17.428 --> 01:18:22.388
That's just like arresting somebody in immigration court trying to get their

01:18:22.388 --> 01:18:30.608
status squared away. It's just like you're in court dealing with a traffic ticket for insurance.

01:18:31.108 --> 01:18:34.948
You didn't have insurance at the stop, so you go to court.

01:18:36.768 --> 01:18:39.448
Now, at that point, you're before the judge, right?

01:18:40.968 --> 01:18:45.428
So the officer can't turn around and give you another ticket for not having

01:18:45.428 --> 01:18:47.668
insurance while you're in court, right?

01:18:48.088 --> 01:18:52.668
They can't arrest you or in some state.

01:18:52.908 --> 01:18:55.848
In Georgia, it's an arrest when you write a ticket. But, you know,

01:18:55.908 --> 01:19:00.068
they can't write you another ticket because you're in court dealing with the issue.

01:19:00.988 --> 01:19:07.428
So why is ICE allowed to go in and arrest people that's in immigration court?

01:19:08.088 --> 01:19:12.968
Because you're trying to meet a quota. That's insanity. That's the sign of a madman.

01:19:13.408 --> 01:19:17.108
And you're trying to cater to madmen and madwomen.

01:19:17.848 --> 01:19:23.648
It's time for us to get serious and productive about our politics.

01:19:24.548 --> 01:19:29.068
And if black folks are going to be the contents of it, and the last thing we

01:19:29.068 --> 01:19:34.668
need to do is to tear each other down just because we're on opposite sides.

01:19:36.408 --> 01:19:40.748
All right, that's all I got. Thank y'all for listening. Until next time.

01:19:40.720 --> 01:20:29.034
Music.