Breaking Barriers & Unpacking Privilege Featuring Eileen Isola and Ryan Virden

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Hello, and welcome to Another Moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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And so today, I have two guests who have written books. One is Eileen Isola.

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And Eileen is a former lieutenant colonel with the U.S. Air Force.

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And she has written this book about the history of women in the U.S.

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Air Force that went through the U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs.

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Very, very moving and compelling history,

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which uses the actual testimonies from people who went through the Academy from

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the very beginning all the way to this last class in 2026.

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So we're going to be talking to her, and then we're going to be talking to this

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young man named Ryan Virden, who has written this book called Breaking the Privilege Frame,

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in which he discusses how we can end the mindset of white privilege in the United States of America.

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So I hope that you will enjoy those interviews.

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And as always, we will encourage you to support the podcast.

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Go to www.momenteric.com to do that.

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And you can either give a one-time donation or you can subscribe to the podcast

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and the website will show you how to do either one of those things.

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If you want to catch up with past episodes, all that stuff, please feel free

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to do that. One of the things I think is really cool for people is to see who all has been on the show.

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And you can go to the guest page link and just see all the magnificent guests

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that I've had on the show.

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And we are continuing to grow that. And again, I hope that you are enjoying

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all these interviews that we are doing.

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Very interesting time we're living in, as always.

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So I encourage you all not only to listen to me, but other independent podcasters,

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especially black independent podcasters.

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The content that is coming out is powerful and really addressing some of the

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things that need to be addressed.

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And some serious like mine and some are really, really humorous,

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but they're all serving the same mission and that's to try to get people to

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think and get people inspired to make the changes that need to be made to make,

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America live up to its pledge,

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to be a more perfect union.

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All right, so now that we've got the formalities out the way,

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it's time to kick this program off.

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And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Thanks, Erik. A Mississippi grand jury will review the death of black teenager

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Nolan Wells, keeping evidence temporarily sealed to protect the integrity of

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the routine investigation.

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A Georgia teenager received a life sentence for a fatal 2024 school shooting,

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and his father was sentenced to 15 years in prison for providing the weapon.

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A Democratic National Committee panel voted to keep South Carolina as the first

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presidential primary state for 2028, prioritizing its crucial black voter base

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over Nevada's push for the spot.

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A federal appeals court upheld an injunction blocking the Trump administration

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from implementing an executive order designed to tighten mail-in voting rules

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in 23 states ahead of the November elections.

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Elon Musk's America PAC plans to spend up to $120 million on voter turnout efforts

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to help Republicans retain control of Congress in the upcoming November elections.

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Former infectious disease expert Anthony Fauci invoked his Fifth Amendment rights

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to avoid answering questions at a Senate hearing, prompting Senator Rand Paul

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to schedule a contempt vote.

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Hadi Mattar, already serving 25 years for stabbing author Salman Rushdie in

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2022, was found guilty of federal terrorism charges and faces a potential life sentence.

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The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services announced the termination of

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a subsidy program for Medicare prescription drug plans after 2026,

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stating insurers can now accurately price plans without federal support.

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The CDC has recorded 6,707 confirmed cases of cyclosporiasis since May 1,

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with over 11,500 suspected cases pending investigation.

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And the CDC also reported 2,318 U.S. measles cases this year,

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the highest annual total in 35 years due to declining vaccination rates.

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I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for

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my guest, Eileen Isola.

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Eileen Isola is the lead editor for Necessary Turbulence, 50 Years,

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One Unbreakable Sisterhood Forged in the Crucible of the Air Force Academy.

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Former U.S. Air Force commander and decorated combat pilot who now flies internationally,

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She was the first woman to serve as an advanced agent to the President of the United States,

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flew high-performance jets, trained combat pilots, invaded other countries,

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airlifted humanitarian relief, resupplied Amazon jungle radar sites,

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commanded an Air Force squadron, and crumbled barriers for women who wanted to serve their country.

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A graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, she has spoken at universities,

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professional women's aviation events, and to business and community organizations.

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It has been featured on the front page of the New York Times.

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When out at 40,000 feet in her front row seat to the universe,

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she makes her home in Virginia.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest,

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on this podcast, Eileen Isola.

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All right. Eileen Isola, Lieutenant Colonel Eileen Isola. How are you doing?

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Very well, Erik. Thanks for having me today.

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Well, I'm honored to have you on. Like I just, my last episode,

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I had an airman from the Air Force on.

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And what I told her, I'm going to tell you, is that I have a very special place

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in my heart for those who actually serve in the military.

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The only other people I hold in higher regard are social workers.

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So I tell people that if you're a veteran and a social worker, it's like.

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I've hit the ultimate guess, right, as far as who I do. And then teachers,

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of course, too. But yeah, but I really commend you for that.

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And especially with this book that you have written, Necessary Turbulence,

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which talks about, you know, through some collective stories,

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the history of women being in Air Force and especially going through the Air

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Force Academy in Colorado Springs. things.

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So I'm really, really honored to talk to you personally and to talk to you about this book.

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So what I normally do, and that's the old moderator in me, I do a couple of

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icebreakers to get things started.

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So the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to.

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And the quote is, you do what you can for as long as you can.

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And when you finally can't, you do the next best thing. You back up, but you don't give up.

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Yeah, you found a great one amongst all the entirety of this incredible story in this book.

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That is a great summary quote that perfectly describes,

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What we refer to as the collective we, all of these, this incredible,

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extraordinary group of women that almost no one has ever heard of and yet changed

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our society and our country and,

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made our military that much more combat capable.

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And that is that that quote speaks to their persistence, their determination,

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their resilience, and they, as a group, the constantly, individually and as

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a group, constantly having to,

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calibrate and navigate,

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and find their way,

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and to achieve and to lead in inside systems and spaces that never imagined them.

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Women being there were not designed for women and and yet had to do all of that

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typically without a template or any precedence and do it with little to no margin for error and,

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that's that particular quote exquisitely describes our collective and individual

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mindsets that you just keep going Yeah.

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Yeah, that was from when I was growing up. He was considered a superhero, Chuck Yeager. Yeah.

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I said, yeah, that sounds like Mr. Yeager. All right. So the next iceberg is

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what I call 20 questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

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18. All right. What is one thing we might all agree is important no matter our differences?

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Well, there's any number of things I can respond to for that.

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The one thing that we can all agree is that the absence of stories like this

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one from our collective American narrative and chronicle,

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mean that we as a society lack the full picture of what our American story,

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our history consists of.

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And when groups, entire groups of people are missing from the record,

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our understanding becomes incomplete.

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And when a society is missing pieces of itself, our next generations don't see what's possible.

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And then they're left.

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They don't even know that they absolutely can go through any door they want.

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They can be or do absolutely anything they want to do or be and navigate through

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any door they want, including the doors they didn't even know were there.

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And it's the absence of stories from groups, like are told through this story,

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that leaves, and this is my personal, something that's important to me,

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that it leaves our next generation and subsequent generations never knowing,

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what's possible for themselves and for our society and our country.

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And I think we can absolutely all agree on that. Yeah.

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All right. So before we get into the book, Necessary Turbulence,

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I need to pick your brain on a couple of issues.

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Okay. So the very first agency, the Department of Government Efficiency,

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or DOGE, cut was the Federal Aviation Authority.

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Right after that, we had the terrible helicopter plane collision at Reagan National.

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So I have two questions. As a commercial pilot, why is the FAA important? Yeah.

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The FAA is the single organization for this country that handles everything to do with aviation.

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It is an entirely different, unlike any other industry, and there are many industries

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that could say the same, respectively.

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But there is nothing else, no body anywhere,

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that defines all the rules for operating safely at every possible dimension

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of what it takes to navigate, to fly any aircraft of any kind.

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Big, small, helicopter, airplane, hot air balloon, you name it.

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There is no other organization that handles that.

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Including the air traffic controllers, including maintenance standards,

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every single aspect, and there's not enough time for me to attempt to laundry list out,

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all the dimensions inside this one industry that we term aviation.

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It is the sole organization that defines, manages, executes,

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holds the standards, and holds people and organizations accountable to those standards.

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And I'll just quickly, you talked about, you mentioned the Reagan accident.

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I will just say that for your listeners,

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that accident in and of itself, and I'm speaking now personally as a commercial

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pilot, I am not speaking as the FAA or any other organization,

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that accident did not happen solely because of a decision that was made within

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a short period of time, whether it was budgetary or staffing or whatever.

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There are a number of issues within the entirety of the air traffic control

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system, meaning airports, towers, airplanes, helicopters, hot air balloons, blimps, you name it,

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that have been compounding for several years.

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And in that particular little chunk of airspace right there in Washington, D.C.,

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anybody who's taken the time to actually go read the report out of the National

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Transportation Safety Board will quickly come away understanding that,

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that that was an almost doomed to happen event that had to do with a whole host

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of compounding decisions over time.

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Well, Eileen, if I had a bingo card, I would have won because I said,

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you know, sometimes when I ask people questions, I kind of anticipate what they're going to say.

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And sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised, sometimes I'm just surprised.

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But I knew that you were going to be very professional in giving that and giving

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a complete picture about what happened.

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That it not necessarily was a direct correlation, but the timing image-wise

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and me being a political person. Absolutely. It was very, very mad.

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And all pilots that have flown by in and out of Reagan, me included,

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we have all said, and there are other places around the country we have the same concerns for.

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That the changes, the things that have been allowed to pile up and wave people

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have been allowed, airplanes, whatever decisions made to pile up that led to that accident,

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are similar to other places around the country that we pilots have been raising

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the stink about for a very long time.

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And it's a horrible tragedy to have a way to get the organizations,

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the government's attention to frickin' make the changes that should have been made a long time ago.

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Yeah. So that leads me to the next question.

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What is the difference between military piloting and commercial piloting,

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especially when it comes to communications?

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Because that was kind of just the report that it was a communications failure,

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as folks didn't know where other people were at the time.

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So inside, within the, I'll say domestic airspace, you know,

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around, right around the country, we're not at war here inside the U.S.

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We're not doing combat operations, all that kind of stuff.

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Everybody flies by the same rules.

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And in that particular incident, for example, the military, though, is allowed

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to operate and do things differently in order to train like how we're going

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to actually operate in a combat or a high stress environment,

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I mean, even if it's not combat, it could be some humanitarian relief operation

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that nonetheless is very complicated.

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I flew in one of those, and it was very challenging.

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Nobody was shooting at each other, but it still made for an extremely complicated

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airspace and an extremely complicated operation.

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So we train inside the U.S. in a whole host of ways and in different areas for

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how we're going to actually operate when we are deployed or some other circumstance.

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Or even inside the U.S. You know, long ago, 20 plus years ago,

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Hurricane Katrina, that was extremely complicated aviation operation that went

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on there with everything that went on with Katrina.

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So now in that particular incident, there were some differences.

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So for example, nobody in the airline world, you know, flying airliners and

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stuff, they don't fly around with night vision goggles on.

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We in the military fly around with night vision goggles on as part of our routine

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training, even when that routine training seems to be something as benign as flying,

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up and down a particular route around a major city or something like that,

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like not in some protected training chunk of airspace away from,

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you know, commercial pilots or commercial aircraft and that kind of thing.

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So we do do that. And we are allowed to do that as part of the routine way that

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we have to, as military pilots, have to learn to be able to operate routinely, comfortably, safely.

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The first time you want a military pilot putting on night vision goggles and

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going out to operate is not when they're in some foreign country in an airspace

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they don't know, with languages that they don't know, with,

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air traffic controllers who speak English, but with very thick accents,

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perhaps, trying to figure out what's happening, what's going on.

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That all happens here inside the U.S. But in general, we absolutely all fly by all the same rules for.

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Speeds and altitudes and keeping track of each other and knowing where other

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aircraft are and those kind of things. Okay.

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What was your motivation for writing this book?

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You know, if you, the answer I give you today is different than the answer I

00:21:09.028 --> 00:21:11.672
would have given you three and a half years ago when we started.

00:21:12.026 --> 00:21:17.928
Three and a half years ago, it was because a group of women realized that 2026 would be

00:21:18.348 --> 00:21:23.768
the year marking 50 years since the doors of the Air Force Academy and the other

00:21:23.768 --> 00:21:27.409
military service academies, but the doors of the Air Force Academy opened to women.

00:21:27.885 --> 00:21:31.251
So the thought came out, you know, hey, we should write a book.

00:21:31.907 --> 00:21:36.748
Now, the answer that I give you now is that in retrospective,

00:21:37.188 --> 00:21:40.568
we knew that there was more than 12,000 women who would enter the Air Force

00:21:40.568 --> 00:21:45.150
Academy over the 50 years from 1976 to 2026.

00:21:45.556 --> 00:21:49.114
And the voices in the group cover that entire 50-year period.

00:21:50.287 --> 00:21:55.828
And we had a deep conviction that somewhere within all of those lives was a

00:21:55.828 --> 00:21:59.938
larger story, a collective journey. The book is not about what it's like to

00:21:59.938 --> 00:22:04.729
be a cadet at the Air Force Academy or just focuses on the Air Force Academy.

00:22:05.020 --> 00:22:10.428
It's the entire 50 years of these women's lives through and with,

00:22:10.428 --> 00:22:12.192
told through and with their voices.

00:22:13.122 --> 00:22:16.899
And we knew there was some sort of a larger story in there, what we call the

00:22:16.899 --> 00:22:22.365
collective heroine's journey, and one that had never been fully seen or heard

00:22:22.580 --> 00:22:24.849
before. And I liken it very much.

00:22:25.609 --> 00:22:29.239
When I speak about the book, I talk all the time about it's like hidden figures.

00:22:29.726 --> 00:22:34.010
Like with hidden figures, like one of my all-time favorite books,

00:22:34.712 --> 00:22:40.757
it wasn't that suddenly we Americans discovered there had been a space race. We knew that.

00:22:41.065 --> 00:22:46.739
What we didn't know was that all of the different, the kinds of people and the

00:22:46.739 --> 00:22:51.889
work that was done that no one had ever heard about, and that it was this extraordinary

00:22:51.889 --> 00:22:54.242
group of women who ultimately,

00:22:54.811 --> 00:22:59.339
put human beings into space, onto the moon, into the International Space Station,

00:22:59.339 --> 00:23:02.859
and now out to the cosmos, headed for Mars someday.

00:23:02.859 --> 00:23:06.519
And it was that extraordinary group of women. And that's the parallel to this

00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:07.762
extraordinary group of women.

00:23:07.918 --> 00:23:10.246
And we knew that story. There was a story in there.

00:23:10.734 --> 00:23:16.029
And we just didn't know what it was. So we put out a call and asked women to

00:23:16.029 --> 00:23:19.662
tell us stories from the entirety of their lives.

00:23:20.266 --> 00:23:23.893
And we ended up with over a half a million words came back to us.

00:23:24.543 --> 00:23:29.129
And it was we went into those over half a million words and we found the story

00:23:29.129 --> 00:23:34.659
as i say that was demanding it be told that needed to be told for some of the

00:23:34.659 --> 00:23:35.916
reasons i already spoke about,

00:23:36.617 --> 00:23:42.214
for for our daughters our nieces our granddaughters and for people everywhere,

00:23:42.826 --> 00:23:48.764
not just women or little girls but people everywhere because it is such a universal story.

00:23:49.517 --> 00:23:56.622
And so we found that collective heroine's journey that unfolded across generations, across these 50 years.

00:23:56.889 --> 00:24:00.784
And with that, everything changed, and we were no longer just writing a book.

00:24:02.380 --> 00:24:09.315
We were shepherding a story into being birthed into the world.

00:24:10.725 --> 00:24:16.883
And making sure that we were faithfully revealing something that had always

00:24:16.883 --> 00:24:21.608
been there, but now needed to be come forward.

00:24:22.084 --> 00:24:26.322
And it was so important to us that we do it with and through these women's voices.

00:24:26.624 --> 00:24:32.693
We didn't just write a single story and make reference to other people,

00:24:32.693 --> 00:24:37.107
other women, that it was there. So think of it like an impressionist painting.

00:24:37.496 --> 00:24:40.480
You know, you're standing up close and you just see a bunch of colored dots.

00:24:40.782 --> 00:24:43.824
And when you step back away from that Impressionist painting,

00:24:44.474 --> 00:24:47.219
you see the painting. The painting was always there.

00:24:47.568 --> 00:24:52.853
But now when you step back, as we did, over 50 years, with over these half a

00:24:52.853 --> 00:24:58.769
million words from these 108 women, boom, it came into view.

00:24:59.698 --> 00:25:06.843
And then we knew we had this incredible responsibility that we weren't just writers or authors.

00:25:06.843 --> 00:25:12.053
We now were curators of something that,

00:25:13.223 --> 00:25:19.083
had always existed but had never come into our world and absolutely needed to,

00:25:19.083 --> 00:25:24.350
that it was this incredible, important part of American history and women's stories.

00:25:25.492 --> 00:25:30.985
For all of us, for all of us. So what is the significance of the title?

00:25:32.563 --> 00:25:35.448
So like many books, probably most, I would say,

00:25:36.293 --> 00:25:41.215
it named itself far, long, far into, somewhere around three years into the three

00:25:41.215 --> 00:25:45.767
and a half year total journey that we, there was a writing team of nine of us

00:25:46.190 --> 00:25:51.055
spread from Germany to the Pacific coast of the US who lived on Google Drive

00:25:51.055 --> 00:25:52.793
and Zoom for three and a half years.

00:25:53.718 --> 00:25:57.909
And it the story named itself because it speaks to,

00:25:58.727 --> 00:26:04.706
that individually these women who had to navigate and calibrate and shape shift

00:26:05.031 --> 00:26:10.300
and be four or five different versions of themselves all in a day usually all before nude,

00:26:11.201 --> 00:26:16.015
and they had to constantly all of the turbulence all of the challenges all of

00:26:16.015 --> 00:26:21.283
the obstacles all of the times they were told no or they told they didn't belong

00:26:21.539 --> 00:26:23.585
We're told they were lowering standards.

00:26:23.585 --> 00:26:28.778
We're told they couldn't do something for no other reason than because they were a woman.

00:26:29.213 --> 00:26:35.325
All of that turbulence, as we call it, ultimately it generated growth for each

00:26:35.325 --> 00:26:36.779
of these women individually.

00:26:37.336 --> 00:26:43.315
And they had to constantly work at defining and redefining and figuring out

00:26:43.315 --> 00:26:47.181
who they were as they navigated, not just in the military.

00:26:47.686 --> 00:26:51.185
There are women in the book who actually didn't graduate from the Air Force Academy.

00:26:51.853 --> 00:26:56.265
It's the totality of these women's lives Whether they didn't graduate They served

00:26:56.265 --> 00:27:00.043
five years They served 35 years It's the whole,

00:27:00.808 --> 00:27:06.175
human experience That we all go through And the growth that each of them had

00:27:06.175 --> 00:27:09.776
experienced The other aspect to the title is.

00:27:11.156 --> 00:27:16.834
It kind of dawned on us that what we're also talking about is this group of

00:27:16.834 --> 00:27:22.174
women over time, over 50 years, who just kept showing up, showing up to the

00:27:22.174 --> 00:27:24.594
Air Force Academy, showing up in their jobs,

00:27:25.334 --> 00:27:33.092
doing them excellently, and just determined persistently with great resilience to...

00:27:33.945 --> 00:27:39.457
Achieve and lead and make a difference in other people's lives and serve their

00:27:39.457 --> 00:27:44.210
oath to the constitution even long after they left uniform,

00:27:44.955 --> 00:27:50.406
and all of that by just showing up and that presence caused the institution

00:27:50.591 --> 00:27:55.601
the same things happened to the institution of the air force academy and the air force

00:27:56.007 --> 00:28:00.058
it caused the institution to have to look introspectively

00:28:00.499 --> 00:28:05.724
and to make decisions how it was going to change and grow and make itself better,

00:28:06.315 --> 00:28:10.361
so that our country could have the most combat-capable force that it could.

00:28:10.715 --> 00:28:15.528
So it speaks to both of those aspects, the individuals and the turbulence that caused growth,

00:28:16.178 --> 00:28:21.217
as individuals and as humans, and to the institution and how it had to change

00:28:21.217 --> 00:28:24.984
and adapt and grow as well because of the turbulence that we women,

00:28:25.286 --> 00:28:30.011
unwittingly perhaps, but nonetheless that we brought to the institutions.

00:28:30.717 --> 00:28:33.825
Yeah. And I appreciate that answer.

00:28:34.163 --> 00:28:38.133
One thing you said in the answer is something that I stress to people a lot

00:28:38.472 --> 00:28:44.257
is that, you know, whether you serve in the military, you serve in law enforcement,

00:28:44.257 --> 00:28:48.146
you elected to something, most of the time you have to swear an oath to the Constitution.

00:28:48.811 --> 00:28:52.377
And I remind people that just because

00:28:52.377 --> 00:28:56.687
you're no longer in that particular position, you did take that oath.

00:28:57.627 --> 00:29:03.807
So you still have an obligation even afterwards. So to hear that a lot of people,

00:29:04.587 --> 00:29:09.290
that you interview still hold that oath important, I think that's an important thing to highlight.

00:29:09.847 --> 00:29:13.947
That's absolutely inviolable. Yes, ma'am. So what was your biggest challenge

00:29:13.947 --> 00:29:17.847
in securing the interviews for the book? Was it getting the women to talk about

00:29:17.847 --> 00:29:22.752
the experiences or was it limiting the amount of interviews that conduct in place in that?

00:29:23.705 --> 00:29:28.987
Well, we put out a call for submissions, and so the majority of the submissions were written.

00:29:29.856 --> 00:29:32.834
We actually didn't have much of a challenge getting submissions.

00:29:33.593 --> 00:29:38.972
As we say in the introduction to the book, nobody had ever asked this group

00:29:38.972 --> 00:29:42.451
of women to talk about, to tell their stories. And we asked,

00:29:43.107 --> 00:29:44.762
and boy, did they respond.

00:29:45.342 --> 00:29:47.821
And so we had—we had—.

00:29:49.788 --> 00:29:55.508
Somewhere in the neighborhood of close to 200 submissions total between written

00:29:55.508 --> 00:30:01.078
and oral interviews that totaled up to this 560,000 words.

00:30:01.078 --> 00:30:08.260
And out of that, we went then and selected excerpts that,

00:30:09.148 --> 00:30:15.878
as we crafted the single narrative arc, the single story that told in a collective

00:30:15.878 --> 00:30:20.607
we voice where we speak, the story's told,

00:30:21.384 --> 00:30:25.825
and written about we, but in a single story that then,

00:30:27.123 --> 00:30:28.573
these women's voices then.

00:30:30.002 --> 00:30:31.138
Are like the punches.

00:30:31.138 --> 00:30:35.358
That make the points, that bring out the highlights, that are the themes,

00:30:35.358 --> 00:30:43.318
that curate and really shout the themes to the rafters of their lives and all

00:30:43.318 --> 00:30:45.480
of us then collectively as a group.

00:30:46.208 --> 00:30:50.498
So that there wasn't much of a challenge getting responses the challenge was,

00:30:51.009 --> 00:30:57.158
we were it was overwhelming the response and the the time it took to read and

00:30:57.158 --> 00:30:59.647
read and read and read and then,

00:31:00.366 --> 00:31:05.782
go find what it was what we were going to pull out and bring together,

00:31:06.847 --> 00:31:08.716
into this heroine's journey,

00:31:09.788 --> 00:31:14.488
of leaving our known world, entering the crucible, all of the challenges,

00:31:15.357 --> 00:31:21.348
in uniform, after uniform, whatever, and then the transformation as the final,

00:31:22.017 --> 00:31:25.790
section of the book is titled, The Becoming of What We All Become,

00:31:26.284 --> 00:31:29.868
whether it was from the first class 50 years ago or,

00:31:30.748 --> 00:31:34.308
our youngest contributor just graduated in the class of 2026,

00:31:34.308 --> 00:31:35.543
a little over two months ago.

00:31:36.741 --> 00:31:40.013
Yeah, that's cool. It's very cool.

00:31:40.651 --> 00:31:45.709
Dr. Catherine Landig said that, as a historian, I have long believed that the

00:31:45.709 --> 00:31:50.729
experiences of women serving in the military can reveal much about the United

00:31:50.729 --> 00:31:54.631
States at the time. Do you agree with that sentiment? Absolutely.

00:31:55.380 --> 00:32:02.309
Absolutely. Yes, she's a brilliant historian. We were very, very gifted to have

00:32:02.309 --> 00:32:08.189
her write the foreword to the book and bring her perspective to this as a historian

00:32:08.189 --> 00:32:09.840
and particularly one who focuses.

00:32:10.258 --> 00:32:15.681
She wrote the what's considered the book on the women air force service pilots from world war ii,

00:32:16.302 --> 00:32:21.749
and their their experience and this this is a continuation from you know that's

00:32:21.749 --> 00:32:23.355
another group of women that,

00:32:23.976 --> 00:32:28.669
very few people really know much of anything about just like we talked about

00:32:28.669 --> 00:32:31.778
hidden figures we talked you can talk about the women air force service pilots

00:32:32.103 --> 00:32:36.119
the suffragettes the mercury 13 the green belts.

00:32:37.199 --> 00:32:42.039
You know there's there's several of these groups through history whose and particularly

00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:49.865
groups of women whose stories have very little if at all come to literary or stage light and,

00:32:50.498 --> 00:32:57.098
this that's another really important factor behind why this we had to tell this story,

00:32:57.823 --> 00:33:03.192
because it's now part of it's part of our american record it's evidence as well,

00:33:03.668 --> 00:33:08.219
We don't have to speculate and have somebody's opinion about whether women did

00:33:08.219 --> 00:33:09.908
this or that or how well they did it.

00:33:10.610 --> 00:33:15.349
There's 50 years of evidence now collected into this single book and this single

00:33:15.349 --> 00:33:18.415
story. And that's really important for all of us.

00:33:19.554 --> 00:33:25.202
So in the book, you said most of us do not see barriers denying our goals.

00:33:25.979 --> 00:33:31.818
Most of us did not see barriers denying our goals, merely obstacles we tackled on our way to success.

00:33:32.485 --> 00:33:36.427
So my question is, which barrier challenged female cadets the most,

00:33:36.908 --> 00:33:40.217
the cultural misogyny or the beast itself?

00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:45.635
So by the BEAST, I'm assuming you're referring to, that's our slang word as

00:33:45.635 --> 00:33:49.583
cadets for basic cadet training, which is military basic training,

00:33:49.908 --> 00:33:52.799
just like anywhere else in any of the services.

00:33:54.161 --> 00:34:00.725
And so it's called basic cadet training. Like I said, the acronym reduces to

00:34:00.725 --> 00:34:02.415
our slang word. We call it BEAST.

00:34:02.706 --> 00:34:07.640
And it's a six-week basic training course that every cadet goes through.

00:34:07.878 --> 00:34:11.674
And women and men do all experience the exact same thing,

00:34:12.364 --> 00:34:15.575
to get all the same training run all the same assault forces crawl through the

00:34:15.575 --> 00:34:20.975
same mud and under the concertina wire etc etc etc run all the same miles get

00:34:20.975 --> 00:34:24.037
up at six o'clock in the morning all of that stuff.

00:34:25.298 --> 00:34:31.255
The harder i would submit that in in terms of the two options you gave me there

00:34:31.622 --> 00:34:35.766
the harder part was navigating and and surviving,

00:34:36.668 --> 00:34:41.995
the culture, particularly in the early decades, but it absolutely lingers on,

00:34:41.995 --> 00:34:47.765
which is mind-baffling to think that there's some 18-, 19-, 20-year-old guys,

00:34:48.065 --> 00:34:51.091
male cadets at the Academy, who still feel,

00:34:51.785 --> 00:34:58.765
from wherever it comes that they are able to walk up to a woman cadet and stick

00:34:58.765 --> 00:35:03.245
their finger in her face and tell her that she doesn't belong there and she

00:35:03.245 --> 00:35:06.045
belongs home in a kitchen making babies.

00:35:06.045 --> 00:35:08.341
All these things are still said.

00:35:09.066 --> 00:35:12.625
Now, there's a great story in the book from one of our contributors. Her name is Sheila.

00:35:12.874 --> 00:35:17.135
And she had that happen to her where a male cadet walked up to her and put his

00:35:17.135 --> 00:35:21.235
finger in her face and said, you belong home in a kitchen making babies.

00:35:21.235 --> 00:35:25.235
And she put her finger right back in his face and said, you better get used

00:35:25.235 --> 00:35:27.600
to working for women in the Air Force. Yeah.

00:35:29.718 --> 00:35:35.953
And uh you know we just but it was very difficult particularly women who had

00:35:36.203 --> 00:35:38.694
there was a whole spectrum of experiences some women,

00:35:39.315 --> 00:35:44.112
did not have the same none of us had the same experience as any single other

00:35:44.112 --> 00:35:47.228
woman of the 12 or 12 000 of us that have now attended,

00:35:48.168 --> 00:35:54.712
and those that had very rough experiences including women who were raped and

00:35:54.712 --> 00:35:59.526
and all of the other whether it's any form of Any form of ism,

00:35:59.701 --> 00:36:01.715
because all the isms are there,

00:36:02.545 --> 00:36:04.849
there are those that had it worse than others.

00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:08.506
And that's an objective fact.

00:36:09.474 --> 00:36:16.001
But all of us, I would say, collectively would say that navigating and surviving,

00:36:16.623 --> 00:36:20.982
and thriving for those that were able to thrive in that culture was far more

00:36:20.982 --> 00:36:25.604
difficult than Beast or any of the other physical or mental challenges.

00:36:25.906 --> 00:36:29.282
BEAST was a one-time, it's the very first thing you do right when you first

00:36:29.282 --> 00:36:31.508
in process, the very first summer there.

00:36:31.972 --> 00:36:36.117
And there's a multitude of those kind of challenges throughout the entirety of the four years.

00:36:36.962 --> 00:36:44.032
The survival training, the POW camp training, all of the different types of

00:36:44.032 --> 00:36:48.872
training that we go through, many of them can be very physically and mentally

00:36:48.872 --> 00:36:50.867
demanding, as they should be.

00:36:51.221 --> 00:36:55.656
We're training a future officer corps to lead our nation.

00:36:56.289 --> 00:37:03.148
So it should be very difficult. And everybody goes through it and performs it to the same standards.

00:37:04.674 --> 00:37:10.609
The emotional and mental aspects from the culture side of it was very difficult,

00:37:11.120 --> 00:37:17.844
and there are many women now through the journey of this book who we have heard

00:37:17.844 --> 00:37:22.841
back from and who are, for the first time, some of them were talking 40 years,

00:37:23.085 --> 00:37:25.505
for the first time are now healing from,

00:37:26.056 --> 00:37:29.072
the experiences that they had there 40 years ago.

00:37:29.860 --> 00:37:33.714
So based on the interviews conducted, would you assess that it was tougher on

00:37:33.714 --> 00:37:35.682
the early black female cadets?

00:37:37.090 --> 00:37:42.713
Eric, I'll tell you just honestly, I really hesitate to speak for our black

00:37:42.713 --> 00:37:45.467
women from any of the eras. I'm a white woman.

00:37:46.106 --> 00:37:51.893
There's no way that I can fully appreciate. I absolutely can speak the totality

00:37:51.893 --> 00:37:53.159
of the women's experience.

00:37:53.717 --> 00:38:00.103
There is no doubt from the stories we read that came in from the many black

00:38:00.103 --> 00:38:01.477
women that are in the book.

00:38:02.127 --> 00:38:08.363
There is no doubt that they i can't say every single one of them but but it

00:38:08.363 --> 00:38:12.513
would not surprise me if every single one of them had a much tougher time than

00:38:12.513 --> 00:38:14.832
their white women counterparts,

00:38:15.684 --> 00:38:23.053
and the earliest classes perhaps had it in terms of just the cultural realities from,

00:38:24.149 --> 00:38:28.963
the late 70s, early 80s into the 90s compared to today.

00:38:29.294 --> 00:38:34.286
I like to think it's better today. I can't give you an objective factual reading on that.

00:38:34.751 --> 00:38:38.343
I haven't done some sort of quantitative survey or something.

00:38:38.343 --> 00:38:42.059
I'm sure that data, those kind of surveys are out there and are done.

00:38:42.414 --> 00:38:46.877
They used to be done regularly, all the climate assessment surveys.

00:38:47.121 --> 00:38:51.753
They have not been being done for about the last two years, which doesn't really

00:38:51.753 --> 00:38:55.233
surprise any of us. But there is no doubt that.

00:38:57.914 --> 00:39:05.663
My Black women sisters had experiences that I could not possibly have a full

00:39:05.663 --> 00:39:10.533
appreciation and understanding for. And reading many of them that came in absolutely

00:39:10.533 --> 00:39:12.605
laid me out on the floor and had me sobbing.

00:39:13.723 --> 00:39:20.803
They just did. It probably was tougher for my Black women sisters in those early classes.

00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:24.712
But I wouldn't, I can't categorically state that. Yeah.

00:39:25.718 --> 00:39:30.106
So how did the Gulf War change the perception of women in the Air Force?

00:39:31.407 --> 00:39:35.850
The Gulf War, and by that, we're talking about the first Gulf War in 1990,

00:39:36.675 --> 00:39:39.715
91, 92, I'm assuming you're speaking to. That changed.

00:39:40.335 --> 00:39:41.789
That was a pretty big game changer.

00:39:42.808 --> 00:39:49.327
The Gulf War was the impetus for the end of what was known as the combat exclusion law.

00:39:50.272 --> 00:39:58.025
We, America, went to war and everybody deployed, whoever you were and whatever unit you were in.

00:39:58.025 --> 00:40:04.355
And prior to that, and during the Gulf War, women were not allowed to fly combat

00:40:04.355 --> 00:40:11.410
aircraft, nor could they fly non-combat aircraft in combat zones, combat environments.

00:40:12.080 --> 00:40:18.701
And all of that evaporated in the Gulf War because there was no front lines in a rear echelon.

00:40:19.084 --> 00:40:22.943
For anybody that's old enough to remember that, Scud missiles were flying everywhere.

00:40:24.606 --> 00:40:30.915
And on the ground, you know, under General Schwarzkopf, the ground force was

00:40:30.915 --> 00:40:37.197
moving so fast that his words were, logistics is just going to have to keep up.

00:40:37.863 --> 00:40:42.093
And the historians among us will remember what was known as the big left hook,

00:40:42.465 --> 00:40:44.938
the big swing through the sunny desert.

00:40:45.617 --> 00:40:54.345
And there was so much happening so fast that, frankly, as a young captain at

00:40:54.345 --> 00:40:59.615
that time, the generals that were leading combat operations were,

00:41:00.804 --> 00:41:05.796
Just stop, I would say, stop caring about what the law said.

00:41:05.796 --> 00:41:10.081
They had a mission to get done, and nobody was going to stop to go,

00:41:10.649 --> 00:41:14.786
we need C-130s to land on highways out in the middle of the Saudi desert to

00:41:14.786 --> 00:41:17.807
make sure that Schwarzkopf's troops are getting resupplied.

00:41:19.392 --> 00:41:23.066
There was no time, and nobody wanted to even consider stopping to go,

00:41:23.066 --> 00:41:25.232
okay, do we have women on those C-130s?

00:41:25.499 --> 00:41:28.913
Wait a minute, wait a minute. That airplane can go fly, but that one cannot,

00:41:29.163 --> 00:41:34.696
unless we pull that woman pilot off and put another, that couldn't happen in

00:41:34.696 --> 00:41:38.716
the fog of war and the furious pace that all of what was happening.

00:41:39.362 --> 00:41:45.523
So I would say that our experience was, and if you were an air refueling tanker,

00:41:45.835 --> 00:41:48.418
pilot, or crew, it was the same thing.

00:41:48.715 --> 00:41:52.495
You just went where you needed to go. If you were flying one of the airborne.

00:41:53.339 --> 00:41:58.890
Command and control aircraft that was working the airspace and keeping planes de-conflicted.

00:41:59.336 --> 00:42:04.074
You just went where, a plane went where it needed to go to perform the mission,

00:42:04.074 --> 00:42:10.046
and nobody cared who was on it in terms of male or female or anything else.

00:42:10.657 --> 00:42:16.506
And that, so we all came home from that war with having flown in combat.

00:42:17.272 --> 00:42:25.614
And that was, that then began the major effort to eliminate the combat exclusion law, which did change.

00:42:25.614 --> 00:42:31.534
And you'll appreciate this as a former congressman. The 1992 National Defense

00:42:31.534 --> 00:42:37.576
Authorization Act removed the combat exclusion for women flying in combat aircraft

00:42:37.680 --> 00:42:39.491
and serving on combatant ships.

00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:47.174
And in April 28th of 1993, Les Haspin, the Secretary of Defense,

00:42:47.634 --> 00:42:49.773
removed the policy that prohibited us.

00:42:50.011 --> 00:42:55.204
And thus, the doors were flung open and women poured through those doors to

00:42:55.204 --> 00:43:00.886
do, you know, I was a high performance jet instructor pilot and there were many others like me.

00:43:01.310 --> 00:43:04.357
And there we were, the airplane doesn't care.

00:43:04.607 --> 00:43:08.594
The airplane doesn't know, or any weapons system, whether it's an airplane or

00:43:08.594 --> 00:43:16.491
a ship or a tank or anything else, doesn't know and care what gender is at the controls.

00:43:16.694 --> 00:43:19.922
The machine responds to control inputs, period.

00:43:20.578 --> 00:43:25.994
And anything else that would be considered regarding women's physical abilities

00:43:25.994 --> 00:43:28.468
to handle the demand or their ability to think.

00:43:29.428 --> 00:43:35.354
With the speed and the agility actually all the studies show that and these

00:43:35.354 --> 00:43:38.890
are factual things now which more and more of these continue to come out,

00:43:39.464 --> 00:43:43.744
so for example after women all the women that have now gone through ranger school

00:43:43.744 --> 00:43:47.307
for the army and the studies that have been done show,

00:43:47.894 --> 00:43:52.712
that physiologically and mentally women possess their bodies,

00:43:53.540 --> 00:43:58.200
sustain that kind of stress physiologically speaking,

00:43:58.885 --> 00:44:05.125
better than a male body does which doesn't mean that women are better or men are better whatever,

00:44:05.572 --> 00:44:10.474
these are the kinds of realities that the facts speak to and all any of us care

00:44:10.474 --> 00:44:13.943
about and particularly when you're in command as i was,

00:44:14.453 --> 00:44:20.114
you just want the most capable force and know that your people are trained know

00:44:20.114 --> 00:44:25.344
what they're doing and are going to be there for the person on their left and

00:44:25.344 --> 00:44:26.979
their right, in front of them, behind them,

00:44:27.421 --> 00:44:30.733
and don't care about anything else other than that. Yeah.

00:44:32.343 --> 00:44:38.224
Excuse me. You wrote this statement in the book, to survive until we belonged,

00:44:38.224 --> 00:44:42.361
our rations included vigilance, humor, and tenacity.

00:44:42.931 --> 00:44:48.875
We exposed the unwritten rules, morphed to fit in, but never forget our differences.

00:44:49.270 --> 00:44:55.354
Speak up but don't be too assertive defer to protect competitive egos laugh

00:44:55.354 --> 00:44:57.908
but not too loud and never off color,

00:44:58.483 --> 00:45:03.424
we adjusted our voices our words and our posture some of us hardened our tone

00:45:03.424 --> 00:45:09.114
to be heard others kept softness as quiet rebellion we recorded our memories

00:45:09.114 --> 00:45:12.983
not as victims or to accuse but to bear witness,

00:45:14.215 --> 00:45:20.169
As a civilian, does that mindset give you a sense of empathy to people in American

00:45:20.169 --> 00:45:23.658
society that may feel the same way? Absolutely.

00:45:24.181 --> 00:45:25.313
Absolutely.

00:45:26.005 --> 00:45:30.919
Absolutely. And which is one of the, I think, one of the most powerful things.

00:45:30.919 --> 00:45:35.759
You know, we started this and the core connection point for this extraordinary

00:45:35.759 --> 00:45:37.490
group of women is the Air Force Academy.

00:45:37.839 --> 00:45:41.304
But what emerged out of this was this incredible human story.

00:45:41.717 --> 00:45:47.649
It's for anyone, anywhere, who, again, who has found themselves in a space or

00:45:47.649 --> 00:45:53.182
a place or a system that never imagined them, wasn't designed for them,

00:45:53.593 --> 00:45:55.405
doesn't think they belong there.

00:45:57.703 --> 00:46:03.504
And you have to, as you just listed off, all the ways we calibrate and adjust,

00:46:04.062 --> 00:46:09.529
and tailor ourselves and present a different aspect or different part of ourselves

00:46:09.529 --> 00:46:14.772
that we think will be the acceptable part for that circumstance or that audience.

00:46:15.436 --> 00:46:20.689
That was very much has been for this group of women and I would submit for lots

00:46:20.689 --> 00:46:28.977
of people in a number of different sub-demographic groups or whatever from the collective,

00:46:29.586 --> 00:46:36.539
we of this group of women absolutely can see themselves in that reality every

00:46:36.539 --> 00:46:40.631
day and for many groups for decades,

00:46:41.253 --> 00:46:43.099
in some cases, hundreds of years.

00:46:45.016 --> 00:46:49.239
There's an old aviation saying that goes, the three most useless things in the

00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:54.851
world are altitude above you, runway below you, and time that has passed.

00:46:55.344 --> 00:46:58.036
How can that saying be applied in everyday life?

00:46:58.816 --> 00:47:05.990
Oh, so this very much is how, for me personally, how I think and operate.

00:47:06.280 --> 00:47:14.698
Not because I'm a pilot, but I have learned, I have the blessing of a few decades of life.

00:47:15.981 --> 00:47:22.314
And with that comes the learning through all the good, the bad, and the ugly,

00:47:23.078 --> 00:47:29.302
of arriving at a place, a circumstance in my life where there is no other way

00:47:29.604 --> 00:47:34.463
for me to be than to be a whole, fully integrated person,

00:47:34.979 --> 00:47:36.489
and in my case, as a woman.

00:47:37.294 --> 00:47:44.757
And to do that and to live in the moment of every day for today and not attempt

00:47:44.757 --> 00:47:47.538
to, as someone who is very left-brained,

00:47:48.119 --> 00:47:57.002
but not attempt to project and project manage and analyze and overthink,

00:47:57.863 --> 00:48:03.505
all the things that I have no idea may or may not happen.

00:48:04.145 --> 00:48:07.568
And all with those things, the things I have no control over.

00:48:07.946 --> 00:48:13.298
So for me, and those may recognize, that's a real, I'm a huge serenity prayer type of a person.

00:48:13.936 --> 00:48:20.287
And that's to me what you're speaking of is I am constantly looking and I would submit.

00:48:22.137 --> 00:48:26.737
The journey of leading this incredible team of women who wrote this book,

00:48:27.077 --> 00:48:32.159
The Nine of Us, and the 108 voices that are in it, really brought that,

00:48:32.524 --> 00:48:35.322
for me, into really stark relief.

00:48:35.688 --> 00:48:40.467
That i learned from these women and their experiences that i wasn't alone and

00:48:40.467 --> 00:48:43.316
that there this is something that so many,

00:48:44.053 --> 00:48:51.367
women have had to learn through their experiences and i learned from that and took from them,

00:48:51.959 --> 00:48:57.537
and integrated it more fully into my own life over the course of these three

00:48:57.537 --> 00:48:59.889
and a half years and and that,

00:49:00.625 --> 00:49:05.883
i am i do not look back at the runway behind me i did the best i could,

00:49:06.498 --> 00:49:12.067
and i've arrived at this exquisite moment in time that everything that has gone

00:49:12.067 --> 00:49:16.967
before me the runway behind me the altitude below me and the time has prepared

00:49:16.967 --> 00:49:20.691
me for this moment in my life,

00:49:21.359 --> 00:49:25.010
That i'm sitting here today with you having this phenomenal conversation,

00:49:25.706 --> 00:49:30.637
And that's that is not lost on me at all and i'm not worried about thinking

00:49:30.637 --> 00:49:31.645
i'm not even thinking about,

00:49:32.332 --> 00:49:37.647
What comes next later today or which doesn't mean I don't plan for The future

00:49:37.647 --> 00:49:40.744
means it doesn't mean I just live on a whim I.

00:49:41.680 --> 00:49:47.270
But it does mean that when I'm here in this moment with you, that I am fully here.

00:49:47.820 --> 00:49:51.462
And I know that the reason I'm here is because of the runway behind me,

00:49:51.462 --> 00:49:52.970
the altitude below me, and the time.

00:49:53.445 --> 00:49:59.702
And I chuckled as you read that because, yes, that is absolutely a very pilot thing that we say.

00:50:00.167 --> 00:50:04.541
And usually we say it in the context of, you know,

00:50:05.110 --> 00:50:08.922
thinking out, getting out ahead of the aircraft so you don't go,

00:50:09.382 --> 00:50:16.612
oh crap i wish i had done whatever so i not looking at oops what i should have

00:50:16.612 --> 00:50:18.287
done what's behind me or below me,

00:50:19.025 --> 00:50:22.426
i now have taken that in my own life and looked at it from,

00:50:22.926 --> 00:50:26.513
all of that runway behind me and altitude below me and what has come before

00:50:26.803 --> 00:50:32.822
brings me to this moment and the ability and the blessing and the and the privilege

00:50:33.229 --> 00:50:37.396
of getting to talk about this extraordinary group of women and this story,

00:50:37.843 --> 00:50:40.092
that has already changing lives.

00:50:40.092 --> 00:50:44.452
It has changed mine, it is changing others, and it's going to continue to change

00:50:44.452 --> 00:50:46.582
lives as it continues to make its way.

00:50:46.582 --> 00:50:51.782
It's only been out into the world now for five weeks, and it is already changing

00:50:51.782 --> 00:50:55.189
lives. And we are so grateful, so grateful for that.

00:50:55.542 --> 00:50:59.544
Because what more could you ask for than to make a difference for people?

00:51:00.449 --> 00:51:04.713
So finish this sentence i have hope because.

00:51:06.762 --> 00:51:15.220
I have hope because i do do in the quiet moment of the day i do believe in the,

00:51:16.614 --> 00:51:23.935
the goodness the incredible goodness of people doesn't mean every person but i think,

00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:30.392
I think that particularly, these women are a microcosm,

00:51:32.033 --> 00:51:38.421
of all kinds of women everywhere, across any industry or domain you want to,

00:51:39.130 --> 00:51:40.877
list or talk about or think of.

00:51:41.922 --> 00:51:47.878
And there are legions of women and people like these women who,

00:51:48.892 --> 00:51:53.899
who in pursuit of their dream to be part of,

00:51:54.581 --> 00:51:58.695
they didn't start off this way thinking oh i'm going to be part of this incredible

00:51:58.695 --> 00:52:04.652
american story but now recognize and know that they are and there are so many,

00:52:05.835 --> 00:52:11.635
you are too your background that are part of this story and are and believe in in.

00:52:13.624 --> 00:52:22.215
The goodness ultimately at our core at our soul of people and that we we absolutely

00:52:22.215 --> 00:52:24.892
can make a difference we can,

00:52:25.932 --> 00:52:32.282
continue to move forward continue in the pursuit of in the case of our country

00:52:32.560 --> 00:52:37.392
a more perfect union and that that does that does give me hope,

00:52:38.280 --> 00:52:44.895
even even in the throughout the days when it's very difficult to have hope because

00:52:44.895 --> 00:52:51.777
there are continually there are moments that drop in on me that tell me that,

00:52:53.615 --> 00:53:00.977
everything that this country is and where it came from with all of.

00:53:03.383 --> 00:53:10.505
All of the horrible crap that is also part of our story our our nation's story,

00:53:11.316 --> 00:53:13.963
and the more of these stories that get told,

00:53:14.990 --> 00:53:20.115
and if i could be so bold for example just because i'm speaking with you on

00:53:20.115 --> 00:53:23.921
this particular show of yours one of the greatest books i've,

00:53:25.145 --> 00:53:28.977
profoundly changed my life was reading the 1619 project,

00:53:29.824 --> 00:53:36.073
i i was i was angry and i when i got while i was reading it and certainly when

00:53:36.073 --> 00:53:41.253
i got done with it and i was stunned and i was absolutely a changed person and

00:53:41.253 --> 00:53:43.202
it's things like that to have,

00:53:43.958 --> 00:53:49.334
that book drop into my life when it did before the writing of this one,

00:53:50.475 --> 00:53:58.064
changed me and it's another drop-in that gives me hope because without,

00:53:58.913 --> 00:54:02.463
that story and everything that

00:54:02.463 --> 00:54:06.862
has flowed from it and all the other ones like Cast that then followed.

00:54:08.645 --> 00:54:14.473
And Hidden Figures and Maureen Murdoch's Heroine's Journey their timing-wise

00:54:14.473 --> 00:54:19.092
are different, doesn't matter there's this constant pieces these constant books

00:54:19.452 --> 00:54:21.751
and stories and experiences,

00:54:22.233 --> 00:54:24.328
that drop in on me that tell me,

00:54:24.944 --> 00:54:26.847
and affirm for me,

00:54:27.753 --> 00:54:32.457
that that there there is a preponderance of souls,

00:54:33.150 --> 00:54:41.673
out there with whom i can connect and together we we will continue to be for

00:54:41.673 --> 00:54:45.096
each other and for our brothers and sisters,

00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:51.219
what we can all be and should all be for each other, everything else aside.

00:54:51.970 --> 00:54:57.747
Long answer to your question, but thanks for the opportunity to just free stream a little bit.

00:54:58.333 --> 00:55:04.772
Well, that's awesome. I like free thinkers and especially conscientious free thinkers.

00:55:05.252 --> 00:55:12.803
I think that says a lot about just imagining being a part of your unit and the

00:55:12.803 --> 00:55:16.013
trust that you garnered from your.

00:55:18.071 --> 00:55:24.163
Folks under your command. I think that last answer spoke a lot about that.

00:55:24.163 --> 00:55:25.866
That gives me an incredible visual.

00:55:27.070 --> 00:55:30.205
So you said the book just dropped five weeks ago. How can people get it?

00:55:30.930 --> 00:55:37.026
Oh, well, you can purchase the book from whatever your favorite bookseller is, retailer is.

00:55:37.026 --> 00:55:42.025
But I will tell you that if you go to our website, necessaryturbulence.com,

00:55:42.813 --> 00:55:46.826
and go to the book page there, you can purchase the book.

00:55:46.826 --> 00:55:52.516
There's a long list of retailers, including a list of minority and women-owned

00:55:52.516 --> 00:55:57.808
retailers that we would love for people to buy from and support,

00:55:58.301 --> 00:56:01.826
as well as you can go to your local independent bookstore and purchase from

00:56:01.826 --> 00:56:04.180
them. That would give us great joy as well.

00:56:05.237 --> 00:56:10.288
And if anybody, if your listeners out there can convince Mahogany Books to carry

00:56:10.288 --> 00:56:14.738
our book and be able to purchase it through Mahogany Books, I would be beyond

00:56:14.738 --> 00:56:17.758
joy. We've not yet been successful in doing that.

00:56:18.217 --> 00:56:25.193
And that saddens me because there are so many voices in the book of incredible

00:56:25.303 --> 00:56:28.091
Black women and their stories, and.

00:56:29.008 --> 00:56:35.109
Mahogany Books needs to sit up and pay attention and take note of their stories that are in this book.

00:56:35.405 --> 00:56:39.988
But on necessaryturbulence.com, you can also purchase it directly from our publisher

00:56:39.988 --> 00:56:46.118
and get a 15% discount, which then in turn supports our incredible publisher,

00:56:46.118 --> 00:56:49.712
which is Millspeak Books, which is a nonprofit.

00:56:49.979 --> 00:56:55.725
And directly, their mission, among others, is to publish the voices of veterans

00:56:55.951 --> 00:56:59.396
and veteran-adjacent stories in the books there.

00:57:00.040 --> 00:57:04.738
So there's a number of different ways you can. I do hope folks will take the

00:57:04.738 --> 00:57:11.878
time and go purchase from a minority or woman-owned bookstore or your local independent bookshop.

00:57:11.878 --> 00:57:18.792
If you're overseas with an FPO, an APO, or a DPO address, that information is also there.

00:57:19.147 --> 00:57:23.558
How best to get that if you live overseas? There are other links there for where

00:57:23.558 --> 00:57:25.844
it is sold in different countries.

00:57:26.355 --> 00:57:31.358
We did our best to make sure that no matter where you are, you can get this

00:57:31.358 --> 00:57:35.838
book and you can get it into your hands and into your life and the lives of

00:57:35.838 --> 00:57:37.608
those around you as well.

00:57:38.670 --> 00:57:42.107
All right. So if people want to reach out to you directly, how can they do that?

00:57:43.189 --> 00:57:49.658
Through that same website. There's a contact form there that you could send

00:57:49.658 --> 00:57:54.432
a little note. And it comes to me and you will absolutely hear back from me. I guarantee you.

00:57:55.529 --> 00:57:59.351
It's very important that you will hear back from, from me, from us.

00:58:00.188 --> 00:58:06.548
Well, Eileen Isola, Lieutenant Colonel Eileen Isola, I thank you again for your service,

00:58:07.064 --> 00:58:12.591
not just for the military aspect of it, but for you being a dedicated historian,

00:58:13.078 --> 00:58:15.789
and gathering these stories and putting it in a book form.

00:58:17.069 --> 00:58:24.410
I firmly believe that in order to move forward, we have to remember where we came from.

00:58:25.193 --> 00:58:31.381
Absolutely. And I think, you know, your book is a very foundational piece in that.

00:58:31.881 --> 00:58:37.349
And so not only was I honored to be able to read it, but to be able to talk

00:58:37.349 --> 00:58:42.007
to you directly about it and to have you as a guest on the show.

00:58:42.361 --> 00:58:48.709
So the rule is that once you've been on the show, that you have an open invitation to come back.

00:58:48.709 --> 00:58:52.680
So if you do a follow-up on the book or something else on your mind,

00:58:53.128 --> 00:58:56.689
feel free to reach out and we'll get you on. But again, Eileen,

00:58:57.469 --> 00:58:59.795
I enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much.

00:59:00.120 --> 00:59:04.449
I did too, Erik. Thank you. And I will absolutely come back once I finish and

00:59:04.449 --> 00:59:08.305
publish my memoir, which got set aside and backburnered in order to,

00:59:08.445 --> 00:59:11.660
because this story was so important. It was so important.

00:59:12.415 --> 00:59:15.889
So I will absolutely, and I would love to come back and I would love to continue

00:59:15.889 --> 00:59:18.255
this conversation and any other you'd like to have.

00:59:19.040 --> 00:59:23.503
And a joy. Well, thank you. And all right, guys, we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

00:59:43.769 --> 00:59:48.780
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Ryan Virden.

00:59:49.496 --> 00:59:53.549
Ryan Virden is an esteemed author, educator, cultural worker,

00:59:53.549 --> 00:59:59.029
leadership coach, and public speaker with over 15 years of experience working

00:59:59.029 --> 01:00:01.715
with individuals, teams, and organizations.

01:00:02.435 --> 01:00:06.440
Grounded in a background spanning research, classroom teaching,

01:00:06.847 --> 01:00:09.250
restorative justice, and executive leadership.

01:00:11.003 --> 01:00:16.119
Ryan's work emphasizes creating strong, authentic relationships that enable

01:00:16.119 --> 01:00:19.978
clients to build trust, clarity, and connection through their work.

01:00:20.542 --> 01:00:25.479
The sought-after speaker and writer Ryan Virden is the author of the newly released

01:00:25.479 --> 01:00:27.484
book Breaking the Privileged Frame,

01:00:27.897 --> 01:00:31.949
a compelling and essential read for anyone seeking to understand and address

01:00:31.949 --> 01:00:35.902
the complexities of race and privilege in today's world.

01:00:36.546 --> 01:00:41.519
His work offers readers a fresh perspective on those working on dismantling

01:00:41.519 --> 01:00:46.669
oppressive systems, one that calls for an honest exploration of identity,

01:00:47.116 --> 01:00:52.102
engagement in meaningful dialogue, and work towards greater justice and equity.

01:00:52.704 --> 01:00:57.339
By dissecting the historical roots of white supremacy and the language used

01:00:57.339 --> 01:01:03.139
to discuss race, breaking the privileged frame challenges conventional narratives

01:01:03.139 --> 01:01:07.165
through a thought-provoking exploration of how race operates.

01:01:07.803 --> 01:01:12.274
As the founder and executive director of Lear Culture Coaching,

01:01:12.756 --> 01:01:16.379
Ryan has partnered with dozens of organizations across the private,

01:01:16.379 --> 01:01:18.177
public, and nonprofit sectors,

01:01:18.706 --> 01:01:23.959
to strengthen leadership capacity, facilitate conflict resolution efforts,

01:01:23.959 --> 01:01:25.933
and build cultures of belonging.

01:01:26.450 --> 01:01:31.539
His approach combines data-informed assessment tools with reflective practice

01:01:31.539 --> 01:01:35.802
and systems designed to transform cultures from the inside out.

01:01:36.650 --> 01:01:41.977
Ryan's writing has appeared in The Good Men Project and Twin Cities Daily Planet,

01:01:42.616 --> 01:01:45.541
and his work has been featured by Minnesota Public Radio.

01:01:46.075 --> 01:01:49.770
He holds advanced degrees in both liberal studies and educational leadership

01:01:49.770 --> 01:01:52.728
and is working toward a third in human resource law.

01:01:53.500 --> 01:01:58.120
Additionally, Virden is an adjunct professor in the Justice and Peace Studies

01:01:58.120 --> 01:02:02.470
Department at the University of St. Thomas, working each semester to help young

01:02:02.470 --> 01:02:08.053
people understand the manifestations of violence and work for a more just and peaceful world.

01:02:08.821 --> 01:02:12.950
In his work, he continues to bridge scholarship and practice through his writing,

01:02:12.950 --> 01:02:14.256
coaching, and workshops.

01:02:14.766 --> 01:02:19.670
Originally from Northeast Minneapolis, Ryan found his voice via hip-hop and

01:02:19.670 --> 01:02:23.270
enjoys debating your top five dead or alive.

01:02:23.909 --> 01:02:29.227
He's also a fan of rom-com films, especially the cheesy ones from the 90s and the early 2000s.

01:02:29.888 --> 01:02:33.528
Outside of work, he is a proud husband and dad to two daughters,

01:02:34.039 --> 01:02:36.748
plus two canine companions.

01:02:37.079 --> 01:02:40.980
He currently lives in Atlanta, Georgia. Ladies and gentlemen,

01:02:41.397 --> 01:02:47.278
it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast, Ryan Virden.

01:02:58.641 --> 01:03:01.581
All right. Ryan Virden. How are you doing? So you're doing good.

01:03:02.168 --> 01:03:05.201
I'm doing well, Erik. Thank you. Yeah, I'm doing well. Well,

01:03:05.541 --> 01:03:10.056
I'm glad to have you on. You have written this book that is very, very interesting.

01:03:10.779 --> 01:03:17.030
And let's see. I'm breaking. I hope it's interesting. Breaking the Privilege Frame. Yeah.

01:03:17.632 --> 01:03:21.951
Yeah, that caught my attention. So I'm glad we're going to talk about a little

01:03:21.951 --> 01:03:27.201
bit. We're going to talk about kind of not so much word for word on the book,

01:03:27.201 --> 01:03:31.872
but but the theme and why you decided to do that.

01:03:32.979 --> 01:03:37.491
But what I like to do is I do a couple of icebreakers.

01:03:37.491 --> 01:03:43.551
But before I do my normal icebreakers, it says in your bio that you're this

01:03:43.551 --> 01:03:48.231
this hip hop aficionado and and all that stuff.

01:03:48.231 --> 01:03:52.620
And you like to debate people about the top five.

01:03:55.241 --> 01:03:58.081
Who's your Mount Rushmore rap and all that stuff? Yeah.

01:04:00.026 --> 01:04:04.711
So aficionado might be stretching it. I'm a hip-hop head, and I do like to debate

01:04:04.711 --> 01:04:07.649
the top five. I'll debate people's top fives for sure.

01:04:08.326 --> 01:04:12.811
All right, so let me ask you this question. Who do you – because I got into

01:04:12.811 --> 01:04:14.201
a debate with some friends.

01:04:14.981 --> 01:04:17.581
This was years ago, and we were

01:04:17.581 --> 01:04:23.652
like, saying east coast west coast um they made fun they made fun of me,

01:04:24.318 --> 01:04:28.251
about midwest because i'm originally from chicago it's like you know midwest

01:04:28.251 --> 01:04:33.381
rappers i said okay common yay e or yay or however you pronounce it now kanye west,

01:04:34.001 --> 01:04:39.474
i don't yeah i twist okay that's fine y'all y'all can y'all can act like y'all don't know but anyway.

01:04:41.563 --> 01:04:46.671
Who do you consider the best female lyricist of all time?

01:04:47.246 --> 01:04:50.939
Oh, wow. That is such a good... I was not expecting that question.

01:04:50.939 --> 01:04:54.171
The best female lyricist of all time.

01:04:54.851 --> 01:05:02.722
Honestly, like, so my personal... Like, I think she could go bar for bar with anybody is Foxy Brown.

01:05:03.427 --> 01:05:07.179
I think... Yeah, I think Foxy... I grew up in that era of...

01:05:07.559 --> 01:05:10.949
I would say, you know, I'm from Minneapolis. So when you said there's no Midwest

01:05:10.949 --> 01:05:12.059
rappers, I'm like, yeah, right.

01:05:12.059 --> 01:05:17.082
Like I grew up on Bone and Common and my mom Rushmore got Lupe in it.

01:05:17.505 --> 01:05:23.979
So, you know, Brother Ali from Minneapolis. But Foxy is right there for me.

01:05:23.979 --> 01:05:28.759
I think we're in an age of some really talented female MCs right now.

01:05:28.759 --> 01:05:32.351
Like I'm down in Atlanta, so I get a lot of Lotto.

01:05:32.855 --> 01:05:36.019
I get a lot of YK niece, like all that.

01:05:36.519 --> 01:05:40.949
I think where the female emcees have come with it and are finally starting to

01:05:40.949 --> 01:05:41.962
get their shine right now.

01:05:42.577 --> 01:05:48.342
Yeah, Lotto is coming up. Dolce is an up-and-coming one that a lot of people like.

01:05:48.940 --> 01:05:53.874
Dolce is cold, yeah. But the one I think of all time is Lauryn Hill.

01:05:54.113 --> 01:06:00.419
I think Lauryn is the queen when it comes to Ravelers. Because not only is she,

01:06:00.979 --> 01:06:05.519
profound in what she talks about, but her freestyle skills are ridiculous.

01:06:05.519 --> 01:06:08.575
Because I just saw someone on, I think, Instagram.

01:06:08.897 --> 01:06:10.509
They were at the Apollo, where she

01:06:10.509 --> 01:06:14.373
got booed, by the way, when she first auditioned on Showtime for Apollo.

01:06:15.339 --> 01:06:19.419
But she got out there with the Fugees, and Wyclef said, we need to have some

01:06:19.419 --> 01:06:22.423
freestyle going on. And then Lauren took over, and it was like.

01:06:23.998 --> 01:06:28.518
She's the queen to me, but you can't go wrong with Ms. Hill for sure.

01:06:28.518 --> 01:06:33.808
All right. Now that we got that out the way, the other icebreakers I do is the

01:06:33.808 --> 01:06:36.357
first one is I want you to respond to a quote.

01:06:37.133 --> 01:06:44.610
Okay. And the quote is, if you have to come help me, you are wasting your time.

01:06:45.086 --> 01:06:49.597
But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with me,

01:06:49.962 --> 01:06:51.269
then let's work together.

01:06:52.224 --> 01:06:55.644
The response of that? Yes, sir. Yeah, that's the only way forward.

01:06:56.578 --> 01:07:04.918
I think that we fundamentally are in a position since the Industrial Revolution

01:07:04.918 --> 01:07:08.476
where we're in this hyper-independent, hyper-individual mindset,

01:07:09.044 --> 01:07:11.197
and we don't understand how interconnected we are.

01:07:11.795 --> 01:07:16.268
And so I think, you know, it's a great quote to talk about, to segue into the

01:07:16.268 --> 01:07:22.080
book, because that's really the impetus for the book was realizing,

01:07:22.579 --> 01:07:24.618
hey, we're doing this racial justice thing wrong.

01:07:24.618 --> 01:07:27.219
By we, I mean, white folks, I'm a white guy.

01:07:27.724 --> 01:07:33.557
And so we keep trying to do things for people and not figuring out how we benefit

01:07:33.691 --> 01:07:38.928
and what we can do, how this struggle benefits us, heals us,

01:07:38.928 --> 01:07:40.968
and that we are in it side by side.

01:07:40.968 --> 01:07:44.915
Not leading anybody, not doing anything for anybody, but doing it with people.

01:07:45.362 --> 01:07:48.768
And I'm a restorative practitioner as well. And so that's the number one tenant

01:07:48.768 --> 01:07:50.789
is you don't do things to people. You do it with them.

01:07:51.431 --> 01:07:56.040
And so I really think that's the only way we figure this thing out. Okay.

01:07:57.098 --> 01:08:01.312
My next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions. Nah, I like it.

01:08:01.445 --> 01:08:04.516
So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

01:08:05.277 --> 01:08:07.298
Let's go 11. All right.

01:08:08.354 --> 01:08:12.928
Where do you go to check a fact that you see, hear, or read?

01:08:13.989 --> 01:08:19.550
Oh, man, I go lots of places. I go multiple places, so never just one place, but I will go.

01:08:19.939 --> 01:08:23.300
I got lots of books, so I'll go check a book, or I'll.

01:08:24.287 --> 01:08:32.665
Find in the archives of maybe the Times or some of the more established traditional

01:08:33.073 --> 01:08:35.505
presses, although I don't put a lot of stock in that.

01:08:35.958 --> 01:08:38.837
But then I'll also go find somewhere outside of Western media.

01:08:38.837 --> 01:08:43.977
So, like, I might go fact check something in Al Jazeera English or some other

01:08:43.977 --> 01:08:47.998
media outside of the Western framework.

01:08:48.684 --> 01:08:55.407
Okay. All right. So why did you decide to write this book and why did you decide

01:08:55.407 --> 01:08:57.361
to write it in a textbook format?

01:08:58.251 --> 01:09:05.151
Yeah. So the book comes out of my experience as a organizer and cultural worker in Minneapolis.

01:09:05.610 --> 01:09:09.678
I was an educator. So maybe that gets to the, to the formatting.

01:09:09.998 --> 01:09:13.798
I actually tried not to write it as much as a textbook as I think maybe it came

01:09:13.798 --> 01:09:16.618
out. I just seen it was on like an intellectual books list. I was like,

01:09:16.618 --> 01:09:21.001
man, maybe I, maybe I didn't get it enough out of the intellectual part.

01:09:21.524 --> 01:09:24.527
But I'm an educator, trained, and a historian.

01:09:25.183 --> 01:09:32.099
And so my work is in that space, right? As in like intellectual scholarship.

01:09:32.679 --> 01:09:37.956
And then my life was around cultural work and organizing and trying to make the world better.

01:09:38.612 --> 01:09:43.028
And in Minneapolis after the uprisings, it felt like a moment.

01:09:43.028 --> 01:09:46.468
Well, during the uprisings, after the murder of Floyd, it felt like a moment

01:09:46.468 --> 01:09:53.759
where we could really capitalize on the truth that was being laid bare and do something different.

01:09:54.402 --> 01:09:58.688
And for lots of different reasons, that didn't happen. And so this book is really

01:09:58.688 --> 01:10:00.978
my reflection on that and like, what happened?

01:10:03.505 --> 01:10:08.042
Why didn't this result in a fundamental shift in how we relate to each other?

01:10:08.484 --> 01:10:11.818
And I talk about it from my own point of view, right? Like, I don't talk about

01:10:11.818 --> 01:10:13.358
communities that I'm not a part of.

01:10:13.770 --> 01:10:17.378
And so I thought a lot about what were white people doing, particularly white

01:10:17.378 --> 01:10:18.455
men, how were we showing up?

01:10:19.090 --> 01:10:25.828
And I realized that back to that first quote, we're showing up as if we were

01:10:25.828 --> 01:10:28.256
doing people a favor. As if we were,

01:10:29.462 --> 01:10:34.668
saving them. You know, saviorism is a thing that's well documented in social

01:10:34.668 --> 01:10:37.913
justice spaces and in anti-racist spaces.

01:10:38.384 --> 01:10:42.240
And I realized that our anti-racism, the logic that we use to think about it,

01:10:42.745 --> 01:10:47.548
actually didn't create space for us to talk about how the struggle for racial

01:10:47.548 --> 01:10:48.823
justice heals white people.

01:10:49.478 --> 01:10:54.418
I had not had a space to talk about how I became a better person by being involved

01:10:54.418 --> 01:10:59.381
in anti-racism struggle, by thinking deeply about race and its impact on my life,

01:11:00.153 --> 01:11:04.378
not a better person as in I could show up for communities of color or for black

01:11:04.378 --> 01:11:09.188
people better which I think I do but just felt better felt more connected felt

01:11:09.188 --> 01:11:11.275
more you know closer to creation.

01:11:12.084 --> 01:11:17.478
Was just a better person and that I felt healthy and happy and so the book comes

01:11:17.478 --> 01:11:19.196
out of that it comes out of that realization,

01:11:19.967 --> 01:11:23.518
and and I try to make that case in the book I try to make the case that racial

01:11:23.518 --> 01:11:28.418
justice is good for all of us particularly white folks that we're actually the

01:11:28.418 --> 01:11:29.677
ones that need to heal from it.

01:11:30.188 --> 01:11:36.425
And I grounded in, you know, Baldwin said, as long as you think you're white, there's no hope for you.

01:11:36.773 --> 01:11:41.608
You got Richard Wright when asked, you know, well, he's in, is it a Vogue,

01:11:41.608 --> 01:11:47.078
Paris or somewhere in Europe? And they asked him what it was to talk about the

01:11:47.078 --> 01:11:49.798
Negro problem in America. And his response is, there's no Negro problem.

01:11:49.798 --> 01:11:50.652
There's a white problem.

01:11:51.108 --> 01:11:54.848
And El-Haj, Malik, El-Shabazz, Malcolm X, you know, says that,

01:11:54.848 --> 01:11:59.300
tells the white lady that comes up and it says, you know, minister, how can I help?

01:11:59.875 --> 01:12:04.978
Early in his career, he says, you can't. And then he revisits that interaction

01:12:04.978 --> 01:12:08.328
and Alex Haley writes about it in the autobiography.

01:12:08.328 --> 01:12:11.378
And he says, I would tell her to go work with her people at the source.

01:12:11.378 --> 01:12:16.888
You know, Toni Morrison said that like, white racism is about white people being

01:12:16.888 --> 01:12:22.288
broken, not anybody else. And so I tried to take that seriously and get my people

01:12:22.288 --> 01:12:24.229
to take it seriously. Yeah.

01:12:25.090 --> 01:12:31.783
What is white privilege and why do you think it is hard for people to believe that it exists?

01:12:32.819 --> 01:12:36.389
So this might be this might be one of the more controversial things in the book.

01:12:36.882 --> 01:12:41.706
White privilege, as it's used commonly, as it's understood, is the advantages

01:12:41.817 --> 01:12:45.421
of being perceived as white and moving in the world as white.

01:12:46.478 --> 01:12:50.992
And it definitely has advantages. I argue in the book that being white is actually

01:12:50.992 --> 01:12:57.792
not a privilege, that being included in the category of white required a division from humanity.

01:12:57.792 --> 01:13:01.749
It required a division from creation. It required hatred.

01:13:02.109 --> 01:13:06.032
It required accepting genocide, accepting the logics of.

01:13:08.082 --> 01:13:11.152
The Atlantic slave trade, right? The genocide of Native people,

01:13:11.152 --> 01:13:16.107
the enslavement of African people, the taking over of land and colonialism.

01:13:16.563 --> 01:13:19.092
And so I don't think that that's I don't think that that's a privilege.

01:13:19.092 --> 01:13:25.262
I think the system that was propped up that benefited those folks legally considered

01:13:25.262 --> 01:13:29.922
white, which is important because legally you got rights from it.

01:13:29.922 --> 01:13:33.562
Right. So like you could you could own land. You could own a home.

01:13:33.562 --> 01:13:36.879
You can get you could testify in court. You could carry a gun.

01:13:37.413 --> 01:13:40.992
There were real advantages in our system to being to being considered white

01:13:40.992 --> 01:13:43.632
and moving in the world that's white and being labeled white so i don't want

01:13:43.632 --> 01:13:47.572
to i never want to have anybody walk away from a conversation with me saying

01:13:47.572 --> 01:13:51.668
like oh this dude thinks white thinks being white doesn't matter it definitely does,

01:13:52.214 --> 01:13:56.182
what i'm saying is that we can't hold on to it like it's the thing that we should

01:13:56.182 --> 01:13:58.262
all be that we should live life as white people,

01:13:58.922 --> 01:14:02.043
live life or that we should view the world as through the lens of whiteness,

01:14:02.560 --> 01:14:06.482
because i think that that's how we end up i mean look at what's happening right now.

01:14:06.482 --> 01:14:10.202
We got wildfires all over. Europe is burning up.

01:14:10.762 --> 01:14:14.872
We're out of water. My daughter lives in the Southwest in Arizona,

01:14:14.872 --> 01:14:16.829
and they ain't got no water.

01:14:17.659 --> 01:14:22.992
This is the result of what accepting whiteness does, is it just destroys and

01:14:22.992 --> 01:14:28.822
consumes itself. And so I think white privilege is the advantages that are offered

01:14:28.822 --> 01:14:31.044
people who are white within white supremacy.

01:14:31.468 --> 01:14:35.312
And I would argue that it is indeed not a privilege, but rather something that's

01:14:35.312 --> 01:14:37.165
going to destroy us. Yeah.

01:14:38.010 --> 01:14:44.667
As a white person who has benefited from white privilege, why are you working so hard to eliminate?

01:14:45.371 --> 01:14:49.200
Yeah. And I want to be clear. I definitely have. Right. Like I tell this story

01:14:49.200 --> 01:14:50.138
off. I tell it in the book.

01:14:50.584 --> 01:14:54.530
The only reason I was even able to go to college because my my pops could cosign

01:14:54.530 --> 01:14:58.891
on my student loans because he owned a home and lots of my friends didn't have that opportunity.

01:14:59.384 --> 01:15:02.423
So, again, I'm not saying that being white doesn't have its advantages,

01:15:02.864 --> 01:15:09.380
but I'm working so hard to end it for the reasons I just talked about,

01:15:09.380 --> 01:15:11.320
because it's going to destroy us.

01:15:11.849 --> 01:15:15.610
It's cool to be, you know, you could be the most advantaged person in...

01:15:16.274 --> 01:15:19.237
A completely dystopian future. What good does that do?

01:15:19.237 --> 01:15:22.717
Like the things that make us happy, our community, the things that make us happy

01:15:22.717 --> 01:15:28.237
are, you know, not having to worry about our health, not having to worry about if we get to go home,

01:15:28.857 --> 01:15:33.247
and being with people, having love in your home, being able to laugh,

01:15:33.247 --> 01:15:34.337
being able to create art.

01:15:34.657 --> 01:15:39.657
We started this by talking about hip hop, right? Like hip hop comes from the Bronx.

01:15:39.977 --> 01:15:45.497
And at a time when the Cross Bronx Expressway has dispossessed a bunch of people.

01:15:45.497 --> 01:15:47.877
We see the housing boom and white flight is happening.

01:15:48.271 --> 01:15:53.426
And what comes out of community? The most powerful cultural force in modern history, hip hop.

01:15:53.955 --> 01:15:56.557
You know, that's the things that make us happy is being in community,

01:15:56.557 --> 01:16:00.157
creating cultural practices. And whiteness keeps us from that.

01:16:00.529 --> 01:16:06.577
And so, yeah, you can give me all the material advantages, but my soul is still

01:16:06.577 --> 01:16:09.689
going to be starving for something else. And that's what I'm most interested in.

01:16:10.195 --> 01:16:14.347
Not to say that those material things are really, really, really important, right?

01:16:14.347 --> 01:16:18.937
Like, I think everybody should have those, which is also why I advocate for

01:16:19.277 --> 01:16:24.277
as much anti-capitalist policies as I can because I don't think we should make

01:16:24.277 --> 01:16:27.817
money off of health, housing, private prisons, things like that.

01:16:27.817 --> 01:16:30.280
Like, not everything is a commodity. Yeah.

01:16:30.883 --> 01:16:36.728
So how much did hip-hop rap culture influence your actions and thoughts as an activist?

01:16:37.717 --> 01:16:42.327
You know, the older I get and the more I think about it, the more I realize

01:16:42.327 --> 01:16:45.757
that it did, right? Like hip-hop is about being in community.

01:16:46.163 --> 01:16:50.424
Hip-hop is about looking out for each other. Hip-hop is about truth-telling.

01:16:50.836 --> 01:16:54.797
You get the ugly part of the world. You get the beautiful part.

01:16:56.033 --> 01:16:59.827
You get all that. It's about being authentically yourself. At least that's the

01:16:59.827 --> 01:17:00.916
hip-hop that I grew up in.

01:17:01.177 --> 01:17:06.167
You know, and I came up at an age where, you know, post Telecommunications Act

01:17:06.167 --> 01:17:11.137
of 94, when they deregulate markets and then you get the sort of commodification

01:17:11.137 --> 01:17:13.355
of rap music versus hip hop culture.

01:17:14.289 --> 01:17:16.957
And so, you know, you've got to you've got to you've got to weed through some

01:17:16.957 --> 01:17:19.793
of that increasingly now with the more popular that it gets.

01:17:20.216 --> 01:17:24.391
But at its core, hip hop is about community. Hip hop is about taking care of each other.

01:17:24.779 --> 01:17:28.997
Hip hop is about standing up against oppression and and people that are trying

01:17:28.997 --> 01:17:31.209
to exploit and get over on people.

01:17:31.708 --> 01:17:35.177
And that's fundamentally the foundation of how I try to live my life.

01:17:35.177 --> 01:17:37.582
So I would say it's incredibly important.

01:17:38.347 --> 01:17:43.875
How is the whitewashing of American history detrimental to white Americans?

01:17:44.413 --> 01:17:48.557
Man, such a great question. This is one of my one of my things that I try to

01:17:48.557 --> 01:17:50.090
talk about as often as possible.

01:17:50.642 --> 01:17:53.497
And you can well, you can't you can see because we're on the camera.

01:17:53.497 --> 01:17:56.630
But I got John Brown over my corner over my shoulder.

01:17:57.010 --> 01:18:01.247
We don't we don't talk about the white folks that said, no, this ain't this ain't it.

01:18:01.420 --> 01:18:06.409
And stood up against the advancement of white supremacy.

01:18:06.722 --> 01:18:09.617
I don't want to suggest that that was everybody or that, you know what I mean?

01:18:09.617 --> 01:18:14.517
It was like a razor thin, you know, we just barely squeaked out and then white

01:18:14.517 --> 01:18:15.787
supremacy became entrenched.

01:18:16.194 --> 01:18:18.219
But it's not, it wasn't everybody.

01:18:18.805 --> 01:18:22.077
And why that's important, why it's important to talk about the John Browns,

01:18:22.077 --> 01:18:26.597
the Ann Bradens, the Thaddeus Stevens, these folks, the Heather Heyers.

01:18:26.597 --> 01:18:27.997
I'm from Minneapolis, right?

01:18:28.919 --> 01:18:34.281
The Alex Preddies is because it's, it makes it, it gives white people,

01:18:34.601 --> 01:18:36.138
particularly the young white people.

01:18:36.864 --> 01:18:42.157
A different model, a different choice. For so, so many white folks,

01:18:42.157 --> 01:18:44.698
it's just, this is how it is, right? This is what we do.

01:18:45.081 --> 01:18:47.165
And we never ask who the we are or,

01:18:48.066 --> 01:18:51.001
Is there a different version of we? I'm Irish.

01:18:51.421 --> 01:18:56.161
And so I grew up hearing about how the British colonized Ireland,

01:18:56.161 --> 01:18:59.767
how they pushed my people down to the rocks and how we had to leave and how,

01:19:00.289 --> 01:19:03.881
you know, they forced us to eat potatoes because we were, you know,

01:19:04.201 --> 01:19:06.252
cattle farming for British folks.

01:19:06.827 --> 01:19:11.121
And so I always had that, this idea that there was something that wasn't that

01:19:11.121 --> 01:19:15.025
about my story that wasn't reflected in the mainstream American story.

01:19:16.111 --> 01:19:21.185
And I think when we talk about, honestly, a history of white folks resisting,

01:19:21.667 --> 01:19:26.441
we will see more white folks start to resist and find courage in that line.

01:19:26.821 --> 01:19:33.141
And again, I feel like they have some sort of rooted purpose in this,

01:19:33.141 --> 01:19:37.211
that they're not just making this up as they go, but that there's ancestors

01:19:37.211 --> 01:19:41.615
that are behind them that they can draw strength from. Okay.

01:19:42.326 --> 01:19:48.096
Now, a previous guest of mine on this podcast has what she calls her blonde hair, blue eyed story.

01:19:48.728 --> 01:19:53.991
So she's an African American woman and at a former job, she wanted to implement

01:19:53.991 --> 01:19:55.612
a program geared toward children.

01:19:57.076 --> 01:20:01.146
Her white bosses rejected the idea. And then her counterpart,

01:20:01.146 --> 01:20:05.156
a white male with blonde hair and blue eyes, deliberately made the same proposal.

01:20:05.556 --> 01:20:09.073
They were they were co-workers. They they they got along.

01:20:09.689 --> 01:20:12.886
So he decided I'm going to do the same thing she's going to do and see what

01:20:12.886 --> 01:20:16.277
happens. Well, those same bosses approved it.

01:20:16.940 --> 01:20:20.526
Her counterpart made sure that the program was implemented the way she wanted

01:20:20.526 --> 01:20:21.891
it. And it was successful.

01:20:22.431 --> 01:20:26.123
However, from that day forward, she started dying her hair blonde.

01:20:26.623 --> 01:20:30.677
And wearing blue-eyed contacts. She left that company and never looked back.

01:20:31.269 --> 01:20:35.720
Needless to say, she has become a leader in her field. So my question to you,

01:20:36.186 --> 01:20:40.470
is, how does her act of defiance jive with your thoughts on white privilege?

01:20:41.374 --> 01:20:44.433
Wow, one, that's a crazy story. That's a crazy story.

01:20:44.863 --> 01:20:48.956
And I hope that that guy, and I think that I talk about this in the book,

01:20:48.956 --> 01:20:55.880
that's an act of breaking white solidarity, which is a real thing.

01:20:56.264 --> 01:20:58.626
And I hope that he was able to point out to the people like,

01:20:58.626 --> 01:21:02.616
yo, you know, whatever, whatever her name was made exactly the same proposal.

01:21:02.616 --> 01:21:06.519
And like, why did he, why was it more acceptable coming from me than from her?

01:21:07.397 --> 01:21:10.426
But then also, I think, you know, to get directly answer your question,

01:21:10.973 --> 01:21:17.346
it demonstrates what we're saying is that in this society, if you can pass as

01:21:17.346 --> 01:21:20.435
white and you can move in the world as white and be seen as white,

01:21:20.766 --> 01:21:22.416
you're going to be taken more seriously.

01:21:22.416 --> 01:21:25.223
You're going to be given more opportunities, you're going to be treated well,

01:21:25.753 --> 01:21:31.496
better and I think that's important too and we can talk about that but I think

01:21:31.496 --> 01:21:37.626
that's the that's what it talks about white supremacy advantages people who

01:21:37.626 --> 01:21:39.960
it perceives as white yeah,

01:21:41.051 --> 01:21:43.722
How does weight loss relate to race relations?

01:21:45.917 --> 01:21:48.887
So that's why I start the book with that. So I start the book.

01:21:48.887 --> 01:21:54.717
So I was a chubby guy. Well, I was chubby, but I was an athlete.

01:21:54.717 --> 01:22:00.141
And so I didn't get unhealthy until after college. And then I got unhealthy.

01:22:00.851 --> 01:22:04.352
And so I start the book by talking a little bit about my struggle with weight.

01:22:04.968 --> 01:22:10.737
And I draw the parallel that. So let me actually back up because it won't make

01:22:10.737 --> 01:22:12.497
sense to your audience if you don't get this piece.

01:22:13.105 --> 01:22:17.457
As I struggled growing up with weight, one of the things that I would always

01:22:17.457 --> 01:22:20.927
hear is that, oh, you just got more of your mom in you because my mom's side,

01:22:20.927 --> 01:22:25.287
Irish, short, stocky is just what it is, right? Like, you might as well just

01:22:25.287 --> 01:22:27.670
make the best of it. You got to make the best of it.

01:22:28.385 --> 01:22:31.721
And then as I got older and I got divorced, and so I was really starting to

01:22:31.721 --> 01:22:35.624
like think about my life and try to be healthy in all aspects.

01:22:36.195 --> 01:22:39.611
And I lost a bunch of weight and I realized that, okay, yeah,

01:22:39.611 --> 01:22:43.921
it might be true that I got more on my mom's side than me, but that wasn't predetermined

01:22:43.921 --> 01:22:46.831
what my possibilities were, that I could go be healthy.

01:22:48.231 --> 01:22:52.697
I could get in good shape. I could lose the weight that I wanted to lose.

01:22:53.144 --> 01:22:57.981
And for me, that parallels the way whiteness is talked about in our country

01:22:57.981 --> 01:23:00.154
and in our society. It's that you're born white.

01:23:00.497 --> 01:23:03.661
That is just what it is. You got more of that European in you,

01:23:03.661 --> 01:23:09.501
whatever it is. And so you're not going to be able to stand up and tell your

01:23:09.501 --> 01:23:14.508
bosses that, hey, that black woman's idea is the same exact one that I just did.

01:23:15.151 --> 01:23:18.751
And you're kind of whacked for not going with it, that you can't do those things

01:23:18.751 --> 01:23:24.470
or that you somehow can't recognize racism and stand up just on its own accord, that you need to,

01:23:24.992 --> 01:23:28.821
somebody needs to tell you it's wrong, that you couldn't see George Floyd getting

01:23:28.821 --> 01:23:31.481
murdered and be like, that's wrong.

01:23:31.481 --> 01:23:36.381
On your own accord, you had to have Darnella Frazier send out the video or,

01:23:36.742 --> 01:23:41.931
you know, you've got to ask yourself, is it, you know, does race have anything

01:23:41.931 --> 01:23:43.721
to do with Nolan Wells gone?

01:23:43.721 --> 01:23:47.301
You know, that he's the only black boy on that boat and he's the only one that

01:23:47.301 --> 01:23:53.500
didn't come back? Like, that we can't see reality for what it is and ask some questions about it.

01:23:56.351 --> 01:24:00.651
That's not true, right? So that's why I draw that parallel is that there's nothing

01:24:00.651 --> 01:24:05.136
biological about whiteness that keeps us from recognizing how race is working.

01:24:05.832 --> 01:24:09.579
We are socialized to ignore it because of the advantages that whiteness offers

01:24:09.579 --> 01:24:13.280
us. But at the end of the day, it's going to destroy us.

01:24:13.826 --> 01:24:17.605
It's going, you know, I talked about being able to go to college.

01:24:18.649 --> 01:24:21.955
And that's true. My dad cosigned, but he cosigned on my student loans.

01:24:22.476 --> 01:24:28.201
And now my loans is through the roof. My interest is capitalized out about four times what I took out.

01:24:28.305 --> 01:24:32.729
Like, I think that's also a good parallel for how whiteness operates.

01:24:32.729 --> 01:24:37.749
It might open the door, but it's only opening the door so it can squeeze more

01:24:37.749 --> 01:24:41.579
out of you, right? Especially if you grew up poor, especially if you don't have

01:24:41.579 --> 01:24:46.108
access, if you're not, if your last name ain't Trump and you can't finesse a crypto business,

01:24:48.738 --> 01:24:52.939
it's not going to work for you. And at the end of the day, look at him and tell

01:24:52.939 --> 01:24:55.955
me that he's happy and I got a bridge somewhere I can sell you.

01:25:00.275 --> 01:25:07.601
Well well speaking about politics how is whiteness at play in the 2026 midterm elections,

01:25:08.184 --> 01:25:17.684
oh man so first of all this whole fear about democratic socialism and and all that is wild because,

01:25:18.594 --> 01:25:20.024
And I don't want to get too, like, well,

01:25:22.575 --> 01:25:25.325
I would consider myself, like I said, anti-capitalist and all that.

01:25:25.325 --> 01:25:31.355
But it is crazy to see so much fear being ginned up about the possibility of

01:25:31.355 --> 01:25:32.526
taking care of each other.

01:25:33.118 --> 01:25:38.940
Universal health care. Look at New York, like, child care, grocery stores,

01:25:39.242 --> 01:25:40.432
public transportation.

01:25:40.739 --> 01:25:45.266
None of these things are bad, objectively. They're just not bad.

01:25:45.690 --> 01:25:52.065
And if they weren't coming from a Pakistani Muslim, we wouldn't be thinking

01:25:52.065 --> 01:25:55.025
twice about it, right? If a white man was saying that, matter of fact,

01:25:55.025 --> 01:25:58.835
when Franklin Delano Roosevelt said that thing, we were like, oh, okay, let's get it.

01:25:59.293 --> 01:26:03.600
Similar to your story, right? Like this message, which is objectively positive.

01:26:04.835 --> 01:26:10.468
When it's in a brown or black face, it's just not accepted. So whiteness is at play in that way.

01:26:10.828 --> 01:26:14.865
There's also, though, this idea I think whiteness thrives on independence and

01:26:14.865 --> 01:26:18.005
commodity and making profit out of everything.

01:26:18.005 --> 01:26:21.705
And that's why it's so intimately tied. Whether you're looking at Dr.

01:26:21.705 --> 01:26:27.103
King or you're looking at the Michigan Senate race and all that, it's tied to communism.

01:26:27.693 --> 01:26:31.015
It's tied to you know like one of the things that they're throwing at memdani

01:26:31.015 --> 01:26:36.245
is he's a communist you know and and the communists are taking over and anything

01:26:36.245 --> 01:26:39.752
that's for people is is anti-white,

01:26:40.442 --> 01:26:45.205
and anti-capitalist and so i think you can't you can't have that conversation

01:26:45.205 --> 01:26:48.698
without talking about whiteness at play here and then there's obviously just

01:26:49.121 --> 01:26:51.675
there's an active genocide happening in Palestine.

01:26:52.303 --> 01:26:58.438
And the fact that we can't name that as a manifestation of whiteness,

01:26:59.007 --> 01:27:04.145
and I'm saying Jewish folks have a particular relationship to whiteness that

01:27:04.145 --> 01:27:08.305
is very, very unique and not at all solidified, not in the same way that Irish

01:27:08.305 --> 01:27:11.146
people have assimilated into whiteness. But also...

01:27:12.062 --> 01:27:18.778
I learned that from Jewish folks. I learned my anti-Zionism from Jewish folks

01:27:18.928 --> 01:27:21.275
who understood that and have resisted whiteness.

01:27:22.370 --> 01:27:27.025
And that's still a major, major issue in the primary.

01:27:27.438 --> 01:27:32.348
It's going to be where do Democrats and Republicans, but I think Republicans,

01:27:32.894 --> 01:27:34.480
well, we could talk about that.

01:27:34.480 --> 01:27:38.350
Where do Democrats stand on that? But also Republicans, for different reasons,

01:27:38.350 --> 01:27:43.540
though. I don't think Tucker Carlson is critiquing Israel for the same reason

01:27:43.540 --> 01:27:44.739
that I'm critiquing Israel.

01:27:45.337 --> 01:27:49.042
I think that he's doing it because he don't like Jewish people point blank.

01:27:49.605 --> 01:27:54.556
And that, that is not acceptable to me either. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

01:27:55.309 --> 01:28:00.545
So I want you to answer some questions you pose to the readers of your book.

01:28:01.218 --> 01:28:08.800
Gotcha. I love that. All right. So first question, What white anti-racists are in your life today?

01:28:09.567 --> 01:28:15.988
Oh, man. Great question. So the first anti-racist that I think of in my life is my father.

01:28:16.627 --> 01:28:24.140
My dad, Leon Virden, is somebody who has always taught community and communal

01:28:24.140 --> 01:28:27.326
and look out for each other and do the right thing.

01:28:28.321 --> 01:28:33.336
Make sure people get what they need to succeed. And if something has,

01:28:33.654 --> 01:28:36.609
if there's been harm that's happened, fix it.

01:28:37.086 --> 01:28:40.967
And I think that that's fundamentally anti-racism. And then there are folks

01:28:40.967 --> 01:28:46.522
like I'm close with Christine Saxman and Shelly Touchluck, who wrote Being White Today.

01:28:46.801 --> 01:28:51.214
They're organizing in the Midwest and the West Coast specifically.

01:28:51.545 --> 01:28:56.367
I have a friendship with Robin DiAngelo, who I'm sure listeners have heard, wrote White Fragility.

01:28:56.705 --> 01:29:00.277
I mean, it's trying her best. I have connections where I just interviewed Michelle

01:29:00.277 --> 01:29:02.471
Chalmers, who wrote Liabilities of Whiteness.

01:29:03.347 --> 01:29:08.915
And then I have, you know, my brothers. I have folks in Surge, Chris Kras.

01:29:09.492 --> 01:29:16.260
I have there's I'm I'm pretty so surrounded by white anti-racist in my life. Yeah.

01:29:16.771 --> 01:29:20.727
Yeah. I figured I'd be a softball question for you. Well, I like to I like to

01:29:20.727 --> 01:29:22.877
throw I like to shout them out. You know what I mean?

01:29:23.377 --> 01:29:26.917
Yeah. Go Google them folks. Yeah, it's like Robin's been on the show.

01:29:27.377 --> 01:29:29.006
I was really honored to have her on.

01:29:30.517 --> 01:29:33.894
Hopefully some of the other folks you mentioned, we might be able to get them on too.

01:29:35.093 --> 01:29:40.207
Why is a world free of saviorism good for me?

01:29:41.256 --> 01:29:45.505
Because you, whenever we can come into our full strength.

01:29:45.730 --> 01:29:48.513
Oh, well, actually let me pause. Good for you. Are you saying like you,

01:29:48.513 --> 01:29:51.523
Eric, as a black man or good for me as a white man or just the,

01:29:51.523 --> 01:29:54.863
the general, like, why is it good for individuals? That's the way you phrased

01:29:54.863 --> 01:29:59.500
it in the, in the, in the book. So I guess it's supposed to be introspective.

01:29:59.779 --> 01:30:02.803
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So depending on both. So the general,

01:30:02.803 --> 01:30:04.968
like, why is it good for you? How I'm thinking about that?

01:30:05.531 --> 01:30:09.933
No matter who the reader is answering that a world free from Saviorism means

01:30:09.933 --> 01:30:13.990
that you are living into your own strength, your own truth, your own capabilities,

01:30:14.372 --> 01:30:15.900
and bringing your talents,

01:30:16.364 --> 01:30:20.583
and your unique skill sets and perspectives to the community,

01:30:20.583 --> 01:30:26.300
to the communal good, and expanding everybody's understanding of how we can do this thing better.

01:30:26.747 --> 01:30:33.064
When we, when our communities and our spaces are full of saviorism,

01:30:33.511 --> 01:30:37.383
we tend not to do that, right? We tend to just fall back and let other people's

01:30:37.383 --> 01:30:39.966
ideas take us where they need to, where we need to go.

01:30:40.707 --> 01:30:46.253
Which is also so funny uh about the ways that particularly white liberals think

01:30:46.253 --> 01:30:51.671
about solving problems right with like philanthropy and and saving people as opposed to.

01:30:52.568 --> 01:30:55.883
You know getting down and dirty with them and seeing like what what what wisdom

01:30:55.883 --> 01:31:00.193
is actually here what knowledge is actually here and yeah that's i talk about

01:31:00.193 --> 01:31:04.467
that in the book too just like what do we actually believe is possible from from communities,

01:31:04.966 --> 01:31:07.878
that that the story is that they're not capable and,

01:31:08.443 --> 01:31:11.273
And then we see bullshit like the, my bad, I mean, I don't know if we can cuss

01:31:11.273 --> 01:31:12.961
on hearing that, but, uh.

01:31:13.920 --> 01:31:18.024
Yeah, the State Department, you know, throwing up maps of Africa with Nigeria

01:31:18.024 --> 01:31:22.954
landlocked, Mozambique up in the Horn of Africa, cultivar on the other complete other side.

01:31:22.954 --> 01:31:28.074
And like we actually have the nerve to act like that we have any sort of standard

01:31:28.074 --> 01:31:31.454
for for like quality and that we can't just go to the block.

01:31:31.454 --> 01:31:34.754
And I say this as teachers, too. Right. Like I was just talking to my brother

01:31:34.754 --> 01:31:37.454
who's a teacher. We're talking about the literacy crisis.

01:31:38.046 --> 01:31:42.835
And it's one of those things. And Chris Embiid talks about this for white folks who teach in the hood.

01:31:43.463 --> 01:31:47.934
If you go and we're talking about hip hop, go listen to a debate about the top

01:31:47.934 --> 01:31:51.864
five or people freestyling or the cypher that happens in the hallway before school.

01:31:52.247 --> 01:31:55.499
You'll see genius. You'll see intelligence. You'll see critical thinking.

01:31:55.853 --> 01:32:01.558
You'll see argument skills. You'll see all the things that we talk about inside

01:32:01.680 --> 01:32:04.653
Honors English 105 or whatever it is.

01:32:05.129 --> 01:32:09.599
It just don't happen via Shakespeare and Faulkner.

01:32:09.872 --> 01:32:15.596
It's Kiese Lamey from Mississippi instead of some of these dead white people.

01:32:16.197 --> 01:32:22.414
And so we just, when we remove saviorism, we start to recognize our own strengths,

01:32:22.414 --> 01:32:25.237
our own intelligence, our own beauty, and our own contributions,

01:32:25.491 --> 01:32:27.807
which makes it easier than to recognize everybody else's.

01:32:28.428 --> 01:32:33.061
And so then we're having authentic relationships, we're having authentic conversations,

01:32:33.467 --> 01:32:38.384
and we're coming up with effective solutions to the actual problems that our community faces.

01:32:39.264 --> 01:32:42.024
That was a really long-winded answer for that. My bad. No, no, no.

01:32:42.604 --> 01:32:47.824
No, you good. You good. It's like, you know, the viral video that's out now

01:32:47.824 --> 01:32:52.255
is, you know, when Tavis Smiley used to have those summits.

01:32:54.014 --> 01:32:56.694
And they were going around the table and Louis Farrakhan said,

01:32:56.694 --> 01:32:57.849
hold up, wait a minute, wait a minute.

01:32:58.424 --> 01:33:02.644
Why are we asking white folks to do something that we can do ourselves?

01:33:02.644 --> 01:33:04.494
And he got a standing ovation for that.

01:33:04.996 --> 01:33:09.684
And, you know, and that's kind of the deal with the, you know,

01:33:09.684 --> 01:33:12.632
that I think about the book, The Black Messiah.

01:33:13.079 --> 01:33:16.295
And the whole concept of that book was that there was one Messiah.

01:33:16.928 --> 01:33:20.870
He happened to be black. And that was Jesus. But it was like,

01:33:21.566 --> 01:33:22.960
we don't need another one.

01:33:23.256 --> 01:33:27.704
It's like we've got that one. That one from our teaching, because he was a theologian,

01:33:27.704 --> 01:33:31.004
is still alive, you know, in our lives and so forth.

01:33:31.004 --> 01:33:37.264
So what we need is more community and more, you know, collective thought as

01:33:37.264 --> 01:33:41.364
opposed to trying to rally behind one person.

01:33:42.093 --> 01:33:46.244
And then the other thing was that, you know, pointing out that when we do single

01:33:46.244 --> 01:33:49.714
out one person in a black community, like a Malcolm X, like a Dr.

01:33:49.714 --> 01:33:52.864
King, they tend to take them out. Right.

01:33:53.474 --> 01:33:57.104
And so a lot of people, I'll never forget when President Obama got elected,

01:33:57.104 --> 01:34:00.064
that was the first thing people were saying, man, they're going to kill him,

01:34:00.064 --> 01:34:01.867
man. He get out here and start doing something.

01:34:02.215 --> 01:34:05.186
I say he's probably the safest black man in America right now.

01:34:05.698 --> 01:34:11.114
He's got a whole army. He literally has a whole army protecting him at any time he wants to.

01:34:11.491 --> 01:34:16.252
He needs the protection it's the rest of us that need to be concerned right

01:34:16.548 --> 01:34:22.230
it's the tamir rices and the trayvon martins and the freddie grays and the george floyds,

01:34:22.847 --> 01:34:27.474
and the philando castills they're the ones that yeah like and we're seeing that

01:34:27.474 --> 01:34:28.750
pushback now that's i mean.

01:34:29.508 --> 01:34:34.449
Carol anderson wrote white rage and and she's uh you know extended that to uh,

01:34:35.096 --> 01:34:38.334
what that's what we're through that now the pushback to an Obama presidency

01:34:38.674 --> 01:34:44.314
is the the nonsense that we're seeing now that's exactly right yeah all right

01:34:44.546 --> 01:34:48.819
another question you asked where have you experienced white fatigue.

01:34:51.440 --> 01:34:56.280
That's a good question. I experienced, so there's a couple ways to think about this.

01:34:56.530 --> 01:35:00.150
So white fatigue is often misunderstood.

01:35:00.150 --> 01:35:06.640
And so like, because it was like black fatigue was the viral thing and it was

01:35:06.940 --> 01:35:10.610
turned into white people being sick of black like that.

01:35:10.610 --> 01:35:13.030
It was being sick of black people. And that's not what I'm thinking about,

01:35:13.030 --> 01:35:16.270
right? And I'm not thinking about white people being sick of white people.

01:35:17.290 --> 01:35:20.549
White fatigue, as I talk about it, is,

01:35:22.802 --> 01:35:27.582
what happens oftentimes for white folks when you learn the true history of our

01:35:27.582 --> 01:35:30.405
country, when you could just get, it can feel overwhelming.

01:35:30.892 --> 01:35:36.512
And so there are times, right? Like I think about the summer of racial reckoning

01:35:36.512 --> 01:35:42.072
and seeing Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, Floyd in one summer, you know what I mean?

01:35:42.072 --> 01:35:46.372
And then we're Sonya Massey and we're seeing, you know, that comes off,

01:35:46.372 --> 01:35:48.582
I'm from Minneapolis. So that came right off Philando.

01:35:49.042 --> 01:35:51.204
My wife went to high school with Phil.

01:35:51.716 --> 01:35:56.862
You know, that was right after Terrence Franklin and Jamar Clark and all that.

01:35:56.862 --> 01:36:04.782
And so for me, my personal answer to that is it is exhausting to see the ways

01:36:04.782 --> 01:36:10.162
that whiteness operates to destroy people and communities that I love and then.

01:36:10.961 --> 01:36:17.071
To have to have some of the most basic conversations about race and have that be debated.

01:36:17.530 --> 01:36:21.942
That can be exhausting it can be exhausting so there's that way and then there's

01:36:21.942 --> 01:36:28.181
also just it can it can be exhausting to to process the truth of of what's going on,

01:36:28.876 --> 01:36:32.462
you know what i mean i remember a mentor of mine and folks your audience will

01:36:32.462 --> 01:36:38.314
probably recognize his name resuma and my grandmother's hands was popular booked in the uprisings,

01:36:38.877 --> 01:36:42.602
um and he's from minneapolis and when it when that came out his release party

01:36:42.602 --> 01:36:47.512
what he did is he had the postcards of lynchings And he took the black folks

01:36:47.512 --> 01:36:50.922
out And it just had the white people Who had brought their kids like it was

01:36:51.342 --> 01:36:52.442
a theater You know what I mean?

01:36:52.442 --> 01:36:56.312
It was like an event It was like this is what we're going to do And he asked

01:36:56.312 --> 01:36:59.446
white folks to like sit with that What does that mean? What is that like?

01:36:59.818 --> 01:37:03.202
How are you living that? How is that Trauma being carried with you?

01:37:03.202 --> 01:37:07.475
Epigenetically and morally And spiritually and physically,

01:37:09.160 --> 01:37:15.024
And that comes with emotional, mental, and physical tiredness and fatigue.

01:37:15.641 --> 01:37:20.940
And so white fatigue is something I want to say we need to not experience it

01:37:20.940 --> 01:37:22.480
or name it when we're experiencing it.

01:37:22.748 --> 01:37:25.621
But we can't let it stop us as white folks, particularly.

01:37:28.140 --> 01:37:32.407
How does being capable of interrupting racism feel?

01:37:33.357 --> 01:37:38.908
How does it feel scary? Sometimes. Rewarding? Sometimes.

01:37:40.019 --> 01:37:46.416
I think the biggest thing that I feel with it and that I hope others feel is

01:37:46.767 --> 01:37:51.256
a sense of duty and just ability.

01:37:52.519 --> 01:37:56.919
I know what to do and going to do it. And so there's just a sort of,

01:37:57.259 --> 01:38:02.700
I don't know what the, what would you say? Like maybe just like a steadfastness.

01:38:02.985 --> 01:38:06.009
You feel just like grounded and steadfast. Like this is what it is.

01:38:06.009 --> 01:38:08.871
And if this happens, this is how I'm going to act.

01:38:09.277 --> 01:38:11.210
Period. Point blank. No question about it.

01:38:12.180 --> 01:38:15.139
A sense of resolve. That's the word I'm looking for. Resolve.

01:38:15.139 --> 01:38:16.533
Like, you feel resolved.

01:38:17.108 --> 01:38:20.129
Or in the hip-hop community, standing on business, right? Yeah,

01:38:20.129 --> 01:38:23.284
you're 10 toes down. You're going to stand on business. Exactly. 100%.

01:38:24.007 --> 01:38:26.676
All right, you end your book with this passage.

01:38:27.416 --> 01:38:33.785
We can live in a world that values stories. We can live in a world that sees the divine in creation.

01:38:34.244 --> 01:38:39.718
We can live in a world where we celebrate similarities and grow from learning about differences.

01:38:40.188 --> 01:38:45.739
We can live in a world that is curious and searching for connection We can unlearn

01:38:45.739 --> 01:38:50.903
the whiteness frame for understanding the world We can live in harmony,

01:38:51.635 --> 01:38:56.249
So my question to you is Do you believe that the readers of Breaking the Privilege

01:38:56.249 --> 01:39:00.807
Frame Will act accordingly to make that possibility a reality?

01:39:01.814 --> 01:39:06.028
I do, yeah, I can honestly say that, I do I think,

01:39:06.549 --> 01:39:10.492
I've traveled the country doing this work And I haven't,

01:39:11.419 --> 01:39:15.239
Most of the people that I met I think I can think of two offhand Who are just

01:39:15.239 --> 01:39:17.824
like, no, I don't like people like that Like, I don't like them,

01:39:18.271 --> 01:39:22.099
Most of the people that I meet are like, yeah, I can get with that And they're

01:39:22.099 --> 01:39:25.369
just afraid Or they think that it comes with giving up something Or somebody,

01:39:25.369 --> 01:39:28.549
you know, in order to do that They gotta suffer in some way,

01:39:29.065 --> 01:39:32.994
And so I hope that Breaking the Privilege Frame makes it clear that.

01:39:34.041 --> 01:39:38.503
In the short term and in some really narrow senses, you're going to lose some

01:39:38.503 --> 01:39:42.721
advantages in white supremacy of being white, but you're going to gain so much more.

01:39:43.249 --> 01:39:45.483
You're going to gain connection. You're going to gain healing.

01:39:45.483 --> 01:39:48.373
You're going to gain power. You're going to come away with a sense of being

01:39:48.373 --> 01:39:53.065
resolved about doing something about racism and white supremacy.

01:39:53.698 --> 01:39:58.293
And so I do think that the readers of Breaking the Privileged Frame will do

01:39:58.293 --> 01:40:04.567
it and will take it seriously and work towards that world of harmony and connection.

01:40:05.293 --> 01:40:09.770
All right. So finish this sentence. I have hope because.

01:40:10.427 --> 01:40:14.495
I am human and we are human. All right. That's cool.

01:40:15.753 --> 01:40:19.446
If people want to get this book, Breaking the Privileged Frame, how can they do that?

01:40:19.796 --> 01:40:23.273
So it's available anywhere you buy books. I would tell you to go check out your

01:40:23.273 --> 01:40:28.330
local independent bookstore. If they're not currently have a copy in stock, ask them to order it.

01:40:28.875 --> 01:40:33.653
Otherwise, go to like bookshop.org, anywhere by Amazon. But if you must,

01:40:33.653 --> 01:40:35.376
you can order it on Amazon.

01:40:37.281 --> 01:40:40.166
So if people want to reach out to you, how can they do that?

01:40:40.502 --> 01:40:44.528
You can reach out on Instagram, Ryan Verdon Official.

01:40:44.936 --> 01:40:49.261
You can find me on website, Lear Cultural Coaching. That's L-I-R.

01:40:49.702 --> 01:40:53.737
Yeah, really, I monitor those pretty closely. If you Google Ryan Virden,

01:40:53.737 --> 01:40:58.157
V-I-R-D-E-N, I'll come up. There'll be any of those ways to contact me.

01:40:58.157 --> 01:41:02.387
And I definitely love interacting with folks. So do get in touch.

01:41:03.085 --> 01:41:08.217
Well, Ryan Virden, first of all, thank you for writing the book and thank you

01:41:08.217 --> 01:41:11.067
for doing the work that you're doing.

01:41:11.407 --> 01:41:18.167
I think it's vitally important that, you know, in a previous conversation,

01:41:18.167 --> 01:41:23.707
somebody asked me about can America survive what we're going through now?

01:41:23.707 --> 01:41:28.101
And I said, yeah, if we have a mindset of rebuilding.

01:41:29.987 --> 01:41:34.540
And I always use the example, I say always, I've been using the example lately,

01:41:35.281 --> 01:41:38.875
to remind people that Jesus was only a rabbi for three years.

01:41:39.275 --> 01:41:41.254
Prior to that, he was a carpenter.

01:41:41.759 --> 01:41:47.357
There's a lesson in that, that in order to make something better,

01:41:47.357 --> 01:41:51.337
sometimes you have to tear stuff down, but you gotta have the capacity to build

01:41:51.337 --> 01:41:52.742
something better, something new.

01:41:53.531 --> 01:41:59.533
And so I believe that what you're doing with this book and the teaching and

01:41:59.533 --> 01:42:06.986
the counseling and all that stuff is the kind of work that needs to be done to make this happen.

01:42:07.628 --> 01:42:12.573
And so I greatly appreciate you doing that. And of course, I'm really,

01:42:12.573 --> 01:42:15.543
really humbled and honored that you took the time to come on a podcast.

01:42:15.543 --> 01:42:16.969
So thank you again for being here.

01:42:17.489 --> 01:42:21.503
Man, thank you, Erik. Thank you for making the time. I'm humbled and honored,

01:42:22.003 --> 01:42:26.012
to come on here. And yeah, I appreciate it. I appreciate it.

01:42:26.441 --> 01:42:30.553
So now the rule, before I let you go, the rule is that once you've been on the

01:42:30.553 --> 01:42:33.273
show, that you have an open invitation to come back.

01:42:33.273 --> 01:42:37.393
So if you've got some other projects happening, if you want to continue the

01:42:37.393 --> 01:42:42.131
discussion about the greatest hip hop people, or you want to get real deep into

01:42:42.520 --> 01:42:46.485
changing this country, just let me know, brother, and we'll let you come back on.

01:42:47.123 --> 01:42:49.563
I appreciate it. So hold on. Can I ask you that? Because, you know,

01:42:49.563 --> 01:42:51.892
the hip-hop conversation, I was like, oh, we could get into that.

01:42:52.538 --> 01:42:56.433
Well, Kendrick or Lupe, you follow that debate where Lupe said he's a better

01:42:56.433 --> 01:42:59.491
rapper, but Kendrick is a better artist? Where are you at?

01:43:00.112 --> 01:43:06.072
Well, I think, you know, paying for a show, Lupe is probably a better show.

01:43:06.706 --> 01:43:10.243
But I can't fight a brother that won a Pulitzer Prize, man.

01:43:11.383 --> 01:43:15.449
I just can't do that. You know, Kendrick, and that Super Bowl,

01:43:16.098 --> 01:43:20.413
you know, I'm sorry, that's right up, that Super Bowl performance is right up

01:43:20.413 --> 01:43:24.103
there, one of the best ones ever done, and the thought that he put into it and

01:43:24.103 --> 01:43:26.999
the way that he tied it in with his lyrics,

01:43:27.753 --> 01:43:29.036
yeah, that's...

01:43:29.794 --> 01:43:35.843
If that's not artistry, I don't know what that is. Yeah. You know what I mean? No, facts, facts.

01:43:36.244 --> 01:43:40.433
It's one of, I always enter, you know, in my bio, I always say that facetiously,

01:43:40.433 --> 01:43:43.283
like, I'll debate your top five or whatever. And some, actually not always,

01:43:43.283 --> 01:43:46.453
but sometimes people's top five needs to be like, come on, man.

01:43:47.291 --> 01:43:49.853
But for the most part, when I talk to people like that, I'm like,

01:43:49.853 --> 01:43:53.453
man, what a blessing it is to be able to debate such high art, right?

01:43:53.453 --> 01:43:58.893
Like, to be able to, to live at a time with Kendrick and Lupe and Mos and Ali,

01:43:59.473 --> 01:44:03.729
and Black Thought and, you know, some of these folks, it's just like,

01:44:04.362 --> 01:44:07.601
it's what gives me hope, for real. Yeah.

01:44:08.094 --> 01:44:11.606
Well, Ryan, again, thank you for doing this, brother. I appreciate it.

01:44:11.606 --> 01:44:15.061
Thank you, Erik. All right, guys, and we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:44:27.606 --> 01:44:36.176
Right. And we are back. And so I want to thank my guests, Eileen Isola and Ryan Virden.

01:44:36.176 --> 01:44:39.746
First of all, Lieutenant Colonel, I got it right in the intros,

01:44:40.126 --> 01:44:45.206
but during the interview, I noticed that I did the Mississippi thing with your

01:44:45.206 --> 01:44:47.592
last name instead of the way I was supposed to say it.

01:44:47.963 --> 01:44:50.084
In Mississippi, there's a town called Isola.

01:44:50.899 --> 01:44:57.976
And so if I called you Isola instead of Isola I deeply apologize. And I appreciate

01:44:57.976 --> 01:45:02.502
your grace if I mispronounced your name for letting me slide with that.

01:45:03.038 --> 01:45:08.697
You know, but Eileen Isola, you know, the book that she has written,

01:45:09.048 --> 01:45:13.235
it's powerful because it's a historical book.

01:45:13.862 --> 01:45:18.176
And it's based off of the narratives of people, primarily women,

01:45:18.176 --> 01:45:23.538
who went through the Air Force Academy over these last 50 years.

01:45:24.139 --> 01:45:25.926
And, you know, just...

01:45:27.138 --> 01:45:31.958
You know, like I told her, the most moving part of that book was,

01:45:32.835 --> 01:45:36.661
you know, all of it is powerful, but that navigating part.

01:45:37.336 --> 01:45:41.828
Because in the navigating, one of the things as a soldier that you have to navigate

01:45:41.828 --> 01:45:45.808
is that some of the, especially if you go to war, some of the people you build

01:45:45.808 --> 01:45:50.461
relationships with, some of the people, camaraderie, folks in your unit,

01:45:50.652 --> 01:45:52.272
folks that you command even.

01:45:53.028 --> 01:45:58.386
You know, in war, you lose those people or you could lose those people.

01:45:58.920 --> 01:46:01.537
And so the way that.

01:46:03.658 --> 01:46:10.478
The painstaking way to humanize those folks that serve, because,

01:46:10.478 --> 01:46:16.238
you know, like I said, we go on the news and you'll see a face that maybe any

01:46:16.238 --> 01:46:18.612
event, Memorial Day, something like that.

01:46:18.955 --> 01:46:23.218
One of the families of the soldiers will, representatives will,

01:46:23.218 --> 01:46:25.276
you know, say some things or whatever.

01:46:25.949 --> 01:46:31.051
But when you read the book, the people that were highlighted that were lost,

01:46:31.547 --> 01:46:35.547
and just the detail and just the humanism that was put on them,

01:46:36.278 --> 01:46:38.246
it's like even though you don't know them,

01:46:40.218 --> 01:46:45.038
you feel that loss with the people telling the story in that book.

01:46:45.038 --> 01:46:50.158
And I really, that was a really, really moving part for me because it's just

01:46:50.158 --> 01:46:54.841
a reminder that when you sign up to serve in our military,

01:46:55.663 --> 01:46:58.998
you know, that, you know, a lot of people like, well, man, I'm just trying to

01:46:58.998 --> 01:47:04.018
get free education for college or, you know, I just want to get some benefits,

01:47:04.018 --> 01:47:05.818
you know, good health care plan.

01:47:05.818 --> 01:47:09.996
I mean, you know, just stuff that people are trying to get in a regular employment,

01:47:10.648 --> 01:47:13.905
that the government provides through military service.

01:47:14.814 --> 01:47:20.140
But the job is to defend the nation and to fight in wars.

01:47:21.939 --> 01:47:28.794
And that is one of the casualties is, you know, it's the reality,

01:47:28.794 --> 01:47:30.705
I should say, is being a casualty.

01:47:31.267 --> 01:47:34.390
Because even if you don't die, you may get hurt.

01:47:35.166 --> 01:47:40.774
And, you know, I encourage people, listen to podcasts, get involved with Wounded

01:47:40.774 --> 01:47:43.791
Warrior Project and all these other different organizations.

01:47:44.336 --> 01:47:51.034
Organizations, USO, anything you can, you know, to, to help people who are trying

01:47:51.034 --> 01:47:56.345
to, because some people adjust really, really well, but a number of people do not.

01:47:56.769 --> 01:48:00.123
And so all these different organizations are there to help.

01:48:00.358 --> 01:48:04.544
You know, I mentioned I was in the American Legion for a little bit and,

01:48:04.544 --> 01:48:09.314
you know, there's veterans of foreign wars, all these, all these different support organizations.

01:48:09.610 --> 01:48:13.174
You know, when they have fundraisers, do the best that you can.

01:48:13.614 --> 01:48:17.394
I know things are hard and everybody, including me, is asking you for money

01:48:17.394 --> 01:48:22.364
for stuff. And this is campaign season. And if I get another urgent email from

01:48:22.364 --> 01:48:24.953
John Ossoff, oh my God, right?

01:48:25.659 --> 01:48:31.499
We know you're trying to raise money, brother. We get it. And I support you 100%.

01:48:31.667 --> 01:48:37.197
But not every email is urgent, my bad. You just ask me for the money.

01:48:37.551 --> 01:48:38.194
You know what I'm saying?

01:48:38.674 --> 01:48:41.284
Just ask for the money. We know you're out there campaigning.

01:48:41.284 --> 01:48:42.689
We know that you're in a battle.

01:48:43.276 --> 01:48:50.699
But anyway, but back to Eileen Isola, please go get that book. Necessary Turbulence.

01:48:51.400 --> 01:48:53.960
Please go get that book. And then Ryan Verdon.

01:48:55.145 --> 01:48:59.000
You know, he's in the Atlanta area, so I think I finally got another friend. Yay.

01:48:59.453 --> 01:49:09.405
Ryan is doing some real work in helping rebuild this nation because we've got

01:49:09.405 --> 01:49:11.753
to get away from this whole.

01:49:13.553 --> 01:49:16.705
Well, let me say it like this, and this will kind of lead into my commentary,

01:49:16.705 --> 01:49:19.011
right? Whiteness is overrated.

01:49:20.037 --> 01:49:27.435
And I say that not to demean the value of people who identify as white,

01:49:27.435 --> 01:49:30.125
but this whole thing about.

01:49:31.265 --> 01:49:35.374
You know, we got these people in office now that want to NDI,

01:49:35.950 --> 01:49:41.445
and and take, you know, turn the clock back on all the civil rights gains that

01:49:41.445 --> 01:49:45.305
were made and this, that and the other and the Confederate soldiers and the

01:49:45.305 --> 01:49:47.116
South will rise again and all that crap.

01:49:47.913 --> 01:49:52.925
So it's over with. It's done. It's, you know, we get it that this is the life

01:49:52.925 --> 01:49:56.630
support movement for that, but it's over with.

01:49:56.973 --> 01:50:02.233
You can go ahead and pull the plug on it. Because once the people are in place

01:50:02.640 --> 01:50:06.552
and starting in this election, 2026, people will be in place.

01:50:07.173 --> 01:50:11.121
And once those people are in place and then more people and more people by,

01:50:12.005 --> 01:50:17.755
I would say, by 2032, this country will be going in a totally different direction.

01:50:17.755 --> 01:50:22.115
And if you're still trying to cling on to the racist past, you're going to be

01:50:22.115 --> 01:50:24.595
left behind and left out of the conversation.

01:50:24.595 --> 01:50:30.435
One of the things I was mentioning offline was that just look at what happened

01:50:30.435 --> 01:50:37.037
with South Africa and look at how Nelson Mandela and the ANC got power.

01:50:38.067 --> 01:50:43.176
P.W. Bolta and all them guys weren't dead. They just conceded power.

01:50:43.825 --> 01:50:47.917
And once they conceded power, South Africa started rebuilding.

01:50:48.655 --> 01:50:54.497
And, you know, you hear all this stuff from Elon Musk and all these other disgruntled

01:50:54.497 --> 01:50:57.687
folks because they're not in power anymore, right?

01:50:58.067 --> 01:51:03.226
They grew up, you know, Elon Musk is old enough to have grown up in apartheid.

01:51:04.070 --> 01:51:12.620
And, you know, when you've been doing everything, you've been able to sashay through everything,

01:51:13.467 --> 01:51:17.768
and then to have that power taken away from you, rightfully so,

01:51:18.594 --> 01:51:20.655
yeah, you're not dealing with it well.

01:51:21.221 --> 01:51:28.733
But what's happening is that South Africa did not regress. It has moved forward.

01:51:29.471 --> 01:51:33.309
Economically has moved forward. It's politically stable.

01:51:34.070 --> 01:51:43.881
It's, you know, it's considered one of the nations that are players in international discussions.

01:51:44.817 --> 01:51:49.889
And so that can happen here in America,

01:51:50.717 --> 01:51:58.007
It should happen here And not trying to, you know, do the USA-USA kind of thing

01:51:58.007 --> 01:52:03.998
But I've always made the argument That the United States is the most unique nation on the planet.

01:52:04.958 --> 01:52:12.227
We've only been in existence for 250 years And we have such influence I'll see you next time.

01:52:13.077 --> 01:52:20.702
Every nation that is established in the world has a representative as a citizen of this nation.

01:52:21.729 --> 01:52:25.114
There's something divine in that. There's something powerful in that.

01:52:25.704 --> 01:52:32.447
And if we don't embrace it, if we keep getting caught up in white is right and

01:52:32.447 --> 01:52:35.498
everything else is okay, we're going to miss it.

01:52:36.104 --> 01:52:40.930
We're going to miss it. And I think we've been pushing that blessing off long enough.

01:52:41.702 --> 01:52:46.604
I think it's time for us to take it to another level. Speaking of which.

01:52:49.137 --> 01:52:53.878
We used to have a little phrase growing up, say, some got to be dead.

01:52:55.676 --> 01:53:02.144
And something has to be done about corruption.

01:53:03.194 --> 01:53:09.256
You know, it's one thing for the New York Times or the Washington Post or some

01:53:09.256 --> 01:53:17.106
other periodical or news outlet find corruption and expose it.

01:53:17.106 --> 01:53:22.494
Or the Department of Justice, you know, does an investigation and finds corruption in people.

01:53:23.378 --> 01:53:28.452
You know, and that's a news story and people follow it and follow the trial and all that stuff.

01:53:29.044 --> 01:53:32.762
And, you know, and there's consequences if you get caught.

01:53:33.362 --> 01:53:41.580
But we've gotten to the point now where because of the brazenness of racism,

01:53:42.452 --> 01:53:45.012
we now see a brazenness in corruption.

01:53:45.674 --> 01:53:54.689
So the U.S. Senate is really, really struggling with Todd Blanch being the permanent attorney general.

01:53:56.199 --> 01:54:05.446
And the issue is the money that Donald Trump wants to give to people who stormed

01:54:05.446 --> 01:54:07.024
the Capitol on January 6th.

01:54:07.826 --> 01:54:14.656
And for those senators who were there that day, some of them in their mind has

01:54:14.656 --> 01:54:19.846
reconciled, well, it's okay because we're in charge again.

01:54:19.846 --> 01:54:23.556
Everything's all right. So we'll just, we'll let that slide.

01:54:23.556 --> 01:54:27.709
And that's what the president wants. And far be it for me to anger the president.

01:54:28.285 --> 01:54:31.095
But there are some senators who really have nothing to lose,

01:54:31.982 --> 01:54:39.706
and they are doing their best to try to say, if you want this man to be the

01:54:39.706 --> 01:54:41.303
attorney general of the United States,

01:54:41.947 --> 01:54:48.152
then that weaponization fund has to be off the table, period, done.

01:54:50.068 --> 01:54:55.688
And we need that in writing because it's one thing to say you ain't going to

01:54:55.688 --> 01:54:58.329
do it, then you get what you want, and then you do it anyway.

01:54:59.288 --> 01:55:02.615
So we need that in writing. And these folks don't want to put it in writing.

01:55:03.328 --> 01:55:08.227
They want to get what they want and then do the corrupt thing, right?

01:55:09.961 --> 01:55:15.650
And to me, if the Senate had done that from the opening day,

01:55:16.358 --> 01:55:22.238
from inauguration day in 2025, we would not be in this position once they saw

01:55:22.238 --> 01:55:24.536
the direction that this was going.

01:55:25.924 --> 01:55:35.308
It's like this whole deal with us going to war with Iran is more about money,

01:55:35.854 --> 01:55:40.368
than it is about nuclear weapons and it is about stability in the Middle East,

01:55:41.463 --> 01:55:49.443
or even making sure that oil commodities can travel astray to Hormuz, right?

01:55:50.145 --> 01:55:56.175
But see, like Ukraine and Russia are fighting a war over the sovereign independence of Ukraine.

01:55:56.687 --> 01:56:01.868
Russia is trying to reclaim Ukraine or at least part of it or more of it than

01:56:01.868 --> 01:56:04.772
it got the last time. That's how they got Crimea.

01:56:05.594 --> 01:56:09.888
And Ukraine is like, no, we are an independent nation and we're going to stand

01:56:09.888 --> 01:56:13.191
up for ourselves. That's more of a traditional war.

01:56:13.828 --> 01:56:17.743
Not that war is good, but that's usually how that works.

01:56:17.923 --> 01:56:24.384
Right. When Saddam Hussein wanted to reclaim Kuwait for Iraq,

01:56:25.648 --> 01:56:29.346
the world said, no, that's not going to happen. Right.

01:56:29.956 --> 01:56:31.825
And he had to back off.

01:56:33.459 --> 01:56:36.899
Those are traditional things. But this whole thing with Iran,

01:56:36.899 --> 01:56:39.699
we don't know as American citizens.

01:56:39.971 --> 01:56:43.269
We don't know why we're doing what we're doing.

01:56:44.359 --> 01:56:51.220
And that's a weird feeling, right? With Vietnam, people were not comfortable with it.

01:56:51.643 --> 01:56:54.169
But the premise was there. It's

01:56:54.169 --> 01:56:57.704
like, okay, well, we're trying to stop the spread of communism in Asia.

01:56:58.515 --> 01:57:03.429
We'd already got a track record of doing it in Korea. So now Vietnam is the

01:57:03.429 --> 01:57:05.515
next chapter in that story, right?

01:57:05.910 --> 01:57:08.980
And then China is like right in the middle. They've already committed.

01:57:09.160 --> 01:57:11.767
Russia at the time, the Soviet Union still existed.

01:57:12.794 --> 01:57:17.312
So that was a plausible argument.

01:57:17.960 --> 01:57:22.219
The United States was against the spread of communism. And so initially we went

01:57:22.219 --> 01:57:26.211
over to help the French and then we ended up embroiled in a war.

01:57:28.646 --> 01:57:39.670
That we did not win, by the way. And so, you know, again, plausible reasoning.

01:57:40.606 --> 01:57:48.581
But this whole Iran thing, it's it's nothing more because every other story

01:57:48.581 --> 01:57:52.721
I'm hearing is that, well, we're in a ceasefire. We're not on a ceasefire.

01:57:52.721 --> 01:57:55.576
We're going to stop shooting. The strait is open, all that stuff.

01:57:56.182 --> 01:58:03.955
And then you watch the volatility of the stock market based on the updates about what's going on in Iraq.

01:58:04.815 --> 01:58:08.257
And you start to see a pattern that this is a game about money.

01:58:09.275 --> 01:58:12.291
This has nothing to do with fighting

01:58:12.291 --> 01:58:18.391
for democracy or fighting for Iranian independence or none of that.

01:58:19.601 --> 01:58:25.869
End of the, you know, all those things have been said, but that's not the real mission.

01:58:26.870 --> 01:58:30.758
And to me, that's blatant corruption, right?

01:58:31.356 --> 01:58:35.667
Blatant corruption is the value system that we're supposed to have.

01:58:36.903 --> 01:58:41.621
Because when you make a commitment to fight, that means you're making a commitment

01:58:41.621 --> 01:58:48.027
to lose lives and to take lives in order to fight for a principle worth dying for.

01:58:48.967 --> 01:58:54.482
The 18 young men and women who have died, what did they die for, right?

01:58:55.074 --> 01:59:00.140
Other than they were stationed where the conflict took place.

01:59:00.946 --> 01:59:08.057
That's insane. If we're going to do this, then it needs to be explained why we're doing it.

01:59:09.963 --> 01:59:15.631
That's a blatant corruption, not so much of dollars and cents, but of our goodwill.

01:59:16.621 --> 01:59:19.853
We're supposed to hold the presidency. We're supposed to hold the U.S.

01:59:19.853 --> 01:59:22.653
Government in high esteem, the U.S. military in high esteem.

01:59:23.514 --> 01:59:28.013
But you jeopardize that when you do whatever you want to do and don't feel you

01:59:28.013 --> 01:59:32.754
have to be accountable for anything. People that are not accountable have no value.

01:59:33.591 --> 01:59:37.914
Let me say that again. People that are not accountable have no value.

01:59:38.873 --> 01:59:45.393
If you can't say I made a mistake, or if you can't articulate a cause for doing

01:59:45.393 --> 01:59:48.249
what you do, then you're not being accountable.

01:59:49.130 --> 01:59:54.395
And if you're not accountable, then how can we put a value on you?

01:59:55.123 --> 01:59:58.934
Because you don't care. You don't care about us.

01:59:59.693 --> 02:00:02.544
You don't care about the damage you're causing.

02:00:03.511 --> 02:00:07.183
All you care about is, how am I going to make some money off of that?

02:00:08.088 --> 02:00:12.863
You know, the polymarkers are making money off how long the ceasefire is going

02:00:12.863 --> 02:00:15.755
to last. Who's going to strike first?

02:00:16.576 --> 02:00:20.553
How many days is the ceasefire? I mean, you know, just all sorts of just stupid

02:00:20.553 --> 02:00:27.921
stuff instead of a nation rallying around a cause. Right.

02:00:29.351 --> 02:00:34.486
I was just reminded of a story that I'm a diehard Cubs fan.

02:00:35.267 --> 02:00:38.363
And even though I lived on the south side of Chicago, went to White Sox games,

02:00:38.363 --> 02:00:40.236
I love the White Sox because I love baseball.

02:00:41.116 --> 02:00:45.773
But truth be told, I'm a diehard Cubs fan. And as you know, the Cubs didn't

02:00:45.773 --> 02:00:49.567
get lights until like the late 80s, early 90s. Right.

02:00:50.329 --> 02:00:52.988
The last major league team not to play night games.

02:00:54.426 --> 02:00:59.176
That was supposed to have ended in the 1940s. As a matter of fact,

02:00:59.779 --> 02:01:04.620
construction on the lights was supposed to start in November of 1941.

02:01:05.619 --> 02:01:08.776
A month later, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

02:01:09.724 --> 02:01:13.456
And Mr. Wrigley, who owned the Cubs at that time,

02:01:14.520 --> 02:01:19.413
immediately, whether it was an immediate call from the president or immediately,

02:01:20.186 --> 02:01:23.019
realized the dire situation we were in,

02:01:23.602 --> 02:01:30.396
stopped the construction of the lights and donated all the steel that was supposed

02:01:30.396 --> 02:01:32.130
to be used to build the lights,

02:01:33.023 --> 02:01:39.746
to the United States government to use for weapons or planes or tanks or wherever

02:01:39.746 --> 02:01:40.946
they wanted to use that steel for.

02:01:41.686 --> 02:01:49.519
185 tons of steel that this man had bought to put lights on a baseball stadium.

02:01:50.570 --> 02:01:55.406
In December of 1941, He took all that steel and gave it to the United States

02:01:55.406 --> 02:01:57.269
government and said, go win the war.

02:01:58.321 --> 02:02:02.936
That's fighting for a cause. That's what people do when there's a cause to fight

02:02:02.936 --> 02:02:08.056
for. People take action to make sure that the United States is successful in

02:02:08.056 --> 02:02:10.697
their battles. That's the dedication.

02:02:11.926 --> 02:02:18.049
Who is the rallying cry for Iran? What is the rallying cry for Iran?

02:02:19.073 --> 02:02:23.556
Nothing. But we're supposed to just go along with it because President Trump

02:02:23.556 --> 02:02:24.933
says this is what I want to do.

02:02:25.921 --> 02:02:31.369
That's corrupting. That's insulting. And we need to stand up with that.

02:02:31.857 --> 02:02:36.431
Just like these senators are standing up against this corruption.

02:02:36.687 --> 02:02:40.726
Because the other part of the deal that everybody keeps wanting to slide it,

02:02:40.726 --> 02:02:44.338
they keep throwing the weaponization fund in front of you.

02:02:44.768 --> 02:02:49.166
But the other part of the deal is the Trump family wants to be exempt from paying

02:02:49.166 --> 02:02:54.016
taxes for the rest of their lives and not have to pay any back taxes for the

02:02:54.016 --> 02:02:56.565
taxes they didn't pay prior to that.

02:02:57.982 --> 02:03:05.323
A grift. And so, you know, if I was in the Senate, I wouldn't vote for it either.

02:03:05.724 --> 02:03:11.755
But of course, I'd be a Democrat, so probably nothing I'd vote for in this administration, to be honest.

02:03:11.959 --> 02:03:15.937
But just standing on principle, no.

02:03:16.719 --> 02:03:22.332
You want me to commit U.S. tax dollars. You get mad at me when I say I want

02:03:22.332 --> 02:03:25.577
to commit U.S. tax dollars to create universal health care.

02:03:26.401 --> 02:03:31.322
You get mad at me when I want to continue to spend money to have a department

02:03:31.322 --> 02:03:37.772
of education. You would get mad at me for pushing universal childcare or universal

02:03:37.772 --> 02:03:40.388
childcare credits even, right?

02:03:41.458 --> 02:03:46.456
But you want me to give money to people who stormed the building that I worked at?

02:03:48.197 --> 02:03:51.737
U.S. Capitol building? That's what you're asking, if I was a senator,

02:03:51.737 --> 02:03:53.359
that's what you'd be asking me to do.

02:03:54.180 --> 02:03:59.857
You want me to give money to people that you pardoned for doing your work and

02:03:59.857 --> 02:04:04.767
trying to disrupt an election that you lost, the count of the election,

02:04:04.767 --> 02:04:07.070
the official count, the certification.

02:04:07.644 --> 02:04:10.854
You want to disrupt that because you can't accept losing.

02:04:11.841 --> 02:04:19.226
You pardon those people that did that for you. And now you want me to vote for those folks to get paid.

02:04:20.160 --> 02:04:23.257
That's not being a Democrat. That's.

02:04:26.218 --> 02:04:31.257
Just common sense. I wouldn't do that. And none of the senators that actually

02:04:31.257 --> 02:04:37.175
are elected should do that, regardless of political affiliation. That's insane.

02:04:37.960 --> 02:04:39.667
But that's a sign of corruption.

02:04:40.628 --> 02:04:47.690
Again, corruption is not just about money. It's about your soul. Your soul is corrupt.

02:04:48.661 --> 02:04:49.759
There's no boundaries.

02:04:50.824 --> 02:04:56.561
The very first paragraph, what we call the preamble to the United States Constitution,

02:04:57.258 --> 02:05:00.788
is the most important paragraph on the planet.

02:05:02.222 --> 02:05:08.562
I heard John Meacham talk about the most important sentence in world history

02:05:08.562 --> 02:05:13.142
is the sentence that says we hold these truths to be self-evident,

02:05:13.142 --> 02:05:15.597
that all men are created equal, right?

02:05:16.365 --> 02:05:22.450
That they're endowed by their creator with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, right?

02:05:23.292 --> 02:05:27.642
He said that was the most important sentence. But to me, the most important

02:05:27.642 --> 02:05:31.972
paragraph ever written is the preamble to the United States Constitution.

02:05:31.972 --> 02:05:37.481
We, the people, in order to form a more perfect union, that's the North Star. That's the guide.

02:05:38.468 --> 02:05:42.085
That's what we should be working toward every day.

02:05:42.694 --> 02:05:47.294
Not the most abundant stock portfolio.

02:05:48.162 --> 02:05:55.192
Not the most side deals we can get with Saudi Arabia and China and all these other folks.

02:05:56.324 --> 02:06:00.459
The perfect union. That's what we should be pushing for each and every day.

02:06:01.088 --> 02:06:05.742
When those men and women take that oath, whether it's to fight in the military

02:06:05.742 --> 02:06:10.166
or to serve in the United States Congress, or even the President of the United States,

02:06:11.015 --> 02:06:15.212
when you take that oath to uphold the Constitution, you are supposed to be upholding,

02:06:15.857 --> 02:06:17.917
the very first paragraph.

02:06:18.952 --> 02:06:26.247
More importantly, we the people, in order to form a more perfect union.

02:06:27.090 --> 02:06:30.853
And in that paragraph, It defines three things.

02:06:31.621 --> 02:06:35.992
We're supposed to provide a defense for this nation. We're supposed to promote

02:06:35.992 --> 02:06:38.026
the general welfare of this nation.

02:06:38.688 --> 02:06:42.815
And we're supposed to protect the individual liberties of its citizens.

02:06:43.378 --> 02:06:45.468
That's all in that one paragraph.

02:06:46.524 --> 02:06:49.672
And these people raise their right hand and don't want to shake the hand of

02:06:49.672 --> 02:06:50.995
the vice president and all that.

02:06:53.637 --> 02:07:00.094
Because their soul is corrupted. And if we are going to have a nation that is

02:07:00.094 --> 02:07:04.336
going to extend beyond the 250 years of its current existence,

02:07:05.155 --> 02:07:07.146
we've got to redeem the soul.

02:07:08.010 --> 02:07:13.559
We've got to, we've got to rebuild the soul of this nation.

02:07:14.445 --> 02:07:20.508
So, you know, I just, when you go to the polls this November.

02:07:21.531 --> 02:07:22.546
Do it for good.

02:07:24.516 --> 02:07:30.344
Not just for Alex Pretty and Renee Good, but for good of the nation.

02:07:31.350 --> 02:07:35.645
Your vote this year will be a prayer for redemption.

02:07:36.352 --> 02:07:41.519
Your vote this year will be a commitment to rebuilding this nation.

02:07:42.421 --> 02:07:48.894
Your vote this year should be a guarantee that the United States of America

02:07:48.894 --> 02:07:51.070
will stand for another 250 years.

02:07:51.913 --> 02:07:55.726
That's why this election is important.

02:07:56.419 --> 02:08:01.010
Not because my friends are saying we urgently need you to donate money.

02:08:01.989 --> 02:08:09.244
The future of this country, the future that we envision for this country is on the line.

02:08:10.685 --> 02:08:18.332
If you believe that this nation should stand through the test of time, then vote like it.

02:08:19.287 --> 02:08:24.488
Stop voting for these people who just want to be part of the current corruption.

02:08:25.011 --> 02:08:30.259
Stop voting for people who tap dance for lobbyists and donors.

02:08:31.304 --> 02:08:34.813
Vote for the people. I don't care if you're in Michigan.

02:08:35.469 --> 02:08:40.345
I don't care if you're in Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee,

02:08:40.345 --> 02:08:47.995
Mississippi, Illinois, New York, Maine, Vermont, Maryland, California,

02:08:47.995 --> 02:08:49.743
Oregon, wherever you are.

02:08:50.765 --> 02:08:56.467
Please, please, please, ladies and gentlemen, vote for our future.

02:08:57.370 --> 02:08:59.245
Vote for our greatness.

02:09:00.256 --> 02:09:02.624
Vote for the America you want to live in.

02:09:04.288 --> 02:09:07.592
That's all I got Thank y'all for listening Until next time.