A Reasonable Argument Featuring Jamie Miller

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Welcome. I'm Eric Fleming, host of A Moment with Eric Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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The following program is hosted by the NVG Podcast Network.

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Music.

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Thank you. Thank you.

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You Hello, and welcome to another moment with Eric Fleming. I am your host, Eric Fleming.

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Today, I have a guest that I think you will appreciate the conversation.

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You may not agree with everything, but I hope you get a better understanding.

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And I hope it sets an example of how we're supposed to have discussions in this country.

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So I'm really, really excited for this.

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And I really hope that y'all appreciate it as much as I appreciated this guest coming on.

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And, yeah, I think this is going to be a good show.

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So, without any further ado, let's get it started with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Music.

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President Joe Biden pardoned his son, Hunter Biden, after previously committing

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to not interfere with legal proceedings.

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Brian Thompson, CEO of UnitedHealthcare's insurance unit, was fatally shot in

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a targeted attack outside a Manhattan hotel, with the assailants still at large.

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President-elect Donald Trump nominated Kash Patel, a former national security

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official, to lead the FBI.

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Chad chronister a florida sheriff

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nominated by president-elect trump to lead the dea

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withdrew his candidacy amid criticism and

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concerns over the responsibilities of the role the

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u.s justice department reported that the memphis police department uses excessive

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force and discriminates against black individuals walmart is revising its dei

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policies amid a conservative backlash against woke initiatives joining other

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major companies that have scaled back or eliminated similar programs. A U.S.

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Judge is considering a federal takeover of New York City's Rikers Island Jail

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due to the city's failure to improve violent conditions that endanger inmates and staff.

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Wisconsin Democratic Party Executive Director Ben Wickler has entered the race

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to chair the Democratic National Committee.

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South Korean lawmakers demanded President Yoon Suk-yeol's resignation or impeachment

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after his abrupt martial law declaration sparked chaos and a standoff with Parliament.

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French lawmakers passed a no-confidence vote against Prime Minister Michel Barnier,

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a move that jeopardizes the government's ability to manage a substantial budget deficit.

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The United Nations is seeking $47 billion in aid for 2025 to support 190 million

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people in crisis, despite facing unmet needs from prior appeals.

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Black Friday retail spending in the U.S. saw minimal growth in physical stores

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at 0.7%, while e-commerce sales surged by 14.6%. And the U.S.

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Postal Service reported delivering over 99.2 million ballots for the November

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election with a high success rate.

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I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that Moment of News. And now it's time for my guest, Jamie Miller.

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Jamie Miller is a seasoned political consultant, mostly known for working in

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Florida, although he has been successful in North Carolina, West Virginia and Mississippi as well.

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He is a former executive director of the Republican Party in Florida.

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He has managed and served, managed or served, excuse me, as senior advisor to

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four statewide campaigns, including president, governor, U.S.

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Senate and attorney general.

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He now shares his political insights on his blog and YouTube channel and has

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authored a book titled American Speeches That Change History.

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You can read and subscribe to his blog at www.ReasonableArguments.com.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Jamie Miller.

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Music.

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All right. Jamie Miller. How you doing, sir? You doing good?

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I'm doing better than I deserve. Well, that's that's all of us,

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if we really are honest about it.

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Well, first of all, thank you for coming on. So I've had a couple of guests

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on to kind of dissect what happened in the election.

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And I've had basically they've been, you know, independent writers,

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one kind of leans conservative, one kind of leans liberal.

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And so but you have a unique history. And so I wanted to get your take on it

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because I think it's important for my listeners to kind of get a sense.

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As many, as many, I hate to use the word autopsies, but as many analysis,

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I guess, of why the election went the way it went.

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But before I do that, what I normally do with a guest is offer a quote to them

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and let them respond to it.

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So your quote is really, really simple. It says, you are your ceiling.

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What is your, what does that quote mean to you? You know, it's funny on my dry

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erase board, I have that exact quote.

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And to me, it means that, you know, the only goals I've never met are goals I have not set.

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And so it, for me, it's to encourage lofty and aspirational goals because every

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goal that I've, that I have set, I have met.

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Yeah. Yeah. I can, I can relate to that. You know, and being somebody that's

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that's been involved in politics, it's run for office.

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You kind of have to have that kind of mindset, which leads us into our discussion,

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because I don't think there's any higher goal in American politics than to run for president.

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So let me ask you, why do you think that Donald Trump won this election?

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You can probably dissect this at least two ways.

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One is you talk about the campaign that Donald Trump ran, and the other is the

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campaign that Harris ran.

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So we'll start with Harris. I feel like she failed to tell people who she was,

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what she was going to do, and why she was qualified to do it.

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And at times I think she maybe tap danced around one of those topics at a time.

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But I don't know that she ever explained those three things succinctly to the American people.

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And so I think whenever things like attacks came her way, she didn't have the

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foundation to repel them.

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And then you look at the campaign of Donald Trump, which I think history will

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show that he ran a much different campaign in 2024 than he did in 2016 or 2020.

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And I like to break it down as simply as in 2024, he practiced the politics of addition.

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And in those two previous campaigns, he practiced the politics of subtraction.

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And by that, I mean, if you wronged Donald Trump or you ran against him or whatever,

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he would call you little Marco or, you know, whatever.

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And and it would stick and it would stay. He would stay mad at you.

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Right. And you were not going to be part of his administration.

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He really didn't care what you had to say.

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And compare that to 2024 where, you know, he practiced the politics of addition.

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He brought in Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He brought in Tulsa Gabbard.

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He brought in, you know, former, and Nikki Haley spoke, I mean,

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at the Republican National Convention.

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So I felt like he tried to reach a larger electorate in 2024.

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And it appears that he is doing so with his cabinet. So I'm encouraged.

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You know, I'm Republican.

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I write a right of center blog. I've certainly been around a lot longer than

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Donald Trump has been involved in politics.

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I probably will be around a lot longer, hopefully, after he's done being president.

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And, you know, so I like to think that, you know, while while I am right of

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center, I look at these things, I try to look at things, I try to view all 360,

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360 degrees of the elephant, so to speak.

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And, you know, nobody gets to see them all. But I try to my experience probably

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allows me to see more than most.

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And if I think that's the basic breakdown of this political campaign,

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we can get into and dive into deeper on either one of those folks or what they

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did. but I think that's probably a pretty good...

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You know, top line analysis of Harris's failures and how and how Trump was able

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to build a coalition that that helped him win.

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Yeah. So that's interesting. That's the first time I've heard anybody use the

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term addition with the Trump campaign, because people of my political.

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Thought and most people

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that I guess I don't know if you can call them fair

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or not but most of the talking heads they they

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focused in on what he was trying to eliminate like you know like mass deportation

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or DEI stuff like that so it doesn't naturally equate to us I'll just be general like that,

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that the word addition comes to mind.

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But you have a salient point. I mean, I don't remember people being as upfront

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as they were in previous elections that he ran.

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Like you said, he pushed away all the people that ran against him in Republican primary in 2016.

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They just came on board because they wanted a Republican to be president.

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They were part of the, told the department. The devil we know, right?

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Yeah. On our side of the aisle, we say we'll vote for a yellow dog,

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right? Before we vote the other way.

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But seriously though. And so in 2020, yeah, you, you, you kind of,

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you know, rinse and repeat,

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but I guess you do have a point because he did make it an effort at his particular

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rallies to, bring in different people.

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Because he didn't have any opposition, you know, for real.

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Although the one opponent that a lot of people thought would give him some grief was Ron DeSantis.

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And you weren't a big fan of him.

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You're from Florida. And you were not, you were very critical about Ron's campaign.

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I think you knew he was going to lose before he acknowledged it.

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And Ron has the same, Ron's been a great governor. And I've spoken and written

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about that ad nauseum. and certainly he'd be a great administrator and therefore

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I support him being secretary of defense.

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Before that was floated, I think I was the first person to advocate Ron DeSantis

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as secretary of the Navy because, you know, they had already picked somebody

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to be secretary of defense and so, and I still support that because he's a great administrator.

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He's a little bit of a tone deaf politician and he, I think he could learn from

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Donald Trump's 2024 campaign because in the past, Ron DeSantis has been guilty

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of practicing the politics of subtraction.

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You know, you're either with him or you're against him. And it's like that just

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because I'm not with you on this one particular thing doesn't mean I'm against you forever.

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It just means that you and I disagree on this one thing.

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And he kind of takes it as a, or in the past, he has taken it as a personal

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affront and would do the, you know, kind of practice the politics of subtraction.

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So that's interesting that you you you brought

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up about the because i want to

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get back to the harris thing for a point but

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since you brought up governors well i brought him

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governor santos and you finish it off about the

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appointment if i was in the

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united states senate i i would

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i would if i had my only choice

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was this guy what's his name pete hex it's hex

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stuff am i saying his name right i never mean

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to mispronounce anybody's name either so i understand the struggle

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you're going through but i would say it very similar to you just to you

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but we both could be wrong yeah yeah

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except or or or governor de

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santis i would i would say well if

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i only got these two choices give me governor de santis one

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because he's been a governor two he's he

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served in the military and and three

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he's been a congressman so he understands the

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diet can i add a fourth one to that

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okay you know he he he faced extreme extreme hardship on several occasions with

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these hurricanes you know when the the government came in and the hurricane

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last year i forget which one it was came and knocked the bridge out between

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the mainland of Lee County and Sanibel Island,

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which I'm sure a lot of people know about in Southwest Florida.

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And they said, oh, it's going to take four months to rebuild this bridge.

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DeSantis says, listen, when I was in the service, it didn't take us four months to build a bridge.

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We built them in days. And we put huge trucks across them in days.

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We're going to build that bridge in three days. And he did.

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He's like, we're not going to mess with the bureaucracy. We're not going to

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do this. Our people need this bridge working to get goods and services to people out on that island.

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And he did. And he did that time.

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There's numerous dozens of examples of Florida communities that were suffering

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due to hurricanes through means of no government. It's not politics. It's not partisan.

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A hurricane hits Republicans, Democrats, poor and rich, and he didn't care.

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If you need help, we're going to send help, and he planned the help.

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And so I think, you know, that I would add that as a fourth reason for him to

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be, you know, I would consider him a great administrator of whatever department

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he's, he would be, you know, honored to be picked.

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Type things yeah and then i was gonna flip it and say

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that hegstaff would be hegstaff i should say is the would be fall in the line

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of somebody that you would stick in as the secretary of the army rather than

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put him in the the top position and i would not say that ronda santis is,

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The governorship is great, but I do get your sentiment.

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And since you are in Florida and you are a Republican down there,

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I would I would understand why you would you would kind of hold them to a different standard.

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But like I said, if it came down to it, I think and I don't know why President-elect

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Trump did not push the Santas out there, although I guess this other guy,

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they have a history together.

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And, you know, so he I think he and he looks good on TV. So I guess maybe that

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was what the deal was. I don't know.

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But let's get back to the Harris thing. so one of the things i was talking about

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with you know the other guests and one of the big criticisms was the fact that

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she kept saying the basically she stayed within her talking points.

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And you know as a candidate you know myself i had the privilege of running for u.s in a twice,

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you know it was like you you're in a different audience and all that but the

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difference between me and her is that I wasn't going to get national coverage every day.

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So it wasn't like every time I turned on the TV, I was going to hear the same

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speech or people were going to hear the same speech for me because they weren't covering like that.

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But in her case, you know, so when she got asked, why do you,

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why do you do that? And she said that was discipline.

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What's your pushback on that? Yeah.

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You know, I felt like she probably did run what would be considered a disciplined

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campaign against an, you know, Trump in the past has run pretty undisciplined campaigns.

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And so I think the goal there was for her to be seen as a more disciplined candidate than Donald Trump.

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The problem for her became that Donald Trump's campaign actually turned out

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to be pretty disciplined.

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You know, they kept to their talking points. They, you know,

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some of the wild things that Trump would say on a daily basis,

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let's say he made on a weekly basis instead.

00:19:54.539 --> 00:19:59.599
And so I say that the people who supported Donald Trump supported him because

00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:02.839
they believe he will lead us through fire.

00:20:03.139 --> 00:20:08.359
And they were willing to overlook the fires he sets because they know that he'll lead them through.

00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:12.359
And so, you know, I know that that's not a sentiment for everyone,

00:20:12.499 --> 00:20:18.059
but that I think is kind of a good synopsis of people who supported Trump is

00:20:18.059 --> 00:20:20.479
that, hey, he got the job done.

00:20:20.999 --> 00:20:24.699
And yeah, he sets a couple of these fires, but he fixes them.

00:20:25.419 --> 00:20:32.119
And, you know, and Harris was dealt some bad cards, you know.

00:20:33.239 --> 00:20:37.079
Everybody can on her side can complain, oh, she only had 100 days.

00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:39.839
Well, if you had had a real primary, maybe she would have had,

00:20:39.939 --> 00:20:44.979
you know, an establishment, you know, a more established, you know,

00:20:45.139 --> 00:20:49.359
campaign and foundation to run. But, you know, she was the vice president.

00:20:49.619 --> 00:20:53.499
She went after it when he decided to get out and became the nominee.

00:20:53.539 --> 00:21:00.599
And then, you know, almost unexplicably, she she decided not to,

00:21:00.959 --> 00:21:04.099
you know, I wrote I wrote a sub stack that I said, you know,

00:21:04.159 --> 00:21:06.899
there's three phases of Kamala Harris early in the campaign.

00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:09.339
It's excitement, relief, and regret.

00:21:09.859 --> 00:21:13.159
And I wrote that during the excitement phase.

00:21:13.539 --> 00:21:20.819
And she never captured that excitement truly. Like, she could have rode that wave of momentum.

00:21:21.199 --> 00:21:25.559
But you remember, like, around Labor Day, conservatives really started talking

00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:27.279
about, like, why won't she sit down for an interview?

00:21:27.499 --> 00:21:33.219
Like, why is she hiding from the press? And so by not sitting down for an interview

00:21:33.219 --> 00:21:38.259
or not going before the press, she squandered that excitement phase.

00:21:38.479 --> 00:21:41.659
And quite frankly, this race was close enough. If she could have spread that

00:21:41.659 --> 00:21:47.039
excitement phase out probably just another 10 or 12 days, she probably wins this race.

00:21:47.779 --> 00:21:52.719
But I felt like she squandered the opportunity that was given to her because

00:21:52.719 --> 00:21:58.499
there was certainly a lot of excitement going into and out of the Democrat National

00:21:58.499 --> 00:22:00.759
Convention about her candidacy.

00:22:01.579 --> 00:22:02.599
And then she...

00:22:03.723 --> 00:22:08.163
Faltered, you know, and so now she was given a bad deck of cards,

00:22:08.223 --> 00:22:12.443
you know, because they kept saying things like, oh, the economy's in great shape.

00:22:12.443 --> 00:22:17.263
And, and while that from an economic standpoint, you know, if you have an economist

00:22:17.263 --> 00:22:21.703
talking to you, those numbers would say, oh, the economy's on a better place

00:22:21.703 --> 00:22:24.963
than, than what it was, you know, during the inflation years.

00:22:25.303 --> 00:22:29.983
But people, I mean, you know, people who, you know, you're going down to,

00:22:30.103 --> 00:22:36.443
to buy groceries and a box of cereal is now $7.99 or the family size is now

00:22:36.443 --> 00:22:41.923
$8.99 when it was $3.99 or $4.99 in the past.

00:22:42.303 --> 00:22:48.643
And so people are still, even though, quote, inflation was down, prices are not.

00:22:49.123 --> 00:22:55.583
And people and wages did not grow with inflation oftentimes like wages have

00:22:55.583 --> 00:22:57.043
grown with inflation in the past.

00:22:57.403 --> 00:23:01.243
And so she was facing kind of this double speak.

00:23:01.463 --> 00:23:06.143
And then in August, when I think she had trouble, when the Department of Homeland

00:23:06.143 --> 00:23:10.743
Security said that there's 300,000 children lost that are unaccounted for,

00:23:10.923 --> 00:23:14.223
unaccompanied, unaccounted for children in the United States.

00:23:14.223 --> 00:23:18.723
And they said that they didn't know if they were alive, sex traffic,

00:23:18.863 --> 00:23:21.343
enslaved, and she had no answer for it.

00:23:21.383 --> 00:23:23.983
And she didn't care to really talk about it.

00:23:24.183 --> 00:23:27.743
Right. And so instead of saying, hey, I recognize there was a problem.

00:23:28.203 --> 00:23:32.543
This is my plan to fix it. She just ignored it. And I think that hurt her.

00:23:33.283 --> 00:23:39.423
The DEI, I think, was another issue that Republicans grabbed hold of.

00:23:39.683 --> 00:23:45.363
And I think that people misunderstand DEI programs, affirmative action,

00:23:45.363 --> 00:23:49.763
we used to call it, and all those sorts of things where, you know,

00:23:50.263 --> 00:23:56.423
those programs are put in place to try to ensure that about 30% of the population,

00:23:56.883 --> 00:24:01.263
let's say, is treated fairly in things like higher age.

00:24:01.423 --> 00:24:07.863
And in jobs, you know, large corporations, while those programs are put in place

00:24:07.863 --> 00:24:12.963
to protect 30% of the population, they apply to 100% of the jobs.

00:24:13.103 --> 00:24:15.943
And so I think enough people reach the level where they're like,

00:24:15.943 --> 00:24:20.823
Like, hey, I'm in my mid-40s, I'm 50, and I just got passed over for promotion

00:24:20.823 --> 00:24:24.903
by a 28-year-old who is less qualified than me, but they check another box.

00:24:25.223 --> 00:24:29.443
And whether that's true or not, I think that was a sentiment that was felt out

00:24:29.443 --> 00:24:30.563
there among the electorate.

00:24:30.683 --> 00:24:33.523
And there were other things, I think, where Democrats went too far.

00:24:33.683 --> 00:24:38.963
Of course, you mentioned the open border, and there was really no recognition of Democrats.

00:24:39.561 --> 00:24:43.101
That number one was a problem, or number two, they had a plan to fix it.

00:24:43.601 --> 00:24:49.041
Another one, and I think this plays into the inflation, and in Florida, this was a big deal.

00:24:49.201 --> 00:24:53.661
I know in a lot of places, it's not a big deal. I think in very cold climates, it's a big deal.

00:24:53.861 --> 00:24:58.841
But when you start talking about things that haven't even really hit a few evacuated.

00:24:59.541 --> 00:25:03.281
Miami-Dade, Palm Beach, and Broward counties, which are Fort Lauderdale and

00:25:03.281 --> 00:25:07.481
West Palm Beach, those three counties in Florida are the population of Maryland.

00:25:07.881 --> 00:25:11.061
Maryland's the 10th most populated state in our country.

00:25:11.501 --> 00:25:17.081
And if you have to evacuate them with electric vehicles, they make it to Disney

00:25:17.081 --> 00:25:19.421
World in Orlando before they have to recharge.

00:25:20.001 --> 00:25:27.641
And there's just no mechanism in place for a mass evacuation of people in electric vehicles.

00:25:27.821 --> 00:25:32.221
And where I live in Sarasota, Florida, we have one of the best beaches in the

00:25:32.221 --> 00:25:36.841
world, Siesta Key, and it was evacuated and people left their electric vehicles.

00:25:37.221 --> 00:25:40.861
And when Siesta Key, in a lot of these places, the garage is flooded,

00:25:40.861 --> 00:25:44.021
but the houses did not because the houses are higher.

00:25:44.941 --> 00:25:49.381
But the electric vehicles are obviously in the garage. They caught on fire and

00:25:49.381 --> 00:25:54.081
we lost at least a dozen houses on Siesta Key because of electric vehicle fires.

00:25:54.081 --> 00:26:01.441
And so I think that they ignored, Democrats ignored a lot of practical application

00:26:01.441 --> 00:26:03.701
issues that Americans were feeling.

00:26:03.701 --> 00:26:06.501
And they either ignored it or didn't

00:26:06.501 --> 00:26:12.101
understand that their policies were negatively impacting real people.

00:26:13.281 --> 00:26:17.761
Yeah. And so, Jamie, you just broke news because that's the first I had heard about,

00:26:18.937 --> 00:26:23.557
that phenomenon about the electric cars and the flooding and all that kind of

00:26:23.557 --> 00:26:28.397
stuff, you know, and that kind of exacerbates what's going on in Florida.

00:26:28.397 --> 00:26:32.377
And we'll have to come back at another time to talk about that as far as the

00:26:32.377 --> 00:26:33.717
insurance and all that goes.

00:26:35.297 --> 00:26:39.997
So let me ask you this. On your website, you have a quote that says history

00:26:39.997 --> 00:26:45.337
repeats itself, but in such cunning disguise that we never detect a resemblance

00:26:45.337 --> 00:26:46.757
until the damage is done.

00:26:47.277 --> 00:26:52.597
So throwing that quote in the context of this question, should Americans be

00:26:52.597 --> 00:26:56.837
concerned about democracy in America?

00:26:57.497 --> 00:27:02.457
You know, I write on every election day I post on social media,

00:27:02.617 --> 00:27:06.917
whether it's a presidential year or in Florida, we have our gubernatorial elections

00:27:06.917 --> 00:27:08.777
in non-presidential years.

00:27:08.777 --> 00:27:14.497
I write that we are very fortunate as Americans that we are able to,

00:27:15.337 --> 00:27:19.397
number one, voice, have these discussions and voice our opinions through our votes.

00:27:19.557 --> 00:27:25.097
But truly, we are the ones, we're really the only people in the world who can

00:27:25.097 --> 00:27:29.137
tell our government and our government leaders that they've gone too far.

00:27:29.137 --> 00:27:31.817
And so you're on the left, I'm on the right.

00:27:32.057 --> 00:27:36.097
If you and I agree that our government has gone too far on anything,

00:27:36.597 --> 00:27:40.877
there's enough mechanisms in place that our leaders will listen to us.

00:27:41.497 --> 00:27:46.797
And, you know, that's so I truly do believe that.

00:27:46.997 --> 00:27:51.377
And so, no, I don't think that democracy is at stake. I don't think democracy

00:27:51.377 --> 00:27:58.077
was at stake if Harris won because of my foundational belief that American people

00:27:58.077 --> 00:27:59.377
are stronger than its government.

00:28:00.197 --> 00:28:06.217
And while we argue about our government, and it certainly makes for fun and interesting podcasts,

00:28:06.837 --> 00:28:11.417
it's, you know, when we decide, you know, I really think in this election,

00:28:11.897 --> 00:28:19.717
not the EI, but certainly the transgender issue went too far when you have boys in girls' bathrooms.

00:28:20.157 --> 00:28:23.457
Boys and girls sports and men and women's prisons and

00:28:23.457 --> 00:28:26.597
i think particularly on that issue america the american people

00:28:26.597 --> 00:28:29.437
said this has just gone too far

00:28:29.437 --> 00:28:32.937
this is this is not what we want and you

00:28:32.937 --> 00:28:36.177
know this is really the tail wagging the dog and you

00:28:36.177 --> 00:28:39.597
know well our system's based upon conducting the

00:28:39.597 --> 00:28:42.977
will of the majority while protecting the rights of the minority and

00:28:42.977 --> 00:28:46.017
while our history hasn't always been great

00:28:46.017 --> 00:28:50.077
in the aspect of protecting the rights of the minority we you

00:28:50.077 --> 00:28:53.977
know strive to live to that standard and this

00:28:53.977 --> 00:28:56.937
was certainly a case where you know certainly the minority

00:28:56.937 --> 00:29:02.037
was driving the policy against the majority and i think the majority stood up

00:29:02.037 --> 00:29:07.077
at this election and said you know this is this is too far well and that's that's

00:29:07.077 --> 00:29:11.777
going to be interesting dynamic because now there's actually a member of the

00:29:11.777 --> 00:29:15.057
transgender community in Congress, Nancy Mace.

00:29:15.237 --> 00:29:18.117
If we didn't know, Nancy Mace guaranteed that we knew.

00:29:19.406 --> 00:29:24.006
And what real quick, what's your take on how she's approached it?

00:29:25.166 --> 00:29:28.846
Before you ask, let me tell you how I would have done it. I think,

00:29:29.326 --> 00:29:35.106
well, I know I would have approached because of her history.

00:29:35.906 --> 00:29:41.766
I would have approached Representative McBride and, you know,

00:29:41.826 --> 00:29:48.626
and just had a conversation and, you know, let let them know my discomfort.

00:29:48.626 --> 00:29:51.386
Or my concerns and all that stuff.

00:29:51.686 --> 00:29:56.626
And then I think, you know, what represented McBride, what she said as far as

00:29:56.626 --> 00:30:01.886
she had already made arrangements because she kind of felt that there was going to be some pushback.

00:30:03.086 --> 00:30:06.366
I think that they could have settled that privately.

00:30:08.326 --> 00:30:13.986
And, you know, and everybody, you know, everybody keeps it pushing, as I would say.

00:30:15.446 --> 00:30:21.786
You know i guess based on what you just said as far as how the electorate responded,

00:30:22.426 --> 00:30:25.846
that that representative mace is is taking advantage

00:30:25.846 --> 00:30:28.606
of that i i just don't think that

00:30:28.606 --> 00:30:31.766
that was the right way to do it but but what you

00:30:31.766 --> 00:30:35.046
know you're you're a strategist what's what's your take yeah

00:30:35.046 --> 00:30:38.146
i mean if you know my advice for me and

00:30:38.146 --> 00:30:41.386
for representative mace may be two totally different things depending

00:30:41.386 --> 00:30:44.886
on what her goals were you know you know

00:30:44.886 --> 00:30:47.726
i think representative base used that moment to try

00:30:47.726 --> 00:30:50.846
to you know elevate her profile and she

00:30:50.846 --> 00:30:56.966
did that and so i'm like i said my my sub stack youtube those are all called

00:30:56.966 --> 00:31:02.246
reasonable arguments because i i agree with your some point we have to have

00:31:02.246 --> 00:31:06.866
more discussions like you and i are having today and the right and left And

00:31:06.866 --> 00:31:10.506
I think that's one reason why I want to appear on podcasts like yours,

00:31:10.526 --> 00:31:14.166
because when we have these discussions,

00:31:14.386 --> 00:31:19.506
I think it shows our politicians, it shows us that, hey, number one,

00:31:20.326 --> 00:31:24.906
people out in the real world are getting along, despite everybody arguing at

00:31:24.906 --> 00:31:26.106
a Thanksgiving dinner. Right.

00:31:26.386 --> 00:31:32.726
So but when we have we can disagree and have and still be professional about it.

00:31:32.806 --> 00:31:37.026
And I think that's what you're suggesting is that Representative Mays could

00:31:37.026 --> 00:31:40.406
have handled this in a more professional manner. And I agree with that.

00:31:41.524 --> 00:31:45.564
You know, if her goal was to fundraise and to elevate her profile,

00:31:46.064 --> 00:31:48.304
then that's she met that goal, probably.

00:31:48.624 --> 00:31:52.604
And that's unfortunate. That's an unfortunate part of our political environment,

00:31:52.824 --> 00:32:00.444
especially right now where extremism is is the on both sides is kind of how

00:32:00.444 --> 00:32:08.224
politicians raise money instead of being workers who get things done by trying to build consensus.

00:32:08.224 --> 00:32:11.924
You know, I've been around in politics long enough that, you know,

00:32:12.064 --> 00:32:18.004
it was the consensus builders who were able to make a great living in it.

00:32:18.184 --> 00:32:24.304
Right. Like and so now it's, you know, hey, can I write the meanest darn email

00:32:24.304 --> 00:32:29.284
to the extremist people so I can raise five dollars apiece?

00:32:29.544 --> 00:32:32.704
And, you know, that some of that I would go back.

00:32:32.904 --> 00:32:36.424
There's probably a podcast on its own would be about the Citizens United case.

00:32:36.424 --> 00:32:40.344
I'm one of the few Republicans who feel like that was a moment in history that

00:32:40.344 --> 00:32:44.724
I think historians will look at and say, okay, this division that we're facing

00:32:44.724 --> 00:32:46.904
right now, that was a pivotal U.S.

00:32:47.024 --> 00:32:51.524
Supreme Court case that kind of brought around this division.

00:32:51.524 --> 00:32:56.744
But I don't want to go on too big of a tangent on that unless you care to.

00:32:57.804 --> 00:33:06.584
But, you know, I think that Republicans with what I think the electorate said,

00:33:06.704 --> 00:33:07.504
which I've already stated,

00:33:08.024 --> 00:33:13.244
want to put a line in the sand and say, listen, if you're a man, use the men's room.

00:33:13.244 --> 00:33:22.024
You know, and, you know, we all know, you know, nobody looks at a one-hour-old

00:33:22.024 --> 00:33:25.344
baby and says, oh, look at my transgender baby.

00:33:25.804 --> 00:33:27.144
It's either a boy or a girl.

00:33:28.224 --> 00:33:33.984
And, you know, it is a good bit of environment that determines whether or not

00:33:33.984 --> 00:33:35.424
somebody wants to be transgendered.

00:33:35.464 --> 00:33:38.344
And I'm, listen, I think you're less what adults do.

00:33:38.504 --> 00:33:41.824
Like, I've never been somebody that's never been a hill I want to die on.

00:33:41.824 --> 00:33:46.684
And I'm a very libertarian when it comes to adults and their freedoms.

00:33:46.964 --> 00:33:50.864
Now, I have advocated that all things adults should be 21, you know,

00:33:51.244 --> 00:33:54.524
which would include voting and being drafted, right?

00:33:54.724 --> 00:34:00.424
But if you're going to have drinking at 21, everything should be 21 or everything should be 18.

00:34:00.804 --> 00:34:04.844
You know, buying a gun should be 21. But, you know, we say you're an adult at

00:34:04.844 --> 00:34:09.144
18, so you should be able to do everything at 18, not gradually become an adult.

00:34:09.344 --> 00:34:11.024
Anyway, that's another tangent.

00:34:12.864 --> 00:34:16.664
But I think that you're, you know, representative base, you know,

00:34:17.543 --> 00:34:22.303
did what I think her supporters wanted her to do, which was make a public stand

00:34:22.303 --> 00:34:27.243
in the halls of Congress and say men should use men's room and women should

00:34:27.243 --> 00:34:29.023
use women's rooms. Yeah.

00:34:29.863 --> 00:34:35.923
So let me get let me get back to the gist of why I asked that particular question

00:34:35.923 --> 00:34:40.523
about democracy, because you mentioned the word extremism.

00:34:40.523 --> 00:34:46.723
And I think one of the big concerns I had and that and the first time that that

00:34:46.723 --> 00:34:50.123
Donald Trump was president, whenever I went to D.C., I said,

00:34:50.283 --> 00:34:51.943
take me to the National Archive first.

00:34:52.323 --> 00:34:55.503
And they would say, why? So I just want to make sure the Constitution is still

00:34:55.503 --> 00:35:02.203
on display because I've never seen anything in his leadership style that makes

00:35:02.203 --> 00:35:04.443
me feel comfortable that he respects the Constitution.

00:35:04.443 --> 00:35:10.883
And I listened to a lot of his rhetoric and a lot of his supporters rhetoric

00:35:10.883 --> 00:35:14.043
during the campaign season this time.

00:35:14.443 --> 00:35:21.043
And, you know, just just some of the words that they used and phrases and all that.

00:35:21.523 --> 00:35:26.903
You know, that's that's why all this talk is going on about authoritarianism

00:35:26.903 --> 00:35:30.723
and fascism and all that. And I get it that the president of the United States

00:35:30.723 --> 00:35:34.603
is a strong executive, but there's limits to that.

00:35:35.383 --> 00:35:43.183
And he's and he's he's he's come across as he wants to push those limits as far as he can.

00:35:43.463 --> 00:35:49.103
That's why I asked the question about democracy. I'm hopeful,

00:35:49.263 --> 00:35:54.703
too, that the people will have the final say.

00:35:55.163 --> 00:36:03.423
But I'm also a student of history and I've also observed what's going on in

00:36:03.423 --> 00:36:04.783
other parts of the world.

00:36:05.163 --> 00:36:09.883
And the people's best intentions sometimes fall short. So that's why I asked

00:36:09.883 --> 00:36:15.423
that question. But you think that the American people are going to be more resilient

00:36:15.423 --> 00:36:19.083
and we'll be able to keep this democracy.

00:36:20.388 --> 00:36:24.088
Well, we have elections every two years that impact the president.

00:36:24.568 --> 00:36:30.688
And I don't want to say that, you know, oh, Donald Trump can't get anything done.

00:36:30.848 --> 00:36:37.008
But when Donald Trump is in his last term as president and, you know,

00:36:37.188 --> 00:36:40.828
we know that Congress is going to be separated by about the U.S.

00:36:40.888 --> 00:36:43.208
House is going to be separated by about four votes.

00:36:43.728 --> 00:36:45.888
There's almost I haven't really double

00:36:45.888 --> 00:36:49.588
checked it, but it's about the same majority, four votes in the U.S.

00:36:49.628 --> 00:36:53.028
Senate. although there's you know a quarter of the people in the u.s senate

00:36:53.028 --> 00:36:57.228
and so you know we're going to,

00:36:57.748 --> 00:37:01.328
you know donald trump's going to try to move as fast as he can and you know

00:37:01.328 --> 00:37:05.348
there will be bumps along the road and i think i think he has to be very strategic

00:37:05.348 --> 00:37:12.428
about what he tackles publicly you know and how he tackles it because when his

00:37:12.428 --> 00:37:15.608
team's looking at oh well he's we president for four years.

00:37:16.368 --> 00:37:21.308
This window is only two years long because if, of course, if Democrats take

00:37:21.308 --> 00:37:24.868
the House and that's normally what happens is that, you know,

00:37:24.988 --> 00:37:27.488
Americans say, oh, you know, we've had enough of the top,

00:37:27.708 --> 00:37:31.108
you know, and we're going to switch, you know, we're going to have a little

00:37:31.108 --> 00:37:35.248
bit more balanced government by, you know, having, you know,

00:37:35.328 --> 00:37:37.188
more Democrats in the U.S. House in the.

00:37:41.588 --> 00:37:46.168
So I think he has a very short period of time to try to get,

00:37:46.408 --> 00:37:49.608
like we talked about all the rhetoric of the campaign.

00:37:51.668 --> 00:37:55.008
There's a lot that he wants to do, but he has a very short time to do it.

00:37:55.088 --> 00:37:58.168
He's going to have to decide what are his priorities.

00:37:59.248 --> 00:38:04.668
Is the priority to eliminate the Department of Education or is the priority

00:38:04.668 --> 00:38:10.308
to round up 10 million illegal immigrants and deport them?

00:38:10.308 --> 00:38:15.788
My guess is, you know, the 10 million is probably a huge lift,

00:38:15.928 --> 00:38:19.008
you know, and something that Americans will not.

00:38:19.468 --> 00:38:25.248
The reality of that will be greater than the political will to do it.

00:38:28.068 --> 00:38:32.688
And not that there aren't Americans who want it done, but I just think when

00:38:32.688 --> 00:38:34.628
people start seeing people in their community,

00:38:34.888 --> 00:38:42.668
the owners of their restaurants, their friends, kids, the kids who are friends

00:38:42.668 --> 00:38:45.248
of their kids being deported.

00:38:45.468 --> 00:38:49.528
And I think attitudes on that particular issue can change very quickly.

00:38:50.708 --> 00:38:54.528
So he has to decide what his priorities are and what,

00:38:54.648 --> 00:38:59.388
number one, he can accomplish in a very short period of time and how much political

00:38:59.388 --> 00:39:07.168
capital he's willing to utilize to get those things done. Yeah.

00:39:07.468 --> 00:39:12.308
So there's a couple more questions I want to ask you why I got you.

00:39:13.488 --> 00:39:22.208
But one just came to mind as I'm sitting up here thinking about the African-American

00:39:22.208 --> 00:39:23.888
community, the community I'm from.

00:39:24.728 --> 00:39:26.568
And a lot of people.

00:39:28.283 --> 00:39:31.563
We're very dismayed with the results.

00:39:32.283 --> 00:39:39.343
And, you know, there was some idiotic debate about whether Kamala Harris was black or not.

00:39:39.443 --> 00:39:42.283
And on this podcast, she's black.

00:39:42.283 --> 00:39:46.003
So we'll just, we'll keep that moving.

00:39:46.003 --> 00:39:51.003
But, but seriously though, I think, you know, one, there's, there's a major

00:39:51.003 --> 00:39:57.563
concern because you mentioned about the department of education and, and,

00:39:58.283 --> 00:40:06.143
I think there's a major concern about how the conservative movement views black people.

00:40:06.523 --> 00:40:13.403
We talked about DEI and how people misinterpreted that, and that was your words, not mine.

00:40:13.563 --> 00:40:16.623
But what would you say,

00:40:16.623 --> 00:40:21.743
this is your moment to speak to black folks,

00:40:21.743 --> 00:40:31.283
What would you say to them to assuage their fears about this administration

00:40:31.283 --> 00:40:33.383
and the conservative movement?

00:40:34.043 --> 00:40:40.163
Yeah, I think that, you know, I think we all want I think we all want the same things.

00:40:40.243 --> 00:40:45.023
We want a good economy. We want safe streets and we want good education for our children.

00:40:45.303 --> 00:40:50.323
I mean, I think those are probably three major things that everybody wants.

00:40:50.323 --> 00:40:54.883
And, you know, we may see things a little differently on how to get there.

00:40:55.243 --> 00:41:02.203
And, you know, I'm I believe, you know, when it comes to specifically education,

00:41:02.563 --> 00:41:04.663
that the money should follow the child.

00:41:05.103 --> 00:41:09.103
You know, we have we have, you know, in Florida, we have 67 counties.

00:41:09.123 --> 00:41:14.223
We have 67 administrations to administer our local schools.

00:41:14.763 --> 00:41:19.663
And I'm not saying that that should be scrapped or be taken over by the state

00:41:19.663 --> 00:41:25.223
or federal governments, but all these administrations, when you start talking about that,

00:41:25.483 --> 00:41:30.303
you start talking about school buses, which I think are still very much needed

00:41:30.303 --> 00:41:31.723
in some areas of our country.

00:41:31.723 --> 00:41:37.623
But some areas, you know, in Sarasota, there's not very many school buses or

00:41:37.623 --> 00:41:39.203
kids on school buses, you know.

00:41:39.343 --> 00:41:47.483
So it seems like a redundancy of tax dollars when you have a school bus and a public transit bus.

00:41:47.683 --> 00:41:51.283
Right. And I think there are communities who are trying to rectify those things

00:41:51.283 --> 00:41:55.803
to save tax dollars. But, you know, but when you start looking at the amount

00:41:55.803 --> 00:41:59.663
of money that is spent on education and the amount of money that is spent in

00:41:59.663 --> 00:42:01.883
the classroom, I think we can do better.

00:42:02.303 --> 00:42:06.683
And one way we can do better is saying, hey, listen, the money is going to follow the child.

00:42:06.863 --> 00:42:10.663
So if you, you know, I don't believe in religion in our public schools,

00:42:10.663 --> 00:42:14.383
but if you're a religious person and you want to send your child to a religious

00:42:14.383 --> 00:42:17.223
school, the money, the tax dollars should follow the child.

00:42:17.223 --> 00:42:23.603
If we're committed as Americans to educating children, which I think we are,

00:42:23.723 --> 00:42:26.663
I think we agree on, that, you know.

00:42:27.716 --> 00:42:31.976
That should be a parental decision. And I know that some disagree with that

00:42:31.976 --> 00:42:35.156
and think that the government can better make those decisions.

00:42:35.556 --> 00:42:41.136
But, you know, I'm a parent myself. My children are outgrown. I have grandchildren.

00:42:41.436 --> 00:42:45.456
But I feel like parents should have that choice.

00:42:45.696 --> 00:42:51.536
And Florida is kind of the proving ground for that. And it's worked out really

00:42:51.536 --> 00:42:56.296
well. And I think that it's worked out, maybe not perfectly,

00:42:56.536 --> 00:42:59.516
but I think it has worked out well in the African-American community.

00:42:59.656 --> 00:43:05.016
We're very, very new in the phase. I think this year was maybe the first year

00:43:05.016 --> 00:43:06.656
where truly money followed the child.

00:43:06.896 --> 00:43:10.496
So it's still, you know, a work in progress.

00:43:10.496 --> 00:43:17.196
But, you know, my encouragement is that, you know, I don't like to separate

00:43:17.196 --> 00:43:22.876
our communities and say, hey, we're going to do this or that for a community.

00:43:23.376 --> 00:43:30.316
I've written my very first letter to the editor in the 1980s was about racism

00:43:30.316 --> 00:43:32.136
and affirmative action.

00:43:32.236 --> 00:43:35.836
And at that time, college admissions was the big deal.

00:43:35.996 --> 00:43:41.676
Right. And so what I said then and I agree with now is that racism is going

00:43:41.676 --> 00:43:46.316
to continue to exist as long as our government continues to separate and ask

00:43:46.316 --> 00:43:49.696
us about our race and make financial decisions based upon it.

00:43:50.196 --> 00:43:52.976
And, you know, I don't believe that the government.

00:43:53.940 --> 00:43:58.240
Should be asking about our race. And I don't think that the government should

00:43:58.240 --> 00:44:01.600
be making any decisions based upon race.

00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:05.480
You know, whether that's a small business loan or college admissions,

00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:08.160
you know, in Florida, for instance, you know,

00:44:08.720 --> 00:44:16.420
we have a rule or law in Florida that a certain percentage of top performers

00:44:16.420 --> 00:44:19.520
in every high school get to go to college.

00:44:19.520 --> 00:44:23.560
They must get accepted to college, right? And so instead of saying,

00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:29.140
oh, well, we're going to have this affirmative action rule, we recognize the

00:44:29.140 --> 00:44:31.740
fact that, you know, some communities.

00:44:32.300 --> 00:44:36.060
You know, a rural community, for instance, may not have as much money that they

00:44:36.060 --> 00:44:38.280
put into education as Sarasota.

00:44:38.620 --> 00:44:43.480
And so, you know, in Sarasota, we vote to tax ourselves a penny,

00:44:43.660 --> 00:44:49.620
a penny sales tax to put directly into K through 12 education on top of what

00:44:49.620 --> 00:44:51.840
we get through other means, right?

00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:56.800
So we do have more money here in Sarasota than a lot of communities.

00:44:57.300 --> 00:45:02.920
But, you know, in Florida, I think that's a fair way to look at, hey, listen,

00:45:03.340 --> 00:45:06.880
you know, over in Wachula, for instance, a little rural community,

00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:10.060
you might not have the same level

00:45:10.060 --> 00:45:14.000
of, be able to attract the same level of teachers as Sarasota, Florida.

00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:21.000
And so, so we feel like that, I feel like that balances that a little bit better than just saying,

00:45:21.240 --> 00:45:24.440
oh, we're going to, you know, we have 18% African-Americans,

00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:29.900
we're going to have 18% African-American admissions to college.

00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:34.820
Because I think that, quite frankly, takes away from, you know,

00:45:35.060 --> 00:45:41.360
what if, what if 22% are the smartest of the bunch, right? So you're now saying

00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:44.420
4% of African Americans are denied entry.

00:45:44.580 --> 00:45:50.160
And I just feel like as long as our government is making those decisions based upon race, the,

00:45:51.078 --> 00:45:53.758
you know, we're going to continue to face some of these problems.

00:45:54.778 --> 00:45:59.798
Well, Jamie, you passed the conservative position test. That is a true conservative position.

00:46:01.318 --> 00:46:04.418
So I appreciate you doing that.

00:46:04.718 --> 00:46:10.178
Let's close it out with, I'm going to combine the two questions and it might

00:46:10.178 --> 00:46:13.098
be a little awkward, but I think you can handle it.

00:46:13.858 --> 00:46:18.338
The first part is what motivates voters more fear or hope.

00:46:18.698 --> 00:46:26.658
And tying into the next question, what is the future of politics in America, as you see it? Oh, okay.

00:46:27.618 --> 00:46:35.858
All right. I think the difference between fear and hope depends upon the dynamics of the race.

00:46:35.978 --> 00:46:39.178
I always say elections are about who is running against to him.

00:46:39.898 --> 00:46:46.818
And, you know, you have a narrative that is built around each candidate.

00:46:47.018 --> 00:46:53.738
And so, you know, Barack Obama built his narrative around hope and it worked.

00:46:53.918 --> 00:46:59.138
You know, it was a moment in time where people were very accepting of that message.

00:46:59.318 --> 00:47:01.438
His opponent was, you know.

00:47:02.240 --> 00:47:07.160
Tone deaf with drill, baby, drill. You know, it was kind of this weird thing.

00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:10.620
It was like, I'm, you know, I'll take hope over, you know, drill,

00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:14.000
baby, drill any day of the week, take the candidates out of it. Right.

00:47:14.440 --> 00:47:19.200
And it's the, it's very similar with, you know, make America great again.

00:47:19.520 --> 00:47:22.500
You know, that's like, that's a great slogan.

00:47:23.040 --> 00:47:27.400
Take it, take it, you know, take the man out of, out of the equation and we can all agree,

00:47:27.600 --> 00:47:31.720
Oh, let's make America great or make it greater or less any number of those

00:47:31.720 --> 00:47:36.740
words right and so i guess the fact that he uses again means that you're saying

00:47:36.740 --> 00:47:44.160
it's not now but whatever you know so and in harris's case,

00:47:44.700 --> 00:47:51.400
you know i think fear did work with her narrative because she failed like i

00:47:51.400 --> 00:47:55.300
said at the beginning of the show she failed to say who she was what she was

00:47:55.300 --> 00:47:57.480
going to do and why she was qualified to do it.

00:47:57.800 --> 00:48:02.000
You know, she kind of said, oh, I'm vice president. So I'm qualified.

00:48:02.240 --> 00:48:06.700
And, you know, I think Americans, they may not say it, but we also know that

00:48:06.700 --> 00:48:09.560
we don't know a whole lot of vice presidents who didn't become president.

00:48:09.780 --> 00:48:13.820
And so we don't know if they're qualified or not. And so just being vice president

00:48:13.820 --> 00:48:18.620
means you may get the job, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're qualified for the job.

00:48:18.760 --> 00:48:21.160
And I don't know that she ever made that jump.

00:48:21.780 --> 00:48:24.480
And so I think the fear tactics did work on her.

00:48:24.680 --> 00:48:30.380
So I, you know, I tell people I've never run, I've run hundreds of campaigns, political campaigns.

00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:35.300
And I say, I've never run a negative campaign. I have clarified an opponent or two.

00:48:35.740 --> 00:48:43.320
And I think, but it's, I say that to be funny, but, but I mean it true.

00:48:43.520 --> 00:48:45.480
Like I, I don't lie about people.

00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:49.600
I don't go dig through garbage cans, but if somebody's out there saying,

00:48:49.600 --> 00:48:56.740
hey, I'm pro-gun, and they've done anti-gun stuff, well, then I'm going to clarify that, right? And so.

00:48:57.956 --> 00:49:03.016
And I think that she had a problem, you know, I think she had a lot of problems.

00:49:03.176 --> 00:49:07.276
You know, when you look at her campaign, you start getting into the nitty gritty of it.

00:49:07.536 --> 00:49:10.896
There weren't a whole lot of Harris people involved with her campaign.

00:49:11.276 --> 00:49:15.456
There were Obama people, there were Biden people, and then you throw in a few Harris people.

00:49:15.756 --> 00:49:21.316
And so the dynamics of that is, it's hard to balance because you just,

00:49:21.436 --> 00:49:24.856
you end up with these little warring factions within the thing,

00:49:24.976 --> 00:49:28.216
you know, where if you look at the Trump campaign, they were Trump people.

00:49:29.016 --> 00:49:33.156
Like there's, there's no denying that if you were on the Trump campaign, you were for Trump.

00:49:33.376 --> 00:49:37.336
And, and so, you know, I think that was one of the, one of like,

00:49:37.396 --> 00:49:41.196
if you're going to do a case study on these two campaigns, I don't think that

00:49:41.196 --> 00:49:47.416
that could not be part of a chapter in that case study of just how the staffs were built.

00:49:47.756 --> 00:49:51.696
You know, one was built around the candidate and the other one was built more

00:49:51.696 --> 00:49:56.776
around maybe ideology, but it really, they weren't really Harris people.

00:49:57.196 --> 00:50:00.736
I think they all wanted her to win. I think they all did their best work.

00:50:00.976 --> 00:50:06.396
You know, like, I'm not criticizing them that way. It's just that she did not

00:50:06.396 --> 00:50:14.216
have Joe Biden's 40 years of working in Washington to build a foundation for our government,

00:50:14.356 --> 00:50:19.216
you know, and so she needed to rely on previous administrations,

00:50:19.956 --> 00:50:21.856
and I think that may have been part of her downfall.

00:50:21.956 --> 00:50:25.796
Now, how does that work towards the future? I mean, certainly these podcasts

00:50:25.796 --> 00:50:28.236
made a difference in the election.

00:50:28.616 --> 00:50:34.356
And, you know, and I think you're going to see more and more people get more

00:50:34.356 --> 00:50:36.436
and more of their information from,

00:50:36.436 --> 00:50:41.096
you know, people like yourself who are taking the time and the effort.

00:50:41.576 --> 00:50:46.376
And, you know, I appeared on about 50 different podcasts from people.

00:50:47.441 --> 00:50:54.641
End of July through the election. And almost to, I bet you 47 of them make no

00:50:54.641 --> 00:50:58.261
money, you know, like, you know, they're, they're doing it because they love

00:50:58.261 --> 00:50:59.721
the country. They love the discussion.

00:50:59.901 --> 00:51:02.821
They love, you know, having their voice heard.

00:51:03.081 --> 00:51:09.601
And, and so, you know, and, and that's why I, I do it is I do it because I love our country.

00:51:09.601 --> 00:51:13.281
I'm willing to come on more, you know, more progressive podcast,

00:51:13.561 --> 00:51:17.381
you know, just because I feel like, you know, at some point,

00:51:17.741 --> 00:51:19.801
you know, I'm not on Fox News.

00:51:19.981 --> 00:51:22.501
I'm not in the Trump administration. I'm, you know, so what can I,

00:51:22.601 --> 00:51:27.101
you know, what can I do to help, you know, bring my expertise and hopefully,

00:51:27.381 --> 00:51:30.821
you know, as much as your audience may have disagreed with some of the things

00:51:30.821 --> 00:51:32.261
I had to say, I hope that they.

00:51:32.781 --> 00:51:36.321
Come away with, hey, listen, this is a guy who,

00:51:36.501 --> 00:51:39.461
you know, we could sit down and have lunch with and discuss some real

00:51:39.461 --> 00:51:42.861
issues and maybe come to some real conclusions on

00:51:42.861 --> 00:51:45.741
on the best way to move forward and so i

00:51:45.741 --> 00:51:48.801
really want to thank you for having me on and and hopefully

00:51:48.801 --> 00:51:51.881
i didn't dodge your question no no you didn't

00:51:51.881 --> 00:51:55.061
and and with the time constraints even

00:51:55.061 --> 00:51:58.241
if i if you did dodge it i was going to let you slide because

00:51:58.241 --> 00:52:03.201
um i've taken more of your time than i than i promised you but But I want to

00:52:03.201 --> 00:52:11.041
double down on that sentiment because the only way that we can guarantee that

00:52:11.041 --> 00:52:16.481
democracy is going to not only stay but thrive is that we have discussions.

00:52:16.941 --> 00:52:22.261
People ask me all the time, why don't you get back into running?

00:52:22.621 --> 00:52:28.001
And I tell them, you know, the last election I ran was in 2008.

00:52:28.561 --> 00:52:32.701
So that's almost 20 years. You know, it's not like you're going to ask somebody

00:52:32.701 --> 00:52:37.281
that's in a sports, a famous athlete that you like 20 years removed from the game.

00:52:37.481 --> 00:52:39.981
You we need you to come back and play. You know what I'm saying?

00:52:40.381 --> 00:52:44.161
It's just it's it's very similar. It is a different thing.

00:52:45.581 --> 00:52:50.601
And the politics that I was involved in was more like the discussions where

00:52:50.601 --> 00:52:55.241
we were having. And I don't have time to get into a real war story on the air.

00:52:55.361 --> 00:53:01.541
But, you know, so it's a it's a different feel. And so the gist of what I'm

00:53:01.541 --> 00:53:06.041
trying to do is to get us back to having these kind of discussions.

00:53:06.381 --> 00:53:13.201
And we don't have to agree, but we don't have to be confrontational about it.

00:53:13.361 --> 00:53:20.041
And so, Jamie, I really thank you for coming on and taking the time to do this.

00:53:20.481 --> 00:53:25.161
And hopefully, I hope you understand that once you've come on my podcast,

00:53:25.161 --> 00:53:28.261
you have an open invitation to come back. So if you say, you know,

00:53:28.341 --> 00:53:30.641
your hair is on fire, look, I need to talk about this.

00:53:31.061 --> 00:53:34.401
You know, we'll get you on and we'll talk about it. So, Jamie,

00:53:34.541 --> 00:53:35.561
thank you for doing this.

00:53:35.741 --> 00:53:40.021
And happy holiday season to you. Merry Christmas and all that.

00:53:40.601 --> 00:53:43.821
It's my honor. Thank you. All right, guys. And we're going to catch you.

00:53:43.760 --> 00:54:02.320
Music.

00:54:03.549 --> 00:54:11.349
All right. And we are back. So I hope y'all got some out of that discussion.

00:54:11.629 --> 00:54:16.849
Jamie, again, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate Jamie Miller.

00:54:17.709 --> 00:54:21.429
And I forgot we got so caught up in the thing.

00:54:21.569 --> 00:54:28.309
I forgot to give him a chance to promote, you know, what he does and all that kind of stuff.

00:54:29.309 --> 00:54:37.969
But, you know, like I said in the intro, you can go to www.reasonablearguments.com,

00:54:39.489 --> 00:54:48.069
and read his stuff and kind of understand why I reached out to him to come on.

00:54:48.449 --> 00:54:53.109
And, you know, all this contact information and all that stuff is on there.

00:54:53.549 --> 00:54:57.369
So I apologize, Jamie, for not giving you that. I usually give people,

00:54:57.689 --> 00:54:59.989
guests, the opportunity to,

00:54:59.989 --> 00:55:05.269
you know, pub whatever they're doing and how people can reach out to them.

00:55:05.429 --> 00:55:09.849
So like I said in the interview, next time you come back on,

00:55:09.989 --> 00:55:11.789
we'll make sure we do that.

00:55:12.629 --> 00:55:17.809
A couple of things from that that we really didn't get into,

00:55:18.149 --> 00:55:25.549
but, well, we got into it with one, with the Secretary of Defense appointment and all that.

00:55:27.309 --> 00:55:35.569
You know, I think that we as a community, when I say community,

00:55:35.569 --> 00:55:38.729
I'm talking about black folks, African Americans.

00:55:40.109 --> 00:55:43.269
And I do want to make that clear, too.

00:55:43.489 --> 00:55:48.049
You'll hear me interchange that because that's me.

00:55:48.209 --> 00:55:52.029
I know some people are trying to, for whatever reason, separate that.

00:55:52.289 --> 00:55:58.329
And I'll probably mention that several times until people come to their senses

00:55:58.329 --> 00:56:05.249
that black and black American, African American are interchangeable.

00:56:05.409 --> 00:56:06.869
They're not unique.

00:56:07.249 --> 00:56:08.509
They're not separate.

00:56:10.269 --> 00:56:16.949
And if you listen to my last podcast, I basically kind of explained where my mindset is on that.

00:56:18.269 --> 00:56:25.409
But we have a unique opportunity to decide how this thing is going to go.

00:56:26.269 --> 00:56:31.109
And I've noticed now that some of the emotion has gone away,

00:56:31.109 --> 00:56:37.989
that people are talking about collaborating again, people are talking about engaging again.

00:56:39.369 --> 00:56:43.989
And, you know, those of us who are committed to the work, you know,

00:56:44.129 --> 00:56:49.069
we have to take our losses as well as our victories and keep it moving.

00:56:51.016 --> 00:57:01.116
So I'm encouraged because we're at a point now where we cannot go back.

00:57:02.076 --> 00:57:09.176
You know, that wasn't just a campaign slogan for Vice President Harris. That is a mindset.

00:57:09.556 --> 00:57:15.956
We can't go back. We've got to keep moving America forward.

00:57:16.156 --> 00:57:22.756
We can't recess. And so we need to have real discussions about how that looks,

00:57:22.776 --> 00:57:29.436
and we need to have people having calm,

00:57:29.616 --> 00:57:34.816
rational interactions to move this thing forward.

00:57:35.096 --> 00:57:45.036
And we can't really get distracted by, you know, sound bites and tweets and all this other stuff.

00:57:46.676 --> 00:57:55.556
So we have to we have to engage. You know, it's easy to take your ball and go home.

00:57:56.336 --> 00:58:01.336
If the game is not going the way you want, you can do that when you're a child.

00:58:01.336 --> 00:58:04.736
But as adults, we can't do that.

00:58:04.996 --> 00:58:10.876
We've got to continue to be engaged. We've got to continue to fight.

00:58:10.876 --> 00:58:13.216
We've got to continue to raise our voices.

00:58:14.496 --> 00:58:22.316
And, you know, and we've got to be willing to stand in places where we're not

00:58:22.316 --> 00:58:27.296
comfortable and let people know how we feel.

00:58:28.236 --> 00:58:34.856
In other words, in the old colloquialism, you know, when I get hurt, I say ouch.

00:58:35.776 --> 00:58:40.636
And as long as we have the right to do that, we should do that.

00:58:41.036 --> 00:58:51.936
I think what you saw on the other side was that they were able to effectively connect with pain.

00:58:53.356 --> 00:58:56.536
And when I say pain means struggles.

00:58:57.296 --> 00:59:05.496
Meaning economic struggles, meaning worries about day-to-day stuff.

00:59:06.796 --> 00:59:07.296
And,

00:59:08.706 --> 00:59:15.666
It doesn't mean that we acquiesce to fear and anger, but we do need to say ouch when we hurt.

00:59:17.406 --> 00:59:25.206
And, you know, I don't know if you can effectively boycott anything anymore. Doesn't hurt to try.

00:59:26.846 --> 00:59:32.186
But there's got to be some way that we let these companies, for example,

00:59:32.406 --> 00:59:37.946
that are now saying, oh, it's, you know, because of the backlash. Right.

00:59:38.526 --> 00:59:41.486
We're going to renege all the promises we made in 2020.

00:59:42.806 --> 00:59:45.866
And we've got to say, ouch to that.

00:59:45.966 --> 00:59:52.866
And we've got to remind people that if you want to make money in America, you need to be diverse.

00:59:53.646 --> 00:59:57.306
You need to be diverse in your office. You need to be diverse in your marketing.

00:59:57.306 --> 01:00:00.146
You need to be diverse in your brand.

01:00:01.126 --> 01:00:06.226
You can't go from one extreme to the other. Are we going to be blackety black?

01:00:06.426 --> 01:00:09.546
And then four years later, we're going to scrap all that.

01:00:10.286 --> 01:00:13.346
We have the right to say, ouch, when that happens.

01:00:15.304 --> 01:00:20.924
You know, we cannot get caught up in extremism and emotionalism.

01:00:21.064 --> 01:00:25.144
We have to be rational and we have to be thoughtful.

01:00:25.844 --> 01:00:29.384
The reason why the civil rights movement was effective because,

01:00:30.004 --> 01:00:34.384
yeah, it stirred up some emotions as far as images and all that.

01:00:34.524 --> 01:00:41.704
But it was a rational argument. It was a rational argument based on the fact

01:00:41.704 --> 01:00:48.504
that the majority of the population is Christian and that Christian principle

01:00:48.504 --> 01:00:53.544
that if we don't work together as brothers, then we'll perish together as fools.

01:00:54.644 --> 01:01:00.024
Right. I mean, you know, again, if you're not Christian.

01:01:00.684 --> 01:01:07.944
You understand the rationality. Either we work together or we lose together.

01:01:08.724 --> 01:01:15.024
Bottom line. Whether you played sports or not, you get that concept. Right?

01:01:16.424 --> 01:01:25.404
So, especially in a team sport. So, you know, I'm not going to try to belabor anything today.

01:01:26.244 --> 01:01:29.744
I just want us, especially black

01:01:29.744 --> 01:01:34.424
people, especially African-American people, I want you to be engaged.

01:01:34.664 --> 01:01:41.644
And this may sound like a rerun, but that's going to be a mantra because even

01:01:41.644 --> 01:01:46.184
if you voted, I need you to be more engaged. Right?

01:01:46.984 --> 01:01:50.584
And I'm not saying that you got to jump on every issue and all that.

01:01:50.724 --> 01:01:54.284
And I'm definitely not saying that you need to be a political junkie like me.

01:01:54.444 --> 01:02:02.644
I've made that appeal many, many times. But what I will say is that we need

01:02:02.644 --> 01:02:05.644
to understand what is going on.

01:02:05.764 --> 01:02:13.344
We need to understand government enough to understand its impact and how we can change that.

01:02:14.881 --> 01:02:21.101
And last episode, I stressed voting, but there's other ways to be engaged in between elections.

01:02:22.141 --> 01:02:29.001
One of the most important things is knowledge. You got to know what's going

01:02:29.001 --> 01:02:30.561
on before you can address it.

01:02:31.061 --> 01:02:38.281
And, you know, in the newscast, it takes time, but things are happening, right?

01:02:39.081 --> 01:02:42.921
You've heard about what was going on in Memphis. You've heard what's going on

01:02:42.921 --> 01:02:46.021
in Rikers Island. And you've heard what's going on in Fulton County Jail.

01:02:46.461 --> 01:02:49.921
That's because people got engaged and said, we can do better.

01:02:50.761 --> 01:02:58.781
And even though, you know, some people got elected in spite of all those concerns

01:02:58.781 --> 01:03:03.341
that may have turned a blind eye or may not have effectively dealt with those

01:03:03.341 --> 01:03:04.741
situations that I mentioned,

01:03:05.061 --> 01:03:07.581
you still have a voice.

01:03:08.721 --> 01:03:15.001
And if you feel that the people that are in positions now with the problem can

01:03:15.001 --> 01:03:18.121
be the people to solve them, you vote accordingly.

01:03:20.361 --> 01:03:29.941
But again, the engagement is an intellectual exercise as much as a physical one.

01:03:30.341 --> 01:03:33.081
We've got to pay attention to what's going on.

01:03:33.981 --> 01:03:41.401
Even if you feel that you can't do anything, which I totally disagree, you need to know.

01:03:41.901 --> 01:03:44.701
You need to pay attention to what's going on in your school board.

01:03:44.761 --> 01:03:47.121
You need to pay attention to what's going on at your church.

01:03:47.461 --> 01:03:49.621
You need to pay attention to what's going on in your neighborhood.

01:03:49.961 --> 01:03:52.161
You need to pay attention to what's going on at your job.

01:03:52.701 --> 01:03:55.661
You need to pay attention to what's going on in your city, state,

01:03:55.861 --> 01:03:57.961
county, and federal government.

01:03:58.801 --> 01:04:03.741
Because the decisions that those elected officials make will impact you.

01:04:04.401 --> 01:04:10.201
Even if it's not on the nightly news every day, doesn't mean that it's not happening.

01:04:10.821 --> 01:04:16.341
I'm in Atlanta, haven't heard any recent coverage about Cop City,

01:04:16.541 --> 01:04:18.761
the training center that they want to build.

01:04:20.427 --> 01:04:26.587
Still an issue. So you have to stay focused.

01:04:27.407 --> 01:04:34.267
And I know it's hard because we live lives every day. I have a real job. You have a real job.

01:04:35.007 --> 01:04:37.627
If you're retired, you have a lifestyle.

01:04:39.767 --> 01:04:45.507
But it's our civic duty is what's going to hold this thing together.

01:04:46.287 --> 01:04:56.187
If we don't engage, then people will take it, take our silence as approval and do what they want to do.

01:04:56.787 --> 01:05:00.847
And we don't have the luxury for that. We have to fight.

01:05:01.847 --> 01:05:05.207
And it doesn't have to be confrontational.

01:05:05.767 --> 01:05:11.467
That's why I said engagement is the intellectual exercise as well as the physical

01:05:11.467 --> 01:05:14.847
one. All of us are intelligent beings.

01:05:15.107 --> 01:05:17.047
Some are more intelligent than others.

01:05:17.327 --> 01:05:22.507
Some have been more firmly educated than others. But on general principle,

01:05:22.767 --> 01:05:24.067
we're intelligent beings.

01:05:24.747 --> 01:05:34.867
And so each one of us contributes to how society functions, if we choose to do so.

01:05:35.867 --> 01:05:39.147
You know, there are people that are fighting for their right to contribute more

01:05:39.147 --> 01:05:41.867
to society, and we need to fight for that.

01:05:44.985 --> 01:05:49.685
Side with them. Everybody has a role to play. Everybody.

01:05:50.645 --> 01:05:56.185
And don't get caught up on how much money you got or how much money you don't

01:05:56.185 --> 01:06:01.125
have, what side of the tracks you grew up on, what school you went to.

01:06:01.945 --> 01:06:07.645
If we truly want to live up to the mantle of making America great.

01:06:09.145 --> 01:06:12.725
Of making sure that America lives up to its creed.

01:06:13.385 --> 01:06:18.345
We've got to engage, and we've got to engage in a civil way.

01:06:18.785 --> 01:06:23.785
We've got to engage in a thoughtful way.

01:06:24.345 --> 01:06:26.905
The vision is not going to do anything for us.

01:06:27.665 --> 01:06:30.865
Crabs in a barrel syndrome is not going to do anything for us.

01:06:31.325 --> 01:06:36.645
We have to be deliberate in our collaboration.

01:06:37.645 --> 01:06:43.765
And we have to be thoroughly engaged when we do so.

01:06:44.465 --> 01:06:48.005
You ain't got to be the leader, but I'm going to need your help.

01:06:49.445 --> 01:06:55.225
Everybody needs to pull their weight. Everybody needs to participate.

01:06:56.225 --> 01:07:03.265
If all you want to do is vote, okay. Because not voting is not an option to me.

01:07:03.605 --> 01:07:08.105
Maybe an option to some folks, but not to me. But if that's the bare minimum

01:07:08.105 --> 01:07:11.105
you want to do, I thank you for that.

01:07:11.465 --> 01:07:13.425
At least that's an engagement.

01:07:14.345 --> 01:07:20.965
But in order for us to really, really move this needle, we really want a country

01:07:20.965 --> 01:07:28.365
that our children and our grandchildren, our great-grandchildren can live and live abundantly in.

01:07:28.965 --> 01:07:33.345
Then we have to make a commitment to be engaged.

01:07:34.105 --> 01:07:39.705
And so that's the purpose of this podcast. That's the purpose of other like-minded people like me.

01:07:39.985 --> 01:07:46.445
It's the purpose of all these different groups that are out here and all these

01:07:46.445 --> 01:07:51.605
folks, you know, that are out here not necessarily getting all the notoriety

01:07:51.605 --> 01:07:53.345
and the praise, but they're doing the work.

01:07:54.225 --> 01:07:57.905
It's that dedication when people show up to teach our children.

01:07:57.905 --> 01:08:04.025
And it's that dedication to show up at your job to make products that are beneficial.

01:08:04.185 --> 01:08:06.525
It's your job when you work for the government.

01:08:07.465 --> 01:08:11.145
Anything that you do should be contributing.

01:08:11.725 --> 01:08:19.685
But when it comes to our governance, nothing, there really shouldn't be any

01:08:19.685 --> 01:08:23.705
barrier to that other than your will to do so.

01:08:24.325 --> 01:08:30.245
I can't make you do it, but I promise you that the more of us that are engaged,

01:08:30.465 --> 01:08:32.125
the more of us that are involved,

01:08:32.465 --> 01:08:39.805
the better our chances to succeed and to advance and to move forward.

01:08:40.080 --> 01:09:31.470
Music.