A Quiet Life & How To Raise A Citizen Featuring Will Cooper, Michael McKinley and Lindsey Cormack

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

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If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.

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First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash A Moment with Erik Fleming.

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Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak

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truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.

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Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you

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listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.

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Third, go to the website, momenteric.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,

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leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

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Lastly, don't keep this a secret like it's your own personal guilty pleasure.

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Tell someone else about the podcast encourage others to listen to the podcast

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and share the podcast on your social media platforms because it is time to make

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this moment a movement thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time

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i hope you enjoy this episode as well,

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the following program is hosted by the nbg podcast network.

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Music.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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So, greetings and thank you all for listening. I greatly appreciate y'all tuning in to the podcast.

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We still are on our quest for 20,000.

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So, if we can get 20,000 subscribers by the end of the year,

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I will be eternally grateful to you all to make this happen.

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And we can keep doing what we're doing, right?

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I've got some guests on that one of them has been a regular on this show,

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but this regular has brought a friend because they've written a book together,

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which is a very, very good book, and we'll get into that.

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But it's a fictional book, which for people that know me, I'm not big in fiction,

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but, you know, I like to read.

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So that's one of the cool things about this job is that I get to interview a

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lot of people who write books.

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And so I do get to read and I'm glad my reading habit has picked back up because of this.

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And then I have another guest. She's a professor of political science,

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and she has also written a book.

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And I think it's a timely book, you know, for the times that we are in.

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It's very, very important. And so we'll get into that.

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You know, and I may have something for y'all extra, but y'all just have to listen to the podcast to see.

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But again, this is going to be another great show.

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I enjoy doing this. I enjoy lifting people up that are doing the work.

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I enjoy talking about politics, even though it's kind of painful right now.

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But even more so, you have to have a love for politics to talk about what's

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going on and, you know, to get

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my viewpoints on it and what we can do or what we should not do. Right.

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Because there's always that. So anyway, I hope you all enjoy the show.

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So we're going to go ahead and kick it off, as always, with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Music.

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Thanks, Eric. President Trump announced higher China tariffs while holding off

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25% tariffs on Mexico and Canada until April 2nd.

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Trump declared America is back in a lengthy congressional address defending

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his trade wars and government worker purges.

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Representative Al Green was censured by the House of Representatives for being

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disruptive during Trump's address.

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The U.S. Supreme Court blocked Trump's bid to withhold payments to foreign aid

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groups for completed work. Trump paused U.S.

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Military aid to Ukraine after criticizing Ukrainian President Zelensky for insufficient gratitude.

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European leaders agreed to draft a Ukraine peace plan for U.S.

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Security guarantees, vowing increased defense spending and forming a coalition of the willing.

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Egypt's Gaza reconstruction proposal to counter President Trump's U.S.-led resettlement

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idea was adopted at an emergency Arab summit.

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Texas measles cases rose to 159, with hospitalizations increasing and an unvaccinated

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child's death marking the first U.S.

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Measles fatality since 2015.

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House Speaker Mike Johnson advised Republicans to avoid town halls after protests

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over Trump-backed federal job cuts.

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D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser plans to redesign Black Lives Matter Plaza,

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following GOP threats to cut transportation funding unless the name is changed.

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Robert Cremo III pled guilty to murder for a 2022 mass shooting at a Chicago

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suburbs 4th of July parade that killed seven and injured over 40.

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Democrats sued President Trump over an executive order they claim illegally

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expands his authority over the Federal Election Commission.

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Ex-New York Governor Andrew Cuomo announced a mayoral run, aiming to replace

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embattled Mayor Eric Adams. And U.S.

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Congressman Sylvester Turner, 70, former NAACP President Hazel Dukes,

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92, and R&B singer Angie Stone, 63, all passed away.

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I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.

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And now it is time for my guests, Will Cooper and Michael McKinley.

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Will Cooper is an attorney who's done work for major companies,

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including Google and Samsung.

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He's also an award-winning journalist whose articles have appeared in hundreds

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of publications around the world, including the New York Times,

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San Francisco Chronicle, Chicago Sun-Times and Jerusalem Post.

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Publishers Weekly called his writings about Donald Trump a compelling rallying

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cry for democratic institutions under threat in America.

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And he's a frequent guest on national television and radio programs and on numerous

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podcasts, especially this one.

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Will has been a regular on this podcast ever since I started having guests on the podcast.

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And so I greatly appreciate him coming on with this latest venture that he is

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endeavored in. And he lives in California.

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Now, joining him is Michael McKinley.

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Michael McKinley is an award-winning writer, journalist, and filmmaker.

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Michael was educated at the University of British Columbia and Oxford University,

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where he also directed academic summer schools, as well as at Cambridge University.

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He's written more than 20 books on subjects ranging from sport,

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military history, religion, business, and politics, and crime fiction.

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These include his book Willie, the game-changing story of the NHL's first black

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player, which was nominated for an NAACP Image Award and is now being made into a feature film.

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His first novel, The Penalty Killing, was nominated for an Arthur Ellis Award

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as Best Debut Crime Novel.

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Michael has also created, written, and produced television series for CNN,

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The History Channel, Discovery,

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TSN, CBC, and co-created and co-executive produced NBC Peacock slash Sky UK's

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ratings hit Epstein's Shadow.

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With Shane Maxwell's story, I can never say her name right.

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His newest documentary, which he also wrote, produced, and directed Let's Do

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a Miracle, recently debuted at the Big Apple Film Festival in New York City,

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where he also served as a juror for the 2025 documentary season.

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In 2024, he has published this cybercrime thriller, A Quiet Life.

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Lou Varro, the Godfather of U.S.

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Hockey, and Diamond Dust, The Compelling Story of a Brilliant Mormon Counterfeiter

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in Utah, as well as the airline terror thriller Squawk 7700.

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In 2025, his co-written radical thrillers The Glamour of Evil and Something

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Wicked will be published, as will his co-written political book Party Crasher,

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wrestling with third-party politics in the U.S.

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The business book, Blood Few, Greed, Hubris, and Redemption in a Family Business.

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The social justice book on thin ice and LAPD veterans and LAPD veterans 30 year

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journey toward a new culture of policing.

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The crime memoir redeemed a journey from darkness to light and the political

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and business book. Who Knew?

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My Journey Through Vietnam, Harvard, the White House, the Department of State,

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and Corporate America. So far.

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Michael lives in Brooklyn, New York with his wife and daughter.

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And so you heard me mention in one of those, the cyber crime thriller, Quiet Life.

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That's the book that Will and Michael co-wrote and we'll be discussing today on the podcast.

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So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as guests

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on this podcast, Will Cooper and Michael McKinley.

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Music.

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All right. I got my good friend, excuse me, my good friend, William Cooper,

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Will Cooper, on the show. Will, how you doing?

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Great to be here, Erik. I'm doing well. Thank you. And I see that you brought

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a friend with you this time, Michael McKinley. Mike, how you doing?

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Great, Erik. Thank you for inviting us on. Well, I'm glad to have you on.

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I was pleasantly surprised when Will sent me this book called A Quiet Life.

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And I started reading and I said, oh yeah, yeah, we, we, we got a,

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you know, and I assumed that Will wanted to talk about it when he sent it.

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And so I was, I was really, really encouraged to read it and it kind of took

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me aback a little bit and, and I'll get into that reason why,

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but I enjoyed reading the book and I recommend people go get it and we'll talk

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a little bit about it on the podcast and try to gin up some interest without

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spoiling it too much, right?

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Right. So normally I do like some icebreakers at the beginning.

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Will is very familiar with this. So Mike, we're breaking you in.

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So what I want to do is I want you, Mike, to answer this quote.

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If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting

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a foreign enemy. What does that quote mean to you?

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It means that somehow generated the foreign enemy within, I think is what it means.

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I'm, I'm an immigrant, Erik. I came to the United States from Canada.

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When my daughter was entering kindergarten, 2009, which was a year of hope and change.

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And so my wife and I decided we would follow the hope and change.

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So I've always thought that any enemy, the greatest enemy that is the United States was from within.

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And I still believe that. And I think now we're seeing evidence of that happening.

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Alas, alas. And Will and I addressed that in a quiet life as well,

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because we thought it was possible. Yeah.

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So I've got another one, icebreaker. So I'll start with Will with this one.

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And then, Mike, I want you to participate too.

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So Will, I want you to give me a number between one and 20.

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11. Okay. I got the easy question, Michael.

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All right. Number 11, where do you go to check a fact that you see, hear, or read?

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Whoa that's a huge question that i've been

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thinking a lot about that eric about facts

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and how to confirm them in the

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social media era and in the media ecosystem we live in this information is just

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oozing out of people's pores to a degree that's unfathomable and i frankly don't

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believe anything i read by virtually anybody at this point so if i want to verify a fact,

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I roll up my sleeves, I pour a cup of tea, I get ready for a real effort.

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And what I typically do is try to find cross-references at a variety of professional sources.

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And if they are all saying the same thing, I assume there's a high,

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although not certain degree, a high likelihood that it's true.

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But you asked a very important question in my view. Have you heard of this thing

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called Snopes.com? Yeah.

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Okay, Mike, you've heard of it. It was another guest that picked number 11,

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and he said that was his go-to as far as finding some information.

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I haven't looked at it yet, but I said I would.

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All right, Mike, give me a number between 1 and 20. Do not choose 11.

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Okay, 17. All right, 17 is, what's something about people who see the world

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differently than you that you've come to appreciate?

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Oh, that's a very good question because I've been working on that.

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Because so many people, about half the country, it seems, sees the world differently

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than me these days, Erik.

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So what I appreciate is their willingness to listen to my view,

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I guess, is I am willing to listen to theirs in a civilized way to possibly accomplish that.

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Willingness to have a dialogue. Thank you.

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And that, I know, tends to the question, but that's what I really appreciate

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somebody who has different view, if they're willing to discuss it with me in

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a way that will allow me to give them my opinion.

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Because as, you know, Will alluded to in his answer to his question,

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the disinformation just, we get hammered, you know?

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And if you try to counter it, you get hammered in all kinds of different ways,

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you know, rather than listened to or engaged with, right? So that's,

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that's how I think I will.

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Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, I definitely appreciate that because you can't have

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a dialogue if people are not willing to listen to each other. No.

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And that, and we're running into a lot of that. We kind of saw that.

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I don't know if y'all follow earlier today.

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They censored Congressman Green for his outburst that the Trump addressed to Congress Tuesday.

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And, you know, it was just, I mean, it was just apparent, you know,

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that we've gotten to a point where our leaders are just not even trying to dialogue with each other.

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Yeah. And, you know, it's like following the decorum of the House,

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you know, it was understood that the congressman and he agreed that he was going

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to get disciplined for it.

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But, you know, the way that people have been acting in that body ever since

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Joe Wilson, we can thank Joe Wilson from that from South Carolina.

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It's just, you know, I'm saying it's like they could have censored four or five

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people on both sides. for what happened.

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So I'm just, I agree with you, Mike. We got to have a dialogue.

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So William, I want to go to you with this particular question.

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What led you to co-write a fictional book about politics?

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You've been writing all this great stuff, all these columns,

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all these books about Donald Trump and his impact on American politics.

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Why did you decide to co-write a fictional book?

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Well, I love fiction, Erik. I love books of all kinds.

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And there's things you can do with fiction, of course, that you can't do with

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nonfiction. You can explore things.

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You can be creative, let your imagination run wild. I actually think with this

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book and in fiction, a lot of fiction for me is you let your paranoia run wild.

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Like we all live lives and we think well what if these

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things happen that that would be

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really terrible and they almost never

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do knock on wood but with a novel

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you get to write it out and so I thought it would

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be really fun to tell a story that that was my paranoia my imagination running

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wild and then when I met Michael I met a great partner with you know tremendous

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creativity and talent and got me even more excited about it.

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And, and we joined forces and, and just had a lot of fun, but it was really

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just an opportunity to express myself in a new, in a new form.

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It's still political and it still makes a lot of points about society and government,

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but so it's not a romance novel, but it was really just a fun opportunity to

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do something different.

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So how does the collab writing work?

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It's like, do you take a chapter, then Mike, you take a chapter,

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or y'all just kind of, how does the collaboration like that work?

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We we swapped chapters pretty much as we go it was the it was will's idea for the.

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Of the title and the two characters who have an ordinary or a desire for a quiet

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life and that really caught my imagination what does that mean today how can

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we pull that off and and so then it was a change of ideas that eventually evolve

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into chapters and go back and forth and then,

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you know hocus pocus we have a draft finally and then

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then that's that's the fun part to me is

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revising the draft because you know you've now got down on paper and now you're

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oh okay that's that might be better if we do this you know and then our dialogue

00:20:03.455 --> 00:20:08.315
so it was a real pleasure doing that well because of all his political astuteness

00:20:08.315 --> 00:20:12.515
and sensibility and talent it was great to do Yeah, Mike,

00:20:12.755 --> 00:20:17.115
you know, being a filmmaker, I know that you're used to doing collabs and stuff.

00:20:17.275 --> 00:20:21.435
And we were talking about Netflix because I know on certain series,

00:20:21.435 --> 00:20:27.715
you'll have one director do like a couple episodes and another director do another.

00:20:28.075 --> 00:20:31.335
So it's like, but every, you know, it's all one vision.

00:20:32.115 --> 00:20:35.255
So I was just kind of curious about that piece.

00:20:36.428 --> 00:20:40.348
So, Mike, you said that Will came up with the characters?

00:20:40.948 --> 00:20:45.448
It was Will's idea, yeah. For Michael, the two characters, Michael and Pam Housen,

00:20:45.488 --> 00:20:47.108
were this young couple who live in Indiana.

00:20:48.228 --> 00:20:51.268
And that's where he situated them and called it A Quiet Life.

00:20:52.588 --> 00:20:56.348
And said something bad happens to them because of something Michael did,

00:20:56.488 --> 00:20:59.708
either deliberately or accidentally, or not at all.

00:21:01.228 --> 00:21:06.928
And so that's what kicks it off. And it's a phishing email that Michael flips

00:21:06.928 --> 00:21:10.108
on that essentially creates global habit.

00:21:11.208 --> 00:21:13.908
In the book, in the world that we've created, in the quiet life,

00:21:14.068 --> 00:21:15.908
Michael Peck gets very noisy very fast.

00:21:16.108 --> 00:21:20.508
And they become enemies of the state and have to prove their innocence in order

00:21:20.508 --> 00:21:23.848
to survive, along with other things they have to prove in order to survive.

00:21:24.028 --> 00:21:29.928
So it was a lot of fun to run with it because, you know, we could run all over the place. And we did.

00:21:30.828 --> 00:21:36.828
Yeah. So, Will, you want to, since the characters were kind of your idea,

00:21:37.388 --> 00:21:41.788
kind of tell us who Michael and Pam are.

00:21:42.468 --> 00:21:45.028
And it's housing. Is that how you pronounce it?

00:21:46.358 --> 00:21:49.178
Yep. Michael and Pam Housen. Yeah.

00:21:49.318 --> 00:21:56.778
And Michael was very nice in his answer, but the two main characters I had thought

00:21:56.778 --> 00:22:01.218
of, but he brought a lot of wonderful characters from scratch into the book

00:22:01.218 --> 00:22:02.718
that created the whole narrative.

00:22:02.718 --> 00:22:06.698
But the central premise, Michael and Pam.

00:22:08.278 --> 00:22:11.898
The aim with the book,

00:22:12.198 --> 00:22:21.198
and I think the biggest sort of part of the book that we really wanted to have

00:22:21.198 --> 00:22:26.258
be the central theme was two very normal, ordinary people.

00:22:26.778 --> 00:22:30.698
Most people, they just want to wake up. They're in their early 30s.

00:22:30.778 --> 00:22:34.638
They just want to wake up, go to work, get some things done,

00:22:34.778 --> 00:22:39.498
drink their coffee at their desk, come home, watch their favorite Netflix show.

00:22:40.138 --> 00:22:45.218
Probably one of Michael's shows that he has on Netflix. And then relax,

00:22:45.378 --> 00:22:47.418
go to bed, and do it all over again the next day.

00:22:47.518 --> 00:22:50.118
And then in the weekend, go to a baseball game and have fun.

00:22:50.198 --> 00:22:55.638
And that's what most people want in life. and they're not looking to be at the

00:22:55.638 --> 00:22:58.678
center of a geopolitical firestorm.

00:22:59.738 --> 00:23:03.818
And the point of the book is to bring these characters and say,

00:23:04.018 --> 00:23:08.938
by a very innocent act, and there's some mystery about whether this happened

00:23:08.938 --> 00:23:12.978
or didn't, but a single click of a mouse, Michael,

00:23:13.998 --> 00:23:20.818
has let Iranian hackers into his company and his company services the U.S.

00:23:20.898 --> 00:23:23.818
Government. So Iranian cyber hackers have now gotten into the U.S.

00:23:24.158 --> 00:23:26.938
Government. So he was just drinking his coffee on this normal, quiet day.

00:23:27.318 --> 00:23:33.798
One little click. And that act by those hackers triggered a war. The U.S.

00:23:34.198 --> 00:23:38.858
President used it as a pretext for war. So the lesson is normal people,

00:23:39.618 --> 00:23:43.438
everyday lives, just like all of us, most of us at least.

00:23:44.719 --> 00:23:51.559
Thrust against their will into the center of the biggest story in the whole world.

00:23:52.499 --> 00:23:56.839
Yeah. So, and either one of y'all can answer the questions from this point forward,

00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:01.439
but I have to be honest, I didn't like what y'all did to Chicago.

00:24:01.739 --> 00:24:05.339
That kind of hurt my heart that y'all did that to Chicago.

00:24:05.739 --> 00:24:13.459
But why was Bloomington, Indiana, the backdrop of all the places in America?

00:24:14.419 --> 00:24:17.979
Why Bloomington, Indiana? It could have been anywhere.

00:24:20.499 --> 00:24:24.519
Well, let me step back and say I love Chicago deeply.

00:24:25.819 --> 00:24:30.459
Me too. Yes, maybe Michael meant offense, but not me. No, no,

00:24:30.479 --> 00:24:33.699
no. I love Chicago too. We love Chicago.

00:24:35.059 --> 00:24:38.159
But it could have been anywhere. Could have been Santa Fe, New Mexico.

00:24:38.659 --> 00:24:43.959
Could have been Jackson, Mississippi, where Erik and I have Mississippi lineage.

00:24:44.899 --> 00:24:50.999
It could have been anywhere. The point was, it was just a relatively normal

00:24:50.999 --> 00:24:53.059
place. It wasn't Rodeo Drive.

00:24:53.379 --> 00:24:55.399
It wasn't the center of Park Avenue.

00:24:56.019 --> 00:25:01.439
It was just a normal Midwestern town, normal Midwestern family. Yeah.

00:25:02.999 --> 00:25:07.359
So even though this book is set eight years into the future,

00:25:07.879 --> 00:25:11.819
Why did you feel that this book would resonate with audiences today?

00:25:12.859 --> 00:25:16.819
Mike, you want to jump on that one? Sure. I think that we thought,

00:25:16.979 --> 00:25:21.419
Eric, when we were constructing it, that there were things that were already

00:25:21.419 --> 00:25:23.619
in play that were going to play out.

00:25:24.239 --> 00:25:28.139
We just didn't know when they would play. And if they played out very negatively,

00:25:28.579 --> 00:25:34.459
for example, the hunting bounty on immigrants, which a rep in Mississippi actually proposed. Yeah.

00:25:35.375 --> 00:25:41.235
For bounty of immigrants, people in the country who were trying to flee to Canada,

00:25:41.235 --> 00:25:42.335
which is now actually happening.

00:25:43.115 --> 00:25:45.515
Immigrants are going to Canada instead of staying here.

00:25:46.295 --> 00:25:52.455
It was things like that that we thought were in play, but would they play out one way or the other?

00:25:52.895 --> 00:26:01.015
So the timeline in the future, if you will, was appealing for that reason because

00:26:01.015 --> 00:26:04.815
it's happened sooner rather than later, I guess you could say.

00:26:05.375 --> 00:26:08.455
But it's happening. And that's why we thought it would be resonant,

00:26:08.495 --> 00:26:10.795
because it was already extant.

00:26:11.395 --> 00:26:14.195
It just needed to be amplified. And we thought we would amplify it,

00:26:14.375 --> 00:26:18.615
tweak it, and play with it, and fictionalize what we wanted to fictionalize

00:26:18.615 --> 00:26:20.055
and hope that it didn't come true.

00:26:21.755 --> 00:26:27.075
But that was our goal. So how long ago did y'all start working on this book?

00:26:28.255 --> 00:26:29.755
Gosh, well, would it have been 2022?

00:26:31.255 --> 00:26:37.315
Yeah, time flies. I think we joined forces in the latter part of 2022. I think that's right.

00:26:38.195 --> 00:26:44.795
Yeah. Yeah. So basically when y'all started it, y'all pushed it like 10 years in advance.

00:26:45.235 --> 00:26:47.475
Pretty much. Pretty much, Erik. Yeah.

00:26:48.528 --> 00:26:55.268
All right. So when we readers put this book down outside of being entertained,

00:26:55.268 --> 00:26:58.348
what do you want them to take away from this book?

00:26:59.188 --> 00:27:05.688
I'll go first, if that's OK, Michael. I think I think two things.

00:27:06.428 --> 00:27:13.048
The first is is the world we live in now due to the interconnectivity of computers.

00:27:13.668 --> 00:27:18.548
It's not just flat. Like the big book by Thomas Friedman 20 years ago, The World's Flat.

00:27:18.848 --> 00:27:22.608
It's not just flat. It is deeply, deeply interconnected.

00:27:23.108 --> 00:27:28.168
And within half a nanosecond, billions of people anywhere on the globe you can

00:27:28.168 --> 00:27:30.768
interact with, a lot of that's positive.

00:27:31.248 --> 00:27:34.268
What we're doing right now is wonderful.

00:27:34.528 --> 00:27:39.948
Three people online talking and clicked a few buttons and here we were.

00:27:39.948 --> 00:27:48.028
But it also creates an unbelievable risk and potential that any one of us makes

00:27:48.028 --> 00:27:54.508
a single wrong move innocently and we can be thrust into things that we never wanted,

00:27:54.508 --> 00:27:59.128
never wanted to partake in. And it can be quite negative.

00:27:59.328 --> 00:28:02.648
The SolarWinds hack where Russia got into the U.S.

00:28:02.788 --> 00:28:07.328
Government through SolarWinds, a private company, that was a phishing email.

00:28:07.328 --> 00:28:12.388
So somebody out there that was an employee at SolarWinds, I don't know a name,

00:28:12.488 --> 00:28:15.688
I don't think a name's been identified, but somebody out there clicked a link

00:28:15.688 --> 00:28:20.508
at their office, and then a couple years later found out because of that click,

00:28:20.728 --> 00:28:26.868
Russia was reading the most confidential classified State Department memos out there.

00:28:27.628 --> 00:28:33.088
So point one is the incredible interconnectivity and how that could be both good and bad.

00:28:33.548 --> 00:28:36.388
And then the second point, and then I'll let Michael give his view,

00:28:36.628 --> 00:28:47.268
is the concentration of power, both money and technology, in politics is very dangerous.

00:28:47.268 --> 00:28:49.468
And the nexus between those two things.

00:28:49.488 --> 00:28:54.288
We're seeing that every day. Every other headline is about the richest man in

00:28:54.288 --> 00:28:58.888
the world who owns five tech companies and all the things he's doing in our government.

00:28:59.248 --> 00:29:02.728
The book talks about a lot of that and focuses on a lot of that.

00:29:03.448 --> 00:29:10.248
And hopefully through the fictional perspective on that, it'll amplify for people

00:29:10.248 --> 00:29:12.708
the real danger inherent there.

00:29:12.848 --> 00:29:19.488
It's not just any other day in U.S. politics. We're in a whole new world.

00:29:20.068 --> 00:29:22.248
Those are my two. Michael, what about you?

00:29:23.148 --> 00:29:29.968
I think those are great points, Will. I would just add that in imagining Michael and Pam and their story,

00:29:30.768 --> 00:29:35.008
at the end of it, you see a couple who've gone through hell,

00:29:35.208 --> 00:29:39.708
really, and have come up the other side and are still together and still looking

00:29:39.708 --> 00:29:42.868
towards the future and still love each other.

00:29:43.028 --> 00:29:45.548
So it is a love story, too, in a way.

00:29:46.737 --> 00:29:49.757
And I think that that's something I'd like the reader to think about when they

00:29:49.757 --> 00:29:56.257
finish the book is who matters to them in their world and how can they be better for that person?

00:29:56.917 --> 00:29:59.217
For all the reasons, we'll just elaborate.

00:29:59.997 --> 00:30:05.377
Because we are so interconnected, but often we don't connect in that technical possibility.

00:30:06.817 --> 00:30:10.597
And we've seen what the powerful and rich can do to government.

00:30:11.097 --> 00:30:16.177
And so if you connect with people that you do love, maybe you can make a difference.

00:30:17.177 --> 00:30:21.277
Somehow to that world that we've imagined and kind of stare at.

00:30:22.217 --> 00:30:28.477
Yeah. So one of the, one of the popular things on social media people do with

00:30:28.477 --> 00:30:32.517
AI is like they merge things like they'll merge,

00:30:32.737 --> 00:30:39.617
like, I don't know, a monster from our Halloween tradition with like a football team. Right.

00:30:40.297 --> 00:30:44.537
And, and it comes up with this unique creature that, that you, watch.

00:30:44.977 --> 00:30:51.817
In reading the book, Brian Davis, I was thinking this was the AI merger between

00:30:51.817 --> 00:30:55.277
our current president and the richest man in the world.

00:30:55.737 --> 00:31:02.277
Would that be a fair description of Brian Davis's character in this book?

00:31:02.677 --> 00:31:04.837
I think we need to give you a co-author credit.

00:31:07.377 --> 00:31:12.177
That's bang on yes yes okay i

00:31:12.177 --> 00:31:18.157
just you know it's like you're reading it i was like saying okay yeah i i see

00:31:18.157 --> 00:31:22.697
these these two merged in together that's that's pretty interesting all right

00:31:22.697 --> 00:31:30.557
so without giving away too much when is the sequel gonna drop are we working on it are we,

00:31:31.717 --> 00:31:34.997
just kind of waiting to see how people receive it. What are we doing?

00:31:36.557 --> 00:31:41.097
We're brainstorming. We have lots of fun ideas. Given your last comment,

00:31:41.277 --> 00:31:43.937
Erik, we may need to bring you into the brainstorming sessions.

00:31:45.037 --> 00:31:50.997
But the publishing industry, I've learned through a lot of what I've learned

00:31:50.997 --> 00:31:53.197
has actually been in my collaboration with Michael.

00:31:54.533 --> 00:32:01.233
Unbelievably slow glacial pace so a lot of the books that come out hit the shelves,

00:32:01.833 --> 00:32:08.113
the the first movement on them were five ten years earlier even longer so we

00:32:08.113 --> 00:32:11.753
don't have anything we're we're announcing or anything that's moved too far

00:32:11.753 --> 00:32:16.993
but we're really excited about the sequel and and the characters i think michael

00:32:16.993 --> 00:32:20.153
and pam are great characters and like i said And Michael added,

00:32:20.173 --> 00:32:22.733
you know, a bunch of incredible,

00:32:23.193 --> 00:32:27.773
fascinating characters to that initial idea and the way they all interact together.

00:32:27.973 --> 00:32:32.073
So we're really excited about a series, but we're moving slow,

00:32:32.073 --> 00:32:35.673
which is consistent with the industry in terms of actual release dates.

00:32:36.833 --> 00:32:42.953
If, you know, if, as I said earlier, if a Netflix or a streamer got interested,

00:32:43.573 --> 00:32:45.433
we would move a lot faster.

00:32:45.433 --> 00:32:48.113
I mean in that we think that this has

00:32:48.113 --> 00:32:50.893
got potential for limited series because of its

00:32:50.893 --> 00:32:53.913
structure and the characters and that it continues

00:32:53.913 --> 00:32:56.893
and that it's a political thriller you

00:32:56.893 --> 00:33:00.333
know as well so in an unexpected way nobody is

00:33:00.333 --> 00:33:04.573
inside the seat of power in the story I mean Michael and Cameron are as far

00:33:04.573 --> 00:33:08.553
from it as you can imagine yet they get thrust into the middle of it and what

00:33:08.553 --> 00:33:12.833
happens if that happens to us you know so I think it's a unique angle and a

00:33:12.833 --> 00:33:16.933
fresh end to explore so we'll Yeah.

00:33:17.213 --> 00:33:23.353
Well, I mean, that's that's cool because I definitely want to see this story finish out.

00:33:24.093 --> 00:33:28.593
Like I said, I was reading it and it looked like things were coming to a close.

00:33:28.733 --> 00:33:32.573
And I looked at the book and I said, oh, there's still quite a few pages left.

00:33:34.433 --> 00:33:38.573
I don't think we're at the end yet. So and I was right. So, again,

00:33:38.833 --> 00:33:40.613
excellent job on the book, guys.

00:33:41.513 --> 00:33:44.473
Incredible. How can people get the book?

00:33:45.657 --> 00:33:48.877
Make you get it google go ahead sorry no

00:33:48.877 --> 00:33:52.117
please google a quiet

00:33:52.117 --> 00:33:55.377
life michael mckinley william cooper you'll see

00:33:55.377 --> 00:34:00.237
it all the various places you get your books or go to amazon target it's on

00:34:00.237 --> 00:34:05.777
the shelves in local bookstores as well but the easiest thing you can do and

00:34:05.777 --> 00:34:10.197
and this feels like the kind of the way to get most things these days is throw

00:34:10.197 --> 00:34:12.477
it in google and see where your,

00:34:14.217 --> 00:34:18.477
preferred vendor pops up with it. It's everywhere. Books are sold.

00:34:18.717 --> 00:34:23.257
Barnes & Noble, Target, the whole nine yards.

00:34:24.197 --> 00:34:28.977
If I might add, Erik, my favorite bookselling website these days is bookshop.org,

00:34:28.997 --> 00:34:32.397
which supports all the independent booksellers in the country.

00:34:32.737 --> 00:34:34.477
It has great prices as well.

00:34:34.937 --> 00:34:38.577
All the places we'll mention and bookshop.org will all let you get it.

00:34:39.997 --> 00:34:43.757
Michael, if people want to reach out to you, How can they get in touch with you?

00:34:44.777 --> 00:34:51.077
They can contact me on my website, which is www.liberteo, L-I-B-E,

00:34:51.217 --> 00:34:53.937
liberteo, and then A-Y-O, dot com.

00:34:54.937 --> 00:34:57.877
All right. And Will, how can people reach out to you?

00:34:58.797 --> 00:35:04.617
Easiest way is my website, W-I-L-L hyphen C-O-O-P-E-R dot com.

00:35:05.317 --> 00:35:09.597
Well, guys, first of all, I'm really, really happy for both of y'all.

00:35:09.597 --> 00:35:18.257
I hope this is successful as far as a, you know, a venture, as far as,

00:35:18.277 --> 00:35:21.817
you know, getting people to buy the book. Hopefully this this helps.

00:35:22.677 --> 00:35:29.297
But I really, really thoroughly enjoyed it. And I don't usually read a lot of fiction anymore.

00:35:29.797 --> 00:35:34.697
If I if I read fiction, it's to get away from politics. more so.

00:35:34.877 --> 00:35:39.757
I am one of the few human beings who have yet to see House of Cards any episode.

00:35:41.037 --> 00:35:47.257
And I think it went on for like six years, I think. But, you know, it's like as far as.

00:35:48.574 --> 00:35:52.554
You know, I'm more of if I'm going to get into the thing is like science fiction,

00:35:52.734 --> 00:35:56.374
that kind of stuff, even though science fiction has a lot of political implications,

00:35:56.374 --> 00:36:00.614
it still takes me away from this particular world. Right.

00:36:00.814 --> 00:36:07.614
And so to read your book and to be thoroughly entertained and caught up in it,

00:36:08.114 --> 00:36:12.514
you know, because it's like, you know, once you once you pick it up and start

00:36:12.514 --> 00:36:14.314
reading it, it's really hard to put down.

00:36:14.814 --> 00:36:17.654
And and so y'all did a masterful job

00:36:17.654 --> 00:36:20.474
on it and again like i said i wish y'all

00:36:20.474 --> 00:36:23.854
much success so so so thank you for that and and

00:36:23.854 --> 00:36:27.874
when you do come up with the sequel hopefully i'll still be out here in the

00:36:27.874 --> 00:36:33.494
world podcasting or whatever but i i definitely will want y'all to come back

00:36:33.494 --> 00:36:38.254
and and promote that as well because if if it's anything like this book here

00:36:38.254 --> 00:36:41.974
quiet life it's it's going to be a great book as well.

00:36:42.734 --> 00:36:46.174
Thank you, Erik. Yeah, that's great. Thank you, Erik. Appreciate it.

00:36:46.474 --> 00:36:53.454
All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side. We'll be right back.

00:36:49.200 --> 00:37:08.240
Music.

00:37:08.254 --> 00:37:14.834
All right. And we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Lindsay Cormack.

00:37:15.394 --> 00:37:20.154
Lindsey Cormack is an associate professor of political science at Stevens Institute

00:37:20.154 --> 00:37:23.574
of Technology and a director of the Diplomacy Lab.

00:37:23.854 --> 00:37:30.114
Her research explores congressional communication, civic education and electoral systems.

00:37:30.874 --> 00:37:36.394
Lindsey is the creator of DC Inbox, a comprehensive digital archive of Congress

00:37:36.394 --> 00:37:42.254
to constituent e-newsletters and the author of How to Raise a Citizen and Why

00:37:42.254 --> 00:37:45.734
It Is Up to You to Do It, and Congress and U.S.

00:37:45.854 --> 00:37:48.634
Veterans from the GI Bill to the VA Crisis.

00:37:49.054 --> 00:37:52.454
Her work has been featured in The New York Times, The Washington Post,

00:37:52.934 --> 00:37:55.974
Bloomberg Businessweek, Big Think, and more.

00:37:55.974 --> 00:38:00.754
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:38:00.754 --> 00:38:04.294
on this podcast, Lindsey Cormack.

00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:16.240
Music.

00:38:16.112 --> 00:38:19.212
All right. Lindsey Cormack. How are you doing, Professor? You doing good?

00:38:19.812 --> 00:38:23.712
I'm doing good today. Thanks for having me. Classes are doing okay?

00:38:24.552 --> 00:38:27.772
Classes are going great. We're coming up on midterms and it's feeling really fun.

00:38:28.252 --> 00:38:33.372
Yeah. Yeah. I remember those days. As a student, I didn't get to teach in the

00:38:33.372 --> 00:38:35.412
college level, but yeah.

00:38:35.832 --> 00:38:39.572
Yeah. Midterm was like, okay, halfway through, you're going to make it.

00:38:39.572 --> 00:38:41.632
That's right. You're going to get there. Spring's coming. Yeah.

00:38:43.412 --> 00:38:48.932
All right. So I like to start off with some icebreakers before we get into the interview.

00:38:49.632 --> 00:38:54.892
And the first icebreaker is a quote. So I want you to respond to this quote.

00:38:54.892 --> 00:39:01.452
The greatest danger to a democracy is an uninformed electorate where legislators

00:39:01.452 --> 00:39:07.252
bow to the demands of the ignorant majority instead of governing based on the

00:39:07.252 --> 00:39:11.172
best interests of greater society. What does that quote mean to you?

00:39:11.632 --> 00:39:17.652
So that is something that I would a thousand percent agree with in the sense

00:39:17.652 --> 00:39:22.872
that democracy doesn't care how smart you are, how educated you are. We all count the same.

00:39:23.192 --> 00:39:28.192
And so the real risk that we have is having, you know, a set of people who believe

00:39:28.192 --> 00:39:31.972
something that is maybe either not true or something that doesn't actually help,

00:39:32.112 --> 00:39:33.752
but acting upon that impulse.

00:39:33.952 --> 00:39:37.852
And so understanding our system better, understanding our sort of like place

00:39:37.852 --> 00:39:41.352
in that system and how to navigate all the complexities of all the issues.

00:39:41.492 --> 00:39:47.152
And it is important for having a more functional and more fun operational democracy. Yeah.

00:39:47.792 --> 00:39:53.732
All right. So the next icebreaker, I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20. 13.

00:39:54.312 --> 00:40:02.712
Okay. So your question is, do you think there is such a thing as unbiased news or media and why?

00:40:03.312 --> 00:40:05.552
No, and because it would be impossible.

00:40:06.452 --> 00:40:07.832
Okay. Okay.

00:40:09.591 --> 00:40:13.551
Like we all come at the world with a different perspective based on our lived

00:40:13.551 --> 00:40:16.411
experiences. The stories we tell are biased.

00:40:16.611 --> 00:40:19.111
Those ones we choose not to tell, we can never see. So, yeah,

00:40:19.171 --> 00:40:24.051
I think it's impossible to think that there's such a thing as an unbiased anything. I understand.

00:40:24.531 --> 00:40:28.311
All right. Well, that's kind of Hobbesian, but, you know, it's OK.

00:40:28.551 --> 00:40:30.131
I understand. I understand.

00:40:31.171 --> 00:40:36.931
You stated in your book, How to Raise a Citizen, four reasons why Americans

00:40:36.931 --> 00:40:40.811
don't know as much about politics as we should.

00:40:41.531 --> 00:40:48.611
Intricate by design, a tradition of not talking, hating politics and schools out.

00:40:49.191 --> 00:40:52.671
Which one does the most damage in your

00:40:52.671 --> 00:40:55.531
opinion oh i really like

00:40:55.531 --> 00:40:59.431
that question which one does the most damage because i do think they're all

00:40:59.431 --> 00:41:02.691
damaging intricate design is not the answer because that's just sort of how

00:41:02.691 --> 00:41:09.131
it is i think yeah the most damage is probably this narrative that politics

00:41:09.131 --> 00:41:14.811
is all bad or that it's for egomaniacs and it's only for people who want to like rig a game.

00:41:14.951 --> 00:41:18.911
I think this hating politics narrative that we teach our kids from the time

00:41:18.911 --> 00:41:23.511
they're little until we're dead is problematic because then we have this sort

00:41:23.511 --> 00:41:28.271
of like complaint orientation to politics versus an orientation that's like,

00:41:28.391 --> 00:41:29.771
well, this is my government.

00:41:29.951 --> 00:41:32.891
How can I make it better? So I think that's probably the most damaging.

00:41:33.771 --> 00:41:42.011
Yeah, because, you know, So one of the things you stress is for parents to,

00:41:42.491 --> 00:41:44.791
well, I'll get into that a little later.

00:41:45.051 --> 00:41:48.511
I'll get into that a little later because I do have a direct question about that.

00:41:49.371 --> 00:41:54.411
How challenging is it as a political science professor to teach incoming college

00:41:54.411 --> 00:41:56.031
students about politics?

00:41:56.591 --> 00:42:00.031
I mean, I'll say that I thought it was more challenging when I started.

00:42:00.031 --> 00:42:04.891
And now that I've been doing it for 10 years, I just realized the exercise is

00:42:04.891 --> 00:42:08.191
not make sure they know everything that I think they need to know.

00:42:08.411 --> 00:42:11.731
It's figure out where they're at and start building upon that.

00:42:12.011 --> 00:42:15.131
Teach them the tools to go figure out stuff as it arises in their life.

00:42:15.351 --> 00:42:20.231
And so it's not difficult per se, but it is a little bit depressing in the sense

00:42:20.231 --> 00:42:24.031
that at the school that I'm at, I have really smart students who have like great

00:42:24.031 --> 00:42:25.871
test scores and all the admissions exams.

00:42:26.051 --> 00:42:30.251
They're really good at doing school. But if you ask them about very basic things

00:42:30.251 --> 00:42:31.311
about the federal government,

00:42:31.511 --> 00:42:34.671
they will not know the answer If you ask them really anything about state and

00:42:34.671 --> 00:42:38.051
local government, they won't know the answer and that's not their fault I don't

00:42:38.051 --> 00:42:41.471
think like oh man, you know, these kids are so bad at it I think oh man,

00:42:41.651 --> 00:42:45.071
what have we done to them systematically that they don't know these things?

00:42:45.211 --> 00:42:48.811
We've given them the power to be 18 year olds who can vote But how can they

00:42:48.811 --> 00:42:52.531
really exercise that if they do not understand the system that they're a part of?

00:42:53.171 --> 00:42:57.331
Yeah Yeah. So I've had political science professors on.

00:42:57.491 --> 00:43:03.051
And so one of the things I try to ask him is, what do you learn from your students

00:43:03.051 --> 00:43:05.251
to make you a better professor?

00:43:05.967 --> 00:43:09.327
I mean, I learn something every day from them. I think that's one of the reasons

00:43:09.327 --> 00:43:11.487
it's the best job that anyone can ever do.

00:43:11.887 --> 00:43:16.307
Because young people are hopeful. They are not as jaded as older people.

00:43:16.587 --> 00:43:19.987
And they sort of like come to the world with this less prejudicial lens.

00:43:20.107 --> 00:43:23.627
They don't know what the Democratic answer is. They don't know what the Republican answer is.

00:43:23.787 --> 00:43:26.347
And so they're just sort of trying to make sense of their world.

00:43:26.467 --> 00:43:30.047
And they teach me stuff all the time. I ask roll call questions at the beginning

00:43:30.047 --> 00:43:34.247
of every day, and four of them are like to make sure that they read what's happening.

00:43:34.427 --> 00:43:38.207
And I only call on five students at random. But the fifth question is always,

00:43:38.407 --> 00:43:40.687
what's good or new in politics since I last saw you?

00:43:41.067 --> 00:43:44.827
And I learned something in that because we all have different media diets.

00:43:44.967 --> 00:43:47.207
The algorithms are going to put different things in front of us,

00:43:47.227 --> 00:43:48.647
and they teach me stuff all the time.

00:43:48.667 --> 00:43:52.967
And then I have to go write it on the board and say, oh, I did not know that. I have not heard that.

00:43:53.147 --> 00:43:56.507
And then I follow up. I figure it out. And then we have this online thing where

00:43:56.507 --> 00:43:58.487
I put it in the announcements and say, here's what I found.

00:43:58.707 --> 00:44:01.227
What is it that you guys were seeing when you told me about this?

00:44:01.707 --> 00:44:02.887
Yeah, that's pretty cool.

00:44:03.747 --> 00:44:08.227
All right. So I don't know if you did any background on me, but I used to be an elected official.

00:44:09.727 --> 00:44:16.447
So what advantage do I have as a politician knowing that only 47 percent of the U.S.

00:44:16.607 --> 00:44:20.227
Adult population can identify the three branches of government?

00:44:20.707 --> 00:44:24.547
What advantage do you have as someone who's lived on the other side of this? Yes.

00:44:25.127 --> 00:44:28.687
I mean, you have tons of advantages. You have the experiential advantage of

00:44:28.687 --> 00:44:31.347
understanding how the pieces work or don't work together.

00:44:31.587 --> 00:44:35.667
I imagine you have a better viewpoint on like how different layers of government

00:44:35.667 --> 00:44:40.147
can interact or don't, or also how the system is reinforcing and sometimes a

00:44:40.147 --> 00:44:44.507
little dysfunctional. And it's not something that I really fault people for not knowing this.

00:44:44.647 --> 00:44:48.907
But I do think that if we really want this experiment, this United States enterprise

00:44:48.907 --> 00:44:52.447
to go as well as it can, we have to want to know these things.

00:44:52.847 --> 00:44:56.687
People who are on the inside like you, you do have a leg up because you've lived it.

00:44:56.887 --> 00:45:00.167
But we would all be better if we knew a little bit more. Yeah,

00:45:00.447 --> 00:45:04.327
so I was thinking more of a conniving kind of thing.

00:45:04.467 --> 00:45:07.067
I was going Hobbesian myself on that question.

00:45:07.467 --> 00:45:13.147
As a politician, how do I, in order to stay elected?

00:45:13.898 --> 00:45:18.798
How does that give me an advantage that people don't know stuff about their government?

00:45:19.418 --> 00:45:22.938
Well, it's much harder to hold you accountable. You can get away with a lot

00:45:22.938 --> 00:45:24.498
more if we don't know things.

00:45:24.798 --> 00:45:29.538
And I'll tell you something in my world. I run this database called DC Inbox

00:45:29.538 --> 00:45:33.578
and it's members of Congress in their official capacity that send emails to their constituents.

00:45:33.878 --> 00:45:38.358
And all the time they will say things like, I introduced this bill or this is

00:45:38.358 --> 00:45:42.078
going to happen here. And that's not true. And they know it's not going anywhere

00:45:42.078 --> 00:45:45.858
because they'll be in the minority party. and be like, I'm doing this work on your behalf.

00:45:45.978 --> 00:45:49.138
And I'll be like, this bill is going to get referred to three committees and

00:45:49.138 --> 00:45:51.558
die in committee. And there's no way this gets passed.

00:45:51.758 --> 00:45:54.558
But your constituents, you look like you sure are trying really hard.

00:45:54.758 --> 00:45:57.858
And so the less you know, the harder it is to hold people accountable.

00:45:58.018 --> 00:46:01.058
And people on the inside, they know that too. Yeah.

00:46:01.778 --> 00:46:05.758
So, you know, it was kind of scary when I first ran for the legislature.

00:46:05.938 --> 00:46:09.298
I had run for office before, but when I first ran for the legislature,

00:46:09.298 --> 00:46:10.458
it was a special election.

00:46:11.358 --> 00:46:17.818
So I had to go get signatures. And, you know, some of the questions that people

00:46:17.818 --> 00:46:24.818
asked me was like, oh, my God, these people don't know a lot of stuff that's going on.

00:46:25.438 --> 00:46:28.898
And I remember one guy, he signed a petition. He said, oh, yeah, yeah.

00:46:29.078 --> 00:46:31.998
He said, now, that means you get to go to Washington, right?

00:46:32.078 --> 00:46:35.978
And I said, no, I go right downtown. You know, that big building downtown with the dome?

00:46:36.078 --> 00:46:38.838
He said, oh, yeah, yeah, that's why I'll be working if y'all vote for me.

00:46:38.918 --> 00:46:40.478
He said, oh, okay, I got you. I got you.

00:46:40.958 --> 00:46:45.858
Also, there's a state Congress, too. So I really had to give like a quick civics lesson right then.

00:46:46.338 --> 00:46:50.798
But the scariest thing I ever had was when I was I think was the first time

00:46:50.798 --> 00:46:52.778
I ran for the U.S. Senate in 2006.

00:46:53.976 --> 00:46:57.776
And it was a lawyer. We were at a barbershop and it was a lawyer.

00:46:58.256 --> 00:47:01.576
And he said, Fleming, now, when you get elected to the Senate,

00:47:01.836 --> 00:47:06.536
which part of the state are you going to represent the northern part or the southern part?

00:47:07.096 --> 00:47:11.436
And in my mind, I was like going, this is a lawyer asking me his question?

00:47:11.976 --> 00:47:14.936
A grown and older man. He was older than me. And I was like,

00:47:15.076 --> 00:47:20.056
oh, my God. So, you know, I asked that question and somebody's like,

00:47:20.176 --> 00:47:21.716
okay, how can I take advantage of this?

00:47:21.836 --> 00:47:27.976
But in real life, it was very, very scary to me that how uninformed,

00:47:27.976 --> 00:47:31.616
you know, a good number of people are.

00:47:31.616 --> 00:47:36.356
People that you would think would know stuff, just don't really know the basic

00:47:36.356 --> 00:47:37.576
operations of government.

00:47:37.756 --> 00:47:41.236
And now we live in a society where we get all this information and we're being

00:47:41.236 --> 00:47:46.836
thrown this, you know, and people got to make decisions. It's now stand in line.

00:47:47.036 --> 00:47:51.316
It's just, it's really, really kind of scary to me. Does it scare you a little bit or?

00:47:52.136 --> 00:47:55.196
I don't know if fear is the emotion that I have to that.

00:47:55.416 --> 00:48:01.856
I sort of have sort of like an empathetic sadness, which is no one raises themselves.

00:48:02.236 --> 00:48:05.696
No one is responsible for learning everything that they're going to learn.

00:48:05.716 --> 00:48:10.836
And we sort of put it on people to learn this stuff because we don't teach it in schools by and large.

00:48:10.996 --> 00:48:14.516
And so when I have people later in life who like really don't know the basics

00:48:14.516 --> 00:48:16.976
and plenty of people confide to me, be like, I don't actually know this.

00:48:17.096 --> 00:48:20.116
I'm like, No one knows this. Don't feel bad about that.

00:48:20.316 --> 00:48:24.536
So many people don't know these things. And it's really not anyone's individual fault.

00:48:24.676 --> 00:48:27.736
It's sort of our collective fault for thinking someone else will take care of

00:48:27.736 --> 00:48:31.096
it or someone else will think about this thing instead of recognizing like,

00:48:31.536 --> 00:48:34.956
oh, no, we are the crew of this experiment.

00:48:35.136 --> 00:48:38.056
We are not just passengers in democracy. We're the crew that powers it.

00:48:38.156 --> 00:48:40.576
So we have to figure out a little bit more. Yeah.

00:48:41.236 --> 00:48:47.996
So in your answers, you allowed me to bring up a couple of questions real quick,

00:48:48.116 --> 00:48:49.536
a little earlier than I planned.

00:48:50.574 --> 00:48:56.994
What changes, since you mentioned D.C. Inbox, what changes have you seen in

00:48:56.994 --> 00:49:02.674
letters from congressmen or women to their constituents as far as what they

00:49:02.674 --> 00:49:05.234
tell them or just the style even?

00:49:05.734 --> 00:49:10.354
Yeah, there's a lot of big stylistic changes. This database started in 2009

00:49:10.354 --> 00:49:12.474
and the Internet was like a lot weirder back then.

00:49:12.614 --> 00:49:15.774
It was much more idiosyncratic and it was much more text focused.

00:49:15.774 --> 00:49:21.214
And in the last 15 years, more so on the Republican side than the Democratic side,

00:49:21.354 --> 00:49:24.934
there's been a shift to doing shorter things with pictures or shorter things

00:49:24.934 --> 00:49:29.214
with like infographics or images that sort of explain a situation versus a lot

00:49:29.214 --> 00:49:31.254
of text that kind of describes the details.

00:49:31.754 --> 00:49:37.174
It's also the case that sort of since Donald Trump won in 2016,

00:49:37.174 --> 00:49:42.134
the use of all capital letters, again, more on the Republican side than the

00:49:42.134 --> 00:49:45.374
Democratic side, is something that you can sort of see stylistically,

00:49:45.714 --> 00:49:48.714
where, you know, that like all caps yelling, very important thing.

00:49:48.894 --> 00:49:52.774
That really wasn't a feature of most congressional communication until that

00:49:52.774 --> 00:49:56.994
became palatable or at least acceptable for the president. And then they sort of took that on, too.

00:49:58.034 --> 00:50:01.374
There's plenty of things to learn in it, like men and women talk about different

00:50:01.374 --> 00:50:05.574
things, depending on people's sort of backgrounds. If they were like businessmen

00:50:05.574 --> 00:50:07.934
or doctors or lawyers, they have different styles.

00:50:08.254 --> 00:50:11.214
But it's just like a tool that is free for anyone to use.

00:50:11.394 --> 00:50:15.434
I know a lot from it, but it is my like sincerest hope that other people learn

00:50:15.434 --> 00:50:18.814
what they're going to learn. I just had a reporter from Congressional Quarterly

00:50:18.814 --> 00:50:22.554
reach out to me because he was like, I want to see how often they're cursing in these things.

00:50:22.914 --> 00:50:26.794
I was like, OK, well, let's look into it. And I just like went through five curse words with him.

00:50:26.914 --> 00:50:30.174
I had someone else who was asking me about the word feminism.

00:50:30.174 --> 00:50:32.254
And I was like, they don't really say that that much in these things.

00:50:32.374 --> 00:50:36.134
So you can you can learn really anything you want by just querying the database and figuring it out.

00:50:36.574 --> 00:50:40.874
Yeah. Yeah. That's that's pretty that's interesting. And it's also pretty cool

00:50:40.874 --> 00:50:44.334
that you have that running archive like that.

00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:49.939
Should there be a national curriculum for American politics that is required

00:50:49.939 --> 00:50:51.639
for high school students to graduate?

00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:56.479
Yeah, it's a really hard question because we don't have really anything in the

00:50:56.479 --> 00:50:58.419
way of a national curriculum anywhere, right?

00:50:58.499 --> 00:51:01.839
It's like all the states get so much leeway on what they're going to do.

00:51:01.959 --> 00:51:05.579
And then once you break it down into states, we know that all the districts do it differently.

00:51:05.819 --> 00:51:08.959
Parochial schools are different than independent schools and charter schools

00:51:08.959 --> 00:51:12.719
and public schools. And so I'm not sure that it's even a worthwhile thing to

00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:16.699
think about because the fight then is like, what are we going to put in that national curriculum?

00:51:16.999 --> 00:51:21.059
I think the best thing that we can do is give it more time in the classroom,

00:51:21.059 --> 00:51:25.679
because if we look at time in the classroom from the 1940s to today, it's only decreased.

00:51:25.919 --> 00:51:29.779
And the way that we do it is not particularly effective, no matter how you're

00:51:29.779 --> 00:51:33.719
looking at that data. like the nation's report card assessing civics education

00:51:33.719 --> 00:51:37.559
in eighth grade has been stagnant from 1998 until today.

00:51:37.739 --> 00:51:43.539
If we look at APUS test scores for APUS government, it's one of the lowest scoring

00:51:43.539 --> 00:51:47.259
tests every year it's administered except in 2024.

00:51:47.699 --> 00:51:50.559
And at first you might think like, oh my God, they're really teaching it.

00:51:50.659 --> 00:51:51.379
They're turning it around.

00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:56.419
But instead what they did in 2024 is they recalibrated the grading because not

00:51:56.419 --> 00:51:58.339
enough kids were getting college credit for it.

00:51:58.419 --> 00:52:02.319
And so we haven't taught them different things. We've grade inflated in a way

00:52:02.319 --> 00:52:05.799
that says, like, just because you don't know as much means you're going to get passed here anyhow.

00:52:06.179 --> 00:52:10.139
So I don't think the question is, like, should it be one nationalized standardizer?

00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:11.279
I don't have an answer to that.

00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:15.679
The only answer I have is we need more time, and it needs to happen at a lot

00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:17.759
of different entry points, not just in the schools.

00:52:17.939 --> 00:52:20.859
But you need to see it in your homes. You should see it in your communities.

00:52:20.879 --> 00:52:22.379
We should have it as a value.

00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:27.079
And frankly, as one of the best things about being in America is the agency

00:52:27.079 --> 00:52:28.259
to change your government.

00:52:28.479 --> 00:52:31.179
So it's not something that should be like, that's for nerds or that's for evil

00:52:31.179 --> 00:52:33.679
people. It's like, no, this should be for all of us. It's amazing.

00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:37.479
Yeah. And I share your enthusiasm in that.

00:52:37.579 --> 00:52:40.399
And that's the reason why I cast a question like that is because,

00:52:40.399 --> 00:52:45.539
you know, if you're going to be a citizen in the United States, you have to take a test.

00:52:46.136 --> 00:52:51.216
And and they have these flashcards and all this stuff. And if you've I'm sure

00:52:51.216 --> 00:52:52.936
you've looked at those flashcards.

00:52:53.216 --> 00:52:59.136
I've looked at them and and I'm like, I know a lot of my friends would not pass

00:52:59.136 --> 00:53:02.696
this if their citizenship was on the line. Right. Yeah.

00:53:03.216 --> 00:53:07.716
And schools are moving to do that. So that's sort of a wave of educational reform

00:53:07.716 --> 00:53:08.696
that's happening right now.

00:53:08.876 --> 00:53:11.596
Schools are like, we're going to make our students pass the citizen test.

00:53:11.736 --> 00:53:15.956
And what they mean in most of their actual implementations is they're going

00:53:15.956 --> 00:53:18.576
to give 10 questions from the 100-question list.

00:53:18.576 --> 00:53:22.896
And if you get six right, you will be considered as someone who's passed.

00:53:22.896 --> 00:53:25.956
Now, do I think that's actually an effective way to teach civics? No.

00:53:26.156 --> 00:53:29.276
Do you ask educational experts about it? Is that an effective way? No.

00:53:29.456 --> 00:53:33.436
We know experiential and action civics are far more useful in terms of letting

00:53:33.436 --> 00:53:36.576
students understand their own agency and how they do this process.

00:53:36.896 --> 00:53:42.636
Can they remember some pieces of historical information and tell it to you with a 60% success rate? Yes.

00:53:42.816 --> 00:53:47.776
And so I don't think that's like the way to do it, but I do understand that

00:53:47.776 --> 00:53:50.556
that on paper seems like a good thing. And there's plenty of states that are

00:53:50.556 --> 00:53:53.396
moving to say, like, well, we're going to have our students pass the citizenship test.

00:53:53.556 --> 00:53:56.716
I'm like, you mean your students are going to have multiple chances to take

00:53:56.716 --> 00:53:59.096
a test where they have to get 60 percent of the answers right?

00:53:59.356 --> 00:54:02.876
OK, I don't know that that's like the most effective way to do it. Yeah.

00:54:03.516 --> 00:54:09.096
Yeah. You know, this you put a map in the book and it was really,

00:54:09.176 --> 00:54:13.216
really scary because it was like I was looking at Nebraska. Right.

00:54:13.776 --> 00:54:16.936
Nebraska has the most unique system. Right.

00:54:17.959 --> 00:54:24.579
It's the only one that's unicameral, and yet there is no requirement for the students to learn that.

00:54:24.779 --> 00:54:28.599
And I'm like going, if there would be any state, it would seem like it would

00:54:28.599 --> 00:54:32.219
be Nebraska, because Louisiana, they have a different kind of law.

00:54:33.139 --> 00:54:37.959
But, I mean, you know, Nebraska is the only state that's unicameral,

00:54:37.979 --> 00:54:43.459
so you think that they would take some pride in teaching that and helping citizens

00:54:43.459 --> 00:54:49.719
understand how that works compared to the other 49 states where they have a bicameral system.

00:54:50.679 --> 00:54:53.919
Yeah, and that's not to say that there's no schools in Nebraska teaching it.

00:54:54.019 --> 00:54:57.939
It's just to say that there's not a statewide requirement that this gets taught

00:54:57.939 --> 00:55:01.999
in any of the K through 12 years. Nebraska is also unique in that it splits

00:55:01.999 --> 00:55:05.799
its electoral college votes in a way that only itself and Maine does.

00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:09.559
All the states have sort of like quirks that are particular to them.

00:55:09.699 --> 00:55:13.599
And the reason that I put that map in there is to show that it's a very hard

00:55:13.599 --> 00:55:17.139
problem to get your head around in the first place. When we say like, what are they learning?

00:55:17.319 --> 00:55:21.579
And it's like, well, the answer is not enough. But I can't tell you the specific

00:55:21.579 --> 00:55:24.799
thing in every piece because it's so multifaceted.

00:55:25.019 --> 00:55:27.839
And when it gets right down to it, it kind of depends on like who happens to

00:55:27.839 --> 00:55:30.939
be in that classroom. It's really hard to say, here's what all the students

00:55:30.939 --> 00:55:33.339
are exposed to because they're not exposed to the same things.

00:55:36.339 --> 00:55:42.399
So what is what should be the bare minimum an American citizen should know about their government?

00:55:43.159 --> 00:55:45.939
Well, I mean, it depends on what you want them to be able to do.

00:55:46.059 --> 00:55:47.859
But I'll tell you what I think is lacking right now.

00:55:48.039 --> 00:55:52.399
I think there's a really big piece that's lacking around what does the Constitution say?

00:55:52.539 --> 00:55:55.679
And what I mean by that is most of our students get out through K through 12

00:55:55.679 --> 00:55:59.779
and they will never have read it from beginning to end. It's only about 19 pages

00:55:59.779 --> 00:56:04.279
and every person who's ever like played a board game knows that it goes better

00:56:04.279 --> 00:56:06.019
if you understand the rules of the game.

00:56:06.179 --> 00:56:09.519
And so I think it's important that we before we set our kids free and be like,

00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:13.359
go ahead, take on the rights of voting and all the other responsibilities of adulthood.

00:56:13.755 --> 00:56:17.275
They should understand the rules that are underlying that. I find that in Intro

00:56:17.275 --> 00:56:20.355
to American Politics, that's one of the most eye-opening things because they're

00:56:20.355 --> 00:56:22.835
like, oh, no one ever taught me this or I never read this.

00:56:22.975 --> 00:56:25.735
Or they think it was written in like old English and they're not going to be

00:56:25.735 --> 00:56:29.535
able to get it. It's like, no, everyone, this really spells out a lot of things.

00:56:29.635 --> 00:56:30.655
So I think that's part one.

00:56:30.895 --> 00:56:35.075
I think part two is federalism is so incredibly important.

00:56:35.175 --> 00:56:38.715
And when we interviewed teachers across the United States, that's something

00:56:38.715 --> 00:56:41.395
that they themselves said, like a lot of them don't have a grasp on it.

00:56:41.395 --> 00:56:44.675
They don't know that the federal government does different things than the state

00:56:44.675 --> 00:56:46.255
government, than the local government.

00:56:46.435 --> 00:56:49.855
And what I find is most college students that I interact with don't appreciate

00:56:49.855 --> 00:56:54.375
that many of the things they care about, stuff like marijuana legalization or

00:56:54.375 --> 00:56:59.255
access to reproductive health care or access to guns, is mostly controlled at the state level.

00:56:59.435 --> 00:57:02.255
Those are not really federal questions right now, but they don't even really

00:57:02.255 --> 00:57:06.615
know how that system works. I also think we need to have more opportunities

00:57:06.615 --> 00:57:10.155
to build the muscle memory of what it is to have a hard conversation.

00:57:10.675 --> 00:57:16.415
Because we have really over-indexed on like personal sort of like non-annoyance

00:57:16.415 --> 00:57:19.975
where it's like I want to watch my media and listen to my things and not have

00:57:19.975 --> 00:57:23.455
to deal with society and I'm going to hear the opinions that I want to hear anyhow.

00:57:23.455 --> 00:57:28.595
But we need to have these lower stakes, real life engagement with one another

00:57:28.595 --> 00:57:32.495
where we can listen and learn and then express our views.

00:57:32.875 --> 00:57:36.335
And the goal is not, let me convince you I'm right and you're wrong.

00:57:36.535 --> 00:57:40.195
The goal is, let's learn a little bit more about how everyone's coming to the table.

00:57:40.195 --> 00:57:43.855
And I think if we don't give them those opportunities because we're so focused

00:57:43.855 --> 00:57:49.215
on SAT scores and ACT scores, then we are really hurting ourselves because that's

00:57:49.215 --> 00:57:51.795
the enterprise. It is a persuasion game.

00:57:51.955 --> 00:57:54.955
It is about attention. It is about learning from each other.

00:57:55.075 --> 00:57:59.275
But if we don't practice how to do that, it's not surprising that we don't get good outcomes.

00:58:00.075 --> 00:58:02.575
Yeah, yeah. I definitely agree with that.

00:58:03.375 --> 00:58:08.295
Because if you don't really know anything, it's going to be hard for you to persuade somebody.

00:58:08.795 --> 00:58:14.975
And then the challenge is, you know, if I'm a candidate running for something,

00:58:15.255 --> 00:58:21.295
if you don't have a grasp of what I'm talking about, then I'm not going to be

00:58:21.295 --> 00:58:23.675
able to persuade you because you are confused.

00:58:24.415 --> 00:58:27.595
And I think that's where we get caught up in the conversation.

00:58:28.042 --> 00:58:32.302
Talking points. It's like, okay, well, this issue, so everybody seems to have

00:58:32.302 --> 00:58:34.362
a focus. So we just focus on those issues.

00:58:34.822 --> 00:58:39.602
And it's like on a national scale, that may be important, but on a local level,

00:58:39.942 --> 00:58:43.582
not so much. It just all depends on where you are.

00:58:43.742 --> 00:58:46.482
So yeah, I definitely agree with that.

00:58:46.882 --> 00:58:50.262
And I think that's right. When you say people are confused, it's like you put

00:58:50.262 --> 00:58:55.662
confusion with mistrust or confusion with distrust, that's not a functional

00:58:55.662 --> 00:58:57.522
way to engage in anything.

00:58:57.842 --> 00:59:02.322
Like you wouldn't like your medical system if you said all the doctors are liars

00:59:02.322 --> 00:59:04.522
and cheats and egomaniacs and the system is rigged.

00:59:04.642 --> 00:59:08.302
You have to trust a little bit, but you also need to know that there's stuff to learn.

00:59:08.522 --> 00:59:11.922
And that's something that we really don't have that orientation in politics.

00:59:12.382 --> 00:59:16.762
It's this other sort of like very negative, very bad place.

00:59:16.762 --> 00:59:20.522
When in reality, the fact that most of us have road to drive on,

00:59:20.842 --> 00:59:25.022
clean water to drink, schools that are regulated, regulated airways,

00:59:25.182 --> 00:59:28.502
that's government intervention and it's good, but we don't really think about it that way.

00:59:28.782 --> 00:59:31.722
Yeah, because most people like to say, well, I don't, we don't,

00:59:31.842 --> 00:59:33.542
why do we even need government and all that?

00:59:33.642 --> 00:59:38.122
And I, and I always tell them and people that listen to the podcast, I use this example a lot.

00:59:38.762 --> 00:59:43.742
Just one day, just go and take all the stop signs from your intersection,

00:59:44.282 --> 00:59:49.222
close to your house, just take them all away for a day and watch what happens. Right.

00:59:49.682 --> 00:59:53.162
As that is an example of what government does.

00:59:53.482 --> 00:59:58.742
It's like, you know, that's just a small example, but it politics and government

00:59:58.742 --> 01:00:00.662
is in everything that we do.

01:00:01.402 --> 01:00:05.842
And that's why I feel that we should pay more attention to it.

01:00:05.982 --> 01:00:10.482
I don't want people to be junkies like you and I, but I do want people to have

01:00:10.482 --> 01:00:14.142
a working knowledge so they can function and make intelligent decisions.

01:00:14.944 --> 01:00:18.144
Absolutely. And so the government's inevitable, like you said,

01:00:18.244 --> 01:00:21.784
it's pervasive, it touches everything. But we do sort of have this strange approach

01:00:21.784 --> 01:00:25.384
where we're like, we love police officers, we love first responders,

01:00:25.564 --> 01:00:27.204
we love firemen. But guess what?

01:00:27.424 --> 01:00:30.924
Their budgets don't get allocated unless you have civilian politicians who are

01:00:30.924 --> 01:00:33.984
doing that work. And so you can't really have one without the other.

01:00:34.304 --> 01:00:39.384
And it doesn't help anyone to not know more. We actually all stand to benefit

01:00:39.384 --> 01:00:42.964
if we learn a little bit more, even though it might feel uncomfortable because

01:00:42.964 --> 01:00:46.064
many of us are underpracticed and didn't learn as much as we probably would

01:00:46.064 --> 01:00:47.344
have wanted to when we were younger.

01:00:47.864 --> 01:00:52.584
Yeah. So why do you passionately advocate for parents to teach their children

01:00:52.584 --> 01:00:54.044
about government and civics?

01:00:55.044 --> 01:00:59.064
Well, look, if I could like wave a magic wand, I would do more of this in schools.

01:00:59.064 --> 01:01:02.384
But I can't wave that wand and changing state policy is really hard.

01:01:02.384 --> 01:01:05.904
So that's why I think parents have to be the role models here.

01:01:05.904 --> 01:01:09.604
It's also the case that other people who are doing similar research have shown

01:01:09.604 --> 01:01:12.804
that one of the things that best predicts your child's likelihood to vote,

01:01:13.024 --> 01:01:16.464
their likelihood to be willing to engage in conversations that challenge them,

01:01:16.584 --> 01:01:21.304
and their general proclivity to things like volunteering or mutual aid is best

01:01:21.304 --> 01:01:25.304
influenced by seeing their parents do it or seeing a nice custodial adult,

01:01:25.504 --> 01:01:27.564
someone, you could be a grandparent, could be aunt or uncle,

01:01:27.704 --> 01:01:29.924
but someone in that role where you pass that down.

01:01:30.544 --> 01:01:34.044
And it's okay, I think, for parents and grandparents today to be frustrated

01:01:34.044 --> 01:01:36.224
and be like, well, I never learned this or I don't know enough.

01:01:36.324 --> 01:01:38.244
But we are the adults in the room now.

01:01:38.364 --> 01:01:41.524
And if we want our kids to have something better, it's incumbent upon us to

01:01:41.524 --> 01:01:43.884
say, like, well, we're going to change this. We're going to model what that

01:01:43.884 --> 01:01:45.824
behavior is. It might be uncomfortable.

01:01:46.164 --> 01:01:49.044
It might be new. But it's not a bad thing to do.

01:01:49.164 --> 01:01:53.484
And I also think it's important because parents are the best teachers that our

01:01:53.484 --> 01:01:54.624
kids are ever going to have.

01:01:54.804 --> 01:01:58.504
They learn from what we do and what we don't do. If they never see us vote,

01:01:58.664 --> 01:02:02.024
why would they vote? If they never see us have a conversation with a neighbor

01:02:02.024 --> 01:02:04.204
about like the state of our sidewalks,

01:02:04.284 --> 01:02:06.404
why would they think that that's something they should care about?

01:02:06.604 --> 01:02:10.084
We have to show it to them because if we don't do it, they're learning that it doesn't matter.

01:02:10.844 --> 01:02:15.664
Yeah, because I was the way I was brought up and I noticed that you had you

01:02:15.664 --> 01:02:19.944
credit your civics teacher in high school for being a major influence with you.

01:02:20.484 --> 01:02:26.844
In my life, it was my great aunt. And, you know, whenever I got home from school,

01:02:26.864 --> 01:02:31.884
she lived across the street. So I would go over there first until my parents got home.

01:02:32.424 --> 01:02:36.084
But it was like she would always watch the news. I watched the news with her.

01:02:37.224 --> 01:02:41.224
When I was very, very young, my parents got me a set of encyclopedias,

01:02:41.584 --> 01:02:43.464
world book encyclopedias to date myself.

01:02:44.584 --> 01:02:49.224
And and it was like the president of the United States spread was the most fascinating thing.

01:02:49.364 --> 01:02:52.844
It was like two pages of pictures before we even got into the article.

01:02:52.844 --> 01:02:55.424
Right. And I said, you know, I want to be one of these guys. Right.

01:02:56.424 --> 01:03:00.304
But, you know, my aunt would take me to go vote. Right. Whenever she went to

01:03:00.304 --> 01:03:03.864
vote, she would go. And then, you know, sometimes I would go with my parents.

01:03:04.916 --> 01:03:09.136
You know, whenever or whatever, because in Chicago, the precincts were either

01:03:09.136 --> 01:03:13.176
in somebody's basement or at the church or so it was all walking distance.

01:03:13.696 --> 01:03:18.456
Right. So I was really kind of exposed, but it got to a point where my parents

01:03:18.456 --> 01:03:23.796
were asking me questions about who should I vote for? What's going on?

01:03:23.976 --> 01:03:30.216
You know, I know you pay attention to this, but it's not like that for the majority

01:03:30.216 --> 01:03:32.376
of kids, especially African-American kids.

01:03:32.556 --> 01:03:39.296
So I just, you know, I just really appreciate you as being an advocate,

01:03:39.296 --> 01:03:45.076
pushing for parents to be more engaged in the discussion with their children.

01:03:45.556 --> 01:03:48.956
Well, thank you. And I think it's parents, but it's also all of us as adults,

01:03:48.956 --> 01:03:53.056
because like you said, you never know who your civic role model is going to be. It might be an aunt.

01:03:53.196 --> 01:03:57.076
It might be a neighbor who you happen to hang out with. And if we all are in

01:03:57.076 --> 01:04:02.056
this system together, the little actions that we do for our children reverberate for other children.

01:04:02.296 --> 01:04:06.016
And when you point out that it's different for African-American youth versus

01:04:06.016 --> 01:04:09.616
non-African-American youth, it's also really hard for immigrants who are here

01:04:09.616 --> 01:04:13.256
with parents who didn't grow up in this tradition, because they can't really

01:04:13.256 --> 01:04:15.276
lean on their parents to say, teach me about this.

01:04:15.376 --> 01:04:18.536
And so if we can teach children who had parents who grew up here,

01:04:18.696 --> 01:04:21.816
they can do that sort of connective work of like, oh, well, I'm friends with

01:04:21.816 --> 01:04:25.376
this kid, or oh, I can sort of expand my network or my social circle with this.

01:04:25.476 --> 01:04:29.916
And so the things that we do are not just beneficial for our own little families,

01:04:29.916 --> 01:04:33.756
but it does sort of like spread out and influence other families because it

01:04:33.756 --> 01:04:37.196
changes the culture around it on these little individual choices.

01:04:38.016 --> 01:04:44.676
So my final question is, how does having a better understanding about politics

01:04:44.676 --> 01:04:47.376
contribute to positive mental health?

01:04:47.756 --> 01:04:50.996
Oh, I love this question. There's a lot of different ways, but I'll give you

01:04:50.996 --> 01:04:52.176
sort of the shortest version.

01:04:52.536 --> 01:04:55.796
When we think about the things that plague young people right now,

01:04:55.876 --> 01:05:00.096
a lot of it is depression and social isolation and anxiety about the future.

01:05:00.376 --> 01:05:04.076
All of these things are sort of rooted in not being tethered to something and

01:05:04.076 --> 01:05:05.316
some level of uncertainty.

01:05:05.776 --> 01:05:09.376
And this feels even worse if we have a media environment that exacerbates everything

01:05:09.376 --> 01:05:12.496
with like, here's this breaking news and here's all this stuff and can you believe it?

01:05:12.596 --> 01:05:15.356
But if you can come back to some core things with some certainty,

01:05:15.496 --> 01:05:18.276
like, oh, I've read the Constitution, I actually don't think that's possible.

01:05:18.396 --> 01:05:21.296
Or maybe we'll try this for a little bit and then the courts will step in.

01:05:21.416 --> 01:05:25.696
You can calm those parts of your brain. You're far less likely to be susceptible to misinformation.

01:05:26.116 --> 01:05:29.616
But the second reason that I think knowing more and understanding and doing

01:05:29.616 --> 01:05:33.256
more of your politics is beneficial for mental health is at the local level,

01:05:33.396 --> 01:05:37.436
the stuff that requires you to repeatedly show up in person, it gives you purpose.

01:05:37.436 --> 01:05:41.796
It gives you a sense of community. It gives you the ability to understand your own agency.

01:05:41.996 --> 01:05:46.196
And all of those things are shown to more positively influence mental health

01:05:46.196 --> 01:05:49.456
than social isolation, doom scrolling, thinking that, you know,

01:05:49.556 --> 01:05:51.916
the world's going to end because you're hearing it from every direction.

01:05:52.096 --> 01:05:55.476
If you can just change these small parts and whatever interests you,

01:05:55.676 --> 01:05:59.376
whatever's important in your local level, then you're going to be a better rooted,

01:05:59.856 --> 01:06:03.036
more functioning human because you have an understanding of the world and you

01:06:03.036 --> 01:06:04.336
see yourself as a part of it.

01:06:04.952 --> 01:06:08.332
Yeah. And, you know, when I saw that in the book, I was like,

01:06:08.452 --> 01:06:16.212
OK, yeah, because this, you know, I'm a big advocate on on mental health and

01:06:16.212 --> 01:06:19.872
and having a strong, positive mental health.

01:06:19.872 --> 01:06:23.952
I think it's just as important as your physical health, if not more.

01:06:24.392 --> 01:06:29.372
So, you know, for you to address it, you know, about being more,

01:06:29.712 --> 01:06:37.412
having more of a political efficacy relates to being more positive in your mental

01:06:37.412 --> 01:06:40.132
attitude about society and life in general.

01:06:40.132 --> 01:06:43.712
I thought that was a really nice touch, and I greatly appreciate that.

01:06:44.392 --> 01:06:46.072
I didn't see anything.

01:06:46.992 --> 01:06:51.732
Sometimes when I research, you know, for my guests and especially professors,

01:06:51.732 --> 01:06:57.552
they got like that little grade thing where you can go online and grade your teachers and all that.

01:06:57.732 --> 01:07:02.572
So I didn't see anything pop up on you. But if you were, and I said it was last,

01:07:02.672 --> 01:07:09.292
but I got to ask this, if what would you, what have you seen as far as you being a professor,

01:07:09.652 --> 01:07:13.472
students say, because there was one, they said, she likes to make us read,

01:07:13.632 --> 01:07:14.972
you know what I'm saying? So what is it?

01:07:15.172 --> 01:07:20.752
What is it that when students review you, they say, okay, Professor Cormack's going to make us do what?

01:07:21.418 --> 01:07:26.198
Yeah, so I have some of my students who like wrote passages that are included

01:07:26.198 --> 01:07:29.338
at the end of the book. So it's like knowable what they think about me.

01:07:29.518 --> 01:07:33.998
I think the things that they they kind of take from the class is that I make

01:07:33.998 --> 01:07:37.078
them inhabit viewpoints that they don't naturally come to.

01:07:37.418 --> 01:07:41.058
And what I mean by that is we do these debates in my class where they don't

01:07:41.058 --> 01:07:42.518
get to pick what side they're on.

01:07:42.718 --> 01:07:46.118
And that means sometimes they have to step into a perspective that they have

01:07:46.118 --> 01:07:47.478
not previously thought about.

01:07:47.618 --> 01:07:50.898
And at first it's uncomfortable and they don't like it. But then I tell them,

01:07:50.978 --> 01:07:54.398
I'm like, guys, this makes you better at understanding your own positions and

01:07:54.398 --> 01:07:56.878
values by trying to take the other side for a little bit.

01:07:57.038 --> 01:08:02.298
And so I think that sort of like educational friction and like poking is something that I do.

01:08:02.438 --> 01:08:06.158
And at first they don't like it. And then they come away with a greater appreciation

01:08:06.158 --> 01:08:09.638
because like, oh, that is actually a neat way to learn is to go hang out with

01:08:09.638 --> 01:08:12.538
the other side's arguments for a while and see the value in them.

01:08:12.538 --> 01:08:17.878
I had a professor that made me take the pro-apartheid position.

01:08:19.478 --> 01:08:24.478
That also dates how old I am. When we was in college, apartheid was still there in South Africa.

01:08:24.478 --> 01:08:29.938
So I was the captain of the debate team that had to take the pro-apartheid decision.

01:08:29.938 --> 01:08:36.898
Now, you know, what I did was I literally wrote the General Counsel of South Africa.

01:08:37.118 --> 01:08:39.978
The closest one from where I was in school was to Chicago.

01:08:40.878 --> 01:08:45.878
And they sent me like a box of stuff and we cremated my classmates.

01:08:46.318 --> 01:08:49.578
You know, it was it was like we were like P.W. Botha's kids,

01:08:49.738 --> 01:08:51.218
you know, the way we went at it.

01:08:51.618 --> 01:08:58.438
But she would she she she said, that's how I want you to approach issues.

01:08:58.438 --> 01:09:03.578
We want you to be able to dissect both sides so you can make an intelligent argument.

01:09:03.718 --> 01:09:07.758
Whichever side you're on, if you understand both sides of the argument,

01:09:07.978 --> 01:09:09.678
then it makes your argument better.

01:09:09.858 --> 01:09:12.778
So I'm glad that you used that approach.

01:09:13.829 --> 01:09:17.269
So, Professor, if people want to get in touch with you, if they want to get

01:09:17.269 --> 01:09:19.569
your books, how can they do that?

01:09:20.169 --> 01:09:23.429
The book is sold anywhere that you buy books online and spaces.

01:09:23.729 --> 01:09:27.309
So like Amazon and Barnes and Noble and Bookshop, all of those are equally good.

01:09:27.689 --> 01:09:31.469
You can also go to howtoraiseacitizen.com. And if you want me to like sign it

01:09:31.469 --> 01:09:34.649
or inscribe it or send it as a gift to someone, if you order it directly from

01:09:34.649 --> 01:09:37.769
me, I can do that. And I've been sending those out throughout the United States.

01:09:38.329 --> 01:09:42.329
I think the easiest way to contact me is probably like over email or through

01:09:42.329 --> 01:09:46.829
Instagram. Those are the places I most often inhabit online. I'm so easy to find.

01:09:47.029 --> 01:09:49.149
How to Raise a Citizen has my contact information.

01:09:49.449 --> 01:09:51.969
And then on Instagram, I'm also How to Raise a Citizen.

01:09:53.069 --> 01:09:59.729
Well, Professor Lindsey Cormack, I greatly appreciate your passion on teaching,

01:09:59.729 --> 01:10:02.389
not just the students in the classroom,

01:10:02.609 --> 01:10:07.509
but encouraging parents throughout the country to be more engaged in teaching

01:10:07.509 --> 01:10:12.109
because it's just something that's really, really needed.

01:10:12.829 --> 01:10:16.509
And as somebody that is actually has to ask people for votes,

01:10:16.729 --> 01:10:21.929
it's comforting to know that there is somebody out there trying to teach people

01:10:21.929 --> 01:10:28.009
the importance of voting and what they need to be voting for and who you're

01:10:28.009 --> 01:10:29.949
voting for, what position it is.

01:10:30.189 --> 01:10:33.769
So thank you for that. And again, thank you for coming on the podcast.

01:10:34.029 --> 01:10:35.029
I greatly appreciate that.

01:10:35.369 --> 01:10:39.969
And thank you for doing this work and for having me. I had a really nice time. Yes, ma'am.

01:10:40.489 --> 01:10:43.789
All right, guys, we're going to catch you all on the other side. Music.

01:10:44.400 --> 01:10:54.480
Music.

01:10:54.546 --> 01:10:59.586
All right. And we are back. So I want to thank Will Cooper,

01:11:00.246 --> 01:11:08.326
Mike McKinley, and Lindsey Cormack for coming on the show and talking about

01:11:08.326 --> 01:11:09.546
their respective books.

01:11:09.906 --> 01:11:15.746
And as always, just offering great insight into what's happening.

01:11:15.746 --> 01:11:22.486
I really hope that y'all will get those books, especially for parents.

01:11:23.086 --> 01:11:26.566
Professor Cormack's book about how to raise a citizen is very,

01:11:26.686 --> 01:11:31.126
very good and very encouraging.

01:11:31.746 --> 01:11:36.286
Right. You know, she lays out the challenges that's out there,

01:11:36.286 --> 01:11:41.726
but it's encouraging that, you know, you can teach it.

01:11:41.726 --> 01:11:46.446
And being the professor that she is, if there's some things you need to brush

01:11:46.446 --> 01:11:49.406
up on, she puts that in the book as well, right?

01:11:50.666 --> 01:11:55.866
Because it's really, really important for our children to be better citizens

01:11:55.866 --> 01:12:00.506
and maybe not make the mistakes that we have made, right?

01:12:01.966 --> 01:12:06.406
You know, for those of you who are doing that, great. It's still a good book

01:12:06.406 --> 01:12:08.066
to kind of refresh you on some things.

01:12:08.066 --> 01:12:13.566
If you are not doing that because you believe that it's taboo to talk about

01:12:13.566 --> 01:12:19.326
politics and all that stuff, yeah, get over that and teach your kids the basics, okay?

01:12:20.006 --> 01:12:23.626
As for Will and Mike's book, it's a great read.

01:12:24.266 --> 01:12:30.586
It's a thriller if you didn't gather that from the interview.

01:12:31.006 --> 01:12:37.406
And it is telling you when you start reading that book, it'll flow.

01:12:38.066 --> 01:12:44.606
It is one of the easiest reads as far as fiction that I've read, right?

01:12:44.906 --> 01:12:49.406
I mean, it's just, you know, once you start turning that page and page and the

01:12:49.406 --> 01:12:51.106
next thing you know, it's like, oh, my God.

01:12:51.386 --> 01:12:53.306
It's like I'm almost finished with this thing.

01:12:54.146 --> 01:13:01.026
It's really, really compelling and it's really, really a good read and entertaining and all that.

01:13:01.026 --> 01:13:09.266
And I really hope that they can make that into a series or a movie or whatever

01:13:09.266 --> 01:13:13.706
the case may be, because to see that on the screen would be would be awesome.

01:13:13.966 --> 01:13:17.526
But but read the book because the book is always better than the movie. I'm sorry.

01:13:19.206 --> 01:13:23.726
That's just me. But the books are always better than the movie.

01:13:24.466 --> 01:13:30.506
All right. So I want to close out with this. and,

01:13:31.491 --> 01:13:34.271
It was mentioned in the news that, you know,

01:13:34.471 --> 01:13:40.071
Representative Al Green from Texas was censured by the House of Representatives

01:13:40.071 --> 01:13:49.251
for basically getting up and pointing his cane at Donald Trump and chastising

01:13:49.251 --> 01:13:51.291
the president about cutting Medicaid.

01:13:52.391 --> 01:13:56.391
And, you know, Representative Green knew what he was doing was out of order

01:13:56.391 --> 01:14:00.311
and he willingly accepted the censure.

01:14:00.311 --> 01:14:07.431
He knew that he deserved that, and I thought that him making it clear that he

01:14:07.431 --> 01:14:10.471
didn't have anything personal against the Speaker or anything like that,

01:14:10.591 --> 01:14:13.371
the rules are the rules, and he knew he was breaking the rules.

01:14:14.111 --> 01:14:24.171
He said he did it with intentionality, and he handled that professionally and gracefully.

01:14:25.971 --> 01:14:29.871
Here's my take on the whole thing. I never would have been in the room.

01:14:30.331 --> 01:14:35.891
Right. Now, some members walked out when they kicked Representative Green out.

01:14:36.251 --> 01:14:41.571
But I am of the opinion that none of them should have been there in the first place.

01:14:41.571 --> 01:14:49.371
I wanted the visual of all the sycophants, the Republicans,

01:14:50.171 --> 01:14:59.711
cheering their avatar on and those who are the opposition not give them an audience.

01:15:00.531 --> 01:15:06.331
Right. Because the biggest challenge we have in this society is that we have

01:15:06.331 --> 01:15:08.611
to give him an audience because he is the president.

01:15:09.291 --> 01:15:14.311
We have to pay attention to what he says. And it was just a simple disagreement

01:15:14.311 --> 01:15:16.711
about policy and direction.

01:15:17.311 --> 01:15:22.711
That's one thing. But when you are systematically destroying the very nation

01:15:22.711 --> 01:15:26.271
that we all live in, it's a whole different conversation.

01:15:26.911 --> 01:15:29.991
And it's something that we don't need anymore.

01:15:30.681 --> 01:15:37.361
To actively support, right, or give the appearance of supporting,

01:15:37.541 --> 01:15:39.641
or give the appearance that this is normal.

01:15:40.501 --> 01:15:45.301
And I think if the Democrats had not been in the room at all,

01:15:45.521 --> 01:15:50.461
I think on both the House and the Senate side, I think that would have sent

01:15:50.461 --> 01:15:54.181
a clear message that this is not a normal time.

01:15:55.701 --> 01:15:59.261
And, you know, the reporters were waiting.

01:15:59.941 --> 01:16:04.901
They were actually kind of hoping that the Democrats would walk out.

01:16:05.861 --> 01:16:09.181
And, you know, that would have been the story. You know what I'm saying?

01:16:09.241 --> 01:16:12.781
They would have covered what he said, but the story would have been the Democrats,

01:16:13.501 --> 01:16:19.361
you know, and, you know, Senator Slotkin basically got good reviews on her

01:16:19.361 --> 01:16:20.881
response to his address.

01:16:21.581 --> 01:16:29.661
But the reality was that that should have been it as far as public appearance.

01:16:30.661 --> 01:16:36.421
It, you know, members of the Democratic Party are in a tough situation,

01:16:36.761 --> 01:16:37.781
especially in Congress,

01:16:38.901 --> 01:16:47.601
because they do not have the numbers, right, to push an agenda or really to

01:16:47.601 --> 01:16:49.981
stop a lot of the bad stuff that's happening.

01:16:51.561 --> 01:16:58.201
But if those members of Congress that have never served in a state legislature

01:16:58.201 --> 01:17:04.461
before would take their leave from the Black members who actually have served

01:17:04.461 --> 01:17:06.421
in state legislatures before,

01:17:06.421 --> 01:17:14.881
I think they would have better strategies of how to deal with this time.

01:17:14.881 --> 01:17:19.861
Because black members in state legislatures have always been outnumbered, right?

01:17:20.361 --> 01:17:26.061
It's one thing to be outnumbered as a party, but to be outnumbered just because

01:17:26.061 --> 01:17:28.441
of your race is a whole different conversation.

01:17:28.441 --> 01:17:32.941
And that's what black people have had to deal with throughout this political

01:17:32.941 --> 01:17:37.321
process, at least since the end of Reconstruction, right?

01:17:37.321 --> 01:17:46.581
So, to me, if there is any time where leadership.

01:17:47.868 --> 01:17:52.608
And advice needs to be followed. It should be the black members who have dealt

01:17:52.608 --> 01:17:56.248
with being outnumbered all their political lives.

01:17:56.908 --> 01:18:03.888
Because we've had to be creative in our protests and the way that we utilize

01:18:03.888 --> 01:18:10.928
the rules, the way that we had to strategize to primarily stop bad stuff.

01:18:11.028 --> 01:18:14.448
But every now and then get some good stuff passed. Right.

01:18:15.048 --> 01:18:20.788
A lot of times if we got some passes because of our individual moxie and relationships

01:18:20.788 --> 01:18:24.928
that we had put together on both sides of the aisle to get some stuff done that

01:18:24.928 --> 01:18:31.188
needed to be done that could pass the political mustard test. Right.

01:18:31.828 --> 01:18:40.308
But the reality is that sometimes you just got to show out a little bit.

01:18:41.208 --> 01:18:44.508
But, you know, I'm a member of a,

01:18:44.548 --> 01:18:52.448
I'm a former member of a caucus that literally had a member bring a mule train

01:18:52.448 --> 01:18:58.468
to the Mississippi State Capitol to highlight an issue.

01:18:58.768 --> 01:19:01.108
Right. I've watched it.

01:19:01.866 --> 01:19:06.666
The entire Black Caucus get up and speak on a bill to kill it, right?

01:19:07.526 --> 01:19:15.646
I've watched us walk out of a state of the state address, you know, to send a message.

01:19:16.446 --> 01:19:22.766
I've seen us all vote no for a particular appropriation to send a message to

01:19:22.766 --> 01:19:26.446
that agency that you need to do right by Black folk, right?

01:19:26.446 --> 01:19:31.546
There's various ways. I mean, you use the rules to read the bills and slow the

01:19:31.546 --> 01:19:37.826
process down so you can negotiate and figure out a way to fix some stuff, right?

01:19:37.966 --> 01:19:42.046
Even if it's not the bill that you're fighting over, slow the process down.

01:19:42.466 --> 01:19:46.266
There's a myriad of things you can do, right?

01:19:46.466 --> 01:19:53.666
And if you understand the rules, if you master the rules, you can do it, even as a minority.

01:19:54.526 --> 01:19:58.066
I've seen it happen. I've done it. Right.

01:19:59.626 --> 01:20:06.166
So. To me, if they had asked little me, what should we do?

01:20:06.586 --> 01:20:09.166
I would have told them, don't go.

01:20:10.046 --> 01:20:14.426
I probably wouldn't even been at the Capitol building, to be honest,

01:20:14.526 --> 01:20:17.586
because it wouldn't have been really important for me to talk to the press.

01:20:17.766 --> 01:20:21.906
I think me not being in the chamber was my statement.

01:20:22.446 --> 01:20:28.546
Right. But I wouldn't have I wouldn't have been in the room. at all.

01:20:29.706 --> 01:20:35.546
And, you know, there's one particular representative that, had I been in a room

01:20:35.546 --> 01:20:41.226
and I saw it, Representative Green probably wouldn't have been the only one censored, right?

01:20:41.866 --> 01:20:46.946
Because it was one Democrat, I think it was the lady from New Mexico,

01:20:47.606 --> 01:20:50.146
was holding up a sign saying this is not normal.

01:20:50.146 --> 01:20:58.226
And a Republican, a man, slapped it down out of her hand or snatched it and threw it, something.

01:20:58.666 --> 01:21:01.506
But he physically came at her.

01:21:02.306 --> 01:21:05.846
If I had seen that, that would have been the last time he would have done that.

01:21:06.106 --> 01:21:13.666
And I just, I have no problem saying that because you don't assault fellow members

01:21:13.666 --> 01:21:16.946
and especially a man assaulting a woman in that chamber.

01:21:17.066 --> 01:21:19.366
That's just not, that's not cool, right?

01:21:21.286 --> 01:21:23.306
So I probably would have got in trouble for that.

01:21:24.543 --> 01:21:28.023
You know, and they probably would have came down a little harder on me than

01:21:28.023 --> 01:21:29.143
they did Representative Green.

01:21:29.623 --> 01:21:36.063
But I'm just telling you, you know, it's like that's why I don't think the Democrats

01:21:36.063 --> 01:21:37.603
should have even been in the room.

01:21:38.183 --> 01:21:43.123
So they wouldn't have had those kind of moments. So the nation would just get

01:21:43.123 --> 01:21:49.243
to see them showing out and acting the fool and make their judgment that way.

01:21:49.883 --> 01:21:54.123
Because, you know, people that's on their side and say, ah, they didn't even show up and blah, blah.

01:21:54.543 --> 01:22:00.563
Bro, it's like Representative Green and Representative Crockett and all those

01:22:00.563 --> 01:22:06.963
Democrats from Texas, they were alive when the Democrats in the state of Texas,

01:22:07.203 --> 01:22:08.183
in the state legislature,

01:22:08.443 --> 01:22:13.943
literally left the state so these folks wouldn't have a legal quorum,

01:22:14.423 --> 01:22:16.743
right, to conduct business.

01:22:17.563 --> 01:22:21.043
They literally were trying to send the Texas Rangers after these people.

01:22:21.563 --> 01:22:24.943
And they were doing interviews and they wouldn't disclose their location.

01:22:25.203 --> 01:22:29.183
They hung out for a week outside the Capitol building, shut it down.

01:22:29.523 --> 01:22:31.903
Because they were tired of the railroad.

01:22:32.283 --> 01:22:35.083
They were tired of the games that were being played.

01:22:36.003 --> 01:22:44.903
Because they understood that these decisions that are being made impact people's lives. Literally.

01:22:45.943 --> 01:22:49.603
Not just whether they got a job or not, but whether they live or die,

01:22:50.043 --> 01:22:53.523
whether they can eat. That's where we are now.

01:22:55.363 --> 01:22:59.583
And, you know, drastic times call for drastic measures.

01:23:01.163 --> 01:23:05.923
There's an old saying that I always try to live by is that, you know,

01:23:05.983 --> 01:23:09.963
a politician thinks of the next election, but a statesman thinks about the next generation.

01:23:11.292 --> 01:23:15.852
And if we're going to have an effort to teach people about the process,

01:23:16.232 --> 01:23:19.692
then we've got to have a process left for them to participate in.

01:23:20.232 --> 01:23:24.772
And at the rate we're going, that might be in question. Now,

01:23:24.772 --> 01:23:26.632
not might be, it is in question.

01:23:28.692 --> 01:23:35.472
So I would have encouraged my colleagues, including Leader Jeffries and Leader

01:23:35.472 --> 01:23:40.992
Schumer, not to be in the room, not to shake anybody's hand, nothing.

01:23:41.292 --> 01:23:44.072
Because there's nothing cordial about what's going on.

01:23:44.392 --> 01:23:47.932
There's nothing fake cordial about what's going on.

01:23:48.532 --> 01:23:54.812
The image that the American people should have seen was one half of the room empty.

01:23:57.232 --> 01:24:05.452
And proceed to just go to town. Because even with them being there and showing respect for the office,

01:24:05.452 --> 01:24:11.112
you literally had members on the Republican side introducing bills saying that

01:24:11.112 --> 01:24:14.552
we're going to kick all the Democrats off committees.

01:24:15.872 --> 01:24:19.012
I mean, it is what it is, people.

01:24:19.652 --> 01:24:25.572
And it's time that Democrats take the gloves off.

01:24:26.839 --> 01:24:34.219
You know, and this line has been paraphrased, and I'm not quoting the line exactly right.

01:24:34.699 --> 01:24:41.859
But it was a scene in The MacK where one of the pimps was confronting the Mack,

01:24:42.079 --> 01:24:48.599
the main character in the story, about one of his prostitutes being stolen.

01:24:50.399 --> 01:24:56.399
Where the guy that played it was Max Julien. and he had this line, and I'm paraphrasing.

01:24:56.559 --> 01:25:03.599
He said, we can handle this like gentlemen, but we can get into some gangster shit, right?

01:25:07.199 --> 01:25:10.719
So I don't think we can handle it like ladies and gentlemen.

01:25:11.539 --> 01:25:16.859
I don't think we can. I think we've gotten past that point. I think we need

01:25:16.859 --> 01:25:24.919
to send a message and maybe by sending the message, we can get back to regular dialogue.

01:25:25.199 --> 01:25:29.579
But until we get back to that, I think it's time to take the gloves off.

01:25:29.679 --> 01:25:32.079
I think it's time for us to do some drastic.

01:25:32.899 --> 01:25:37.459
That was an opportunity to do some drastic. Not showing up at all would have

01:25:37.459 --> 01:25:38.679
sent a national message.

01:25:39.359 --> 01:25:45.699
And then along with, you know, Senator Slotkin making her remarks,

01:25:46.019 --> 01:25:48.379
then it should have been a unified message.

01:25:48.579 --> 01:25:52.979
It's like, we are not going to normalize tyranny.

01:25:53.639 --> 01:25:59.359
We're not going to normalize authoritarianism. We're not going to normalize

01:25:59.359 --> 01:26:07.819
what you are seeing in these first few days of the Trump administration because it is not normal.

01:26:08.059 --> 01:26:09.719
This is not a normal time.

01:26:10.319 --> 01:26:13.219
Governor Walz was right. These people are weird.

01:26:14.059 --> 01:26:21.259
These people are not normal. It is not OK. If you get all your news from Fox

01:26:21.259 --> 01:26:28.319
or OAN or Newsmax, you are not getting even a third of the story.

01:26:29.567 --> 01:26:33.387
You're being force-fed stuff because they're trying to take advantage of your

01:26:33.387 --> 01:26:36.627
limited knowledge of the process, right?

01:26:37.447 --> 01:26:42.507
I can say that because even though I'm not a regular watcher, I watch enough.

01:26:43.727 --> 01:26:49.847
And I read what's on X and other platforms.

01:26:51.327 --> 01:26:54.027
And so I know what you're being force-fed.

01:26:55.987 --> 01:27:02.187
So I think that would have been a shock to your system. If you saw that half of the room was empty.

01:27:02.887 --> 01:27:10.367
Now, you could accept what that story was as it would have been told to you

01:27:10.367 --> 01:27:14.207
from those outlets, those conservative outlets.

01:27:14.587 --> 01:27:19.347
But human, the human instinct is to inquire a little more.

01:27:19.847 --> 01:27:25.147
And you would have gotten a response as to why they didn't show up.

01:27:25.407 --> 01:27:27.267
But that would have got your attention.

01:27:27.667 --> 01:27:33.887
Right. And as for folks that support the Democrats, that would have been a sign

01:27:33.887 --> 01:27:36.027
that, all right, game on.

01:27:36.367 --> 01:27:41.687
Because right now, Republicans are frustrated because they're not addressing

01:27:41.687 --> 01:27:43.067
the cost of living issues.

01:27:43.887 --> 01:27:47.047
And they want to get answers as to why.

01:27:48.767 --> 01:27:52.247
And on the other side, the Democratic

01:27:52.247 --> 01:27:56.427
side, people are frustrated because it's like, what are we doing?

01:27:57.827 --> 01:28:04.127
How what's the game plan how are we going to fight this right and i heard one

01:28:04.127 --> 01:28:09.047
announcer and i love her for doing it because i love sports analogies she got

01:28:09.047 --> 01:28:14.147
on her show and said this is just the first quarter y'all we still got a whole

01:28:14.147 --> 01:28:17.107
game to play we still can win this thing,

01:28:17.787 --> 01:28:21.587
we just can't get frustrated we got to stay focused.

01:28:23.490 --> 01:28:28.070
No matter how they came out the gate, we still can win this thing. Right.

01:28:28.790 --> 01:28:32.030
And that's the mindset we have to have. If we are really,

01:28:32.270 --> 01:28:40.970
really concerned and really, really engaged about having an America that lives

01:28:40.970 --> 01:28:43.870
up to its creed, then we can't give up now.

01:28:43.970 --> 01:28:46.310
We can't get frustrated. We got to start fighting.

01:28:46.770 --> 01:28:52.290
We got to change that playbook. Got to get off the script and start,

01:28:52.510 --> 01:28:55.470
as Hank Stram said, matriculating down the field.

01:28:56.130 --> 01:29:01.090
And the field is politics, the game.

01:29:01.610 --> 01:29:09.190
We've got to start making a difference to show that this is not normal.

01:29:09.610 --> 01:29:16.730
And there is a group, there are a group of people who are fighting to bring normal back.

01:29:17.570 --> 01:29:22.570
Or, to be honest, some semblance of normal, some semblance of order,

01:29:22.790 --> 01:29:25.090
some semblance of calm, right?

01:29:25.210 --> 01:29:30.970
It's time, again, to take the gloves off. It's time to fight.

01:29:32.570 --> 01:29:38.050
And if we are going to win this, then we have to be all in.

01:29:38.330 --> 01:29:43.090
We can't half to do it. We can't be on the fence.

01:29:43.090 --> 01:29:48.250
You know there's a couple of people this guy from New Hampshire and this lady

01:29:48.250 --> 01:29:54.590
from Washington State yeah you know in a different time in a different place

01:29:54.590 --> 01:29:56.770
the way that y'all are playing politics,

01:29:57.650 --> 01:30:02.930
but you know you trying to censor everybody you know for whatever favor you

01:30:02.930 --> 01:30:08.530
think that is or I don't know you know I'm not gonna,

01:30:09.770 --> 01:30:11.770
really grill y'all about that but,

01:30:12.931 --> 01:30:20.131
Yeah, the normal way of thinking in a political sense right now at the federal level.

01:30:20.791 --> 01:30:25.531
Yeah, you're going to have to kick that habit and you're going to have to get

01:30:25.531 --> 01:30:29.231
with the program and you're going to have to fight for what you want.

01:30:29.371 --> 01:30:34.691
Because I know all you're thinking about is, I want to get reelected. Great.

01:30:35.151 --> 01:30:40.391
But if there's no process for you to get elected in, what difference does that make?

01:30:41.051 --> 01:30:47.711
It's time to stop being timid. It's time to stop playing it safe.

01:30:50.431 --> 01:30:56.951
It's time for us to fight for what we believe in, whatever it takes.

01:30:57.771 --> 01:31:03.691
I'll leave you with the story. My dad got upset with me one morning because

01:31:03.691 --> 01:31:06.391
I was still at home and I hadn't gone to school.

01:31:07.071 --> 01:31:10.891
And I told him I didn't want to go to school today. I'd never missed a day in

01:31:10.891 --> 01:31:13.971
school till I got to college. Whole other story.

01:31:14.691 --> 01:31:19.531
But from elementary school to, well, no, I missed some days in kindergarten

01:31:19.531 --> 01:31:20.991
because I got real sick with asthma.

01:31:21.171 --> 01:31:26.991
But basically from first grade on through my senior high school,

01:31:27.051 --> 01:31:27.911
I didn't miss a day of school.

01:31:29.751 --> 01:31:35.491
And there's one particular day I was still at the house and I didn't realize he was coming home.

01:31:37.071 --> 01:31:42.551
And he was upset. Why are you not at school? And I told him, I'm scared.

01:31:42.771 --> 01:31:46.891
And he said, why are you scared? I said, because this guy, he threatened to

01:31:46.891 --> 01:31:50.511
beat me up and he's going to do it because he's bigger, he's older.

01:31:50.811 --> 01:31:54.171
And he said, what do you get mad about? And I said, we were playing football

01:31:54.171 --> 01:31:55.571
and I tackled him real hard.

01:31:55.751 --> 01:31:59.231
And he'd been wanting to fight me ever since. And, you know,

01:31:59.311 --> 01:32:01.971
I avoided him one day, but I didn't want to.

01:32:02.511 --> 01:32:05.251
And my dad said, you're going to school.

01:32:06.471 --> 01:32:09.131
He said, if you don't go to school, then I'm going to get you,

01:32:09.351 --> 01:32:11.831
which I didn't want that to happen.

01:32:12.511 --> 01:32:20.831
And he said, if he comes at you and you feel so that you can't handle him hand to hand,

01:32:21.931 --> 01:32:28.571
Understand that that's why God always places bricks and bottles on the road for you to grab.

01:32:29.311 --> 01:32:32.391
And of course, God doesn't place bricks and bottles that's littering,

01:32:32.471 --> 01:32:35.151
but I understood what you're saying.

01:32:35.691 --> 01:32:37.671
He's saying, do what you got to do.

01:32:38.331 --> 01:32:42.311
If he's beating you one way, then you got to figure out another way to beat

01:32:42.311 --> 01:32:45.271
him and get him off of you. And that's where we are.

01:32:45.851 --> 01:32:53.411
If we are serious about saving this nation, then we got to use the tools that are available to us.

01:32:53.831 --> 01:32:57.831
And some of them are not conventional. Some people might say they're not fair.

01:32:58.411 --> 01:33:03.111
We're going to have to utilize those tools to save what we believe in.

01:33:03.871 --> 01:33:04.951
Thank you for listening.

01:33:05.200 --> 01:33:54.485
Music.