A Great Show Featuring Dr. C. Nicole Mason, Maura Gillespie and Will Cooper

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

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If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.

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First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash amomentwitherikfleming.

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Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak

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truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.

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Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you

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listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.

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Third, go to the website, momenterik.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,

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leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

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Lastly, don't keep this a secret like it's your own personal guilty pleasure.

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Tell someone else about the podcast. Encourage others to listen to the podcast

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and share the podcast on your social media platforms, because it is time to

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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And welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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And so today is a special kind of day.

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Well, episode, I should say, because I have a number of guests on.

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So it's a jam-packed show. But a couple of the guests have been on before.

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One is a very frequent guest on the show, and he has written a new book.

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So we're going to talk about that. And then the other repeat guest is a young

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lady who is very, very dynamic.

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And I believe one of the most, well, one of the, I want to emphasize,

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is one of the most important people in the discussion, especially when it comes

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to issues dealing with women in America.

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She's devoted a lot of her time and her career in researching issues that impact

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women and trying to come up with action plans to make a difference in their lives.

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And so I'm glad to have both of those repeat guests. And again,

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I stress following the rule.

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So once you've been on, you have an open invitation to come back.

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I don't even, you don't even have to wait for me to ask you. You can just say, hey.

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And so you hear me say that a lot, but I really mean that. And these two guests

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are proof that that is the case.

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And then I have one particular, the other guest is somebody that I've been pursuing

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to be on the podcast for a while. And we finally were able to make that happen.

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And so I was so glad to get this young lady on because she is she is very,

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very insightful about the political process.

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And, you know, with all of my guests, the time that I've allotted to have these

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conversations is not enough.

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You know, I'm already pushing the limits and having these multiple guests and how long the podcast go.

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But I think you all are getting something out of it.

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That's why you keep listening and the word is spreading.

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I'm finding out even more so. So that's good.

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But yeah, but this young lady, she's very, very impressive.

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And hopefully you can pick that up in our discussion. Still looking for folks.

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To subscribe, as always. So you can go to patreon.com slash amomenterikfleming, do that.

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Or you can go to momenterik.com and go to the website and not only subscribe,

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but learn a little bit more about the podcast, especially if this is your first time listening to it.

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Yeah, so this is going to be a great show.

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Matter of fact, I think that's why I'm just going to title it.

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You know, instead of trying to, because all of them are coming at different

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angles in the discussion, I'm just going to call this a great show.

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Again, I'm not an expert at titles, and you've done as many episodes as I've

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had. You know that it gets challenging to try to do something that's not repetitive.

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So this will be the last time I'll be able to use this bailout title,

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but that's what we're going to call this episode a great show.

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And I hope that you agree that it lives up to it with the guests that we have on.

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And another reason why the show is great is because of Grace G.

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She has been, what's the term I want to use, invaluable as far as her dependency

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and her professionalism.

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And I hope that y'all are getting something every time that she's doing these news spots.

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You know, it has really been a good addition to the podcast.

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And I pray that we can continue to keep this thing going.

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So without any further ado, it's time for a moment of news. With Grace G.

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Thanks, Erik. Millions of people of all ages took part in peaceful No Kings

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rallies across the United States on October 18th to protest President Trump's authoritarian agenda.

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NBA Hall of Famer Chauncey Billups and Miami Heat guard Terry Rozier were among

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more than 30 people charged in two related federal gambling investigations.

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North Carolina's legislature passed a new congressional map designed to gain

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an additional Republican seat in the U.S.

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House, furthering a national mid-decade redistricting push by Republicans.

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President Trump commuted the prison sentence of former U.S.

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Representative George Santos. President Trump's lawyers are seeking $230 million

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from the Justice Department for legal costs in his federal investigations.

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A U.S. appeals court ruled that

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President Trump can deploy National Guard troops into Portland, Oregon.

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A federal judge in Chicago mandated that federal law enforcement officers involved

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in immigration enforcement must wear and activate body cameras during interactions with the public.

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The state of Arizona sued the U.S. House of Representatives over the delayed

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swearing-in of Representative-elect Adelita Grijalva.

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Former FBI Director James Comey, citing constitutional violations,

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asked a federal judge to dismiss criminal charges against him.

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The Trump administration announced it will freeze an additional $11 billion

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worth of infrastructure projects in Democratic-led states.

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A New York jury convicted one former correctional officer of murder in the fatal

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beating of inmate Robert Brooks, but acquitted two others.

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A Georgia man with an assault rifle and ammunition was arrested at Atlanta's

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main airport after his family tipped off police that he was planning to shoot up the terminal.

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And OpenAI has blocked users from generating videos of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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With its new Sora app after disrespectful depictions of the civil rights leaders surfaced online.

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I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it's time for

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my guest, Dr. C. Nicole Mason.

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As one of the nation's foremost intersectional researchers and scholars, Dr.

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C. Nicole Mason brings a fresh perspective and a wealth of experience to the

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creation of Future Forward Women, a bold new initiative to build women's power

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and influence in the United States. For the past two decades, Dr.

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Mason has spearheaded research on issues relating to economic security, pay equity, poverty,

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women's issues and entitlement reforms, policy formation and political participation

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among women and communities of color and racial equity. Dr.

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Mason was the Executive Director of the Women of Color Policy Network at New

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York University's Robert F.

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Wagner Graduate School of Public Service The nation's only research and policy

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center focused on women of color at a nationally ranked school of public administration

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She is also an inaugural ASCEND fellow at the Aspen Institute in Washington, D.C.

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At the start of the pandemic, she coined the term she-cession to describe the

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disproportionate impact of employment and income losses on women.

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Dr. Mason is the author of Born Bright, a young girl's journey from nothing

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to something in America, and has written hundreds of articles on women,

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poverty, and economic security.

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Her writing and commentary have been featured in the New York Times, MSNBC, CNN, NBC, CBS,

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The Washington Post, Marie Claire, The Progressive, Essence, Bustle, Big Think.

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The Miami Herald, Democracy Now!, and numerous NPR affiliates, among others.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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again on this podcast, Dr.

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C. Nicole Mason.

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All right. Dr. C. Nicole Mason. How are you doing, sister? It's good to see you again.

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It's good to see you too. It's been a while. It's been a minute.

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Yeah, it's been a minute, but you know, we've been doing our thing,

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especially you and the organization's going well, I take it?

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Yeah, it's going well. We're really doing good work. And I think it's really

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timely because it's in this moment when we think about, you know,

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all that's happening and new strategies and new tactics, I think it's a breath of fresh air.

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So I'm thinking about like, well,

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how do we win? How do we come up with a strategy? Where's the vision?

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And bringing people together. So really excited about how it's going.

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Okay. All right. So first icebreaker you're familiar with is that we throw a quote at you.

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So this is your quote Women's health, economic well-being, safety and political

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power hinges on the state they

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reside in This shouldn't be the case What does that quote mean to you?

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That's a good quote. You know, that person sounds brilliant. No, I'm kidding.

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When I think about that quote, so, you know, we did a power and influence index

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where we looked at where women stood across the 50 states and where they had

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the most power, least power, their health, economic well-being.

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And, you know, it wasn't, the findings weren't that shocking.

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We know where women are thriving and where they're not. But what was shocking

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to me is that when we mapped it, was that you could be living in the state of Maryland,

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cross over to Virginia, go down to Mississippi, and you'd have another bundle

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of rights, a different set of rights.

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You could be worse off economically than if you lived in Maryland or D.C.,

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especially for women of color, Black women.

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And to be honest, Erik, and, you know.

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I sometimes I like I hate when I make this comparison,

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but we haven't seen something like this in about 400 years where your rights

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were are determined by the state that you live in, you know,

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and that's problematic.

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Yeah, well, I don't know why you would hedge on that.

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I mean, it's basically true, you know, and we've always had that dynamic because

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of the way that the United States are constructed.

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But, you know, I guess more in recent time, when you look at what was happening

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in the Jim Crow states and what was happening everywhere else.

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I mean, that's why I've been telling people, if you want to deal with authoritarianism,

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you might need to talk to black folks because a lot of folks lived through that

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just like 50, 60 years ago.

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Right. And there's so, like you said, it wasn't that long ago.

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You know, they're still alive. You know, there are stories to be told. And there's also...

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Ways to respond. Like we have, you know, people are always talking about,

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oh, what are the signs of authoritarianism? Like one, two, three, four, five, six.

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And I'm like, but yeah, you can spend our time doing that, but we could also

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spend our time thinking about how to fight back against authoritarianism.

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And we do know how to, but you got to talk to the right people,

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like you said. That's exactly right.

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All right. So I added a new icebreaker since the last time we talked and it's called 20 questions.

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So I'm here for it. All right. So I need you to give me a number between one

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and 20. I'm going to do eight. Okay.

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What is one thing you hope the current administration will do or not do during this term?

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Well, they're doing everything I don't want them to do.

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Like there's not literally not one thing that they're doing that I don't want them to do.

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So I, you know, so if I wanted them to do something, it would be to stop what they are doing.

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So stop it. Stop being ridiculous.

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Stop being racist. Stop being xenophobic. Stop being classes.

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Stop, stop all your behaviors.

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So I would want them to stop. Yeah. So you're saying you want them to stop.

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Is that what you're saying?

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Yeah. But if there's something I wanted them to do, it would also be to stop like that.

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Stop and stop. So, look, since since we brought that up, about seven million

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people got out on a Saturday and said, yeah, we want them to stop, too.

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So what were your thoughts about the No Kings protest that happened just recently?

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And then earlier this year, there were about five million people that came out.

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What are your thoughts about that? Because I've heard some interesting perspectives.

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I was there both times. I was there both times. You know...

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I think we need sustained action, you know, and, you know, 7 million people,

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8 million people showing up one time, one day is powerful.

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We need to do that every day. You know, this needs to be our job.

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Like, you know, you don't fight authoritarianism on a Saturday because that's

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when people are not at work, you know, and they have the free time and it's

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a couple hours out of the day.

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And what we know from the civil rights movement and fighting back against these

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kinds of regimes, I'm going to call it, is that it takes sustained efforts,

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sustained resistance. Right.

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I'm going to even say, and this is around Black Lives Matter.

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I told my kids, went to the rallies in D.C., and I said, we're going to show

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up here every weekend until something changes.

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And about after the third weekend, it was just people just selling T-shirts.

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You know, I said, well, where is the reason?

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I thought we were going to be out here, you know, every weekend or doing this

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every day, you know. And so I think that in this moment, that's what we sustained resistance.

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I don't know.

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I think I've heard some of the critiques about the No Kings March,

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but, you know, what else are we doing, people?

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You know, what else? What are we going to do? You know?

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Yeah, I think the biggest thing I heard was what you addressed that it's like

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it's one thing because I heard somebody say, well, that's not a protest. that's a rally.

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It's like a protest is something sustainable, something that you're constantly doing.

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And so I agree with you on that. And I've been there, done that when you're

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talking about, okay, yeah, so we're going to meet every Friday.

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We're going to have this prayer in front of the government's mansion and all this stuff.

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And it started off with like 150 people.

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And about two months in, it was down to the voted seven. You know what I'm saying?

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And so that's part of the strategy is that they're hoping for attrition and

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lack of interest as opposed to something sustainable.

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So we're in agreement with that. And I think most people feel that way.

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And hopefully the protests will lead to some kind of sustainable action.

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Have you had a chance to read Vice President Harris's book, 107 Days?

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I have not, but I do have it. And I have, I do have it.

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I have like a stack of books here. So I do have it. I haven't read it.

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I will read it because I want to review it. But I have enjoyed,

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can I just say, watching the clips from the tour.

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They have been amazing because she feels unleashed.

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She feels empowered and she

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has something to say like she's telling her story but i think

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in her story are some instructive lessons

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about what not to do and how

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to treat people and it's like in the book i mean from the very jump when the

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word unleashed is the perfect word for it because from the opening introduction

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she used like oh yeah yeah i'm gonna read this this It sounds like she didn't put the earrings down.

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She put the Vaseline on the face. She ready to go. You know what I'm saying? And she does it.

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And she's very, very open and retrospective about the campaign.

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And, you know, it's very hard for us that have run for office when we get when

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we suffer defeat, especially for a position that we really want it.

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To kind of peel back and say, okay, what did I do wrong?

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Where did, where did I not make the right connection, whatever, you know?

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So it's, it's very, very revealing. I was, I was, I got the audio version cause

00:19:39.018 --> 00:19:40.438
I wanted to hear her talk.

00:19:40.598 --> 00:19:43.758
Cause in this day and age, I'm tired of hearing the current president.

00:19:43.758 --> 00:19:45.478
So I wanted to hear the president I voted for.

00:19:46.438 --> 00:19:49.878
So I got that. I think, I think I'm going to do that too. I have a couple of

00:19:49.878 --> 00:19:53.678
audible credits out of, you know, I have the hard copy, but I think I'm going

00:19:53.678 --> 00:19:58.858
to go ahead and do what you did so I can take a listen and hear it in her own voice, you know.

00:20:00.038 --> 00:20:03.078
So I'm going to do that too. Okay. All right.

00:20:03.218 --> 00:20:09.198
So there's been a steady decline of women in the workplace since the beginning of the year.

00:20:09.718 --> 00:20:14.258
Experts cite three factors demanding employees to return to the workplace,

00:20:14.478 --> 00:20:18.178
the rising cost of childcare, and mass deportation.

00:20:18.178 --> 00:20:26.898
One, and so since you coined the phrase secession, is this an example of the

00:20:26.898 --> 00:20:31.258
secession continuing or has it accelerated?

00:20:32.404 --> 00:20:37.024
This is something completely different. You know, the she session was explaining

00:20:37.024 --> 00:20:39.124
an economic downturn, like a recession,

00:20:39.544 --> 00:20:44.144
you know, and, you know, understanding that the job losses that were happening

00:20:44.144 --> 00:20:48.004
were disproportionately impacting women. So that is that.

00:20:48.464 --> 00:20:53.104
What we're seeing now is something completely man-made.

00:20:54.764 --> 00:21:00.004
It's man-made. By that, I mean, it's the administration's doing.

00:21:00.644 --> 00:21:06.124
And some of it has been really exacting The 300,000 women, black women Pushed

00:21:06.124 --> 00:21:10.184
out of the workforce That's not, you know, oh,

00:21:10.684 --> 00:21:17.284
unintentional When you understand that majority of black women A lot of black

00:21:17.284 --> 00:21:19.644
women A good size of black women,

00:21:20.204 --> 00:21:24.264
Are employed in the federal government They work in the federal government And

00:21:24.264 --> 00:21:27.584
then when you say, I'm just going to go by And cut all federal,

00:21:27.824 --> 00:21:32.144
you know, fire federal employees and, you know, reduction in force,

00:21:32.144 --> 00:21:37.204
you have to understand that's going to have a disproportionate impact on Black women,

00:21:38.664 --> 00:21:41.764
and destabilize communities, destabilize families.

00:21:42.284 --> 00:21:45.404
And so it's not unintentional.

00:21:46.164 --> 00:21:55.124
And then, you know, the fear, the backlash around people, I'm not even going

00:21:55.124 --> 00:21:57.024
to say DEI because I don't think we should call it that.

00:21:57.084 --> 00:22:00.964
I said we should say what it is. It's the backlash against,

00:22:02.148 --> 00:22:06.488
Black and brown progress. That's what it is.

00:22:07.208 --> 00:22:13.308
It's anti-DI. It's anti-progress. It's anti-Blackness.

00:22:13.548 --> 00:22:16.888
It is racism.

00:22:18.248 --> 00:22:27.468
And there are no protections. When we talk about the venture fund that was committed

00:22:27.468 --> 00:22:31.968
to funding Black women businesses, taking that to court,

00:22:32.608 --> 00:22:39.208
making it so that they can't give grants and support to Black women businesses,

00:22:39.588 --> 00:22:44.328
this is not anti, this is not leveling the field. This is racism.

00:22:44.528 --> 00:22:47.068
This is trying to thwart progress.

00:22:47.368 --> 00:22:52.108
And so I think we should call it that as opposed to getting into some debate

00:22:52.108 --> 00:22:59.048
around DEI, you know, whether we need it or not. That's because that's not what this is about.

00:22:59.448 --> 00:23:01.548
So the job losses, I think, are

00:23:01.548 --> 00:23:06.468
very intentional. I don't want to be conspiratorial here around, you know.

00:23:07.531 --> 00:23:10.791
Trump's targeting of Black women, but we've seen it.

00:23:11.071 --> 00:23:14.831
And this is just another iteration of that. And it weakens the Democratic base,

00:23:15.411 --> 00:23:18.811
which, you know, so that's what I think.

00:23:18.891 --> 00:23:21.931
I think we need to be connecting the dots and more intentionally.

00:23:22.871 --> 00:23:27.931
Yeah, it's definitely has not only economic, but political ramifications.

00:23:28.291 --> 00:23:31.131
And that was one of the things I was trying to tell people is like,

00:23:31.131 --> 00:23:35.611
Look, if if Project 2025 is enacted,

00:23:36.511 --> 00:23:42.191
then black folks are going to suffer the most because the biggest employer of

00:23:42.191 --> 00:23:44.631
black people in the United States is the federal government.

00:23:44.851 --> 00:23:47.851
Right. And then next is state and local government.

00:23:48.071 --> 00:23:53.571
So when you're talking about cutting government jobs, you're impacting our community.

00:23:53.571 --> 00:23:59.911
And some folks, like you said, didn't connect the dots, but they're coloring

00:23:59.911 --> 00:24:01.891
in the lines now. They've been figuring it out.

00:24:02.031 --> 00:24:08.431
And so hopefully we can get in there and do something over the next three and

00:24:08.431 --> 00:24:09.631
a half years. But we'll see.

00:24:10.291 --> 00:24:12.551
Yeah, I'm not, you know, we'll see.

00:24:14.591 --> 00:24:19.051
You stated earlier this year that women hold significant political power,

00:24:19.051 --> 00:24:24.451
Yet policy choices and deepening disparities prevent them from fully realizing it.

00:24:24.771 --> 00:24:26.811
So my question out of that is,

00:24:26.911 --> 00:24:31.811
do you expect more women to emerge as candidates in the 2026 elections?

00:24:32.918 --> 00:24:37.258
Yeah, I think so. And I worked with, we're very closely with a couple organizations

00:24:37.258 --> 00:24:40.298
focused on getting women elected to office.

00:24:40.618 --> 00:24:43.078
I work closely with Vote Run Lead.

00:24:43.818 --> 00:24:48.458
And yeah, I think more women are raising their hand to run more now than ever.

00:24:48.758 --> 00:24:51.418
I mean, I think everybody, if you want to run for office, you know,

00:24:52.418 --> 00:24:56.158
Eric, you did it. I mean, I couldn't do it. It's just too much.

00:24:56.698 --> 00:24:59.658
But if you feel like you want to do it, I think you should do it.

00:24:59.958 --> 00:25:05.358
I do think that there's some other structural issues that we need to deal with

00:25:05.358 --> 00:25:08.738
to make running and winning possible.

00:25:09.198 --> 00:25:14.038
So the gerrymandering issue, you know, some other structural reforms,

00:25:14.158 --> 00:25:19.858
campaign finance reform, some new things like rank choice voting makes it easier

00:25:19.858 --> 00:25:21.358
in terms of representation.

00:25:22.158 --> 00:25:27.298
You know, there are a few things that, yeah, run, but, you know,

00:25:27.378 --> 00:25:29.218
it's still very hard to run and win.

00:25:29.638 --> 00:25:33.358
And then when you get there, Or you don't have any power because,

00:25:33.658 --> 00:25:36.038
you know, you just got there.

00:25:36.758 --> 00:25:41.878
And so how do we fix that so that if we elect them, we actually do get the right

00:25:41.878 --> 00:25:44.518
people in office, they can actually do something or change.

00:25:44.738 --> 00:25:49.658
I mean, you know, at the national level, we see it. It's just a high level of

00:25:49.658 --> 00:25:50.958
dysfunction all around.

00:25:52.129 --> 00:25:54.769
On both sides. I'm not going to say it's just the Republicans.

00:25:54.949 --> 00:25:59.589
I think Democrats are also lost their way too.

00:26:00.809 --> 00:26:05.169
But when it all comes down to it, Democrats don't have any power.

00:26:05.689 --> 00:26:11.269
You know, I mean, I don't know if you just, you know, I was reading the news.

00:26:11.449 --> 00:26:14.709
I only read the headlines now. And, you know, if I want to go deep, I will.

00:26:14.989 --> 00:26:20.229
But Trump is about to ask the Department of Justice, and he's going to get it

00:26:20.229 --> 00:26:26.649
for $230 million to cover his legal fees for his impeachment trials or,

00:26:26.989 --> 00:26:29.049
you know, and he's going to get it.

00:26:29.229 --> 00:26:33.049
I said, this man is robbing us blind, but he wrote, he did it the first time

00:26:33.049 --> 00:26:36.289
and he's back with more power and more authority.

00:26:36.409 --> 00:26:39.249
And he is lining his pockets and so are his friends.

00:26:39.789 --> 00:26:43.709
And who do we go see about that? That's the cold part about it.

00:26:43.829 --> 00:26:46.749
As my father would say, who do we go see about that?

00:26:47.229 --> 00:26:51.869
And we don't even, there are no levers right now, as far as I can see.

00:26:52.786 --> 00:26:58.906
You know, to address this. And our leaders cannot, you know, or at least they're not.

00:27:00.406 --> 00:27:06.366
So run for office, but, you know, it feels hard.

00:27:06.566 --> 00:27:12.366
One of the things, Doc, that I'd say, I think I've only told one person that

00:27:12.366 --> 00:27:14.546
told me they wanted to run for office not to run.

00:27:14.786 --> 00:27:20.286
And that was because they had run several times before and they had some family

00:27:20.286 --> 00:27:23.646
issues. And I said, you need to focus on that because you're not going to be

00:27:23.646 --> 00:27:26.126
able to do that and run effectively if you do that.

00:27:26.466 --> 00:27:32.306
Other than that, I tell people to run. Now, the trick is getting people to understand

00:27:32.306 --> 00:27:37.986
that once you get elected, that's when the hard part, running for all things.

00:27:39.086 --> 00:27:43.946
And then the other thing I remind people is that in the land of the blind,

00:27:44.066 --> 00:27:49.086
the one-eyed man is, or the one-eyed woman in this case is king or queen, right? Right.

00:27:49.506 --> 00:27:55.586
So you need to not only learn how to run for the position, but you need to learn

00:27:55.586 --> 00:27:58.746
the position before you take that oath.

00:27:58.886 --> 00:28:02.886
You need to understand what powers you have, understand the rules,

00:28:03.246 --> 00:28:05.506
especially if you get into a legislative body.

00:28:05.926 --> 00:28:12.066
Right. Because my personal experience, because I had that knowledge once I was

00:28:12.066 --> 00:28:15.546
voting on stuff and speaking against bills, my machine wasn't even working.

00:28:15.906 --> 00:28:19.886
Right. I had to physically tell them yes or no. On the bill.

00:28:20.166 --> 00:28:27.206
So the more prepared you are going in, I think kind of negates some of the,

00:28:27.426 --> 00:28:33.046
for lack of a better word, impotence that you might feel getting in that position. Right.

00:28:33.506 --> 00:28:40.226
I think that that's the key. So training, you know, education is the is the ultimate thing.

00:28:40.346 --> 00:28:44.906
But we can do a whole show about that. I'm gonna keep going because I know you got other things to do.

00:28:45.646 --> 00:28:49.846
What are your thoughts concerning the Trump administration's threat to go after

00:28:49.846 --> 00:28:52.286
nonprofits that don't jive with his agenda?

00:28:53.578 --> 00:28:58.498
Well, you know, I'm also of the mind, like, so some, you know,

00:28:58.918 --> 00:29:03.098
you know, I work in this sector, I get funding from foundations,

00:29:03.098 --> 00:29:04.998
and there's a lot of fear.

00:29:05.558 --> 00:29:12.398
And so there's some organizations and some foundations that are preemptively

00:29:12.398 --> 00:29:16.618
complying or changing, you know, the language on their websites.

00:29:16.618 --> 00:29:24.278
They are not funding organizations that they funded because they don't want to raise scrutiny.

00:29:25.098 --> 00:29:29.618
And I think that that's not the way we should be thinking about this.

00:29:29.778 --> 00:29:33.238
I think we need to say, okay, do it.

00:29:33.778 --> 00:29:36.878
Because you're not doing anything wrong.

00:29:37.378 --> 00:29:43.118
So let us engage. Let us come after me.

00:29:43.438 --> 00:29:50.618
And let's go. Let's engage because I think by backing down,

00:29:50.898 --> 00:29:56.738
by preemptively complying, we send the message that there is something wrong

00:29:56.738 --> 00:29:58.478
about the work that we're doing.

00:29:58.678 --> 00:30:02.598
There is something wrong about what foundations fund.

00:30:02.798 --> 00:30:10.858
There is something not right about wanting justice, equity, and fighting back

00:30:10.858 --> 00:30:13.198
against a repressive administration.

00:30:14.258 --> 00:30:20.598
And by not complying, we send the message that I think the right message that,

00:30:21.358 --> 00:30:22.138
well, what are you going to do?

00:30:22.458 --> 00:30:25.818
Like, what's the end game?

00:30:26.038 --> 00:30:29.738
I think people haven't thought, like, what is the end game? So the end game

00:30:29.738 --> 00:30:31.078
is you're going to lose your status.

00:30:31.518 --> 00:30:36.098
Well, then maybe we also need to be thinking about new ways of running organizations

00:30:36.098 --> 00:30:40.918
and foundations that are not dependent on this one code in our tax code.

00:30:42.155 --> 00:30:47.235
You know, so it's scary. It's a real scary time, I think, for organizations.

00:30:47.655 --> 00:30:51.035
By scary, I mean fearful. Like they're running, people are running scared or

00:30:51.035 --> 00:30:52.315
preparing and lowering up.

00:30:52.595 --> 00:30:56.295
You know, even when I get grants now, I mean, you just spend so much time in

00:30:56.295 --> 00:30:59.495
legal making sure that every, you know.

00:31:01.015 --> 00:31:06.775
And I just wrote about this yesterday. Funders are freeze frozen.

00:31:07.075 --> 00:31:14.035
They're not giving. So they're essentially, he is essentially indirectly killing whole sectors,

00:31:14.755 --> 00:31:21.735
whole sectors of work because funders have frozen and have stopped giving money

00:31:21.735 --> 00:31:23.895
or they're giving money to other things.

00:31:24.095 --> 00:31:30.795
Like they've taken it from racial equity work or women's issues or health and

00:31:30.795 --> 00:31:33.515
put it into stuff like art and AI and technology.

00:31:33.515 --> 00:31:39.095
Whole foundations have pivoted to AI technology. I'm like, what?

00:31:40.135 --> 00:31:45.235
So, or, you know, you have really big Democratic funders or liberal funders

00:31:45.235 --> 00:31:47.895
who I personally feel are turncoats,

00:31:48.095 --> 00:31:55.395
like the one Mark Benioff, who was a huge funder of liberal causes, progressive causes,

00:31:56.015 --> 00:32:02.435
Salesforce, who has now offered to help ICE figure out how to hire people.

00:32:02.435 --> 00:32:07.695
More effectively So he has Again It's where the political winds are turning

00:32:07.695 --> 00:32:13.935
And for me That also sends a message about To me About my work About Just how

00:32:13.935 --> 00:32:18.195
disposable And vulnerable It could You know It is,

00:32:19.046 --> 00:32:23.486
Well, you might be right on the Salesforce guy, but he might be working.

00:32:23.646 --> 00:32:29.786
He might be trying to be the enemy behind the lines because what the latest

00:32:29.786 --> 00:32:33.126
report I just heard is that the ICE agents can't do pushups.

00:32:34.486 --> 00:32:39.666
They can't pass a physical test. So maybe he's like, yeah, I'll help you find

00:32:39.666 --> 00:32:42.326
these people. Let me get the fattest, slowest.

00:32:44.706 --> 00:32:47.826
He might be gumming up the system. He might be gumming up the system.

00:32:47.826 --> 00:32:49.286
So, you know, we don't know.

00:32:49.446 --> 00:32:52.246
But, you know, I always try to think positive of some people.

00:32:52.406 --> 00:32:59.406
But I do agree with your assessment about giving in before, because, you know, that's it.

00:33:01.006 --> 00:33:04.646
We've been told, those of us that pay attention to those things,

00:33:04.766 --> 00:33:11.406
that the easiest way for a dictator to take power is to acquiesce in advance.

00:33:12.806 --> 00:33:18.586
And it's like, okay, that makes sense. It's like, don't give in to the person.

00:33:19.146 --> 00:33:25.246
Fight them all the way to the end. I mean, legends and historic figures have

00:33:25.246 --> 00:33:27.966
emerged because they fought to the end.

00:33:28.366 --> 00:33:33.646
Those of you who profess to be Christian, I mean, Jesus was flipping tables at the temple.

00:33:33.866 --> 00:33:38.326
I mean, anyway, again, don't let me get carried away on your soapbox.

00:33:38.486 --> 00:33:40.066
Let's talk about your work.

00:33:41.406 --> 00:33:46.146
And what kind of hope that you're finding in doing this kind of work?

00:33:46.246 --> 00:33:52.446
Because even though the times are challenging, what is it that you see that

00:33:52.446 --> 00:33:59.386
keeps you going and give you the hope that things are going to change?

00:33:59.826 --> 00:34:02.966
Well, because they always change, you know, they have to change.

00:34:04.633 --> 00:34:08.133
Sometimes when I look at the news or I read a headline or I see what's going

00:34:08.133 --> 00:34:10.813
on, I'm like, oh, my God, this is bad.

00:34:12.233 --> 00:34:17.893
But what gives me hope, what gives me inspiration is that we,

00:34:18.493 --> 00:34:24.813
the collective we, have come out on the other side of other things.

00:34:25.053 --> 00:34:27.513
You know, we have been through a civil war, let us not forget.

00:34:27.813 --> 00:34:32.693
We have been through Jim Crow. We have been, you know, I mean,

00:34:32.873 --> 00:34:38.793
these times are bad, but I do think we do understand what the arc is here.

00:34:39.433 --> 00:34:42.173
I think what's different is that.

00:34:43.352 --> 00:34:52.092
If I were being really honest here, there are some people who benefit from the

00:34:52.092 --> 00:34:54.872
stratification and benefit from proximity.

00:34:55.552 --> 00:34:59.612
You know, everything is very self-interest, like what's in it for me?

00:34:59.772 --> 00:35:02.412
And you saw that in the 2024 election.

00:35:03.112 --> 00:35:08.892
And so there's the idea of a collective, like I'm going to, my fate is tied

00:35:08.892 --> 00:35:11.392
to your fate. What happens to you happens to me.

00:35:12.112 --> 00:35:18.472
We don't in our in the public imagination or the way we think about things that's

00:35:18.472 --> 00:35:23.192
not that's not our leading frame right now It's what are you going to do for me?

00:35:23.372 --> 00:35:27.232
What do I get out of this? Well, if it's not impacting my family or what's going

00:35:27.232 --> 00:35:32.992
on, I don't I don't really care about it and it's very self-interested politics

00:35:32.992 --> 00:35:37.232
or a way of Thinking about what's happening.

00:35:37.492 --> 00:35:42.932
So if we were in danger of anything, I would say that, you know,

00:35:43.032 --> 00:35:44.672
are not getting to the other side.

00:35:44.912 --> 00:35:50.432
It's because we're fragmented or, you know, people are thinking about themselves.

00:35:51.352 --> 00:35:59.232
So what gives me hope is trying to figure out how to bring people together and

00:35:59.232 --> 00:36:00.732
coalition and connection.

00:36:00.812 --> 00:36:03.592
And I do believe our fates are tied.

00:36:03.932 --> 00:36:08.152
You know, I've always believed that. I mean, I, when in my early 20s or,

00:36:08.252 --> 00:36:11.252
you know, I would show up for anybody's march, you know, immigration march,

00:36:11.432 --> 00:36:15.072
I'm there, IMF, I'm there, you know, you know, when we on there, you know.

00:36:16.092 --> 00:36:21.912
So because I really believe that we, you know, we might, it might be this issue,

00:36:22.052 --> 00:36:23.412
but the underlying values,

00:36:24.112 --> 00:36:28.932
the underlying belief system, we all share, you know, and I'm not,

00:36:29.032 --> 00:36:32.572
I'm having a hard time sort of trying to pull that thread together.

00:36:32.832 --> 00:36:37.912
But I'm optimistic that I wake up every day thinking about like.

00:36:38.879 --> 00:36:42.159
What's your part today? Like, what are you going to say? What,

00:36:42.339 --> 00:36:47.579
you know, so it's my writing, it's my organizing, it's my research.

00:36:47.739 --> 00:36:52.019
I think all that, you know, gives the people a different way to think about

00:36:52.019 --> 00:36:55.599
a topic or a subject or, you know, increases understanding.

00:36:55.899 --> 00:37:00.699
So, you know, so I'm over here doing my part. So I think, and showing up even

00:37:00.699 --> 00:37:03.139
for the rest, you know, no Kings, I don't care if it's, you know,

00:37:03.219 --> 00:37:05.779
you tell me another march is next week, I'll be there, you know,

00:37:06.219 --> 00:37:08.959
because that's what we have to do. Yeah, I think.

00:37:09.299 --> 00:37:14.359
And that's that's something I'm probably going to address in an editorial or something like that.

00:37:14.459 --> 00:37:19.959
But when I was sitting there listening to you, I was thinking about we kind

00:37:19.959 --> 00:37:23.539
of line up more on coincidence than we do on consciousness.

00:37:24.019 --> 00:37:30.839
Right. It just so happens that if my health care is impacted and your health

00:37:30.839 --> 00:37:36.419
care is impacted, then we both get together and protest about our health care being impacted.

00:37:36.859 --> 00:37:43.019
It's not that it's like from Jump Street, the whole concept coming down should

00:37:43.019 --> 00:37:47.019
have been stopped before it got to the point where it impacted me or you. Right.

00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:55.239
That we should have had that moral clarity to fight for something first before it got to me.

00:37:55.459 --> 00:37:57.939
And now I got to make emergency decisions.

00:37:58.179 --> 00:38:00.359
Right. So anyway.

00:38:00.859 --> 00:38:04.059
Well, people think it's not going to. And that's again, I don't I don't want

00:38:04.059 --> 00:38:07.939
to, you know, people think it's like I mean, you've heard people.

00:38:08.059 --> 00:38:11.359
Well, you know, some people you heard people say like, well,

00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:16.639
I didn't think, you know, it was going to happen to me. or I was going to lose

00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:20.939
my job or, you know, I thought he was going to take those immigrants away,

00:38:21.299 --> 00:38:22.959
not my, you know, and it's like.

00:38:23.971 --> 00:38:29.911
Okay, you know, you know, so, you know, it's just, that's what's problematic

00:38:29.911 --> 00:38:33.891
that people, even in 2024, when they were going in the voting booth,

00:38:34.271 --> 00:38:37.251
couldn't see the connections. They were like, that has nothing to do with me.

00:38:37.971 --> 00:38:43.011
And here we are, like, it's, everybody's hurting. The economy's hurting.

00:38:43.571 --> 00:38:51.811
You know, I'm a, I get my, my health insurance through an exchange because it's, It's easier that way.

00:38:53.171 --> 00:38:56.491
That's about to go away for everybody. If you're self-employed,

00:38:57.251 --> 00:39:06.211
if you're elderly, farmers, truckers, I mean, everybody without employer-related insurance.

00:39:06.391 --> 00:39:09.191
Five million people will be impacted right off the cuff.

00:39:09.911 --> 00:39:13.651
And it has a trickling effect. Like, everybody's premiums are going to go up,

00:39:13.691 --> 00:39:15.651
even if you have employer-covered insurance.

00:39:17.691 --> 00:39:22.611
So I really wish that people would have connected the dots sooner.

00:39:23.071 --> 00:39:27.191
I'm hoping that in the coming months, in the coming years, that they will.

00:39:28.891 --> 00:39:34.291
So one of the things that you're doing, because this is at the point where I

00:39:34.291 --> 00:39:36.531
asked my guests to promote stuff.

00:39:36.891 --> 00:39:40.351
One of the things you're doing to try to help people connect the dots is this

00:39:40.351 --> 00:39:42.911
new sub stack that you got going on, the Perfect 10.

00:39:43.091 --> 00:39:50.131
So talk about that. And then, you know, how people can subscribe to it and all that.

00:39:50.231 --> 00:39:53.751
And then if people want to reach out to you and your organization,

00:39:54.091 --> 00:39:58.391
Future Forward Women, just just go ahead and make your appeal appeal.

00:39:59.674 --> 00:40:04.854
So Future for Women is about building women's power and influence across all

00:40:04.854 --> 00:40:09.534
50 states. We work on a range of issues, economic justice, health equity,

00:40:10.294 --> 00:40:11.714
reproductive rights and justice.

00:40:12.734 --> 00:40:15.734
And we need your voice. We need you engaged.

00:40:16.054 --> 00:40:20.374
We need you reading our reports. We need you sharing our reports and our actions.

00:40:20.714 --> 00:40:22.074
So that's the first thing.

00:40:22.514 --> 00:40:28.254
And again, this is a, it seems to be a very dark time. But one of the things

00:40:28.254 --> 00:40:33.034
I'm very clear about is that to get where we want to go, we need to be inspired,

00:40:33.214 --> 00:40:37.234
we need to be leading with vision, and it needs to be rooted in the lives of everyday people.

00:40:37.534 --> 00:40:41.094
And so that's our philosophy and our work.

00:40:41.634 --> 00:40:47.174
The Perfect Ten, the newsletter, it's commentary. It's my writing.

00:40:47.354 --> 00:40:51.274
It's my take on some of these issues and what's happening and helping to connect

00:40:51.274 --> 00:40:53.834
the dots and asking the questions.

00:40:55.154 --> 00:40:58.574
So one of the things that's true, and you know this, Erik, because,

00:40:58.734 --> 00:41:05.094
you know, you have your podcast, is that I've been really shocked by the media.

00:41:06.074 --> 00:41:10.174
People say it's mainstream media, but we're going to call them the media corporations

00:41:10.174 --> 00:41:14.594
because that's what you have to know because you know that they're driven by the bottom line.

00:41:14.594 --> 00:41:20.214
And so if you look across these big corporations, these media corporations,

00:41:21.094 --> 00:41:25.634
you know, all the voices, all the black and brown voices, black women,

00:41:25.774 --> 00:41:27.414
black male voices have disappeared.

00:41:27.694 --> 00:41:32.554
So you're not getting the take on what's happening. You're not getting the analysis

00:41:32.554 --> 00:41:36.254
that you need to be able to inform an opinion.

00:41:37.074 --> 00:41:43.434
And NBC, for example, just cut all of their diversity, I'm putting diversity

00:41:43.434 --> 00:41:46.894
in quotes, you can't see that, writers in sections.

00:41:47.274 --> 00:41:54.494
And so what you're left with are people like you, Erik, me, Joyann Reed,

00:41:55.114 --> 00:41:59.014
Karen, who got fired from the Washington Post for calling Charlie Kirk.

00:41:59.754 --> 00:42:03.914
She didn't say anything She just reposted his tweet All on Substack,

00:42:04.968 --> 00:42:09.648
giving that analysis that you would see on any news station or you used to be

00:42:09.648 --> 00:42:11.008
able to see when you turn on the TV.

00:42:12.148 --> 00:42:16.688
So it's the perfect 10, 10 issues impacting women's lives.

00:42:17.788 --> 00:42:23.308
And, you know, follow me, read me, share it. It's fun. I think I'm funny and

00:42:23.308 --> 00:42:25.308
insightful and, you know, it's great.

00:42:25.668 --> 00:42:29.648
But most importantly, I don't care what you do. I just want you to do something.

00:42:30.108 --> 00:42:34.328
I want you to get out there, you know, go to the No Kings March or don't.

00:42:34.328 --> 00:42:37.368
Talk to your neighbor, you know, volunteer.

00:42:37.928 --> 00:42:40.968
We need everybody doing everything in their own way.

00:42:41.788 --> 00:42:47.528
Yeah. Well, Dr. C. Nicole Mason, it's always an honor to talk to you.

00:42:47.748 --> 00:42:56.408
And I really am pleased that you follow the rule that once you've been invited,

00:42:56.608 --> 00:42:57.748
you're welcome to come back.

00:42:58.308 --> 00:43:01.568
And you know I just obviously as

00:43:01.568 --> 00:43:04.448
long as I've got this podcast I don't intend this

00:43:04.448 --> 00:43:07.468
to be the last time we talk even now I just

00:43:07.468 --> 00:43:10.968
I just feel good that there are sisters out

00:43:10.968 --> 00:43:15.468
there like you that are fighting and you're fighting intelligently and you're

00:43:15.468 --> 00:43:21.808
fighting ferociously at the same time and uh you know we're we're here to keep

00:43:21.808 --> 00:43:27.368
each other encouraged and I hope that you know what you've said today gives

00:43:27.368 --> 00:43:30.008
people encouragement and gives them some food for thought.

00:43:30.208 --> 00:43:33.788
So again, thank you for coming on the podcast again. I appreciate it.

00:43:34.428 --> 00:43:39.688
Thank you so much, Erik. And yeah, I can't wait to come back. Have me back.

00:43:40.968 --> 00:43:42.768
All right, guys, we're going to catch y'all on.

00:44:02.288 --> 00:44:09.008
All right, and we are back. And so now it's time for my next guest, Maura Gillespie.

00:44:09.568 --> 00:44:14.008
Maura Gillespie has over 12 years of government service as a Capitol Hill veteran.

00:44:14.308 --> 00:44:18.768
She most recently served as the deputy chief of staff for now former Congressman

00:44:18.768 --> 00:44:24.428
Adam Kinzinger, where she led his office as the head of communications for nearly seven years.

00:44:25.228 --> 00:44:30.488
Prior to joining the Kinzinger team, Mara worked for former Speaker of the House John A.

00:44:30.648 --> 00:44:35.308
Boehner in his administrative and press operations over a five-year span.

00:44:35.588 --> 00:44:40.628
As a founding partner of the Country First movement, led by Adam Kinzinger,

00:44:41.128 --> 00:44:45.168
Maura served as the chief spokesperson and chief strategist for the organization,

00:44:45.788 --> 00:44:50.288
engaging with people from across the political spectrum who felt lost and frustrated

00:44:50.288 --> 00:44:55.248
by the hyper-partisan political landscape we find ourselves in today.

00:44:55.548 --> 00:44:58.868
An expert on communication, strategy, and messaging,

00:44:59.488 --> 00:45:04.508
Maura oversaw a significant portfolio for an active and often outspoken member

00:45:04.508 --> 00:45:08.988
of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, the House Energy and Commerce Committee,

00:45:09.108 --> 00:45:14.108
and the Select Committee to investigate the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol.

00:45:14.928 --> 00:45:19.168
Originally from the Garden State, Maura continues to engage with the political

00:45:19.168 --> 00:45:24.188
process through her consulting company, BlueStack Strategies LLC,

00:45:24.708 --> 00:45:29.888
and interviews by sharing insight from her unique congressional experience.

00:45:30.128 --> 00:45:34.308
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:45:34.308 --> 00:45:37.668
on this podcast, Maura Gillespie.

00:45:48.375 --> 00:45:51.955
All right. Maura Gillespie, how are you doing?

00:45:52.675 --> 00:45:57.855
I'm doing well. Thanks for having me, Erik. Well, as stated before,

00:45:57.875 --> 00:46:00.035
I am really, really glad to get you.

00:46:00.595 --> 00:46:06.135
I've been kind of following you. There's a number of people I watch on TV and

00:46:06.135 --> 00:46:07.875
pay attention to when they come on.

00:46:08.215 --> 00:46:13.275
And you have been one of them. I think that you have a very,

00:46:13.415 --> 00:46:19.875
very unique experience in dissecting what is going on in politics and what has

00:46:19.875 --> 00:46:21.715
been going on over the last few years.

00:46:22.055 --> 00:46:28.015
And so when I was finally able to get you on, I was like, yay, I got it.

00:46:28.915 --> 00:46:32.095
So I'm really, really happy to talk to you today.

00:46:32.515 --> 00:46:38.175
Well, thank you. So how I normally do this thing, I do a couple of icebreakers.

00:46:38.795 --> 00:46:44.815
So the first icebreaker I throw on the guest is a quote And your quote is With

00:46:44.815 --> 00:46:50.235
the highs, the lows, and all the in-betweens Everything happens for a reason

00:46:50.235 --> 00:46:52.075
What does that quote mean to you?

00:46:53.175 --> 00:46:57.155
You know, throughout my either life and also through my political career,

00:46:57.395 --> 00:47:01.595
there were times where I really wanted one thing to turn out how I wanted it.

00:47:01.895 --> 00:47:06.675
But I am a person of faith. And so I know that as much as I want something to

00:47:06.675 --> 00:47:11.075
happen or as much as I think it should happen, a lot of times it's just not up to me.

00:47:11.355 --> 00:47:17.015
And it always does happen for the right reasons. And we may not be able to see it in the moment.

00:47:17.255 --> 00:47:21.995
But the big picture, I believe that even in our lowest of lows,

00:47:22.175 --> 00:47:24.835
there's a reason why. we're going through that at that particular time,

00:47:24.835 --> 00:47:28.635
because what we're going to see on the other end is going to make it all clear.

00:47:28.975 --> 00:47:36.195
And then so much more poignant almost in that it was worth it because of what we ended up with.

00:47:36.435 --> 00:47:40.955
So I think when I think about my time with Boehner, I didn't want that to end.

00:47:41.015 --> 00:47:42.155
I didn't want it to end the way it did.

00:47:42.695 --> 00:47:47.835
And I worry about what was next. And a person likes to plan and likes to know what's going to happen.

00:47:48.095 --> 00:47:50.895
And a lot of times you just can't, Especially in politics, which is funny that

00:47:50.895 --> 00:47:53.135
I'm, you know, in politics, you can't always plan for it.

00:47:53.215 --> 00:47:59.275
But I do believe that the highs, the lows, they all teach us that it happens

00:47:59.275 --> 00:48:01.655
for a reason and we're better because of it. Yeah.

00:48:02.695 --> 00:48:06.975
Yeah. You know, I think we're on the same faith journey and,

00:48:07.175 --> 00:48:12.435
you know, the way that it was always colloquialized is it's going to be better

00:48:12.435 --> 00:48:13.895
on the other side of the mountain.

00:48:14.215 --> 00:48:17.695
Right. Yeah. And so I definitely relate to that.

00:48:17.955 --> 00:48:22.335
So the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.

00:48:23.335 --> 00:48:29.415
So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20. 11. Okay.

00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:37.759
That was just an easy one for me. Where do you go to check a fact that you see,

00:48:37.999 --> 00:48:40.919
hear, or read? See, hear, or read.

00:48:42.139 --> 00:48:47.239
I will Google it first, right? If I have a question or type it in.

00:48:48.099 --> 00:48:52.319
And then I usually will read at least three different things to make sure.

00:48:52.619 --> 00:48:56.499
So three different sources, whether that is an article that pops up first,

00:48:56.919 --> 00:49:00.419
scroll down a little further. But I usually try and read at least three different

00:49:00.419 --> 00:49:04.539
things on one topic to get a better picture of what's going on. Yeah.

00:49:05.239 --> 00:49:08.459
How did you decide that you wanted to make a career out of politics?

00:49:09.668 --> 00:49:13.668
When I was really little, I want to say first grade, I wanted to be a lawyer.

00:49:14.808 --> 00:49:18.808
And largely because my great uncle Mike and my father are both lawyers.

00:49:19.248 --> 00:49:23.968
And I thought I was really good at arguing. And so I figured this is great for me.

00:49:24.088 --> 00:49:27.368
I'm going to be a lawyer just like them. I'm really good at arguing and making

00:49:27.368 --> 00:49:30.448
my case and asking questions and things like that.

00:49:30.448 --> 00:49:37.688
And as I got older and then through school, I sort of navigated towards history

00:49:37.688 --> 00:49:40.468
and really enjoyed learning and writing.

00:49:41.088 --> 00:49:44.528
I was one of those weird kids that really liked writing papers as I got,

00:49:44.568 --> 00:49:49.008
you know, into high school and things. I did presidential classroom in high

00:49:49.008 --> 00:49:52.268
school where you do almost like a mock Congress down in Washington, D.C.

00:49:53.588 --> 00:49:59.428
And I knew I wanted to be in D.C. then. And my uncle had been in politics and he's my godfather.

00:49:59.648 --> 00:50:03.548
And so I was also really inspired by him and his journey and his role.

00:50:03.888 --> 00:50:08.108
And just I think those tying those two things of having wanted to be a lawyer,

00:50:08.248 --> 00:50:13.028
but then also really enjoyed the writing and being part of something bigger than myself.

00:50:13.408 --> 00:50:16.728
Politics was just that natural fit for me. And so in high school,

00:50:16.808 --> 00:50:21.228
I knew I wanted to pursue political science and history in college.

00:50:21.408 --> 00:50:25.908
And my sisters both went to school in D.C., so I chose to go to school in Baltimore,

00:50:26.488 --> 00:50:30.348
or Baltimore, if you're from the area, and make my way down there.

00:50:30.448 --> 00:50:33.848
But I wanted to have my own experience in my own little city.

00:50:34.008 --> 00:50:39.388
So I'm happy with how I did it, but was able to do internships and be part of the political scene.

00:50:39.508 --> 00:50:42.508
But it started at a young age. I also wanted to be the first female president

00:50:42.508 --> 00:50:46.988
when I was in first grade. So I had real, you know, aspirations as a young kid.

00:50:47.728 --> 00:50:53.528
Yeah, I definitely can relate to that. I think and I tell this story a lot and

00:50:53.528 --> 00:50:55.688
some people don't believe me because of the age.

00:50:55.828 --> 00:51:00.068
But ever since I was three years old, I wanted to be president of the United

00:51:00.068 --> 00:51:03.248
States and to date myself. It was like.

00:51:04.185 --> 00:51:07.405
I had a set of world book encyclopedias. Yes.

00:51:08.125 --> 00:51:12.405
And it was like the coolest section was the president section because the first

00:51:12.405 --> 00:51:15.805
two pages are just the portraits of the presidents. And I said,

00:51:15.985 --> 00:51:17.445
I want my picture right there.

00:51:17.625 --> 00:51:22.785
And it was like, you know, I knew all presidential trivia, all that kind of stuff.

00:51:22.905 --> 00:51:28.505
I mean, I just really, outside of baseball, that was my passion as a young kid.

00:51:29.285 --> 00:51:33.205
Isn't it funny that, yeah. No, sorry, go ahead. No, I was just saying,

00:51:33.565 --> 00:51:37.345
you know, and I didn't have the background like you where I didn't have anybody

00:51:37.345 --> 00:51:41.585
in my immediate family engaged in politics, but they always voted.

00:51:42.085 --> 00:51:46.925
And so I would go down to the polling place and my great aunt would sit me down

00:51:46.925 --> 00:51:49.925
and while she was babysitting me and we watched the news.

00:51:50.245 --> 00:51:53.605
So I was learning all the people through the news and stuff as a child.

00:51:53.605 --> 00:51:58.305
So, yeah, I just, I just, that's how I got indoctrinated.

00:51:58.545 --> 00:52:03.665
And like I tell people, my precinct captain was also my Little League baseball coach up in Chicago.

00:52:03.665 --> 00:52:09.905
So it was just always in my environment. But, you know, it's still kind of amazed

00:52:09.905 --> 00:52:14.605
people that I pursued politics the way I did. Absolutely.

00:52:15.185 --> 00:52:19.285
Yeah, especially just having the surroundings and you just gravitating towards it.

00:52:19.505 --> 00:52:22.005
But I also think what you said about having an encyclopedia,

00:52:22.225 --> 00:52:25.245
it does make me laugh because I have, you know, my little cousins,

00:52:25.445 --> 00:52:29.025
nieces, nephews, they're never going to know what it was like to go through

00:52:29.025 --> 00:52:32.965
the encyclopedia and have these ginormous books that at some point in time over

00:52:32.965 --> 00:52:36.545
the last 10, 15 years, I think my parents used it to like, I think their like

00:52:36.545 --> 00:52:37.785
baseboard broke or something.

00:52:37.785 --> 00:52:41.365
They're like using it to hold up the baseboard of a bed, like these massive

00:52:41.365 --> 00:52:43.905
Britannica encyclopedia books.

00:52:44.545 --> 00:52:47.625
Yeah, yeah. They don't. It's like what? All this.

00:52:47.845 --> 00:52:51.245
These were like books. How many books did you have? I know. It's pretty.

00:52:51.405 --> 00:52:53.705
It was in alphabetical order. It was pretty, pretty.

00:52:55.156 --> 00:53:00.756
All right. So let's what what what have you retained from being on Team Boehner

00:53:00.756 --> 00:53:05.676
and Team Kinzinger that has influenced you the most in your political career?

00:53:06.236 --> 00:53:12.136
There's so many Boehnerisms that come to mind, but I just think the way that he also has Boehner.

00:53:12.296 --> 00:53:16.496
So Boehner, when from when I first started as an intern during my college years,

00:53:16.656 --> 00:53:19.816
I interned on the House floor.

00:53:20.016 --> 00:53:22.896
So through the Republican cloakroom, which is a really unique

00:53:22.896 --> 00:53:25.896
internship to have but because you're just you're

00:53:25.896 --> 00:53:28.776
you're there when members are taking phone calls in these phone

00:53:28.776 --> 00:53:32.096
booths because they're not supposed to have their phones out on the floor you're helping

00:53:32.096 --> 00:53:34.916
them figure out which votes they're on and different things like

00:53:34.916 --> 00:53:38.196
speaking arrangements and speaking order for house

00:53:38.196 --> 00:53:41.136
floor speeches but I think that what I saw

00:53:41.136 --> 00:53:44.376
from that point through Boehner's time as speaker and

00:53:44.376 --> 00:53:48.296
till the very end and even till now you know he really does

00:53:48.296 --> 00:53:51.016
treat everyone the same way so whether

00:53:51.016 --> 00:53:53.816
I was an intern or if I were the cheapest staff he really

00:53:53.816 --> 00:53:57.576
was just himself and I respected

00:53:57.576 --> 00:54:00.536
that immensely I also love that he had his door open he

00:54:00.536 --> 00:54:03.656
had a really good friendship with several members but Democrats would

00:54:03.656 --> 00:54:07.676
come at the time I remember when he was speaker Harry Reid's office was the

00:54:07.676 --> 00:54:12.356
senate majority leaders and there was a way to go from Harry Reid's office around

00:54:12.356 --> 00:54:16.056
to the back and then go into Boehner's office if he wanted to not go in the

00:54:16.056 --> 00:54:18.636
hallway where the press was and there were plenty of members who would come

00:54:18.636 --> 00:54:22.396
back there and want to chat with him and the door was always open.

00:54:22.776 --> 00:54:29.056
And I think I take away from that is the ability to disagree without being disagreeable,

00:54:29.176 --> 00:54:33.096
but open to conversation, open to having that conversation, even if you're not

00:54:33.096 --> 00:54:34.816
going to end up in agreement.

00:54:35.784 --> 00:54:39.404
You'll know where the other person stands by allowing a conversation to happen.

00:54:39.884 --> 00:54:43.964
And so I think that's just the way that he operated and wanted to take a small

00:54:43.964 --> 00:54:46.924
step forward, even if it was a small step forward, just to get the ball moving,

00:54:47.164 --> 00:54:50.504
recognizing that you can't do everything on your own and that you need to be

00:54:50.504 --> 00:54:52.704
able to be willing to work with others to get there.

00:54:53.344 --> 00:54:56.784
Boehner taught me a lot of things and being part of his team taught me a lot of things. I

00:54:56.784 --> 00:55:00.184
think with Kinzinger you know it was such a interesting time

00:55:00.184 --> 00:55:02.884
to go from where I started with him you know beginning of

00:55:02.884 --> 00:55:06.024
2016 through to when he

00:55:06.024 --> 00:55:10.524
was on the January 6th committee and doing those hearings and just you know

00:55:10.524 --> 00:55:15.724
remembering that you know something that I told him was you know when he was

00:55:15.724 --> 00:55:19.524
asked to be on the January 6th committee it was something about it's a tough

00:55:19.524 --> 00:55:23.664
decision to make but when you look back on it will you be able to sit look at

00:55:23.664 --> 00:55:25.464
yourself in the mirror and be proud of what you did.

00:55:25.944 --> 00:55:30.024
And I think of that a lot. I think about when I go on TV interviews,

00:55:30.124 --> 00:55:33.904
I'm going to say what I believe because I'm not beholden to anything else but myself.

00:55:34.684 --> 00:55:40.624
And I think for a lot of us who work for Team Kinzinger, recognizing the importance

00:55:40.624 --> 00:55:43.844
of that moment, but also the importance of standing up for what you believe

00:55:43.844 --> 00:55:46.804
in and not being afraid of what the political fallout may be,

00:55:46.904 --> 00:55:49.164
but because you know that it's the right thing to do.

00:55:50.004 --> 00:55:55.584
And again, in the grand of things. You'd rather be true to who you are than be something else.

00:55:56.606 --> 00:55:59.566
I'll take that with me every day. Yeah, yeah.

00:55:59.786 --> 00:56:04.486
And that's, you know, when I think about those guys,

00:56:05.146 --> 00:56:08.846
even though we're on the opposite side of the aisle, you know,

00:56:09.106 --> 00:56:13.506
it just reminds me of when I was in the legislature and just the fact,

00:56:13.746 --> 00:56:15.606
you know, I didn't have the secret passageway.

00:56:15.766 --> 00:56:19.826
Because in Georgia, I found out there is a secret passageway between,

00:56:20.746 --> 00:56:24.926
well, it was like the chair of the Black Caucus had a secret passageway to the governor's office.

00:56:25.226 --> 00:56:28.606
I found that out. He picked that office because it had the passageway.

00:56:29.666 --> 00:56:35.326
But, you know, we had like the back couch. And I'll tell the story real quick.

00:56:35.526 --> 00:56:41.666
So when I moved to the back of the chamber, when I had enough seniority to pick my own seat,

00:56:42.486 --> 00:56:48.466
me and my Republican counterpart, Philip Gunn, who ended up being Speaker of

00:56:48.466 --> 00:56:52.926
the House after I was out, we were talking and then another guy came.

00:56:52.926 --> 00:56:55.406
I forgot, was it Steve Holland or somebody else? But anyway,

00:56:56.026 --> 00:56:59.526
it was about four of us eventually were talking in the back and we were standing.

00:57:01.366 --> 00:57:04.926
And one of us said, I can't remember which one. I don't think it was me.

00:57:05.066 --> 00:57:08.706
But one of us said, you know, it'd be nice to have a couch back here to just

00:57:08.706 --> 00:57:10.646
kind of sit back and talk instead of just standing.

00:57:10.986 --> 00:57:15.066
And the next day, I think there was a porter nearby that heard that because

00:57:15.066 --> 00:57:17.286
the next day there was a couch back there.

00:57:17.286 --> 00:57:20.866
And oh man, the meetings that we used to have back in the back,

00:57:21.066 --> 00:57:26.146
it was like voter ID or something about the budget or anything like that.

00:57:26.486 --> 00:57:29.486
We were solving the problem. Whatever was going on up in the front,

00:57:29.726 --> 00:57:32.186
we were working it out back in the back.

00:57:32.306 --> 00:57:34.566
So I definitely relate to that.

00:57:34.706 --> 00:57:40.806
And I miss that politics is not like that now, especially at the federal level. Me too.

00:57:41.386 --> 00:57:46.766
What are your thoughts on the No Kings protests that have happened this year?

00:57:47.676 --> 00:57:51.556
You know, I think it's really telling that so many people turned out.

00:57:52.336 --> 00:57:56.136
I've seen so many different takes on it. And speaking as a Republican,

00:57:56.396 --> 00:58:00.296
you know, I was disappointed with Speaker Johnson saying that it was a hate America.

00:58:01.216 --> 00:58:04.416
I think as we say it, it was a hate America rally is what he called it or something.

00:58:05.216 --> 00:58:07.736
I don't see how you could say that. And I'm saying this as a Republican.

00:58:07.876 --> 00:58:12.156
I don't see how you could see people who are frustrated with their government

00:58:12.156 --> 00:58:16.016
peacefully protesting and say they're unhappy with it.

00:58:16.016 --> 00:58:20.836
There's nothing more American than using your voice and expressing it's what

00:58:20.836 --> 00:58:24.396
I mean, if you think about America's foundation, how we came to be here,

00:58:24.536 --> 00:58:29.576
we're about to celebrate 250 years of this grand experiment of our democracy and this republic.

00:58:29.856 --> 00:58:32.716
And it all started with saying enough is enough.

00:58:32.916 --> 00:58:36.976
We're not OK with what this is. And we're we're we're advocating for a change.

00:58:37.136 --> 00:58:40.996
We're advocating for something different. And so you don't have to agree,

00:58:41.156 --> 00:58:44.556
and I'm speaking this to all people, you don't have to agree with them,

00:58:44.756 --> 00:58:46.676
with people who are protesting.

00:58:46.776 --> 00:58:50.296
You don't have to agree with them. But you cannot say that they don't have the right to do so.

00:58:50.716 --> 00:58:53.796
And I made this equation, because I don't think it's the same thing,

00:58:53.816 --> 00:58:58.176
obviously, what happened on January 6th turned horrifically violent and just...

00:58:59.190 --> 00:59:03.350
You know, it was an insurrection. And I know there's people who say that it wasn't, but it was.

00:59:03.490 --> 00:59:08.310
But what started out as a rally to say that they were feeling as though their

00:59:08.310 --> 00:59:10.470
voices weren't heard, they didn't agree with the government,

00:59:10.570 --> 00:59:11.530
they're upset with the government.

00:59:11.890 --> 00:59:15.850
And so initially, what started out as a rally, which is, you know,

00:59:16.010 --> 00:59:20.770
people who supported that, how can you then say that the people who are rallying

00:59:20.770 --> 00:59:23.090
against what they don't like, they feel like their voices aren't being heard,

00:59:23.350 --> 00:59:26.210
they're frustrated with the government, and they want to speak up about it.

00:59:26.210 --> 00:59:29.570
So I just think it's hypocritical to sit there and try and call it something else.

00:59:29.830 --> 00:59:32.930
But so I think that it's a good thing for Democrats to have this rallying cry

00:59:32.930 --> 00:59:35.770
because for a little while I feel as though Democrats have felt a little bit

00:59:35.770 --> 00:59:37.730
lost and kind of directionless.

00:59:37.950 --> 00:59:40.470
And this has given them something to really galvanize around.

00:59:40.710 --> 00:59:44.070
And it's it's bringing out, I mean, millions of people.

00:59:44.330 --> 00:59:46.530
It's just it's really impressive.

00:59:47.450 --> 00:59:51.630
Well, you know, if I was part of the press corps, I would have asked the speaker

00:59:51.630 --> 00:59:58.910
this question. What is the difference between a No Kings rally and a Tea Party rally?

00:59:59.676 --> 01:00:04.376
Mm hmm. Because, you know, the Democrats were not happy about the Tea Party

01:00:04.376 --> 01:00:09.936
rallies, but none of I don't remember any of them saying all these people are

01:00:09.936 --> 01:00:11.476
unpatriotic and all that stuff.

01:00:11.636 --> 01:00:15.856
It was like, hey, guys, we got a bunch of people out here in the streets that

01:00:15.856 --> 01:00:17.176
don't like what we're doing.

01:00:17.436 --> 01:00:21.316
And, you know, we got to figure out how we're going to navigate that. Right.

01:00:22.096 --> 01:00:27.576
And, you know, I don't even remember the Democrats really even saying anything

01:00:27.576 --> 01:00:32.656
about the Tea Party other than, you know, they were just, you know,

01:00:32.736 --> 01:00:35.776
dealing with particular policies about the protesters themselves.

01:00:35.796 --> 01:00:38.596
I don't remember that. Now, they may have. I don't know.

01:00:38.816 --> 01:00:42.916
But I don't remember that. I think we were we were at a different time where

01:00:42.916 --> 01:00:47.036
it was like, OK, well, these people out in the streets, that means that we got

01:00:47.036 --> 01:00:51.036
to mobilize our folks so, you know, we can get reelected, you know.

01:00:51.036 --> 01:00:55.396
And that was kind of the mood around the midterm, I guess, in 2010.

01:00:55.836 --> 01:01:04.896
So I don't know. I just, and it kind of leads to my next question about Charlie Kirk's assassination.

01:01:05.756 --> 01:01:10.956
And my question was, what was your hope or what is your hope about American

01:01:10.956 --> 01:01:13.976
politics in the aftermath of that?

01:01:13.976 --> 01:01:20.096
And I asked that because I saw something and I don't think I heard all of your

01:01:20.096 --> 01:01:25.216
interview, but it seemed like it was it kind of, you know, it touched you in a certain way.

01:01:26.316 --> 01:01:32.616
And you weren't crying emotional, but you you could I could tell that that bothered you a great deal.

01:01:32.996 --> 01:01:37.916
So just kind of talk about what was your thoughts like when you heard it happened

01:01:37.916 --> 01:01:40.976
and what would you like to see going forward?

01:01:42.266 --> 01:01:46.146
So I know the interview you're talking about, and it was, I was slated to do

01:01:46.146 --> 01:01:52.326
Bloomberg and prior, you know, to that incident happening, that tragedy happening.

01:01:52.606 --> 01:01:56.886
And so I went on air maybe less than an hour after I was confirmed that he was

01:01:56.886 --> 01:02:01.146
killed. And I had seen the videos that were posted on X or Twitter.

01:02:01.466 --> 01:02:03.886
Not that I wanted to see them, but they were being, you know,

01:02:04.086 --> 01:02:09.946
posted in real time. And just the idea of that happening and then watching it

01:02:09.946 --> 01:02:14.066
happening just truly struck me for anyone in that situation.

01:02:14.406 --> 01:02:18.066
I mean, you or I were sitting out there talking at a group and that would happen.

01:02:18.266 --> 01:02:20.226
That's disgusting and horrific.

01:02:20.446 --> 01:02:24.586
And why is this political violence in this country and just violence in general?

01:02:24.766 --> 01:02:26.186
We have become so numb to it.

01:02:26.606 --> 01:02:29.126
And I, in that moment...

01:02:29.672 --> 01:02:35.092
Couldn't fathom that we've come this low, that we've come so low that we would

01:02:35.092 --> 01:02:38.592
go out to kill someone because of their political stances.

01:02:39.132 --> 01:02:43.872
I'm not defending anything that he has said at all, nor would I,

01:02:44.152 --> 01:02:51.012
because I don't largely agree with what he had said and what he espoused on his podcast.

01:02:51.432 --> 01:02:53.772
But it doesn't mean that I don't think he has the right to do so.

01:02:54.092 --> 01:02:58.852
I think he has that same right that any one of us has as far as using a platform

01:02:58.852 --> 01:03:02.072
to speak to people because of the fact that we live here in America.

01:03:02.672 --> 01:03:08.792
And my concern and my sadness came from the state of politics in general.

01:03:09.372 --> 01:03:10.312
You know, we talked about why

01:03:10.312 --> 01:03:12.932
I wanted to be in this in the first place is something bigger than myself.

01:03:13.152 --> 01:03:16.392
And then to see it devolve the way that it has, even from the time that I worked

01:03:16.392 --> 01:03:18.032
for John Boehner, it is devolved.

01:03:18.232 --> 01:03:21.232
You know, again, I talked about how much I enjoyed watching members of Congress

01:03:21.232 --> 01:03:25.632
from all walks of life and all political leanings come and talk to him or

01:03:26.032 --> 01:03:29.612
have a glass of wine or maybe, you know, have a cigarette because Boehner,

01:03:29.972 --> 01:03:31.232
you know, just whatever he, in

01:03:31.232 --> 01:03:34.152
that office, they were just able and comfortable to come and talk to him.

01:03:34.212 --> 01:03:36.972
In fact, they felt comfortable enough to knock on the door and say,

01:03:37.052 --> 01:03:39.052
hey, can I have a few minutes with them? Absolutely.

01:03:39.732 --> 01:03:43.452
I don't think that happens anymore. And that makes me sad for politics that

01:03:43.452 --> 01:03:48.072
we, and you hear it from members who use this language where they talk about

01:03:48.072 --> 01:03:49.792
each other as if one of their enemies.

01:03:50.592 --> 01:03:53.932
And that shouldn't be the case. I don't think that we have.

01:03:54.789 --> 01:03:58.969
Gotten a handle on it yet. Obviously, what happened with Charlie Kirk shows

01:03:58.969 --> 01:04:00.049
me we certainly haven't.

01:04:00.309 --> 01:04:04.469
And I just don't know how much lower we can go till we hit the bottom,

01:04:04.589 --> 01:04:07.469
because I would have thought after January 6th, that was bottom, and then it wasn't.

01:04:07.569 --> 01:04:09.809
And so we've continued to hit further and further.

01:04:10.089 --> 01:04:15.749
And I mourn for what used to be normal political discourse.

01:04:16.489 --> 01:04:21.229
I hope for it again. And I think part of what this is and what I'm trying to

01:04:21.229 --> 01:04:24.689
do is to bring that back and to have normal conversations with people who,

01:04:25.149 --> 01:04:29.249
even when, and especially when we don't agree, how to be able to have a conversation.

01:04:29.869 --> 01:04:35.149
Because you can leave it there, right? We can say, I don't agree with you here, but I hear you.

01:04:35.229 --> 01:04:37.889
So thanks for sharing your viewpoint. Here's mine.

01:04:38.429 --> 01:04:40.849
That's okay to leave a conversation there. It doesn't need to have a resolution

01:04:40.849 --> 01:04:43.109
in terms of, let's now find a way for us to agree.

01:04:43.189 --> 01:04:46.849
We don't have to, but we can have conversations and continue on and then talk

01:04:46.849 --> 01:04:51.109
about, you know, the game tonight or what's going on this weekend.

01:04:51.309 --> 01:04:56.549
You know, it just, We've lost that ability and I I hope we can bring it back

01:04:56.549 --> 01:05:02.309
and I think that's my hope is that having broader civic engagement and reminding people that.

01:05:03.413 --> 01:05:09.393
Conversation and honest conversation without getting too emotional and too partisan

01:05:09.393 --> 01:05:10.793
will help us in the long run.

01:05:11.493 --> 01:05:17.193
Yeah. And, you know, that's exactly what I'm trying to do with this podcast.

01:05:17.193 --> 01:05:24.693
And I think there's others that are trying to do the same thing, but I don't know.

01:05:24.893 --> 01:05:31.933
I just, it's a harder road than I thought it would be.

01:05:32.173 --> 01:05:35.313
And when people say, well, Eric, are you going to get back in?

01:05:35.373 --> 01:05:36.673
You're going to run for something else?

01:05:37.033 --> 01:05:42.553
I said, I'm a dinosaur. I'm from that age where it's like, I could sit and have

01:05:42.553 --> 01:05:43.613
drinks with a Republican.

01:05:43.613 --> 01:05:48.533
I could, you know, play golf. We could talk about anything.

01:05:48.533 --> 01:05:51.613
And then we can sit there and debate about a particular issue,

01:05:51.793 --> 01:05:54.753
you know, and try to convince each other which way, because that's the only

01:05:54.753 --> 01:06:01.413
way you get stuff done in that kind of arena is that you've got to find out

01:06:01.413 --> 01:06:02.733
what people are thinking.

01:06:03.073 --> 01:06:08.253
You know, I was a crazy dude and when I ran for statewide office,

01:06:08.853 --> 01:06:12.813
it gave me a different perspective the next legislative session I showed up

01:06:12.813 --> 01:06:16.833
in because I was in everybody's district at one point campaigning.

01:06:17.173 --> 01:06:22.793
And so it's like, so that's why so-and-so votes the way he does or that's why

01:06:22.793 --> 01:06:26.853
she takes this position as opposed to, you know, some other stuff.

01:06:27.013 --> 01:06:31.393
So I just think We got to get back to a level of understanding.

01:06:32.133 --> 01:06:37.073
And, you know, I don't think bullets are designed for negotiation.

01:06:37.733 --> 01:06:45.253
That's kind of my thought process. Do you think Mamdani's populism is the future

01:06:45.253 --> 01:06:46.653
of the Democratic Party?

01:06:47.776 --> 01:06:52.936
On a broad scale, no, but I do think that his tactics, and I know it's been

01:06:52.936 --> 01:06:56.496
talked about by Democrats at large, but they realize that the grassroots efforts

01:06:56.496 --> 01:06:58.916
and the meeting people where they are,

01:06:59.356 --> 01:07:03.156
which is really getting into, which I think is a tactic that most people should use.

01:07:03.216 --> 01:07:04.676
And it's kind of what you were just saying right then, right?

01:07:04.736 --> 01:07:05.676
You were meeting people where they were.

01:07:05.816 --> 01:07:09.156
You were going into their communities and you were understanding where they're

01:07:09.156 --> 01:07:13.416
coming from because you saw and you talked to people and you heard from them

01:07:13.416 --> 01:07:16.496
and heard what they were going through or what they were focused on or worried about.

01:07:16.496 --> 01:07:22.576
And I think what Mamdani did was he went to where people were and understood

01:07:22.576 --> 01:07:24.496
that they're hurting here.

01:07:24.696 --> 01:07:29.116
They're worried about this. And yes, he has his own aspirations.

01:07:29.116 --> 01:07:32.096
He has his own political feelings and things of that nature.

01:07:32.376 --> 01:07:37.276
And Democrats at large aren't going to agree with that. but him meeting people

01:07:37.276 --> 01:07:41.176
where they were and people where they are in New York City that's resonated

01:07:41.176 --> 01:07:45.136
and Democrats should absolutely adopt a more.

01:07:46.336 --> 01:07:50.316
Everyman approach to politics, which they haven't done in the last few cycles,

01:07:50.316 --> 01:07:55.316
and really focusing on people at the grassroots level, because it's something

01:07:55.316 --> 01:08:02.736
that can be clearly tapped into and also better represented if they listen to their constituents.

01:08:02.736 --> 01:08:09.156
Yeah, because, you know, first of all, that's the reason why I've admired you so,

01:08:09.276 --> 01:08:18.896
because that's very brilliant that it's not about the specific policies that he's espousing,

01:08:18.896 --> 01:08:24.516
but the fact that he's kind of talking to people, doing this retail politics,

01:08:24.876 --> 01:08:27.376
going door to door, listening to people.

01:08:27.376 --> 01:08:33.816
And so some of his ideas have shaped from what he's heard, whether they're realistic

01:08:33.816 --> 01:08:36.716
or not, whether they're attainable or not.

01:08:36.976 --> 01:08:41.076
The fact is, is that people, when they're going to that voting booth,

01:08:41.276 --> 01:08:46.176
say, I'm voting for that guy because he at least addressed something that has

01:08:46.176 --> 01:08:48.036
been bothering me for a long time.

01:08:48.676 --> 01:08:57.176
And, you know, he's different than Obama or Harold Washington to date myself.

01:08:57.376 --> 01:09:06.076
In Chicago, is that his campaign is not about a hope for an eloquent speaker

01:09:06.076 --> 01:09:12.976
or a dynamic representative of whether it's the United States or a particular city.

01:09:13.636 --> 01:09:18.676
He is being a true public servant.

01:09:18.796 --> 01:09:22.976
At least that's how he's carrying himself out. It's like, look, I want to be the mayor.

01:09:23.556 --> 01:09:27.136
If you were coming to the mayor's office, what would you complain about, right?

01:09:27.376 --> 01:09:32.776
And he's and he's and he's and he's trying his best to incorporate that in his thing.

01:09:32.896 --> 01:09:37.756
And it's and it's working for him. And I think other other Democrats need to

01:09:37.756 --> 01:09:39.316
do that. I heard somebody saying.

01:09:40.493 --> 01:09:48.293
That he was the embodiment of what people have been trying to tell Democrats that, you know,

01:09:48.453 --> 01:09:54.353
don't come across as a college professor giving a lecture about policy and this

01:09:54.353 --> 01:09:56.673
is why the universe works the way it does.

01:09:57.053 --> 01:10:00.453
That people don't want that. They don't want to feel like you're talking down to them.

01:10:00.553 --> 01:10:03.993
They want to feel like they're investing because their people are investing

01:10:03.993 --> 01:10:08.113
in you. People are giving their trust to you to handle that business because

01:10:08.113 --> 01:10:12.213
they don't have time to go to the Capitol building or City Hall and do that.

01:10:12.633 --> 01:10:19.553
But you asked for the job, so we want to trust that you can do it and have some integrity about it.

01:10:19.573 --> 01:10:23.913
Because even if you don't agree with his policies or his beliefs,

01:10:24.193 --> 01:10:28.373
a lot of times people gravitate to the fact that, well, you know,

01:10:28.493 --> 01:10:31.433
people have been jumping on him about that and he stood firm on that.

01:10:31.813 --> 01:10:33.133
Hey, I got to respect that.

01:10:33.553 --> 01:10:36.473
That sounds like to me that he's got integrity, you know?

01:10:36.773 --> 01:10:43.633
And so it's really, really simple, but it just seems so complicated to get political

01:10:43.633 --> 01:10:47.393
people in this day and age to figure that out. I don't know.

01:10:47.873 --> 01:10:50.773
No, and you're right. I mean, you can disagree with him, which I,

01:10:50.913 --> 01:10:54.753
you know, I don't live in New York City, but you can disagree with him on a whole host of things.

01:10:55.273 --> 01:10:57.993
But when you're in that voting booth and you've already had a conversation with

01:10:57.993 --> 01:11:02.373
him or you feel as though He heard you and he's willing to do the job and he's

01:11:02.373 --> 01:11:03.713
gonna at least really try.

01:11:04.393 --> 01:11:08.613
For you That can make you vote for him simply on that alone because again,

01:11:08.753 --> 01:11:11.533
you also look at your other options It's not great, right? Let's just be serious.

01:11:11.713 --> 01:11:15.533
It's not great So you're like, okay This guy really seems like he wants to try

01:11:15.533 --> 01:11:18.853
and he seems like he's gonna try and do a good job Like it may not I don't agree

01:11:18.853 --> 01:11:22.213
with everything But he seems like he heard me and he heard my community.

01:11:23.309 --> 01:11:25.689
Let's give it a go. You know, I think that there's more likely than not people

01:11:25.689 --> 01:11:31.029
who are in that boat, right? Who are saying, he seems like he wants to try, you know?

01:11:31.169 --> 01:11:35.029
I don't know that I agree with him on a lot of things, but I care about cost here.

01:11:35.169 --> 01:11:39.569
I care about, you know, my kids getting to school and having the bus system to go to.

01:11:39.969 --> 01:11:42.649
All right, let's give this a go. So I think that's part of it, too.

01:11:43.009 --> 01:11:48.049
Yeah, and see, I'm of an age where I remember when Kura Sliwa was cool,

01:11:48.229 --> 01:11:48.909
right? With the Guardian.

01:11:49.849 --> 01:11:55.289
I'm of an age. That beret. Yeah. And Mario Cuomo was, you know,

01:11:55.789 --> 01:11:59.729
it's like, oh, his son, you know, I'm thinking Cuomo's are going to be like

01:11:59.729 --> 01:12:00.889
the Kennedys. You know what I'm saying?

01:12:01.509 --> 01:12:08.149
Yeah. So, yeah, it's it's kind of disappointing. But politics is also about timing.

01:12:09.649 --> 01:12:14.669
And Mamdani is in the right place at the right time to be in the position that

01:12:14.669 --> 01:12:17.229
he's in. Who's winning the shutdown right now?

01:12:18.384 --> 01:12:21.364
Well, I can tell you, we're the ones who are losing, right? The American people

01:12:21.364 --> 01:12:23.444
are the ones that are losing. That's for sure.

01:12:23.924 --> 01:12:26.764
The scary part is that both sides think that they are winning.

01:12:27.124 --> 01:12:31.164
So you ask Democrats, they feel pretty confident that they are in a good place,

01:12:31.284 --> 01:12:36.264
that they are doing what's needed to galvanize their voters and their base to

01:12:36.264 --> 01:12:39.624
show that they're putting up this fight and fighting for them.

01:12:40.444 --> 01:12:44.984
Republicans stand firm in that Democrats are causing the shutdown and that they're

01:12:44.984 --> 01:12:46.144
the ones that started it.

01:12:46.144 --> 01:12:51.544
And that, you know, and I've even said this a couple times on TV, but, you know.

01:12:52.284 --> 01:12:55.924
When everyone gets so upset about not having a conversation and the president

01:12:55.924 --> 01:12:59.124
not being willing to talk, you know, with Democratic leaders,

01:12:59.264 --> 01:13:01.484
it is what happened, you know, in 2013.

01:13:02.084 --> 01:13:06.064
President Obama didn't want to talk to us as Republicans in Congress until the

01:13:06.064 --> 01:13:09.204
threat of the shutdown was over because having that hanging over him and having

01:13:09.204 --> 01:13:12.764
it hang over the government, he felt was not even a non-starter.

01:13:12.764 --> 01:13:19.384
And so it eventually was resolved through very little wins for Republicans, as I recall.

01:13:19.704 --> 01:13:25.384
But the Senate side was able to do a very small thing to get the shutdown to

01:13:25.384 --> 01:13:29.684
end and then conversations resumed after that. And so I do think in that context,

01:13:29.984 --> 01:13:31.604
it's what's going to have to happen.

01:13:32.004 --> 01:13:36.024
Senator Thune is going to have to show good faith effort to his Democratic colleagues

01:13:36.024 --> 01:13:40.544
in the Senate that a vote and or not even just a vote on the subsidies,

01:13:40.704 --> 01:13:43.784
but an actual package, I think, needs to be put in place.

01:13:43.784 --> 01:13:49.024
Because what's confusing to viewers and to people who aren't necessarily in

01:13:49.024 --> 01:13:53.744
the weeds on this is that you have one side saying that healthcare costs are

01:13:53.744 --> 01:13:54.804
going to go up, which is fact.

01:13:54.804 --> 01:13:58.924
They are going to go up, but they also may go up regardless of this thing getting

01:13:58.924 --> 01:14:02.284
extended because the subsidies are really, it's for the insurance companies.

01:14:02.564 --> 01:14:07.684
And it's a band-aid that was put in place during the pandemic.

01:14:07.684 --> 01:14:09.904
So it was from 21 to 25. And...

01:14:11.138 --> 01:14:14.558
It was because, quite frankly, Obamacare hasn't worked out the way that they

01:14:14.558 --> 01:14:16.478
had hoped. So they have to do some restructuring.

01:14:16.618 --> 01:14:19.358
There has to be something done. They need to do some reforms.

01:14:20.818 --> 01:14:26.278
And Republicans, anything that even says ACA but Obamacare, they turn their

01:14:26.278 --> 01:14:28.818
nose up at and refuse to even want to touch it with the 10-foot pole.

01:14:28.918 --> 01:14:30.658
Well, that's not helpful at all because they have to.

01:14:30.878 --> 01:14:34.618
This is the law of the land. So you need to be able to work within the framework

01:14:34.618 --> 01:14:35.858
that is the law of the land.

01:14:36.078 --> 01:14:38.898
And I think that's just frustrating to people on the outside.

01:14:38.898 --> 01:14:41.018
It's like, well, listen, you're both sitting in your corners.

01:14:41.138 --> 01:14:42.798
You've got to come to the middle.

01:14:43.078 --> 01:14:48.138
And I think that has to start with ending the shutdown and then soon taking

01:14:48.138 --> 01:14:52.898
the reins and putting together, whether it's, you know, Senate Finance Committee chairs,

01:14:53.198 --> 01:14:56.338
whether it's the Senate Health Committee chairs, bringing them into a room and

01:14:56.338 --> 01:14:59.978
having them flesh out, OK, what do we need to do to make the system better?

01:14:59.978 --> 01:15:02.138
Because it's not working the way it's supposed to.

01:15:02.318 --> 01:15:04.858
We can't keep putting a Band-Aid on it to help out the insurance company so

01:15:04.858 --> 01:15:09.278
that they won't jack up prices on consumers, which is what's happening or what's going to happen.

01:15:09.898 --> 01:15:15.698
And how do we do that? And I just think that it's not as simple as one vote

01:15:15.698 --> 01:15:17.998
here is going to save you from having higher prices.

01:15:18.318 --> 01:15:21.938
And, you know, it's just not as simple as both sides are making it seem,

01:15:22.118 --> 01:15:25.958
but it has to start at the end of a shutdown because we hurt as Americans.

01:15:25.958 --> 01:15:29.118
We're the ones who are going to hurt with this continue to go on any longer.

01:15:29.118 --> 01:15:31.378
Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with that.

01:15:31.838 --> 01:15:36.998
You know, I just think that, you know, and I've, you know, in my legislative

01:15:36.998 --> 01:15:42.058
career, I've shut down the chamber individually and all that.

01:15:42.198 --> 01:15:44.718
But, you know, there was an end game. Right.

01:15:45.338 --> 01:15:54.958
And yeah. And so, you know, what I'm I get the fact that the Democrats are saying that.

01:15:55.429 --> 01:15:59.789
Yeah. Well, this is what we want. Right. And now and then Thune has said,

01:16:00.009 --> 01:16:05.389
well, let's let's let's keep the government open and then we can talk about it.

01:16:05.649 --> 01:16:12.289
Now, Thune has it can't be tone deaf to not understand that there's no trust in the room.

01:16:13.489 --> 01:16:18.029
Right. And more than just saying, oh, well, we're going to talk about it.

01:16:18.029 --> 01:16:23.289
You know, it's like even when it was friendlier times in politics when I served,

01:16:23.569 --> 01:16:29.769
yeah, it's like, are you saying that or somebody pushing a button to say that?

01:16:29.869 --> 01:16:33.449
Because if that's the case, let's let's have that conversation.

01:16:33.449 --> 01:16:41.409
If, you know, if the guy at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is not agreeing to that,

01:16:41.629 --> 01:16:43.189
we don't trust what you're saying.

01:16:43.449 --> 01:16:48.129
Because the minute we say, okay, we're voting for it and the shutdown's over

01:16:48.129 --> 01:16:53.329
with, then it's like, you know, and we don't get anything before December.

01:16:53.329 --> 01:16:55.669
It's like, bruh, uh-uh, no.

01:16:55.849 --> 01:16:58.589
And then that's going to make it harder and harder. Same with,

01:16:58.589 --> 01:17:03.409
like, Representative Grijalva. And I, yeah, you know, I'm trying to say her name,

01:17:03.509 --> 01:17:04.789
right. I'm going to learn it. I know, Same.

01:17:04.989 --> 01:17:07.209
That's okay. We'll get there. But it's like,

01:17:08.186 --> 01:17:12.746
If I'm Speaker Johnson and I need one vote, I know I'll never get her because

01:17:12.746 --> 01:17:15.246
of the way that he's treated her. You see what I'm saying?

01:17:15.606 --> 01:17:19.006
You'll never get her vote. It's like, well, I got to wait a month.

01:17:19.686 --> 01:17:23.426
And it's like somebody in your party can get in like the next day before the

01:17:23.426 --> 01:17:25.686
secretary of state even has the ballot. Right.

01:17:26.086 --> 01:17:29.126
I mean, those are just little things like that.

01:17:29.366 --> 01:17:34.106
That's the only commodity you have in that building is trust.

01:17:34.566 --> 01:17:40.146
That's it. If your word is not worth anything, you're not going to get anything done.

01:17:40.446 --> 01:17:44.106
It doesn't matter what party you're in, what district you come from,

01:17:44.326 --> 01:17:46.966
what part of the state you're in or part of the country.

01:17:47.246 --> 01:17:51.226
If you don't develop a cachet of trust, you cannot be effective.

01:17:51.586 --> 01:17:57.246
And that's why we're at the impasse we're in. But again, this is the interview to you.

01:17:57.406 --> 01:18:01.066
I'm not getting on myself. And just, you know, one more thing on that.

01:18:01.186 --> 01:18:05.886
I think not only just with Grijalva, but optically, the fact that the House

01:18:05.886 --> 01:18:09.526
has not been in since September 19th or hasn't had votes since September 19th,

01:18:09.606 --> 01:18:12.646
and they're going to get paid this week, you know, members will get paid,

01:18:12.826 --> 01:18:15.666
but their staffers who have been there day in, day out will not.

01:18:16.126 --> 01:18:18.966
And I'm not just speaking because I'm a former staffer, but talking about the

01:18:18.966 --> 01:18:21.446
whole federal workforce, they will miss out on a paycheck.

01:18:22.106 --> 01:18:26.446
And in Washington, D.C., where rent is very high, I remember in the 2019,

01:18:26.486 --> 01:18:30.046
we had a check-in with our staff. It was 36 days that they shut down.

01:18:30.226 --> 01:18:32.746
So right now, the one that we're currently in is the second longest because

01:18:32.746 --> 01:18:35.806
the one in 2018-2019 was the longest.

01:18:35.946 --> 01:18:38.726
And we had to check in with our staff assistants, our junior staff,

01:18:38.846 --> 01:18:42.466
and just say, hey, are you all okay to pay rent this month? Because that was a genuine concern.

01:18:42.886 --> 01:18:46.666
Not getting a paycheck for a month in D.C. is a concern about can you pay,

01:18:46.846 --> 01:18:47.566
can you afford your rent?

01:18:48.106 --> 01:18:51.286
And yet you have members who have been home since September 19th,

01:18:51.426 --> 01:18:54.846
not working in their office, not showing us that they're trying to resolve this

01:18:54.846 --> 01:18:56.526
issue, which I think is the biggest problem.

01:18:56.686 --> 01:18:59.266
John Boehner, I used, you know, obviously when he was speaker...

01:19:00.750 --> 01:19:04.770
Importance was to show up every day and have conversations. Whether or not you

01:19:04.770 --> 01:19:07.290
walk by those conversations feeling as though you made any progress or not,

01:19:07.650 --> 01:19:09.170
having the conversations matters

01:19:09.170 --> 01:19:11.610
because the American people need to know that you're willing to talk,

01:19:12.010 --> 01:19:13.710
willing to at least argue with

01:19:13.710 --> 01:19:16.430
each other, but they're not even talking because they're not even there.

01:19:16.570 --> 01:19:19.490
I do think optically this is going to come back and at some point it's going

01:19:19.490 --> 01:19:22.450
to bite Republicans in the butt for not having been president.

01:19:22.630 --> 01:19:26.670
The Senate is there, yes, but I just think it's a bad optics. Yeah.

01:19:27.490 --> 01:19:35.010
All right. Speaking about the president, who, not what, but who is the future

01:19:35.010 --> 01:19:38.090
of the Republican Party after Trump?

01:19:39.748 --> 01:19:44.668
That is a great question. And I don't have a solid answer to it because I think

01:19:44.668 --> 01:19:49.868
that it's hard to gauge because nobody can replicate what Trump has done.

01:19:50.128 --> 01:19:52.288
Nobody can replicate the loyalty

01:19:52.288 --> 01:19:57.688
he has amassed and in some ways the blind loyalty that he has amassed.

01:19:57.948 --> 01:20:03.668
So much so that even though, and I talk to folks who are loyalists and MAGA

01:20:03.668 --> 01:20:10.468
and And even when they are frustrated by something, one, you see Marge Taylor Greene do it, right?

01:20:10.548 --> 01:20:14.408
She finds a way to pivot to blame Thune and Johnson, but that the president's doing great.

01:20:14.868 --> 01:20:20.208
He's fantastic. Because they're so apprehensive to admit that maybe they were

01:20:20.208 --> 01:20:23.988
wrong about someone, especially someone that they put so much of their faith

01:20:23.988 --> 01:20:26.028
and stock into as Donald Trump.

01:20:26.028 --> 01:20:29.868
And so I don't think that we'll, as a Republican Party at least,

01:20:29.988 --> 01:20:36.188
we'll be able to replicate ever what Trump has done in terms of this unyielding loyalty.

01:20:36.888 --> 01:20:41.308
So people have mentioned, you know, J.D. Vance could be the next whatever.

01:20:41.528 --> 01:20:46.028
I don't see that personally. I just don't think that he has even remotely the

01:20:46.028 --> 01:20:52.128
same charisma and ability to carry Republican voters, but not even just Republican voters,

01:20:52.368 --> 01:20:58.308
people on the fringe or somewhere out there in the middle somewhere.

01:20:58.588 --> 01:21:00.908
I don't think he has enough of a pull to do so.

01:21:02.048 --> 01:21:06.028
So that being said, I'm sure Trump is hoping that it's one of his sons.

01:21:06.028 --> 01:21:09.528
And I am terrified of that being the case.

01:21:09.668 --> 01:21:13.048
But again, I just don't think that there is a way to say who would be the next

01:21:13.048 --> 01:21:17.768
leader of the Republican Party when you still have Trump so looming large.

01:21:18.268 --> 01:21:25.108
And, you know, he makes these jokes about 2028. And I don't know how much of a joke he thinks that is.

01:21:26.628 --> 01:21:32.708
Yeah, it's going to be hard. I mean, we had that same dynamic, you know, with Obama.

01:21:33.008 --> 01:21:36.168
I mean, and the Democrats don't like to admit that. They said,

01:21:36.268 --> 01:21:39.208
oh, we have a deep bench and all that stuff. And I said, yeah, but...

01:21:40.126 --> 01:21:43.366
It's hard to replace a once in a generation type figure.

01:21:43.826 --> 01:21:47.246
And regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum,

01:21:47.466 --> 01:21:55.866
you have to, you know, these people get into these positions because they have a certain dynamic.

01:21:56.286 --> 01:22:00.286
Right. Whether it's Trump, whether it's Obama, whether it's Reagan, whether it's Clinton.

01:22:00.726 --> 01:22:04.186
You know, now there's some guys that fill in in between that,

01:22:04.506 --> 01:22:07.246
you know, well, just so happened. These are our choices.

01:22:07.606 --> 01:22:13.186
Right. But, you know, those names, when you throw out those names, they invoke memories.

01:22:14.046 --> 01:22:18.746
And so, you know, it's just, I don't know.

01:22:19.006 --> 01:22:24.026
And my concern from a Democratic side, and this is a selfish thing,

01:22:24.506 --> 01:22:27.666
is that nobody from my generation is going to be president.

01:22:28.546 --> 01:22:31.966
I'm a Gen Xer. So Kamala Harris and I are the same age.

01:22:32.646 --> 01:22:36.626
She's the only Gen Xer I know that's run and had a serious chance to win.

01:22:36.806 --> 01:22:40.966
And so now with the trend with the Democrats, it's like, well,

01:22:40.986 --> 01:22:42.186
we got to pick somebody young.

01:22:42.546 --> 01:22:47.386
And the vice president of the United States is under the age of 45 on the Republican side.

01:22:48.086 --> 01:22:54.086
I don't see anybody from my generation even getting another shot at. We had one shot.

01:22:55.566 --> 01:22:59.166
Which is really crazy when you think about it but the baby boomers it's such

01:22:59.166 --> 01:23:04.226
a large I mean swath of the population and the fact that the last you know we've

01:23:04.226 --> 01:23:09.186
had two octogenarians running you know it just it is really crazy when you think

01:23:09.186 --> 01:23:10.486
about it I hadn't thought about the Gen X.

01:23:11.688 --> 01:23:14.808
Representation there in the presidency. That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that.

01:23:15.068 --> 01:23:17.128
I don't know who we would have on our side too, right? I mean,

01:23:17.268 --> 01:23:23.188
I think we had a couple, Nikki Haley, you know, and I know she's laying a bit

01:23:23.188 --> 01:23:26.288
low at the moment and trying to figure out her next steps, I'm sure.

01:23:26.568 --> 01:23:31.088
But it's interesting because the Trump factor has been such a,

01:23:31.648 --> 01:23:36.948
hard one for so many people in Republican politics to navigate because either

01:23:36.948 --> 01:23:40.948
they're terrified of of saying anything wrong and then getting in his wrath

01:23:40.948 --> 01:23:45.288
or isolating voters who voted for him and i i just think that's there's a way

01:23:45.288 --> 01:23:47.528
of going about it you don't have to necessarily like someone to vote for them

01:23:47.528 --> 01:23:49.548
but at the same time you don't have to vote for someone you don't like

01:23:49.988 --> 01:23:55.468
and i just i think that people get so hung up on you know what trump thinks of them versus,

01:23:56.128 --> 01:23:58.448
what are the people who voted for you think of you and what you're doing what

01:23:58.448 --> 01:24:02.828
you stand for i don't have to agree with trump i don't have to like trump but

01:24:02.828 --> 01:24:04.668
on some policies i'll say that i think it's fine.

01:24:04.828 --> 01:24:08.348
You know, are some issues that I don't necessarily think that are so bad.

01:24:08.448 --> 01:24:10.988
You know, I think we can call balls and strikes as they are.

01:24:11.508 --> 01:24:14.988
It doesn't mean that I support him as a person. It doesn't mean I like him as

01:24:14.988 --> 01:24:17.568
a person, but I can also say that there are some things that are fine that are

01:24:17.568 --> 01:24:18.888
going on or that I support.

01:24:19.848 --> 01:24:24.768
I don't know. I just think that so many politicians have struggled so incredibly to navigate it.

01:24:24.868 --> 01:24:28.568
And I don't know until he's, you know, out of the political scene,

01:24:28.568 --> 01:24:32.368
I don't know how they get past it. Yeah. All right. Last question.

01:24:32.908 --> 01:24:37.248
If you were assigned to do Black voter outreach in a 2026 campaign.

01:24:37.248 --> 01:24:39.328
How would you go about that, Tata?

01:24:40.228 --> 01:24:45.048
I'd probably study what happened in Alabama in 2017, 2018.

01:24:45.328 --> 01:24:49.128
I would look through and see broader, you know.

01:24:50.650 --> 01:24:53.710
Broader civic engagement. And I think kind of what we talked about with Mom and Donnie, right?

01:24:54.590 --> 01:24:59.230
Grassroots efforts, getting a better canvassing, talking to the nonprofit organizations

01:24:59.230 --> 01:25:04.170
and see how they canvass and how they communicate in terms of not only,

01:25:04.170 --> 01:25:08.730
you know, encouraging people to vote, getting them signed up to vote, but engaging on,

01:25:08.930 --> 01:25:12.810
like in canvassing when you campaign just for any viewers who aren't familiar,

01:25:13.030 --> 01:25:14.310
it's not just saying, hi,

01:25:14.610 --> 01:25:17.410
you know, I'm so-and-so from this group, who are you voting for in this upcoming election?

01:25:17.570 --> 01:25:19.690
It's also saying what issues matter most to you?

01:25:20.190 --> 01:25:24.830
And what are you most concerned about heading into this next election?

01:25:25.010 --> 01:25:28.610
But also, what are you worried about right now? And so you can take polls in

01:25:28.610 --> 01:25:31.610
real time, whether that's through phone calls, texts, or door-to-door knocking.

01:25:32.150 --> 01:25:35.590
Canvassing can be also a really effective tool in terms of just getting to a

01:25:35.590 --> 01:25:36.550
sense of where people are.

01:25:36.750 --> 01:25:41.550
But having those communications directly, as opposed to email blasts,

01:25:41.690 --> 01:25:46.990
ads on TV, and, you know, making sure they're popping up every other commercial.

01:25:47.250 --> 01:25:51.690
That's not necessarily always the, yes, they're helpful, but are they really

01:25:51.690 --> 01:25:53.750
getting to the heart of the issues? Probably not.

01:25:54.050 --> 01:25:57.770
So I think if I was advising a campaign, I would put more of a focus on what

01:25:57.770 --> 01:25:59.950
local organizations are doing,

01:26:00.190 --> 01:26:05.650
talking to church leaders and community leaders, maybe having different mayoral

01:26:05.650 --> 01:26:09.590
retreats or dinner or something where you're discussing it on a more local level.

01:26:09.750 --> 01:26:14.390
Hey, how can we outreach to your community? Where do you see the biggest roadblocks?

01:26:14.490 --> 01:26:17.410
Is it polling places that aren't available for early voting?

01:26:17.630 --> 01:26:21.370
I mean, I know that's an issue across the country that there are less polling

01:26:21.370 --> 01:26:24.370
places for early voting. And so people can't get there.

01:26:24.950 --> 01:26:28.990
I know in New Jersey, we have an election coming up. And so I'm traveling during

01:26:28.990 --> 01:26:31.390
the actual election. So I'm going to go do early voting.

01:26:32.170 --> 01:26:35.070
Yes, I have to travel for it. But, you know, I think about communities where

01:26:35.070 --> 01:26:38.730
it's an hour drive to get to your local, you know, that's not feasible if you're

01:26:38.730 --> 01:26:40.470
going after work or before work or on the weekend.

01:26:40.830 --> 01:26:44.550
So I think about some of those things, too, and talking to local organizers

01:26:44.550 --> 01:26:47.910
and seeing, okay, what hurdles do we have and how can we address them ahead

01:26:47.910 --> 01:26:51.890
of, I mean, just 2026, but I think of 28, you know, I think of...

01:26:52.775 --> 01:26:56.455
Trying to get ahead of some of these issues now so that you're not scrambling and

01:26:56.455 --> 01:26:59.155
then running out of time and feeling as though because I think that was also

01:26:59.155 --> 01:27:02.955
part of it too I it's hard to compare it with Kamala Winther because she has

01:27:02.955 --> 01:27:07.815
such a short window of time to even make some of those outreach but I also think

01:27:07.815 --> 01:27:11.935
like people really like t-shirts and signs and so I would put a lot of money

01:27:11.935 --> 01:27:16.875
into doing a ton of t-shirts and a ton of signs and really making like people

01:27:16.875 --> 01:27:18.555
feel included in part of a campaign.

01:27:18.975 --> 01:27:22.955
I think that that's something, too, as is human nature. We want to be included.

01:27:23.155 --> 01:27:24.435
We want to feel part of something.

01:27:24.795 --> 01:27:27.535
And it seems small. It seems maybe a little silly, but it's not.

01:27:27.715 --> 01:27:31.075
It's an easy lift. And for how much money people put into campaigns.

01:27:32.155 --> 01:27:35.815
Make some extra shirts and some signs. It shouldn't be that hard, people.

01:27:36.035 --> 01:27:39.115
Like, it really shouldn't be that hard. But I do. I think that people want to

01:27:39.115 --> 01:27:42.635
feel heard, but they also would be included. So those are the things I would focus on.

01:27:43.535 --> 01:27:48.175
1983, when Harold Washington ran to become the first Black mayor of Chicago,

01:27:48.535 --> 01:27:53.575
the Harold Washington for Chicago campaign button was a fashion accessory.

01:27:53.855 --> 01:27:58.395
You had to have one. If you didn't have one, it's like, didn't matter.

01:27:58.655 --> 01:28:01.895
And you know, that generation, we had buttons everywhere.

01:28:02.075 --> 01:28:05.675
We had the blue jackets with buttons. But if you didn't have a Harold Washington

01:28:05.675 --> 01:28:10.295
for Chicago button, that blue and white button with the city skyline, you didn't have that.

01:28:10.515 --> 01:28:13.955
Oh yeah. What are you doing? How come you ain't got a Washington button?

01:28:13.955 --> 01:28:20.475
You know you know and that was like the first person i ever voted for so i mean that was i mean,

01:28:21.255 --> 01:28:25.535
that connection that just that little simple button that was the connection

01:28:25.535 --> 01:28:30.555
so you you're on to something look i gotta let you go how can people reach out

01:28:30.555 --> 01:28:36.695
to you how can people follow you just just give give give the audience a way

01:28:36.695 --> 01:28:38.855
that they can connect with you,

01:28:39.695 --> 01:28:43.735
Sure. So I post a lot of things on Instagram. And I still have the same account

01:28:43.735 --> 01:28:47.215
that I had when I first got my account in college. So I haven't changed my name,

01:28:47.335 --> 01:28:48.935
which is probably something I should have done.

01:28:49.055 --> 01:28:52.975
But it's at M-M-G-I-L-L on Instagram

01:28:52.975 --> 01:28:56.595
and then Maura underscore Gillespie on Twitter. So follow me there.

01:28:56.995 --> 01:29:03.435
And yeah, I think that I do a fair amount on TV, but I usually post it on my stories on Instagram.

01:29:04.415 --> 01:29:08.275
And Blue Tech Strategies is the business that I consult. And And so if you're

01:29:08.275 --> 01:29:10.715
looking for media or PR, feel free to reach out.

01:29:10.835 --> 01:29:13.435
I'd love to work with you all. And thank you for having me on, Erik.

01:29:13.535 --> 01:29:16.715
This is a really fruitful conversation. And again, I think what you're doing

01:29:16.715 --> 01:29:21.295
just shows that the importance of having conversation and we don't necessarily

01:29:21.295 --> 01:29:23.655
always have to agree on everything, but just being able to talk through some

01:29:23.655 --> 01:29:26.995
of these issues and on a broader scale, I think is really helpful.

01:29:27.175 --> 01:29:30.275
So thank you for inviting me on and for what you're doing. Well,

01:29:30.395 --> 01:29:31.415
thank you for accepting.

01:29:33.035 --> 01:29:39.055
I've been pursuing you for a minute and I'm finally glad that my due diligence

01:29:39.055 --> 01:29:41.115
paid off because this was worth it.

01:29:41.615 --> 01:29:46.415
And the rule is, is that now that you've been on and you accept the invitation

01:29:46.415 --> 01:29:49.495
and all that, that you have an open invitation to come back.

01:29:49.595 --> 01:29:51.215
You don't even have to wait for me to ask you.

01:29:51.355 --> 01:29:53.595
Just if you say, Erik, I need to talk.

01:29:54.135 --> 01:29:57.995
We can make that happen. So Maura, let's be. I love it. Thank you so much.

01:29:58.775 --> 01:30:01.735
Thank you. All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side. .

01:30:21.042 --> 01:30:26.722
Right. And we are back. And so now it's time for an old friend of the podcast to come on.

01:30:26.922 --> 01:30:31.822
He has written a new book called The Trial of Donald H. Rumsfeld.

01:30:32.122 --> 01:30:34.382
And it's a very compelling book.

01:30:35.242 --> 01:30:41.002
And I encourage y'all to get it. And the author's name is Will Cooper.

01:30:41.602 --> 01:30:44.942
Will Cooper is an attorney who's done work for major companies,

01:30:44.962 --> 01:30:46.702
including Google and Samsung.

01:30:47.362 --> 01:30:51.082
He's also an award-winning journalist whose articles have appeared in hundreds

01:30:51.082 --> 01:30:54.722
of publications around the world, including the New York Times,

01:30:54.942 --> 01:30:58.662
San Francisco Chronicle, Chicago Sun-Times, and Jerusalem Post.

01:30:59.182 --> 01:31:04.062
Publishers Weekly called his writings about Donald Trump a compelling rallying

01:31:04.062 --> 01:31:07.442
cry for democratic institutions under threat in America.

01:31:07.522 --> 01:31:12.502
And he is a frequent guest on national television and radio programs and on

01:31:12.502 --> 01:31:16.802
numerous podcasts. and he lives in sunny California.

01:31:17.182 --> 01:31:23.142
Ladies and gentlemen, it is always an honor and a privilege to have as a guest

01:31:23.142 --> 01:31:27.462
on this podcast, Will Cooper. Music.

01:31:38.551 --> 01:31:43.351
My good friend, Will Cooper. How you doing? Doing great, Erik. Happy to be here.

01:31:43.591 --> 01:31:47.871
Well, I'm happy to have you on. I understand that you sent me this book,

01:31:48.811 --> 01:31:51.711
The Trial of Donald H. Rumsfeld.

01:31:52.291 --> 01:31:58.371
So I see that you wrote this, and I want to get into that while I have you.

01:31:59.011 --> 01:32:04.411
But I do want to do my icebreaker things. And one of those quotes,

01:32:04.411 --> 01:32:08.691
The quote I'm going to use is from Mr. Rumsfeld himself.

01:32:08.951 --> 01:32:14.311
He said, those who make the decisions with imperfect knowledge will be judged

01:32:14.311 --> 01:32:20.931
in hindsight by those with considerably more information at their disposal and time for reflection.

01:32:21.411 --> 01:32:23.291
What does that quote mean to you?

01:32:24.931 --> 01:32:31.451
Like lots of things Rumsfeld said, I think it's very insightful and accurate.

01:32:31.451 --> 01:32:37.851
I think Rumsfeld was really complicated and a mix of positives and negatives, which we can get into.

01:32:38.131 --> 01:32:42.751
But he was often, not always, but often insightful and accurate.

01:32:42.931 --> 01:32:48.991
And I think that quote, which a lot of other people have said the same thing, is exactly right.

01:32:49.351 --> 01:32:55.371
That's exactly right. The things that people are in positions of authority in big,

01:32:55.451 --> 01:33:03.671
complicated areas are dealing with are much harder in real time than the folks

01:33:03.671 --> 01:33:08.591
in the peanut gallery who criticize them after the fact are dealing with.

01:33:08.751 --> 01:33:16.131
I often want in the peanut gallery being unfair myself, but I think that quote is exactly right.

01:33:16.131 --> 01:33:19.291
Well, I've, I've, I've been in the arena and in the gallery,

01:33:19.291 --> 01:33:23.771
so, you know, it's, it's just part of the existence that we go through.

01:33:24.940 --> 01:33:30.180
Yes, you're very well suited for that because unlike me, I've only been in the

01:33:30.180 --> 01:33:31.980
gallery when it comes to politics.

01:33:32.540 --> 01:33:34.680
You're actually, you know, both sides.

01:33:35.720 --> 01:33:39.760
I'm curious, if you don't mind, what do you think? Because you've got the right

01:33:39.760 --> 01:33:41.120
perspective to answer that.

01:33:41.340 --> 01:33:44.260
Do you agree or what do you think? Well, yeah, I agree with that.

01:33:44.260 --> 01:33:47.280
You know, when you're sitting there trying to make a decision,

01:33:47.280 --> 01:33:53.600
the one thing that most people don't realize is that the toughest critic of

01:33:53.600 --> 01:33:57.600
anybody will be, you know, in my case, it'd be myself.

01:33:57.960 --> 01:34:02.880
You know, when you look back and some of the votes I've taken on certain things,

01:34:03.040 --> 01:34:06.040
I'm like, yeah, I probably should have went another way with that.

01:34:06.040 --> 01:34:10.940
But fortunately for me, it wasn't that many, but I know there was at least a

01:34:10.940 --> 01:34:15.480
couple that I could really think back and say, yeah, I should have either,

01:34:15.680 --> 01:34:20.100
either I should have stuck to my guns or I should have not voted that way.

01:34:20.740 --> 01:34:25.720
And, you know, so I remember it was, I think, after my first year,

01:34:25.720 --> 01:34:31.240
I got a letter from a lobbyist and the lobbyist was saying that I had voted

01:34:31.240 --> 01:34:34.520
against a particular bill they were pushing for. And I was like, no.

01:34:35.080 --> 01:34:42.600
And I had a I had a habit of marking down yes or no on the calendar that the day I voted on it.

01:34:42.600 --> 01:34:46.780
So I went back and found the calendar for that day and I said,

01:34:47.220 --> 01:34:50.380
oh, I guess I did vote against this. Oh, well, I'm sorry.

01:34:50.680 --> 01:34:55.640
You know, but, uh, but I understood the reason why I voted against it at the time.

01:34:55.680 --> 01:34:59.600
But, you know, it was, it just one of those things where, like you said,

01:34:59.700 --> 01:35:01.880
you're always going to be observed and all that stuff.

01:35:02.900 --> 01:35:09.440
So the other thing is 20 questions now you've been on before so there's two

01:35:09.440 --> 01:35:14.120
numbers you can't pick and that's 11 and 17 so i need you to give me a number

01:35:14.120 --> 01:35:17.600
other than those two between one and 20.

01:35:18.840 --> 01:35:24.600
19 what are some values you think most people share even if they express them differently,

01:35:26.057 --> 01:35:31.597
I think I love the question, and I love talking about what people share this

01:35:31.597 --> 01:35:34.657
day and age because there's so much focus on what people don't share.

01:35:35.037 --> 01:35:42.337
I think loyalty to those close to you is something that most people share.

01:35:44.117 --> 01:35:48.177
And no matter where you are on the political continuum or differences,

01:35:48.457 --> 01:35:56.197
I think being kind to those in your daily life, even if people don't live up to it all the time,

01:35:56.497 --> 01:35:59.597
is another example of something that people share.

01:35:59.757 --> 01:36:05.737
And it's a value and an aspiration that I think most people do share.

01:36:06.697 --> 01:36:12.377
Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. So I'm going to read something from the book. Thank you.

01:36:13.310 --> 01:36:18.510
So the listening audience can kind of get an idea of this book.

01:36:19.490 --> 01:36:23.930
When Rummy's head hit the pillow that night, he thought about the same thing

01:36:23.930 --> 01:36:25.650
he now thought about every night.

01:36:26.030 --> 01:36:30.410
September the 11th. The same pain he felt in his stomach when the Pentagon started

01:36:30.410 --> 01:36:32.130
shaking would come back every night.

01:36:32.490 --> 01:36:36.590
He saw images of the people being carried on stretchers to ambulances.

01:36:36.890 --> 01:36:43.050
Their screams echoed in his head. He smelled the dense smoke oozing from the smoldering wreckage.

01:36:43.310 --> 01:36:45.970
He felt his throat clench as he tried to breathe.

01:36:46.310 --> 01:36:53.070
In retrospect, everyone now knew the scope of the attacks of that day.

01:36:53.310 --> 01:36:57.430
But at the time the planes were hitting the buildings, no one knew how vast

01:36:57.430 --> 01:36:58.450
the destruction would be.

01:36:58.790 --> 01:37:02.410
No one knew what would happen next. It was horrifying.

01:37:02.730 --> 01:37:08.370
The next time could be so much worse, he worried. The potential for destruction was so vast.

01:37:08.930 --> 01:37:13.730
Americans' way of life depended on 300 million people waking up every day and

01:37:13.730 --> 01:37:17.590
having the freedom and confidence to participate fully in society.

01:37:17.950 --> 01:37:23.090
This is what allowed schools to open, markets to function, businesses to create

01:37:23.090 --> 01:37:27.090
products, services, and jobs, artists and athletes to entertain,

01:37:27.630 --> 01:37:31.470
researchers to discover new truths, the public square to flourish.

01:37:31.950 --> 01:37:37.330
People needed to get out of bed each day without fear and order for America to work.

01:37:37.330 --> 01:37:41.050
The violent dysfunction of the Middle East jeopardized all that,

01:37:41.310 --> 01:37:46.050
and the asymmetric threats, where just a few people could do so much damage,

01:37:46.290 --> 01:37:47.810
made the challenge immense.

01:37:48.030 --> 01:37:52.570
It was his job as Secretary of Defense to defend his country.

01:37:52.990 --> 01:37:57.530
Never again, he said softly, already asleep, Joyce moved just a little,

01:37:57.830 --> 01:38:00.710
not on my watch, never again.

01:38:01.230 --> 01:38:06.670
What made you come up with the concept for this book? Why did you decide to?

01:38:07.570 --> 01:38:12.010
Because it's very interesting. And I'm really just curious what was in your

01:38:12.010 --> 01:38:14.790
mindset to say, yeah, I'm going to write this book.

01:38:16.270 --> 01:38:20.890
I think every single person that's seen the book or heard about that has thought that.

01:38:21.090 --> 01:38:24.770
Why would you write that book? This guy? Who is he?

01:38:25.390 --> 01:38:30.190
Why that book? There's two reasons that I think are the main ones.

01:38:30.190 --> 01:38:36.530
The first is that when I, September 11th happened, I was a young adult and that

01:38:36.530 --> 01:38:38.390
was very transformative for me.

01:38:38.770 --> 01:38:44.810
And it's what I went from being pretty ignorant and uninterested in politics

01:38:44.810 --> 01:38:48.110
to, to immediately very interested.

01:38:48.570 --> 01:38:52.410
Just wondering how, how could something like this happen? What's behind this?

01:38:52.670 --> 01:38:58.210
You know, what's, what's going on here? So it was a very formative period for

01:38:58.210 --> 01:39:02.250
me in terms of my mental model and how it was, you know,

01:39:02.590 --> 01:39:07.870
initially started to be formed and when it came to issues of politics and foreign relations.

01:39:08.370 --> 01:39:13.630
And Rumsfeld was front and center. He was the secretary of defense focused on this.

01:39:14.050 --> 01:39:19.670
And I used to watch his press conferences on C-SPAN, which were at the time

01:39:19.670 --> 01:39:23.510
very widely watched and talked about.

01:39:23.510 --> 01:39:29.410
And I just found him extremely interesting, extremely fascinating as a person,

01:39:30.130 --> 01:39:34.610
really, really smart, really energetic, not afraid to speak his mind.

01:39:34.890 --> 01:39:38.790
But then he also made, you know, over time, I realized he made some very big

01:39:38.790 --> 01:39:41.170
mistakes. You know, his signature...

01:39:42.667 --> 01:39:47.547
Action in government was the Iraq war, which, which was a disaster.

01:39:47.727 --> 01:39:53.887
And so I always wondered how, how could somebody so smart make such a terrible decision?

01:39:54.467 --> 01:40:00.967
So, so the first part of your question, Erik, is just, I found him really fascinating in that context.

01:40:01.267 --> 01:40:04.067
Wasn't just affection, wasn't just hostility.

01:40:04.407 --> 01:40:10.467
It was, I just found him fascinating. And then the second part was I really

01:40:10.467 --> 01:40:17.647
wanted to write a book that made the point that people in positions of vast

01:40:17.647 --> 01:40:21.547
authority are human, just like everyone else.

01:40:21.847 --> 01:40:29.147
I think it's a very widespread mistake to think of politicians as something

01:40:29.147 --> 01:40:30.627
other than a normal person.

01:40:32.307 --> 01:40:37.627
When somebody who really hates Dick Cheney thinks about it, they think of him as some dark monster.

01:40:37.967 --> 01:40:42.247
When somebody who really hates Barack Obama, they think of him as some radical monster,

01:40:42.972 --> 01:40:46.112
And the way they think about politicians and talk about politicians,

01:40:46.432 --> 01:40:48.692
it's like they're cartoons and not people.

01:40:49.192 --> 01:40:53.912
But they're all people just like us. And you know this because you were an elected official.

01:40:54.672 --> 01:41:00.672
Even the biggest, most famous, notorious people in the public square are humans.

01:41:01.312 --> 01:41:05.952
And I wanted to write a book that showed that this person who was so controversial,

01:41:06.212 --> 01:41:12.572
such a lightning rod, was a human being. and had a human dimension to him that

01:41:12.572 --> 01:41:15.872
I think a lot of people didn't appreciate. Yeah.

01:41:16.652 --> 01:41:26.372
So why did you go through a fictional act as opposed to just doing a straight biography on them?

01:41:26.792 --> 01:41:33.152
When you're writing nonfiction, everything you say has to be right.

01:41:34.252 --> 01:41:39.592
The goal for me is everything I say needs to be right, It needs to be what I believe.

01:41:39.932 --> 01:41:44.792
I want to just be completely open and put my views out there and see what happens to them.

01:41:45.232 --> 01:41:54.172
You want to support everything you say with facts and substance and citations and all of that.

01:41:54.432 --> 01:41:58.992
I love that process, but it can be challenging.

01:41:59.532 --> 01:42:07.472
It's a heavy lift sometimes. In fiction, you get to just pick up the pen and go.

01:42:08.112 --> 01:42:12.612
Wherever your creative juices take you, that's where you go.

01:42:13.432 --> 01:42:19.132
And so that process at times for me can be easier and more fun.

01:42:19.372 --> 01:42:22.572
Not always. So I was just kind of in the mood for that.

01:42:22.732 --> 01:42:29.612
And so I thought that blending the two would be a fun way to write a book and

01:42:29.612 --> 01:42:35.152
also be a way to make points that to me are important,

01:42:36.383 --> 01:42:40.563
not having to have, you know, huge footnotes to support everything I said. Yeah.

01:42:41.543 --> 01:42:46.623
Who is more fascinating of the two people that you have written about,

01:42:46.783 --> 01:42:48.723
Donald Rumsfeld or Donald Trump?

01:42:51.103 --> 01:42:56.883
Wow. Well, on the question, there's a lot of other adjectives we could use to describe both of them.

01:42:57.103 --> 01:43:00.523
On the question of fascinating, I would

01:43:00.523 --> 01:43:09.503
say Trump's overall impact on the country and the world and all of the things

01:43:09.503 --> 01:43:15.823
that he's done and all of the ripples in the pond from his two presidencies

01:43:15.823 --> 01:43:19.863
is from a position of just fascination,

01:43:19.863 --> 01:43:23.443
probably as fascinating as anything I can think of in politics.

01:43:24.003 --> 01:43:29.363
It just would never stop with fascination there.

01:43:29.843 --> 01:43:33.643
But Trump's a much simpler man than Rumsfeld.

01:43:34.123 --> 01:43:39.703
Rumsfeld was a lot smarter than Trump. He was a lot more nuanced than Trump.

01:43:40.123 --> 01:43:43.743
And so I'm going to say Rumsfeld, the man, was more fascinating.

01:43:44.023 --> 01:43:49.183
Trump, the politician, and his time in office has been more fascinating.

01:43:49.183 --> 01:43:54.203
Well, let's dive into that a little more because you characterize Rumsfeld in

01:43:54.203 --> 01:43:58.783
the book as a confident through the narrator of the book.

01:43:58.943 --> 01:44:05.243
You said you characterize him as a confident but open-minded thinker,

01:44:05.563 --> 01:44:08.063
unburdened by hubris or ideology.

01:44:08.303 --> 01:44:15.163
Yeah, just kind of dive into that a little more. So that description in the

01:44:15.163 --> 01:44:21.483
book is Rumsfeld's self-image of being a confident, open-minded thinker.

01:44:21.783 --> 01:44:26.703
And one of the main themes of the book is.

01:44:27.570 --> 01:44:33.250
That I believe is very true, is people who are very bright, very smart,

01:44:33.450 --> 01:44:37.750
very capable people in the world, right, with their jobs, interacting with other

01:44:37.750 --> 01:44:39.830
people, accomplishing big things.

01:44:41.170 --> 01:44:46.150
When the lens is shifted to themselves and they're thinking about themselves.

01:44:46.810 --> 01:44:50.310
All of a sudden their judgment collapses.

01:44:50.810 --> 01:44:56.610
The powerful force of ego and concerns about legacy and how they're viewed and

01:44:56.610 --> 01:45:00.730
wanting to be the hero who finally did what no one else could do,

01:45:01.030 --> 01:45:03.050
it can cripple your judgment.

01:45:03.310 --> 01:45:08.990
So you can do great things in life. And then when questions that you're intertwined

01:45:08.990 --> 01:45:12.230
with, you can be radically overconfident.

01:45:12.410 --> 01:45:15.150
You can have a self-assessment that's really inaccurate.

01:45:15.350 --> 01:45:20.210
I think Elon Musk is a really good example of that in recent history where he's

01:45:20.210 --> 01:45:23.890
a brilliant business person. And when he's focused on building a company like

01:45:23.890 --> 01:45:28.550
Tesla or SpaceX, he's obviously very smart, very capable.

01:45:29.030 --> 01:45:34.110
When he jumped into politics and was trying to be this hero saving the world

01:45:34.110 --> 01:45:39.750
from America's overspending and fraud and waste, his IQ dropped in half.

01:45:40.070 --> 01:45:46.670
I mean, he was constantly saying things that to people like you and I were essentially

01:45:46.670 --> 01:45:50.550
illiterate about our system of government because it's not his domain.

01:45:50.550 --> 01:45:57.350
So he was wildly overconfident and made lots of mistakes thinking he knew more than he did.

01:45:57.830 --> 01:46:03.390
And then the book, Rumsfeld, the same thing. He has this incredibly accomplished life.

01:46:03.750 --> 01:46:07.930
But then when he tries to be the hero who saves the Middle East and finally

01:46:07.930 --> 01:46:10.750
solves that problem, he makes big blunders.

01:46:12.350 --> 01:46:17.170
How much did Rumsfeld's rules shape how you wrote the book?

01:46:18.172 --> 01:46:24.192
Well, Rumsfeld's rules is a collection of axioms. It's a mix of Rumsfeld's own

01:46:24.192 --> 01:46:26.232
statements and quotes from others.

01:46:26.592 --> 01:46:31.252
There's a lot of really smart and intelligent insights in there.

01:46:31.392 --> 01:46:35.792
A lot of them are, you know, he's quoting Ben Franklin and Mark Twain and George

01:46:35.792 --> 01:46:40.012
Washington and people, you know, really smart people, many others too.

01:46:40.272 --> 01:46:42.972
And then he mixes his own thoughts in there.

01:46:43.492 --> 01:46:48.292
It's a really fascinating window into who rumsfeld was and what he thought so in that,

01:46:48.912 --> 01:46:53.912
sense it was very helpful i include rumsfeld's rules throughout the book the

01:46:53.912 --> 01:46:58.372
actual rules themselves one of the things i wanted to do with the book was actually

01:46:58.372 --> 01:47:04.692
capture rumsfeld so there's a lot of a lot of facts and and not only about him

01:47:04.692 --> 01:47:08.732
but historical facts that are that are accurate and that actually took place.

01:47:08.932 --> 01:47:14.872
And so it didn't shape the narrative of the novel, but it informed my understanding

01:47:14.872 --> 01:47:17.952
of Rumsfeld in a pretty significant way.

01:47:18.372 --> 01:47:21.792
Yeah, so let me see how I can answer.

01:47:22.032 --> 01:47:28.492
So kind of tell the listeners the plot of the book without giving too much away.

01:47:28.792 --> 01:47:34.232
And then what do you want readers to take away from the book?

01:47:34.292 --> 01:47:38.992
You kind of answered it earlier, But I dive into a little more.

01:47:39.112 --> 01:47:43.152
So talk about the plot. And then what, as somebody that reads this book,

01:47:43.292 --> 01:47:46.372
what do you want them to get from it?

01:47:48.123 --> 01:47:54.523
First part of the book charts Rumsfeld's rise as a politician.

01:47:54.743 --> 01:47:59.783
He started in Congress in his 20s and became the youngest and oldest Secretary of Defense.

01:48:00.043 --> 01:48:03.443
And in the private sector, he was a very successful CEO.

01:48:03.703 --> 01:48:10.643
So the first third or so of the book introduces us to Rumsfeld and his background.

01:48:10.923 --> 01:48:15.083
Then the middle part of the book is the Bush administration,

01:48:15.623 --> 01:48:17.583
September 11th, the Iraq war.

01:48:17.763 --> 01:48:23.123
And then a big, huge counter-history emerges where Rumsfeld becomes president.

01:48:24.003 --> 01:48:28.223
Starts a war with Iran, and there's lots of drama around that.

01:48:28.323 --> 01:48:30.423
And that gets resolved.

01:48:30.983 --> 01:48:34.663
There's a constitutional crisis and the Supreme Court's involved.

01:48:34.923 --> 01:48:39.043
And so there's a lot of parallels to some of the things we're seeing today.

01:48:39.603 --> 01:48:45.703
And then the last third of the book is really the trial, which borrows from

01:48:45.703 --> 01:48:47.263
the first part of the book.

01:48:47.423 --> 01:48:52.723
So the trial itself, the underlying facts of the trial relate to the Iraq war.

01:48:53.323 --> 01:48:58.323
And so that last third is the trial, the courtroom scenes and the resolution

01:48:58.323 --> 01:49:03.623
of both the trial, what happens to Rumsfeld and the accusations.

01:49:03.883 --> 01:49:08.783
And then also everything in the book is told through a narrator who was somebody

01:49:08.783 --> 01:49:12.883
who knew and knew Rumsfeld well and was a part of these historical events.

01:49:13.103 --> 01:49:18.043
And so that's revealed and resolved as well. So that's the overall flow of the book.

01:49:19.118 --> 01:49:22.478
Think from what would I want readers to get out of the book,

01:49:22.758 --> 01:49:26.798
I mean, there are a couple big themes, but one of them was, like I mentioned,

01:49:26.918 --> 01:49:28.618
that these politicians are humans.

01:49:28.918 --> 01:49:32.238
And I believe, and you and I have talked about this before, Erik,

01:49:32.838 --> 01:49:38.958
that as members of society and citizens and participants in the public square,

01:49:38.958 --> 01:49:42.378
I think it's really good to try to have accurate views.

01:49:42.838 --> 01:49:48.518
Like you can vote one way every single time and you can want policies to change in a certain direction.

01:49:48.818 --> 01:49:52.958
That's great. But your actual inputs into your thinking should be accurate.

01:49:53.138 --> 01:49:59.478
And if you think Donald Trump is 5'6", when he's really 6'3", that's not helping you.

01:50:01.498 --> 01:50:06.158
You're distorting things. And so one of the ways to be accurate about politics

01:50:06.158 --> 01:50:10.218
is just to remember how human it is, how human. Donald Trump is a human.

01:50:10.918 --> 01:50:16.158
Donald Rumsfeld was a human. Barack Obama. These are human people with all sorts

01:50:16.158 --> 01:50:20.978
of fallibilities strengths and weaknesses just like everyone else they just

01:50:20.978 --> 01:50:25.638
happen to have immense power so that was the main point and then i also think

01:50:25.638 --> 01:50:28.878
the the probably the second main point was.

01:50:30.056 --> 01:50:34.596
We should all be, and we see this every day in very obvious ways right now,

01:50:34.876 --> 01:50:38.236
but we should all be on notice of

01:50:38.236 --> 01:50:41.376
how the ego of these people

01:50:41.376 --> 01:50:49.416
with power can distort their thinking and cause the policies to be deeply flawed

01:50:49.416 --> 01:50:52.236
because they're rooted in one's

01:50:52.236 --> 01:50:58.556
own self-image and ego and desire to be a hero as opposed to rational.

01:50:58.556 --> 01:51:04.916
I think the best leaders we have separate themselves from the questions of how

01:51:04.916 --> 01:51:07.936
to solve problems, but that's rare.

01:51:08.156 --> 01:51:13.596
The norm is to make it all about yourself, and that's why you see things can

01:51:13.596 --> 01:51:17.176
go really, really wrong, like we saw with the Iraq War. Yeah.

01:51:17.676 --> 01:51:23.896
So this is really a good book, and you're getting me into the habit of reading

01:51:23.896 --> 01:51:28.536
fiction. I think we had had this conversation before that I wasn't a big fiction

01:51:28.536 --> 01:51:31.096
reader outside of the sci-fi genre.

01:51:32.516 --> 01:51:37.096
But, you know, you're getting me in a good habit of reading good fiction,

01:51:37.516 --> 01:51:39.496
especially if you write it.

01:51:39.696 --> 01:51:45.376
So I'm really, really proud of the book. I was a little stunned that I got acknowledged

01:51:45.376 --> 01:51:48.876
in the book because I don't know what I did to inspire that.

01:51:49.296 --> 01:51:54.816
But I encourage everybody to go get it. And we'll talk about that at the end.

01:51:54.996 --> 01:51:58.976
But every time I get you on, I want to kind of pick your brain a little bit

01:51:58.976 --> 01:51:59.856
about what's happening.

01:52:00.136 --> 01:52:05.836
So just on a couple of things, what are your thoughts about the No Kings protests

01:52:05.836 --> 01:52:08.096
that have happened this year?

01:52:08.256 --> 01:52:13.216
We saw 5 million folks show up earlier this year.

01:52:13.356 --> 01:52:18.016
And then just this past weekend, we saw like 7 million people show up.

01:52:18.116 --> 01:52:20.116
So what are your thoughts on that?

01:52:21.224 --> 01:52:24.424
Yeah. Real quick, I'll note the acknowledgement. I've said this before.

01:52:24.544 --> 01:52:28.944
I think you have the best podcast in the world and I love coming on and being

01:52:28.944 --> 01:52:34.224
able to talk these things through with you, given the depth of your background

01:52:34.224 --> 01:52:39.104
and your insights and that you're unlike so many other people today,

01:52:39.284 --> 01:52:43.724
you're just trying to get to the root of these problems in a good way.

01:52:44.224 --> 01:52:50.104
So it really it really is a part of my creative process, knowing that we're

01:52:50.104 --> 01:52:53.904
going to be talking about these issues, something that I really value.

01:52:54.164 --> 01:52:58.704
So thank you for having me on. And that was what was behind that.

01:52:59.044 --> 01:53:04.104
In terms of the no kings, I think two things.

01:53:04.404 --> 01:53:07.744
Number one, Trump's not a king. He's not even close to the king.

01:53:07.944 --> 01:53:12.464
I think there's a lot of truth to a lot of the criticism of Trump.

01:53:12.464 --> 01:53:17.764
The notion that he's a dictator, I think, is a blunder.

01:53:19.084 --> 01:53:22.764
We can get into the detail, but I don't think it's true at all.

01:53:24.104 --> 01:53:32.564
So that's point one. Point two, the depth of the size of the crowd,

01:53:32.824 --> 01:53:35.504
the momentum of the protests,

01:53:36.004 --> 01:53:43.104
the emotion behind them is yet another example of how highly charged our polity

01:53:43.104 --> 01:53:53.384
is and how emotion in so many ways on all sides tends to be dominating reason.

01:53:53.384 --> 01:53:58.504
And I think that that's an unfortunate, it's always there to some extent.

01:53:58.504 --> 01:54:02.904
It's a very elevated part of our politics today. And I think that's a real problem.

01:54:03.484 --> 01:54:08.224
Yeah. I think when you talk about that, he's not a king or a dictator.

01:54:08.684 --> 01:54:14.564
I think what we're seeing now is probably the most preemptive thing I've ever

01:54:14.564 --> 01:54:16.144
seen in American politics.

01:54:16.704 --> 01:54:20.264
I think I agree with you. He has not attained power.

01:54:21.180 --> 01:54:24.600
Dictator status, or else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

01:54:25.820 --> 01:54:29.760
It wouldn't be in a printer, right? But at the same time,

01:54:30.060 --> 01:54:36.520
you know, but because there are enough people that have paid attention to history

01:54:36.520 --> 01:54:43.180
and paid attention to politics and have been able to convince people and show people,

01:54:43.420 --> 01:54:48.860
hey, this is the trend that we're going, I think people have decided,

01:54:48.860 --> 01:54:50.560
Well, no, we don't want that.

01:54:50.740 --> 01:54:53.380
And I think that that is what has happened.

01:54:53.580 --> 01:54:59.280
Now, the biggest arguments have been, well, it's just a rally and it's not a

01:54:59.280 --> 01:55:00.960
sustained protest and all that.

01:55:01.080 --> 01:55:06.980
So I think that's the thing we need to watch is what comes of these massive

01:55:06.980 --> 01:55:12.660
demonstrations, right? But what kind of sustained protest, what kind of sustained

01:55:12.660 --> 01:55:15.760
opposition emerges from that?

01:55:15.960 --> 01:55:22.120
And can we actually stop him from actually becoming a true authoritative dictator?

01:55:22.660 --> 01:55:26.700
So, you know, I think that's where we are with that.

01:55:27.140 --> 01:55:30.800
I think it's a great. Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to. No, go ahead. Go ahead.

01:55:31.200 --> 01:55:35.200
I think it's a great point. And I love the use of the preemptive,

01:55:35.340 --> 01:55:36.480
biggest preemptive movement.

01:55:36.680 --> 01:55:40.080
I completely agree. That's a great way to think about that.

01:55:40.360 --> 01:55:42.400
I hadn't thought about that. See, that's what I'm talking about.

01:55:42.520 --> 01:55:46.660
I hadn't thought about that before. That's perfect because that's what it is.

01:55:47.340 --> 01:55:53.140
One of the reasons why he's never going to be anywhere near a dictator is because

01:55:53.140 --> 01:56:00.640
of half the country is so against him and the leadership of that opposition.

01:56:00.640 --> 01:56:08.380
They're just fiery, preemptive, good, rock-solid opponents.

01:56:08.860 --> 01:56:11.300
And they're just not...

01:56:13.168 --> 01:56:20.808
Going to go down easy or at all and so i think that's one reason why it's not going to happen,

01:56:21.568 --> 01:56:25.148
i would also add i i don't

01:56:25.148 --> 01:56:29.388
think he's anywhere near so if you think about the literal meaning of a dictatorship

01:56:29.388 --> 01:56:34.388
right it's to dictate government that's just to distill it down to the essence

01:56:34.388 --> 01:56:40.988
of what it is if you think about government in america today most of it of the

01:56:40.988 --> 01:56:45.128
government that impacts Most of the government that gets our attention is the White House.

01:56:45.508 --> 01:56:49.848
Most of the government that impacts our daily lives, as you know, Eric, state and local.

01:56:50.308 --> 01:56:56.188
That's where the legal system, you know, for every one Jim Comey federal case

01:56:56.188 --> 01:56:57.768
that gets all the headlines,

01:56:58.028 --> 01:57:05.608
there's a million state law cases with the local law enforcement and our schools are run locally.

01:57:05.608 --> 01:57:10.808
They are, it's all, Trump has nothing to do with the over 90,

01:57:11.148 --> 01:57:13.788
overwhelming majority of that.

01:57:14.308 --> 01:57:19.508
Even at the federal level, the judiciary is exerting its independence every day.

01:57:19.868 --> 01:57:24.588
If the Democrats are very close to winning the house, if they do, they're not.

01:57:25.555 --> 01:57:29.855
Ability to do anything there is going to plummet to virtually nothing.

01:57:30.635 --> 01:57:36.135
So I think we've got a megalomaniac in the White House with lots of things to

01:57:36.135 --> 01:57:40.115
worry about. But the idea that he's going to take over all of these instruments

01:57:40.115 --> 01:57:44.735
of government, it's good that we're being preemptive. It's part of why it'll never happen.

01:57:45.295 --> 01:57:48.935
But we're not on the five yard line trying to get him, keep him out of the end

01:57:48.935 --> 01:57:53.175
zone. We're on the other half of the field playing really good defense.

01:57:54.155 --> 01:57:58.635
That's a great analogy. We'll leave it at that. Last question real quick.

01:57:58.775 --> 01:58:02.135
Who do you think is winning the shutdown right now? Ooh.

01:58:03.255 --> 01:58:10.895
A Martian looking down on America from outer space would immediately say, wait,

01:58:11.755 --> 01:58:21.055
Republicans have the presidency, the Congress, both houses, and people are debating who's causing this?

01:58:21.055 --> 01:58:28.835
That doesn't even make sense you know when you actually control all three elements

01:58:28.835 --> 01:58:33.535
that are required to open and you have the majorities and you've been doing

01:58:33.535 --> 01:58:38.795
things with that majority for months on end i don't think this should be a debate

01:58:38.795 --> 01:58:40.815
and in some ways it's a it's a,

01:58:41.535 --> 01:58:47.755
signal of how dysfunctional our politics are that this is a debate it's it's

01:58:47.755 --> 01:58:53.415
kind of this is one of the easiest questions I think that have been posed in politics recently.

01:58:53.815 --> 01:58:59.115
If you, if you have majorities in all three, you own it, period.

01:58:59.995 --> 01:59:04.975
So another guest is going to be on this particular episode. She stated that

01:59:04.975 --> 01:59:09.635
there's no clear winners, but there's a definite loser. And that's the American people.

01:59:11.170 --> 01:59:15.870
By virtue of this dysfunction that you're talking about. You agree with that

01:59:15.870 --> 01:59:19.010
assessment? I do. And that's such a common thing.

01:59:20.170 --> 01:59:26.890
So this dysfunction, it's almost like our politics has transcended the notion

01:59:26.890 --> 01:59:32.210
of winners and losers because you can quote unquote lose over and over and over

01:59:32.210 --> 01:59:34.950
again, and then your party sweeps the next election.

01:59:35.770 --> 01:59:40.590
So the things that matter, the ballot box is ultimately the measure of a win

01:59:40.590 --> 01:59:42.790
or a loss. And all these interim.

01:59:44.523 --> 01:59:48.023
Announcements are really phantom victories or phantom defeats.

01:59:48.203 --> 01:59:50.723
What matters is the ballot box.

01:59:51.323 --> 01:59:55.683
In terms of the actual consequence of all of this, yeah, the American people

01:59:55.683 --> 01:59:59.723
once again, it's the American people, both sides.

02:00:00.063 --> 02:00:05.723
Think about how many Trump voters have had their lives made worse off by his own policies.

02:00:06.003 --> 02:00:09.883
But yeah, it's the people, it's the country, it's the people,

02:00:10.063 --> 02:00:11.363
it's the polity that lose.

02:00:11.703 --> 02:00:15.083
And it's a shame that the guardians of that are

02:00:15.083 --> 02:00:17.983
causing it yeah total agreement with

02:00:17.983 --> 02:00:20.863
that so look i know you got to go tell people how

02:00:20.863 --> 02:00:26.163
they can get this book and how people can reach out to you in the interim thanks

02:00:26.163 --> 02:00:31.383
eric so the book's easy to find amazon's the biggest bookstore in the world

02:00:31.383 --> 02:00:35.703
by a huge margin but if you if you google the book you'll find it wherever books

02:00:35.703 --> 02:00:40.803
are sold barnes and noble etc the trial of donald h rumsfeld,

02:00:41.303 --> 02:00:46.343
and if you want to learn more about me, my website is will-cooper.com.

02:00:46.443 --> 02:00:50.783
It's W-I-L-L-C-O-O-P-E-R.com.

02:00:51.143 --> 02:00:56.083
Well, Will, as always, brother, it's good to see you. It's good to talk to you.

02:00:56.323 --> 02:01:02.483
Keep doing what you're doing, man, and we're going to be doing this for a while,

02:01:02.483 --> 02:01:06.883
it looks like, so I'm glad that you're on my side. Let me put it that way.

02:01:07.303 --> 02:01:08.323
I appreciate it. Absolutely.

02:01:09.603 --> 02:01:14.703
Everything you just said right back at you thank you love coming on and yes

02:01:14.703 --> 02:01:19.663
10 years from now we'll be sitting just like this on your show talking about

02:01:19.663 --> 02:01:24.523
whatever the whatever the big things are of the day and i appreciate that very

02:01:24.523 --> 02:01:26.923
much all right guys and we're going to catch out on the.

02:01:39.284 --> 02:01:43.544
All right, and we are back. And so I want to thank Dr.

02:01:43.704 --> 02:01:50.384
C. Nicole Mason, Maura Gillespie, and Will Cooper for coming on the podcast.

02:01:50.804 --> 02:01:56.804
And I hope you agree with me that they have made this truly a great show.

02:01:57.204 --> 02:02:05.784
You know, in talking to people that, and I always, some people call it self-deprecation.

02:02:05.784 --> 02:02:08.104
And I just, you know, I'm being honest.

02:02:08.484 --> 02:02:14.204
It's just really good to talk to people who are really, really smart, even smarter than me.

02:02:14.764 --> 02:02:21.984
And to pick their brain for the short time that I can get them to talk about

02:02:21.984 --> 02:02:30.564
what's going on and just kind of give perspective so that you all can hear that, you know.

02:02:31.867 --> 02:02:41.587
Dr. Mason is a fierce warrior for women's rights, and she uses her talents of

02:02:41.587 --> 02:02:44.927
research and analysis to fight that fight.

02:02:45.387 --> 02:02:51.907
And like she said in the interview, you know, she's never shy of attending a good protest.

02:02:52.987 --> 02:02:56.727
And she said she was at both of the No Kings rallies this year.

02:02:56.727 --> 02:03:03.367
So, you know, I mean, not only is she doing the analytical part,

02:03:03.507 --> 02:03:06.007
but she's boots on the ground as well.

02:03:07.047 --> 02:03:12.507
And then to have Maura Gillespie on, Maura is a Republican.

02:03:13.907 --> 02:03:20.687
And but she is of the tradition of the Republicans that I was used to serving with.

02:03:20.967 --> 02:03:25.767
Somebody you could actually talk to, even if you disagree on something.

02:03:25.767 --> 02:03:30.727
But her insight, and she's young compared to me.

02:03:31.007 --> 02:03:37.067
She's very young. But her political maturity is amazing.

02:03:37.187 --> 02:03:47.347
And her ability to stay focused and calm, whether she's on Fox News or anywhere else,

02:03:47.567 --> 02:03:52.207
in addressing issues and just being matter of fact about it.

02:03:52.207 --> 02:03:58.547
It's something I've admired, and I'm just finally glad that I was able to get

02:03:58.547 --> 02:04:01.567
her into the fold and to be a guest on this podcast.

02:04:02.187 --> 02:04:03.987
And then, of course, Will Cooper.

02:04:04.707 --> 02:04:10.407
Will is truly not only a good guy, but he's very, very smart.

02:04:10.667 --> 02:04:13.267
And the way that he can...

02:04:14.727 --> 02:04:20.707
Sift through all of the craziness and develop rational thoughts,

02:04:20.867 --> 02:04:25.047
whether he's writing a book or writing a column, you know, to make people that,

02:04:25.047 --> 02:04:31.067
you know, think about what actually is happening to really be able to get it

02:04:31.067 --> 02:04:34.307
where people can understand it. It's an incredible talent.

02:04:34.627 --> 02:04:38.227
And I am glad that he thinks highly of me.

02:04:38.847 --> 02:04:41.047
I am humbled that he thinks highly of me.

02:04:42.707 --> 02:04:47.227
And as long as I'm doing this podcast, Will is going to be a guest.

02:04:47.567 --> 02:04:52.547
He's pretty much made that clear, but I'm really, really proud of him for this

02:04:52.547 --> 02:04:55.867
book, The Trial of Donald H. Rumsfeld.

02:04:56.487 --> 02:05:00.307
Didn't see that coming, but when he sent me a copy of it, I was like,

02:05:00.407 --> 02:05:02.047
oh yeah, we got to talk about this.

02:05:02.427 --> 02:05:06.547
So I'm glad we were able to make the time to do that. So, you know,

02:05:06.667 --> 02:05:13.067
I love all of my I guests they come on, but to have these three particular guests

02:05:13.067 --> 02:05:15.547
at this time, it's really, really special.

02:05:15.567 --> 02:05:17.747
And I'm glad we were able to make that happen.

02:05:18.387 --> 02:05:21.307
So I want to talk about a couple of things before we leave.

02:05:22.487 --> 02:05:28.127
One is something I had, I had mentioned in one of the interviews, I think it was with Dr.

02:05:28.307 --> 02:05:35.387
Mason, when we were talking about the protests and how the election went down or.

02:05:36.494 --> 02:05:42.494
I said something to the effect that people voted, people are politically active

02:05:42.494 --> 02:05:49.034
in the United States more on coincidence than they are on consciousness, right?

02:05:49.354 --> 02:05:56.594
And the goal of this podcast and others like me are trying to get that reversed, right?

02:05:57.114 --> 02:06:04.674
Because it's one thing for me to say, hey, the price of my eggs have gone up,

02:06:04.934 --> 02:06:09.814
right? And then you talk to somebody in another part of the country,

02:06:09.854 --> 02:06:11.594
and they say, yeah, they have gone up.

02:06:12.294 --> 02:06:16.354
And then United, we say, we need to vote for somebody that's going to do something

02:06:16.354 --> 02:06:19.114
about it. That's coincidence, right?

02:06:19.574 --> 02:06:26.374
But where consciousness plays in is that we can decide which person is sincere

02:06:26.374 --> 02:06:30.114
about doing that and which one is just bullshitting about it, right?

02:06:31.014 --> 02:06:33.934
And that's where we didn't have any consciousness.

02:06:34.874 --> 02:06:41.314
We voted on the coincidence that all of us are suffering from the high prices of food.

02:06:41.574 --> 02:06:48.214
And we didn't put any real thought into who really is going to try to do something

02:06:48.214 --> 02:06:51.854
about it or who's just giving us lip service. Right.

02:06:52.314 --> 02:06:55.454
And so that's why we had the result we had in 2024.

02:06:56.254 --> 02:06:57.554
And that's being...

02:06:59.080 --> 02:07:03.540
Case scenario about it. Because a lot of us know there was a lot of other factors

02:07:03.540 --> 02:07:11.460
that kicked in as to why that man got reelected and that woman did not get elected, right?

02:07:12.020 --> 02:07:22.380
So we know that there's a lot of historical sociological stuff that played into what happened.

02:07:22.600 --> 02:07:27.980
But in best case scenario, let's just say people voted more with coincidence

02:07:27.980 --> 02:07:29.860
than they did with consciousness.

02:07:30.220 --> 02:07:36.120
And we've got to get to a point where we want people to vote consciously.

02:07:36.680 --> 02:07:40.720
Yes, we want people to be woke. We don't want people to be asleep.

02:07:41.100 --> 02:07:47.380
When they go to the polls, we want them to be woke. We want them to be paying attention, right?

02:07:48.000 --> 02:07:59.680
And so I guess now it's time for another great awakening, this time in American politics, right?

02:07:59.960 --> 02:08:04.420
Because the first great awakening in American society was based on religion.

02:08:05.120 --> 02:08:13.080
Now we have to have an awakening in American politics because we see when we

02:08:13.080 --> 02:08:17.280
don't use our consciousness, we see the results.

02:08:17.800 --> 02:08:23.480
Now, and that brings me to another point. There are people that are upset because

02:08:23.480 --> 02:08:30.560
President Trump has decided to renovate the White House and add this giant 92.

02:08:32.083 --> 02:08:35.763
Thousand-foot, square-foot ballroom, right?

02:08:36.943 --> 02:08:41.923
So in history, different presidents have done things to the house.

02:08:42.043 --> 02:08:47.343
That house is not the same as it was when it was first built for John Adams, right?

02:08:47.603 --> 02:08:51.363
It actually has burnt up since then, right?

02:08:51.863 --> 02:08:56.943
War 1812, the British burned the White House, So they had to redo it then,

02:08:57.563 --> 02:09:03.143
you know, and people were upset when Thomas Jefferson added like portico, you know,

02:09:03.443 --> 02:09:09.583
not porticos, but he added like extensions, you know, where you could walk from

02:09:09.583 --> 02:09:13.083
your horse to the, to the White House, not in the rain.

02:09:13.243 --> 02:09:14.683
People got upset about that because

02:09:14.683 --> 02:09:19.603
he added that to it. When Harry Truman gutted the White House, right?

02:09:19.803 --> 02:09:22.483
And he lived in the Blair House across the street.

02:09:23.891 --> 02:09:27.611
Republicans were upset about him destroying the White House then.

02:09:27.751 --> 02:09:30.911
And it's kind of like, bro, we got to modernize the building.

02:09:31.071 --> 02:09:33.671
The building is literally about to fall upon itself.

02:09:34.131 --> 02:09:36.291
We got to do some structural work on it.

02:09:37.031 --> 02:09:41.111
So, you know, people are upset about this image.

02:09:41.871 --> 02:09:47.671
Seeing the East Wing being torn off, you probably will freak out when you see

02:09:47.671 --> 02:09:53.511
the pictures of the White House in 1948 when it's nothing but a shell of a building.

02:09:53.891 --> 02:09:57.151
There's steel beams holding up the original walls, right?

02:09:57.811 --> 02:10:03.131
I mean, those things happen. I mean, Jackie Kennedy created the Rose Garden.

02:10:03.271 --> 02:10:05.711
That was an alteration to the White House.

02:10:06.411 --> 02:10:10.731
Now, Donald Trump has paved over that. That's, you know, he said people were

02:10:10.731 --> 02:10:13.971
getting stuck in when the grass was wet and all that.

02:10:14.071 --> 02:10:17.751
And he just didn't want people to have that.

02:10:17.911 --> 02:10:21.771
I guess folks were complaining about mud on their high-priced shoes or whatever.

02:10:22.191 --> 02:10:31.931
So be it. You know, to me, it's about timing and about the allegory more so

02:10:31.931 --> 02:10:36.351
than the actual him wanting to build his ballroom.

02:10:36.751 --> 02:10:42.051
Right. I mean, you know, it's all about his pretension anyway.

02:10:42.351 --> 02:10:52.711
We get that. But just the visual of the White House being damaged is more allegorical.

02:10:53.031 --> 02:10:58.271
As far as his style of governing. Right.

02:10:59.551 --> 02:11:02.751
It's like that's the picture.

02:11:03.351 --> 02:11:09.791
You know, if I was consulting a campaign, I would probably say,

02:11:10.191 --> 02:11:13.531
you know, just like he's tearing up the White House, he's tearing up America.

02:11:14.916 --> 02:11:22.636
Right. So it's all about allegory and timing rather than because if he was a

02:11:22.636 --> 02:11:25.816
popular president, he said, I want to have a ballroom. Nobody would be upset.

02:11:26.436 --> 02:11:31.196
Right. But because he's a terrible president, he's tearing up the White House.

02:11:31.476 --> 02:11:33.536
Folks are losing their mind. Right.

02:11:34.176 --> 02:11:36.256
I mean, Truman was not a popular president.

02:11:37.696 --> 02:11:41.916
So even though the White House needed to be refurbished, you know,

02:11:42.036 --> 02:11:45.496
his political opponents, the Republicans, laid into him. I mean,

02:11:45.576 --> 02:11:47.016
he wasn't even supposed to beat Dewey.

02:11:48.496 --> 02:11:51.356
You know what I'm saying? There we are.

02:11:51.736 --> 02:11:57.296
So I think, you know, people want to be upset about that, so be it.

02:11:57.296 --> 02:12:01.696
But I'm more upset about the damage he's doing to the actual U.S.

02:12:01.776 --> 02:12:04.776
Government, the damage he's doing to the United States Constitution,

02:12:04.776 --> 02:12:11.816
the damage that he's doing to institutions, whether they're in Washington or not,

02:12:12.096 --> 02:12:17.296
such as like wanting to blackball the Southern Poverty Law Center or,

02:12:17.316 --> 02:12:22.216
you know, go after nonprofits that are trying to feed people.

02:12:22.216 --> 02:12:27.656
I'm more concerned about that than I am about historical architecture,

02:12:27.656 --> 02:12:34.776
to be honest, because history has shown that we've gotten a little over emotional about that.

02:12:35.296 --> 02:12:39.736
But again, it's about timing and allegory. So...

02:12:41.266 --> 02:12:48.666
Let's not get tied up and focus on our energy and outrage on that when there's

02:12:48.666 --> 02:12:51.326
so much more that we can be upset about, right?

02:12:53.726 --> 02:13:05.406
And I just really think that at some point in time, we are going to have to mature about politics.

02:13:05.406 --> 02:13:09.806
And I guess that's where this commentary is going.

02:13:10.546 --> 02:13:17.926
You know, we have to be conscious about who we vote for. We have to be mad about the right things.

02:13:18.986 --> 02:13:26.366
And we have to do constructive actions to make those changes.

02:13:27.086 --> 02:13:32.506
I think 7 million people showing up to protest is a constructive thing.

02:13:33.986 --> 02:13:39.726
I wouldn't have been in the position to be elected if it wasn't for thousands

02:13:39.726 --> 02:13:44.546
of people in the South that look like me protesting.

02:13:45.126 --> 02:13:51.886
Right? Whether it was a sit-in, a bus boycott, a march, across a bridge,

02:13:52.446 --> 02:13:56.406
praying in front of a city hall. Right? Thank you.

02:13:57.290 --> 02:14:04.110
Things led to positive actions that gave people like me civil and voting rights.

02:14:04.850 --> 02:14:10.930
And I know what it's going to take for economic rights, but we're going to figure

02:14:10.930 --> 02:14:12.670
it out because that's what we do.

02:14:13.210 --> 02:14:23.670
You know, and for those of you all who think that America should be an all-white nation or, Or,

02:14:23.810 --> 02:14:29.550
you know, the military should be all white or the NFL should be all white or

02:14:29.550 --> 02:14:32.970
the Super Bowl halftime entertainment should be all white.

02:14:33.830 --> 02:14:38.950
You got to get off of that bus because that's not the reality of the world that we live in now.

02:14:39.370 --> 02:14:43.430
So I stated in my last podcast, this is a global economy.

02:14:43.910 --> 02:14:46.950
So there's people that's not going to be white making money.

02:14:47.390 --> 02:14:53.070
There's people that's not even American making billions of American dollars. Right.

02:14:53.550 --> 02:14:56.630
Because that's the way the economy is set up.

02:14:57.470 --> 02:15:03.530
Countries that technically are not even capitalistic countries trade with us

02:15:03.530 --> 02:15:07.770
because we're the biggest consumers on the planet, right?

02:15:08.350 --> 02:15:15.090
So if the economy is global, then your mindset needs to be global.

02:15:15.090 --> 02:15:23.290
And there is no other country in the world that has a representative from any

02:15:23.290 --> 02:15:25.130
country of every country in the world.

02:15:26.548 --> 02:15:30.008
United States. There's no other country like us. There are literally people

02:15:30.008 --> 02:15:36.868
from every country represented in the United States of America, every one.

02:15:37.508 --> 02:15:40.828
And so you got to think like that.

02:15:41.748 --> 02:15:47.548
If you're uncomfortable with people that don't look like you being in leadership, get over it.

02:15:48.128 --> 02:15:52.528
I mean, there's no other way to say it.

02:15:52.848 --> 02:16:02.868
You just have to get over it. and find your niche to make a living or a profit

02:16:02.868 --> 02:16:07.668
even in this global economy, in this new world that we're in.

02:16:08.108 --> 02:16:14.868
Your politics is not going to save you because the politics is getting as diverse

02:16:14.868 --> 02:16:18.628
as the actual population itself, right?

02:16:19.388 --> 02:16:26.028
We've got to get out of that mindset. And then I just want you to imagine if you got what you wanted.

02:16:26.968 --> 02:16:29.948
Can you imagine a U.S. military with nothing but white men?

02:16:30.668 --> 02:16:35.048
We would get blown away. We might hold our own against Canada.

02:16:36.008 --> 02:16:39.468
I don't even know if we can hold our own against Mexico, right?

02:16:40.068 --> 02:16:45.428
Let alone Russia or Ukraine decide to turn on.

02:16:45.828 --> 02:16:49.688
Heck, I don't even know if we could. We're trying to start a war with Venezuela

02:16:49.688 --> 02:16:52.968
and Argentina. Tina, I don't know if we would do that well against them.

02:16:53.508 --> 02:16:56.008
It was just all white men, right?

02:16:57.808 --> 02:17:03.428
So if we can't defend a nation with just all white men, why are we advocating for that?

02:17:04.979 --> 02:17:12.419
I think, if anything, we should have learned that every American contributes.

02:17:13.799 --> 02:17:20.099
And if every American is not contributing, then we need to make sure that they are.

02:17:20.599 --> 02:17:25.399
Right? Now, people have their own free will, and if they choose to, say,

02:17:26.219 --> 02:17:32.259
go into crime or, you know, decide that they want to isolate themselves and

02:17:32.259 --> 02:17:35.699
become homeless or whatever, can't really do anything about that.

02:17:35.819 --> 02:17:38.779
But those people that want to do something, that want to do better,

02:17:38.959 --> 02:17:46.019
which is the overwhelming vast majority of Americans, they want to live in a

02:17:46.019 --> 02:17:48.959
crime-free neighborhood. They want to be able to make a decent living.

02:17:49.099 --> 02:17:52.419
They want to be able to go to the school of their choice.

02:17:53.319 --> 02:17:56.319
Then let's make that happen. Let's stop playing games and say,

02:17:56.479 --> 02:17:57.859
well, they can't go to this one,

02:17:57.859 --> 02:18:03.459
or we can't find a way to get people into this job or into this school,

02:18:03.639 --> 02:18:10.559
that we can't make folks leaders in our military. Just stop.

02:18:11.279 --> 02:18:19.139
And if you really want to be a meritocracy, then step up your game instead of

02:18:19.139 --> 02:18:22.259
living off shame, right?

02:18:22.719 --> 02:18:28.559
Step up your game. Be the best that you can be instead of trying to deny the

02:18:28.559 --> 02:18:31.559
opportunity for others to be the best they can be.

02:18:32.219 --> 02:18:39.359
The only way we're going to make it another 250 years is that we stop with.

02:18:40.475 --> 02:18:43.095
Talk, that we stop with the racism,

02:18:43.695 --> 02:18:52.055
that we just pick people to lead that understand what America is about,

02:18:52.115 --> 02:18:55.995
that we seek to elevate every person.

02:18:56.215 --> 02:19:00.175
The wealthiest nation in the world should not have homeless people.

02:19:00.535 --> 02:19:05.455
The wealthiest nation in the world should be the healthiest nation in the world,

02:19:05.455 --> 02:19:07.475
and nobody should have to pay for health care.

02:19:07.635 --> 02:19:12.595
The wealthiest nation in the world shouldn't have unemployment.

02:19:13.215 --> 02:19:17.955
The fact that we are, in spite of all that, is amazing.

02:19:18.375 --> 02:19:25.015
But just imagine how much better we would be if our public policy was dictated

02:19:25.015 --> 02:19:29.055
toward making sure that those things happened, right?

02:19:30.255 --> 02:19:32.555
Prioritizing for that.

02:19:34.200 --> 02:19:37.320
I mean, Elon Musk can make as much money as he wants.

02:19:38.420 --> 02:19:44.360
If everybody's buying a Tesla, cool. So therefore, we got to have jobs and we

02:19:44.360 --> 02:19:47.020
got to have incomes where people can afford to pay for a Tesla.

02:19:47.420 --> 02:19:51.680
And they need to be healthy to drive it, right? They need to have good vision,

02:19:51.980 --> 02:19:53.780
good reflexes, all that stuff.

02:19:54.520 --> 02:19:58.020
And you want them to have it for a long time. Again, a health issue.

02:19:58.400 --> 02:20:03.320
You want them to be smart enough to figure out how to use the car. That's education.

02:20:04.200 --> 02:20:08.760
You want them to be smart enough to build a car. That's education, right?

02:20:09.440 --> 02:20:14.360
It's not an incredible ask. It's an incredible commitment.

02:20:15.200 --> 02:20:18.840
And the United States of America can do it.

02:20:19.260 --> 02:20:25.080
People like to always use the phrase, I can because I'm an American, right?

02:20:25.080 --> 02:20:28.600
It, then live up to that and stop

02:20:28.600 --> 02:20:37.540
worrying about who's not the right shade of skin complexion or if English is

02:20:37.540 --> 02:20:42.000
their second language or who they decide that they want to live the rest of

02:20:42.000 --> 02:20:46.160
their life with or live the rest of their life being.

02:20:47.000 --> 02:20:52.200
Get off of that. None of those things are a factor in the person that you look

02:20:52.200 --> 02:20:54.100
in the mirror every day. Nothing.

02:20:54.740 --> 02:21:00.680
God made you who you are. It's up to you to make the most of it.

02:21:01.220 --> 02:21:04.360
And in America, that should be the case.

02:21:05.300 --> 02:21:07.380
That's all I got. Thank y'all for listening.