61 Years Featuring Kaylee Jade Peterson and David Eliot

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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So today, as this episode drops, I'll be officially 61 years old,

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and it'll be just another day for me.

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I do acknowledge the fact that I am 61 years old, and I'm thankful that I've

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been able to live this long,

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especially as a black man in America, and we'll get into that later on in the

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show, along with some other things that happened.

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Update on Nekima Armstrong, if you,

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Nekima Levy Armstrong, if you haven't been following, she was released along

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with the other two people that were arrested that were organizing the protest,

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and Grace will mention that in the news summary, but, and they're still out there.

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They just had a press conference last week and, you know, we got,

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we got all sorts of things coming.

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You also know there was another shooting.

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Grace's going to mention that. I'm going to talk about that a little bit.

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And Don Lemon and Georgia Fort got arrested.

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So, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to get into a lot of that. But before I do,

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I'm going to have two guests on.

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So I'm very fortunate. Another person that's running for Congress is going to be on.

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And I'm going to have another person talking about artificial intelligence coming on.

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And this author is coming at AI from a sociologist viewpoint,

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and it's a very, very good read, and it turned out to be a great interview, too.

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So I hope that you enjoy all that.

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And, you know, we're in an interesting time, but like I said,

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I'll get into that a little later.

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Please support us. You know, Georgia is an independent journalist in Minnesota.

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Don Lemon, after he left CNN, he became an independent journalist.

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Those, all of us that are doing podcasts, you know, show your love and support.

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Listen to us. Follow us on social media.

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I don't post as much as some of these other folks, but I do at least post to

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let you know who's going to be on the show and, you know, and just updates about

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what's going on with the podcast.

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But also to just, you know, do what you can to support the podcast.

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This is our 13th season and we do the math, right? Par...

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Sixth year? Seventh year. It'll be our seventh year in July of doing the podcast.

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So support us any way you can. If you want to support this podcast,

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go to www.momenterik.com and do that.

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But please, please stand by those folks who are trying to tell you the truth

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and bring you people that are doing the work.

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Because we are inundated by the foolishness every day.

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So those of us that are trying to give you hope and give you encouragement and

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give you what's really going on, please, please stand by us.

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All right, speaking about news, let's go ahead and kick this program off.

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And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Thanks, Erik, and happy birthday. Federal agents killed Alex Pretti, a 37-year-old U.S.

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Citizen in Minneapolis, during a confrontation sparking intense local protests

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and condemnation following the second such incident this month.

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Gregory Bovino was removed from his high-level U.S. Border Patrol post and replaced

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by Border Czar Tom Homan.

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Tracy Mergen, an FBI agent investigating the fatal shooting of Renee Good by

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a federal officer, resigned.

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Three activists, including Nekima Levy Armstrong, were released from detention

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after being charged with federal crimes for disrupting a church service to protest

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an ICE official's leadership role within the congregation.

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A man was arrested after spraying Representative Ilhan Omar with a pungent liquid

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during a Minneapolis event where she was speaking against federal immigration policies.

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A 28-year-old man was taken into custody on Friday night following an alleged assault on U.S.

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Representative Maxwell Frost during a Sundance film festival party in Park City, Utah.

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The FBI searched a Fulton County election office in Georgia following President

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Trump's claims regarding the 2020 election results.

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A Virginia judge has halted an effort by state Democrats to implement a more

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favorable congressional redistricting map. The U.S.

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Justice Department has joined a lawsuit alleging that the UCLA David Geffen

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School of Medicine illegally uses race as a factor in its admissions process.

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Relatives of two Trinidadian men killed in a U.S. missile strike near Venezuela

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have filed a wrongful death lawsuit claiming the military campaign unlawfully

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targeted civilian vessels.

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A severe winter storm, along with Arctic cold, paralyzed much of the eastern

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United States, killing 62 people, causing massive travel disruptions and leaving

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over a million people without power.

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And the South Carolina measles outbreak has reached 789 cases reported.

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I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news and for the birthday wishes.

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That means a lot. Thank you so much. All right. It's time for my guest, Kaylee Jade Peterson.

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Kaylee Jade Peterson is a 35-year-old working-class mother of two who was making

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her third run for the U.S.

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House as a Democrat in Idaho's first congressional district.

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She was recruited during her freshman year at community college,

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where she double majored in criminal justice and political science to run because

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it was nearly impossible to find

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candidates in a district that received no financial support or attention.

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She grew up with a single mother who worked two to three jobs at a time,

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was very politically active as a teenager.

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Being an advocate and public speaker for diverse students in Idaho's foster

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and school systems, managing local state representative campaigns in 2008 before

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life went a different direction.

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She met her husband 16 years ago, had her daughter at 21, and became a stay-at-home

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mom who worked on the side because they couldn't afford childcare.

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She spent eight years at home, had her son, and became a foster mom before deciding

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she needed to get involved in public policy again and started attending college at 30 years old.

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She has spent the last four years learning how to do rural progressive politics

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differently, how to communicate to rural voters successfully without compromising

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her progressive policy, putting the focus on working-class families and people,

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holding elected officials accountable, and organizing in a rural district that

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has been left behind by national progressives for nearly three decades.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Kaylee Jade Peterson.

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All right. Kaylee Jade Peterson, how are you doing?

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I'm doing all right. I think it's a hard mix, especially right now in American

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politics, where you feel kind of this heavy weight of everything that's happening

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right now, but then also the joys of getting to work with a really amazing community.

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So we tried and ride that balance right now.

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Yeah, yeah. You know, I always tell candidates when they come on the show that

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I'm doing better than they are because I'm not running.

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I've been there, done that. So I know what you're going through and I appreciate

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you sharing some time in the campaign to talk to me.

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One of the things that I like to do to kind of kick everything off is I do a couple of icebreakers.

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So the first icebreaker I want you to participate in is a quote that I want you to respond to.

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And the quote is, together we possess a shared stake in improving and streamlining

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government, even if it means facing uncomfortable troops.

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To pursuit of a more perfect union demands this commitment each and every day.

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What does that quote mean?

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To me, it's everything that I run on, which is this idea that our country and

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our government is not just some abstract political process and a bunch of men in suits.

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It is really the supposed ideals that we believe in as a shared nation.

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It's the constant striving to fulfill these ideals and these promises.

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It is the opportunity of us to innovate the brightest possible future for each

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and every person that lives here.

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Every child, every student, every working class mom and dad,

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every small business owner, every farmer.

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I mean, literally the success of every member of the community rides on how

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well our government is performing and what our government is doing in order to serve these people.

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And so there is this really, really heavy obligation for those in elected office

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to try and constantly strive for that level of perfection or at least fulfill those promises.

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It's everything that government's supposed to be that I think we've lost sight of.

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Yeah. OK. Now, the next icebreaker is going to be what we call 20 questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between one and 20. Eleven. All right.

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Where do you go to check a fact that you see, hear, or read?

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Oh, I'm a former speech and debate kid, so there isn't really one sort of information.

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What I'll tend to do is research where the information came from,

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and then I'll go to any institutions or organizations that have a basis in this,

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so whether it's scientific, academic,

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whether it's a governmental agency, and then I'll look and see where there might

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be other sources of information on that same topic and try to balance it.

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I think that's the best way we can try to find truth right now.

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Yeah. All right. So I've been to 36 states in my lifetime, but I've never been to Idaho.

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So tell me something about the state you grew up in and want to represent in Congress.

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Idaho is this weird, magical place because the state itself is huge.

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My district is over 500 miles long. And so it takes about 10 to 12 hours to

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get from one side of my district to the other.

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And while Idaho seems like this very homogenous state, my district is almost

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like four separate states all in one.

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So you go to North Idaho, you have the Pacific Northwest, you have these gorgeous

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lakes and mountains and the most beautiful places you can imagine.

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And then you go a little further south and you have the Palouse and these rolling

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waves of yellow grain and purple grain and such incredible agriculture and small

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farming families that have been doing it for generations.

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You have a college town, University of Idaho, which is one of the most vibrant

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community college communities that I've ever been part of.

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And then you also have really urban areas.

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And then peppered throughout, we have areas that are so rural that they're still

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considered frontier. So Idaho is really this magical melting pot where you can

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get a little bit of everything depending on what part of the state you're in.

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I think what we remember and what we value and try to represent is how kind

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Idaho was and how close-knit our communities were.

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It was the kind of place where you could never meet a stranger,

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whether you were in line at a gas station or walking down the sidewalk in the middle of Boise.

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It was the kind of place where you could easily build community and connection.

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Yeah. So how did your journey in politics start?

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Mine is a unique and definitely non-traditional trajectory into the political process.

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I was a very, very political child back before there was Google and websites

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that still considered odd talking about the Bush presidency in elementary school.

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So I got my start really writing the Clinton administration over the hanging

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of Kosovo. And I wrote all of my state senators, I wrote the Clinton administration,

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and I got these responses.

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And it just kind of pushed me out into being more politically involved.

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So I remember the no blood for oil protests that had actually gone out in the

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first deployment of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

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And I spoke at many of the protests across Idaho, trying to hold the Bush administration

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accountable for the lies that they told to get us into that conflict.

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And then I was grateful I became a public speaker and advocate by the time I was 12, 13 years old.

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I would speak at conferences for diverse youth in our foster and school systems

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here, working with law enforcement and social workers, students,

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educators on how we could try and legislate a more successful pathway for all

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students to be successful.

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I ended up managing a campaign when I was 18 years old, and this was in 08.

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So it was Obama's first election. That was my first foray into managing a local

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campaign and being a part of this much bigger political process of community

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and volunteers and door knocking and events on campus.

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So for me, then life kind of just took a different direction.

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I wasn't able to jump into university at 18.

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And so I almost kind of started over, met my husband. We had a family.

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I had my daughter when I was 21. We became foster parents. Then we had my second child.

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And I became a stay-at-home mom almost out of necessity.

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I worked nights and weekends, but I was home with my kids during the day until

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the 2016 election. And I think I saw such a drastic shift.

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It wasn't just kind of corporate corruption or the normal corruption we were

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expecting to see from our federal government.

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There was this drastic shift in the dialogue, the way we talked about policy,

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name-calling, the vitriol, the way that we looked at somebody with an R or deans

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to their name instead of any kind of character or integrity.

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And I decided that as soon as my kids were old enough that I'd go back to school

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and I would get my degrees and hopefully have some kind of positive impact.

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So in 2020, right after the COVID lockdown, I was three years old.

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I registered to college.

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I double majored in criminal justice and political science.

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And it was my freshman year at the College of Western Idaho that I saw a Facebook

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post from a local political group I had joined looking for volunteers that were

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willing to put their name down on the ballot.

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And at that point, I said, that's definitely something I can do.

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I'm shy. I'm not worried about having my name out there. I'll do this.

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But ultimately, it became this opportunity to build something that Idaho was desperately needing.

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There's no money in my district. There's no support in my district.

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The DNC doesn't invest in my district.

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There hadn't been any real progressive politics in the state of Idaho in nearly two decades.

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And I fell in love with the work that I get to do, the communities that I was

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building with, the contacts I was making, getting volunteers mobilized,

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getting neighbors connected.

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And I realized that there was huge opportunity that I love the work and that

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I was going to continue doing until we could right the wrongs of the current

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leadership in the state.

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So, yeah, it's been a long time coming, but also kind of came out of nowhere at the same time.

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Well, it sounds like that you were an activist and then, you know,

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those kindles, those that fire just got rekindled based on what you were seeing.

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So I don't think that's an unusual path to politics at all.

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I think that's commendable that you decided to get back in there.

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And to take it to another level. Why is restoring trust your top priority as a candidate?

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I think it is the distrust that voters across the country have in the government

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that has led to the kind of hyper-partisan rhetoric manipulation,

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specifically of rural communities that I see happening from media and social media networks.

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And it feels like because the government

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had corruption because career politicians

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and elected officials didn't truly value their place

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and and did were known for lying you

00:20:09.257 --> 00:20:13.377
know everybody knew that politicians were taking money from places they should

00:20:13.377 --> 00:20:17.677
never were voting for things that didn't work for their state and that distrust

00:20:17.677 --> 00:20:25.437
bred this vulnerability to you know ellison and and all of these right-wing

00:20:25.437 --> 00:20:28.117
kind of media network to shift the narrative.

00:20:28.597 --> 00:20:33.657
And so for me, if we want to fix this hyper-partisan divide,

00:20:33.877 --> 00:20:39.577
if we want to fix the ability to communicate with these communities about what needs to happen,

00:20:40.037 --> 00:20:43.297
what would actually help, that if I have a D next to my name,

00:20:43.397 --> 00:20:46.697
I'm not the enemy, that I'm not trying to destroy their way of life.

00:20:47.417 --> 00:20:53.417
Then I think kind of dismantling a system that didn't work for anybody and replacing

00:20:53.417 --> 00:21:00.217
it with this transparency and integrity and the idea of leadership that we all have,

00:21:00.397 --> 00:21:05.217
where elected officials were a part of the community, that they represented the community,

00:21:05.437 --> 00:21:08.097
that they knew the families, businesses,

00:21:08.477 --> 00:21:10.097
and industries and issues, and

00:21:10.097 --> 00:21:13.397
they were present whenever they weren't in office, that they were present.

00:21:13.617 --> 00:21:19.437
And I think returning that will help us overcome that R versus D,

00:21:19.817 --> 00:21:25.357
that MAGA versus progressives, that trying to overcome that huge divide that

00:21:25.357 --> 00:21:28.317
is hurting rural communities and rural districts now.

00:21:28.497 --> 00:21:31.957
And I think that there's a lot of opportunity in restoring that trust.

00:21:32.836 --> 00:21:41.356
Yeah, and it's very important because I think when somebody mentioned the word,

00:21:41.356 --> 00:21:48.456
when I was talking to them about authenticity, and I think that's what people really want.

00:21:48.816 --> 00:21:54.676
I don't think people are so, the majority of Americans want,

00:21:54.996 --> 00:22:00.396
you know, we've got about, I don't know, maybe a third of the nation is Democrat,

00:22:00.416 --> 00:22:02.096
a third of the nation is Republican.

00:22:02.096 --> 00:22:05.656
And it all varies when we start breaking it down in districts.

00:22:05.876 --> 00:22:11.336
But I think the overwhelming majority of people, regardless of what camp they

00:22:11.336 --> 00:22:14.976
lie in, they want somebody that's genuine and authentic.

00:22:16.656 --> 00:22:20.596
And that's the most important thing to convey.

00:22:21.196 --> 00:22:27.296
And they also want to elect somebody that seems like they're enthused about doing the job.

00:22:27.836 --> 00:22:32.056
And just in the brief conversation we've had so far, I think you're enthused.

00:22:32.196 --> 00:22:37.096
I think you are a person who really wants to do this. So I think that's going

00:22:37.096 --> 00:22:38.436
to carry a long way for you.

00:22:39.156 --> 00:22:44.356
All right, let's get into some issues. Idahoans concerned about the Epstein files.

00:22:44.396 --> 00:22:49.276
And if not, what are they concerned about and how will you go about addressing those concerns?

00:22:50.013 --> 00:22:55.853
The Epstein Files might be the first bipartisan issue that we have in the state of Idaho.

00:22:55.853 --> 00:23:00.933
It is really the one place where I don't care how conservative or progressive

00:23:00.933 --> 00:23:07.553
you are, we all understood that this was the epitome of corruptive power and

00:23:07.553 --> 00:23:10.273
the abuse of the most vulnerable among us.

00:23:10.553 --> 00:23:15.153
And that's what the Epstein Files truly represents is our ability to hold those

00:23:15.153 --> 00:23:19.013
at the top levels of either government or business accountable.

00:23:19.753 --> 00:23:25.213
We're all sick and tired of watching those at the top have little to no consequence,

00:23:25.213 --> 00:23:28.313
no matter how horrific the things that they've done is.

00:23:28.513 --> 00:23:30.973
And the Epstein files is that case.

00:23:31.253 --> 00:23:36.733
And it's been really, really frustrating for me specifically because I'm running

00:23:36.733 --> 00:23:40.233
against somebody who's incredibly close to the Trump administration.

00:23:40.233 --> 00:23:41.913
He's close with the family.

00:23:42.073 --> 00:23:45.533
They actually just started business and enterprises together.

00:23:46.113 --> 00:23:50.193
So when he's in the state of Idaho, when he's talking on the radio or in the

00:23:50.193 --> 00:23:54.433
news, he's 100 percent supportive of releasing the Epstein files.

00:23:54.633 --> 00:23:59.173
But he refuses to do anything that would actually cause the release.

00:23:59.293 --> 00:24:00.353
He refused the scientific.

00:24:00.753 --> 00:24:04.753
He refuses to hold the oversight committee responsible for the fact that we're

00:24:04.753 --> 00:24:08.313
over a month out now from when the files were supposed to be released.

00:24:08.673 --> 00:24:13.193
So for me, it's talking about this isn't just some big political headline.

00:24:13.853 --> 00:24:19.593
This is the abuse of the most vulnerable in our community. This is the abuse of children.

00:24:20.521 --> 00:24:25.401
And I think in conservative circles, they use the term save the children so

00:24:25.401 --> 00:24:32.001
often that the Epstein files become an opportunity for us to come together and agree on this.

00:24:32.281 --> 00:24:34.901
And it's something we're trying to push.

00:24:35.201 --> 00:24:39.501
But at the same time, it perfectly highlights the level of corruption.

00:24:39.501 --> 00:24:43.481
No matter what somebody says, what they do is often totally different when they're

00:24:43.481 --> 00:24:48.541
in elected office. and trying to hold them accountable, especially Epstein,

00:24:48.881 --> 00:24:51.841
and every single name in that file.

00:24:52.421 --> 00:24:55.901
I think it's horrific. You saw the testimony of Sasha Riley,

00:24:56.121 --> 00:25:01.681
and he's naming people like Jim Jordan and Andy Biggs who are sitting in these

00:25:01.681 --> 00:25:03.161
kind of oversight committees.

00:25:03.421 --> 00:25:09.781
So this is far-reaching, and every single person that I've met who's not in

00:25:09.781 --> 00:25:14.561
the files wants to see the text released immediately and wants to see a real

00:25:14.561 --> 00:25:18.541
hammer of justice brought down on those culpable in it.

00:25:19.324 --> 00:25:25.924
Yeah. So what's a what's another big issue that that you're that you want to

00:25:25.924 --> 00:25:28.324
address once you get elected to Congress?

00:25:28.864 --> 00:25:34.424
It's interesting. In Idaho, I think one of the there's a few top issues.

00:25:35.044 --> 00:25:40.024
Idaho, because we have such a large majority of federally owned lands.

00:25:40.324 --> 00:25:44.624
So we are a very big wilderness state. The last major name in the state was

00:25:44.624 --> 00:25:50.564
Frank Church, and he was such an incredible pioneer for protecting environmental issues.

00:25:50.804 --> 00:25:53.024
We actually have the Frank Church Wilderness Area.

00:25:53.284 --> 00:25:58.664
So the people who move to our state are often people who love their sportsmen.

00:25:58.844 --> 00:26:00.684
They love hiking and camping.

00:26:01.064 --> 00:26:05.644
They love being able to take family out on the weekends and spend it in nature.

00:26:05.804 --> 00:26:07.024
They love rafting the rivers.

00:26:07.304 --> 00:26:11.764
We are a huge state amount of business that's done alongside our rivers.

00:26:12.564 --> 00:26:18.424
And public lands then becomes one of the other few issues that the vast majority of Idahoans agree on.

00:26:18.544 --> 00:26:24.544
So 98% of Idahoans agree that public lands is essential to the quality of life in our state.

00:26:24.704 --> 00:26:28.424
And right now, they are 100% under threat.

00:26:28.644 --> 00:26:32.704
Obviously, we have the new BLM director who's coming in, who has been a huge

00:26:32.704 --> 00:26:34.744
proponent of selling off lots.

00:26:34.744 --> 00:26:40.784
They had the keep public lands in public hands bill, which my opponent was actually

00:26:40.784 --> 00:26:44.684
the only member of our congressional delegation, even though they're all Republican.

00:26:44.864 --> 00:26:50.684
My opponent was the only one who voted against keeping public lands in public hands.

00:26:50.684 --> 00:26:56.364
So it's not just a quality of life issue because how clean our water and our

00:26:56.364 --> 00:27:01.384
soil is and the four or five tribes that operate in my district off of the land,

00:27:01.584 --> 00:27:07.244
but also just how essential it is to how we view our way of life here and that

00:27:07.244 --> 00:27:09.324
it is under such threat right now.

00:27:10.007 --> 00:27:14.967
Not even to mention the huge cuts that were made to the Forest Service.

00:27:14.967 --> 00:27:17.727
I work really closely with the Federal Employees Union.

00:27:17.987 --> 00:27:23.967
They were gutted earlier last year. And they actually laid off most of the people

00:27:23.967 --> 00:27:27.007
in the Forest Service on Valentine's Day last year.

00:27:27.187 --> 00:27:32.107
We put people now left to try and manage these lands on a shoestring budget

00:27:32.107 --> 00:27:34.567
without staff that they need in really difficult places.

00:27:35.167 --> 00:27:40.447
So public lands is huge. But then day to day, we are a working class state.

00:27:40.607 --> 00:27:44.887
The average income in my district is $37,000 a year.

00:27:45.387 --> 00:27:49.647
And rural health care is suffering. Rural education is suffering.

00:27:49.867 --> 00:27:53.687
Our wages are stagnating while the cost of housing and rent explodes.

00:27:53.687 --> 00:27:59.647
So for me, I think one of my biggest priorities is just the economic well-being

00:27:59.647 --> 00:28:04.967
of lower working class families in the state and how they are able to thrive

00:28:04.967 --> 00:28:10.807
and compete in a market where we've kind of sold them out to monopolized interests,

00:28:11.187 --> 00:28:15.927
to corporate interests, to big ag that they cannot compete against,

00:28:15.927 --> 00:28:18.167
that exploits their labor and their time.

00:28:18.167 --> 00:28:22.567
And then their love just trying to pick up the pieces and take care of the family.

00:28:22.827 --> 00:28:27.467
And we are an incredibly hardworking team. And we take a lot of pride in our

00:28:27.467 --> 00:28:29.107
work ethic and the grind.

00:28:29.467 --> 00:28:34.407
And so to see these incredible people who work so hard to give back to our communities

00:28:34.407 --> 00:28:39.167
then suffer just trying to have the basic essentials is really difficult and

00:28:39.167 --> 00:28:40.967
definitely a priority for me.

00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:48.759
Yeah. All right. So would you vote for legislation that will abolish ICE?

00:28:49.739 --> 00:28:58.419
Yes, 100%. I want to dismantle this entire system, this DHS,

00:28:58.839 --> 00:29:00.719
the Immigration Services.

00:29:00.939 --> 00:29:07.239
I mean, we need to completely reimagine the way that our government functions.

00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:12.699
One, because incarceration is the most expensive and least effective tool that

00:29:12.699 --> 00:29:15.119
we have in the country to address social issues.

00:29:15.459 --> 00:29:18.899
We know that it's failed. It's been failing for over five decades.

00:29:19.139 --> 00:29:22.879
And there are only a handful of people who can benefit from ICE,

00:29:23.399 --> 00:29:27.999
from DHS, and from the way that our government's operated. But also the lack of trust.

00:29:28.259 --> 00:29:33.639
They have slaughtered American citizens. They are snatching American children,

00:29:33.639 --> 00:29:36.059
whether they are black or brown, white.

00:29:36.059 --> 00:29:39.399
They are taking our children, our neighbors, our co-workers,

00:29:39.979 --> 00:29:45.759
valued members of our communities in indefinite detention into these camps that

00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:51.159
are obviously privately owned and privately profiting off of this kind of harm to our communities.

00:29:51.379 --> 00:29:53.419
And there's no ringing that bell.

00:29:53.659 --> 00:29:58.519
You cannot walk back and say, OK, well, we've addressed these problems and we've

00:29:58.519 --> 00:30:02.839
retrained and now this is a agency to be operating.

00:30:03.059 --> 00:30:05.679
That's just not how this is going to work going forward.

00:30:06.059 --> 00:30:11.159
So 100%, I'm all for abolishing ICE. But I think it's also important we communicate

00:30:11.159 --> 00:30:13.919
that doesn't mean just dismantling a system.

00:30:14.259 --> 00:30:19.219
That means reimagining the way that we get to do it. We get to build something

00:30:19.219 --> 00:30:21.719
back better than it has ever been before.

00:30:22.395 --> 00:30:27.315
And that's where I think that common ground lies, where why don't we streamline immigration?

00:30:27.575 --> 00:30:32.975
Why don't we reimagine and innovate an immigration system that works for migrants,

00:30:33.255 --> 00:30:38.395
that works for those seeking asylum, that works for local communities, law enforcement?

00:30:38.875 --> 00:30:45.555
That's where I really want to spend our time and our funding and leave this

00:30:45.555 --> 00:30:47.115
incredibly dark chapter behind.

00:30:47.355 --> 00:30:52.435
There's no excuses that can be made. There's no apologies that can be had.

00:30:52.715 --> 00:30:58.335
They have murdered at least two American citizens, if not the 38 people that

00:30:58.335 --> 00:31:00.835
have died in ICE custody since this began.

00:31:01.435 --> 00:31:05.675
And there has to be accountability there. And I'm not even just talking about

00:31:05.675 --> 00:31:07.155
dismantling and abolishing ICE.

00:31:07.295 --> 00:31:12.555
I am talking about bringing justice, sexual criminal justice,

00:31:12.555 --> 00:31:16.615
for those who participated in these murders.

00:31:17.295 --> 00:31:22.395
Yeah. Yeah. And I agree totally on that last point for sure.

00:31:22.695 --> 00:31:31.455
You know, when I ran in 2008, in 2006, even, you know, I made the argument that,

00:31:31.675 --> 00:31:36.215
you know, we've had immigrants coming into this nation.

00:31:37.335 --> 00:31:42.575
And, you know, when we had Ellis Island and all that stuff, and then even the

00:31:42.575 --> 00:31:44.695
movement of people within this nation,

00:31:44.895 --> 00:31:50.135
we didn't have all this technology, but yet we were allowing people to come

00:31:50.135 --> 00:31:54.675
in and make contributions eventually to the growth of this nation.

00:31:55.015 --> 00:32:01.575
And I'm just amazed that now we are so technologically advanced that we can't

00:32:01.575 --> 00:32:04.695
seem to have a simple solution for immigration.

00:32:04.975 --> 00:32:09.255
So I'm with you on that in totally dismantling,

00:32:10.305 --> 00:32:15.025
Did you support the Democrats' position during the government shutdown the first time?

00:32:16.245 --> 00:32:22.505
You know, I would have been able to find a way to support it if they had actually

00:32:22.505 --> 00:32:27.385
accomplished affordable and accessible health care on the other side.

00:32:27.825 --> 00:32:33.045
But right now, with not only health care, but what's happening with ICE,

00:32:33.465 --> 00:32:38.585
I think every single one of us is saying, where are these supposed leaders?

00:32:38.585 --> 00:32:43.745
Like, where are these Democrats that are in positions of power and authority

00:32:43.745 --> 00:32:48.825
that can truly lead a movement to offering things like health care and protection

00:32:48.825 --> 00:32:53.525
from an out-of-control executive base mercenary army?

00:32:53.525 --> 00:32:59.225
And so when the shutdown happened, we were all trying to hold tight.

00:32:59.485 --> 00:33:03.925
I was so proud of our Association of Federal Government Employees,

00:33:04.125 --> 00:33:06.645
which oversaw our TSA members.

00:33:06.885 --> 00:33:10.845
They stopped during that government shutdown to make sure that these federal

00:33:10.845 --> 00:33:15.405
employees had house goods and toiletries and hygiene and food.

00:33:15.405 --> 00:33:20.565
And I saw this brotherhood of our unions step up in this community there.

00:33:20.565 --> 00:33:23.865
So we were all saying, okay, we will hold the line.

00:33:24.065 --> 00:33:26.565
We believe in this. We will make this work.

00:33:27.005 --> 00:33:31.285
So then to turn their back on these federal employees who sacrificed so much

00:33:31.285 --> 00:33:34.985
and the harm that came from these communities and not be able to deliver the

00:33:34.985 --> 00:33:39.645
one thing that they were standing for, it's so frustrating.

00:33:39.665 --> 00:33:44.085
And I get angry because I look at what my opponent was saying during that government shutdown.

00:33:44.425 --> 00:33:49.085
The entire alt-right had been spending this 30 days saying that, whatever.

00:33:49.123 --> 00:33:53.903
Democrats wanted to give $1.5 trillion, and they used the word illegal.

00:33:54.123 --> 00:33:55.663
We would say documented immigrants.

00:33:55.923 --> 00:34:01.323
They tried to make it look like the ACA subsidies and our Medicaid was all going

00:34:01.323 --> 00:34:05.463
to the undocumented criminals, the way that they tried to define this community

00:34:05.463 --> 00:34:06.843
that doesn't exist, right?

00:34:06.843 --> 00:34:10.023
So for me it was hard to support

00:34:10.023 --> 00:34:13.383
the democrats when they weren't up there trying to

00:34:13.383 --> 00:34:17.383
fight away this completely false narrative it's

00:34:17.383 --> 00:34:20.323
hard to excuse their absence right

00:34:20.323 --> 00:34:25.763
now and you can't justify the shutdown considering they gave in and didn't get

00:34:25.763 --> 00:34:29.943
anything accomplished for the people so at the time i was trying to be supportive

00:34:29.943 --> 00:34:37.883
but look back there are no excuses yeah so your Your thing is I'm down with

00:34:37.883 --> 00:34:39.663
the fight, but we got to win the fight.

00:34:39.823 --> 00:34:47.923
We can't just, you know, say, okay, it's like enough is enough and we'll play ball again.

00:34:48.143 --> 00:34:52.683
Your thing is if we're going to do this, let's get some results that really help the people.

00:34:54.074 --> 00:35:00.354
Exactly. Especially, I mean, the Democrats in Congress weren't suffering during the shutdown, right?

00:35:00.594 --> 00:35:05.914
It was my working class constituents and the people serving my communities that

00:35:05.914 --> 00:35:08.754
felt, you know, this down.

00:35:09.334 --> 00:35:14.574
So I'm trying to understand the movements. I'm trying to understand logic.

00:35:14.854 --> 00:35:16.954
I'm trying to look at the bigger picture and think, OK, well,

00:35:17.014 --> 00:35:20.934
if they are trying to achieve affordable and accessible health care for these

00:35:20.934 --> 00:35:23.994
same families, then I will stand in this line with them.

00:35:24.074 --> 00:35:26.774
But that to give up was just unexcusable.

00:35:26.974 --> 00:35:31.314
And I think it's the problem that the Democrats have seen really for the last

00:35:31.314 --> 00:35:34.434
few years is where is the leadership?

00:35:34.674 --> 00:35:36.914
Where is the fight? Where is the strategy?

00:35:37.214 --> 00:35:41.754
Because the right is incredibly well organized. No matter how much they dislike

00:35:41.754 --> 00:35:48.714
each other, no matter how different their outcomes are or their values are, they are all united.

00:35:48.974 --> 00:35:52.714
They are pushing the same message. They are using the same strategies.

00:35:52.714 --> 00:35:56.574
They are all coordinated, especially in states like Idaho.

00:35:57.074 --> 00:36:00.154
And so for the left and for the Democratic Party, it's like,

00:36:00.314 --> 00:36:02.534
where is the strategy? Where is this fight?

00:36:03.014 --> 00:36:08.554
And I'd like to see them step up in a way where it feels like somebody or adults

00:36:08.554 --> 00:36:14.194
in the house trying to do the right thing back in D.C., but we have yet to see that, really.

00:36:15.374 --> 00:36:19.534
Yeah. All right. So this is going to be kind of a rapid fire deal. but.

00:36:20.739 --> 00:36:26.299
Would you support, well, do you support the current situation that we have with

00:36:26.299 --> 00:36:32.959
Venezuela that I guess now the president has declared himself in charge of Venezuela?

00:36:33.459 --> 00:36:37.839
So I guess it's a territory. Do you support that position at all?

00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:43.019
No, no. I mean, listen, I should note here's from a note.

00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:47.959
I think he was horrific. But the idea that we are bombing civilians in the capital

00:36:47.959 --> 00:36:51.459
city, the fact that we have not legitimized the opposition party,

00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:53.819
which did democratically win the last election,

00:36:54.439 --> 00:37:01.519
this seems like just a land grab, oil execs at Exxon, and incredibly reckless.

00:37:01.899 --> 00:37:05.059
It's definitely not America first. No, definitely not.

00:37:05.439 --> 00:37:09.099
Okay. Do you support military aid to Ukraine? No.

00:37:09.585 --> 00:37:16.985
I do. I think being one, Russia is a huge threat to our national security,

00:37:17.105 --> 00:37:20.665
and that we are not addressing it as if they are really agrees me.

00:37:21.145 --> 00:37:25.945
Ukraine is essential. The elements, the mineral rights, and for Russia to get

00:37:25.945 --> 00:37:30.885
those becomes a huge issue, not just for America, but for the global community and stability.

00:37:31.125 --> 00:37:34.645
So providing aid to Ukraine isn't just the right thing.

00:37:34.845 --> 00:37:38.345
It isn't just It's important for us to be there for our allies to push back

00:37:38.345 --> 00:37:43.305
against a threat like Putin, but it's also to protect these elements that Russia

00:37:43.305 --> 00:37:44.765
would be able to do a lot of harm with.

00:37:45.225 --> 00:37:47.945
All right. Do you support military aid to Israel?

00:37:48.565 --> 00:37:50.985
No, not a cent.

00:37:51.885 --> 00:37:56.505
Netanyahu and this government is committing absolute atrocities.

00:37:56.505 --> 00:38:00.685
And I think our position in the global stage or at least position that we had

00:38:00.685 --> 00:38:07.205
six months ago before the Trump administration destroyed any trust we had on the national stage,

00:38:07.425 --> 00:38:13.525
we are supposed to be the ones stepping up and drawing line against these war crimes.

00:38:14.165 --> 00:38:17.525
There's no two ways about it.

00:38:17.685 --> 00:38:21.825
I mean, this is a genocide and atrocities, and we should be standing up and

00:38:21.825 --> 00:38:23.405
protecting those most vulnerable.

00:38:23.605 --> 00:38:26.905
But it looks like the Trump administration just wants to profit off the land,

00:38:27.085 --> 00:38:28.545
and that's inexplicable.

00:38:29.645 --> 00:38:34.625
Yeah. I don't know if you saw the, that was introduced over in Davos,

00:38:34.825 --> 00:38:41.005
the conceptualizations of Gaza, the new Gaza city, whatever,

00:38:41.805 --> 00:38:44.085
with the high rises and all that stuff.

00:38:44.265 --> 00:38:48.385
You know, it was like, you know, one reporter dared ask the questions,

00:38:48.565 --> 00:38:50.985
where are the Palestinians in this conversation?

00:38:51.265 --> 00:38:55.745
And nobody, nobody went to the mic to address that. So that's,

00:38:55.765 --> 00:38:58.225
that's really, really a crazy thing that's happening there.

00:38:58.545 --> 00:39:04.445
All right. Taking into account that less than 1% of your population in the state is African-American.

00:39:05.354 --> 00:39:11.234
What is your position on reparations? Yeah, I think we're actually in the top

00:39:11.234 --> 00:39:13.634
five biggest states in the nation.

00:39:13.634 --> 00:39:18.014
And I think that's actually caused a lot of issues and allowed a lot of the

00:39:18.014 --> 00:39:19.754
rhetoric and the misinformation,

00:39:19.754 --> 00:39:24.634
the manipulation of information for all communities that don't have firsthand

00:39:24.634 --> 00:39:29.034
experience with the Black community and with people of color.

00:39:30.614 --> 00:39:39.574
I think that we have to acknowledge that the last 50 years, systemic oppression has created a huge rift.

00:39:39.774 --> 00:39:43.154
I mean, we know this. The data is there. The research is there.

00:39:43.414 --> 00:39:47.114
I don't know exactly how reparations should look.

00:39:47.114 --> 00:39:51.854
I don't know exactly how the federal government can create programs to try and

00:39:51.854 --> 00:39:56.434
address that inequity and that oppression that's happening, but I know that

00:39:56.434 --> 00:39:59.254
it does need to be addressed and it does need to happen.

00:39:59.534 --> 00:40:04.774
And I think the pendulum swung kind of in the right direction under the Obama

00:40:04.774 --> 00:40:08.734
administration, but then it felt like there was such a violent pushback that

00:40:08.734 --> 00:40:11.854
we got so much further away from it than we were 10 years ago.

00:40:11.854 --> 00:40:17.574
So I would like to see an administration where we have the representation there,

00:40:17.814 --> 00:40:24.114
that we have the community there trying to devise programs that do address this

00:40:24.114 --> 00:40:27.994
inequality and oppression that has been systemic for so long.

00:40:27.994 --> 00:40:32.994
But right now it's devastating and we're not even allowed to address the inequality

00:40:32.994 --> 00:40:35.954
in our criminal justice system, which is so black and white,

00:40:36.154 --> 00:40:39.154
so obvious when you look at these statistics and these numbers.

00:40:39.534 --> 00:40:46.114
So I 100% want to address it and I will support it. I just don't know exactly what that looks like.

00:40:46.294 --> 00:40:50.374
And usually I'm such data nerds. Usually I'll have the policy or the solution.

00:40:50.634 --> 00:40:53.854
And that's one issue that I don't think I have the solution yet,

00:40:53.854 --> 00:40:57.654
but I want to support the right solution in the end. Yeah.

00:40:58.014 --> 00:40:59.854
And I appreciate that. So.

00:41:00.826 --> 00:41:04.546
There's a bill that always comes up. I think the latest number was H.R.

00:41:04.566 --> 00:41:08.926
40 that asked for a study on the issue.

00:41:09.086 --> 00:41:12.526
Would you, so you would support that bill if you got elected?

00:41:13.066 --> 00:41:16.166
Oh, a hundred percent. I would go even further.

00:41:16.426 --> 00:41:20.786
I would love to create a department that is looking at addressing these issues

00:41:20.786 --> 00:41:23.966
with our Black community, even with our tribal communities.

00:41:24.066 --> 00:41:27.546
I mean, we have to look at how do we make up the ground.

00:41:27.906 --> 00:41:33.466
And I mean, history is how I feel in love with politics and government in the first case.

00:41:33.666 --> 00:41:39.426
And so I get incredibly frustrated that those in elected C aren't familiar with

00:41:39.426 --> 00:41:43.486
the history or at the very least are intentionally blind to it.

00:41:43.786 --> 00:41:47.086
And so whether it's creating a committee, whether it's creating a department,

00:41:47.426 --> 00:41:52.366
I would support any and all efforts to create a study or to find the right solution.

00:41:53.066 --> 00:41:59.426
Since the circuits of the U.S. Court of Appeals are assigned a circuit justice from the U.S.

00:41:59.706 --> 00:42:04.806
Supreme Court and there are 13 Court of Appeal circuits, would you vote for

00:42:04.806 --> 00:42:08.326
an expansion of the U.S. Supreme Court to 13 justices?

00:42:09.235 --> 00:42:16.515
I want to say yes to this because we have got to address the issues within the Supreme Court.

00:42:16.755 --> 00:42:19.435
The Supreme Court has been compromised.

00:42:19.875 --> 00:42:23.215
There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. We watched this happen.

00:42:23.435 --> 00:42:27.575
So we have to address it. The expansion is one way of doing that.

00:42:27.755 --> 00:42:30.695
I don't know if there are other ways. I know that other people are bringing

00:42:30.695 --> 00:42:35.155
up term limits or trying to cut that down. I don't know if that creates a whole

00:42:35.155 --> 00:42:40.415
other issue where we politicize these benches even more than it has already been.

00:42:40.715 --> 00:42:46.115
But yes, expansion has been the way that I have been looking at trying to fix it.

00:42:46.275 --> 00:42:50.315
So that's that's my support is right now. But it is something I am trying to

00:42:50.315 --> 00:42:52.075
look at the potential solution.

00:42:52.475 --> 00:42:55.375
But it's a priority that we have to address immediately.

00:42:55.995 --> 00:43:02.435
All right. Idaho has not voted for the Democratic presidential nominee since 1964.

00:43:03.135 --> 00:43:07.455
Since 1990, only two Democrats have represented the 1st Congressional District

00:43:07.455 --> 00:43:09.655
for a total of six years of service.

00:43:09.855 --> 00:43:14.495
The last Democratic woman to represent the 1st District left office in 1963.

00:43:15.824 --> 00:43:23.484
Last time you ran in 2022, you received 27% of the vote. Why is 2026 going to be different?

00:43:24.784 --> 00:43:27.884
This is where I knew my promise meant something.

00:43:28.084 --> 00:43:34.004
This is, I knew immediately in 2022, because in 2024, I never once said we could win the election.

00:43:34.244 --> 00:43:38.924
I knew that we needed a candidate who was willing to commit the time and look

00:43:38.924 --> 00:43:43.644
at the picture and do long-term campaigning to build out the infrastructure,

00:43:43.844 --> 00:43:48.524
the trust, the networking, to oppose the kind of dark money that's coming from

00:43:48.524 --> 00:43:52.864
places like the Heritage Foundation and the Freedom Foundation and all of these

00:43:52.864 --> 00:43:56.804
special interests that profit off of these far-right kind of interests.

00:43:57.424 --> 00:44:02.904
And when I started, there were most communities, I could not find a single progressive

00:44:02.904 --> 00:44:05.544
contact. I didn't have any Democratic voters.

00:44:05.784 --> 00:44:07.644
There was no local county parties.

00:44:08.064 --> 00:44:12.504
Most of these areas, most people considered dangerous to just go in and wave

00:44:12.504 --> 00:44:14.264
your hand around saying, I'm a Democrat.

00:44:14.944 --> 00:44:21.344
And I think I benefited from the fact that I am a blonde woman who looks like

00:44:21.344 --> 00:44:23.044
a conservative Idaho mom.

00:44:23.204 --> 00:44:27.344
I think I have also benefited from growing up in these circles.

00:44:27.344 --> 00:44:31.064
My family are kind of old school Eisenhower, Reagan Republicans.

00:44:31.304 --> 00:44:35.904
My dad was a Trump supporter. I married into a Christian evangelical family.

00:44:35.904 --> 00:44:40.724
So I understand what these discussions look like at the dinner table versus

00:44:40.724 --> 00:44:45.284
what we understand actually being involved in politics and on the ground.

00:44:45.624 --> 00:44:50.504
So I think I was able to try and bridge that gap. And it takes time, right?

00:44:50.624 --> 00:44:54.884
I go in and I'm with VFWs and Grange Halls and every local union,

00:44:55.144 --> 00:44:58.244
even though 75, 80% of their membership is Republican.

00:44:58.704 --> 00:45:03.324
I am going straight into kind of the belly of the beast, as some Democrats might

00:45:03.324 --> 00:45:06.584
put it, and showing them that I'm not the enemy. But I'm not the enemy. I'm not the enemy. I'm

00:45:06.696 --> 00:45:11.156
More importantly, offering them the solutions Republicans refuse to.

00:45:11.476 --> 00:45:15.896
Life has gotten much harder in Idaho, and we have had a Republican super majority

00:45:15.896 --> 00:45:17.996
for 30 years. You can't blame the Democrats.

00:45:18.456 --> 00:45:22.316
But when there hasn't been a Democrat in over 20 years in these communities

00:45:22.316 --> 00:45:25.916
to combat that narrative, then we're not going to get anywhere.

00:45:25.916 --> 00:45:31.836
So 22 and 24, it was recruiting local candidates, recruiting local contacts,

00:45:32.076 --> 00:45:38.356
volunteers, building trust and relationship with local communities and organizations, expanding that.

00:45:38.536 --> 00:45:41.336
So it's not just Kaylee for Congress doing work-based communities,

00:45:41.416 --> 00:45:47.356
but now we motivated and connected and given the resources necessary for local

00:45:47.356 --> 00:45:49.736
community members to grow and organize.

00:45:50.556 --> 00:45:55.736
2026 is a really, really unique opportunity for us. One, because the Republican

00:45:55.736 --> 00:46:00.596
Party hasn't delivered on a single promise that they made to the American people.

00:46:00.976 --> 00:46:06.096
Wages are still stagnated. We can't afford groceries, gas, public lands are under threat.

00:46:06.436 --> 00:46:11.316
Things done so that most Republicans I know are questioning this industry.

00:46:11.656 --> 00:46:17.776
But also, I have four years of trust, contact, and volunteers that are so ready

00:46:17.776 --> 00:46:24.616
to mobilize. And on top of that, we have reproductive rights on the ballot for the first time in 26.

00:46:25.116 --> 00:46:30.556
So you have 75% of the population that are progressive already,

00:46:30.716 --> 00:46:36.316
that are women already, that have a really important life-threatening issue

00:46:36.316 --> 00:46:37.956
to show up for on Election Day.

00:46:37.956 --> 00:46:43.656
And even on top of that, we have a decriminalization of marijuana and medicinal

00:46:43.656 --> 00:46:47.236
marijuana on the ballot for the first time, which my veterans,

00:46:47.476 --> 00:46:51.056
my affiliated voters, my libertarian voters 100% support.

00:46:51.276 --> 00:46:53.456
So we have the momentum.

00:46:53.916 --> 00:46:59.196
It is no just Kaylee and Congress out yelling into this giant district trying

00:46:59.196 --> 00:47:00.436
to get people to pay attention.

00:47:00.436 --> 00:47:06.216
We have built a massive community that is able to do the work to win,

00:47:06.316 --> 00:47:10.416
and for the first time I know that we have a path to success.

00:47:11.108 --> 00:47:16.448
It'll be a Hail Mary. Don't get me wrong. It's not going to be easy. It's not guaranteed.

00:47:16.908 --> 00:47:21.128
But I know exactly where the voters are we need to win.

00:47:21.288 --> 00:47:26.168
I know exactly how we reach them to win. And I know about the trust in the community

00:47:26.168 --> 00:47:28.648
to mobilize and engage them to do so.

00:47:28.888 --> 00:47:35.748
So this is a really, really special election and opportunity for us to surprise everyone. All right.

00:47:35.908 --> 00:47:40.488
So I'm asking this question to all of my guests this year.

00:47:40.788 --> 00:47:44.348
Finish this sentence. I have hope because.

00:47:44.348 --> 00:47:52.948
No matter how bad it gets, no matter how hard life is for everyday families,

00:47:53.428 --> 00:47:59.888
no matter how dire and depressing the situation in the news becomes,

00:47:59.888 --> 00:48:04.748
the worse it gets, the more I see our communities come together.

00:48:05.148 --> 00:48:12.308
The worse it gets, the more I see everyday people step up and do extraordinary things.

00:48:12.308 --> 00:48:16.968
And I think when we are put into these incredibly difficult times,

00:48:17.268 --> 00:48:20.348
it's when we really truly get the chance to see the best of us.

00:48:20.548 --> 00:48:24.508
And that is what I have seen, especially over the last six months,

00:48:24.768 --> 00:48:30.648
is I have seen people that don't have resources or experience step up and do

00:48:30.648 --> 00:48:33.288
incredible things and organize incredible solutions.

00:48:33.888 --> 00:48:40.008
And they gave me hope and I think they make it really easy to work as hard as

00:48:40.008 --> 00:48:44.908
we have to work to try and provide some kind of relief and solutions for the people of my state.

00:48:45.428 --> 00:48:50.528
All right. So if people want to get involved with the Kaylee Jade Peterson campaign.

00:48:52.908 --> 00:48:57.548
To reform and revive Idaho, how can they get involved?

00:48:58.406 --> 00:49:02.786
I'm the only Kaylee for Congress that has ever run for Congress in America.

00:49:03.186 --> 00:49:07.926
So I'm the only one you'll find online. It's just Kaylee for Congress,

00:49:08.146 --> 00:49:12.406
K-A-Y-L-E-E-E, all spelled out. Dot com is my website.

00:49:12.806 --> 00:49:17.986
At gmail.com is my email. And it's Kaylee for Congress on all of my social medias.

00:49:18.386 --> 00:49:23.066
We're big on TikTok, Facebook and Instagram. We're incredibly consistent there.

00:49:23.226 --> 00:49:25.406
We're getting all of our volunteers together.

00:49:25.626 --> 00:49:29.406
And we have volunteers from New York to Texas to Florida to California.

00:49:29.506 --> 00:49:31.886
We really are an Asia-wide team.

00:49:32.046 --> 00:49:34.466
We do a lot of remote virtual work together.

00:49:34.866 --> 00:49:38.426
But all those pathways go right to me.

00:49:38.586 --> 00:49:44.206
So if somebody had a question, if they want me to come do some work in the community,

00:49:44.466 --> 00:49:46.386
I am always acceptable to them.

00:49:46.486 --> 00:49:49.606
And I look forward to hearing from people listening today.

00:49:50.246 --> 00:49:54.926
Well, Kaylee Jade Peterson, I am really, really honored that you took the time

00:49:54.926 --> 00:49:56.546
out of the campaign to do this.

00:49:56.686 --> 00:49:58.906
I wish you much success in the campaign.

00:49:59.486 --> 00:50:03.426
One of the rules I have is that, you know, once you've been a guest,

00:50:03.626 --> 00:50:09.506
you have an open invitation to come back, and it would be really, really sweet if a U.S.

00:50:09.806 --> 00:50:13.586
Congresswoman from Idaho would come back on to be a guest on the program.

00:50:13.766 --> 00:50:18.006
So thank you so much for doing this, and again, good luck on the campaign.

00:50:18.546 --> 00:50:22.646
Thank you so much for the time. And I look forward to seeing you in the end

00:50:22.646 --> 00:50:28.766
of January next year when we've been initiated and sworn in.

00:50:28.986 --> 00:50:31.586
Thank you so much, Erik. And thank you for the work that you're doing.

00:50:32.346 --> 00:50:34.686
All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

00:50:54.121 --> 00:50:59.741
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, David Eliot.

00:51:00.101 --> 00:51:04.861
David Eliot is a PhD candidate at the University of Ottawa,

00:51:04.861 --> 00:51:09.721
where he researches the social and political effects of artificial intelligence.

00:51:10.081 --> 00:51:15.301
He is a member of the Critical Surveillance Studies Lab, and his work on AI

00:51:15.301 --> 00:51:21.201
has been recognized with numerous awards, including the 2022 Pierre Elliott

00:51:21.201 --> 00:51:24.541
Trudeau Foundation PhD scholarship.

00:51:24.921 --> 00:51:30.081
His first book, Artificially Intelligent, The Very Human Story of AI,

00:51:30.501 --> 00:51:35.101
was recently published by the University of Toronto Press, and we're going to

00:51:35.101 --> 00:51:37.641
be talking about that during the interview.

00:51:37.921 --> 00:51:42.121
So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a

00:51:42.121 --> 00:51:45.361
guest on this podcast, David Eliot.

00:51:56.846 --> 00:52:00.526
All right. David Eliot, how are you doing, sir? You doing good?

00:52:01.266 --> 00:52:04.646
I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me on today. Well,

00:52:04.786 --> 00:52:06.266
I appreciate you coming on.

00:52:06.486 --> 00:52:12.146
I just recently had a guest, so I don't know what's going on in Canada with

00:52:12.146 --> 00:52:16.106
AI, but I recently, I just had a professor up at the University of Waterloo,

00:52:16.246 --> 00:52:19.146
and she had written a book about AI, and I looked and I said,

00:52:19.266 --> 00:52:21.166
oh, yeah, I got another guest coming on.

00:52:21.166 --> 00:52:26.346
So even though this is a political show, it seems like I'm getting some of the

00:52:26.346 --> 00:52:29.946
top minds as far as artificial intelligence goes.

00:52:30.126 --> 00:52:34.186
So I really appreciate that. That raises my level, makes people think that I'm intelligent.

00:52:35.166 --> 00:52:39.346
Oh, I'm sure you don't need the help of that, but I'm glad I can be in persistence.

00:52:40.646 --> 00:52:46.406
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. So look, I usually start off the

00:52:46.406 --> 00:52:49.166
interview with a couple of icebreakers.

00:52:49.946 --> 00:52:54.426
So the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to.

00:52:54.666 --> 00:53:01.546
And the quote is, what use is producing knowledge if we cannot effectively share

00:53:01.546 --> 00:53:03.126
it with those who need it most?

00:53:04.618 --> 00:53:07.378
Yeah. So, I mean, it's a quote from the prologue of the book.

00:53:08.258 --> 00:53:12.938
And it was one of the major reasons I wrote this book. It was one of the first lines I actually wrote.

00:53:13.358 --> 00:53:17.498
And it came from a frustration I have of academia. And I am an academic.

00:53:17.938 --> 00:53:21.498
My grandparents were academics. I was born to this world and I love it.

00:53:22.078 --> 00:53:25.698
But I'm also critical of it because I feel like a lot of the time we end up

00:53:25.698 --> 00:53:30.718
in these ivory towers producing this knowledge that we don't effectively share

00:53:30.718 --> 00:53:33.738
with people. that just becomes a bit of an echo chamber.

00:53:34.038 --> 00:53:38.058
And at times we can just be justifying our own existence. That's not everybody,

00:53:38.058 --> 00:53:41.198
but it's become more and more common, I think, with academics.

00:53:41.918 --> 00:53:47.758
And I see people in the everyday world experiencing problems that in the academy,

00:53:47.758 --> 00:53:52.838
we feel like we have the answers for, and then they get upset that people aren't doing things.

00:53:53.198 --> 00:53:58.378
And I feel like, well, we aren't reaching out. We aren't producing work in ways that are accessible.

00:53:58.558 --> 00:54:01.258
You know, we write peer-reviewed papers. We write journal articles.

00:54:01.638 --> 00:54:04.698
We respond to each other, but we just build this echo chamber.

00:54:05.998 --> 00:54:09.218
And I really wanted to in this book, but I feel like a lot of great authors

00:54:09.218 --> 00:54:13.218
have done, this is not unique to me, was to really kind of try and take the

00:54:13.218 --> 00:54:17.218
academic research and present it in ways that it gets to the communities who need it.

00:54:17.498 --> 00:54:20.918
And that we meet people where they are. We don't say, oh, well,

00:54:20.998 --> 00:54:22.658
you should come to us for our knowledge.

00:54:22.918 --> 00:54:26.378
That we should meet people where they are, make it accessible to them.

00:54:26.618 --> 00:54:32.098
And beyond everything else, make it enjoyable. because people want to enjoy

00:54:32.098 --> 00:54:36.518
learning. They want to enjoy the content they're getting. And not everybody's an academic.

00:54:36.818 --> 00:54:39.498
Not everybody was meant to be in this life.

00:54:40.598 --> 00:54:46.098
Yeah, that's true about being an academic. So the next iceberg is what we call

00:54:46.098 --> 00:54:51.138
20 questions. So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

00:54:51.958 --> 00:55:00.278
Go 18. Okay. What's one thing we might all agree is important no matter our differences?

00:55:01.558 --> 00:55:02.758
Ooh, that's a good one.

00:55:04.447 --> 00:55:06.887
It's one of those things where I feel like there's a lot we agree on that's

00:55:06.887 --> 00:55:10.247
important. And when you get asked the question, I kind of blank on it.

00:55:10.867 --> 00:55:16.927
I just think central values of humanity in general and trying to be kind to each other.

00:55:17.067 --> 00:55:19.327
And I think in practice, what that

00:55:19.327 --> 00:55:23.347
takes and promoting human thriving is something I think we all agree on.

00:55:24.027 --> 00:55:27.667
I think where we differ is in practice of how we achieve that.

00:55:27.887 --> 00:55:31.967
And that's where a lot of division can arise. And I think actually with this,

00:55:32.127 --> 00:55:36.867
a great quote from an indigenous leader in Canada I got to spend some time with.

00:55:37.047 --> 00:55:40.727
And she's a very famous environmentalist, has done amazing work,

00:55:40.747 --> 00:55:46.127
but is constantly speaking to Fortune 500 companies, to oil companies, to all these groups.

00:55:46.287 --> 00:55:51.067
And I asked her, how do you work with them when they seem to be so diametrically opposed to you?

00:55:51.227 --> 00:55:55.227
And she said, I always need to remember that every human being at their core

00:55:55.227 --> 00:56:00.607
has 98% in common. our core values and what drives us is usually the same.

00:56:01.087 --> 00:56:06.047
That 2% of how we try and actualize it and how we understand how we do that is where we differ.

00:56:06.427 --> 00:56:10.707
But if we focus on that 2%, we'll get nowhere. If we can try and build from

00:56:10.707 --> 00:56:13.227
that 98%, we can build something together.

00:56:13.627 --> 00:56:17.627
And that's what was sat with me. So I think what we share tends to be core values.

00:56:18.267 --> 00:56:24.127
You know, it's interesting because I always made that argument when I was in the legislature.

00:56:24.147 --> 00:56:31.247
I used to tell people that, about 98% of the time we all agreed on stuff is

00:56:31.247 --> 00:56:33.127
just the 2% that made the news.

00:56:34.467 --> 00:56:39.727
And it looked like we hated each other's guts and all that. So that's interesting.

00:56:40.367 --> 00:56:44.287
That's a good philosophy to maintain.

00:56:44.827 --> 00:56:50.227
Maybe that'll help us here in the United States kind of navigate things a little better.

00:56:50.707 --> 00:56:56.407
How does one evolve from a magician to a researcher of artificial intelligence?

00:56:57.605 --> 00:57:01.605
Yeah, it was a very interesting and weird path, because I was working in that

00:57:01.605 --> 00:57:07.045
industry, having some nice success, touring, and I got a little tired.

00:57:07.365 --> 00:57:10.845
The entertainment lifestyle is exhausting, and I wanted a bit more stability.

00:57:11.225 --> 00:57:16.145
So I decided to go to university during the winter months and tour during the summer months.

00:57:16.465 --> 00:57:20.325
So I was doing my degree for eight months of the year, tour for four months,

00:57:20.505 --> 00:57:23.785
and I ended up studying sociology, which I loved.

00:57:24.125 --> 00:57:26.005
Thought I was going to continue that research.

00:57:26.385 --> 00:57:28.965
And actually, my original research was on American politics.

00:57:29.165 --> 00:57:33.485
I was doing the sociology of American politics at the time, specifically as

00:57:33.485 --> 00:57:36.045
it related to the rise of Donald Trump.

00:57:37.459 --> 00:57:41.519
And in that, we focused a lot on misinformation. So how does misinformation

00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:44.699
get produced? How does it get spread? Why is it so difficult to deal with?

00:57:44.939 --> 00:57:48.719
And one of the things with it is how easy it is to produce. It's much harder

00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:51.299
to produce good journalism than it is just to write, you know,

00:57:51.379 --> 00:57:52.559
a falsehood and put it out there.

00:57:53.399 --> 00:57:57.479
And then I came across a program which said it could write like a human,

00:57:57.659 --> 00:58:01.859
that you could just give it a prompt and it would write like a human. This was 2019. team.

00:58:02.399 --> 00:58:06.399
I'm like, well, if that was real, that could be really dangerous for misinformation.

00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:11.119
So I started researching this, met with some friends from Silicon Valley,

00:58:11.159 --> 00:58:14.599
and they're all like, it's real. It's really crazy. You need to see it.

00:58:14.859 --> 00:58:18.479
They directed me towards the company. I got to see some early demos of it.

00:58:18.759 --> 00:58:22.179
And I was floored. And I instantly said, this is going to change everything.

00:58:22.519 --> 00:58:24.599
And originally I was thinking about misinformation.

00:58:25.139 --> 00:58:28.779
But quickly I realized, no, this is going to change everything.

00:58:29.259 --> 00:58:33.899
And that program was GPT-2. So the company that I was looking at was OpenAI.

00:58:34.339 --> 00:58:38.259
And I just had the same moment that everybody else had when they saw ChatGPT.

00:58:38.719 --> 00:58:42.039
And when this is going to change everything, and every academic started doing

00:58:42.039 --> 00:58:46.739
AI research at that point, I just got lucky that I got to have that moment three

00:58:46.739 --> 00:58:50.339
years earlier, or four years earlier. Yeah, four years earlier.

00:58:51.079 --> 00:58:54.939
And then the pandemic hit, I couldn't tour. So I said, well,

00:58:54.979 --> 00:58:58.939
I'll just continue of this academic path, researching AI, at that point,

00:58:59.019 --> 00:59:01.839
I'm like, I feel like we've got at least 10 or 15 years before this becomes

00:59:01.839 --> 00:59:04.659
a really big deal. Boy, was I wrong on the timeline.

00:59:05.299 --> 00:59:09.799
And things just transitioned in. I never left this job when the world opened up.

00:59:09.899 --> 00:59:14.379
And I'm so happy to be in this field and getting to do work and try and help

00:59:14.379 --> 00:59:15.999
people understand this moment we're in.

00:59:17.099 --> 00:59:21.959
Why is artificial intelligence a very human story?

00:59:23.145 --> 00:59:29.225
So I think it's interesting because we tend to talk about AI as if it's some alien technology.

00:59:29.585 --> 00:59:34.845
I actually think in Noah Harari's recent book, he called it like an alien multiple

00:59:34.845 --> 00:59:38.945
times, this idea of framing it as this like extraterrestrial thing that's come

00:59:38.945 --> 00:59:41.125
in that's so different, that's this other.

00:59:41.705 --> 00:59:44.425
But the reality is that ai is a

00:59:44.425 --> 00:59:47.965
human technology it's a technology that was made by us

00:59:47.965 --> 00:59:51.065
and it's controlled by us

00:59:51.065 --> 00:59:54.165
in the story of this book i try and explore

00:59:54.165 --> 00:59:56.885
the human foundations of ai so in this we're

00:59:56.885 --> 00:59:59.905
looking at the humans who made it how they built it the decisions they

00:59:59.905 --> 01:00:02.865
made and i think it teaches us some interesting things

01:00:02.865 --> 01:00:05.925
and one is how the behaviors of ai really take

01:00:05.925 --> 01:00:09.325
on our behaviors how the grief of

01:00:09.325 --> 01:00:12.205
some of its creators how their objectives really shaped this

01:00:12.205 --> 01:00:16.005
technology we're dealing with right now that ai it's

01:00:16.005 --> 01:00:18.705
directed by us it might feel separate but if

01:00:18.705 --> 01:00:23.005
we treat it like that we treat it as something that we need to control as something

01:00:23.005 --> 01:00:27.285
that you know is an existential threat instead of realizing that it is an oftentimes

01:00:27.285 --> 01:00:32.505
a reflection of us a reflection of our decisions that's why ai in the united

01:00:32.505 --> 01:00:37.645
states is so different than ai in europe and why ai in Europe is so different than AI in China.

01:00:38.025 --> 01:00:42.065
It builds and reflects the people building it, the cultures building it,

01:00:42.145 --> 01:00:43.705
the understandings and the values.

01:00:44.205 --> 01:00:47.685
And I think one of the really empowering things about that that I wanted readers

01:00:47.685 --> 01:00:50.885
to take out of this book is understanding that the shape it's taking,

01:00:51.165 --> 01:00:54.265
the way it's affecting us, is caused by human decisions.

01:00:54.765 --> 01:00:58.985
And that there are still decisions left to be made. We as humans get to make

01:00:58.985 --> 01:01:01.345
more decisions now that will decide the future of AI,

01:01:01.585 --> 01:01:05.505
that will decide how it's implemented into our society, how it's built how it's

01:01:05.505 --> 01:01:11.225
designed so we get to make choices right now that will define the ai world that

01:01:11.225 --> 01:01:15.225
we get to live in that our grandchildren get to live in and potentially people

01:01:15.225 --> 01:01:19.265
for the next 100 200 years of civilization get to live in.

01:01:20.444 --> 01:01:25.744
Yeah, I, you know, it was, it was really the way you started the book out.

01:01:25.924 --> 01:01:32.884
That was really, really fascinating because, you know, I, there were some terms

01:01:32.884 --> 01:01:35.304
like Boolean. I had heard that term before.

01:01:35.904 --> 01:01:38.924
I guess I was paying attention to math class when that happened,

01:01:39.044 --> 01:01:44.564
but it was like, so to hear the origin story behind that and how we got the

01:01:44.564 --> 01:01:46.544
word algorithm and all that stuff.

01:01:46.544 --> 01:01:52.824
It was like it was you could tell from the jump how you were reminding us of

01:01:52.824 --> 01:01:57.204
how much of an impact humans have had in this.

01:01:57.204 --> 01:02:03.524
Because, you know, a lot of, you know, even though in the back of our mind,

01:02:03.684 --> 01:02:06.824
a very, very basic understanding is like,

01:02:07.264 --> 01:02:15.164
yeah, we humans created AI, but it just, you know, it's another to make a real

01:02:15.164 --> 01:02:19.724
historical connection all the way back to the beginning of mathematics.

01:02:19.824 --> 01:02:23.144
So I really appreciated how you did that. Well, thanks.

01:02:23.804 --> 01:02:28.344
Did you? So when you were giving your answer on the quote,

01:02:28.604 --> 01:02:36.484
you were talking about why you felt compelled to share knowledge,

01:02:36.484 --> 01:02:40.184
how to take the knowledge from the ivory tower and bring it to the masses.

01:02:40.284 --> 01:02:43.904
Was that the same compulsion that led you to write the book?

01:02:45.129 --> 01:02:51.029
Yeah, yeah, 100%. Because I really felt like with AI, especially at that time,

01:02:51.229 --> 01:02:54.769
when I started the book, you know, we are really starting to kind of develop

01:02:54.769 --> 01:02:56.609
the public conversation on AI.

01:02:57.189 --> 01:03:00.829
And what I saw was in academia, there was a lot of really good research,

01:03:01.089 --> 01:03:02.069
a lot of really good stories.

01:03:02.349 --> 01:03:05.109
You know, you can look at the reference list in this, I'm trying to pull from,

01:03:05.249 --> 01:03:07.409
you know, this academic body of knowledge.

01:03:08.069 --> 01:03:10.969
But then I found with my friends, whenever they would ask me,

01:03:11.169 --> 01:03:12.389
you know, what book should I read?

01:03:12.529 --> 01:03:15.729
What do I need to do to like learn how to navigate AI in my work?

01:03:15.869 --> 01:03:18.389
And you know, my friends come from every background.

01:03:18.609 --> 01:03:23.029
You know, I'm friends with marketing researchers, I'm friends with athletes,

01:03:23.209 --> 01:03:27.049
I'm friends with people from, you know, unfortunately, I'm friends with some politicians too.

01:03:27.529 --> 01:03:30.809
And they will always ask, you know, what do I read? And I'd give them these

01:03:30.809 --> 01:03:32.049
readings that I thought were valuable.

01:03:32.549 --> 01:03:35.129
And they would never read them. And then I would be like, well,

01:03:35.169 --> 01:03:36.929
what are you watching? What are you learning from?

01:03:37.289 --> 01:03:41.009
And when I came to realize through the way they talked about it or the things

01:03:41.009 --> 01:03:45.329
I saw was that what was accessible tended to be,

01:03:45.749 --> 01:03:50.149
you know, these crypto bros turned AI bros who were spewing what was really

01:03:50.149 --> 01:03:53.249
like not great advice, in my opinion.

01:03:53.689 --> 01:03:58.529
So you kind of saw this really weird thing where I felt like this good knowledge

01:03:58.529 --> 01:04:00.409
wasn't available to these people.

01:04:00.709 --> 01:04:03.629
So I really wanted to kind of fill that gap. I want to provide,

01:04:03.829 --> 01:04:07.529
I'm like, if this book doesn't exist, I want to provide it because right now

01:04:07.529 --> 01:04:11.229
it seems like the option is, you know, easily accessible and digestible,

01:04:11.329 --> 01:04:15.089
but not good information or very good, but not easily accessible information.

01:04:15.089 --> 01:04:20.009
So I kind of felt like I was craving that book so I could suggest it to my friends.

01:04:20.149 --> 01:04:21.249
And I'm like, you know what?

01:04:21.609 --> 01:04:25.709
If there is a opening here, someone's going to make it. Might as well be me.

01:04:26.569 --> 01:04:32.309
Yeah. You stated that it wasn't necessary for you to know how AI works,

01:04:32.309 --> 01:04:35.069
but to study its implications.

01:04:35.669 --> 01:04:37.209
Why, why that approach?

01:04:38.675 --> 01:04:42.455
Yeah. So I think a major thing with this is you, of course, need to know how

01:04:42.455 --> 01:04:44.235
it works to a certain extent.

01:04:44.555 --> 01:04:48.675
But I think one of the really intimidating things with AI is the mathematics

01:04:48.675 --> 01:04:54.255
behind it and understanding how vectors work, understanding how neural networks work.

01:04:54.755 --> 01:04:58.675
And that nitty gritty is very important when you're trying to understand specific

01:04:58.675 --> 01:05:01.775
implications and the specific way it involves.

01:05:02.035 --> 01:05:05.035
But in the general, I think you only need

01:05:05.035 --> 01:05:07.835
to know a certain amount like there's a base level of knowledge you

01:05:07.835 --> 01:05:10.535
need to join the conversation and to be

01:05:10.535 --> 01:05:14.375
involved in it and to be able to you know identify when someone's

01:05:14.375 --> 01:05:18.455
selling you a lie to be able to identify you know who might actually know what

01:05:18.455 --> 01:05:22.315
they're talking about in this area to be able to look at a scenario look at

01:05:22.315 --> 01:05:27.855
a situation see a new story and say hey that's a problem because of this the

01:05:27.855 --> 01:05:30.975
way they're using ai here is a problem because of these principles,

01:05:31.755 --> 01:05:34.615
So the book tries to teach you how AI works.

01:05:34.915 --> 01:05:38.795
Like we talk about the actual structures of it. We talk about how these structures

01:05:38.795 --> 01:05:41.835
cause issues, how they interact with social processes.

01:05:42.235 --> 01:05:48.415
But the specifics of the mathematics, those aren't as important for the general

01:05:48.415 --> 01:05:49.355
knowledge understanding.

01:05:49.555 --> 01:05:52.975
They aren't as important for your everyday person and what I feel like they

01:05:52.975 --> 01:05:55.535
need to effectively participate in democracy.

01:05:56.695 --> 01:06:01.655
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you took that approach because I hated math.

01:06:02.095 --> 01:06:06.955
And my dad was a math major, and he would get frustrated. It's like,

01:06:07.015 --> 01:06:08.215
why are you not getting this?

01:06:08.315 --> 01:06:10.815
It's like, because I don't like it. He said, well, you got to like it because

01:06:10.815 --> 01:06:12.395
you got to pass, all that stuff.

01:06:12.755 --> 01:06:21.055
But he would have got real heavy into the math part of the whole thing, but not me, not so much.

01:06:22.555 --> 01:06:26.635
I think there's an actual moment in the book too where i am talking about something

01:06:26.635 --> 01:06:30.815
and i say don't worry we're not going to go into the math on this and then i

01:06:30.815 --> 01:06:35.875
felt like i also had to add parentheses possibly because i don't understand it either.

01:06:37.928 --> 01:06:45.548
All right. So how dangerous is systemic bias in facial recognition?

01:06:46.628 --> 01:06:50.988
Massively dangerous. It is one of the biggest issues with AI.

01:06:51.608 --> 01:06:55.148
And it's been there from the beginning. And even as it gets better,

01:06:55.428 --> 01:06:58.248
we still have these issues and they continue to come up.

01:06:58.428 --> 01:07:02.108
So for your listeners who might not understand how the systemic bias works,

01:07:02.648 --> 01:07:05.988
you know, with AI is trained on a data set so when

01:07:05.988 --> 01:07:08.688
you're doing that data set so there's kind of two ways in a sense this

01:07:08.688 --> 01:07:11.708
can happen one is just like a data set made for say

01:07:11.708 --> 01:07:14.848
recognizing faces if that data set

01:07:14.848 --> 01:07:17.648
like the original data sets which were used done in silicon

01:07:17.648 --> 01:07:21.128
valley are heavily you know say white people it

01:07:21.128 --> 01:07:24.108
will have a difficult time identifying people of different races

01:07:24.108 --> 01:07:27.208
this associates in

01:07:27.208 --> 01:07:30.228
many different ways because you have one thing if like the system

01:07:30.228 --> 01:07:32.968
might not be that good at associating people from one group or another

01:07:32.968 --> 01:07:35.708
so it can be shown to be you know very successful in

01:07:35.708 --> 01:07:38.548
one place but then it confuses two people together so in

01:07:38.548 --> 01:07:44.268
stuff like criminal justice applications that has massive issues we also see

01:07:44.268 --> 01:07:48.628
it where people tend to think about facial recognition in the sense of you know

01:07:48.628 --> 01:07:52.408
we're going to take one person take their photo say who is this and we'll find

01:07:52.408 --> 01:07:55.748
who it is so misidentification is a huge problem there.

01:07:56.698 --> 01:08:01.258
But facial recognition extends beyond that. There's ideas of using facial recognition

01:08:01.258 --> 01:08:05.178
to, you know, detect someone's mood, to detect, you know, to say,

01:08:05.298 --> 01:08:08.498
this person's being aggressive or things like that.

01:08:08.878 --> 01:08:14.898
Again, you have massive bias implication there because these are not objective

01:08:14.898 --> 01:08:16.778
ideas. These are social ideas.

01:08:16.998 --> 01:08:21.558
So if you've trained, say, the system in one region where the way that someone

01:08:21.558 --> 01:08:24.778
shows, you know, aggressiveness on their face has a very, you know,

01:08:24.858 --> 01:08:28.318
pronounced kind of idea of and that's how it is in one culture,

01:08:28.538 --> 01:08:30.258
that might not be the same in another.

01:08:30.458 --> 01:08:34.238
So it could easily read onto this different thing.

01:08:34.338 --> 01:08:38.498
So a system that's meant to recognize if someone's being aggressive, that can be a problem.

01:08:38.758 --> 01:08:42.258
I was at a company that was showing that they actually have facial recognition

01:08:42.258 --> 01:08:46.678
systems on their computer now, that when dealing with sensitive documents,

01:08:46.858 --> 01:08:51.778
it is looking to see if you seem upset or agitated, and it will actually restrict

01:08:51.778 --> 01:08:55.798
your access to sensitive documents if you're upset or agitated out of a fear

01:08:55.798 --> 01:08:59.958
that you're going to be stealing them or taking some sort of retribution against the company.

01:09:00.398 --> 01:09:03.058
And just in a cultural sense.

01:09:04.106 --> 01:09:08.426
It doesn't work like that. Like we don't have that ability to adequately do

01:09:08.426 --> 01:09:09.906
that because of the bias in the data.

01:09:10.166 --> 01:09:15.646
So yeah, there are huge problems, especially when it comes to policing in the United States.

01:09:15.726 --> 01:09:18.846
We see a lot of it used in policing systems there.

01:09:19.266 --> 01:09:23.386
It's being used way more in England right now. I have a friend doing a lot of

01:09:23.386 --> 01:09:25.606
research on facial recognition systems in England.

01:09:26.326 --> 01:09:32.986
It's just a whole can of worms that has an entire subset of academia looking at it.

01:09:33.046 --> 01:09:35.766
And most of the best researchers that I know all kind of say,

01:09:35.766 --> 01:09:40.986
we should not be using this for anything important because it's just going to

01:09:40.986 --> 01:09:42.406
cause more problems than it's worth.

01:09:43.026 --> 01:09:47.126
Yeah. I, you know, I know about the, the policing thing.

01:09:47.266 --> 01:09:52.086
That's if you watch any cop show that's based out of Britain,

01:09:52.706 --> 01:09:57.506
every cop, it doesn't matter if they're a normal B cop or they're the head of Scotland Yard.

01:09:57.786 --> 01:10:01.086
Everybody's like, check the facial recognition. You know what I'm saying?

01:10:01.086 --> 01:10:06.726
And so it's like, I know it's a big deal in London, but, and it's something

01:10:06.726 --> 01:10:08.846
that's being incorporated in the United States.

01:10:09.046 --> 01:10:13.206
And the young lady I was talking about, Kem-Laurin Lubin, she'd written a book

01:10:13.206 --> 01:10:14.666
called Design Heuristics.

01:10:15.466 --> 01:10:21.086
And she talks about, you know, tries to talk about how we can get to a better

01:10:21.086 --> 01:10:25.286
way of dealing with those kind of biases and stuff.

01:10:26.426 --> 01:10:29.366
And there's a lot of work being done on it because it's important.

01:10:29.366 --> 01:10:32.386
And but like one example, I like to throw it on these biases,

01:10:32.386 --> 01:10:36.906
too, though, which is interesting was I believe it was California tried to use

01:10:36.906 --> 01:10:41.346
an AI system to do sentencing or I think it was it might have been bail.

01:10:41.626 --> 01:10:45.306
It was either bail or sentencing, one of the two. And the idea was they were

01:10:45.306 --> 01:10:46.746
trying to use it to be less biased.

01:10:47.066 --> 01:10:50.046
They were like, instead of having a human, which is going to use their judgment,

01:10:50.286 --> 01:10:54.386
we're going to have an AI system do it that will be objective that, you know, won't judge.

01:10:55.770 --> 01:10:58.790
And what they found when they audited it was that the system was being racist.

01:10:58.870 --> 01:11:02.290
It was, you know, having harsher penalties against minorities.

01:11:02.510 --> 01:11:07.570
And it comes from the principle of bias of garbage data in garbage outputs,

01:11:07.570 --> 01:11:11.270
because the data that these systems were learning from, again,

01:11:11.410 --> 01:11:15.290
this is why we say AI is very human, is data that we chose to collect.

01:11:15.470 --> 01:11:18.890
It's data that reflects our actions. So it's reflecting us.

01:11:19.090 --> 01:11:23.310
So if we have racist data, we're going to have racist outcomes.

01:11:23.910 --> 01:11:28.550
Yeah, so let me ask this question. So how is data the new oil?

01:11:30.130 --> 01:11:34.830
It's an interesting one because on one hand, I actually reject that idea.

01:11:35.090 --> 01:11:37.390
But the other hand, it is kind of true.

01:11:37.850 --> 01:11:43.030
So data is the new oil, as people like to say, because it's incredibly valuable right now.

01:11:43.230 --> 01:11:47.270
It is the raw resource that allows AI systems to work.

01:11:47.270 --> 01:11:50.550
And it's it's interesting because it both fuels the

01:11:50.550 --> 01:11:53.650
creation of ai system and acts as the gasoline that

01:11:53.650 --> 01:11:56.770
powers them so when you're training an ai system like

01:11:56.770 --> 01:11:59.710
we're talking about there you need the data for it to make its

01:11:59.710 --> 01:12:02.770
inferences from to develop its algorithm but then

01:12:02.770 --> 01:12:07.410
for it to actually act it also needs data coming in so real-time data processing

01:12:07.410 --> 01:12:11.750
it needs you know to be observing something so even like no facial recognition

01:12:11.750 --> 01:12:16.330
the data is the video camera is producing this data which is being interpreted

01:12:16.330 --> 01:12:20.450
by an AI system designed and built from data.

01:12:20.970 --> 01:12:25.550
So data is just so important. Having a rich data set to train from is incredibly

01:12:25.550 --> 01:12:27.070
important and incredibly valuable.

01:12:27.290 --> 01:12:32.090
It's why Google is such a valuable company and is actually far more valuable

01:12:32.090 --> 01:12:36.250
than they show in their balance sheets because they have more data than anybody else in the world.

01:12:36.930 --> 01:12:40.450
And that doesn't come up in their balance sheets anywhere. There's nowhere on

01:12:40.450 --> 01:12:42.630
their financial statements that list the value for that data,

01:12:42.790 --> 01:12:47.170
because we just don't even know how to value it. We just know it's worth a lot.

01:12:48.083 --> 01:12:52.883
The reason I say it's not the new oil, though, is because data and oil are completely

01:12:52.883 --> 01:12:54.963
different in how they act as resources.

01:12:55.603 --> 01:12:58.523
When we talk about oil, oil is non-rival.

01:12:59.263 --> 01:13:03.863
If I have a barrel of oil, only I can burn it. You can't also use it.

01:13:04.103 --> 01:13:07.583
You know, if you want to use it, you have to buy it from me. Only one of us can use it.

01:13:07.903 --> 01:13:12.303
But if I have a hard drive full of data, and we both want to train AIs,

01:13:12.563 --> 01:13:17.083
I can train my AI on the data and hand it over to you and you can train your AI.

01:13:17.083 --> 01:13:19.803
It's not diminished by that so i kind

01:13:19.803 --> 01:13:23.903
of reject this data as a new oil because economically it

01:13:23.903 --> 01:13:27.463
works completely different it's a a fascinating

01:13:27.463 --> 01:13:32.423
situation where when we talk about as oil we make this mistake of kind of this

01:13:32.423 --> 01:13:36.963
idea of why we created economies like capitalist economies of you know we have

01:13:36.963 --> 01:13:40.523
limited resources we need to figure out how to distribute them what's the best

01:13:40.523 --> 01:13:44.803
way to do it so you know we distribute it that way but like with something like

01:13:44.803 --> 01:13:47.283
data there's questions about, well,

01:13:47.523 --> 01:13:50.623
everybody can use it. This could just be a free good.

01:13:50.803 --> 01:13:53.963
It's completely different. And that's something governments are really struggling

01:13:53.963 --> 01:13:58.023
with right now in understanding how we should build data economies.

01:13:58.663 --> 01:14:04.103
So since you mentioned Google, you state that Google search is a farmer's surveillance.

01:14:04.763 --> 01:14:08.283
Why did you feel it was important for your readers to know that?

01:14:08.403 --> 01:14:12.283
Because everybody jokes about that, right? They'll say, oh, well, you know.

01:14:13.370 --> 01:14:16.450
You know, if you put too much information in there, you know,

01:14:16.550 --> 01:14:18.310
they, you know, they spying on you and stuff.

01:14:18.490 --> 01:14:23.810
And then, of course, you know, we'll see whatever we research or whatever.

01:14:24.070 --> 01:14:28.430
Then it's like all of a sudden we start getting ads. So kind of explain how

01:14:28.430 --> 01:14:30.590
Google searches a form of surveillance.

01:14:31.210 --> 01:14:36.890
So it's not actually even just Google search. It's the entire suite of the Google infrastructure.

01:14:37.130 --> 01:14:40.350
So we call Google a surveillance advertising company.

01:14:41.070 --> 01:14:44.570
And you might think that your ads come purely from your Google search.

01:14:45.010 --> 01:14:48.450
But there's this interesting thing. Go to any website. I'm sure if you have

01:14:48.450 --> 01:14:50.430
a website, you might not even realize this.

01:14:50.770 --> 01:14:54.550
If you scroll down to the bottom and look at it, I can't remember the last stat.

01:14:54.670 --> 01:14:58.730
It sounded like 75% of the websites on the internet run off Google Analytics.

01:14:59.550 --> 01:15:04.090
What that means is whenever a user is on your website, Google can see what they're doing.

01:15:04.470 --> 01:15:08.510
All of that is data that they can see as well. They can see those actions along

01:15:08.510 --> 01:15:09.870
with the searches they're making.

01:15:10.350 --> 01:15:13.250
To build a bigger profile on that user.

01:15:14.342 --> 01:15:17.822
And then they use that profile to run through, you know, advertising algorithms.

01:15:18.142 --> 01:15:21.702
But they're creating this knowledge of who you are, which is,

01:15:21.842 --> 01:15:25.822
I think, really important to understand kind of this economic engine that we're

01:15:25.822 --> 01:15:29.222
in right now of surveillance, of that they are surveilling you,

01:15:29.342 --> 01:15:30.562
they're producing data about you.

01:15:30.742 --> 01:15:33.142
And then that is something that they're using to create value,

01:15:33.342 --> 01:15:37.902
whether that's advertising or now we're seeing this data used to create AI systems.

01:15:38.342 --> 01:15:42.802
So I think it's really important to recognize that what's going on here is surveillance

01:15:42.802 --> 01:15:44.862
and to speak about it in that way.

01:15:45.362 --> 01:15:50.642
Because once we kind of recognize that reality, we gain a better ability to

01:15:50.642 --> 01:15:53.182
kind of regulate it and say, how do we want to regulate this?

01:15:53.362 --> 01:15:54.842
How do we feel about this?

01:15:55.062 --> 01:16:00.102
And I think it's important to kind of build an understanding of the power of these systems.

01:16:00.342 --> 01:16:04.562
And I don't want to say, you know, I might be a bit more radical on the privacy side with this.

01:16:04.862 --> 01:16:08.222
Not everybody needs to be. Some people might be more comfortable with this.

01:16:08.322 --> 01:16:12.202
I have family members who know all this information, who are very comfortable with it.

01:16:12.262 --> 01:16:18.802
But I think we need that knowledge to have these conversations and decide what we as a society want.

01:16:19.382 --> 01:16:25.702
Yeah, because you basically make the argument that the legislation that says, okay,

01:16:26.002 --> 01:16:32.682
well, you can opt out of putting in your personal data is not even really scratching

01:16:32.682 --> 01:16:37.802
the surface as far as how these companies like, you know,

01:16:38.042 --> 01:16:43.082
Google and I guess AWS, how they can get information.

01:16:43.082 --> 01:16:47.742
They don't necessarily need your personal data to get the information they need

01:16:47.742 --> 01:16:50.962
to cater to or market to you.

01:16:52.126 --> 01:16:55.526
Yeah, and that really is an interesting one because there's two sides to this.

01:16:55.926 --> 01:16:59.626
One is that in the old economy, which was surveillance advertising,

01:17:00.606 --> 01:17:03.186
they did need a certain level of personal data.

01:17:03.386 --> 01:17:04.566
And that's why we started regulating

01:17:04.566 --> 01:17:07.946
it. Because they needed to know stuff about you to market to you.

01:17:08.406 --> 01:17:14.446
In the new AI economy, the valuable data is what was not that valuable in that economy.

01:17:14.686 --> 01:17:16.906
The valuable data is just like everything.

01:17:17.186 --> 01:17:20.786
They're just trying to sweep up everything. personal data is interesting but

01:17:20.786 --> 01:17:23.626
it doesn't cover everything so now they're

01:17:23.626 --> 01:17:26.946
kind of trying to segment off and being like hey we'll let you pass privacy laws

01:17:26.946 --> 01:17:30.286
that focus on personal data so you can feel safe as long

01:17:30.286 --> 01:17:34.006
as you let us have all this other stuff that like personal data

01:17:34.006 --> 01:17:36.846
just means that they can't identify you from it it could

01:17:36.846 --> 01:17:40.106
still be like you know your heart rate from your smartwatch

01:17:40.106 --> 01:17:43.446
there are countries in the world where that's not considered personal data you

01:17:43.446 --> 01:17:46.186
know what you're doing on websites they'll just

01:17:46.186 --> 01:17:48.946
cut off well david's name isn't attached to

01:17:48.946 --> 01:17:52.046
it so you know we can use this information what

01:17:52.046 --> 01:17:54.906
he did because they're not looking to market to me they're looking

01:17:54.906 --> 01:18:00.886
to aggregate that into ai systems an interesting one is how that has moved into

01:18:00.886 --> 01:18:05.546
marketing algorithms a really interesting specific one that i worked on was

01:18:05.546 --> 01:18:09.506
a proposal by google where they were like you know what we're going to stop

01:18:09.506 --> 01:18:12.746
collecting all this personal data we're going to stop doing that And instead,

01:18:12.866 --> 01:18:16.226
they came up with an algorithm that would basically hop into your computer,

01:18:16.466 --> 01:18:18.386
I think it was like once a week.

01:18:18.906 --> 01:18:23.786
Look at your last five URLs you had visited, and from that, create a profile

01:18:23.786 --> 01:18:26.726
of who you were based on just your last five searches.

01:18:26.726 --> 01:18:29.666
That was far more accurate at predicting

01:18:29.666 --> 01:18:34.346
like who you were what you wanted to see what your feelings were that period

01:18:34.346 --> 01:18:39.586
of time then they had ever got from doing like this massive personalized version

01:18:39.586 --> 01:18:43.566
where they had to collect all this data which just shows the power of ai there

01:18:43.566 --> 01:18:48.666
will ai create a new luddite fallacy in our society.

01:18:49.992 --> 01:18:54.552
It's an interesting proposition because the Luddite fallacy,

01:18:54.592 --> 01:18:59.552
right, is this idea that, well, the fallacy is the idea that the,

01:18:59.712 --> 01:19:03.932
or I need to hop back and remember which one specifically the Luddite fallacy is.

01:19:04.232 --> 01:19:08.012
Because the Luddites are the people who rejected the technology or are seen

01:19:08.012 --> 01:19:11.392
as being the ones who, you know, rejected the technology.

01:19:11.392 --> 01:19:17.692
But then, oh, I'm trying to work through the economic fallacy in my head.

01:19:17.692 --> 01:19:20.932
Because yeah the fallacy is that they rejected new

01:19:20.932 --> 01:19:24.372
technologies of the industrial revolution and didn't recognize

01:19:24.372 --> 01:19:27.412
that those technologies would help them in the

01:19:27.412 --> 01:19:33.552
long run overall you know would raise economic standings it is also based off

01:19:33.552 --> 01:19:38.032
a misunderstanding of the luddites that the luddites they didn't reject the

01:19:38.032 --> 01:19:42.312
technology they were actually fine with it they rejected how it was being integrated

01:19:42.312 --> 01:19:46.192
into society and what they were saying is that this is destroying our communities,

01:19:46.852 --> 01:19:48.972
So the Luddites were mainly skilled artisans.

01:19:49.312 --> 01:19:51.752
So when they saw the technology come in, they're like, whoa,

01:19:51.932 --> 01:19:55.212
we can produce so much better stuff now. We can make much better products for

01:19:55.212 --> 01:19:56.652
people and we can mass produce it.

01:19:56.852 --> 01:20:00.712
But the factory owner said, no, we're firing all the artisans and we're mass

01:20:00.712 --> 01:20:03.372
producing cheap things and we're going to get more profit from that.

01:20:04.012 --> 01:20:07.252
That's what the Luddites were upset about. They saw it as this destruction of

01:20:07.252 --> 01:20:11.432
agricultural work, the forcing of people into cities, into factories.

01:20:11.692 --> 01:20:16.712
So what they were more concerned about was a quality of living and a quality of life in their time.

01:20:17.782 --> 01:20:20.842
So I think what we could see is, yeah, that rise again, where,

01:20:21.202 --> 01:20:23.922
you know, we see it right now, like with the economy, right,

01:20:24.082 --> 01:20:27.702
where that line's going up, the stock market's going up.

01:20:27.822 --> 01:20:30.482
And this is kind of like what that fallacy is talking about.

01:20:31.142 --> 01:20:34.762
You know, look, everything's going great. Economic performance is awesome.

01:20:34.942 --> 01:20:38.402
But that doesn't account for the lived experiences of people within it.

01:20:38.642 --> 01:20:43.262
It doesn't account for the fact that the Luddites were experiencing a massive trauma.

01:20:43.382 --> 01:20:46.362
They were having their livelihoods and their jobs taken from them.

01:20:46.362 --> 01:20:48.202
And that's what they were pushing back against.

01:20:48.402 --> 01:20:52.582
They were saying, we need to do this in a humane way. We approve of this technology.

01:20:52.582 --> 01:20:55.062
We agree it can create massive economic benefit.

01:20:55.482 --> 01:20:58.622
We need to implement it in a way that's humane. And I think,

01:20:58.722 --> 01:21:03.302
you know, with AI, we do risk dealing with the same problems there because,

01:21:03.322 --> 01:21:06.862
you know, people are like, oh, it's going to be so much better for productivity, all of this.

01:21:06.862 --> 01:21:10.102
But you have situations where you know a 40

01:21:10.102 --> 01:21:12.962
year old father who's been in a

01:21:12.962 --> 01:21:15.962
field you know has his education might get

01:21:15.962 --> 01:21:18.782
laid off and they'll say sorry you're redundant now ai can

01:21:18.782 --> 01:21:23.702
do this what is that person going to do you know they're so far into their career

01:21:23.702 --> 01:21:27.782
retooling is difficult do they go back to school do they accept a job that's

01:21:27.782 --> 01:21:31.922
now much under their salary of what they had before and we've seen this happen

01:21:31.922 --> 01:21:36.322
with the rust belt states in the u.s right and we've seen the effect this has

01:21:36.322 --> 01:21:37.962
on people when they are de-skilled,

01:21:38.162 --> 01:21:41.202
when you have these massive automation capabilities.

01:21:41.502 --> 01:21:43.642
And I think that's something we really need to be worried about.

01:21:43.782 --> 01:21:48.442
So in a political sense, one of the things I really advocate for is we don't

01:21:48.442 --> 01:21:51.162
know how difficult this transition is going to be.

01:21:51.302 --> 01:21:57.042
We still don't know how big the AI job transformation is going to be. We know it will exist.

01:21:58.419 --> 01:22:02.479
We need to prepare for that worst case scenario. We need to prepare and build

01:22:02.479 --> 01:22:06.499
social safety nets to build understandings that like if people are being de-skilled,

01:22:06.539 --> 01:22:08.559
you know, in their 40s, how are we going to deal with that?

01:22:08.839 --> 01:22:11.159
That'll be different than people who just went to university,

01:22:11.159 --> 01:22:15.999
got a business degree, paid $100,000 for it, you know, have now had basically

01:22:15.999 --> 01:22:17.179
all their knowledge wiped out.

01:22:17.659 --> 01:22:21.339
What do we do about those people? These are questions we need to be asking to

01:22:21.339 --> 01:22:26.679
figure out like what systems could we have that reduce the harm to those people

01:22:26.679 --> 01:22:27.819
from that because that harm is real.

01:22:28.419 --> 01:22:31.899
That harm has massive social effects, massive psychological effects,

01:22:32.079 --> 01:22:34.079
and very long-term effects.

01:22:34.079 --> 01:22:39.019
As someone who personally was affected by the 2008 recession with my family,

01:22:39.279 --> 01:22:43.499
I can speak to being a kid that lives in one of those families that experiences that.

01:22:43.839 --> 01:22:49.639
As we've seen from the Rust Belt states, we can see the political shift it can cause.

01:22:49.739 --> 01:22:52.119
We can see the resentment that it can cause.

01:22:52.759 --> 01:22:57.019
So I think it's something that we as a society need to be preparing for and

01:22:57.019 --> 01:23:01.279
need to be asking difficult questions about, yes, AI is beneficial for society.

01:23:01.419 --> 01:23:04.059
There's no stopping the train. It's left the station.

01:23:04.579 --> 01:23:10.759
How do we make sure it runs smoothly? Yeah, because Nike just, for example,

01:23:11.799 --> 01:23:17.259
made a decision that they were going to lay off like 700-some employees and

01:23:17.259 --> 01:23:20.259
they were saying that AI was going to handle.

01:23:21.357 --> 01:23:27.277
Stuff that they will handle. And I guess it's going to be a hybrid that some

01:23:27.277 --> 01:23:29.557
of the mundane things AI can do,

01:23:29.797 --> 01:23:34.397
but some of the things that require human touch, they'll stay,

01:23:34.617 --> 01:23:36.577
which I'm trying to envision in my mind.

01:23:36.737 --> 01:23:42.997
It's like, okay, well, as far as ringing up the items, AI will do that some kind of way.

01:23:43.517 --> 01:23:49.257
But as far as the sales pitch and getting you to buy these particular shoes

01:23:49.257 --> 01:23:53.397
or whatever, you still need that human creativity to make that happen.

01:23:53.757 --> 01:23:58.617
I don't know what their plan is and how that's going to work,

01:23:58.617 --> 01:24:05.397
but that just highlights to me what you just addressed in that.

01:24:05.737 --> 01:24:12.017
A couple more questions. What particular application for AI are you most excited about?

01:24:12.697 --> 01:24:17.257
I think I'm really excited about it in accessibility and healthcare.

01:24:17.617 --> 01:24:21.557
I think those are two areas. I mean, right now, healthcare really is the big one.

01:24:22.057 --> 01:24:25.817
And the major reason I'm really excited about that is not just the advances

01:24:25.817 --> 01:24:30.797
that we are making, but also the structure of the healthcare system and why

01:24:30.797 --> 01:24:33.937
it's actually a really well-structured space for automation.

01:24:34.317 --> 01:24:39.177
Because the advances are amazing in reading radiology scans.

01:24:39.557 --> 01:24:44.417
And I was just at a rural health care center in Saskatchewan that's implementing

01:24:44.417 --> 01:24:49.657
AI to help bring accessible health care to rural communities that are run in

01:24:49.657 --> 01:24:50.797
centralized locations.

01:24:51.297 --> 01:24:55.757
Just amazing technologies here. And what I think is interesting about it is

01:24:55.757 --> 01:25:00.157
when we're applying it in these situations, it's about expanding.

01:25:00.477 --> 01:25:03.317
It's about expanding the health care offerings we already have,

01:25:03.537 --> 01:25:07.077
expanding them to more regions, trying to bring them to people that don't already have them.

01:25:07.237 --> 01:25:10.397
It tends to be less about replacing something with a worse product.

01:25:11.571 --> 01:25:14.511
So we end up seeing this situation where you know

01:25:14.511 --> 01:25:18.611
because it's heavily regulated because health care is incredibly heavily regulated

01:25:18.611 --> 01:25:24.211
you don't see you see more kind of skepticism and you see more testing of systems

01:25:24.211 --> 01:25:28.231
before they're implemented because the cost of messing up is so much higher

01:25:28.231 --> 01:25:33.831
and the regulatory cost of messing up is very high so you see much better systems being used,

01:25:34.431 --> 01:25:39.471
on top of that we don't tend to see true automation and what i mean in that

01:25:39.471 --> 01:25:41.011
sense is if you are a doctor.

01:25:41.951 --> 01:25:45.311
And so if you're a radiologist, let's say, and they bring in,

01:25:45.391 --> 01:25:47.911
you know, an AI technology to read scans for you.

01:25:48.451 --> 01:25:51.831
In other fields, as we see, like maybe with Nike, they bring in that technology

01:25:51.831 --> 01:25:54.591
and they go, lay off, lay off the person.

01:25:55.131 --> 01:25:59.651
We are in a doctor shortage. Doctors already are not doing all the work they

01:25:59.651 --> 01:26:01.751
could be doing. There's so much more that could be done.

01:26:02.071 --> 01:26:04.751
So when you bring in something like this that can read the scans,

01:26:04.951 --> 01:26:06.311
you're liberating their time.

01:26:06.671 --> 01:26:10.451
You're giving them more time to engage in other activities. So now maybe that

01:26:10.451 --> 01:26:12.451
radiologist will treat more patients.

01:26:12.731 --> 01:26:16.891
Maybe that radiologist will spend more time on research, helping to design new

01:26:16.891 --> 01:26:19.911
cancer detection tools or new cancer treatment tools.

01:26:20.411 --> 01:26:25.731
So I think the healthcare implications are massive and I think really exciting

01:26:25.731 --> 01:26:29.971
both in the technological developments and in just the structure that the healthcare

01:26:29.971 --> 01:26:33.871
system has to be able to implement them in very humane ways.

01:26:34.811 --> 01:26:37.611
What do you want the readers to take from this book?

01:26:38.614 --> 01:26:42.374
Really want this book to be a starting point for readers i want you to start

01:26:42.374 --> 01:26:46.514
here and not end here i want to be a place that introduces you to the things

01:26:46.514 --> 01:26:49.134
you need to know but also that's empowering,

01:26:49.774 --> 01:26:55.094
because i think a lot of talk about ai is very doom and gloom i talked before about you know,

01:26:55.554 --> 01:26:59.574
that i felt like my friends were seeing not great information the other side

01:26:59.574 --> 01:27:04.454
of that coin was information that was just you know doomerism that was just

01:27:04.454 --> 01:27:07.474
you know ai is going to take over where AI is going to destroy everything,

01:27:07.634 --> 01:27:08.874
it's this all-powerful force.

01:27:09.574 --> 01:27:11.594
I want people to come out with a bit of optimism.

01:27:12.814 --> 01:27:16.134
Or optimism might be the wrong word. The last chapter is called Hope,

01:27:16.274 --> 01:27:18.674
and I think there's a difference between hope and optimism.

01:27:19.234 --> 01:27:21.754
And hope is the belief that there's still a good path forward.

01:27:22.074 --> 01:27:23.774
Hope is the last thing we lose.

01:27:24.254 --> 01:27:28.214
And I hope that people come out with a sense of hope, not only that the future

01:27:28.214 --> 01:27:32.174
with AI can be better, but hope that they can make a difference,

01:27:32.374 --> 01:27:36.674
and hope that they can understand it, a realization that we get to shape this future.

01:27:37.094 --> 01:27:40.014
And it's not one person who gets to make the decisions here.

01:27:40.254 --> 01:27:43.594
The future comes from us. The future comes from democracy.

01:27:43.974 --> 01:27:48.634
The future comes from us working together and demanding a better future.

01:27:48.854 --> 01:27:52.474
So I hope you gain the tools from this book to advocate for yourself.

01:27:52.814 --> 01:27:57.154
You gain the tools from this book to be able to speak to your own experiences

01:27:57.154 --> 01:27:59.374
and to be able to ask for more.

01:27:59.514 --> 01:28:03.494
And you become a part of this great conversation, which is, I think,

01:28:03.534 --> 01:28:05.354
the most important conversation of our time.

01:28:05.734 --> 01:28:12.514
So it's funny you bring up hope because one of the questions I'm asking every

01:28:12.514 --> 01:28:16.634
guest as we close out is to finish this sentence.

01:28:17.154 --> 01:28:19.474
I have hope because...

01:28:21.231 --> 01:28:25.251
I have hope because there's still many decisions left to be made.

01:28:26.111 --> 01:28:30.531
Okay. All right. It's succinct and to the point.

01:28:31.071 --> 01:28:35.011
David, how can people get this book, Artificially Intelligent,

01:28:35.331 --> 01:28:39.431
A Very Human Story, and how can they reach out to you?

01:28:40.071 --> 01:28:43.571
So you can find Artificially Intelligent anywhere books are sold.

01:28:43.571 --> 01:28:49.331
You can go to your local bookshop, Barnes & Noble, order it online through bookshops.org.

01:28:49.331 --> 01:28:52.711
It's a great place if you're looking to order it. supports local bookstores.

01:28:53.271 --> 01:28:56.911
Get it through Barnes & Noble, get it through Amazon. You can get it directly

01:28:56.911 --> 01:28:59.351
through my publisher, University of Toronto Press.

01:28:59.551 --> 01:29:03.851
I think they have a big sale on right now actually to celebrate their birthday.

01:29:04.131 --> 01:29:05.251
So you could go check that out.

01:29:05.591 --> 01:29:08.451
And you can find me at davideliot.org.

01:29:08.951 --> 01:29:13.351
Eliot has one L and one T in it. I will be spelling that out for the rest of my life.

01:29:13.631 --> 01:29:17.471
So davideliot1l1t.org. I have an email form on there.

01:29:17.591 --> 01:29:21.711
If you want to send me an email, get in touch with me and I hope to pick up

01:29:21.711 --> 01:29:22.971
the book. I hope you enjoy it.

01:29:23.131 --> 01:29:26.671
I hope you join the conversation and thank you so much for having me on today, Eric.

01:29:27.251 --> 01:29:31.631
Well, David Eliot, it was an honor to have you on and I can relate,

01:29:31.851 --> 01:29:39.031
you know, the way I spell Erik seems to be unique to some people instead of with the C is with the K,

01:29:39.571 --> 01:29:44.091
but you know, even, even my AI, when it does the transcript.

01:29:44.351 --> 01:29:46.691
I have to go in and edit that all the time.

01:29:47.211 --> 01:29:51.291
Oh no. But, but David, I'm, I'm really glad that we had this discussion and

01:29:51.291 --> 01:29:52.451
I appreciate you coming on.

01:29:52.931 --> 01:29:56.511
Perfect. Thank you very much. All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:30:08.952 --> 01:30:13.872
All right. And we are back. So I want to thank Kaylee Jade

01:30:14.252 --> 01:30:17.752
Peterson and David Eliot for coming on the show.

01:30:19.152 --> 01:30:23.752
You know, I wish Kaylee well. She is, you know,

01:30:24.812 --> 01:30:30.772
been really steadfast and has made it a crusade to make sure that progressive

01:30:30.772 --> 01:30:35.552
voices are heard and are organized in Idaho.

01:30:35.552 --> 01:30:38.612
And I know a lot of people are like, really?

01:30:39.552 --> 01:30:41.712
Is that really a worthwhile endeavor?

01:30:42.792 --> 01:30:48.352
And yes, it is, especially for her and her family, because she lives there.

01:30:48.972 --> 01:30:57.792
And I really hope, I think that if she gets in, she's going to be a positive voice for us.

01:30:58.992 --> 01:31:05.032
And it's definitely going to be better than what they got up there already.

01:31:05.212 --> 01:31:07.812
So I wish her well. You can...

01:31:09.150 --> 01:31:13.790
Just Google her, and if you want to support her, go ahead and do that.

01:31:14.290 --> 01:31:18.150
And then David Eliot, young man, very insightful young man,

01:31:18.310 --> 01:31:23.290
who basically has written his book, Artificially Intelligent.

01:31:24.070 --> 01:31:28.050
And it is really, I learned a lot of stuff.

01:31:28.050 --> 01:31:35.510
Even though he is a sociologist by training, and he's done a lot of research

01:31:35.510 --> 01:31:41.410
from that capacity dealing with artificial intelligence and its impact and all that.

01:31:41.550 --> 01:31:43.850
So he's not a computer guy.

01:31:44.270 --> 01:31:46.050
But just like Dr.

01:31:46.950 --> 01:31:57.750
Lubin, who came on before, brings a particular perspective, especially from the human side.

01:31:57.750 --> 01:32:06.310
But I learned a lot from him as far as like the origin of the word algorithm, you know.

01:32:07.010 --> 01:32:10.750
Yeah, I got to get that book. It's pretty. And as a matter of fact,

01:32:10.870 --> 01:32:16.070
I mentioned to, if you're in the interview, remember, I mentioned Dr. Lubin's work.

01:32:16.270 --> 01:32:18.910
And he was, David was scribbling that down.

01:32:19.290 --> 01:32:23.350
And so, Dr. Lubin, I think you're going to have one more person buying your

01:32:23.350 --> 01:32:27.910
book for sure. Yes, I just want to thank them for coming on,

01:32:28.290 --> 01:32:33.370
especially during this moment that we are in.

01:32:34.250 --> 01:32:42.550
So as I'm recording this, a lot of things have happened in Minnesota over the last week.

01:32:43.881 --> 01:32:50.261
You know, this is a weekly show, so we kind of, as recording stuff and all that,

01:32:51.201 --> 01:32:57.601
things happen right around the time we're recording or I miss it because I'm recording.

01:32:57.841 --> 01:33:03.581
But a young man got shot, same age as Renee Good. His name was Alex Pretti.

01:33:03.921 --> 01:33:07.221
Alex was an ICU nurse.

01:33:08.341 --> 01:33:13.421
And having part of my job when I worked for the Fulton County Sheriff's Office,

01:33:13.881 --> 01:33:21.281
I was assigned to Grady Hospital, and I would have to sit on patients that were sent to ICU.

01:33:22.021 --> 01:33:25.401
That is a very, very diligent job.

01:33:25.621 --> 01:33:33.381
It's not as hectic as being down in the emergency room, but it's still very,

01:33:33.501 --> 01:33:38.241
very stressful, very tenuous situation because these people made it from the

01:33:38.241 --> 01:33:40.001
emergency room to the ICU.

01:33:41.640 --> 01:33:46.500
Their life is still in the balance. And so these people have to be very sensitive,

01:33:47.020 --> 01:33:52.240
and very professional and very aware of what's going on with the patients they're assigned.

01:33:53.860 --> 01:33:59.100
And there's a video that has gone around of Mr.

01:33:59.220 --> 01:34:07.440
Pretti giving basically a eulogy to a veteran who died at the VA hospital in

01:34:07.440 --> 01:34:09.620
Minnesota where he worked.

01:34:11.640 --> 01:34:15.800
You know, that's just kind of a glimpse of what this young man was.

01:34:15.980 --> 01:34:18.960
He was, you know, he was an avid outdoorsman.

01:34:19.220 --> 01:34:22.000
He liked to hike and bike and all that stuff.

01:34:23.220 --> 01:34:31.320
But he was a pretty active protester of ICE because another video has come out.

01:34:31.440 --> 01:34:33.160
And again, these people are so dumb.

01:34:34.280 --> 01:34:38.840
And I'm kind of like Tiffany Cross now. You know, everybody else is trying to

01:34:38.840 --> 01:34:45.300
be polite and, you know, not say direct things like,

01:34:45.540 --> 01:34:49.860
you know, she'll get on CNN and just say, you're lying. Right.

01:34:50.420 --> 01:34:53.600
And, you know, saying, well, I don't agree with that or whatever.

01:34:53.820 --> 01:34:57.360
No, she just come out and say it. And that's I think that's the way you have

01:34:57.360 --> 01:35:03.060
to treat these people, because they take advantage of kindness.

01:35:03.940 --> 01:35:07.880
Right. They take advantage of civility. because they have none.

01:35:08.520 --> 01:35:13.820
And, you know, so they're bulls in the China shop for real, right?

01:35:14.460 --> 01:35:20.100
But they're also stupid people, which usually kind of goes hand in hand with brashness.

01:35:20.840 --> 01:35:25.340
And so they released a video talking about.

01:35:26.633 --> 01:35:30.293
Well, not talking about, but it was a video showing Mr.

01:35:30.433 --> 01:35:35.293
Pretti like 11 days before he got shot at another protest.

01:35:36.253 --> 01:35:42.753
And obviously there was some exchange between one of the ICE or Border Patrol

01:35:42.753 --> 01:35:46.253
or one of the federal people that was out there.

01:35:46.653 --> 01:35:50.033
And he didn't take too kindly to it.

01:35:50.213 --> 01:35:56.713
He walked up to the car. I think fluids were exchanged, like spitting.

01:35:57.873 --> 01:36:02.873
Then he kicked the taillight out, right, of the car.

01:36:04.053 --> 01:36:07.553
And somebody said, wow, he's got to be pretty strong. You know,

01:36:07.953 --> 01:36:11.333
cold weather kind of helps, makes things brittle.

01:36:12.433 --> 01:36:16.173
So when he kicked the taillight out of the car, the officers swarmed him and

01:36:16.173 --> 01:36:19.873
all that, took him down. But he didn't get arrested.

01:36:20.853 --> 01:36:23.613
They just kind of subdued him.

01:36:24.653 --> 01:36:31.673
And then when he stood up, you could see that he had a gun holstered.

01:36:32.853 --> 01:36:36.733
Didn't take the gun from him. They almost acted like they didn't see it.

01:36:37.693 --> 01:36:45.113
And, you know, they got up, they walked away, got in their SUV with a damaged

01:36:45.113 --> 01:36:46.213
taillight and drove off.

01:36:47.733 --> 01:36:51.993
So obviously it was a different group of people that Mr.

01:36:52.153 --> 01:37:00.973
Pretti encountered 11 days later when he was recording an action that they were

01:37:00.973 --> 01:37:05.813
taking out according to Secretary Noem, which basically is,

01:37:06.173 --> 01:37:11.453
you got to fact check her breathing, right? Because she lies that much.

01:37:11.893 --> 01:37:17.753
She said that they were about to arrest a child pedophile.

01:37:17.953 --> 01:37:20.473
And like some comedian said, is there a difference?

01:37:21.333 --> 01:37:22.893
Is there any other kind of pedophile?

01:37:24.253 --> 01:37:28.273
But they it was this person

01:37:28.273 --> 01:37:33.313
they person of interest they were after somebody that had been accused of being

01:37:33.313 --> 01:37:39.733
pedophile and so the story that they're telling is that he impeded now initially

01:37:39.733 --> 01:37:45.913
they said that he came in had the gun drawn was basically doing his best Edward G.

01:37:46.053 --> 01:37:51.173
Robinson Jimmy Cagney imitation and say I'm gonna take you coppers out you see

01:37:51.173 --> 01:37:56.573
I mean just to the extreme, right, when it was totally opposite.

01:37:56.933 --> 01:38:00.393
There was a woman who was beside Mr.

01:38:00.593 --> 01:38:05.353
Pretti who was also videotaping, and obviously she was saying some things,

01:38:05.593 --> 01:38:09.213
and one of the officers got offended and pushed her down in the snow.

01:38:10.799 --> 01:38:15.859
Mr. Pretti went to go pick her up. And in the process of picking her up,

01:38:16.219 --> 01:38:20.979
another officer came and pepper sprayed her and Mr. Pretti.

01:38:22.779 --> 01:38:25.939
And needless to say, he didn't take too kindly to that.

01:38:26.199 --> 01:38:34.199
But before he really could do anything, they grabbed him and started beating

01:38:34.199 --> 01:38:36.799
him and holding him down.

01:38:36.799 --> 01:38:42.719
And then one of the officers saw the gun this time.

01:38:42.919 --> 01:38:47.159
One officer saw the gun in his holster and pulled it out.

01:38:49.139 --> 01:38:56.799
Now, the audio is terrible, so you can't really hear anything but the gunshots, clearly.

01:38:58.239 --> 01:39:03.539
But I'm sure the officer said something to the effect is, I have the gun.

01:39:03.539 --> 01:39:12.819
Now, I am believing that the officers heard the word gun.

01:39:14.119 --> 01:39:17.199
And at first I thought it was...

01:39:19.666 --> 01:39:23.206
Thought it was like somebody accidentally might have, you know,

01:39:23.326 --> 01:39:26.286
fired off a round and all that commotion and chaos.

01:39:27.226 --> 01:39:31.686
And, you know, and then more shots were fired. That wasn't the case.

01:39:32.506 --> 01:39:38.646
It was like Mr. Pretti got up or he looked like he was about to get up and officers

01:39:38.646 --> 01:39:41.106
shot him directly in the back.

01:39:42.066 --> 01:39:48.606
And not once, not twice, but four times. And as he was rolling over from that,

01:39:49.006 --> 01:39:52.166
he got shot five or six more times.

01:39:52.826 --> 01:39:56.786
I'm still waiting on the autopsy to see how many bullets actually hit him,

01:39:56.886 --> 01:39:58.666
but at least 10 shots were fired.

01:39:59.246 --> 01:40:01.366
So basically they killed him.

01:40:02.706 --> 01:40:10.126
And, you know, the scenario I gave would probably be the best scenario they

01:40:10.126 --> 01:40:11.186
would have in their defense.

01:40:12.526 --> 01:40:21.126
But, you know, even if the person had a weapon, once you have them subdued like

01:40:21.126 --> 01:40:26.086
that, you know, if you have their arms, they can't shoot you.

01:40:26.526 --> 01:40:32.546
They can't. I have yet to see a human being who is being held down by police.

01:40:33.106 --> 01:40:37.166
Both of their arms are held down and they're able to shoot somebody.

01:40:37.166 --> 01:40:39.926
I have never seen that happen.

01:40:41.442 --> 01:40:45.322
In the wildest Ripley, believe it or not, moment. I have never seen that happen.

01:40:45.682 --> 01:40:53.242
And so for that officer to fire the weapon, again, just bad policing.

01:40:54.162 --> 01:41:00.822
And the way that he did it, he's going to get a murder charge if the state brings

01:41:00.822 --> 01:41:02.222
charges, and they should.

01:41:03.922 --> 01:41:11.122
He might get off with manslaughter, but he shot an unarmed man at that point.

01:41:12.022 --> 01:41:17.542
A person that was in control, a person that was subdued.

01:41:18.522 --> 01:41:22.082
The only thing they should have done at that point was put handcuffs on them,

01:41:22.422 --> 01:41:23.622
if that was their intention.

01:41:26.162 --> 01:41:30.842
So there's that. And then, you know, we've been trying to keep y'all abreast

01:41:30.842 --> 01:41:33.442
of what happened with, you know,

01:41:34.462 --> 01:41:38.202
Nekima Levy Armstrong, who's been on the show a couple of times and a couple

01:41:38.202 --> 01:41:43.442
of other folks that had organized a protest at a church where the leader of

01:41:43.442 --> 01:41:47.802
ICE in the state of Minnesota is a pastor.

01:41:48.502 --> 01:41:52.622
And we know that she got arrested and then they used AI.

01:41:53.122 --> 01:41:57.922
It seemed like she was crying when she got arrested, which wasn't the case.

01:41:58.242 --> 01:42:02.462
Thank goodness for cameras everywhere because the camera in her apartment complex

01:42:02.462 --> 01:42:08.222
showed somebody that was not crying and the cameras at the courthouse.

01:42:08.922 --> 01:42:15.882
At no time was she boo-hooing like they depicted and put on the actual White House website, right?

01:42:17.155 --> 01:42:22.455
So she got released. Her, all three of them got released.

01:42:23.095 --> 01:42:28.075
Now, as I'm recording, two of the reporters that were there,

01:42:28.255 --> 01:42:36.415
Georgia Fort, who is an independent journalist, like I said in the intro, out of Minnesota.

01:42:36.795 --> 01:42:42.435
She was like a local anchor there and basically started her own news service.

01:42:42.435 --> 01:42:50.495
And, of course, she's been covering, you know, any and everything dealing with

01:42:50.495 --> 01:42:57.275
the protests and all that, and she knows Nekima.

01:42:57.955 --> 01:43:07.615
And so she was at the first press conference Nekima and the coalition had right

01:43:07.615 --> 01:43:10.435
after Renee Good got killed.

01:43:12.035 --> 01:43:14.275
And, you know, just been keeping track.

01:43:14.475 --> 01:43:19.195
He's been keeping track ever since ICE showed up in force in Minneapolis.

01:43:19.895 --> 01:43:25.875
And so Don Lemon has, you know, he just gets on a plane and he goes wherever he wants to go.

01:43:26.255 --> 01:43:29.875
If he's not doing man-in-the-street stuff, he's going where the action is.

01:43:29.975 --> 01:43:31.495
So, of course, he was in Minneapolis.

01:43:32.135 --> 01:43:34.335
He got wind of this protest.

01:43:34.995 --> 01:43:38.075
Well, he got wind that some activity was getting ready to happen.

01:43:38.915 --> 01:43:44.615
And he kind of explains that if you follow him. He explained what was going to happen.

01:43:45.355 --> 01:43:49.575
He knew, had no idea what they were going to do. They just knew some kind of

01:43:49.575 --> 01:43:50.675
action was going to take place.

01:43:51.095 --> 01:43:57.275
And so when Nekima and the group went in to protest, he and George and everybody else.

01:43:59.519 --> 01:44:04.579
Journalists that were covering it went in with him. And, you know, Don,

01:44:04.979 --> 01:44:10.599
being the aggressive person he is, he basically kind of got the pastor to the

01:44:10.599 --> 01:44:14.639
side and who was the guest pastor, I guess, or the assistant pastor.

01:44:14.879 --> 01:44:16.379
He wasn't the guy that was over ice.

01:44:17.119 --> 01:44:21.739
But, you know, he started interviewing him. And then he interviewed like two

01:44:21.739 --> 01:44:26.199
or three parishioners of the church, you know, afterwards. And,

01:44:26.279 --> 01:44:28.979
of course, he interviewed some of the protesters.

01:44:30.779 --> 01:44:38.679
So somehow, Ms. Dillon, who is over the Civil Rights Division of the Department

01:44:38.679 --> 01:44:43.939
of Justice now, which is clearly an oxymoron in the Trump universe,

01:44:44.939 --> 01:44:50.739
her and Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, decided Don Lemon was the ringleader.

01:44:52.119 --> 01:44:56.099
And so they decided to go after him,

01:44:56.959 --> 01:45:00.059
and then Georgia, they went after and then

01:45:00.059 --> 01:45:05.899
they arrested Georgia as well because initially they couldn't get any charges

01:45:05.899 --> 01:45:11.999
when they got Nekima and the other organizers they couldn't get an indictment

01:45:11.999 --> 01:45:19.419
on Don and I guess they kept working on it and doctored it up I'm sure Pam was putting pressure on Ms.

01:45:19.519 --> 01:45:21.779
Dillon to come up with something.

01:45:22.419 --> 01:45:32.199
And so they got a grand jury to indict them, federal grand jury to indict them, and they arrested them.

01:45:34.119 --> 01:45:39.239
And, you know, there were other journalists there, but you arrested the two

01:45:39.239 --> 01:45:41.359
black journalists who were there.

01:45:42.739 --> 01:45:48.719
So no coincidence, right? That's just, is what it is. You arrested the two black

01:45:48.719 --> 01:45:50.399
journalists that were there. Thank you.

01:45:51.508 --> 01:45:53.908
They must have had something to do with it because the protesters,

01:45:54.168 --> 01:45:57.948
the majority of them were black. So they must have had something to do with it, right?

01:45:58.868 --> 01:46:05.248
So, you know, meanwhile, in D.C., Donald Trump is,

01:46:05.548 --> 01:46:12.788
you know, was attending a grand opening or premiere of his wife's documentary,

01:46:12.788 --> 01:46:23.248
which was basically a $40 million bribe from Amazon to the Trumps to stay in their good graces.

01:46:24.915 --> 01:46:32.155
It cost $40 million to do a documentary on, I think it's like 10 days before the election.

01:46:36.155 --> 01:46:46.535
Anyway, $40 million on a documentary. Anyway, so once they heard that Mr.

01:46:46.635 --> 01:46:50.235
Pretty was shot, they didn't think about, well, maybe we can move it down today.

01:46:50.275 --> 01:46:52.055
Oh, no, the show must go on.

01:46:52.615 --> 01:46:57.895
It didn't happen here in D.C. It happened in Minneapolis, so why should we care?

01:46:57.995 --> 01:47:01.215
Now, the NBA stopped an actual basketball game.

01:47:01.495 --> 01:47:05.495
That didn't come from the Timberwolves. That didn't come from the visiting team.

01:47:05.615 --> 01:47:09.495
That came from the league. The league said, yeah, no, we're not playing a game

01:47:09.495 --> 01:47:11.195
tonight in Minneapolis.

01:47:11.555 --> 01:47:16.735
The NBA canceled a game, but the first lady of the United States couldn't put

01:47:16.735 --> 01:47:18.775
off a premiere for one day.

01:47:19.715 --> 01:47:22.935
I mean, those are the kind of people we're dealing with. It's just,

01:47:23.215 --> 01:47:29.435
it's to the point now where it's beyond being angry about it,

01:47:29.615 --> 01:47:34.635
which I encourage people to still be angry, but it's really ridiculous.

01:47:35.575 --> 01:47:42.555
It's, you know, there's anger and then there's frustration added to that.

01:47:42.675 --> 01:47:47.915
And the ridiculous part creates the frustration because we don't seem to have

01:47:47.915 --> 01:47:54.195
any real leadership, at least leadership that has backbone, right?

01:47:54.615 --> 01:47:58.875
You know, and there's some people I don't have high expectations for, like Henry Cuellar.

01:47:58.875 --> 01:48:04.855
Or, you know, after this young man was shot, which now there has been two people

01:48:04.855 --> 01:48:09.735
who have been killed, there's been three people that's been shot in Minneapolis,

01:48:10.055 --> 01:48:12.255
but two people have been killed,

01:48:12.955 --> 01:48:18.395
which has basically tripled the homicide rate in Minneapolis for this year.

01:48:19.973 --> 01:48:25.413
So after that, they had a vote. Congress decided to actually take a vote on something.

01:48:25.833 --> 01:48:32.893
They voted to include a budget package to avoid the shutdown because that was

01:48:32.893 --> 01:48:36.113
looming at the end of January. That was looming.

01:48:39.013 --> 01:48:41.873
And so as I'm recording this I don't know

01:48:41.873 --> 01:48:48.253
if the shutdown has happened or not you you know we'll catch up if it did but

01:48:48.253 --> 01:48:52.693
as of right now it looks like it wasn't going to happen and here's why because

01:48:52.693 --> 01:48:59.393
the shutdown could have happened in the house but seven democrats including Henry Cuellar,

01:49:00.213 --> 01:49:05.453
sided with the Republicans to pass the continuing resolutions.

01:49:06.493 --> 01:49:10.513
Now, again, I don't have a whole lot of high hopes for Cuellar.

01:49:10.673 --> 01:49:15.693
Cuellar's been like, I don't even know, does he know the difference between

01:49:15.693 --> 01:49:21.553
a Democrat and Republican? I think he just runs as a Democrat because the district is Democratic.

01:49:22.273 --> 01:49:27.093
But, you know, he got Donald Trump to pardon him and then turn around and told

01:49:27.093 --> 01:49:28.613
Donald Trump, I'm not switching party.

01:49:29.393 --> 01:49:31.073
So he gets over on everybody.

01:49:32.093 --> 01:49:37.793
That's just him. And if the people keep voting for him, you get what you vote for.

01:49:39.391 --> 01:49:47.231
But it was one of the seven decided to do a video young lady out of Spokane,

01:49:47.351 --> 01:49:53.051
Washington, who basically beat a super MAGA guy to get in Congress.

01:49:53.131 --> 01:49:59.131
But she's more or less like the House version of Kyrsten Sinema because she's

01:49:59.131 --> 01:50:05.391
voted against student loan relief and, you know, some other progressive things.

01:50:06.051 --> 01:50:11.851
And, you know, she tried to explain why she voted for the resolution and it

01:50:11.851 --> 01:50:15.731
was just kind of like probably we're better off not even doing the video,

01:50:15.931 --> 01:50:17.831
probably just take your lumps.

01:50:18.031 --> 01:50:20.431
She's got an opponent in the primary.

01:50:22.031 --> 01:50:27.171
So we'll see how that goes. So anyway, it passed the House and now it was over

01:50:27.171 --> 01:50:33.531
in the Senate and so, you know, the senators were kind of talking tough and

01:50:33.531 --> 01:50:36.251
saying that they weren't going to vote for it.

01:50:36.371 --> 01:50:40.191
The Democrats were, as a couple of Republicans said, they weren't going to vote

01:50:40.191 --> 01:50:44.711
for the continuing resolutions until something happens at Homeland Security.

01:50:45.311 --> 01:50:48.771
You know, got to get these folks out of Minnesota.

01:50:48.831 --> 01:50:54.551
You got to, you know, get Kristi Noem out. Just, you know, there was a lot of demands.

01:50:55.651 --> 01:50:59.271
But, you know, and then Hakeem Jeffries got up there and said,

01:50:59.271 --> 01:51:05.591
well, if she doesn't resign, we're going to go forward with impeachment proceedings,

01:51:06.531 --> 01:51:07.851
you know, started drafting it up.

01:51:08.031 --> 01:51:15.351
Now, of course, he couched that by saying, you know, once the Democrats get

01:51:15.351 --> 01:51:19.511
control of the House, that's going to be the first order of business if she

01:51:19.511 --> 01:51:21.031
hasn't resigned by November,

01:51:21.451 --> 01:51:24.111
I guess. So...

01:51:26.095 --> 01:51:29.895
And supposedly they've worked out some kind of deal where they're going to let

01:51:29.895 --> 01:51:32.095
the other continuing resolutions go,

01:51:32.275 --> 01:51:39.775
but they're going to set aside the Homeland Security continuing resolution and

01:51:39.775 --> 01:51:46.895
change that to like keep it going for two weeks instead of, you know,

01:51:47.735 --> 01:51:52.175
voting for the package like they did in the House for the whole fiscal year.

01:51:52.175 --> 01:51:58.355
And then give them a couple weeks to discuss all of the demands that Democrats want.

01:51:58.675 --> 01:52:04.255
And supposedly they've agreed on that. Supposedly President Trump has given his blessing to that.

01:52:04.855 --> 01:52:14.215
And I'm like, it's just gotten to a point now where nobody will take the hard stand.

01:52:15.455 --> 01:52:18.755
Nobody will just say, you know what, just shut this down.

01:52:19.655 --> 01:52:25.795
I've been trying to get these folks to shut it down from the very beginning, right?

01:52:26.555 --> 01:52:32.395
If Chuck Schumer had shut it down the first time, they had the opportunity to shut it down, cool.

01:52:32.575 --> 01:52:36.235
Then when you did shut it down, you didn't really have a plan.

01:52:36.635 --> 01:52:38.315
You didn't have an exit strategy.

01:52:38.915 --> 01:52:42.415
You just said, well, we got to shut it down because we got jumped on for not

01:52:42.415 --> 01:52:43.635
shutting it down the first time.

01:52:45.350 --> 01:52:48.630
Have an exit strategy when they was cutting off everybody's food stamps,

01:52:48.910 --> 01:52:51.550
you didn't know how to counter that, right?

01:52:52.570 --> 01:52:57.210
And of course, the government employees being laid off and, you know,

01:52:57.430 --> 01:53:04.790
so that ended with no real changes in healthcare subsidies.

01:53:05.070 --> 01:53:12.250
People still didn't get the tax break or the subsidy to offset the health care costs.

01:53:13.010 --> 01:53:14.490
So now here's the third opportunity.

01:53:15.270 --> 01:53:21.690
We've had two people killed by the federal government and the government is still operating.

01:53:24.290 --> 01:53:27.450
We're making deals instead of making demands.

01:53:28.470 --> 01:53:38.030
I don't get it. I don't get it, but, you know, maybe people smarter than me do, but I don't get it.

01:53:38.030 --> 01:53:45.690
And, you know, this is the time where you use all the tools in the rule book to,

01:53:46.701 --> 01:53:51.441
down. Whatever parliamentary procedure you have to pull out,

01:53:51.701 --> 01:53:58.401
whatever no votes you have to give, whatever you need to do, this is the time.

01:53:59.101 --> 01:54:03.801
You know, the president is on a delusion that he's still popular.

01:54:04.581 --> 01:54:07.341
He's always going to think that for the rest of his life.

01:54:08.341 --> 01:54:14.221
People say that's senility, But he's been that way when he was fully functional,

01:54:14.221 --> 01:54:17.781
if he ever was technically fully functional.

01:54:18.041 --> 01:54:22.021
But when he was much younger, he had these same delusions of grandeur.

01:54:22.201 --> 01:54:26.481
So that's not going to change. It's like his nature.

01:54:27.181 --> 01:54:31.721
But the polls are showing that people are pissed, right?

01:54:32.001 --> 01:54:37.581
And how they're planning this no king's march in March.

01:54:38.341 --> 01:54:43.541
But I don't know how many people are going to be dead by then at the rate they're going, right?

01:54:44.041 --> 01:54:48.141
And then we got the flip side.

01:54:52.401 --> 01:54:59.861
Where we've got somebody like a Nicki Minaj who is so caught up in her personal

01:54:59.861 --> 01:55:03.901
agenda that she's tone deaf to what's happening.

01:55:04.581 --> 01:55:11.981
You know, she's trying to get some kind of relief for her husband,

01:55:11.981 --> 01:55:13.501
some kind of relief for her brother.

01:55:14.241 --> 01:55:19.841
And now she's got her Trump gold card, which means that she paid a million dollars.

01:55:21.801 --> 01:55:26.841
Get permanent residency in the United States. Up until this point, she had not done that.

01:55:27.461 --> 01:55:32.121
She's paid taxes. She's lived in the country. She's done her thing,

01:55:32.121 --> 01:55:37.301
but she had not gone through all the steps to be at least a permanent resident.

01:55:38.221 --> 01:55:41.921
And I guess with all the stuff that was going on and some of the things she

01:55:41.921 --> 01:55:48.921
had said about Trump in the past, I guess she felt this was her time to get her manumission.

01:55:50.101 --> 01:55:53.921
And, you know, she got on Twitter and showed it.

01:55:55.801 --> 01:55:59.601
So, you know, it's just a terrible time.

01:56:00.261 --> 01:56:03.541
But this is the reason why we don't deify human beings.

01:56:03.701 --> 01:56:10.521
This is the reason why we don't glorify human beings too much or that we shouldn't do it.

01:56:11.521 --> 01:56:15.381
Because human beings are human beings, which means that if you put them up on

01:56:15.381 --> 01:56:18.801
a high pedestal, So they're going to let you down because they're going to be human.

01:56:19.581 --> 01:56:23.041
And I think, you know, if you're a fan of the music, great.

01:56:23.301 --> 01:56:29.761
But if you're part of the fan club, that's pushing it because fan is short for fanatic.

01:56:31.021 --> 01:56:37.701
But it's like, you know, a lot of these people that we are entertained by are not on our side.

01:56:39.861 --> 01:56:47.081
And, you know, they might rap about this or, you know, because of our culture,

01:56:47.081 --> 01:56:49.901
we embrace them for their athletic prowess.

01:56:50.301 --> 01:56:56.241
But a lot of them, once they get to a certain financial status, not on our side.

01:56:56.381 --> 01:57:01.281
I just watched Mike Epps' special and he was joking about the fact that when

01:57:01.281 --> 01:57:05.021
black folks get some money, they try to move away from black folk, right?

01:57:06.704 --> 01:57:15.964
You know, and so, you know, I know there's a lot of people that are disappointed about that.

01:57:16.644 --> 01:57:23.524
But as we stated, I am now 61 years old and I've been a black man all my life.

01:57:24.044 --> 01:57:27.304
So I'm used to it. I'm not happy about it.

01:57:27.624 --> 01:57:32.444
It's like, OK, they got another one of us to do their work.

01:57:32.444 --> 01:57:37.164
Right you know this whole thing popped off when they were trying to arrest Don

01:57:37.164 --> 01:57:44.124
Lemon Nicki Minaj started going in on Don Lemon and using homophobic slurs and

01:57:44.124 --> 01:57:48.864
all this stuff and you know I guess because Don went in on her for,

01:57:49.544 --> 01:57:56.444
being on the show with Charlie Kirk's wife right or widow I should say,

01:57:57.564 --> 01:58:02.104
and that and that's a bizarre weird thing,

01:58:03.484 --> 01:58:10.384
So, you know, we're in an age, you know, we're a long way from an age of heroes.

01:58:10.964 --> 01:58:17.684
We're in an age of ridiculousness. It makes sense that a show called Ridiculousness

01:58:17.684 --> 01:58:22.844
is the longest running show on American television right now.

01:58:23.224 --> 01:58:26.864
Because that's where we are. We're at this point.

01:58:28.924 --> 01:58:35.284
And if it wasn't killing us, if it wasn't oppressing us, it'd be funny.

01:58:35.944 --> 01:58:39.204
And we try to make light of it so we can get through it.

01:58:39.584 --> 01:58:45.764
That's why we value comedians like Jimmy Kimmel and Dave Chappelle and all these other folks.

01:58:45.764 --> 01:58:57.444
But this has really gone to a level that if you ain't trying to fix the problem, you are the problem.

01:58:57.744 --> 01:59:07.304
If you are not willing to shut it down, if you're not willing to give it your all, you know, then...

01:59:10.743 --> 01:59:15.403
But part of the problem, the old Army adage is lead, follow,

01:59:15.543 --> 01:59:17.323
or get out of the way, right?

01:59:18.163 --> 01:59:23.003
And the people that need to get out of the way are the biggest impediments to

01:59:23.003 --> 01:59:24.023
what we're trying to deal with.

01:59:25.703 --> 01:59:32.263
Again, like I said, man, this is a crazy time that we live in.

01:59:33.143 --> 01:59:43.083
I don't know what else to tell you, man. I just hope that we get some resolve, right?

01:59:43.623 --> 01:59:48.243
You know, I know our everyday lives dictate that we do something.

01:59:48.423 --> 01:59:51.223
We got to go to work and deal with whatever's going on at work.

01:59:51.363 --> 01:59:54.623
We have families and we got to deal with whatever's going on with our family.

01:59:55.283 --> 02:00:03.103
But I think the most important sacrifice we need to make is to make time to fight for this nation.

02:00:03.103 --> 02:00:09.803
Because anything that's going on in your life right now, if this nation falls,

02:00:10.203 --> 02:00:11.963
that's going to change it.

02:00:12.563 --> 02:00:16.783
You're worried about what school. In an authoritarian setting,

02:00:16.783 --> 02:00:18.383
you may not get that choice anymore.

02:00:19.143 --> 02:00:23.683
You know, what kind of job you got, you may not have that choice anymore.

02:00:25.646 --> 02:00:30.586
How much money you make, you may not have a choice anymore.

02:00:31.266 --> 02:00:38.166
You know, I can imagine because we all human beings and human beings have evolved

02:00:38.166 --> 02:00:43.866
to a degree, but behavior wise, not that much.

02:00:44.846 --> 02:00:48.886
I'm sure there were folks that were just trying to go about their everyday life

02:00:48.886 --> 02:00:52.246
in the middle of the American Revolution 250 years ago.

02:00:52.466 --> 02:00:57.626
I imagine. I imagine there were some people that were more concerned about what

02:00:57.626 --> 02:01:03.486
they were going to do at their blacksmith shop or candle making shop or whatever,

02:01:03.926 --> 02:01:08.746
more so than the politics that was going on, that the revolution that was ongoing,

02:01:09.426 --> 02:01:14.966
you know, that was coming forth, you know, or that was already taking place.

02:01:15.366 --> 02:01:17.946
Right. Shots had been fired. Right.

02:01:19.155 --> 02:01:23.735
People that was trying to cozy up to the British, you know?

02:01:24.235 --> 02:01:26.975
You know, it was black folks that looked at the British and say,

02:01:27.115 --> 02:01:28.355
well, at least I'll be free.

02:01:29.195 --> 02:01:34.195
Not understanding that all the ships that were bringing them in were British ships.

02:01:34.935 --> 02:01:40.375
Were their cousins to the Caribbean islands, right?

02:01:42.375 --> 02:01:47.575
And, but they figured, well, you know, if we side with the British, we'd be free.

02:01:48.235 --> 02:01:53.215
And there were those of us that sided with the colonists thinking,

02:01:53.675 --> 02:01:59.195
well, we fight for the freedom of this nation. We might get our own freedom too, right?

02:02:00.995 --> 02:02:09.055
So I get it that there's no guarantees that things are going to be better if we get rid of Trump.

02:02:09.055 --> 02:02:17.655
But just like the gamble that was taken by Crispus addicts and other blacks

02:02:17.655 --> 02:02:23.935
like him, the side with the colonists, I just think the alternative would have been much worse.

02:02:25.515 --> 02:02:32.335
Because we won the war when the Constitution was written, there was an effort

02:02:32.335 --> 02:02:35.155
on paper to end the slave trade.

02:02:35.395 --> 02:02:40.695
There was actually a date put into the Constitution to end the slave trade, right?

02:02:41.135 --> 02:02:46.015
Don't know if that would have happened if King George had succeeded.

02:02:46.655 --> 02:02:50.995
I mean, eventually it would have ended, right? Maybe.

02:02:51.635 --> 02:02:57.995
But it wouldn't have been a civil war to decide it, because we've all been colonies of England.

02:02:58.955 --> 02:03:05.375
We had all been part of the British Empire, which was exploiting everybody and everything. Right?

02:03:06.215 --> 02:03:13.995
I mean, at some point, we've got to show some resolve and fight for what is right.

02:03:15.515 --> 02:03:17.875
We've got to do that, eventually. Right?

02:03:19.461 --> 02:03:26.301
If that means that you might not need to go to choir practice or you might not

02:03:26.301 --> 02:03:33.001
need to go on their dinner or you might not need to go shopping for not grocery

02:03:33.001 --> 02:03:34.621
shopping, but just shopping,

02:03:35.141 --> 02:03:38.881
you know, an indulgence, if you will. Right.

02:03:39.441 --> 02:03:42.941
Because people have talked about, well, why don't we just have a national strike?

02:03:43.721 --> 02:03:45.761
We're too selfish for that to work.

02:03:47.081 --> 02:03:48.121
Nobody's willing to make the

02:03:48.121 --> 02:03:55.221
sacrifice for that to work but I would I pray that we get to that point.

02:03:57.478 --> 02:04:02.938
It doesn't make sense now. It is ridiculous now. It is a joke now.

02:04:03.678 --> 02:04:11.598
These folks have succeeded in making something that took 250 years to build almost irrelevant.

02:04:12.418 --> 02:04:21.398
And for the few of us that still believe, you know, we just need the rest of y'all to trust us.

02:04:22.538 --> 02:04:27.138
Make that sacrifice. Make that sacrifice to give these people hell.

02:04:27.478 --> 02:04:35.118
And just, you know, some point we just got to shut this down because I can't

02:04:35.118 --> 02:04:42.278
imagine the leadership that we have now doing what needs to be done like Mandela

02:04:42.278 --> 02:04:46.438
and them did in South Africa or what we did,

02:04:46.758 --> 02:04:51.238
what the world did with the Nuremberg trial, right?

02:04:51.738 --> 02:04:57.838
I just can't see us doing that. I can't envision us doing the right thing and

02:04:57.838 --> 02:05:01.718
disbarring all of these lawyers doing this evil work.

02:05:01.918 --> 02:05:09.438
I can't envision us putting people in jail for sedition for what they've done to this nation.

02:05:09.958 --> 02:05:16.398
Right? Because all of this foolishness, all of this ridiculous stuff is basically sedition.

02:05:17.238 --> 02:05:23.158
That might sound harsh to people, but if you're trying to destroy the American

02:05:23.158 --> 02:05:25.878
government, that's what sedition is.

02:05:26.298 --> 02:05:33.038
But we want to just say, oh, it's politics, da-da-da-da-da. Nothing is normal. It is not normal.

02:05:33.938 --> 02:05:42.458
So I just want to end that. I hope and pray that we decide when we've had enough,

02:05:42.458 --> 02:05:45.898
we can be unified enough to let them know.

02:05:46.398 --> 02:05:52.658
And shut it down. Now, whatever comes after that, we'll deal with that.

02:05:54.715 --> 02:05:58.755
We took to Gamble 250 years ago to break away from an empire.

02:05:59.475 --> 02:06:06.655
There were a lot of bumps on that road because there were some mentalities that we needed to overcome.

02:06:07.275 --> 02:06:09.495
But now we're at another point.

02:06:10.415 --> 02:06:15.315
We're at another road marker. And we're going to have to make a decision.

02:06:15.915 --> 02:06:23.615
You have to overcome your fear, your timidity, and your apathy because this

02:06:23.615 --> 02:06:27.335
stuff this ridiculous state that we're in.

02:06:27.835 --> 02:06:36.935
Oh, I didn't even mention, they came and took the voting files from the 2020 election in Georgia.

02:06:37.575 --> 02:06:42.715
And you got Tulsi Gabbard, who is trying to stay in good graces.

02:06:43.955 --> 02:06:48.815
She had no input about what was going on in Venezuela, had no input of what

02:06:48.815 --> 02:06:53.055
was going on with Iran or any of these international conflicts.

02:06:53.055 --> 02:06:54.895
Or even in the Greenland conversation.

02:06:55.435 --> 02:07:00.215
But they sent the Director of National Intelligence to go get voter files from

02:07:00.215 --> 02:07:05.795
the county warehouse in Georgia, in Fulcan County, in Atlanta.

02:07:06.735 --> 02:07:08.455
All of this stuff, man.

02:07:09.675 --> 02:07:14.415
Somebody said maybe they're going to throw in Tulsi in there.

02:07:14.555 --> 02:07:18.775
Maybe they're going to try to get Maduro to say that Venezuela had something

02:07:18.775 --> 02:07:21.915
to do with the 2020 elections being rigged and Donald Trump losing.

02:07:23.055 --> 02:07:27.775
I wouldn't put it past them because we're at a point of everything being ridiculous.

02:07:29.175 --> 02:07:32.055
So guys, just y'all chew on that.

02:07:32.415 --> 02:07:36.355
And y'all say, well, Fleming, you know, you, you can say all that,

02:07:36.475 --> 02:07:38.895
but I got to live my life. I feel.

02:07:39.815 --> 02:07:45.735
But when your life is totally shattered, when you had a chance to do something

02:07:45.735 --> 02:07:49.315
to stop that, you got to deal with that too.

02:07:50.255 --> 02:07:53.235
All right, guys, thank y'all for listening until next. you.