Truth & Faith Featuring David Daley and Jeanné Lewis

WEBVTT

00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:06.117
Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

00:00:06.437 --> 00:00:08.977
I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

00:00:09.337 --> 00:00:12.737
If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.

00:00:13.277 --> 00:00:19.397
First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash A Moment with Erik Fleming.

00:00:19.757 --> 00:00:24.637
Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak

00:00:24.637 --> 00:00:27.957
truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.

00:00:28.517 --> 00:00:32.857
Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you

00:00:32.857 --> 00:00:35.617
listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.

00:00:36.257 --> 00:00:41.937
Third, go to the website, momenteric.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,

00:00:42.277 --> 00:00:47.257
leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

00:00:47.817 --> 00:00:51.877
Lastly, don't keep this a secret like it's your own personal guilty pleasure.

00:00:51.877 --> 00:00:56.997
Tell someone else about the podcast encourage others to listen to the podcast

00:00:56.997 --> 00:01:02.617
and share the podcast on your social media platforms because it is time to make

00:01:02.617 --> 00:01:07.457
this moment a movement thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time

00:01:07.457 --> 00:01:10.197
i hope you enjoy this episode as well,

00:01:11.517 --> 00:01:16.277
the following program is hosted by the nbg podcast network.

00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:56.240
Music.

00:01:57.581 --> 00:02:02.481
And welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

00:02:03.021 --> 00:02:09.741
All right, so I hope that all y'all listening had a nice Valentine's Day.

00:02:10.521 --> 00:02:12.841
I hope you made it a whole weekend.

00:02:14.441 --> 00:02:19.721
And, you know, even though we don't have a whole lot of love,

00:02:22.041 --> 00:02:25.341
coming out of Washington, D.C.

00:02:25.581 --> 00:02:32.401
At this point, I hope that you and your significant other had a good Valentine's

00:02:32.401 --> 00:02:33.861
weekend, regardless of that.

00:02:34.461 --> 00:02:41.501
And those of you who are celebrating Black History Month, I hope that if you

00:02:41.501 --> 00:02:44.281
haven't had your event yet, I hope that it's successful.

00:02:44.281 --> 00:02:49.741
If you've had your event, I hope that it was well attended and people gained something from it.

00:02:49.741 --> 00:03:00.841
And for my friends out there in Jackson and here in Atlanta and Chicago and

00:03:00.841 --> 00:03:02.501
everywhere else in the country,

00:03:02.661 --> 00:03:05.101
I've been given opportunities to speak or participate.

00:03:05.321 --> 00:03:13.421
I hope that you've had an enriching and enlightening experience in doing that.

00:03:14.301 --> 00:03:18.521
Because despite what other people say, it's important.

00:03:19.718 --> 00:03:29.258
It's important that in a country that is diverse, that we respect each other's cultures.

00:03:30.218 --> 00:03:37.298
And, you know, some people just don't get that, but we're going to continue to work on that.

00:03:38.258 --> 00:03:43.418
And speaking about working on it, I have two people coming on today who,

00:03:43.838 --> 00:03:49.898
in their own way, are addressing the issues and trying to inform people about

00:03:49.898 --> 00:03:55.338
what's going on and even to an extent how they can fix what's going on.

00:03:55.338 --> 00:04:05.238
You know, one of them is is a journalist and has dedicated his life to not only

00:04:05.238 --> 00:04:08.218
seeking the truth, but presenting it.

00:04:08.798 --> 00:04:13.898
And it's really was an honor to get him on.

00:04:13.898 --> 00:04:20.658
And then I have a return guest coming back who's been an activist in the community,

00:04:20.858 --> 00:04:22.278
especially in the faith community,

00:04:22.638 --> 00:04:28.678
trying to address a lot of the issues that that we're dealing with now and have

00:04:28.678 --> 00:04:30.258
been dealing with in the past.

00:04:30.938 --> 00:04:38.978
And I just felt like I needed her to come back on in light of where we are.

00:04:39.598 --> 00:04:42.458
So I hope that you enjoy these guests as well.

00:04:44.458 --> 00:04:48.818
And as always, I enjoy the conversations on and off the air.

00:04:49.238 --> 00:04:56.478
But I really think that y'all will appreciate the conversations that we had that you can hear.

00:04:57.198 --> 00:05:00.918
All right. So enough me for right now.

00:05:01.118 --> 00:05:04.138
It's time to go ahead and keep this program off. And as always,

00:05:04.498 --> 00:05:08.178
we started off with a moment of news with Grace G.

00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:15.920
Music.

00:05:15.078 --> 00:05:20.658
Thanks erik federal prosecutors in an unprecedented move dropped corruption

00:05:20.658 --> 00:05:26.418
charges against new york mayor eric adams the family of sonia massey a black

00:05:26.418 --> 00:05:31.578
woman fatally shot by police in illinois will receive 10 million dollars in a settlement,

00:05:32.312 --> 00:05:36.872
Tulsi Gabbard, a former U.S. representative with limited intelligence experience,

00:05:37.312 --> 00:05:40.232
was confirmed as the Director of National Intelligence.

00:05:40.872 --> 00:05:45.832
Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a vaccine critic, was also confirmed as the Secretary

00:05:45.832 --> 00:05:47.492
for Health and Human Services.

00:05:48.332 --> 00:05:52.992
U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi sued New York state officials over failures

00:05:52.992 --> 00:05:54.552
in immigration enforcement.

00:05:54.852 --> 00:05:59.612
A U.S. judge allowed the Trump administration to proceed with a buyout program

00:05:59.612 --> 00:06:03.972
for federal workers. President Trump signed an order to cut U.S.

00:06:04.012 --> 00:06:09.512
Aid to South Africa over its recent farmland policies A federal judge temporarily

00:06:09.512 --> 00:06:14.592
blocked the Trump administration from accessing government payment systems Russia

00:06:14.592 --> 00:06:17.872
released American teacher Mark Fogel after U.S.

00:06:18.112 --> 00:06:25.672
Envoy Steve Witkoff's surprise visit to Moscow A judge temporarily reinstated around 2,700 U.S.

00:06:25.692 --> 00:06:30.272
Aid employees put on leave by the Trump administration Authorities recovered

00:06:30.272 --> 00:06:36.612
all 10 victims from a Cessna plane crash in the Bering Sea off the Alaskan coast The U.S.

00:06:37.052 --> 00:06:41.752
Military will ban transgender individuals from enlisting and cease gender transition

00:06:41.752 --> 00:06:46.772
procedures for service members International Criminal Court Prosecutor Kareem

00:06:46.772 --> 00:06:49.952
Khan is the first individual sanctioned by the U.S.

00:06:50.192 --> 00:06:54.492
Under Trump's order targeting the tribunal over investigations involving U.S.

00:06:54.952 --> 00:07:00.912
Citizens or allies A federal judge denied a request to block Elon Musk's DOGE

00:07:00.912 --> 00:07:03.612
from accessing Labor Department systems.

00:07:03.932 --> 00:07:09.112
Former Trump advisor Steve Bannon pled guilty to fraud in a New York court over

00:07:09.112 --> 00:07:11.512
a fundraising scheme for the border wall.

00:07:12.192 --> 00:07:17.352
And Sam Nujoma, Namibia's first democratically elected president and a key leader

00:07:17.352 --> 00:07:20.472
in its independence, passed away at the age of 95.

00:07:21.052 --> 00:07:25.092
I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.

00:07:24.080 --> 00:07:31.920
Music.

00:07:32.252 --> 00:07:35.612
All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.

00:07:35.952 --> 00:07:40.872
And now it's time for my first guest, David Daley.

00:07:41.632 --> 00:07:46.212
David Daley is the author of the new book, Anti-Democratic, Inside the Rights

00:07:46.212 --> 00:07:49.192
50-Year Plot to Control American Elections.

00:07:49.612 --> 00:07:56.132
He is also the author of the national bestseller, Rat F'd, Why Your Vote Doesn't

00:07:56.132 --> 00:08:01.192
Count, which has been credited for kickstarting the national drive to end gerrymandering.

00:08:01.472 --> 00:08:05.932
His journalism has appeared in The New Yorker, The New York Times,

00:08:06.232 --> 00:08:08.212
and The Atlantic, among other publications.

00:08:08.532 --> 00:08:13.752
He is a former editor-in-chief of Salon, a senior fellow at FairVote,

00:08:13.912 --> 00:08:19.012
and has taught political science in journalism at Wesleyan, Boston College,

00:08:19.512 --> 00:08:22.272
Smith College, and the University of Georgia.

00:08:22.612 --> 00:08:26.932
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:08:26.932 --> 00:08:30.092
on this podcast, David Daley.

00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:41.040
Music.

00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:44.939
All right. David Daly, how are you doing, sir? You doing good?

00:08:45.599 --> 00:08:49.179
I'm good. Thanks for having me on, Erik. Well, it's really an honor for me to

00:08:49.179 --> 00:08:54.599
have you on, and I know that you're a busy guy, so let's go ahead and get this thing started.

00:08:54.999 --> 00:08:57.739
I do a couple of things to kind of break the ice.

00:08:58.239 --> 00:09:05.899
So the first thing is I give you a quote, and this is the quote.

00:09:06.059 --> 00:09:10.939
It says, throwing out preclearance when it is continuing to work is like throwing

00:09:10.939 --> 00:09:15.499
away your umbrella in a rainstorm because you are not getting wet.

00:09:16.079 --> 00:09:22.219
Give me your response to that quote. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Shelby County dissent

00:09:22.219 --> 00:09:27.139
more than a decade ago, and boy, was she ever right.

00:09:28.139 --> 00:09:33.519
Preclearance was the most effective enforcement arm of the Voting Rights Act,

00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:36.919
and the minute that john roberts and the u.s supreme

00:09:36.919 --> 00:09:46.539
court took it away what we have seen is 12 years now of voter suppression tactics

00:09:46.539 --> 00:09:55.079
across the formerly covered states that roberts and his crew could be so blind,

00:09:55.419 --> 00:10:05.619
that they could be so absolutely clueless and ignorant of the actual historic record,

00:10:05.779 --> 00:10:10.099
of the actual need for preclearance, of the importance of the Voting Rights

00:10:10.099 --> 00:10:12.599
Act in creating a multiracial democracy.

00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:19.419
What it speaks to is the fact that they don't actually believe in any of those things.

00:10:19.799 --> 00:10:25.539
And it's not that they ignored Ginsburg's warning.

00:10:25.619 --> 00:10:29.679
It's that they had no interest at all in listening to it because they wanted

00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:32.179
a very different country. They've gotten it.

00:10:32.719 --> 00:10:39.739
Yeah. So the next iceberg I have is a thing called 20 questions.

00:10:40.499 --> 00:10:46.099
So what I need you to do is to give me a number between 1 and 20?

00:10:46.839 --> 00:10:51.159
17. All right. That's actually a pretty popular number. All right.

00:10:52.299 --> 00:10:58.899
What's something about people who see the world differently than you that you've come to appreciate?

00:10:59.619 --> 00:11:01.139
That's a great question. Yeah.

00:11:02.443 --> 00:11:08.803
I think it's difficult in these times sometimes to appreciate other people who

00:11:08.803 --> 00:11:10.703
see the world differently.

00:11:11.083 --> 00:11:20.203
I have spent a lot of time in these books trying to talk to and understand where

00:11:20.203 --> 00:11:24.283
folks are coming from, even though they don't necessarily agree with me.

00:11:24.283 --> 00:11:28.443
I spend a lot of time in anti-democratic speaking with Edward Bloom.

00:11:28.803 --> 00:11:37.583
The lawyer who brought the Shelby County case, who has been crucial in doing

00:11:37.583 --> 00:11:40.183
away with so much of the affirmative action.

00:11:40.183 --> 00:11:47.363
I think that sometimes we ascribe evil mastermind to people who we disagree with,

00:11:47.543 --> 00:11:55.823
and sometimes they're doing the best they can to advance causes that they genuinely believe in.

00:11:55.823 --> 00:12:01.083
I mean, I think someone like Bloom genuinely believes what he says,

00:12:01.283 --> 00:12:09.203
genuinely believes that he's working towards the kind of nation that he thinks

00:12:09.203 --> 00:12:11.303
comes out of the civil rights movement.

00:12:11.303 --> 00:12:14.843
He's just fundamentally wrong

00:12:14.843 --> 00:12:18.663
and i think has blind spots but i

00:12:18.663 --> 00:12:21.983
i do think that there are some folks

00:12:21.983 --> 00:12:35.903
who certainly are working to advance ideals as best they can yeah i i i feel

00:12:35.903 --> 00:12:39.163
you You know, and it's like, I was like, wow,

00:12:39.443 --> 00:12:43.163
he got to talk to Edward Bloom. I don't know how calm I would have been.

00:12:43.683 --> 00:12:46.523
I mean, you know, but I'm not a professional journalist, so,

00:12:46.803 --> 00:12:48.823
you know what I'm saying?

00:12:49.323 --> 00:12:52.683
But I appreciate that answer.

00:12:53.563 --> 00:12:59.403
We got, you know, I mean, Bloom is a fascinating figure, and I think one of

00:12:59.403 --> 00:13:03.243
the most consequential figures of the last 25 years.

00:13:03.743 --> 00:13:08.803
And he welcomed me into his home in Maine and made me soup for lunch.

00:13:09.003 --> 00:13:15.743
And we sat around and he answered all of my questions. And we got into a pretty

00:13:15.743 --> 00:13:18.523
good, if friendly, debate.

00:13:18.803 --> 00:13:24.083
I've got a 5,000-word transcript of that if someone wants to publish our back and forth someday.

00:13:24.323 --> 00:13:32.043
That didn't make the book, unfortunately. But what I think is really interesting is,

00:13:32.643 --> 00:13:36.283
especially when we're talking about the Shelby County case,

00:13:36.703 --> 00:13:45.723
the Shelby County case emerges from a deeply flawed and illegal redistricting

00:13:45.723 --> 00:13:50.023
in a small town in Alabama called Calera. And.

00:13:50.858 --> 00:13:56.858
Calera, Alabama, had just elected its second black counselor in the history

00:13:56.858 --> 00:13:59.158
of this town. And what did they do?

00:13:59.258 --> 00:14:04.478
They immediately moved to redistrict, and they turned this man's seat inside

00:14:04.478 --> 00:14:07.238
out. It went from 70% black to 71% white.

00:14:07.978 --> 00:14:11.018
He lost the next election by two votes.

00:14:11.718 --> 00:14:14.818
Calera did not pre-clear those districts.

00:14:15.038 --> 00:14:20.598
They did not pre-clear any of the annexations that made a redistricting necessary in that town.

00:14:20.838 --> 00:14:25.918
It is a classic example of why the Voting Rights Act is still necessary,

00:14:25.918 --> 00:14:28.018
because it was so often being ignored.

00:14:28.378 --> 00:14:34.478
And this stuff was happening not in 1958, but in 2007.

00:14:37.038 --> 00:14:41.338
And for Bloom and the people who he worked with on this case,

00:14:41.558 --> 00:14:43.238
it was just an opportunity.

00:14:43.978 --> 00:14:47.538
And when you explain the facts of what had happened in Calera,

00:14:47.978 --> 00:14:50.578
you get a lot of, I didn't know that.

00:14:50.818 --> 00:14:53.578
Oh, really? Is that the case?

00:14:55.538 --> 00:15:02.498
Because Calera had a lot of problems. That whole region in Shelby County had a lot of problems.

00:15:02.658 --> 00:15:08.478
There was a very similar case in Alabaster, Alabama, the town up the road just

00:15:08.478 --> 00:15:09.838
a couple of years earlier.

00:15:11.158 --> 00:15:17.218
And the ignorance of the facts on the ground can be astonishing.

00:15:18.218 --> 00:15:23.258
And you didn't tell me that you have the powers of clairvoyance and all that

00:15:23.258 --> 00:15:27.938
Cause that literally you answered my next question without me even asking it.

00:15:28.018 --> 00:15:29.278
So that was, that was awesome.

00:15:30.338 --> 00:15:36.678
So let's go on to, I was going to do it this way, but why don't you,

00:15:36.918 --> 00:15:41.018
what, who, what is the significance of these two individuals?

00:15:41.018 --> 00:15:44.998
You mentioned Bloom, who was one of the attorneys on the case. And I think.

00:15:46.537 --> 00:15:50.917
But no, that was another case I'm thinking about. Explain to the listeners the

00:15:50.917 --> 00:15:56.977
significance of these two individuals, Chris Jankowski and Leonard Leo.

00:15:57.777 --> 00:16:04.757
Two figures who have probably more to do with why we have an enduring Republican

00:16:04.757 --> 00:16:08.637
minority rule in this country than any others.

00:16:08.637 --> 00:16:14.677
Jankowski, it was the mastermind of something called REDMAP,

00:16:14.957 --> 00:16:17.457
the redistricting majority project,

00:16:17.937 --> 00:16:24.157
which the Republican State Leadership Committee pulled off 2009-2010.

00:16:24.157 --> 00:16:31.717
And the idea of this was Democrats had swept into office in 2008,

00:16:31.717 --> 00:16:37.617
but Republicans recognized that 2010 could be a much more consequential election

00:16:37.617 --> 00:16:40.497
because it was happening in a redistricting year.

00:16:41.077 --> 00:16:43.897
We redistrict every 10 years after the census.

00:16:43.897 --> 00:16:49.617
So if you can hold power in a redistricting year in state legislatures,

00:16:49.777 --> 00:16:51.017
especially around the country,

00:16:51.357 --> 00:16:58.497
you can draw maps for Congress and for state legislatures that advantage your

00:16:58.497 --> 00:17:00.357
side. It's called gerrymandering.

00:17:00.777 --> 00:17:04.117
We've all heard of gerrymandering. It's been around for a long time,

00:17:04.237 --> 00:17:08.477
but the gerrymanders that were drawn in 2010 were more intentional,

00:17:08.837 --> 00:17:12.437
more enduring, more consequential than probably any in our history.

00:17:12.437 --> 00:17:16.977
In part because one side took it upon themselves to try to win every seat at

00:17:16.977 --> 00:17:20.697
the table for the express purpose of drawing lines that they could not lose on.

00:17:20.977 --> 00:17:25.537
But for the secondary reason that the technology that they were able to do that

00:17:25.537 --> 00:17:32.957
with in 2010 was a million times better than even a decade previous.

00:17:33.157 --> 00:17:37.577
So they were able to draw lines in many states that they have not been able

00:17:37.577 --> 00:17:39.737
to lose on for the last 15 years.

00:17:40.157 --> 00:17:45.337
It has given Republicans a huge advantage in the race for the U.S. House every year since.

00:17:46.159 --> 00:17:49.319
It has locked in state legislatures around the country, and it's locked in a

00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:53.379
more extreme state legislature around the country, too, because when you draw

00:17:53.379 --> 00:17:57.019
uncompetitive districts, it moves all the action to the primary,

00:17:57.659 --> 00:18:01.119
primaries with seven or eight candidates all on one side.

00:18:01.139 --> 00:18:07.079
You can win those with 33 percent of the vote. It's held in June and nobody turns out.

00:18:07.379 --> 00:18:11.319
So, so much of the extremism and the uncompetitiveness in our politics can be

00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:16.059
traced back to Jankowski and this strategy from more than a decade ago.

00:18:16.159 --> 00:18:22.099
Leonard Leo is the mastermind of the Republican plan to win control of the courts.

00:18:22.659 --> 00:18:27.239
Leo, through his seat at the Federalist Society, which is really the clearinghouse

00:18:27.239 --> 00:18:32.519
and the approval center for all of the conservative right-wing judges around the country,

00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:40.959
Leo has taken it upon himself essentially to get to know every young conservative lawyer,

00:18:41.639 --> 00:18:46.079
law student who wants to move up along that fast track.

00:18:46.159 --> 00:18:50.719
And if you want to sit on a state Supreme Court, on a federal bench,

00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:53.639
on an appellate bench, or absolutely the U.S.

00:18:53.779 --> 00:18:57.199
Supreme Court, you need Leonard Leo's approval.

00:18:57.579 --> 00:19:04.379
Leo runs a billion-dollar dark money octopus. He's got his tentacles into dozens

00:19:04.379 --> 00:19:09.759
and dozens of different organizations that he funds with misleading names,

00:19:09.919 --> 00:19:11.319
with ever-changing names.

00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:13.279
And it's Leo who...

00:19:14.822 --> 00:19:21.742
Was given the power by Donald Trump back in 2016 to choose effectively to make a list,

00:19:22.002 --> 00:19:30.602
along with Don McGahn, of the acceptable Supreme Court judges to the conservative right.

00:19:31.202 --> 00:19:34.822
Leo and McGahn effectively drew that list up together.

00:19:35.082 --> 00:19:39.342
But his power goes far on the Supreme court.

00:19:39.542 --> 00:19:44.462
It's in the dark money that he raises for judicial races around the country.

00:19:46.122 --> 00:19:55.842
And it's in his ability to create the social networks at the same time that

00:19:55.842 --> 00:19:57.922
keep these judges in line.

00:19:57.962 --> 00:20:04.382
When you hear about Clarence Thomas or Samuel Alito taking luxury vacations

00:20:04.382 --> 00:20:10.482
or having tuition for their friends paid for or their mom's house being purchased.

00:20:10.502 --> 00:20:16.062
It's usually because of a billionaire that Leonard Leo has hooked the justices up with.

00:20:16.242 --> 00:20:19.362
So he has far reaching influence.

00:20:19.882 --> 00:20:25.402
Yeah. And, you know, I wish I had known these individuals when I was elected, right.

00:20:25.662 --> 00:20:30.722
And knew what I was up against because I've had to, during my time in the legislature,

00:20:30.722 --> 00:20:35.962
I had to be part of a pre-clearance challenge.

00:20:37.162 --> 00:20:41.542
And I definitely participated in redistricting.

00:20:42.402 --> 00:20:45.942
And, you know, but I was still, when I was in the legislature,

00:20:45.962 --> 00:20:52.142
we were like the last democratically held house, state house,

00:20:52.382 --> 00:20:54.842
in the country, in the South.

00:20:55.042 --> 00:20:58.162
That's right. In Mississippi, we were the last ones to flip.

00:20:58.162 --> 00:21:03.162
And so when we redistricted, we kind of did the gerrymandering the other way.

00:21:03.322 --> 00:21:09.042
It was I tried to draw a district where I would go into Clinton by myself and

00:21:09.042 --> 00:21:12.922
the committee decided to send five other members of the Black Caucus with me.

00:21:13.202 --> 00:21:17.842
And we split that city because they wanted to get rid of this one Republican.

00:21:18.102 --> 00:21:23.162
So they split the city of Clinton six ways. And so the city of Clinton that

00:21:23.162 --> 00:21:27.622
had about 24,000 people went from having one representative to six.

00:21:28.522 --> 00:21:35.702
So I've seen firsthand how it works on both sides as far as how how the gerrymandering process works.

00:21:36.482 --> 00:21:39.482
So don't hold that against me, David. Let's see.

00:21:39.782 --> 00:21:44.842
You make the argument in your book, Anti-Democratic, that Shelby B.

00:21:45.042 --> 00:21:50.442
Holder was the most significant case concerning the American electoral process.

00:21:50.442 --> 00:21:55.802
Why do you hold that above Citizens United versus FEC?

00:21:56.282 --> 00:22:01.662
Because we talked about Jankowski, and I think—.

00:22:02.688 --> 00:22:06.268
You know, I'm not necessarily disagreeing to you, but I think that Citizens

00:22:06.268 --> 00:22:15.008
United gives the fuel for Jankowski to fund an operation of the magnitude that he was able to do.

00:22:15.008 --> 00:22:22.488
And that altered the, you know, the state legislatures, especially in the South,

00:22:22.748 --> 00:22:29.488
where the income and some of the key swing states or what people call swing

00:22:29.488 --> 00:22:30.648
states, where it's like,

00:22:31.068 --> 00:22:36.668
even though the majority of the population voted for Democratic House members,

00:22:36.848 --> 00:22:39.308
for example, or state legislators.

00:22:40.468 --> 00:22:45.488
When you look at total numbers, when you look at the map, though,

00:22:46.288 --> 00:22:48.868
the Republicans ended up winning all the seats.

00:22:49.588 --> 00:22:53.748
So why? Anyway, but and you might want to clean that up for me. But why?

00:22:54.048 --> 00:22:57.988
Why do you think Shelby Holder is more significant than Citizens United?

00:22:57.988 --> 00:23:04.868
I think we're talking about 1A and 1B, right? So it's a degrees of difference here.

00:23:05.268 --> 00:23:12.148
Both cases, crucially important, both cases, very early steps along John Roberts'

00:23:12.428 --> 00:23:17.988
road towards democratic, a small d democratic destruction.

00:23:17.988 --> 00:23:22.508
Because if you look at what the Roberts Court has done over the course of these

00:23:22.508 --> 00:23:27.568
last 20 years on every single case in which voting rights and democracy has

00:23:27.568 --> 00:23:32.088
come before it, it has ruled through a partisan lens.

00:23:32.288 --> 00:23:37.588
Or if they've not ruled through a direct partisan lens, the case has redounded

00:23:37.588 --> 00:23:42.328
in such a way that it has benefited the Republican Party and the conservative

00:23:42.328 --> 00:23:47.108
movement and the people who have put them on the court for precisely that reason.

00:23:47.108 --> 00:23:53.508
You can go back and you can look at Citizens United certainly as a crucial piece

00:23:53.508 --> 00:23:59.688
of unleashing billions of dollars in dark money into our politics that could

00:23:59.688 --> 00:24:04.168
not have been spent in that way before.

00:24:05.416 --> 00:24:13.336
I would argue slightly that Jankowski probably runs his redistricting plan regardless.

00:24:13.336 --> 00:24:19.656
It was underway at the time that Citizens United comes down in January of 2010.

00:24:19.836 --> 00:24:25.796
It only cost them $30 million, which is, you know, chump change in American politics.

00:24:25.796 --> 00:24:31.036
And he was able to raise a lot of that through the business community and sort

00:24:31.036 --> 00:24:37.656
of usual GOP interests. So, not to say that it's not a wildly consequential

00:24:37.656 --> 00:24:40.496
and important decision, it absolutely is.

00:24:40.636 --> 00:24:46.096
But I think that what is really important and what I think you're getting at

00:24:46.096 --> 00:24:51.436
is the way that redistricting and the Shelby County case have worked together

00:24:51.436 --> 00:24:58.096
as sort of a double knot of unfairness that has been twisted into state legislatures

00:24:58.096 --> 00:25:00.556
and congressional districts around the country.

00:25:00.556 --> 00:25:04.616
You're absolutely right to say that, you know, I mean, in North Carolina,

00:25:04.976 --> 00:25:09.716
in Ohio, in Michigan, in Wisconsin, you know, purple states we're talking about here.

00:25:10.456 --> 00:25:14.056
Majorities statewide vote for Democratic candidates.

00:25:14.516 --> 00:25:20.756
Republicans sometimes hold super majorities. And that is not government with

00:25:20.756 --> 00:25:24.556
the consent of the governed. A majority of Americans ought to be able to throw

00:25:24.556 --> 00:25:26.536
out their government if it displeases them.

00:25:26.676 --> 00:25:31.496
That is the basic American belief that goes back to the Tea Party,

00:25:31.716 --> 00:25:35.616
not the Tea Party of 2010, but the one back in the 1770s.

00:25:35.996 --> 00:25:42.956
And we have lost that in so many states where voters simply do not have that ability any longer.

00:25:44.236 --> 00:25:50.416
But even those redistrictings in states that had been covered by preclearance,

00:25:50.516 --> 00:25:55.036
right, in Georgia, in Texas, in Mississippi, in Alabama,

00:25:55.476 --> 00:26:01.716
those maps back before Shelby County still had to be precleared by the Department of Justice.

00:26:01.716 --> 00:26:08.776
And when John Roberts and his wrecking crew put an end to preclearance,

00:26:08.996 --> 00:26:15.056
they liberated all of these gerrymandered state legislatures to do their worst.

00:26:15.436 --> 00:26:17.336
They allowed...

00:26:18.460 --> 00:26:24.780
You know, Texas to enact a voter ID bill the very day that the Shelby County decision comes down,

00:26:25.100 --> 00:26:32.940
that the state of Texas knew full well that between six and 700,000 Latino voters

00:26:32.940 --> 00:26:38.720
in the state did not have the necessary forms of identification that the state

00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:41.820
was now requiring, not because they weren't citizens,

00:26:42.100 --> 00:26:47.540
but because the state legislators had researched the forms of ID that specific

00:26:47.540 --> 00:26:51.200
people were least likely to have and then required those.

00:26:51.880 --> 00:27:01.120
It unleashed the kinds of monster voter suppression bills that we saw in North Carolina, in Georgia.

00:27:01.540 --> 00:27:09.360
It allowed things like the local election boards in Georgia that attempted to,

00:27:09.660 --> 00:27:14.860
you know, quite possibly, if the election in 2024 had been closer,

00:27:15.120 --> 00:27:21.520
would have required hand recounts and delayed certification.

00:27:21.980 --> 00:27:27.300
All of these things that the legislatures have done would not have been legal,

00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:33.360
would not have been constitutional, or would at least had to have passed muster

00:27:33.360 --> 00:27:37.840
of the Department of Justice or a neutral court in Washington, D.C.

00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:42.360
Prior to this. And after the Shelby County decision.

00:27:43.160 --> 00:27:48.220
Really what it did was it flung open the doors of, you know,

00:27:48.820 --> 00:27:56.340
it's kind of like Stranger Things where, you know, the monster is kept at bay

00:27:56.340 --> 00:27:58.480
behind all kinds of locked doors.

00:27:58.800 --> 00:28:03.040
And what Shelby County did was it flung those doors open and it allowed those

00:28:03.040 --> 00:28:05.780
forces to be freed and to get out and do their worst.

00:28:06.300 --> 00:28:10.580
Yeah. Yeah. And that's a great metaphor.

00:28:11.300 --> 00:28:15.300
The strength of things. I'm sorry I came to it so late in my answer.

00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:17.760
But that's all right. That's good. That's good.

00:28:18.775 --> 00:28:24.215
So based on my reading of your book, it seems as though that the Republican

00:28:24.215 --> 00:28:27.995
Party has a 50-year head start in the Democratic Party.

00:28:28.295 --> 00:28:34.535
Because in the book, you talk about, you know, how people were really responding like right after.

00:28:34.675 --> 00:28:39.375
They were cities like Mobile, Alabama, that were challenging the Voting Rights Act right away.

00:28:39.695 --> 00:28:44.835
But it really was this Lewis Powell memo that kind of got everything started.

00:28:44.835 --> 00:28:49.415
At least that's, you know, you highlighted that very well.

00:28:49.935 --> 00:28:55.615
How can the Democrats catch up and possibly save what's left if they're like

00:28:55.615 --> 00:28:56.935
already 50 years behind?

00:28:57.655 --> 00:29:00.895
I think that's the crucial question.

00:29:01.255 --> 00:29:07.075
I think that we are likely to see this Supreme Court hold power for a long time to come.

00:29:07.475 --> 00:29:10.355
It's a 6-3 Republican court.

00:29:11.055 --> 00:29:17.395
Donald Trump will have the ability to appoint members for the next four years.

00:29:17.395 --> 00:29:23.115
If Justices Thomas and Alito decide to step down, they can be reinforced with

00:29:23.115 --> 00:29:26.135
a younger, reliable conservative vote.

00:29:26.655 --> 00:29:34.355
The court is probably a lost cause for the rest of my lifetime and,

00:29:34.355 --> 00:29:37.095
you know, maybe many others.

00:29:37.095 --> 00:29:42.035
The good news about the court is that Americans want to see reform.

00:29:42.775 --> 00:29:46.535
Three quarters of all Americans, Democrats, Republicans, and independents,

00:29:46.695 --> 00:29:50.495
believe that there ought to be term limits on Supreme Court justices,

00:29:50.755 --> 00:29:55.175
believe that there ought to be a binding ethics code on Supreme Court justices.

00:29:55.515 --> 00:30:01.675
And I think the work that Democrats need to do and that they haven't done is

00:30:01.675 --> 00:30:06.055
to really make the case for why we need reform.

00:30:06.569 --> 00:30:13.989
Big structural judicial reform, why we ought to have more justices on this court,

00:30:14.289 --> 00:30:18.969
why we ought to limit the jurisdiction of what this court can do.

00:30:19.129 --> 00:30:25.709
And I think we have to stop, in some ways, thinking about this court as a court.

00:30:25.889 --> 00:30:32.669
We have to talk about it as what it is, a conservative super majority,

00:30:32.669 --> 00:30:36.829
super legislature that has

00:30:36.829 --> 00:30:40.329
been picked and elevated

00:30:40.329 --> 00:30:46.889
itself above the other branches of government for partisan purposes in order

00:30:46.889 --> 00:30:52.789
to ratify and enable an agenda that lacks the support of the American people

00:30:52.789 --> 00:30:59.469
and that Republicans have decided they can impose through a judicial fiat.

00:30:59.469 --> 00:31:03.069
That is really what is happening.

00:31:03.409 --> 00:31:06.369
I mean, Abraham Lincoln, back in his first inaugural,

00:31:06.669 --> 00:31:15.169
said that if the Supreme Court becomes the final answer on all questions of

00:31:15.169 --> 00:31:21.369
public policy, and I'm paraphrasing, but this last part is a direct quotation.

00:31:21.709 --> 00:31:26.389
He said that the people will have ceased to be their own rulers.

00:31:26.389 --> 00:31:38.209
And I don't think the American people want a body of nine who are unelected, appointed for life.

00:31:38.629 --> 00:31:41.829
Have no ethics code, no accountability.

00:31:42.269 --> 00:31:51.509
To have that kind of power in what is, whether it's a republic or a democracy

00:31:51.509 --> 00:31:53.249
or a representative democracy.

00:31:53.249 --> 00:32:00.729
I think we should all believe that that is too much power for anyone unelected to hold.

00:32:01.029 --> 00:32:06.849
And there's a real argument there to make, I think, that the Democrats need

00:32:06.849 --> 00:32:10.609
to be out in force making. So...

00:32:11.052 --> 00:32:14.952
In one of my early podcasts, and this will be my last question,

00:32:15.252 --> 00:32:21.072
I stated that we may be entering a new era of good feelings where one political

00:32:21.072 --> 00:32:24.992
party became dominant and the other main party fell into obscurity.

00:32:25.372 --> 00:32:28.992
I was making the argument that the Republicans were becoming irrelevant,

00:32:28.992 --> 00:32:33.652
but it may actually be the Democratic Party that may become the obscure party.

00:32:33.812 --> 00:32:35.612
What are your thoughts on that?

00:32:36.012 --> 00:32:40.592
Oh, by the way, before you answer that, I'm going to try to subscribe to the

00:32:40.592 --> 00:32:45.252
McCaskey plan, the lady who just passed, who was the owner of the Bears. She lived to be 102.

00:32:45.972 --> 00:32:49.692
So if I can get on that plan, and maybe you and I get on that plan,

00:32:49.752 --> 00:32:52.832
we can outlast these folks on the Supreme Court.

00:32:53.292 --> 00:32:58.472
You're going to have to let me know about that plan, because I'm eating a little

00:32:58.472 --> 00:33:02.672
too much ice cream these days to think that I'm going to make 102. too.

00:33:02.992 --> 00:33:08.212
But we are a 50-50 country in many ways.

00:33:08.252 --> 00:33:13.232
The problem is that all of the power is held on one side of the aisle,

00:33:13.232 --> 00:33:19.492
and the structural problems in American politics are only getting more complicated

00:33:19.492 --> 00:33:24.612
and falling more in line with the electoral interests of the Republican Party.

00:33:24.872 --> 00:33:30.732
We have seen the impact of their gerrymanders on state legislatures and the U.S. House.

00:33:31.892 --> 00:33:36.492
Those gerrymanders are probably only going to strengthen over the coming years

00:33:36.492 --> 00:33:43.492
as they remap Ohio and as we see cases before the Supreme Court right now on

00:33:43.492 --> 00:33:46.712
Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act and redistricting from Alabama, Georgia,

00:33:47.012 --> 00:33:54.292
and Louisiana that I fear will not go the way that those who believe in multiracial

00:33:54.292 --> 00:33:57.872
democracy would like them to. The U.S.

00:33:58.012 --> 00:34:07.812
Senate is a deeply flawed and unequal body, and that's going to become even more so.

00:34:07.812 --> 00:34:12.212
By 2035, it said that 70% of the country will live in 15 states,

00:34:12.752 --> 00:34:18.172
which means that 70% of us will have 30 senators, and the other smaller part

00:34:18.172 --> 00:34:23.412
will have 70, which means those whiter, more rural, smaller states are going

00:34:23.412 --> 00:34:26.952
to have real outsized power.

00:34:27.132 --> 00:34:32.672
And when you factor the filibuster in there as well, it almost becomes a majoritarian

00:34:32.672 --> 00:34:38.112
veto power. When you look at what's likely to happen after the 2030 census with

00:34:38.112 --> 00:34:42.112
population shifts in the country, I think you're going to see additional...

00:34:43.091 --> 00:34:50.711
Congressional seats and therefore additional electoral votes move from the blue

00:34:50.711 --> 00:34:58.011
wall states of Illinois, Michigan, Pennsylvania, New York, Rhode Island.

00:34:58.371 --> 00:35:05.411
And those votes are likely to go to Texas and Arizona and Florida,

00:35:05.411 --> 00:35:08.991
which is going to change the very nature of presidential races.

00:35:08.991 --> 00:35:11.551
It's going to make it harder for Democrats to take the House,

00:35:11.731 --> 00:35:16.611
not because there aren't Democrats in those states or not because those states

00:35:16.611 --> 00:35:21.091
aren't oftentimes 50-50 or 52-48 states,

00:35:21.091 --> 00:35:24.451
but because when you have the power to draw the lines and make the rules,

00:35:24.791 --> 00:35:27.671
you take all of the seats and all of the power.

00:35:27.671 --> 00:35:36.951
So when you factor in where we are and where things are going with the Senate, with the courts,

00:35:37.531 --> 00:35:40.311
with the Electoral College, with the state of redistricting,

00:35:40.711 --> 00:35:47.811
I think Democrats have got a very difficult hand to play over the next coming years.

00:35:47.811 --> 00:35:52.891
They're going to need a strategy of their own, and they're going to have to

00:35:52.891 --> 00:35:57.391
really start talking and thinking about how to fix these structural problems,

00:35:57.691 --> 00:36:01.051
how to reform them in a time where they don't have a lot of power,

00:36:01.231 --> 00:36:07.151
which means convincing Americans that this has to be done and that it has to happen now.

00:36:08.171 --> 00:36:15.051
All right, David. So I try to base the questions not just on anti-democratic,

00:36:15.271 --> 00:36:21.751
but also rat-effed, which is the other book that deals with the redistricting.

00:36:21.931 --> 00:36:27.731
So how can people get in touch with you? How can people get copies of both of those books and.

00:36:28.607 --> 00:36:34.147
Yeah, just how can people reach out to you? Yeah, those books are pretty available

00:36:34.147 --> 00:36:38.247
wherever it is you like to buy your books, whether it's in your local bookstore,

00:36:38.507 --> 00:36:46.787
whether it's on Amazon or Barnes & Noble or bookshop.org, all places you can find these books.

00:36:46.787 --> 00:36:50.747
You can find me on the socials.

00:36:50.927 --> 00:36:56.547
You know, I'm not up there as my pages on Twitter, on Blue Sky,

00:36:56.747 --> 00:37:00.327
on the like. You can find contact info as well.

00:37:00.487 --> 00:37:03.027
I'm right here. Always happy to talk.

00:37:03.467 --> 00:37:10.027
Well, David Daley, I always like, I love this podcast that I do because I always

00:37:10.027 --> 00:37:12.387
get to talk to people who are much smarter than me.

00:37:12.847 --> 00:37:16.587
And you definitely fit in that category. And I'm honored that you took the time

00:37:16.587 --> 00:37:24.807
to be able to talk to the audience about redistricting and the Shelby v.

00:37:24.927 --> 00:37:29.367
Holder case. because, and I really encourage people to get these books,

00:37:29.507 --> 00:37:31.887
Anti-Democratic and Rat-Effed.

00:37:32.107 --> 00:37:36.527
If you, I know people are like, Rat-Effed, you got to see the title,

00:37:36.667 --> 00:37:37.707
then you'll understand what I'm saying.

00:37:38.087 --> 00:37:44.187
But I think that will give people an understanding of how part of the main reason

00:37:44.187 --> 00:37:45.547
why we're here, what we're here.

00:37:46.007 --> 00:37:50.967
And I'm glad that you took the time out to do the research and to put it in

00:37:50.967 --> 00:37:55.947
such a form where even dummies like me can understand it. So thank you for that,

00:37:55.947 --> 00:37:57.247
and thank you for coming on the podcast.

00:37:58.087 --> 00:38:00.787
Really a pleasure. Thank you for having me on. All right, guys,

00:38:00.807 --> 00:38:02.387
and we're going to catch you all on the other side.

00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:21.040
Music.

00:38:19.187 --> 00:38:23.207
We'll see you next week. All right. And we are back.

00:38:23.347 --> 00:38:28.447
And so now it's time for my next guest, Janae Lewis.

00:38:29.027 --> 00:38:35.967
Jeanné Lewis serves as the CEO of Faith in Public Life. She is a nonprofit executive,

00:38:36.447 --> 00:38:41.007
faith-based organizer, and an authority on creating empowered communities.

00:38:41.347 --> 00:38:45.507
She has dedicated her career to building bridges, closing equity gaps,

00:38:45.567 --> 00:38:51.307
and creating policies that lead to strong, thriving, and self-determined cities.

00:38:51.947 --> 00:38:56.007
Jeanné received her undergraduate degree from Washington University in St.

00:38:56.087 --> 00:39:01.747
Louis and holds an MA in conflict resolution from Antioch University Midwest. West.

00:39:02.427 --> 00:39:06.287
Jeanné resides in Washington, D.C. and is a member of the D.C.

00:39:06.487 --> 00:39:11.487
Working Families Party, St. Augustine Catholic Parish, and Songrise,

00:39:11.707 --> 00:39:14.587
a women's social justice a cappella group.

00:39:14.847 --> 00:39:19.067
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:39:19.067 --> 00:39:23.587
on this podcast, Jeanné Lewis. Thank you.

00:39:24.080 --> 00:39:33.680
Music.

00:39:33.522 --> 00:39:39.442
All right, Jeanné Lewis, Madam President, how you doing? You doing good this Valentine's Day?

00:39:39.782 --> 00:39:44.882
You know, I'm wearing my red lipstick. I'm doing all right on Valentine's Day. I'm doing all right.

00:39:46.002 --> 00:39:50.322
Yeah, I don't think the rules are the same like in St. Patrick's Day where people

00:39:50.322 --> 00:39:53.162
get to pinch you and all that kind of stuff if you're not wearing the right color.

00:39:53.982 --> 00:39:58.162
But, you know, some of us, I'm glad at least somebody's got a Valentine,

00:39:58.522 --> 00:40:00.262
but that'll be a whole nother show for another day.

00:40:01.162 --> 00:40:05.562
I'm glad you're on because I wanted you to come on.

00:40:05.962 --> 00:40:12.782
There were several guests that I've had on before that I wanted to come on after this whole thing.

00:40:12.902 --> 00:40:15.182
And I just started thinking about who should I line up?

00:40:15.322 --> 00:40:21.842
And you were one of the people that I wanted to get on because you come at public

00:40:21.842 --> 00:40:23.742
policy from a different angle.

00:40:24.622 --> 00:40:31.882
You've made it your life's work to incorporate faith and into the political discussion.

00:40:32.302 --> 00:40:38.342
And so I definitely think that we need people of faith in this moment.

00:40:38.682 --> 00:40:43.042
And so I just wanted you to come on and kind of talk about how we can,

00:40:43.442 --> 00:40:49.042
you know, what you're doing primarily to try to navigate through this.

00:40:49.042 --> 00:40:55.202
So in the beginning, as always, I throw a quote at the guests to start an icebreaker,

00:40:55.422 --> 00:40:57.602
but I've got two icebreakers now.

00:40:58.022 --> 00:41:03.462
So the first one's going to be the quote, and it's from Proverbs 2410,

00:41:03.462 --> 00:41:06.522
and I use the New King James Version.

00:41:06.942 --> 00:41:12.462
It says, if you faint in the day of adversity, your strength is small.

00:41:12.802 --> 00:41:18.862
What does that quote mean to you? Well, I think that this proverb to me,

00:41:19.342 --> 00:41:25.382
especially in our current climate, means that we have to hold the balance between

00:41:25.382 --> 00:41:30.362
preparing for what we do not know and responding to what is in front of us.

00:41:30.782 --> 00:41:36.902
For years, decades, many of us have been doing work on racial equity.

00:41:37.462 --> 00:41:44.322
Wealth equity, calling out oppression and authoritarianism whenever we see it.

00:41:44.402 --> 00:41:51.762
And trying to train others to be prepared for that, how to fight that,

00:41:52.002 --> 00:41:53.802
how to offer alternatives to that.

00:41:54.322 --> 00:41:58.382
And that preparation, that training builds strength.

00:41:59.042 --> 00:42:04.342
So when adversity comes, hopefully one is prepared, one has trained.

00:42:04.602 --> 00:42:07.862
And I think many people in the U.S.

00:42:08.042 --> 00:42:12.662
Have trained for this moment, even without realizing it, because many people

00:42:12.662 --> 00:42:14.782
in the U.S. have been suffering for a very long time.

00:42:14.982 --> 00:42:17.762
And so we have found ways to be resilient and to cope.

00:42:19.209 --> 00:42:26.389
If our strength fails in this moment, you know, I don't think that any of us honestly can be judged.

00:42:26.709 --> 00:42:32.629
This is a very traumatic and trying time for everyone in our country.

00:42:33.289 --> 00:42:38.709
And I think as human beings, we all have limits and we all have breaking points.

00:42:38.709 --> 00:42:44.309
But my hope is that we can draw on the training that we have done and also from

00:42:44.309 --> 00:42:49.769
our ancestors in this moment in order to be resilient and continue to create

00:42:49.769 --> 00:42:52.049
the society that we all want. Yeah.

00:42:53.589 --> 00:43:02.469
So my next icebreaker is something I've come to call 20 questions.

00:43:03.149 --> 00:43:08.209
So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

00:43:08.889 --> 00:43:15.549
Five. So this is your question. What do you think we should decide at the local

00:43:15.549 --> 00:43:19.709
or state levels versus the federal level?

00:43:21.049 --> 00:43:24.049
That's a hard question. And it could be a long list.

00:43:26.469 --> 00:43:32.269
I think the way our government is structured and is intended to function works.

00:43:32.269 --> 00:43:38.029
I don't see decisions at the state level or federal level being either or.

00:43:38.029 --> 00:43:42.989
I think the state level and the federal level create checks and balances when

00:43:42.989 --> 00:43:44.269
they function at its best.

00:43:45.129 --> 00:43:54.849
So ideally, we at the state level are making decisions about our schools, our local budgets,

00:43:55.709 --> 00:44:00.909
our infrastructure, our local taxes.

00:44:02.029 --> 00:44:04.709
And at the federal level, there

00:44:04.709 --> 00:44:10.909
are guardrails and guidelines that continue to unite us as a country.

00:44:11.369 --> 00:44:16.089
I don't think that there are, in my opinion, I don't think that there are any

00:44:16.089 --> 00:44:22.269
decisions that only the federal government should decide or only the state level should decide.

00:44:22.269 --> 00:44:26.709
I think we need to be in conversation with each other at those two levels to

00:44:26.709 --> 00:44:28.629
make the best outcome for our communities.

00:44:29.529 --> 00:44:33.729
Yeah. And. I didn't know that that was going to be the question I was going

00:44:33.729 --> 00:44:36.269
to ask you, but. Neither did I.

00:44:36.589 --> 00:44:42.629
Yeah, that's kind of the whole point of it. But it's very pertinent to where

00:44:42.629 --> 00:44:51.069
we're going, because, you know, one of the issues that y'all deal with a lot is immigration.

00:44:51.229 --> 00:44:58.769
And one of them, the other one is like reproductive rights. And so that's been kind of a debate.

00:44:59.149 --> 00:45:05.929
The current administration believes that reproductive rights should be strictly a state issue.

00:45:06.909 --> 00:45:14.029
And traditionally, immigration has been strictly a federal issue that this administration

00:45:14.029 --> 00:45:17.369
wants the states to be more engaged in.

00:45:18.552 --> 00:45:21.912
So I guess I can go ahead with this question since, you know,

00:45:22.052 --> 00:45:24.032
we kind of opened that door.

00:45:24.372 --> 00:45:30.832
In light of the first few weeks, how much of a challenge you all facing on those

00:45:30.832 --> 00:45:33.732
issues and how do you plan to overcome those challenges?

00:45:34.332 --> 00:45:40.552
Well, I'll start with immigration. Our work over the last several years has

00:45:40.552 --> 00:45:44.492
been ringing the alarm around political violence broadly.

00:45:44.492 --> 00:45:50.972
We have seen attacks on elected officials, attempted kidnappings, voter intimidation.

00:45:51.252 --> 00:45:58.012
All of that attempt to interrupt our elections process is political violence.

00:45:58.012 --> 00:46:06.012
But it is also political violence to vilify immigrants, to demonize trans people,

00:46:06.592 --> 00:46:15.152
to say that any subset of our country is a villain or unwelcome or harmful,

00:46:15.552 --> 00:46:20.012
and judging people based on their identities and who they are,

00:46:20.132 --> 00:46:25.872
as opposed to what they do and how they contribute or don't contribute to society.

00:46:26.632 --> 00:46:30.312
So for us, this is a continuation of the work we've done on political violence.

00:46:30.532 --> 00:46:36.432
And sadly, immigrants are one of the groups that are targeted most right now.

00:46:36.712 --> 00:46:39.332
So we are seeing mass deportations.

00:46:40.152 --> 00:46:42.952
We're seeing increased law enforcement

00:46:42.952 --> 00:46:46.772
through ICE. We are seeing the militarization of law enforcement.

00:46:47.072 --> 00:46:51.152
And those acts of political violence strip people of their dignity.

00:46:51.232 --> 00:46:56.572
They disrupt families and they are harming communities. They're harming whole communities.

00:46:56.812 --> 00:47:00.972
And it undermines the moral foundation of our country. So as faith leaders,

00:47:00.972 --> 00:47:06.652
we are working to address that and connect the dots for people around how this

00:47:06.652 --> 00:47:08.932
is not an individual opinion.

00:47:08.932 --> 00:47:14.492
This is not personal preference, but this is a continuation of violence against

00:47:14.492 --> 00:47:16.092
a particular group of people.

00:47:16.092 --> 00:47:21.172
And if immigrants are targeted now, any of us, no matter how we identify,

00:47:21.372 --> 00:47:25.552
could be targeted tomorrow, and it does not reflect the values of our country.

00:47:26.295 --> 00:47:29.935
So our faith leaders are speaking out about that, as I am with you today,

00:47:30.155 --> 00:47:35.315
speaking to the press, speaking to their congregations to help people make meaning

00:47:35.315 --> 00:47:37.575
of this moment and to denounce it.

00:47:37.835 --> 00:47:43.515
So that's what we're doing around immigration right now, around comprehensive

00:47:43.515 --> 00:47:48.215
reproductive health care, which some folks use the term reproductive rights.

00:47:48.375 --> 00:47:49.595
Others say reproductive justice.

00:47:49.995 --> 00:47:57.535
Our approach to this is looking at all of the issues around reproductive health care. The same is true.

00:47:57.855 --> 00:48:04.155
This issue has been distorted and weaponized in order to divide the country.

00:48:04.375 --> 00:48:13.555
And the perspective of saying that reproductive access around a wide range of

00:48:13.555 --> 00:48:19.635
issues should be restricted does not reflect the opinions of most people of faith in the country.

00:48:19.635 --> 00:48:23.475
Yet Christianity is being used to justify these decisions.

00:48:23.835 --> 00:48:29.975
And so we saw last summer in local elections that people of faith and people

00:48:29.975 --> 00:48:35.255
who are not of faith really rejected some of the more fringe and radical ideas

00:48:35.255 --> 00:48:38.575
about restricting access to reproductive health care. Okay.

00:48:39.495 --> 00:48:46.755
You said in an interview that beauty, the beauty and opportunity in drawing

00:48:46.755 --> 00:48:50.275
on our faith traditions is to give one another courage.

00:48:50.635 --> 00:48:55.935
How important is courage right now in our current political environment?

00:48:55.935 --> 00:49:06.235
And, you know, I mean, I like the way that you identify what's going on with

00:49:06.235 --> 00:49:08.015
immigration as political violence.

00:49:08.155 --> 00:49:17.315
I think a lot of people are trying not to engage in politics a lot because we

00:49:17.315 --> 00:49:23.075
got some poll I looked at and talked to another guest about last year.

00:49:23.695 --> 00:49:26.855
About 10 to 11 percent of the population thinks

00:49:26.855 --> 00:49:30.935
that political violence is the way to solve the problem so

00:49:30.935 --> 00:49:33.915
you know a lot of people are like yeah

00:49:33.915 --> 00:49:41.175
i'm not trying to i'll go vote if i do vote but you know don't ask me any questions

00:49:41.175 --> 00:49:45.875
don't you know just i just want to keep it moving because i don't want to take

00:49:45.875 --> 00:49:51.055
the chance that out of the next 10 people i meet one of them is like,

00:49:51.575 --> 00:49:54.035
yeah, you know, they're going to confront you.

00:49:54.195 --> 00:49:59.835
So that's why I wanted to ask you as a political leader and a faith leader.

00:50:00.665 --> 00:50:03.985
About the importance of courage during this time?

00:50:04.765 --> 00:50:11.445
Courage is always important because when we talk about transforming society

00:50:11.445 --> 00:50:17.565
for the better, for social justice, for human rights so that people can thrive.

00:50:18.245 --> 00:50:24.145
It will and it does require courage to do something differently because the

00:50:24.145 --> 00:50:28.185
way that we have been operating, it has not gotten us there yet.

00:50:28.185 --> 00:50:32.125
So we have to learn how to grow and evolve And that is challenging.

00:50:32.385 --> 00:50:37.245
So in this moment, we think about courage as advocating for what is right,

00:50:37.485 --> 00:50:44.805
speaking out around our values, denouncing harm and bad policies and bad decisions that are being made.

00:50:44.805 --> 00:50:47.745
And that is required and that takes courage.

00:50:47.985 --> 00:50:55.125
And there's also internal work that has to be done around drawing courage to

00:50:55.125 --> 00:50:58.345
address and look our fears in the face,

00:50:58.505 --> 00:51:03.665
to continue to engage with people that we disagree with.

00:51:03.665 --> 00:51:10.385
And I want to make a distinction between the everyday voter who has a different

00:51:10.385 --> 00:51:16.685
opinion from us and the folks who are now in power in our government who are

00:51:16.685 --> 00:51:21.665
making laws that oppress us and firing people and taking our data,

00:51:21.865 --> 00:51:23.505
two different groups of people.

00:51:23.505 --> 00:51:30.365
But when we encounter our neighbor, it requires courage to remain open enough

00:51:30.365 --> 00:51:35.665
to discern whether they truly mean us harm or whether they have a different perspective.

00:51:35.925 --> 00:51:39.625
And if they have a different perspective, it takes courage to have a level of

00:51:39.625 --> 00:51:44.205
vulnerability to explain how their perspective might be causing us harm in this moment.

00:51:44.765 --> 00:51:49.245
That, in my opinion, is deep spiritual work, and we must draw on our faith traditions

00:51:49.245 --> 00:51:54.765
and our practice to give us the courage to do that, and also the wisdom to make that discernment.

00:51:55.025 --> 00:51:58.765
Because I would never say, and I do not believe, that we should engage with

00:51:58.765 --> 00:52:03.285
individuals who want to harm us, who mean us harm.

00:52:04.249 --> 00:52:10.349
But I do think that many of the people who voted differently from us,

00:52:10.549 --> 00:52:17.749
who have stereotypes and are ignorant about immigrants and LGBTQ people and

00:52:17.749 --> 00:52:20.749
Black people and women's health care,

00:52:20.949 --> 00:52:25.829
I don't know that all of those people are leading with an active hatred towards us.

00:52:25.829 --> 00:52:31.409
And there's a courage and a spiritual discipline to remember that they, too,

00:52:31.529 --> 00:52:39.469
are children of God and to find ways to be honest and call them back into right

00:52:39.469 --> 00:52:42.889
relationship with us as opposed to demonizing them.

00:52:43.089 --> 00:52:48.389
So this is deep spiritual work. And I think that spiritual work leads us to

00:52:48.389 --> 00:52:50.769
courage, but also leads us to wisdom and discernment.

00:52:50.769 --> 00:52:57.689
Well, speaking of deep spiritual work, there's a perceived tension in the political

00:52:57.689 --> 00:53:03.709
diaspora between black Protestants, Muslims and Jews coming off the last election.

00:53:04.169 --> 00:53:10.209
Do you perceive that as well? And how do you navigate through that?

00:53:11.370 --> 00:53:17.270
Yes, there is a tension between those three groups because of what's happening

00:53:17.270 --> 00:53:19.430
and what has happened in the Middle East.

00:53:20.270 --> 00:53:28.030
I think the challenge around this tension is that it is old wounds.

00:53:28.710 --> 00:53:37.290
The events of October 7th, a year and a half ago, cracked open wounds that are 100 years old.

00:53:37.290 --> 00:53:43.910
And quite frankly, that across our interfaith coalitions, we have never properly

00:53:43.910 --> 00:53:45.350
dealt with, not at scale.

00:53:45.630 --> 00:53:52.050
And so those wounds have been cracked open and we are still navigating the aftermath of that.

00:53:52.250 --> 00:53:57.010
What I see happening in our communities is an expression of trauma.

00:53:57.170 --> 00:54:01.430
So not only the actual trauma that faith leaders across those traditions have

00:54:01.430 --> 00:54:05.850
experienced, but the trauma of our collective ancestors coming into play.

00:54:05.850 --> 00:54:09.350
And so it has been difficult to navigate that.

00:54:09.810 --> 00:54:15.870
My approach is that we continue to keep our eyes on shared goals,

00:54:15.870 --> 00:54:21.570
but we have to pause long enough in those conversations to acknowledge the hurt

00:54:21.570 --> 00:54:25.650
and the harm that people feel and the trauma that people have experienced.

00:54:25.650 --> 00:54:31.770
And that's a very delicate balance. It requires, I think, smaller group conversations.

00:54:31.770 --> 00:54:38.350
It requires a sharing and a bridging of trust that individuals have built over time.

00:54:38.350 --> 00:54:44.330
The ways in which I have seen us deal with this tension well are among people

00:54:44.330 --> 00:54:47.150
who have already been in relationship over years,

00:54:47.150 --> 00:54:51.970
who have already built up a level of trust across faith traditions and are leveraging

00:54:51.970 --> 00:54:56.050
that trust to expand the conversation in the circle slowly but surely.

00:54:56.710 --> 00:55:03.710
I think there's a challenge when we try to have the conversation about these

00:55:03.710 --> 00:55:09.810
very old wounds en masse in public with large groups of people at the same time.

00:55:10.330 --> 00:55:15.270
I think it limits us because we are very much all deep in our trauma,

00:55:15.270 --> 00:55:17.050
but I think it can be done.

00:55:17.230 --> 00:55:20.790
And I also want to say that there's opportunity in this moment.

00:55:20.790 --> 00:55:25.810
There's opportunity in this tension because the issues and the pain and the

00:55:25.810 --> 00:55:27.950
concerns that people are lifting up are real.

00:55:28.150 --> 00:55:31.890
The injustice that people are lifting up is real.

00:55:32.330 --> 00:55:36.310
The contradictions and the paradox that people are lifting up,

00:55:36.430 --> 00:55:38.330
these things are real and they need to be addressed.

00:55:38.550 --> 00:55:43.210
So we have an opportunity in this moment, but I think it requires an honoring

00:55:43.210 --> 00:55:48.410
of the trauma that all three of these groups are feeling and the trust of interpersonal

00:55:48.410 --> 00:55:50.170
relationships to help navigate through it.

00:55:50.790 --> 00:55:55.690
Yeah, I totally agree with that because, you know, I kind of addressed that

00:55:55.690 --> 00:56:00.090
near the end of my last episode because—.

00:56:01.755 --> 00:56:06.895
There was a young man who had said some real, real nasty things about the previous

00:56:06.895 --> 00:56:11.855
vice president, Kamala Harris, and then and he's Palestinian.

00:56:12.455 --> 00:56:18.055
And then he's been on social media reaching out and saying, hey,

00:56:18.235 --> 00:56:24.735
we all need to come together to deal with, you know, turning Gaza into a new

00:56:24.735 --> 00:56:26.215
gentrification project.

00:56:26.875 --> 00:56:30.875
And and the black folks on there were like, really?

00:56:31.695 --> 00:56:35.415
And I'm being nice with it, the really part, because they said some really,

00:56:35.575 --> 00:56:36.695
really vile things to him.

00:56:37.095 --> 00:56:41.175
And, you know, and I just and I started thinking. And so when I said,

00:56:41.335 --> 00:56:46.155
well, I need to talk to Sister Lewis about this particular thing,

00:56:46.255 --> 00:56:52.375
because I just remember I just and I think I mentioned in the last interview,

00:56:52.515 --> 00:56:56.095
I just remember when we had interfaith group.

00:56:56.095 --> 00:56:58.295
We were working with in Jackson, Mississippi.

00:56:58.695 --> 00:57:04.155
And one of the meeting days was 9-11 in 2001.

00:57:04.915 --> 00:57:09.815
And the imam was like, had two phones going and he was just like,

00:57:09.875 --> 00:57:13.975
and he couldn't even stay for the meeting, you know, and we didn't stay much

00:57:13.975 --> 00:57:18.655
longer after he left, but it was just, you know, that was one of those moments.

00:57:19.575 --> 00:57:25.395
And I looked at the last election and the discussions afterwards words on social

00:57:25.395 --> 00:57:28.475
media, that that's another moment.

00:57:28.775 --> 00:57:33.475
And like you said, it just opens up, it's just opened up old wounds.

00:57:33.855 --> 00:57:39.895
And I think the approach of being in small groups of trust, as you put it,

00:57:40.555 --> 00:57:42.575
is really the best way to go.

00:57:42.755 --> 00:57:47.055
But you can't get a small moment of trust on social media.

00:57:48.335 --> 00:57:54.155
Correct. Correct. I think that there is some opportunity in the small groups.

00:57:54.155 --> 00:58:00.755
And I think it is important to call out the big geopolitical injustice.

00:58:01.095 --> 00:58:06.135
I think the challenge that we're facing is that in a lot of our public spaces,

00:58:06.135 --> 00:58:09.475
people are being asked to choose a side.

00:58:09.655 --> 00:58:16.775
It's a hard binary, as opposed to understanding that the region is rife with trauma.

00:58:16.775 --> 00:58:23.295
And there are many other actors, including the British, including evangelical

00:58:23.295 --> 00:58:27.135
Christians in the U.S., including other Arab nations,

00:58:27.815 --> 00:58:32.755
including China, et cetera, and so forth, who have hands and influence in that region.

00:58:32.975 --> 00:58:40.395
And so I think when we have big public dialogue, it is ideal if we also So name

00:58:40.395 --> 00:58:44.695
those other factors instead of saying it's this side or that side, one or the other.

00:58:44.835 --> 00:58:48.035
And that often doesn't happen, which I think reinforces some of the trauma.

00:58:49.155 --> 00:58:54.335
All right. So and first of all, I should have I should have said this at the beginning.

00:58:56.156 --> 00:59:01.656
And I want to, I want to kind of, well, not kind of, I want to apologize to

00:59:01.656 --> 00:59:03.936
you about the tenor of the questions.

00:59:04.376 --> 00:59:11.536
And the reason why I'm saying that is because, you know, I try to have conversations

00:59:11.536 --> 00:59:17.336
with my guests, even on serious matters where, you know, it's,

00:59:18.216 --> 00:59:20.256
you know, there's some uplift in there.

00:59:21.676 --> 00:59:26.436
And when I was going over the questions and I reached out to your assistant,

00:59:26.616 --> 00:59:32.296
Ethel, about it, and I was like, I said, oh, man, this is some heavy stuff I'm

00:59:32.296 --> 00:59:33.536
about to ask Sister Lewis.

00:59:34.716 --> 00:59:37.636
All this stuff. Well, it's a heavy time. Yeah. It's a heavy time.

00:59:37.756 --> 00:59:42.436
Yeah. So I just wanted to kind of throw that out there because some people are

00:59:42.436 --> 00:59:45.396
like going, man, he's hitting hub with these questions and stuff.

00:59:45.516 --> 00:59:47.236
It's like, oh, my God. Anyway.

00:59:48.276 --> 00:59:53.656
It's all good. It's all good. It's a happy time, but we have reason for hope.

00:59:54.016 --> 00:59:57.656
You know, being here in Washington, D.C., I don't think most people in the country

00:59:57.656 --> 01:00:00.656
see this, but people are protesting every day.

01:00:00.816 --> 01:00:06.316
People are speaking out. People are very clear that what is happening is not

01:00:06.316 --> 01:00:09.236
acceptable and does not reflect who we are as a country.

01:00:09.476 --> 01:00:14.176
And that gives me hope. Right. People are not going to sit back and just allow

01:00:14.176 --> 01:00:15.916
our democracy to fall away.

01:00:16.256 --> 01:00:19.956
That gives me hope. So we have many, many reasons to hope in this moment.

01:00:20.796 --> 01:00:28.376
And I'm glad you answered it that way because one of the concerns I have is that.

01:00:29.366 --> 01:00:37.426
We had 77 million people vote for Donald Trump and he is considered the avatar

01:00:37.426 --> 01:00:39.246
for Christian nationalism.

01:00:39.706 --> 01:00:46.266
Yeah. And a lot of people, especially people that look like us, are like going really,

01:00:46.966 --> 01:00:52.086
you know, and, but you had answered it in some part too, because it's like when

01:00:52.086 --> 01:00:58.466
we engage people, we have to engage people where they are instead of how we perceive them.

01:00:58.466 --> 01:01:05.706
And I think that if if we actually have conversations and we actually engage people,

01:01:06.046 --> 01:01:11.526
that also builds the hope, too, because it's like once you realize that not

01:01:11.526 --> 01:01:15.886
everybody that voted for Donald Trump is a Christian nationalist,

01:01:16.086 --> 01:01:18.786
not everybody that voted for Donald Trump is a racist.

01:01:18.786 --> 01:01:23.166
Not everybody that voted for Donald Trump is a sexist or whatever,

01:01:23.166 --> 01:01:26.526
whatever negative connotation is associated with him.

01:01:27.466 --> 01:01:30.466
You know, it's like there are literally people that was like,

01:01:30.926 --> 01:01:35.146
well, I just thought that he would make our groceries cheaper.

01:01:35.406 --> 01:01:40.306
I thought that he could handle certain things a little different than the vice president.

01:01:40.306 --> 01:01:44.526
I mean, you know, and and once you have those kind of conversations,

01:01:45.046 --> 01:01:50.886
then the hope builds us like, OK, well, next go around, we can probably be on

01:01:50.886 --> 01:01:54.026
the same call, you know, on the same coalition of voters.

01:01:55.206 --> 01:01:58.966
And I don't know if you agree with that, but that's kind of like my thinking.

01:01:58.966 --> 01:02:02.606
Well, I can't predict how people will vote next time around,

01:02:02.786 --> 01:02:09.646
but I 100% agree that people voting for Donald Trump were not necessarily voting

01:02:09.646 --> 01:02:10.826
for Christian nationalism.

01:02:11.126 --> 01:02:15.066
Now, there are many people who are voting for Christian nationalism,

01:02:15.066 --> 01:02:18.726
but I think the context for that is important.

01:02:18.986 --> 01:02:21.586
There has been a decades-long movement happening.

01:02:22.074 --> 01:02:28.274
To mislead people, quite frankly, about what Christianity is and who Jesus is.

01:02:28.434 --> 01:02:35.174
And so there are many Christian nationalists who believe that this idea of authoritarianism

01:02:35.174 --> 01:02:37.294
and nationalism is what Jesus wants.

01:02:37.454 --> 01:02:44.474
They have been miseducated. They have been converted into a distortion of Christianity.

01:02:44.754 --> 01:02:50.394
So if that is the case, then there's also an opportunity to introduce people

01:02:50.394 --> 01:02:52.954
to the fullness of Jesus, right?

01:02:53.114 --> 01:02:59.414
To a more anchored and more ancient and more true version of who Jesus is.

01:02:59.574 --> 01:03:02.294
And those people may vote differently.

01:03:02.514 --> 01:03:07.214
But I think the opportunity for us in this moment where Christian nationalism

01:03:07.214 --> 01:03:12.634
is on the rise and religious nationalism globally is on the rise is to remember

01:03:12.634 --> 01:03:14.654
that no matter who we are,

01:03:14.834 --> 01:03:17.534
our ancestors have faced something similar.

01:03:17.734 --> 01:03:22.774
And so we can learn from them. we can learn what faith-rooted leadership looked

01:03:22.774 --> 01:03:27.874
like from Ella Baker and Thurgood Marshall and obviously Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

01:03:28.154 --> 01:03:34.794
And Gandhi and others, that there is wisdom in our communities and in our faith

01:03:34.794 --> 01:03:41.334
traditions to help us navigate this moment, not only to support one another and heal one another,

01:03:41.554 --> 01:03:49.254
but also to thrive and create a different vision for what the United States is and can be.

01:03:49.454 --> 01:03:55.654
So I am very hopeful in this moment. And I think that as we continue to be bold

01:03:55.654 --> 01:04:02.414
and courageous about saying what that vision is of community and belonging and unity,

01:04:02.694 --> 01:04:07.374
people will respond to it because genuinely that's, I believe, what people want. Yeah.

01:04:07.714 --> 01:04:10.474
So I'm going to close with this question.

01:04:11.214 --> 01:04:21.934
And in my latest iteration of podcasts, I've been promoting this concept of

01:04:21.934 --> 01:04:25.514
an American leader because I sit and watch,

01:04:25.754 --> 01:04:27.714
you know, having been an elected official myself,

01:04:28.034 --> 01:04:32.514
having had aspirations to serve in Congress.

01:04:33.474 --> 01:04:36.194
I'm looking at the people up there now, and I'm like going...

01:04:37.531 --> 01:04:41.431
If I was still up there, I'd be losing my mind. I'd be kind of like Mitch McConnell

01:04:41.431 --> 01:04:43.431
now. I'd just be the grouchy old dude up there.

01:04:43.591 --> 01:04:48.011
It's like, you know, I'm not I'm not trying to support anything anybody wanted at this point.

01:04:48.151 --> 01:04:53.551
I just want to get out of here. But I believe that a new American leader,

01:04:53.611 --> 01:04:57.431
and that's what I've been pushing, a new American leader should practice accountability,

01:04:57.811 --> 01:05:01.211
embrace our diversity, fight for justice and equity,

01:05:02.231 --> 01:05:07.991
promote inclusiveness, minimize wealth disparities, and convince us to abandon our grievances.

01:05:07.991 --> 01:05:15.051
Because I think grievance is like the, I don't want to say evil,

01:05:15.211 --> 01:05:19.371
but the vice, I guess, that a lot of us fall into when we're voting.

01:05:19.371 --> 01:05:23.331
It's like, well, I don't like this. I'm going to vote for that person. Right.

01:05:24.611 --> 01:05:29.471
Is there anything that you envision? Is there anything that you'd like to add

01:05:29.471 --> 01:05:35.071
as far as what you would like to see as far as a leader is concerned in this country?

01:05:35.811 --> 01:05:38.871
Yes. I agree with your description.

01:05:38.891 --> 01:05:44.651
And I think that our faith traditions give us models around leaders who advance

01:05:44.651 --> 01:05:51.671
truth and leaders who are not seeking power for its own sake or for themselves,

01:05:51.671 --> 01:05:58.491
but are building power in order to steward our resources for the good of everyone.

01:05:58.491 --> 01:06:03.451
So that truth seeking, I think, is deeply important.

01:06:03.911 --> 01:06:09.191
Truth is complex. It is not fixed, especially when you add diversity and you

01:06:09.191 --> 01:06:10.711
add more perspectives to it.

01:06:10.951 --> 01:06:15.031
But leaders who are constantly seeking the truth and trying to bring that into

01:06:15.031 --> 01:06:20.291
light and make decisions stemming from truth, I think is key for this moment.

01:06:20.291 --> 01:06:25.151
And again, that stewardship, being a servant leader, understanding that being

01:06:25.151 --> 01:06:29.051
an elected official, even in my role leading an organization,

01:06:29.651 --> 01:06:35.331
any leadership role is really about stewarding the resources we have for the

01:06:35.331 --> 01:06:36.591
collective good of everyone.

01:06:37.751 --> 01:06:42.291
Yeah. So, okay. I can, I can add a couple of those on there. That sounds good.

01:06:42.791 --> 01:06:48.671
Yeah. Cause I mean, I just think that we, we, we, we're really devoid of that right now.

01:06:49.451 --> 01:06:53.431
I'm just, I just watch a whole lot of grandstanding and all that stuff.

01:06:53.571 --> 01:06:59.671
And it's not like, you know, like I have to remind people I served like 25 years

01:06:59.671 --> 01:07:06.311
ago. So it's hard to believe, but it's been 25 years since I was first elected to something. And...

01:07:07.869 --> 01:07:12.529
It's just, you know, so you had a few of those folks, but now it looks like

01:07:12.529 --> 01:07:15.329
that's the norm. And that just drives me absolutely nuts.

01:07:15.569 --> 01:07:19.109
So that's why I'm, you know, trying to promote people.

01:07:19.309 --> 01:07:26.069
And I'm glad that you you you're one of those models of leadership that that

01:07:26.069 --> 01:07:34.609
that people need to follow and embrace and continue to have your voice uplifted in the conversation.

01:07:35.449 --> 01:07:39.369
So speaking about uplifting, oh, you're welcome. Speaking about uplifting,

01:07:39.709 --> 01:07:41.489
how can people get in touch with you?

01:07:41.629 --> 01:07:44.269
How can people get involved with Faith in Public Life?

01:07:44.849 --> 01:07:46.909
Just go ahead and give me the whole spiel.

01:07:48.369 --> 01:07:54.669
Our website is faithinpubliclife.org. That is the best way to find us.

01:07:54.769 --> 01:07:58.309
All of our social media handles are there if you go on the site.

01:07:58.489 --> 01:08:01.829
And you can sign up for our mailing list if you want more information about

01:08:01.829 --> 01:08:03.889
our campaigns and the actions that we're doing.

01:08:04.529 --> 01:08:08.929
And we would love to hear from you. So send us a note, send us an email, find us online.

01:08:09.749 --> 01:08:14.389
Yeah, and just so y'all understand, if y'all were in Springfield,

01:08:14.489 --> 01:08:17.949
Ohio, when they were talking about folks eating dogs and cats and you saw these

01:08:17.949 --> 01:08:20.009
billboards going up saying, yeah, that's not true.

01:08:20.369 --> 01:08:23.909
That was Sister Lewis and her group, Faith.

01:08:24.109 --> 01:08:27.729
That was us. That was us in partnership with some other folks.

01:08:27.809 --> 01:08:30.209
I don't want to leave out other folks, but that was definitely us, yes.

01:08:30.389 --> 01:08:38.309
Yeah, so I just want people to understand And Sister Lewis and her organization

01:08:38.309 --> 01:08:41.629
have been on the ground and they've been doing the work.

01:08:41.849 --> 01:08:46.769
They may not get all the headlines because there's a lot of folks out there trying to get them.

01:08:47.329 --> 01:08:53.409
But the key thing for me and what I've always tried to do with my voice is to

01:08:53.409 --> 01:08:55.589
uplift other voices that are doing the work.

01:08:55.789 --> 01:09:00.709
So, Jeanné Lewis, I really appreciate you taking the time to come on.

01:09:01.820 --> 01:09:05.740
I want to thank your staff for being diligent and making sure that we got this thing working.

01:09:08.260 --> 01:09:11.920
And anytime, as always, anytime you want to come on, sister,

01:09:11.960 --> 01:09:14.980
I greatly appreciate it because I appreciate you and what you're doing.

01:09:15.220 --> 01:09:18.620
So anytime you want to come on, just let me know and we'll make that happen.

01:09:19.240 --> 01:09:22.300
Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure,

01:09:22.460 --> 01:09:23.260
Erik. Always a pleasure.

01:09:23.960 --> 01:09:26.260
All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:09:26.320 --> 01:09:37.200
Music.

01:09:37.980 --> 01:09:46.020
All right, and we are back. So I want to thank David Daley for coming on and

01:09:46.020 --> 01:09:49.060
Jeanné Lewis for coming on.

01:09:49.220 --> 01:09:52.400
David is an incredible writer.

01:09:53.840 --> 01:09:58.880
Please get anti-democratic if you want to understand the history of how we got

01:09:58.880 --> 01:10:02.200
to this point. And also rat-effed.

01:10:02.660 --> 01:10:06.780
You'll understand why I'm saying rat-effed if you actually get the book.

01:10:07.000 --> 01:10:14.460
But those two books really should be required reading for political science

01:10:14.460 --> 01:10:24.580
students and activists who want to understand the connection of how we got to this point in politics.

01:10:25.480 --> 01:10:33.360
And please support Faith in Public Life. Ms. Lewis has been with this organization for a while.

01:10:35.020 --> 01:10:42.260
When the founder of the organization decided to step down, Jeanné was the one

01:10:42.260 --> 01:10:46.900
that they picked to lead it into the next chapter.

01:10:47.420 --> 01:10:53.380
And she is a very, very solid sister. She is a very spiritual sister.

01:10:53.380 --> 01:10:59.600
And she's committed to lifting this nation up.

01:11:00.460 --> 01:11:09.120
And again, you know, I think in short time, her name is going to start appearing more and more.

01:11:09.320 --> 01:11:15.520
But again, the whole point is not about fame. The point is getting the work done.

01:11:16.820 --> 01:11:23.220
And regardless of whether the nation knows her or not, her work will speak for

01:11:23.220 --> 01:11:25.460
her and the organization.

01:11:25.860 --> 01:11:30.720
So please look up faithinpubliclife.org, I believe.

01:11:31.720 --> 01:11:34.340
That's the website. If I'm getting

01:11:34.340 --> 01:11:39.440
it wrong, y'all find it. But Faith in Public Life, that's the group.

01:11:39.900 --> 01:11:44.500
And support them in their efforts if you can.

01:11:48.700 --> 01:11:53.340
So, again, I just have a couple of things on my mind to kind of close out.

01:11:53.680 --> 01:11:57.420
One, I'm really, really pissed off about...

01:11:59.318 --> 01:12:07.058
This whole Doge thing, right? The Department of Government Efficiency.

01:12:07.658 --> 01:12:13.938
So let me break it down to folks so they understand. This is not an official

01:12:13.938 --> 01:12:16.298
government agency, right?

01:12:17.158 --> 01:12:26.758
Elon Musk donated $250 million through various ways to Donald Trump's campaign for president.

01:12:26.758 --> 01:12:36.938
And since Donald won, and he's the president again, he basically wanted to placate Elon.

01:12:37.738 --> 01:12:44.998
And one of, I guess, the issues that Elon supposedly has an axiogrin with is

01:12:44.998 --> 01:12:46.938
the size of the federal government.

01:12:48.558 --> 01:13:01.018
And being a CEO of corporations and how he came in and downsized Twitter and

01:13:01.018 --> 01:13:05.098
changed the name to X and what he's done at Tesla and all that,

01:13:05.238 --> 01:13:11.738
I guess he figures that he needed to or wanted to do that with the federal government.

01:13:11.738 --> 01:13:22.638
And so Donald Trump initially had him and Vivek Ramaswamy be the people to lead

01:13:22.638 --> 01:13:25.958
an effort to downsize the federal government.

01:13:28.018 --> 01:13:34.318
And in a world where we have intelligent discussions, in a world where we have

01:13:34.318 --> 01:13:36.218
true political discourse,

01:13:36.738 --> 01:13:43.878
there's room to have a discussion about downsizing the federal government. I've had some ideas.

01:13:44.258 --> 01:13:48.578
Some of my friends that have been in politics a long time have had some ideas.

01:13:49.358 --> 01:13:55.458
I'm sure there's some former presidents, if not all of them, that are still around.

01:13:55.958 --> 01:14:00.478
Have had some ideas of what to change as far as government's concerned.

01:14:00.718 --> 01:14:04.698
And traditionally, because of demands, government has gotten bigger.

01:14:05.198 --> 01:14:10.198
And that's the deal. It's like we have evolved since 1789.

01:14:11.498 --> 01:14:20.658
So, yeah, there were only a handful, literal handful of secretaries and government agencies.

01:14:21.338 --> 01:14:27.158
But as the country grew, so did the government. And there have been some people,

01:14:27.478 --> 01:14:32.838
even back then, when the Constitution was being drafted, that were concerned about that.

01:14:33.998 --> 01:14:35.898
But, you know...

01:14:37.037 --> 01:14:43.637
Sister Lewis talked about stewardship. And so part of the call and part of the

01:14:43.637 --> 01:14:48.257
political debate has been to what level of stewardship should the U.S. government be in?

01:14:50.137 --> 01:14:55.377
And how big does it have to be or can we do it in a smaller way?

01:14:55.517 --> 01:14:58.877
Those are good political discussions to have.

01:14:59.797 --> 01:15:07.877
I'm not trying to discredit that. But I am, however, pissed off about the way that it's happening.

01:15:10.537 --> 01:15:18.937
So when Elon first got this task, because it's not really an appointment,

01:15:18.937 --> 01:15:24.257
I guess you could say it's an appointment, but it's, again, we don't have a monarchy.

01:15:24.257 --> 01:15:28.137
So you just can't create a lordship and say, go handle that territory.

01:15:28.757 --> 01:15:30.317
That's not how it works here.

01:15:31.857 --> 01:15:37.097
I'll get I'm putting a pin on that because I'm gonna get back to that but it's

01:15:37.097 --> 01:15:43.077
like you know you can't since it's not an official agency you know there's no budget.

01:15:44.737 --> 01:15:48.457
So you know and there's no guidelines and,

01:15:49.172 --> 01:15:53.672
There's nobody checking to make sure that everything that they're doing is above

01:15:53.672 --> 01:15:56.092
board and within the confines of the law.

01:15:56.612 --> 01:16:00.812
So you basically got this private citizen who happens to be the richest person

01:16:00.812 --> 01:16:06.152
on the planet, bring 25 of his, quote unquote, best employees.

01:16:06.952 --> 01:16:11.012
And they're going into these different government agencies and just saying,

01:16:11.232 --> 01:16:12.592
hey, we need access to your data.

01:16:12.752 --> 01:16:15.092
Hey, we need access to this and da, da, da, da, da.

01:16:15.772 --> 01:16:20.212
And they're doing stuff. Now, Elon said he wasn't going to even have a report

01:16:20.212 --> 01:16:27.712
ready until our 250th anniversary. That was July the 4th, 2026.

01:16:28.412 --> 01:16:36.452
But it seems like what he intended to do was give a summary of what he did as

01:16:36.452 --> 01:16:39.912
opposed to a report about what needs to be fixed. Right.

01:16:40.472 --> 01:16:44.412
It's one thing to go in and have a fact-finding mission and say,

01:16:44.552 --> 01:16:49.352
ask some questions, compile some data, take a tour of the office.

01:16:50.252 --> 01:16:53.892
What does this job do? Who is that person? All that kind of stuff.

01:16:54.532 --> 01:16:58.192
Because I did that as an elected official. I went to all the state agencies

01:16:58.192 --> 01:17:02.732
in Mississippi and said, hey, look, you know, and just show me around and all this stuff.

01:17:02.912 --> 01:17:09.692
So when we had appropriations bills, I was able to vote in an educated manner.

01:17:09.912 --> 01:17:12.212
I knew about certain things, right?

01:17:12.912 --> 01:17:17.572
I knew that if we lost money in a particular agency, you know,

01:17:17.712 --> 01:17:23.892
or what impact it would have and, you know, where we needed to put more money

01:17:23.892 --> 01:17:25.312
in a particular agency, right?

01:17:25.572 --> 01:17:30.112
But he's not doing it. He's just going in and see what the nefarious part of

01:17:30.112 --> 01:17:38.712
it is, is that he's going after agencies that have a direct tie to his money, right?

01:17:39.432 --> 01:17:44.112
The Treasury, of course, right? Which means the IRS. He's gone after them.

01:17:44.552 --> 01:17:50.432
He went after, they say he's going to go in the Department of Defense.

01:17:50.672 --> 01:17:52.012
We'll wait and see on that.

01:17:52.432 --> 01:17:57.172
Although he's got car blocks to go in with Pete Hexteth as the secretary.

01:17:58.452 --> 01:18:06.112
But, you know, he's gotten rid of consumer finance, which is supposed to be the watchdog for us.

01:18:07.272 --> 01:18:11.912
He wants to get rid of that they've already made up their mind in the Department

01:18:11.912 --> 01:18:15.912
of Education so it doesn't matter what they do they just want to get rid of

01:18:15.912 --> 01:18:18.712
that so I guess he's not going to go in there,

01:18:19.612 --> 01:18:23.932
but then he went into USAID right the,

01:18:25.425 --> 01:18:32.645
our Agency for International Development, our soft diplomacy arm, right?

01:18:33.645 --> 01:18:37.125
And, you know, instead of going in with troops, we come in with money.

01:18:37.285 --> 01:18:40.585
Say, hey, we're going to help you with this thing. We're going to help you with that thing.

01:18:41.145 --> 01:18:48.485
If anything, USAID should have been funded more because I believe if we targeted

01:18:48.485 --> 01:18:54.365
a lot of the countries and some of the countries that we get immigrants from we've been donating to.

01:18:56.665 --> 01:19:02.905
But I think if we had done more, then maybe some of those people would have

01:19:02.905 --> 01:19:06.365
stopped in other countries and gotten jobs instead of having to come all the

01:19:06.365 --> 01:19:08.245
way to the United States to find an opportunity.

01:19:09.165 --> 01:19:10.605
That's a whole nother discussion.

01:19:11.865 --> 01:19:16.965
But it turns out the USA had some questions about Elon.

01:19:17.825 --> 01:19:24.705
They had an investigation going. And so basically he's just going in and he's

01:19:24.705 --> 01:19:27.105
been given the provision to settle scores.

01:19:27.765 --> 01:19:32.825
So he fits right into the Trump administration and the mindset that it's like

01:19:32.825 --> 01:19:34.185
we're going to pay everybody back.

01:19:34.365 --> 01:19:41.505
Now, he's got Pam Bundy and he's unfortunately about to get Cash Patel and he's

01:19:41.505 --> 01:19:45.225
got Tulsi Gabbard into national intelligence.

01:19:45.985 --> 01:19:53.105
So he's got his people in place now to do his damage, get his retribution,

01:19:53.225 --> 01:19:56.145
talking about President Trump, get his retribution, right?

01:19:56.885 --> 01:20:01.325
Because those people gave him those grief. And I guess Hex Def in the Department

01:20:01.325 --> 01:20:05.945
of Defense, because you had those generals who were basically telling Donald

01:20:05.945 --> 01:20:07.185
Trump, you can't do that.

01:20:07.185 --> 01:20:11.785
You can't shoot civilians. You can't just drop bombs anywhere you feel like it.

01:20:11.785 --> 01:20:18.705
There's got to be a rhyme and a reason to utilize our military instead of just

01:20:18.705 --> 01:20:25.165
going after people you don't like or don't agree with you, right? Like Canada.

01:20:26.125 --> 01:20:27.485
You just can't do that.

01:20:29.145 --> 01:20:34.085
So now that he's got Hegstuff in the area, I guess he can get rid of the generals,

01:20:34.385 --> 01:20:37.065
all the generals that would tell him no.

01:20:40.225 --> 01:20:46.105
And, yeah, it's, you know, so that just kind of pisses me off because it's like

01:20:46.105 --> 01:20:50.305
we, you know, this is not a reality show.

01:20:51.005 --> 01:20:58.085
This is the United States government. This is the government that makes decisions

01:20:58.085 --> 01:21:00.965
that could impact people's lives.

01:21:01.185 --> 01:21:04.385
Well, not could, that does impact people's lives.

01:21:05.764 --> 01:21:11.384
And if you make the wrong decision, it could be a very, very tragic consequence, right?

01:21:11.644 --> 01:21:15.104
When you start cutting off people's money for their health care,

01:21:15.644 --> 01:21:17.644
tragic consequences are going to happen.

01:21:17.984 --> 01:21:24.964
When you cut off aid where we're trying to stop disease and hunger in other

01:21:24.964 --> 01:21:28.204
parts of the world, there's going to be tragic consequences to that.

01:21:29.904 --> 01:21:34.724
And, you know, and especially if we're doing it with no authority.

01:21:35.764 --> 01:21:38.324
You know, the president of the United States is sitting there saying,

01:21:38.744 --> 01:21:40.064
well, I gave him the authority.

01:21:41.324 --> 01:21:46.904
But could you really? Right. Because we're supposed to have a couple of checks

01:21:46.904 --> 01:21:52.044
and balances to make sure that you don't go off the rails.

01:21:53.244 --> 01:22:00.244
And I guess that's where I'm really pissed off, because I grew up and I became

01:22:00.244 --> 01:22:06.184
involved in politics in an era where people still challenged their party leaders.

01:22:06.804 --> 01:22:12.824
Right. No matter how hard you work to get that person in a position during the

01:22:12.824 --> 01:22:19.764
election, when it came time to govern, if that person came up with an idea that you weren't cool with.

01:22:20.584 --> 01:22:27.084
Either you met with them privately or you gathered public support to stop it.

01:22:28.024 --> 01:22:32.624
Didn't matter if I was the state director for your presidential campaign.

01:22:33.544 --> 01:22:37.284
Didn't matter if I personally knocked on doors for you.

01:22:38.564 --> 01:22:44.764
Once we all got in positions and I'm in one branch of government and you're

01:22:44.764 --> 01:22:48.424
in the other branch, especially legislative as opposed to executive.

01:22:49.744 --> 01:22:53.704
And you coming out here with something that is like, I know that's going to

01:22:53.704 --> 01:22:58.484
be detrimental to my constituents, to my people, I got something to say about that.

01:22:58.684 --> 01:23:03.744
If I think you're doing something that might be illegal even,

01:23:05.024 --> 01:23:06.444
I'm going to say something about it.

01:23:06.764 --> 01:23:11.984
And I had contemporaries that had the same mindset, right?

01:23:12.504 --> 01:23:18.144
You know, you had a few sheep that like just wherever the shepherd goes,

01:23:18.144 --> 01:23:19.544
I'm going to follow. You know what I'm saying?

01:23:20.924 --> 01:23:27.564
And that could be a good thing or a bad thing. It just all depends on how capable the shepherd is, right?

01:23:28.724 --> 01:23:37.484
But you're not elected to blindly follow anybody because technically you're a leader.

01:23:37.824 --> 01:23:41.824
If you are elected to the state legislature in your state or you're elected

01:23:41.824 --> 01:23:43.944
to Congress, you're a leader.

01:23:44.684 --> 01:23:51.004
You represent a group of folks that nobody else represents in the nation. You are that person.

01:23:52.180 --> 01:23:55.700
If you're a member of the United States Senate, you're one of two people that

01:23:55.700 --> 01:23:56.780
represents a whole state.

01:23:57.740 --> 01:24:02.920
So it's like you have to have the best interest of your people.

01:24:04.220 --> 01:24:08.040
And if the president of the United States is saying something that's not in

01:24:08.040 --> 01:24:12.000
the best interest of your people, it's one thing to talk about it in the cloakroom.

01:24:12.580 --> 01:24:17.920
It's one thing to talk about it on the subway because they actually have a subway under the cap.

01:24:17.920 --> 01:24:21.640
There's one thing to talk about it while you're having dinner or lunch,

01:24:21.660 --> 01:24:30.300
but it's a whole nother conversation to have it where the American people hear it, right?

01:24:33.620 --> 01:24:39.020
If you've got problems, then you need to tell them, I'm not cool with that.

01:24:39.760 --> 01:24:42.720
And you need to tell the American people, I'm not cool with that.

01:24:42.820 --> 01:24:48.240
And you need to vote accordingly, right? But we don't have those kind of people.

01:24:49.980 --> 01:24:56.380
And that's what really drives me nuts. We are electing people that don't have

01:24:56.380 --> 01:25:03.160
the courage of their own convictions, that don't have the courage to represent our best interests.

01:25:03.160 --> 01:25:10.140
All they want to do is cater to one person so they can get his favor and think

01:25:10.140 --> 01:25:15.420
that they can translate that into money or whatever to convince us to vote for them again and again.

01:25:16.560 --> 01:25:22.660
And so it's one thing to ask leaders to have accountability,

01:25:22.660 --> 01:25:25.540
but we have to have some accountability amongst ourselves.

01:25:26.400 --> 01:25:33.520
Leadership is not electing somebody to be somebody's pet, somebody's toy.

01:25:34.220 --> 01:25:38.320
We need free thinkers in leadership positions.

01:25:38.860 --> 01:25:44.260
We need creative thinkers in leadership positions. We need people that might

01:25:44.260 --> 01:25:51.160
even tell us, hey, guys, I know y'all want this, but this is a better idea.

01:25:51.700 --> 01:25:54.080
Here's why. Right?

01:25:54.800 --> 01:25:58.940
You know, I want a representative to be able to come to me and say,

01:25:59.340 --> 01:26:02.020
no, we can't get you that community center.

01:26:03.180 --> 01:26:08.680
We can't get you that. We can't put extra money into the police force right

01:26:08.680 --> 01:26:10.100
now. We just can't do that.

01:26:10.600 --> 01:26:13.440
Instead of lying and saying, oh, yeah, we're going to do all this.

01:26:13.540 --> 01:26:17.560
And yeah, yeah, I'm listening to you and all that stuff. And basically lie to us.

01:26:18.440 --> 01:26:23.060
Right. We want people to tell us the truth, even if it hurts us.

01:26:23.060 --> 01:26:27.960
Our feelings not harm us but hurt our feelings.

01:26:31.081 --> 01:26:37.581
Because, you know, we, I mean, Black folks, we've been dealing with this a long time, right?

01:26:37.681 --> 01:26:42.321
When we get into the discussion about reparations, that's our classic example.

01:26:42.321 --> 01:26:48.961
We've asked our representatives to do it, and, you know, a lot of them go in

01:26:48.961 --> 01:26:53.901
saying, yeah, we're going to do that, and then it just hasn't been done, right?

01:26:53.901 --> 01:27:00.601
But I respect the folks that make the effort and at least tell us what the roadblocks

01:27:00.601 --> 01:27:05.121
were, as opposed to just ignoring us or lying about it, right?

01:27:05.541 --> 01:27:10.881
Or just blindly following a president that's not in favor of it.

01:27:11.681 --> 01:27:17.941
And don't give us any explanation other than, we all need to pay attention to fearless leaders. No.

01:27:18.901 --> 01:27:22.721
I just want you to think about something. In Michigan, right,

01:27:23.281 --> 01:27:29.561
in Michigan, the people of Michigan voted for Donald Trump to be president,

01:27:29.561 --> 01:27:33.861
but they voted for Elaine Slotkin to be the U.S. senator.

01:27:34.421 --> 01:27:38.001
In North Carolina, they voted for Donald Trump.

01:27:38.621 --> 01:27:44.481
But for all of the statewide offices, the North Carolina statewide offices,

01:27:44.721 --> 01:27:46.621
they voted for all the Democrats. Right.

01:27:47.721 --> 01:27:54.241
People are intelligent enough to make decisions with the information they're

01:27:54.241 --> 01:27:58.121
provided and with the level of trust that they have been given.

01:27:58.621 --> 01:28:04.241
Right. For whatever reason, people thought that Donald Trump would do a better job than Kamala Harris.

01:28:04.481 --> 01:28:08.221
I disagree with that. And I think my point is being validated.

01:28:08.781 --> 01:28:12.721
However, people made a decision based on the information they received.

01:28:13.621 --> 01:28:19.261
Right? But in races closest to them where they had more of a relationship with

01:28:19.261 --> 01:28:22.501
people, they voted for the people they trusted more.

01:28:22.661 --> 01:28:27.181
They voted for the people they knew were going to get the job at the more local level.

01:28:27.501 --> 01:28:32.221
Somebody that they've actually met or talked to or seen on local television,

01:28:32.721 --> 01:28:36.921
read about in a local newspaper, heard on the local radio station.

01:28:37.461 --> 01:28:39.061
They voted for those folks.

01:28:41.241 --> 01:28:49.541
So information and trust and the people that they elected at the more local

01:28:49.541 --> 01:28:53.601
thing are people that are emerging as leaders.

01:28:54.081 --> 01:28:57.241
Right. And the definition, what I'm talking about, American leaders,

01:28:57.441 --> 01:29:04.861
people that understand that what folks like Donald Trump and others are saying

01:29:04.861 --> 01:29:06.761
as our weakness is actually our strength.

01:29:06.761 --> 01:29:12.601
People are embracing those who speak truth to power, right?

01:29:14.958 --> 01:29:22.238
It's part of our DNA that we want folks to encourage and uplift us, right?

01:29:23.278 --> 01:29:27.898
Now, a lot of times we get caught up in catchy slogans and themes and all that kind of stuff.

01:29:28.358 --> 01:29:31.918
You know, that's why advertising works. That's why marketing works.

01:29:32.378 --> 01:29:37.378
But in our soul, in our gut, we want people to inspire us.

01:29:37.918 --> 01:29:41.798
We want people to give us hope. That's what we look for.

01:29:42.578 --> 01:29:45.498
Most politicians try to scare the bejesus out of us.

01:29:46.258 --> 01:29:51.658
But the ones that emerge as historic leaders, the ones that emerge as American

01:29:51.658 --> 01:29:54.698
leaders are the ones that truly inspire us.

01:29:56.958 --> 01:30:03.258
And they have the courage to stand up to their friends when it's this time.

01:30:03.378 --> 01:30:04.858
I remember we talked about friendship.

01:30:05.658 --> 01:30:11.338
If they're truly a friend, if they're truly an ally, even, because there's a difference.

01:30:12.258 --> 01:30:17.318
They will respect when you say no to them, right?

01:30:17.738 --> 01:30:25.878
But when you have somebody who is too narcissistic to accept no as an answer, that's a problem.

01:30:26.618 --> 01:30:29.798
That's a problem at the local level. That's a problem at the state level.

01:30:29.918 --> 01:30:34.378
That's a problem at the county level. And that's sure as hell is a problem at the national level.

01:30:35.458 --> 01:30:41.558
We've got to have people who understand that folks ain't going to agree with them all the time.

01:30:42.838 --> 01:30:49.638
And you're not trying to use your resources to do them harm when they disagree with you.

01:30:49.978 --> 01:30:55.278
You're not trying to fire them. You're not trying to turn people out to kill them.

01:30:56.478 --> 01:31:00.678
You're not doing that. You just understand that on this particular issue,

01:31:00.778 --> 01:31:04.618
at this particular time, we don't see eye to eye on it, and we keep it moving.

01:31:05.278 --> 01:31:09.138
Even if I'm the president and I want to see this done, if the majority of my

01:31:09.138 --> 01:31:11.718
party is like, Mr. President, that's not a good idea.

01:31:12.598 --> 01:31:17.938
Keep it moving. Now, I'm going to try to convince them to go along with me,

01:31:17.958 --> 01:31:21.438
but at this moment, that's not happening.

01:31:21.858 --> 01:31:24.078
Next issue. Keep it moving.

01:31:24.798 --> 01:31:29.418
Don't be like, oh, I'm going to primary all these folks, and I'm going to make

01:31:29.418 --> 01:31:34.478
sure that their lives are hell, and I hope that all my followers swat them and

01:31:34.478 --> 01:31:36.178
all that. That's craziness.

01:31:37.338 --> 01:31:42.038
There's fancy names for it like fascism and authoritarianism and all that.

01:31:42.158 --> 01:31:45.898
It's just crazy that you can't accept no as an answer.

01:31:46.758 --> 01:31:52.298
And we have a whole branch of government that acts like they can't say no to the president.

01:31:54.053 --> 01:31:57.833
Now, there's a group of individuals that are in the opposite party that are

01:31:57.833 --> 01:32:00.353
saying no, but everybody's like, oh, that's just partisan.

01:32:01.193 --> 01:32:06.233
But there are people in the Republican Party that know that what Donald Trump

01:32:06.233 --> 01:32:13.493
is doing is wrong and they don't have the courage to challenge. And that is a problem.

01:32:14.313 --> 01:32:19.673
I have lived long enough where I've seen Democratic presidents and Republican presidents.

01:32:20.613 --> 01:32:26.073
I have disagreed with some of the Democrats, and I've agreed with some of the Republicans.

01:32:27.253 --> 01:32:32.393
I've lived long enough to engage in that. But I've never been in a situation

01:32:32.393 --> 01:32:36.173
where it's like, well, Eric, you know, the governor said this.

01:32:36.673 --> 01:32:43.073
You got to go along with it. The speaker said this. We got to do that. No, we don't. I don't.

01:32:43.773 --> 01:32:49.013
Not if it's bad for the people I represent. No, I'm not doing it.

01:32:49.813 --> 01:32:55.713
You know, now there have been times where it's like, all right,

01:32:55.933 --> 01:32:58.153
this is the way we're going to go.

01:32:58.513 --> 01:33:09.533
You go along with it. But trust me that my concerns were addressed and voiced even more so. Right.

01:33:10.493 --> 01:33:14.433
Because that's how politics works. That's how it's supposed to work.

01:33:15.333 --> 01:33:19.853
You're supposed to challenge where things aren't right.

01:33:20.773 --> 01:33:28.293
And to let Elon Musk run around and just have his way, yeah, that's not right.

01:33:29.893 --> 01:33:36.153
And I think it's insulting when you have members of Congress who have chosen

01:33:36.153 --> 01:33:41.793
not to be courageous, but to just follow along to get along,

01:33:41.793 --> 01:33:44.613
to question other members' intelligence.

01:33:46.492 --> 01:33:52.412
You need to look in the mirror and not only try to figure out where you lack

01:33:52.412 --> 01:33:54.032
intelligence, where you lack courage.

01:33:54.712 --> 01:33:58.552
You need to be introspective. You don't need to lash out at other people because

01:33:58.552 --> 01:34:03.572
you don't understand where they get the courage, where they have the intellect

01:34:03.572 --> 01:34:05.712
to challenge something that is wrong.

01:34:06.552 --> 01:34:14.932
You don't have the license to do that. You need to figure out why am I in lockstep with them now?

01:34:16.492 --> 01:34:20.052
If you're a bad person, then you are who you are.

01:34:20.652 --> 01:34:26.412
And eventually, I hope that the people that keep sending you to Washington figure

01:34:26.412 --> 01:34:31.212
that out and get somebody else in there that will try not to do any harm,

01:34:31.432 --> 01:34:36.572
that will actually have a backbone and have a mind of their own. Right?

01:34:37.932 --> 01:34:41.532
But we can only hope. But I really,

01:34:41.712 --> 01:34:47.032
really think that you don't have the license until you do some introspection

01:34:47.032 --> 01:34:52.992
that you should criticize anybody else's intelligence because the majority of

01:34:52.992 --> 01:34:57.092
the population doesn't equate you with the word intelligence.

01:34:58.452 --> 01:35:04.952
Right? Yeah. So if you're following people blindly, that's not intelligence.

01:35:05.972 --> 01:35:09.652
If you're going along to get along, that's not courage.

01:35:10.572 --> 01:35:14.352
You know, if you decide, well, I'm not going to run for election,

01:35:14.352 --> 01:35:19.612
so now I'm just going to be the stick in the mud and challenge all these things and all that stuff.

01:35:20.512 --> 01:35:22.052
We have to accept that.

01:35:23.432 --> 01:35:27.232
But that's not really courageous. It's convenient.

01:35:28.172 --> 01:35:37.652
We don't really need elected officials that base their whole political philosophy around convenience.

01:35:38.272 --> 01:35:39.732
We need courage.

01:35:40.372 --> 01:35:47.052
We need people to step up and say, hey, that's wrong. You can't do that.

01:35:49.252 --> 01:35:52.712
But maybe we won't get that for another two years.

01:35:54.332 --> 01:36:00.592
So, we have to continue to challenge, we, constituents,

01:36:01.232 --> 01:36:07.712
those of us who are not elected, we have to challenge, we have to stand in the

01:36:07.712 --> 01:36:11.752
gap, we have to repair that breach, right?

01:36:13.967 --> 01:36:19.407
We get elected officials to do their job. It's up to us.

01:36:19.987 --> 01:36:23.487
And ultimately, it's always up to us, right?

01:36:23.847 --> 01:36:31.687
But it's not as much of a mountain to climb when we have leadership in the places,

01:36:32.207 --> 01:36:37.987
the halls of government expressing our sentiment, you know, so,

01:36:38.247 --> 01:36:40.587
or at least a majority of them.

01:36:40.587 --> 01:36:45.107
Well, I shouldn't say at least, or it would be better if we had a majority of

01:36:45.107 --> 01:36:46.827
them, but we've got a few.

01:36:47.687 --> 01:36:51.847
So, we've got to stop electing people like that.

01:36:53.207 --> 01:37:00.087
And as long as there's no elected officials complaining about what's going on

01:37:00.087 --> 01:37:03.107
in Washington, then we have to be the ones to challenge it.

01:37:03.867 --> 01:37:07.047
You know, and people are joking. I hear other podcasters talking about,

01:37:07.187 --> 01:37:08.547
oh, I'm going to be on the list.

01:37:08.727 --> 01:37:12.987
And, oh, yeah, they're going to take us off the air and all that stuff.

01:37:13.167 --> 01:37:15.907
And they're joking because they're like going, really?

01:37:16.107 --> 01:37:18.587
Is that dude that petty? He may be.

01:37:19.647 --> 01:37:24.187
But the beauty is these folks are going to keep doing what they're doing,

01:37:24.207 --> 01:37:25.947
and I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing.

01:37:26.147 --> 01:37:31.727
And we're going to challenge stuff that's wrong. We're going to speak up for our people.

01:37:32.407 --> 01:37:34.707
We're going to speak up for the American people.

01:37:35.547 --> 01:37:42.487
And hopefully, sooner rather than later, we'll start getting elected officials to do the same thing.

01:37:43.167 --> 01:37:45.727
Thank you for listening. Until next time.

01:37:47.440 --> 01:38:33.943
Music.