The Plunder of Black America Featuring Dr. Calvin Schermerhorn

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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And so today is going to be a short day. As far as the podcast goes,

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I have one distinct guest.

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We're going to be talking about the racial wealth gap in America.

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This young man has written a book from a historical perspective.

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And I think you'll get a lot out of that interview.

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So, yeah, and I'm going to be talking about some reflections I have about the

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passing of Reverend Jesse Jackson Sr.

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You know, by the time this comes out, a lot of people would have said,

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but they needed to say and all that.

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But yeah, I've got a couple of things I want to add to that.

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But make sure y'all are subscribing or supporting the podcast in any way you

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can. You can go to www.momenteric.com to do that.

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And independent podcasters like me need your support. So please do that if you have not done that.

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And without any further ado, let's get this show started. And as always,

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we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Thanks, Erik. Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, brother of England's King Charles,

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was arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office following allegations

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that he shared confidential government documents with Jeffrey Epstein during

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his tenure as a trade envoy.

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Dr. Linda Davis, a Savannah, Georgia elementary school teacher,

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was killed when a man fleeing federal immigration officers ran a red light and

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crashed into her vehicle near her school.

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A federal judge ordered the National Park Service to reinstall a slavery exhibit

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at a Philadelphia historic site while the city's lawsuit against the Trump administration's

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removal of the display proceeds.

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A federal judge has issued a nationwide ruling striking down the administration's

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mandatory detention policy for migrants.

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Tricia McLaughlin is leaving her role as the lead DHS spokesperson amid criticism

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of the agency's communication strategy

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and shifting public opinion on the administration's immigration policies.

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A judge declared a mistrial for five Stanford University students after a jury

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deadlocked on felony charges stemming from a 2024 pro-Palestinian protest at

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the school president's office.

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A federal judge has ordered the Trump administration to facilitate the return

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of a Babson College student who was deported to Honduras.

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Approximately 100 U.S. military personnel have arrived in Nigeria to provide

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training and intelligence support to local forces as part of an expanded operation

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against Islamist insurgents.

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President Trump's proposed $400 million White House ballroom received approval

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from the U.S. Commission of Fine Arts.

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Federal lawmakers officially renamed the U.S. House Press Gallery in honor of

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the legendary abolitionist Frederick Douglass.

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And Jesse Jackson, the influential civil rights leader, two-time Democratic

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presidential candidate, and protege of Dr.

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Martin Luther King Jr., died at the age of 84.

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I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.

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And now it is time for my guest, Dr. Calvin Schermerhorn.

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Calvin Schermerhorn grew up in Southern Maryland, and after receiving a divinity

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degree at Harvard and a PhD at the University of Virginia,

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he became a historian of United States slavery and racial economic inequality.

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His latest book, The Plunder of Black America, How the Racial Wealth Gap Was

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Made, was published in 2025, and that's what we're going to be talking about on the podcast.

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So ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a

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guest on this podcast, Calvin Schermerhorn.

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All right. Dr. Calvin Schermerhorn. How are you doing, sir? You doing good?

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Very well. Pleasure to be on with you, Mr. Fleming. Well, it's a pleasure to have you on.

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Now, I noticed some people call you Jack. How do we get Jack out of Calvin?

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Ah, my parents named me Jack, and in college, adopted this nickname.

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It's kind of a silly story, but I went with it. So my professor started calling me that.

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I started publishing under Calvin, and it's kind of stuck.

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So that's it.

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All right. Well, yeah, I know nicknames stick, especially in college and high school.

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That's usually when people get their nicknames.

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I just thought that was interesting. But I want to get into this discussion

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with you about a book that you've written called The Plunder of Black America,

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how the racial wealth gap was made.

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I think that's a very timely book, and I am really glad that you wrote it.

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And before we really get into the meat of that, I do what I call the icebreaker section.

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So the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.

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And this is from the Reverend Jesse Jackson.

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He said, there is no commitment to economic development. It seems in the black and brown communities.

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Some black people want jobs, but many black people want wealth.

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They don't go to school to study business administration and finance and banking just to get a job,

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but to build banks and to build insurance companies and to have a stake in the

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revival of the areas in which they live. What's your response to that quote?

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Wisdom from a towering personality, a politician and a leader we sadly lost this week.

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And what it does is it cuts to the heart of the matter that this book addresses,

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which is that it's not just the value of work, virtue being its own reward.

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It's building something that deals with the future, that deals with hope,

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that deals with betterment. I mean, it deals with the American dream.

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The American dream isn't just a toil and honest labor.

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It's to build something for future generations. It's to leave your family,

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your community, kids with something better than what you started with.

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So that's a keen insight from someone who saw the, you know,

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the big picture and communicated. Yeah.

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All right. So now the next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

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Fifteen. All right. When you think about the challenges our country faces, what gives you hope?

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It's the resiliency and it's the creativity of the rising generation,

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the resiliency to kind of deal with what we collectively in our generation have

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placed upon their shoulders. And also to think differently.

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Think forward, think sideways, think about the patterns that can be broken,

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the possibilities that they can reach.

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When I give talks to church groups and others, I often end on a kind of an unhopeful note.

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And I've been told in the past, well, why do you end on that unhopeful note?

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And I say, well, that's where the evidence seems to go.

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But with kids, you know, a 15-year-old and a 13-year-old, I don't think that's

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tenable or sustainable.

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We can't just say, well, based on the past evidence, we're just going to go

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over the cliff or we're going to go into the, you know, hit the rocky shoals.

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How about we think about steering the ship in a different direction?

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And so that's why I responded that way. Yeah.

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All right. So what motivated you to write this book?

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I was trained as an academic, but also grew up in a place that was trying very

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hard to forget its racist past, its past of enslavement.

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I'd pass tobacco fields on the way to elementary school and see African-American workers there.

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I would go, you know, do a project in high school to see how those,

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the tobacco is being stemmed.

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There were black workers in those barns. Now they're being replaced by migrant

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workers, people who were speaking Spanish and often and mine as a first language.

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And so as I learned about the history of the South, the history of enslavement,

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I was publishing on these issues, I kept running into this curious response

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that is, well and good, you're studying slavery.

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You're looking at this institution that was maybe the original sin of the American

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Republic, that it was something that we had to work as a nation to get rid of,

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to constitutionally exclude by the 13th Amendment.

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And I noticed that the more Or that response led to another kind of interesting,

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you know, sort of mental leap, which was that once you get rid of slavery,

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well, the laws of economics and maybe the politics of equality are going to

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work their way through the American system so that by maybe not in 1870,

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but maybe by 1970, you'd have something approaching equality.

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That just didn't happen.

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We'd look at things like, or

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I'd look at things like land ownership among formerly enslaved Virginians.

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And sure enough, by 1900, you know, a high proportion of black households in

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Virginia owned their own property, owned their own land.

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And a lot of historians would say, well, look at that. You know,

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there you have this equalizing tendency.

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But then you start to read political economy, especially black political economy

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by scholars like William A.

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Sandy Darity and Derek Hamilton, who are finding these staggering,

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staggering wealth inequalities that persist and grew.

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They grew at the same time the United States became more wealthy than any time

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before, probably afterwards.

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And so as I was putting these dots together, I'm thinking, what's the big story here?

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How is it that we can talk in one breath about equality, the end of enslavement,

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the rise of civil rights, a second American founding,

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to use the formulation of many historians, and then look around and see a staggering

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and persistent wealth inequality. How does that work together?

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And so the book attempts to go back over 400 years and look at the patterns

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that established that and to try and understand this process historically.

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So part of what that involved is looking at individual households and generations.

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So that we don't just isolate one variable.

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We can't just throw up a banner headline saying, well, if inequality needs to

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close, we need to address education, or the wealth gap is all about homeownership.

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Or, well, we need to address inequities in credit reporting,

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or we need to end job discrimination.

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Yes, it's all of these, but I wanted to work on a history that showed how all

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of these factors work together to be mutually reinforcing constraints on uplift over the generations.

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Thinking about the quote from Jesse Jackson. Yeah.

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So like you said, you divided the book into stories about African-American individuals

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and families and how their experiences explain the racial wealth gap.

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So let's start with one of George Washington's slaves, Morris,

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and how the theft of his income contributed to the structural feature of the colonial economy.

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Sure. So let's start with Morris. I couldn't find his last name.

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This is someone whom George Washington enslaved for decades.

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He called one of his farms on the Mount Vernon plantation complex Morris's.

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Never recorded his last name.

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So to go back into Morris's life, he was born in the tidewater of Virginia, I think around 1729.

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He grew up the property of John Custis IV. How did that make him George Washington's bondsman?

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Well, Custis' son, Daniel Park Custis, married a young Martha Dandridge.

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Martha Dandridge was a teenager at the time. They had four children.

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Daniel Park Custis died in his 40s. Martha remarried George Washington.

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Martha was the wealthiest widow in Virginia at the time, and Morris was enslaved. to her estate.

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So that is to her and her surviving children. So Morris grew up in the Tidewater, Virginia.

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And I think if he was free, he would have raced ahead of his contemporaries.

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By all accounts, he was smart, ingenious, clever.

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He had leadership capacity and he knew his craft very well.

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And so he was an expert carpenter at a time when there was quite a skills premium.

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If you were a free white carpenter, you could live what we'd call a comfortable

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middle-class existence.

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He'd probably own his own farm, own his own shop, you know, he'd provide for his children.

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So that didn't happen. When George and Martha married in 1759,

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George decided he was going to renovate his family property,

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Mount Vernon, into an elegant mansion befitting a kind of aristocrat from Virginia.

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And he had Morris do that. And if you go to Mount Vernon today,

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they just did a big reno on the main house.

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You could see some of the exposed timber work that Morris probably crafted using his skills.

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So George Washington, we know him as the founder of the United States,

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Continental Army leader, president, etc.

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He was first and foremost an agricultural innovator.

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He read British agricultural literature. He worked to turn Mount Vernon from

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a tobacco farm that was maybe no different than any other tobacco farm on the

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Potomac River to an integrated agricultural complex that had 60 crop varieties,

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was adding value to products through grist mills,

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through milling, through distilling.

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The Virginia whiskey industry is now kind of firmly on the back of George Washington, the distiller.

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And he needed leadership and he needed talent.

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Now, George Washington tried to do this through hired white overseers,

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but it pretty much failed.

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These guys would come in, steal his property, misdirect, maybe not,

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you know, pay half attention to the concerns on the farm, and then go leave for their own property.

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Their own household, their own ends. They didn't want to work for Washington.

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They wanted their own plantation. Well and good.

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So after decades of this, Washington turned to Morris and he said,

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okay, you have been a leader.

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I'm imagining this conversation in the ranks, in this carpentry team.

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Now I want you to run Doug Run Farm. I want you to manage that property.

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And Morris, well, he's enslaved, so what can he do, right?

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No, sir, thank you. I would rather be free and manage my own farm like the series

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of overseers I'm taking over from.

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So Washington had it. He had him, you know, he had a kind of an awful bargain.

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He said, Morris, I know you're married to Hannah. I don't really let married

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people live together. That's not efficient.

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That doesn't, you know, we're down to the benefit of my plantation.

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But if you do superintend Dogron Farm, you and Hannah and live together in an old farmhouse.

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So that's what Morris did for 20 years or so he managed his farm.

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And it doesn't sound like a hard, you know, hatch to manage at first,

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but he managed through adversity, through natural disasters,

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through floods, through hot summers.

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He had to reclaim enslaved workers who ran away.

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People whose feet were frostbitten, people who were forced to work through pregnancy

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and early childbirth, people who were just forced to work, right, relentlessly.

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George Washington was a micromanager. He'd take a ride around Mount Vernon to

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make sure his orders were being carried out.

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And he was fairly relentless in that regard.

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And there are stories that circulate that, oh, George Washington was a kind

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and, you know, forbearing master, but come on, right?

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We can see what's happening here. So Morris responded as best he could.

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He made a go of Dobrun Farm, which Washington over time called Morris's.

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And in order to encourage him, Washington paid him a stipend,

00:19:19.872 --> 00:19:25.512
which was about one-tenth what he would pay an overseer, a hired overseer.

00:19:25.792 --> 00:19:28.232
And so the farm became a success.

00:19:28.752 --> 00:19:33.892
Morris and Hannah lived together for many seasons. And by the time the War of

00:19:33.892 --> 00:19:38.672
Independence came, hard times hit Mount Vernon, just like they hit the rest of America.

00:19:39.072 --> 00:19:45.492
Americans lost about 30% of their incomes during the revolution and shortly afterward.

00:19:46.645 --> 00:19:51.025
You know, by that time, Morris and Hannah were in their 50s, 40s and 50s.

00:19:51.545 --> 00:19:53.625
You know, what were they going to do? Run away to the British.

00:19:53.905 --> 00:19:55.925
Some people did, but they were promptly returned.

00:19:56.265 --> 00:20:02.065
And so the story shows how over a lifetime, Washington's enterprise,

00:20:02.305 --> 00:20:08.605
it was suck the income potential, suck the potential wealth out of Morris and

00:20:08.605 --> 00:20:10.725
Hannah and everybody like that.

00:20:10.725 --> 00:20:17.665
And were it not for that constraint, that enslavement, we can imagine this couple

00:20:17.665 --> 00:20:25.545
being landowners, citizens, people who are active in shaping the Commonwealth of Virginia.

00:20:25.865 --> 00:20:31.925
That didn't happen. And we make a lot about George Washington setting 123 people

00:20:31.925 --> 00:20:35.445
free in his will after Martha passed away in 1802.

00:20:36.105 --> 00:20:42.105
But even that didn't really help Hannah, who by that time was a widow of Morris

00:20:42.105 --> 00:20:45.705
and may have gone free, probably did.

00:20:45.845 --> 00:20:50.465
But at that time, she was a burden on others and didn't have much of a life of her own.

00:20:50.685 --> 00:20:54.945
And so we see these stories again and again, this potential that's harnessed,

00:20:55.125 --> 00:20:59.845
this wealth generating potential that's harnessed to the greater wealth of someone

00:20:59.845 --> 00:21:04.645
like George Washington, who left every single acre of his property to his white

00:21:04.645 --> 00:21:07.465
heirs, even though he had no natural children of his own.

00:21:07.485 --> 00:21:14.945
They were the offspring, the grandchildren of Martha and John Park Custis.

00:21:15.585 --> 00:21:20.945
Yeah, because it was something you said in the book that somebody of Morris'

00:21:21.165 --> 00:21:23.305
skill set probably would have made.

00:21:24.320 --> 00:21:30.940
In their lifetime, about 9,000 pounds sterling, which doesn't sound like a whole

00:21:30.940 --> 00:21:34.360
lot, but we're talking about the 1700s.

00:21:34.860 --> 00:21:43.380
So that would have put him, like you said, in an upper middle class bracket during that time.

00:21:43.820 --> 00:21:48.240
The Rivers family, they lived in an era W.E.B.

00:21:48.360 --> 00:21:53.760
Du Bois described as a moment when the slave went free, stood a brief moment

00:21:53.760 --> 00:21:57.480
in the sun and then moved back again towards slavery.

00:21:57.740 --> 00:22:02.740
Talk about the impact of Jim Crow era on Blackwell.

00:22:03.080 --> 00:22:09.400
Yes, this was in many ways one of the most heartbreaking chapters because it

00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:14.300
shows the possibilities for freedom after emancipation,

00:22:14.780 --> 00:22:21.500
during Reconstruction, and it shows how very quietly, the forces of plunder gathered.

00:22:21.820 --> 00:22:25.280
And so this is the Rivers family of South Carolina.

00:22:25.600 --> 00:22:29.660
They were, you know, if you want to say, let's put them on an ethnographic map.

00:22:29.820 --> 00:22:33.100
They may not have called themselves Gullah people, but they were Gullah.

00:22:33.420 --> 00:22:38.460
So they were descended from West African forced migrants, enslaved people brought

00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:42.820
over in the 18th century to work South Carolina rice plantations.

00:22:43.020 --> 00:22:47.860
And there are Rivers families in Beaufort County, South Carolina.

00:22:48.080 --> 00:22:52.040
This is the branch of the Rivers family in Berkeley County, South Carolina,

00:22:52.180 --> 00:22:53.340
just north of Charleston.

00:22:54.091 --> 00:23:00.271
So they were enslaved, freed, you know, by the 13th Amendment.

00:23:00.691 --> 00:23:03.751
And here's the critical thing.

00:23:03.971 --> 00:23:07.591
By 1868, South Carolina, which had

00:23:07.591 --> 00:23:12.071
a black majority, was one of the most progressive states in the country.

00:23:12.511 --> 00:23:17.231
South Carolina instituted public education that, yes, was segregated.

00:23:17.231 --> 00:23:24.031
But by the early 1870s, they were spending almost equal dollars per student to go to school.

00:23:24.391 --> 00:23:28.171
So Hector Rivers went to school. He learned how to read and write.

00:23:28.351 --> 00:23:36.311
He began to distinguish himself from other farmers and that he was successful. He generated a surplus.

00:23:37.151 --> 00:23:41.031
South Carolina had what they called a land commission, which divided up old

00:23:41.031 --> 00:23:46.931
plantations and sold it off in family-sized parcels and gave them mortgage credit.

00:23:47.231 --> 00:23:50.871
The Freedman's Bank, the Freedman's Savings and Trust Company was a savings bank.

00:23:51.031 --> 00:23:54.931
It didn't issue mortgages. Most banks at the time did not issue mortgages.

00:23:55.071 --> 00:23:59.551
In fact, in the national banking era, to be a little bit wonky,

00:23:59.771 --> 00:24:02.611
national banks did not give retail loans.

00:24:02.771 --> 00:24:06.991
If you wanted free land, if you wanted reduced price land, you got to go get

00:24:06.991 --> 00:24:09.171
up in some of that homesteading land.

00:24:09.331 --> 00:24:15.331
That required you to move out of state. So in the Sea Islands of South Carolina,

00:24:15.771 --> 00:24:22.911
the Rivers family managed to get a little over 100 acres of property in a place

00:24:22.911 --> 00:24:24.531
where there's lots of mosquitoes,

00:24:24.911 --> 00:24:31.071
there's lots of alligators and pests, but they're able to make a living as a small farming family.

00:24:31.999 --> 00:24:38.379
So what happens? In the 1880s, right after South Carolina is so-called redeemed

00:24:38.379 --> 00:24:41.299
by white conservatives, they start passing laws.

00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:48.219
The laws seem to be colorblind at first, but they pass something called an eight ballot box measure.

00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:53.039
That means that for each of the eight offices that you went to the polls to

00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:57.639
elect, you had to put the right ballot in the right box. And to do that, you needed to read.

00:24:58.019 --> 00:25:03.259
So that was no problem for Hector Rivers, he could do that, but his children

00:25:03.259 --> 00:25:04.699
may not have been able to do that.

00:25:05.335 --> 00:25:10.395
So there was this issue with literacy. South Carolina said, well,

00:25:10.455 --> 00:25:12.575
that doesn't disenfranchise Black people enough.

00:25:12.695 --> 00:25:18.195
Let's pass a measure redistricting South Carolina to group Black voters like

00:25:18.195 --> 00:25:21.235
those in Berkeley County, which was about 80% African-American,

00:25:21.475 --> 00:25:25.355
in their own gerrymandered district, so that's going to dilute the Black vote

00:25:25.355 --> 00:25:27.275
and swing the legislature back

00:25:27.275 --> 00:25:32.315
to a white minority rule, which they did successfully also in the 1880s.

00:25:32.315 --> 00:25:38.915
So step by step, they're reversing the advancements of Reconstruction.

00:25:39.195 --> 00:25:43.995
And by 1895, South Carolina decides we just need a new constitution because

00:25:43.995 --> 00:25:49.375
it's tiresome passing all these ad hoc rules to disenfranchise and demote black people.

00:25:49.535 --> 00:25:53.015
Let's just pass a constitution that does it all in one fell swoop.

00:25:53.015 --> 00:25:56.595
And this is exactly what happened.

00:25:56.775 --> 00:26:04.795
So by 1900, by 1908, a very small proportion of African-Americans in South Carolina are voting.

00:26:04.995 --> 00:26:11.355
And this comes with another problem, which is how do you maintain hold on your property?

00:26:11.355 --> 00:26:16.415
You and I know that if we don't pay our property taxes, if we don't do what

00:26:16.415 --> 00:26:20.815
we need to do to maintain our property holdings, the state will come and take

00:26:20.815 --> 00:26:24.735
it, whether it's an auto, whether it's real property, what have you.

00:26:25.715 --> 00:26:31.215
So Gullah people, you know, they could say, well, okay, we're losing the courts,

00:26:31.435 --> 00:26:33.575
we're losing the votes, we're not losing our family.

00:26:33.755 --> 00:26:38.875
And so the Rivers family held on to a place they were now calling Pinefield

00:26:38.875 --> 00:26:43.255
through parceling it down in family allotments.

00:26:43.495 --> 00:26:48.815
Okay, so this son, this daughter, this couple gets this part of the family property

00:26:48.815 --> 00:26:52.995
and this son, this daughter, this couple gets another part of the family property.

00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:57.679
Another thing's happening at the same time, which is that truck farming or commercial

00:26:57.679 --> 00:27:01.739
farming is coming in and changing the agriculture in coastal South Carolina.

00:27:02.099 --> 00:27:06.879
So instead of growing, you know, wheat and corn, or you're growing some amount

00:27:06.879 --> 00:27:10.599
of rice or cotton, now the big market is for veggies, which you could put on

00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:13.379
a train, send up to New York City, it's going to be a lot more profitable,

00:27:13.739 --> 00:27:16.759
except big farming companies are coming in, buying up the land,

00:27:17.019 --> 00:27:18.859
evicting the migrant workers, etc.

00:27:18.859 --> 00:27:25.419
So if we go down to the 1970s and 80s now, we have third, fourth,

00:27:25.539 --> 00:27:29.619
fifth generation descendants of Hector Rivers occupying this land.

00:27:29.819 --> 00:27:33.939
They've shipped it away from farming. They're taking the ferry to Charleston

00:27:33.939 --> 00:27:40.019
to work in the Navy yard, to work in a fertilizer factory, to do something other than farming.

00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:46.359
So what happens by the 1990s is Charleston's growing.

00:27:47.019 --> 00:27:51.399
Suddenly, Pinefield looks like it's going to make a good suburban development.

00:27:51.779 --> 00:27:56.379
And real estate, white real estate developers get interested in what is now

00:27:56.379 --> 00:27:58.019
called heirs' property.

00:27:58.459 --> 00:28:03.839
So heirs' property is this common phenomenon that happens in different places

00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:10.199
in the South under different frameworks of law, but that designates family property

00:28:10.199 --> 00:28:12.519
that's been passed down without clear title.

00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:20.019
So by the 1990s, an intrepid lawyer gets one of the river's descendants to sue.

00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:24.999
And under South Carolina law at the time, if that descendant decides that she's

00:28:24.999 --> 00:28:29.399
going to sell her fractionalized ownership of that piece of pine field,

00:28:29.539 --> 00:28:31.279
it forces the settlement of all of it.

00:28:32.126 --> 00:28:35.426
Now, this does two things to this nest egg.

00:28:35.586 --> 00:28:40.106
It cheapens it because if you're selling property without a clear title,

00:28:40.326 --> 00:28:43.086
it's going to be way below market value.

00:28:43.566 --> 00:28:48.406
And the other part, which scholars have picked up on, property in black hands

00:28:48.406 --> 00:28:53.266
is lower valued, even though next week it may be in white hands,

00:28:53.386 --> 00:28:54.366
it's going to be higher value.

00:28:54.366 --> 00:28:58.686
So this happened to the Rivers family, so that by the year 2000,

00:28:59.086 --> 00:29:02.586
the Rivers descendants had lost their family.

00:29:04.084 --> 00:29:07.264
Legacy. They'd lost Pinefield to developers.

00:29:08.064 --> 00:29:13.904
And this came in the tragedy of local police.

00:29:14.104 --> 00:29:16.984
Some of the local sheriffs said, I can't, in good conscience,

00:29:17.344 --> 00:29:21.744
evict people from their family land, even though I have a court order to do so.

00:29:21.824 --> 00:29:24.144
And the court said, no, unmistakably move them.

00:29:24.364 --> 00:29:27.424
So they moved people, they moved children, they moved widows,

00:29:27.584 --> 00:29:31.264
they moved people, they moved trailers, you know, mobile homes off this land,

00:29:31.424 --> 00:29:36.264
off this Pinefield site, and almost immediately the county came in,

00:29:36.364 --> 00:29:38.544
they built the sewers, they built the roads.

00:29:39.004 --> 00:29:43.184
There had already been an automobile bridge that linked this part of Berkeley

00:29:43.184 --> 00:29:46.104
County to the Charleston metro area.

00:29:46.684 --> 00:29:51.084
And right before the book went to publication, I looked on one of those,

00:29:51.184 --> 00:29:55.844
you know, real estate websites, and there's Pinefield subdivided into these

00:29:55.844 --> 00:30:01.164
sumptuous multi-acre properties with huge single-family housing,

00:30:01.344 --> 00:30:03.684
lanai, pools, et cetera.

00:30:03.884 --> 00:30:06.544
These properties are going for $2 million of fees.

00:30:07.424 --> 00:30:10.424
So let's step back and say, well, how did that happen?

00:30:10.744 --> 00:30:16.764
And you can see through the steps here, the processes that connected something

00:30:16.764 --> 00:30:21.504
that seems as benign as just another real estate listing to the quote you started with.

00:30:22.004 --> 00:30:25.304
From W.E.B. Du Bois. And how does this happen?

00:30:25.464 --> 00:30:31.324
How does a family like the Rivers get plundered of their ancestral property?

00:30:32.264 --> 00:30:39.064
Yeah. All right. So now, just so the listeners will know, there's multiple stories

00:30:39.064 --> 00:30:40.944
of different individuals and

00:30:40.944 --> 00:30:44.244
families in the book, but I only wanted to cover three because of time.

00:30:44.824 --> 00:30:48.324
So the Prathers are the final story in the book.

00:30:48.924 --> 00:30:53.544
Discuss how the public policies of the latter 20th century contributed to the

00:30:53.544 --> 00:30:56.304
struggles of families like the Prithers.

00:30:57.188 --> 00:31:06.088
Yeah, so this is the concluding chapter, and it revolves around a family who grew up,

00:31:06.268 --> 00:31:14.708
descended from those people whom Georgetown College in 1838 sold off to save the institution.

00:31:15.088 --> 00:31:19.528
So some of your listeners may have read Rachel Swarns' beautiful book,

00:31:19.668 --> 00:31:24.408
The 272. So in 1838, Georgetown College was hitting hard times,

00:31:24.428 --> 00:31:28.688
and they decided to sell off some of the college's assets. Those were human assets.

00:31:28.928 --> 00:31:32.948
Those were African Americans living in Prince George's in Maryland,

00:31:33.328 --> 00:31:35.348
in St. Mary's County, Maryland.

00:31:35.628 --> 00:31:40.768
They sold 138 individuals to Louisiana sugar planters.

00:31:41.268 --> 00:31:46.908
And that's how Rochelle Sanders Prater's ancestors ended up in Iberville Parish, Louisiana.

00:31:46.908 --> 00:31:50.308
So after you know

00:31:50.308 --> 00:31:53.468
after enslavement emancipation they picked

00:31:53.468 --> 00:31:56.808
up right that it's this kind of the same story as

00:31:56.808 --> 00:31:59.868
the rivers family right you start with zero wealth

00:31:59.868 --> 00:32:05.608
you get no back wages from slavery you get no recompense for having missed out

00:32:05.608 --> 00:32:10.308
on generations of education and exploitation but this family works their way

00:32:10.308 --> 00:32:17.428
up so south so sorry this is louisiana baton rouge area It's the Louisiana Sugar Bowl,

00:32:17.488 --> 00:32:20.468
and they go from being sugar workers to timber workers.

00:32:20.728 --> 00:32:27.108
This comes with its own dangers and hazards. Rochelle's uncle died in a logging accident.

00:32:27.248 --> 00:32:30.988
Relative died in a logging accident. I think it actually is her grandfather.

00:32:31.328 --> 00:32:35.168
So they're growing up. It's kind of scraping by.

00:32:36.492 --> 00:32:42.612
In the Jim Crow era, you have two economies in Merrington, Louisiana, and Iberville Parish.

00:32:42.692 --> 00:32:45.512
There's a white-run economy and a black-run economy.

00:32:45.812 --> 00:32:50.312
And so Rochelle Sanders Prater grew up, born in 1960, grew up in this environment,

00:32:50.572 --> 00:32:56.612
and was, as she describes in the interviews, a child of integration.

00:32:57.192 --> 00:33:01.612
So her parents encouraged their kids to go to school, earn those degrees.

00:33:01.952 --> 00:33:05.452
She had a love of engineering, so she got an engineering degree.

00:33:05.452 --> 00:33:10.672
And faced the kinds of discrimination that are very quiet.

00:33:10.872 --> 00:33:14.392
Her sister also earned an engineering degree, wanted to stay near Iberville

00:33:14.392 --> 00:33:20.152
and stay near her family, but went up and down the levee looking for a job with

00:33:20.152 --> 00:33:25.212
an engineering degree, looking for a job at one of the petrochemical companies.

00:33:25.372 --> 00:33:30.232
And they just laughed at her. We're not hiring Black people and certainly not Black women.

00:33:30.392 --> 00:33:34.132
She ended up getting an advanced degree at Rensselaer Polytechnic and working

00:33:34.132 --> 00:33:38.172
for General Electric Aerospace in the Cincinnati area.

00:33:38.972 --> 00:33:42.772
So Rochelle follows her dream to an engineering degree.

00:33:43.332 --> 00:33:49.112
Her husband was working as a prison guard at the time, a corrections officer, right?

00:33:49.232 --> 00:33:53.672
And so he saw up close what's happening in Louisiana, which is that a vast,

00:33:53.812 --> 00:34:00.452
disproportionate fraction of the population, Black men are being incarcerated.

00:34:00.932 --> 00:34:05.772
Or, you know, for what? You know, that's another podcast, right?

00:34:05.852 --> 00:34:08.452
I probably don't need to expand too much on this.

00:34:08.772 --> 00:34:11.732
So they decide we're going to take a ticket out of Louisiana.

00:34:11.732 --> 00:34:15.712
We don't want to, but Rochelle took a job with...

00:34:18.290 --> 00:34:22.770
I'm blanking on the name, Aerospace Company in Long Beach, California.

00:34:24.030 --> 00:34:29.270
McDonald Douglas, thank you. And moved out there in the late 80s.

00:34:29.910 --> 00:34:33.530
And this should have been a ticket to prosperity.

00:34:33.910 --> 00:34:39.110
But she's moving to the LA metro area, which itself has been formed through

00:34:39.110 --> 00:34:43.550
generations of discriminatory practices, redlining, etc.

00:34:43.970 --> 00:34:49.810
The aerospace industry at the time was booming, especially the defense aerospace industry.

00:34:49.990 --> 00:34:55.270
So she's landing in Long Beach. She's working on one of the most advanced transport

00:34:55.270 --> 00:35:00.290
planes of the time, the C-17 Strato.

00:35:00.830 --> 00:35:05.110
I'm going to blank on the name of this as well. If you see a jet-powered Air

00:35:05.110 --> 00:35:08.390
Force transport plane, it's probably one of these, even though they don't make

00:35:08.390 --> 00:35:10.370
them anymore. So the C-17 project.

00:35:10.590 --> 00:35:14.750
So she lands there and finds it's very hard. First of all, because she's a black

00:35:14.750 --> 00:35:17.310
woman, she has a pay differential, a disadvantage.

00:35:17.730 --> 00:35:24.350
The company, McDonnell Douglas, was able to recruit very talented people with substandard wages.

00:35:24.530 --> 00:35:28.550
And then the L.A. housing market was priced them out. So they're renting.

00:35:28.830 --> 00:35:33.630
It's a long commute. her husband had to kind of pivot from being a corrections

00:35:33.630 --> 00:35:38.070
officer to a courier at a time before cell phones and DoorDash and all that.

00:35:38.270 --> 00:35:44.670
So they're doing okay. But she faces persistent discrimination at this aerospace company.

00:35:44.830 --> 00:35:49.290
She shifts to another aerospace company, and she's working on the B-2 stealth

00:35:49.290 --> 00:35:58.530
bomber up in one of these high security production facilities north of Los Angeles.

00:35:58.530 --> 00:36:04.930
So, one day, it's in an automobile accident, 1990, suffers a head injury,

00:36:05.090 --> 00:36:06.670
and her career essentially ends.

00:36:07.523 --> 00:36:12.803
And this is where the policy kind of the policy story catches up with the success

00:36:12.803 --> 00:36:17.563
story of someone who made it, you know, into aerospace with an engineering degree

00:36:17.563 --> 00:36:21.683
is working on some of the most advanced aircraft of our era.

00:36:22.183 --> 00:36:27.843
And because Social Security was not set up to serve African-Americans,

00:36:27.843 --> 00:36:32.503
she has no way of getting an on-ramp back into her career.

00:36:32.503 --> 00:36:37.663
She eventually gets Social Security disability, but not for the accident itself,

00:36:37.883 --> 00:36:42.043
but for the depression, kind of the consequences of that.

00:36:42.263 --> 00:36:45.383
So her family is not able to go back into this industry.

00:36:45.603 --> 00:36:52.323
She is forced to move to near where her sister is in Cincinnati and build her life back up again.

00:36:52.503 --> 00:36:56.563
So it's a story of adversity and disability. And in a larger frame,

00:36:56.703 --> 00:37:01.663
it's a story of second chances that Black Americans don't get and don't get by design.

00:37:01.663 --> 00:37:08.103
In the Reagan era, there was all kinds of moves to dismantle any kind of federal

00:37:08.103 --> 00:37:13.363
safety net, to get rid of civil rights regulations, get rid of civil rights laws.

00:37:13.643 --> 00:37:19.463
I mentioned in the book, and this is before the last year, John Roberts,

00:37:19.743 --> 00:37:21.183
now Chief Justice of the U.S.

00:37:21.263 --> 00:37:25.583
Supreme Court, got a start in the Reagan White House trying to work against

00:37:25.583 --> 00:37:27.763
civil rights regulations and civil

00:37:27.763 --> 00:37:32.283
rights legislation. And you can see how extremely successful the U.S.

00:37:32.583 --> 00:37:38.503
Supreme Court has been in the last 15 or so years in rolling back the Civil

00:37:38.503 --> 00:37:43.063
Rights Revolution, gutting the Civil Rights Acts, gutting the Voting Rights

00:37:43.063 --> 00:37:45.223
Act of 1965 in particular.

00:37:45.763 --> 00:37:49.203
And at every turn, you know, trying to turn the clock back.

00:37:49.203 --> 00:37:55.143
But the story of the Praetor family Doesn't end there They pick themselves back

00:37:55.143 --> 00:38:01.243
up They fight the good fight for equality But it's the story of Of.

00:38:02.104 --> 00:38:08.844
How structures that are meant to support and help American families thrive work

00:38:08.844 --> 00:38:14.944
in reverse in many cases when African-American families are making those claims.

00:38:15.284 --> 00:38:20.324
So, you know, I don't want to tell too much of Rochelle Sanders Prater's story

00:38:20.324 --> 00:38:26.104
because she is one of the executive directors of the Georgetown 272 Project,

00:38:26.104 --> 00:38:29.904
very active in making that history well known.

00:38:29.904 --> 00:38:35.024
But here's the point of the story is to show what is the trajectory there.

00:38:35.324 --> 00:38:38.884
We like to think of ourselves or like to think of America as a place of,

00:38:39.024 --> 00:38:45.564
you know, if you bootstrap your way up, you know, there's no upward limitations.

00:38:45.564 --> 00:38:51.404
But hidden in the weeds of that are a series of interlocking disadvantages.

00:38:51.904 --> 00:38:57.404
And those that we face today include things as benign or seemingly neutral as a credit score.

00:38:57.704 --> 00:39:03.324
Why is it that in 1989, you know, the Fair Isaac Company or FICO decided to

00:39:03.324 --> 00:39:07.724
make credit scores in such a way that most of our credit scores determined not

00:39:07.724 --> 00:39:12.444
by what we've done, but by what our parents were able to do, Our grandparents,

00:39:12.804 --> 00:39:15.964
the economic circumstances we're born into.

00:39:16.564 --> 00:39:23.244
So when you think about these things or think about the hidden tax on,

00:39:23.444 --> 00:39:26.904
let's say, African-American home ownership, vehicle ownership,

00:39:27.404 --> 00:39:33.204
education, then we can start to understand why these gaps are so persistent over so much time.

00:39:34.044 --> 00:39:37.864
And if I haven't, if I'm talking too much, let me know.

00:39:38.124 --> 00:39:42.664
But I just wanted to add one point that as the book reached its conclusion,

00:39:42.664 --> 00:39:47.824
it relied on the Federal Reserve's survey of consumer finance.

00:39:48.044 --> 00:39:50.824
This every once every three years, the Fed does a survey.

00:39:51.224 --> 00:39:55.784
And one of the outcomes of that is to look at racial wealth and income gaps.

00:39:56.404 --> 00:40:03.044
And one of the things that should be something to be part of a public policy

00:40:03.044 --> 00:40:09.684
discussion is that in 2022, when the Fed did the last survey or published the last survey,

00:40:09.784 --> 00:40:12.184
they did one in 2025, should be out later this year,

00:40:12.384 --> 00:40:18.104
they found that black households had about 16 cents on the dollar compared to white households.

00:40:18.624 --> 00:40:23.104
That is, I think, a staggering measure of inequality and one that should be

00:40:23.104 --> 00:40:25.444
at the forefront of our public policy discussion.

00:40:26.064 --> 00:40:31.464
Yeah. So that leads to my last question is really going to be two questions in one.

00:40:31.684 --> 00:40:34.544
There is a book called 15 Cents on the Dollar.

00:40:35.004 --> 00:40:41.104
And according to that book, if the black-white, it says if the black-white wealth

00:40:41.104 --> 00:40:45.744
ratio increases at the pace it did from 2019 to 2022,

00:40:45.744 --> 00:40:53.024
it would reach one-to-one ratio in 91 years. So that'll be 2113.

00:40:53.484 --> 00:40:59.884
Based on your historical examination, is there any way that the gap can be closed sooner?

00:41:00.244 --> 00:41:04.864
And can reparations help reduce that racial wealth gap?

00:41:05.732 --> 00:41:09.192
Yes and yes. And so 15 cents on a dollar is a brilliant book.

00:41:09.352 --> 00:41:14.732
And it does the hard work of looking at grassroots efforts in Atlanta,

00:41:14.952 --> 00:41:20.852
in and around Atlanta, to try and address the mechanisms that perpetuate and

00:41:20.852 --> 00:41:22.232
extend wealth inequality.

00:41:22.232 --> 00:41:26.212
So I would encourage everyone to read the story 15 cents.

00:41:26.612 --> 00:41:30.172
But yes, the yes and yes. So we can as a nation do this.

00:41:30.312 --> 00:41:36.832
We have done it. But hidden in the details, which 15 cents on the dollar mentions

00:41:36.832 --> 00:41:38.992
and the plunder of Black America mentions,

00:41:39.212 --> 00:41:46.432
is that in large part, this racial wealth gap today is a creation of public policy.

00:41:46.432 --> 00:41:53.152
So if we go back to the dawn of the mortgage lending industry in the early 20th

00:41:53.152 --> 00:41:56.952
century and the discriminatory framework in which that took place,

00:41:56.952 --> 00:42:02.792
if we look at the Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944, the GI Bill,

00:42:02.932 --> 00:42:07.132
and how that distributed benefits differently to black and white veterans,

00:42:07.412 --> 00:42:10.872
we can see the origins of much of that wealth gap today.

00:42:10.872 --> 00:42:15.032
And so the question that the plunder of Black America poses is,

00:42:15.232 --> 00:42:19.032
if the damage is financial, shouldn't the remedy be financial as well?

00:42:19.212 --> 00:42:20.832
And I think the answer is yes.

00:42:21.112 --> 00:42:27.772
And so what we should do is to take an account of that. California did this a few years ago.

00:42:28.670 --> 00:42:34.530
Studied the racial wealth and income gaps in California and proposed solutions.

00:42:34.670 --> 00:42:38.610
I doubt the politicians are going to act on those proposals.

00:42:38.790 --> 00:42:44.990
But one of the things that the California study found was that when they went and quantified it,

00:42:45.090 --> 00:42:52.750
they found that the typical Californian had lost about $160,000 in property

00:42:52.750 --> 00:42:56.830
value based on discriminatory practices in California,

00:42:56.830 --> 00:43:01.110
a state that did not allow slavery under its 1850 constitution.

00:43:01.610 --> 00:43:06.630
So yes, I think we can take those numbers and form an action plan.

00:43:06.810 --> 00:43:09.790
Let's start to do the accounting. Let's look at those receipts.

00:43:09.950 --> 00:43:13.910
Let's see what we can do to close that gap.

00:43:14.350 --> 00:43:19.010
And if scholars like Sandy Darity have proposed cash payments,

00:43:19.230 --> 00:43:25.650
this would do a very immediate, that was very immediately accomplished closing some of those gaps.

00:43:26.010 --> 00:43:29.770
But in this book, what about if we go back to South Carolina and say,

00:43:29.890 --> 00:43:34.970
well, for a long, long time, South Carolina very deliberately discriminated

00:43:34.970 --> 00:43:36.010
against Black students.

00:43:36.170 --> 00:43:40.030
They spent three times as much on each white student as each Black student.

00:43:40.330 --> 00:43:44.230
And for the Rivers family, by the second generation of freedom,

00:43:44.350 --> 00:43:49.210
they didn't even have high schools available in Berkeley County for Black students,

00:43:49.230 --> 00:43:52.610
in most places in Berkeley County, unless you can somehow get to Charleston.

00:43:52.990 --> 00:43:57.230
So why don't we set up scholarship funds? Why don't we set up scholarship funds

00:43:57.230 --> 00:44:00.510
to places like the University of South Carolina? Or in Arizona,

00:44:00.510 --> 00:44:04.530
there was discrimination against African American students until the 1950s.

00:44:04.630 --> 00:44:05.870
And then why discrimination?

00:44:06.830 --> 00:44:10.870
Let's look at those specific financial harms and then remedy those harms.

00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:15.580
So when we think about the Servicemen's Readjustment Act or the GI Bill,

00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:21.300
this didn't have any racist language in the actual bill.

00:44:21.420 --> 00:44:27.980
But what it did was to allow local agents to steer black or white vets to different opportunities.

00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:31.520
So let's say you're in Pennsylvania.

00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:38.020
You're a white vet coming home from World War II. You're meeting with your VA person.

00:44:38.940 --> 00:44:42.160
And I don't know if it was called the VA at the time. it's now the Veterans

00:44:42.160 --> 00:44:46.820
Administration, that VA agent says, hey, you know, you look like a profile of

00:44:46.820 --> 00:44:50.340
someone who should go to Penn and earn an engineering degree. Okay.

00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:54.100
Federal government will help you out with that. Black vet comes in,

00:44:54.220 --> 00:44:55.740
same office, same officer.

00:44:56.120 --> 00:45:00.020
You look like you'd be a great candidate for a veterans masonry school.

00:45:00.580 --> 00:45:05.260
Okay. Off you go to the vet's masonry school. The family that has the engineering

00:45:05.260 --> 00:45:08.360
degree and the family that has a mason's degree, first of all,

00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:10.900
both get federal benefits, right?

00:45:11.100 --> 00:45:13.520
So that's objectively better than not having those benefits,

00:45:13.520 --> 00:45:17.380
but you can fill in the gaps as to what the trajectory of that is.

00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:23.260
In South Carolina, you did not have, the University of South Carolina actually

00:45:23.260 --> 00:45:28.540
integrated in the reconstruction era, and then it's segregated,

00:45:28.540 --> 00:45:31.300
not to integrate again for another hundred years.

00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:35.780
And so there's a big history of that discrimination that we need to address.

00:45:36.881 --> 00:45:41.541
So it takes a lot of political will, but I think at first it takes a recognition

00:45:41.541 --> 00:45:49.721
that these, what the book calls structural obstacles, are not simply ephemeral, right?

00:45:51.781 --> 00:45:55.941
They're something we need to reckon with, and we need to reckon with them by

00:45:55.941 --> 00:46:00.061
understanding how they're made and how we can start to remove them.

00:46:00.061 --> 00:46:03.981
Because in the story of the 20th century, the story of the first part of the

00:46:03.981 --> 00:46:09.401
20th century, the first three quarters of it is creating wealth for white families

00:46:09.401 --> 00:46:12.541
and largely excluding black families. Yeah.

00:46:13.061 --> 00:46:17.381
All right. So if people want to get this book, again, it's called The Plunder

00:46:17.381 --> 00:46:22.761
of Black America, How the Racial Wealth Gap Was Made. Where can they get it?

00:46:23.648 --> 00:46:28.948
And how can they get in touch with you? So I work at Arizona State University.

00:46:29.168 --> 00:46:34.328
So if you just Google Schermerhorn, S-C-H-E-R-M-E-R-H-O-R-N,

00:46:35.028 --> 00:46:37.528
ASU, my profile will pop up.

00:46:38.068 --> 00:46:41.508
They can buy this book, Barnes & Noble.

00:46:41.828 --> 00:46:45.108
They might have to order it. The Barnes & Noble in Springfield,

00:46:45.208 --> 00:46:49.248
Virginia has copies, I think, at last look, but the ones near me don't.

00:46:49.248 --> 00:46:53.888
So you can, you know, get it or get a used copy or through your local bookstore.

00:46:55.088 --> 00:47:00.928
Okay. Well, Calvin Schirmerhorn, I really appreciate, one, you writing this book.

00:47:01.128 --> 00:47:06.248
I would make the argument that if I was an attorney, I would use that as evidence

00:47:06.248 --> 00:47:10.288
to file lawsuits against certain,

00:47:10.448 --> 00:47:17.428
because you outlined certain companies and how they benefited from racism and slavery and all that.

00:47:17.988 --> 00:47:23.488
And, you know, but I think it's a good read for people to understand,

00:47:23.488 --> 00:47:25.328
because a lot of people make the arguments.

00:47:25.948 --> 00:47:30.628
Well, I don't understand about reparations and why I got to pay or,

00:47:30.828 --> 00:47:33.628
you know, we weren't involved with slavery and all that.

00:47:33.768 --> 00:47:41.588
But, you know, the plunder of black America makes the case as to how we got to this point.

00:47:43.348 --> 00:47:47.568
And hopefully learning from that will lead to some resolution.

00:47:47.568 --> 00:47:49.208
So I thank you for doing that.

00:47:49.748 --> 00:47:52.148
And I thank you for coming on the podcast.

00:47:53.348 --> 00:47:55.848
Well, thank you, Mr. Fleming. It's been a pleasure speaking with you.

00:47:56.788 --> 00:47:58.928
All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

00:48:20.407 --> 00:48:25.547
All right, and we are back. So I just want to thank Dr.

00:48:25.867 --> 00:48:34.687
Calvin Schermerhorn for writing this incredible book, The Plunder of Black America.

00:48:35.267 --> 00:48:44.067
And like I told him in the interview, this book makes the case.

00:48:44.067 --> 00:48:47.627
We also mentioned another book, 15 Cents on the Dollar.

00:48:49.160 --> 00:48:53.300
That Louise Story and Ebony Reed put together.

00:48:54.340 --> 00:48:59.260
And between those two books, you can make the case for reparations.

00:48:59.260 --> 00:49:06.260
You can make the case for public policy to do better as it relates to African-Americans.

00:49:06.260 --> 00:49:08.400
It doesn't matter if you're a Democrat or Republican.

00:49:08.840 --> 00:49:12.540
You need to read those books, especially if you're an elected official.

00:49:12.540 --> 00:49:18.620
You need to read these books because when people tell you they're struggling, And it's real.

00:49:18.640 --> 00:49:22.640
And it's been real for black people for a long, long time.

00:49:23.200 --> 00:49:29.800
So I really, really was honored to find this book and to be able to get the author on.

00:49:31.020 --> 00:49:37.780
And, you know, he's a college professor, so I did my best to get him out in

00:49:37.780 --> 00:49:40.900
time to do what he had to do as far as school was concerned.

00:49:41.140 --> 00:49:47.980
But I'm glad he took the time to do that. So I would be remiss personally if

00:49:47.980 --> 00:49:52.640
I didn't say something about Reverend Jesse Jackson Sr.

00:49:53.000 --> 00:50:02.260
He played a major role in my life without necessarily being me being a protege

00:50:02.260 --> 00:50:05.540
of his or being an apprentice or whatever term you want to use.

00:50:05.540 --> 00:50:11.380
But, you know, I mean, he was a part of growing up in Chicago.

00:50:11.880 --> 00:50:19.280
He was a part of our culture. He was part of the reason why I say growing up as a black man,

00:50:19.620 --> 00:50:27.360
a black child in Chicago during that time from 65 to 83 was was an incredible experience.

00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:33.560
I wouldn't trade that for anything in the world, you know, any other city or

00:50:33.560 --> 00:50:35.400
any other part of the United States.

00:50:35.540 --> 00:50:43.980
And he was the embodiment of why we had this particular pride.

00:50:44.100 --> 00:50:46.760
He was kind of the metronome.

00:50:47.828 --> 00:50:52.948
As far as us understanding Black history and pride and all that.

00:50:53.068 --> 00:50:57.488
And see, Chicago has been, you know, all these people used to talk about Harlem

00:50:57.488 --> 00:51:01.168
and people talk about Watts and, you know, all these other places.

00:51:01.388 --> 00:51:05.648
But Bronzeville and Chicago and just the city of Chicago in general,

00:51:05.768 --> 00:51:09.868
the South Side, you know, no offense to my West Side friends because,

00:51:10.148 --> 00:51:11.908
you know, there's some solid people there too.

00:51:11.908 --> 00:51:21.508
But the South Side of Chicago really was, like I said during that time, just a good place to be.

00:51:22.028 --> 00:51:27.228
You know, there were some people experiencing poverty and other problems and all that.

00:51:27.468 --> 00:51:31.328
But they were people that were, even if they were struggling,

00:51:31.848 --> 00:51:35.548
they had pride in their families.

00:51:35.768 --> 00:51:38.988
They carried themselves a certain way.

00:51:40.748 --> 00:51:46.188
And, you know, they knew how to survive. And there were people like Reverend

00:51:46.188 --> 00:51:51.588
Jackson out there that was constantly preaching about hope and organizing and all that.

00:51:51.728 --> 00:51:55.448
I mean, Barack Obama was organizing during that time.

00:51:55.648 --> 00:52:00.248
I mean, it was just, you know, we elected our first black mayor during that time period.

00:52:00.468 --> 00:52:03.788
I mean, it was just, it was just different. And like I said,

00:52:03.928 --> 00:52:06.588
Reverend Jackson was, whenever something was going down,

00:52:07.008 --> 00:52:12.828
you know, But his presence was always around us, almost like the Nation of Islam

00:52:12.828 --> 00:52:16.028
and their presence during that time in Chicago.

00:52:16.508 --> 00:52:20.168
You know, when I was growing up, Elijah Muhammad was still alive,

00:52:20.628 --> 00:52:25.448
you know, and Mosque Miriam was right there on South Chicago.

00:52:25.448 --> 00:52:32.708
And, you know, it wasn't any big deal for us to go to, you know,

00:52:32.868 --> 00:52:38.548
the Shabazz Bakery or whatever to get some bread or, you know, bean pies or whatever.

00:52:39.328 --> 00:52:43.028
Muhammad Speaks was the paper then. It wasn't the final call at that point,

00:52:43.068 --> 00:52:45.508
but it eventually became the final call.

00:52:46.910 --> 00:52:52.430
And headquarters was literally like walking distance from my house, right?

00:52:53.730 --> 00:52:57.730
Operation Breadbasket, when it first started in Chicago, Reverend Jackson's

00:52:57.730 --> 00:53:01.270
organization or the offshoot at SCLC that Dr.

00:53:01.410 --> 00:53:05.670
King put him over, had taken over to Old Capitol Theater, which was right there

00:53:05.670 --> 00:53:07.570
on Halstead Street, close to my house.

00:53:07.570 --> 00:53:15.210
And before he left the organization and started Operation Push,

00:53:15.450 --> 00:53:20.390
which then became the Push Rainbow Coalition, right?

00:53:21.070 --> 00:53:27.170
But, you know, I was a part of the Push Excel program.

00:53:27.410 --> 00:53:31.610
So that was a group of young leaders that were chosen.

00:53:33.170 --> 00:53:39.270
And, you know, we would meet and strategize and workshop and all that stuff,

00:53:39.330 --> 00:53:41.030
you know, like once a month.

00:53:41.670 --> 00:53:46.430
And he would always, you know, they would feed us and he would always,

00:53:46.730 --> 00:53:52.270
if he could, he would always come and give us a word of encouragement for what we were doing.

00:53:52.530 --> 00:53:58.190
So, you know, and of course, this is before cell phones and selfies and all that.

00:53:58.410 --> 00:54:05.590
So, So, you know, what I have is memories as opposed to snapshots, right?

00:54:06.070 --> 00:54:12.390
And then, you know, going to Jackson State, he came to Jackson State many times to speak.

00:54:12.910 --> 00:54:16.770
You know, it was an honor and privilege for me as a student body president to

00:54:16.770 --> 00:54:22.330
be on the dais with him, to introduce him, to speak to the student body president.

00:54:23.063 --> 00:54:28.843
You know, have lunch with him and, you know, just interact with him.

00:54:28.923 --> 00:54:32.883
And then, of course, being an elected official, whenever he came to Mississippi,

00:54:33.303 --> 00:54:36.563
you know, we, members of the Black Caucus, we interacted with him.

00:54:37.243 --> 00:54:45.663
And I remember one time we had to, we went to Atlanta,

00:54:45.963 --> 00:54:50.103
we came to Atlanta to march for an extension of the Voting Rights Act,

00:54:50.103 --> 00:54:53.743
and he was kind of the lead on that.

00:54:53.963 --> 00:54:59.863
But, you know, my memory of that was sitting in the old press box of the Morris

00:54:59.863 --> 00:55:01.223
Brown Football Stadium,

00:55:01.823 --> 00:55:09.903
and it was him and myself and Representative Jim Evans and Reverend James Orange

00:55:09.903 --> 00:55:13.603
and Reverend Joseph Lowry and Dr. Andrew Young.

00:55:14.023 --> 00:55:17.823
And I was just in awe just listening to them tell stories.

00:55:18.003 --> 00:55:23.963
You know, about different events that happened, you know, those kind of things.

00:55:24.603 --> 00:55:27.143
And so, you know, I know people...

00:55:28.870 --> 00:55:33.610
You know, there's always negative stuff that's out there. And people said that

00:55:33.610 --> 00:55:34.970
certain folks didn't get along.

00:55:35.690 --> 00:55:45.510
But, you know, those guys had an incredible bond that is so unique because all

00:55:45.510 --> 00:55:47.950
of those guys came up around Dr.

00:55:48.010 --> 00:55:58.910
King directly or indirectly. And, you know, just to see those original founders

00:55:58.910 --> 00:56:02.290
of the SCLC just gathered in that moment, right?

00:56:03.350 --> 00:56:07.190
Those were just the kind of things. And then, you know, over time and over years,

00:56:07.370 --> 00:56:15.630
and there's one incredibly funny story, you know, when he was running for president in 88,

00:56:16.110 --> 00:56:22.330
and I was working for a congressional candidate at the time,

00:56:22.470 --> 00:56:26.390
and he had made it to the runoff.

00:56:26.390 --> 00:56:32.510
And his opponent had done a commercial where he took a soundbite from Reverend

00:56:32.510 --> 00:56:36.130
Jackson and made it seem like Reverend Jackson was endorsing him.

00:56:36.610 --> 00:56:42.030
And so one of the guys who was supporting my candidate said,

00:56:42.190 --> 00:56:47.830
well, look, we need to get Reverend Jackson to come on and fix that.

00:56:49.270 --> 00:56:51.990
So here we are. I'm in this guy's office.

00:56:53.990 --> 00:56:57.550
It's like easily like one

00:56:57.550 --> 00:57:00.990
one or two in the morning and we're

00:57:00.990 --> 00:57:07.710
trying to reach reverend jackson and we get him and he was clearly hoarse from

00:57:07.710 --> 00:57:13.370
speaking and all that like i said they had just won the michigan caucus and

00:57:13.370 --> 00:57:18.910
you know when we told him what was going on he was like oh no doc We can't have that.

00:57:19.070 --> 00:57:23.630
And, you know, and he started, he said, what can we do and all this stuff?

00:57:23.810 --> 00:57:26.170
And so, like, literally, like, the next day.

00:57:27.538 --> 00:57:36.078
Went to a recording studio and he called in and basically did a spot over the telephone.

00:57:39.658 --> 00:57:47.358
To put a disclaimer on, you know, let people know that he wasn't endorsing our opponent, right?

00:57:47.698 --> 00:57:50.298
But that's how engaged he was.

00:57:50.758 --> 00:57:54.998
But those are my personal stories and recollections.

00:57:55.118 --> 00:58:00.098
But the beauty of Reverend Jackson was the fact that as I was talking to relatives

00:58:00.098 --> 00:58:09.858
and friends and looking at different people that I follow or follow me on social media and stuff,

00:58:10.098 --> 00:58:16.218
it was just like, you know, the younger folks that were able to get the selfies with him, right?

00:58:16.758 --> 00:58:24.598
And, you know, my cousin, he went to college with Jesse Jr. So he had met Reverend Jackson that way.

00:58:26.138 --> 00:58:29.898
And, you know, talking about Kyle's roommate, and he was talking about,

00:58:30.178 --> 00:58:37.178
you know, how his dad, you know, gave Jesse, Reverend Jackson, the frat shake,

00:58:38.098 --> 00:58:41.658
you know, because they, you know, he was a proud Omega man.

00:58:42.358 --> 00:58:49.418
And, you know, just the memory of that. And, you know, and then the first time

00:58:49.418 --> 00:58:51.498
he came to Jackson State, we had a march.

00:58:52.878 --> 00:58:56.858
And my roommate got to meet him and, you know, was telling me,

00:58:56.978 --> 00:58:59.938
yeah, you met my dad and da-da-da. He was like, yeah, okay.

00:59:00.738 --> 00:59:05.098
Yeah, old frat brother of mine, okay. Yeah, he was trying to recruit my roommate

00:59:05.098 --> 00:59:06.218
into the frat at that point.

00:59:06.838 --> 00:59:10.518
But it's just those stories and those pictures and it's always,

00:59:10.858 --> 00:59:15.558
you know, just the joy that people had being in his presence.

00:59:16.438 --> 00:59:20.078
I'm old enough to remember the Sesame Street episode he was on.

00:59:20.198 --> 00:59:27.218
I remember him doing the green eggs and ham on Saturday Night Live and all that stuff. And.

00:59:28.375 --> 00:59:37.475
You know, the ultimate testimony for Reverend Jackson was the fact that he was

00:59:37.475 --> 00:59:39.895
serious about the business, right?

00:59:40.415 --> 00:59:44.815
Whether he was, I even had to cover him as a reporter, right?

00:59:44.915 --> 00:59:54.295
When he came down to speak as a stockholder of MCI World Cup when Bernie Ebers was running it and,

00:59:54.295 --> 01:00:00.495
you know, and is trying to get more minority participation in the company and

01:00:00.495 --> 01:00:05.715
trying to encourage black people at that time to buy stocks.

01:00:06.295 --> 01:00:11.415
Because his whole contribution to the movement,

01:00:11.415 --> 01:00:16.915
not was just the political gains that he made because of what he did running

01:00:16.915 --> 01:00:19.195
for president of the United States,

01:00:19.195 --> 01:00:26.075
created the mechanism where a Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama or Kamala Harris

01:00:26.075 --> 01:00:30.255
could win the nomination because the primaries used to be winner take all.

01:00:30.955 --> 01:00:37.375
And because of Reverend Jackson and his campaign, they changed it to proportions.

01:00:38.095 --> 01:00:46.075
So it used to be if you won, let's say in Mississippi, you got 51% of the vote,

01:00:46.395 --> 01:00:52.415
the opponent got 49, you would get 100% of the delegates.

01:00:52.995 --> 01:01:00.015
After Reverend Jackson, it was like 51% of the delegates went to you and 49%

01:01:00.015 --> 01:01:01.875
went to your opponent, right?

01:01:02.115 --> 01:01:06.075
And that's how you were, you know, those delegates were chosen at the state

01:01:06.075 --> 01:01:10.895
convention and then they got to go represent those particular candidates at

01:01:10.895 --> 01:01:11.775
the national convention,

01:01:12.035 --> 01:01:18.435
and that's how you determine who wins instead of all the deal-making and backroom

01:01:18.435 --> 01:01:22.235
brokering that used to happen in previous conventions, right?

01:01:24.441 --> 01:01:32.961
So, he was, but getting back to my point about the joy and stuff,

01:01:33.221 --> 01:01:35.581
he just, everywhere he went,

01:01:36.221 --> 01:01:40.581
especially in the black community, every time he spoke and all that,

01:01:41.021 --> 01:01:44.061
you know, people were glad to see him.

01:01:44.421 --> 01:01:48.041
When he spoke up about something, people were excited.

01:01:49.603 --> 01:01:54.703
It raised the antenna. If Reverend Jackson offered an opinion,

01:01:54.903 --> 01:01:58.163
it's like, that's something we need to be paying attention to, right?

01:01:58.323 --> 01:02:01.183
I mean, that was the kind of magnitude he had.

01:02:01.503 --> 01:02:06.843
And, you know, even the fact that he was able to go overseas and get people.

01:02:07.463 --> 01:02:11.263
I remember that cover Jet Magazine when he got that brother,

01:02:11.503 --> 01:02:14.183
Robert Goodman. He was a POW.

01:02:15.183 --> 01:02:21.183
And we was a hostage actually because we weren't at war at the time and he got

01:02:21.183 --> 01:02:22.463
that brother to come home.

01:02:22.683 --> 01:02:26.903
I think he was in Syria if I remember correctly. I can't recall right off,

01:02:27.003 --> 01:02:30.023
but I remember Brother Goodman because I remember that cover,

01:02:30.783 --> 01:02:32.743
Reverend Jackson in his suit.

01:02:34.803 --> 01:02:39.603
And Brother Goodman in his naval uniform standing side by side,

01:02:39.783 --> 01:02:41.343
well, walking side by side.

01:02:41.863 --> 01:02:47.603
That was just incredible. And he was one of those forgotten people.

01:02:47.923 --> 01:02:53.403
You know, it was just like, well, not forgotten, but there wasn't any movement going on.

01:02:53.543 --> 01:02:56.563
And then Reverend Jackson got wind of it and was able to get him out.

01:02:56.963 --> 01:02:59.063
So, you know, he had a cachet.

01:02:59.623 --> 01:03:02.683
He had a aura and a presence.

01:03:03.543 --> 01:03:10.803
And the greatest testimony was just to see all my friends and colleagues and

01:03:10.803 --> 01:03:14.983
all that stuff be able to share their personal experience with him.

01:03:15.623 --> 01:03:19.423
And that's a true man of the people, right?

01:03:19.783 --> 01:03:28.083
Whereas like in your little circle, I promise you, if you're black and you probably

01:03:28.083 --> 01:03:29.223
had those conversations,

01:03:30.123 --> 01:03:33.583
you know, People say, oh, yeah, I remember when he came to our church.

01:03:33.583 --> 01:03:35.443
I remember when he came to our neighborhood.

01:03:35.463 --> 01:03:38.043
I remember when he spoke at this event, you know.

01:03:38.743 --> 01:03:43.243
Most of us have that story because he was truly for us.

01:03:44.427 --> 01:03:50.327
And, you know, again, the naysayers will say certain things about him.

01:03:50.747 --> 01:03:55.867
You know, he caught a lot of flack while he was alive. But one of my favorite

01:03:55.867 --> 01:03:58.647
quotes is something that stuck with me the whole time,

01:03:58.847 --> 01:04:07.547
along with a politician thinks of the next election, but a statesman thinks of the next generation.

01:04:07.907 --> 01:04:12.047
That's my favorite political quote. But my second favorite political quote is

01:04:12.047 --> 01:04:18.447
from Reverend Jackson. He said, I'm a public servant, not a perfect servant, right?

01:04:19.027 --> 01:04:25.427
All of us are human. All of us make mistakes. All of us have hurt somebody one

01:04:25.427 --> 01:04:27.707
way or the other, physically, emotionally, whatever.

01:04:28.087 --> 01:04:32.387
All of us have disappointed somebody that cares about us, right?

01:04:32.747 --> 01:04:35.227
So we've all fallen short.

01:04:36.327 --> 01:04:46.887
And, you know, but the totality of your life should reflect that you made a difference,

01:04:47.247 --> 01:04:52.607
that you helped somebody along the way, that you uplifted folks.

01:04:52.607 --> 01:04:55.487
And in the case of Reverend Jackson, uplifted the people.

01:04:56.427 --> 01:04:59.767
Right. And I think that's important.

01:05:00.287 --> 01:05:04.087
And that's the distinction I have. Right.

01:05:04.087 --> 01:05:10.507
You can't draw a better distinction than, you know, Reverend Jackson and the

01:05:10.507 --> 01:05:15.187
current president, because it's like, yeah, there's some people that's happy

01:05:15.187 --> 01:05:17.207
to see the current president and all that, but...

01:05:18.699 --> 01:05:25.699
And it's not the same, you know, whereas if Reverend Jackson made a mistake,

01:05:25.999 --> 01:05:29.059
there was some attrition to that. Right.

01:05:29.619 --> 01:05:36.279
There was there was, you know, there was a healing process. There was a way

01:05:36.279 --> 01:05:42.799
for him to pull from his gospel training to reconcile with people.

01:05:43.059 --> 01:05:47.939
And he always, always worked out different things. As a matter of fact,

01:05:48.299 --> 01:05:53.119
the quote that you heard me recite with Dr.

01:05:53.459 --> 01:05:59.939
Schumerhorn was not from a speech he gave to black folks, but an interview he

01:05:59.939 --> 01:06:07.219
gave to the American Enterprise Institute, which is basically a conservative think tank.

01:06:07.219 --> 01:06:16.219
So he was talking to some reporters and, you know, Republican policymakers.

01:06:16.219 --> 01:06:23.339
You know, Robert Woodson is one of the OGs as far as black conservatism in America,

01:06:23.339 --> 01:06:27.219
but he had a positive relationship with Reverend Jackson and asked Reverend

01:06:27.219 --> 01:06:31.619
Jackson to come to that meeting to talk to that group,

01:06:32.139 --> 01:06:39.439
right, and make the case for black economic equity to them.

01:06:40.419 --> 01:06:47.339
So he was never afraid to go anywhere to fight for us, right?

01:06:47.619 --> 01:06:54.399
And no matter what some people thought of him or, you know, how judgmental people

01:06:54.399 --> 01:06:55.959
got when he made a mistake.

01:06:57.093 --> 01:07:01.053
And that is not the definition of his life.

01:07:01.313 --> 01:07:05.713
And that shouldn't be the definition of anybody's life, right?

01:07:06.033 --> 01:07:13.453
If you continue to build your legacy on your mistakes, well,

01:07:13.473 --> 01:07:14.673
that's a different conversation.

01:07:14.673 --> 01:07:19.913
And so when people ask me, well, why do you not like the current president?

01:07:19.913 --> 01:07:24.433
It's because he doesn't have any empathy.

01:07:24.653 --> 01:07:29.213
He doesn't have any attrition. He doesn't care about anybody but himself.

01:07:29.673 --> 01:07:32.373
And Reverend Jackson was the total opposite of that.

01:07:33.053 --> 01:07:41.033
And so that's why people are mourning his loss, even though they,

01:07:41.333 --> 01:07:44.753
you know, he was not the same man he was 20 years ago.

01:07:45.133 --> 01:07:50.153
You know, we knew that he was sick and all that stuff, but that doesn't matter.

01:07:50.593 --> 01:07:55.653
You know, the world was a better place because he was still in it. Right.

01:07:56.953 --> 01:08:00.793
And so even if he couldn't do the things that he used to do,

01:08:01.013 --> 01:08:05.793
just the knowledge of the fact that he was still around was comforting.

01:08:06.693 --> 01:08:10.053
And some people may not get that. You know, that's fine.

01:08:12.593 --> 01:08:13.553
But now...

01:08:14.351 --> 01:08:17.611
That we are in a grieving moment.

01:08:17.811 --> 01:08:22.351
And there's some people that are upset because he's saying he's not going to

01:08:22.351 --> 01:08:25.651
lay in the state of the Capitol and not flag at half-mast.

01:08:25.771 --> 01:08:30.271
Look, don't expect things from people that don't care about you,

01:08:31.251 --> 01:08:32.511
right? That don't respect you.

01:08:33.111 --> 01:08:36.291
Let's not dwell on that.

01:08:36.611 --> 01:08:43.331
What we need to dwell on is what he strove for, what Reverend Jackson was all

01:08:43.331 --> 01:08:46.171
about, which was building us up,

01:08:46.271 --> 01:08:54.711
not just as full citizens as far as being able to vote and public accommodations

01:08:54.711 --> 01:08:58.631
and all those things, but as far as building our wealth.

01:08:58.731 --> 01:09:02.151
And I just thought that the timing of Dr.

01:09:02.271 --> 01:09:08.191
Shermerhorn coming on while we're in this mourning period was so apropos because

01:09:08.191 --> 01:09:12.491
this is what Reverend Jackson fought for. He wanted us.

01:09:12.811 --> 01:09:20.671
And it was Dr. King's vision, you know, and he asked Reverend Jackson to lead that part of the vision.

01:09:21.994 --> 01:09:25.434
To build our economic base.

01:09:27.494 --> 01:09:33.274
Because it's like 15 cents on a dollar ain't going to cut it. It's just not.

01:09:33.914 --> 01:09:38.734
You know, $5 for every $100, that's not going to cut it.

01:09:39.134 --> 01:09:49.774
We have to continue to push, fight, protest, whatever we have to do to build

01:09:49.774 --> 01:09:52.034
Black wealth in this nation.

01:09:52.474 --> 01:09:57.694
And it doesn't matter how many Black folks they are in the country.

01:09:57.974 --> 01:10:00.214
What matters is the dollars.

01:10:01.014 --> 01:10:04.034
And we have it, in a sense.

01:10:04.254 --> 01:10:11.534
We have incredible spending power, but we don't have accumulated wealth.

01:10:12.374 --> 01:10:15.434
And that makes all the difference, right?

01:10:15.434 --> 01:10:23.714
If we were able to have tangible investments like homeownership and stocks and

01:10:23.714 --> 01:10:25.894
bonds and all those kind of things,

01:10:26.354 --> 01:10:30.714
that's what we need to do, you know.

01:10:31.134 --> 01:10:34.334
And it's hard. It's not easy.

01:10:34.794 --> 01:10:41.034
I'm a living witness to that. I have, you know, tried to have investments and

01:10:41.034 --> 01:10:45.754
all those kind of things just to try to set it up for my child and all that

01:10:45.754 --> 01:10:47.694
property, all that kind of stuff.

01:10:48.254 --> 01:10:50.514
But being black in America is tough.

01:10:51.954 --> 01:10:57.354
And if, you know, any hardship, I think it was either in Dr.

01:10:57.594 --> 01:11:02.654
Schirmerhorn's book or somewhere I was reading, it was like a black family is

01:11:02.654 --> 01:11:05.174
one sneeze away from being bankrupt. Right.

01:11:05.988 --> 01:11:09.748
Right. The one lady that he talked about and that we were talking about,

01:11:10.028 --> 01:11:14.448
this Miss Prather, Rachel Prather, she, like I said, she was an engineer.

01:11:14.708 --> 01:11:19.908
She had a car accident and it changed her whole life.

01:11:20.168 --> 01:11:26.348
It just the income, the steady job that she had and all that was gone just because of a car wreck.

01:11:26.608 --> 01:11:33.488
Her economic future was in peril because of a car accident. right?

01:11:34.448 --> 01:11:38.548
That's a tenuous situation. And it's not just Black people in America that are

01:11:38.548 --> 01:11:41.508
suffering, but that's who I'm focusing on now.

01:11:42.248 --> 01:11:47.088
So, you know, Reverend Jackson, that's what he was pushing for.

01:11:47.128 --> 01:11:52.968
And we're seeing a lot of people who, again, were not direct protégés of him

01:11:52.968 --> 01:11:57.108
or contemporaries, but they're doing the work.

01:11:57.568 --> 01:12:04.868
And so we need to support those people that are carrying that vision on and

01:12:04.868 --> 01:12:12.668
really figure out a way to make that a reality for us, you know.

01:12:13.248 --> 01:12:19.288
And I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but if we really want to honor Reverend

01:12:19.288 --> 01:12:26.608
Jackson, then all of us need to work toward that goal, right?

01:12:26.608 --> 01:12:35.648
And the way we do that is through public policy, which means that we got to

01:12:35.648 --> 01:12:40.608
elect people that understand that, that buy into that, right?

01:12:42.079 --> 01:12:46.419
There's a candidate, young man, John Ossoff, who's running for re-election in the U.S.

01:12:46.479 --> 01:12:52.699
Senate, and he's already basically coined this phrase Epstein class, right?

01:12:54.299 --> 01:12:59.139
And that's who our battle is against. So it doesn't matter if there's black

01:12:59.139 --> 01:13:03.859
folks in the Epstein class or there's white folks in Epstein or Latinos.

01:13:04.479 --> 01:13:09.959
You're part of the Epstein class. Your mindset is that you keep all the wealth

01:13:09.959 --> 01:13:11.899
and the rest of us have to fend for ourselves.

01:13:12.079 --> 01:13:19.299
If you've seen science fiction movies like Elysium or The Island or anything

01:13:19.299 --> 01:13:24.579
like that where people are perverse with their wealth or you read books like

01:13:24.579 --> 01:13:29.419
1984 where Big Brother's dictating to you what's happening.

01:13:30.559 --> 01:13:36.279
That's what defines the Epstein class. Those are the people that we are fighting, right? Right.

01:13:36.739 --> 01:13:42.039
So, you know, those hundred people that showed up at the White House for Black

01:13:42.039 --> 01:13:46.099
History Month, if you're part of that class, if that's what you want,

01:13:46.179 --> 01:13:47.639
then we're fighting you, too.

01:13:48.359 --> 01:13:53.399
It's nothing personal. I'm not going to tell you a sellout or a coon or anything

01:13:53.399 --> 01:13:55.499
like that. I'm just going to fight you.

01:13:56.459 --> 01:14:03.579
Right. Because the survival for the rest of us depends on us defeating the person you're supporting.

01:14:04.239 --> 01:14:07.859
That's just facts. Again, it's not personal.

01:14:08.619 --> 01:14:13.199
It's just where we are right now. You know, I don't have time to call you a name.

01:14:13.639 --> 01:14:19.399
I do have the energy, though, to do what I can to get people to vote against

01:14:19.399 --> 01:14:21.559
the guy that you support. Right?

01:14:22.339 --> 01:14:29.039
That's just the reality of where we are. And so, you know, again,

01:14:29.519 --> 01:14:36.459
if we want to honor Reverend Jackson, then let's fight for what we deserve.

01:14:38.090 --> 01:14:44.630
And what we deserve is to live life in America and live it abundantly.

01:14:45.230 --> 01:14:52.970
We deserve our pursuit of happiness, right? We deserve our seat at the table.

01:14:53.530 --> 01:14:57.490
I know Ms. Shirley Chisholm said, you know, if they don't offer your seat,

01:14:57.590 --> 01:14:59.670
bring a folding chair. That's all well and good.

01:15:00.910 --> 01:15:05.910
But we deserve a seat at the table. And it's time.

01:15:07.210 --> 01:15:14.530
And so I'll end it on that. I greatly appreciate y'all for listening and until next time.