The Iconist & The Advocate Featuring Jamie Mustard and Dawne Troupe

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Welcome. I'm Eric Fleming, host of A Moment with Eric Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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Music.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment with Eric Fleming. I am your host, Eric Fleming.

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And today, I've got two very interesting guests coming on.

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One has written this book that I think is very, very impactful and timely in

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this day and age as far as being seen and being heard.

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And then the other guest is an advocate,

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somebody that is out there doing the work in the community to try to give people

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opportunities for housing and financial literacy.

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And, you know, so I'm really glad that they came on, and I'm honored that they

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came on. And I think that you're going to enjoy the conversations that we had.

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As always, I wish that we could talk longer and wish I could eavesdrop on some

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of the off-air conversations.

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But I think you're going to enjoy the dialogue that I've had with these guests coming on.

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And, well, guys, we're in it now.

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And you'll hear a little bit about how we're in it with the news.

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But I want to kind of open a little bit with, well, real quick.

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First thing I want to kind of talk about, and then after you hear the interviews,

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I've got something else to kind of dive into.

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But real quick, I just want to say that if you are a member of FOP,

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not in the leadership, just in the membership, you have to be discouraged.

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And if you don't know what FOP is, it's Fraternal Order of Police.

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I was a member as long as PBA, Police Benevolent Association,

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a member of both of those organizations in my life.

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And I really kind of, you know, understood that, you know, they always are going

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to go with the Republican candidate when they endorse people.

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But they're going to have to get out of that. Because if this election didn't

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make them realize that, I don't know what will.

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And I think they're going to suffer for that.

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Now, the organizations do good work.

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As far as protecting police officers from frivolous lawsuits and all that stuff,

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and even if police officers do cross the line, at least they make sure that

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those folks have legal representation,

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right, which is a constitutional right. So they provide that for them.

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Regardless of how you feel about those particular officers and all that,

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they are entitled to representation. And so those organizations make sure that

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those officers do at least get that.

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They may go over the top as far as protecting them, but that's a whole other show.

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And I've commented on that before. But, you know, I get that there were some

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people that were upset about some of the people that Biden pardoned,

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especially this guy that's been in jail for a long time.

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Peltier, who was a Native American who was convicted of killing two FBI agents back in the 70s.

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And there has been, if you've been in any big city in America,

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you've seen some stickers say, free Peltier or all that, on a light pole or somewhere.

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So this has been going on for a long time. And so now Biden pardoned him.

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And I know the FBI director was all upset about that.

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Former director Ray and a few other folks.

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But our new president, Donald Trump, has basically everybody who's been charged

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with the insurrection has now been pardoned.

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And this is a weird thing, right? Because January 6th, and I know we got to

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get on with the show, but it's January 6th, man.

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So just to give you a recap of what has happened over the last few days.

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So all of the people who participated in the insurrection, as far as being the

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party of insurrection, have been pardoned.

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Even the guys that got hit with the sedition charges, they're free to go.

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One of them even went back up to the Capitol building the first day that he was free or released.

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Right? Right.

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But then the police officers who tried to stop the insurrectionists had to be pardoned.

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And the committee members, the members

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of Congress who investigated the insurrection had to be pardoned, too.

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I think that is really, really insane. And I think if you are a member of a

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police organization that endorsed a guy who forced a previous president to pardon

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the police officers who were doing their job,

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and when that guy gets in office, he pardons the people who created the problem.

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And y'all endorsed the guy who created the problem.

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I think you need to revisit this endorsement process.

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I think you need to revisit how you evaluate candidates.

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Maybe you shouldn't even be involved in the endorsement process at all because,

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as the Capitol Police officers have shown, they have to protect the people who

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didn't even want to recognize them for the heroic act they did.

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They had to protect the guy while he was being sworn in.

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That attacked them. They had to protect that guy because they had the inauguration

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at the Capitol building.

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So I just wanted to get that off my chest before we got started.

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Maybe the police organizations don't need to publicly endorse candidates.

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And if you do decide to continue to endorse candidates, do a better job of vetting

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them, because that's really awkward to pay my, you know, pay FOP dues.

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And then the organization I'm paying dues endorses a candidate that is totally

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against what we stand for.

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Anyway, I just had to get that off my chest. All right. Now that I've done that,

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let's go ahead and get the program started.

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And as always, we start off with a moment of news with Grace Cheek.

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Music.

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Thanks, Eric. Donald Trump was sworn in as the 47th president of the United States in the U.S.

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Capitol Rotunda, declaring that America's decline was over in his inauguration speech.

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The Trump administration intensified efforts to dismantle diversity programs

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by urging government employees to report hidden DEI initiatives and placing

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certain administrators on paid leave.

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President Trump pardoned nearly all individuals charged in the January 6th Capitol

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attack, Ending legal consequences for most participants while directing the U.S.

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Attorney General to dismiss all pending cases related to the incident.

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Former President Joe Biden, before leaving office, pardoned the late Marcus

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Garvey, Don Leonard Scott, and Kemba Smith-Pradia.

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Biden then commuted the sentences of Robin Peoples, Michelle West,

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and Leonard Pelletier, while offering preemptive pardons to several people including

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Mark Milley, Anthony Fauci,

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members of the January 6th Select Committee, and members of his immediate family.

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A six-week ceasefire officially began in Gaza, reuniting three Israeli hostages

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with their mothers and allowing Palestinians to return to devastated neighborhoods.

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TikTok briefly went offline in the U.S. due to national security laws but was

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reinstated while in negotiations with the Trump administration.

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A U.S. Justice Department report highlighted excessive force and accountability

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failures in the Louisiana State Police following the 2019 death of Ronald Green.

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The U.S. Supreme Court seems poised to revive a civil rights lawsuit by Janice

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Hughes against a Houston police officer who fatally shot her son, Ashton Burns, in 2016.

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CNN settled with a U.S. Navy veteran after a jury found the network liable for

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defamation, agreeing to pay $5 million in damages.

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And the U.S. Justice Department questioned a $2.8 billion NCAA settlement,

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suggesting it might inadequately compensate athletes.

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I am Grace Gee, and this has been a.

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.

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And now it is time for my first guest, Jamie Mustard.

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Jamie Mustard is a conceptual artist, artistic director, futurist and writer,

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including his work on perception in the physical world relating to art, imagery and ideas.

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Jamie believes that emotional art is an accelerator of social change.

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His work on the endurance of ideas has been featured in Ford's Yahoo Finance,

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Bloomberg, ABC News, Flaunt Magazine, Psychology Today and NPR.

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Growing up in severe poverty and illiteracy in inner city Los Angeles,

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Jamie overcame obstacles to eventually reverse engineer ideas to help humans

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stand out based on primal laws.

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He believes that because of digital overload, we are all struggling to be seeing

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and experiencing the same invisibility he felt as a child and calls this the

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economics of attention.

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His books have won the National Indie Excellence Award, The Owl,

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Outstanding Works and Literature, given by the largest e-commerce bookseller

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in the world and runner up for the Pencraft Book Award for Literary Excellence.

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Jamie is co-author of the groundbreaking book, The Invisible Machine on the

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Biology of Trauma and a children's book about resilience.

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His latest book, The Iconist, is currently in-flight entertainment on American Airlines.

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A graduate of the London School of Economics, Jamie's work has included the

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world's leading universities, business, science, technology,

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art, design, creativity, and nonprofits.

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Nike, Cisco, Intel, Adidas.

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Symantec, Parsons, the New School, the Pratt Institute, Georgetown University,

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Pacific Northwest College of Art, Holt International Business School, U.S.

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Army Special Forces, U.S. Army Special Forces Psychological Operations,

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the Portland Art Museum, Content London, the California Department of Health,

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and TEDx at creative giant WeedInn. and Kennedy.

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In late fall 2025, his first graphic novel,

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Hybrid, will be released, a world written, conceived, and art directed by Jamie,

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with all images drawn and colored in a little stone town in southern Italy with

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artist Francesca Filomena.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Jamie Mustard.

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Music.

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All right. Jamie Mustard. How are you doing, sir? You doing good?

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I'm doing good. It's been a rough start to the day, but we're getting there. Yeah.

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Well, I understand. I work another job, man.

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And it's been snowing down here.

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Well, not snowing. We've had real icy conditions.

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And so I had to make sure employees got to work. I I had to kind of do some

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things I normally don't do at my job, but I'm here too, brother.

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So we're going to go ahead and push through this interview.

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I'm really, really excited to have you because I read your book, The Iconist.

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And I think people are going to benefit from this discussion.

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But let me go ahead and do what I normally do. So this first icebreaker I do is a quote.

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So this is the quote that I want you to respond to. This excessive,

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the excessive increase of anything often causes a reaction in the opposite direction.

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What does that quote mean to you?

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Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

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I think that quote means that when, I mean, I almost see that quote as a political,

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you know, right now with the politics going on in the world.

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I just think when there's, when people get overwhelmed with something,

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when there's too much of something, we tend to go the other way,

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you know, and I could say that in relation to information overload,

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you know, we get overloaded with all this information.

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We think we're taking it in, but we're all, but really we're hiding from it

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and kind of turning our backs and trying to keep it away from us because it overwhelms us.

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But I could also say that it, it really speaks to our politics.

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You know, as an artist, I try to not be political and look at things from more

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of a humanitarian lens or a humanist lens is a better way to say it.

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But I do think that we swung so hard in one direction that it caused the world

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to go another direction almost as a reflex.

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And I could be more specific about that, but that's what I'll say for now.

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Okay, that sounds good. And so now I want you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

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17. 17. All right. So your question is going to be, hold on. There we go.

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What's something about people who see the world differently than you that you've

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come to appreciate? Yeah.

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Oh, wow. That's such a good question. I'm so glad that I picked 17.

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I think that I had a really, really rough start to life.

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I grew up in urban Los Angeles under.

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Horrifically poor conditions or

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poverty conditions in an orphanage or an institutional-like environment.

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And I had, I didn't go to school. I was semi-literate until I was 19.

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I could read, I could read well, but I couldn't write beyond kindergarten at

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19, 20 years old. I didn't know how to use a comma.

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So I've had a rough start to life. And then I look at what my life is now, what I do now.

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You know, I, I ended up going to a very kind of rarefied university in England.

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That's hard to, one of the more rarefied in, you know, after being semi-literate

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most of my life, you know, and I did that very quickly.

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And now I do what I do now, which is, you know, I'm writing books,

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I'm making art, I'm doing lots of different things.

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And a lot of times people asked me, like, how do you, when you have such a brutal

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gauntlet at such a young age, how do you not, how do you become you?

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Like, how does that happen? Right. And I do think that this goes to the question.

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I do think that a major part of the reason that I'd be able to do the things that I'm able to do.

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And I was able to overcome the things I've been able to come. I had help.

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I don't believe in, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. I think it takes a

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lot of people to pull somebody up.

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And I had angels that pulled me up.

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But I think that I was always curious about people,

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like no matter who they were, if they were rich, if they were poor,

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if they were different than me, if they were the same as me,

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I kind of always wanted to hear people's stories and what they'd been through.

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And I think that I was always looking, no matter who the person was.

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I mean, I remember one time walking down the street in London and a guy asked me for some money.

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And I said, I won't give you some money, but I'll buy you breakfast,

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thinking that he would then not want me to do it.

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And he said, okay, let's get breakfast.

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And then he took me behind the fancy restaurant that was right there to a side

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street to this little kind of working man's cafe.

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And I sat there with that guy for an hour and a half and listened to him tell me about his life.

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And it was very representative of British classism. His life was predetermined

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for him before he was born.

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And so whether that's a story from somebody that succeeded or a story from like

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that guy, everything in the middle, I just think that you can learn.

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I was wanting to understand how to get out of my circumstances.

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And by talking to everyone you could possibly talk to and hear every circumstance

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you could possibly hear.

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I think I, that curiosity in other people is, is really, and,

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and kind of taking in their stories and synthesizing them.

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And what can I learn even from someone that you think you can't learn from?

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You can learn from everyone.

00:21:00.550 --> 00:21:05.350
And that's kind of, it sounds cliche, but it is the most powerful.

00:21:05.350 --> 00:21:11.710
If you think like that, it is the most powerful ray gun in the world.

00:21:11.710 --> 00:21:19.370
It'll help you to dematerialize any, you know, wall in front of you.

00:21:19.970 --> 00:21:24.350
Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, it really is. That's pretty cool.

00:21:24.530 --> 00:21:30.510
That kind of explains a lot. And there's a question I'll kind of get to to kind

00:21:30.510 --> 00:21:31.770
of flesh that out a little more.

00:21:31.770 --> 00:21:39.950
But the name of the book is The Iconist that you've written and I wanted to talk to you about.

00:21:40.510 --> 00:21:42.450
So define Iconist.

00:21:43.819 --> 00:21:48.799
An iconist is someone that understands that the world is now overloaded with too much content.

00:21:49.419 --> 00:21:53.999
So they understand that no one can see them because there's,

00:21:54.139 --> 00:22:00.359
you know, we're bombarded with, you know, 1950, we all saw about 250 advertising messages a day.

00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:03.399
By 1970, that was a thousand.

00:22:03.939 --> 00:22:10.859
By the 19, late nineties, that was 7,000. Today, thought experiments,

00:22:10.999 --> 00:22:13.519
they were hit with about 15,000 messages a day.

00:22:13.819 --> 00:22:16.099
The human brain couldn't process a thousand.

00:22:16.659 --> 00:22:21.559
So what that means is you're invisible because there's too much stuff going on around you.

00:22:22.379 --> 00:22:29.179
So an iconist is someone that understands that and uses, looks for and uses techniques.

00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:30.479
And I have one in the book. I

00:22:30.479 --> 00:22:34.439
come up with these things that I call primal laws of why we pay attention.

00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:40.679
They seek to use the laws of what causes a human being to pay attention and

00:22:40.679 --> 00:22:46.859
to adjust themselves into those laws so that they can be seen despite information overload.

00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:51.159
That is an iconist. An iconist uses these primal laws to get attention,

00:22:51.159 --> 00:22:56.179
to get the attention they deserve for the passion or message or work or whatever

00:22:56.179 --> 00:22:57.259
they want to put into the world.

00:22:58.099 --> 00:23:00.819
All right. So I'm going to

00:23:00.819 --> 00:23:07.059
name some former presidents and you tell me if they fit the definition of iconist

00:23:07.059 --> 00:23:14.099
you just gave and you can just say yes or no if you want to expound on why or

00:23:14.099 --> 00:23:18.179
why not that's fine too first one donald trump.

00:23:19.351 --> 00:23:22.791
The ultimate iconist, whether love him or hate him, he's the ultimate iconist.

00:23:23.551 --> 00:23:28.491
He understands how to read the room, whether you like what he's reading or,

00:23:28.551 --> 00:23:30.151
you know, whether you like it or not, doesn't matter.

00:23:30.311 --> 00:23:34.291
I'm not, I'm not, you know, again, I don't want to get political personally

00:23:34.291 --> 00:23:38.091
because I don't, I see it as very nuanced.

00:23:39.291 --> 00:23:43.511
But Donald Trump's the ultimate iconist. I kind of had a feeling he was going

00:23:43.511 --> 00:23:45.171
to say that. Gerald Ford.

00:23:46.731 --> 00:23:49.451
No. Barack Obama. him.

00:23:50.671 --> 00:23:55.451
Yes. Barack Obama's up there. Top five.

00:23:56.451 --> 00:24:04.071
Jimmy Carter. Top five. You know, maybe not an icon as a president,

00:24:04.071 --> 00:24:08.271
but one of the most important human beings to walk the earth in the last 100 years.

00:24:08.771 --> 00:24:11.491
Bill Clinton. Number two.

00:24:13.731 --> 00:24:19.311
Behind Donald Trump. I met Bill Clinton when I I was in college and it was one

00:24:19.311 --> 00:24:25.291
of the, you know, I was at a private kind of dinner with him when I was interning in D.C.

00:24:26.071 --> 00:24:28.971
It was him and a room full of Republicans, actually.

00:24:29.231 --> 00:24:33.831
And that was one of the most profound experiences of my entire life,

00:24:34.051 --> 00:24:41.251
being shockingly being in the room with that guy, watching him take this crowd that was hostile.

00:24:41.531 --> 00:24:45.991
I mean, they were grumbling. It was a hostile, hostile crowd.

00:24:46.831 --> 00:24:51.791
And I remember walking, seeing this guy get up in this small kind of event space.

00:24:52.051 --> 00:24:54.291
You know, there was maybe a couple hundred people there, maybe less,

00:24:54.391 --> 00:24:54.991
maybe a hundred, you know.

00:24:56.311 --> 00:25:02.791
And within 90 seconds, he had them on their feet. And I was confused by it.

00:25:03.411 --> 00:25:07.111
How did this guy do that? I spent a lot of years trying to figure out how Bill

00:25:07.111 --> 00:25:09.711
Clinton took a hostile crowd to their feet in 90 seconds.

00:25:10.011 --> 00:25:11.931
Yeah. George W. Bush.

00:25:13.203 --> 00:25:17.603
No. Okay. That went about the way I kind of thought, but, you know,

00:25:17.743 --> 00:25:22.043
and I definitely wanted to touch on that. And I totally agree.

00:25:22.383 --> 00:25:27.603
Regardless of your political affiliation, Donald Trump is, by basis of what

00:25:27.603 --> 00:25:32.203
I've read in your book and your definition, he is the ultimate.

00:25:33.503 --> 00:25:37.463
Why did you as an artist feel the need to write this book?

00:25:37.543 --> 00:25:41.623
Now, I know you've written other books, but why this particular book?

00:25:42.403 --> 00:25:46.343
Well, you know, as we were saying, I think we were saying this before we came

00:25:46.343 --> 00:25:50.603
on the air, I had a very strange childhood because my family,

00:25:50.623 --> 00:25:52.403
you know, had accomplished some things.

00:25:53.003 --> 00:25:59.123
And then my mother got caught up with some strange ideas.

00:26:00.203 --> 00:26:04.863
I mean, it was, you know, that time, you know, in the 70s, people were doing some crazy stuff.

00:26:04.863 --> 00:26:07.823
And I ended up being

00:26:07.823 --> 00:26:10.763
born in a under very

00:26:10.763 --> 00:26:14.903
difficult circumstances where I was in an institutional type environment

00:26:14.903 --> 00:26:17.763
not run by the government run by kind of a course

00:26:17.763 --> 00:26:25.043
high course of control group and raised in a kind of abject poverty and place

00:26:25.043 --> 00:26:29.063
of psychological abuse that one can hard be hard to imagine so it was urban

00:26:29.063 --> 00:26:33.143
Los Angeles it was drought ridden it was the burning You know,

00:26:33.283 --> 00:26:35.343
Los Angeles was burning in a different way.

00:26:35.463 --> 00:26:38.163
It was just a constant thrum of heat.

00:26:39.403 --> 00:26:45.923
And I was an invisible person. I had been thrown away and I was in an environment

00:26:45.923 --> 00:26:48.403
where I was invisible and didn't matter, would never matter.

00:26:50.363 --> 00:26:56.763
And through hard work and the help of people and, you know, angels that came

00:26:56.763 --> 00:26:59.423
along the way, I was able to.

00:27:01.005 --> 00:27:05.525
Rise out of that environment and become who I am now.

00:27:05.765 --> 00:27:09.205
And I did that by reverse engineering.

00:27:09.845 --> 00:27:14.485
I would look around me at people that were, had things that I wanted and I would

00:27:14.485 --> 00:27:16.865
study them in a very deep way.

00:27:16.965 --> 00:27:19.125
Not just like, Hey, I'm studying that person.

00:27:19.325 --> 00:27:23.905
No, I would sit down and go, how did that, what is that person doing that makes them have that?

00:27:24.065 --> 00:27:30.045
Whether it be great communication skills, education, money, popularity,

00:27:30.625 --> 00:27:32.045
you know, whatever it was.

00:27:32.145 --> 00:27:35.025
And I would reverse engineer how they did it.

00:27:35.525 --> 00:27:41.925
And after, you know, 20 years of that, I had a pattern of how people,

00:27:42.925 --> 00:27:45.245
why people notice things and why things endured.

00:27:45.505 --> 00:27:48.105
I kind of had kind of done that without even thinking.

00:27:48.805 --> 00:27:51.305
I did it to survive and I did it to overcome.

00:27:52.085 --> 00:27:56.365
And I'll never forget, Eric, the invisibility I felt as a child,

00:27:56.525 --> 00:28:01.525
just being, I mean, if you had driven by me in downtown Los Angeles or east

00:28:01.525 --> 00:28:03.105
side of Los Angeles as a kid,

00:28:03.445 --> 00:28:07.665
I would have been as about as you, I would have faded into the brick.

00:28:08.005 --> 00:28:11.065
I couldn't have existed less.

00:28:12.525 --> 00:28:20.265
And that feeling of feeling invisible I believe we all feel that now that information

00:28:20.265 --> 00:28:22.705
overload has made us all feel like we can't,

00:28:23.525 --> 00:28:28.325
Get our expression seen And I didn't like feeling that way and I don't want

00:28:28.325 --> 00:28:34.445
anyone of any class or any race to feel that way so I wrote this book so that people could,

00:28:35.265 --> 00:28:40.825
Get their expressions Of who they are seen in the world because I think that

00:28:40.825 --> 00:28:43.365
is a massive component to,

00:28:44.245 --> 00:28:50.165
personal fulfillment in life So that was the reason I did it I didn't want people

00:28:50.165 --> 00:28:56.785
to feel the way that I felt growing up So Do you have family still in LA now?

00:28:57.445 --> 00:29:00.825
I do Yeah, everybody's good as far as you know.

00:29:01.977 --> 00:29:07.997
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's been a, it's been a really strange week and

00:29:07.997 --> 00:29:15.457
watching my, you know, hometown burn has been really emotional.

00:29:16.597 --> 00:29:19.917
I feel, I kind of feel like I saw it coming. It's one of the reasons I left

00:29:19.917 --> 00:29:25.317
over a decade ago when I drove out of LA and put my stuff in the moving truck

00:29:25.317 --> 00:29:27.737
and drove out of LA, it was on fire.

00:29:28.857 --> 00:29:31.477
But, you know, I have a very, you know, ambivalent, you know,

00:29:31.557 --> 00:29:33.057
kind of an interesting relationship with LA.

00:29:33.197 --> 00:29:36.897
It was a crucible for me of suffering, which I hated.

00:29:37.117 --> 00:29:41.777
But I did grow up in these incredible neighborhoods with Mexican people and

00:29:41.777 --> 00:29:48.177
Guatemalan people and Nicaraguan people and Filipinos and Armenians and Koreans, and I hated it.

00:29:48.457 --> 00:29:53.837
But when I got older and I started traveling the world and moving around and

00:29:53.837 --> 00:29:55.377
being around different types of people.

00:29:55.777 --> 00:30:05.077
I was so grateful for living in such a cultural mix and seeing so many different

00:30:05.077 --> 00:30:09.657
perspectives of all the people that live in Los Angeles. So grateful.

00:30:09.897 --> 00:30:14.137
So, and I love that place. I love the mountains. I love the beaches.

00:30:14.437 --> 00:30:17.997
I love downtown. I love Hollywood. I love.

00:30:19.017 --> 00:30:22.277
It's the city that made me and there's

00:30:22.277 --> 00:30:25.037
so many people in that place when I

00:30:25.037 --> 00:30:28.517
was really not going to make it you

00:30:28.517 --> 00:30:32.457
know that stepped in

00:30:32.457 --> 00:30:35.397
and did things for me so I mean

00:30:35.397 --> 00:30:38.217
there was even I mean

00:30:38.217 --> 00:30:41.217
there was when I was nine years old and really really down

00:30:41.217 --> 00:30:44.237
and out you know there was a

00:30:44.237 --> 00:30:47.517
a male prostitute on hollywood

00:30:47.517 --> 00:30:50.557
and vine that kind of

00:30:50.557 --> 00:30:57.517
you know saw me as somebody that was kind of by himself and alone and and he

00:30:57.517 --> 00:31:04.597
helped me so you know i feel like that city saved me and you know it burned

00:31:04.597 --> 00:31:09.877
me and then it saved me and so yeah i have watching it be on fire has been you know.

00:31:11.313 --> 00:31:15.113
Difficult, emotional, because I do, at this point in my life,

00:31:15.253 --> 00:31:20.593
I have deep, deep love and much, much affection for the city of Los Angeles.

00:31:21.093 --> 00:31:25.813
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I hope that the people that you care about there,

00:31:25.913 --> 00:31:28.513
that they're okay. But I have to ask you that, considering.

00:31:28.873 --> 00:31:32.593
Yeah, my people have done well. They're not living in the Palisades,

00:31:32.713 --> 00:31:36.633
you know, but my brother, you know, lived in, I had a brother that lived in

00:31:36.633 --> 00:31:39.513
Altadena for a long time. And I, you know, and my friends have,

00:31:39.653 --> 00:31:43.573
you know, I've been, I've been lucky. Yeah. Yeah.

00:31:44.393 --> 00:31:50.313
All right. So getting back to the book, what is the significance of blocks?

00:31:51.073 --> 00:31:55.873
A block, you know, sometimes I wish I didn't call it that, but a block is taken

00:31:55.873 --> 00:32:02.073
from a toy block that you would, you would give a baby.

00:32:02.973 --> 00:32:08.073
I want to say for, because we're on here that this book, if you're traveling on American airlines.

00:32:08.933 --> 00:32:14.993
Okay. The iconist audio book is part of in-flight entertainment on American

00:32:14.993 --> 00:32:17.513
airlines right now, which I'm really proud of by the way. Okay.

00:32:18.213 --> 00:32:22.693
But a block is basically, you know, if you take a toy block and you put it in

00:32:22.693 --> 00:32:27.773
front of a baby, it will transfix them. They will fixate on it.

00:32:28.513 --> 00:32:35.273
And, and I studied why, you know, well, first of all, a toy block to a baby.

00:32:36.993 --> 00:32:40.273
Is massive. It's close to them, right? It's in it.

00:32:40.453 --> 00:32:46.113
And there's something about the kind of the geometrical simplicity of it with

00:32:46.113 --> 00:32:50.013
the intricacy of the number that magnetizes a baby's attention.

00:32:50.593 --> 00:32:55.473
And so I started studying this and, and when we have something really,

00:32:55.473 --> 00:32:58.913
really simple and then something complex within it,

00:32:59.533 --> 00:33:09.433
those two poles, the simple and the complex magnetizes human attention like a tractor beam.

00:33:09.973 --> 00:33:15.673
So I started to research, is there something about the way a baby looks at a

00:33:15.673 --> 00:33:19.733
toy block that continues on through human development?

00:33:19.733 --> 00:33:26.913
Is there a version of that that will cause a human being, a human adult to fixate and pay attention.

00:33:27.413 --> 00:33:32.153
Right. That was kind of what I was getting curious about. And the answer is 100% yes.

00:33:32.853 --> 00:33:38.493
And so a block is this kind of simple thing that if you repeat it over and over,

00:33:38.693 --> 00:33:45.133
you can take any audience and make something iconic in their mind in a matter

00:33:45.133 --> 00:33:48.673
of minutes rather than months, years, or decades?

00:33:48.893 --> 00:33:51.293
You know, why do we call a Kleenex a Kleenex or a Coke a Coke?

00:33:51.593 --> 00:33:55.933
We think it's an accident or a coincidence. And in many cases, it is.

00:33:56.033 --> 00:34:00.773
But what if you could make something iconic to your desired audience that.

00:34:01.735 --> 00:34:09.595
At will, in moments. So I break down those laws of how you can use the repetition

00:34:09.595 --> 00:34:14.835
of a simple image to make anything iconic in the mind of your desired audience.

00:34:14.835 --> 00:34:19.875
And a block is that simple thing that you're repeating. It's an icon waiting to happen.

00:34:20.415 --> 00:34:24.235
It's an icon in progress. Like if I started iconing a phrase or a word to you

00:34:24.235 --> 00:34:25.895
right now, that would be a block.

00:34:26.055 --> 00:34:29.735
If I did it to you 15 times, you wouldn't be able to get out of your head.

00:34:30.015 --> 00:34:32.915
Now it's an icon. It's an icon to Eric. Yeah.

00:34:33.595 --> 00:34:37.995
Yeah. So why is perfection deception?

00:34:39.335 --> 00:34:42.275
Well, let's take this back to Donald Trump. Okay.

00:34:43.295 --> 00:34:47.995
You know, people, I, when I look at Donald Trump, I'm more interested in how

00:34:47.995 --> 00:34:51.535
and why, you know, and I think there it's complicated.

00:34:51.715 --> 00:34:56.355
I think part of the answer to that is it goes to the first question you asked.

00:34:56.575 --> 00:35:01.795
When there's an excess of anything, we have a reaction in the opposite direction.

00:35:02.635 --> 00:35:12.215
So there has been a, and again, I'm not saying this as my own political affiliation either way.

00:35:12.455 --> 00:35:17.795
I tend to be a pretty compassionate guy, but I don't think it's my job to look

00:35:17.795 --> 00:35:19.075
at things through a political lens.

00:35:19.215 --> 00:35:22.235
I think it's my job to look at things through a humanist lens and I'm pretty

00:35:22.235 --> 00:35:28.035
disciplined about it, but we've had a lefting of the world in a very, very fast way.

00:35:28.655 --> 00:35:34.155
Ideologically, doesn't matter whether you believe it or not in terms of gender,

00:35:34.155 --> 00:35:41.015
in terms of race, in terms of, you know, all these things, it's been very fast and very strong. Okay.

00:35:42.275 --> 00:35:50.935
And so you just, and, and so I think that too fast and too strong.

00:35:51.215 --> 00:35:55.655
Like if you look at even say, and again, I'm not talking about wrong or right.

00:35:55.815 --> 00:35:57.675
I'm just trying to about understanding. Okay.

00:35:57.915 --> 00:36:00.815
If you look at say the majority of America is still barely white,

00:36:01.135 --> 00:36:04.455
still, still white, but barely, but it's still white. You know what that means?

00:36:05.015 --> 00:36:09.975
That means that the majority of poor people in America are white.

00:36:10.515 --> 00:36:13.735
Now, when you go and you, and again, I'm not qualifying this,

00:36:13.815 --> 00:36:19.015
but when you go and you tell those people that they're privileged or they're

00:36:19.015 --> 00:36:23.575
fragile, doesn't matter if they are or not, they're going to go vote for Trump.

00:36:23.755 --> 00:36:29.755
It's too much ideology without their brains being able to understand it or wrap their head around it.

00:36:29.955 --> 00:36:35.055
And so then you get this reaction in the opposite direction.

00:36:35.775 --> 00:36:39.335
So that's the first part. But what was the question again?

00:36:40.035 --> 00:36:44.795
Why is perfection deception? Okay. So I think that's the setup for Trump. Okay.

00:36:45.075 --> 00:36:49.575
So that's the setup for Trump. If you look at politicians, okay,

00:36:50.275 --> 00:36:53.275
you know, politicians that are good, you know, I really, people are going to

00:36:53.275 --> 00:36:56.395
hate me for saying this, but I, I had, I liked Hillary Clinton.

00:36:56.875 --> 00:37:00.915
I thought she was a policy. I like policy wonks. I liked.

00:37:02.248 --> 00:37:08.148
Mitt Romney. He was a policy wonk. Obamacare is based on Romneycare.

00:37:09.468 --> 00:37:15.208
I like people that are really, really into policy and creating change through

00:37:15.208 --> 00:37:18.288
policy, despite whatever their political affiliation is.

00:37:19.568 --> 00:37:23.948
If you look at those politicians, the ones I named, you can include Joe Biden in this.

00:37:24.048 --> 00:37:27.168
You can include Kamala Harris in this. You could include Jeb Bush in this.

00:37:27.248 --> 00:37:31.128
You could include ted cruz in this when they

00:37:31.128 --> 00:37:34.408
go and do speeches they're they've surveyed

00:37:34.408 --> 00:37:37.408
everyone they've surveyed the world they've surveyed

00:37:37.408 --> 00:37:40.748
america and they're trying to tell you based

00:37:40.748 --> 00:37:43.608
on those surveys or based on how how they're

00:37:43.608 --> 00:37:49.528
reading the room what you want to hear okay am i allowed to swear in his podcast

00:37:49.528 --> 00:38:00.848
yeah you can you can swear okay donald trump doesn't give a fuck about that okay he okay.

00:38:02.408 --> 00:38:08.308
He's he's in a world where everybody sounds canned he sounds like he's shooting

00:38:08.308 --> 00:38:11.488
from the hip and telling you what he actually thinks bill clinton had that gift

00:38:11.488 --> 00:38:16.468
barack a lot less but he still had it. But Bill Clinton really had that gift.

00:38:16.928 --> 00:38:21.268
I would say him and Trump are probably similar in that gift.

00:38:21.528 --> 00:38:24.728
Trump has other things that he does better. Bill has other things that he does better.

00:38:24.808 --> 00:38:30.628
But that gift of making it seem like it's actually coming from you and not some

00:38:30.628 --> 00:38:32.088
sort of populist survey –.

00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:39.420
It is, it's not, he's not trying to be perfect and give you this exact thing that you think he wants.

00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:41.900
It's flawed. It's imperfect.

00:38:42.620 --> 00:38:48.640
And when something's a little flawed or imperfect, we think it's more honest,

00:38:48.780 --> 00:38:52.120
even if it's not, that's really what it comes down to.

00:38:52.740 --> 00:38:56.060
And we like imperfection more than we know we do.

00:38:56.160 --> 00:38:59.440
There's a great designer who designed the talking heads covers and these incredible

00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:05.240
covers in the eighties named Tibor Kalman. and he used to say perfectly off, just right.

00:39:05.780 --> 00:39:10.180
So because he doesn't sound canned, it doesn't matter. You could have somebody

00:39:10.180 --> 00:39:13.600
that sounds canned that isn't, that's completely heart-driven.

00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:20.020
And then you could have somebody that's a diabolical and nefarious that doesn't

00:39:20.020 --> 00:39:26.820
sound canned and actually sounds like he's speaking from his heart or his gut.

00:39:27.520 --> 00:39:33.520
We're always going to be more attracted to the person that we think isn't just

00:39:33.520 --> 00:39:36.700
telling us what we want to hear based on a bunch of data analysis.

00:39:37.220 --> 00:39:41.700
And so that's what I mean by perfectionist deception.

00:39:41.900 --> 00:39:44.960
You know, we're advertised to, like, if you look at American advertising,

00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:49.640
it's a bunch of people talking about themselves and saying how great they are.

00:39:49.980 --> 00:39:54.920
And by the mid, by the nineties, the lid, that was really effective in the beginning

00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:58.380
of the 19th century, all the way up to the 1950s and even 70s,

00:39:59.040 --> 00:40:02.780
by the 80s, 90s, people started to not believe advertising.

00:40:02.980 --> 00:40:06.460
It's full of unsubstantiated claims. Another word for an unsubstantiated claim is a lie.

00:40:06.780 --> 00:40:08.960
You come out and tell the truth about your product or service,

00:40:09.080 --> 00:40:10.740
but you're doing it in a climate of liars.

00:40:11.020 --> 00:40:17.800
We don't trust self-promotion anymore. We don't trust advertising anymore because it's too perfect.

00:40:18.160 --> 00:40:23.840
So we actually, because we were so, perfection was marketed to us for so long.

00:40:24.709 --> 00:40:29.069
Actually drawn to things that seem imperfect.

00:40:29.669 --> 00:40:34.949
Imperfection, we now associate imperfection with authenticity. I'm not saying it is.

00:40:35.029 --> 00:40:39.549
I'm just saying in the lizard brain, if something is not perfect and rough around

00:40:39.549 --> 00:40:43.529
the edges, we're going to be far more drawn to that than a bunch of polish,

00:40:43.529 --> 00:40:45.069
which we all think is bullshit now.

00:40:45.709 --> 00:40:48.589
Right. Yeah. And I mean, I

00:40:48.589 --> 00:40:51.729
think this last presidential election really

00:40:51.729 --> 00:40:55.849
illustrates what you were saying and it

00:40:55.849 --> 00:40:59.649
was the one reference i think it was about camel cigarettes when

00:40:59.649 --> 00:41:03.229
you when when you put that down i was

00:41:03.229 --> 00:41:06.249
like i remember that ad about the

00:41:06.249 --> 00:41:10.329
most doctors prefer camel cigarettes yeah yeah

00:41:10.329 --> 00:41:13.229
i i remember that as a young child i remember

00:41:13.229 --> 00:41:16.269
that which chapter in part

00:41:16.269 --> 00:41:19.449
three best describes an iconic strategy

00:41:19.449 --> 00:41:22.709
for a political campaign is it

00:41:22.709 --> 00:41:32.489
road signs magnetize signals arrow and shaft or breed god then you this is good

00:41:32.489 --> 00:41:38.409
man you did read the book you read the book man you read the book god i mean

00:41:38.409 --> 00:41:39.949
that's a it's a really tough one.

00:41:39.969 --> 00:41:44.729
I would say it would be between signals or error with shaft,

00:41:45.309 --> 00:41:53.669
really having a deep understanding of what people care about. And then.

00:41:54.984 --> 00:42:00.124
Repeating it to the point where it feels ridiculous. That's the mistake that

00:42:00.124 --> 00:42:02.704
people don't make is like, what is it that people actually care about?

00:42:02.884 --> 00:42:06.404
And then repeating it. And again, I do have a chapter in there where I say you

00:42:06.404 --> 00:42:07.904
need to do that and tell the truth.

00:42:08.044 --> 00:42:11.064
So I'm not, you know, you know, a lot of the book, one of the things that I

00:42:11.064 --> 00:42:16.004
give Orwell, a lot of credit for the book, you know, I say basically like he

00:42:16.004 --> 00:42:17.924
talks about how, you know, in 1984,

00:42:18.244 --> 00:42:22.484
how, you know, if you use repetitive imagery and repetitive language that you

00:42:22.484 --> 00:42:24.584
can sway opinion, even when it's not true.

00:42:25.004 --> 00:42:29.304
And he writes about it in this way where he's basically saying this is a nefarious act.

00:42:30.124 --> 00:42:33.484
And what I argue in the book is, no, this is not a nefarious act.

00:42:33.604 --> 00:42:36.904
This is like saying a phone is nefarious or a computer or TV. It's a tool.

00:42:37.444 --> 00:42:40.064
And it can be used in a bad way or it can be used in a good way.

00:42:40.264 --> 00:42:43.964
It has more to do with the way that you, Eric, and everyone listening takes

00:42:43.964 --> 00:42:46.404
in information. We like repetitive simplicity.

00:42:47.044 --> 00:42:48.644
It's how we interpret the world.

00:42:49.884 --> 00:42:55.204
So I think taking something, repeating it, explaining it, repeating it,

00:42:55.204 --> 00:42:57.684
maybe arrow and shaft, repeating it, explaining it, repeating it,

00:42:57.744 --> 00:43:00.944
explaining it, but repeating that one thing over and over and over and over

00:43:00.944 --> 00:43:04.644
again to the point of discomfort, far beyond discomfort,

00:43:05.384 --> 00:43:08.644
that is probably the one.

00:43:08.644 --> 00:43:11.464
Well i i know i wasn't often because i

00:43:11.464 --> 00:43:14.364
i felt arrow and shaft would be

00:43:14.364 --> 00:43:17.264
the one because the concept of an

00:43:17.264 --> 00:43:20.424
arrow is like you have to have that arrowhead to penetrate

00:43:20.424 --> 00:43:23.504
and then the shaft as you

00:43:23.504 --> 00:43:29.524
you you allegorize i guess for lack of a better term the shaft determines the

00:43:29.524 --> 00:43:34.164
direction so it's like you can have something that penetrates but if that shaft

00:43:34.164 --> 00:43:39.104
is not attached to it one it may not hit where you want to hit and you know

00:43:39.104 --> 00:43:42.964
it makes sure that it that that is stable,

00:43:43.764 --> 00:43:49.844
exactly and so the information the the information behind the slogan or the

00:43:49.844 --> 00:43:52.724
idea is what validates the slogan.

00:43:54.255 --> 00:43:58.975
Absolutely. I mean, I think it works in two ways. I think it's directional because

00:43:58.975 --> 00:44:02.855
it puts substance behind this kind of simple thing that you're going to repeat.

00:44:03.115 --> 00:44:05.435
I mean, the other thing that Donald Trump does so well is the way he would give

00:44:05.435 --> 00:44:07.695
people nicknames and they would stick,

00:44:08.095 --> 00:44:12.735
you know, like Sleepy Jeb or, you know, Crooked Hillary, you know,

00:44:13.075 --> 00:44:19.535
like he had this really incredible way of like giving an enemy a nickname and then repeating it.

00:44:19.535 --> 00:44:22.175
And then it would, people would take it up and they would start calling them,

00:44:22.215 --> 00:44:26.575
you know, it was incredible the way he would use stuff, the way he would do that.

00:44:26.775 --> 00:44:33.155
But yeah, I think that the complexity and the substance behind your simple arrowhead.

00:44:33.655 --> 00:44:34.915
Is what gives it direction.

00:44:34.915 --> 00:44:39.055
But I also think there's a component of like the toy block I talked about in

00:44:39.055 --> 00:44:41.275
the beginning, when you have something simple, like a triangle,

00:44:41.455 --> 00:44:44.255
a square, or a circle, and you put any sort

00:44:44.255 --> 00:44:47.795
of flourish or intricacy in it like a letter or anything when

00:44:47.795 --> 00:44:50.755
when you mix the ultra ultra geometrical and simple

00:44:50.755 --> 00:44:54.735
like a circle triangle square rectangle with

00:44:54.735 --> 00:45:04.255
some sort of intricacy i don't i i it it really grabs the eye and yeah yeah

00:45:04.255 --> 00:45:11.195
but the repetition factor with some sort of substance behind it is the most

00:45:11.195 --> 00:45:13.315
important part, for sure. Yeah.

00:45:13.795 --> 00:45:16.695
So let me close out the questioning with this one.

00:45:16.835 --> 00:45:22.435
In this modern political era, why is it important for politicians to embrace

00:45:22.435 --> 00:45:24.755
the concept of radical simplicity?

00:45:26.249 --> 00:45:29.869
Because people are so overwhelmed with content.

00:45:30.489 --> 00:45:33.149
Like, you know, there was a woman that was doing research. I talk about this

00:45:33.149 --> 00:45:37.009
in the book for Microsoft and Apple in the late 90s.

00:45:37.389 --> 00:45:43.749
And she, Linda Stone, she coined the term continuous partial attention.

00:45:44.709 --> 00:45:49.749
Basically saying that we're overwhelmed with so much content now that the people

00:45:49.749 --> 00:45:52.769
that you're talking to about anything are only partially paying attention because

00:45:52.769 --> 00:45:55.229
there's too much content coming at them.

00:45:55.229 --> 00:45:58.549
Okay that was before the internet what is

00:45:58.549 --> 00:46:01.569
if that if we had continuous partial attention in 97 98

00:46:01.569 --> 00:46:04.229
when linda was doing this research what's our

00:46:04.229 --> 00:46:08.769
attention like now because we're overwhelmed with content so you need to recognize

00:46:08.769 --> 00:46:12.549
everyone needs to recognize that that the people that they're trying to communicate

00:46:12.549 --> 00:46:15.749
in the world have no bandwidth they're distracted by everything coming at them

00:46:15.749 --> 00:46:23.809
so if you take something really really simple and you add emotion and you just repeat it,

00:46:23.969 --> 00:46:27.609
repeat it, repeat it, repeat it, repeat it, repeat it, repeat it,

00:46:27.789 --> 00:46:29.649
repeat it, repeat it, repeat it.

00:46:29.769 --> 00:46:36.929
It cuts through that distraction like a laser. It causes someone to stop being

00:46:36.929 --> 00:46:41.029
distracted and lock on you because you're repeating the simple thing.

00:46:41.589 --> 00:46:46.469
And so radical simplicity, coming up with a really simple way to communicate

00:46:46.469 --> 00:46:50.469
who and what you are, and then repeating it to the point where It makes you

00:46:50.469 --> 00:46:53.969
feel very uncomfortable, like naked in a public space.

00:46:55.209 --> 00:46:59.529
When you embrace that, anyone can be seen for anything at any time.

00:47:00.189 --> 00:47:03.229
So it's, it's urgent. And I'll say this last thing about it.

00:47:03.309 --> 00:47:05.029
It's urgent for our happiness too.

00:47:05.169 --> 00:47:09.669
You know, there's that concept in Maslow of when we get above the basic needs

00:47:09.669 --> 00:47:15.929
of food and shelter, we start to get, we, then we become concerned with self-actualization,

00:47:16.609 --> 00:47:17.909
transcending into ourselves.

00:47:17.909 --> 00:47:24.189
If we can't get the expressions of our human self seen by others,

00:47:24.409 --> 00:47:28.649
whether it's our work or our art or whatever that thing is that we care about

00:47:28.649 --> 00:47:29.769
that we want to put in the world,

00:47:30.049 --> 00:47:33.809
we feel small, depressed, anxious.

00:47:34.229 --> 00:47:36.029
It ruins us.

00:47:36.769 --> 00:47:41.969
So radical simplicity is the only way to get the attention that we deserve.

00:47:41.969 --> 00:47:47.569
It's it's it's not just a problem for work or advertising, you know,

00:47:47.749 --> 00:47:49.389
promotion or mute or art.

00:47:49.589 --> 00:47:52.169
It is essential for the human soul.

00:47:52.869 --> 00:47:57.789
So, Jamie, speaking about putting out in the world, this is the time where I

00:47:57.789 --> 00:47:59.789
allow the guests to do their promotion.

00:48:00.329 --> 00:48:03.969
So how can people get the iconist?

00:48:04.689 --> 00:48:05.989
You'd already mentioned that

00:48:05.989 --> 00:48:09.869
it's on in-flight entertainment for American Airlines. For free, for free.

00:48:10.149 --> 00:48:14.769
But, you know, it's five hours long. You can listen to my dulcet tones as I read it.

00:48:15.229 --> 00:48:18.489
It's over five hours long. But, yeah, it's there. The Iconist is available everywhere.

00:48:18.609 --> 00:48:19.949
It's on Amazon. It's in bookstores.

00:48:21.226 --> 00:48:26.386
You know, it's all over. The Iconist, The Art and Science of Standing Out by me.

00:48:26.806 --> 00:48:30.626
Yeah, so that's that. You know, and I'm very proud of that book.

00:48:30.726 --> 00:48:32.866
You know, that book was critically acclaimed and it's done well.

00:48:33.106 --> 00:48:38.406
But I feel like that book should be one of the most known books in the world.

00:48:38.586 --> 00:48:39.686
What's in there is so important.

00:48:39.906 --> 00:48:46.766
So I feel like, you know, I want people to know what's in there.

00:48:46.986 --> 00:48:55.526
Well, I'm glad that you did the Audible. I always prefer the author to be the

00:48:55.526 --> 00:48:59.906
one reading their book as opposed to a voiceover person,

00:48:59.906 --> 00:49:02.846
even though they're professionals and all that.

00:49:02.946 --> 00:49:07.866
But it means something when the author does it, so you can really get into it.

00:49:07.946 --> 00:49:09.986
So I'm so glad that you did that.

00:49:10.626 --> 00:49:15.866
But what else are you working on, and how can people get in touch with you?

00:49:16.826 --> 00:49:21.166
That's good. Okay, well, I have a website called iconist.ltd,

00:49:21.506 --> 00:49:26.706
so I-C-O-N-I-S-T dot L-T-D, and you can message me there.

00:49:27.486 --> 00:49:34.146
Most people tend to message me on Instagram, and I respond to every message,

00:49:34.326 --> 00:49:39.306
and that's jamie, J-A-M-I-E underscore mustard, M-U-S-T-A-R-D.

00:49:41.186 --> 00:49:44.026
At jamie underscore mustard, jamie underscore mustard.

00:49:44.546 --> 00:49:50.826
I'm on X as the real Jamie mustard. I'm less X acted these days than the night probably should be.

00:49:51.826 --> 00:49:54.586
So that's how you, what I'm working in that. So that's how you can reach me.

00:49:54.706 --> 00:49:58.606
And I love to hear from people that curiosity is,

00:49:59.513 --> 00:50:03.013
that helped me overcome my circumstances. It hasn't left me.

00:50:04.213 --> 00:50:09.133
And I've written a lot of different areas. My last book that came out almost

00:50:09.133 --> 00:50:12.733
two years ago, April, is on the biology of trauma.

00:50:12.893 --> 00:50:18.433
I wrote a book about how trauma is a biological injury, not a mental disorder

00:50:18.433 --> 00:50:19.673
with a prominent scientist.

00:50:19.993 --> 00:50:25.213
So this prominent scientist had this new science. They can now reset the fight

00:50:25.213 --> 00:50:28.493
or flight system in the body. And only the military was using it.

00:50:29.233 --> 00:50:33.653
And I, and a couple other cohorts, maybe sexual assault victims were finding

00:50:33.653 --> 00:50:35.493
it and first responders.

00:50:35.653 --> 00:50:39.193
And I thought everyone in the world, this needs to be in the living room.

00:50:39.433 --> 00:50:44.553
So I wrote that book with that scientist so that people would understand when

00:50:44.553 --> 00:50:48.253
they're experiencing the effects of trauma, reactivity, hypervigilance,

00:50:48.313 --> 00:50:51.333
anxiety, suicidal ideation,

00:50:52.053 --> 00:50:56.173
violence, aggression, you know, all these things that there's actually a biological

00:50:56.173 --> 00:50:57.433
injury that's causing that.

00:50:57.493 --> 00:51:00.973
We can now see it on a brain scan and we can actually now reset it.

00:51:01.253 --> 00:51:04.333
So that book I'm incredibly proud of because it's taking that.

00:51:04.813 --> 00:51:09.133
The military has been using this thing for two decades. Obama endorsed it back in 2008.

00:51:09.393 --> 00:51:12.993
But I wanted to bring that when I was working with Fort Bragg,

00:51:13.073 --> 00:51:16.473
actually for the iconist, teaching them about special forces,

00:51:16.633 --> 00:51:17.613
about art and communication.

00:51:18.453 --> 00:51:21.453
I was learning about post-traumatic stress while I was there.

00:51:22.493 --> 00:51:26.373
And when I saw the symptoms of what they call operator syndrome,

00:51:26.573 --> 00:51:32.333
which is post-traumatic stress, I didn't see soldiers. I saw the neighborhoods where I grew up.

00:51:32.373 --> 00:51:39.353
So I became obsessed with, could the stresses of poverty cause the same biological

00:51:39.353 --> 00:51:41.453
injury as someone that went to war?

00:51:42.436 --> 00:51:46.636
The same symptoms? And the answer is yes, it's a biological mechanism and the

00:51:46.636 --> 00:51:47.436
symptoms are identical.

00:51:47.716 --> 00:51:52.356
But, you know, I've been working on ideas for my life and kind of doing art in the background.

00:51:52.616 --> 00:51:56.796
My dream has always been to kind of move my art to the foreground.

00:51:57.756 --> 00:52:00.356
Not that I would stop writing about ideas, but like, you know,

00:52:00.456 --> 00:52:05.856
I'm more interested and obsessed with fine art than I probably am anything else in the world.

00:52:06.316 --> 00:52:11.576
And so this year is a big year for me because I have a book coming out at the

00:52:11.576 --> 00:52:20.256
end of March about my life, which is my family, what they accomplished from 1865 to 1940,

00:52:20.636 --> 00:52:23.236
75 years after slavery is pretty astonishing.

00:52:23.476 --> 00:52:27.436
And this is going to sound strange, but I was born a slave.

00:52:27.596 --> 00:52:32.436
How did that happen? I've been living in shame and hiding from that truth most of my life.

00:52:32.716 --> 00:52:44.396
And I've written a book that is the most, it's a painting of how that happened and how I overcame it.

00:52:44.496 --> 00:52:46.776
I'm still overcoming it called Child X.

00:52:47.796 --> 00:52:56.736
So that is a true expression. It's my life, but it is truly a work of art.

00:52:56.876 --> 00:52:58.556
It is a written painting.

00:52:59.916 --> 00:53:03.216
So I feel like that is me really coming out as an artist.

00:53:03.516 --> 00:53:09.256
And then a couple months later, I have a graphic novel coming out that I art

00:53:09.256 --> 00:53:15.316
directed and wrote called Hybrid, which is a kind of beautiful,

00:53:15.776 --> 00:53:22.296
fine art, fictional account of my life done through fiction.

00:53:22.296 --> 00:53:27.236
But like you know altering it but it's about artists with

00:53:27.236 --> 00:53:31.616
super natural abilities growing

00:53:31.616 --> 00:53:34.676
up in an alternate sci-fi future adjacent

00:53:34.676 --> 00:53:40.316
version of los angeles and i'm really proud of that like it basically when i

00:53:40.316 --> 00:53:47.476
it's it's an a really it's a story told in 60 double page paintings and so both

00:53:47.476 --> 00:53:51.016
those things are coming out next year so this is really my really people understand

00:53:51.016 --> 00:53:52.436
this This is the first time I really,

00:53:52.556 --> 00:53:56.316
I've been doing art for a long time, but this is really the first year that

00:53:56.316 --> 00:54:01.576
I'll be bringing myself in terms of my passion for our things that are artistic

00:54:01.576 --> 00:54:04.816
and, and bringing that to the forefront of what I do.

00:54:05.316 --> 00:54:10.096
Well, I hope those, those, those two projects are as successful as the iconist.

00:54:10.096 --> 00:54:17.396
And I just want to thank you for allowing me this opportunity to talk to you.

00:54:18.643 --> 00:54:23.463
And, you know, one of the cool things about doing this podcast is just meeting

00:54:23.463 --> 00:54:26.963
interesting people and,

00:54:27.323 --> 00:54:32.143
you know, some people are famous, most of them are not,

00:54:32.423 --> 00:54:42.023
but it's a great way to get people to appreciate other folks that are out here

00:54:42.023 --> 00:54:43.483
doing tremendous things.

00:54:44.443 --> 00:54:50.463
And the fact that you agreed to come on, I'm really, really honored by that. And I thank you for that.

00:54:51.723 --> 00:54:56.943
And you have an open invitation to come back whenever. So hopefully when your

00:54:56.943 --> 00:54:59.643
next project drops, we'll revisit.

00:55:00.083 --> 00:55:06.823
When we get off today, go Google Child X, and then the Simon & Schuster site

00:55:06.823 --> 00:55:10.023
will come up and read the book description.

00:55:10.523 --> 00:55:15.423
Okay. But I want to say, Eric, you know, that I'm really honored when I got your invitation.

00:55:15.623 --> 00:55:20.383
I went and looked you up and I was like, this guy is a soulful dude.

00:55:20.523 --> 00:55:25.303
And he's, I could tell instantly that you're kind of driven to help and empower people.

00:55:25.683 --> 00:55:31.023
And so I'm honored that you would see my work and see something in it and have

00:55:31.023 --> 00:55:33.023
me on. I really appreciate it.

00:55:33.603 --> 00:55:38.523
Well, thank you so much, man. All right, guys. And we'll catch y'all on the other side.

00:55:39.600 --> 00:55:58.320
Music.

00:55:58.163 --> 00:56:04.523
All right. And we are back. So now it is time for my next guest, Dawn Troop.

00:56:05.303 --> 00:56:10.223
Dawn Troop is a thoughtful and curious pathfinder with a passion for understanding

00:56:10.223 --> 00:56:12.843
society and the forces that shape it.

00:56:13.063 --> 00:56:17.483
Her work spans housing, financial education and community development,

00:56:17.763 --> 00:56:23.623
not just as areas of expertise, but as essential avenues for improving lives

00:56:23.623 --> 00:56:25.103
and creating opportunities.

00:56:25.103 --> 00:56:28.603
With a career that includes roles in the federal government,

00:56:28.943 --> 00:56:34.063
nonprofits, higher education, and the private sector, Dawn has led initiatives

00:56:34.063 --> 00:56:35.603
that deliver real impact.

00:56:36.443 --> 00:56:39.683
She has provided strategic consulting for political campaigns,

00:56:40.383 --> 00:56:46.203
managed statewide financial literacy programs, and advised small businesses on growth strategies.

00:56:46.203 --> 00:56:51.663
Her federal policy expertise is grounded in understanding real-world challenges,

00:56:52.003 --> 00:56:58.063
enabling her to craft actionable solutions that reflect communities' needs.

00:56:58.423 --> 00:57:03.503
Currently, the Advocacy Director for the People and Places Collaborative at

00:57:03.503 --> 00:57:09.123
the Community Opportunity Alliance, Dawn works alongside community organizations

00:57:09.123 --> 00:57:12.603
to drive progress, create opportunities for growth.

00:57:12.603 --> 00:57:18.143
Her drive comes from the desire to spark meaningful conversations and inspire

00:57:18.143 --> 00:57:20.723
solutions that make a lasting difference.

00:57:21.143 --> 00:57:25.763
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:57:25.763 --> 00:57:29.463
on this podcast, Dawn Troop.

00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:41.680
Music.

00:57:41.816 --> 00:57:46.636
John Shroop. How are you doing, sister? You doing good? I'm doing okay today,

00:57:46.856 --> 00:57:50.816
you know, just happy and glad here to be with you and your audience and excited

00:57:50.816 --> 00:57:53.216
to kind of be a part of your journey here.

00:57:53.336 --> 00:57:56.896
So thank you for including me. Well, I am honored to have you on.

00:57:57.596 --> 00:58:03.536
And just so you know, what I tend to do is like, you know, like every other

00:58:03.536 --> 00:58:08.056
show or anybody else, I, you know, if I can get somebody that's quote unquote

00:58:08.056 --> 00:58:10.496
quote on the news all the time, a high profile, that's fine.

00:58:10.836 --> 00:58:13.576
But what I like to do is get people doing the work.

00:58:14.756 --> 00:58:18.876
And even though you've been on a lot of shows and interviews and stuff,

00:58:19.496 --> 00:58:23.776
you know, it's like I like to highlight people that's really in the trenches

00:58:23.776 --> 00:58:28.516
because, you know, being a former legislator, that's who I had to deal with.

00:58:28.856 --> 00:58:34.516
You know, I had to deal with the lobbyist and, you know, every now and then

00:58:34.516 --> 00:58:37.636
I might get a CEO of a company or whatever talk to me. But basically,

00:58:37.816 --> 00:58:42.976
it was those folks in the building trying to get stuff done and community people.

00:58:43.476 --> 00:58:48.136
And and you are one of those folks that is a mover and shaker.

00:58:48.736 --> 00:58:52.076
And I might be messing your game up because I'm giving you a little shine.

00:58:54.056 --> 00:58:58.216
But but I think you deserve it. And I think you're somebody that we can we can

00:58:58.216 --> 00:59:01.016
gain some wisdom from. So I'm glad that you came on.

00:59:02.736 --> 00:59:07.316
So what I normally do is do some icebreakers.

00:59:07.696 --> 00:59:12.856
So the first icebreaker is a quote, and this is the quote I'm going to give you.

00:59:13.096 --> 00:59:17.536
Housing is absolutely essential to human flourishing.

00:59:17.956 --> 00:59:23.576
Without stable shelter, it all falls apart. What does that quote mean to you?

00:59:24.757 --> 00:59:29.437
Right. It's accurate, right? It's so important to have housing because how can

00:59:29.437 --> 00:59:33.237
you go into the world, do what you want to do every day, not knowing where you're going to go home to?

00:59:33.477 --> 00:59:36.577
That's the same place that you can count on and rely on, that you could hang

00:59:36.577 --> 00:59:40.037
your coat up and put your keys down. And it's yours in your private space.

00:59:40.177 --> 00:59:43.237
It allows people to, to your point, flourish, right?

00:59:43.377 --> 00:59:46.857
When you come home, you can either study more, be more with your family,

00:59:47.097 --> 00:59:48.817
depending on how you look at flourish, right?

00:59:48.817 --> 00:59:52.137
Floors could be work floors could be interpersonal relationships

00:59:52.137 --> 00:59:55.157
with like friends and family and time or with yourself to

00:59:55.157 --> 00:59:58.477
you know you know what's it like mental health and well-being so

00:59:58.477 --> 01:00:01.297
i the home is where the heart is but home

01:00:01.297 --> 01:00:04.737
also is where everything has a hard stop

01:00:04.737 --> 01:00:08.217
to be able to go out into the world yeah all right

01:00:08.217 --> 01:00:12.117
so now i'm gonna play this game called 20 questions um

01:00:12.117 --> 01:00:14.757
i got this idea from you ever heard of

01:00:14.757 --> 01:00:18.117
this app called meetup oh yeah yeah

01:00:18.117 --> 01:00:21.857
yeah yeah so one of the groups i was in had this

01:00:21.857 --> 01:00:28.517
questionnaire to kind of break the ice about political discussions so and i

01:00:28.517 --> 01:00:32.777
said this would be this is pretty good so let me try it on the show and see

01:00:32.777 --> 01:00:38.817
how it works so what i need you to do is give me a number between one and 20.

01:00:39.617 --> 01:00:42.857
Seven. Okay, seven. All right.

01:00:43.817 --> 01:00:49.937
All right. What do you consider the best way to stay informed about politics,

01:00:50.217 --> 01:00:54.557
current events, health, etc.? Are there all political ones?

01:00:54.637 --> 01:00:58.477
Because I was like, oh, that's kind of what I do every day based on what it works.

01:00:59.277 --> 01:01:00.717
But I think like.

01:01:02.116 --> 01:01:06.096
They, there's two ways, right? And I learned this a couple years ago when I

01:01:06.096 --> 01:01:07.456
was doing campaign work.

01:01:07.876 --> 01:01:12.676
For me, I like living in like mostly urban areas for the last,

01:01:12.796 --> 01:01:14.856
I don't know, almost 25 years or so.

01:01:15.596 --> 01:01:19.436
I do spend a lot of time watching the news or reading, you know,

01:01:19.556 --> 01:01:21.276
The Economist or The Atlantic.

01:01:21.496 --> 01:01:24.496
I kind of go through and through different news channels.

01:01:24.536 --> 01:01:28.896
I'll go from CNN, the News Nation. I scroll through them all just because I

01:01:28.896 --> 01:01:33.176
have to like track legislation, see what members of Congress are doing and any

01:01:33.176 --> 01:01:36.576
administrative or companies kind of things that are popping up and trends.

01:01:36.796 --> 01:01:40.756
But when I realized when you move into rural areas where my parents actually

01:01:40.756 --> 01:01:44.216
ended up moving to a long time ago, but in general, even recently,

01:01:44.396 --> 01:01:48.696
a lot of people get the news from their local church and like the epicenter

01:01:48.696 --> 01:01:51.056
of where people convene. And it might come on Sunday.

01:01:51.176 --> 01:01:56.256
And then that's where like news happens or things that you need to kind of watch out for.

01:01:56.476 --> 01:02:00.216
So I think it really back to like when you talk about home, home is also where

01:02:00.216 --> 01:02:04.796
it's located and how you receive information, get information and like where

01:02:04.796 --> 01:02:08.036
you use it is based on your environment as well. Yeah.

01:02:08.876 --> 01:02:12.036
And the black church was so vital.

01:02:12.456 --> 01:02:18.336
I used to one of the things when I was in the legislature, I used to remind

01:02:18.336 --> 01:02:21.976
some of the colleagues because, you know, we have in Mississippi,

01:02:21.976 --> 01:02:26.776
we had like porters that, you know, took care of certain things, janitorial,

01:02:27.316 --> 01:02:30.216
maybe run us some errands, whatever the case may be.

01:02:30.216 --> 01:02:36.496
And I noticed some of the members were not being very respectful to them,

01:02:36.956 --> 01:02:38.496
especially some of the black ones.

01:02:38.616 --> 01:02:44.056
And so I reminded them, I said, there was a period in time within my lifetime

01:02:44.056 --> 01:02:46.696
that these were the only black people in the building.

01:02:47.883 --> 01:02:51.763
And what the church would do, especially in Mississippi,

01:02:51.963 --> 01:02:55.803
what the church would do is like guys that had jobs like that where they were

01:02:55.803 --> 01:03:03.783
on the inside, they would make them like deacons of the church so they could get their news,

01:03:04.143 --> 01:03:07.883
find out what was going on in the Capitol. They give them a spot during the service.

01:03:08.263 --> 01:03:13.643
So it was that's why, you know, when you said that about getting news from the

01:03:13.643 --> 01:03:18.103
local in the rural communities, that reminded me of that story,

01:03:18.123 --> 01:03:24.783
because I think it's important that we share information and try to share good

01:03:24.783 --> 01:03:28.503
information as possible. That's kind of hard in this day and age.

01:03:28.663 --> 01:03:34.563
But yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the church because it's still a vital part

01:03:34.563 --> 01:03:38.143
of the fabric of a community, especially in the black community.

01:03:39.483 --> 01:03:42.443
Define affordable housing. I'll see.

01:03:42.703 --> 01:03:45.623
So affordable housing, and there's twofold.

01:03:45.863 --> 01:03:50.523
I was talking about this with a colleague, and when thinking about the answer

01:03:50.523 --> 01:03:53.863
to that question for what I do every day, it would be like, it's making sure

01:03:53.863 --> 01:03:55.903
you don't spend 30% of your income, right?

01:03:56.163 --> 01:03:59.743
Like that, by the government definition of affordable housing.

01:03:59.903 --> 01:04:03.323
But really affordable housing is just a place you're able to call home where

01:04:03.323 --> 01:04:06.923
you have your money to spend on your heat and water and electric,

01:04:06.923 --> 01:04:10.763
like electric, provide for your family and put food on the table.

01:04:10.943 --> 01:04:14.823
So I think affordable housing has really two definitions. If you want to look

01:04:14.823 --> 01:04:21.503
at it, like kind of like in a very kind of everyday news aspect or what it really

01:04:21.503 --> 01:04:24.103
means to families and individuals.

01:04:24.563 --> 01:04:27.943
Because one of the things when we were discussing you coming on,

01:04:28.263 --> 01:04:34.783
you wanted to stress something about accessible housing as opposed to affordable housing.

01:04:35.043 --> 01:04:42.023
So what, I guess, in your work, accessibility is more important than affordability?

01:04:43.248 --> 01:04:46.368
Think to have accessibility because it's twofold, right?

01:04:46.568 --> 01:04:50.208
You could have money, but you have no housing in your area to get to,

01:04:50.388 --> 01:04:52.268
right? And where is it accessible to get it?

01:04:52.568 --> 01:04:56.848
So that's why, I mean, when you have the definition of you can have money,

01:04:56.948 --> 01:05:00.648
but for a lot of people, it's like, I have a place, I want to stay in my place,

01:05:00.668 --> 01:05:02.528
but there's no place for me to live here anymore.

01:05:02.928 --> 01:05:06.608
And I think accessible housing is important, being able to have it in,

01:05:07.188 --> 01:05:10.148
because if you look, this is like personally speaking, when you look at a lot

01:05:10.148 --> 01:05:15.108
of like towns and urban areas and places, you have suburbs and you don't have

01:05:15.108 --> 01:05:18.128
many multifamily housing there, like apartments and things, right?

01:05:18.328 --> 01:05:22.768
And this is still more suburban urban based because you could go and there's

01:05:22.768 --> 01:05:26.528
rental homes, like you can actually rent a house in other communities that don't

01:05:26.528 --> 01:05:29.408
have like six story buildings or four story buildings.

01:05:29.568 --> 01:05:32.548
But that's the thing. It's just being able to have it be accessible.

01:05:32.928 --> 01:05:39.788
Like you shouldn't have to move, you know, 25 miles or more to find a home because

01:05:39.788 --> 01:05:42.528
it's not in the place near where you work, right?

01:05:42.668 --> 01:05:45.668
And then you have transportation issues and it just changes everything.

01:05:45.848 --> 01:05:49.228
So accessible housing is important. And a lot of the times people,

01:05:49.508 --> 01:05:53.888
that's the hardest thing to get, right? Is to be able to be close to where you work.

01:05:54.448 --> 01:06:00.148
Oh yeah. I mean, yeah, so. Yeah, see, I'm based out here in Atlanta.

01:06:01.568 --> 01:06:08.368
And the short time I've been here, the thing, if I see a green space,

01:06:08.368 --> 01:06:12.808
I said, oh, boy, they're about to build some apartments of condos in that space

01:06:12.808 --> 01:06:15.668
in no time. And that's basically been a formula.

01:06:16.688 --> 01:06:23.868
But I've seen I've seen scenarios where, you know, it's like in the like in

01:06:23.868 --> 01:06:25.428
the inner city part of Atlanta.

01:06:25.948 --> 01:06:29.628
You know, people say, well, you know, that's tough to raise a family and all that.

01:06:29.788 --> 01:06:35.128
But I have literally seen families move into like upper scale,

01:06:35.128 --> 01:06:40.188
like condos and all that stuff. and they have little kids and it didn't seem

01:06:40.188 --> 01:06:41.888
like it was a good fit there.

01:06:42.148 --> 01:06:46.988
So that, that to me, I think that plays a part in accessibility too, doesn't it?

01:06:47.148 --> 01:06:50.768
Like, you know, what, what, what you're, cause like you said,

01:06:51.028 --> 01:06:57.388
home is where you feel comfortable and where you can, like we said, flourish, but you know.

01:06:58.168 --> 01:07:03.928
Not every scenario, not every Jefferson's that's moving on up scenario is best

01:07:03.928 --> 01:07:06.288
for people. Would you agree with that?

01:07:06.968 --> 01:07:10.968
No, no. I mean, yeah, I think that's twofold because when, so that comes down

01:07:10.968 --> 01:07:13.368
to when apartments are built, right?

01:07:13.508 --> 01:07:17.368
Before that almost is like planner, the developer.

01:07:17.928 --> 01:07:23.888
So when towns build homes and apartments or luxury condos, there's a lot of first homes,

01:07:24.208 --> 01:07:27.228
like for starter homes that aren't on the market anymore, because necessarily

01:07:27.228 --> 01:07:32.648
you can, you do private partner business and you'll have market rate and affordable

01:07:32.648 --> 01:07:35.248
housing, which is kind of like either condos or, well,

01:07:35.875 --> 01:07:38.195
really condos necessary or just apartments, luxury apartments.

01:07:38.675 --> 01:07:43.215
And before they build, they're supposed to figure out like what the area really needs.

01:07:43.295 --> 01:07:46.095
Is it a lot of one bedrooms or two bedrooms or studios?

01:07:46.375 --> 01:07:51.615
So it's more or less being able to figure out if that meets what the family

01:07:51.615 --> 01:07:53.995
is looking for, but that that's all they can afford.

01:07:54.095 --> 01:07:59.315
Then they can't afford that first starter home without moving 50 miles outside of Atlanta.

01:07:59.575 --> 01:08:05.135
That's a part of that accessibility problem. So it really is based on the region

01:08:05.135 --> 01:08:08.575
and the city and what the, like I wouldn't say demographics,

01:08:08.675 --> 01:08:11.895
it's not about the people. It's just like, where are the family sizes?

01:08:12.235 --> 01:08:13.895
Is there larger families or a

01:08:13.895 --> 01:08:18.675
lot of single people? And that plays into development of homes too. Yeah.

01:08:19.595 --> 01:08:25.055
Why with your various political experience, have you devoted a lot of your professional

01:08:25.055 --> 01:08:27.175
time to the housing issue?

01:08:27.855 --> 01:08:34.675
I mean, for me, when I think about my own experience with my family, right?

01:08:34.835 --> 01:08:39.475
My grandmother was one of seven sisters and she was the youngest of the seven.

01:08:39.635 --> 01:08:42.635
They were born in South Carolina and then they moved to New York.

01:08:42.815 --> 01:08:46.015
And the thing is, all of them had businesses.

01:08:46.395 --> 01:08:50.895
They owned liquor stores. They owned shopping centers. My grandmother owned an apartment building.

01:08:51.215 --> 01:08:54.355
The other ones owned bars as well. And they worked together. It was a family unit.

01:08:54.535 --> 01:08:58.255
Everyone shipped in together. Whatever money they had, it went to the sisters

01:08:58.255 --> 01:09:01.335
and they just kept doubling down on things, right?

01:09:01.855 --> 01:09:07.395
And that, to me, is so important because, like, grandmother bought my mom her

01:09:07.395 --> 01:09:09.215
first home and then her second home.

01:09:09.355 --> 01:09:15.375
You know what I mean? Like, it's so meaningful to see what that type of leading

01:09:15.375 --> 01:09:19.295
on your family support, and especially within, like.

01:09:19.975 --> 01:09:24.375
Groups of, like, ethnicity groups, like, people really rely on their family to help them.

01:09:24.375 --> 01:09:29.055
And that's how a lot of wealth, it's not just one person, it's a collective

01:09:29.055 --> 01:09:30.815
unit that are able to work together.

01:09:31.035 --> 01:09:36.315
And my grandmother helped her siblings and their children and my mom's first cousins.

01:09:36.635 --> 01:09:42.695
And so it just systemically is really important to me knowing that my mom,

01:09:42.855 --> 01:09:47.835
my parents, they decided to move out of New York City to upstate New York.

01:09:47.835 --> 01:09:52.235
So I didn't make sure I go to a better school district because living in Harlem

01:09:52.235 --> 01:09:58.675
on 132nd Street, they were like, well, this is the 80s. What can we do here?

01:09:58.815 --> 01:10:02.175
Should we stay? Should we move? They had the opportunity to move, so they did it.

01:10:02.355 --> 01:10:06.415
But not everyone has that. So I've always kind of put back into wanting to ensure

01:10:06.415 --> 01:10:11.495
that I was able to help others that just didn't have the opportunity that I got. Yeah.

01:10:11.835 --> 01:10:19.975
And your family sounds like a success story in that there is some generational wealth put in.

01:10:20.075 --> 01:10:24.635
And that's that that's one of the key things I've been trying to stress on my

01:10:24.635 --> 01:10:28.615
podcast and in my politics that we need to.

01:10:28.995 --> 01:10:35.235
You know, there's still some issues we have to fight for as far as on the civil rights front. But.

01:10:36.965 --> 01:10:42.425
You know, the key to building wealth in this nation is, to me,

01:10:42.685 --> 01:10:44.885
is owning property, housing, whatever.

01:10:45.745 --> 01:10:48.425
And it sounds like you had a good foundation.

01:10:49.925 --> 01:10:55.245
And because of that, you've dedicated your political life to helping people

01:10:55.245 --> 01:10:56.525
have that same experience.

01:10:57.465 --> 01:11:01.065
Yeah, ever since I graduated college, I went from working in higher ed thinking

01:11:01.065 --> 01:11:03.865
I was helping the people I wanted to help. And not necessarily because,

01:11:03.905 --> 01:11:07.385
you know, fundraising, there are the families that are donating over millions of dollars.

01:11:07.565 --> 01:11:11.065
I'm kind of like, that's not what I was trying to help, but great that everyone's

01:11:11.065 --> 01:11:11.925
getting education here.

01:11:12.145 --> 01:11:16.825
And so I kind of worked my way into figuring out if I want to help children,

01:11:17.025 --> 01:11:18.765
the best way to do it is build better communities.

01:11:18.805 --> 01:11:23.385
And what are those like prongs and items that are needed to build a better community?

01:11:23.625 --> 01:11:26.965
And one of it, you know, like, yes, I saw the education piece,

01:11:27.165 --> 01:11:30.805
the financial literacy. And most importantly, even without all of those,

01:11:31.385 --> 01:11:36.185
housing is it's between housing and financial literacy with one or the other.

01:11:36.365 --> 01:11:39.885
You almost need both tied together. Right.

01:11:40.365 --> 01:11:45.105
So I'm going to get to financial literacy in a minute, but I wanted to talk

01:11:45.105 --> 01:11:47.805
to you going back even further.

01:11:48.085 --> 01:11:54.945
What got you involved in politics? Why did you feel that your skill set fit

01:11:54.945 --> 01:11:59.945
in the political world, especially, you know, doing lobbying work and all that?

01:12:00.505 --> 01:12:06.365
I'm not a lobbyist because I'm a. All right. Yes, ma'am. All right. I'll take that back.

01:12:09.425 --> 01:12:15.565
So but with. It's just interesting, I think for me, I kind of I will honestly

01:12:15.565 --> 01:12:21.405
say I stumbled into it in some different ways. I've always been curious.

01:12:21.545 --> 01:12:25.485
I've always wanted to learn about different things. I was a kid that never didn't

01:12:25.485 --> 01:12:26.585
want to miss a day of school, right?

01:12:26.665 --> 01:12:30.245
I was just like, I don't know why. I was just really fixated on going there.

01:12:31.745 --> 01:12:32.505
But I...

01:12:33.913 --> 01:12:38.253
I did organizing for action. It was like an Obama kind of grassroots campaign

01:12:38.253 --> 01:12:40.713
to help with the 2013, like different elections.

01:12:41.173 --> 01:12:46.473
And I actually went to the celebration for Martin Luther King's Day March on

01:12:46.473 --> 01:12:47.593
Washington that they had.

01:12:48.053 --> 01:12:53.493
And my grandparents had went, my dad's mom and father and my dad's mother.

01:12:53.793 --> 01:12:58.753
She's an Australian citizen and British. They're like going heritage wise.

01:12:58.913 --> 01:13:01.033
Her parents were in the military and moved to Australia.

01:13:01.253 --> 01:13:03.733
My dad was black and he was from Georgia.

01:13:04.333 --> 01:13:08.293
And they went together. So I had went out of being like, oh, wow, like this is great.

01:13:08.453 --> 01:13:11.953
I get to like celebrate something that they did together that I can see on my own terms.

01:13:12.073 --> 01:13:17.593
And I had volunteered and then I was in that kind of network of news,

01:13:17.733 --> 01:13:18.713
you know, like email chains.

01:13:19.253 --> 01:13:24.773
And they had a, what do you call it, like a job fair or different things within

01:13:24.773 --> 01:13:27.973
either running for office, you know, running, working for campaigns or what

01:13:27.973 --> 01:13:30.513
have you. And there was one there for people at the White House.

01:13:30.893 --> 01:13:35.293
And I was just like, oh, the government must have the answer for me to figure out how I can help kids.

01:13:35.413 --> 01:13:38.773
Like, I don't know what it is, but I'm just gonna just throw myself into this

01:13:38.773 --> 01:13:42.313
whole environment, being curious and wanting to know.

01:13:43.173 --> 01:13:46.353
And that's kind of what happened. I went down on a Saturday.

01:13:46.553 --> 01:13:48.973
I made a last minute decision. I was like, I guess I'm gonna go.

01:13:49.213 --> 01:13:53.093
And then I got there with an hour left, met a representative from the White

01:13:53.093 --> 01:13:55.013
House, kind of was like, I just came here to see you.

01:13:55.193 --> 01:13:58.773
Like all these other things, like this is what I wanna work on.

01:13:58.873 --> 01:14:03.653
And how can I do this? And they were like, go online, say that you met me.

01:14:03.813 --> 01:14:08.713
And we'll like work to get you into things that make sense that you can be a part of. Yeah.

01:14:09.393 --> 01:14:13.573
Yeah. Never say you always start off with no. All you can get is a yes.

01:14:13.733 --> 01:14:17.193
So that I would tell, that's my, what I usually tell people that I mentor or

01:14:17.193 --> 01:14:19.433
any like students that I've worked with.

01:14:19.513 --> 01:14:24.173
All you have is your name and you, you just, you're always, always going to start with no.

01:14:24.313 --> 01:14:27.413
So don't be afraid to ask to get a yes, because that's going to just change

01:14:27.413 --> 01:14:31.513
everything and keep asking, right. Until you find someone who tells you yes.

01:14:32.073 --> 01:14:34.633
Yeah. That's good advice. because a lot of people...

01:14:35.894 --> 01:14:39.014
Let that fear of no hold them back.

01:14:39.114 --> 01:14:42.534
And if you go in with understanding that you don't have the job,

01:14:42.534 --> 01:14:44.794
so it can't get any worse than that.

01:14:44.914 --> 01:14:49.734
Just go ahead and, and, and, and, and push for the yes, that,

01:14:49.854 --> 01:14:55.694
that that's encouraging. I mean, that's kind of the same way it is running for office too.

01:14:55.934 --> 01:15:01.174
You just, you know, you know, that all you need is half the people to show up

01:15:01.174 --> 01:15:08.454
to vote for you, you know? And so you don't take it personal if 49% of the people

01:15:08.454 --> 01:15:10.254
don't like you or don't vote for you.

01:15:10.534 --> 01:15:16.734
You know, you just you go in and you try to convince as many people that you deserve this position.

01:15:17.374 --> 01:15:25.174
And I think you deal with you've dealt with young people a lot.

01:15:25.574 --> 01:15:29.974
I'm going to say a pet peeve to you. And I know this might be a little off topic,

01:15:30.134 --> 01:15:34.234
but one of the things that discourages me about our kids,

01:15:34.694 --> 01:15:39.234
black kids, is that, you know, I see them in a relaxed setting and,

01:15:39.334 --> 01:15:43.794
you know, they're loud and they're boisterous and they're active and all this stuff.

01:15:43.794 --> 01:15:47.314
And then when they get in a situation where adults enter the room and say,

01:15:47.454 --> 01:15:51.214
well, hey, look, I need you to, you know, tell me a little bit about yourself

01:15:51.214 --> 01:15:53.794
and, you know, and then they get real timid.

01:15:54.434 --> 01:15:57.874
You know, it's almost like you have to pull stuff out of them.

01:15:58.594 --> 01:16:02.654
As somebody that's dealt with young people, how do you what is your best strategy

01:16:02.654 --> 01:16:11.954
as far as getting young people to to to be relaxed and to be confident about themselves? Yeah.

01:16:12.704 --> 01:16:17.404
I mean, I always say anything that's kind of tied to children starts with adults, right?

01:16:17.604 --> 01:16:22.104
So in one, it's were they ever taught to be open with adults and have conversations

01:16:22.104 --> 01:16:25.204
and to have that confidence? And that's really where it starts.

01:16:25.404 --> 01:16:28.664
It starts with adults teaching kids things of those kind of nature.

01:16:28.944 --> 01:16:30.424
Like, and sometimes kids are just thinking.

01:16:30.784 --> 01:16:34.244
Like, you could be in a room talking to them. They're not necessarily not interested.

01:16:34.664 --> 01:16:37.604
They could just be listening. Or even if they are doing something else,

01:16:37.724 --> 01:16:42.804
they don't tune everything out. And I do think that it's not the fact that it's,

01:16:42.964 --> 01:16:46.044
it doesn't fall back on them. They have to be taught that.

01:16:46.464 --> 01:16:51.204
So most of the time, anytime I think of things that relate back to children,

01:16:51.204 --> 01:16:53.364
and if it's like, why did they do that?

01:16:53.484 --> 01:16:55.684
Or why isn't something, doesn't make sense?

01:16:55.824 --> 01:16:58.924
It's like, what didn't the adult do to make that accessible to them?

01:16:59.184 --> 01:17:00.944
To have them realize that this

01:17:00.944 --> 01:17:05.344
is what they should be doing in this environment or in this interaction.

01:17:05.624 --> 01:17:09.084
It's all learned. And I didn't even say today, like when you think about,

01:17:09.084 --> 01:17:13.324
you know, younger, like people just starting in their career that have been

01:17:13.324 --> 01:17:16.624
working from home that actually probably are missing out on things in the office,

01:17:16.624 --> 01:17:18.344
even though a lot of people love working from home.

01:17:18.424 --> 01:17:21.944
But it is that it happens even now when I work with like colleagues who are younger.

01:17:22.244 --> 01:17:24.984
It's there's certain things that nuances that they just don't know.

01:17:25.104 --> 01:17:27.884
And I'm like, oh, yeah, I forgot. You wouldn't know this because you haven't

01:17:27.884 --> 01:17:29.444
worked in an office. Yeah.

01:17:30.324 --> 01:17:35.344
OK, so that's good. Good information for me to kind of pull stuff out because,

01:17:35.364 --> 01:17:38.304
you know, I haven't done a lot of speaking lately.

01:17:38.544 --> 01:17:43.824
But, you know, when I when I used to go and talk and try to get the young folks to interact.

01:17:45.244 --> 01:17:48.284
But, yeah, that gives me some ideas on how to go with it. OK.

01:17:48.684 --> 01:17:49.904
All right. Let's get back on track.

01:17:50.624 --> 01:17:53.924
Explain the importance of financial literacy. Yeah.

01:17:54.781 --> 01:17:58.961
I mean, financial literacy is in so many, it's such a huge facet.

01:17:59.481 --> 01:18:04.601
Financial literacy is one with what you know about being able to keep like stable

01:18:04.601 --> 01:18:07.341
credit and savings and things, but it's also emotional.

01:18:07.681 --> 01:18:11.121
Like financial literacy doesn't just start on what I know today,

01:18:11.301 --> 01:18:14.321
how to open a bank account or like most things are online anyway,

01:18:14.481 --> 01:18:18.261
like brick and mortar banks are sometimes even hard to find in certain neighborhoods, right?

01:18:18.921 --> 01:18:22.081
And it's what you've learned from your family that

01:18:22.081 --> 01:18:25.101
teaches you what money really is because it's an emotional sense

01:18:25.101 --> 01:18:27.841
some people are very comfortable with it some people are afraid of it

01:18:27.841 --> 01:18:30.781
some people find it to be scarce so they like hoard on

01:18:30.781 --> 01:18:33.501
to it right where it's like oh you know it'll come and go and it's

01:18:33.501 --> 01:18:36.541
okay to be have things in debt so financial literacy is

01:18:36.541 --> 01:18:39.661
it it it's an encompassing of like in

01:18:39.661 --> 01:18:42.521
a holistic person and how they view their

01:18:42.521 --> 01:18:45.781
way to spend it how they earn it the way they get it and

01:18:45.781 --> 01:18:48.681
then what do you look at this dollar what does that dollar mean to

01:18:48.681 --> 01:18:51.621
you right and because you're like i went online and

01:18:51.621 --> 01:18:54.461
bought like you know a new app or another song or

01:18:54.461 --> 01:18:57.201
what have you know whatever it is and it's kind of like well

01:18:57.201 --> 01:19:00.361
i wonder if i what what else could i be doing this or

01:19:00.361 --> 01:19:03.941
putting 20 away a month for ira it there's

01:19:03.941 --> 01:19:09.801
just so much to encompass it but it is very important to every day where sometimes

01:19:09.801 --> 01:19:13.781
you know like a long time ago everyone's you need to learn how to read and be

01:19:13.781 --> 01:19:18.781
literate you also need to be have financial literacy it is far to be able to

01:19:18.781 --> 01:19:23.141
move forward in this current atmosphere that we live in.

01:19:23.381 --> 01:19:27.021
Financial literacy is very necessary. Yeah.

01:19:27.421 --> 01:19:38.041
And, you know, what I've always observed in America is that whenever we as Black people start.

01:19:39.162 --> 01:19:45.062
Going toward either a particular profession or start advancing in certain ways,

01:19:45.622 --> 01:19:47.822
these creative things come up.

01:19:48.082 --> 01:19:52.002
And one of the examples is this credit score thing.

01:19:52.362 --> 01:19:57.042
Cause you know, all of us at Christmas time have watched the Jimmy Stewart movie.

01:19:57.982 --> 01:20:02.682
It was a wonderful life. And it was like, you got a loan on a handshake back

01:20:02.682 --> 01:20:03.582
then, you know what I'm saying?

01:20:04.342 --> 01:20:09.542
And, and, you know, So now you've got this credit score where you've got to

01:20:09.542 --> 01:20:15.522
have a certain score to not only get a loan for a house or a car,

01:20:15.762 --> 01:20:18.242
but even even to get a job.

01:20:18.382 --> 01:20:21.702
Now, there's some jobs that if you have a certain credit score,

01:20:21.822 --> 01:20:26.782
they'll ask you questions because like in law enforcement, where,

01:20:26.942 --> 01:20:31.642
you know, a lot of my background is, you know, they if you got those credit score,

01:20:31.842 --> 01:20:34.682
they they're scared that you might take a bribe from a drug dealer.

01:20:34.682 --> 01:20:35.582
You know what I'm saying?

01:20:36.122 --> 01:20:44.182
So one of the things when I was in the legislature that I really focused on

01:20:44.182 --> 01:20:47.722
was teaching financial literacy in the schools.

01:20:48.462 --> 01:20:54.962
And I was able to get with the help of the Realtors Association of the state was able to get.

01:20:55.282 --> 01:20:57.582
I wanted it to be required.

01:20:58.382 --> 01:21:03.862
I had envisioned first semester you take financial literacy and then the second

01:21:03.862 --> 01:21:05.982
semester you take entrepreneurship. Right.

01:21:06.422 --> 01:21:10.942
Because I wanted our children to know those kind of skills.

01:21:11.802 --> 01:21:16.362
And so I was able to get the financial literacy component in,

01:21:16.522 --> 01:21:18.342
but it got in as an elective.

01:21:19.222 --> 01:21:22.982
And but the bonus was, was that the school districts didn't have to pay for

01:21:22.982 --> 01:21:28.722
groups like the Realtor Association or CPA Association, whatever they would

01:21:28.722 --> 01:21:30.862
come in and teach the class for free.

01:21:31.822 --> 01:21:34.302
All the school had to say is that they wanted it.

01:21:35.940 --> 01:21:42.900
How early should young people start learning financial literacy?

01:21:43.940 --> 01:21:47.380
Honestly, as soon as they're able to interact with other people,

01:21:47.500 --> 01:21:51.180
because the reason why I say that is not just because you're thinking they're

01:21:51.180 --> 01:21:54.080
going out and like, yeah, I buy your bubble gum here.

01:21:54.440 --> 01:21:58.020
No, it's just being able to understand maybe people have some have more than others.

01:21:58.200 --> 01:22:01.060
And that helps like social economic interactions with people,

01:22:01.180 --> 01:22:04.540
like being able to understand like why, because working in a school,

01:22:04.720 --> 01:22:08.760
you see that a lot. Like some kids are like, oh, yeah, they have this like fancy jacket.

01:22:08.860 --> 01:22:12.840
But I also did was in schools that were in Title I districts.

01:22:13.020 --> 01:22:17.540
But like you're the jacket. I will never forget this. The jacket still had the

01:22:17.540 --> 01:22:19.540
tag on the like the alarm. Right.

01:22:20.080 --> 01:22:23.660
And kids know that they like but they were older, but they weren't being nice

01:22:23.660 --> 01:22:26.160
about it. It's like, well, let's think about why that's a problem.

01:22:26.300 --> 01:22:29.920
Right. So what what does money mean and what does it mean when you have or when

01:22:29.920 --> 01:22:36.220
you have not? I think you, very young, it's describing how, it might not be

01:22:36.220 --> 01:22:37.560
the concept of this is a dollar.

01:22:37.840 --> 01:22:40.500
This is what the dollar means. This is how many pennies are in a dollar.

01:22:40.620 --> 01:22:41.860
This is what you can buy for a dollar.

01:22:42.320 --> 01:22:46.220
I think it's good to start maybe at like three or something.

01:22:46.460 --> 01:22:49.940
Right after you kind of hit that mark, it's one of those things of just explaining

01:22:49.940 --> 01:22:55.020
what, how money affects people's lives.

01:22:55.240 --> 01:22:58.220
Like, and just having an understanding. And then I think once kids probably

01:22:58.220 --> 01:23:01.960
understand the difference between like, maybe I have, I might,

01:23:02.040 --> 01:23:04.660
because I feel like a lot of parents or children may not understand that their

01:23:04.660 --> 01:23:08.380
parents are going out of their way to give them more than they can actually afford.

01:23:08.720 --> 01:23:14.160
Right. And then I know someone that one day, like, it was like, I think during 2008.

01:23:14.780 --> 01:23:20.740
And she was telling me like, oh, one day I had a drum set. Next thing I didn't. Right.

01:23:21.380 --> 01:23:24.680
And it was really, and it still affects this person to this day.

01:23:25.300 --> 01:23:28.420
And the way that they talk about it, right? And I think if it would,

01:23:28.600 --> 01:23:32.080
just if that was something that could have been communicated,

01:23:32.300 --> 01:23:34.460
like, you know, money is something that can come and go.

01:23:34.700 --> 01:23:39.020
It's not always going to be there. And that might help children have a better

01:23:39.020 --> 01:23:43.260
understanding when they have it, when you spend it or what you spend it on or

01:23:43.260 --> 01:23:46.860
how you use it and how you interact with others might be helpful.

01:23:47.380 --> 01:23:54.360
Yeah. So what advice would you give younger African-Americans on preparing to

01:23:54.360 --> 01:23:58.320
be financially stable and build generational wealth?

01:23:59.679 --> 01:24:03.399
Well, to your point, only I think like 26 states have financial educations.

01:24:03.599 --> 01:24:07.239
So it comes back to the adult. Someone has to tell someone this.

01:24:07.419 --> 01:24:11.179
Like normally when I would go and ask kids, do you know what a CPA is,

01:24:11.279 --> 01:24:12.579
like a certified public accountant?

01:24:12.859 --> 01:24:16.599
Out of the class, generally, like maybe five or six kids raise their hand,

01:24:16.719 --> 01:24:21.259
like less than 10%. That's because either their parent was CPA or their uncle

01:24:21.259 --> 01:24:22.839
or their parents used one.

01:24:23.339 --> 01:24:25.979
Other than that, no one even knows what that really is, right?

01:24:26.079 --> 01:24:28.539
Or they have like, oh, you're just sitting behind a desk every day.

01:24:28.539 --> 01:24:35.879
It comes back to just access to knowledge. So for a child to go and find that

01:24:35.879 --> 01:24:38.739
might be kind of hard if there aren't outlets for it.

01:24:38.899 --> 01:24:43.019
I really do think it goes back to adults when you see children.

01:24:43.299 --> 01:24:47.179
If they have the opportunity to share that knowledge, to definitely share it.

01:24:47.179 --> 01:24:50.879
But every state in this country has an accounting association.

01:24:51.479 --> 01:24:55.019
And if you want to get resources, that is a good place to start,

01:24:55.019 --> 01:25:00.579
because they do try really hard to promote financial literacy within those associations,

01:25:00.579 --> 01:25:01.819
because it's important, right?

01:25:01.999 --> 01:25:04.959
Beyond the fact that like accountants will need people to use them.

01:25:05.219 --> 01:25:10.619
But they do go out of their way to like teach basic understanding of like how

01:25:10.619 --> 01:25:15.139
to save, what is a like retirement, how to think about that.

01:25:15.139 --> 01:25:18.679
And it's because it's really nothing you start to think about until you kind of get closer to it.

01:25:19.019 --> 01:25:21.899
Like most people don't understand a buy a house like like what?

01:25:22.179 --> 01:25:25.479
You know, you have to have 20 percent down payment. You need all these things

01:25:25.479 --> 01:25:28.259
and in reading and a lot of research.

01:25:28.519 --> 01:25:33.159
So it is, I think, a lot of, I want to say financial literacy needs a lot of

01:25:33.159 --> 01:25:37.039
earned media, like mouth to mouth, like conversations of just like when you

01:25:37.039 --> 01:25:39.579
have an experience, make sure to share that with someone else.

01:25:39.819 --> 01:25:43.919
Or if there are like April is a financial literacy month, I believe. Right. Right.

01:25:44.393 --> 01:25:47.513
What could be shared around to schools about things.

01:25:47.713 --> 01:25:52.693
Cause I just, it's not going to come up every day unless someone tells the child that.

01:25:53.053 --> 01:25:58.113
Yeah, it definitely has to be deliberate. And that was one of the things because

01:25:58.113 --> 01:26:03.453
I just remember trying to buy the first house and.

01:26:04.953 --> 01:26:08.173
You know, it was just all this paperwork and all this stuff.

01:26:08.273 --> 01:26:13.953
It was like, I just thought, look, I got to find me a bank, qualify for a loan.

01:26:14.833 --> 01:26:17.753
And, you know, give the people the check and keep it going.

01:26:17.913 --> 01:26:20.733
And then they said, well, you know, we got to do this inspection stuff.

01:26:20.733 --> 01:26:23.673
And then there's these closing costs.

01:26:23.833 --> 01:26:29.193
And I was like, what is just the amount of paperwork, the title stuff and all that?

01:26:29.493 --> 01:26:35.353
You know, you got to kind of get people ready for that.

01:26:35.473 --> 01:26:41.073
And then even when I first went to college, it's like you're registering for class.

01:26:41.673 --> 01:26:47.633
And then you know it's like at the end of the registration table there's like sears and,

01:26:48.373 --> 01:26:51.233
zales jeweler and all this stuff and they you know v and

01:26:51.233 --> 01:26:53.953
everybody's trying to give you a credit card you know what i'm saying so you know

01:26:53.953 --> 01:26:58.613
you at it's like oh i'm really grown i can sign for one of these right but i

01:26:58.613 --> 01:27:04.353
didn't have you know and my parents were you know educated working class people

01:27:04.353 --> 01:27:09.633
but they never sat there and took the time you know outside of a checking account

01:27:09.633 --> 01:27:11.533
and a savings account. They taught me that.

01:27:12.153 --> 01:27:16.873
And in school, we had to learn, I mean, we had to literally take a test to graduate

01:27:16.873 --> 01:27:20.793
from high school in Chicago to show that you were functionally literate.

01:27:20.933 --> 01:27:23.273
And part of that was you had to be able to read a bus schedule,

01:27:23.373 --> 01:27:25.533
you had to write a check, all that kind of stuff.

01:27:26.353 --> 01:27:32.953
So, you know, that's, that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about as far as preparing these young folks.

01:27:33.073 --> 01:27:38.413
Cause at the minute that they get out of that bubble in their home, um,

01:27:39.163 --> 01:27:43.283
know, they're going to be exposed to things and not realize it.

01:27:43.403 --> 01:27:49.303
And you're basically saying that some adult, whether it's in the home,

01:27:49.403 --> 01:27:53.623
outside of home, has to be intentional in making sure these young people understand that.

01:27:54.423 --> 01:27:57.663
Yes, because colleges are not prepared. So think of a college, right?

01:27:57.783 --> 01:28:00.603
And I always had this back and forth because I worked at universities.

01:28:00.603 --> 01:28:05.043
And that's kind of why I was like, I got disheartened, even though they're meant to do the right thing.

01:28:06.083 --> 01:28:08.843
One when you go to college you sign up for classes now there are

01:28:08.843 --> 01:28:11.603
some schools being started where they track if you sign up

01:28:11.603 --> 01:28:14.303
for a major they'll show you all the things you

01:28:14.303 --> 01:28:17.163
need to be taking all the course credits and what have you

01:28:17.163 --> 01:28:20.143
to get to that degree i don't know how many schools actually do that but there

01:28:20.143 --> 01:28:24.623
are some but generally speaking once you're there you're on your own like there

01:28:24.623 --> 01:28:27.823
are some kids that know there's a writing lab there are some kids that know

01:28:27.823 --> 01:28:31.343
that there's this you know well maybe i want to get involved in student body

01:28:31.343 --> 01:28:35.963
government or something or there's an extra activity that might help in computer

01:28:35.963 --> 01:28:36.803
science or what have you.

01:28:36.863 --> 01:28:39.323
You have to go find it. It doesn't always come to you.

01:28:39.443 --> 01:28:42.923
What they kind of give you is, hey, here's your dorm. Here's your RA.

01:28:43.543 --> 01:28:46.103
Here's some basic things you need to know. And everything else,

01:28:46.243 --> 01:28:51.203
you have this whole entire campus around you, but you really need to kind of navigate it yourself.

01:28:52.083 --> 01:28:55.923
And that's where I feel like if you don't know, for instance,

01:28:56.083 --> 01:28:59.703
I didn't realize you could study abroad. I know you could go,

01:28:59.843 --> 01:29:02.603
but I didn't really know what that was or how to sign up for it.

01:29:02.643 --> 01:29:05.343
I still went abroad in college, but I just didn't know, why don't I go to the

01:29:05.343 --> 01:29:07.983
office and fill out a paper and form and go away for a semester?

01:29:08.143 --> 01:29:11.683
It just wasn't something that my friends did. And I was like,

01:29:11.743 --> 01:29:15.063
oh, by the time I figured it out, I was like, well, do I really want to go away my senior year?

01:29:16.263 --> 01:29:19.943
So that's my point, because if an adult doesn't tell someone,

01:29:20.083 --> 01:29:22.623
by the time you get to college, you're not necessarily going to find it either.

01:29:22.863 --> 01:29:24.843
And then you're really not going to find it, because a lot of people learn by

01:29:24.843 --> 01:29:27.223
trial and error, usually when it's financial literacy. It's like,

01:29:27.543 --> 01:29:29.743
oops, I did that. And that was wrong. I signed this paper.

01:29:29.963 --> 01:29:33.723
I took out too much. I should have gave that money back. I didn't need all this loan money.

01:29:33.963 --> 01:29:38.023
And I kept it. I just been like, no, no, please take it back because I just rather not have it.

01:29:38.023 --> 01:29:41.243
And then the other thing is, if you want to start with families,

01:29:41.463 --> 01:29:45.883
one thing they can do, which a lot of families across, especially in the higher

01:29:45.883 --> 01:29:50.723
income levels do, they use life insurance to get around estate taxes.

01:29:51.383 --> 01:29:56.603
So it's just like, you have to, again, who would know that unless you know someone

01:29:56.603 --> 01:29:58.063
who's been in that industry, right?

01:29:58.243 --> 01:30:03.323
And that's what people do. And they, when a person passes, they have all this

01:30:03.323 --> 01:30:06.843
money kind of locked up in different types of like vehicles money wise,

01:30:06.863 --> 01:30:12.903
and they get to pass it on to their family without taxes, like a tarot of taxes. So it's. Yeah.

01:30:13.803 --> 01:30:16.043
Yeah. Little tricks and stuff.

01:30:17.123 --> 01:30:22.743
But I think it's important. So look, as much as I would like to continue talking

01:30:22.743 --> 01:30:24.263
with you, I'm going to have to cut this off.

01:30:24.463 --> 01:30:27.523
But how can people reach out to you?

01:30:29.333 --> 01:30:37.353
Either for your advocacy or just to kind of pick your brain a little bit,

01:30:37.473 --> 01:30:40.533
have you speak somewhere or whatever? How do people get in touch with you?

01:30:41.333 --> 01:30:46.273
I mean, obviously, you can find me on LinkedIn, Don Troop, or they're more than

01:30:46.273 --> 01:30:49.013
happy to email me personally if they want to.

01:30:49.233 --> 01:30:52.573
It's just my first name, period, last name at gmail.com.

01:30:53.453 --> 01:30:58.453
And, yeah, and that's, I mean, happy to share that information And because it

01:30:58.453 --> 01:31:01.793
really does come back to that's kind of why my mom was like,

01:31:01.913 --> 01:31:04.393
I did all this for you to do all these different things.

01:31:04.513 --> 01:31:07.033
And I'm like, would people talk about like survivor's guilt?

01:31:07.153 --> 01:31:10.153
I don't have that type of thing, but I understand the concept of it.

01:31:10.233 --> 01:31:11.913
I'm like, how could I be so happy

01:31:11.913 --> 01:31:14.433
doing all these other things if I wasn't bringing other people with me?

01:31:14.793 --> 01:31:17.233
So I think that's the most important thing.

01:31:17.613 --> 01:31:23.133
Well, I'm glad that you you've chosen to be one of the the good people and try

01:31:23.133 --> 01:31:26.133
to lift up other folks in your work.

01:31:26.653 --> 01:31:32.393
I think we'd be a much better place if there were a gazillion people like you,

01:31:32.593 --> 01:31:35.173
as opposed to what we're dealing with.

01:31:35.313 --> 01:31:38.253
But I won't get into that too deep.

01:31:38.893 --> 01:31:41.853
Dawn Troop, it's been an honor to have you on the podcast.

01:31:42.513 --> 01:31:47.493
A general rule I like to express to the guests is that you have an open invitation

01:31:47.493 --> 01:31:50.353
to come back whenever you want to come back. If there's something burning in

01:31:50.353 --> 01:31:54.753
your chest and say, Eric, I need to talk about this, just feel free to reach

01:31:54.753 --> 01:31:56.813
out. and we'll get you on.

01:31:57.253 --> 01:31:59.273
But again, thank you for coming on today.

01:32:00.013 --> 01:32:03.253
Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. All right, guys. And we're going to

01:32:03.253 --> 01:32:04.333
catch y'all on the other side.

01:32:05.360 --> 01:32:16.720
Music.

01:32:16.568 --> 01:32:23.188
All right. And we are back. So I want to thank Jamie Mustard and Don Troop for coming on.

01:32:23.608 --> 01:32:29.068
I greatly appreciate it. Not only meeting them, but having the conversation with them.

01:32:29.228 --> 01:32:33.488
And I hope that y'all enjoy the conversations as well.

01:32:34.568 --> 01:32:37.548
I usually don't do two rants on a show.

01:32:37.668 --> 01:32:43.428
I usually do one rant and kind of close it out. But I had to do my rant at the

01:32:43.428 --> 01:32:46.268
beginning because so much stuff has happened.

01:32:48.088 --> 01:32:55.568
This week. But the other thing ties into something I've been trying to highlight

01:32:55.568 --> 01:32:59.028
on this podcast and we could see it coming.

01:32:59.748 --> 01:33:02.868
But now it's really, really in our face.

01:33:03.508 --> 01:33:12.828
And that's this push by the Trump administration to shut down diversity, equity, and inclusion.

01:33:14.028 --> 01:33:19.068
He gave a speech, I think, I can't remember where it was recently,

01:33:19.548 --> 01:33:27.288
you know, since he's been in office where he he said the end of all that stuff is here.

01:33:28.008 --> 01:33:36.608
That we we don't need to we we need to be merit based as opposed to trying to

01:33:36.608 --> 01:33:39.768
fill gaps, historical gaps.

01:33:41.608 --> 01:33:47.928
And, you know, people have been criticizing Elon Musk for the Nazi salute,

01:33:47.948 --> 01:33:53.688
and, you know, everybody's talking about he's enacting Project 2025 and all that stuff.

01:33:55.848 --> 01:34:00.368
Here's the real simple thing People

01:34:00.368 --> 01:34:12.368
For whatever reason Have created a tension point In their lives They may say

01:34:12.368 --> 01:34:17.628
That they were voting To get cheaper eggs Cheaper milk,

01:34:17.748 --> 01:34:20.488
cheaper bread Cheaper gas,

01:34:21.288 --> 01:34:29.448
They may have said that they want America to be more simple or more competitive in the world.

01:34:30.308 --> 01:34:40.628
But what they have unleashed is a trip back in time, a time where those of us

01:34:40.628 --> 01:34:45.208
in the black community had to fight for respect.

01:34:46.648 --> 01:34:53.148
As a child of the generation that was told that we have to do twice as good or be.

01:34:54.846 --> 01:34:59.546
Better than average, just to be considered equal.

01:35:00.606 --> 01:35:09.086
It's disheartening that now we're at a point in our history where we have a

01:35:09.086 --> 01:35:15.406
president that is openly more open, I think, than Woodrow Wilson even was.

01:35:15.846 --> 01:35:21.406
Because Woodrow Wilson, thank God, didn't have social media and the internet.

01:35:21.406 --> 01:35:32.226
But now it's being perversely pervading throughout the world,

01:35:32.226 --> 01:35:40.506
that America is now no longer a country that believes in equity and equality.

01:35:41.486 --> 01:35:48.326
Now, merit-based sounds innocuous, but if you're white, that's great.

01:35:48.326 --> 01:35:55.166
If you're black or anything else, that's harmful.

01:35:58.346 --> 01:36:04.226
That's, I can't even, that's really gaslighting us.

01:36:04.626 --> 01:36:12.786
That's, you know, the type of language that is alarming.

01:36:15.086 --> 01:36:21.966
Because that's what they were saying to us, our parents, our grandparents, you know.

01:36:22.306 --> 01:36:25.706
Well, we would have gave you the job, but we gave it to somebody else.

01:36:25.866 --> 01:36:31.746
Now, they don't want us going to their schools to increase diversity,

01:36:33.286 --> 01:36:40.746
but if Johnny's dad donated money and they built a dorm in the daddy's name,

01:36:40.926 --> 01:36:44.226
he can go to that school. with no problem.

01:36:45.166 --> 01:36:51.506
Where's the merit in that, right? And then you say that you want to be merit-based,

01:36:51.726 --> 01:36:57.526
but I'm trying to figure out of your nominees for your cabinet positions who

01:36:57.526 --> 01:37:01.046
actually qualifies in that merit-based category.

01:37:02.006 --> 01:37:03.326
You could say Marco Rubio.

01:37:05.190 --> 01:37:10.750
Maybe, you know, the treasurer, although he doesn't have a heart.

01:37:12.750 --> 01:37:17.070
I guess background-wise, he fits in. You could probably say Pam Bundy because

01:37:17.070 --> 01:37:22.210
she was an attorney general of a state, but not really, right?

01:37:22.210 --> 01:37:29.450
If your agenda is to say merit-based in the literal sense,

01:37:30.110 --> 01:37:38.610
then these positions should be filled by the top people in those respective fields in the nation.

01:37:38.970 --> 01:37:41.930
These are not the top people, period.

01:37:42.470 --> 01:37:49.950
These are the most sycophantic people. These are the most loyal people to you

01:37:49.950 --> 01:37:55.090
or your cause. but they're not merit-based.

01:37:56.010 --> 01:38:05.070
So, you know, the whole thing is that we have somehow become immune to hypocrisy in the United States.

01:38:05.830 --> 01:38:14.410
We just accept because we want to strongly believe in something that's not really

01:38:14.410 --> 01:38:17.470
happening, but we want to believe it is happening.

01:38:18.670 --> 01:38:26.250
We're putting our hopes in people that don't really care about us We're putting

01:38:26.250 --> 01:38:29.110
our faith in somebody that doesn't have faith,

01:38:30.290 --> 01:38:37.330
If you were offended Because a pastor asked you to show mercy At a church service.

01:38:39.390 --> 01:38:43.850
What more evidence do you want that these people are not on your side?

01:38:44.510 --> 01:38:53.030
Right? A literal pastor literally asked the President of the United States to show mercy. Period.

01:38:54.010 --> 01:38:59.850
Oh, that wasn't a good sermon at all. Really? How many sermons have you been attending?

01:39:01.319 --> 01:39:07.219
What part of Jesus's teachings do you not comprehend where mercy and love is involved?

01:39:09.299 --> 01:39:16.319
Ladies and gentlemen, we are in a bad place. Now, we're going to make it because

01:39:16.319 --> 01:39:21.519
there's enough of us that's going to fight to make sure that we make it.

01:39:22.239 --> 01:39:25.519
Whether it's in the courts, whether it's in the streets, whether it's in the

01:39:25.519 --> 01:39:32.139
halls of government, We're going to make it through because we asked y'all to

01:39:32.139 --> 01:39:34.979
come through and only half of y'all did.

01:39:37.539 --> 01:39:44.819
So we have to kind of take it from here, right? But we're going to make it through.

01:39:47.179 --> 01:39:55.699
And I hope that when we make it through that people learn something and do better.

01:39:56.519 --> 01:40:04.939
It's one thing for those elected or appointed or hired to take an oath to uphold the Constitution.

01:40:05.219 --> 01:40:10.079
But at some point in time, those of us who are citizens of this nation need to uphold it, too.

01:40:10.379 --> 01:40:14.079
If you don't understand anything else, just understand the preamble.

01:40:15.099 --> 01:40:19.659
Just understand that we're supposed to be a place that respects individual liberty.

01:40:20.059 --> 01:40:26.079
We're supposed to be a place where we provide defense for our nation.

01:40:26.519 --> 01:40:31.479
We're supposed to be a place where we promote the general welfare of everyone.

01:40:32.199 --> 01:40:37.919
That's what the preamble basically says. But we don't vote like that.

01:40:38.179 --> 01:40:41.019
We don't do our politics like that.

01:40:42.799 --> 01:40:47.259
I mean, you know, it's not just the Republicans either.

01:40:47.679 --> 01:40:54.939
I mean, the biggest voting bloc for Democrats was African Americans.

01:40:54.939 --> 01:41:01.919
And yet the most viable candidates to be the next chair of the DNC are not.

01:41:03.489 --> 01:41:08.989
We have one African-American running, one. Everybody else is running for vice

01:41:08.989 --> 01:41:10.149
chair, this, that, and the other.

01:41:10.269 --> 01:41:14.009
Now, I don't know if the memo went out as like, well, we had a black chair. We didn't win.

01:41:14.209 --> 01:41:16.429
So we're going to go with a white guy. I don't know.

01:41:17.169 --> 01:41:21.569
All I know is if we are supposed to be defending diversity, inclusion,

01:41:21.949 --> 01:41:29.109
and equity, then we need to practice what we preach, right?

01:41:29.509 --> 01:41:33.329
And that's nothing against the people who are running.

01:41:35.109 --> 01:41:40.749
But there's I mean, it's kind of ironic that we're upset that Donald Trump is

01:41:40.749 --> 01:41:42.269
saying we ought to be merit based.

01:41:43.089 --> 01:41:49.249
And the Democratic Party is, yeah, we don't pick a white dude this time.

01:41:49.989 --> 01:41:56.209
This is this is tough sledding, ladies and gentlemen, we're we're in for a bumpy ride.

01:41:56.209 --> 01:42:00.229
This roller coaster, it just reminds me of a street in Jackson.

01:42:00.229 --> 01:42:04.669
There was a street called Riverside Drive, and it's actually in a pretty nice

01:42:04.669 --> 01:42:13.889
neighborhood, but it was notorious for having potholes and having dips and all that stuff.

01:42:13.889 --> 01:42:18.489
It's to the point where folks were selling T-shirts, you know,

01:42:18.549 --> 01:42:21.849
saying you want to go for a ride, drive on Riverside. You know what I'm saying?

01:42:22.649 --> 01:42:26.889
That's what we are getting ready to go through. We're about to go through our

01:42:26.889 --> 01:42:34.569
dips in our potholes. We're about to traverse a road that is not going to be smooth at all.

01:42:36.049 --> 01:42:47.389
And if you want to hide in your self-deceit that this was about economics, feel free.

01:42:47.389 --> 01:42:56.729
But the end result of what you got is that you have a leader in the White House

01:42:56.729 --> 01:42:59.169
that wants a nation divided.

01:43:00.824 --> 01:43:07.384
Wants a nation that's unstable. And I don't know where the financial benefit of that is.

01:43:08.084 --> 01:43:12.724
I don't know what the transactional benefit of that is for him,

01:43:12.724 --> 01:43:16.704
but it's not a good transactional benefit for us.

01:43:17.224 --> 01:43:20.764
It's not going to be a financial benefit for us.

01:43:21.584 --> 01:43:25.044
It's not going to be a mental benefit for us. In some cases,

01:43:25.044 --> 01:43:27.984
it may not be a physical benefit for us.

01:43:28.784 --> 01:43:32.464
It may even cost a lot of us are mortality.

01:43:33.424 --> 01:43:39.884
That's how serious this is. So, you know, people try to warn folks.

01:43:40.704 --> 01:43:44.204
Didn't want to heed the warning. You're grown. You can do that.

01:43:44.804 --> 01:43:50.544
But now we got to deal with the consequences. So be thankful that some of us

01:43:50.544 --> 01:43:54.984
are not discouraged and are going to do what needs to be done.

01:43:55.464 --> 01:44:02.924
But understand, when the opportunity comes again, whether it's this election

01:44:02.924 --> 01:44:08.004
cycle or the election cycle four years from now, you've got to do better.

01:44:08.424 --> 01:44:14.924
We got to have leaders, American leaders, not selfish leaders,

01:44:15.264 --> 01:44:20.184
not corrupt leaders, not evil leaders.

01:44:20.464 --> 01:44:26.304
We need American leaders. We need people who understand that the beauty and

01:44:26.304 --> 01:44:30.124
the strength of this nation is that we're diverse.

01:44:30.664 --> 01:44:39.384
We are the only nation on the planet where every country in the world is represented, the only one.

01:44:40.804 --> 01:44:51.204
And we need to elect people who understand that and have the gumption and the fortitude to manage it.

01:44:51.584 --> 01:44:57.524
The easy way out is to just try to kick everybody out that ain't white and male

01:44:57.524 --> 01:45:00.164
and Christian. That's the easy way out.

01:45:00.624 --> 01:45:06.324
The real leaders are the ones who embrace the diversity that we have and want

01:45:06.324 --> 01:45:08.104
to make it better for everyone.

01:45:08.184 --> 01:45:12.084
If you want everybody to take the hyphens off American, Second.

01:45:13.644 --> 01:45:19.504
Stop lifting one group of Americans up and discarding the rest of them.

01:45:20.684 --> 01:45:28.464
Leadership is about being tough, true, but not tough toward the followers.

01:45:28.964 --> 01:45:31.224
It's being tough through the challenges.

01:45:32.024 --> 01:45:39.244
And the people that are in positions now, the overwhelming majority of them are not.

01:45:39.864 --> 01:45:43.444
And you might say, well, Eric, well, where do we get these leaders from?

01:45:44.624 --> 01:45:50.884
There are people in the community that should be in positions to look out for

01:45:50.884 --> 01:45:55.544
the community, other than just being a community activist, other than just being

01:45:55.544 --> 01:45:59.024
the president of the local NAACP or whatever.

01:45:59.564 --> 01:46:06.664
There are people that need to be in positions of power to make sure that government

01:46:06.664 --> 01:46:11.444
does right by the people and does no harm to the people.

01:46:12.064 --> 01:46:14.964
And that has to start happening now.

01:46:16.004 --> 01:46:21.284
Some of us may be too old to step into that role. That's fine.

01:46:21.984 --> 01:46:27.064
Then we need to train and teach young people to fill that void.

01:46:30.164 --> 01:46:33.804
Because we're at a very, very precarious position.

01:46:34.644 --> 01:46:41.084
Democracy as we know it, the lifestyles that we have known and grown accustomed to are on a cliff.

01:46:41.664 --> 01:46:46.184
And it's not going to take much to push us over that cliff if we do nothing.

01:46:47.224 --> 01:46:53.264
So when you hear people saying, well, we're not going to practice DEI and we

01:46:53.264 --> 01:46:59.004
want the government, government employees to snitch on folks who are doing DEI work.

01:47:02.384 --> 01:47:09.604
If we want to be a merit-based society, then we have to focus on building up people of merit.

01:47:10.724 --> 01:47:16.704
And the only way we can build up people of merit is that we give everybody a

01:47:16.704 --> 01:47:22.024
chance to be people of merit, not a select few.

01:47:22.884 --> 01:47:26.524
All right, guys. Thank you all for listening. Until next time.

01:47:27.600 --> 01:48:14.711
Music.