Safer Communities & Hidden Crucibles Featuring Cassie Owens and Claudia Rowe

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Music.

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Hello, welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming.

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I am your host, Erik Fleming, and it is good to have y'all tuning in for another episode.

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It is always an honor and a privilege to do this work and continue to bring

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you guests that I hope are enlightening and encouraging.

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And so the two ladies that I have on this episode, they're both dealing with accountability.

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One is involved in a project in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania to make journalism

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safer and more accountable.

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And we'll get into that in the discussion, what I mean by safer.

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And then the other lady has written a book that delves into an issue that I

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dealt with in the legislature tangentially,

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right?

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And I'm probably saying the word wrong, but not directly, but it played a major

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role in a lot of decisions that I had to be involved with.

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Dealing with foster care. And I think those are two subjects,

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media coverage and foster care, that should be on the minds of people.

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And hopefully by the end of this episode, it'll be firmly in your mind and get

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your wheels spinning about what can be done to improve both of those areas.

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We still are on our mission for 20,000. We're going to be on our mission until

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we get there. Trying to get 20,000 subscribers.

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Please go to patreon.com slash amomentwitherikfleming and go ahead and sign up.

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The bare minimum is a dollar if you want some cool stuff.

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You're going to have to pay a little more. But, you know, the main thing I'm

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trying to do, just like everybody else out here, is making sure that we have

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the resources to do what needs to be done,

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to maintain what we are doing.

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And, you know, it's like all of us want support that are doing these podcasts.

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And I will greatly appreciate all those who come through. And if we fall short,

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you know, I'm just one of those people that's like, if you reach for the moon

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and you don't make it, at least you might get to the stars, right?

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Or vice versa. I think if, oh, how's the phrase go? If you reach for the stars,

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you'll land on the moon. I think that's more appropriate.

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But either way, whatever the bottom line is, whatever you can give,

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whatever support you can give would be greatly appreciated.

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All right. So we're going to try to get this thing back to normal.

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We, you know, had a holiday, so kind of did a little things different on the

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holiday. But we should be back on track now.

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And that means that Grace G is back.

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Yay, Grace is back. So let's go ahead and kick this show off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Music.

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Thanks, Erik. A U.S. trade court ruled Trump's tariffs unconstitutional,

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asserting Congress holds authority over trade.

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A federal appeals court later reinstated the tariffs until further legal arguments were presented.

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A U.S. judge temporarily blocked Trump's policy revoking Harvard's ability to

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enroll foreign students, which Harvard claimed was retaliation for resisting political alignment.

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The Trump administration moved to terminate remaining federal contracts with

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Harvard, valued at $100 million per a directive to agencies.

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Elon Musk exited the Trump administration after leading federal restructuring

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efforts, which reduced the civilian workforce by 12 percent,

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or 260,000, through firings, buyouts, and retirements.

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Trump pardoned a former Virginia sheriff convicted of bribery,

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sparing him a 10-year prison sentence.

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NPR sued President Trump over an executive order cutting public broadcasting

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funds, alleging First Amendment violations.

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A Maryland congressman was denied access to meet with wrongfully deported Kilmar

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Abrego Garcia at the Salvadoran gang prison where he is being held.

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Missouri's Supreme Court reinstated a strict abortion ban by overturning lower court injunctions.

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The U.S. will revoke visas for Chinese students tied to the Chinese Communist

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Party or critical fields and tighten visa scrutiny for China and Hong Kong.

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And former Congressman Charles Rangel, the first African-American to chair the

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House Ways and Means Committee, died at the age of 94.

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I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.

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Music.

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All right, thank you, Grace, for that Moment of News. And now it's time for my guest, Cassie Owens.

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Cassie Owens is a storyteller, filmmaker, and organizer from Philadelphia.

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In her journalism career, Owens often covered the myriad communities that exist

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within Black Philadelphia.

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In 2019, at the Inquirer, she co-produced Legendary, a short film that won the

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Shine Award at the Black Star Film Festival.

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She currently works at Free Press, where she collaborates with journalists,

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community members, therapists, and organizers to change harmful crime coverage,

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the first project of its kind in Philadelphia.

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Owens loves her people, cultural history, gardening, and ancestral recipes.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Cassie Owens.

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Music.

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All right. Cassie Owens. How you doing, sister? You doing good?

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I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right. How you doing? I'm doing fine. I'm a little jealous.

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Ladies and gentlemen, before we started the interview, we were kind of talking and Ms.

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Cassie said that she was out of town chasing Beyonce down going to the concert.

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So I'm kind of jealous. I don't even have time, let alone anything else,

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to go to a Beyonce concert. But did you have a good time?

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It was amazing. I mean, it was three hours. It was a three-hour show in the pouring down rain.

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So I feel very sort of like in deep admiration of Beyonce and her crew's stamina through all of that.

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And also of, you know, the fans that were there, everybody was a trooper,

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but it was a, it was a beautiful experience.

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Okay, cool. That kind of sounds Woodstock-ish. Yeah.

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All right. So normally when I start these interviews, I usually do a couple

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of icebreakers and the first icebreaker is a quote.

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So let me get your response to this quote.

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Status quo generalism standards were never designed with black and brown communities

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in mind. What does that mean to you?

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So what it means to me is that historically, when these standards were professionalized.

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The journalism professors who came up with them didn't have Black students.

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The journalism publishers that, you know, made them standards in different newsrooms

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weren't, at the time, hiring a lot of Black journalists.

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It was a boys club, a white men's boys club, if you will, that really sort of

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decided the rules of the game.

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And so during that era, which happened during the 1800s into the early 20th century,

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that was a time where we did have Black journalists that had something to say,

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but who were not given equal stake in the formation of what we now hold as general

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practice in status quo journalism.

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Okay. All right. So my next icebreaker, I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20. 11. Okay.

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Where do you go to check a fact that you see, hear, or read?

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Hmm. Where do I go to check a fact that I see, hear, or read?

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I think that probably my first step might be Google. But depending on the fact,

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from there, I'll sort of, you know, try to decide what's the best expertise area to verify it.

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Should I go to a specific like academic journal or source?

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Should I talk to somebody in the community about it? Should I talk to somebody

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who experienced that thing from there?

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Okay. All right. So you all just released a code of ethics for community reporting

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in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, entitled Safer Reporting for Safer Communities.

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What happened 18 months ago that led to this cohort coming together to create this?

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So the Philadelphia Safer Journalism Project,

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which is the project that I lead, we have been collaborating with community

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and journalists who are a part of the community around what should be, as one cohort member,

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Manny Smith might say, the new rules of engagement.

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It was really clear that the standards that are often taught in journalism school or in newsrooms,

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that those standards don't align with the exact journalism that the community wants to see.

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That there's a richness,

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a proximity, and sort of a care, a level of care, right, for the community that

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needs to be embraced in order to make that journalism possible.

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And so we went about creating this together collectively to reflect the lessons

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that people had been holding individually and together around how to produce

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the journalism that the community needs.

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Yeah. So it wasn't a particular event that you said, hey, look,

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we need to get together and stop this.

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It was just, you know, something organic that kind of happened.

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You know, people just, I'm just trying to, was it something that triggered it

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or specifically triggered it or it just was time for y'all to get together and

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make that happen? I think it was time.

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This project grew out of other projects.

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We have previously been part of a coalition called Shift the Narrative that

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was dedicated to changing narratives and news coverage on crime and public safety in Philadelphia.

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And we also had been involved in a number of media accountability efforts and

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conversations with mainstream journalism outlets where some of the things were

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heard, some of the things weren't.

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And I think that like what

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had happened sort of like in the sum of those experiences was

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a need to sort of tap into the desire that was there to sort of stop asking

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like gatekeepers to shift things all the time and to invest more into the community

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wisdom that we have and to name exactly what we want to see.

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And so it grew organically out of that. Yeah.

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So you made the announcement during the anniversary of the murder of George

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Floyd, the fifth anniversary.

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Was there a correlation with timing it that way or did you it just happened that way?

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During the uprising following George Floyd's murder, the Philadelphia Inquirer

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had a headline on the story that led a section that was titled Buildings Matter Too.

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And this, honestly, it was a very traumatizing headline, obviously,

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but it opened up a deeper conversation about how journalism in the city needed

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to change and led to a lot of work that Free Press did, that I was working in

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the Inquirer newsroom at the time,

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that journalists in the newsroom did,

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that, of course, people in the community had been doing.

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To basically talk about how the shaping of these stories need to be entirely different.

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And so because of that, we wanted to, and also I want to lift up that one of the cohort members,

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Malav Kanuga, who is a co-owner of Making Worlds and the press Common Notions,

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Making Worlds is a bookstore and social center that's cooperatively owned.

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And he, like, as we were putting this together,

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was naming that this is something that we need to have at workshops as we are

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coming up on this milestone anniversary and we're revisiting what happened during the uprisings.

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And so we wanted this to be a resource that people could turn to in the city

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and outside of the city as those conversations were happening. Yeah.

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So let's talk specifically about the code. Is the code created through rank?

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And if it is, why is active listening the first article in the code?

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Active listening became the first because of one of the contributors,

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one of the co-authors, Yesenia DeMoya-Corea.

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At the first meeting that we had, sort of like moving through and co-writing

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these principles, I kind of came in with an outline that was based off of kind

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of like shared agreements that cohorts and other guests had really uplifted in the past.

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And we got to that point, act of listening, Yesenia was like, this needs to be first.

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And basically everybody, you know, agreed with that.

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It's important to start there because if you're not listening deep to the community,

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you can't actually be in tune with,

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the needs of the community. You can't be in tune with the reality and the dynamics

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that the community is facing.

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And you can't report effectively to the community if you're not putting listening first.

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Yeah. So I listed it. I kind of, when I'm describing different tenants of the

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code, I use the term article because it kind of reminds me of the constitution.

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So that's the way that's when you hear me say Article 20 or something like that.

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And that's that's that's why I'm doing it that way.

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So Article 20, since I brought it up, is kind of personal for me.

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When I worked at the Mississippi Link, I wrote an editorial condemning the Clarence

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Ledger, which is the daily newspaper in Jackson, Mississippi,

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for playing into racial stereotypes.

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They asked us to come to their office so that they could refute my editorial.

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Right. So they asked our editorial staff to show up at their office to have a meeting.

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Then they had one black editor write a rebuttal after we showed them the basis

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of why I wrote my editorial.

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Right. That was in 1997.

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So what in 2025 gives you hope that black journalists in Philadelphia can move the needle?

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So I think that what gives me hope is that even though Black journalists aren't

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always getting the credit for it, I see Black journalists changing how things have been done.

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And, you know, there's a historical legacy to that. Something that I talk about

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a lot with this work is how, you know, a lot of the work that Ida B.

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Wells did played a crucial role in what we now understand investigative journalism to be.

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But when I think about people who are doing the work now,

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I see a lot of people who are determined to uplift the truths of the Black experience

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in Philadelphia in spite of this being the Trump 2.0 era,

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in spite of journalism as an industry being in crisis, in spite of a lot of

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funding sources being threatened or already having been.

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Cut off in spite of all the layoffs. I think that there's.

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I think that there's a deep connection that a lot of the news storytellers and

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also, I think, in nonfiction media similarly,

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that people are actually continuing to do the work in spite of all the conditions.

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And I think that that's really what gives me hope, that people are continuing

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to keep going in spite of it all.

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Yeah. What is the stakeholder wheel? So the stakeholder wheel,

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and this is something that was lifted up by one of our guests,

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Professor Subu Vincent,

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who is a professor at Santa Clara University.

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It's a tool to actually evaluate power in sourcing and to use that as a guide

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to uplift people who don't hold as much power in the story.

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That often in status quo journalism, you see sourcing, especially sourcing on

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crime and public safety,

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that there is a stranglehold that power has over how the story gets told and

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who's considered a legitimate source and what are the accounts that actually come forward.

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Something that comes up a lot, obviously, is the over-reliance on police reporting,

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even to the point of being copaganda and a lot of single-sourced stories that

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exclusively come from police reporting.

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But even some of the stories that go beyond that rely on other forms of law

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enforcement, public officials.

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Folks at universities, and don't actually center the most impacted people who

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have a tremendous amount of things to say about the levels of safety in their

00:21:25.475 --> 00:21:27.795
communities and the experiences that they've had.

00:21:28.015 --> 00:21:32.815
So the stakeholder wheel is a tool to sort of map that out,

00:21:33.430 --> 00:21:39.370
And to pay close attention and to uplift the folks who don't hold as much power,

00:21:39.490 --> 00:21:41.390
but have a lot of valuable things to say.

00:21:42.150 --> 00:21:46.210
Yeah. You just you just introduced a new word to my lexicon,

00:21:46.410 --> 00:21:48.490
copaganda. I've never heard that before.

00:21:49.090 --> 00:21:52.910
But, you know, when I think when I think about that, you know,

00:21:53.190 --> 00:21:59.690
everywhere, everywhere I've lived, I grew up in Chicago, live in Jackson. And now I'm in Atlanta.

00:21:59.990 --> 00:22:08.310
There always seems to be one reporter that has that incredible access to the to law enforcement.

00:22:08.730 --> 00:22:13.670
And, you know, and it's just like, you know, anything that goes down,

00:22:13.910 --> 00:22:15.590
the police can do no wrong.

00:22:15.590 --> 00:22:23.830
And, you know, so I definitely understand how you need to have some sort of

00:22:23.830 --> 00:22:33.610
counterbalance and accountability to deal with that narrative,

00:22:33.770 --> 00:22:36.470
especially in black and brown communities.

00:22:36.470 --> 00:22:44.190
So some articles of this code seems like no brainers for journalism, ensuring accuracy.

00:22:45.310 --> 00:22:50.330
Refraining from assigning morality, balancing perspectives with facts,

00:22:50.870 --> 00:22:55.870
approaching people with care, and that sources deserve respect and transparency.

00:22:56.330 --> 00:23:00.590
My question to you is, why do you think modern journalism has strayed from that?

00:23:00.590 --> 00:23:06.070
I think because modern journalism is extractive.

00:23:06.290 --> 00:23:10.610
And I think that it's extractive because this is something that we talk a lot

00:23:10.610 --> 00:23:15.210
about with this project that doesn't always get talked about in journalism circles.

00:23:15.210 --> 00:23:18.830
But the way that journalism is done in the U.S.

00:23:18.950 --> 00:23:25.870
Is a colonial practice, and it is a practice that stems from a history of people

00:23:25.870 --> 00:23:32.490
who had settled on indigenous land describing how they saw their understanding

00:23:32.490 --> 00:23:33.730
of what was happening there.

00:23:33.730 --> 00:23:37.230
And that even though a lot of journalists,

00:23:37.690 --> 00:23:43.930
and I say this as a journalist, take pride in coming from a tradition where

00:23:43.930 --> 00:23:50.370
you are actually regularly challenging power depending on the stories that you're doing.

00:23:50.370 --> 00:23:55.950
And a lot of journalists, you know, don't see journalism as a prestige career.

00:23:56.270 --> 00:24:01.830
It still is a field that holds a tremendous amount of power with,

00:24:01.830 --> 00:24:06.910
like, you know, defining and shaping folks' understandings of the world and

00:24:06.910 --> 00:24:10.670
has been very exclusionary and hasn't given power.

00:24:11.465 --> 00:24:16.265
Still continues to be an industry rather where we don't actually see the diversity

00:24:16.265 --> 00:24:17.945
of our communities reflected.

00:24:18.325 --> 00:24:23.225
And so I think that that's, I think that that inherent power dynamic is why

00:24:23.225 --> 00:24:29.425
those things continue to be things that we have to remind people of and uplift and name.

00:24:29.425 --> 00:24:37.145
That there still is a norm in our industry of having folks come into a market

00:24:37.145 --> 00:24:42.305
and not necessarily looking at it as coming into a community that they didn't

00:24:42.305 --> 00:24:44.565
grow up in, that they aren't that familiar with.

00:24:44.565 --> 00:24:50.605
I mean, interviewing people from that standpoint and not necessarily having

00:24:50.605 --> 00:24:57.965
all of the understanding of how people in the community would expect respectful

00:24:57.965 --> 00:24:59.825
storytelling and interactions to go.

00:24:59.825 --> 00:25:07.905
So, you know, in education, one of the criticisms is that, you know,

00:25:08.045 --> 00:25:10.885
you're cranking out these teachers.

00:25:11.665 --> 00:25:15.385
Especially those that identify as white.

00:25:15.625 --> 00:25:24.865
I'm trying to do better since my last podcast interview and not get too hung up on the race label.

00:25:25.025 --> 00:25:29.125
But, you know, I'll continue to do my thing.

00:25:29.825 --> 00:25:34.085
Sometimes I call white people my light-skinned cousins just so I can do better on that.

00:25:34.285 --> 00:25:39.645
But they put these young women or men out here in the Black communities out

00:25:39.645 --> 00:25:46.345
of these education programs, and they've had no experience in the Black community at all, right?

00:25:46.965 --> 00:25:52.765
And so they burn out or get out of teaching or whatever.

00:25:53.385 --> 00:25:57.425
And I'm wondering, is it really the same way in journalism?

00:25:57.425 --> 00:26:03.385
It's like you turning all these kids out and and and then they get into the

00:26:03.385 --> 00:26:10.505
field and then they don't know how to tell a story from the perspective of the

00:26:10.505 --> 00:26:12.945
community that they're they're covering.

00:26:13.625 --> 00:26:21.065
Yeah, something that and some of this language landed into some of the larger

00:26:21.065 --> 00:26:22.965
descriptions of our work. But

00:26:22.965 --> 00:26:26.425
something that I started saying when I was still in the newsroom is that,

00:26:27.345 --> 00:26:34.645
We have a problem with authority without memory, that there are regularly folks.

00:26:35.845 --> 00:26:40.465
Non-melanated folks and some melanated folks, who come into situations and are

00:26:40.465 --> 00:26:45.905
able to dictate what's happening, whether they are teachers in a classroom or

00:26:45.905 --> 00:26:50.285
whether they are a reporter or editor moving through a story,

00:26:50.485 --> 00:26:55.465
who are able to say what's what and they don't know. They haven't the foggiest.

00:26:56.085 --> 00:26:59.185
They don't have the background. They don't have the context.

00:26:59.785 --> 00:27:05.205
And I was bringing up the memory piece of this because, you know,

00:27:05.465 --> 00:27:11.265
something that would consistently come up with stories on Black folk in Philadelphia

00:27:11.265 --> 00:27:14.725
would be the lack of historical context.

00:27:14.725 --> 00:27:21.705
You know, we have generations and generations and generations of community here.

00:27:22.085 --> 00:27:33.325
And, you know, Black Philadelphians have been making history in the city before America was a country.

00:27:33.325 --> 00:27:38.965
So it's like, if you don't have that context, if you don't know that history,

00:27:39.105 --> 00:27:41.105
if you don't have those cultural competencies,

00:27:41.485 --> 00:27:47.925
I think that it has to become more understood that it's not actually possible

00:27:47.925 --> 00:27:52.945
to do the best job that way, whether you're in education or you're in journalism.

00:27:52.945 --> 00:27:56.885
And I think that, unfortunately, some people take offense to that,

00:27:57.065 --> 00:28:00.885
but it's not meant to be offensive to go there.

00:28:01.145 --> 00:28:05.625
Like, you know, you should understand the communities that you're serving in

00:28:05.625 --> 00:28:07.645
order to do the best job. It's kind of simple.

00:28:08.545 --> 00:28:13.605
Yeah. So you kind of answered the next question with me at Libin,

00:28:13.765 --> 00:28:19.625
one in why is it important for storytellers to come from the communities they

00:28:19.625 --> 00:28:23.705
serve and to be accountable to those communities.

00:28:23.705 --> 00:28:32.565
I guess to rephrase that question, what is an example of an accountability measure

00:28:32.565 --> 00:28:37.425
for people, storytellers from the community?

00:28:38.385 --> 00:28:42.845
So something that we talked about in the meetings with the cohort and with our

00:28:42.845 --> 00:28:46.665
guests and our contributors is that, you know, often people,

00:28:47.295 --> 00:28:51.455
You know, like if someone from the community might have an issue with the story,

00:28:51.735 --> 00:28:55.635
they might be able to send an email or participate in a feedback loop,

00:28:55.795 --> 00:28:57.095
but then it might not go anywhere.

00:28:57.395 --> 00:28:59.835
Maybe somebody read it. Maybe somebody didn't.

00:29:00.295 --> 00:29:02.155
Often people don't get responded to.

00:29:03.275 --> 00:29:11.015
Accountability is deeper than that. And I'm going to reference the work of Shannon

00:29:11.015 --> 00:29:15.615
Perez Darby, who is a community accountability practitioner and organizer.

00:29:15.615 --> 00:29:18.215
But you know

00:29:18.215 --> 00:29:21.555
accountability is more than saying sorry it's

00:29:21.555 --> 00:29:27.755
more than acknowledgement it connects to you know repair and it connects to

00:29:27.755 --> 00:29:32.515
change behavior and even if you need to changing the conditions that cause that

00:29:32.515 --> 00:29:40.935
harm and I think that something that I remember from just times in the newsrooms, working with editors,

00:29:41.255 --> 00:29:47.055
is there would be a certain pride and even a certain thrill to the way that

00:29:47.055 --> 00:29:50.075
journalism, if you don't necessarily get something right.

00:29:50.655 --> 00:29:54.075
Allows you to get back out there, right? To try again.

00:29:54.535 --> 00:29:58.795
And I think that, and I've spoken to this in other interviews as well too,

00:29:58.895 --> 00:30:04.295
but I think that what the community is calling for is that you don't simply

00:30:04.295 --> 00:30:05.855
just get back out there, right?

00:30:06.055 --> 00:30:09.115
That repair is needed, learning is needed.

00:30:09.415 --> 00:30:14.915
As our cohort is lifted up, unlearning is needed to be able to just do the best

00:30:14.915 --> 00:30:20.375
job moving forward and to be in an accountable relationship with the people

00:30:20.375 --> 00:30:23.075
in the community who have named what was wrong.

00:30:23.215 --> 00:30:31.175
And also making space to know that you can't dictate for them how something

00:30:31.175 --> 00:30:36.015
exactly would need to be repaired or if the conditions of accountability have been met.

00:30:36.275 --> 00:30:42.035
You might try to fix something after you mess up and more still needs to be

00:30:42.035 --> 00:30:45.995
done. And you should be able to listen to that with openness.

00:30:47.215 --> 00:30:53.995
Yeah. So one of the things that you all highlighted was alignment.

00:30:54.295 --> 00:30:59.095
So do you believe that the news editors at Channel 3, Channel 6,

00:30:59.275 --> 00:31:04.235
Channel 10, Channel 29, and the Philadelphia Inquirer will align with that?

00:31:04.957 --> 00:31:08.497
I think they would align with some things. I think other things,

00:31:08.717 --> 00:31:12.517
depending on the editor, it might take more time or they might,

00:31:12.517 --> 00:31:14.277
you know, disagree with.

00:31:15.357 --> 00:31:20.197
These are, you know, editors who, like I've worked for The Inquirer and I've

00:31:20.197 --> 00:31:22.177
worked for some other places as well, too.

00:31:23.017 --> 00:31:27.217
And, you know, I think that I'm trying to think of how to put it,

00:31:27.357 --> 00:31:33.117
but there's a really wide range, right, of how people feel about these things.

00:31:33.277 --> 00:31:40.037
And there's also a dynamic of sometimes people feel beholden to standards that

00:31:40.037 --> 00:31:42.937
they don't necessarily agree with.

00:31:43.197 --> 00:31:51.557
I remember when the Dobbs decision happened and there was debate over how coverage

00:31:51.557 --> 00:31:55.757
of reproductive justice and abortion should happen and whether or not,

00:31:55.917 --> 00:32:01.237
you know, journalists outside of the newsroom should be able to just express

00:32:01.237 --> 00:32:02.897
their full opinions on that.

00:32:03.397 --> 00:32:08.837
There was a lot of dissensus around how people felt.

00:32:08.917 --> 00:32:15.837
And there was a number of people who were saying, but wait, I understand and I respect, you know.

00:32:16.537 --> 00:32:19.717
Journalistic integrity and the notion that I'm supposed to be unbiased,

00:32:19.837 --> 00:32:24.017
but what do you mean that I'm not supposed to have an opinion on my health care?

00:32:24.217 --> 00:32:30.717
I think that there's always, even if we're not talking about the specific topics

00:32:30.717 --> 00:32:32.637
that this cohort has taken on,

00:32:32.937 --> 00:32:41.697
there's always been tension with the notions that you have to be completely

00:32:41.697 --> 00:32:49.677
objective that you have to check certain boxes in order to maintain journalistic integrity.

00:32:49.997 --> 00:32:58.417
And so I think that essentially there might be people even who agree who still

00:32:58.417 --> 00:33:02.037
don't feel comfortable fully agreeing out loud.

00:33:02.317 --> 00:33:06.417
And I also think that that's part of the reason why we did this.

00:33:06.557 --> 00:33:09.737
We wanted to make a home for people who agree

00:33:09.737 --> 00:33:12.617
or also to lift the

00:33:12.617 --> 00:33:17.137
light up for people who agree to be able to come together because a lot of people

00:33:17.137 --> 00:33:25.177
who are in even alternative media spaces don't always feel completely free to

00:33:25.177 --> 00:33:30.097
make the decisions with their storytelling that they want to ethically.

00:33:30.377 --> 00:33:38.917
And so, yeah, we wanted to be able to build community around this particular set of standards.

00:33:39.217 --> 00:33:43.997
Yeah. And so you kind of touched on my next question because I was going to

00:33:43.997 --> 00:33:49.837
ask, why is it imperative to move past binary thinking, acknowledge biases and

00:33:49.837 --> 00:33:51.257
complicate the narrative?

00:33:52.174 --> 00:33:56.254
That's, you know, it's like they always try to teach you.

00:33:56.394 --> 00:34:01.054
And I tell people all the time, my show, I don't really consider myself a journalist

00:34:01.054 --> 00:34:06.974
because, you know, I do interview people, but I have an opinion about stuff.

00:34:06.974 --> 00:34:08.794
I come with a certain angle.

00:34:09.614 --> 00:34:12.914
And that's, you know, I'm not trying to hide that.

00:34:12.914 --> 00:34:21.114
But for, excuse me, but for a group of people who work in journalism to kind

00:34:21.114 --> 00:34:24.914
of stress that we need to get our mindsets past that,

00:34:25.014 --> 00:34:30.894
why did y'all feel that it was important in this day and time to acknowledge that?

00:34:30.894 --> 00:34:37.034
In part because it's something that, especially in stories on crime and public

00:34:37.034 --> 00:34:39.974
safety, it happens all the time, right?

00:34:40.154 --> 00:34:44.734
That we're regularly seeing stories, even if they don't use that language,

00:34:44.994 --> 00:34:48.454
where people are portrayed as good and bad.

00:34:48.454 --> 00:34:55.434
And that often when we're looking into the root causes or even if you have time

00:34:55.434 --> 00:35:04.974
to delve into the circumstances and the conditions of why harm happened or why it continues to happen.

00:35:05.294 --> 00:35:07.994
It's more complicated than that.

00:35:07.994 --> 00:35:18.014
And we wanted to make space for not simply attempting to not misinform,

00:35:18.294 --> 00:35:25.174
but to better inform communities around why different incidents would be happening.

00:35:25.494 --> 00:35:31.314
I do think that there is something when you're only adhering to binary thinking.

00:35:31.534 --> 00:35:36.634
I do think that there is a level of misinforming that happens through that.

00:35:36.634 --> 00:35:43.094
And also, too, and we name this in the Code of Ethics, but there's a framework

00:35:43.094 --> 00:35:48.694
for white supremacy culture and binary thinking is one of the tenets of that framework.

00:35:48.894 --> 00:35:56.854
And it's important to hold that in mind when you are producing stories or writing

00:35:56.854 --> 00:36:01.414
a story or putting things out in the world. All right.

00:36:01.574 --> 00:36:07.694
So my last question, will there be an effort to get other cities involved in adopting this code?

00:36:07.814 --> 00:36:13.394
Because I assume and I know it's bad to assume, but I assume that y'all are

00:36:13.394 --> 00:36:21.574
connected with Media 2070 and their overall project to not only uplift the black press, but to,

00:36:22.413 --> 00:36:29.113
create more of a balanced view, especially of black and brown communities in media.

00:36:30.033 --> 00:36:36.993
So, yeah, are y'all going to take this idea around the country or are you just

00:36:36.993 --> 00:36:38.213
going to focus on Philadelphia?

00:36:38.713 --> 00:36:44.973
We're going to do both. And Media 2070 partnered with the Philadelphia Safer

00:36:44.973 --> 00:36:51.933
Journalism Project and specifically Senior Director Tia Oso.

00:36:52.753 --> 00:36:56.613
Supported this and getting it out into the world, this quote of ethics.

00:36:56.793 --> 00:36:58.613
And so sending gratitude to her.

00:36:59.213 --> 00:37:01.353
We're also like, you know, in

00:37:01.353 --> 00:37:06.793
community with folks who are having this conversation around the country.

00:37:07.373 --> 00:37:14.453
And, you know, we are already in conversations about, you know.

00:37:15.073 --> 00:37:18.313
Sharing some of the lessons and learnings that we've had.

00:37:18.913 --> 00:37:23.653
This is an evolving document. We hope to update it with more standards.

00:37:24.093 --> 00:37:27.973
Like as we were doing some of the final edits on it, there were,

00:37:28.273 --> 00:37:34.053
for example, like plans already being made to like update it with guidance on

00:37:34.053 --> 00:37:38.853
AI and to share more things out about narrative work.

00:37:39.153 --> 00:37:46.793
So I think that when I say that we're gonna do both, we're focused on Philadelphia And also,

00:37:47.093 --> 00:37:55.453
we are committed to speaking from where we know, but we are inherently in community

00:37:55.453 --> 00:37:56.893
and in alignment with people who

00:37:56.893 --> 00:38:00.313
are having very similar, if not the same conversations around the country.

00:38:00.333 --> 00:38:03.413
And so we're going to continue to build with them, too. Yeah,

00:38:03.733 --> 00:38:08.133
well, I'm glad to hear that as far as, you know,

00:38:08.753 --> 00:38:13.453
the connection, because I've had the privilege of having several people,

00:38:13.613 --> 00:38:16.493
including Tia from Media 2070 on the podcast.

00:38:16.493 --> 00:38:23.993
And I think that what you are doing is not only necessary work, but good work.

00:38:24.633 --> 00:38:31.273
Because, you know, we just, in this day and age, right, we're just dealing with

00:38:31.273 --> 00:38:35.233
a whole lot of stuff. And people are kind of tuning out.

00:38:36.013 --> 00:38:41.833
And because they just, they don't know if they can trust something that they

00:38:41.833 --> 00:38:43.993
hear or they may read or whatever.

00:38:45.373 --> 00:38:50.093
So to have a group of journalists get together and say, hey,

00:38:50.233 --> 00:38:53.033
we can do better, that's very, very commendable.

00:38:53.253 --> 00:38:58.313
So Cassie Owens, thank you for being a part of that work. I know it wasn't just

00:38:58.313 --> 00:39:00.233
you. I know it was a whole bunch of folks.

00:39:00.793 --> 00:39:05.613
But I'm glad you were able to speak on their behalf and come on the podcast and do that.

00:39:05.613 --> 00:39:12.533
If people want to get more information on this code and a project you're working

00:39:12.533 --> 00:39:16.233
on, or just they want to get in touch with you, how can they do that?

00:39:17.057 --> 00:39:21.117
So if they want more information on the Code of Ethics and on the Philadelphia

00:39:21.117 --> 00:39:27.477
Safer Journalism Project overall, they can check out saferjournalism.org.

00:39:28.477 --> 00:39:33.177
And if folks want to get in touch with me, they can feel free to reach out to

00:39:33.177 --> 00:39:37.017
me through social media or they can contact me.

00:39:37.157 --> 00:39:41.017
I have my own personal website, CassieOwens.com.

00:39:41.317 --> 00:39:48.137
I'm at Cassie Owens on X. I am at Cassie Opiea on Instagram.

00:39:49.497 --> 00:39:52.657
And I look forward to,

00:39:53.357 --> 00:39:57.077
continuing to be in conversation with folks about it and also just want to express

00:39:57.077 --> 00:40:05.177
gratitude to you for making space for us to just even talk about this and also

00:40:05.177 --> 00:40:10.157
for the compliments that you gave to the work it was a real labor of love it

00:40:10.157 --> 00:40:12.677
took us about 18 months to get it done,

00:40:13.577 --> 00:40:15.017
and just thank you.

00:40:15.957 --> 00:40:21.017
All right. Well, again, Cassie, thank you. And anytime you want to come back

00:40:21.017 --> 00:40:25.217
on for anything, if it's related to this or something else that's burning,

00:40:25.577 --> 00:40:27.617
just feel free to come back on.

00:40:27.917 --> 00:40:31.877
You know, my door is open, especially those folks that take the initial step

00:40:31.877 --> 00:40:35.057
to come on the show. So please take advantage of that.

00:40:35.817 --> 00:40:39.557
Thank you. Appreciate you. All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the show.

00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:57.520
Music.

00:40:58.540 --> 00:41:03.880
All right. And we are back. And so it's time for our next guest, Claudia Rowe.

00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:09.740
Claudia Rowe has been writing about the hallways where kids and government clash for more than 30 years.

00:41:10.020 --> 00:41:14.620
A native of New York City, now living in Seattle, her reporting on racially

00:41:14.620 --> 00:41:20.740
skewed school discipline for the Seattle Times helped change education laws in Washington state.

00:41:21.020 --> 00:41:25.440
And her coverage of Latino youth gangs was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize.

00:41:26.060 --> 00:41:31.260
Roe has also written for the New York Times, Mother Jones, and Amazon Original Stories.

00:41:31.740 --> 00:41:38.860
In 2018, she received the Washington State Book Award for her crime memoir, The Spider and the Fly.

00:41:39.160 --> 00:41:42.560
She is a member of the editorial board at the Seattle Times,

00:41:42.740 --> 00:41:47.100
where she writes about foster care, juvenile justice, and public education.

00:41:47.100 --> 00:41:53.500
Her new book, which we will discuss, Wards of the State, The Long Shadow of

00:41:53.500 --> 00:41:57.760
American Foster Care, was just published by Abrams Press.

00:41:58.120 --> 00:42:02.740
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:42:02.740 --> 00:42:06.120
on this podcast, Claudia Rowe.

00:42:06.160 --> 00:42:15.760
Music.

00:42:17.100 --> 00:42:21.200
All right. Claudia Rowe. How are you doing, ma'am? You doing good?

00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:26.680
Doing fine. Thanks for having me on. Well, I'm honored to have you because you

00:42:26.680 --> 00:42:33.280
jumped into a subject that people talk about, but not really talk about.

00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:36.580
You know what I'm saying? It's like people know it's out there.

00:42:37.420 --> 00:42:41.700
And, you know, there's been some efforts and I'll kind of get into a little

00:42:41.700 --> 00:42:46.820
bit of my personal journey. but but you dove right into it and you wrote this

00:42:46.820 --> 00:42:48.620
book called wards of the state,

00:42:49.610 --> 00:42:54.530
And yeah, so let's go ahead and talk about this. Normally, when I when I start

00:42:54.530 --> 00:42:58.290
off a show, I usually do a couple of icebreakers.

00:42:58.430 --> 00:43:00.390
So the first icebreaker is a quote.

00:43:01.070 --> 00:43:08.530
So your quote is, I began to wonder if foster care wasn't a crucible hidden in plain sight.

00:43:08.530 --> 00:43:14.090
I began to ask whether his failures were an unacknowledged factor driving mass homelessness,

00:43:14.910 --> 00:43:21.510
drug addiction, and property crimes, one of the gears powering America's incarceration complex,

00:43:21.870 --> 00:43:27.810
pumping out kids so ill-equipped to function as adults that locked sales became

00:43:27.810 --> 00:43:30.950
the most logical outcome. Talk to me about that quote.

00:43:31.370 --> 00:43:35.430
Okay. So in my day job, I'm a journalist.

00:43:36.170 --> 00:43:41.510
I've been covering juvenile justice and child welfare more than 30 years.

00:43:43.010 --> 00:43:48.830
In the early 2000s, a bunch of studies came out that crossed my radar about

00:43:48.830 --> 00:43:53.390
what happened to kids when they aged out of foster care, when they were young adults.

00:43:53.710 --> 00:43:57.870
And it kind of blew my mind because, like I said, I had covered child welfare.

00:43:57.870 --> 00:44:02.130
But most media, as you know, we cover, you know,

00:44:02.650 --> 00:44:07.630
foster care when some awful thing happens, when a little kid is is either left

00:44:07.630 --> 00:44:11.050
with their biological parents and they shouldn't have been and they get killed

00:44:11.050 --> 00:44:14.570
or they're killed in foster care, you know, some like crisis disaster.

00:44:14.570 --> 00:44:18.450
But we really don't devote a whole lot of attention to the other end,

00:44:18.610 --> 00:44:24.110
to the outcomes, to what happens to older youth and then their sort of path as adults.

00:44:24.110 --> 00:44:27.910
But I found these studies, not obscure,

00:44:28.250 --> 00:44:32.610
major studies called the Midwest Evaluations in the early 2000s,

00:44:32.630 --> 00:44:39.530
and they said that 59% of kids who age out of foster care will have experienced

00:44:39.530 --> 00:44:41.250
some kind of lockup, incarceration,

00:44:41.610 --> 00:44:43.550
by the time they're 26th.

00:44:44.227 --> 00:44:48.267
This blew my mind, because at the same time, we were starting to hear that,

00:44:48.307 --> 00:44:53.147
you know, at that time, like 3% of kids who age out of foster care were ever

00:44:53.147 --> 00:44:54.707
getting four-year college degrees.

00:44:55.087 --> 00:45:00.647
I think it's slightly higher now, maybe like fewer than 5% ever get college

00:45:00.647 --> 00:45:07.107
degrees, a four-year college degree, but still, 59% lockup.

00:45:07.107 --> 00:45:14.307
Then I found this MIT economist, again, not a fringe character, MIT economist,

00:45:14.707 --> 00:45:23.627
pretty sober scientific individual who found that kids in foster care are three

00:45:23.627 --> 00:45:30.587
times more likely to be incarcerated than similar children not removed to foster care.

00:45:30.587 --> 00:45:34.867
Other kids in families that are struggling but didn't get taken into foster care.

00:45:35.027 --> 00:45:40.647
So those two things just blew my mind. And they just kind of rattled around in there for a while.

00:45:40.867 --> 00:45:45.907
And then many years later, I'm sitting in court watching this teenage girl get

00:45:45.907 --> 00:45:48.907
sentenced for murder. It's 2019.

00:45:49.427 --> 00:45:53.627
And I'm watching this girl get sentenced for murder. And the proceeding,

00:45:53.807 --> 00:45:57.067
which was supposed to be just a quick two-hour thing, wasn't.

00:45:57.147 --> 00:46:00.667
And it ended up getting continued over three days. And by the end of that,

00:46:00.827 --> 00:46:04.987
I realized, oh, wow, wow, this is not just a crime story.

00:46:05.107 --> 00:46:07.267
This is a foster care story.

00:46:07.407 --> 00:46:11.867
This girl had been in foster care, had been adopted, had been kicked back from

00:46:11.867 --> 00:46:15.527
her adoptive family into foster care, which is surprisingly common.

00:46:15.527 --> 00:46:19.387
And we never talk about, how often that happens and the effects of that.

00:46:20.287 --> 00:46:24.547
That is when sort of the different areas that I had covered as a journalist,

00:46:24.747 --> 00:46:27.807
juvenile justice, child welfare, kind of came together.

00:46:27.807 --> 00:46:33.127
And I realized what people in the field, of course, realize very clearly,

00:46:33.307 --> 00:46:36.507
the incredible overlap between these two systems.

00:46:36.667 --> 00:46:40.267
You could even call it a handoff from one to the other.

00:46:40.387 --> 00:46:44.287
And that is why I jumped in and started looking at the brain science and the

00:46:44.287 --> 00:46:47.747
history and found what you described in that quote.

00:46:48.620 --> 00:46:54.060
So my second icebreaker, we'll kind of deviate a little bit from that.

00:46:54.320 --> 00:46:56.840
Just give me a number between 1 and 20.

00:46:57.460 --> 00:47:03.680
Give you any number between 1 and 20? Yes, ma'am. 17. All right. 17.

00:47:04.740 --> 00:47:09.900
What's something people who see you, who see the world differently than you

00:47:09.900 --> 00:47:11.240
that you've come to appreciate?

00:47:11.240 --> 00:47:14.500
What's something that people who

00:47:14.500 --> 00:47:17.760
see the world differently than I do is something

00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:22.080
I've come to appreciate that's a good question something

00:47:22.080 --> 00:47:25.280
I've come to appreciate is the power of family

00:47:25.280 --> 00:47:28.800
for good and for ill for destruction

00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:32.160
and for reclamation hearing

00:47:32.160 --> 00:47:38.720
healing and rehabilitation the power of and I don't necessarily mean like biological

00:47:38.720 --> 00:47:47.000
family a family relationship The power of that kind of connection to mitigate

00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:49.560
early trauma, early harm,

00:47:49.820 --> 00:47:52.060
early anything that went off course,

00:47:52.380 --> 00:47:58.060
the power of that to change a person is something I realized through this process

00:47:58.060 --> 00:48:00.260
and perhaps didn't appreciate enough before.

00:48:01.180 --> 00:48:05.780
Yeah. All right. So that was a slight deviation, but the way you answered it

00:48:05.780 --> 00:48:08.140
kind of brought it back home. That was good.

00:48:08.860 --> 00:48:13.160
So when I was in the Mississippi legislature, I served on the Juvenile Justice Committee.

00:48:13.220 --> 00:48:18.460
I served on that committee for all nine years that I was there.

00:48:18.680 --> 00:48:21.240
And that primarily dealt with youth detention.

00:48:21.580 --> 00:48:27.560
We had two youth detention centers initially. One was for boys and one was for

00:48:27.560 --> 00:48:34.640
girls. And then during my tenure was when we closed down the female one.

00:48:34.940 --> 00:48:38.840
And that was, that's a, I could write a book about that.

00:48:39.888 --> 00:48:43.648
And then I also served on the board of directors for an adoption nonprofit.

00:48:44.148 --> 00:48:47.888
So the issue of foster care has had an impact on my public service.

00:48:48.108 --> 00:48:53.908
So explain to the listeners what exactly is foster care. Okay.

00:48:55.148 --> 00:48:59.048
First of all, I want to just add for the listeners, the subtitle of the book,

00:48:59.228 --> 00:49:03.308
Wards of the State, is The Long Shadow of American Foster Care.

00:49:03.308 --> 00:49:08.068
And my argument is that it's not just something that kids are a system that,

00:49:08.228 --> 00:49:09.728
you know, to answer your question.

00:49:09.908 --> 00:49:16.668
So when the state, a state social worker determines that a child is living in

00:49:16.668 --> 00:49:22.968
an unsafe home, they can petition the courts to remove that child to foster care.

00:49:22.968 --> 00:49:27.168
Traditionally, that would mean turning that child over to a stranger,

00:49:27.528 --> 00:49:32.788
traditionally, who would then be supported by the state with state money to

00:49:32.788 --> 00:49:35.348
feed and clothe and care for that child.

00:49:35.508 --> 00:49:40.008
That is traditional foster care, taking a kid from an allegedly unsafe home

00:49:40.008 --> 00:49:43.308
situation and putting them with a stranger, generally.

00:49:43.928 --> 00:49:49.508
There have been, as you know, many efforts to adjust that and mitigate that,

00:49:49.548 --> 00:49:52.548
but that is roughly what foster care is.

00:49:52.548 --> 00:49:56.868
And the subtitle of the book is saying the effects of this system,

00:49:57.028 --> 00:50:02.188
not because of some abuser, bad villain in the system, but the structure of

00:50:02.188 --> 00:50:04.068
the system itself, the machine.

00:50:05.752 --> 00:50:11.712
Is so damaging for kids. Not, again, not because of particular abuse in the

00:50:11.712 --> 00:50:14.652
system, which obviously happens, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

00:50:14.772 --> 00:50:18.992
I'm talking about the actual structure of removing kids from their biological

00:50:18.992 --> 00:50:23.312
home, their biological family, even if the family is struggling,

00:50:23.512 --> 00:50:25.452
dysfunctional, less than ideal.

00:50:25.752 --> 00:50:31.212
The effects of being shuttled around from the home of one stranger to another

00:50:31.212 --> 00:50:37.372
in foster care are so damaging for kids that they create a shadow over that person's life,

00:50:37.412 --> 00:50:41.112
even if that person does go on to become a huge success.

00:50:41.112 --> 00:50:45.492
And there are people in the book who have become activists and lawyers and their

00:50:45.492 --> 00:50:48.952
former foster kids, but it still haunts them.

00:50:49.132 --> 00:50:53.112
It is a shape. It is shaping their memories, their lives.

00:50:53.232 --> 00:51:00.132
And I am arguing that it's a shadow overall of American culture because of the

00:51:00.132 --> 00:51:02.592
connection to homelessness and incarceration,

00:51:03.032 --> 00:51:09.332
that it's kind of this invisible force driving these highly visible social outcomes

00:51:09.332 --> 00:51:10.652
of homelessness and incarceration.

00:51:10.652 --> 00:51:16.632
But we never think about sort of foster care behind the veil back there as sort

00:51:16.632 --> 00:51:21.632
of an early engine for these enormous social problems that we're always talking about.

00:51:22.092 --> 00:51:28.652
Well, since you brought up the long shadow, give the listeners an example of

00:51:28.652 --> 00:51:33.592
the long term causal effects of foster care.

00:51:33.692 --> 00:51:37.732
You don't have to go through every one, but just one in particular that I think

00:51:37.732 --> 00:51:40.292
really, that you think, I should say,

00:51:40.572 --> 00:51:46.552
that the listeners might be able to relate to and see in young people or even

00:51:46.552 --> 00:51:48.752
adults that have been through that system.

00:51:49.392 --> 00:51:52.632
There's a little bit of brain science in the book, not a ton,

00:51:52.812 --> 00:51:55.392
but a little, and I'm going to speak to that. So.

00:51:56.399 --> 00:52:03.039
All humans, any human, when born, attaches to their caregiver as a matter of

00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:07.059
evolutionary survival, right? We can't feed ourselves. We can't speak.

00:52:07.219 --> 00:52:11.139
We can barely move when we're born. So as a matter of survival of the species,

00:52:11.399 --> 00:52:13.799
you attach to your caregiver.

00:52:14.079 --> 00:52:17.099
This is not just like, oh, you like them or they help.

00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:23.139
This is like a biological imprint in you. When you are removed from that person.

00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:28.879
There's a rift there and it affects your future ability to attach.

00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:32.219
Then you go into foster care and you're moved from home to home.

00:52:32.459 --> 00:52:39.259
And foster parents traditionally have been discouraged from forging really tight

00:52:39.259 --> 00:52:42.439
ongoing bonds with the kids in their care.

00:52:42.439 --> 00:52:46.319
Like when the child moves to another home because you have decided,

00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:48.479
you know, you're not in it for adoption, right?

00:52:48.559 --> 00:52:51.059
You're just a kind of a way station, frankly.

00:52:51.279 --> 00:52:55.339
That's the way the system treats foster parents is like a way station.

00:52:55.499 --> 00:53:00.759
And when the kid moves to another foster home, you are not supposed to be calling

00:53:00.759 --> 00:53:02.319
them up and saying, how are you doing?

00:53:02.559 --> 00:53:05.959
You're not supposed to maintain that ongoing bond with them.

00:53:05.959 --> 00:53:15.059
This sort of habitual undercutting of a human biological need to form attachments

00:53:15.059 --> 00:53:18.519
has chemical effects in kids'

00:53:18.679 --> 00:53:24.619
brains with cortisol, which is a stress hormone, and those chemical effects play out in behavior.

00:53:24.619 --> 00:53:29.059
They affect kids' ability to sleep, concentrate, manage their emotions,

00:53:29.059 --> 00:53:36.199
and that setup in childhood sort of stretches into your adult life.

00:53:36.199 --> 00:53:38.999
And I'm not saying this is true for every single kid in foster care,

00:53:39.139 --> 00:53:45.459
but broadly, this undercutting of attachment can play out in,

00:53:45.459 --> 00:53:48.439
like, the ways that all of us.

00:53:48.739 --> 00:53:54.499
Every adult, deals with sort of rough things in life, like humiliation or impatience

00:53:54.499 --> 00:53:59.099
or you're insulted on the job, you hate your boss, whatever,

00:53:59.299 --> 00:54:00.959
stuff that we all deal with, right?

00:54:00.959 --> 00:54:07.019
For a lot of foster kids, when they get out into the world, they have a really spotty education.

00:54:07.339 --> 00:54:17.019
They have no sort of ongoing bonds with any trustworthy adult in an ongoing

00:54:17.019 --> 00:54:18.919
sense that they can really rely on.

00:54:18.919 --> 00:54:24.119
So they're just out there and they have this undercut attachment system in their

00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:31.119
brains so that when a boss is rude or they hate their shift on the job, whatever,

00:54:31.339 --> 00:54:35.939
instead of kind of being able to incorporate that,

00:54:36.179 --> 00:54:38.139
buckle down and keep going is

00:54:38.139 --> 00:54:43.459
really, really hard for foster youth who are now young adults to sort of.

00:54:44.255 --> 00:54:48.355
Emotional resilience is, I think, what you could call it, like to bounce back

00:54:48.355 --> 00:54:52.495
from the sort of challenges of life that we all face really,

00:54:52.655 --> 00:54:57.515
really hard for foster kids because they don't have this original foundation of attachment.

00:54:57.515 --> 00:55:03.635
And it plays out in unemployment, underemployment, and what I've described as

00:55:03.635 --> 00:55:08.375
homelessness, the incredible chart, off the charts rates of homelessness and incarceration.

00:55:08.375 --> 00:55:18.735
So basically, in reading the book, you equate that or it's been identified as a form of PTSD.

00:55:19.195 --> 00:55:27.255
Yeah, there is really credible research that says foster kids have higher rates,

00:55:27.535 --> 00:55:32.875
like almost double the rate of PTSD compared to veterans from the Iraq war.

00:55:33.235 --> 00:55:36.635
War veterans, foster kids have higher rates of PTSD.

00:55:36.635 --> 00:55:41.955
And again, the research in this book is not like some fringe stuff,

00:55:41.955 --> 00:55:47.755
like the National Academies of Science. This is a panel of lawyers and scientists

00:55:47.755 --> 00:55:51.335
brought together by the government, the National Academies of Science.

00:55:51.475 --> 00:55:57.515
They released this 400-page tome pretty recently, in the last few years.

00:55:57.515 --> 00:56:03.495
And it itself says that foster care is inherently damaging. The system itself,

00:56:03.695 --> 00:56:08.495
the experience of it itself, at its best, it is damaging.

00:56:09.605 --> 00:56:15.505
So you started off by talking about this particular case that you were following

00:56:15.505 --> 00:56:19.725
in 2019. I think the young lady's name was Marianne. Correct.

00:56:20.085 --> 00:56:25.345
Was she the main motivation for you writing a book about it?

00:56:25.425 --> 00:56:29.105
And did you feel that because you've been a journalist for a number of years

00:56:29.105 --> 00:56:37.545
that you could really, really pull that off and get to the meat of this issue

00:56:37.545 --> 00:56:39.185
and make people aware of,

00:56:39.525 --> 00:56:41.985
you know, the magnitude of it.

00:56:42.225 --> 00:56:46.525
I don't think I went into it with such high ambitions and aspirations.

00:56:46.705 --> 00:56:51.685
What happened with Marianne, like I said, I saw her in court.

00:56:52.445 --> 00:56:58.785
Even the judge who sentenced her to 19 years, even the judge said,

00:56:58.945 --> 00:57:04.185
hey, we don't want to totally blame foster care, but clearly opportunities were missed.

00:57:04.285 --> 00:57:07.065
And this was the argument Marianne's defense team was making,

00:57:07.285 --> 00:57:13.245
that foster care was at least partly to blame for the crime she had committed, this murder.

00:57:13.585 --> 00:57:15.565
I was intrigued by that argument.

00:57:15.925 --> 00:57:21.085
Like I said, it rang a bell with earlier research I knew from like 2005,

00:57:21.685 --> 00:57:24.185
6, 7, in there, this thing about

00:57:24.185 --> 00:57:30.345
59% of kids aging out of foster care will experience lockup by age 26.

00:57:30.585 --> 00:57:34.045
So that data point was in my mind.

00:57:34.145 --> 00:57:37.625
I'm watching this kid, Marianne gets sentenced, I'm hearing the judge go,

00:57:37.765 --> 00:57:41.425
yeah, you know, Washington State foster care might have something to do with

00:57:41.425 --> 00:57:43.045
it, but I'm still sentencing her.

00:57:44.185 --> 00:57:48.965
I think when I started out, what I really wanted to do was understand...

00:57:50.557 --> 00:57:54.657
The emotional or psychological reality of being that kid?

00:57:54.857 --> 00:57:58.097
What is the experience of being a kid on the street?

00:57:58.257 --> 00:58:02.157
There are a couple of things I found in the reporting that are really common

00:58:02.157 --> 00:58:07.337
experiences in foster care, and they seem tied to this incarceration outcome.

00:58:07.537 --> 00:58:10.737
And one of them is running away. Running away from a placement.

00:58:11.437 --> 00:58:16.537
Mary Ann did it chronically. It's really, really common for adolescents in foster care to run.

00:58:16.657 --> 00:58:19.657
And when they run, as you know, they're not necessarily running.

00:58:19.657 --> 00:58:21.697
They're just not where they're supposed to be.

00:58:21.797 --> 00:58:25.077
And it could be for a day or a week or a month or whatever.

00:58:25.257 --> 00:58:29.337
But when they are out there, you know, they get hungry.

00:58:29.537 --> 00:58:34.497
They don't have any money. And they are likely to shoplift or allow themselves

00:58:34.497 --> 00:58:37.977
to be trafficked, trade sex for food or shelter.

00:58:38.597 --> 00:58:41.677
These things are going to, you know, eventually the cops are going to pick them

00:58:41.677 --> 00:58:44.877
up for one of these things. And then they're going to juvenile detention.

00:58:45.057 --> 00:58:50.097
So there, they just got locked up, right? So that's one major reason why the

00:58:50.097 --> 00:58:54.217
number, 59% of kids in foster care will have experienced incarceration.

00:58:54.517 --> 00:58:58.857
That's one major driver for such a high number, right? A lot of kids getting

00:58:58.857 --> 00:59:02.397
picked up while they're still in foster care and they go to juvie.

00:59:03.297 --> 00:59:07.737
Another reason is group homes, failed adoptions, which I mentioned earlier.

00:59:07.977 --> 00:59:13.477
And aging out at 18 without support. So these sort of drivers that lead to homelessness

00:59:13.477 --> 00:59:18.797
and incarceration, I really wanted to be like, yeah, yeah, I know the data. I want to...

00:59:19.661 --> 00:59:24.141
Go through a kid's eyes. Everybody has a reason for what they do,

00:59:24.281 --> 00:59:28.681
even if we, outside, can't understand the logic.

00:59:28.841 --> 00:59:32.601
There is a logic in, there was a logic in Marianne's mind. I mean,

00:59:32.781 --> 00:59:34.761
I wouldn't call it a calm logic.

00:59:34.921 --> 00:59:37.341
She was like back against the wall feeling desperate.

00:59:37.641 --> 00:59:43.881
But I really wanted to get in her head and understand what it is to be walking

00:59:43.881 --> 00:59:48.061
around on the street when you're 15 years old, it's two o'clock in the morning. What is that like?

00:59:48.441 --> 00:59:52.941
What is it to grow up in a group home? What does it feel like when your adoptive

00:59:52.941 --> 00:59:56.861
family says, yeah, no, we're sending you back to foster care?

00:59:57.061 --> 00:59:59.801
You know, what is it to be 18 years old?

01:00:00.261 --> 01:00:05.781
Okay, good luck to you, says your foster family, and you literally walk away,

01:00:06.281 --> 01:00:09.081
hey, thanks, bye, with your stuff in a garbage bag.

01:00:09.081 --> 01:00:14.441
You know, when I was a reporter in 2005 or 6, I mean, I'm still a reporter,

01:00:14.601 --> 01:00:20.101
but at that time, we were first hearing about this thing about aging out and like, wow,

01:00:20.401 --> 01:00:24.881
all these kids at 18, the state cuts off support, sometimes 21.

01:00:25.141 --> 01:00:29.321
But the state cuts off support and kids are off into the world and they have,

01:00:29.441 --> 01:00:32.721
you know, very spotty educations because they've moved around so much.

01:00:33.241 --> 01:00:37.861
And I remember writing this thing about a kid told me, yes, he left with his

01:00:37.861 --> 01:00:40.461
stuff in a garbage bag and his foster family said, you know,

01:00:40.581 --> 01:00:42.961
goodbye. Good luck to you. My editor would not run it.

01:00:43.181 --> 01:00:47.261
She was like, that is hyperbole. There's no way they're walking around with

01:00:47.261 --> 01:00:48.481
their stuff in a garbage bag.

01:00:48.521 --> 01:00:51.281
But it is true. That is the reality.

01:00:52.021 --> 01:00:55.681
Sorry, I got off track. Your question. Oh, what was I trying to do with this

01:00:55.681 --> 01:00:57.321
project? Get in their heads.

01:00:58.201 --> 01:01:03.361
Yeah. So there's a couple of things I want to pick up out of that answer.

01:01:03.761 --> 01:01:09.261
So was that the first time you realized how broken the system was when you were

01:01:09.261 --> 01:01:13.401
trying to get in Marianne's head or had you had an idea of being a reporter

01:01:13.401 --> 01:01:17.641
covering, you know, juvenile detention and all that?

01:01:18.590 --> 01:01:23.630
When did you get your first sense that, yeah, this foster care system ain't

01:01:23.630 --> 01:01:25.110
exactly working as planned?

01:01:25.850 --> 01:01:30.770
That is not when I first realized. I realized much earlier, and I'll tell you,

01:01:31.090 --> 01:01:35.990
I realized sort of from the other end of the system, the social worker end.

01:01:36.170 --> 01:01:41.870
When social workers are making the call about whether and when to remove a kid

01:01:41.870 --> 01:01:48.830
from their parents' home. So this is, again, in the early 2000s when I'm first

01:01:48.830 --> 01:01:51.030
stumbling on all this data and research.

01:01:51.350 --> 01:01:57.570
And we were writing about, you know, again, very young children and whether

01:01:57.570 --> 01:02:02.470
a social worker made the call to remove them or not remove them from their biological

01:02:02.470 --> 01:02:05.150
parent and what happens then.

01:02:05.150 --> 01:02:09.210
So I did this, I followed some social workers around, you know,

01:02:09.270 --> 01:02:12.710
I had permission to watch them as they made their rounds and just,

01:02:12.830 --> 01:02:17.330
I'm just keep my mouth shut and I don't use real names, but I'm watching how

01:02:17.330 --> 01:02:18.410
they make a determination.

01:02:18.410 --> 01:02:21.770
So I followed them around for a couple of weeks, these two women.

01:02:22.230 --> 01:02:27.350
And then we wrote this large project about it.

01:02:27.490 --> 01:02:33.290
And we called the piece Judgment Calls because for two reasons, right?

01:02:33.450 --> 01:02:38.190
It's a judgment call of the individual social worker and they're very human

01:02:38.190 --> 01:02:42.810
and humans are inconsistent and there's subjectivity here. And also,

01:02:43.050 --> 01:02:45.990
hello, we're judgment knocking on your door.

01:02:46.190 --> 01:02:50.450
We're paying a call to you. We are the state and we are judging you.

01:02:50.570 --> 01:02:56.430
When I realized, you know, I saw that pretty early and was sort of questioned

01:02:56.430 --> 01:03:00.210
that, somewhat uncomfortable with this sort of aspect of judgment.

01:03:00.850 --> 01:03:06.570
And then getting deeper, realizing how human it is. And so then how...

01:03:07.643 --> 01:03:12.603
Vulnerable to mistakes, subjectivity, inconsistency, all of it,

01:03:12.723 --> 01:03:15.463
because it's humans making the call. It's not a, you know.

01:03:15.983 --> 01:03:20.123
That is when I first realized how, I don't know what we call it,

01:03:20.203 --> 01:03:26.103
sketchy, how fallible the system could be, how fallible.

01:03:26.283 --> 01:03:32.503
And then, again, doing maybe a little bit of reporting on what happens to an

01:03:32.503 --> 01:03:34.923
18-year-old when they leave care.

01:03:34.923 --> 01:03:41.263
I was aware that it was Not great, but not until I was sitting in court did

01:03:41.263 --> 01:03:43.943
it kind of all come together and I realized, oh,

01:03:44.403 --> 01:03:50.683
wow, this is a huge machine powering other, even bigger machines.

01:03:51.863 --> 01:03:59.103
So one of the things that have caught headlines has been the states saying that

01:03:59.103 --> 01:04:02.263
they've lost track of children in the foster care system.

01:04:02.263 --> 01:04:08.403
And so in reading your book, considering the number of kids that run,

01:04:08.703 --> 01:04:14.823
is that the main contributor why states lose track of kids?

01:04:15.283 --> 01:04:20.843
Because the minute they do a census or whatever, that child or a number of children

01:04:20.843 --> 01:04:24.263
may have run away from their foster home situations.

01:04:25.603 --> 01:04:28.863
Running is a major reason. Yeah.

01:04:29.803 --> 01:04:35.603
Let me just think here. Yeah. I would say running from placement is a major

01:04:35.603 --> 01:04:41.043
reason. The other half of that is one thing that most people don't realize.

01:04:41.223 --> 01:04:45.963
When a kid runs, their bed, they can't come back.

01:04:46.583 --> 01:04:50.263
Marianne, for instance, her last foster home was her favorite.

01:04:50.503 --> 01:04:56.423
She loved that woman. She cared about that foster mom, but she was a compulsive runner.

01:04:56.583 --> 01:05:00.103
She would run all the time, even though she liked that home.

01:05:00.263 --> 01:05:04.743
But that woman could no longer hold Marianne's bed for her. Marianne would want

01:05:04.743 --> 01:05:06.843
to come back, especially when she got hungry.

01:05:07.603 --> 01:05:10.623
She wanted to come back all the time, but her bed had been given away.

01:05:10.743 --> 01:05:13.883
The state can't hold it for her.

01:05:13.983 --> 01:05:18.483
So this woman, Tasha, in the book, you know, would make Marianne a meal,

01:05:18.603 --> 01:05:21.663
but she's like, honey, I got to call a social worker.

01:05:21.803 --> 01:05:24.083
They're going to pick you up. And then Marianne would take off again.

01:05:24.863 --> 01:05:31.063
So the not holding a bed for when kids do want to come back is, you know, a problem.

01:05:32.003 --> 01:05:37.683
Yeah. Then the other thing that you brought up about the judgment, right?

01:05:38.143 --> 01:05:43.643
So 53% of all black youths are

01:05:43.643 --> 01:05:47.883
subject to a child welfare investigation by the time they are 18. Right.

01:05:48.739 --> 01:05:52.739
So the majority of those social workers you were covering, I guess,

01:05:52.899 --> 01:05:57.979
they were knocking on doors and black homes or whatever.

01:05:59.179 --> 01:06:05.679
Not really? Let me think. Definitely some were black homes. We're the majority black.

01:06:06.319 --> 01:06:09.519
Washington is, I was doing this in Washington State.

01:06:09.859 --> 01:06:13.339
Washington State has a very low African-American population.

01:06:13.339 --> 01:06:17.899
So while there were some black families that were part of that circuit I was

01:06:17.899 --> 01:06:21.179
following along on, I don't know that they were the majority.

01:06:22.319 --> 01:06:25.839
But now I'm just saying that that's a national number to 53 percent.

01:06:26.419 --> 01:06:29.159
Yeah, I know. I know. I've been to Seattle a couple of times.

01:06:29.299 --> 01:06:31.899
I know it's not too many of us up there.

01:06:32.079 --> 01:06:42.519
But but, you know, do you think that there is a racial bias to this whole foster care system?

01:06:43.339 --> 01:06:50.199
Well, it's certainly true that Black children are wildly overrepresented in the foster care system.

01:06:50.359 --> 01:06:52.919
They're about 14% of the U.S.

01:06:53.379 --> 01:06:58.379
Youth population. They're almost double that represented in foster care.

01:06:58.519 --> 01:07:02.059
They're roughly a quarter of the kids in foster care are Black.

01:07:02.519 --> 01:07:10.119
So that is like wildly overrepresented as a function of their numbers in the overall population.

01:07:10.939 --> 01:07:17.059
So it is true that, you know, the way the system works, somebody makes a call

01:07:17.059 --> 01:07:20.099
to the state making an allegation of abuse or neglect.

01:07:20.239 --> 01:07:27.899
And by the way, it's neglect that is by far the main reason kids are taken into foster care.

01:07:28.059 --> 01:07:32.339
And neglect can look like a kid showing up in school, you know,

01:07:32.499 --> 01:07:36.499
with the same dirty clothes every day or no food at lunchtime.

01:07:36.499 --> 01:07:40.259
So they're stealing other kids' food, which was the case for Marianne. Yeah.

01:07:40.998 --> 01:07:45.578
Neglect is really difficult sometimes to separate from poverty.

01:07:45.578 --> 01:07:50.678
So a lot of kids are taken into foster care really because of poverty.

01:07:50.918 --> 01:07:56.218
And it is possible that, you know, it is certainly possible that a white social

01:07:56.218 --> 01:07:58.278
worker, and many of them are white,

01:07:58.718 --> 01:08:01.858
could have been looking at a black family, made it, you know,

01:08:01.978 --> 01:08:06.458
in whatever year, made a judgment that, you know, these kids have no food and

01:08:06.458 --> 01:08:07.258
there's no electricity.

01:08:07.258 --> 01:08:13.078
We got to take them when really that family needs help getting food stamps,

01:08:13.278 --> 01:08:16.838
help with their electricity bills, maybe help with stable housing, right?

01:08:16.918 --> 01:08:23.358
We could take far fewer kids into foster care if we used some of the money that

01:08:23.358 --> 01:08:29.278
we're spending on foster care stipends for strangers and put it toward family

01:08:29.278 --> 01:08:30.498
preservation services,

01:08:30.918 --> 01:08:35.878
helping families that are struggling to stabilize, eyes, right?

01:08:36.538 --> 01:08:43.818
So it is also true that, you know, so it is true that more kids who are black tend to be reported.

01:08:44.018 --> 01:08:48.398
And then once you're on the state's radar, a black kid is more likely to be

01:08:48.398 --> 01:08:53.918
taken into foster care than a white kid also on the state's radar. That is a true thing.

01:08:54.538 --> 01:09:02.558
What I found really is this is most of all about class, about poverty.

01:09:02.718 --> 01:09:05.478
There are no middle class kids in foster care. I'll tell you that.

01:09:05.618 --> 01:09:09.758
And there's certainly middle class kids growing up in single parent homes.

01:09:09.918 --> 01:09:13.178
And there are certainly middle class or affluent kids growing up in homes.

01:09:13.838 --> 01:09:20.858
Tons of substance abuse and abuse of all kinds. Only poor kids get taken into foster care.

01:09:21.658 --> 01:09:27.838
Right. Because, you know, a classic example is the Menendez brothers who I think

01:09:27.838 --> 01:09:28.898
they're getting ready to get out.

01:09:29.781 --> 01:09:33.181
A jail now, but they were affluent.

01:09:34.361 --> 01:09:38.061
Clearly abuse going on there. They were not taken away. Yeah, that's right.

01:09:38.801 --> 01:09:41.961
So what was I going to ask you? I was going to ask you something else.

01:09:42.321 --> 01:09:46.481
So hold on. I lost my train of thought just that quick.

01:09:46.981 --> 01:09:50.001
So let me go ahead and ask you this question.

01:09:50.641 --> 01:09:54.761
When you were researching the book, which stats surprised you the most?

01:09:55.281 --> 01:10:00.221
That 20% of those incarcerated nationally are products of the foster care system,

01:10:00.601 --> 01:10:04.761
40% of the children under state guardianship are adolescents,

01:10:05.141 --> 01:10:10.741
or that we spend $31.4 billion on foster care.

01:10:11.221 --> 01:10:17.081
It blew my mind, the first one and the last one.

01:10:17.161 --> 01:10:24.521
It blew my mind that how much money we spend for outcomes that are horrible

01:10:24.521 --> 01:10:28.401
and how long this has been going on.

01:10:28.641 --> 01:10:33.481
This is not some new spike or some recent trend or anything.

01:10:33.641 --> 01:10:35.321
This has been the case forever.

01:10:35.661 --> 01:10:41.501
This is foster care. This has always been this crossover with incarceration

01:10:41.501 --> 01:10:47.801
and that we just go, I mean, if we know about it at all. And I think a lot of people don't know that.

01:10:48.261 --> 01:10:52.581
But there's sort of like the system, kind of like the system knows it.

01:10:53.341 --> 01:10:54.841
Child welfare system knows it.

01:10:55.681 --> 01:10:59.341
Correctional system knows it. And there's just kind of this shrug,

01:10:59.521 --> 01:11:02.261
kind of like, oh, yeah, that blew my mind.

01:11:02.381 --> 01:11:08.581
How much money we spend for outcomes that are horrible, that are causing more

01:11:08.581 --> 01:11:10.381
misery and more expense.

01:11:10.981 --> 01:11:17.781
Secondarily, the thing about 20%, 20 to 25% of state inmates being so-called

01:11:17.781 --> 01:11:19.901
alumni of the foster care system.

01:11:21.265 --> 01:11:24.285
Yes, that blew my mind. And in the book,

01:11:24.925 --> 01:11:28.705
what, you know, one of the main characters in the book is this guy,

01:11:28.945 --> 01:11:34.345
Arthur Longworth, who got a life sentence very shortly out of being sort of

01:11:34.345 --> 01:11:37.085
spat out of foster care and onto the streets.

01:11:37.085 --> 01:11:42.305
And I was corresponding with him, talking with him while he was locked up,

01:11:42.385 --> 01:11:45.365
and he said to me, Claudia,

01:11:45.665 --> 01:11:50.345
they're the most overrepresented demographic in here, foster kids,

01:11:50.525 --> 01:11:55.465
overrepresented, because as a percentage of the population overall, foster youth are small.

01:11:55.465 --> 01:12:00.085
But in prison, they're 20 to 25 percent of the population.

01:12:00.345 --> 01:12:05.825
And everybody around Art Longworth, he was like, oh, I know them all from foster care.

01:12:06.025 --> 01:12:11.185
Everybody around him, he knew growing up in foster care or it's their kids because

01:12:11.185 --> 01:12:17.765
he's seeing generations of men come through who are in some way touched by the foster care system.

01:12:17.765 --> 01:12:24.365
And again, in talking with him, it was sort of another layer of realizing how

01:12:24.365 --> 01:12:26.645
deep this goes and how long it has been.

01:12:27.565 --> 01:12:33.105
Okay. So I kind of got my thoughts together. So one of the things that,

01:12:33.145 --> 01:12:38.685
you know, we always dealt with was the school to prison pipeline, right?

01:12:38.685 --> 01:12:45.125
And the thing that blew my mind when I was a state legislator was that we always

01:12:45.125 --> 01:12:50.685
would make these projections 10 years out about how many prison beds we needed.

01:12:50.965 --> 01:12:56.105
And that was based on how many kids were reading at a third grade level. Right.

01:12:56.925 --> 01:13:03.945
Would you say that the foster care system is a more accurate predictor of who's

01:13:03.945 --> 01:13:09.045
going to be incarcerated compared to not being able to read at a third grade level?

01:13:09.325 --> 01:13:15.045
That's an interesting question. Quite possibly. I would say the foster care system is a very,

01:13:15.325 --> 01:13:21.825
very, very strong predictor of future incarceration and probably more than who's

01:13:21.825 --> 01:13:25.445
reading, who's able to read at grade level when they are in third grade.

01:13:26.105 --> 01:13:32.305
Yeah. All right. So I try to, you know, I know you're not an elected official and all that.

01:13:32.525 --> 01:13:40.545
And but being a former one myself, I try to, you know, when I talk to people

01:13:40.545 --> 01:13:46.405
about issues, get their thoughts on how can we fix this?

01:13:46.585 --> 01:13:50.505
How can government do something? So if you were in a position,

01:13:50.505 --> 01:13:54.945
either as a lobbyist or as elected official, what steps would you take public

01:13:54.945 --> 01:13:59.165
policy wise to address these concerns? I appreciate that question.

01:14:00.165 --> 01:14:02.105
The first thing is to...

01:14:03.585 --> 01:14:07.185
Shrink the number of kids going into foster care. The first thing is to make

01:14:07.185 --> 01:14:14.445
sure that the kids in foster care really cannot be safe at home.

01:14:14.545 --> 01:14:20.805
And the second thing is to put more resources seriously and thoughtfully toward

01:14:20.805 --> 01:14:24.345
family stabilization so that more kids can be safe at home.

01:14:24.445 --> 01:14:29.325
But for those who are in foster care itself, I really think it's imperative

01:14:29.325 --> 01:14:35.965
to to reconceive the system so that it encourages bonds and attachment,

01:14:36.245 --> 01:14:38.685
just like we were talking about at the beginning of this conversation.

01:14:38.965 --> 01:14:42.685
Foster care, as you know, is really a holding system.

01:14:42.845 --> 01:14:49.265
It is not a healing system, even though all of us and anybody in the field,

01:14:49.305 --> 01:14:53.785
and there's no debate, every kid comes into that system having endured some

01:14:53.785 --> 01:14:55.465
kind of trauma, some kind.

01:14:55.465 --> 01:14:58.445
Doesn't mean that they were beaten by their parents.

01:14:58.905 --> 01:15:04.785
Some were, but that's not what it means. The being brought into the system itself

01:15:04.785 --> 01:15:06.725
is a trauma. So you're there.

01:15:07.045 --> 01:15:11.565
Okay. But foster care is not aimed to be a healing system.

01:15:11.565 --> 01:15:18.345
If we shrank it, right-sized it, and then could retool it to be really focused

01:15:18.345 --> 01:15:22.945
on healing, which means encouraging that connection, encouraging bonds,

01:15:23.205 --> 01:15:29.965
ongoing bonds between a young person and a trusting, trustworthy adult,

01:15:29.965 --> 01:15:34.785
I think that could mitigate the worst harms.

01:15:36.005 --> 01:15:41.185
And there are ways that this is happening, like kinship care is sort of a leading edge now.

01:15:41.305 --> 01:15:45.625
And that is a thing where, you know, traditionally, the foster care system,

01:15:45.845 --> 01:15:50.285
if it was removing a child from a home, it deemed to be dysfunctional or like

01:15:50.285 --> 01:15:55.845
wracked with drug addiction or something, the idea was, oh, let's obliterate

01:15:55.845 --> 01:15:59.185
that whole world from the consciousness of this kid.

01:15:59.345 --> 01:16:05.605
Let's X out that past. So we're not going to give the kid to an aunt or an uncle

01:16:05.605 --> 01:16:09.925
or some relative because they're close to the original biological family.

01:16:09.925 --> 01:16:14.645
We're trying to obliterate that past, which is just not, this is not how human

01:16:14.645 --> 01:16:22.445
brains work. That early connection from birth, biologically predestined, is there.

01:16:22.685 --> 01:16:28.145
It is there. And not acknowledging that or working with that,

01:16:28.305 --> 01:16:34.625
if the system were to work with brain science more, I think it would be a much better system.

01:16:35.480 --> 01:16:39.420
Yeah, that was something that we were dealing with in the legislature.

01:16:39.700 --> 01:16:46.000
One of the ideas we were pushing was that, you know, that grandparents would

01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:48.820
play a role in taking in these children.

01:16:48.900 --> 01:16:54.600
And but we would pay them like foster parents. Yes. So that way.

01:16:55.080 --> 01:17:00.200
Finally. Yeah. And that was like I said, I was in 20, 20 some years ago.

01:17:00.460 --> 01:17:05.040
Right. And so go ahead. Sorry. Well, the thing is that, you know,

01:17:05.120 --> 01:17:09.120
grandparents have always been like to take in the kids.

01:17:09.280 --> 01:17:16.740
But, you know, up until very recently, they're draining their retirement savings to parent children.

01:17:16.960 --> 01:17:22.520
They never anticipated parenting when they're 75 years old because the state wouldn't support them.

01:17:22.520 --> 01:17:26.880
The state wouldn't give the same stipends that they give to strangers to a foster

01:17:26.880 --> 01:17:32.420
parent who is acting to us to a grandparent who is acting the way a foster parent would.

01:17:32.640 --> 01:17:37.700
Now there is increasing support for what they call kinship care.

01:17:37.900 --> 01:17:42.000
And it's that it's exactly that it's giving state support to a relative.

01:17:42.280 --> 01:17:47.280
This is a very it's shocking to me that it is so kind of leading edge and new.

01:17:47.400 --> 01:17:51.560
It seems kind of obvious, but it is a newer effort.

01:17:52.520 --> 01:17:56.100
Well, you know, they talked to some of us.

01:17:56.280 --> 01:17:58.760
We could have kind of told them that from Jump Street. I mean,

01:17:59.200 --> 01:18:03.000
the Bernie Mac show is a classic example of kinship care, right?

01:18:03.320 --> 01:18:08.300
It was like he took in his sister's kids, you know, and of course,

01:18:08.500 --> 01:18:10.300
being a comedian, it was funny about it.

01:18:10.400 --> 01:18:14.660
But that was a real life thing. And that's a thing that in our community that

01:18:14.660 --> 01:18:22.420
we've kind of done so we could avoid having our relatives in the system, right? Yeah.

01:18:22.660 --> 01:18:28.020
And just to get public policy to just pick up on that. It's always fascinating

01:18:28.020 --> 01:18:33.580
how the simple solutions take the longest when you try to incorporate government in them.

01:18:34.670 --> 01:18:40.510
The other thing I would, you know, is the power of social workers, right?

01:18:40.750 --> 01:18:44.910
I've had a number of social workers on a podcast and they always say they changed the world.

01:18:45.530 --> 01:18:51.630
And one of the things, one of the stories that I validate that statement,

01:18:51.890 --> 01:18:56.070
there was a young man, I had put him into alternative school in Jackson.

01:18:57.250 --> 01:19:00.130
And social worker you know

01:19:00.130 --> 01:19:02.870
was she told me this story because they were

01:19:02.870 --> 01:19:05.870
trying to get this test approved to use on kids

01:19:05.870 --> 01:19:10.410
statewide and i think it's the princeton test or wherever it was at the time

01:19:10.410 --> 01:19:17.630
anyway so she she decided to because he was being disruptive i mean he was talking

01:19:17.630 --> 01:19:21.450
back to the teachers cussing them out all that kind of stuff so she was trying

01:19:21.450 --> 01:19:25.490
to figure out what was going on with this kid, because he was like about maybe 11 or 12,

01:19:25.710 --> 01:19:30.770
why he challenged authority like that. So she volunteered to take him home one day.

01:19:31.470 --> 01:19:35.510
And when he got there, his mom was just coming in.

01:19:35.650 --> 01:19:39.490
I mean, when she was just coming in, like she had been out the night before,

01:19:39.490 --> 01:19:44.270
she was on drugs, and he was out there dealing.

01:19:44.950 --> 01:19:50.790
So when he got there, he's cussing the mama out for just now showing back up at the house.

01:19:51.150 --> 01:19:55.430
He had a couple of younger siblings, but he was running a household.

01:19:55.590 --> 01:20:01.410
So he was the adult and he was bringing in income because he was out there selling drugs, you know.

01:20:01.810 --> 01:20:05.950
And so he he kind of felt like when the teachers talked to him,

01:20:06.050 --> 01:20:11.210
it was like his mindset was I'm an adult just like you. You can't talk to me that way.

01:20:11.570 --> 01:20:16.490
And so, you know, he was able to get some assistance. The mom got in rehab and all that stuff.

01:20:16.770 --> 01:20:21.750
That was because that was a social worker that took the extra step.

01:20:22.010 --> 01:20:26.130
She didn't really have the finances or really the authority to do what she did,

01:20:26.130 --> 01:20:32.930
but because she took that chance, he was able to get his life right.

01:20:33.590 --> 01:20:37.430
I mean, he's not going to run for president of the United States or anything,

01:20:37.690 --> 01:20:41.350
but he's not going to jail either, right?

01:20:41.530 --> 01:20:44.250
He's going to live a normal life.

01:20:44.510 --> 01:20:48.910
So just talk about real quick to close out,

01:20:48.910 --> 01:20:57.230
how important it is to have dedicated social workers and people that work at

01:20:57.230 --> 01:21:03.550
child services in whatever title they call that department in the respective states,

01:21:03.830 --> 01:21:06.090
child welfare, we'll just say it like that,

01:21:06.430 --> 01:21:10.710
how important it is to have dedicated people in those positions.

01:21:11.886 --> 01:21:17.026
Well, as you know, it's really important, and there's incredibly high turnover.

01:21:17.366 --> 01:21:22.346
The thing with social workers is, you know, like really high turnover.

01:21:22.606 --> 01:21:29.366
So often, social worker is young, overburdened, inexperienced, very often.

01:21:29.746 --> 01:21:35.966
I mean, it is true that a seasoned, dedicated social worker can change the world,

01:21:36.026 --> 01:21:39.426
can make a lifetime difference in a young person.

01:21:39.426 --> 01:21:44.586
I think what you're talking about is something in that story is something I

01:21:44.586 --> 01:21:50.506
was, in a way, trying to do through the book is look closer, go closer.

01:21:50.766 --> 01:21:55.146
You know, that's what the social worker did with this kid who was cussing out all the teachers.

01:21:55.326 --> 01:22:00.966
Like instead of being angry, angered by the kid or even afraid of the kid or

01:22:00.966 --> 01:22:05.386
writing the kid off as a lost cause, irredeemable, already a drug dealer,

01:22:05.666 --> 01:22:09.526
you know, like all this is standard stuff. It could easily happen.

01:22:09.666 --> 01:22:15.986
That social worker you're describing didn't do that and took the extra step.

01:22:16.206 --> 01:22:22.266
It is time. It is risk, potentially legal risk. It is all kinds of risk. Right.

01:22:22.766 --> 01:22:28.586
But that social worker looked closer, got a deeper understanding of what is

01:22:28.586 --> 01:22:30.406
going on in that kid's head.

01:22:30.946 --> 01:22:36.586
Why is that kid acting that way? And that is what I was trying to do with the book. Look closer.

01:22:36.946 --> 01:22:44.046
Try to understand what is really happening here deeper than the sort of first level behavior.

01:22:44.706 --> 01:22:49.386
Well, Claudia Rowe, I'm glad that you wrote this book. I'm glad that you are

01:22:49.386 --> 01:22:51.846
challenging Americans to look deeper.

01:22:52.806 --> 01:22:56.966
There is a lot of stuff going on in this country. And, you know,

01:22:57.166 --> 01:23:00.586
it'll be altruistic to think that we can solve all of them,

01:23:00.726 --> 01:23:09.606
but it's good to be able to have people on the podcast to explain a particular

01:23:09.606 --> 01:23:15.666
situation and at least offer, if not a complete solution,

01:23:15.846 --> 01:23:20.086
at least enough insight so people can make an informed decision.

01:23:20.086 --> 01:23:23.546
And that's the best that we can ask for of anybody.

01:23:23.826 --> 01:23:27.286
So I just want to thank you for writing the book.

01:23:27.466 --> 01:23:32.266
And then as humbly as I can, I thank you for taking the time out to come on

01:23:32.266 --> 01:23:34.386
the podcast and talk about the book.

01:23:34.486 --> 01:23:37.986
So if people want to get the book, people want to reach out to you,

01:23:38.146 --> 01:23:40.406
how can they do that? The book is everywhere.

01:23:40.686 --> 01:23:44.186
So Wards of the State, The Long Shadow of American Foster Care.

01:23:44.286 --> 01:23:49.126
You can get it on Amazon or BarnesandNoble.com or your local bookstore or bookshop.org.

01:23:49.126 --> 01:23:53.826
If they want to find me, I'm on Twitter or XX on LinkedIn.

01:23:54.546 --> 01:24:00.026
You can find me on Facebook. You could go to my website, which is ClaudiaRoadJournalist.com.

01:24:00.426 --> 01:24:04.506
I'm easy to find. All right, Claudia. Well, again, thank you for coming on.

01:24:04.626 --> 01:24:06.286
I greatly appreciate it. Having me.

01:24:06.606 --> 01:24:08.806
All right, guys, and we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:24:09.040 --> 01:24:19.600
Music.

01:24:21.168 --> 01:24:27.268
All right, and we are back. So I want to thank Cassie Owens and Claudia Rowe for coming on.

01:24:27.848 --> 01:24:31.788
I greatly appreciate the work that those ladies are doing.

01:24:32.828 --> 01:24:39.708
Cassie and the cohort, she's just representing a group of people who took 18

01:24:39.708 --> 01:24:41.908
months, if you heard in the interview.

01:24:42.188 --> 01:24:49.348
They really took some time to try to develop a code of ethics for journalism.

01:24:51.568 --> 01:24:56.748
That if it works in Philadelphia, hopefully it'll work everywhere else.

01:24:56.968 --> 01:25:00.368
I think it's very, very symbolic that it's Philadelphia,

01:25:01.728 --> 01:25:04.908
home of the Declaration of Independence, home of the Constitution,

01:25:05.448 --> 01:25:09.868
where the First Amendment was written about freedom of the press,

01:25:10.648 --> 01:25:17.648
that a group of media experts, journalists, got together and say,

01:25:17.648 --> 01:25:23.388
hey, look, we have a freedom, but we need to be responsible with it.

01:25:24.368 --> 01:25:31.068
And I wish her much success in that, and I hope that it's emulated throughout

01:25:31.068 --> 01:25:33.148
the country, especially in this time.

01:25:33.688 --> 01:25:39.268
You know, we know that there will be a group of folks that think that they don't

01:25:39.268 --> 01:25:43.868
have to do that or won't honor that because they have an agenda.

01:25:44.588 --> 01:25:51.748
But, you know, I hope that people get back to that and not be afraid of who's

01:25:51.748 --> 01:25:55.468
president or whatever, right?

01:25:56.028 --> 01:26:02.988
That you just state the facts. We listen to the news to get the real story.

01:26:03.168 --> 01:26:06.228
And we don't need it skewed one way or the other.

01:26:06.228 --> 01:26:12.588
We just need the facts because we should be intelligent enough to decipher the

01:26:12.588 --> 01:26:18.468
information and and make an intelligent decision based on that. Right.

01:26:19.268 --> 01:26:25.028
So, you know, good luck, Miss Cassie and your friends and getting that done.

01:26:25.028 --> 01:26:31.228
And then for Claudia Rowe, one of the things I asked her off air was there was

01:26:31.228 --> 01:26:32.808
going to be a follow up to it or not.

01:26:32.988 --> 01:26:36.888
And she didn't necessarily commit to that, but she definitely committed to writing

01:26:36.888 --> 01:26:38.648
some, you know, some more books.

01:26:40.748 --> 01:26:43.148
But I really hope that war to the state.

01:26:45.348 --> 01:26:50.968
Has the impact that she wants, that it really, really opens up a discussion

01:26:50.968 --> 01:26:57.548
and really leads to us addressing this issue because we're talking about the welfare of children.

01:26:59.108 --> 01:27:05.708
And I know with my work in juvenile justice and my work in, you know,

01:27:05.908 --> 01:27:07.928
with Mississippi Families for Kids,

01:27:09.108 --> 01:27:16.408
you don't, the object was to try to minimize how many children have to go into foster care.

01:27:17.488 --> 01:27:23.448
And just on the general principle that you want every child to be with a family, right?

01:27:23.808 --> 01:27:27.928
You don't want to see these children become wards of the state.

01:27:28.108 --> 01:27:36.708
You don't want these children to grow up to be adults that are not productive.

01:27:36.708 --> 01:27:40.648
And when I say not productive, meaning that they're incarcerated, right? Right.

01:27:41.848 --> 01:27:45.328
Especially our black children. So,

01:27:45.588 --> 01:27:52.288
you know, it, you know, it was always a big deal when a child got adopted and

01:27:52.288 --> 01:27:57.668
and that the adopted parents stayed with it. right? Because that's what happens.

01:27:58.248 --> 01:28:02.988
A lot of foster kids, they've been adopted, but then for some reason,

01:28:03.548 --> 01:28:08.248
the adoptive parents can't handle that, or it was more than what they thought,

01:28:08.248 --> 01:28:13.808
and then those kids get thrown into the foster care system, and then a lot of them age out.

01:28:14.148 --> 01:28:21.128
You know, it's tough for a child, once they get to the age of 12 or 13,

01:28:21.248 --> 01:28:25.088
to get adopted. It doesn't matter what ethnicity they are. It's just hard.

01:28:26.928 --> 01:28:30.248
So, you know, I appreciate Ms.

01:28:30.328 --> 01:28:33.568
Claudia for doing that. And I really hope that y'all get that book,

01:28:33.788 --> 01:28:36.048
War to the State, and read it.

01:28:36.248 --> 01:28:42.948
And maybe it'll encourage some of y'all to push for some reforms in your respective states.

01:28:44.457 --> 01:28:49.137
Wherever you're listening to this podcast, right? Because again,

01:28:49.417 --> 01:28:51.837
public policy is about the public.

01:28:52.097 --> 01:28:54.037
It's about human beings.

01:28:54.657 --> 01:28:59.977
And the whole motivation of government should be to do no harm,

01:29:00.197 --> 01:29:06.957
but to, and also to advance a society, not just regulate it,

01:29:07.197 --> 01:29:09.237
but to advance it, right?

01:29:09.737 --> 01:29:19.677
So anyway, you heard me go into my, You know, I just, it's really troubling

01:29:19.677 --> 01:29:24.277
for me to sit and watch all this stuff that's going on.

01:29:25.577 --> 01:29:30.897
You've heard me say it on the podcast numbers of times. I'll say it to the guests.

01:29:30.937 --> 01:29:32.497
I'll say it to my friends, whatever.

01:29:33.517 --> 01:29:38.517
What I do is more than a service for you all. It's therapy for me.

01:29:41.677 --> 01:29:48.957
Because if I did not have this outlet, I don't know what I could do to keep

01:29:48.957 --> 01:29:54.637
my sanity, to keep my hope, to keep my focus for a better day in this nation.

01:29:55.697 --> 01:30:02.457
And I'm really, really tired of grievance driving the political discussion.

01:30:03.317 --> 01:30:08.817
And people might say, Well, you know, when you complain about police brutality,

01:30:08.857 --> 01:30:12.677
you complain about this or that, that's a grievance.

01:30:13.857 --> 01:30:18.197
Grievance is more about envy than it is about activism.

01:30:19.620 --> 01:30:25.680
Right. You know, it's more about being covetous, which the Ten Commandments

01:30:25.680 --> 01:30:29.520
that all these folks want to put up on walls, it's clearly in there that we

01:30:29.520 --> 01:30:34.300
should not be coveted stuff. That made the list. That was ending up in the 10.

01:30:36.860 --> 01:30:41.420
But it seems like that's the most important thing,

01:30:41.620 --> 01:30:48.380
whether it's a congresswoman who wants to have so much attention drawn to her

01:30:48.380 --> 01:30:55.140
to validate her existence as an elected official or,

01:30:55.140 --> 01:30:57.420
you know,

01:30:57.680 --> 01:31:00.580
wearing MAGA hats.

01:31:02.200 --> 01:31:06.580
Marching in patriot parades. I mean, you know, it's just all of that is being

01:31:06.580 --> 01:31:12.120
covetous because you think somebody, you have a mindset that somebody is taking

01:31:12.120 --> 01:31:13.380
something away from you.

01:31:13.580 --> 01:31:19.000
Me having rights does not take away you having rights, right?

01:31:19.320 --> 01:31:21.180
It just means that we're all covered.

01:31:21.880 --> 01:31:30.020
There are some of us that will take advantage of those rights more than others in a good way, you know.

01:31:31.180 --> 01:31:36.080
But it doesn't mean that you don't have the rights. It just means that somebody

01:31:36.080 --> 01:31:42.640
was gifted in a particular area to benefit from a more, you know, that's okay.

01:31:45.400 --> 01:31:52.340
But we can't get to the, we should not ever get to the point and we have in

01:31:52.340 --> 01:31:56.200
our history and we seem like we're hell bent on doing it again,

01:31:57.220 --> 01:32:03.720
that in order for me to have rights, I got to destroy or trample on yours. That's crazy.

01:32:05.040 --> 01:32:09.820
That's selfish. That's covetous. That's grievance, right?

01:32:10.240 --> 01:32:15.580
And politics should not be driven by that. Politics should be driven on statesmanship,

01:32:16.480 --> 01:32:22.500
on making sure that everybody can benefit from something, whether it's mandating

01:32:22.500 --> 01:32:24.460
that you wear a life jacket on a boat,

01:32:26.480 --> 01:32:31.500
or, you know, making sure that everyone has access to health care, right?

01:32:32.120 --> 01:32:37.820
It should be about improving the general welfare while respecting individual liberties.

01:32:39.160 --> 01:32:43.300
That's the balance that we're supposed to have. We're not supposed to be skewed

01:32:43.300 --> 01:32:48.700
one way or the other where we disregard liberty just so we can have some order, right?

01:32:49.340 --> 01:32:54.300
Or we get so caught up in our individual liberty that we don't care about the rest of society.

01:32:55.836 --> 01:32:59.216
A balance. That's why they're all in the same paragraph.

01:33:00.036 --> 01:33:04.676
That's what we call the preamble of the Constitution. It's there for a reason, right?

01:33:05.136 --> 01:33:09.516
And so it shouldn't matter how you look. It shouldn't matter who you love.

01:33:09.656 --> 01:33:11.996
It shouldn't matter what zip codes you come from.

01:33:12.576 --> 01:33:16.216
If you are in the United States of America, that Constitution,

01:33:16.536 --> 01:33:21.856
and I want to be very clear, if you are in the United States of America.

01:33:22.036 --> 01:33:23.416
Notice I'm not saying citizen.

01:33:23.796 --> 01:33:27.596
If you are president of the United States of America, you should be protected

01:33:27.596 --> 01:33:31.036
by that constitution because the constitution says you are.

01:33:31.576 --> 01:33:37.596
If you are visiting this nation, whether it's on a temporary basis,

01:33:37.596 --> 01:33:40.616
like a vacation, or an extended basis,

01:33:41.396 --> 01:33:47.216
like you're a student, or you're working here, or if your long-term goal is to become a citizen.

01:33:48.116 --> 01:33:50.276
Right? You're supposed to be protected.

01:33:51.116 --> 01:33:55.356
So if something goes down, you're accused of something, you're supposed to have

01:33:55.356 --> 01:33:59.176
the same process as those of us who were born here.

01:33:59.676 --> 01:34:02.636
End of discussion. It's written in the document.

01:34:02.816 --> 01:34:08.316
There's no ambiguity to it. I don't care how Fox News, AON, Newsmax,

01:34:08.736 --> 01:34:13.476
any of them try to spin it. I don't care what the president says.

01:34:13.596 --> 01:34:16.916
I don't care what Christine Noem says. I don't care what Marco Rubio says.

01:34:17.036 --> 01:34:18.836
The document is the document.

01:34:19.016 --> 01:34:25.156
And since you do not have a consensus to amend the Constitution or write a new

01:34:25.156 --> 01:34:29.576
one, right, then that's the governing document.

01:34:29.616 --> 01:34:32.216
And it's very clear what it says.

01:34:33.036 --> 01:34:37.196
And I would go so far as to say that if you are a lawyer and you don't understand

01:34:37.196 --> 01:34:40.476
that, maybe you don't need to be practicing law in this country.

01:34:41.096 --> 01:34:45.996
Maybe you need to go to a country where you have a dictator and they allow you to practice law.

01:34:47.347 --> 01:34:52.847
Know. Not too many of those options out there, but I suggest you go explore that.

01:34:53.027 --> 01:34:57.327
Because in this country, if you don't understand the Constitution and what it

01:34:57.327 --> 01:35:01.127
actually says, I don't think you should be practicing law in this country.

01:35:02.547 --> 01:35:07.327
Whether that's by disbarment or you voluntarily retire, I don't know.

01:35:07.547 --> 01:35:09.987
But you shouldn't be practicing law.

01:35:10.387 --> 01:35:16.587
You should not be making public policy. right now that's subjective to the voters

01:35:16.587 --> 01:35:21.507
you might can fool some people and you know,

01:35:22.387 --> 01:35:25.207
get elected to a position or whatever based on

01:35:25.207 --> 01:35:31.107
a lie but i really believe that if you don't have a grasp of the constitution

01:35:31.107 --> 01:35:37.647
the city ordinance where you live the u.s constitution state whatever if you

01:35:37.647 --> 01:35:41.727
don't understand that you don't need to be involved in public policy because

01:35:41.727 --> 01:35:44.887
everything that you do is based on those documents.

01:35:45.847 --> 01:35:53.387
Everything. Now, if you can get two-thirds of Congress to go with an idea and

01:35:53.387 --> 01:35:56.987
get an amendment to the Constitution, knock yourself out.

01:35:57.127 --> 01:35:59.827
But until then, the law is the law.

01:36:00.207 --> 01:36:04.467
And if you can't interpret the law that way, you sure as hell should not be

01:36:04.467 --> 01:36:09.287
a judge, let alone a lawyer, right? It's pretty clear.

01:36:10.867 --> 01:36:16.407
Now, there is some gray area, and there's a reason why, because some people

01:36:16.407 --> 01:36:18.267
don't quite understand language.

01:36:18.887 --> 01:36:21.327
So that's why you go to court, to settle things.

01:36:22.207 --> 01:36:26.447
But it's got to be in the context of the Constitution.

01:36:27.267 --> 01:36:34.427
You know, if you get in a congressional hearing and a congressperson asks you, what is habeas corpus?

01:36:35.187 --> 01:36:41.147
And you say something bizarre like, oh, it gives the president the right to do what he wants to.

01:36:41.507 --> 01:36:45.047
You don't need to be in that position. How did you even get there?

01:36:45.447 --> 01:36:49.087
How did you serve in Congress? How did you become a governor of a state,

01:36:49.207 --> 01:36:52.907
let alone a cabinet official? And you didn't understand that concept. Right.

01:36:53.807 --> 01:36:57.967
I mean, there's just some things that you have to finesse.

01:36:58.127 --> 01:37:04.527
If you are that scared of the person you work for, that you give a BS answer

01:37:04.527 --> 01:37:09.587
to a congressperson, you don't need that job. You don't need that stress.

01:37:10.167 --> 01:37:13.467
Right. You're not man or woman enough to be in that position,

01:37:13.467 --> 01:37:17.047
because just because you're in the president's cabinet don't mean you don't

01:37:17.047 --> 01:37:18.427
have the ability to say no.

01:37:18.947 --> 01:37:21.607
You don't have the ability to say, Mr. President, it's a bad idea.

01:37:22.287 --> 01:37:29.007
I mean, Abraham Lincoln famously picked people that were rivals of his because

01:37:29.007 --> 01:37:34.147
he knew that they were going to be objective in the decisions that he made and

01:37:34.147 --> 01:37:35.847
they were going to, you know,

01:37:35.987 --> 01:37:39.787
and they were going to respond accordingly to that. And he could weigh that in.

01:37:41.415 --> 01:37:45.335
I just, I don't, I don't understand. Right.

01:37:45.455 --> 01:37:50.155
But that's, that's about courage and character and all that stuff.

01:37:50.355 --> 01:37:53.995
And it's pretty clear that most of the people that are in positions now that

01:37:53.995 --> 01:38:00.575
we have to cover and respect don't have those two C's, character and courage. They don't have that.

01:38:01.555 --> 01:38:08.155
So we got to deal with that and navigate around that until we, the electorate, fix it.

01:38:08.755 --> 01:38:12.215
If we're given an opportunity to fix it. Right.

01:38:12.895 --> 01:38:21.875
But the other thing I wanted to touch on that is another C and that's flat out corruption. Right.

01:38:22.855 --> 01:38:29.455
So there was one story that bothered me. You know, the Elon Musk thing.

01:38:30.735 --> 01:38:35.695
It is what it is. He's gone back to Tesla. He's trying to save his good name

01:38:35.695 --> 01:38:36.995
and the company's good name.

01:38:37.595 --> 01:38:43.355
I don't know if he can effectively do that, but, you know, as long as he's not

01:38:43.355 --> 01:38:49.235
dabbling in government stuff, maybe he can build some credibility back for that,

01:38:49.335 --> 01:38:50.475
that particular product.

01:38:51.775 --> 01:38:57.715
And, you know, he won't have that margin call where he'll lose X.

01:38:58.555 --> 01:39:01.515
Although some people are like, let him lose it all. Right.

01:39:02.875 --> 01:39:11.815
I just wanted, I'm just glad he's out of trying to govern with no election mandate for him to do it.

01:39:13.292 --> 01:39:20.992
And I want him to be a lesson so that people understand that government is not a business.

01:39:21.472 --> 01:39:25.172
It is government. It's a whole different concept.

01:39:25.652 --> 01:39:31.052
We're not about making a product. We're about taking care of the citizens of

01:39:31.052 --> 01:39:34.032
this country, providing a service for them,

01:39:34.512 --> 01:39:41.092
representing their best interest, and representing the nation's interest as a whole to the world.

01:39:41.092 --> 01:39:45.732
That's different than making a car and trying to sell it.

01:39:46.032 --> 01:39:51.372
That's different than creating a social media platform and trying to make a profit.

01:39:52.032 --> 01:39:58.712
It's different. So I hope that people understand and draw that as the lesson

01:39:58.712 --> 01:40:04.292
that you can't do what you do in private business in the government.

01:40:04.852 --> 01:40:11.132
We've had people talk their trash, and they've dibbled and dabbled in trying to change it that way.

01:40:11.312 --> 01:40:16.412
But this should be the clear indication that you can't run government like a business.

01:40:16.892 --> 01:40:19.332
But that's not the main thing I want to talk about. I want to talk about,

01:40:19.612 --> 01:40:21.712
and I'm not going to get into his name.

01:40:22.932 --> 01:40:27.972
Y'all can Google the guy's name and all that stuff. But it kind of hit home

01:40:27.972 --> 01:40:31.272
because this guy was in law enforcement. He was a sheriff.

01:40:32.312 --> 01:40:38.312
And when he was running for re-election, he was offering reserve officer positions

01:40:38.312 --> 01:40:44.132
to people that gave $75,000 or whatever, right, to his campaign.

01:40:44.972 --> 01:40:50.792
You can't do that, right? You know, you're just going to give people a badge

01:40:50.792 --> 01:40:53.912
because they gave you some money to run for office. You can't do that.

01:40:54.312 --> 01:40:59.012
There's certain criteria, even for a reserve officer, that you have to have.

01:40:59.132 --> 01:41:00.812
That varies from state to state.

01:41:01.272 --> 01:41:04.652
And you can make people honorary folks, right?

01:41:04.832 --> 01:41:08.792
You can give them a little nice little plaque and whatever, but,

01:41:08.792 --> 01:41:11.672
you know, to make them...

01:41:13.077 --> 01:41:17.717
Reserve officer where they actually got a badge and, you know,

01:41:17.837 --> 01:41:19.957
trying to get out of tickets and all that kind of stuff.

01:41:21.657 --> 01:41:25.457
No, you got to earn that. You got to match the criteria, dude.

01:41:25.537 --> 01:41:28.677
You can't just write a check and get that, right?

01:41:29.097 --> 01:41:33.937
But that kind of ties in with Elon Musk because he wrote a check and Donald

01:41:33.937 --> 01:41:37.957
Trump gave him the ability to try to destroy our government, right?

01:41:38.837 --> 01:41:46.997
But yeah, So, you know, this guy went through the process, unlike Mr.

01:41:47.037 --> 01:41:51.697
Garcia and other folks that we've been talking about in the news.

01:41:52.377 --> 01:41:58.397
He actually went through the process. He actually had a trial of his peers and

01:41:58.397 --> 01:42:01.437
he was found guilty. He did that.

01:42:03.217 --> 01:42:06.597
And the day before he was

01:42:06.597 --> 01:42:09.357
supposed to set foot in the jail because of

01:42:09.357 --> 01:42:12.597
course you know you can appeal sentencing and

01:42:12.597 --> 01:42:18.097
all that stuff so that delays your time going in which which makes it funny

01:42:18.097 --> 01:42:22.977
you know harold ludnick i think that's the guy's name is the commerce secretary

01:42:22.977 --> 01:42:28.637
said well people complain about missing their social security check after the

01:42:28.637 --> 01:42:30.797
first month and they're probably fraudsters.

01:42:31.057 --> 01:42:37.217
Well, if you appeal a sentencing after you've been convicted of a crime,

01:42:37.537 --> 01:42:42.037
using your logic, then you're probably a criminal, right?

01:42:42.517 --> 01:42:45.077
Like your boss, nonetheless.

01:42:45.617 --> 01:42:52.177
So this guy was about ready to set foot in the jail, and just before he was

01:42:52.177 --> 01:42:55.097
supposed to report to the jail, the president gives him a pardon.

01:42:55.937 --> 01:42:58.037
What does that mean? Hmm.

01:42:58.907 --> 01:43:02.727
What message are you trying to convey, right?

01:43:03.407 --> 01:43:09.347
And how are you strategically using these pardons? What agenda are you trying to send?

01:43:09.767 --> 01:43:12.267
That it's okay to be corrupt?

01:43:13.187 --> 01:43:18.247
That it's okay to get over on people? It's all right to take a bribe?

01:43:18.747 --> 01:43:24.487
It's all right to abuse the privilege of being an enforcer of the law,

01:43:24.647 --> 01:43:28.047
thus for being somebody that's supposed to protect and serve a community?

01:43:28.907 --> 01:43:32.747
It's all right to abuse that privilege. I mean, I'm trying to figure out what

01:43:32.747 --> 01:43:36.307
message are you trying to send by doing that?

01:43:36.707 --> 01:43:39.067
Who are you trying to appease?

01:43:39.507 --> 01:43:42.027
What army are you trying to build up?

01:43:42.747 --> 01:43:48.787
Right? Because I have a good friend who is an older gentleman.

01:43:49.767 --> 01:43:58.407
And, you know, he's very, very wise. And he's always trying to temper my enthusiasm a little bit.

01:43:59.147 --> 01:44:03.707
And he basically, you know, he just admonished me all the time.

01:44:03.867 --> 01:44:08.567
He said, Eric, I just want you to pay attention to January 6th.

01:44:09.567 --> 01:44:14.927
And, you know, I told him, I said, well, you know, if it gets to a certain point,

01:44:15.047 --> 01:44:19.207
history dictates that if it gets to the point like it did in the Civil War,

01:44:19.987 --> 01:44:24.707
it may take five years, it may take 10, but, you know, we'll defeat these people

01:44:24.707 --> 01:44:30.767
If it gets to that point, he says, but it's at that point, you know,

01:44:31.627 --> 01:44:35.307
these people, that was the trial run January 6th.

01:44:35.507 --> 01:44:39.927
He said, there are people, they are waiting, all they're waiting for is the command.

01:44:41.533 --> 01:44:48.233
What they need to do, whether it's martial law, whether it's whatever action

01:44:48.233 --> 01:44:49.313
the president, they ready.

01:44:49.753 --> 01:44:54.253
They were ready at that debate when he said, stand back and stand by, right?

01:44:54.833 --> 01:44:58.613
So just look at all the people that he's pardoning. Look at all the people that

01:44:58.613 --> 01:45:01.233
he's getting out of jail.

01:45:01.733 --> 01:45:04.593
Now, the Larry Hoover thing, that's a whole different deal, right?

01:45:04.593 --> 01:45:10.133
But that's the example of why it would be futile to pardon Derek Chauvin.

01:45:10.913 --> 01:45:15.753
Because Larry Hoover, who some of y'all should know, if not,

01:45:16.013 --> 01:45:19.153
he was the leader of the Gangster Disciples in Chicago.

01:45:19.793 --> 01:45:24.873
And he got hit with federal and state charges over time.

01:45:25.113 --> 01:45:28.593
He was in jail for state charges. He was in for life.

01:45:28.893 --> 01:45:33.193
Then he got hit with federal charges. They literally created a law so they could

01:45:33.193 --> 01:45:36.533
sentence him to more time in the federal level.

01:45:38.653 --> 01:45:43.993
And now he'll, with the pardon, I guess he's not in, he doesn't have to be in

01:45:43.993 --> 01:45:46.673
Supermax in Colorado anymore.

01:45:46.953 --> 01:45:50.773
They can ship him back to Illinois to finish out his sins.

01:45:50.893 --> 01:45:54.313
But he's not going to be pardoned from the convictions in Illinois.

01:45:54.313 --> 01:45:57.893
He'll just, he can get to leave Supermax in Colorado.

01:45:58.453 --> 01:46:02.253
That's all that pardon will do. Same with Derek Chauvin. If you pardon Derek

01:46:02.253 --> 01:46:05.993
Chauvin, well, it just means he doesn't have to do the federal time,

01:46:06.113 --> 01:46:11.253
but he still got to do the state time in Minnesota, right, for killing George Floyd.

01:46:11.553 --> 01:46:18.513
So, yeah, those people, that's not part of the army thing. That's appeasement politics.

01:46:19.433 --> 01:46:24.453
If I pardon Derek Chauvin, I got to pardon Larry Hoover so the black folks won't be mad, right?

01:46:25.253 --> 01:46:31.473
And whatever trouble it may get me in, I was not one of those black people that

01:46:31.473 --> 01:46:33.693
felt Larry Hoover should be pardoned.

01:46:35.024 --> 01:46:37.964
That on the record. I was not one of those people advocating that.

01:46:38.644 --> 01:46:43.664
Whatever defense you want to bring, fine. Same with Jeff Fort, all that. That's cool.

01:46:44.944 --> 01:46:50.264
Yeah, I grew up in Chicago. So Larry Hoover and Jeff Fort were not heroes of mine.

01:46:53.164 --> 01:46:59.984
I had to navigate around their folks so I could go to high school.

01:47:00.424 --> 01:47:06.804
Had to fight gangsta disciples. I had to fight El Rukens just so I could get home from school.

01:47:06.824 --> 01:47:10.324
So I don't have a soft spot for Jeff Ford or Larry Hoover.

01:47:10.824 --> 01:47:15.164
That's me. You can take that up in the comments, whatever. That's fine.

01:47:18.564 --> 01:47:24.684
But, you know, that in his mind, speaking about the president,

01:47:24.964 --> 01:47:29.524
that was his appeasement to black folk because, you know, that he said,

01:47:29.664 --> 01:47:31.064
well, I pardoned Larry Hoover.

01:47:31.244 --> 01:47:35.104
So yeah, I can pardon Derek Chauvin. Same thing, whatever.

01:47:36.244 --> 01:47:46.084
But now this whole, to me, and just listening to the wisdom of my friend,

01:47:46.564 --> 01:47:51.844
seems to me he's trying to make sure that the people that need to fight whenever

01:47:51.844 --> 01:47:54.684
the fight is going to happen,

01:47:55.424 --> 01:48:00.344
whether he's trying to stay in the third term or whether he wants to make sure

01:48:00.344 --> 01:48:05.724
that anybody that's black or brown is out of the country or subjugated or whatever,

01:48:05.864 --> 01:48:09.824
whatever the end game is to maintain white supremacy, whatever.

01:48:10.644 --> 01:48:14.864
I think he's trying to make sure that the army is there. I mean,

01:48:15.464 --> 01:48:18.404
you know, and the people that can finance it, right?

01:48:19.224 --> 01:48:24.864
What else is there other than money? Like the dude with the cryptocurrency that

01:48:24.864 --> 01:48:27.724
had dinner with him at wherever that golf club.

01:48:27.804 --> 01:48:30.244
I think he's got a golf club in Roanoke, Virginia or something.

01:48:32.444 --> 01:48:36.544
You know, that's all about the money game there, about, you know,

01:48:36.604 --> 01:48:40.444
trying to milk the office for as much money as he can. But you know,

01:48:40.644 --> 01:48:44.764
if he's a billionaire, he's back to being a billionaire officially again.

01:48:45.204 --> 01:48:54.024
Okay. So he's going to finance whatever uprising he wants to have. Conflict.

01:48:55.694 --> 01:48:59.374
This may sound like conspiracy theory or conjecture or whatever.

01:49:00.014 --> 01:49:05.934
I just want y'all to pay attention because there is a motive behind what he's doing.

01:49:06.474 --> 01:49:10.314
It doesn't make, you know, it's one thing to give a pardon to somebody,

01:49:10.314 --> 01:49:19.354
you know, who the case was mishandled or the sentencing was too extreme.

01:49:20.134 --> 01:49:21.134
You know what I'm saying?

01:49:22.194 --> 01:49:28.454
Something like that. you know, or they serve their time and they've become productive citizens.

01:49:29.954 --> 01:49:35.074
You know, you take that off their record so they can be more productive citizens, right?

01:49:35.734 --> 01:49:39.314
That's really what a pardon is supposed to be about. It's supposed to be about forgiveness.

01:49:40.174 --> 01:49:43.334
And it's supposed to be earned forgiveness, right?

01:49:43.954 --> 01:49:49.674
You know, because even with Tukey Williams, We weren't saying pardon him.

01:49:49.954 --> 01:49:52.174
We were just saying don't execute him, right?

01:49:53.114 --> 01:49:56.334
Just commute the sentence from death penalty to life.

01:49:57.194 --> 01:50:04.934
We understand he needs to be in jail. We just want him to spend his life there

01:50:04.934 --> 01:50:09.614
because he was doing some good things while he was in that structure.

01:50:10.614 --> 01:50:13.454
Nobody was saying let him out. Well, there might have been a few,

01:50:13.474 --> 01:50:16.694
but I wasn't one of those. I was just like, don't execute him.

01:50:17.434 --> 01:50:20.674
You know, but that's the power of that.

01:50:21.434 --> 01:50:26.514
Not to forgive a guy who's been trained in law enforcement.

01:50:27.174 --> 01:50:33.054
So he knows how to use a gun and reward him for bribing people so he could be

01:50:33.054 --> 01:50:36.894
the sheriff of a particular county.

01:50:37.054 --> 01:50:39.574
That's that's not what that is for.

01:50:41.114 --> 01:50:45.674
And at least let him sit in the jail for a week before you part.

01:50:45.674 --> 01:50:49.334
Don't don't, you know, he's about ready to walk in. It's like,

01:50:49.434 --> 01:50:50.934
oh, no, you've been pardoned. You can turn around.

01:50:51.294 --> 01:50:53.434
That's not how that's supposed to work.

01:50:55.244 --> 01:50:58.884
Want to ship people out for the middle of the night to try to avoid a court

01:50:58.884 --> 01:51:02.504
from telling you you can't do that and violating their civil rights.

01:51:03.364 --> 01:51:12.384
But you want to stop this man who bribed his way into office from serving a

01:51:12.384 --> 01:51:16.184
day in an American jail, a federal jail,

01:51:17.004 --> 01:51:25.324
But you're sending residents or visitors of our nation to foreign jails, right? I don't get it.

01:51:26.484 --> 01:51:31.484
You know, if you just go by the news stories, you're not going to get the logic.

01:51:31.664 --> 01:51:36.944
So you've got to figure out on your own, why is it so important for him to let these people out?

01:51:37.984 --> 01:51:42.104
Who is he trying to appease? Who is he trying to rile up? Who is he trying to

01:51:42.104 --> 01:51:45.444
motivate? Who is he trying to appeal to?

01:51:46.184 --> 01:51:49.104
And what does he want to do with that, right?

01:51:50.204 --> 01:51:58.184
Because I've learned that evil people have no limits until it's imposed upon them.

01:51:59.044 --> 01:52:03.044
Those of us of the Christian faith are taught that we are supposed to have dominion

01:52:03.044 --> 01:52:08.144
over the devil because the devil is of earth, just like animals.

01:52:08.144 --> 01:52:12.124
Animals, you know, everybody wants to be benign and say, oh,

01:52:12.224 --> 01:52:17.064
it's about, you know, we have dominion over the lions and the tigers and the

01:52:17.064 --> 01:52:19.424
bears and the trees and the grass.

01:52:19.784 --> 01:52:24.324
No, the biblical message was Lucifer fell from heaven.

01:52:24.744 --> 01:52:30.804
He called himself Satan. He said he's rule of the earth and God created a mini

01:52:30.804 --> 01:52:34.024
version of himself to have dominion over him.

01:52:35.610 --> 01:52:40.750
It. Reread it if you need to. It's in Genesis. Just reread it, right?

01:52:41.270 --> 01:52:48.910
But this is not a religious show. It's a political show. And so I don't put

01:52:48.910 --> 01:52:54.950
anything past this administration because if you have somebody that's manipulative,

01:52:55.290 --> 01:52:59.890
even if he's in a lesser state, and if you don't think he's in the lesser state,

01:53:00.150 --> 01:53:06.330
watch some of the film from 2015 and then watch his latest press conference now.

01:53:07.190 --> 01:53:11.790
Ten years is amazing what it can do to you, especially if you've been president

01:53:11.790 --> 01:53:13.310
of the United States already once.

01:53:14.230 --> 01:53:20.150
Just make the comparison and then you come up with your own judgment, right?

01:53:20.690 --> 01:53:25.190
Everybody's critical about Biden and his decline over four years.

01:53:25.410 --> 01:53:27.590
Look at what's happened to Donald Trump in 10?

01:53:28.670 --> 01:53:33.970
Just saying, just look at it, right? But I still don't put anything past him,

01:53:34.270 --> 01:53:40.650
especially if you don't have people surrounding him that will say, that's a bad idea.

01:53:41.450 --> 01:53:43.850
Whatever you say, Mr. President, I'm down with that. No, no,

01:53:44.030 --> 01:53:45.170
we don't need those kind of people.

01:53:45.990 --> 01:53:50.430
And we definitely don't need to empower the people around him that's giving

01:53:50.430 --> 01:53:53.130
him the bad ideas to do, Right.

01:53:53.910 --> 01:54:00.130
So I don't know. I am a Democratic activist.

01:54:00.470 --> 01:54:02.050
There's no secret about that.

01:54:03.490 --> 01:54:11.170
So, you know, I support my team. But I'm going to say something to you all so

01:54:11.170 --> 01:54:12.750
you understand where I'm coming from.

01:54:12.750 --> 01:54:19.730
And really the gist of what I'm trying to do here is that I want you to demand

01:54:19.730 --> 01:54:22.510
of the Democratic Party your trust again.

01:54:22.970 --> 01:54:30.290
I want you to demand that the Democratic Party be a true alternative to what

01:54:30.290 --> 01:54:36.150
we're seeing, not a light version of it or a tolerable version of it.

01:54:36.250 --> 01:54:40.790
I wanted the Democratic Party to be the complete opposite. If these people are

01:54:40.790 --> 01:54:43.310
evil, then we need to be good. Thank you.

01:54:44.217 --> 01:54:48.797
You know, I'm tired of the lesser of two evils argument.

01:54:49.517 --> 01:54:54.837
I don't want a choice between two evils anymore. I want people to have a choice

01:54:54.837 --> 01:54:56.857
between good versus evil.

01:54:57.237 --> 01:54:59.997
Not perfect, but good.

01:55:00.517 --> 01:55:03.777
Meaning they understand statesmanship.

01:55:04.077 --> 01:55:09.257
They understand about developing a society that will last through generations.

01:55:09.257 --> 01:55:13.777
That's about peace and fairness and equality and justice.

01:55:14.777 --> 01:55:19.517
It's not going to be perfect, but it's got to be done the right way.

01:55:20.017 --> 01:55:26.277
And right now it is not. And there is no attempt for it to be done the right way.

01:55:27.037 --> 01:55:30.097
And we just have to consider that the next election.

01:55:30.577 --> 01:55:34.237
You know, all this, well, you know, we got to appease all that.

01:55:34.357 --> 01:55:36.077
No, we need to educate people.

01:55:36.257 --> 01:55:39.077
If they are fooled and think that what they got now is good,

01:55:39.437 --> 01:55:42.617
then we need to show them what good really is.

01:55:43.537 --> 01:55:48.677
Right. That's our mission. We got to show them what good really means,

01:55:48.857 --> 01:55:51.337
what being an American leader really means.

01:55:52.037 --> 01:55:56.257
This, what we have, is horrible by any stretch of the imagination.

01:55:56.257 --> 01:55:58.857
There's no way to sugarcoat it or anything.

01:55:59.137 --> 01:56:04.397
If we're pardoning people who bribe folks to get elected, those are not good

01:56:04.397 --> 01:56:06.477
people. Those are horrible people.

01:56:07.937 --> 01:56:13.117
And in the imperfection of the political process, there will be some horrible

01:56:13.117 --> 01:56:16.197
people that will still get elected, but they can't be the majority.

01:56:16.817 --> 01:56:23.737
It should be one of them fell through the cracks, but not a whole political

01:56:23.737 --> 01:56:25.797
party full of them, right?

01:56:27.590 --> 01:56:33.310
All I know is that we have to do better, and we need to support people who are

01:56:33.310 --> 01:56:34.390
trying to make it better.

01:56:34.850 --> 01:56:38.790
Even if they're not running for office, if they're doing the work like a Cassie

01:56:38.790 --> 01:56:46.370
Owens or Claudia Rowe or any of the guests that I've had, just support people doing good.

01:56:46.630 --> 01:56:49.630
Just watch people doing the work.

01:56:51.070 --> 01:56:54.610
Embrace what they're doing. Participate in what they're doing.

01:56:55.190 --> 01:57:00.190
And then take that knowledge that you see and apply it to the people that come

01:57:00.190 --> 01:57:02.090
and knock on your door saying, I need your vote.

01:57:02.750 --> 01:57:06.770
We have to demand that our elected officials,

01:57:07.590 --> 01:57:10.730
respond to us and fight for us,

01:57:10.990 --> 01:57:17.730
all of us, that they accept us and they allow us to live our best lives,

01:57:18.510 --> 01:57:24.170
and don't try to constrict us other than harming each other.

01:57:24.810 --> 01:57:29.650
That's the main, you know, just don't let people kill each other.

01:57:29.810 --> 01:57:32.490
Don't let people steal from each other, all that kind of stuff.

01:57:33.270 --> 01:57:34.330
That's the restriction.

01:57:35.390 --> 01:57:41.010
Not about what car we're going to drive, what neighborhood we want to live in, who we want to date.

01:57:41.450 --> 01:57:44.070
None of that. Don't restrict it. When we want to have a baby.

01:57:44.270 --> 01:57:45.510
Don't restrict any of that.

01:57:46.370 --> 01:57:51.570
Or who wants to even serve. The only thing that you restrict anybody from serving

01:57:51.570 --> 01:57:57.830
is you discerning that these people don't have the right heart for it.

01:57:58.770 --> 01:58:05.790
But that's why we've got to be demanding of that. We've got to be demanding and not entertainment.

01:58:07.290 --> 01:58:10.370
We don't need to be entertained at Capitol Hill.

01:58:10.490 --> 01:58:13.030
We don't need to be entertained at the White House. We don't need to be entertained

01:58:13.030 --> 01:58:15.850
at our state capitals or our city halls.

01:58:16.370 --> 01:58:19.890
Those people need to be about work, working for us.

01:58:20.470 --> 01:58:26.410
You know, we have TVs. We have our phones with the streaming service.

01:58:26.830 --> 01:58:31.530
We can go to a movie theater. We can go to a sports arena if we want to be entertained,

01:58:31.530 --> 01:58:34.010
but not in the halls of government.

01:58:34.770 --> 01:58:38.910
We can't endorse corruption and evil anymore.

01:58:39.510 --> 01:58:45.070
We don't have that luxury anymore. People are dying. People are hurting. People are struggling.

01:58:45.850 --> 01:58:49.150
We need to elect people that are going to fix that.

01:58:49.950 --> 01:58:52.410
Thank y'all for listening. Until next time.

01:58:54.160 --> 01:59:40.586
Music.