Redemption & Resistance Featuring Rev. John Lee Hooker, Jr. and MiDian Shofner

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

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If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.

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First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash A Moment with Erik Fleming.

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Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak

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truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.

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Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you

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listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.

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Third, go to the website, momenteric.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,

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leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

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Lastly, don't keep this a secret like it's your own personal guilty pleasure.

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Tell someone else about the podcast encourage others to listen to the podcast

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and share the podcast on your social media platforms because it is time to make

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this moment a movement thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time

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i hope you enjoy this episode as well,

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the following program is hosted by the nbg podcast network.

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Music.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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And so we're now season 11, but the podcast is in full effect,

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and so is Black History Month.

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Yes, despite the efforts of our current president and others of his ilk,

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it is still Black History month.

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And for those of us who always say that it's Black History 365,

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you know, we are living that.

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We are living that.

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The resistance is still there.

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It may come in waves.

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It may come in pulses, but it's still there.

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And the education will always continue. You may try to ban it from you're from

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the schools, you may try to ban it from the workplace, but we still have homes

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and we still have community.

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And so black history is always going to be a part of what we do.

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So, and in that vein, I just want to send a shout out to the National Newspapers,

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Newspaper Publishers Association, National Association of Black Journalists

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and the Black Podcasters Association.

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I have been affiliated with all three of those organizations,

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and it is our mission to make sure that Black voices are heard and Black stories are told, right?

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And I think it's very, very important to highlight it during this month, But also,

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as we go through the year, that in the times that we are in,

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in the times we are going to be in, in the near future, those organizations,

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excuse me, need our respect and support.

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So support black newspapers, support black journalists, support black podcasters.

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And I'll leave it at that.

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Speaking about supporting black journalists.

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Oh, by the way, we've got we've got a great show.

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We've got two exceptional people, one who is a legacy and one who is creating a legacy in activism.

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So I hope that you'll enjoy those guests. But speaking of telling stories and

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supporting black journalists, it is time for a moment of news with Grace G.

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Music.

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Thanks, Erik. President Trump proposed that the U.S.

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Take control of the Gaza Strip and develop it economically after resettling

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Palestinians elsewhere.

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A medevac plane crashed in Philadelphia, killing all six people on board,

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all of whom were Mexican nationals.

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President Trump suspended tariffs on Mexico and Canada for 30 days,

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following agreements on border and crime enforcement while tariffs on China went into effect.

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Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency commenced a plan to dismantle the U.S.

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Agency for International Development and merge it with the State Department

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Musk and his DOGE team have also taken control of key U.S.

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Government offices, affecting systems that manage federal personnel,

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contracts, and the Treasury's payment network Tulsa's new mayor gave support

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to a plan to pay reparations to survivors and descendants of the 1921 race massacre

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A judge extended a pause on the Trump administration's funding freeze,

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citing potential overreach of Congress's spending authority and the impact on

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federally funded organizations.

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The Trump administration plans to end deportation relief for over 300,000 Venezuelans in the U.S.

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With temporary protected status.

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New York has enacted a law to protect state doctors from prosecution by other

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states for prescribing and mailing abortion pills. A U.S.

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Judge blocked Trump's executive order requiring transgender women to be housed

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in men's prisons and ending their access to gender-affirming care.

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President Trump signed an executive order to create a U.S.

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Sovereign wealth fund, potentially to purchase TikTok.

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The Eaton and Palisades fires, which caused significant destruction in Los Angeles

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County, have been fully contained.

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And Ken Martin was elected as the new chair of the Democratic National Committee.

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I am Grace G. And this has been...

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.

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And now it is time for my first guest, the Reverend John Lee Hooker Jr.

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Reverend John Lee Hooker Jr. is the son of blues legend John Lee Hooker and

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as a teenager toured with his father as the featured attraction.

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After a battle with drug addiction and several stints in prison,

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he went on to have a successful music career of his own.

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His first album, Blues with a Vengeance, was released in 2004,

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nominated for a Grammy Award, and won the W.C. Handy Award for Debut Artist.

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His third album, All Odds Against Me, released in 2008, also received a Grammy nomination.

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He is now an ordained minister and divides his time between the United States

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and Germany. His memoir, From the Shadow of the Blues, is out from Roman and Littlefield.

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And that's the basis of the interview today that we're going to be talking about

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that book, From the Shadow of the Blues.

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So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a

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guest on this podcast, the Reverend John Lee Hooker, Jr..

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Music.

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All right. The Reverend John Lee Hooker, Jr. How are you doing,

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my friend? You doing good?

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Doing very well. I'm blessed. I'm blessed. And it's a blessing to be on your show, Erik.

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Thank you so much for your invite. Well, it's a blessing to have you,

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man, because I grew up in Chicago and then I spent the next 34 years of my life in Mississippi.

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So when I hear the name John Lee hooker that

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means something you know it's like that's

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just part of the culture in the

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black community growing up and it doesn't even matter if you're a

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blues fan or not you you know what that name john lee hooker means so to have

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the son the the the the man that carries the legacy and the name on the show

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is really really something but you you have a very very unique story too.

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And I just wanted to get you on the show because you've written this book.

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And let me make sure I got the name of the book right. From the Shadow of the

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Blues, which is an interesting title because of the journey that you've been on.

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So what I like to do with the guests is that to break the ice is to throw a quote at the guest.

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So this is your quote. I'm the only one I know of who actually entered a prison to do a gig,

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came back as a convict, and ultimately returned as a prison chaplain.

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Explain that quote to the audience.

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It is also unusual to me.

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And only God knew about it and how it would happen.

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In 1971, I got off parole from Jackson, Michigan prison to Cassidy Lake.

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Michigan, I got off parole after I got out of prison in Michigan.

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And family, dad, and everybody said, get him out of there because,

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you know, Detroit, they're killing

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in Chicago and New York. get him out of Detroit and come on over here.

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So I arrived in California and it's 72.

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My dad says, it's your big opportunity, boy.

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We're going into solid dad prison. I know you made a little joke.

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I know you're not scared to go in prison. You already been there before.

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So, oh, there you crazy so

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we go into through the sally port gate

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a abc ed michelle from in

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beverly hills abc no longer that no

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abc records called my dad we're

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going into we'd like to record they want to record you live john in Soledad

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prison well i'm bringing my boy with me you're no problem and we drove through

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the Sally Port gate where they actually bring in the prisoners.

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We didn't go through the visiting room part. We went through the Sally Port gate.

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R&R where they return and release.

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And I'll never forget it. It was a gun tower.

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That we passed through at Finchison and clearing radio signals and codes.

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And we went in and it was just dusty and really hot.

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You know how you can, it gets so hot that you can see the waves in the air. Yeah.

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And there was all the prisoners and they couldn't wait.

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We, they couldn't wait because they were behind the fence as we were doing sound check.

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So when we did the sound check and they gave the thumbs up,

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they released them all to the yard and everybody got their positions on the

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yard, you know, and this, this, this, this crew over here and that crew over

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there and this race there and that race there, everything. You notice that.

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And the music began and I started it off and they gave me a well,

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we were standing room only.

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I introduced my dad and they went crazy.

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There was a guard on my left and come to find out his name was Ernie,

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prison guard, and he's protecting the free guys from these what they call savages, these killers.

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And that was Ernie. So 14 years later, that gig turned into my residence.

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I was arrested for grand theft person playing a con game like I was from South Africa.

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Anyway, I knew I would get caught because he was a priest. And.

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14 years later, that same California, but now I'm chained up.

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And when I found out I was going to Soledad prison, I said, oh,

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my God, because I knew somebody's going to say, weren't you?

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And sure enough, when they assigned me to my supervisor and told me what to

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report to, I walked in and the man said, show me your prison ID.

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I gave him my ID, gave him the paperwork, and he looked at my ID,

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and he said, I remember you with that country growl.

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And I said, I'm sorry, sir, but I never did time here.

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I remember you, sir. I'm just here to report to work.

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I've never been here before, sir. and then he

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went in his drawer and pulled out an

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eight by 11 photo of me on

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stage and Ernie at the time

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14 years ago a skinny security uh a prison guard and I wanted to deny it I was

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almost like I felt like Peter I ain't gonna say I felt like Peter but I wanted

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to do something like Peter And he said, no, you must got the wrong person.

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But he had the smoking gun in his hand. And I said, yeah. He said, well, I'll be darned.

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And he looked out for me, gave me the good job, gave me supervisor's job over there in landscape.

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And then to make a long story short, the Lord just did a 180 with my life.

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And after the nominations and all of that stuff, all of the violence and all

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of that stuff, the Lord did and sent me back.

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Somebody told me you will never be able to go back into solid day at prison because you did time.

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You especially won't be able to go. So I knew a God that they didn't know.

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I know. And just like I told my wife, God will open any door for you if you

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are going to take his gospel and give him the glory for the purpose of his glory,

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for the purpose of souls.

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God can do anything. And I prayed. I said, God, they say I couldn't do it.

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Open those doors. I got a letter, an email route. I got an email saying, you've been clear.

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I danced right inside of the living room. I just danced and nobody could tell me what God did.

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And I walked inside a solid dad prison through the visitors,

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through the visitors this time.

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And I don't think So I walked through the visitors portion of it and they escorted

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me to another, what do you call it,

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a metal detector and took me into Soledad South.

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And I was able to see where the dorm that I was in.

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And I'm telling you, I just almost got teary.

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Then they took me, after I spoke right there, then they took me to Central,

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where Sir Hand, Sir Hand, and you know them guys, and Soledad Brothers are locked up.

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And that's where they took me to Central, to the chapel, and that's when it hit me.

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I testified after they called me on, and I just had to shut my eyes because here I was, Eric.

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Brother Eric, back in the place three times, but this time to tell them about

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Jesus Christ and how he turned my life around.

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I said, I know a lot of y'all wasn't born, but I'm here to tell you God can do anything.

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Yep. And that's how it happened. So, and that's basically the whole premise

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of this book that, you know, you talk about,

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it's an autobiography because you talk about your journey from growing up with

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your dad and performing with your dad in the business,

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all the struggles that you went through and how you came into.

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Up to, uh, to be where you are now, a man of God and preaching the gospel.

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So why did you feel that you needed to write this book?

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Uh, well, I have been, I have been encouraged.

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I have been encouraged by some of everybody, even by ex-convicts,

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convicts, uh, school teachers in seminary and in college and in the Bible college.

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It just encouraged and people in church tell your story.

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And my manager, Ron Kramer, my producer, Larry Baptiste, you got to tell this story.

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And we wrote 10,000 pages and my manager went to work.

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He went to work and people We just know we want blood, sweat,

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and tears, rape, and we don't want that kind of stuff.

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But one day, like I said, 10 years ago, we prayed, or I prayed.

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And 10 years later, they found Ron got in touch, or they got in touch with him.

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He offered them the 10,000 and 10,000 words.

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And is it Rowan and Littlefield? So a little Phil and Rowan publisher says,

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we would like to publish this book. And I danced again.

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I danced again because I knew that God was giving me a platform because he knows.

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I don't believe, I don't say it like that, but I know that he knows that.

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I know that he knows that I love him and all I want people to do that struggled like I have.

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Oh, I'm telling you, I've been through it.

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And the people that are hopeless don't think that they can't make it.

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I want them people to hear how a man named Jesus turned my life around.

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They said, even my mother and my father, he won't live to be 21 to 23. I believed it also.

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All the times I overdosed, all the time I woke up, Erik, on the hospital bed

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with them putting that boom and me bouncing up and bouncing and bouncing.

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We almost lost you, son.

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And that's why I wanted people. I want people. And scripture says,

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they overcame him by the blood of the land and by the word of their testimony,

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and they love not their lives unto death.

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I wanted to testify to it from a platform where the whole world can hear that noise.

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Well, and your book does that.

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And it's not really a long book, but that message gets there.

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And all I kept thinking about when I was reading it was when I was mentoring

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young people, especially young black men, And there was one in particular that was kind of like.

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The leader of the group, they were like in a group home.

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So he was kind of like the leader and he didn't see any direction.

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And I remember saying, I bought him the autobiography of Malcolm X. And I said, read that.

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And when he read how Malcolm came from being, you know, a hoodlum,

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as Malcolm would call himself, to being a leader like that, it transformed his life.

00:21:08.574 --> 00:21:13.214
And I think your book in the hands of young people who feel that they don't

00:21:13.214 --> 00:21:17.474
have any other direction, who feel like they're only going to live for this

00:21:17.474 --> 00:21:19.934
moment and they're not going to grow old like me.

00:21:20.854 --> 00:21:27.234
You know what I'm saying? They need to have a book like that to show them that there is a way.

00:21:27.634 --> 00:21:31.814
So I'm glad that you wrote the book. I'm glad you wrote your testimony out.

00:21:32.754 --> 00:21:39.414
How tough was it? Because, you know, the young folks have this term now called Nepo baby. Right.

00:21:39.894 --> 00:21:44.154
Where it's like you're the child of somebody famous.

00:21:44.294 --> 00:21:51.454
And so the perception is, is that you didn't have to work as hard to get status

00:21:51.454 --> 00:21:53.754
as opposed to maybe your parents.

00:21:54.454 --> 00:21:58.714
What what was it like growing up because i

00:21:58.714 --> 00:22:01.474
i want people you know to read a book

00:22:01.474 --> 00:22:09.074
but i want people to understand that your life growing up as the son of a famous

00:22:09.074 --> 00:22:14.894
musician was not as langston hughes would say a crystal stair kind of talk about

00:22:14.894 --> 00:22:18.954
what it was like growing up with your dad what kind of dad, was he?

00:22:20.314 --> 00:22:27.594
Just talk a little bit about that and what do people get wrong in perceiving

00:22:27.594 --> 00:22:31.294
that you had an advantage compared to everybody else?

00:22:32.374 --> 00:22:38.354
Great question. My dad was just like Mr. Fred Bates and Mr.

00:22:38.534 --> 00:22:41.534
Powler and Mr. Rivers down the street.

00:22:41.714 --> 00:22:49.454
They worked at the factories in Detroit, Ford Motor Company and Chrysler's.

00:22:50.194 --> 00:22:56.594
And every day or every morning, every evening, depending on what shift they had.

00:22:57.449 --> 00:23:04.889
They would all kind of like come out because they knew what time the DSR bus ran on McClellan.

00:23:05.249 --> 00:23:10.109
He was a regular guy. When they walked out, he would, hey, Mr.

00:23:10.229 --> 00:23:15.549
Rivers, and he would have his guitar and his amp. Well, he didn't take the amplifier

00:23:15.549 --> 00:23:18.169
because that amplifier, I remember him taking it once.

00:23:18.309 --> 00:23:23.909
It was really too heavy, but he took his guitar and they would walk together.

00:23:23.909 --> 00:23:27.309
They'd have their hard remember the

00:23:27.309 --> 00:23:30.349
metal the metal lunch lunch

00:23:30.349 --> 00:23:33.889
boxes and their helmet and my dad have his guitar

00:23:33.889 --> 00:23:36.649
and they would head to dsr to make make a

00:23:36.649 --> 00:23:39.829
long story short he was a regular guy you start

00:23:39.829 --> 00:23:43.629
noticing the levels at some

00:23:43.629 --> 00:23:48.809
point in his career because you saw long-haired hippies

00:23:48.809 --> 00:23:52.989
from england with funny accents i

00:23:52.989 --> 00:23:56.249
say that jordan lee sir john

00:23:56.249 --> 00:24:02.969
by jove and you hear these different accents and long hairs and platform shoes

00:24:02.969 --> 00:24:10.309
and cameras are now on our front porch and we like wow what's going on you know

00:24:10.309 --> 00:24:14.469
then you hear him on the radio he'd be like Whoa.

00:24:14.929 --> 00:24:20.009
And then people tell you, older people tell you, your dad is famous.

00:24:20.429 --> 00:24:23.909
He never, I never seen him beat on his chest.

00:24:24.449 --> 00:24:30.349
Never seen him tell people you can't come in to meet me. You got to stand in

00:24:30.349 --> 00:24:32.229
line or you got to make an appointment.

00:24:32.549 --> 00:24:38.389
You didn't care how you dressed or how you look or what color you were. Let him in.

00:24:39.093 --> 00:24:42.133
That's who he was. That's who he was.

00:24:42.273 --> 00:24:47.353
He, he, he, and he was a comedian. He missed his calling. He was also a comedian.

00:24:47.633 --> 00:24:54.333
He did impersonations of people. They were funny and corny and just a loving

00:24:54.333 --> 00:24:59.553
person and would jump out of an airplane to save you, to help you.

00:24:59.693 --> 00:25:07.913
That's what he would do. Now, in terms of people having the facade that because you Frank Sinatra Jr.

00:25:08.313 --> 00:25:15.073
Or if you were Willie Mays Jr. or whoever you were, that wasn't the case.

00:25:15.193 --> 00:25:16.633
I'm just to speak for myself.

00:25:17.013 --> 00:25:22.453
That wasn't the case with me. It was all that glitters is not gold.

00:25:22.993 --> 00:25:30.733
And because a person laughs real loud, you can't see what's in the heart behind the laugh.

00:25:31.033 --> 00:25:39.873
And where's another one? Because the apple is red and looks shiny and delicious and is attractive,

00:25:39.873 --> 00:25:42.993
you know you you realize that

00:25:42.993 --> 00:25:46.193
you don't know that there's a worm and

00:25:46.193 --> 00:25:49.993
some rotten decay on the inside that

00:25:49.993 --> 00:25:52.773
was me that was me that was

00:25:52.773 --> 00:25:56.393
me so how did how did we get there how did how did

00:25:56.393 --> 00:26:00.493
how did we get to a point where you you

00:26:00.493 --> 00:26:03.533
you came out of that because you looked up

00:26:03.533 --> 00:26:06.453
to your dad it's pretty obvious and and you

00:26:06.453 --> 00:26:10.453
said that you had a mindset where it's like well i'm not gonna live forever

00:26:10.453 --> 00:26:15.713
so i'm gonna live how did how did how did john lee hooker jr become that that

00:26:15.713 --> 00:26:23.613
that that apple that had the worm in it it started i believe.

00:26:25.284 --> 00:26:31.504
And I use that analogy all the time. The apple doesn't fall too far from the

00:26:31.504 --> 00:26:34.224
tree, but mine's rolled down the hill.

00:26:35.764 --> 00:26:42.584
There is a lot that I can say that, and I can remember the scripture.

00:26:42.924 --> 00:26:48.484
And it says that Jesus said, a little leaven, leaveneth the whole lump.

00:26:49.044 --> 00:26:54.284
And all it took was a little, and it just began to grow.

00:26:54.284 --> 00:27:00.624
I saw people shoot through the front door, violence, I saw violence,

00:27:00.944 --> 00:27:03.264
I saw eyewitness infidelity.

00:27:04.304 --> 00:27:14.624
Eyewitness, I watched my two people that I love so much grow apart.

00:27:14.624 --> 00:27:23.004
And you wonder, well, if I love two people and one is going this way and one

00:27:23.004 --> 00:27:27.104
is going that way, what am I going to do as this little?

00:27:27.264 --> 00:27:36.364
And when I cry out for help, there's this gentleman that has an extraordinary type of employment.

00:27:36.384 --> 00:27:44.064
He has to fly to the other parts of the world and I can't give him a hug and I can't say, help me.

00:27:44.204 --> 00:27:49.784
And what do I do? And then I, when I reach over here and my mama, where is she at?

00:27:49.904 --> 00:27:55.504
So I use this song, I use this analogy in a song also.

00:27:55.944 --> 00:28:03.904
And it was, I used drugs and alcohol and all of that dirty, rotten stuff as

00:28:03.904 --> 00:28:07.204
a bandaid to put over my bullet wound.

00:28:07.484 --> 00:28:12.884
And it didn't stay long because it kept on coming off and it kept on bleeding.

00:28:13.164 --> 00:28:19.164
And just one thing turned to another. I was almost killed when I was 16.

00:28:19.444 --> 00:28:30.984
My fault, my fault, my fault. And juvenile hall, 15, 16, then graduated to the county jail.

00:28:31.204 --> 00:28:34.844
And I watched my friend. I didn't watch it witness but

00:28:34.844 --> 00:28:38.684
my friend Henry 17 also

00:28:38.684 --> 00:28:41.344
we three of us one two three I think

00:28:41.344 --> 00:28:44.164
it was three of us on the fourth floor in

00:28:44.164 --> 00:28:47.884
the county jail in Detroit when I woke

00:28:47.884 --> 00:28:55.224
up I learned that my friend well I really found out when I went to court and

00:28:55.224 --> 00:29:02.464
I was on my way into the bull bull tank I was on my way to the tank where you

00:29:02.464 --> 00:29:05.644
go to the court and I saw Henry.

00:29:06.024 --> 00:29:10.644
Is that true? And I started crying right there.

00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:20.780
Because the rumor that I heard that morning came true when Henry changed locations.

00:29:20.780 --> 00:29:27.040
They took him out of there and an investigation was going on with Shorty because

00:29:27.040 --> 00:29:32.400
Shorty raped my friend, older guy, been to prison two or three times, raped my friend.

00:29:33.080 --> 00:29:35.760
And so I'm going through all of this, man.

00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:39.580
And what can I do? I don't have my dad.

00:29:39.580 --> 00:29:42.600
Had my dad I'm coming home and then my

00:29:42.600 --> 00:29:45.820
mom so a lot of stuff built

00:29:45.820 --> 00:29:49.200
up and and then you got the peers you got

00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:51.980
the peers you got people that might be in a

00:29:51.980 --> 00:29:55.500
worse situation in myself and you

00:29:55.500 --> 00:29:58.540
look for birds of a feather

00:29:58.540 --> 00:30:02.060
that's like the ones you got on and you're

00:30:02.060 --> 00:30:04.980
all agreeing to the same lie and

00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:08.780
you're smoking cigarettes at 14 years

00:30:08.780 --> 00:30:11.900
old and you're drinking wine and back in

00:30:11.900 --> 00:30:18.740
you you sniff an airplane glue in a paper bag remember the penny bags airplane

00:30:18.740 --> 00:30:24.360
glue just blow your head off i did that one time i never did it again but just

00:30:24.360 --> 00:30:29.180
my my my point is i had a lot on my mind i had a lot.

00:30:29.380 --> 00:30:34.840
I had a lot. I had a lot. And I cried in juvenile hall. I would get under my

00:30:34.840 --> 00:30:37.080
covers and I would just cry.

00:30:37.320 --> 00:30:41.160
And when it was daytime, I'd come out like wasn't nothing.

00:30:41.900 --> 00:30:44.160
Band-aid over a bully.

00:30:46.320 --> 00:30:52.220
So, excuse me, without giving away, because I want people to buy the book,

00:30:53.140 --> 00:31:00.920
But there was another quote you said that I think kind of gets us to the redemption part.

00:31:01.580 --> 00:31:08.260
It says, we're free to do whatever we want, but we mustn't use our freedom in

00:31:08.260 --> 00:31:11.040
Christ as a cover up for evil.

00:31:11.380 --> 00:31:22.260
Talk about that quote. So in that scripture, do not use your liberty as a cloak of deception.

00:31:24.222 --> 00:31:29.702
We have, especially Christians, we have all of the opportunities to,

00:31:29.882 --> 00:31:37.082
and I'll use this, we have all the opportunities to bite that apple that God forbids us to eat.

00:31:37.642 --> 00:31:43.122
And I am a trusted, and just like you are trusted,

00:31:43.482 --> 00:31:51.602
Christians are, especially those who have titles or those who've been in the

00:31:51.602 --> 00:31:54.822
church for a long time, people trust us.

00:31:54.982 --> 00:32:02.742
People trust us. And I had many opportunities, and the devil told me to do the same thing.

00:32:03.022 --> 00:32:09.582
You can get a whole lot of money, just like those megachurches does,

00:32:09.882 --> 00:32:13.122
some of those megachurches, and get all that money.

00:32:13.122 --> 00:32:19.762
You could sell kilos of dope if you wanted to know one would ever know it.

00:32:20.002 --> 00:32:24.282
I remember one time I was opening up my bank account.

00:32:24.522 --> 00:32:28.882
I only had a few dollars in it, but I opened up my bank account,

00:32:29.202 --> 00:32:33.082
Erik, and there was $30,000 in my bank account.

00:32:34.202 --> 00:32:44.102
And I remember laughing about it. But I remember when I told him that I had,

00:32:44.302 --> 00:32:48.342
I said, I woke up, I checked my bank.

00:32:48.522 --> 00:32:51.562
She said, I said, $30,000.

00:32:52.062 --> 00:32:54.322
And she shouted, hallelujah.

00:32:55.482 --> 00:32:59.962
Like God. And I told my partner, he said, won't God do it?

00:33:02.482 --> 00:33:09.102
And that's what I mean. I didn't use my liberty, you know what I mean,

00:33:09.282 --> 00:33:14.222
to take advantage of an error from bank account people,

00:33:14.702 --> 00:33:18.642
giving people back what I wanted.

00:33:19.208 --> 00:33:28.068
So that was my way, redeeming my personality, my character, my name, because I had a bad name.

00:33:28.228 --> 00:33:31.128
I had a bad name. You may thought it was me. Yeah, I know.

00:33:31.628 --> 00:33:34.508
I know his dad, but him? Oh, no.

00:33:36.988 --> 00:33:42.848
But yeah, that's what that means. Yeah, because I know you went through a journey

00:33:42.848 --> 00:33:49.188
where, you know, you were coming out and, you know, you got you had a success.

00:33:49.208 --> 00:33:51.668
Career of your own in music.

00:33:52.628 --> 00:33:58.428
But it was kind of like you kept going back and forth, right?

00:33:58.528 --> 00:34:02.948
It was like you were trying to live a godly life, but then you were still in

00:34:02.948 --> 00:34:05.908
the music business and you kept slipping and all that stuff.

00:34:06.168 --> 00:34:12.688
So when I saw that, I said, yeah, that's a pretty good summation about how even

00:34:12.688 --> 00:34:16.348
when we feel that we're doing something we're meant to do.

00:34:17.348 --> 00:34:22.828
That it's like, we're really not fulfilling what our true purpose is,

00:34:22.848 --> 00:34:28.008
but we're trying to use God as a cover to justify it and say,

00:34:28.268 --> 00:34:31.608
this is, but, but, you know, I, I'm a believer.

00:34:31.788 --> 00:34:34.908
I'm, I, I'm saved. So I'm supposed to be doing this. And then when you keep

00:34:34.908 --> 00:34:38.688
falling back, you're like, well, if this is really what's supposed to happen,

00:34:38.948 --> 00:34:43.748
then, then why do I keep going through these struggles and all that stuff.

00:34:44.248 --> 00:34:49.468
Because, you know, one of the things that, you know, the Apostle Paul basically

00:34:49.468 --> 00:34:52.248
tells us is that we have to die.

00:34:52.588 --> 00:34:56.468
The old person has to die for us to be a new person in Christ.

00:34:56.848 --> 00:35:02.568
And it's one thing to read that, and it's one thing to say, I believe that,

00:35:02.708 --> 00:35:04.448
but it's another thing to live that.

00:35:04.788 --> 00:35:10.088
Just real quickly, what was that moment when you realized that,

00:35:10.791 --> 00:35:15.931
This part of me has to die and I have to just and I have to go forward and step out in faith.

00:35:15.931 --> 00:35:25.991
Again, I reiterate to the glamorous part of the world.

00:35:27.111 --> 00:35:36.171
Nominated, invited to one of the biggest festivals in America,

00:35:36.631 --> 00:35:42.291
the biggest festival in Russia and Turkey and Australia.

00:35:42.291 --> 00:35:50.011
And being invited to being nominated once and twice for a Grammy and walking

00:35:50.011 --> 00:35:54.511
the red carpet and all of this glamour.

00:35:54.731 --> 00:35:56.611
And then you fall back.

00:35:56.991 --> 00:36:05.751
There's a scripture says, as a fool returns to his folly, so a dog returns to his own vomit.

00:36:05.971 --> 00:36:13.511
The same thing that got me almost killed many times, the same lifestyle.

00:36:14.051 --> 00:36:17.831
I went back and I licked it up.

00:36:18.071 --> 00:36:29.171
And one day, God told me through a pastor, you are not a nightclub entertainer.

00:36:29.331 --> 00:36:33.051
You are a preacher of the gospel.

00:36:33.351 --> 00:36:40.351
And it was a struggle trying to pull off that old man.

00:36:40.751 --> 00:36:47.351
But I believe that God knew that deep down inside my heart, I wanted to shake it.

00:36:47.471 --> 00:36:49.811
That's the script. That's the name of my book, brother.

00:36:50.251 --> 00:36:57.231
And I was reading the scripture and it says, he that dwells in a secret place.

00:36:57.771 --> 00:37:03.971
He that dwells in a secret place resides under the shadow of the almighty.

00:37:03.971 --> 00:37:08.071
That is the shadow hallelujah that

00:37:08.071 --> 00:37:12.091
i am under now not under the nightlife god

00:37:12.091 --> 00:37:17.191
bless the blue singers but i don't sing about me and my baby did whatever last

00:37:17.191 --> 00:37:22.031
night and got drunk and or let the good time roll i don't care if you're young

00:37:22.031 --> 00:37:28.191
or old all you got to do is let the good time roll i don't do it no more. And I am so happy.

00:37:28.351 --> 00:37:37.251
I'm at peace. I know, I know that I know that when I die, I'll see Jesus Christ face to face.

00:37:37.531 --> 00:37:42.051
I know that. I know that. And you can't serve two masters.

00:37:42.391 --> 00:37:47.131
You cannot serve two because you're going to love one or you're going to hate the other.

00:37:47.451 --> 00:37:51.931
And at that point in my life, like I said, I failed four times.

00:37:52.051 --> 00:37:57.411
That point in my life, I saw myself falling in love with the world.

00:37:57.591 --> 00:37:59.731
And I know it was only temporary.

00:38:00.231 --> 00:38:03.831
I knew the scripture. I knew the scripture.

00:38:04.071 --> 00:38:09.391
I knew the scripture. And it is the scripture that I give God the glory for because.

00:38:10.567 --> 00:38:13.627
I came back because of the scripture.

00:38:13.767 --> 00:38:21.907
The scripture says a righteous man falls several times and rises back up again.

00:38:22.107 --> 00:38:28.587
And I was that prodigal son, man. I knew there was a God that would forgive

00:38:28.587 --> 00:38:34.507
me and that would take me back, irregardless of all the wrong that I have done.

00:38:34.507 --> 00:38:39.627
He took me back. And here I am now, bro, talking on Erik Fleming's show.

00:38:42.347 --> 00:38:47.867
Well, I just think there was a preacher friend of mine, and one time he said

00:38:47.867 --> 00:38:52.107
that we had to get from the shadow of the world into the shade of the righteousness.

00:38:52.647 --> 00:38:55.947
And so that's all I kept thinking about when you were giving that answer.

00:38:56.347 --> 00:39:00.887
And I think that's apropos. But now you said you're on the Erik Fleming show.

00:39:01.047 --> 00:39:06.127
So this is a political show. So I got to ask you a couple of political questions.

00:39:06.567 --> 00:39:09.867
But I'm not going to put you on the spot, really.

00:39:09.867 --> 00:39:15.727
But I do always when I have somebody that is that that are ministers on the

00:39:15.727 --> 00:39:22.047
show, I always want to kind of ask them a question about gauging the temperature.

00:39:22.347 --> 00:39:27.567
And since now that you are you spent most of your time outside the United States,

00:39:27.567 --> 00:39:34.707
when you look back at what's going on in America from a spiritual standpoint,

00:39:34.707 --> 00:39:37.787
what what concerns you the most?

00:39:38.707 --> 00:39:46.627
Concerns me well what concerns me i i believe you may be talking about what's

00:39:46.627 --> 00:39:52.027
going on in america and what concerns me about what's going on in america,

00:39:53.307 --> 00:40:00.207
remember jesus said when these things come to pass remember that i told you.

00:40:01.718 --> 00:40:08.198
And that's what's going on in America, especially, is Jesus predicted that in

00:40:08.198 --> 00:40:14.558
the last days, wickedness would abound and the love of many would grow cold.

00:40:14.838 --> 00:40:20.098
We have narcissistic, a narcissistic political system.

00:40:20.458 --> 00:40:21.998
You know what's going on.

00:40:23.718 --> 00:40:28.298
People are under the impression, and I wrote a song about it that's coming out

00:40:28.298 --> 00:40:35.078
in May. People are under the impression that it is money and houses and wealth

00:40:35.078 --> 00:40:38.118
that is going to. They can't see heaven.

00:40:38.378 --> 00:40:47.798
They can't see glory because they are blinded by the extravagance, the elegant living.

00:40:48.038 --> 00:40:54.138
They're making so much money these days in music, in sports.

00:40:54.138 --> 00:41:00.438
They are under the impression that they don't need God. They can't see God.

00:41:00.738 --> 00:41:08.438
You remember Zacchaeus, the little short guy, when Jesus was passing through, he couldn't see him.

00:41:08.538 --> 00:41:12.418
But what he did was he got up in the tree so that he could see him.

00:41:12.798 --> 00:41:17.378
And Jesus said, come down for salvation is going to be in your house.

00:41:17.518 --> 00:41:22.358
There are some people, brother, that are blinded and they don't want to go up

00:41:22.358 --> 00:41:25.298
the tree to see Jesus. They can't see him.

00:41:25.658 --> 00:41:31.618
The God of this world, four and four of 2 Corinthians, 4th chapter,

00:41:31.858 --> 00:41:37.738
4th verse, the God of this world hath blinded their eyes so that they can't

00:41:37.738 --> 00:41:39.318
see and come to believe the truth.

00:41:39.598 --> 00:41:43.498
And that's what my concern is. People, people.

00:41:44.091 --> 00:41:48.691
Are under the impression that this world is not going to come to the end.

00:41:48.831 --> 00:41:51.811
This world, they don't need a savior.

00:41:52.171 --> 00:41:56.831
You know, I remember a musician showed me a lot of money and put that stack

00:41:56.831 --> 00:42:01.071
of money and says, this is my Jesus. This is my religion.

00:42:01.591 --> 00:42:05.031
And yeah, that's my concern.

00:42:05.231 --> 00:42:11.211
Now you got a politician that wants to take over an entire country.

00:42:11.971 --> 00:42:15.271
So, and that's my answer to your question. Yeah.

00:42:15.671 --> 00:42:23.531
So the other political question I want to ask you is that you have been in the

00:42:23.531 --> 00:42:25.591
system and I worked in the system.

00:42:25.591 --> 00:42:32.731
If you didn't know that, I've been in law enforcement. I've worked in the correctional side of it.

00:42:32.871 --> 00:42:40.291
So you've been in that, you've been in the system as an inmate and now you go in as a chaplain.

00:42:40.291 --> 00:42:45.211
If you had a chance, and I don't know if you've had that opportunity or not,

00:42:45.311 --> 00:42:49.251
but if you had a chance to talk to somebody in the political world and say,

00:42:49.451 --> 00:42:58.751
hey, look, I would like to see this change or this done dealing with the prison

00:42:58.751 --> 00:43:00.831
system in America, what would you say?

00:43:00.971 --> 00:43:08.851
What is your biggest concern about that whole cycle? That whole cycle.

00:43:09.031 --> 00:43:19.611
Well, you have a lot of people that are in jail because they were profiled.

00:43:19.931 --> 00:43:25.271
I would ask that they go through.

00:43:26.789 --> 00:43:32.209
Every record, every court record, just hire somebody or they got AI.

00:43:32.449 --> 00:43:43.869
AI could go through every police report and just look at the mass amount of

00:43:43.869 --> 00:43:48.629
people that have been unjustifiably given life sentences.

00:43:48.969 --> 00:43:56.729
I got a friend who's doing 45 years. I've been taking care of him for 22 years

00:43:56.729 --> 00:43:58.109
since he's been in prison.

00:43:59.149 --> 00:44:02.949
And the guy don't have a main bone in his body.

00:44:03.469 --> 00:44:09.329
That's what I would do. I would ask them, if you can do it from a human's perspective,

00:44:09.329 --> 00:44:13.229
you got these computers to look at all those records.

00:44:13.409 --> 00:44:17.229
And I guarantee you, once they looked at all of those records,

00:44:17.509 --> 00:44:22.469
there would be a whole lot of people released. Then I would ask them to look

00:44:22.469 --> 00:44:26.549
inside of the Justice Department, the prosecutors.

00:44:26.609 --> 00:44:31.309
I just learned that a prosecutor was acquitted in the Aubrey case.

00:44:31.709 --> 00:44:40.089
And just look at stuff and see the injustices that are going on in the DOJ and

00:44:40.089 --> 00:44:43.269
in the DOC and the Department of Corrections.

00:44:43.429 --> 00:44:49.309
That's what I would do if I had the power to do it. All right.

00:44:49.469 --> 00:44:56.189
So this is the part of the program, Reverend, where I get the guests to plug themselves.

00:44:57.009 --> 00:45:01.689
So how can people get your book? How can people reach out to you?

00:45:01.969 --> 00:45:08.029
Are you going to drop another gospel album? Just lay it all out there. What's going on?

00:45:09.235 --> 00:45:15.615
Yes, I am about to release my single in May along with the video,

00:45:15.615 --> 00:45:17.275
and it's called Heaven Rules.

00:45:17.875 --> 00:45:28.015
And, of course, you can purchase my book on every social media distribution,

00:45:28.875 --> 00:45:33.975
meaning Amazon Booklist, Book Million, Barnes & Nobles.

00:45:33.975 --> 00:45:39.075
You can go to my website if you can't remember that, And you can order not from

00:45:39.075 --> 00:45:46.215
me, but by those same distributors that online distributors that I just mentioned.

00:45:46.515 --> 00:45:51.355
Also, those who are listening or will be listening in Europe,

00:45:51.355 --> 00:45:55.295
you can go to Thalia that and you

00:45:55.295 --> 00:46:00.295
can purchase that wherever you live in Europe and you can get it there.

00:46:00.475 --> 00:46:04.815
And you can follow me on Facebook. You can go to my website,

00:46:05.135 --> 00:46:12.175
www.johnleehookerjr.com, and you can go to the ministry page,

00:46:12.175 --> 00:46:15.835
and you can write me and ask me any kind of questions.

00:46:15.935 --> 00:46:20.095
You might want to ask me for prayer, or how can I find Jesus,

00:46:20.155 --> 00:46:22.915
or how can I get off of drugs and alcohol?

00:46:23.675 --> 00:46:28.435
Write me, and I guarantee you I'll write you back, and that's how they can do it, brother.

00:46:29.335 --> 00:46:35.395
Well, ladies and gentlemen, this has been the Reverend John Lee Hooker Jr.

00:46:36.035 --> 00:46:43.775
And earlier in the interview, you were saying that you didn't have a good name when you were younger.

00:46:43.975 --> 00:46:48.495
But I promise you, not only do you have a good name in this lifetime,

00:46:48.775 --> 00:46:51.835
but your name is written in that book that's also important.

00:46:52.295 --> 00:46:58.235
So I greatly appreciate what you are doing. I greatly appreciate what you have done.

00:46:59.095 --> 00:47:01.995
And and I look forward to seeing what

00:47:01.995 --> 00:47:05.455
more you're gonna do and as always

00:47:05.455 --> 00:47:08.315
you have an open invitation brother to come back

00:47:08.315 --> 00:47:14.075
on this show and and you you were saying what a big deal it was to be on the

00:47:14.075 --> 00:47:18.855
show it's a big deal for me brother for you to be on the show it is my honor

00:47:18.855 --> 00:47:24.215
to be in your presence and so I thank you for coming on thank you God bless

00:47:24.215 --> 00:47:27.515
you sir bye-bye all right guys and we're gonna catch out on the.

00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:45.680
Music.

00:47:47.223 --> 00:47:53.723
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, MiDian Shofner.

00:47:54.483 --> 00:47:59.063
MiDian Holmes Shofner grew up and has a rich history in Denver, Colorado.

00:47:59.563 --> 00:48:03.723
She recalls stories and experiences in her childhood filled with racial tensions.

00:48:04.163 --> 00:48:08.563
Some events were in the national spotlight and others were casual occurrences

00:48:08.563 --> 00:48:13.363
in her classroom and neighborhood. Stories centered around Rodney King,

00:48:13.783 --> 00:48:18.103
Latasha Harlins, Amadou Diallo, and the vertical O.J.

00:48:18.243 --> 00:48:22.483
Simpson were just a few triggering reminders during MiDian's formative years

00:48:22.483 --> 00:48:27.043
that the country was divided, despite being taught that America was a place

00:48:27.043 --> 00:48:28.883
of freedom and acceptance.

00:48:29.443 --> 00:48:34.383
While she was able to compartmentalize these national headlines,

00:48:34.603 --> 00:48:39.883
Medin was no stranger to racism from her peers, teachers, and sadly enough, her mentors.

00:48:40.643 --> 00:48:44.623
She leveraged the stories of her elders and her own lived experience to move

00:48:44.623 --> 00:48:47.443
her work from up next to up now,

00:48:47.483 --> 00:48:51.783
and is currently the CEO of the Epitome of Black Excellence and Partnership

00:48:51.783 --> 00:48:56.343
and the owner-founder of APM Consulting for Humanity.

00:48:57.183 --> 00:49:01.123
MiDian brings her life experience, a relentless pursuit for racial justice,

00:49:01.303 --> 00:49:04.643
and her expertise as a community leader, corporate executive,

00:49:04.903 --> 00:49:08.143
and social justice advocate to a new mission.

00:49:08.843 --> 00:49:14.163
MiDian's work is centered on three main pillars, each addressing the community

00:49:14.163 --> 00:49:18.863
and providing opportunities to learn, reflect, grow, and change our society.

00:49:19.823 --> 00:49:23.923
MiDian teaches and lives her commitment to this work.

00:49:24.823 --> 00:49:32.143
And you have heard me before talk about this sister. She is special.

00:49:32.543 --> 00:49:36.063
She is one of my favorite guests to have on.

00:49:37.723 --> 00:49:42.323
And this is only her second time being on, but the work that she's doing,

00:49:42.323 --> 00:49:49.783
it is always my privilege and honor to highlight it and to get her on.

00:49:50.303 --> 00:49:58.503
And yeah, you know, this is this is a sister that the people of the Denver area

00:49:58.503 --> 00:50:00.983
are blessed to have fighting for them.

00:50:00.983 --> 00:50:07.263
So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast, MiDian Shofner.

00:50:07.600 --> 00:50:18.320
Music.

00:50:18.975 --> 00:50:24.035
All right. MiDian Shofner, I have to get used to saying that now.

00:50:24.135 --> 00:50:25.495
How are you doing, sister? You doing good?

00:50:26.115 --> 00:50:31.675
I'm getting used to saying it myself. And yeah, I'll say that the word that

00:50:31.675 --> 00:50:34.135
I'm using nowadays is things are big.

00:50:34.355 --> 00:50:39.695
And so I'll say that I am doing for our people in a big way.

00:50:39.955 --> 00:50:41.875
So that's how I'm doing. I'm big.

00:50:42.335 --> 00:50:48.335
Well, you know, I told you how I felt about you when I came across you last

00:50:48.335 --> 00:50:51.275
time and you're still doing the work.

00:50:52.255 --> 00:50:57.695
You know, as a matter of fact, as I was getting ready to prepare to interview

00:50:57.695 --> 00:51:03.015
you, the ancestral algorithm hit me and I saw this picture of you in handcuffs.

00:51:03.095 --> 00:51:05.135
I said, oh, Lord, here we go, Lord. What are we doing?

00:51:06.355 --> 00:51:10.715
What's happening? I said, I'm glad he's already scheduled to come on.

00:51:10.715 --> 00:51:13.415
So, yeah, so we're going to talk about that.

00:51:13.655 --> 00:51:17.895
But as always, we're going to start off and I've got a couple of icebreakers

00:51:17.895 --> 00:51:20.875
this time, but the traditional icebreaker has always been the quote.

00:51:21.255 --> 00:51:29.115
So this is your quote. We are expecting leaders to lead differently because we've been here before.

00:51:29.675 --> 00:51:34.555
Now it's time for us to see leaders who understand what it means to be impossible.

00:51:35.195 --> 00:51:38.275
We need impossible leadership right now.

00:51:38.755 --> 00:51:41.715
What led you to make that quote? You know,

00:51:42.015 --> 00:51:47.035
so I would say that when we think about leadership and we think about,

00:51:47.215 --> 00:51:50.695
you know, no matter where the authority sits, if it's through an elected official,

00:51:50.995 --> 00:51:54.855
if it's in a classroom, a boardroom or behind a pulpit.

00:51:55.415 --> 00:52:03.335
When you think about leadership, you have to understand and realize that possible is what got us here.

00:52:03.335 --> 00:52:06.715
Wherever we're at in that timeline Possible

00:52:06.715 --> 00:52:09.775
got us here And when we

00:52:09.775 --> 00:52:12.435
are in desperate need And I

00:52:12.435 --> 00:52:15.275
would say that we are in that landscape of desperation Now when

00:52:15.275 --> 00:52:18.455
we are in desperate need of leaders Who are

00:52:18.455 --> 00:52:25.815
willing to create something different And to change the trajectory of the harms

00:52:25.815 --> 00:52:31.595
And the patterns of harm That's where we need leaders to start thinking about

00:52:31.595 --> 00:52:36.195
the impossible possible because possible got us here and it'll keep us here.

00:52:36.535 --> 00:52:42.115
But when it's time for change, we need leaders who are willing to be the impossible

00:52:42.115 --> 00:52:47.755
and to start making decisions and leveraging their influence and their platform

00:52:47.755 --> 00:52:51.635
and just their skill set to create something different,

00:52:52.015 --> 00:52:54.895
something we've never seen. And that is the impossible.

00:52:55.335 --> 00:52:56.935
So that's what we need. We need

00:52:56.935 --> 00:53:01.835
folks that are willing to lean into that opportunity to be impossible.

00:53:02.295 --> 00:53:06.075
Are you seeing that emerge in your area?

00:53:06.315 --> 00:53:11.535
Are you seeing some folks that are rising to that occasion?

00:53:12.657 --> 00:53:16.857
Are a few, Erik, there are a few leaders that I am seeing that are the leaders

00:53:16.857 --> 00:53:19.477
for this time, because we do need impossible leadership.

00:53:19.697 --> 00:53:21.697
But I will say that it's not enough.

00:53:22.037 --> 00:53:28.717
There are more leaders right now that I think are, they are feeling that overwhelm

00:53:28.717 --> 00:53:30.197
effect and they are also,

00:53:30.237 --> 00:53:38.937
they're coming to the reality that they are not the leader that is set to create change.

00:53:39.257 --> 00:53:42.397
They're the leader that might be able to hold the status quo.

00:53:42.657 --> 00:53:48.257
There might be a leader that might be willing to lean into different iterations

00:53:48.257 --> 00:53:51.597
of some of the things that we've already currently seen.

00:53:51.757 --> 00:53:57.397
But I think that the impossible leader right now is definitely that purple squirrel.

00:53:57.617 --> 00:54:03.137
But we do have some in my community, and I tip my hat and always will stand

00:54:03.137 --> 00:54:06.877
shoulder to shoulder with them in their leadership as they continue to navigate.

00:54:07.317 --> 00:54:11.497
Yeah, and I know you're going to nurture a few on the side as well.

00:54:12.157 --> 00:54:20.517
So the next icebreaker I came up with, actually, is a group that I was involved with with Meetup.

00:54:20.597 --> 00:54:25.357
I don't know if you've ever heard of that app or not, but it's called Crossing Party Lines.

00:54:25.737 --> 00:54:31.677
And so they came up with this icebreaker to have discussions about politics in this day and age.

00:54:31.877 --> 00:54:37.897
So what I need you to do is to give me a number between 1 and 20.

00:54:38.617 --> 00:54:43.677
Oh, OK. I'm going to give you 19. All right, 19. So this is your question.

00:54:44.037 --> 00:54:50.237
What are some values you think most people share, even if they express them differently?

00:54:51.957 --> 00:54:57.377
Wow. Okay. I would say one of the values that I think each and every one of

00:54:57.377 --> 00:55:00.917
us can, each and every one of us share is joy.

00:55:01.377 --> 00:55:08.597
I think everyone is definitely looking for ways in which they can,

00:55:08.777 --> 00:55:13.557
not only they can experience joy, but I think that we all dream about the joy

00:55:13.557 --> 00:55:14.937
of those that come beyond us.

00:55:15.217 --> 00:55:20.317
And so that value of joy and the opportunity to pursue that authentically,

00:55:20.317 --> 00:55:22.917
I think is a value that all of us share.

00:55:24.621 --> 00:55:28.861
I would say another one is probably love.

00:55:29.561 --> 00:55:36.981
That's something that, you know, no matter who you are, love is what keeps you alive.

00:55:37.301 --> 00:55:42.021
Love is something that, you know, the opposite of that would be negligence, right?

00:55:42.181 --> 00:55:48.881
So if there is a child that is born and that child doesn't get that love and

00:55:48.881 --> 00:55:52.321
that touch, that actually can kill that child.

00:55:52.321 --> 00:55:57.981
And so I think that we are born and crafted and designed to receive love.

00:55:58.441 --> 00:56:03.461
And as we receive it, we start to understand what it looks like to emulate it

00:56:03.461 --> 00:56:12.721
and to give it back. So, but there are definitely different ways in which all of us see joy and love.

00:56:12.961 --> 00:56:19.261
And there's a lot of things that can get in the way of how we leave room for

00:56:19.261 --> 00:56:21.721
other people around us to pursue both of them.

00:56:22.061 --> 00:56:26.401
You know, there are some scarcity mindsets that might set in to where we start

00:56:26.401 --> 00:56:29.781
to become a barrier for other people's joy and love.

00:56:30.101 --> 00:56:34.841
So, yeah, but I do think that we share the value, but how we live it out is different.

00:56:35.241 --> 00:56:38.041
Yeah, that's that's pretty cool. I like that.

00:56:38.681 --> 00:56:45.481
All right. So unfortunately, I got a segue to something not so joy for loving.

00:56:46.081 --> 00:56:55.281
Talk to me about this brother named Kilyn Lewis, who was shot and killed in May of 2024.

00:56:56.261 --> 00:56:56.821
Absolutely.

00:56:57.841 --> 00:57:02.761
So Kilyn Lewis, 37-year-old, so young Black man in the city of Aurora,

00:57:03.401 --> 00:57:08.421
father, husband, son, brother, and neighbor for a lot of people.

00:57:09.281 --> 00:57:14.301
On May 23rd, he was, so I'll kind of go back a little bit.

00:57:14.561 --> 00:57:22.921
In May of 2024, he was named in a warrant that was issued out of the city of Denver.

00:57:22.921 --> 00:57:30.821
And so there wasn't a lot of information or evidence to substantiate his involvement in the warrant.

00:57:31.201 --> 00:57:36.801
And unfortunately, there was a circumventing of process to where the warrant

00:57:36.801 --> 00:57:39.761
went straight from the detective to the judge.

00:57:39.761 --> 00:57:45.501
It circumvented the district attorney process. So just kind of contextualizing

00:57:45.501 --> 00:57:50.781
that, that the warrant that was issued by Denver was the catalyst of what took place.

00:57:50.921 --> 00:57:55.541
So this warrant was issued. He was named in the warrant, but it wasn't substantiated

00:57:55.541 --> 00:57:56.841
through process and due process.

00:57:57.201 --> 00:58:03.401
Denver reached out to Aurora to execute the warrant because Kilyn lived in the city of Aurora.

00:58:03.781 --> 00:58:11.401
And so the Aurora SWAT team and also Denver police surveilled Kilyn for two days.

00:58:12.666 --> 00:58:20.486
And eventually they went to pursue him for the arrest and they pulled up in non-marked vehicles.

00:58:20.486 --> 00:58:26.726
And there were at least 12 officers on the scene initially that were screaming

00:58:26.726 --> 00:58:30.206
out commands to Kylin telling him to get on the ground, etc.

00:58:30.266 --> 00:58:33.226
So it was definitely the element of surprise.

00:58:33.466 --> 00:58:38.706
Kylin was trying to figure out what was going on and he was getting groceries out of his car.

00:58:38.706 --> 00:58:44.886
By the time he was able to yield for the police, he had a cell phone in his

00:58:44.886 --> 00:58:49.386
hand and he also had a snack in his hand and he was raising his hands in surrender

00:58:49.386 --> 00:58:51.886
and he was going down to his knees.

00:58:52.106 --> 00:58:56.926
And unfortunately, Officer Michael Deke of the Aurora SWAT team shot him one

00:58:56.926 --> 00:59:02.486
time in the abdomen and that was a fatal shot. So Kylin Lewis was killed by

00:59:02.486 --> 00:59:04.146
the Aurora Police SWAT team.

00:59:04.346 --> 00:59:10.206
And the catalyst of that incident was through a faulty warrant by the Denver police.

00:59:10.786 --> 00:59:14.246
So because in Georgia,

00:59:14.246 --> 00:59:20.186
the way it works is that if the Atlanta police wanted to arrest somebody in

00:59:20.186 --> 00:59:24.866
East Point and they solicited East Point's help,

00:59:24.866 --> 00:59:29.786
It's like the East Point officers will have to go before the Fulton County Sheriff,

00:59:30.226 --> 00:59:36.806
be deputized, and then they could make the arrest at that point if the person

00:59:36.806 --> 00:59:39.626
that Atlanta was looking for resided in East Point.

00:59:39.846 --> 00:59:48.806
Is there a similar process in Colorado where, you know, who gave the Aurora

00:59:48.806 --> 00:59:53.046
police the authority to execute the warrant?

00:59:53.046 --> 00:59:58.926
Was it just the Denver police or did they have to go through a process to be able to do that?

00:59:59.886 --> 01:00:03.306
Yeah, great question, Erik. From what I understand, jurisdictional control does

01:00:03.306 --> 01:00:08.346
not require for sheriff's involvement or deputization purposes.

01:00:09.417 --> 01:00:13.597
Seemingly is a relationship between these adjacent jurisdictions.

01:00:13.597 --> 01:00:20.077
So it was essentially just a phone call from or an outreach from Denver to Aurora.

01:00:20.317 --> 01:00:27.797
And I believe that the chief of police or authoritative commanders or whatnot

01:00:27.797 --> 01:00:30.917
have to make the decision to accept the warrant.

01:00:30.977 --> 01:00:36.077
But there isn't any kind of, you know, intentional process that requires for

01:00:36.077 --> 01:00:40.857
there to be some type of deputization or something formalized for that jurisdictional control.

01:00:41.077 --> 01:00:46.237
From what I understand, it is just simply an outreach and an agreement of that

01:00:46.237 --> 01:00:47.437
jurisdictional control.

01:00:47.637 --> 01:00:52.317
And because Kylin was going to be arrested in the city of Aurora,

01:00:52.777 --> 01:00:58.297
that is where Aurora then became an authority that was able to arrest him.

01:00:58.437 --> 01:01:04.097
But as far as the intent in the will through the warrant, It was issued by Denver,

01:01:04.157 --> 01:01:10.377
and Denver made an outreach to Aurora, and they accepted that call to execute the warrant.

01:01:10.537 --> 01:01:14.697
And the surveillance piece is also something that is extremely troubling because

01:01:14.697 --> 01:01:18.257
that surveillance component for two days.

01:01:18.857 --> 01:01:23.837
From what we understand, that would have given both Denver police and Aurora

01:01:23.837 --> 01:01:31.337
police the opportunity to know if Kylin was armed at the time or if he had anything on his person.

01:01:31.337 --> 01:01:34.797
And he didn't have a firearm at all.

01:01:34.857 --> 01:01:37.217
He had a cell phone in his neck and was coming from the store.

01:01:37.717 --> 01:01:43.837
Yeah, and I kind of misspoke. What I meant to say was that if in that similar

01:01:43.837 --> 01:01:49.117
situation, the sheriff would have had to deputize somebody from Atlanta to go into East Point.

01:01:49.717 --> 01:01:54.077
So in that case, somebody from Denver would have to have been given the authority

01:01:54.077 --> 01:01:56.857
to go to Aurora and make the arrest.

01:01:57.037 --> 01:02:00.717
But you're basically saying it was just kind of like a phone call.

01:02:00.717 --> 01:02:06.017
So there may be an MOU, as we call it, to where it's an understanding because

01:02:06.017 --> 01:02:08.677
a lot of police departments do that.

01:02:08.877 --> 01:02:15.317
But that is a concern about why it was a SWAT team and not just,

01:02:15.337 --> 01:02:20.777
you know, regular patrol officers, especially since it was a warrant. But, yeah.

01:02:21.757 --> 01:02:28.677
So in the middle of that, there was a transition going on with the Aurora Police Department.

01:02:30.657 --> 01:02:35.797
And there's a new chief there So, first of all, what has happened to the officer

01:02:35.797 --> 01:02:38.797
that shot and killed Mr. Lewis?

01:02:39.577 --> 01:02:44.997
And how has the new chief coming into the middle of all that,

01:02:45.197 --> 01:02:46.657
how has that chief responded?

01:02:47.793 --> 01:02:53.433
So Michael Deke was the officer that shot Kylin and after a grand jury,

01:02:53.433 --> 01:02:57.893
he will not be formally charged. He is back on the police.

01:02:58.133 --> 01:03:00.033
He is back with the Aurora police.

01:03:00.413 --> 01:03:05.973
And the investigation that the Aurora police did justified, well,

01:03:06.113 --> 01:03:13.193
I'll say their investigation offered language to attempt to justify the shooting

01:03:13.193 --> 01:03:15.833
of Kylin, but they are calling it a just shooting.

01:03:15.833 --> 01:03:19.193
So Officer Michael Deke did not experience any reprimand.

01:03:19.653 --> 01:03:23.673
And there was the new chief of police by the name of Todd Chamberlain,

01:03:23.693 --> 01:03:26.893
who was sworn in as the permanent chief of police.

01:03:27.093 --> 01:03:32.393
Aurora has experienced this interim leadership for quite some time.

01:03:32.393 --> 01:03:37.833
So Todd Chamberlain is now the permanent chief of police, and he has an interesting

01:03:37.833 --> 01:03:40.173
checkered past as it pertains to the Black community.

01:03:40.433 --> 01:03:42.753
But his response has not been ideal.

01:03:43.393 --> 01:03:49.773
Our organization kind of led the opportunity for Todd Chamberlain to come and

01:03:49.773 --> 01:03:54.933
speak to community and answer some questions because there were a lot of curiosities around his hiring.

01:03:55.253 --> 01:04:00.633
There was no community involvement in his hiring. And when he was sworn in as

01:04:00.633 --> 01:04:04.933
the permanent chief of police, they strategically and intentionally did that

01:04:04.933 --> 01:04:07.333
in the middle of the day at 3 p.m.

01:04:07.453 --> 01:04:11.313
Where community couldn't even come out to watch the swearing and ceremony.

01:04:11.313 --> 01:04:15.813
So it was very clear that they were not looking for community engagement.

01:04:16.213 --> 01:04:21.453
And one of the main questions that we had for Todd Chamberlain is why would

01:04:21.453 --> 01:04:27.793
you accept a position where you know that community is not involved in that process?

01:04:28.153 --> 01:04:33.013
Because one of the things that he said in his acceptance of the position is

01:04:33.013 --> 01:04:34.713
that he understands what it looks

01:04:34.713 --> 01:04:39.053
like when policing does not involve community and how it can go wrong.

01:04:39.333 --> 01:04:43.313
And so with that understanding, we were very curious on why would you take this

01:04:43.313 --> 01:04:45.633
position because community wasn't involved at all.

01:04:45.813 --> 01:04:48.693
So it has not been a very...

01:04:49.801 --> 01:04:55.141
Has not been a trusting space. Todd Chamberlain absolutely inherited a policing

01:04:55.141 --> 01:05:00.481
system that broke the trust of the community year over year, time over time.

01:05:00.881 --> 01:05:05.421
And he perpetuated that just in the way that he accepted this position.

01:05:05.421 --> 01:05:11.521
So I'm not sure that he has the strategies in place to create trust or to even

01:05:11.521 --> 01:05:15.241
start to rebuild trust because we have not seen that from him.

01:05:15.281 --> 01:05:19.841
And even with the outreaches from the community that we've helped to create

01:05:19.841 --> 01:05:23.661
and design, he's been reluctant to lean into those spaces.

01:05:24.941 --> 01:05:31.461
So for the listeners' sake, if y'all remember, and I've had Sister MiDian come

01:05:31.461 --> 01:05:37.161
on before, and then she actually submitted a statement to keep us updated on what happened.

01:05:37.361 --> 01:05:41.081
This is the same city where Elijah McCall was killed by the police.

01:05:41.801 --> 01:05:46.041
So it's Elijah McClain. McClain, I'm sorry. Yeah. forgive me,

01:05:46.521 --> 01:05:49.681
Elijah McClain was killed by the police and the paramedics.

01:05:50.941 --> 01:06:01.421
And MiDian has been kind of the spokesperson for the McClain family and really

01:06:01.421 --> 01:06:03.801
was kind of keeping us updated on that situation.

01:06:03.941 --> 01:06:07.901
So this is the same city, y'all. This is what I'm trying to say. It's the same city.

01:06:08.061 --> 01:06:10.481
Now it's a different police chief. But.

01:06:11.875 --> 01:06:17.815
Since then, I guess the city has fallen under a consent decree,

01:06:18.095 --> 01:06:21.495
and I want you to explain how that works, too.

01:06:21.755 --> 01:06:25.895
But just to give a dynamic, when MiDian is talking about community,

01:06:26.395 --> 01:06:32.795
this city is 59 percent white, 13 percent black and 20 percent Latino.

01:06:32.795 --> 01:06:39.955
You know, the new chief, when Donald Trump, Mr.

01:06:40.075 --> 01:06:44.555
Chamberlain, when Donald Trump showed up dealing with, you know,

01:06:44.675 --> 01:06:50.135
trying to make an issue about the Venezuelan gangs taking over apartments and all that stuff.

01:06:50.275 --> 01:06:54.455
He literally had a rally in Aurora, Colorado, and this chief,

01:06:54.655 --> 01:07:01.675
who was relatively new, decided that he wanted to have a job fair at a Trump rally.

01:07:01.675 --> 01:07:08.295
So just knowing the crowds that show up at Trump rallies, he wanted to have

01:07:08.295 --> 01:07:13.435
a job fair to recruit potential police officers at the Trump rally.

01:07:14.035 --> 01:07:18.475
So when when system at the end is talk about trust in the community,

01:07:18.775 --> 01:07:26.035
these are the kind of things that, you know, would bring concern to to to at

01:07:26.035 --> 01:07:27.695
least the black community for sure.

01:07:27.695 --> 01:07:30.795
Now, you can correct me on anything I've said.

01:07:30.975 --> 01:07:38.135
You can explain on all that stuff, but just kind of start with a consent decree and work from there.

01:07:38.995 --> 01:07:45.515
Absolutely. So the city of Aurora and the Colorado Attorney General's office

01:07:45.515 --> 01:07:51.175
actually formally went into a legally binding agreement called the consent decree,

01:07:51.175 --> 01:07:56.855
and it followed the investigation into Elijah McClain's death.

01:07:57.661 --> 01:08:02.781
And broader findings of systemic misconduct by the Aurora police.

01:08:03.081 --> 01:08:11.501
So it was designed to offer reform to the Aurora police and fire rescue.

01:08:11.681 --> 01:08:13.661
Sometimes we'll leave that piece out.

01:08:14.241 --> 01:08:19.561
And it was based on the systemic impacts and harms that the police have been

01:08:19.561 --> 01:08:23.641
doing to the community and then also the inadequate medical care that we were

01:08:23.641 --> 01:08:24.961
seeing from fire and rescue.

01:08:24.961 --> 01:08:33.141
So, what it requires is policy changes, better training, independent oversight,

01:08:33.261 --> 01:08:37.921
and improved accountability measures coming from both of those entities.

01:08:38.301 --> 01:08:45.441
And the way that it's enforced is a court-appointed independent monitor ensures

01:08:45.441 --> 01:08:49.041
compliance with periodic public reporting.

01:08:49.041 --> 01:08:55.041
So we get the progress reports that come out and it'll offer details about how

01:08:55.041 --> 01:09:01.141
close into compliance the Aurora Police and Fire Rescue are pertaining to what

01:09:01.141 --> 01:09:06.721
was outlined in the consent decree and how much they need to continue to navigate in.

01:09:06.721 --> 01:09:11.841
And so they'll also, during those progress report updates, they will identify

01:09:11.841 --> 01:09:19.861
incidents that align to questions and additional calls for review based on the

01:09:19.861 --> 01:09:21.141
oversights that are there.

01:09:21.261 --> 01:09:28.021
So there is a force forward review team that is designed to look into things

01:09:28.021 --> 01:09:31.621
that are happening and continuing to happen with the Aurora Police or Fire Rescue.

01:09:31.621 --> 01:09:37.681
And interestingly enough, Kylin Lewis was a part of this last update because

01:09:37.681 --> 01:09:43.621
they actually outlined how this use of force was outside of the compliance of the consent decree.

01:09:44.562 --> 01:09:48.942
And that that board, that force, the use of force board is supposed to then

01:09:48.942 --> 01:09:55.742
gain insight and they offer questions that the police then has to answer once

01:09:55.742 --> 01:09:58.062
they start to uncover the things that happen.

01:09:58.062 --> 01:10:04.102
So the ultimate goal is to improve public trust of these two entities,

01:10:04.102 --> 01:10:08.182
to reduce the racial disparities that we are seeing in policing,

01:10:08.182 --> 01:10:14.362
and also ensure constitutional and humane treatment for the residents of Aurora.

01:10:15.342 --> 01:10:21.302
But I'll tell you, honestly, Erik, when people talk about or bring up the consent decree,

01:10:21.642 --> 01:10:26.642
there has now been a shift in the narrative where the community is looking now

01:10:26.642 --> 01:10:31.082
at the attorney general's office and we're letting them know that they are laughing in your face.

01:10:31.242 --> 01:10:35.542
This legally binding agreement that you claim to have that is supposed to be

01:10:35.542 --> 01:10:41.322
driving this reform is starting to become very evident that this is very performative.

01:10:41.322 --> 01:10:43.982
You can write down on paper what's happening.

01:10:44.242 --> 01:10:48.862
You can tell us about the use of force. We know the disparities because our community is living it.

01:10:48.962 --> 01:10:53.842
So we don't need anything that is written on a piece of paper to let us know that this is happening.

01:10:54.002 --> 01:11:00.042
What we actually need to see are the mechanisms and the practicality of how

01:11:00.042 --> 01:11:04.702
this consent decree is supposed to move from concept into practice,

01:11:04.702 --> 01:11:07.482
because that is not happening in current state.

01:11:07.482 --> 01:11:10.522
So what has been the action?

01:11:10.782 --> 01:11:16.242
What has the community been doing? I've seen, you know, some pictures of members

01:11:16.242 --> 01:11:19.082
of the community at the city council meetings and all that.

01:11:19.242 --> 01:11:23.742
What are the action steps for taking it to specifically with Mr.

01:11:23.902 --> 01:11:28.662
Lewis and then in dealing with this consent decree and trying to get it?

01:11:29.502 --> 01:11:34.962
Put some teeth into it, I guess. Absolutely. So specifically to Kylin,

01:11:35.202 --> 01:11:36.322
the movement for Kylin Lewis.

01:11:36.882 --> 01:11:40.722
The images, the video, and all of that that you've seen at city council,

01:11:41.002 --> 01:11:45.642
that's been at the core of the action that the community has taken.

01:11:45.862 --> 01:11:50.702
We've decided to leverage the city council meetings and their public comment

01:11:50.702 --> 01:11:56.382
segments to ensure that we continue to keep Kylin's name alive and active in

01:11:56.382 --> 01:11:59.602
front of the leaders that are guiding the city of Aurora.

01:11:59.942 --> 01:12:04.422
The city of Aurora is city council controlled. It does not have mayoral control.

01:12:04.622 --> 01:12:09.682
So that simply means that the city council and the city manager are the ones

01:12:09.682 --> 01:12:14.162
that actually would be responsible, be responsible to the authoritative parties over the police.

01:12:14.462 --> 01:12:17.682
In a lot of cities, it's the mayor, but in Aurora, it's the city council.

01:12:18.182 --> 01:12:24.822
So we've continued to leverage that platform. And we've infiltrated every single

01:12:24.822 --> 01:12:30.282
meeting since June of 2024. And we're going to continue to do that as we navigate

01:12:30.282 --> 01:12:31.862
and we walk alongside the family.

01:12:32.302 --> 01:12:37.202
Additionally, we are making sure that Kylin's family has access to our legislators,

01:12:37.542 --> 01:12:43.642
has access to the ACLU, and has access to any of the outlets that will ensure

01:12:43.642 --> 01:12:45.622
that this story continues to be amplified.

01:12:45.962 --> 01:12:53.762
Because with them not charging Michael Deke with killing Kylin and allowing for

01:12:53.762 --> 01:12:57.982
there to be some reprimands, we now know and understand that this is going to

01:12:57.982 --> 01:12:59.462
have to come through a different lens.

01:12:59.802 --> 01:13:05.202
So the family is definitely well incubated in the process.

01:13:05.682 --> 01:13:08.542
And interestingly enough, Kylin's mother lives in Georgia.

01:13:08.822 --> 01:13:14.502
She flies out to Colorado once a month to continue the fight and the advocacy.

01:13:14.502 --> 01:13:18.662
So we continue to take her lead and the lead of the family that is here in Aurora.

01:13:19.122 --> 01:13:23.982
And we also are doing rallies and we're doing marches and doing all of it in peace.

01:13:24.722 --> 01:13:28.002
And some of us have been arrested in the process.

01:13:28.182 --> 01:13:31.922
I mean, we've been, you know, kind of met by the Aurora police at every pass

01:13:31.922 --> 01:13:36.442
because they know and understand that continued exposure is going to be the

01:13:36.442 --> 01:13:38.622
way that justice will have to be sought for Kylin.

01:13:39.062 --> 01:13:44.122
The consent decree itself, we have, so Phil Weiser is currently our attorney

01:13:44.122 --> 01:13:46.902
general, and he just put his bid in for governor.

01:13:47.162 --> 01:13:52.842
So we are taking this time as he is trying to navigate a different season of leadership.

01:13:52.842 --> 01:13:59.742
We are taking this time to ensure that he understands that you are a name that

01:13:59.742 --> 01:14:04.322
is affiliated with the lack of reform through this consent decree.

01:14:04.322 --> 01:14:07.662
And he's going to have to reckon with that if he's trying to navigate into a

01:14:07.662 --> 01:14:09.962
bigger space of leadership for our state.

01:14:10.162 --> 01:14:13.182
So it's a lot of work, Erik. It's a lot of work. It's.

01:14:14.072 --> 01:14:19.232
It's really hard to watch the families that we continue to walk alongside go through these things.

01:14:19.912 --> 01:14:26.012
You know, as we talked about, the consent decree was created and it exists because

01:14:26.012 --> 01:14:28.412
of the investigation around Elijah McClain.

01:14:28.632 --> 01:14:36.052
Well, sadly enough, the officer and the paramedic that were convicted in that

01:14:36.052 --> 01:14:39.632
trial, the officer has never reported to jail.

01:14:40.152 --> 01:14:45.312
His sentence was a 14-month work release, and that meant that he was supposed

01:14:45.312 --> 01:14:49.792
to spend nights and weekends in jail for 14 months. Well, he's never reported to jail.

01:14:50.152 --> 01:14:54.112
He's doing an appeal process, and his appeal doesn't even start until October.

01:14:54.272 --> 01:15:01.472
So he continues to just live out his life without any type of repercussion or disruption at all.

01:15:01.892 --> 01:15:07.032
And Peter Shakuniak, who was the paramedic that was convicted to five years

01:15:07.032 --> 01:15:11.152
in prison, Well, the judge in the case has decided that that's too excessive.

01:15:11.392 --> 01:15:16.292
And so now he is simply out on probation and he's on probation for four years.

01:15:16.572 --> 01:15:21.092
So, again, gets to go back in and be implemented into community while Sheneen

01:15:21.092 --> 01:15:26.832
McClain, the mother of Elijah, has to grapple with the fact that these individuals

01:15:26.832 --> 01:15:30.372
are still in the same community that she has to call home.

01:15:31.012 --> 01:15:35.252
That's impossible, right? That's impossible. So those are the things that we

01:15:35.252 --> 01:15:39.592
continue to put in front of the leadership here in Colorado to let them know

01:15:39.592 --> 01:15:44.592
that we are not going to sit idly by and watch this continue to be performative.

01:15:44.592 --> 01:15:46.112
We will continue to take to the

01:15:46.112 --> 01:15:49.452
streets because the fight for justice is always a fight that's worth it.

01:15:49.892 --> 01:15:57.352
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, again, I appreciated you getting something to

01:15:57.352 --> 01:16:01.692
me that I could read on the podcast That's dealing with the,

01:16:01.692 --> 01:16:04.572
I guess, the commuting of the sentence.

01:16:04.812 --> 01:16:08.612
I guess that's the legal term, which I never knew that a judge.

01:16:08.812 --> 01:16:12.432
Well, I guess in Colorado they can do that. I don't know if there's any other

01:16:12.432 --> 01:16:18.332
states that they probably are that you send somebody and then, you know.

01:16:19.072 --> 01:16:25.192
Then you have a change of heart and say, well, 10 months is equal to five years and I'll let you go.

01:16:25.392 --> 01:16:29.112
I had never heard that before. I'm sure there's a lot of folks that wish they

01:16:29.112 --> 01:16:31.632
had that kind of luxury, especially those that look like us.

01:16:31.752 --> 01:16:33.632
But that would be another show.

01:16:34.392 --> 01:16:40.352
And I just want, you know, Miss McClain and all those in the Lewis family and

01:16:40.352 --> 01:16:45.872
all those other folks to know that we're in solidarity with you and we're in prayer.

01:16:46.652 --> 01:16:50.812
And, you know, it's just it's bad enough to deal with the loss of a loved one.

01:16:50.992 --> 01:16:55.032
But when injustice is tied into it, it really makes it a challenge.

01:16:55.032 --> 01:17:00.232
And so I'm just glad that there's sisters like you out there that's helping them out.

01:17:01.631 --> 01:17:06.231
Let's talk about this, this whole thing with this Venezuelan gang.

01:17:07.171 --> 01:17:10.991
So Aurora got into national news during the political election,

01:17:11.111 --> 01:17:15.491
the presidential election, because Donald Trump said that there was this Venezuelan

01:17:15.491 --> 01:17:19.811
gang and they took over an apartment complex and he showed up.

01:17:20.031 --> 01:17:25.411
And like I said, the chief of police did a job rally there, you know.

01:17:25.991 --> 01:17:31.451
And, you know, and, and, and the ironic thing is, is that Aurora.

01:17:31.631 --> 01:17:36.231
Voted Democratic. They voted for the vice president in the election,

01:17:36.331 --> 01:17:42.111
even with all this hate mongering that Trump brought out there.

01:17:42.271 --> 01:17:47.531
What is the situation now from what I understand as we are recording is that

01:17:47.531 --> 01:17:50.411
ICE has made its presence there.

01:17:50.571 --> 01:17:55.851
Now they're actually physically in Aurora trying to arrest people. What's going on?

01:17:56.411 --> 01:18:02.431
Yes, they are absolutely 100% active and they are targeting some of those areas

01:18:02.431 --> 01:18:09.331
that were said to have been infiltrated and taken over by the Tren de Aragua Venezuelan gang.

01:18:09.611 --> 01:18:18.471
So it seems as if they are masking this under some type of DEA involvement,

01:18:18.471 --> 01:18:24.571
because I'm assuming that the DEA gets to move differently than ICE does in our cities and states.

01:18:24.951 --> 01:18:31.471
So as they are going into these living, into the apartment complexes,

01:18:31.751 --> 01:18:38.671
these homes, the schools, et cetera, they are asking people if they have drugs on their possession.

01:18:39.271 --> 01:18:41.011
If there are drugs in their home.

01:18:41.391 --> 01:18:46.651
And that I think is what they are leveraging in order to justify their presence.

01:18:47.011 --> 01:18:52.611
What we saw happen just two days ago was probably the most egregious that we've

01:18:52.611 --> 01:18:57.091
seen since this, you know, Venezuelan takeover rhetoric started.

01:18:57.451 --> 01:19:06.191
So two days ago, you had like military style engagement with folks in the city.

01:19:06.311 --> 01:19:10.611
There were staging areas. They were knocking down doors without permission.

01:19:10.991 --> 01:19:19.631
They were detaining people at schools, parents at schools, and they were also arresting people.

01:19:19.811 --> 01:19:25.251
I believe there is about, I want to say we're in the hundreds now of individuals

01:19:25.251 --> 01:19:26.331
that have been arrested.

01:19:26.751 --> 01:19:31.511
And from what I understand, there's been one person that has an affiliation

01:19:31.511 --> 01:19:33.131
with Tren de Aragua, allegedly.

01:19:33.511 --> 01:19:40.051
And our news outlets continue to work to identify who is it that is being detained,

01:19:40.051 --> 01:19:41.971
what is their affiliation, and what.

01:19:43.312 --> 01:19:47.352
Because a lot of these individuals haven't even been charged with anything.

01:19:48.052 --> 01:19:52.032
So, and that's as we're recording, for my knowledge, we have not seen,

01:19:52.172 --> 01:19:54.552
you know, the charges that are coming down and things like that.

01:19:54.712 --> 01:20:00.232
And then when they were interviewing someone that had did a raid back on the

01:20:00.232 --> 01:20:03.592
26th of January, there was another raid through,

01:20:03.812 --> 01:20:08.232
again, the masking of DEA and ICE at a nightclub in Adams City,

01:20:08.412 --> 01:20:10.412
which sits in Commerce City.

01:20:10.412 --> 01:20:13.472
They said that when they walked

01:20:13.472 --> 01:20:16.232
into that space the moment they

01:20:16.232 --> 01:20:19.112
turned the lights on all of a sudden the drugs fell

01:20:19.112 --> 01:20:22.912
on the floor so they weren't able to associate that

01:20:22.912 --> 01:20:29.552
back with anyone specifically inside of the facility so you know just the the

01:20:29.552 --> 01:20:34.392
the commentary that we're getting Erik it's just it's it's disgusting right

01:20:34.392 --> 01:20:39.812
I mean it's it's obvious that this is something that is being done intentionally

01:20:39.812 --> 01:20:41.832
to target a specific community.

01:20:42.132 --> 01:20:48.452
And the way that people are being paraded, the way they are parading those that

01:20:48.452 --> 01:20:55.732
are being taken into buses and taken away, it's just really, really disgusting.

01:20:56.212 --> 01:21:02.732
And it does come from, and it stems from the rhetoric that came from City Council,

01:21:03.012 --> 01:21:03.992
the Aurora City Council.

01:21:04.432 --> 01:21:09.932
Councilwoman Danielle Jerinsky was the author, essentially, of what we're seeing

01:21:09.932 --> 01:21:15.152
because she was the one that created a lot of the rhetoric,

01:21:15.412 --> 01:21:19.692
put it in front of individuals that were able to fan the flame.

01:21:19.992 --> 01:21:25.332
And she also was at the Donald Trump rally that was out here in Aurora when he came.

01:21:25.512 --> 01:21:31.092
So that Operation Aurora that we heard Donald Trump spewing during his campaign

01:21:31.092 --> 01:21:37.352
and his promises and his campaign, it really did stem from Councilwoman Danielle Jerinsky,

01:21:37.812 --> 01:21:43.792
banned by other members of our state that sadly enough sit in the Republican Party.

01:21:44.052 --> 01:21:46.772
You know, I'm unaffiliated, but I mean, that's just the fact.

01:21:46.932 --> 01:21:50.892
These are individuals that are associating themselves intentionally with the

01:21:50.892 --> 01:21:53.612
Republican Party, and they're the ones that created this narrative.

01:21:53.932 --> 01:21:58.392
And now we're here. We're watching people being paraded off,

01:21:58.452 --> 01:22:01.512
and we're We're watching children having to be pulled out of school.

01:22:01.932 --> 01:22:06.172
We're watching people not being willing and being afraid to go to work because

01:22:06.172 --> 01:22:07.972
what is happening with these raids.

01:22:08.832 --> 01:22:14.972
So what is what has been the impact besides people not going to work?

01:22:15.132 --> 01:22:21.032
So is now not not as many people are out and about.

01:22:21.492 --> 01:22:28.312
I mean, what is there some kind of tension in the air? And and let me well, let me just ask this.

01:22:29.192 --> 01:22:33.932
You know, one of the things, because you've been doing this work a long time,

01:22:34.052 --> 01:22:38.252
and one of the things that has kind of, some of the fallout that's happened

01:22:38.252 --> 01:22:40.852
from this election has been...

01:22:42.179 --> 01:22:45.839
Lot of black folks are saying, you know what, you know, y'all do you,

01:22:45.999 --> 01:22:50.619
we're going to take care of us and, you know, and let it be.

01:22:51.279 --> 01:22:55.379
But when you see it happening in front of you, our instinct is.

01:22:56.139 --> 01:22:58.119
Well, we got to, we got to help some kind of way.

01:22:58.239 --> 01:23:02.039
I know we said we weren't going to do it, but we got to get involved.

01:23:02.179 --> 01:23:05.399
We got to, we can't let the injustice happen in front of our face.

01:23:05.559 --> 01:23:11.959
What What is what has been the black community's response to what they're seeing

01:23:11.959 --> 01:23:16.019
now in Aurora dealing with Venezuelan and just immigrants, period,

01:23:16.299 --> 01:23:18.839
because they're not just targeting Venezuelans.

01:23:18.919 --> 01:23:22.599
If they only arrested one person and that one person has to be pretty bad or

01:23:22.599 --> 01:23:27.139
that one person took over a whole apartment complex, it would seem like it'd be multiple people.

01:23:27.139 --> 01:23:33.359
So if you've only arrested one, anyway, what's been the Black community's response

01:23:33.359 --> 01:23:39.679
to what they're seeing and how are y'all as activists moving in this process?

01:23:40.039 --> 01:23:43.699
Yeah, absolutely. And so I'll definitely, you know, speak for myself and those

01:23:43.699 --> 01:23:44.639
that I'm partnering with.

01:23:44.899 --> 01:23:48.479
You know, there's there's a lot of individuals that are going to find themselves

01:23:48.479 --> 01:23:53.359
trying to navigate this just individually as a neighbor and then also wherever,

01:23:53.739 --> 01:23:55.979
you know, you your work is lived out.

01:23:55.979 --> 01:24:01.539
So for myself and others that I'm partnering with, we are really working to

01:24:01.539 --> 01:24:04.139
ensure that we find our place in this.

01:24:04.299 --> 01:24:10.099
We are working to ensure that we are not speaking over, but we are speaking up.

01:24:10.099 --> 01:24:16.819
We understand and we acknowledge that when we say ICE and ICE raids,

01:24:17.179 --> 01:24:19.939
it is very easy to target that to the Latino.

01:24:20.439 --> 01:24:26.339
That is the community that is seemingly taking this blow the worst.

01:24:26.339 --> 01:24:33.959
And so we are ensuring that we're creating spaces for those voices to come to know their rights.

01:24:34.179 --> 01:24:39.899
We are creating spaces to ensure that people are able to be equipped with information

01:24:39.899 --> 01:24:43.059
to where if you're standing in that space, you can help immediately.

01:24:43.699 --> 01:24:48.559
Shorter AME, which is one of the oldest Black churches in the state of Colorado,

01:24:48.859 --> 01:24:52.539
they actually did a series of Know Your Rights trainings.

01:24:52.919 --> 01:24:58.159
And their capacity in the church seats 1,000, and they were over capacity at

01:24:58.159 --> 01:24:59.679
this last training that took place.

01:24:59.719 --> 01:25:03.499
So we are seeing people come out from different spaces, different communities,

01:25:03.739 --> 01:25:05.299
different lived experiences.

01:25:05.299 --> 01:25:10.639
And for the Black community in particular, we know and we understand that we

01:25:10.639 --> 01:25:15.199
have a historic resilience that's been lived out publicly in this country.

01:25:15.199 --> 01:25:19.499
So we understand and acknowledge that we do have some of the skill sets that

01:25:19.499 --> 01:25:23.759
can really align with what is needed and what is necessary for us.

01:25:24.102 --> 01:25:27.482
We are creating spaces to where we are open to that.

01:25:27.722 --> 01:25:31.102
But again, making sure that we are following the lead of those that are being

01:25:31.102 --> 01:25:37.942
impacted by this the most and making sure also that we are intentionally going

01:25:37.942 --> 01:25:43.302
to identify and find those that are a part of our Black community to say, hey,

01:25:43.442 --> 01:25:47.182
we want to make sure that you're heard as well and that you are seen as well.

01:25:47.182 --> 01:25:51.742
Because the immigration component, the narrative is around the Latin community,

01:25:51.742 --> 01:25:54.222
but we also understand that there are African immigrants.

01:25:54.402 --> 01:25:58.382
You know, there are, you know, immigrants from our AAPI brothers and sisters,

01:25:58.382 --> 01:26:01.922
and we want to make sure that they know that these are spaces for them as well.

01:26:02.062 --> 01:26:07.702
And as the movements and the protests and the demonstrations are done.

01:26:08.082 --> 01:26:14.022
We are continuing to make sure that leaders that are in that space are leaving room for all voices.

01:26:14.142 --> 01:26:17.842
If we start to silo voices, This is just going to get worse.

01:26:18.162 --> 01:26:23.222
And that's something that we continue as activists in our community to remind

01:26:23.222 --> 01:26:27.882
ourselves of and remind each other and to remind our community that we have

01:26:27.882 --> 01:26:29.602
to figure out how to do this together.

01:26:29.602 --> 01:26:36.882
And once we identify those ways that this alignment starts to become cultivated,

01:26:37.202 --> 01:26:42.962
I think we actually are going to be creating a sustainability so that way when

01:26:42.962 --> 01:26:47.142
we move beyond this moment and when we survive and we win this out,

01:26:47.262 --> 01:26:50.822
because history shows us that it's always those that are on the side of justice

01:26:50.822 --> 01:26:56.382
that win, we are starting to have conversations now about what does it look

01:26:56.382 --> 01:26:57.962
like for this to be sustainable.

01:26:57.962 --> 01:27:00.122
So we don't find ourselves here again.

01:27:00.802 --> 01:27:04.082
Oh, that is so hardening for me to hear.

01:27:05.288 --> 01:27:11.388
Because, you know, well, I don't want to prolong this too long, but I just, you know,

01:27:11.608 --> 01:27:16.568
one of the challenges that we have always had as Black folks in this country

01:27:16.568 --> 01:27:22.908
is being able to fight for what we need.

01:27:23.428 --> 01:27:28.648
But we have also kind of assumed this role as being the conscience of the nation. Right.

01:27:29.248 --> 01:27:36.968
And so I equated to the role that we as a country have accepted in the world. Right.

01:27:37.468 --> 01:27:40.828
It's like after World War Two, we were given a charge to like,

01:27:40.968 --> 01:27:44.808
look, when when stuff's going down, I know we've created this United Nations.

01:27:45.368 --> 01:27:49.208
But when stuff really goes down, we need the United States to step in.

01:27:49.488 --> 01:27:51.688
Right. And a lot of people don't like that.

01:27:52.328 --> 01:27:57.948
And but when you look at internally in the United States, Black people have

01:27:57.948 --> 01:27:59.128
that same responsibility.

01:27:59.688 --> 01:28:07.868
When injustice happens, it's either we step in or we're asked to step in.

01:28:08.808 --> 01:28:16.128
And, you know, and just the thought that you expressed in that answer and the

01:28:16.128 --> 01:28:21.128
optimism that even though we're dealing with some things and we're going to

01:28:21.128 --> 01:28:24.628
have to tread a little lighter than maybe we have in the past,

01:28:24.628 --> 01:28:28.128
whether it's by emotion or by circumstance,

01:28:29.008 --> 01:28:30.628
we're still going to win this thing.

01:28:30.768 --> 01:28:36.728
And then we got to figure out after we win this thing, how we come together moving forward.

01:28:36.888 --> 01:28:41.808
So you definitely expressed it better than I just did.

01:28:41.908 --> 01:28:45.628
And that's why I respect you so much.

01:28:45.948 --> 01:28:51.668
Anyway, let me close out asking you about this because this has been...

01:28:52.901 --> 01:28:57.621
Has also been part of your work as far as dealing with diversity, equity, inclusion.

01:28:58.121 --> 01:29:03.981
And we know, you know, I've said it on my podcast, I've listened to other people,

01:29:04.141 --> 01:29:11.201
other podcasters, we know that now they're using the initials DI to mean the N-word.

01:29:12.081 --> 01:29:18.241
And, you know, you have devoted some of your professional time to try to get

01:29:18.241 --> 01:29:26.041
people to understand the dynamics that diversity, equity, and inclusion is a strength in America.

01:29:26.221 --> 01:29:29.641
It's not a weakness. And especially if you're trying to move your business forward,

01:29:29.641 --> 01:29:35.221
if you want to make some money, bottom line, you need to be more open.

01:29:36.381 --> 01:29:41.601
How has that impacted you and especially your work dealing with Black history

01:29:41.601 --> 01:29:43.461
and trying, you know, Black awareness.

01:29:44.461 --> 01:29:52.161
How is this mindset that seems to have accelerated over these last three weeks

01:29:52.161 --> 01:29:59.821
impacted what you're trying to do to uplift your community and even the state of Colorado?

01:30:00.681 --> 01:30:07.601
Absolutely. So I think where, because of what we've heard in the narrative over

01:30:07.601 --> 01:30:12.961
the course of the last few weeks about DE and I, I just want to start off,

01:30:13.041 --> 01:30:15.021
Erik, by saying that diversity,

01:30:15.321 --> 01:30:17.041
equity, and inclusivity is not a product.

01:30:17.381 --> 01:30:25.841
It's not something that you buy in a box. It's not something that you can even create a brand from.

01:30:26.281 --> 01:30:29.541
Diversity, equity, and inclusivity is a destination on a journey.

01:30:29.981 --> 01:30:32.861
And so it's something that you have to pursue.

01:30:33.601 --> 01:30:40.821
And as you're in pursuit of it, you essentially have to figure out at what points

01:30:40.821 --> 01:30:47.401
do I need to disrupt the way I engage if I really truly am committed to diversity, equity, inclusivity.

01:30:48.021 --> 01:30:55.421
So I think one of the problems that we have seen with DE&I is that it has been

01:30:55.421 --> 01:30:58.021
created as this marketing tool.

01:30:58.861 --> 01:31:04.501
And so once you do that, all of a sudden you can make it a label, right?

01:31:04.621 --> 01:31:09.561
You can make it something that is tied specifically to an individual based on

01:31:09.561 --> 01:31:11.841
how they look, how they love, et cetera.

01:31:12.341 --> 01:31:17.921
So I think as we go through this part of the state that we're in,

01:31:18.261 --> 01:31:23.321
that's one of the things that my hope is, is that we as a people just simply

01:31:23.321 --> 01:31:27.721
disrupt that narrative from the start and do it for yourself,

01:31:27.721 --> 01:31:30.521
do it for the people that, you know, that you're connected with.

01:31:30.941 --> 01:31:34.761
Stop allowing DE&I to be presented to you as a product.

01:31:35.741 --> 01:31:40.881
And as it pertains to the work that I do and the impact that I'm seeing,

01:31:41.541 --> 01:31:44.301
it's always the irony that makes me.

01:31:45.736 --> 01:31:50.516
Raise my eyebrows when we're in these conversations, because it's clear that

01:31:50.516 --> 01:31:55.396
there is this effort to say DE&I is something that's bad, and we need to get

01:31:55.396 --> 01:31:57.136
rid of that, and let's weaponize it.

01:31:57.536 --> 01:32:02.596
All I'm seeing as someone that actually does create curriculum around that journey

01:32:02.596 --> 01:32:07.796
of DE&I, I'm seeing an outreach and an outcry for me more than I ever have.

01:32:08.296 --> 01:32:14.016
People are reaching out saying, we don't want to walk away from this.

01:32:14.216 --> 01:32:15.916
We want to actually lean in.

01:32:16.136 --> 01:32:21.696
And there are individuals that are now willing and ready to stand even bolder

01:32:21.696 --> 01:32:26.796
in spaces to say, we will not regress. We will not move away.

01:32:27.056 --> 01:32:32.116
We will not come off of this journey. Now, granted, there will be a large number

01:32:32.116 --> 01:32:36.956
of people that are excited to hear that DE&I is being challenged and being stripped

01:32:36.956 --> 01:32:38.836
and moved away from certain spaces.

01:32:39.196 --> 01:32:45.216
But I think that is something that all of us need to take note of. Pay attention.

01:32:45.456 --> 01:32:51.516
Pay attention to those who are willing to walk away from something that actually

01:32:51.516 --> 01:32:54.976
should be something that we all run towards, right?

01:32:55.096 --> 01:32:59.736
Pay attention to those entities, those individuals, those organizations that

01:32:59.736 --> 01:33:04.196
do that, and then start making your decisions based on what you are seeing and

01:33:04.196 --> 01:33:07.476
what you are watching from those actions and those inactions.

01:33:07.896 --> 01:33:16.296
But I will say that when you talk about DE and I as an opportunity for us to stay connected.

01:33:17.016 --> 01:33:23.716
We are the only ones that can decide if we are going to pull ourselves off of that journey.

01:33:23.896 --> 01:33:29.216
If this is your off ramp and you get off, understand what the consequences are.

01:33:29.736 --> 01:33:32.976
If this is a space where you're not going to take that off ramp,

01:33:33.336 --> 01:33:37.076
then continue to pursue it and pursue it intentionally.

01:33:37.676 --> 01:33:43.096
And if you find yourself getting off and then you realize that was the wrong

01:33:43.096 --> 01:33:48.496
route, I really truly encourage you to figure out what does it look like to get back on?

01:33:48.756 --> 01:33:53.756
I certainly hope that you find that on-ramp because there is a society of people

01:33:53.756 --> 01:33:59.436
in the majority out here that understand the importance of knowing how to live together.

01:33:59.436 --> 01:34:06.556
And for those that don't want to admit or ascribe to us living together,

01:34:06.976 --> 01:34:11.876
there's going to be senses of isolation that I'm not sure you're really ready for.

01:34:13.084 --> 01:34:17.204
I think that for the diversity, equity, and inclusivity world,

01:34:17.564 --> 01:34:20.664
my encouragement to everyone is to hold the line.

01:34:21.524 --> 01:34:26.704
If you've lost contracts at a federal level, go out there and seek those that

01:34:26.704 --> 01:34:29.444
are not tied to those dollars or those agendas.

01:34:29.764 --> 01:34:33.544
There's a lot of people. There's no scarcity in this work. There's a lot of

01:34:33.544 --> 01:34:36.524
outlets and spaces that are wanting to do this.

01:34:37.024 --> 01:34:43.524
It very well could be as small as a book club. It very well could be as large as a mass congregation.

01:34:43.964 --> 01:34:49.104
But just continue to make sure that you, as someone that is leading in this

01:34:49.104 --> 01:34:53.744
space, and you have the language and all of the things that you need to present

01:34:53.744 --> 01:34:55.844
in this space, don't stop.

01:34:56.444 --> 01:35:02.064
Don't stop. Continue to navigate. Put yourself out there. Let people know that you are committed.

01:35:02.504 --> 01:35:08.784
And for those that were waiting on organizations to show them how to lean into

01:35:08.784 --> 01:35:11.264
D, E, and I, you don't have to wait on anybody.

01:35:11.584 --> 01:35:17.624
You can pursue this and you can lean in at your own pace and do it for yourself.

01:35:18.004 --> 01:35:21.444
You don't have to wait for an organization to tell you yay or nay,

01:35:21.624 --> 01:35:24.804
because honestly, D, E, and I never showed up asking permission.

01:35:25.444 --> 01:35:28.004
It's always been something that we should have pursued.

01:35:29.304 --> 01:35:34.244
All right, ladies and gentlemen, that was MiDian Shofner.

01:35:34.924 --> 01:35:39.404
How can people get in touch with you and keep up with what's going on?

01:35:40.244 --> 01:35:43.404
Absolutely. So there are a couple of ways, but I'm just going to let you know

01:35:43.404 --> 01:35:44.984
the main way to get in touch with me.

01:35:45.164 --> 01:35:49.164
So I am the CEO of the Epitome of Black Excellence in Partnership.

01:35:49.424 --> 01:35:52.244
We are a nonprofit organization that is headquartered out

01:35:52.244 --> 01:35:55.124
of denver colorado you can go to our website our

01:35:55.124 --> 01:35:59.224
website is www.be the

01:35:59.224 --> 01:36:05.424
epitome.org just like it sounds or you can always email myself or my team you

01:36:05.424 --> 01:36:12.804
can email me at median m-i-d-i-a-n at be the epitome.org or you can email my

01:36:12.804 --> 01:36:15.744
team at info at be the epitome.org.

01:36:16.901 --> 01:36:23.921
Social media, for now, anyway, on Facebook, you can find me at midian.z.shofner.

01:36:24.501 --> 01:36:30.161
And you can also find us on Instagram, BeTheEpitomeCO.

01:36:30.501 --> 01:36:34.101
And then also on Facebook, BeTheEpitomeCO as well.

01:36:34.261 --> 01:36:37.181
And then the consulting work that I do through 8PM Consulting,

01:36:37.241 --> 01:36:41.721
you can also find me on that Instagram that way as well. So there's a few entry

01:36:41.721 --> 01:36:46.781
points and I'm always open for dialogue, for discussion, for disruption,

01:36:46.781 --> 01:36:49.101
but I'm always here for my people.

01:36:49.361 --> 01:36:52.241
So, Erik, I appreciate everything that you do.

01:36:52.381 --> 01:36:56.561
I mean, like being able to be here and talk to you every time you reach out,

01:36:56.681 --> 01:36:57.881
I'm like, Mama, I made it.

01:36:58.341 --> 01:37:00.901
So I appreciate you.

01:37:01.701 --> 01:37:05.341
Well, it's always an honor to be in your presence, sister.

01:37:05.341 --> 01:37:14.921
And I just, you know, when you know somebody is pure at heart and when you see

01:37:14.921 --> 01:37:18.921
the light around them, it's natural to gravitate to them.

01:37:19.381 --> 01:37:26.641
And I'm just, and as one soldier said to another, I'm just glad you're on our side, you know.

01:37:27.061 --> 01:37:31.221
So I appreciate you and thank you for taking the time.

01:37:31.841 --> 01:37:37.701
And, you know, anytime, you know, like, again, like I greatly appreciate you

01:37:37.701 --> 01:37:39.241
keeping us updated on things.

01:37:39.461 --> 01:37:45.361
And anytime you need to do that, just feel free and just come on. So thank you.

01:37:46.321 --> 01:37:49.561
Absolutely. Well, I appreciate it. I received the affirmation and the love,

01:37:49.701 --> 01:37:54.041
Erik. I really do. Thank you. All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:37:54.160 --> 01:38:03.920
Music.

01:38:05.761 --> 01:38:11.721
All right, and we are back. So I want to thank the Reverend John Lee Hooker Jr.

01:38:12.461 --> 01:38:17.681
And my sister in spirit, MiDian Shofner, for coming on the podcast.

01:38:18.881 --> 01:38:23.821
You can't help but love Brother Hooker. And please get his book,

01:38:24.661 --> 01:38:25.741
From the Shadow of the Blues.

01:38:25.981 --> 01:38:29.401
Please, please, please get that. and I,

01:38:30.882 --> 01:38:38.462
And Sister MiDian is always going to be, it's always good to have those true warriors out there.

01:38:39.962 --> 01:38:45.102
And it's not just, you know, rah-rah emotional type stuff.

01:38:45.302 --> 01:38:50.782
I mean, the sister is deep. She's thoughtful and strategic.

01:38:51.702 --> 01:38:56.102
And those are the leaders. When I talk about American leaders,

01:38:56.322 --> 01:38:57.962
that's what I'm talking about, right? Right.

01:38:58.682 --> 01:39:03.462
So, you know, and getting back to Reverend Hooker, just, you know,

01:39:03.542 --> 01:39:07.322
the inspiration, just a reminder to our people,

01:39:08.082 --> 01:39:15.082
young folks, that no matter how dark the journey may be, there's there's light

01:39:15.082 --> 01:39:16.882
on the other side. There's hope for you.

01:39:17.102 --> 01:39:20.482
You don't have to stay in the abyss.

01:39:21.042 --> 01:39:23.402
You know, you don't have to.

01:39:24.202 --> 01:39:29.622
So anyway, thank them for coming on. A couple of points I want to make before I get off.

01:39:30.282 --> 01:39:35.922
And I guess it's advice, steam, blowing off steam, whatever.

01:39:36.702 --> 01:39:42.582
But a couple of things. So for those of y'all who live and die with social media,

01:39:42.942 --> 01:39:49.502
right, that your whole existence in life is to be a social media activist.

01:39:50.802 --> 01:40:01.062
I think you need to check your ego and create a reflective space for you.

01:40:02.142 --> 01:40:07.502
Now, I'm not going to name names specifically, but you know who you are.

01:40:07.942 --> 01:40:13.802
And if you are within the sound of my voice, take it as constructive criticism

01:40:13.802 --> 01:40:15.582
and not as a demonization.

01:40:15.582 --> 01:40:22.622
Right even though the actions you take demonize the various people that you're

01:40:22.622 --> 01:40:25.022
going to need to win the battle right.

01:40:26.480 --> 01:40:30.680
It's going to take all of us to form a successful resistance.

01:40:30.680 --> 01:40:35.100
And when you understand that, I think that's when your reflective thing will

01:40:35.100 --> 01:40:41.960
kick in and you you'll be more precise of who you throw your vitriol at and

01:40:41.960 --> 01:40:45.620
who you embrace and camaraderie. Right.

01:40:46.160 --> 01:40:56.140
You know, if if you got on social media and you call Vice President Harris off out of her name.

01:40:56.480 --> 01:41:01.620
You probably don't need to, when you get in trouble, automatically reach out

01:41:01.620 --> 01:41:03.040
to the very folks you insulted.

01:41:03.680 --> 01:41:07.720
Because whether you agree with her policies or not, right?

01:41:08.460 --> 01:41:12.980
Policies can always be discussed. It's about the bigger picture.

01:41:13.320 --> 01:41:17.760
It's about character and integrity. Doesn't matter whether you believe in the

01:41:17.760 --> 01:41:20.160
two-party system, whatever, right?

01:41:20.360 --> 01:41:24.120
And you can vote who you want to vote for. I've always said that.

01:41:24.480 --> 01:41:31.980
But when you get to the point where your rhetoric is more vitriol than it is substantive,

01:41:32.820 --> 01:41:35.480
you probably shouldn't be the

01:41:35.480 --> 01:41:40.840
ambassador that's sent forward to try to get people on your side, right?

01:41:41.040 --> 01:41:48.020
You should step back and let somebody else who wasn't as vitriolic make the

01:41:48.020 --> 01:41:51.560
outreach appeal. It's not on you because you've been out front.

01:41:52.500 --> 01:41:56.600
Sometimes you might need to step back and let others do that work.

01:41:57.020 --> 01:42:00.580
And then when people see at the meeting, it's like, really? Yeah.

01:42:01.240 --> 01:42:07.640
And we go from there. But if you were out front and being critical of somebody

01:42:07.640 --> 01:42:11.320
Black in the Black community or somebody that the Black community is rallying

01:42:11.320 --> 01:42:14.780
around, You probably shouldn't be the person talking to black folks.

01:42:15.180 --> 01:42:17.380
Same thing. If you are...

01:42:18.775 --> 01:42:25.155
African immigrant, and you're dealing with the struggles right now that you

01:42:25.155 --> 01:42:32.075
may be sent out of the country with ICE, but you've been talking about Black Americans,

01:42:32.815 --> 01:42:38.455
you know, Native Black Americans, you know, you've been very critical of the

01:42:38.455 --> 01:42:39.955
culture and all that kind of stuff.

01:42:40.335 --> 01:42:45.475
You probably shouldn't be the one saying, hey, my brother, my sister,

01:42:45.675 --> 01:42:50.255
I need help, because you weren't calling folks, brothers, and sisters then.

01:42:50.495 --> 01:42:52.175
And that works on the other side.

01:42:52.535 --> 01:42:58.955
When we're dealing with some issues, you know, where we're going to need help,

01:42:59.835 --> 01:43:04.655
if you ostracized everybody that could help us, you probably shouldn't be the

01:43:04.655 --> 01:43:07.095
person to ask for the help.

01:43:07.555 --> 01:43:13.755
You should let somebody else that may have a little more grace to make the outreach,

01:43:13.795 --> 01:43:20.375
make the appeal. But we're so caught up in our voice has to be the one heard, right?

01:43:20.815 --> 01:43:26.195
I mean, you know, I have my podcast and I want my voice to be heard,

01:43:26.355 --> 01:43:28.695
but I'm not the voice of Black America.

01:43:30.235 --> 01:43:39.175
Not that delusional. I think I have viewpoints based on experience and facts

01:43:39.175 --> 01:43:43.355
and even training to an extent.

01:43:44.555 --> 01:43:49.155
And knowledge, but I'm not the leader.

01:43:49.515 --> 01:43:52.795
I don't think I'll ever be anointed to be the leader.

01:43:53.475 --> 01:43:57.235
Had things gone a little different in a certain election or two,

01:43:57.635 --> 01:44:03.095
I might've been in a conversation, but even at that point, I'm not trying to

01:44:03.095 --> 01:44:08.175
be the leader, the spokesperson, because our voice is not monolithic.

01:44:09.395 --> 01:44:13.035
But I do think that my voice should be heard in the discussion.

01:44:13.035 --> 01:44:18.235
And I think that once we have the discussion, we have consensus and move forward.

01:44:18.755 --> 01:44:21.415
But I'm not the voice, right?

01:44:23.055 --> 01:44:28.755
All those institutions I named, National Newspaper Publishers Association,

01:44:28.915 --> 01:44:32.035
National Association of Black Journalists, the Black Podcast Association,

01:44:32.295 --> 01:44:34.495
there are a lot of black voices out there.

01:44:35.075 --> 01:44:40.875
The two people I interviewed today are Black voices that need to be heard, right?

01:44:41.635 --> 01:44:45.595
Grace, who does the news, that's a Black voice that needs to be heard,

01:44:46.715 --> 01:44:52.915
right? We need, all of us collectively need to be heard, but we're not going to self-anoint.

01:44:54.604 --> 01:44:59.904
We may not immediately accept anybody else anointing us, right?

01:45:00.344 --> 01:45:03.264
But we got to have a common purpose. We got to have a common goal.

01:45:03.404 --> 01:45:04.584
We got to have a common focus.

01:45:06.144 --> 01:45:09.244
So I just wanted to get that off my chest because, you know,

01:45:09.344 --> 01:45:11.804
I just, it's hubris, right?

01:45:11.984 --> 01:45:20.344
It's like people just need to stop smelling themselves and just understand that

01:45:20.344 --> 01:45:24.644
every action we take has consequences, good or bad.

01:45:25.684 --> 01:45:30.544
And we have to be accountable for that.

01:45:31.044 --> 01:45:37.284
And sometimes accountability means, yeah, I made a mistake. I'm sorry.

01:45:38.324 --> 01:45:43.184
But, you know, people say, well, the president is not as important and blah, blah.

01:45:43.424 --> 01:45:46.604
Leadership matters. And if you have a leader that's never accountable,

01:45:46.604 --> 01:45:52.924
There are literally people who are on this planet that the only person they've

01:45:52.924 --> 01:45:59.224
known as president of the United States has been Donald Trump or even in their

01:45:59.224 --> 01:46:04.884
most formative years of developing a political consciousness. It's been Donald Trump.

01:46:05.304 --> 01:46:12.244
And so when you have somebody who doesn't admit to making a mistake with somebody

01:46:12.244 --> 01:46:14.344
that doesn't say I'm sorry,

01:46:14.504 --> 01:46:22.284
who never acknowledges that they may be wrong at times, who is never accountable for their actions.

01:46:23.364 --> 01:46:30.364
Leadership by example matters So, you know, that's just the thing It's like,

01:46:30.504 --> 01:46:34.744
it's alright if you don't know It's alright if you make a mistake.

01:46:36.500 --> 01:46:42.880
Have the people in place to fix it. If you don't, find those people quickly, right?

01:46:43.380 --> 01:46:49.800
I mean, that's how you handle that. That's how you become accountable.

01:46:50.740 --> 01:46:54.580
So I just, that was one thing I needed to get off my chest. The other thing

01:46:54.580 --> 01:46:57.700
I needed to get off my chest is my beloved Democratic Party.

01:46:59.460 --> 01:47:06.200
I have no problem individually with the new gentleman and the new leadership of the party.

01:47:06.500 --> 01:47:11.200
And Ken Martin, you know, he is the guy.

01:47:11.680 --> 01:47:18.480
So those of us who fall on the Democratic team will have to make the most of

01:47:18.480 --> 01:47:23.460
that and pray that he is the guy for real. Right.

01:47:24.160 --> 01:47:28.420
To get not only the party back on track, it's bigger than the party is to get

01:47:28.420 --> 01:47:33.360
the nation back on track to get us to a point where we're having legitimate

01:47:33.360 --> 01:47:37.720
discussions and we're raising the level of the political discourse and we're

01:47:37.720 --> 01:47:40.240
saving democracy in the process. Right.

01:47:40.740 --> 01:47:45.840
But it sure would have been nice if the Democratic Party made a statement.

01:47:46.680 --> 01:47:51.580
When Barack Obama got elected, the Republican Party made a statement.

01:47:51.940 --> 01:48:00.440
They said, we've got to we've got to counter this because Barack Obama is a incredible orator.

01:48:00.600 --> 01:48:05.860
He's a very intelligent man, probably one of the most decent presidents,

01:48:06.020 --> 01:48:09.520
definitely the most honorable president we've had recently. Right.

01:48:10.287 --> 01:48:13.687
But he was politically, he was a problem.

01:48:13.907 --> 01:48:19.587
If you're a Republican, he just got elected president, very popular,

01:48:20.147 --> 01:48:24.827
was able to cross all sorts of lines to get the votes he needed to win.

01:48:25.527 --> 01:48:31.387
So the Republicans felt they needed to counter that. And so they went and got Michael Steele.

01:48:31.547 --> 01:48:35.287
Michael Steele was a Republican lieutenant governor of the state of Maryland.

01:48:35.647 --> 01:48:38.367
And Maryland traditionally is a Democratic state.

01:48:39.007 --> 01:48:41.387
And Michael won. Right.

01:48:42.287 --> 01:48:46.387
And I can't remember if they had a ticket thing going on and everybody ran individually.

01:48:46.587 --> 01:48:49.887
But nonetheless, Michael Steele was a lieutenant governor, Republican lieutenant

01:48:49.887 --> 01:48:52.087
governor of Democratic state. And he was a black man.

01:48:52.587 --> 01:48:55.567
And that propelled Michael into the national stage.

01:48:56.227 --> 01:49:00.227
And he was an effective counter to Barack Obama.

01:49:00.407 --> 01:49:05.367
He wasn't as gifted, but he wasn't a slouch either.

01:49:05.367 --> 01:49:12.867
He held his own and they were able to flip the House and the Senate during Barack

01:49:12.867 --> 01:49:16.767
Obama's term to the point where he couldn't flip it back. Right.

01:49:17.667 --> 01:49:25.667
So we pick Ken Martin and Ken is a white guy from Minnesota.

01:49:26.267 --> 01:49:31.167
And Minnesota has had a tradition of very strong, progressive,

01:49:31.387 --> 01:49:33.087
liberal, Democratic leaders.

01:49:33.427 --> 01:49:37.207
I mean, the name of their party is actually the Democratic Farm Labor Party.

01:49:37.387 --> 01:49:39.887
It's not the Democratic Party up there. Right?

01:49:41.007 --> 01:49:44.447
So there's no question about his bona fides.

01:49:44.707 --> 01:49:49.007
I mean, he was an acolyte of Paul Wellstone. And if you don't know who Paul

01:49:49.007 --> 01:49:50.407
Wellstone is, please look him up.

01:49:51.767 --> 01:49:53.887
And so he's a good guy. All right.

01:49:55.424 --> 01:49:59.564
So I grew up in the baseball tradition and I love the game.

01:49:59.744 --> 01:50:03.504
And Leo Durocher says, nice guys finish last.

01:50:04.804 --> 01:50:09.324
And he meant that he didn't want you to be rude or obnoxious.

01:50:09.624 --> 01:50:14.664
But, you know, sometimes in this game, you're going to have to brush that batter back.

01:50:14.884 --> 01:50:17.744
Sometimes in that game, you're going to have to slide hard in the second base.

01:50:17.924 --> 01:50:22.904
Sometimes in that game, you're going to have to collide at home plate with the catcher.

01:50:24.084 --> 01:50:30.344
It's not going to be all perfect And we're at that stage.

01:50:32.124 --> 01:50:36.584
And what better time to do something That the Democratic Party has never done,

01:50:37.224 --> 01:50:43.704
And that's put a black woman in that position We've had black men We just had

01:50:43.704 --> 01:50:46.864
one You know, he lost and blah, blah,

01:50:47.844 --> 01:50:53.264
He took that L That's why he voluntarily stepped down you know, when it happened.

01:50:53.884 --> 01:50:58.984
But, you know, we've had black men before. Ron Brown was one for sure.

01:50:59.964 --> 01:51:03.824
But considering what just happened,

01:51:04.584 --> 01:51:10.884
considering how at least half of the nation was rallying around a black woman

01:51:10.884 --> 01:51:14.004
who was the first female vice president ever,

01:51:14.584 --> 01:51:23.064
it just would have made sense to me to say, can we not put a competent,

01:51:23.444 --> 01:51:27.304
aggressive, strategic black woman in that spot? Because they're out there.

01:51:28.304 --> 01:51:34.764
I'm sure the listeners can give me all sorts of names of who it could have been. Easy.

01:51:35.664 --> 01:51:40.804
Several names. There were some people that were running for the vice chair position

01:51:40.804 --> 01:51:44.464
is like, you should have been running for the chair, right?

01:51:45.464 --> 01:51:49.484
And, you know, the powers that be and all that stuff. And, you know,

01:51:49.504 --> 01:51:54.504
we can get into conversation about money influence and the consulting class,

01:51:54.724 --> 01:51:56.044
the donor class, all that stuff.

01:51:56.264 --> 01:51:58.704
And all that probably weighed into it.

01:51:59.264 --> 01:52:05.824
But if you're serious about achieving the goal of saving democracy,

01:52:05.824 --> 01:52:16.844
if you're serious about the goal of making America complete not an exclusive

01:52:16.844 --> 01:52:20.104
club for white male Christians but a complete nation.

01:52:22.899 --> 01:52:26.339
Should have drafted a black woman.

01:52:26.759 --> 01:52:30.239
Probably should have focused, yeah, it's got to be.

01:52:30.639 --> 01:52:34.979
The Republicans did it. When they decided they wanted to go up against Barack

01:52:34.979 --> 01:52:40.299
Obama, they made a concerted effort to find a competent black man to stand toe-to-toe

01:52:40.299 --> 01:52:42.899
with him. We could have done the same thing.

01:52:43.919 --> 01:52:48.379
We could have found a competent black woman to stand toe-to-toe with Donald

01:52:48.379 --> 01:52:55.199
Trump, Elon Musk, and all these other folks. I mean, guys, Elon Musk is literally

01:52:55.199 --> 01:52:58.579
enacting the second phase of the coup.

01:52:58.859 --> 01:53:01.619
The first phase was January 6th, 2021.

01:53:02.379 --> 01:53:08.679
The second phase is in operation. Now, the Democrats in the Senate are starting

01:53:08.679 --> 01:53:12.379
to get riled up, which is another thing.

01:53:12.479 --> 01:53:15.639
Chuck Schumer should have never been put back in.

01:53:16.319 --> 01:53:22.479
You lost the Senate, dog. How are you still the leader? Mitch McConnell won, and he stepped down.

01:53:23.679 --> 01:53:29.339
And Chuck Schumer is still the guy. And I've got personal beef with him. I do.

01:53:29.959 --> 01:53:36.379
So I'm not completely unbiased in my position. But we've got to go in a different direction.

01:53:37.219 --> 01:53:40.579
We've got to go in a different direction. We can't be nice.

01:53:41.499 --> 01:53:46.259
We can't be nice. We can be civil, but we ain't got to be nice.

01:53:47.219 --> 01:53:51.839
Our lives are literally on the line. People are being rounded up.

01:53:52.379 --> 01:53:53.919
Agencies are being taken over.

01:53:55.139 --> 01:54:00.459
Populations are being gentrified, not only locally, but worldwide.

01:54:00.919 --> 01:54:07.439
I mean, the president of the United States has basically approved of a gentrification program in Gaza.

01:54:08.139 --> 01:54:12.939
This is really, really happening. This is not in that season of Dallas where

01:54:12.939 --> 01:54:16.179
Bobby was dreaming. This is really happening.

01:54:16.959 --> 01:54:21.179
And we need to step up to the plate and fight for it.

01:54:23.774 --> 01:54:27.834
I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. I hope those of you all who are listening

01:54:27.834 --> 01:54:30.734
get engaged and do what you have to do.

01:54:31.914 --> 01:54:35.854
There's other folks like me that are engaged in doing what we can do,

01:54:36.014 --> 01:54:41.094
whether it's through podcasts, industry activism, whatever.

01:54:42.094 --> 01:54:47.554
Combinations. The resistance has to be real and it has to be organized and it

01:54:47.554 --> 01:54:52.054
has to be strong because they're going for broke.

01:54:53.454 --> 01:54:59.874
But as I said in the last podcast, we still have the capacity to pull that plug and we need to do it.

01:55:00.974 --> 01:55:04.154
So those are my thoughts, ladies and gentlemen. I just wanted to get that off

01:55:04.154 --> 01:55:08.994
my chest and I appreciate your patience and your indulgence.

01:55:09.434 --> 01:55:12.814
And, you know, we're just going to keep doing what we're doing.

01:55:12.814 --> 01:55:19.094
We're just going to keep doing our best to raise the level and hope that the

01:55:19.094 --> 01:55:26.614
adage is true that a rising tide lifts all boats because we need everybody.

01:55:27.734 --> 01:55:29.954
Thank you all for listening. Until next time.

01:55:31.280 --> 01:56:18.083
Music.