Nature Spirituality Featuring Roger S. Gottlieb

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Welcome. I'm Eric Fleming, host of A Moment with Eric Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NVG Podcast Network.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment with Eric Fleming. I am your host, Eric Fleming.

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So today, we've got a guest, Roger Gottlieb.

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Roger has written a book called Nature Spirituality,

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and we'll go into the whole title of the book in the interview,

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but that's going to be the title of the podcast, since he's the only guest, Nature Spirituality.

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And Roger is a philosophy professor at Worcester Polytechnical College.

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And he's written several books, and he's very, very bullish on the environment.

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And if he wasn't a philosopher, he would be a full-time environmentalist, No doubt about it.

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But anyway, you're going to enjoy that interview and looking forward to y'all

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listening to that update on the black podcasting awards.

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Did not win yet again. Nominated for a third time, did not win.

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However, one of the things that was noted during the ceremony that I could stay

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on was that a couple of people who had been nominated several times finally won their first award.

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This year, so keep hope alive.

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No, seriously, though, my joy comes in the fact of being recognized.

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You know, I was really amped up that, you know, I had a chance to be nominated,

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you know, for the cover art.

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That really, really was special to me because of the work that I put into it.

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And I hope that y'all like it.

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You know, I know several people voted on my behalf, but it wasn't enough to

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get nominated. But nonetheless, that was that was really vindication.

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Not to mention the fact that the podcast has been nominated for a third time.

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So I just want to thank the Black Podcasting Awards for recognizing the work

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that I am doing, as well as other black podcasters.

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There were over 80 podcasts nominated this year in the different categories, 80.

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One podcast walked away with five. And it's a podcast dealing with history of

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Afro-Caribbean music and how it impacts the diaspora and stuff.

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It walked away with five. And so it is obviously pretty good, right?

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I have not had a chance to hear it, but I definitely will try to take the time

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to do that, you know, over the next coming days and months.

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But it's really just a cool experience. And, you know, we got to support each other.

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And regardless if I ever win or not, we've got to support those folks that are

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trying to support us, right?

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So, again, I just want to thank the Black Podcasting Awards.

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I mean, our show is a three-time nominated program.

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So, you know, some people have never been nominated. So there you go.

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So, yeah, that's that. And then, you know, I just, if y'all want to continue

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to show their support for the podcast, always go to www.momenteric.com and do that.

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And I want to send a shout out to Leonard Young and MBG Podcast Network that

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I've been affiliated with for about two years now, I guess.

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And, yeah, it's been a great relationship.

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You know, and it's taken the podcast to yet another level. So I just thank him for that.

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And I understand there's going to be some new things coming out with the network.

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So I'm looking forward to hearing those changes.

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All right, guys, let's go ahead and get this show started. And as always,

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we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Thanks, Eric. The Supreme Court revived expanded voter citizenship checks to

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combat voting by non-citizens.

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A Mississippi grand jury declined to indict anyone in the death of 18-year-old

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Nolan Wells, finding no evidence of criminal conduct.

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President Trump hosted Chinese President Xi Jinping for a White House summit

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that produced no major policy breakthroughs, though Xi pressed the U.S.

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To oppose Taiwanese independence.

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The White House reinstated access for journalists from CNN, MSNOW,

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and Politico after a federal judge ruled President Trump's ban on the outlets

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was likely unconstitutional.

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At the U.N. General Assembly, President Trump defended U.S.-Israeli military

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operations against Iran and rejected new AI regulations.

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The Supreme Court, for the third time, rejected a Republican-drawn Missouri

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congressional map as state officials proceed with a prior map for the upcoming midterm elections.

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A federal appeals court reinstated an Ohio law requiring proof of citizenship

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when registering to vote at state motor vehicle offices.

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An ICE officer shot and wounded 28-year-old Venezuelan immigrant Wilbur Rafael

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Garces Perez during a foot pursuit in Austin, Texas.

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The Trump administration is halting Obamacare enrollment for over 760,000 individuals

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as part of an anti-fraud crackdown.

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DoorDash agreed to a $131.5 million settlement, including $115 million in worker

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relief and a $16.7 million fine, to resolve a New York City wage probe.

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President Trump announced plans to convert a proposed 250-foot Triumphal Ark

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near Washington into a drone and sniper-equipped military complex on national security grounds.

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Jason Eaton was convicted of attempted second-degree murder on three counts

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for the 2023 shooting of three Palestinian-American students in Vermont.

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And Converse pulled an advertisement and issued an apology over imagery that

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critics said evoked Ku Klux Klan robes and black lynchings.

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I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for

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my guest, Roger S. Gottlieb.

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Roger S. Gottlieb, William B. Smith Professor of Philosophy at Worcester Polytechnic Institute,

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is the author and editor of 23 books on religion, environmental ethics,

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and spirituality, including This Sacred Earth and A Greener Faith.

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He has received multiple Book Awards and has written for both scholarly journals

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and venues such as Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Boston Globe,

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Orion Afield, and the Los Angeles Review of Books.

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He lives in Boston, Massachusetts.

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His latest book, which we will talk about in this interview,

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is Nature's Spirituality and Environmental Crisis, Embracing a Sacred Wounded Earth.

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Ladies and gentlemen, It is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Roger S. Gottlieb.

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All right. Professor Roger Gottlieb, how are you doing today?

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Thank God I'm okay. How are you? I'm doing good.

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I'm grateful to God I'm okay as well.

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We're here to talk about this book that you have written, Nature,

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Spirituality, and Environmental Crisis, Embracing a Sacred Wounded Earth.

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And I want to tell the listeners, it's not strictly an environmental or climate change book.

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It is really a book about philosophy and the way that you wrote it.

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You know, I kind of, I kind of figured that it was going to be a philosophy

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angle because you are a philosophy professor, but you went deep in this thing.

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So I'm, I'm limited in time to how many questions I could ask you,

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but I was just going through and I was like, okay, let me write that down.

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Let me do this. And then when I realized, yeah, I got to shut it down at some

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point. So, but, but I really enjoyed reading that and just, it, it,

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Anytime I get into something like that, it really makes you think.

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And I hope that the listeners, when they read the book, that they'll feel the same way.

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But we're going to go ahead and get started.

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And as always, I start off with a couple of icebreakers to kind of get the conversation going.

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And the first icebreaker I throw at the guest is a quote that I want you,

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professor, to respond to.

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The best remedy for those who are frightened, lonely, or unhappy is to go outside.

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Somewhere they can be alone, alone with the sky, nature, and God.

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For then and only then can you feel that everything is as it should be and that

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God wants people to be happy amid nature's beauty and simplicity.

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As long as this exists and that should be forever, I know that there will be

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a solace for every sorrow, whatever the circumstances.

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Yes, quite beautiful. From Anne Frank, if not all your listeners recognize that name.

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She was a Jewish teenager who was hiding in an attic in Amsterdam when the Nazis

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took over. And she lived in that attic for, I guess it was 19 months or something

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before she was found and murdered.

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And her diary is a classic. It's been hundreds of millions of copies read.

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And Anne, despite everything, had this hope.

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And she's talking about an experience that I imagine many of your listeners

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will have had, which that,

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you feel a little crummy right you're a little angry you're a little jealous

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you don't feel life has treated you the right way your wife or your husband

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or your kids or your parents are giving you a hard time your back hurts,

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so one thing you do,

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is you go into the woods or you go to a beach or you go by a river or you just

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sit in a park next to one favorite treat and.

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And you feel better after a while. Not better the way three drinks or half a

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chocolate cake makes you feel. There's no hangover. There's no kind of shame

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that would use stuff to your face.

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No, you feel more grateful, more accepting, more connected.

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And that very simply is a description of what nature's spirituality is.

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It's becoming more spiritual, having a support for spiritual virtues by the

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experience, the encounter with nature.

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And what I imagine in the book is Anne Frank miraculously surviving the Holocaust,

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going into the woods, going to a little pond up a dirt road in the woods,

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and starts to feel that God wants her to be happy and that there is,

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a balm for every, a cure for every solace, every sadness.

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And then a truck comes up the dirt road and backs up into the pond,

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dumps something into the pond.

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Toxic smoke goes up, the vegetation droops, dead fish rise to the surface.

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And Anne Frank starts to cough.

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So what happens to the solace that nature has given us for thousands of years

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in every human culture, what happens to that solace when it's being burned, poisoned,

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made extinct, and flooded and burned?

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What happens then? That's what the book is about. Yeah.

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All right. So now the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between one and 20. 12. All right.

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What advice do you have for recognizing fake news?

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That's a very good question.

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Well, one thing is to read or listen outside of people who think like you.

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I periodically read Fox News.

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I look at the free press, which has a nice variety of viewpoints,

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though it shades it a little bit more to the right on climate issues than I would like.

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I look at some of the better known conservative commentators as well as different

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kinds of liberal commentators. I'm not on any one side anymore.

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However, I do think that whatever side you're on, and too bad that this seems

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to be a matter of sight, you know, we're all physical beings.

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We all need to breathe air, drink water, eat food, and live in a climate for which we're prepared.

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And all those things are in question now.

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The greatest follower of Trump and the current really horrible head of the EPA,

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where they flooded this summer, those folks?

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Is it so hot that people started to die or you couldn't go out?

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What do you say to your kids? Some seven-year-old kid, it's July.

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No school, time to go out and play. Well, kid, you can't go out because we broke

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the air because of forest fires thousands of miles away.

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And the air, you look at that little app on your phone and it says 193,

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don't go out unless you're crazy?

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And you have to say that to your kid. So I would also say, pay attention to

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something that's not technical, not just impossible.

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Pay attention to the floods, the fires, the bad air, and get a little bit of

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basic information, like how much plastic is in your brain, is in your inner

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organs, is in your genitals.

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Find out. That's a common thing. You can Google that in 15 seconds.

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You'll get the answer. And then you begin to say, well, who is producing the fake news on this topic?

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And why are they doing it? What kinds of license to pollute?

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What kinds of profits are they making? What do they want us to forget about?

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What would have to change? How huge would have to change for us to do something just about plastic?

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Never mind all the other chemicals. Never mind climate. Forget climate. Just the plastic.

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That's everywhere.

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Well, and then you begin to become more critical, and then you start to get anxious.

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If you're not anxious already, if you're not anxious, you haven't been paying attention.

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So you begin to, and so the second thing to do is to pay attention to the emotions that the truth,

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or these perspectives that you haven't been exposed to, pay attention to the

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feelings that they arise. Do they make you mad?

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Are you stuck in grief? Are you in a rage? Are you scared for the future if

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you have young children, if you have grandchildren?

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What kind of the United States of America or other parts of the world,

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if you have listeners outside of our country, what kind of a world do you think

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they will be living in 50 years from now?

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Each year is the hottest we've ever had.

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So, is that a perfect answer? No, but it might give you a start. Yeah. Well,

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When I was listening to you explain about your political thoughts,

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I was thinking about the gentleman that's running in Kansas, Mr. Hamilton.

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And he was speaking to an audience, and he said, you know, we're all liberal and conservative.

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And he said, the most liberal person here has conservative values,

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and the most conservative person here has liberal ideas.

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And he said, if we start thinking like that in our politics,

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then we'll start electing people that are more responsive to us,

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which I thought was profound. Of course, he's a pastor.

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So it was like, okay, that makes sense that his mindset is like that, right?

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But he just reminded me of him when you said that.

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Well, there are unfortunately a lot of pastors who call down fire and brimstone

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on anybody they don't like.

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And they're convinced that the Antichrist and the war is at hand and all this

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sort of thing. And it's, you know, it's toxic masculinity masquerading as Christianity,

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which is too bad, really. Yeah. Yeah.

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Why is loving the earth a simple truth?

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Well, you know, on one level, it's very easy to get distracted from it.

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It's very easy to think that really the only thing that are important are things we manufacture.

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Manufacture, forgetting, for example, that we only manufacture stuff because

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we live on an earth with gravity and a climate and water and oxygen and materials

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which we operate on in order to get this stuff that we manufacture.

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It's very easy to be so caught up in one's social identity.

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I'm white, I'm black, I'm rich, I'm poor, unsuccessful, not successful,

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gay, straight, all these kinds of things, Jewish, Christian, Muslim.

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We forget that we are physical being. And I think that the digital revolution,

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which I'm old enough to have seen from the beginning, has led us further in that direction.

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I remember hearing somebody say, this was, you know, when the internet was just

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starting, and he was a very enthusiastic proponent of the internet and video

00:20:28.775 --> 00:20:32.572
games, all that sort of thing. And he said, look, the real action now is online.

00:20:33.535 --> 00:20:39.175
That's the reality now. And I thought, well, this is a sad case of profound

00:20:39.175 --> 00:20:44.004
dissociation from reality, because he's looking at a computer screen,

00:20:44.300 --> 00:20:46.146
which is a physical object.

00:20:46.546 --> 00:20:50.425
He's working with a computer, which is fueled by electricity,

00:20:50.425 --> 00:20:55.016
which we get by burning gas, burning oil, or doing something like that.

00:20:55.306 --> 00:21:00.815
He's sitting in a chair having had breakfast, but he wants to say the real stuff

00:21:00.815 --> 00:21:04.337
is online, just like Elon Musk wants to download his brain onto a chip.

00:21:04.778 --> 00:21:09.248
All right, fine. Download your brain onto a chip. The chip is a physical object.

00:21:09.753 --> 00:21:16.237
It doesn't exist in cyberspace. Cyberspace exists because we are physical beings. That's one thing.

00:21:16.760 --> 00:21:20.815
The other thing is, if you are a theist, Christian, Jew, Muslim,

00:21:20.815 --> 00:21:24.329
that sort of thing, well, the earth is a gift.

00:21:25.106 --> 00:21:31.417
The earth is a gift that God gave us from your perspective. And it was, if you read the Bible.

00:21:32.644 --> 00:21:37.185
Pronounced good by God. A couple of popes ago, John Paul II,

00:21:37.557 --> 00:21:40.749
said he was an environmentalist because after the sixth day of creation,

00:21:40.749 --> 00:21:44.142
God looked at everything God had created and said, very good.

00:21:44.696 --> 00:21:48.889
Now, it's interesting because of all the popes before him, one would imagine

00:21:48.889 --> 00:21:51.309
that is, some of them are practically illiterate, those popes,

00:21:51.309 --> 00:21:55.313
but they all read the first book of the Bible. They also read the book of Genesis.

00:21:55.679 --> 00:22:00.979
But he plucked out that line and used it to justify environmentalism.

00:22:00.979 --> 00:22:02.481
He was very good, John Paul II.

00:22:03.328 --> 00:22:07.149
There is, if you are a believing Christian, you know, or a Jew or Muslim,

00:22:07.149 --> 00:22:14.576
there are environmentalists among your theologians, among the people who lead your religious groups.

00:22:14.925 --> 00:22:20.389
There are religious groups that are doing environmental activism for explicitly religious reasons.

00:22:21.732 --> 00:22:25.749
And it's also the case that nature has something to teach us.

00:22:26.413 --> 00:22:30.179
Nature has something to teach us. Think of trees. I'm very big on trees.

00:22:30.179 --> 00:22:32.959
I live in the city of Boston, but my street, thank goodness,

00:22:32.959 --> 00:22:37.749
has a line with big trees, big old trees. And I'm a five-minute walk from a

00:22:37.749 --> 00:22:41.489
gorgeous park with a lake that's a mile and a half around, all within the city

00:22:41.489 --> 00:22:42.917
limits. It's remarkable.

00:22:43.544 --> 00:22:46.703
Think of what trees do, right? They grow.

00:22:47.225 --> 00:22:50.848
They provide shade. If they're fruit or nut trees, they provide that.

00:22:51.225 --> 00:22:54.412
They provide homes for birds and squirrels, other kinds of animals.

00:22:54.691 --> 00:22:56.519
They hold the soil from being eroded.

00:22:57.164 --> 00:23:02.121
They exchange energy for minerals with fungal networks underneath the earth.

00:23:02.464 --> 00:23:05.751
They do all those things. Here's something they won't do.

00:23:06.482 --> 00:23:11.109
No tree will spend any energy saying, God damn it, there's other tree over there.

00:23:11.109 --> 00:23:13.661
He's got a better situation than I do, and he gets more sun.

00:23:14.317 --> 00:23:15.815
Trees don't get envious.

00:23:16.866 --> 00:23:21.579
If somebody's coming with a chainsaw to cut it down, It will resist with every

00:23:21.579 --> 00:23:23.977
fiber of its being, but it won't get angry.

00:23:24.668 --> 00:23:27.529
It won't think, I don't deserve to die. It won't do that.

00:23:28.185 --> 00:23:33.129
Trees don't have egos. So when we go out to the forest, the shore,

00:23:33.669 --> 00:23:37.999
we look at plants, even if it's grass coming up through the cracks in the sidewalk,

00:23:37.999 --> 00:23:39.929
if you're in a poor neighborhood without fancy stuff,

00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:43.870
we look at things which function, which live, which breathe,

00:23:44.346 --> 00:23:49.568
which interact, which reproduce, which give us so much without an ego.

00:23:49.829 --> 00:23:54.369
And it tamps down our ego, that part of us which is constantly wanting more,

00:23:54.369 --> 00:23:58.624
better, feeling unloved, unheard, I didn't do enough.

00:23:58.909 --> 00:24:02.728
Yes, that worked well, but what about next week? All the kind of things that egos do.

00:24:03.586 --> 00:24:09.629
You know, behold, you shall be as little children, said Jesus. And what did he mean?

00:24:10.029 --> 00:24:13.134
He didn't mean not be toilet-changed. He mean function without an ego.

00:24:14.059 --> 00:24:18.576
Yeah. Explain what nature of spirituality is.

00:24:19.188 --> 00:24:22.518
Well, the simple answer is begin with the concept of spirituality,

00:24:22.518 --> 00:24:26.508
which is used in countless different ways and, by my understanding,

00:24:26.508 --> 00:24:33.428
exists in every global religion and also exists for people who are spiritual but not religious.

00:24:33.428 --> 00:24:35.970
There's 30 or 40 million people like that in the United States.

00:24:36.760 --> 00:24:42.398
And spirituality is the belief that there are certain virtues that we can live

00:24:42.398 --> 00:24:45.452
by, And if we live by them, we're going to be a lot better off.

00:24:46.126 --> 00:24:50.155
Take an obvious one. Gratitude. You get up in the morning. Your back hurts.

00:24:50.300 --> 00:24:51.455
You got to go to the dentist.

00:24:52.948 --> 00:24:56.993
The neighbor next door is doing some work on his house and the noise is driving you nuts.

00:24:59.055 --> 00:25:02.889
Instead of that, you could wake up and say, this is what traditional Jews do,

00:25:02.889 --> 00:25:07.534
the first word out of your mouth for a traditional Jew is supposed to be, thank you. Modah.

00:25:07.952 --> 00:25:15.069
Ani lefanecha melechai v'kayom. I give thanks to you, God, for returning my soul to my body.

00:25:15.731 --> 00:25:20.759
So if you begin with gratitude, you're a lot less envious. You're a lot more

00:25:21.179 --> 00:25:22.889
generous. You're a lot more fun to be around.

00:25:23.161 --> 00:25:29.659
Gratitude is a key spiritual virtue. So, spiritual teachers say that there's these several virtues.

00:25:30.179 --> 00:25:34.436
I have written a book about it, a couple of books, and I use awareness,

00:25:34.982 --> 00:25:37.745
acceptance, gratitude, compassion, and love.

00:25:38.076 --> 00:25:41.448
Other spiritual teachers use other virtues. Not important, those differences.

00:25:42.313 --> 00:25:46.949
And so, the question then is, how do we stimulate, support, nourish the spiritual

00:25:46.949 --> 00:25:51.979
virtues? Well, we pray, we read books, we engage in good action in the world,

00:25:52.292 --> 00:25:54.783
we follow a spiritual teacher, a good teacher.

00:25:56.891 --> 00:26:01.098
And we go out to the woods. And like I said at the beginning of our conversation,

00:26:01.782 --> 00:26:04.789
not always. You might go out to the woods just to kill and show what a tough

00:26:04.789 --> 00:26:09.649
guy you are. You might go out to, you know, take your trained dog and harvest

00:26:09.649 --> 00:26:10.989
all the mushrooms you can.

00:26:11.890 --> 00:26:15.733
But if you go out there needing some kind of spiritual sustenance,

00:26:15.890 --> 00:26:18.833
it's there. And people have written about this endlessly.

00:26:19.556 --> 00:26:26.168
And now the problem is it's threatened. It's difficult. We can't trust it will always be there.

00:26:26.971 --> 00:26:32.019
To make a clear point here, one of the relationships, I believe,

00:26:32.019 --> 00:26:37.139
which calls on us for great spiritual development, and also you can really blow

00:26:37.139 --> 00:26:39.046
it completely, is relations with our children.

00:26:39.744 --> 00:26:43.499
We want the best for them. We want to control them. We want them to turn out

00:26:43.499 --> 00:26:46.002
a certain way. We're willing to give them freedom.

00:26:47.081 --> 00:26:51.198
One of the best things we can do for children is introduce them to the spiritual

00:26:51.198 --> 00:26:54.280
quality of wilderness, woods, outdoors.

00:26:54.933 --> 00:27:00.048
And we would like to say to them, look, Sammy, Susie, no matter what goes wrong

00:27:00.048 --> 00:27:03.158
for you, you're too fat, you're too thin, you didn't do this,

00:27:03.158 --> 00:27:05.894
you didn't do that, you're good in school, you don't have the right friends.

00:27:06.518 --> 00:27:11.818
No matter what, you can go to this place which is going to welcome you and heal

00:27:11.818 --> 00:27:16.278
you because it doesn't have an ego and it will treat everybody the same.

00:27:16.278 --> 00:27:23.991
The best-looking movie star and the grumpiest old man like me treat us exactly the same.

00:27:24.287 --> 00:27:28.108
The billionaires and the people on welfare, they're treated just the same.

00:27:28.108 --> 00:27:30.226
There's a kind of equality there, so forth and so on.

00:27:30.905 --> 00:27:34.951
But now we can't say to our kids, look, you can always go to those woods.

00:27:35.598 --> 00:27:36.660
Maybe they'll be gone tomorrow.

00:27:37.386 --> 00:27:42.982
And that's a tremendous loss. and it's a tremendous spiritual loss for children,

00:27:43.630 --> 00:27:46.961
especially when children look at the adults.

00:27:47.760 --> 00:27:51.628
You've got to ask yourself, Eric, what does every religion and every secular

00:27:51.628 --> 00:27:54.951
philosophical framework have in karma? Absolutely every one.

00:27:55.721 --> 00:27:57.561
They tell kids that they know what's right.

00:27:58.362 --> 00:28:02.238
The Christian pastor does it, the Jewish rabbi does it, and the secular atheist

00:28:02.238 --> 00:28:04.916
does it, and they all do it.

00:28:05.584 --> 00:28:09.638
And some smart 12-year-old kid finds out what's going on And he looks at the

00:28:09.638 --> 00:28:14.869
adult world and say, who the hell are you to tell me anything? Look what you've done.

00:28:15.703 --> 00:28:21.248
So there's a deep spiritual loss of trust between children and the older generation.

00:28:21.248 --> 00:28:22.361
That's a tremendous loss.

00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:26.548
And that's one reason I believe that when kids get to my university,

00:28:26.548 --> 00:28:31.074
17, 18 years old, a third of them are already on psychiatric medications.

00:28:31.931 --> 00:28:36.009
That's, you know, what's going on with that? Not to mention all the teasing

00:28:36.009 --> 00:28:37.786
and the torturing and all that kind of stuff.

00:28:38.432 --> 00:28:42.429
So it's still there. I mean, the book is not relentlessly downbeat.

00:28:42.969 --> 00:28:46.239
You can see why I don't get invited to too many cocktail parties,

00:28:46.239 --> 00:28:49.609
right? It's about the bad news.

00:28:51.829 --> 00:28:57.869
One environmentalist said environmentalists walk alone in a world of wounds. A world of wounds.

00:28:58.703 --> 00:29:01.779
But let's take a simple thing. Let's go back to gratitude.

00:29:02.503 --> 00:29:07.769
How can somebody be gratitude for that forest that you see is being decimated

00:29:07.769 --> 00:29:12.199
by the pine bark beetle because of global warming? The pine bark beetle has

00:29:12.199 --> 00:29:15.180
more life cycles in a year.

00:29:15.476 --> 00:29:18.979
And so millions upon millions of trees in the American West are being eaten

00:29:18.979 --> 00:29:20.631
alive by the pine bark beetle.

00:29:20.968 --> 00:29:24.869
You can see huge hillsides in national parks, all dead trees because of the

00:29:24.869 --> 00:29:26.645
pine bark beetle. How do you feel grateful?

00:29:27.472 --> 00:29:34.113
Well, I offer in the book a simple idea, which is it's enough that it ever was.

00:29:34.876 --> 00:29:38.104
It's enough that it ever was. And that doesn't mean we feel good about what's

00:29:38.104 --> 00:29:42.554
happening, or we don't feel angry at the people who have power who could change

00:29:42.554 --> 00:29:46.857
things, or we don't feel irritated with the people who can't change their consumption habits.

00:29:47.246 --> 00:29:49.893
But it means we switch the attention.

00:29:50.594 --> 00:29:53.144
Spirituality is a great deal about switching attention. You know,

00:29:53.943 --> 00:29:56.643
take your mind off the screen and put it on your breath, right?

00:29:56.950 --> 00:30:01.356
Take your mind off advertisements and put it on the teachings of the New Testament, whatever.

00:30:01.971 --> 00:30:04.667
So think for a moment.

00:30:05.361 --> 00:30:08.124
There was no cosmic guarantee we'd have this earth.

00:30:08.859 --> 00:30:11.517
No cosmic guarantee any of us would ever exist.

00:30:12.260 --> 00:30:16.539
That we'd live in our earth with colors, the sound of birds,

00:30:17.050 --> 00:30:20.435
with the graceful motions of a cat jumping up onto a couch.

00:30:21.218 --> 00:30:23.743
There's no guarantee there would ever be such a thing as an orgasm.

00:30:24.463 --> 00:30:26.303
Pretty nice. Pretty good stuff.

00:30:26.987 --> 00:30:33.574
So, while grief for what's been lost, fear for the future, anger,

00:30:33.574 --> 00:30:38.654
these are all reasonable, appropriate ways to feel gratitude,

00:30:38.654 --> 00:30:41.110
I suggest in the book. I go into some detail with this.

00:30:42.294 --> 00:30:46.671
Gratitude is also something that's appropriate.

00:30:47.512 --> 00:30:51.718
We should never forget what a miracle it is to be alive.

00:30:52.546 --> 00:30:56.064
What a miracle it is that we might have a friend, a wife, a husband,

00:30:56.064 --> 00:30:58.583
a child, a teacher, a student,

00:30:59.459 --> 00:31:05.644
That 90% of the species that ever existed on this earth Went extinct in the

00:31:05.644 --> 00:31:10.924
course of evolution Leading up to Eric Fleming Look what it produced,

00:31:10.924 --> 00:31:13.039
a wonderful person like you,

00:31:13.962 --> 00:31:16.220
That's really something to feel good about,

00:31:17.229 --> 00:31:22.744
So, that's one way in which nature's spirituality is still possible.

00:31:23.385 --> 00:31:27.594
Not in the old form of certainty, or Anne Frank, in that wonderful,

00:31:28.058 --> 00:31:32.900
painful quotation you read, is sure that it will always be there. Well, no, we can't be.

00:31:33.229 --> 00:31:35.424
We can't be sure. But it has been.

00:31:36.502 --> 00:31:40.879
I'll give you another way to think about this. One of the great spiritual virtues

00:31:40.879 --> 00:31:43.023
is love. It's in the Bible.

00:31:43.852 --> 00:31:49.582
You know, it's all over the place. When Muslims pray five times a day and say,

00:31:49.797 --> 00:31:51.620
There is no God but Allah.

00:31:51.777 --> 00:31:55.985
If they're actually real Muslims, they're not just spouting a line.

00:31:56.467 --> 00:32:01.359
They are committing themselves to love above all one being. Not their bank account.

00:32:03.350 --> 00:32:07.837
Not some sexual partner. Not their new car. Not their beautiful house.

00:32:08.481 --> 00:32:10.808
They're loving God. So love is an essential virtue.

00:32:11.661 --> 00:32:15.859
You know, what does the Mahayana Buddhists say? I vow to save all beings,

00:32:15.859 --> 00:32:18.174
all beings from suffering. That's a kind of love.

00:32:18.848 --> 00:32:25.155
So let me take an example. God forbid, God forbid your mother is in the hospital,

00:32:25.311 --> 00:32:28.472
your mother whom you love, and doesn't look good.

00:32:29.131 --> 00:32:32.299
Nurse takes you aside and says, better get her affairs in order.

00:32:32.299 --> 00:32:34.501
Maybe she'll be saved, but it doesn't look good.

00:32:35.158 --> 00:32:41.059
Would you want to spend all your energy being sad, anxious, resentful?

00:32:41.479 --> 00:32:45.160
No, it can't happen to mom. she can't die. How will I live without mom?

00:32:45.700 --> 00:32:46.716
You want to do some of that.

00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:53.142
But don't you also want to go into her hospital room, hold her hand,

00:32:53.862 --> 00:32:58.593
stroke her hair, sing to her, tell her how much you love her.

00:32:59.568 --> 00:33:04.317
The focus is not on, oh, the future must work out in a good way.

00:33:05.162 --> 00:33:09.051
The future is today. I'm here. Today.

00:33:09.492 --> 00:33:13.869
I'm here. And I can show love to life.

00:33:14.500 --> 00:33:18.954
Whether it's another person, that people are suffering from environmental damage.

00:33:18.954 --> 00:33:23.664
Millions upon millions of people have died. Tens of millions have died from

00:33:23.792 --> 00:33:25.976
pollution and climate change already.

00:33:26.571 --> 00:33:30.944
And clearly people, racial minorities, and the poor are more vulnerable.

00:33:30.944 --> 00:33:35.514
I mean, everybody's vulnerable, but like everything else, it's worse to be the

00:33:35.514 --> 00:33:41.154
subject of some kind of racism or social exclusion or social inequality and face these things.

00:33:41.154 --> 00:33:48.034
So it's not that it's not important for people, but the field of concern is

00:33:48.034 --> 00:33:51.464
all of life, which is a much bigger field.

00:33:51.464 --> 00:33:56.781
So save a person, Save a tree, save a lake, save a species of fish.

00:33:57.864 --> 00:34:01.764
Argue with people, you know, not argue in a mean way, but bring it up in your

00:34:01.764 --> 00:34:05.362
church, in your neighborhood, in your family gatherings, where you work.

00:34:06.222 --> 00:34:09.597
Every place has some kind of environmental organization. I mean,

00:34:09.597 --> 00:34:12.787
thank God we live in a country where environmentalists are not routinely murdered.

00:34:13.159 --> 00:34:16.267
There are countries where that's true. 40 to 50 environmental journalists are

00:34:16.267 --> 00:34:19.769
murdered every year because they're criticizing something in the host country.

00:34:20.221 --> 00:34:24.477
And certainly in a place like Russia or China, you try to be an active environmentalist

00:34:24.477 --> 00:34:29.438
in the wrong, say it in the wrong way, and you're not going to be around for too long.

00:34:29.821 --> 00:34:33.391
So, but we're, I imagine most of your listeners are in the United States.

00:34:34.148 --> 00:34:41.341
We can do things. We can show love. And in that love, which is a form of resistance,

00:34:41.735 --> 00:34:45.157
the energy becomes freed up because there is a tendency.

00:34:45.497 --> 00:34:48.647
And certainly it's not like I've never had these experiences.

00:34:48.647 --> 00:34:52.037
I certainly have. I've been doing this for 35 years, this environmental bit.

00:34:53.212 --> 00:34:58.837
And certainly at times I just get overwhelmed. But when you do something,

00:34:58.837 --> 00:35:03.677
when I do something, when you resist, a certain kind of fundamental energy is liberated.

00:35:03.677 --> 00:35:08.387
You no longer have to feel so powerless that there's nothing I can do.

00:35:08.387 --> 00:35:12.929
No, you can go into that hospital room and sing mama's song.

00:35:13.565 --> 00:35:17.297
And after all, what's a bigger cliche than mother nature, right? It's a cliche.

00:35:18.257 --> 00:35:21.419
Everybody says it, but what gave birth to us?

00:35:21.808 --> 00:35:25.197
And even if you believe that God created us, all right, but he created a mechanism

00:35:25.197 --> 00:35:30.520
of evolution so that there would be human beings at the end of that change.

00:35:31.394 --> 00:35:34.687
And even if you don't believe in evolution, well, God sustains us.

00:35:34.687 --> 00:35:35.865
Well, isn't that a miracle?

00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:42.489
Isn't that a miracle? What do you do with a miracle? Do you throw it in the garbage?

00:35:43.121 --> 00:35:47.707
Do you use a beautiful, suppose you're an aspiring violinist.

00:35:48.102 --> 00:35:51.707
And classical violinists need certain kinds of violins that they can't make

00:35:51.707 --> 00:35:53.101
anymore. I don't know why.

00:35:53.397 --> 00:35:57.947
But they're one, two, three centuries old that can be worth a half a million dollars.

00:35:58.616 --> 00:36:02.107
So if you're an aspiring violinist And somebody, you get a bank or a very rich

00:36:02.107 --> 00:36:04.757
person Says, well, you can use this violin in your career Because you're very

00:36:04.757 --> 00:36:09.167
good You don't use it as an ashtray You don't put your feet up on it.

00:36:10.526 --> 00:36:14.485
You treat it with the utmost respect Even though it's not a living thing But

00:36:14.874 --> 00:36:16.412
it's this incredible gift Well,

00:36:16.929 --> 00:36:20.789
take a look around, folks Isn't this incredible?

00:36:21.230 --> 00:36:24.957
Do you see the birds? Even if they're crummy old pigeons or seagulls And you

00:36:24.957 --> 00:36:27.433
live near the ocean Aren't they a miracle?

00:36:28.130 --> 00:36:32.424
Most of the listeners here, you can see in three dimensions.

00:36:33.125 --> 00:36:37.908
And when the amount of light in the room changes, your eye will change automatically.

00:36:38.297 --> 00:36:43.667
If you cut your finger cooking, you put a little slice there and you put a band-aid

00:36:43.667 --> 00:36:45.884
on it and you don't have to do anything.

00:36:46.018 --> 00:36:49.774
The body miraculously makes the skin heal.

00:36:50.360 --> 00:36:57.124
How incredible. And that's true. Things grow, things fly, things swim. the bacteria.

00:36:58.093 --> 00:37:01.611
All the dead stuff. So we're not endlessly accumulating dead stuff.

00:37:02.215 --> 00:37:04.432
It's one enormous miracle.

00:37:05.349 --> 00:37:09.523
We can really appreciate it. We can really feel grateful.

00:37:09.900 --> 00:37:16.698
And we can engage in some kind of struggle to protect it, to claim it, to reclaim it.

00:37:17.609 --> 00:37:24.308
This is, I believe, the central question of our time. There are other questions.

00:37:24.308 --> 00:37:28.691
I mean, as a Jew, I'm so thrilled by the rise of anti-Semitism.

00:37:29.528 --> 00:37:33.388
There are wars. There are other kinds of oppression. Incredible treatment of

00:37:33.388 --> 00:37:36.679
women is still terrible about the world. The murder of women.

00:37:37.488 --> 00:37:41.543
There's certainly racism in our country and in other countries. All those things.

00:37:42.431 --> 00:37:49.832
But we're all physical beings. All the claims we make, all the things we want to accomplish.

00:37:51.115 --> 00:37:58.940
Or things we depend on require a certain kind of physical, biological setting.

00:37:59.706 --> 00:38:05.838
And if we're messing around with that, you know, certainly Israel and Hamas

00:38:05.838 --> 00:38:07.182
can fight over that land.

00:38:07.721 --> 00:38:10.948
But what makes anybody think in 50 years, the land will be inhabitable because

00:38:10.948 --> 00:38:13.578
of climate change? It's pretty warm there now in the summer.

00:38:13.578 --> 00:38:15.378
What if it goes up five degrees?

00:38:15.964 --> 00:38:22.588
What's going to happen you know ukraine and russia can fight over a terrible terrible terrible but.

00:38:24.288 --> 00:38:30.168
Hot it's going to get really hot there eastern europe etc etc yeah all right

00:38:30.168 --> 00:38:32.248
i see you can really go and uh,

00:38:33.462 --> 00:38:40.238
i'm trying to let me see if i can combine this question here a popular phrase

00:38:40.238 --> 00:38:42.932
in the lexicon now is touch grass.

00:38:44.625 --> 00:38:50.343
So, do you think our connection to nature is more powerful than our need for technology?

00:38:50.994 --> 00:38:57.708
And would you say our desire for comfort is the basis of our conflict between technology and nature?

00:38:58.550 --> 00:39:01.667
That's a remarkably good question. That's excellent.

00:39:02.465 --> 00:39:10.234
There cannot be denied that technology makes a lot of things very much easier.

00:39:10.937 --> 00:39:14.900
I have a 40-year-old, highly disabled daughter, got many problems.

00:39:14.900 --> 00:39:19.672
One problem she had was scoliosis, a 135-degree curve in her spine,

00:39:19.944 --> 00:39:22.202
which was shutting off her lungs. She would have died.

00:39:23.126 --> 00:39:27.050
So they did this incredible operation where they fuse every vertebrae in the

00:39:27.050 --> 00:39:30.232
spine, and they put two titanium rods on either side of the spine,

00:39:30.626 --> 00:39:33.627
hook the rods, the spine to that, and that holds her up.

00:39:34.257 --> 00:39:35.963
That's pretty sophisticated stuff.

00:39:37.345 --> 00:39:40.580
That's quite remarkable. Well, without these things, oh, you can't see me.

00:39:40.580 --> 00:39:43.725
That's right. I'm wearing glasses. I've worn glasses since I was eight years old.

00:39:44.160 --> 00:39:47.818
Without these glasses, I couldn't drive. I couldn't read. I couldn't function.

00:39:48.155 --> 00:39:50.691
You put me in a corner, give me a tin cup to hold out on the street.

00:39:51.510 --> 00:39:55.083
So, endless. You know, I live in an old house, 100 years old.

00:39:55.454 --> 00:39:57.322
I don't have a smart this, that, or the other thing.

00:39:57.753 --> 00:40:02.080
But if I want it warmer, I use maybe one thousandths of a calorie,

00:40:02.080 --> 00:40:06.625
turning my thermostat slightly to the right, a sixteenth of an inch to the right.

00:40:06.944 --> 00:40:10.360
And miraculously, the oil goes into the burner down in the basement.

00:40:10.360 --> 00:40:13.568
Everything's taken care of. So, yes, it's tremendously dangerous.

00:40:14.504 --> 00:40:20.810
Comfort makes things easy, but sometimes it makes things too easy.

00:40:22.069 --> 00:40:26.709
If somebody looks up a fact on AI, well, okay, so you want to know what the

00:40:26.709 --> 00:40:28.562
population of Uzbekistan is, fine.

00:40:29.328 --> 00:40:33.579
But if you use Uzbekistan to write your philosophy papers, you know,

00:40:33.579 --> 00:40:36.559
it's like flying to the top of a mountain instead of walking up it.

00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:40.189
Yeah, you can get to the top of the mountain quicker, but look what you've missed

00:40:40.189 --> 00:40:44.049
by walking up that five-mile trail. Now, of course, it can be tiring,

00:40:44.369 --> 00:40:46.349
hiking the mountains, which I've done a great deal of.

00:40:46.809 --> 00:40:50.764
I really love the mountains. It can be a real pain. Your back can hurt your legs.

00:40:51.054 --> 00:40:55.640
The back straps cut into your shoulders. But you've had an experience.

00:40:56.099 --> 00:40:59.479
You know, you don't want to have a sexual encounter and just get to the post-orgasm

00:40:59.479 --> 00:41:01.921
feeling. No, you want to have everything that leads up to it.

00:41:02.171 --> 00:41:05.775
Doesn't always work out well, that's for sure. But there's a difference.

00:41:06.949 --> 00:41:13.305
So what we need to do is have some kind of pause, some kind of wait,

00:41:13.817 --> 00:41:17.039
some kind of reflection, some kind of evaluation.

00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:21.179
I tell my students who think I'm crazy because I teach at Worcester Polytechnic

00:41:21.179 --> 00:41:23.365
Institute, which is an engineering school.

00:41:23.992 --> 00:41:27.179
I tell them no technical innovations for the next 10 years.

00:41:27.306 --> 00:41:30.891
Let's spend all our time and energy and money learning to meditate,

00:41:31.164 --> 00:41:34.219
learning to deal with our emotions, learning to talk to people who are very

00:41:34.219 --> 00:41:36.312
different from us, learning to slow down.

00:41:36.754 --> 00:41:41.665
And I think I'm crazy, of course, but what if such a thing were to happen?

00:41:42.351 --> 00:41:47.129
We introduced technology which seemed just beneficial.

00:41:47.801 --> 00:41:51.404
Look what social media has done to our children. It's destroying their mental health.

00:41:51.879 --> 00:41:57.079
That's, again, not even a question for the general people in psychology and

00:41:57.079 --> 00:41:59.432
psychotherapy. We didn't think to stop.

00:42:00.436 --> 00:42:05.919
AI is running ahead. Break net. It's already out of control in certain places.

00:42:05.919 --> 00:42:09.229
It's already screwed around with the American government website, right?

00:42:09.969 --> 00:42:15.119
That just came out in the last day or two. So would there be ways in which you

00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:18.348
can save lives with more and more technology? Yes.

00:42:19.177 --> 00:42:24.086
But are no lives being lost now to the out-of-control technology?

00:42:25.612 --> 00:42:32.718
Is there now no misery because of the explosion of viciousness on social media? There sure is.

00:42:33.366 --> 00:42:37.889
There sure is. Do we need comfort? Yes. We desperately need comfort.

00:42:38.097 --> 00:42:42.658
And we're not getting very much of it from the hundreds of billions of psychiatric

00:42:42.658 --> 00:42:45.601
medications we're taking every year.

00:42:46.048 --> 00:42:53.194
Nature can comfort us, even when it's wounded. We can look at nature and say, we're not alone.

00:42:53.888 --> 00:42:57.104
You go for a walk in the woods, there are no people there. You're not alone.

00:42:57.790 --> 00:43:01.548
There's all those trees and the squirrels and the chipmunks and the fungal networks

00:43:01.548 --> 00:43:03.734
underneath the earth. You're not alone.

00:43:04.228 --> 00:43:09.518
We're not alone. We have relatives. The American Indians talk about all my relations

00:43:09.518 --> 00:43:12.610
when they give a talk in public. They're not talking about their cousins.

00:43:14.404 --> 00:43:21.365
We have all this it's precious we can still love it it can still nourish us,

00:43:21.887 --> 00:43:25.846
but it's fundamentally different and that difference its woundedness,

00:43:26.374 --> 00:43:30.583
calls on us to heal if we possibly can yeah.

00:43:32.668 --> 00:43:35.702
Excuse me, you asked the reader several questions in the book.

00:43:36.172 --> 00:43:38.657
So I want to flip one of those questions onto you.

00:43:39.580 --> 00:43:45.418
If a Catholic communion wafer in some mysterious way evokes the spiritual presence

00:43:45.418 --> 00:43:52.315
of Christ, does it matter if that spiritual presence contains carcinogenic pesticide residues?

00:43:53.030 --> 00:43:58.906
Yes, it's a way of pointing out, once again, that we are physical beings and

00:43:59.057 --> 00:44:02.668
our religions, which to some extent,

00:44:03.768 --> 00:44:06.934
not entirely, but in many ways, concentrate on what we think,

00:44:07.253 --> 00:44:11.201
what we believe, what we read, what we hear in church or mosque,

00:44:11.497 --> 00:44:12.664
they concentrate on that.

00:44:13.052 --> 00:44:15.880
They forget that they're physical beings.

00:44:16.390 --> 00:44:22.323
What does it mean to forget that the communion wafer is not just an idea?

00:44:23.053 --> 00:44:26.048
Because if you just want to have an idea, you can sit and think very deeply

00:44:26.048 --> 00:44:27.680
about the reality of Christ.

00:44:29.628 --> 00:44:33.668
The communion wafer is a physical object, just like the wine that a Jew drinks

00:44:33.668 --> 00:44:38.194
on Friday night is a physical object that has a physical history.

00:44:38.419 --> 00:44:41.276
What does it mean that this is poisoned?

00:44:42.737 --> 00:44:48.942
The major river in India is unbelievably polluted, and it's a sacred river to the people of India.

00:44:49.865 --> 00:44:53.179
We're physical beings, and we cannot forget that.

00:44:53.888 --> 00:44:59.338
Another thing that every religion has in common is it wants to continue to next

00:44:59.338 --> 00:45:04.342
year and the next decade and the next century. It wants to be here.

00:45:05.004 --> 00:45:09.555
But there's no guarantee with the way things are moving that it will be here.

00:45:10.048 --> 00:45:14.008
There's the pollution, there's the climate change, and there's the conflicts

00:45:14.008 --> 00:45:17.125
that will arise, the wars that will arise over things like water.

00:45:17.780 --> 00:45:21.598
When all the Himalayan glaciers are melted, there's going to be tremendous conflict

00:45:21.598 --> 00:45:23.390
between Pakistan and India.

00:45:24.053 --> 00:45:30.718
So what are we doing? How insane human beings have become. And I don't think

00:45:30.718 --> 00:45:33.528
computers make us more sane. They give us more information. They allow me to

00:45:33.528 --> 00:45:35.429
do research, which I very much appreciate.

00:45:36.732 --> 00:45:40.848
But, you know, you have a war between Ukraine and Russia. And one time,

00:45:41.208 --> 00:45:46.551
there's Ukraine blowing up the oil depots in Russia, and Russia is blowing up

00:45:46.551 --> 00:45:48.789
the barges from the Ukraine, which are filled with grain.

00:45:49.341 --> 00:45:55.971
So, you know, it's like some insane nine-year-old who takes a 12-pack of eggs

00:45:55.971 --> 00:45:58.194
and just smashes them on the floor.

00:45:58.548 --> 00:46:02.091
You think of all the energy and time and effort that went to produce the oil

00:46:02.091 --> 00:46:05.334
in Russia. And oil is a wonderful resource. It's incredible.

00:46:05.629 --> 00:46:09.671
There's so much contained power in a gallon of oil. It's spectacular.

00:46:10.048 --> 00:46:12.791
And you think of what it went in to produce the grain in the Ukraine,

00:46:12.791 --> 00:46:16.079
also packed in energy for the good of human beings.

00:46:16.990 --> 00:46:20.890
What are we doing? Well, we have to stop and think.

00:46:21.673 --> 00:46:26.007
Stop and think. And I think we know this.

00:46:26.715 --> 00:46:30.491
I think there is in the back of minds of many people that we have gotten out

00:46:30.491 --> 00:46:33.181
of control, that we're not looking.

00:46:34.161 --> 00:46:38.102
We got the foot on the grass, on the gas, and we're reading our phones.

00:46:39.359 --> 00:46:44.641
But it's very scary to make a change. Look, the environmental crisis is fueled,

00:46:44.641 --> 00:46:47.944
number one, by people making a tremendous amount of money.

00:46:48.594 --> 00:46:52.131
The amount of money that the fossil fuel people and plastic people and all that

00:46:52.131 --> 00:46:57.501
kind of stuff, construction, endless construction, that's staggering amounts

00:46:57.501 --> 00:46:58.974
of money. And you know what? That's the stuff.

00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:04.101
That's one thing. The environmental crisis is fueled by people who are used

00:47:04.101 --> 00:47:07.108
to certain kinds of what look like conveniences.

00:47:07.306 --> 00:47:11.501
Meat, especially red meat, chickens. It's terrible for the environment.

00:47:11.501 --> 00:47:13.453
It's bad for your health in any kind of quantity.

00:47:13.888 --> 00:47:17.281
So we're used to drive the pickup truck. Don't care. You know,

00:47:17.281 --> 00:47:21.371
throw things away. Throw it away. There's no away, you see. There's no away.

00:47:21.371 --> 00:47:23.188
There's just another place. There's not a way.

00:47:24.506 --> 00:47:28.173
But there's also, the third thing, is a kind of addiction.

00:47:28.625 --> 00:47:32.515
Now, if any of your listeners have had any experience knowing somebody very

00:47:32.515 --> 00:47:35.586
well who has an addiction issue, I do know that.

00:47:36.679 --> 00:47:42.397
People who are addicted to heroin or fentanyl or alcohol or reckless behavior,

00:47:42.966 --> 00:47:45.205
cigarettes, oh God, cigarettes, I went through that.

00:47:47.467 --> 00:47:51.135
They don't not know they're addicted. They know they are addicted.

00:47:51.135 --> 00:47:54.392
They know they're destroying their health, their relationships, their income.

00:47:55.409 --> 00:48:01.175
They cannot envision a life without the substance. They can't see beyond the

00:48:01.175 --> 00:48:03.211
next hour or day, the next fix.

00:48:04.030 --> 00:48:10.165
And we are like that. So the question, what does it take to break an addiction?

00:48:10.165 --> 00:48:15.765
Well, sadly, very sadly, sometimes it takes death. That's the only way it's broken.

00:48:16.356 --> 00:48:22.045
But sometimes people can step back from the abyss. And so, insofar as I can

00:48:22.045 --> 00:48:25.165
offer hope, and I don't usually think of myself as offering hope.

00:48:25.165 --> 00:48:27.531
I try to offer courage, not hope.

00:48:28.205 --> 00:48:33.167
It may be that we can step back from the abyss as it continues to get worse

00:48:33.498 --> 00:48:38.107
and worse. We can step back. We have developed some technologies that are better for the climate.

00:48:38.461 --> 00:48:41.871
We have to make that a priority, make that a priority.

00:48:42.132 --> 00:48:46.335
We have to remember that we would like our grandchildren to have a habitable

00:48:46.335 --> 00:48:47.662
planet. We really would.

00:48:48.033 --> 00:48:52.195
We really would. And if we remember that, than Republican, Democrat,

00:48:52.195 --> 00:48:55.115
this, that, or the other thing, we can take it seriously.

00:48:55.353 --> 00:48:57.855
We can take it as seriously as it needs to be taken.

00:48:59.387 --> 00:49:04.610
Explain this passage from the book. From politicians who brag about our noble

00:49:04.610 --> 00:49:09.560
nation, a light unto the world, to the religious leaders who represent themselves

00:49:09.560 --> 00:49:13.685
as moral experts, it's the emperor's new clothes all the way down.

00:49:14.454 --> 00:49:21.105
Yes, I think that, I don't know, the classic example is if you're on the Titanic,

00:49:21.885 --> 00:49:25.585
and you're arguing over what the string quartet should play.

00:49:26.984 --> 00:49:31.900
Or you're telling everybody how important your knowledge is while the boat is

00:49:31.900 --> 00:49:35.663
sinking, well, you're out of touch with what's really going on.

00:49:36.379 --> 00:49:40.204
And I think that, I mean, there are some politicians who are talking about it,

00:49:40.379 --> 00:49:44.250
even in places where it's unexpected that this guy Byrne, or Byrnes,

00:49:44.250 --> 00:49:47.066
I forget which one, who's running for governor of Iowa,

00:49:47.734 --> 00:49:52.730
as is Iowa, he's a Democrat, and he's talking about the consequences of pesticide

00:49:52.730 --> 00:49:55.290
use on the health of the farmers of Iowa.

00:49:55.290 --> 00:50:00.120
Now, this is Republican Iowa, right-wing Iowa, MAGA Iowa, but he's getting a

00:50:00.120 --> 00:50:02.421
serious hearing, and he's doing very well in the polls.

00:50:03.059 --> 00:50:07.540
So, he's seen it, and these people have seen it. They've seen too many of their

00:50:07.540 --> 00:50:10.292
friends get cancer from the pesticides.

00:50:11.274 --> 00:50:15.389
And there are other places where people do have a clear sense of it.

00:50:16.160 --> 00:50:19.880
Are you in Louisiana? Am I correct about that? No, I'm in Georgia,

00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:25.130
but I used to live in Mississippi. Okay, so I imagine you know that there's

00:50:25.130 --> 00:50:28.832
a section of the United States of America called Cancer Alley.

00:50:29.463 --> 00:50:33.631
You ever heard of that one? Oh, yeah. Right? That's in the coast of Louisiana, Cancer Alley.

00:50:34.048 --> 00:50:38.391
You know, 50-mile stretch of oil refiners and chemical plants.

00:50:38.786 --> 00:50:42.542
So people, I think, are getting the point.

00:50:43.088 --> 00:50:44.610
But unfortunately, yes.

00:50:46.030 --> 00:50:51.829
It's such a complex problem, and it's such a long-term solution that people

00:50:51.829 --> 00:50:55.319
with very short attention span, and if there's anything that gives you a short-term

00:50:55.319 --> 00:50:57.588
attention span, it's computers.

00:50:57.936 --> 00:50:59.445
They have cell phones, the internet.

00:50:59.887 --> 00:51:02.719
I mean, I've seen it myself. When I first started using a computer,

00:51:02.719 --> 00:51:05.839
I realized after a few years, wait a minute, I've written books,

00:51:05.839 --> 00:51:08.459
I've edited books, I've edited a series of books, I've reviewed books,

00:51:08.459 --> 00:51:10.863
I'm a very bookish kind of person, among other things.

00:51:11.367 --> 00:51:13.219
And I was losing the patience to read a book.

00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:23.823
Why? Because everything was so quick on the internet. So it requires us to slow down.

00:51:25.279 --> 00:51:28.499
Now, just that thought is incredibly radical.

00:51:30.177 --> 00:51:35.239
Slow down with the technological development. Slow down with the way we interact.

00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:42.212
Slow down and think about what do we really want. You can have a really nice Bill Klaas house and...

00:51:43.471 --> 00:51:47.818
If you're in the wrong place, you can't get house insurance on it anymore because,

00:51:48.991 --> 00:51:54.903
a fire and flood fears. Or the house insurance goes up to four times what it was five years ago.

00:51:55.982 --> 00:51:59.319
Is it going to be easy for us now? But we can't. It's possible.

00:52:00.191 --> 00:52:03.103
It's not impossible. It's possible. Yeah.

00:52:04.224 --> 00:52:08.020
You used this phrase earlier in our discussion.

00:52:09.036 --> 00:52:14.202
In your op-ed, The Summer of Our Discontent, you ended it by saying it's enough,

00:52:14.811 --> 00:52:20.239
can even coexist with justified anger at the irrational and unjust social realities,

00:52:20.819 --> 00:52:22.566
causing the environmental crisis.

00:52:23.054 --> 00:52:27.841
The trick, the spiritual turn, is to understand that such anger as a form of

00:52:27.841 --> 00:52:31.237
love and to let that love lead us to action.

00:52:31.789 --> 00:52:36.791
So, my question to you is, what actions can ordinary humans do to bring back

00:52:36.791 --> 00:52:41.346
harmony and repair the damage to nature? Okay, it's a very good question.

00:52:42.171 --> 00:52:47.199
And, you know, it's a question I'm often asked at the end of my really depressing public lectures.

00:52:49.096 --> 00:52:53.977
Well, the first thing I would say is, number one, take a serious look at yourself,

00:52:54.655 --> 00:52:58.211
about what you care about and how you feel about what's going on.

00:52:58.780 --> 00:53:03.344
Really, really acknowledge that this is not a small thing. This is huge.

00:53:03.633 --> 00:53:08.689
This is huge. This is the human future and the future of the rest of most species

00:53:08.689 --> 00:53:11.449
on Earth. I mean, I think jellyfish and cockroaches will do fine,

00:53:11.449 --> 00:53:13.902
but, and tardigrades will be okay.

00:53:14.465 --> 00:53:19.138
But the rest of them, deep trouble. by the time our frogs seem to be doing good,

00:53:19.783 --> 00:53:25.009
well some of them no no no a lot of them aren't i mean even 15 years ago they

00:53:25.009 --> 00:53:28.589
were in the in the great lakes they were born with organs outside their bodies

00:53:28.589 --> 00:53:29.698
because of the pesticides.

00:53:30.822 --> 00:53:36.069
Yeah but so first thing is take a look see what's going on emotionally second

00:53:36.069 --> 00:53:39.649
thing is educate yourself it's that's one thing about the internet there are

00:53:39.649 --> 00:53:41.427
all sorts of sources of information.

00:53:42.060 --> 00:53:45.555
The third thing is you can't do it by yourself.

00:53:46.002 --> 00:53:50.409
You can eat less or eat no meat, and you can drive less. You can do things like

00:53:50.409 --> 00:53:55.213
that. But to make the fundamental changes, you need political organizations, political actions.

00:53:55.723 --> 00:54:00.169
So find other people in your neighborhood, in your city, in your state.

00:54:00.529 --> 00:54:03.351
There are national organizations. There are global organizations.

00:54:03.856 --> 00:54:06.869
There's probably people on your block, right? And there are people,

00:54:06.869 --> 00:54:11.857
again, in your church, where you work, ask questions of people.

00:54:12.171 --> 00:54:17.561
And keep in mind that we all participate in this environmentally destructive society.

00:54:18.025 --> 00:54:22.839
So there's one thing no environmentalist should ever do, which is come across

00:54:22.839 --> 00:54:24.260
arrogant and self-righteous.

00:54:26.415 --> 00:54:31.329
Environmentalists should be the most cheerful, sweet, friendly people in the

00:54:31.329 --> 00:54:33.445
world. We should appear to have the best sex lives.

00:54:33.754 --> 00:54:35.629
Then people will want to come to our meetings.

00:54:38.437 --> 00:54:43.808
You don't want to do the thing Which is so prevalent in today's politics Both on the left and the right,

00:54:44.849 --> 00:54:48.549
which is, you know, lay a bunch of trips on people. Tell them how horrible they

00:54:48.549 --> 00:54:51.686
are. Are you a racist pig? Are you a horrible...

00:54:52.229 --> 00:54:54.942
No. Are you a terrible woke person? No.

00:54:55.661 --> 00:54:59.959
We want to say, look, we're all in this together. We'd love to have you come

00:54:59.959 --> 00:55:02.748
to our meeting. If there's any questions you have, we'd be happy to answer.

00:55:02.917 --> 00:55:05.070
What are your ideas? Here are our ideas.

00:55:05.750 --> 00:55:12.109
You want to talk gently and carefully when you're trying to get more people

00:55:12.109 --> 00:55:13.604
to be environmentalists.

00:55:14.202 --> 00:55:19.429
Screaming about it energizes the base, but the base is too small.

00:55:19.929 --> 00:55:23.971
It's too small unless it's be like 75% of the country, then we might be getting something.

00:55:24.493 --> 00:55:27.805
So those are the things I would say. Find something, and the last thing is,

00:55:28.293 --> 00:55:29.529
find something you care about.

00:55:30.156 --> 00:55:32.193
Do you care about this lake here?

00:55:32.861 --> 00:55:35.787
Do you care about plastic accumulating on the beaches?

00:55:36.634 --> 00:55:41.917
Do you care about the stuff in the air that makes your child cough so much.

00:55:42.866 --> 00:55:47.199
What do you care about what all the undersea noise is doing to sea mammals?

00:55:47.199 --> 00:55:49.877
We're driving them crazy with the amount of noise we produce.

00:55:50.637 --> 00:55:54.776
What is it that you care about? Work on that, respond to that.

00:55:55.020 --> 00:55:59.925
Chances are other people are, you know, 99 times out of 100, you're not the first.

00:56:00.985 --> 00:56:08.501
Go for it. Join in it. You know, the evangelical Christians who tend to be rather

00:56:08.501 --> 00:56:11.179
socially conservative, and they're like Trump and all this sort of thing,

00:56:11.730 --> 00:56:15.131
there was an evangelical environmental network.

00:56:16.017 --> 00:56:18.411
And they did some very good things for a while. I'm not sure what they're up

00:56:18.411 --> 00:56:23.418
to now. They did a cavalcade across the American South called What Would Jesus Drive?

00:56:23.877 --> 00:56:27.685
What Would Jesus Drive? And they started off talking to Detroit about fuel efficiency.

00:56:27.958 --> 00:56:31.401
They went through various Christian communities saying, we have to remember

00:56:31.401 --> 00:56:34.186
the golden rule includes our transportation choices.

00:56:34.922 --> 00:56:39.711
And they ended up at the largest Christian rock festival doing their thing.

00:56:39.711 --> 00:56:42.015
There were 1,500 news stories written about them.

00:56:42.590 --> 00:56:48.371
I mean, look, I'm your archetypal old 60s guy. If you heard of the 60s,

00:56:48.371 --> 00:56:49.485
that was me and my friends.

00:56:50.048 --> 00:56:52.835
What did I know? They were Christian rock festivals. But that's where they went.

00:56:53.061 --> 00:56:57.421
They were evangelical Christians, black suits, narrow ties, Bible under the

00:56:57.421 --> 00:56:59.615
arm, committed environmentalists.

00:56:59.928 --> 00:57:05.867
So it's everywhere. You can find it everywhere. You might have to look harder, but you can find it.

00:57:06.267 --> 00:57:12.161
It's there. You can do it. You don't have to huddle in your room with a sheet,

00:57:12.161 --> 00:57:15.911
with a blanket over your head saying all is due. Well, all is due,

00:57:15.911 --> 00:57:19.508
but get out into the world. The world is still there.

00:57:20.137 --> 00:57:26.122
Even if five out of 10 trees are done, five out of 10 trees are not doing. Give them a hug.

00:57:26.709 --> 00:57:32.381
Feel the energy. Realize these are your family, along with your mother,

00:57:32.381 --> 00:57:34.580
your father, your cousin, that crazy old uncle.

00:57:35.404 --> 00:57:38.516
The trees also are a family. We're together.

00:57:39.096 --> 00:57:43.061
What can we do? You can find it. You're smart. You're capable.

00:57:43.317 --> 00:57:45.398
You can. You have to look. That's all.

00:57:46.087 --> 00:57:51.201
All right. So based on one of your answers, This challenge, I think,

00:57:51.201 --> 00:57:56.902
that I've been giving all the guests will be interesting to see how you respond to it.

00:57:57.575 --> 00:58:01.348
Finish this sentence, I have hope because...

00:58:02.444 --> 00:58:08.440
I have hope. As I say, usually what I'm trying to do is offer courage rather than hope.

00:58:08.829 --> 00:58:14.891
But I have hope because life is a miracle, and human life is a miracle,

00:58:15.547 --> 00:58:17.893
and the future is not set.

00:58:18.955 --> 00:58:20.685
Well, Professor Roger Gottlieb.

00:58:23.611 --> 00:58:27.467
I like guests like you because I don't have to ask a whole of questions.

00:58:27.926 --> 00:58:36.311
I get you going and you go there. And I really appreciate the way that you explain

00:58:36.311 --> 00:58:41.631
and go into detail as far as what you're thinking and what you want other people

00:58:41.631 --> 00:58:42.804
to start thinking about.

00:58:43.373 --> 00:58:44.998
How can people get this book?

00:58:45.783 --> 00:58:50.920
Okay. The book is called Nature Spirituality and environmental crisis.

00:58:51.122 --> 00:58:54.775
Subtitle is Embracing a Sacred, Wounded Earth.

00:58:55.412 --> 00:58:59.381
It's on Amazon right now. The publisher, if you don't like Amazon,

00:58:59.381 --> 00:59:05.682
the publisher is Bloomsbury, a big, very big publisher, Bloomsbury and Amazon.

00:59:05.966 --> 00:59:12.101
If you are interested in stuff about me, the last name is spelled G-O-T-T-L-I-E-B,

00:59:12.101 --> 00:59:17.176
Rogers, S.L.E.B. I have a website. I'm not hard to find on the internet.

00:59:18.232 --> 00:59:21.252
You know, read the book. Buy 25 copies. You feel better?

00:59:22.928 --> 00:59:26.712
It'll improve your karma. Now, what better Christmas presents than this stuff

00:59:26.712 --> 00:59:30.243
I've been talking about? Yes, read it, and I hope it helps.

00:59:30.779 --> 00:59:34.806
Well, I hope people follow that suggestion and read it. It is a very good read.

00:59:35.108 --> 00:59:39.222
It's not really that long, ladies and gentlemen. So, it's really,

00:59:39.222 --> 00:59:43.992
really a good read, and it'll really get you thinking about not just nature

00:59:43.992 --> 00:59:47.141
itself, but about us as humans.

00:59:47.635 --> 00:59:51.402
And I think, you know, we always need to be reflective about our existence.

00:59:52.312 --> 00:59:56.192
And there were so many questions. So one of the rules I have is that once you've

00:59:56.192 --> 01:00:00.238
been on the show, that you have an open invitation to come back.

01:00:00.668 --> 01:00:04.862
And I would love to pick your brain some more about some things.

01:00:04.862 --> 01:00:10.002
There's a couple of questions I was like, yeah, yeah, I need to talk to him about that.

01:00:10.002 --> 01:00:12.902
But, you know, we're constrained with time.

01:00:12.902 --> 01:00:16.922
But again, I just appreciate the time that I did have with you,

01:00:17.698 --> 01:00:24.082
and I look forward to either reading something new that you put out or just

01:00:24.082 --> 01:00:29.562
your continued work, because I hold educators in high esteem.

01:00:29.562 --> 01:00:33.513
So again, Professor Gottlieb, just thank you for coming on.

01:00:34.094 --> 01:00:38.251
Thank you for inviting me, and thank you for your very precise,

01:00:38.704 --> 01:00:40.364
well-formulated questions.

01:00:40.968 --> 01:00:44.428
Thank you, sir. All right, guys, and we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:01:05.894 --> 01:01:12.473
All right, we are back. So I want to thank Roger S. Gottlieb for coming on the

01:01:12.473 --> 01:01:17.017
podcast to talk about his book. And please go get that.

01:01:18.482 --> 01:01:24.404
It's a very, very short book. It's under 200 pages for sure.

01:01:25.130 --> 01:01:31.133
I dare say it's under 180. But it is very, very powerful, as I would expect

01:01:31.133 --> 01:01:36.833
somebody who teaches philosophy to write one like that. And as you can tell

01:01:36.833 --> 01:01:38.065
in an interview, he can go.

01:01:41.415 --> 01:01:46.562
He believes in what he's writing and saying. And I greatly appreciate that.

01:01:46.788 --> 01:01:50.043
You know, as I told him in an interview, it makes my job easier.

01:01:50.043 --> 01:01:52.692
I can just throw out a couple of questions and let them have it.

01:01:53.886 --> 01:01:56.843
But, yeah, this is a really good book.

01:01:58.590 --> 01:02:05.103
It's not just your typical climate change is bad kind of book.

01:02:05.103 --> 01:02:09.411
It really gets into the essence of life itself.

01:02:10.206 --> 01:02:19.818
And how we deal and perceive life is connected to how we deal and perceive nature.

01:02:20.581 --> 01:02:27.864
It's really meaty. It's a good book. And I encourage everybody to get it.

01:02:29.713 --> 01:02:38.748
A couple of things real quick before we go. I was listening to a podcast that,

01:02:39.254 --> 01:02:44.408
I think is called Clock It that Simone Sanders and Eugene Daniels does.

01:02:45.235 --> 01:02:50.425
And they've been catching some hell based on the episode they had with Hassan Piker.

01:02:51.724 --> 01:02:58.388
And I want to say there's some people, my favorite contrarian had something to say about it.

01:02:58.539 --> 01:03:02.091
And a few other people, let me say this.

01:03:03.718 --> 01:03:08.780
That was a hell of a get to get Hasan Piker on their show.

01:03:09.963 --> 01:03:17.156
And, you know, whether it was whatever side you're on, whether you felt it was

01:03:17.156 --> 01:03:22.880
antagonistic or protagonistic, it was a good interview.

01:03:24.358 --> 01:03:27.783
And I think Mr. Piker acquitted himself.

01:03:28.770 --> 01:03:34.865
Because he's not really a boogeyman. He is who he is. He's a comedian who has political opinions.

01:03:35.602 --> 01:03:39.856
Like a lot of folks, Joe Rogan is a comedian with political opinions.

01:03:39.856 --> 01:03:47.132
A lot of people know him for the UFC, MMA stuff, but Joe Rogan's a comedian by trade.

01:03:47.724 --> 01:03:51.149
That's how he got into business. And then everybody remembers the show Fear Factor.

01:03:51.829 --> 01:03:56.426
So, you know, and some of the other guys, I forget the young man's name,

01:03:56.426 --> 01:04:02.153
Andrew, whatever. A lot of those guys are in what we call the roast circuit that Jeff Ross does.

01:04:03.610 --> 01:04:07.997
Which to me is hilarious. Now, I have never watched a Kevin Hart roast because

01:04:07.997 --> 01:04:09.654
everybody was just so upset.

01:04:10.352 --> 01:04:17.757
I said, man, I got it in safe. So one day, maybe after I've had a little liquid

01:04:17.757 --> 01:04:22.357
courage, I might be mellow enough to listen to it, but a lot of black folks

01:04:22.357 --> 01:04:24.170
were really upset with it, so I haven't watched it.

01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:31.115
But a lot of those guys that are in that roast circuit, that,

01:04:31.596 --> 01:04:35.024
you know, with Kevin, have their own little podcast.

01:04:35.914 --> 01:04:40.747
So, you know, and they had a major impact in the election. And so Hassan Piker

01:04:40.747 --> 01:04:42.479
is basically doing the same thing.

01:04:44.037 --> 01:04:48.204
And to be fair, so is Simone and Eugene, right?

01:04:48.825 --> 01:04:54.195
But they're actually, well, Simone is, you know, has been a political staffer and consultant.

01:04:54.780 --> 01:04:58.218
And Eugene was, you know, he is a journalist.

01:04:58.949 --> 01:05:03.987
So, you know, But both of them have extensive backgrounds in communications.

01:05:03.987 --> 01:05:11.837
If you know Simone's mother, I believe, runs or owns a black newspaper in Nebraska

01:05:11.837 --> 01:05:15.357
or something. I believe that's where her lineage comes from.

01:05:16.268 --> 01:05:21.560
Nonetheless, you know, so they gave Fasan his moment.

01:05:22.089 --> 01:05:28.497
And, you know, and he, I think he handled it well. And I think the way that

01:05:28.497 --> 01:05:32.526
people have been trying to make him a boogeyman for these candidates is.

01:05:33.907 --> 01:05:38.339
I think the approach that Simone and Eugene did was appropriate because they

01:05:38.339 --> 01:05:40.153
came at him like he was the boogeyman.

01:05:41.205 --> 01:05:45.677
So, yeah, I think it was a good show.

01:05:46.798 --> 01:05:51.929
But then the follow-up was with Senator Angie Nixon, and I'm calling her senator

01:05:51.929 --> 01:05:56.367
now because I believe that's what's going to happen in Florida.

01:05:57.173 --> 01:05:58.779
But Angie is running for the U.S.

01:05:58.779 --> 01:06:05.599
Senate in Florida and they asked her the question about Chuck Schumer.

01:06:06.811 --> 01:06:12.989
And I already knew the answer before she gave it because almost 20 years ago,

01:06:13.309 --> 01:06:15.443
I was in the same damn position.

01:06:15.815 --> 01:06:18.669
Well, really 20 years ago because that was the first time I ran and then two

01:06:18.669 --> 01:06:19.814
years later, I ran again.

01:06:21.128 --> 01:06:24.970
And I was a Democratic nominee again and I was in the same damn position.

01:06:25.703 --> 01:06:27.937
And got the same damn response.

01:06:28.902 --> 01:06:33.969
So for over 20 years, this dude has done everything.

01:06:35.978 --> 01:06:43.578
He could possibly do to make it hard for candidates in states where we got to have to work to win.

01:06:44.602 --> 01:06:47.826
He's done everything he possibly can to make it harder, right?

01:06:48.789 --> 01:06:53.021
It's like, it's one thing to meddle in the primaries, which I don't encourage.

01:06:54.804 --> 01:07:00.463
But, you know, the reality is a politics that happens because the party wants

01:07:00.463 --> 01:07:03.408
their particular candidate that they think can win, right?

01:07:04.197 --> 01:07:08.841
So, you know, they put a lot of money in Colonel Vindman.

01:07:09.593 --> 01:07:15.968
Colonel Vindman has been amazing. Colonel Vindman has given money to Angie.

01:07:16.583 --> 01:07:20.635
He has basically dedicated part of his pack to help her.

01:07:21.651 --> 01:07:25.663
But now that he's not on the ballot, he's free to roam about the country.

01:07:25.663 --> 01:07:31.265
So he's helping other Democratic Senate nominees with his PAC.

01:07:31.839 --> 01:07:33.464
He was sitting on $18 million.

01:07:34.248 --> 01:07:37.404
So it's like, okay, let's spend it.

01:07:38.347 --> 01:07:41.858
I'm going to make sure that Angie gets hers because she beat me fair and square.

01:07:42.642 --> 01:07:46.182
And then I'm going to help these other folks that need some help, you know.

01:07:47.308 --> 01:07:49.073
And, you know, Schumer and them

01:07:49.073 --> 01:07:53.560
wanted Vindman because his brother's in Congress. He's basically a hero.

01:07:54.208 --> 01:07:56.524
He stood up to Trump during the whole Ukraine thing.

01:07:57.202 --> 01:08:00.667
He's basically the reason why Trump got impeached the first time.

01:08:01.637 --> 01:08:06.941
So he's not a bad guy. He just got beat by a good woman.

01:08:07.573 --> 01:08:13.471
So it is what it is. That happens in politics. I can attest to that, right?

01:08:14.793 --> 01:08:21.238
So Venman said, all right, you need some of this money. Let me help you out.

01:08:21.976 --> 01:08:23.834
No strings attached, nothing.

01:08:25.142 --> 01:08:33.497
So, you know, that's part of the reason why she is competitive,

01:08:33.497 --> 01:08:35.909
because Vindman was not selfish.

01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:39.096
But Chuck Schumer is Chuck Schumer.

01:08:40.567 --> 01:08:47.087
And when it seems like this New York thing, and don't get mad at me,

01:08:47.087 --> 01:08:49.627
New York State. I love people from New York.

01:08:51.253 --> 01:08:53.564
I couldn't live in the city, but I love people from New York.

01:08:54.431 --> 01:08:59.608
Although people from New York have hurt me, right, politically and adversely.

01:09:01.107 --> 01:09:06.871
But I don't harbor any will against the state or New York City itself,

01:09:07.539 --> 01:09:12.980
but Donald Trump and Chuck Schumer are not your best ambassadors.

01:09:13.813 --> 01:09:18.998
And King Jeffries better start reading the room. That's all I'm going to say.

01:09:19.108 --> 01:09:23.241
I want to see that black speaker happen, but he's got to start reading the room.

01:09:23.945 --> 01:09:27.244
He needs to stop listening to Chuck, start reading the room.

01:09:28.004 --> 01:09:31.726
He might need to listen to Nancy a little more.

01:09:33.702 --> 01:09:41.019
Nonetheless, so when they asked, Simone and Eugene asked Angie had he helped her,

01:09:42.951 --> 01:09:50.542
she said that she has talked to him and that the response was, we'll wait and see.

01:09:51.850 --> 01:09:58.029
Now, you know, if this was November of last year,

01:09:59.393 --> 01:10:03.747
and she was talking about running and she reached out to Schumer and had a meeting,

01:10:04.443 --> 01:10:07.539
and he's late looking at who might be running all that stuff.

01:10:07.539 --> 01:10:10.765
He said, yeah, we'll wait and see. That's an appropriate response.

01:10:12.018 --> 01:10:17.259
When you are the Democratic nominee, duly elected Democratic nominee to run

01:10:17.259 --> 01:10:21.358
for the United States Senate, wait and see is not the answer.

01:10:22.464 --> 01:10:27.433
Let me see what I can do is a better answer. It's not great,

01:10:28.012 --> 01:10:30.147
but it's better than wait and see. We were waiting on.

01:10:31.109 --> 01:10:37.824
She's every poll has shown that the race is dead even. That's a seat that we can flip.

01:10:38.875 --> 01:10:42.929
But you ain't hesitate on Tallarico, and he's got an easier route.

01:10:42.929 --> 01:10:47.196
At least the lady in Florida has not been convicted on anything yet.

01:10:47.457 --> 01:10:50.116
I do think there's some corruption stuff floating around on her.

01:10:51.541 --> 01:10:55.059
But it's not as bad as Susan Collins in Maine. But that's a whole other story.

01:10:55.059 --> 01:11:00.119
But, you know, Tallarico is running against the worst possible candidate the

01:11:00.119 --> 01:11:01.277
Republicans could have put up.

01:11:01.878 --> 01:11:05.477
You had an incumbent senator, and you ran him out in the primary.

01:11:06.062 --> 01:11:11.099
So you basically said, we want the Democrats to have the seat because that guy,

01:11:11.099 --> 01:11:20.547
Ken Paxton, no way. If he called me and said, Eric, I want you to be on my political consultant. Okay.

01:11:21.304 --> 01:11:27.012
And I go through his background, I'd say, look, you can't beat Ken Paxton,

01:11:27.697 --> 01:11:34.394
Mr. Paxton. You can't beat the Ken Paxton that's been impeached, been indicted.

01:11:36.368 --> 01:11:42.631
And also, you know, your wife left you for biblical reasons. I mean, come on, man.

01:11:44.028 --> 01:11:47.878
What are we doing? Why do you think that you have a shot? Because you're still

01:11:47.878 --> 01:11:52.014
alive? I mean, why do you think you have a shot?

01:11:52.728 --> 01:11:57.116
Because it's Texas and they just vote Republican like on instinct? Ah.

01:11:57.726 --> 01:12:02.484
Alabama votes Republican on instinct, but they voted for Doug Jones over that Moore fellow.

01:12:03.674 --> 01:12:09.595
They sure did. it. Once it came out, he was using high school yearbooks as Tinder.

01:12:10.692 --> 01:12:15.018
It was like, hold up, we can't send Ed Bad to Washington. He was entertaining

01:12:15.018 --> 01:12:19.065
in the Supreme Court here in Alabama, but he can't represent us on a national level.

01:12:19.598 --> 01:12:25.778
The Alabama folks said, man, let's get the guy that put the bomber of the 16th

01:12:25.778 --> 01:12:26.959
Street Baptist Church in there.

01:12:27.408 --> 01:12:30.450
Let's get that guy that put that guy in jail. Let's put him in there.

01:12:31.710 --> 01:12:35.564
Even if it's just for the remain of a term. Let him do that.

01:12:36.378 --> 01:12:39.318
Not Rory Moore. That's not happening.

01:12:39.318 --> 01:12:46.088
So people, regardless of how loyal they may be politically or what their tendencies

01:12:46.088 --> 01:12:49.607
might be, if you throw a candidate out there that's garbage,

01:12:49.746 --> 01:12:52.405
they're not going to vote for him. That's not going to happen.

01:12:53.200 --> 01:12:57.468
And I get it. You got to spend money in Texas because Texas is very expensive

01:12:57.468 --> 01:13:03.218
state media-wise because, first of all, it's huge, and you've got multiple major

01:13:03.218 --> 01:13:05.551
media markets. It's Dallas and Houston alone.

01:13:07.014 --> 01:13:11.260
Then you throw in San Antonio, then you throw in Austin, Lubbock, El Paso.

01:13:11.492 --> 01:13:17.663
I mean, a lot of money's got to be spent in Texas just to be credible. We get that.

01:13:18.098 --> 01:13:23.104
But it's like, okay, you budget for Texas, and then you start looking to see

01:13:23.104 --> 01:13:26.785
where you're going to steal stuff. And now, because of what's going on,

01:13:27.693 --> 01:13:30.172
we're in play basically in every Senate race.

01:13:30.427 --> 01:13:34.740
Every one Alaska to Florida. Every one.

01:13:35.662 --> 01:13:38.941
We were just ready, the Democrats were just ready to pat themselves on the back

01:13:39.127 --> 01:13:41.263
with Roy Cooper in North Carolina and keep it moving.

01:13:42.160 --> 01:13:48.339
Sherrod Brown might return to the Senate in Ohio after they let him go.

01:13:49.762 --> 01:13:54.475
Because people are hurting. People need help.

01:13:55.241 --> 01:14:01.394
People want real American leaders. Angie Nixon is one of them, right? Right.

01:14:04.552 --> 01:14:10.825
Michigan had an embarrassment of riches. Dr. Saeed emerged at the top.

01:14:11.769 --> 01:14:13.268
Go for it. Right.

01:14:14.235 --> 01:14:18.796
And here's my thing. If you think El Saeed is this bad person,

01:14:19.534 --> 01:14:23.470
compare him to the bad person in the Republican Party.

01:14:24.114 --> 01:14:29.978
I give you three right we got Pax we already declared we got this guy Marshall

01:14:30.297 --> 01:14:38.843
who's a doctor in Kansas who sued his patients for $700 $700.

01:14:40.735 --> 01:14:43.575
He sued him that's a different kind of evil you're a doctor,

01:14:44.689 --> 01:14:49.699
You're supposed to take care of people. You get you enough money from the insurance

01:14:49.699 --> 01:14:54.323
companies to live the lifestyle you need to live. As a matter of fact, you're a U.S. senator.

01:14:55.205 --> 01:14:59.759
But you're going to sue people for a $700 bill? Really? Yeah.

01:14:59.759 --> 01:15:02.080
How much health care costs? $700?

01:15:03.121 --> 01:15:05.349
Don't even sweat that, bro. There's

01:15:05.349 --> 01:15:09.286
a reason why your health bills are not counted on your credit score.

01:15:10.000 --> 01:15:14.807
It's because everybody knows it's ridiculous, especially if you don't have insurance.

01:15:15.853 --> 01:15:21.184
Which should be telling to public policy people, but save that for another day.

01:15:21.712 --> 01:15:27.017
Mike Collins, here in Georgia, he's got Nazis running his campaign.

01:15:27.870 --> 01:15:31.780
So John Ossoff's going to beat the brakes off of him. Easy.

01:15:32.205 --> 01:15:35.897
If people just, the regular, if just a regular turnout happens,

01:15:36.712 --> 01:15:39.608
John Ossoff would beat the guy from like with eight points.

01:15:40.404 --> 01:15:44.059
If the turnout I think is going to happen, starting, I guess,

01:15:44.059 --> 01:15:46.997
in a couple of weeks, early voting here in Georgia.

01:15:47.689 --> 01:15:52.643
If the turnout is amazing, Collins is going to be a footnote in history.

01:15:52.793 --> 01:15:56.834
That's how bad he's going to get me, right? You know.

01:15:59.709 --> 01:16:02.869
I just don't know about Chuck Schumer. I don't know.

01:16:03.281 --> 01:16:10.469
You know, he's of that generation where he morphed from being part of the Senate

01:16:10.469 --> 01:16:12.009
when it was still kind of chummy,

01:16:13.057 --> 01:16:19.802
until when he stayed in long enough to see how divided American politics really is.

01:16:20.591 --> 01:16:25.439
And he hasn't adapted. He's still the chummy guy. He still calls Republican

01:16:25.439 --> 01:16:28.533
senators his friend, right?

01:16:29.589 --> 01:16:33.043
That used to be a thing. You know, when you got up and spoke, it's like.

01:16:34.409 --> 01:16:40.947
My friend from such and such, or whatever. It was almost like a colloquialism in politics.

01:16:41.984 --> 01:16:46.756
But the way things are going now, the nicest thing you can say is my colleague,

01:16:47.532 --> 01:16:48.729
because they're not your friends.

01:16:49.378 --> 01:16:52.005
They're trying to kill you. They're trying to kill us.

01:16:53.277 --> 01:17:00.896
They don't care. They are literally trying to live out every science fiction fantasy,

01:17:01.967 --> 01:17:06.919
you know, create their own Elysium, create their own world where they don't

01:17:06.919 --> 01:17:10.299
have to rely on Elon Musk taking you to the moon or to the stars,

01:17:10.543 --> 01:17:12.482
right? They want to wipe us all out.

01:17:13.344 --> 01:17:16.379
That's why Bobby Kennedy is in Health and Human Services. They want to wipe

01:17:16.379 --> 01:17:20.262
us out. They put Elon Musk over those because they want to wipe us out.

01:17:21.159 --> 01:17:26.039
You know, Donald Trump says, I don't care if people got to pay higher prices

01:17:26.039 --> 01:17:32.312
for gas or health care, because I'm trying to annihilate these people in Iran, and they won't let me.

01:17:33.514 --> 01:17:36.788
They say we need to talk, but I really want to annihilate these people,

01:17:37.009 --> 01:17:40.454
because I'm tired of them. They tried to kill me, so I won't kill them.

01:17:41.271 --> 01:17:46.349
That's his mindset, right? And whatever little restraint they have,

01:17:46.349 --> 01:17:49.515
they've been able to restrain him enough where he doesn't do that.

01:17:50.604 --> 01:17:53.939
It was up to Donald Trump, that nuclear bomb would have dropped in Iran already,

01:17:53.939 --> 01:17:56.240
and then where will we be?

01:17:57.469 --> 01:18:00.950
Screw gas prices. How about survival? Right?

01:18:02.685 --> 01:18:07.990
So these, all these people on that side of the aisle want to take us out.

01:18:09.055 --> 01:18:15.931
If you're a DoorDash driver and you are not white or Uber driver, watch your six.

01:18:16.789 --> 01:18:24.068
Because ICE might stop you in the middle of a delivery or the middle of a ride share, right?

01:18:25.019 --> 01:18:28.728
Shoot you and then throw you in a detention center.

01:18:28.949 --> 01:18:34.145
Not at a hospital, in a detention center, with a bullet still in your body.

01:18:35.044 --> 01:18:40.075
But Chuck Schumer wants to be buddies with them because he still has his mindset,

01:18:40.075 --> 01:18:43.885
well, you know, we got to work together and blah, blah, blah, this, and the other.

01:18:44.572 --> 01:18:48.438
Bro, you have a chance to build a train.

01:18:50.366 --> 01:18:56.055
To start ramming through legislation, start putting the president on his back

01:18:56.055 --> 01:19:01.001
feet, on his heels, I should say, and have him backpedal it.

01:19:01.949 --> 01:19:06.794
Even if he vetoes everything, put the pressure on him. And then two years later,

01:19:07.619 --> 01:19:11.572
it's like, look, we tried to do this, do that, but we had to get him out the way.

01:19:12.123 --> 01:19:17.260
And we can't let anybody affiliated with him in that office if you want what we're pushing.

01:19:18.256 --> 01:19:24.855
And you'll get a Democratic president. Whether that person is like Angie or

01:19:24.855 --> 01:19:29.686
Donnie, or that person's a moderate, You'll get a Democrat in there.

01:19:30.874 --> 01:19:34.500
And then we can start repairing the breach.

01:19:35.007 --> 01:19:38.908
And for the American people, especially my listeners, it's going to take a moment.

01:19:40.103 --> 01:19:43.852
Because what this man has done in 10 years is amazing.

01:19:45.605 --> 01:19:51.085
I just want people to understand politics like when you were a child and you

01:19:51.085 --> 01:19:53.376
had like a Lego set, right?

01:19:53.984 --> 01:19:56.590
Or I'm old enough to remember Lincoln Logs.

01:19:58.976 --> 01:20:02.438
Or even simple blocks, right?

01:20:03.629 --> 01:20:08.186
And how meticulous and how much time it took for you to create something with

01:20:08.186 --> 01:20:12.006
those Legos or those Lincoln logs or those blocks, right?

01:20:12.636 --> 01:20:17.087
How you had to stack it a certain way and all that stuff. That took time.

01:20:18.178 --> 01:20:23.196
But it didn't take no time for the dog or you or your parents to run over what

01:20:23.196 --> 01:20:25.468
you created and destroy it.

01:20:26.134 --> 01:20:30.758
No time at all. Just one bad step. One trip and fall,

01:20:33.296 --> 01:20:38.176
tell the dog to go fetch, dog doesn't weave, straight line, boom,

01:20:38.176 --> 01:20:40.654
there goes your Lego city, right?

01:20:41.188 --> 01:20:43.144
It doesn't take any time to destroy anything.

01:20:43.828 --> 01:20:45.970
And Donald Trump has had 10 years.

01:20:49.492 --> 01:20:55.326
To do damage. So there's a lot of damage that's been done, and it's going to

01:20:55.326 --> 01:20:57.550
take some time to rebuild it.

01:20:58.434 --> 01:21:03.305
Now, in the course of time, if the Republican Party changes,

01:21:04.370 --> 01:21:09.156
and some of them want to offer a conservative view of how to get to a point

01:21:09.156 --> 01:21:13.705
where everybody is whole and everybody is healed, let's have that conversation.

01:21:14.401 --> 01:21:16.598
But until then, uh-uh.

01:21:17.542 --> 01:21:22.666
If everything that they decide is predicated on eliminating anything that's

01:21:22.666 --> 01:21:27.211
not white, they can't be in public office anymore. Period. End of discussion.

01:21:28.198 --> 01:21:31.698
This is not about saving the white race. This is about saving the human race.

01:21:32.650 --> 01:21:37.065
It's about helping Americans, right?

01:21:38.082 --> 01:21:43.631
Making things affordable, which means that prices have to come down and wages have to come up.

01:21:44.933 --> 01:21:48.353
Period. If you're a billionaire in the United States of America,

01:21:48.353 --> 01:21:50.965
you're good for the rest of your life.

01:21:51.424 --> 01:21:55.344
If you achieve that status, you're good. So start paying some taxes.

01:21:56.491 --> 01:22:01.102
It was a privilege for you to make that money here. I don't care what kind of

01:22:01.543 --> 01:22:06.924
business genius you are, whether you're good at mergers and acquisitions or innovation.

01:22:07.935 --> 01:22:15.389
It's time to reward or show gratitude to the nation that gave you the opportunity. It's time.

01:22:16.264 --> 01:22:20.316
The giving pledge that some billionaires have signed up on, great.

01:22:21.274 --> 01:22:27.415
But the most effective institution to help the citizens of the United States

01:22:27.642 --> 01:22:31.062
by design is the United States government.

01:22:32.064 --> 01:22:36.969
The government that was forged on the concept of being independent of a king.

01:22:38.053 --> 01:22:43.842
The nation that eventually came around to realizing that every human being has rights.

01:22:44.943 --> 01:22:49.081
There's some folks that still don't get that concept. A lot of them vote Republican.

01:22:49.754 --> 01:22:53.248
A lot of them are elected Republicans. That's why they need to go.

01:22:53.916 --> 01:22:57.233
Chuck Schumer, you don't need to be friends with them. You need to be friends

01:22:57.233 --> 01:23:00.991
with people like Angie Nixon. It's one thing to talk to her on the phone.

01:23:01.298 --> 01:23:03.040
You might need to come down to Florida.

01:23:03.998 --> 01:23:08.710
If I was the DSCC chair, Mary, when can I come to Alaska?

01:23:09.729 --> 01:23:14.113
Reverend Hamilton, when can I come to Kansas? Dr. Saeed, when can I come to Michigan?

01:23:14.847 --> 01:23:19.892
Representative Nixon, when can I come to Florida? Representative Tal Rico, when can I come to Texas?

01:23:20.971 --> 01:23:24.331
That's what you should be doing. But that ain't in your nature.

01:23:24.995 --> 01:23:30.336
Why? Because I got a 20-year track record to prove that it's not.

01:23:31.781 --> 01:23:35.833
So everybody's worried about Akeem Jeffries not being speaker,

01:23:35.833 --> 01:23:38.010
because of positions with...

01:23:41.428 --> 01:23:45.981
The tragedy of Israel and Gaza.

01:23:47.009 --> 01:23:53.349
But if the Senate majority flips Democratic, I promise you Chuck Schumer is

01:23:53.349 --> 01:23:56.018
not going to be the majority leader. I promise you that.

01:23:57.025 --> 01:24:02.068
It might be days before we figure out who emerges as the majority leader of the Senate.

01:24:03.056 --> 01:24:05.689
Because Chuck's going to fight it. There's going to be some people who's like,

01:24:05.689 --> 01:24:11.414
well, you know, he is a minority leader already. There'll be people like that.

01:24:12.276 --> 01:24:15.869
With people like Angie Nix and all these folks that are fighting and scrapping

01:24:15.869 --> 01:24:22.814
and clawing to get in there, if they get in there, which I think they will, he's gone. He's gone.

01:24:24.099 --> 01:24:30.345
So, you know, you're strutting. All these new people coming in, they, uh-uh.

01:24:31.381 --> 01:24:34.405
Because they understand that these folks are not our friends.

01:24:35.210 --> 01:24:37.410
They are our colleagues, but they're not our friends.

01:24:38.532 --> 01:24:39.617
So you know.

01:24:41.287 --> 01:24:44.249
Situation, the AFL COO had to step in.

01:24:45.290 --> 01:24:50.951
I don't know who has to step in for Angie or some of these other folks,

01:24:51.599 --> 01:24:59.287
but somebody needs to step in to make sure that the Democrats don't snatch defeat

01:24:59.287 --> 01:25:00.507
from the jaws of victory.

01:25:01.485 --> 01:25:05.974
The people are ready for a change. They're ready for some help.

01:25:06.377 --> 01:25:10.387
They voted for Donald Trump over Kamala Harris because for some reason they

01:25:10.387 --> 01:25:12.309
thought he was going to help them.

01:25:12.779 --> 01:25:17.058
Even though his track record had shown he wasn't, they drank the Kool-Aid.

01:25:18.103 --> 01:25:25.251
Now they realize the error of their ways, and they're ready to take a chance on new leadership.

01:25:26.274 --> 01:25:30.737
So let's give it to them. Let's pull every resource. People are upset about

01:25:30.737 --> 01:25:33.233
Ken Martin, about, well, the Democrats are broke, blah, blah,

01:25:33.587 --> 01:25:37.955
because Ken Martin put money in early.

01:25:38.904 --> 01:25:45.237
A lot of the nuances and enthusiasm changes because he took a gamble and said,

01:25:45.237 --> 01:25:47.351
let's stir up some shit early.

01:25:48.065 --> 01:25:49.981
Let's not wait till Labor Day.

01:25:50.952 --> 01:25:57.349
Let's get some stuff started during the primaries. Let's get people showing up to the primaries.

01:25:58.171 --> 01:26:03.286
And in most of these states that people said Democrats can't win,

01:26:03.924 --> 01:26:08.516
more people showed up to the Democratic primary than the Republican primary.

01:26:09.522 --> 01:26:16.507
That's what Ken Martin was trying to do. Get the base excited to pick a champion to fight for.

01:26:17.382 --> 01:26:19.349
And then once that champion was picked.

01:26:21.104 --> 01:26:27.864
Apparatus will kick in. The DC, the DCCC, the DSCC, the PACs,

01:26:28.404 --> 01:26:35.590
the labor union, the trial lawyers, the normal apparatus will kick in and do what they have to do.

01:26:36.467 --> 01:26:40.394
And when history is said and done, if we flip the house in the Senate in this

01:26:40.394 --> 01:26:45.117
election, Kent Martin will be considered one of the best party leaders in history.

01:26:46.071 --> 01:26:50.024
Doesn't matter if you think that he's boring. Doesn't matter you think that

01:26:50.024 --> 01:26:55.548
he's vanilla, he took a gamble, and it looks like it's going to pay off.

01:26:56.511 --> 01:27:01.546
Nonetheless, Chuck Schumer figures out a way to mess it up.

01:27:04.427 --> 01:27:07.434
In the military, they say, lead, follow, get out of the way.

01:27:08.417 --> 01:27:14.162
Mr. Schumer has proven he's not capable to lead. Mr. Schumer has proven he's unwilling to follow.

01:27:15.098 --> 01:27:17.695
So Mr. Schumer, get out of the way.

01:27:18.775 --> 01:27:22.049
All right, that's all I got. Thank y'all for listening. Till next time.