Midterms, 15 Cents & Mission Featuring Kaivan Shroff, Louise Story, Ebony Reed and Kimberly Jamison

WEBVTT

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

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Third, go to the website, momenterik.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Hello, and welcome to In the Moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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And so this episode is a jam-packed episode.

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I am very, very honored to have an incredible combination of a returning guest,

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a young man who I respect and admire for his political knowledge and savvy and

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his frankness as far as how elections go.

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Then I have two ladies who I had been pursuing for a couple of years to finally come on the show,

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and it was worth every minute talking to them about a theme that seems to have

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been going on for the last couple of episodes dealing with black wealth.

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And then I have a first-time guest, another young lady, who's going to talk

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about the perspective of veterans and their families.

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So I hope that you will be enriched by the conversations that you hear today

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and that you always get something out of this podcast.

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And if you do get something out of this podcast, please support it.

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Subscribe, tell your friends, whatever. You can go to www.momenterik.com and

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do all those cool things, right?

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If you want to get caught up in some past episodes, learn a little bit about

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me, feel free to go to the website.

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So, yeah, I think I got everybody caught up It was a heck of a week And we'll

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talk about that once we get through the interviews But right now,

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let's go ahead and kick this program off And as always,

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we kick it off with a moment of news With Grace G.

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Thanks, Erik. President Trump dismissed Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem

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following multiple controversies and nominated Senator Mark Wayne Mullen as her successor.

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Following a massive joint U.S.-Israeli operation that killed Supreme Leader

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Ali Khamenei and several top military officials, Iran launched retaliatory missile

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strikes across the region, while the U.S.

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Confirmed it has struck over 1,000 targets and sustained six troop fatalities.

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Congressional Republicans voted to block bipartisan resolutions that aimed to

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halt President Trump's military operations against Iran.

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John Cornyn and Ken Paxton advanced to a Texas Republican Senate runoff,

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while James Tallarico secured the Democratic Senate nomination over Jasmine Crockett.

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Democrat Roy Cooper and Republican Michael Whatley won North Carolina's Senate

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primaries, while Congresswoman Valerie Fouchy survived a tight primary challenge from Nita Alam.

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A mass shooting at a bar in Austin, Texas left three people dead and 14 others

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injured before the unidentified suspect was killed in a shootout with police.

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The U.S. Justice Department has expanded its criminal case to 39 defendants,

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charging them with conspiracy and obstructing religious worship during a takeover-style

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anti-ice protest at a St. Paul church.

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Hennepin County Attorney Mary Moriarty has launched an investigation into potential

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criminal acts by federal agents during a recent immigration crackdown that resulted

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in the deaths of Renee Good and Alex Pretti.

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A federal judge issued a preliminary injunction to block a Trump administration

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initiative aimed at arresting and detaining 5,600 refugees in Minnesota who

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had not yet obtained their green cards.

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The U.S. Supreme Court reinstated the boundaries of a Staten Island congressional

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district, overruling a lower court's decision that the map racially discriminated

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against Black and Latino voters.

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And South Carolina's measles outbreak has reached 990 cases.

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I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for

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my guest, Kaivan Shroff.

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Kaivan Shroff is an American political activist, commentator,

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and social media influencer based in Manhattan, New York.

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He is a senior advisor at the Institute for Education and an NY-based public interest attorney.

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Shroff appears frequently on CNN, Scripps News, and a range of other news programs.

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He is a contributor for HuffPost, the Boston Globe, The Hill, and more.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Kaivan Shroff.

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All right, Kaivan Shroff, how you doing?

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Good, great to join. It's been too long. Yeah, it's been a moment,

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but I wanted to make sure I applied my rule that once you've been on,

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you've got an invitation to come back.

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Thank you. And like I said earlier, when we were getting set up,

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you've gone big time since the last time I talked to you, man. So I'm really proud.

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It's like I'm seeing you on everything, everywhere, and spreading the good news about Democrats.

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And sometimes I'm the bad news, but at least you're out there.

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No shortage of news, that we can say.

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Yeah, and I'm also honored that you took the time out to come on here.

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So let's go ahead and get this thing started.

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First thing I want you to do is respond to a quote.

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And here's the quote. Right now, Democrats are struggling with a question that

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they rarely confront directly, how to balance moral clarity with electoral reality.

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Yeah, I think, you know, is that what I wrote?

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I just wrote. Yeah, OK. It sounds like a couple days ago I had that piece on

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Hillary Clinton and how she came back really into the scene because of some of this Epstein stuff.

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But also we've been seeing her raise her profile generally around this,

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you know, talking about foreign affairs, talking about migration,

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saying certain things that you wouldn't hear, you know, an ambitious Democrat

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say today because they're worried about alienating parts of the base.

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But the reality is, we know that voters don't trust Democrats on issues like immigration.

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So we do need somebody that's able to, like I said,

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you know, balance the vision of the most pure moral outcomes that we can come

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up with, which I think we a lot of people really are motivated by with what

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can actually get done in the moment without, of course,

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sacrificing our democracy, which I think is really on the table in these recent

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elections and the upcoming ones. So I think that's really key.

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And what makes me scared, honestly, talking about the state of the Democratic

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Party is it does seem that there is no leadership, you know.

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Among the figures with the largest voices, right?

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Like Gavin Newsom or, you know, pick a different 2028 contender not to pick

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on him. people are not telling hard truths. They are not saying things that

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they don't think will resonate online.

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And I think if basically the job of the president or the voice of the party

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is to just crowdsource whatever's going viral, like that doesn't really mean much.

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Whereas you look at a figure like a Hillary Clinton, they don't really exist

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anymore. I mean, in America, those types of leaders.

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So I think it's a loss. And I guess I just worry that without that sort of,

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you know, thoughtful, offline leadership, I'm not sure how we will rebuild what

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needs to be rebuilt here.

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Okay. And I'm going to put a pin on that because I want to get back to that later on.

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But something I've added since the last time you've been on is this feature called 20 Questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20. Okay, 7.

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All right. What do you consider the best way to stay informed about politics,

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current events, health, etc.?

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For me, I will say, I know Twitter's been broken for a lot of people,

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But I, for the last decade, have really curated a list of about,

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you know, a thousand plus journalists,

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politicos, those types of people that I really trust in, you know,

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each state in across different outlets.

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And so I'm able to kind of rely on those voices that I've followed for years

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and know now. And I know who I can rely on to make sure they're putting out,

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you know, honest, accurate information. So for me, that's the best way to get

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urgent information. Yeah.

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But I do think that for my friends and stuff, I know most of it is also on social

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media, but on different platforms like Instagram, like TikTok.

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And there I will say I often get information, but it's information that I then

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make sure that I'm double checking and fact checking myself.

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So I might see it first on Instagram or somewhere like TikTok,

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but then I'm immediately Googling it myself. So there's a little difference there.

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Yeah. All right. So I guess the most immediate thing that's going on right now is the war on Iran.

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And I guess all this is going to tie into messaging in some way.

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But, you know, me being a former elected official, right, you know,

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when people say, well, what's your position on something like that?

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It's like, all right, so the bad guy, Khomeini, is gone.

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And that's something that people that love democracy or people that,

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you know, are not secure about some things are happy that he's not in the picture anymore.

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But then the flip side is there's a process to go about doing certain things,

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especially if you're going to say, I'm going to war.

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And then it's like we went about it all wrong but most of the time when we do

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these things right you know we do it wrong.

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At least you know when you get a president it does seem so yeah so I'm absolutely and I think,

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Sorry, I was just going to say beyond, right, just that Khamenei's a bad guy,

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it is a little bit of a dynamic of, you know, the devil you know versus the

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devil you don't, because there's nothing to say that whoever replaced him won't be worse, right?

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We don't know that. And because it's been done, to your point,

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in such a scattered, poorly planned way where even the Trump administration

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isn't even pretending they have a plan or idea of what's going on,

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we don't know how this is going to turn out.

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What we do know is it does make Americans more of a target and less safe.

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And, of course, all it seems on behalf of Israel, which has been this issue

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that's been dogging, I think, the Trump administration.

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It obviously hurt Kamala Harris and Joe Biden as well.

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But Americans aren't super supportive of getting dragged into these foreign

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conflicts. Yeah, the Machiavellian approach, the ends justifying the means is not really popular.

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I think the last poll I saw was around a quarter of Americans said, yeah, no.

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Well, 75% of Americans basically said, no, this is not the right idea.

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We shouldn't have done that. So as Democrats, but it's a struggle.

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How do you envision us being able to articulate the double thing that it's like, okay,

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we're dealing with terrorism, but we've got to respect the process and we got to make a commitment.

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Either we're going to be involved in regime building or nation building or whatever,

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or we're not going to do that.

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So how did how do Democrats get around that?

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Yeah, I think, you know, one of the unfortunate things that Trump is successful

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at is getting Democrats to focus on these process arguments that voters don't

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pay that much attention to.

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At the end of the day, voters are not saying, well, did this go up the right channels?

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And they're not following and focusing on the nitty gritty of that.

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I do still think that on the overall message, it's a winning message.

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Unfortunately, it's a terrible situation, but it's a winning message for Democrats

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in that it's yet another foreign conflict Trump is starting.

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He's really campaigned in 2024 on being, you know, the anti-war candidate.

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All of those on the further end of the left of the spectrum were saying Kamala

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would be the war hawk, just like, you know, obviously, we're seeing that viral

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Maureen Dowd piece make the rounds as Hillary comes back.

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And as Donald Trump attacks Iran, Hillary the hawk, Donald the dove,

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it's a famous headline at this point from 2016, because it's just so absurd

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how voters and the media were able to do that sort of flip and make it sound

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like it was the Democrats that were the pro-war party.

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I mean, that's never been true. It's pretty delusional. And yet the messaging

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has landed. But now Trump's going to own this. And I will say,

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even in 2025, when Democrats had success in the off-cycle elections.

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One of the data points that I think should have been a major red flag for the

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Trump administration is they were underwater 10 points with young men.

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And that was a key group that they were going on and on about how they had won in 2024.

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And now they're already 10 points underwater with them for the reason,

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the very specific reason cited, is because of the increase in all these foreign

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conflicts that he said he wouldn't be doing.

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So it's a major issue and obviously going to be something that gets worse and

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worse, I think, for the administration. the more cavalier they are about it.

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And as service members continue to die, you know, we're learning,

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you know, it seems every day and it hasn't been that many days yet that more

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and more service members were harmed in this.

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So it's going to be, you know, Benghazi level and maybe bigger.

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Yeah. All right. So speaking about bigger, the president had his State of the Union address.

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It was the longest State of the Union address in American history. What.

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Was your so i'm gonna i i

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didn't watch it i did not watch it congratulations yeah

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i uh you know but i i you know

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when i when i was in the legislature there were you know we had

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i had a republican governor out of

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the nine years maybe five and and

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i know that there's a couple of state in the state addresses that

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i didn't attend because they were

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doing something crazy at the time so one should

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the democrats have all left that's

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that's the biggest issue it's like in money born because i

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remember the the previous one they had the little paddles and that didn't go

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over well with the paddles so then the thing was keem jeffrey said well either

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you should come or you You shouldn't and be quiet or you you should not attend.

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And so a number of members did not and they had their own state of the union rallies or whatever.

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But then the ones that were there, like Al Green and Ilhan Omar, had something to say.

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So how would you have advised the Democrats to handle that?

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Well, you know, it's sort of a classic prisoner's dilemma dynamic,

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I think, where basically, and I think this is what Hakeem Jeffries had in mind,

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if all the members that showed up were just quiet, the story would have continued

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to be about Trump's failed economy,

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about his failed immigration policy, and also there's a lot of ways to speak

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through the guests you're bringing, right, Epstein guests, those types of folks.

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That would have driven the news.

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And especially with a really long, rambling, boring State of the Union.

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Trump didn't do anything to change things in his speech.

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And so it would have been the default position. I think people are tired of Trump.

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They're not popular, the policies that he's put forward. So to let people focus

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on that, by the way, for one 24-hour news cycle, because nobody really cares

00:19:11.582 --> 00:19:13.642
about the State of the Union anymore, and it's very,

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you know, it's a boring thing, and then we were going right into the Clinton

00:19:16.982 --> 00:19:20.302
testimony anyways, which we knew would change the story.

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So I think, you know, everyone, it's kind of a benefit if Democrats can look

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like the quote unquote adults in the room.

00:19:27.542 --> 00:19:31.922
But that prisoner's dilemma is that everyone also has the individual incentive

00:19:31.922 --> 00:19:35.022
to cheat and get more press for themselves and get more attention.

00:19:35.022 --> 00:19:38.062
And, you know, with respect to Al Green, right, he's facing to,

00:19:38.422 --> 00:19:42.822
you know, a couple of days ago, he was facing a major primary challenge,

00:19:42.822 --> 00:19:45.342
which, you know, it's close.

00:19:45.562 --> 00:19:50.222
So when you have those opportunities, you take them when you need that sort

00:19:50.222 --> 00:19:52.462
of political moment to happen for you.

00:19:52.702 --> 00:19:57.522
But I do think, obviously, that's much more of an individual strategy than what's

00:19:57.522 --> 00:19:59.002
best for the Democratic caucus.

00:19:59.242 --> 00:20:03.442
Yeah. Yeah, because because then you can give all this fodder to these right

00:20:03.442 --> 00:20:08.362
wing, you know, media outlets of running with that little story instead of having

00:20:08.362 --> 00:20:11.842
to contend with the fact that Trump rambled on for the longest period ever.

00:20:12.222 --> 00:20:15.022
And, you know, didn't really offer a vision for the economy,

00:20:15.242 --> 00:20:18.142
all of that. So that's, you know, unfortunate, I think.

00:20:18.342 --> 00:20:23.502
I was thinking about I remember it was one year we were playing our rival.

00:20:24.383 --> 00:20:27.883
Alcorn stayed in a in a basketball game and

00:20:27.883 --> 00:20:30.703
something had happened prior to the

00:20:30.703 --> 00:20:34.143
game as far as talks and all the you know trash talk

00:20:34.143 --> 00:20:40.883
all that stuff and so when when Alcorn when I think when they were being introduced

00:20:40.883 --> 00:20:45.303
or whatever I think all of us had like copies of the student newspaper and we

00:20:45.303 --> 00:20:50.703
were all just open a newspaper and just looked like we were reading the newspaper instead of, you know,

00:20:50.783 --> 00:20:53.943
paying attention to who Alcorn was putting out there on the court,

00:20:54.083 --> 00:20:58.743
I just said, I wonder if the Democrats all had like copies of the Wall Street

00:20:58.743 --> 00:21:02.723
Journal or something like that and were just sitting there while he was talking,

00:21:02.783 --> 00:21:06.723
they would all look like they was reading a paper, how much image-wise that

00:21:06.723 --> 00:21:08.343
would come across. I don't know.

00:21:08.683 --> 00:21:14.623
I just think there's some more creative ways to demonstrate what we're doing.

00:21:14.623 --> 00:21:18.643
And it just seemed kind of scattershot that some people were there and some

00:21:18.643 --> 00:21:20.703
people weren't, you know.

00:21:21.463 --> 00:21:25.283
And I think like the other thing too, right? Like so much was made and I did

00:21:25.283 --> 00:21:29.423
some of it. I joined one of the counter programming, you know, streams.

00:21:30.243 --> 00:21:32.203
But the reality is.

00:21:33.034 --> 00:21:35.914
Like, yeah, of course, it's cool for somebody like me to get to be chatting

00:21:35.914 --> 00:21:40.714
with like XYZ congressperson and like whoever watches. It's nice that they support

00:21:40.714 --> 00:21:43.074
what we're saying and that they're excited by our ideas.

00:21:43.374 --> 00:21:46.754
But it doesn't move the needle anywhere. It doesn't change anything.

00:21:46.854 --> 00:21:50.874
Right. Like most people, you don't have to watch the State of the Union.

00:21:51.054 --> 00:21:55.494
It's not like you have to either watch the main one or you have to watch some alternate one.

00:21:55.634 --> 00:21:59.474
If you are watching, you know, the Midas touch counterprogramming State of the

00:21:59.474 --> 00:22:01.034
Union, you hate Donald Trump.

00:22:01.194 --> 00:22:04.134
You're obsessed with politics. you're probably chronically online.

00:22:04.594 --> 00:22:06.934
Like, that's an activity you chose to do.

00:22:06.994 --> 00:22:10.674
And if you chose to do that activity, we know you're voting for Democrats.

00:22:10.934 --> 00:22:14.394
Like, it's just, it's not going to change anything. It's not going to change

00:22:14.394 --> 00:22:17.454
the messaging. It's not going to help us reach the types of people we need.

00:22:17.534 --> 00:22:23.154
It really only benefits the creators and influencers who are involved, and the politicians.

00:22:23.474 --> 00:22:28.854
And I think, like, that's not nothing, but it does seem like so many times, time and time again,

00:22:29.174 --> 00:22:33.914
that has been the strategy that Democrats are going with, is to build these

00:22:33.914 --> 00:22:40.574
kind of online response to what they see as the right-wing media ecosystem.

00:22:40.574 --> 00:22:45.334
But it's actually a fundamentally different project than what the right-wing

00:22:45.334 --> 00:22:50.594
has been able to do, which is to have voices like a Joe Rogan who talk about

00:22:50.594 --> 00:22:52.174
all sorts of topics, right?

00:22:52.254 --> 00:22:56.774
Or those pod bros, right, that people talk about those guys talk about for three

00:22:56.774 --> 00:23:01.194
hours every topic under the sun and then they have a little political bent and

00:23:01.194 --> 00:23:04.914
they go in on trump or they you know plug something that's very different and

00:23:04.914 --> 00:23:08.994
much more effective persuasion than what democrats do which is basically have

00:23:08.994 --> 00:23:12.234
you know that guy brian tyler cohen or whatever read viral tweets.

00:23:13.220 --> 00:23:16.440
And only discuss politics and only bash Donald Trump, right?

00:23:16.520 --> 00:23:19.140
Like, you've already captured whatever that audience is.

00:23:19.280 --> 00:23:23.740
And yes, like, more people may agree with that, that you find on YouTube and

00:23:23.740 --> 00:23:25.140
they're going to follow you.

00:23:25.180 --> 00:23:28.540
But you're never going to be winning over a Trump voter. You're never going

00:23:28.540 --> 00:23:30.980
to be turning out an independent who didn't show up and vote.

00:23:31.140 --> 00:23:33.080
And that's what we need to do. Yeah.

00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:41.060
So you're saying I'm not hitting a mag of folks at all. No, we're relying on you.

00:23:43.520 --> 00:23:51.520
All right. So today, as we're recording, is, I guess, the first major primary day in the country.

00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:56.960
And we've got three states. We've got Arkansas, which nobody seems to be talking about.

00:23:57.120 --> 00:24:01.180
Shout out to my former guest, Chris Jones, who's running for Congress up there.

00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:06.560
North Carolina and Texas. I wanted to focus a little bit on Texas,

00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:11.740
of course, because we got two rising stars in the Democratic Party battling

00:24:11.740 --> 00:24:14.320
each other for this coveted U.S. Senate seat.

00:24:15.300 --> 00:24:21.440
And the Republicans have the incumbent, a black candidate running,

00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:28.140
which is, I think, historic that Texas has two black candidates running for the U.S.

00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:30.780
Senate at the same time. And then you have the.

00:24:32.305 --> 00:24:35.305
The the the unimpeachable one.

00:24:38.225 --> 00:24:44.325
Yeah. So wild. What's your what's your take on Texas and what's going on?

00:24:44.805 --> 00:24:50.485
You know, I think I do think that people are overly optimistic in general about

00:24:50.485 --> 00:24:51.665
Democrats chances there.

00:24:51.845 --> 00:24:55.185
I think we're seeing some positive turnout patterns and people will have to

00:24:55.185 --> 00:24:59.385
keep diving into what those are and were and what they say about the state as

00:24:59.385 --> 00:25:00.525
we head into the general.

00:25:00.525 --> 00:25:07.065
But, you know, moreover, this has really become, I think, a really unproductive

00:25:07.065 --> 00:25:11.345
proxy battle in the Democratic Party about a lot of issues.

00:25:11.485 --> 00:25:14.785
And to me, the main issue is, quote unquote, identity politics,

00:25:14.785 --> 00:25:19.005
which I think after 2024, a lot of people,

00:25:19.705 --> 00:25:25.005
liberal people, progressive people, either quietly to themselves or even publicly

00:25:25.005 --> 00:25:28.565
sort of came away with, I think, a wrong takeaway.

00:25:28.565 --> 00:25:32.985
That running diverse candidates is what costs Democrats elections.

00:25:32.985 --> 00:25:36.725
They look at, you know, Hillary Clinton lost, Joe Biden won, Kamala Harris lost...

00:25:37.455 --> 00:25:41.435
But there's so many other factors going on at the same time that I think it's

00:25:41.435 --> 00:25:46.235
actually, it almost reveals a bias that they want that to be the reason because

00:25:46.235 --> 00:25:52.095
they don't like that the party's gotten more diverse and that we've had to have more nuanced,

00:25:52.355 --> 00:25:56.955
impressive conversations around certain issues. And they want to throw all that away.

00:25:57.155 --> 00:26:01.155
You know, one sort of line I've seen come up all the time in this election is

00:26:01.155 --> 00:26:02.955
we're not going back to 2018.

00:26:03.395 --> 00:26:07.975
As if like, what does that mean? Like, we're not going to listen to diverse

00:26:07.975 --> 00:26:09.775
communities and take them seriously.

00:26:10.035 --> 00:26:14.575
Of course, nobody's saying that Jasmine Crockett should just win because she's a black woman.

00:26:14.755 --> 00:26:18.795
But it does seem like there's a default on the other side that it's smarter

00:26:18.795 --> 00:26:23.175
and better and wiser to run James Tallarico because he's a straight white guy.

00:26:23.215 --> 00:26:27.095
And that's less objectionable. And he may be able to win certain types of voters over.

00:26:27.935 --> 00:26:32.615
Then the other part of it is if you believe that the same people who believe

00:26:32.615 --> 00:26:37.215
that type of thing seem very hypocritical to me because when we're talking about

00:26:37.215 --> 00:26:39.115
a candidate like Graham Plattner in Maine, right?

00:26:39.723 --> 00:26:44.683
Still love that guy. He is so volatile and has so much drama surrounding him.

00:26:44.783 --> 00:26:47.443
He's absolutely not the safe bet candidate, right?

00:26:47.623 --> 00:26:51.983
So if that's your argument, it really does seem like, okay, in every case,

00:26:52.043 --> 00:26:54.883
you find a way to have, you know, the straight board, like white guy,

00:26:55.163 --> 00:26:58.683
be the person that you think needs to be the primary winner.

00:26:58.863 --> 00:27:03.023
And whatever the circumstances, you happen to map it on to whoever that candidate

00:27:03.023 --> 00:27:05.723
is with no ideological consistency.

00:27:06.123 --> 00:27:09.323
And then the other piece of it is that we're seeing a lot of these figures,

00:27:09.543 --> 00:27:13.623
whether it's Tim Miller or Josh Barrow, people new to the Democratic Party,

00:27:13.823 --> 00:27:17.803
frankly, in the last decade, these media figures, these never Trump voices, you know,

00:27:18.183 --> 00:27:22.483
double down and say like anyone that calls out what they see as racism or sexism

00:27:22.483 --> 00:27:25.283
against Crockett is weaponizing those things.

00:27:25.503 --> 00:27:29.183
And that is just such a reductive, unsophisticated conversation.

00:27:29.763 --> 00:27:32.743
Absolutely. Jasmine Crockett has been treated, I think,

00:27:33.243 --> 00:27:36.083
unfairly by certain people, Well, not by everyone, but yeah,

00:27:36.243 --> 00:27:39.723
they were writing about her acrylic nails and her fake eyelashes,

00:27:39.743 --> 00:27:45.143
right, as she jumped into the race as a highly successful national figure,

00:27:45.663 --> 00:27:47.483
congresswoman, attorney.

00:27:47.943 --> 00:27:50.443
That's not what they were focusing on. They were focusing on her appearance,

00:27:50.443 --> 00:27:52.643
and they weren't doing that to James Tallarico.

00:27:52.883 --> 00:27:56.503
By the way, that's nothing new. That happens to these diverse candidates all

00:27:56.503 --> 00:27:59.803
the time, and I absolutely think we need to keep calling it out,

00:27:59.843 --> 00:28:02.943
and it's not weaponizing anything. It's having a real conversation.

00:28:03.663 --> 00:28:11.323
Yeah. You know, James is a good regional candidate to me.

00:28:11.603 --> 00:28:16.503
When I first heard him talk, the first thing I thought about was white Southern

00:28:16.503 --> 00:28:18.463
Baptist preacher, right?

00:28:18.623 --> 00:28:20.883
And he just happens to be running as a Democrat.

00:28:21.343 --> 00:28:24.683
And that plays well in Texas.

00:28:24.943 --> 00:28:27.783
That'll play well in Mississippi. That'll play well in Georgia,

00:28:28.043 --> 00:28:31.043
Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas. But,

00:28:31.766 --> 00:28:35.626
You know, when you run in for the U.S. Senate, even though you're running a

00:28:35.626 --> 00:28:37.606
particular state, that's a national position.

00:28:38.966 --> 00:28:46.346
And, you know, I think the more people we get like Jasmine who can reach a base

00:28:46.346 --> 00:28:51.366
of people outside of their particular region or state,

00:28:51.546 --> 00:28:56.246
that can generate the national attention to the issues that we need to be addressing.

00:28:56.606 --> 00:29:01.186
Right. I think that's more plausible and you can win.

00:29:01.186 --> 00:29:06.326
You know, and I just remember, I'm trying not to make this about me,

00:29:06.446 --> 00:29:13.386
but I remember when we had a black guy, he was, he was Johnny Dupree, a good friend of mine.

00:29:13.766 --> 00:29:17.246
He was the mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi, which is like the fourth largest

00:29:17.246 --> 00:29:18.386
city in Mississippi at the time.

00:29:18.886 --> 00:29:23.386
And he was running against a guy named Bill Luckett, whose best friend was Morgan Freeman.

00:29:23.546 --> 00:29:26.986
And they owned a blues club up in Clarksdale, Mississippi.

00:29:27.826 --> 00:29:32.226
So Clarksdale is in the second congressional district. Democrats always win

00:29:32.226 --> 00:29:34.366
that. I won it big when I ran for the U.S. Senate.

00:29:34.626 --> 00:29:37.306
Anybody Democrat is going to win the Southern Congressional District.

00:29:37.906 --> 00:29:45.406
But Johnny Dupree in Hattiesburg, he was in the third, which was a swing, right?

00:29:45.506 --> 00:29:48.826
The first district and the third district, a strong Democrat can swing it.

00:29:49.006 --> 00:29:50.146
Doesn't matter if they're white or black.

00:29:51.626 --> 00:29:56.086
And, you know, I was pushing Johnny as opposed to,

00:29:56.855 --> 00:30:00.775
bill. And everybody kept saying, well, you're just pushing Johnny because he's black.

00:30:00.875 --> 00:30:06.595
And I said, no, I'm pushing Johnny because Johnny comes from a part of the state that we need to win.

00:30:07.035 --> 00:30:12.675
He's been an elected official in that third congressional district for almost 20 years.

00:30:13.195 --> 00:30:17.935
It's like he was a county commissioner or supervisor, as we call him,

00:30:18.035 --> 00:30:20.775
and then he became the mayor and now he's a

00:30:20.775 --> 00:30:24.135
state legislator by the way but it's like

00:30:24.135 --> 00:30:29.455
he's he he has he has a history of getting votes in a place where we need to

00:30:29.455 --> 00:30:36.355
get votes and so and and you know able to get some money so and then johnny

00:30:36.355 --> 00:30:40.435
ended up winning the primary right and then you know he got beat in the but

00:30:40.435 --> 00:30:42.495
it's mississippi still but nonetheless list.

00:30:43.505 --> 00:30:48.985
We, you know, the argument that has to be made for candidates like Jasmine Crockett

00:30:48.985 --> 00:30:53.365
is don't get hung up on the race, get hung up on the strategy.

00:30:53.605 --> 00:30:57.445
Do we need those votes in Harris County and Dallas County?

00:30:57.725 --> 00:31:03.305
Where is she the strongest at? And if historically we haven't been getting the

00:31:03.305 --> 00:31:08.825
votes or she can tap in the votes that we haven't been able to get in other parts of the state,

00:31:09.065 --> 00:31:13.605
why not support her as opposed to the Tallarico or vice versa?

00:31:13.825 --> 00:31:15.465
Right. I don't have anything against. Yeah.

00:31:15.825 --> 00:31:19.265
I'm saying. Yeah, no, I think that does make sense.

00:31:19.465 --> 00:31:24.125
At the same time, I think both candidates were running on this idea that they

00:31:24.125 --> 00:31:25.925
could turn out a different type of voter.

00:31:26.305 --> 00:31:30.865
And it does look like turnout has exploded. So maybe either or both of them

00:31:30.865 --> 00:31:32.225
were correct about that.

00:31:32.385 --> 00:31:35.485
And if we see that pattern continue, maybe they can be successful.

00:31:35.485 --> 00:31:40.925
I think the bigger issue to me about James, for example, I actually don't have

00:31:40.925 --> 00:31:43.285
an issue with him. I think he is like overhyped.

00:31:43.465 --> 00:31:47.145
So it does sort of give you that urge to kind of be like, well,

00:31:47.445 --> 00:31:51.485
okay, like he just showed up on the scene on the national scene, at least.

00:31:51.805 --> 00:31:56.785
Yes, he's gone viral for this like very one note TikTok format of like leaning

00:31:56.785 --> 00:32:00.945
into religion and sort of flipping the Republican talking points on its head.

00:32:00.945 --> 00:32:05.885
That doesn't, to me, merit a Senate seat, and it doesn't demonstrate that you

00:32:05.885 --> 00:32:10.145
have the experience or leadership to do anything of value.

00:32:10.145 --> 00:32:14.145
It doesn't mean you don't either. What I don't like about his campaign is I

00:32:14.145 --> 00:32:18.865
do think that they have been a little dirty, honestly, the way that they have

00:32:18.865 --> 00:32:20.665
been engaging with creators.

00:32:21.045 --> 00:32:28.625
There's been a lot of infighting, a lot of really nastiness and bullying online, and.

00:32:29.362 --> 00:32:32.742
Especially over issues of race and gender and

00:32:32.742 --> 00:32:36.022
attacking jasmine crockett and while

00:32:36.022 --> 00:32:38.722
his team you know continues to say oh james is only

00:32:38.722 --> 00:32:41.722
going to run a positive campaign they have their super packs and

00:32:41.722 --> 00:32:45.162
their attack dogs people like excuse me keith edwards

00:32:45.162 --> 00:32:48.182
these other big youtubers that

00:32:48.182 --> 00:32:52.142
clearly have a relationship with the campaign that the campaign even privately

00:32:52.142 --> 00:32:56.622
texted folks saying they were going to reach out to to try to get them to stop

00:32:56.622 --> 00:33:00.882
being so aggressive and they never did that outreach so it's sort of like throwing

00:33:00.882 --> 00:33:04.522
the rock and hiding the hand and I don't you know as because I don't know that

00:33:04.522 --> 00:33:06.642
much about him and we don't know his record,

00:33:07.102 --> 00:33:12.462
to me that's a major red flag like just come out and be a big boy and have a

00:33:12.462 --> 00:33:19.062
real you know rough primary it is a rough primary be honest about it so I didn't

00:33:19.062 --> 00:33:23.582
like that so who do you think is going to pull it up do you think it's going

00:33:23.582 --> 00:33:26.062
to be Jasmine or do you think it's going to be Tallarico.

00:33:26.788 --> 00:33:30.928
It's so hard to know. I think like going off the traditional assessments,

00:33:31.268 --> 00:33:33.328
I'd say Crockett has a slight edge.

00:33:33.508 --> 00:33:38.768
She was up in the polls before voting started. She has the much higher name ID.

00:33:39.308 --> 00:33:43.968
Then, of course, though, you know, that Cole Bear thing was a boost to Tallarico,

00:33:44.388 --> 00:33:49.908
a national headline, which he raised tons of money on. And it's very hard to get a sense.

00:33:50.028 --> 00:33:54.628
You know, I think this is the other thing, too, with Democrats failing to build

00:33:54.628 --> 00:33:58.868
a diverse and agile new media ecosystem. It really does lean.

00:33:59.068 --> 00:34:03.248
You know, young white YouTubers is who they put all their stock in.

00:34:04.188 --> 00:34:07.348
If Crockett pulls it off I think they'll need

00:34:07.348 --> 00:34:11.048
to reflect because the conversation online is so pro-Talerico

00:34:11.048 --> 00:34:14.008
that most of those people I think that are following those

00:34:14.008 --> 00:34:18.768
guys and supporting them would be shocked if Crockett wins despite again her

00:34:18.768 --> 00:34:22.588
being up in the polls her having the higher name ID her coming in right when

00:34:22.588 --> 00:34:26.528
she jumped in they were saying she shouldn't jump in because she'll win and

00:34:26.528 --> 00:34:30.028
then she'll lose the general now they claim like she has no chance to win so

00:34:30.028 --> 00:34:31.608
who knows it can't really be both.

00:34:32.487 --> 00:34:35.907
No, I do think she has a slight edge. And either way, either way,

00:34:35.987 --> 00:34:39.587
I think what's going to be really important is this is a little bit of a test

00:34:39.587 --> 00:34:44.227
case of how quickly can the left come back together,

00:34:44.467 --> 00:34:48.467
regardless of who wins, to try to marshal and beat, you know,

00:34:48.667 --> 00:34:51.387
the Republican, because we're seeing this in other races, right?

00:34:51.527 --> 00:34:54.787
Like that main race is also pretty divisive and controversial.

00:34:55.247 --> 00:34:59.307
And this won't be the only primary where people have a lot of feelings about it.

00:34:59.307 --> 00:35:03.047
So I do think we need to have more open and honest conversations about these things,

00:35:03.267 --> 00:35:06.587
not in a way that's like canceling everyone who disagrees or,

00:35:06.807 --> 00:35:11.987
you know, all the vitriol, but real acknowledgement that there are these disagreements

00:35:11.987 --> 00:35:15.467
with voters and certain groups do feel ignored and do feel like,

00:35:15.667 --> 00:35:18.767
you know, I mean, because what is it to say if at the end of the day,

00:35:18.887 --> 00:35:23.267
it is really true that only white men can win in a certain region?

00:35:23.267 --> 00:35:29.047
I'm not saying that I don't see the argument to run those people But you are

00:35:29.047 --> 00:35:35.187
basically then asking the minorities in that area to accept second-class citizen status, right?

00:35:35.347 --> 00:35:39.947
And I could totally understand why a lot of folks are super not down with that

00:35:39.947 --> 00:35:43.227
Why that's a non-starter and why to them it's like,

00:35:43.347 --> 00:35:46.767
all right Well, like you have to realize a lot of the people doing that I'm

00:35:46.767 --> 00:35:50.567
sure you do realize but your listeners the people doing this grassroots work

00:35:50.567 --> 00:35:52.767
every day when it's not a splashy,

00:35:52.927 --> 00:35:54.547
sexy election season or cycle,

00:35:54.747 --> 00:35:59.087
a lot of them are those women of color that have a strong opinion in this race

00:35:59.087 --> 00:36:02.467
that do the organizing work, that have the community connections,

00:36:02.467 --> 00:36:06.547
that do that type of powerful sort of, you know.

00:36:07.326 --> 00:36:11.926
Communication, educating their communities, all these things year round.

00:36:12.106 --> 00:36:16.046
And we need those voices to win a general election. And if you ignore them and

00:36:16.046 --> 00:36:20.466
if you say, well, you're not good enough to actually be elevated to a position

00:36:20.466 --> 00:36:24.046
of power because we don't think it's convenient right now, then you're going

00:36:24.046 --> 00:36:26.226
to lose that support. And I think that's critical.

00:36:26.686 --> 00:36:30.826
That's been the backbone of the Democratic Party across the country for a long time.

00:36:31.306 --> 00:36:34.286
So last question about Texas. Do you think

00:36:34.286 --> 00:36:37.106
that the winner of the primary today will have

00:36:37.106 --> 00:36:41.066
an advantage considering that congressman

00:36:41.066 --> 00:36:43.986
hunt is going to pull enough votes to force a

00:36:43.986 --> 00:36:47.346
runoff between paxton and cronin

00:36:47.346 --> 00:36:52.746
yeah i mean i think it'll be a slight advantage the reality is these two have

00:36:52.746 --> 00:36:57.346
like gone in the gutter beyond and anyone following it closely like knows that

00:36:57.346 --> 00:37:04.726
people in the midterms tend to i think actually really make their opinions before elections start.

00:37:04.886 --> 00:37:08.346
It's not really like a presidential election year where like every news cycle

00:37:08.346 --> 00:37:10.806
is kind of driving opinion.

00:37:11.086 --> 00:37:16.626
And actually, I know one person, a researcher suggests that even it's the end of the last year, right,

00:37:16.786 --> 00:37:20.066
during the holiday season, when prices are high, when you're traveling home,

00:37:20.186 --> 00:37:25.206
when you're talking to families, that people do kind of sort of figure out who

00:37:25.206 --> 00:37:28.126
they support and who they don't support in terms of the direction of the country.

00:37:28.286 --> 00:37:30.126
So I'm not sure it'll cause too much change.

00:37:30.306 --> 00:37:33.446
I'm sure it'll provide a lot of fodder for, you know, the pundit class.

00:37:33.666 --> 00:37:38.226
But beyond that, I don't know that it's going to be, again, the sort of gift

00:37:38.226 --> 00:37:39.806
that Democrats are hoping for.

00:37:40.806 --> 00:37:44.106
Yeah, I got you. I got you. I, you know, I...

00:37:45.207 --> 00:37:49.827
I don't know. You know, it's like it's my sports experience has always been

00:37:49.827 --> 00:37:54.927
like, I want to know who I'm going up against. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

00:37:55.727 --> 00:38:00.547
And, you know, and have more time to study the film and realize,

00:38:00.827 --> 00:38:03.207
you know, what their tendencies are and all that.

00:38:03.667 --> 00:38:06.987
And the runoff kind of delays that a little bit.

00:38:07.207 --> 00:38:11.687
But, you know, from a fundraising vantage point, you know, to get the money

00:38:11.687 --> 00:38:14.387
that you need unencumbered, you know, I don't know.

00:38:14.927 --> 00:38:18.887
No, I think that's a brilliant point you just made, right, that I don't see a lot of people making.

00:38:18.987 --> 00:38:22.527
It cuts both ways because then whoever wins the primary doesn't know who they're

00:38:22.527 --> 00:38:25.407
running against, doesn't really have an opponent to focus on,

00:38:25.647 --> 00:38:27.607
probably has two people attacking them.

00:38:27.667 --> 00:38:30.127
So absolutely, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

00:38:30.767 --> 00:38:34.407
All right. So midterm elections.

00:38:35.521 --> 00:38:41.221
Let me ask, I asked somebody else this question. So is this is this going to

00:38:41.221 --> 00:38:48.881
be a blue wave, a blue tsunami, or is it going to be like business as usual?

00:38:49.041 --> 00:38:53.561
What do we what does it look like? But I think we could see some major wins

00:38:53.561 --> 00:38:57.161
for Democrats. I do think we could see that in the short term,

00:38:57.401 --> 00:38:59.001
right? We could win midterms by a lot.

00:38:59.141 --> 00:39:06.021
But I think the reality is, that is just like, step one in stopping what's happening in this country.

00:39:06.661 --> 00:39:13.201
What really matters is 2028, I will say. And I think that is our chance to really

00:39:13.201 --> 00:39:16.821
turn back the clock a little bit the way we saw Joe Biden do.

00:39:16.921 --> 00:39:20.921
But if we pick the right person, hopefully a lot, because I think one thing,

00:39:21.021 --> 00:39:24.901
you know, and I actually think Joe Biden was a great president, but he didn't.

00:39:24.901 --> 00:39:29.061
He did try to sort of be that norm restoring president. We need to pick somebody

00:39:29.061 --> 00:39:34.961
who understands the norms are gone and that we need to do what it takes to course correct,

00:39:35.281 --> 00:39:40.661
to stomp out this corruption, to get justice and all of that stuff.

00:39:40.661 --> 00:39:42.701
And so I do think that's important.

00:39:42.881 --> 00:39:46.621
What I'm not seeing from Democrats yet, you know, if we have a blue wave,

00:39:46.801 --> 00:39:50.461
it will not be because Democrats, you know, came up with the most brilliant messaging.

00:39:50.601 --> 00:39:55.241
It'll be because Trump is very unpopular and people really don't like the direction

00:39:55.241 --> 00:39:58.161
of the country right now, and specifically on economic issues.

00:39:58.381 --> 00:40:01.081
And so that's not enough to carry us for the next, you know,

00:40:01.481 --> 00:40:03.281
the next presidential election cycle.

00:40:03.441 --> 00:40:07.041
So I think people really need to think about that, too. But I'm optimistic that

00:40:07.041 --> 00:40:13.141
we have big wins in this November. So is the end result.

00:40:13.907 --> 00:40:17.127
The the house and the senate both flip

00:40:17.127 --> 00:40:20.387
or is it just i mean i think the senate would be amazing

00:40:20.387 --> 00:40:23.767
i'm not sure i see that clearly yet

00:40:23.767 --> 00:40:27.847
we'll have to i think have a little bit more information on how things are shaping

00:40:27.847 --> 00:40:33.487
up you know for example maine right there's a lot of polling all over the place

00:40:33.487 --> 00:40:38.007
some shows that guy graham plattner way ahead of susan collins some show him

00:40:38.007 --> 00:40:41.827
losing to susan collins whereas you have the current governor running as a candidate

00:40:41.827 --> 00:40:43.207
you know she's already won this state,

00:40:43.427 --> 00:40:46.687
but, you know, the polling hasn't necessarily been in her favor, Janet Mills.

00:40:46.907 --> 00:40:51.767
So we need a little more information. And I do think that one of the things

00:40:51.767 --> 00:40:55.007
people don't understand is when you elevate a Graham Plattner,

00:40:55.087 --> 00:40:56.727
when you elevate a James Tallarico,

00:40:56.987 --> 00:41:02.307
when you pick somebody who just went viral and suddenly won over a major amount

00:41:02.307 --> 00:41:05.647
of support, you really don't know anything about them.

00:41:05.647 --> 00:41:07.807
So it can blow up in your face.

00:41:08.067 --> 00:41:13.727
And by the way, right, I mean, a lot of these people haven't even faced the

00:41:13.727 --> 00:41:18.447
GOP opposition, you know, research and all of that stuff.

00:41:18.587 --> 00:41:22.027
So they haven't even really been properly campaigned against,

00:41:22.247 --> 00:41:24.847
as divisive as these Democratic primaries are.

00:41:25.347 --> 00:41:30.707
Imagine, right, when Republicans are running ads about all the Nazi stuff that

00:41:30.707 --> 00:41:33.867
this guy has engaged with or did know about or didn't know about, right?

00:41:33.927 --> 00:41:37.327
You could see immediately just a couple million dollars in ads.

00:41:37.427 --> 00:41:38.987
Maybe he drops 10 points. We don't know.

00:41:39.127 --> 00:41:42.127
So I think we have to kind of go in with that mindset

00:41:42.127 --> 00:41:45.387
and certainly nobody should take anything for granted yeah i

00:41:45.387 --> 00:41:48.327
i noticed you you and and and

00:41:48.327 --> 00:41:52.747
this this platinum fellow i don't think you've engaged him directly but you've

00:41:52.747 --> 00:41:57.167
you've had some major concerns about that and then you know because there's

00:41:57.167 --> 00:42:04.027
some races where i've seen some people on ms now ms now and and and other channels

00:42:04.027 --> 00:42:07.787
that are running but then it's like okay i see them on TV,

00:42:07.987 --> 00:42:12.667
but they're not polling, you know, they're like in third or fourth place in polling.

00:42:13.227 --> 00:42:16.427
And so, you know, I'm just trying to figure out how...

00:42:17.634 --> 00:42:21.834
All that is going to vet out. But I think you bring up a good point about the

00:42:21.834 --> 00:42:25.934
opposition research, because one of the things I learned early in politics,

00:42:25.934 --> 00:42:31.974
that the first thing you need to do in opposition research is hire somebody to study you.

00:42:32.274 --> 00:42:35.774
Yeah, exactly. And then you have a file on you. So that way,

00:42:35.914 --> 00:42:39.114
you know, what's going to be coming at you, you know, in the election,

00:42:39.254 --> 00:42:40.154
especially in the general.

00:42:40.454 --> 00:42:46.314
So, you know, this guy is unconventional and he seemed to be like the darling

00:42:46.314 --> 00:42:49.714
of the media when he first got out.

00:42:50.534 --> 00:42:55.234
But now it's like all this stuff is coming out and and then you're running.

00:42:55.554 --> 00:43:00.594
At that time, the governor wasn't running and she had her one viral moment when

00:43:00.594 --> 00:43:02.514
she told the president, I'll see you in court.

00:43:02.794 --> 00:43:05.614
And then the next couple of weeks, she was running for the U.S.

00:43:05.654 --> 00:43:09.754
Senate. So I think we're in this reality, though, kind of where.

00:43:12.114 --> 00:43:18.434
Being viral gives you the political availability to run for stuff.

00:43:18.614 --> 00:43:23.254
Do you, and you're of the generation is more influenced by that.

00:43:23.614 --> 00:43:27.734
I do. I agree with you. I actually, I've written about this for the bulwark

00:43:27.734 --> 00:43:32.394
a couple months ago when we had a few different influencers running for office,

00:43:32.534 --> 00:43:35.274
Isaiah Martin in Texas, you know.

00:43:36.414 --> 00:43:39.294
Millions of impressions raised, I think, you know,

00:43:39.294 --> 00:43:42.154
record amounts in that race got like three or four percent

00:43:42.154 --> 00:43:45.274
of the vote but when you have that national attention and

00:43:45.274 --> 00:43:48.494
media support it seems like you're winning and then

00:43:48.494 --> 00:43:51.754
same right deja fox ran in arizona she

00:43:51.754 --> 00:43:58.294
lost by 40 points and yet she was getting those like ny mag cover spreads and

00:43:58.294 --> 00:44:02.994
all that glossy magazine coverage making again millions of impressions on tiktok

00:44:02.994 --> 00:44:06.254
that would make you think she was a real contender and even here in new york

00:44:06.254 --> 00:44:09.074
right we have jack Schlossberg, the grandson of JFK,

00:44:09.254 --> 00:44:13.614
who is frankly running, I think, an embarrassingly bad campaign and getting

00:44:13.614 --> 00:44:15.914
a bit roasted for it. But you have people, right?

00:44:16.154 --> 00:44:19.354
Like he's an influencer. You have people like Pelosi endorsing him.

00:44:19.454 --> 00:44:22.574
You just had his parents come out and endorse him. I think it's like ridiculous.

00:44:22.854 --> 00:44:25.334
Like people are making fun of his campaign. He doesn't have a campaign manager.

00:44:25.514 --> 00:44:29.894
They were asking, is he applying to go to NYU or to be in Congress?

00:44:29.934 --> 00:44:34.194
Because you go to the website, it's like, I promise to be creative and optimistic.

00:44:34.414 --> 00:44:38.074
And it's like, okay, nobody cares. Like, It's very strange.

00:44:38.214 --> 00:44:43.114
And I think, again, what it reveals is a desperation that Democrats have.

00:44:43.214 --> 00:44:44.614
They feel they lost online.

00:44:44.794 --> 00:44:49.294
They feel that the right-wing media ecosystem and the figures in the right-wing

00:44:49.294 --> 00:44:52.214
are more compelling, more interesting, you know, whatever it is.

00:44:52.534 --> 00:44:57.554
And so they want to hand over the keys to these random 20-year-olds that go

00:44:57.554 --> 00:45:00.334
viral and say, okay, well, hopefully this can get us the attention.

00:45:00.474 --> 00:45:01.954
Hopefully they can get our message out there.

00:45:02.672 --> 00:45:07.792
So wrong-headed because the reality is, yes, do we need everyone to be an 80-year-old,

00:45:07.852 --> 00:45:10.792
you know, tweeting out lame Taylor Swift lyrics? No.

00:45:11.372 --> 00:45:14.892
But there are people, right? It's funny. I was talking to my friend Shannon

00:45:14.892 --> 00:45:18.892
Watts, who started a major movement, gun violence movement called Moms Demand

00:45:18.892 --> 00:45:19.892
Action, you may have heard of.

00:45:20.132 --> 00:45:23.032
And she's, I think, in her early 50s, right?

00:45:23.132 --> 00:45:26.112
I was like, you, I would love to see somebody like Shannon Watts,

00:45:26.192 --> 00:45:30.392
right, run for office, who has built a national movement, who's written books,

00:45:30.452 --> 00:45:34.872
who's been a leader, who understands, right? She has hundreds of thousands of

00:45:34.872 --> 00:45:35.672
social media followers.

00:45:35.832 --> 00:45:40.012
She's not a quote unquote influencer. She's done something that has earned her

00:45:40.012 --> 00:45:42.452
influence. And I think that is the key.

00:45:42.912 --> 00:45:46.732
Doing something that earns you influence is very different than being an influencer

00:45:46.732 --> 00:45:51.032
and thinking that earns you the right to a political position or something.

00:45:51.152 --> 00:45:53.892
And I think that's where people are really missing the mark.

00:45:53.892 --> 00:46:01.072
Yeah well you know she lucy mcbath was her main lieutenant and absolutely and the same.

00:46:03.292 --> 00:46:05.972
Jasmine crockett and james tallarico those are

00:46:05.972 --> 00:46:10.512
two examples right they are they have been elected before they have some experience

00:46:10.512 --> 00:46:14.972
and they are absolutely digital first candidates they understand how to go viral

00:46:14.972 --> 00:46:18.552
they each have millions of followers right so like why do we need to go find

00:46:18.552 --> 00:46:23.072
you know a 20 year old with no experience when we have a 40 year old former

00:46:23.072 --> 00:46:24.272
criminal defensive attorney,

00:46:24.772 --> 00:46:26.292
former congresswoman, right?

00:46:26.452 --> 00:46:29.192
Who's who has that background, we just don't need to do it anymore.

00:46:29.412 --> 00:46:35.312
So I think there's been this like, almost just misalignment of timing where,

00:46:35.572 --> 00:46:40.712
yes, a couple years ago, we were really missing that mark and relying too heavily

00:46:40.712 --> 00:46:42.472
on creators and influencers.

00:46:42.832 --> 00:46:49.512
But actually, in the ideal scenario, we don't need that middleman to translate

00:46:49.512 --> 00:46:54.672
things digitally, we just have people that are good communicators online and also have real resumes.

00:46:55.372 --> 00:47:00.432
And I was going to say Maxwell Frost, he was lieutenant basically for David Hogg.

00:47:00.532 --> 00:47:04.592
And, you know, he got elected to Congress and he didn't really go viral or anything.

00:47:04.732 --> 00:47:08.552
He just ran a good campaign and won that district, you know.

00:47:08.732 --> 00:47:13.992
So, yeah, I feel you. So let's get into the messaging thing as we get ready to close this out.

00:47:14.332 --> 00:47:21.932
Because we, excuse me, we've dabbled into the conversation a little bit as we were going into it.

00:47:21.932 --> 00:47:29.632
But what what do you think the Democrats need to do messaging wise to ensure

00:47:29.632 --> 00:47:32.292
that they get those majorities?

00:47:33.244 --> 00:47:36.924
Well, I do think it was great that they picked Abigail Spanberger to do the

00:47:36.924 --> 00:47:40.044
response to the State of the Union. I think she's a strong communicator.

00:47:40.264 --> 00:47:45.584
I think she's not somebody that comes across extreme and she doesn't need to

00:47:45.584 --> 00:47:49.664
kind of rely on stunts to capture your attention and make sense.

00:47:49.844 --> 00:47:53.284
And she's very good on her feet on the campaign trail. There were so many moments

00:47:53.284 --> 00:47:57.404
where she was either being heckled or, you know, she was engaging with a MAGA

00:47:57.404 --> 00:47:59.784
supporter and she just handles it so well.

00:48:00.364 --> 00:48:04.984
But I so I think, you know, continuing to hyper focus on affordability like she was.

00:48:05.444 --> 00:48:10.744
And then, you know, for midterms, I do think the focus on Trump and everything going wrong is fine.

00:48:10.764 --> 00:48:15.064
I think, again, for that bigger picture, we need a positive agenda, a positive vision.

00:48:15.224 --> 00:48:17.644
And, you know, I'll give you AI as an example.

00:48:18.584 --> 00:48:21.604
All finally, Democrats are rolling out some AI ideas.

00:48:21.764 --> 00:48:26.364
And all of them almost are about how we slow down, regulate,

00:48:26.764 --> 00:48:29.484
and make sure things are being done right.

00:48:29.504 --> 00:48:32.384
I believe in that. I absolutely believe we cannot trust these companies.

00:48:32.524 --> 00:48:34.624
We do need to regulate them. We can't trust them.

00:48:35.264 --> 00:48:39.424
But that does not inspire anyone. That does not excite anyone.

00:48:39.604 --> 00:48:43.624
That doesn't get young men, for example, that want to be part of the future,

00:48:43.864 --> 00:48:46.304
want to have their shot, want to make a ton of money, whatever it is.

00:48:46.724 --> 00:48:51.444
That doesn't interest them. You need to also explain to people how they're going

00:48:51.444 --> 00:48:56.124
to benefit and be part of the AI revolution, right? I mean, it's coming.

00:48:56.224 --> 00:48:57.444
We're not going to stop it at this point.

00:48:57.604 --> 00:49:02.504
So how can we make sure that all Americans benefit from that system,

00:49:02.644 --> 00:49:04.384
right? We've already been through this several times.

00:49:04.464 --> 00:49:10.024
There's been so many sort of, you know, explosions in the last two centuries

00:49:10.024 --> 00:49:12.484
of innovation, right? Just most recently, right?

00:49:13.287 --> 00:49:18.727
The internet, period, right? So we know how sort of inequity can come out of that.

00:49:18.767 --> 00:49:22.467
And we also know what we could have done to stop it and to make sure that workers

00:49:22.467 --> 00:49:26.647
and folks were more built in to be part of this system and benefit from it.

00:49:26.827 --> 00:49:28.687
So what are those policies?

00:49:28.927 --> 00:49:31.627
And like some, you know, have thrown out things like an AI dividend,

00:49:31.647 --> 00:49:35.387
like maybe it's just like, we take some of the glut from these huge companies

00:49:35.387 --> 00:49:39.247
that are really, you know, hurting our climate and doing all these things. And.

00:49:40.329 --> 00:49:44.729
A starting point, make sure they pay their fair share. But beyond pay their

00:49:44.729 --> 00:49:48.569
fair share, maybe, yeah, maybe there is a certain percentage going to the local

00:49:48.569 --> 00:49:54.129
community to invest or whatever it is, figure it out. But what are those exciting ideas?

00:49:54.609 --> 00:49:58.909
I haven't seen them. So I think we need to come up with actual policies like that.

00:49:59.029 --> 00:50:04.909
And they don't need to be so specific and that they bore people,

00:50:05.029 --> 00:50:06.709
frankly, and they get picked apart by the wonks.

00:50:06.829 --> 00:50:09.069
It just needs to be a vision, a direction.

00:50:09.609 --> 00:50:14.049
And I think that is still missing. I think part of that is because a lot of

00:50:14.049 --> 00:50:17.989
the people that are immersed in that space don't have the charisma that they

00:50:17.989 --> 00:50:19.189
need to compete politically.

00:50:19.709 --> 00:50:23.289
Like, there's a candidate in New York called Alex Boras. He's been talking about

00:50:23.289 --> 00:50:24.989
AI, but he's very monotone.

00:50:25.129 --> 00:50:27.989
Like, he was an engineer at Palantir and that's how he comes across.

00:50:28.169 --> 00:50:33.149
Like, he's not going to inspire people, I think, to take on, you know, AI in that way.

00:50:33.329 --> 00:50:37.049
Same with, you know, Ro Khanna. I'm a big fan of Ro Khanna, but on this issue,

00:50:37.589 --> 00:50:40.549
again, is he going to be the one to like

00:50:40.549 --> 00:50:44.089
excite so many people and sell it maybe you

00:50:44.089 --> 00:50:46.929
know but i think we you need somebody that kind of has both right

00:50:46.929 --> 00:50:53.229
the policy chops and the ability to be an entertainer yeah see i'm i'm i'm big

00:50:53.229 --> 00:50:58.529
into storytelling right and i think that you know when you when you when you

00:50:58.529 --> 00:51:03.429
can get somebody they don't have to have like this over-the-top charisma but

00:51:03.429 --> 00:51:05.649
if you can relate If you can tell a story,

00:51:05.809 --> 00:51:13.209
if you can say something that will bring people in to pay attention to you and

00:51:13.209 --> 00:51:19.049
to feel what you're trying to convey, I think that that that wins.

00:51:19.289 --> 00:51:21.969
And I've and I've made this case over and over again.

00:51:22.269 --> 00:51:29.269
People don't tell stories. They just spout facts and say against or say what they for.

00:51:29.289 --> 00:51:35.309
And like you said, they get into the wonky stuff. but just tell a story that people can relate to.

00:51:35.509 --> 00:51:38.409
Donald Trump is not a great storyteller, but.

00:51:39.150 --> 00:51:44.010
He knows how to market. And so he's been able to tap into stuff.

00:51:44.230 --> 00:51:48.230
But to counter somebody like him, like a P.T. Barnum kind of candidate that

00:51:48.230 --> 00:51:51.430
he is, you have to have somebody that's folksy.

00:51:51.590 --> 00:51:56.110
I just I won't get into it, but I just remember there was a lieutenant governor

00:51:56.110 --> 00:52:01.010
race in Mississippi. He had this guy who was an Air Force jet pilot and he was

00:52:01.010 --> 00:52:03.570
a Harvard educated lawyer.

00:52:04.130 --> 00:52:08.490
I worked with him in the legislature. Smart guy. You know, this is a Republican

00:52:08.490 --> 00:52:10.850
primary. But a smart guy, all this stuff.

00:52:11.070 --> 00:52:16.490
And then he ran against this guy who was like, you know, this folksy whatever.

00:52:16.870 --> 00:52:22.150
You know what I'm saying? He was just like, now y'all know that this is not

00:52:22.150 --> 00:52:23.790
the way government should work.

00:52:23.870 --> 00:52:28.310
And he beat the brakes off of this intelligent man. You know what I'm saying?

00:52:28.770 --> 00:52:33.650
Yeah. And it was just like, because he was able to tell a story, you know?

00:52:33.650 --> 00:52:41.390
And I mean, my friend, he literally had a chalkboard and he was trying to spell

00:52:41.390 --> 00:52:44.310
out stuff on the chalkboard and people like, what?

00:52:44.710 --> 00:52:48.670
You know what I'm saying? So it's like, that to me is the key.

00:52:48.930 --> 00:52:52.210
It's like all those points you mentioned, but you got to be able to tell the

00:52:52.210 --> 00:52:55.830
story. That's just me. All right. Last question.

00:52:56.390 --> 00:52:59.650
Finish this sentence. I have hope because...

00:53:01.125 --> 00:53:08.085
I have hope because I do think that we are now seeing that generation of the

00:53:08.085 --> 00:53:13.605
deep bench that for decades Democrats have been talking about come to fruition.

00:53:13.965 --> 00:53:17.685
And, you know, as much as that Texas primary has been divisive,

00:53:17.845 --> 00:53:20.925
I think it highlights the range of candidates that we do have, right?

00:53:21.065 --> 00:53:26.065
These quality, digital, good communicator candidates. And we're seeing that

00:53:26.065 --> 00:53:29.525
with interesting folks across the country. And I do think that,

00:53:29.625 --> 00:53:35.925
you know, headed into 2028, we actually have some really interesting, strong people.

00:53:36.145 --> 00:53:39.825
And I'll caveat it, I'm hopeful that we can have, you know.

00:53:40.565 --> 00:53:45.805
An actually interesting primary for 2028 with an exchange of ideas that touches

00:53:45.805 --> 00:53:50.225
on some of the things that we talked about, and not sort of have the,

00:53:50.565 --> 00:53:55.505
what we had in 2020, which was really just like, you know, all these kind of

00:53:55.505 --> 00:54:00.485
random people running for attention, not punching through 20 plus folks,

00:54:00.505 --> 00:54:03.065
I don't think we'll necessarily see that repeat.

00:54:03.225 --> 00:54:07.065
And so I'm excited to see people come with their energy and incitement.

00:54:07.685 --> 00:54:12.705
Well, Kaivan Shroff. I have hope because of people like you.

00:54:12.905 --> 00:54:19.725
I think it's good that, you know, to see younger people be engaged and be articulate

00:54:19.725 --> 00:54:25.545
and willing to go out there and not only be a cheerleader,

00:54:25.705 --> 00:54:29.905
but to be critical and to make us think about what we need to be doing,

00:54:30.125 --> 00:54:32.205
what we should be doing. It's very grateful to you.

00:54:32.465 --> 00:54:36.405
If people want to reach out to you, how can they do that?

00:54:36.945 --> 00:54:41.365
Yes, so I'm Kaivon Shroff on all social media platforms, just spelt like my

00:54:41.365 --> 00:54:43.545
name, and would love to see you there.

00:54:44.145 --> 00:54:47.205
All right, sir. Well, again, thank you for coming on.

00:54:47.445 --> 00:54:52.465
I greatly appreciate your opinions on things, and I look forward to seeing your

00:54:52.465 --> 00:54:57.805
battles on X and all these other platforms.

00:54:58.405 --> 00:55:02.365
Thank you so much, man. Have a good one. All right, guys. We're going to catch y'all on the other side.

00:55:21.683 --> 00:55:26.623
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest.

00:55:27.343 --> 00:55:32.923
And that is Louise Story and Ebony Reed.

00:55:33.323 --> 00:55:36.663
I'm going to take a little time before I go into their bios to pat myself on

00:55:36.663 --> 00:55:42.243
the back because this was an interview I've been pursuing for almost two years.

00:55:42.523 --> 00:55:48.283
I had the privilege of meeting these women at a seminar they held in Atlanta.

00:55:49.363 --> 00:55:54.963
And a lot of the book that we're going to talk about in the interview was based

00:55:54.963 --> 00:56:00.443
on interviews they did in Atlanta. So it was really, really cool to watch their

00:56:00.443 --> 00:56:04.023
presentation and to get a copy of the book and be able to read it.

00:56:04.423 --> 00:56:08.383
And I am really, really happy that they came on the podcast.

00:56:08.783 --> 00:56:14.483
Now, Louise Story is a prize-winning investigative journalist who spent more

00:56:14.483 --> 00:56:18.223
than 15 years at the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal,

00:56:18.543 --> 00:56:22.303
where she was the top masthead editor running coverage strategy.

00:56:22.563 --> 00:56:28.883
Her work investigating corruption led to the largest kleptocracy forfeiture in U.S.

00:56:29.103 --> 00:56:33.243
History, a scandal known as the 1MDB case.

00:56:33.383 --> 00:56:39.743
Her work during the 2008 financial crisis led to a multi-billion dollar settlement

00:56:39.743 --> 00:56:45.423
in the derivative market and to Goldman Sachs SEC settlement.

00:56:46.003 --> 00:56:50.743
Projects she led have received honors, including Emmy Awards,

00:56:51.463 --> 00:56:56.543
Pulitzer Prize finalist citations, and Online News Association Awards.

00:56:57.243 --> 00:57:02.403
Louisa's film, The Kleptocrats, aired on the BBC, Apple, and Amazon.

00:57:02.763 --> 00:57:07.423
She teaches about racial wealth gaps at the Yale School of Management.

00:57:08.318 --> 00:57:14.678
Ebony Reed is a seasoned journalism leader who has led coverage and operations

00:57:14.678 --> 00:57:16.518
with a focus on Community News.

00:57:16.798 --> 00:57:21.578
She began her career as a reporter at The Plain Dealer, covering Cleveland Public

00:57:21.578 --> 00:57:27.398
Schools, documenting public education's inequities, and with her work being

00:57:27.398 --> 00:57:31.478
recognized by the investigative reporters and editors organization.

00:57:31.958 --> 00:57:37.538
At The Detroit News, she managed the local coverage during the 2008 economic crisis.

00:57:37.538 --> 00:57:43.538
Now the Chief Strategy Officer at the Marshall Project, she has held other senior

00:57:43.538 --> 00:57:48.618
roles at the Associated Press, Boston Business Journal, and the Wall Street Journal.

00:57:48.978 --> 00:57:54.298
She's taught at a half-dozen institutions, including co-teaching with Louise

00:57:54.298 --> 00:57:56.478
at the Yale School of Management.

00:57:56.878 --> 00:58:01.718
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as guests

00:58:01.718 --> 00:58:06.318
on this podcast, Louise Story and Ebony Reed.

00:58:17.107 --> 00:58:23.247
All right. Louise Story and Ebony Reed. How y'all ladies doing? Y'all doing good?

00:58:24.007 --> 00:58:28.947
We're doing great. Yep. Doing well. Well, I am so glad. I have been trying to

00:58:28.947 --> 00:58:35.187
get you on my show for the longest, and I'm finally glad we had a window where we could all do it.

00:58:35.347 --> 00:58:38.687
I'm trying to follow what y'all told me in the book.

00:58:39.147 --> 00:58:44.747
I think when y'all autographed my copy, it says, For Eric, spread this data.

00:58:47.967 --> 00:58:54.487
So hopefully being on a podcast will be my contribution to spreading that.

00:58:54.667 --> 00:58:57.147
But seriously, thank you all for taking the time to do this.

00:58:57.267 --> 00:59:00.807
I know you all have been in demand and very busy, so I appreciate that.

00:59:01.607 --> 00:59:06.567
Thank you. All right, guys. Thank you. So normally how I do this is that I start

00:59:06.567 --> 00:59:10.587
off with a couple of icebreakers before we get into the meat of the interview.

00:59:11.367 --> 00:59:15.227
So my first icebreaker is I want you to respond to a quote.

00:59:16.067 --> 00:59:21.547
Politics is really about who divides the money And whether or not you get your

00:59:21.547 --> 00:59:25.707
share What does that quote mean to you? That's a famous quote.

00:59:26.998 --> 00:59:29.558
Is that Andrew Young? That is Andrew Young. That is correct.

00:59:29.878 --> 00:59:31.438
Yeah. There you go. I got the trivia.

00:59:32.578 --> 00:59:38.058
That's great, Louise. Andrew Young, as you know, he and his family are a main

00:59:38.058 --> 00:59:39.618
through line in our book.

00:59:39.758 --> 00:59:43.258
We shadow seven families in the book. It really helps you follow a narrative

00:59:43.258 --> 00:59:47.758
while you're reading this kind of whole re-look at American history through

00:59:47.758 --> 00:59:49.338
the lens of the black-white wealth gap.

00:59:50.058 --> 00:59:57.218
And it is true that at the end of the day, laws, rules, customs,

00:59:57.558 --> 01:00:04.318
practices determine whether people get a cut of the pie and what size that they get.

01:00:04.678 --> 01:00:08.958
And historically in this country, and still to this day, a lot of those practices

01:00:08.958 --> 01:00:13.958
and laws and rulings have been set, you know, more predominantly by white people.

01:00:13.958 --> 01:00:19.618
And, you know, with, you know, a narrow and maybe even sometimes bigoted perspective

01:00:19.618 --> 01:00:22.078
on it, and it hasn't divided things up fairly.

01:00:22.298 --> 01:00:25.438
So I think it's a very wise quote. I'll turn to Ebony for her take on it.

01:00:26.218 --> 01:00:29.438
Yeah, I mean, to me, it speaks really directly right to the black,

01:00:29.618 --> 01:00:38.018
white, well, okay, you know, getting your figure to share and what that means

01:00:38.018 --> 01:00:40.418
and what it means to face that.

01:00:40.578 --> 01:00:44.618
Think about generational, what pass along, you know, anything to other people

01:00:44.618 --> 01:00:46.498
and their family. That's what it means to me.

01:00:47.438 --> 01:00:53.678
Yeah. All right. So now my next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.

01:00:54.538 --> 01:01:00.118
So I need y'all to collaborate and give me a number between 1 and 20. 13.

01:01:01.198 --> 01:01:04.218
We can average it, Ebony. What do you want to go for? Okay. I was going to go

01:01:04.218 --> 01:01:07.738
for 10, but that's good. 13 is good. No, no, no. So we'll go for 11.

01:01:07.918 --> 01:01:10.778
That's kind of, it would be 11 and a half, but we'll round out to 11. 11.

01:01:12.243 --> 01:01:19.383
All right. Number 11, it is, where do you go to check a fact that you see, hear, or read?

01:01:20.403 --> 01:01:24.783
The original source of that fact, if possible. So, you know,

01:01:24.903 --> 01:01:28.143
if it's a data point, go to the full data set.

01:01:28.323 --> 01:01:33.103
A lot of data points are actually calculations. So go to the numbers that,

01:01:33.243 --> 01:01:33.983
you know, they originate.

01:01:34.143 --> 01:01:39.203
The title of our book, 15 cents on the dollar, which is what the typical black

01:01:39.203 --> 01:01:43.143
family has in wealth compared to $1 in wealth held by the typical white family,

01:01:43.383 --> 01:01:45.003
you know, it's a calculation, right?

01:01:45.143 --> 01:01:48.363
It's dividing those relative wealth numbers together.

01:01:48.523 --> 01:01:50.783
So to check that fact, I'd go back to the source of the data,

01:01:50.923 --> 01:01:53.403
which is the government, and look at the numerator and the denominator,

01:01:53.403 --> 01:01:55.303
look at them over time, and check it out.

01:01:56.903 --> 01:02:01.903
I also think about other primary documents and historical documents and going back to those.

01:02:02.343 --> 01:02:05.683
And in the reporting of this book, Louise, you know, and I both,

01:02:05.803 --> 01:02:09.563
we looked at primary documents. We looked at historical documents.

01:02:09.563 --> 01:02:14.723
We looked at family trees and ancestry. We went back to original speeches that

01:02:14.723 --> 01:02:16.383
Dr. King and other leaders had given.

01:02:16.563 --> 01:02:20.803
And so I think about that when I'm tracing back to double check a fact.

01:02:22.423 --> 01:02:28.083
Okay. All right, guys. So what compelled y'all to write this book and why did

01:02:28.083 --> 01:02:30.343
you focus on Atlanta for your research?

01:02:31.423 --> 01:02:34.743
Well, I can start with the first part. I'll talk about what compelled us to,

01:02:34.743 --> 01:02:37.303
you know, write this book and report it together.

01:02:37.883 --> 01:02:42.063
Louise and I, we are both longtime journalists. Louise, early in her career,

01:02:42.183 --> 01:02:45.403
spent a significant amount of time, you know, at the New York Times.

01:02:45.423 --> 01:02:49.743
She covered the 2009 financial crisis on Wall Street.

01:02:49.963 --> 01:02:52.103
At that time, I was an editor at the.

01:02:54.734 --> 01:02:58.834
Time, it felt like it didn't matter what the story was. There was an intersection

01:02:58.834 --> 01:03:04.754
with wealth and the foreclosure crisis that was impacting so many families at that time.

01:03:05.154 --> 01:03:10.634
And I had always wondered, you know, what happened to the wealth of Black families at that time?

01:03:10.894 --> 01:03:15.914
And so then we fast forward, you know, 10, 11 years later, it's the summer of 2020.

01:03:16.474 --> 01:03:19.114
Louise and I are working together at the Wall Street Journal.

01:03:19.334 --> 01:03:21.294
She had recruited me to join her team.

01:03:21.554 --> 01:03:26.454
And, you know, back to that first pandemic summer of 2020, we couldn't go anywhere.

01:03:26.454 --> 01:03:32.234
So we were in our homes, and we were having conversations at night and on the weekend on Zoom.

01:03:32.694 --> 01:03:36.854
And we started talking about books we'd read, others that we wanted to read.

01:03:37.074 --> 01:03:41.774
And we realized that there was no book that had the complete history of the

01:03:41.774 --> 01:03:46.174
black-white wealth gap from the beginning of time to the current day.

01:03:46.354 --> 01:03:50.114
And, you know, there are many excellent books out there that speak to that 2009

01:03:50.114 --> 01:03:53.454
financial crisis and redlining or the history of slavery.

01:03:54.374 --> 01:03:58.614
But we felt that with our backgrounds, we were the perfect journalists to come

01:03:58.614 --> 01:04:03.534
together and tackle this topic and not just with the data, but also with the

01:04:03.534 --> 01:04:06.374
rich reporting of looking at the lives of people.

01:04:06.954 --> 01:04:11.774
And with that, I'll take a breath and I'll pass to Louise about like why we focused on Atlanta.

01:04:12.434 --> 01:04:17.114
So Atlanta has been called the Black Mecca, right? It's been called the place

01:04:17.114 --> 01:04:19.654
that Black Americans, you know, could break through.

01:04:19.854 --> 01:04:23.734
There've been Black mayors and many leaders in society there.

01:04:23.894 --> 01:04:29.814
But in fact, when you look at the data, the economic well-being and kind of

01:04:29.814 --> 01:04:34.054
equality coming to Black families there hasn't really happened fully.

01:04:34.214 --> 01:04:37.294
And so we thought it was an interesting place. It's got the history,

01:04:37.514 --> 01:04:43.094
it's got interesting people, but it also speaks to the failed promise to bring

01:04:43.094 --> 01:04:47.914
more equality financially in our country over the past many decades.

01:04:49.034 --> 01:04:54.534
Yeah, that was a very stark reality I came into when I moved here to Atlanta that,

01:04:55.401 --> 01:04:59.521
You know, Atlanta is one of the 10 richest cities in the United States,

01:04:59.521 --> 01:05:03.761
but it has the biggest wealth gap of any city in the United States.

01:05:03.921 --> 01:05:09.121
And that blew my mind, especially like you said, Louise, it's considered the black mecca.

01:05:09.281 --> 01:05:14.321
It's like, surely the black mecca doesn't have this wealth gap, but in reality it does.

01:05:15.461 --> 01:05:20.661
And y'all explain that a lot in the book. Heather McGee said,

01:05:21.001 --> 01:05:23.821
wealth is where history shows up in your wallet.

01:05:24.501 --> 01:05:26.981
Y'all give y'all definition of what wealth is.

01:05:28.321 --> 01:05:32.581
Well, you know, Louise and I have traveled around and spoken in many different

01:05:32.581 --> 01:05:36.981
communities, virtually and in person, helping people understand the difference

01:05:36.981 --> 01:05:41.381
between wealth and income and about the black-white wealth gap.

01:05:41.541 --> 01:05:46.941
And so wealth is everything that you own minus what you owe.

01:05:47.701 --> 01:05:53.301
And it is also defined as, you know, your net worth by the Federal Reserve Bank

01:05:53.301 --> 01:05:57.681
and other financial institutions, but it's everything that you own minus what you owe.

01:05:58.741 --> 01:06:02.261
We've asked our students, we taught at the Yale School of Management for several

01:06:02.261 --> 01:06:04.241
years about racial wealth gaps.

01:06:04.381 --> 01:06:08.881
And we asked the students, MBA students, what is wealth at the beginning of every class?

01:06:09.081 --> 01:06:11.761
And it's interesting, you know, people have all different ideas of it.

01:06:11.861 --> 01:06:15.701
There's the technical definition that Ebony gave, you know, it's your assets, my liabilities.

01:06:16.041 --> 01:06:20.101
But people also think about wealth in, you know, a philosophical way.

01:06:20.261 --> 01:06:22.561
They think about wealth as opportunities.

01:06:22.901 --> 01:06:27.001
You know, it's the having the resources, the safety net around you to go out

01:06:27.001 --> 01:06:29.701
and become an entrepreneur. like having the startup capital,

01:06:29.901 --> 01:06:32.841
the wealth you have, not just in money, but for example, in your network,

01:06:33.061 --> 01:06:35.961
knowing people who make resources, you and so on.

01:06:36.121 --> 01:06:43.321
So in an even bigger picture way, wealth is truly where, you know,

01:06:43.401 --> 01:06:47.461
equality and opportunity plays out for so many people.

01:06:47.601 --> 01:06:50.881
And that's why Ebony and I, you know, we're just so tied to this.

01:06:51.141 --> 01:06:54.541
You know, a lot of Sometimes you talk about civil rights in the very important

01:06:54.541 --> 01:07:01.101
areas of justice and in laws and in legal things. And those matter and those contribute.

01:07:01.481 --> 01:07:06.881
But money and what the opportunities you have tied to money also affects a lot

01:07:06.881 --> 01:07:09.181
about the lives and the equality that we can have.

01:07:09.901 --> 01:07:14.461
Yeah. And that was that was the one cool thing about. Well, one of several cool

01:07:14.461 --> 01:07:18.241
things about your book is that not only did y'all give a definition,

01:07:18.241 --> 01:07:20.901
but you also dealt with people's perceptions.

01:07:20.901 --> 01:07:25.121
Because a lot of times, it seems like for the last couple of episodes,

01:07:25.121 --> 01:07:29.421
I've had somebody on talking about wealth, Black wealth specifically,

01:07:29.561 --> 01:07:32.401
and we didn't get into the definition.

01:07:32.461 --> 01:07:36.961
It's almost like it's supposed to be kind of understood. But I was really glad

01:07:36.961 --> 01:07:41.181
that y'all highlighted the fact that people perceive wealth different ways.

01:07:42.357 --> 01:07:45.597
Why is the black dollar a mere marketing term?

01:07:46.857 --> 01:07:52.157
Yeah. Well, we have an entire, you know, chapter on, you know, the black dollar.

01:07:52.497 --> 01:07:56.677
And it has certainly been something that marketers have targeted,

01:07:57.017 --> 01:08:02.117
right, in trying to get black Americans to buy, you know, goods and services.

01:08:02.357 --> 01:08:08.897
But I think, you know, really core to that question is, does money stay in the black community?

01:08:09.457 --> 01:08:15.277
And if it does for how long and where does that stat come from or information about that stat.

01:08:15.397 --> 01:08:19.117
And so we really tried to track that down, you know, in our reporting,

01:08:19.297 --> 01:08:23.397
going to primary sources, you know, about, you know, this issue.

01:08:23.557 --> 01:08:27.657
And, you know, the bottom line, you know, Eric, is that we have a global economy

01:08:27.657 --> 01:08:34.217
now and it's very hard for a dollar to stay in, you know, one community and

01:08:34.217 --> 01:08:36.557
not, you know, leave that community.

01:08:36.557 --> 01:08:43.657
And so it is a marketing term and sort of, you know, a myth in today's society

01:08:43.657 --> 01:08:47.197
that a dollar can just simply stay in a community.

01:08:48.199 --> 01:08:55.719
I'll just add to that, Eric, the black dollar, you mean like the black 15 cents, right?

01:08:55.959 --> 01:09:01.759
So the whole premise of calling it the black dollar, right, where the dollar

01:09:01.759 --> 01:09:07.539
is the 100% is like obliviating the problem here, right?

01:09:07.679 --> 01:09:12.859
And all of the language you'll see about going after the buying power of black

01:09:12.859 --> 01:09:14.619
Americans, what power are you talking about?

01:09:14.879 --> 01:09:22.119
15 cents. And so I actually think that businesses that have framed it this way,

01:09:22.459 --> 01:09:26.239
you know, we have a very business-oriented society.

01:09:26.419 --> 01:09:30.019
People use financial terms. We have someone who was kind of a businessman,

01:09:30.019 --> 01:09:33.319
I guess you could call Donald Trump, as our president, right?

01:09:33.519 --> 01:09:38.139
And when you talk in business terms, and it's all about how much money can this business make,

01:09:38.139 --> 01:09:43.039
They're basically talking about unequal groups of people where people do not

01:09:43.039 --> 01:09:47.099
have the same level of spending power as if they have this power by saying the

01:09:47.099 --> 01:09:49.719
black dollar is the black 15 cents on the white dollar.

01:09:49.879 --> 01:09:56.079
So the whole term is just misconstrued in terms of what's really going on in our society.

01:09:56.979 --> 01:10:01.939
Yeah. And, you know, that's something that a lot of us, especially,

01:10:02.199 --> 01:10:08.259
you know, people like me that have been in elected office when we were trying to,

01:10:08.739 --> 01:10:12.439
I guess, you know, get people to galvanize and all that.

01:10:12.599 --> 01:10:18.179
We would say, well, you know, our gross domestic product is, you know, rivals.

01:10:18.939 --> 01:10:23.519
It would be like one of the top 10 nations in the world and and all that kind

01:10:23.519 --> 01:10:33.219
of stuff. But again, that's money, as Ebony said, that we get and then give it right back.

01:10:33.559 --> 01:10:38.179
And it's not accumulating in our communities and so forth.

01:10:38.359 --> 01:10:42.959
So I'm glad, Louise, you made it plain. It's not a dollar even, it's 15 cents.

01:10:46.174 --> 01:10:52.174
All right. If bankruptcy is an example of mercy in the American capitalist system,

01:10:52.414 --> 01:10:55.754
why does it equal turmoil for Black Americans?

01:10:56.734 --> 01:11:01.774
Well, because, you know, Black Americans don't even get the same mercy as white Americans.

01:11:02.294 --> 01:11:05.654
So bankruptcy, let's be clear, is turmoil for all people.

01:11:05.894 --> 01:11:09.414
For a Hispanic family in bankruptcy, it's turmoil. For a white family,

01:11:09.634 --> 01:11:10.954
it's turmoil. Bankruptcy is turmoil.

01:11:11.754 --> 01:11:16.934
The problem with our system today is that statistically speaking,

01:11:17.414 --> 01:11:22.014
white Americans are more likely to get the mercy during this turmoil than black Americans.

01:11:22.154 --> 01:11:25.894
And so we wrote at length and explained in the book how the system is set up

01:11:25.894 --> 01:11:30.714
through the different types of bankruptcy people file and in other ways so that they don't.

01:11:30.814 --> 01:11:33.694
And one of them has to do with, for example, which type of bankruptcy you file.

01:11:33.914 --> 01:11:38.754
And some filings require more cash up front to pay lawyers, for example.

01:11:39.094 --> 01:11:43.974
And so there again, you might think two people filing for bankruptcy are equal.

01:11:44.114 --> 01:11:44.874
They're both going bankrupt.

01:11:45.214 --> 01:11:49.754
But different people have different strings they can pull on their family for

01:11:49.754 --> 01:11:52.254
support and front the cash and make different decisions.

01:11:52.554 --> 01:11:56.274
And so the problem with bankruptcy is a problem for anyone experiencing it,

01:11:56.354 --> 01:11:58.254
but the mercy is not given out equally.

01:11:59.417 --> 01:12:03.477
Ebony, did you want to add something to that or is that good? No, I'm good.

01:12:03.577 --> 01:12:07.697
I think that's a very thorough explanation that Louise has given.

01:12:07.997 --> 01:12:13.157
Well, I can tell you from my experience that bankruptcy is turmoil and I didn't

01:12:13.157 --> 01:12:14.777
even file a bankruptcy, right?

01:12:15.177 --> 01:12:23.337
When I got my first divorce, that's a whole other podcast for another day, my ex filed bankruptcy.

01:12:23.937 --> 01:12:32.137
And so it was like, she had a car, for example, and then I had a car,

01:12:32.337 --> 01:12:37.177
but she co-signed the car because I got my car earlier in the marriage.

01:12:37.517 --> 01:12:42.777
And so she co-signed on it. So when she filed bankruptcy, I didn't have a car

01:12:42.777 --> 01:12:45.877
anymore because you could only have one car, right?

01:12:46.417 --> 01:12:53.937
So So I can definitely speak to the turmoil because it was a whole lot of other

01:12:53.937 --> 01:12:56.897
stuff I had to manage to deal with that.

01:12:56.997 --> 01:12:59.877
And I said, whatever I do, no matter how much I'm struggling,

01:13:00.137 --> 01:13:03.497
I am not going to file bankruptcy. I'm not going to go through that.

01:13:03.617 --> 01:13:05.737
And I sure wouldn't want to put that on anybody else.

01:13:06.057 --> 01:13:11.437
But I'm glad succinctly that you were able to explain what that means, Louise.

01:13:11.817 --> 01:13:15.857
And then, like you said, you've got a whole chapter in the book that really goes into that.

01:13:16.297 --> 01:13:20.437
But Eric, I will say, it surprised me a little bit as we were researching the

01:13:20.437 --> 01:13:21.497
book and learning about it.

01:13:21.797 --> 01:13:25.017
And this captures the approach Ebony and I took to the book,

01:13:25.197 --> 01:13:26.697
too, which I think readers will.

01:13:28.224 --> 01:13:32.084
It was very organic to the stories we heard from the regular people and the

01:13:32.084 --> 01:13:33.204
different families we interviewed.

01:13:33.724 --> 01:13:36.844
We didn't set out and outline the book and say, oh, we're going to write on bankruptcy.

01:13:37.404 --> 01:13:41.964
But it came up in so many interviews and the actual narratives that we realized

01:13:41.964 --> 01:13:43.984
we had to understand it and what was happening.

01:13:44.144 --> 01:13:46.624
So then we looked at the data. We looked at the academic research.

01:13:46.784 --> 01:13:47.964
We looked at the laws around it.

01:13:47.964 --> 01:13:54.104
And we were able to put some answers on the question of why for these families,

01:13:54.484 --> 01:13:58.404
these black families we were speaking with, why was it happening differently

01:13:58.404 --> 01:14:01.304
from white families in terms of the mercy I got, they got.

01:14:01.304 --> 01:14:07.284
But what really surprised me is I had, you know, maybe for the most part heard

01:14:07.284 --> 01:14:13.344
from people that part of the way you have unequal systems is whether people,

01:14:13.664 --> 01:14:17.744
you know, you talk about things like transfers, giving money to people,

01:14:18.004 --> 01:14:19.344
lifting people up through those things.

01:14:19.344 --> 01:14:25.664
But I had never thought before about ways if people get relief from something

01:14:25.664 --> 01:14:26.584
as wealth creating, right?

01:14:26.684 --> 01:14:29.424
So you hear about families like, you know, get handouts.

01:14:29.624 --> 01:14:33.304
So like white families, for example, benefited a lot more after World War II

01:14:33.304 --> 01:14:36.364
in financing the GI Bill for houses.

01:14:36.504 --> 01:14:38.404
Okay, so I get it. They're getting money, they're getting loans,

01:14:38.464 --> 01:14:43.584
bill houses, but I hadn't occurred to before that also our systems for relief.

01:14:44.244 --> 01:14:48.684
If applied unequally, then again, give this advantage.

01:14:48.684 --> 01:14:53.924
So I think it really opens up your eyes to the amount of things we have to reform,

01:14:54.104 --> 01:14:58.664
not just the benefits that are given out and so on, but also the relief.

01:14:58.664 --> 01:15:01.044
And does everybody have access to the same relief?

01:15:01.184 --> 01:15:04.164
And all kinds of programs that come up, especially in downturns,

01:15:04.384 --> 01:15:08.124
you have to say, do people know about it? Do they have equal access?

01:15:08.304 --> 01:15:12.244
Are they getting access to it? And a lot of times we have new equality come

01:15:12.244 --> 01:15:15.764
out of essentially mercy programs because it doesn't get spread equally. Yeah.

01:15:18.283 --> 01:15:22.743
Louise is making a really good point about the mercy programs,

01:15:22.963 --> 01:15:25.343
Eric, and how they can lead to inequality.

01:15:25.503 --> 01:15:28.763
I mean, like, for example, Social Security, you know, when it was initially

01:15:28.763 --> 01:15:33.823
set up, you know, Black Americans weren't eligible because they weren't in jobs

01:15:33.823 --> 01:15:40.443
that were eligible for Social Security because many of them were in either domestic or farming jobs.

01:15:40.443 --> 01:15:44.763
And when we think about, you know, World War II, and we think about the GI Bill,

01:15:44.903 --> 01:15:49.203
which Louise just mentioned, I mean, there was a very, very small percentage

01:15:49.203 --> 01:15:54.043
of Black Americans that could use the benefit, you know, to buy a home,

01:15:54.163 --> 01:15:55.143
which is wealth creation.

01:15:55.423 --> 01:16:00.583
And the GI Bill was set up for all GIs that had fought when they came back home

01:16:00.583 --> 01:16:03.403
to be able to buy homes, go to school, start businesses.

01:16:03.403 --> 01:16:07.763
And, you know, I'll tell you as an aside in the reporting for this book,

01:16:07.923 --> 01:16:12.343
you know, I found out that, you know, I have an unusual connection with the

01:16:12.343 --> 01:16:14.383
GI Bill. You know, my grandfather was a veteran.

01:16:14.683 --> 01:16:20.463
He had a purple heart and he was one of the few, like less than 3% of Black

01:16:20.463 --> 01:16:23.623
Americans that were able to use the GI Bill to even buy a home.

01:16:23.623 --> 01:16:28.103
And so, you know, sometimes when we see people in society that are,

01:16:28.263 --> 01:16:32.283
you know, successful, we may not realize, you know, like what their background

01:16:32.283 --> 01:16:35.463
is or how they may be unusual from other people.

01:16:35.583 --> 01:16:40.923
It really gave me a moment to reflect on how I didn't realize I had this unusual

01:16:40.923 --> 01:16:46.543
experience in my family tree compared to other Black Americans that were not

01:16:46.543 --> 01:16:51.663
able and where the majority of Black veterans were not able to use the bill

01:16:51.663 --> 01:16:52.863
for them and their families.

01:16:53.682 --> 01:16:58.742
Yeah. And then the other nuance about bankruptcy that, you know,

01:16:58.822 --> 01:17:01.542
people need to know is that it varies from state to state.

01:17:01.802 --> 01:17:07.122
There's federal bankruptcy laws, but then, you know, each state can modify it

01:17:07.122 --> 01:17:12.642
as far as, you know, just my experience in Mississippi, it was like,

01:17:13.042 --> 01:17:18.042
seemed like every year we had a bill saying, okay, well, we want to exempt this and exempt that.

01:17:18.042 --> 01:17:22.502
And it got to a point where, you know, we were joking with the chairman of the committee.

01:17:22.702 --> 01:17:26.602
It's like, are your rich friends talking to you every year about something they

01:17:26.602 --> 01:17:28.662
want to protect in these bankruptcy things?

01:17:28.862 --> 01:17:31.542
Because you keep bringing a bill every year. Can't you just come up with one

01:17:31.542 --> 01:17:34.462
bill that we just deal with that and keep it moving for a decade?

01:17:34.702 --> 01:17:39.962
But that's another nuance that catches people in that trap that it's like it

01:17:39.962 --> 01:17:46.362
depends on what state you're in, how much mercy or lack thereof that you will have.

01:17:46.362 --> 01:17:52.682
Talk about how the challenges y'all discuss in Chapter 10, which is black banking

01:17:52.682 --> 01:17:57.082
and civil rights, impact reducing the racial wealth gap.

01:17:58.112 --> 01:18:02.392
The challenges and what, Eric, I couldn't quite understand. The challenges that,

01:18:02.512 --> 01:18:06.952
you know, it was, you know, like there was conflicts like within the civil rights

01:18:06.952 --> 01:18:10.792
movement about dealing with, you know,

01:18:11.352 --> 01:18:14.072
economics or, you know, it was even a debate.

01:18:14.072 --> 01:18:20.612
It was just like one exchange where y'all talked about Andy Young and Dr.

01:18:20.712 --> 01:18:27.352
King were having dinner with Harry Belafonte and Andy Young was making a point and Dr.

01:18:27.452 --> 01:18:31.492
King said, well, you're a capitalist, I'm not, you know. And so that just kind

01:18:31.492 --> 01:18:36.552
of showed, you know, the conflict even within the civil rights movement about

01:18:36.552 --> 01:18:42.132
how to address poverty and the wealth gap issue.

01:18:42.392 --> 01:18:46.632
So just kind of talk about, because like I said, in chapter 10,

01:18:46.752 --> 01:18:47.972
y'all went deep into that.

01:18:48.152 --> 01:18:51.312
So just kind of give a summary of how that impacts.

01:18:51.692 --> 01:18:56.112
Well, you know, the civil rights movement, there are many different points of

01:18:56.112 --> 01:18:59.352
view within it, but there has been a lot of dissent about capitalism.

01:18:59.992 --> 01:19:04.432
Within the civil rights movement. And indeed, beyond civil rights in our society

01:19:04.432 --> 01:19:07.152
today, people of all racial groups, including white Americans,

01:19:07.372 --> 01:19:09.772
there's debate about capitalism, right?

01:19:09.872 --> 01:19:14.112
Like the whole Occupy Wall Street movement, which was not one racial group,

01:19:14.212 --> 01:19:17.312
and there were plenty of white, black, Latino, all different races of people

01:19:17.312 --> 01:19:20.172
out protesting the banks and Occupy Wall Street.

01:19:20.372 --> 01:19:25.352
So we have debate in our country on capitalism and had for a long time.

01:19:25.512 --> 01:19:28.812
And when Ebony and I were looking at the black-white wealth gap and looking

01:19:28.812 --> 01:19:30.632
at the civil rights leaders debating it.

01:19:30.852 --> 01:19:34.592
One of the big aha moments I had that left me.

01:19:35.372 --> 01:19:39.912
Not sure where all this was going to go was I realized over time and every day I got talking,

01:19:40.092 --> 01:19:44.532
and it was interesting when we discussed it, that some of the people who are

01:19:44.532 --> 01:19:49.232
very strong advocates for Black wealth creation and have done some things that

01:19:49.232 --> 01:19:50.632
have helped many Black Americans,

01:19:51.504 --> 01:19:56.244
Really, the way that they viewed the world was it would be a success for black

01:19:56.244 --> 01:20:01.364
Americans if there could be a distribution of wealth for black Americans that

01:20:01.364 --> 01:20:04.244
mirrors the distribution of wealth for white Americans.

01:20:04.624 --> 01:20:07.304
Remember, among white Americans, it's actually really unequal, too.

01:20:07.844 --> 01:20:14.024
So you could actually close a black-white wealth gap with the averages,

01:20:14.024 --> 01:20:17.884
if you compare the averages, not the medians, by making several more,

01:20:18.084 --> 01:20:20.844
a bunch more black billionaires.

01:20:22.024 --> 01:20:24.484
And most black families wouldn't have much more money because,

01:20:24.524 --> 01:20:25.864
you know, with an average, you're just going to pull it up.

01:20:26.264 --> 01:20:29.544
So at the end, as Ebony and I, as we really got deep in this,

01:20:29.624 --> 01:20:33.224
we're talking, we really ended up debating and trying to understand different

01:20:33.224 --> 01:20:37.904
leaders who are pushing for closing the black-white wealth gap. what did they mean?

01:20:38.044 --> 01:20:42.444
Do they mean a broader distribution of families having more wealth?

01:20:42.784 --> 01:20:49.624
Or did they mean a breakthrough in wealth for a small subset of Black professionals?

01:20:49.864 --> 01:20:52.344
And that's a nuance. A lot of times when you hear people say,

01:20:52.524 --> 01:20:57.404
we've got to close that gap, unless you really push them, you won't know where they are on that.

01:20:57.484 --> 01:21:01.744
Are they trying to close it for an elite group of Black Americans in one neighborhood?

01:21:02.364 --> 01:21:05.064
And by the way, maybe that's a legit point of view. And again,

01:21:05.064 --> 01:21:06.744
And that's how a lot of white Americans view it.

01:21:07.144 --> 01:21:11.844
But other black civil rights leaders like a Dr. Keem were much more focused

01:21:11.844 --> 01:21:14.064
on the like kind of the masses of black Americans.

01:21:16.084 --> 01:21:24.144
All right. And, you know, I just think about I was working for the ACLU right

01:21:24.144 --> 01:21:27.004
during the Black Lives Matter when it first started.

01:21:28.126 --> 01:21:34.066
And, you know, I was talking to a lot of the younger people because I kind of

01:21:34.066 --> 01:21:37.386
thought that they were going to go along the same lines.

01:21:37.586 --> 01:21:43.206
It's like we need to get rid of capitalism and and all this stuff and start

01:21:43.206 --> 01:21:45.846
anew and give everybody a chance.

01:21:46.146 --> 01:21:49.626
But most of the young people I talked to that were really into the movement,

01:21:49.626 --> 01:21:52.586
they were like, oh, no, we like making money. We like capitalism.

01:21:52.906 --> 01:21:59.226
We just want a fair opportunity to do it. And we want to, if we got a job,

01:21:59.386 --> 01:22:02.786
we want to make the same amount as somebody else and all that.

01:22:02.926 --> 01:22:08.826
So it's very nuanced. And I've had people on the show that have said we got

01:22:08.826 --> 01:22:12.106
to get rid of capitalism. And I've had people, you know, saying,

01:22:12.186 --> 01:22:15.946
you know, the more money they make, the better the country will be.

01:22:16.166 --> 01:22:19.446
So, you know, and then just some people say, well, we just need to have our

01:22:19.446 --> 01:22:23.386
own country and do things.

01:22:23.386 --> 01:22:31.086
So, you know, it's a very, I won't say touchy, but I don't think there's a consensus

01:22:31.086 --> 01:22:32.746
at this particular point.

01:22:32.906 --> 01:22:37.766
I think there's a majority view, but I don't think there's a consensus and strategy,

01:22:37.766 --> 01:22:41.386
which kind of leads me to the next question.

01:22:41.826 --> 01:22:49.626
In Chapter 11, you write about the impacts, stock ownership and tax policy exacerbate the gap.

01:22:49.626 --> 01:22:54.946
You further admonish the readers and the afterward to support more transparency

01:22:54.946 --> 01:23:00.546
into wealth distribution and ask who benefits from new government policies.

01:23:00.866 --> 01:23:07.286
So my question to you all is, in your opinion, is there any specific policies

01:23:07.286 --> 01:23:13.006
or actions that government can undertake to reduce the racial wealth gap in America?

01:23:14.086 --> 01:23:21.646
Well, I'll start us off on that. I mean, Eric, we didn't take a policy perspective on purpose and,

01:23:22.518 --> 01:23:28.698
journalists. You know, we don't, but just a couple talking about and what's happening.

01:23:28.918 --> 01:23:32.598
And that's how we approach this book. So we made personal recommendations at the end.

01:23:33.518 --> 01:23:39.418
I've been watching some of the discussion at the federal level about whether or not companies,

01:23:39.618 --> 01:23:45.138
LLCs, should be limited in how many homes they can purchase and what the impact

01:23:45.138 --> 01:23:50.018
could be on that for people trying to buy homes and available home stock.

01:23:50.358 --> 01:23:56.298
And, you know, we do cover, you know, the difference in home ownership rates in the book.

01:23:56.538 --> 01:24:02.338
And, you know, for certain generations that has led to wealth creation.

01:24:02.538 --> 01:24:08.398
There is a debate among younger Black Americans whether or not that is the way

01:24:08.398 --> 01:24:11.018
to go and whether they should do other things with their money,

01:24:11.198 --> 01:24:15.538
such as, you know, invest in the stock market or start businesses.

01:24:16.638 --> 01:24:20.058
The other thing from a policy perspective, you know, that I've been watching,

01:24:20.318 --> 01:24:23.678
because I still have, you know, a little bit, not that much,

01:24:23.758 --> 01:24:27.018
but I still have a little bit of graduate student loans, is,

01:24:27.158 --> 01:24:30.498
you know, what will happen with, you know, loan forgiveness in our country.

01:24:31.238 --> 01:24:35.258
And at one point, we were moving in that direction, and then it's been, you know, reversed.

01:24:35.558 --> 01:24:39.378
And that wasn't a policy that was targeting one group of people,

01:24:39.578 --> 01:24:44.878
but certainly, you know, Black Americans that, you know, attend college tend

01:24:44.878 --> 01:24:48.338
to have higher amounts of debt, you know, and stood to benefit,

01:24:48.538 --> 01:24:50.058
you know, from that policy.

01:24:51.316 --> 01:24:53.876
I think, Eric, by the way, what policy could change it? Like,

01:24:54.076 --> 01:24:58.676
before we can even answer that, I think you'd have to have a country where people

01:24:58.676 --> 01:25:02.296
want wealth gaps to be decreased.

01:25:03.136 --> 01:25:09.176
And I don't think that's the state of our country or I don't know about the whole world.

01:25:09.336 --> 01:25:11.996
But, you know, people don't want to talk about them.

01:25:12.396 --> 01:25:15.876
People, you know, even a few years ago when we first started working on the

01:25:15.876 --> 01:25:20.216
book after 2020, people were very enthusiastic to learn more about racial wealth gaps.

01:25:20.776 --> 01:25:23.936
Now, if you bring the topic up, people say, well, those are gaps.

01:25:24.096 --> 01:25:27.016
Let's not talk about what divides us. Let's talk about what unites us.

01:25:27.096 --> 01:25:30.096
Well, we're not really united in our wealth levels, and people don't want to

01:25:30.096 --> 01:25:32.276
talk about that, and that's because people don't want to address it.

01:25:32.376 --> 01:25:37.716
So I don't think you even can really deeply go into these policies if basically

01:25:37.716 --> 01:25:43.176
we're in a society where so many people are focused on preserving what they

01:25:43.176 --> 01:25:45.916
have rather than pushing for wider progress.

01:25:46.496 --> 01:25:52.596
Yeah, you know, I agree. First of all, I, you know, I agree with y'all's strategy,

01:25:52.796 --> 01:25:56.676
not that you needed my approval, but I agree with y'all's strategy of not getting

01:25:56.676 --> 01:25:59.896
into the meat of the policy stuff.

01:26:00.056 --> 01:26:05.036
Just present the facts and let people that I used to be and,

01:26:05.056 --> 01:26:10.516
you know, other elected officials take the data and do what they need to do with it.

01:26:10.516 --> 01:26:16.656
I think that's a great observation, Louise, that, you know, we don't really

01:26:16.656 --> 01:26:22.556
have a collective will to to push for equality because everybody thinks,

01:26:22.836 --> 01:26:25.556
well, if if they get something,

01:26:25.976 --> 01:26:27.956
then I'm going to lose something. Right.

01:26:28.596 --> 01:26:33.956
And, you know, when you try to explain to people, there's literally one percent

01:26:33.956 --> 01:26:38.396
of the nation that controls 50 percent of the wealth in this country.

01:26:38.396 --> 01:26:41.456
It's like, if anybody's going to be losing it, it's those folks.

01:26:41.636 --> 01:26:43.916
The rest of us will benefit from that.

01:26:44.236 --> 01:26:49.276
But, you know, and I always remember that Lending Tree commercial.

01:26:49.276 --> 01:26:52.036
I don't know if y'all remember the one where the guy is like.

01:26:52.981 --> 01:26:56.001
You know, mowing his lawn and he's out playing golf and then,

01:26:56.101 --> 01:26:58.621
you know, he's, you know, explaining his life.

01:26:58.781 --> 01:27:02.701
And then he turns to the camera and he says, and I'm in debt to my eyeballs.

01:27:02.801 --> 01:27:03.541
You know what I'm saying?

01:27:04.041 --> 01:27:07.021
These are the, this is the reality we live in.

01:27:07.301 --> 01:27:11.761
Right. And you even address it that most Americans have a quote unquote negative

01:27:11.761 --> 01:27:18.361
net worth because they're paying a mortgage. They're paying a car note.

01:27:18.521 --> 01:27:20.461
They don't own it outright.

01:27:20.721 --> 01:27:23.861
You know what I'm saying? And they're financing these things.

01:27:24.081 --> 01:27:32.201
So we count it as an asset. But is it really because you don't totally own it

01:27:32.201 --> 01:27:34.841
just yet? You're still paying on those bills.

01:27:35.041 --> 01:27:39.141
So I really like the way that y'all went about it.

01:27:39.201 --> 01:27:45.121
And then I had a privilege of attending a workshop. That's how we met.

01:27:46.001 --> 01:27:53.381
And, you know, just to have the panel and have experts come in and kind of expound on it and all that,

01:27:53.561 --> 01:27:59.581
I think y'all really did a great job in laying out the case that we have this

01:27:59.581 --> 01:28:01.641
problem and it needs to be solved.

01:28:01.641 --> 01:28:11.661
And we need to have, in my Star Trek language, a collective mind to solve this problem.

01:28:11.661 --> 01:28:19.141
So before I get into, you know, asking y'all about how people can get involved,

01:28:19.301 --> 01:28:21.261
I want y'all to finish this sentence for me.

01:28:21.681 --> 01:28:23.661
I have hope because...

01:28:25.228 --> 01:28:31.648
Well, I have hope because more and more people, you know, through many aspects

01:28:31.648 --> 01:28:35.988
of our society are closer with each other in the U.S. and also globally.

01:28:36.468 --> 01:28:42.048
And the approach of our book was to let you get to know some people in the book.

01:28:42.188 --> 01:28:46.068
And, you know, you really get to know the people in the book,

01:28:46.068 --> 01:28:48.448
and they really seem like people

01:28:48.448 --> 01:28:53.728
you could just go on a trip with or sit next to at lunch or, you know—,

01:28:54.341 --> 01:28:58.441
And some people, I think anyone reading our book, no matter your politics,

01:28:58.761 --> 01:29:04.681
no matter your age, no matter your wealth or income level, you will relate to

01:29:04.681 --> 01:29:09.021
the people on our book who may or may not be similar to you in those dimensions.

01:29:09.021 --> 01:29:13.381
And so the thing that gives me the most hope is when I see people connecting

01:29:13.381 --> 01:29:18.321
with other people on a very human level, and as we see that,

01:29:18.561 --> 01:29:22.061
we can all understand the commonality on a human level,

01:29:22.701 --> 01:29:27.421
fear of differences can be removed, and then differences that are meaningless,

01:29:27.701 --> 01:29:31.281
and then we can address the differences that are meaningful,

01:29:31.281 --> 01:29:33.821
like why is it that wealth is different?

01:29:33.821 --> 01:29:36.281
So I just get hope when I see, you know, those kind of connections.

01:29:36.281 --> 01:29:40.901
And I'm so fortunate to have been able to work in partnership with Ebony on the book.

01:29:41.241 --> 01:29:44.481
You know, she and I have so much in common. We're both kind of middle-aged,

01:29:44.601 --> 01:29:48.361
sorry, Ebony, but we're middle-aged professionals, been in journalism a few decades.

01:29:49.001 --> 01:29:51.541
Both of us went to good colleges, worked at great institutions.

01:29:52.081 --> 01:29:53.401
But we have some differences.

01:29:53.701 --> 01:29:56.461
We're both, you know, we're black and white. We're different races.

01:29:56.461 --> 01:30:01.341
But also we understand more deeply that our skin color,

01:30:01.601 --> 01:30:05.241
though I didn't come from a super long lineage of wealthy families,

01:30:05.461 --> 01:30:09.581
the white privilege that some of my family has had, you know,

01:30:09.721 --> 01:30:12.481
my father is the first in his family to go to college, but had he been black,

01:30:12.501 --> 01:30:16.641
he couldn't have done what he did for various reasons, which I put in the afterward of the book.

01:30:17.361 --> 01:30:20.341
So understanding that, working together, we learned a lot.

01:30:20.501 --> 01:30:24.401
So one recommendation we give in the book is that we hope more people will find

01:30:24.401 --> 01:30:28.781
a meaningful way in their life to partner with someone who's very different,

01:30:28.941 --> 01:30:31.521
maybe a different racial group, maybe a very different economic level.

01:30:31.961 --> 01:30:35.161
And not just like a little project, but like where you've got your reputation

01:30:35.161 --> 01:30:36.721
on the line and your money on the line.

01:30:36.741 --> 01:30:41.321
It's a lot of time because Ebony and I, I don't know, tell me you disagree, Ebony.

01:30:41.461 --> 01:30:45.161
Like I learned through reporting, but I also learned by working so hard to just

01:30:45.161 --> 01:30:48.901
have a fair partnership with you when the reality is lives are different and

01:30:48.901 --> 01:30:50.021
you have to work at Fairness.

01:30:50.731 --> 01:30:54.711
I agree. I agree. Definitely. It has been a privilege to work with you too,

01:30:54.791 --> 01:30:58.171
Louise, and on this book and in the work around it.

01:30:58.311 --> 01:31:03.191
I mean, I would add to that, that, you know, Eric, I have hope because through

01:31:03.191 --> 01:31:09.791
this work, I better understand the history of wealth and money in our country

01:31:09.791 --> 01:31:11.451
and my own family history.

01:31:12.251 --> 01:31:16.371
And when you start to peel back the layers and you start to like trace your

01:31:16.371 --> 01:31:22.051
family tree, and then you see, oh, this person in my family line experienced

01:31:22.051 --> 01:31:25.251
these challenges, and this is how they overcame it,

01:31:25.611 --> 01:31:30.091
then it does give you a little bit of hope and a little bit of a boost where

01:31:30.091 --> 01:31:33.791
you think like, well, I can, you know, overcome things too.

01:31:34.011 --> 01:31:38.071
And so, you know, I hope through the stories of the people that,

01:31:38.151 --> 01:31:41.691
you know, people will read about in the book, as they encounter them and they

01:31:41.691 --> 01:31:45.751
see that they face challenges too, you see that they never gave up hope.

01:31:45.891 --> 01:31:49.071
And then you see who they're related to and you see like, well,

01:31:49.211 --> 01:31:50.611
those people didn't give up hope.

01:31:50.751 --> 01:31:55.011
You know, that I hope it will, you know, encourage other people to be hopeful,

01:31:55.011 --> 01:31:58.551
but then to also think about who are they related to and maybe they want to

01:31:58.551 --> 01:32:04.151
trace their family tree and go on their own family journey as well. Yeah, yeah.

01:32:05.391 --> 01:32:07.171
Just talking to somebody else.

01:32:08.493 --> 01:32:15.573
About history is just like the biggest treasure trove you have is your own family.

01:32:16.313 --> 01:32:19.753
And it's, you know, just going through this American experience,

01:32:19.973 --> 01:32:21.553
doesn't matter if you're black, white, whatever.

01:32:22.313 --> 01:32:26.833
And one of my regrets is just not sitting down with a recorder with some of

01:32:26.833 --> 01:32:31.353
my older relatives and just saying, so what was that really, really like?

01:32:31.493 --> 01:32:40.333
You know what I'm saying? So I'm always appreciate people who take the time to do that.

01:32:40.553 --> 01:32:46.613
And one of the reasons why this book, I think, is so successful is because you told a story.

01:32:47.213 --> 01:32:52.553
And, you know, in politics, if we had more people to tell stories,

01:32:52.893 --> 01:32:57.513
then I think we would have more responsive leaders.

01:32:57.873 --> 01:33:04.573
We would elect people, the storytellers, the people that can combine and be

01:33:04.573 --> 01:33:08.033
able to express things where people can relate to it.

01:33:08.213 --> 01:33:12.373
You would start seeing consensus being built.

01:33:12.733 --> 01:33:18.353
Anyway, I'm not going to go on my political speech. I want y'all to tell the

01:33:18.353 --> 01:33:23.113
listeners how they can do like I did and show up at a workshop that y'all are

01:33:23.113 --> 01:33:27.793
conducting or buy the book or get in touch with y'all. How can people do that?

01:33:29.063 --> 01:33:32.263
They should read the book. I think they'll get a lot out of reading the book.

01:33:32.443 --> 01:33:37.803
And then at this juncture, if they want to do a workshop with us, they should email us.

01:33:37.923 --> 01:33:41.683
You can contact us through our website, which is 15cents.info.

01:33:41.783 --> 01:33:44.243
So it's just one five cents.info.

01:33:44.383 --> 01:33:47.263
And there's a contact button at the bottom, which will email us.

01:33:47.463 --> 01:33:52.343
They should get together a large group of people, ideally, probably given how

01:33:52.343 --> 01:33:54.783
life is busy, to come on to a Zoom with us.

01:33:54.903 --> 01:33:58.963
And we would be glad to answer their questions, hear their stories and share insights.

01:33:59.063 --> 01:34:01.723
That they get a big group of people together who are going to read this book

01:34:01.723 --> 01:34:03.703
and think about these important topics.

01:34:04.003 --> 01:34:07.503
And that's kind of what we're able to do right now. But we're so honored when

01:34:07.503 --> 01:34:10.463
people are reading the book and discussing this and spreading this data.

01:34:11.263 --> 01:34:15.003
Yes, and we're also both, you know, active on the social. We're on LinkedIn.

01:34:15.403 --> 01:34:18.003
People can also reach out there too and DM us as well.

01:34:18.903 --> 01:34:24.963
All right. Well, Louise Story and Ebony Reed, this was worth it.

01:34:25.143 --> 01:34:28.723
This was worth my pursuit to get y'all to come on.

01:34:29.063 --> 01:34:34.603
I greatly admire you, ladies. I greatly admire the passion that you've put into

01:34:34.603 --> 01:34:38.143
it and to utilize your talents to tell the story.

01:34:38.563 --> 01:34:43.843
And I also encourage people to get the book. It's called 15 Cents on the Dollar,

01:34:44.263 --> 01:34:46.883
How Americans Made the Black-White Wealth Gap.

01:34:47.043 --> 01:34:50.503
So thank you all for taking the time out and being on the podcast.

01:34:51.343 --> 01:34:54.863
Thank you. Thank you. All right, guys. And we're going to catch you all on the other side.

01:35:14.241 --> 01:35:20.541
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Elizabeth Jamison.

01:35:21.021 --> 01:35:27.581
Elizabeth Jamison, also known as Libby, was born into a Navy family and moved

01:35:27.581 --> 01:35:29.761
four times before she turned 10 years old.

01:35:30.141 --> 01:35:33.241
Following her father's retirement from the submarine service,

01:35:33.461 --> 01:35:37.521
the family moved to a remote village in the Cascade Mountains in Washington

01:35:37.521 --> 01:35:39.361
State, unreachable by car.

01:35:40.341 --> 01:35:43.441
Libby attended a one-room schoolhouse until eighth grade.

01:35:43.821 --> 01:35:47.601
After graduating from high school, she attended the University of Washington,

01:35:47.721 --> 01:35:51.261
Seattle, where she majored in law, societies, and justice.

01:35:51.621 --> 01:35:56.321
After marrying a naval aviator and undergoing her first permanent change of

01:35:56.321 --> 01:35:59.541
station move, Libby found herself in San Diego.

01:35:59.541 --> 01:36:04.381
She immediately enrolled in the Thomas Jefferson School of Law and graduated

01:36:04.381 --> 01:36:10.101
cum laude after serving as a law review member and fellow for the Thomas Jefferson

01:36:10.101 --> 01:36:13.101
School of Law Center for Law and Social Justice.

01:36:14.381 --> 01:36:19.601
Since beginning her legal career almost two decades ago, Libby has dedicated

01:36:19.601 --> 01:36:21.741
herself to meaningful advocacy.

01:36:22.561 --> 01:36:27.861
She found ways to contribute to her community no matter where the military sent her family.

01:36:27.861 --> 01:36:32.001
After several years in private practice as a family law attorney,

01:36:32.201 --> 01:36:37.061
during which she volunteered with guardianship and domestic violence legal workshops,

01:36:37.341 --> 01:36:40.021
she started with the Military Spouse J.D.

01:36:40.161 --> 01:36:43.601
Network, ultimately serving as president of the organization,

01:36:43.841 --> 01:36:47.521
supporting career-minded military spouses in the legal profession.

01:36:48.381 --> 01:36:54.121
MSJDN successfully advocated for licensing accommodations in over 40 jurisdictions

01:36:54.121 --> 01:36:57.161
to reduce employment barriers for military spouses,

01:36:57.601 --> 01:37:03.361
laying the foundation for the January 2023 Congressional Amendment to the Service

01:37:03.361 --> 01:37:07.621
Members Civil Relief Act, allowing service members and their spouses to use

01:37:07.621 --> 01:37:11.761
their professional licenses when they relocate due to military orders.

01:37:12.841 --> 01:37:17.481
Libby has served in a variety of ways, including leading the San Diego Military

01:37:17.481 --> 01:37:20.641
Spouse Economic Empowerment Zone for the U.S.

01:37:20.981 --> 01:37:25.621
Chamber of Commerce and organizing the Homefront Rising Initiative to encourage

01:37:25.621 --> 01:37:28.521
military family voices and civic leadership.

01:37:28.841 --> 01:37:32.261
While earning a master's degree in public leadership from the University of

01:37:32.261 --> 01:37:37.261
San Francisco, she authored the Military Spouse's Guide to Running for Office.

01:37:38.261 --> 01:37:43.301
Libby's advocacy took her to D.C., where she spent seven years as an attorney

01:37:43.301 --> 01:37:45.681
advisor at the Department of Veterans Affairs.

01:37:46.041 --> 01:37:51.201
She also spent a year on Capitol Hill advising Senator Tom Tillis on issues

01:37:51.201 --> 01:37:54.381
relating to veterans and military-connected families.

01:37:55.201 --> 01:38:00.921
Libby then moved to the White House, serving as senior advisor to Joining Forces, Dr.

01:38:01.021 --> 01:38:06.661
Biden's initiative supporting veteran and military families' caregivers and survivors.

01:38:07.540 --> 01:38:12.220
There, she coordinated the interagency process, obtaining over 80 commitments

01:38:12.220 --> 01:38:18.460
to veterans and military families as outlined in the September 2021 White House

01:38:18.460 --> 01:38:21.100
Strengthening America's Military Families report.

01:38:21.100 --> 01:38:27.220
She also spearheaded the June 2023 Executive Order on Advancing Economic Security

01:38:27.220 --> 01:38:29.160
for Military and Veteran Spouses,

01:38:29.620 --> 01:38:35.620
Military Caregivers, and Survivors, a comprehensive set of executive actions

01:38:35.620 --> 01:38:39.160
to increase the economic security of military-connected families,

01:38:39.440 --> 01:38:45.020
including nearly 20 actions aimed at enhancing career stability and expanding

01:38:45.020 --> 01:38:48.160
employment resources and support for this community.

01:38:48.900 --> 01:38:54.080
During the 2024 presidential cycle, Libby worked on the legal team at the Democratic

01:38:54.080 --> 01:38:58.600
National Committee and then served as National Director of Veteran and Military

01:38:58.600 --> 01:39:01.220
Family Engagement for the Harris-Walls campaign.

01:39:01.880 --> 01:39:07.460
Post-campaign, she founded State of Grace Counseling to help organizations tackle

01:39:07.460 --> 01:39:11.620
the issues most important to our communities and our country through strategic

01:39:11.620 --> 01:39:14.460
partnerships, policy development, research, and more.

01:39:14.460 --> 01:39:17.680
She also serves as principal attorney at E.

01:39:17.820 --> 01:39:23.200
Grace Law Firm, with a focus on supporting veterans, families, and small businesses.

01:39:23.660 --> 01:39:31.560
For her efforts, Libby has been recognized as Military.com's 2019 Spouse Changemaker

01:39:31.560 --> 01:39:34.920
of the Year, a 2019 scholar with the George W.

01:39:35.060 --> 01:39:42.760
Bush Institute's Stand to Veteran Leadership Program, and a member of the 2023 Mighty 25.

01:39:42.760 --> 01:39:47.640
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

01:39:47.640 --> 01:39:51.100
on this podcast, Elizabeth Jamison.

01:40:01.747 --> 01:40:05.807
All right. Elizabeth Jamison, how are you doing?

01:40:06.607 --> 01:40:11.167
Good. How are you? I'm doing good. I'm doing good. Glad to have you on.

01:40:12.455 --> 01:40:16.955
I don't know where I saw. I saw you on television somewhere.

01:40:17.515 --> 01:40:23.335
And I said, I probably need to talk to her because there's a lot of issues I

01:40:23.335 --> 01:40:26.335
pay attention to and commit to.

01:40:26.735 --> 01:40:34.595
One of the things that I've always had a fascination with is how America treats its veterans.

01:40:35.375 --> 01:40:41.675
And I just, you know, the history of this nation and how they used to do stuff.

01:40:42.495 --> 01:40:50.395
And I guess the most jarring thing that bothered me was, I can't remember when

01:40:50.395 --> 01:40:55.035
it was I went to Washington, D.C., but I had to go by the Veterans Administration office.

01:40:55.595 --> 01:40:58.375
And since you've worked there, you know what I'm talking about.

01:40:58.455 --> 01:41:00.355
There's a park like right across the street.

01:41:00.855 --> 01:41:05.635
Yeah. And it was just a bunch. I mean, it was almost like the park was full.

01:41:05.775 --> 01:41:10.855
I thought it was a demonstration at first, but it was just a bunch of homeless veterans.

01:41:11.375 --> 01:41:15.475
And they were camped out, I guess, to try to get attention or wherever the case

01:41:15.475 --> 01:41:17.315
may be, but they were all camped out there.

01:41:17.755 --> 01:41:23.655
And I just said, that doesn't make any sense. How is it that we ask people to

01:41:23.655 --> 01:41:29.315
serve and we can provide them housing when they're serving, but we can't guarantee

01:41:29.315 --> 01:41:31.835
that they have housing when they're out?

01:41:31.975 --> 01:41:34.755
And I understand there's some other issues, but even at that,

01:41:35.015 --> 01:41:41.015
we, you know, we got the VA homes and all that stuff. So the way that America

01:41:41.015 --> 01:41:43.855
has treated veterans has always been an issue with me.

01:41:44.015 --> 01:41:47.855
And the fact that you have set up an organization to deal with a whole other

01:41:47.855 --> 01:41:53.495
subject relating to veterans, it was kind of like, okay, let me get her on and

01:41:53.495 --> 01:41:54.995
let's talk about some of those things.

01:41:55.055 --> 01:41:57.895
But I also want to talk about some perspectives that's going on.

01:41:58.095 --> 01:42:00.615
So, again, thank you for doing that.

01:42:00.995 --> 01:42:05.815
Normally how I start off the show, I do a couple of icebreaking exercises.

01:42:05.815 --> 01:42:10.075
And the first one is, I want you to respond to a quote.

01:42:10.961 --> 01:42:17.921
And the quote is, my advice to others is to find a way to have a positive impact.

01:42:18.281 --> 01:42:22.781
Speak up and act, whether it's through volunteer or paid work.

01:42:23.001 --> 01:42:27.881
Finding a way to help others facing the same challenges as you are is a great

01:42:27.881 --> 01:42:32.221
way to give back and overcome your situation. Give me your thoughts on that quote.

01:42:32.761 --> 01:42:39.321
I think that's so true. I'd love to know who said that, because I think that

01:42:39.321 --> 01:42:43.121
aligns with so much of the work that I've done,

01:42:43.821 --> 01:42:47.761
you know, a lot of it in a volunteer capacity, sometimes for my own,

01:42:47.761 --> 01:42:50.721
you know, my own mental health.

01:42:50.721 --> 01:42:54.261
A lot of the stuff I do now, working with military families,

01:42:54.461 --> 01:42:59.121
trying to rally them to speak up about so many of these issues that really matter,

01:42:59.361 --> 01:43:02.901
is just because I feel like their voices are not being heard.

01:43:03.301 --> 01:43:07.741
And, you know, I want to be able to lay my head on the pillow at night and know

01:43:07.741 --> 01:43:14.521
that I've done everything that I can to push back and to help elevate those voices.

01:43:14.521 --> 01:43:23.481
To answer your question, the person who said that quote was a woman named Elizabeth Jameson. Yeah.

01:43:25.301 --> 01:43:28.261
So, you know, I know it sounds so good.

01:43:29.801 --> 01:43:34.481
All right. So now the next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions.

01:43:35.141 --> 01:43:39.841
So I need you to give me a number between one and 20. Oh, okay.

01:43:40.721 --> 01:43:43.781
Oh, a number now. Okay. 16. All right.

01:43:44.461 --> 01:43:51.421
What some misconception people often have about your beliefs or values? Hmm.

01:43:52.881 --> 01:44:01.021
Well, I think as a white woman who grew up in a military family and in the military

01:44:01.021 --> 01:44:07.421
community, a lot of people ascribe, you know, conservative values to me,

01:44:07.661 --> 01:44:11.581
or I would say Republican values to me right off the bat.

01:44:11.581 --> 01:44:16.961
That because they've heard, you know, the myth that everyone in the military

01:44:16.961 --> 01:44:23.541
community always votes Republican or so it's really interesting sometimes to

01:44:23.541 --> 01:44:25.541
see that that automatic assumption.

01:44:25.541 --> 01:44:30.021
And as somebody who spent, you know, I was fortunate enough to serve on the

01:44:30.021 --> 01:44:34.741
Harris campaign as the director of engagement for veterans and military families.

01:44:34.741 --> 01:44:38.781
So I know how many of us there are out there that fought veterans.

01:44:39.697 --> 01:44:43.757
For her and for what they believed in and, and to protect democracy.

01:44:44.117 --> 01:44:49.617
So that assumption always, you know, I guess I understand it given there,

01:44:49.617 --> 01:44:51.237
there is a large, you know,

01:44:51.397 --> 01:44:55.297
portion of the, the military population that, that certainly is conservative,

01:44:55.297 --> 01:45:00.957
but in this day and age, I just find that a really interesting assumption that happens,

01:45:01.197 --> 01:45:03.257
happens all the time. Okay.

01:45:03.917 --> 01:45:10.557
All right. What is your initial concern about our current military involvement in Iran?

01:45:11.917 --> 01:45:14.317
Well, where to begin?

01:45:15.777 --> 01:45:21.817
I am concerned as a lawyer and someone who is supposed to care about the rule

01:45:21.817 --> 01:45:26.417
of law in this country, which I hope we all do, but especially as someone in

01:45:26.417 --> 01:45:28.697
the legal profession, The way,

01:45:29.197 --> 01:45:36.397
just the mechanics of how we have entered into this are clearly in violation of the Constitution.

01:45:36.397 --> 01:45:41.757
I was actually just watching CNN, and a Republican congressman was on there

01:45:41.757 --> 01:45:46.717
saying this, so I don't think this is, you know, a partisan take.

01:45:46.717 --> 01:45:52.677
This is about the Constitution and the principles that guide our country and

01:45:52.677 --> 01:45:58.557
that clearly give Congress the power to decide whether we go to war with another country.

01:45:58.937 --> 01:46:03.437
And I think that's the way it should be. It's a really serious issue.

01:46:03.717 --> 01:46:09.737
We saw from 20-plus years of when we already did this in the Middle East—.

01:46:10.691 --> 01:46:15.811
You know, billions of dollars, trillions of dollars, thousands of hundreds of

01:46:15.811 --> 01:46:20.551
thousands of lives lost, you know, great personal and human costs.

01:46:20.671 --> 01:46:25.111
And we should have a debate about this as a country. It shouldn't be one person

01:46:25.111 --> 01:46:29.251
or one person in his posse who decides this.

01:46:29.411 --> 01:46:31.791
And so I think that is really troubling.

01:46:32.331 --> 01:46:36.531
Whereas even if this was debated and the ultimate outcome was,

01:46:36.531 --> 01:46:40.871
yes, we're still going to go to war, I would still have qualms with that.

01:46:41.051 --> 01:46:46.631
But at least we would have followed the process that exists for a reason.

01:46:46.971 --> 01:46:50.491
And so that's certainly a really troubling piece of it.

01:46:50.631 --> 01:46:56.411
And then as someone who still has, you know, friends and family around the globe

01:46:56.411 --> 01:47:00.111
who are being impacted by this, just really personally,

01:47:00.651 --> 01:47:06.971
it's been a really tough week or so for the military-connected community.

01:47:07.171 --> 01:47:13.891
I know a lot of veterans who are having old feelings come back up watching another

01:47:13.891 --> 01:47:20.091
generation go through exactly what they went through, and it's like banging your head on the wall,

01:47:20.191 --> 01:47:24.691
and you want to be able to protect them and stop them from...

01:47:25.743 --> 01:47:28.843
What every veteran knows they're about to go and experience.

01:47:29.543 --> 01:47:35.183
And military families, I was just reading, they closed the labor and delivery

01:47:35.183 --> 01:47:38.823
unit at the biggest military hospital in Germany.

01:47:38.823 --> 01:47:44.023
So military families no longer have anywhere to deliver their children.

01:47:44.163 --> 01:47:48.663
They have to go out in town and find somebody to help them because I assume

01:47:48.663 --> 01:47:54.443
the DOD is preparing for, they're expecting casualties and worse.

01:47:55.743 --> 01:47:59.423
At that hospital. So I just think there's really wide ranging,

01:47:59.863 --> 01:48:04.143
you know, there's the big policy impacts that we're talking about in D.C.

01:48:04.663 --> 01:48:12.163
Down to these daily, you know, real world impacts that these families are experiencing as we speak.

01:48:12.403 --> 01:48:15.083
So it's really, really troubling.

01:48:16.123 --> 01:48:20.223
Yeah. And I know we had scheduled this like months in advance,

01:48:20.483 --> 01:48:26.343
but, you know, the timing has, you know, my history, my timing has always been

01:48:26.343 --> 01:48:29.103
really, really good when the guest comes on.

01:48:29.343 --> 01:48:34.923
And I couldn't think of a better person to have on dealing with it because it's

01:48:34.923 --> 01:48:40.323
not just about everybody is just focused in on either the tactics that we're

01:48:40.323 --> 01:48:42.803
using or the process and how we got there.

01:48:43.363 --> 01:48:49.903
But the thing I really appreciate you is that you are bringing the humanity

01:48:49.903 --> 01:48:55.343
into it. And I think a lot of times when we talk about wars or military actions,

01:48:55.603 --> 01:48:57.783
we forget that they are human beings.

01:48:58.063 --> 01:49:04.343
And so I'm really, really glad that you said what you said about the impact

01:49:04.343 --> 01:49:12.323
and how the veterans feel about other young men and women following in their footsteps in that way.

01:49:13.320 --> 01:49:17.760
You brought up about the labor and delivery unit in Germany.

01:49:18.520 --> 01:49:25.680
Overall, how much damage has been done to veterans due to budget cuts and layoffs from the VA?

01:49:26.160 --> 01:49:33.180
Oh, I don't think we're going to have a whole answer to that for years to come.

01:49:33.740 --> 01:49:39.300
Because, you know, with everything that happened with Doge coming in right off

01:49:39.300 --> 01:49:43.980
of the bat, And there was reporting about, you know,

01:49:44.160 --> 01:49:49.620
veterans information being entered into these AI platforms.

01:49:49.620 --> 01:49:56.100
So there could be everything from privacy, you know, issues and exposures that

01:49:56.100 --> 01:50:02.740
we don't even know about to, again, these, you know, trickle down effects of cutting the budget.

01:50:02.740 --> 01:50:06.700
But one of the first things this administration came in and did,

01:50:06.740 --> 01:50:10.720
I think a lot of folks know now, is just decimated the federal workforce.

01:50:11.220 --> 01:50:16.680
And that federal workforce is about a third veterans because so many veterans,

01:50:16.940 --> 01:50:19.960
you know, we've kind of touched on this, but, you know, after service.

01:50:20.580 --> 01:50:24.760
You maybe you're finished with your time in uniform, but you still want to find

01:50:24.760 --> 01:50:27.760
a meaningful mission and to serve your country.

01:50:27.760 --> 01:50:30.740
And the federal government, it was a great way to do that.

01:50:31.020 --> 01:50:36.340
Whether it was still at DOD in a civilian position, a lot of folks went to VA

01:50:36.340 --> 01:50:43.960
to help support their fellow veterans and their families or in other agencies doing great work.

01:50:43.960 --> 01:50:51.220
And so there was a huge immediate impact, you know, to lose an income potentially right out of the gate.

01:50:51.360 --> 01:50:54.960
And there was not a lot of, you know, they didn't come in with a scalpel.

01:50:55.120 --> 01:50:58.420
They came in and just smashed and fired.

01:50:58.680 --> 01:51:00.960
And that was really important.

01:51:01.644 --> 01:51:06.004
And then add on top of that, you know, putting salt in the wound.

01:51:07.084 --> 01:51:13.604
The administration wanted to cut 80,000 positions at VA itself, which.

01:51:14.184 --> 01:51:18.344
You know, we talk about, you opened talking about some of the issues with VA

01:51:18.344 --> 01:51:22.204
not living up to its promise when it was fully staffed.

01:51:22.204 --> 01:51:27.884
And so to cut 80,000 is, I just really struggled with the math to understand

01:51:27.884 --> 01:51:33.884
how we're going to deliver better services to veterans by cutting 80,000 people

01:51:33.884 --> 01:51:35.524
who are there to help them.

01:51:35.644 --> 01:51:37.904
And they ended up rolling that number down.

01:51:38.064 --> 01:51:42.824
They've said it's now about 30,000, which I still think is an incredibly huge

01:51:42.824 --> 01:51:49.464
number and is going to cause a lot of this damage that's hard to capture now.

01:51:49.464 --> 01:51:54.984
But when you think about veterans going in to try and find housing and that

01:51:54.984 --> 01:51:58.384
person isn't answering the phone who's supposed to be there to help them,

01:51:58.504 --> 01:52:05.024
or a caregiver reaching out because they need respite services and that program is no longer staffed.

01:52:05.124 --> 01:52:13.044
I mean, again, there are these very real world harms that are hard to capture.

01:52:13.044 --> 01:52:20.084
And the other thing I would say on this that is incredibly problematic is President

01:52:20.084 --> 01:52:22.764
Biden signed the PACT Act into law.

01:52:22.884 --> 01:52:28.904
And for folks who may not be familiar, that was similar to what we did for veterans

01:52:28.904 --> 01:52:31.324
in Vietnam who were exposed to Agent Orange.

01:52:31.324 --> 01:52:34.964
Well, we had the same thing with folks who went to the Middle East and were

01:52:34.964 --> 01:52:40.424
exposed to burn pits, toxins, all kinds of bad stuff that was causing a host

01:52:40.424 --> 01:52:44.624
of medical issues, respiratory issues, cancer, all kinds of stuff.

01:52:45.044 --> 01:52:46.524
I actually was thinking about the

01:52:46.524 --> 01:52:49.564
PACT Act when you were talking about the veterans camping out in the park.

01:52:50.203 --> 01:52:54.683
Because veterans had to camp out on the stairs of Congress to force them to

01:52:54.683 --> 01:52:58.983
pass the PACT Act, which, you know, talk about not taking care of our people

01:52:58.983 --> 01:53:02.123
after we send them to war. It was pretty egregious.

01:53:02.323 --> 01:53:07.163
But the PACT Act opened the doors so that we could serve even more veterans

01:53:07.163 --> 01:53:11.523
who were experiencing these medical issues and make sure that they weren't waiting

01:53:11.523 --> 01:53:17.003
30 years like we did to the Agent Orange folks and make sure that we got them in to take care of them.

01:53:17.003 --> 01:53:22.303
And so they staffed up, they hired a lot of people because the PACT Act widened

01:53:22.303 --> 01:53:26.183
the aperture for folks to get treatment and support.

01:53:26.443 --> 01:53:30.963
So to now roll that back, again, the math just doesn't add up.

01:53:31.043 --> 01:53:36.083
And I think it's really sad to think about the damage that is happening.

01:53:36.243 --> 01:53:42.963
Some of it, like I said, we may not even know the full impact of yet because it's still playing out.

01:53:43.603 --> 01:53:49.403
Yeah, and obviously you also have an incredible ability to foresee the future

01:53:49.403 --> 01:53:54.123
because that was literally the next question I was going to ask you about the PACT Act.

01:53:55.290 --> 01:54:02.130
And its impacts, because I think it was a great thing for it to pass.

01:54:02.770 --> 01:54:07.990
But like you said, if, you know, if you're going to cut personnel,

01:54:07.990 --> 01:54:12.690
that's going to have a negative impact on implementing that,

01:54:12.830 --> 01:54:14.610
especially at the VA hospital.

01:54:14.890 --> 01:54:17.770
So I'm glad you touched on that and that answer.

01:54:18.510 --> 01:54:24.550
So let's get into some of some of your work that you've been doing outside of the VA.

01:54:25.290 --> 01:54:29.090
Tell the story of how you got involved with the Military Spouses J.D.

01:54:29.230 --> 01:54:32.710
Network and explain the primary purpose of the organization.

01:54:33.570 --> 01:54:37.710
Yeah, absolutely. And I'll say I'm no longer at VA. I have my own solo practice

01:54:37.710 --> 01:54:39.790
now, which is why I can say a lot of what I want.

01:54:42.590 --> 01:54:44.510
But Military Spouse J.D. Network

01:54:44.510 --> 01:54:50.570
is a fantastic organization that I became a part of in, gosh, 2013.

01:54:51.510 --> 01:54:55.270
And I was a young Navy spouse at the time, a young lawyer.

01:54:55.550 --> 01:54:59.470
I had gone to law school. I was the first one in my family to go to law school.

01:54:59.710 --> 01:55:03.850
I didn't really know what I was doing. I didn't talk to a lot of lawyers beforehand.

01:55:03.910 --> 01:55:09.670
I should have done a little more homework because I thought there's lawyers everywhere, right?

01:55:09.850 --> 01:55:13.910
Like it's not gonna be that hard to find a job. Everybody needs a lawyer.

01:55:14.230 --> 01:55:18.410
They're all over the US. There's probably too many of us, but not a problem.

01:55:18.410 --> 01:55:23.210
And I didn't think through the licensing piece of it, which for your listeners

01:55:23.210 --> 01:55:28.050
who may be in a licensed field, which there's so many, and I could do a whole

01:55:28.050 --> 01:55:29.650
podcast about the, like,

01:55:30.410 --> 01:55:34.550
occupational licensing overreach in this country, but they'll know,

01:55:34.810 --> 01:55:39.110
you know, a lot of times a license in one state won't transfer to another state.

01:55:39.290 --> 01:55:42.250
And it's a really big problem for a lot of folks.

01:55:43.253 --> 01:55:48.053
You know, in today's society, we don't just stay in one place a lot of the times anymore.

01:55:48.253 --> 01:55:52.393
But especially for military families who move around every two or three years,

01:55:52.733 --> 01:55:54.813
usually not by choice. The military

01:55:54.813 --> 01:55:57.653
says you're going to do it or you're going to be in a lot of trouble.

01:55:58.573 --> 01:56:03.133
And so after we'd moved a couple of times and I had taken two bar exams,

01:56:03.393 --> 01:56:04.813
I said, you know what? I think I'm good.

01:56:04.973 --> 01:56:09.673
I never want to take another bar exam, especially just to go somewhere for two

01:56:09.673 --> 01:56:16.433
years and you pay all of this money. it was like $5,000 to take the bar exam in, I think, Florida.

01:56:16.773 --> 01:56:20.133
I was like, we're moving again in two years. It just doesn't make sense.

01:56:20.593 --> 01:56:25.393
And so I was trying to figure out what to do and came across MSJDN,

01:56:25.653 --> 01:56:29.733
which was, you know, finding my people who were in the same situation.

01:56:29.833 --> 01:56:36.593
And we really came together, advocated for reduced licensing barriers and some

01:56:36.593 --> 01:56:43.473
reciprocity, essentially in the states if we were moving because of the military to say,

01:56:43.773 --> 01:56:48.133
you know, here's a way that you can make life easier and less stressful for

01:56:48.133 --> 01:56:51.573
military families and reduce some of the economic impact.

01:56:51.633 --> 01:56:56.993
I think a lot of folks don't understand. You kind of mentioned how we can give

01:56:56.993 --> 01:57:00.953
military families housing when they're serving, but not when they get out.

01:57:01.193 --> 01:57:05.813
I think a lot of folks don't know, like food insecurity has actually been measured

01:57:05.813 --> 01:57:09.893
at 25%. among the active duty force.

01:57:10.353 --> 01:57:14.853
I mean, think about that. A quarter, I think it's almost a quarter of the force

01:57:14.853 --> 01:57:17.773
is food insecure at some level.

01:57:18.551 --> 01:57:23.851
And, you know, how do we let that happen in the richest country in the world?

01:57:24.111 --> 01:57:30.191
And so there is a lot of, you know, lower ranking folks are not making a lot of money.

01:57:30.371 --> 01:57:34.751
And sometimes we send them to really high cost of area or high cost of living

01:57:34.751 --> 01:57:38.171
areas like San Diego, Washington, D.C.

01:57:38.611 --> 01:57:41.871
And they get, you know, they get they get some support.

01:57:41.871 --> 01:57:46.331
But if you have a bunch of kids, if you have a spouse who isn't working because

01:57:46.331 --> 01:57:50.411
maybe they're waiting on that license to transfer from the last jurisdiction,

01:57:50.791 --> 01:57:55.851
it can be a really challenging economic existence.

01:57:55.851 --> 01:57:58.871
You don't have a network in the new place that you just landed.

01:57:59.031 --> 01:58:01.371
You don't know anybody to ask for a job.

01:58:01.731 --> 01:58:06.771
And so little things, things that seem little, like this advocacy that we did

01:58:06.771 --> 01:58:12.451
through MSJDN, I think actually have a really big impact on military families.

01:58:12.611 --> 01:58:16.731
And now a lot of states have done it for many professions beyond lawyers,

01:58:17.051 --> 01:58:20.571
which is a really exciting thing to see. Yeah.

01:58:21.831 --> 01:58:27.371
So your work with the Biden administration led to some benefits for military spouses.

01:58:27.951 --> 01:58:32.471
Do you have any inroads into the current administration? And if you do,

01:58:32.731 --> 01:58:34.351
what are you working with them on?

01:58:35.061 --> 01:58:39.101
Yeah, the current administration and I don't really talk.

01:58:40.821 --> 01:58:46.301
So I think I'm probably on a list, but not the list of folks that they want to talk to.

01:58:47.121 --> 01:58:52.361
But I continue to advocate, like I mentioned a little bit earlier,

01:58:53.001 --> 01:58:58.281
really helping military families understand how to use their voices.

01:58:58.381 --> 01:59:02.881
I do feel fortunate that I was able to, you know, we're talking about all these

01:59:02.881 --> 01:59:04.861
challenges with building a career.

01:59:05.061 --> 01:59:08.581
I was super lucky. I was able to land at the VA.

01:59:08.961 --> 01:59:12.041
I spent a year on the Hill in a Senate office.

01:59:12.521 --> 01:59:18.401
I spent time at the White House on Dr. Biden's team, worked a lot with the agencies.

01:59:18.401 --> 01:59:22.721
And so I want to put that knowledge and experience to use to help,

01:59:22.721 --> 01:59:26.801
you know, military families understand when policies come up like this,

01:59:26.901 --> 01:59:28.601
like the occupational licensing,

01:59:29.281 --> 01:59:35.301
you know, those things that are an administrative barrier, how can you change those?

01:59:36.161 --> 01:59:39.101
And as we're seeing now, I think it even goes beyond that.

01:59:39.281 --> 01:59:44.621
A lot of it is speaking out on things like the immigration enforcement and where

01:59:44.621 --> 01:59:48.821
there used to be protections in place for veterans and military families.

01:59:48.841 --> 01:59:53.581
We're no longer seeing those protections extended to this community.

01:59:53.881 --> 01:59:57.541
I mean, they're coming onto base and taking military family members.

01:59:57.541 --> 02:00:00.501
They're deporting veterans who served honorably.

02:00:01.367 --> 02:00:06.467
And so it's really troubling. And I think veteran and military family voices

02:00:06.467 --> 02:00:11.907
are incredibly powerful in this moment to say we love our country.

02:00:12.307 --> 02:00:13.987
We care about democracy.

02:00:14.427 --> 02:00:19.187
We were willing to make these sacrifices and move every two or three years and

02:00:19.187 --> 02:00:23.587
be away from our families and all of this because we care about building the

02:00:23.587 --> 02:00:25.467
best version of America possible.

02:00:25.847 --> 02:00:30.587
And so, yeah, I'm really proud of the work that that we do to help folks speak

02:00:30.587 --> 02:00:33.167
up on that. And that's interesting.

02:00:33.407 --> 02:00:42.747
So I know if you stay off base, you could be vulnerable for ICE or Border Patrol to show up at your house.

02:00:43.929 --> 02:00:49.929
You know, try to serve or detain you for immigration violations.

02:00:50.309 --> 02:00:53.549
But they can come on a military base and do that?

02:00:54.009 --> 02:00:57.949
Oh, I mean, it's all federal and they're working together.

02:00:58.349 --> 02:01:02.669
We saw a story, I think it was last year, where a spouse,

02:01:02.829 --> 02:01:08.149
they were moving to a new base and it got flagged in the process of getting

02:01:08.149 --> 02:01:12.089
the spouse access to that base where their housing was,

02:01:12.089 --> 02:01:15.549
that she wasn't here legally and

02:01:15.549 --> 02:01:18.449
so you know whoever it was at the base

02:01:18.449 --> 02:01:21.609
I guess flagged that to DHS and they detained her

02:01:21.609 --> 02:01:24.909
and there was a another story

02:01:24.909 --> 02:01:30.729
where a family I think it was Arizona had a mom one of the moms came to help

02:01:30.729 --> 02:01:36.529
because the spouse had just had surgery and it turned out again the mom you

02:01:36.529 --> 02:01:42.069
know didn't have all the right paperwork and and they came and detained her from the base.

02:01:42.309 --> 02:01:46.489
So, yeah, it's really troubling. I mean, we saw stories, again, beyond this community.

02:01:46.849 --> 02:01:53.069
They're looking at IRS data to try to track folks down, which I think is kind

02:01:53.069 --> 02:01:58.529
of ironic when, if you're looking at the IRS, their folks are clearly reporting their income.

02:01:59.269 --> 02:02:06.409
You know, and that's not how it was framed that they would be enforcing things.

02:02:06.649 --> 02:02:09.669
So, yeah, I think it's incredibly troubling there is no

02:02:09.669 --> 02:02:12.469
uh essentially there's no safe

02:02:12.469 --> 02:02:19.349
haven on a on a military base now yeah and this is just my brain going there

02:02:19.349 --> 02:02:24.189
but it just seemed like to me that would be a national security issue because

02:02:24.189 --> 02:02:29.669
it's like all right so i'm enlisted and i'm supposed to be fighting for a nation

02:02:29.669 --> 02:02:31.949
and that very nation takes away my spouse.

02:02:32.973 --> 02:02:37.953
Yeah, it's like if I'm a terrorist organization, I'm like, flag that guy, right? Flag that girl.

02:02:38.413 --> 02:02:41.653
You know what I'm saying? We can recruit them. You understand what I'm saying?

02:02:41.953 --> 02:02:47.733
I mean, it's just practical stuff, but that's going to lead us down to a whole

02:02:47.733 --> 02:02:50.033
different rabbit hole. So I don't want to do that.

02:02:50.873 --> 02:02:56.893
Well, if I can say quickly, too, I think it's a recruiting and retention issue, too.

02:02:57.313 --> 02:03:00.493
Right. So it's a national security risk in the way that you're saying it.

02:03:00.733 --> 02:03:03.053
But also, how do we continue recruiting?

02:03:04.013 --> 02:03:07.293
Recruiters have often used that saying, hey, come serve in the military.

02:03:07.293 --> 02:03:11.413
It can be a pathway to citizenship for you. But when folks see like,

02:03:11.493 --> 02:03:12.873
well, actually, no, it's not.

02:03:13.053 --> 02:03:17.633
They're snapping people up, you know, and maybe we can have a conversation about

02:03:17.633 --> 02:03:20.673
that's not what we should be using to recruit people anyway.

02:03:20.673 --> 02:03:26.493
It's kind of messed up that that's how we're, you know, luring people in.

02:03:26.913 --> 02:03:34.073
But yeah, I think there's huge ramifications for national security all around this. Yeah.

02:03:34.613 --> 02:03:40.593
Talk about the work with mission license. I assume that's a variation of what

02:03:40.593 --> 02:03:45.473
you do with the JD network and incorporates other professions.

02:03:45.673 --> 02:03:52.713
So I guess kind of list the different professions that may be impacted.

02:03:52.893 --> 02:03:58.833
I know medical would be one, but just kind of go over where people have a license.

02:03:59.683 --> 02:04:05.423
And, you know, that they may run into problems getting certified somewhere.

02:04:06.083 --> 02:04:09.503
Sure. Yeah, I'll say mission license is defunct now.

02:04:09.663 --> 02:04:14.183
My partner in crime went back into the government. But I do have a consulting,

02:04:14.483 --> 02:04:18.883
solo consulting biz where I do all the same work.

02:04:19.063 --> 02:04:20.543
But yeah, it's very widespread.

02:04:20.883 --> 02:04:23.983
It's so many things. folks who do hair

02:04:23.983 --> 02:04:27.023
in a lot of states even someone who blow just blow

02:04:27.023 --> 02:04:30.443
dries hair doesn't even cut or color they have

02:04:30.443 --> 02:04:34.083
to have a license as some jurisdictions florists

02:04:34.083 --> 02:04:37.143
if you're selling flowers you have to be you have

02:04:37.143 --> 02:04:44.383
to have a license um obviously you know like medical legal tree cutting you

02:04:44.383 --> 02:04:50.943
know manicurists and pedicurists it gets a wide wide range we see a lot of commercial

02:04:50.943 --> 02:04:54.563
licensing around truck drivers and that kind of thing.

02:04:54.783 --> 02:05:03.343
So I really didn't know much about it before I got involved with MSJDN and really

02:05:03.343 --> 02:05:06.783
felt the impact on, you know, personally.

02:05:07.183 --> 02:05:15.123
But then to dive in and see how broad this is and how much it impacts folks, it's such a wide range.

02:05:15.283 --> 02:05:20.403
And when you think about maybe you are successfully set up, you know,

02:05:20.483 --> 02:05:24.823
as a CPA or whatever it might be that requires that license.

02:05:24.823 --> 02:05:26.763
And it really is state specific.

02:05:27.003 --> 02:05:31.203
It depends state to state because they have the jurisdiction to do that.

02:05:31.403 --> 02:05:35.683
But then your parents get sick or you have to go back home for some reason.

02:05:35.923 --> 02:05:40.183
Well, how do you take your career with you? Sometimes it can be thousands of

02:05:40.183 --> 02:05:44.723
dollars and a year long process to navigate that. And so that's where the.

02:05:45.298 --> 02:05:49.518
You know, Mission License originally came in to say, hey, let us take our expertise.

02:05:49.578 --> 02:05:54.018
We've been there, done that ourselves so many times as military families.

02:05:54.318 --> 02:05:56.878
Let us help you navigate that as well.

02:05:57.398 --> 02:06:03.918
Is there anybody in Congress that's trying to address that issue to,

02:06:04.738 --> 02:06:08.838
you know, instead of an executive order, just make that the law of the land

02:06:08.838 --> 02:06:12.178
to kind of have some reciprocity for people, professional folks?

02:06:12.698 --> 02:06:17.898
Right. They did, actually. President Biden signed, I think it was 2023.

02:06:19.518 --> 02:06:25.018
Signed a law amending an existing law that dealt with service members,

02:06:25.338 --> 02:06:29.058
saying that for service members and their families,

02:06:29.498 --> 02:06:36.398
all of the states now have to offer some kind of recognition to be able to transfer

02:06:36.398 --> 02:06:39.298
a license, which I think is great.

02:06:39.298 --> 02:06:45.338
It is challenging because, again, it's a state issue, so it's hard for the federal government.

02:06:45.338 --> 02:06:49.918
Again, if we want to stick within the rule of law, you know,

02:06:50.018 --> 02:06:55.898
the federal government has limited ability to come in and tell the states what to do like that.

02:06:55.898 --> 02:06:59.998
But they could for service members and their families saying,

02:07:00.098 --> 02:07:05.338
you know, this is related to the national defense and those interests.

02:07:05.558 --> 02:07:10.378
I think some of the problem is, even though it says, yes, the state should be

02:07:10.378 --> 02:07:13.698
doing it, how they implement it is still another problem.

02:07:13.698 --> 02:07:17.798
And kind of what we were, you know, what I was just talking about is maybe the

02:07:17.798 --> 02:07:23.398
state offers reciprocity, but it's still really expensive and it takes a really long time.

02:07:23.918 --> 02:07:27.558
And again, especially for families who might be moving again in two or three

02:07:27.558 --> 02:07:29.618
years, if it takes a year to get that license.

02:07:31.101 --> 02:07:36.041
Not really that helpful. So the implementation is really important.

02:07:36.461 --> 02:07:40.581
And I would say that for anyone trying to pick up their life and move,

02:07:40.721 --> 02:07:44.921
you know, a year is a long time to wait to get something like that processed.

02:07:45.981 --> 02:07:51.341
Yeah. What do you want the average listener to understand about being a military spouse?

02:07:52.801 --> 02:08:02.301
I think so much of what folks don't understand is that daily the daily stressors

02:08:02.301 --> 02:08:03.541
that we're talking about.

02:08:03.861 --> 02:08:07.981
You know, military families are American working families.

02:08:08.141 --> 02:08:12.361
They're dealing with so much of the same thing that everyone else is.

02:08:12.761 --> 02:08:18.961
You know, high cost of living, obviously, you know, all the stress and scariness

02:08:18.961 --> 02:08:24.901
about what's happening in Iran, in Venezuela, you know, there's so much uncertainty.

02:08:25.561 --> 02:08:29.261
And I think, you know, understanding,

02:08:30.281 --> 02:08:35.401
that families don't always have a say in it, as much as we try to get folks

02:08:35.401 --> 02:08:42.341
to speak up, you know, and really push back on some of these harmful policies and practices.

02:08:42.661 --> 02:08:46.161
You know, for minority families who are told,

02:08:46.341 --> 02:08:52.221
hey, you need to go live in this state that maybe doesn't have the best history

02:08:52.221 --> 02:09:01.321
or, you know, doesn't have the best education system or is now openly hostile to LGBTQ kids, I mean,

02:09:01.621 --> 02:09:06.001
you know, and you don't have a choice, but to go and live there or to live separately

02:09:06.001 --> 02:09:08.741
from your service member while they finish their service,

02:09:09.081 --> 02:09:14.561
you know, just understanding the realities of this life when you're interacting

02:09:14.561 --> 02:09:18.101
with a military family, I think is really helpful.

02:09:19.321 --> 02:09:23.821
Okay. Finish this sentence. I have hope because...

02:09:25.377 --> 02:09:28.797
Oh, it's a tough, tough, tough sentence this week.

02:09:29.477 --> 02:09:37.657
But I do have hope. I think a lot about when we get the opportunity to rebuild the federal workforce.

02:09:38.057 --> 02:09:43.957
I am a believer in the ability of the government to do good when we have good

02:09:43.957 --> 02:09:47.957
people, good leaders, and the right funding.

02:09:47.957 --> 02:09:53.357
And so I, you know, in these unprecedented times,

02:09:53.597 --> 02:09:59.897
I think a lot about how we push forward and, you know, stay sharp and ready

02:09:59.897 --> 02:10:06.497
to rebuild and rebuild an America that works for us, for everybody.

02:10:07.137 --> 02:10:13.557
Yeah. Well, Elizabeth Jamison, I greatly, again, I greatly appreciate you coming on.

02:10:14.557 --> 02:10:21.477
Is there a way where people can get involved with MSJDN or reach out to you

02:10:21.477 --> 02:10:24.977
to get you to talk about some of these issues we kind of touched on?

02:10:25.637 --> 02:10:31.937
Absolutely. So folks can find wealth of information at the MSJDN website.

02:10:32.377 --> 02:10:39.597
It's msjdn.org. And there's a ton of information on licensing.

02:10:39.677 --> 02:10:43.217
There's a really great map where you can see all the progress that has been

02:10:43.217 --> 02:10:45.597
made over the past decade or so.

02:10:45.877 --> 02:10:50.137
And then I'm on LinkedIn. Folks can find me there, shoot me a message.

02:10:50.357 --> 02:10:52.297
I'm always happy to connect.

02:10:53.347 --> 02:10:59.027
Well, I know your friends call you Libby, and I've been trying to be more formal about that.

02:10:59.207 --> 02:11:03.907
But I thank you for coming on.

02:11:04.247 --> 02:11:09.167
And just as a rule, once you've been on, you have an open invitation to come back.

02:11:09.427 --> 02:11:12.947
So you don't even have to wait for me to ask you if there's something pressing,

02:11:13.467 --> 02:11:15.647
which just scratching the surface with you.

02:11:15.647 --> 02:11:22.407
There's a lot of issues that, you know, like we didn't get into the detail about

02:11:22.407 --> 02:11:24.707
the LGBTQ community and all that stuff.

02:11:24.887 --> 02:11:31.487
So I would love for you to come back and talk about some more things that,

02:11:31.487 --> 02:11:39.367
you know, deal with the experience that you advocate for as far as military families and so forth.

02:11:40.107 --> 02:11:45.087
But I do want to not only thank you for coming on, but I want to thank you for what you're doing.

02:11:46.167 --> 02:11:51.987
I think your advocacy is as important, if not more important,

02:11:52.347 --> 02:11:59.207
than the actual military service, because in order for that man or that woman

02:11:59.207 --> 02:12:04.207
to fully focus on that job, they've got to have some kind of reassurance.

02:12:04.207 --> 02:12:06.107
They've got to have some kind of support.

02:12:06.387 --> 02:12:08.707
And for a lot of them, that's their family.

02:12:09.607 --> 02:12:14.487
And to have somebody that's out there fighting for the military families,

02:12:14.507 --> 02:12:18.727
I think that's an incredible, incredible service to this nation.

02:12:18.927 --> 02:12:24.327
So I just thank you for doing that and taking the time out today to talk to

02:12:24.327 --> 02:12:26.907
us. Well, I appreciate that.

02:12:27.047 --> 02:12:32.607
And I appreciate the opportunity to really, you know, to elevate these issues

02:12:32.607 --> 02:12:38.707
and appreciate that you asked about, you know, what can folks know about this community?

02:12:38.967 --> 02:12:42.407
Because I do think there are so many myths and misconceptions.

02:12:42.967 --> 02:12:47.227
So, like I said, it's been a tough week for this community, but I appreciate

02:12:47.227 --> 02:12:50.627
the opportunity to come on and lift it up.

02:12:51.327 --> 02:12:53.747
Okay. All right, guys, we're going to catch all.

02:13:05.887 --> 02:13:13.327
All right, we're back, and I want to thank Kaivan Shroff, Louise Story,

02:13:13.827 --> 02:13:18.807
Ebony Reed, and Elizabeth Jamison for coming on the program.

02:13:19.647 --> 02:13:23.427
Kaivan, sharp as ever, honest as ever.

02:13:24.447 --> 02:13:33.007
You know, in between the time we've interviewed, he has risen as a voice that people want to hear.

02:13:33.007 --> 02:13:38.267
From the Democratic side about, you know, campaigns and strategies,

02:13:38.667 --> 02:13:43.427
party platforms, whatever, and just really the pulse of people of his generation.

02:13:43.927 --> 02:13:51.367
And look forward to continuing to hear good things about him and the work that

02:13:51.367 --> 02:13:53.927
he's doing to help Democrats get elected.

02:13:54.707 --> 02:14:00.127
For Louise Story and Ebony Reed, it was an honor to actually meet them.

02:14:02.507 --> 02:14:07.307
In person before interviewing them. Of course, we didn't have a whole lot of

02:14:07.307 --> 02:14:11.827
time because they were signing books and getting ready to have this big presentation,

02:14:12.527 --> 02:14:15.127
based off of their book, 15 cents on a dollar.

02:14:16.087 --> 02:14:21.247
And ever since I first heard about the book, I've been a big fan.

02:14:21.867 --> 02:14:27.307
And to actually be able to carve out some time from their busy schedules to

02:14:27.307 --> 02:14:31.747
sit down and talk to them was really, really an honor and a treat for me.

02:14:32.267 --> 02:14:37.867
And I thank them for doing that. And I thank them for putting in the work and

02:14:37.867 --> 02:14:39.647
continuing to put in the work.

02:14:41.607 --> 02:14:50.567
To raise awareness about the disparities in wealth, especially the racial wealth gap.

02:14:51.736 --> 02:14:58.016
If America's going to succeed, we got to stop the divisions.

02:14:59.256 --> 02:15:09.296
And, you know, the wealth gap is a division that really shouldn't exist in a country such as this.

02:15:09.416 --> 02:15:15.456
So I thank them for that. And then Elizabeth Jamison, her work dealing with

02:15:15.456 --> 02:15:20.476
military spouses and families and veterans themselves.

02:15:20.476 --> 02:15:27.996
I always try to get somebody on the podcast that addresses those issues.

02:15:28.496 --> 02:15:32.316
I think she's the first one that's really focused in on the family.

02:15:33.256 --> 02:15:38.116
You know, we've talked about veterans as a whole, but not the family,

02:15:38.516 --> 02:15:39.916
especially the spouses.

02:15:41.176 --> 02:15:46.296
People need to understand that when folks make that commitment to serve,

02:15:47.276 --> 02:15:52.416
right, But they're bringing other people into that service, whether it's their

02:15:52.416 --> 02:15:55.616
parents, their spouses, their children.

02:15:56.456 --> 02:16:02.796
Everybody's tied in. Everybody's connected. And I'm really, really honored to

02:16:02.796 --> 02:16:10.076
have somebody like her come on the podcast and talk about that side, the support side.

02:16:10.556 --> 02:16:16.316
Because no matter what we do in life, we've got to have a support system.

02:16:17.316 --> 02:16:23.176
Somebody has to be in your corner, right? It's hard being out here alone.

02:16:24.496 --> 02:16:29.936
And, you know, but, you know, you just can't have anybody, right?

02:16:31.216 --> 02:16:36.316
We've learned that lesson. You know, sometimes eagles got to fly.

02:16:36.596 --> 02:16:38.016
Well, eagles always fly solo.

02:16:38.976 --> 02:16:42.876
But, you know, sometimes you got to do things on your own, but...

02:16:44.777 --> 02:16:49.497
It's a luxury and a benefit to have a support system.

02:16:49.657 --> 02:16:53.477
And so I'm glad that Elizabeth was able to come on and talk about that.

02:16:55.077 --> 02:16:58.597
All right. So real quick, I just want to talk about the week that was,

02:16:58.777 --> 02:17:01.057
and I want to highlight two people to,

02:17:02.296 --> 02:17:06.976
you know, kind of symbolized, I mean, they were the stars of the week.

02:17:07.516 --> 02:17:09.556
Well, some of the stars anyway.

02:17:10.856 --> 02:17:13.736
But, you know, the week started off pretty hopeful.

02:17:15.196 --> 02:17:17.816
And then election day came in Texas.

02:17:19.456 --> 02:17:26.436
And U.S. Congresswoman Jasmine Clark, I mean, Crockett, Jasmine Crockett did

02:17:26.436 --> 02:17:29.816
not win the Democratic nomination.

02:17:30.876 --> 02:17:36.056
And as a black elected official who ran for the United States Senate,

02:17:36.336 --> 02:17:38.256
I know what it feels like.

02:17:38.656 --> 02:17:44.056
You know, you do everything you possibly can do.

02:17:44.516 --> 02:17:48.896
You do the interviews, you do the speeches, you do the rallies,

02:17:49.216 --> 02:17:54.236
you shake the hands, you crank out the literature, you attend the meetings.

02:17:56.256 --> 02:18:00.576
You do all the politics you can't do, the TV commercial, all that stuff.

02:18:00.876 --> 02:18:05.736
You do everything you can afford to do, everything physically you can do.

02:18:07.676 --> 02:18:10.976
And to not achieve that goal, that hurts.

02:18:11.556 --> 02:18:17.736
And I know that she, you know, put everything she had into it.

02:18:17.736 --> 02:18:25.356
And you could tell as the hours were getting late and then all the shenanigans

02:18:25.356 --> 02:18:29.856
that was happening in her home county, right?

02:18:31.536 --> 02:18:34.396
They were, the Republicans were afraid of her.

02:18:35.896 --> 02:18:40.636
They think they can handle Tallarico. Now, they might be wrong,

02:18:40.676 --> 02:18:43.616
but they were afraid of her.

02:18:43.616 --> 02:18:49.956
And to go as far as say, well, everywhere else in the state,

02:18:50.976 --> 02:18:58.216
people could go to, like, the early voting. They could go to a designated spot.

02:18:59.415 --> 02:19:03.195
And vote. They didn't have to go to their precinct, right?

02:19:04.295 --> 02:19:10.455
They could just go to any designated spot in their county and vote.

02:19:11.895 --> 02:19:16.455
Only two counties out of 200 and something counties in Texas decided,

02:19:16.755 --> 02:19:19.795
well, we're not going to do what we've been doing for the last 10 years.

02:19:21.255 --> 02:19:27.355
One was Williamson County, and one was Dallas County.

02:19:28.155 --> 02:19:34.215
And Dallas County was a big county. That's where the city of Dallas is.

02:19:35.055 --> 02:19:37.995
But more importantly, that's where Jasmine Crockett represents.

02:19:39.439 --> 02:19:45.899
And to basically freeze out voters, you know, and then, of course,

02:19:45.999 --> 02:19:49.639
Ken Paxson, he's running for the U.S.

02:19:49.679 --> 02:19:54.439
Senate on the Republican side, but then he's meddling in the Democratic primary

02:19:54.439 --> 02:20:00.119
because once the courts had extended the voting hours in Dallas County because of the confusion,

02:20:01.039 --> 02:20:06.079
Paxson used his position as attorney general to go to the Supreme Court in Texas

02:20:06.079 --> 02:20:12.079
and get that judge's ruling overturned and those ballots frozen.

02:20:12.659 --> 02:20:21.059
Now, of the people that voted, you know, obviously it couldn't make up the difference

02:20:21.059 --> 02:20:23.999
what Tallarico had gathered statewide.

02:20:23.999 --> 02:20:29.879
But how many people didn't vote at all because of the confusion?

02:20:30.679 --> 02:20:34.299
And would that have made the difference for Jasmine?

02:20:36.959 --> 02:20:44.879
So that's a tough way to lose. And knowing, and there was nothing you could do about it.

02:20:45.119 --> 02:20:49.219
You filed a lawsuit, you did what you could do, you got the ruling you wanted,

02:20:49.219 --> 02:20:51.959
and then you get it overturned.

02:20:52.039 --> 02:20:59.099
And this was all within one day, election day, in the midst of all of the voting,

02:20:59.399 --> 02:21:02.839
last-minute cheerleading, and all that stuff.

02:21:03.559 --> 02:21:11.139
So I know it hurt, but it's politics. It's a 50-50 proposition when you walk in.

02:21:12.679 --> 02:21:16.599
Jasmine was professional enough to understand that,

02:21:16.779 --> 02:21:23.499
and like the next morning, she was calling James Tallarico and congratulating

02:21:23.499 --> 02:21:28.719
him and on a plane to D.C. to go to work.

02:21:30.060 --> 02:21:37.040
And then she gets to work and she's got to attend a hearing and she's got to

02:21:37.040 --> 02:21:42.880
interrogate Kristi Noem, who had a very interesting week herself.

02:21:43.600 --> 02:21:47.460
And it was because of her and her colleagues,

02:21:48.460 --> 02:21:52.680
Democrat and Republican, the way that they grilled Kristi Noem,

02:21:53.320 --> 02:21:58.800
Donald Trump finally had to get a scalp.

02:21:58.800 --> 02:22:04.020
So in the first administration, President Trump was firing people left and right

02:22:04.020 --> 02:22:10.880
once he got started, because there were a lot of people that were there telling him no first time.

02:22:11.620 --> 02:22:14.280
So he was getting rid of those people.

02:22:16.700 --> 02:22:21.220
But this time around, a lot of people felt he wouldn't do that because he was

02:22:21.220 --> 02:22:22.760
getting all his yes people in.

02:22:25.160 --> 02:22:33.080
But when you start finding out about extramarital affairs and spending money

02:22:33.080 --> 02:22:38.180
on commercials that look like you're running for president instead of,

02:22:38.380 --> 02:22:41.300
you know, you just being the secretary of Homeland Security,

02:22:42.480 --> 02:22:44.740
you know, hooking up your.

02:22:45.880 --> 02:22:52.240
Here's the crazy thing, right? You hook up your brother-in-law with 140 some million dollars.

02:22:52.760 --> 02:22:55.260
And then you cheat on your husband.

02:22:56.561 --> 02:22:57.661
How crazy is that?

02:23:00.261 --> 02:23:08.961
I haven't heard anybody on any of the news stations or wherever just make that correlation.

02:23:09.681 --> 02:23:13.921
You cheat on your husband, but then you give your brother-in-law $140 million.

02:23:19.521 --> 02:23:25.681
You know, in a normal world, she would have to go, right? It should have been a surprise.

02:23:26.241 --> 02:23:28.301
It's been like, oh, yeah, you got to go.

02:23:29.941 --> 02:23:34.301
And, you know, President Trump agreed. Now, he gave her some gig,

02:23:34.861 --> 02:23:41.061
Special Envoy to the Shield of the Americas, which I think is only happening this week.

02:23:42.161 --> 02:23:46.561
So, you know, it is what it is.

02:23:46.641 --> 02:23:51.561
But she's not the Homeland Security director anymore. And we haven't even got

02:23:51.561 --> 02:23:56.041
into the FEMA mismanagement. We haven't even gotten to the deaths of Renee Good

02:23:56.041 --> 02:24:00.981
and Alex Preddy through ICE and Border Patrol.

02:24:02.441 --> 02:24:08.961
But those seem to be the two things that took it over the edge to say, yeah, we got to cut that.

02:24:09.821 --> 02:24:15.141
And then, you know, now we're going to have another Pam Bondi hearing.

02:24:16.021 --> 02:24:19.181
This time is with the Oversight Committee instead of the Judiciary.

02:24:19.181 --> 02:24:21.221
So we'll see how that goes.

02:24:22.421 --> 02:24:27.341
And Jasmine Crockett will be I think at that hearing as well.

02:24:29.295 --> 02:24:36.415
We'll see if Pam survives her hearing now that it's known that people are going

02:24:36.415 --> 02:24:40.035
to lose jobs in this midterm election year.

02:24:40.955 --> 02:24:44.375
So I was kind of happy about that.

02:24:45.195 --> 02:24:52.775
That, you know, whatever his motivation was, the public perception is there's accountability.

02:24:53.835 --> 02:24:59.155
And there's hope that it's like, okay, you know, now the guy that's supposed

02:24:59.155 --> 02:25:06.855
to be replacing Christie Dome, I mean, his name is Mark Wayne Mullet, is what it is, man.

02:25:07.015 --> 02:25:10.715
I mean, you know, this is the guy that wanted to fight the president of the

02:25:10.715 --> 02:25:14.415
Teamsters in the Capitol building at a hearing.

02:25:15.335 --> 02:25:22.675
Gets in front of the secretary of education, and I don't know if his staff person did that deliberately,

02:25:23.155 --> 02:25:27.835
or that's just the way he talked, but it sounded like he didn't have a command

02:25:27.835 --> 02:25:30.775
of the English language talking to the Secretary of Education.

02:25:34.415 --> 02:25:38.515
He's fought in the ring, but I don't know if he's, I don't know.

02:25:38.675 --> 02:25:43.975
I've never really tried to understand his background because to me he's just

02:25:43.975 --> 02:25:50.355
another one of these guys that drank the Kool-Aid and convinced people to send

02:25:50.355 --> 02:25:51.515
him to the United States Senate.

02:25:51.515 --> 02:25:56.875
And I guess that's the other pain I have with Jasmine Crockett.

02:25:57.015 --> 02:26:04.355
It's like, you know, this guy can get in the United States Senate, but she can't, right?

02:26:05.795 --> 02:26:08.915
Mullen's from Oklahoma, and she's from Texas. And it's like,

02:26:08.975 --> 02:26:11.955
well, those are two different states, Eric. Yeah, same mindset,

02:26:11.955 --> 02:26:13.195
same region of the country.

02:26:14.055 --> 02:26:19.195
You can argue that Texas is, somebody said they were four states in one as far

02:26:19.195 --> 02:26:22.935
as like, you know, makeup and all that kind of stuff.

02:26:24.523 --> 02:26:29.003
But, again, it just kind of hurts, again, for that.

02:26:29.203 --> 02:26:35.863
But you just look at those people. I know I do.

02:26:37.123 --> 02:26:42.823
And the way that things turned out, I probably would have been gone by the time

02:26:42.823 --> 02:26:49.143
all these people got in, either on my own volition or on the voters if I had won.

02:26:49.143 --> 02:26:54.963
But, you know, because I figured if I had got one term in the Senate in Mississippi,

02:26:55.123 --> 02:26:58.243
then I'd be playing with fire to run for re-election.

02:26:58.463 --> 02:27:02.043
But, you know, we've done it till, let's see, 2008.

02:27:04.243 --> 02:27:10.823
Yeah, I've been gone. 12 years from that, I've been 2020, I've been through with that.

02:27:13.540 --> 02:27:19.520
I would have been there during Biden's, well, no, during Trump's first administration.

02:27:20.620 --> 02:27:25.720
So anyway, I mean, it's just, you know, if I had pulled that off.

02:27:27.300 --> 02:27:32.320
But this is not about my pain. It's about, well, it kind of is.

02:27:33.540 --> 02:27:37.360
But, you know, I just understand, right?

02:27:37.360 --> 02:27:43.900
And even with Chrissy Noem being fired, still doesn't bring back Renee Goods,

02:27:43.960 --> 02:27:50.080
still doesn't bring back Alex Pretty, but at least it's like that was some form of justice.

02:27:51.000 --> 02:27:58.000
And now we're going to see how smooth Mullen's confirmation will be, right?

02:28:00.380 --> 02:28:04.700
And I guess it's better if he's going to make the changes, it's better for the

02:28:04.700 --> 02:28:08.420
president to do it now than try to see how these midterms are going to go.

02:28:08.540 --> 02:28:11.720
Because right now it's looking like it's a wrap.

02:28:11.900 --> 02:28:18.300
Even here in Georgia, it looks like Sean Harris, the lone credible Democrat

02:28:18.300 --> 02:28:23.820
running in Marjorie Taylor Greene's district 14, I believe, Georgia 14.

02:28:25.180 --> 02:28:31.520
I think he's going to serve in Congress. And, you know, even if it's just a

02:28:31.520 --> 02:28:34.380
special election, I think he's going to get his chance.

02:28:35.860 --> 02:28:40.440
And, you know, it just seems like it's just going to be a huge deal.

02:28:41.100 --> 02:28:46.920
And I respect Kaivon and what he's saying, and he's being cautiously optimistic.

02:28:47.820 --> 02:28:53.180
I'm not. I think this is going to be a big deal.

02:28:53.180 --> 02:28:58.720
Well, now the two things that's going to happen that we have to watch out for

02:28:58.720 --> 02:29:05.280
is when the Democrats take over the House, will Akeem Jeffries be the speaker?

02:29:05.800 --> 02:29:11.000
When he first got elected minority leader, it looked like that was a lock.

02:29:12.506 --> 02:29:20.026
Now, I'm not so sure about that. And it's really going to depend on the Democrats that get elected.

02:29:20.906 --> 02:29:30.006
Because, you know, I don't think the new crop of Democrats are feeling Mr. Jeffries.

02:29:30.526 --> 02:29:33.986
Which would be a shame, because we could have had a black speaker.

02:29:34.266 --> 02:29:37.546
But sometimes we mess our own things up.

02:29:38.386 --> 02:29:41.726
And again from my experience of being an elected official,

02:29:42.966 --> 02:29:49.626
and not being as mature as I should have you know I think you know you want

02:29:49.626 --> 02:29:53.266
to take some things back or you wish you could have done something else better

02:29:53.266 --> 02:29:54.966
or whatever the case may be but.

02:29:56.887 --> 02:30:02.767
Yeah, the way he's handled that leadership position and, you know,

02:30:03.027 --> 02:30:07.407
the dynamics should have been a coordination.

02:30:07.967 --> 02:30:11.827
Now it's going to be a fight. So that's the first thing we're going to watch.

02:30:11.927 --> 02:30:20.827
And then the other thing is how they handle the oversight of Trump's remaining two years in office.

02:30:21.627 --> 02:30:25.567
They're going to pass a lot of bills that he vetoes.

02:30:26.347 --> 02:30:30.347
Are they going to try to impeach everybody? Are they just going to try to impeach him?

02:30:31.407 --> 02:30:35.667
You know, they're going for blood once they get in there.

02:30:36.007 --> 02:30:42.187
But how they handle it, right? And especially, it's going to be based on how the Senate goes.

02:30:42.187 --> 02:30:46.567
Because if they get control of the Senate, yeah, they're going for blood.

02:30:46.567 --> 02:30:51.727
But if they don't get control of the Senate, then it's going to be interesting

02:30:51.727 --> 02:30:55.967
to see how they act as an opposition party.

02:30:56.867 --> 02:31:03.167
So I'm just going to watch all this stuff. But, you know, this week is indicative

02:31:03.167 --> 02:31:06.567
of the highs and lows of politics.

02:31:07.267 --> 02:31:10.307
And it depends on what side of the aisle you're on.

02:31:11.087 --> 02:31:14.727
This was either a pretty good week for you or a pretty bad week for you or kind

02:31:14.727 --> 02:31:17.287
of a little bit of both. Right.

02:31:17.867 --> 02:31:21.087
But that's just the nature of of politics.

02:31:22.007 --> 02:31:26.407
So another thing I always you know, I want to hear y'all's thoughts.

02:31:26.907 --> 02:31:33.167
I don't do like call in because this is recorded, but we do have the website

02:31:33.167 --> 02:31:37.467
and you can leave comments there, reviews, whatever.

02:31:37.687 --> 02:31:41.127
But you can respond to what I'm saying. OK.

02:31:42.196 --> 02:31:45.516
If you agree with it, cool. If you don't agree with it, cool.

02:31:47.156 --> 02:31:51.816
But if you want to respond, you can. I welcome it.

02:31:52.856 --> 02:31:57.016
But in the meantime, I'm just going to keep plodding along and doing what I

02:31:57.016 --> 02:32:01.536
need to do and just give you my thoughts about what's happening and hopefully

02:32:01.536 --> 02:32:08.576
educate you on some things and expose you to some people that are really doing the work.

02:32:09.676 --> 02:32:16.276
But I pray that And based off of what I saw this week,

02:32:16.636 --> 02:32:23.616
that I pray that you understand that this thing can work, no matter how crazy

02:32:23.616 --> 02:32:26.476
it sounds, no matter how dire it may feel.

02:32:27.096 --> 02:32:32.216
This can work. We just got to get the right people in.

02:32:32.976 --> 02:32:42.076
And I pray that because James Tallarico is a man of faith and he's very, very open with that.

02:32:42.196 --> 02:32:46.756
That that might be a sign. No matter how I felt about Jasmine losing,

02:32:47.856 --> 02:32:52.996
maybe that's a sign that things are going to be all right. We'll see.

02:32:54.236 --> 02:32:59.076
But I just want y'all to understand this thing is going to work.

02:33:00.016 --> 02:33:04.016
And the cool thing is we can make it work.

02:33:04.816 --> 02:33:08.196
You, the average voter, can make this work.

02:33:10.056 --> 02:33:15.936
So let's continue to do what we need to do stay focused on what the mission

02:33:15.936 --> 02:33:24.496
is and we'll make it we'll make it alright that's all I got thank y'all for listening until next.