Martyrs, Anti-Racism & Health Equity Featuring Gloria J. Browne-Marshall, Hon. Betsy Hodges and Cecelia Thomas

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

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If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.

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Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak

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truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.

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Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you

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listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.

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Third, go to the website, momenterik.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,

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leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment. With Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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So, you know, I noticed something, and, you know, it's just a little minor thing, but,

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you know, when I do my intros, a lot of times I just do kind of like a tease

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kind of deal, where I just talk about, I might have a guest that's going to

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talk about this or that or whatever.

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But it just dawned on me, it's like when I'm promoting the podcast,

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you already know who these people are, right? At least you know their names.

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And so it kind of doesn't make sense for me to do a tease.

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I guess you don't know which person is going to talk about which subject in that sense.

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But the one thing I don't want to do on this, on this podcast is insult anybody's intelligence.

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My goal is to elevate everybody's intelligence and get them to meet people who

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are doing the work that may not get the national headlines and all that stuff.

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And every now and then we're fortunate enough to get some people who you may

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have seen on CNN or MSNOW or,

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you know, whatever and or even

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Fox right and you

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know so it doesn't make sense for me to to do the quote unquote tease when I'm

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already advertising and letting people know who's going to be on the show from

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Jump Street so starting this episode and really kick in you know because season 14 is coming.

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As you know, my season is not based on anything chronological or seasonal.

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My seasons are based on volume of episodes. So each season is based on volume

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of episodes. So each season,

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Although I've looked back, it hasn't exactly matched up, but lately I've tried

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to make sure that each season has 25 episodes.

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So when you go to www.momenterik.com, you'll see that.

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If you're trying to find something in season 10, you can go on the website under

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episodes and it'll break it down by seasons and, you know, or just,

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you can just scroll through the episodes thing.

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So I'm just going to do something different Let's go around from this point

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forward And just let you know the people that are going to be on And what they're

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going to talk about And let you peruse at your leisure, right?

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So on this episode, I have Professor Gloria J.

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Browne-Marshall She's coming back onto the podcast and she's going to be talking

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about the inaugural Martyrs Day that she is promoting.

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I'm going to have the former mayor of Minneapolis, Minnesota,

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Betsy Hodges, and she's going to talk about her experiences in public service

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and her current work as a DEI consultant.

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And then we're going to have Cecelia Thomas come on.

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She is the chief policy and advocacy officer for NMAC. And so she's going to

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share information on the work that her organization is doing.

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So these conversations are very good and it should be very informative to y'all listening.

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If y'all want to support the podcast, please, again, go to www.momenterik.com and do that.

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You know, whatever degree you want to do it. If you just like listening, great.

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If you want to subscribe, you can do that through that website.

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If you want to just make a donation, you can do that through the website. Whatever you want to do.

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Like I mentioned, this is award season for podcasting.

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I only submit my podcast to one, and that's the Black Podcast Association.

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The Black Podcasting Awards, I'm sorry, there's two different groups.

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There's a black podcasters association and

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then there's a black podcasting award and so i only submit to them and so you

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know i've i've put my my podcast on for a couple of categories this year and

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i usually try to do at least two and that's my way of supporting the organization whether i win or not,

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or get nominated even or not.

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I support the Black Podcasters, Black Podcasting Association,

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I mean, Black Podcasting Awards, slow down, Erik.

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To support our own, right?

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This is one of those for us, by us kind of things.

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So please give them a support, shout out. They're always looking for sponsors.

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And, you know, they've awarded, God, they've been doing this,

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I think they started like a year after I started podcasting.

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So it's really, really becoming a big event.

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They're actually having live award shows now.

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It had been because of COVID strictly on streaming on the Zoom,

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but now they're actually having live events.

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So that costs money to do that. So support them.

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Since I mentioned the Black Podcasters Association, you can also support them

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as well, because that's the group where we're all in to, you know, build each other up.

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And those two groups, not only...

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You know, give us a community, but they also offer support.

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So if you're interested in podcasting, I would hook up with either one of those

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organizations because even though it seems like it's a bunch of us out there,

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I think black podcasters make up no more than 2% of all the podcasts that are out there.

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So if you feel like, oh man, well, you know, my voice will get lost.

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And I, you know, if you're in it for the money, do what you need to do to learn

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how to do it for the money.

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But if you want to be like me and just do it to be of service to people,

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of course, again, I do ask for subscriptions and donations.

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But the reality is, is that I do it for my therapy.

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And hopefully it's therapeutic and educational for y'all that are listening.

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So just wanted to say all that and kind of set everything up.

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So now it is time to kick off the podcast.

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And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Thanks, Erik. A federal judge temporarily blocked the Trump administration from

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creating, operating, or paying claims through a new $1.776 billion anti-weaponization fund.

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A gunman was killed by Secret Service police after he opened fire at a White

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House checkpoint, injuring a bystander in the incident.

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A federal judicial panel blocked Alabama's Republican-backed congressional map

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for the 2026 elections, ruling that it intentionally discriminated against Black voters.

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Several South Carolina Republican state senators broke party lines to block

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a new map designed to dismantle the U.S.

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House District of Black Democratic Congressman James Clyburn.

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A federal judge declined to halt President Trump's executive order on election rules.

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Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton defeated U.S.

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Senator John Cornyn in a Republican primary runoff.

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In a controversial Texas Democratic primary runoff, Representative Christian

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Menifee defeated Representative Al Green in a redrawn Houston congressional district.

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Pope Leo issued the Catholic Church's most explicit apology to date for its

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historic role in legitimizing, participating in, and delaying the condemnation of slavery. A U.S.

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Judge dismissed an indictment against Salvadoran migrant Kilmar Abrego,

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ruling that the Trump administration vindictively prosecuted him after he successfully

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sued to reverse his illegal deportation.

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The CDC expanded enhanced Ebola screening for travelers returning from the DRC,

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Uganda, or South Sudan to include Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson International

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Airport alongside Washington's Dulles International Airport.

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A federal judge dismissed a Department of Justice lawsuit against Boston,

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ruling that the federal government lacked legal grounds to challenge the City's

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Sanctuary Jurisdiction Ordinance. The U.S.

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Supreme Court ruled 5-4 in favor of a black death row inmate in Mississippi,

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finding that the state courts failed to evaluate claims of racial discrimination.

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And civil rights lawyer Clarence B. Jones died at the age of 95.

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I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for my guest, Gloria J.

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Browne-Marshall. Gloria J. Browne-Marshall is a professor of constitutional law

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at John Jay College, an award-winning writer, a playwright, and a legal commentator.

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She has litigated cases for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, Southern Poverty Law

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Center, and Community Legal Services.

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Her previous works include She Took Justice, The Black Woman,

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Law, and Power, and The Voting Rights War.

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A frequent commentator on CNN, NPR, and MSNBC,

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Brown Marshall has received numerous accolades, including the 2024 American

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Bar Association Sybil Gabel Award and an Emmy Award as a writer and host of

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Your Democracy, an animated series about the U.S.

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Constitution. Her latest book is A Protest History of the United States,

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and she is making her second appearance on A Moment with Erik Fleming.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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again on this podcast, Gloria J. Browne-Marshall.

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All right. Dr. Gloria J.

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Browne-Marshall. Well, I should say professor. You're a doctor in law,

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so I guess that'll work. How are you doing?

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I'm doing well. Well, I'm actually a full professor at John Jay College,

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and I teach constitutional law, racial law, and evidence there.

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It's one of the few colleges that actually has a law department,

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so it's really a fascinating place to be.

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Yeah, yeah. Well, it's good to have you back on.

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And you were telling me about this project that you were excited about.

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And so we're going to talk about that on this interview.

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But as always, you know, I always want you to respond to a quote.

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So the quote I want you to respond to is, if you're not outraged,

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you're not paying attention.

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What does that quote mean to you? Well, Heather Heyer said it,

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and it's actually on our website, martyrsday.us.

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And what it means to me is that there are so many things that are taking place, even in an average time.

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This is an abnormal time. And so if you're not paying attention to the rights

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being taken away, the rulings of the U.S.

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Supreme Court, the way that our democracy is being undermined.

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And if you haven't been paying attention to all of that, then maybe you wouldn't be outraged.

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But if you are paying attention, you should be outraged. Yeah.

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All right. So what is Martyrs Day and why is it important?

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Well, you began with a quote by Heather Heyer. Heather Heyer was a protester

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who was protesting peacefully when a white supremacist decided to run a car

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into the group of protesters.

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And Heather Heyer was part of an anti-hate protest march in Charlottesville, Virginia.

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There were hundreds of men carrying torches walking across the University of

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Virginia's Charlottesville campus, chanting, the Jews will not replace us.

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The Jews will not replace us. That's why I always find it fascinating that this

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administration has decided to pretend that it's the supporter of people who are Jewish,

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and so much advocates against anti-Semitism.

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And I'm just stunned because Heather Heyer died protecting rights of people,

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standing up for rights of people.

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And, you know, she's gone. And I had a chance in my book tour for my book,

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A Protest History of the United States, which brought me to your show the first

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time, to go to Charlottesville for the Virginia Book Festival.

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And I see her name on the placards. I see her name on street signs.

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I see the memorial for her.

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But people don't even remember who she is because protesters,

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activists, and others die in this country.

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And, you know, it's like it didn't happen.

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We have Memorial Day and Veterans Day, which is great because we're giving homage

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to those people who signed up to fight and fought foreign powers to protect this nation.

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But this nation moves forward in social justice, in the rights that we have,

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the protections we have, the interpretations of the U.S.

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Constitution that were meant primarily for rich people and corporations and

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the state and federal government.

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Protesters and activists put the conscience in the Constitution,

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and that's rarely recognized.

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And the ultimate price they paid was the taking of their lives.

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And so I wanted.

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Throughout this tour for Protest History of the United States to do more.

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And I thought, well, maybe if I talked about these people more,

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maybe if these activists who were slain, maybe if I discussed the power of activism more.

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But I felt there was something else I had to do, and it came to me. I needed to have a day.

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And I thought about it before over the years, but I said, I'm going to do it

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this year because of the 250th anniversary of this country. and the Declaration

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of Independence being a protest document, we need to recognize the,

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the losses that we've had of protesters who are standing up for the rights we

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take for granted every day.

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So Martyrs' Day, they're a Martyrs' Day in other countries.

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So I said, why not have a Martyrs' Day in this country?

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And then we can recognize the protesters and activists of any era in American

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history who have been slain or whose untimely deaths led to social justice movement,

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such as George Floyd and Emmett Till.

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They weren't protesting when they were killed, but their deaths for Emmett Till

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led to Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat.

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You know, George Floyd's death led to changes in criminal justice legislation,

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led to the passage of the Emmett Till Anti-Lynching Act.

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So when we start thinking about what protesters have done, it's like we take

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for granted that these rights we have and protections just appeared like Santa Claus did it.

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Santa Claus and the tooth fairy got together and gave us these rights and protections,

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but actually protesters have been doing this throughout the arc of this country's

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history, so why not this year on the 250th anniversary add Martyrs Day on July 5th?

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The day after our Independence Day, the day after the barbecues and the picnics

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and the celebrations and the fireworks,

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Let's then take a moment to think of the protesters who also made what we have

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to in this country possible So since you brought up July the 5th,

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why why did you pick that day?

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Was it just because it's after independence day?

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It actually came from someone who is on the inaugural Martyr's Day Committee,

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Vincent DeForest, who was on the committee for the Bicentennial.

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And he said, you know, what day are we going to do this?

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And I thought, okay, now we have the whole calendar. We have certain dates that

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are, of course, important here and there.

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And he said, but on July 5th, Frederick Douglass asked the same question you're

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asking now. when he wrote his speech, What to the Slave is the Fourth of July in 1852.

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He's asking, country, you believe in all these rights,

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You believe in freedom, and yet you have enslaved people here,

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because 1852 means that slavery was in full effect in the United States.

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People were being bought and sold, families just torn to pieces,

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people worked to death, women assaulted, all these things, horrendous things

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were going on, and yet people were having their celebrations on July 4th.

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So on July 5th in upstate New York, in Rochester, he gave that famous speech,

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What to the Slave of the Fourth of July, and asking the question,

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how can you celebrate freedom when you have people in bondage?

00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:15.979
And slavery didn't end until 1865. So then the question becomes,

00:20:16.159 --> 00:20:20.179
how can we celebrate, continue to celebrate freedom in this country without

00:20:20.179 --> 00:20:24.699
recognizing the people who lost their lives to have us gain that freedom?

00:20:24.699 --> 00:20:30.059
Not just those who were in foreign wars, but those who are right here.

00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:33.559
Regular people who woke up one day to go to the grocery store,

00:20:33.959 --> 00:20:37.819
woke up one day to say, I'm going to protest, who are now dead,

00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:41.859
decided to go vote that day in 1965.

00:20:42.379 --> 00:20:46.279
1966, and were slaughtered because they wanted to register to vote.

00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:49.799
So there's so much that, you know, protesters have done.

00:20:49.859 --> 00:20:55.559
And I just believe that their work helped make this country great as well as

00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:56.639
the work of other people.

00:20:56.779 --> 00:21:02.519
And there needs to be a time in which we annually pay homage to them as well.

00:21:02.659 --> 00:21:06.359
And so that's why July 5th becomes the day. And it works out very well,

00:21:06.379 --> 00:21:10.539
too, because we're talking about liberty and freedoms on the 4th of July.

00:21:10.719 --> 00:21:15.299
We're talking about independence. And so we need to realize that the words of

00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:18.239
the Constitution, I teach constitutional law, the words are there.

00:21:18.419 --> 00:21:21.099
The words on paper will not make it reality.

00:21:21.659 --> 00:21:25.579
Human beings had to make freedom of speech a reality.

00:21:25.859 --> 00:21:29.739
Human beings had to make equal protection a reality. Just because you write

00:21:29.739 --> 00:21:32.639
a law doesn't mean that law is going to automatically be applied.

00:21:33.019 --> 00:21:37.299
People still have to be in the mix, still have to make our democracy work,

00:21:37.439 --> 00:21:40.479
still have to push forward to say that.

00:21:41.100 --> 00:21:44.120
You know, whether or not it's labor. We have, you know, if you look on the website,

00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:51.880
martyrsday.us and martyrsday.us, M-A-R-T-Y-R-S, day, martyrsday.us,

00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:59.260
you'll see we have just a diverse symbol of people who've been slain in this

00:21:59.260 --> 00:22:07.020
country for doing something as simple as picketing or wanting to get better wages on their jobs.

00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:10.480
So since we have an arc of time, we start off.

00:22:11.100 --> 00:22:17.540
Christmas addicts in the 1700s and go over time where we have people,

00:22:17.700 --> 00:22:18.700
Harry and Harriet Moore,

00:22:18.940 --> 00:22:24.380
were blown up in their homes on Christmas Day just in Florida,

00:22:24.560 --> 00:22:28.200
Mims, Florida, just because they were registering people to vote.

00:22:28.900 --> 00:22:32.740
We can't just forget these people, and I think too many of us want to forget them.

00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:38.900
And so on the website, you'll see there are a diverse number of people by gender,

00:22:39.280 --> 00:22:41.620
by background, by social justice issues.

00:22:42.300 --> 00:22:48.740
1934, we had two longshoremen who were gunned down because they were in a strike for better wages.

00:22:49.040 --> 00:22:53.120
There are many ways in which people have protested and those different issues

00:22:53.120 --> 00:22:54.780
are represented on the website.

00:22:54.980 --> 00:23:00.220
So I just thought it was important that we see just how many people have died.

00:23:00.340 --> 00:23:01.660
This is just a small sample.

00:23:01.840 --> 00:23:05.220
There are hundreds, and actually, I believe thousands more.

00:23:05.580 --> 00:23:10.540
And so this is going to be an annual event, not just for the people we selected

00:23:10.540 --> 00:23:15.400
for this cohort of martyrs, but each year we're going to have a different group.

00:23:15.860 --> 00:23:19.740
Well, you answered one of my questions before I even asked it,

00:23:19.800 --> 00:23:23.980
because I was wondering if you were just doing this for the 250th anniversary

00:23:23.980 --> 00:23:29.240
of the nation, or this is going to be a perpetual thing that you plan on doing.

00:23:30.060 --> 00:23:35.480
And that's great. That's great that you're going to keep it going. And you also mentioned,

00:23:36.833 --> 00:23:42.233
the list of martyrs that you have on the website, and it ranges from Crispus Addicts to Renee Good.

00:23:42.413 --> 00:23:47.033
So the question I have to ask you is, there's really two questions based on this.

00:23:47.133 --> 00:23:51.013
It's like, one, what is the commonality between those individuals?

00:23:53.453 --> 00:23:57.573
The push toward positive social change.

00:23:58.333 --> 00:24:03.133
So that's at the core of this, positive social change. Crispus Attucks,

00:24:03.153 --> 00:24:07.633
people may not even have known, was an enslaved person who was one of the first

00:24:07.633 --> 00:24:10.373
people to die for the independence of this nation.

00:24:10.813 --> 00:24:17.473
He was shot dead, you know, fighting in the very early stages of this nation's

00:24:17.473 --> 00:24:18.593
effort for independence.

00:24:19.733 --> 00:24:25.133
Renee Good, as people know, was protesting and she was actually in her car.

00:24:25.373 --> 00:24:28.593
She had come from a protest. She was in her car at the time,

00:24:28.693 --> 00:24:32.213
and when her life was taken by gunshot,

00:24:32.573 --> 00:24:41.493
when she had been protesting the denial of certain rights by immigrants in the

00:24:41.493 --> 00:24:44.613
country, some of whom could have been undocumented.

00:24:44.933 --> 00:24:50.433
But it was also the question of, were the ICE officials actually carrying the

00:24:50.433 --> 00:24:55.033
warrants they were supposed to have? And the protesters were trying to find

00:24:55.033 --> 00:24:59.733
out, did they have warrants to take people, or you're just taking people by force because you can.

00:24:59.973 --> 00:25:02.073
And so, you know, she ended up.

00:25:02.895 --> 00:25:08.535
Dying because she was at that protest, leaving the protest, as a matter of fact.

00:25:08.795 --> 00:25:13.075
And there's still an investigation that's been halted because people haven't

00:25:13.075 --> 00:25:17.935
been able to get to the information. But the video that shows that she was driving

00:25:17.935 --> 00:25:21.755
away, she was not aimed at any of the ICE agents, even though it was said that

00:25:21.755 --> 00:25:23.595
later. And that happens.

00:25:23.855 --> 00:25:27.275
There's always going to be different sides to a story, and the government has

00:25:27.275 --> 00:25:32.655
more resources and better able to get their story out and sustain it longer.

00:25:32.975 --> 00:25:36.695
But, you know, those people who were there said that she was not aiming her

00:25:36.695 --> 00:25:40.355
car, trying to hurt any of the ICE agents when she was shot.

00:25:40.895 --> 00:25:45.955
So, and once again, we have other people who have died at the hands of ICE at

00:25:45.955 --> 00:25:48.575
protests, but they will be next year.

00:25:49.035 --> 00:25:53.035
So we, there are, and this is just right now, if you think about it.

00:25:53.375 --> 00:25:58.835
So if you, one of the aspects of Martyrs Day that we divided up because of the U.S.

00:25:58.955 --> 00:26:02.275
Supreme Court decisions We tell young people all the time, I don't know if you've

00:26:02.275 --> 00:26:06.935
told us, but we tell young people, people died for your voting rights. We say that all the time.

00:26:07.075 --> 00:26:11.755
So what we wanted to do was actually show the names and faces of people who

00:26:11.755 --> 00:26:17.215
did die for your voting rights. So it's not just this kind of vague concept that people died.

00:26:17.475 --> 00:26:20.835
These are the people who did die for voting rights.

00:26:21.215 --> 00:26:24.515
And we need to understand that those deaths.

00:26:25.842 --> 00:26:30.482
Were not some tragedy. Those deaths were intentional.

00:26:31.342 --> 00:26:38.422
Liuzzo, Viola Liuzzo was in her car. She had driven down from Detroit.

00:26:38.982 --> 00:26:44.622
She had come down to just help with the protests that were taking place in Selma,

00:26:44.722 --> 00:26:46.882
Alabama, in the Selma to Montgomery march.

00:26:47.122 --> 00:26:53.642
She was driving one of the voting rights activists to the airport when white

00:26:53.642 --> 00:26:57.342
supremacists drove her off the road, shot into the car, killed her,

00:26:57.502 --> 00:27:01.402
and tried to kill the other person who was in the car. It was African-American male.

00:27:02.282 --> 00:27:07.122
That's the truth of the story. That is American history. And not telling people

00:27:07.122 --> 00:27:08.682
about it doesn't make it go away.

00:27:09.262 --> 00:27:13.882
You know, it just pours salt in the wound. But I don't want people to just stop

00:27:13.882 --> 00:27:18.582
at the death because I don't want people to say, oh, protest is so dangerous. So why should I protest?

00:27:19.482 --> 00:27:23.482
You know, just like driving your car is dangerous and you have car accidents

00:27:23.482 --> 00:27:27.402
that happen, but you still drive. We still protest.

00:27:27.862 --> 00:27:34.782
These lives that were taken were not martyrs because they walked into the battlefield

00:27:34.782 --> 00:27:36.742
thinking they were going to die. This is the difference.

00:27:37.122 --> 00:27:41.842
People sign up for military action. They know there's a chance that something's

00:27:41.842 --> 00:27:44.102
going to happen to them if they're sent out.

00:27:44.662 --> 00:27:48.662
But those people who are protesting, and I've protested many times,

00:27:48.842 --> 00:27:52.682
I'm not trying to sign a death warrant when I go out with my protest sign.

00:27:52.682 --> 00:27:54.802
I'm exercising my constitutional rights.

00:27:55.640 --> 00:28:02.440
However, people can be martyred, meaning because they were in those particular situations.

00:28:02.980 --> 00:28:07.840
Either regular people out there who got angry enough to kill them decided to do so,

00:28:08.280 --> 00:28:15.980
which is what happened with Reverend Reeb, R-E-E-B, who was a Unitarian minister

00:28:15.980 --> 00:28:20.280
who had come down for the march across the Edmund Pettus Bridge, the second march.

00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:28.000
He was walking back to his hotel. He was jumped by a group of white supremacists and beaten to death.

00:28:28.660 --> 00:28:31.480
Beaten to death. Now, this is a white minister from Cambridge,

00:28:31.620 --> 00:28:36.580
Massachusetts, who's in Selma, beaten to death because he's there to exercise

00:28:36.580 --> 00:28:39.100
his constitutional rights and support voting.

00:28:39.340 --> 00:28:42.900
Why are people there? Because they had been denying black people the right to

00:28:42.900 --> 00:28:46.380
vote to vote in Alabama and many other places in the South, but this is in Alabama.

00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:51.200
That's why he was there in the first place. He was there among hundreds of protesters.

00:28:51.760 --> 00:28:57.600
So they hadn't signed up to have their lives taken. They didn't lose their lives

00:28:57.600 --> 00:28:59.200
because they were in military.

00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:06.120
They're regular people trying to exercise their First Amendment rights and trying

00:29:06.120 --> 00:29:10.160
to get people to understand the injustices taking place in this country and

00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:13.000
move the country forward. Now we've moved forward.

00:29:13.420 --> 00:29:17.300
We've gone forward. Vernon Dahmer. Vernon Dahmer in Mississippi.

00:29:18.658 --> 00:29:22.578
It's said that it was the sheriff and other people who came to his home and

00:29:22.578 --> 00:29:24.678
burned his home down with him in it.

00:29:25.178 --> 00:29:28.978
Why? Because he was helping poor farmers.

00:29:29.098 --> 00:29:34.778
This is a black man who was quite wealthy in Mississippi. He had a lot of farmland, had businesses.

00:29:35.098 --> 00:29:40.958
So he was able to pay the poll tax for the poor farmers, poor black farmers.

00:29:41.378 --> 00:29:44.898
So when the sheriff and other people found out that he was paying that poll

00:29:44.898 --> 00:29:49.998
tax that had prevented those black farmers from voting before, They came to his house.

00:29:50.378 --> 00:29:56.918
He was an NAACP president. He was somebody who had been very active in voter registration.

00:29:56.998 --> 00:29:59.998
They came to kill him, and they ended up taking his life.

00:30:00.118 --> 00:30:03.478
He held them off long enough for his family members to get out of the house

00:30:03.478 --> 00:30:07.438
before the sheriff and others that burned the house down.

00:30:07.518 --> 00:30:11.618
He died of his wounds. But his phrase, Vernon Dahmer, he's on our website,

00:30:11.798 --> 00:30:15.698
watersday.us. His phrase was, if you don't vote, you don't count.

00:30:16.278 --> 00:30:21.698
These are the people I want other folks to hear, not just the young people, but anybody.

00:30:21.698 --> 00:30:26.258
When you hear that phrase, folks died or people died for your voting rights, go to the website.

00:30:26.258 --> 00:30:30.558
You can actually see the names, the faces, see short bios of the people who

00:30:30.558 --> 00:30:36.958
died for our voting rights. So I think the website, I think the purpose connected

00:30:36.958 --> 00:30:40.478
to the 4th of July is important, that freedom isn't free.

00:30:40.898 --> 00:30:45.618
And the people did pay the ultimate price. Regular people paid the ultimate price.

00:30:45.718 --> 00:30:48.938
And they didn't intend to have their lives taken, but that's what happened.

00:30:48.938 --> 00:30:58.058
Yeah, as an alumnus of Jackson State University, there's two people that we

00:30:58.058 --> 00:31:02.498
honor every year, Philip Gibbs and James Green.

00:31:02.938 --> 00:31:04.798
They were killed twice.

00:31:05.650 --> 00:31:12.970
Within weeks, days, really, it was the same time as the Kent State massacre.

00:31:13.850 --> 00:31:19.250
And so, you know, the nation paid attention to Kent State, but the same thing

00:31:19.250 --> 00:31:20.390
happened at Jackson State.

00:31:20.890 --> 00:31:25.690
And I remember as a young man, before I even got to Jackson State,

00:31:25.830 --> 00:31:31.170
there was a classic picture of Walter Mondale and Birch Bayh looking out one

00:31:31.170 --> 00:31:33.830
of the bullet shot out windows at the dormitory.

00:31:33.830 --> 00:31:36.190
Right where it took place.

00:31:36.550 --> 00:31:44.770
And if you go to Jackson State now, you'll still see those panels on that dorm.

00:31:45.010 --> 00:31:48.790
You know, of course, they replaced the glass and all that, but the panels up

00:31:48.790 --> 00:31:54.270
under the glass, you can still see where the bullets riddled the place.

00:31:54.450 --> 00:31:59.530
And so Philip Gibbs was a senior there, and James Green, unfortunately,

00:31:59.630 --> 00:32:04.070
was a senior at the neighboring high school, and he just happened to be on campus

00:32:04.070 --> 00:32:05.430
when the shooting took place.

00:32:05.790 --> 00:32:11.390
So we have a spot, Gibbs Green Plaza named after them, and every year,

00:32:11.710 --> 00:32:14.170
because there were several other students that were wounded,

00:32:14.810 --> 00:32:16.990
including Ms. Jackson State at the time.

00:32:17.190 --> 00:32:24.950
And she now has been an elected official for umpteen years in Hinds County.

00:32:26.390 --> 00:32:31.570
But, yeah, we do something. And the other distinction about that class was that

00:32:31.570 --> 00:32:34.750
because of the time of year it happened,

00:32:34.950 --> 00:32:39.610
they were the only class, class of 1970, that never got their diplomas until

00:32:39.610 --> 00:32:46.330
I think they finally had a ceremony for them about 10 years ago to finally award

00:32:46.330 --> 00:32:48.470
the survivors their diplomas and stuff.

00:32:48.590 --> 00:32:52.110
But they didn't have a graduation because of the magnitude of that.

00:32:52.310 --> 00:32:57.390
And then there was another man named Benjamin Brown. Again, this was a Vietnam

00:32:57.390 --> 00:33:03.110
era protest and Benjamin was leaving the protest.

00:33:03.967 --> 00:33:07.867
He had gone and got him some fish. There was a store called the Penguin Inn

00:33:07.867 --> 00:33:09.407
right across the street from the campus.

00:33:09.607 --> 00:33:12.687
He went and got some fish and was heading home to his family.

00:33:13.287 --> 00:33:17.747
And the police identified him as one of the organizers, I guess,

00:33:17.827 --> 00:33:20.907
of the protest. And they just basically shot him down in the street.

00:33:21.707 --> 00:33:28.667
And so there's a park named after Benjamin and right next to this old junior

00:33:28.667 --> 00:33:33.707
high school called Rowan over on the city's, I guess you could say, west side.

00:33:33.967 --> 00:33:38.087
So, you know, like you said, and especially from Mississippi,

00:33:38.087 --> 00:33:41.127
there's so many names that you can bring up.

00:33:41.247 --> 00:33:46.287
But but I wanted to since we were having a conversation, I wanted to lift those names up.

00:33:47.287 --> 00:33:52.867
I'm glad you did. I'm glad you did. And I'm going to say for people who have

00:33:52.867 --> 00:34:02.227
names like that, send them to us at info at martyrsday.us because that's how we gather the names.

00:34:02.227 --> 00:34:06.227
You know, we have those nationally known figures, but these people,

00:34:06.327 --> 00:34:10.187
there are so many deaths around the country, if you think about it.

00:34:10.607 --> 00:34:14.267
And we just keep going like it didn't happen. So I thank you for sharing that,

00:34:14.347 --> 00:34:15.407
and I've been writing it down.

00:34:15.427 --> 00:34:22.327
I thank you, because I can't know everybody, and we have local Martyrs Day events,

00:34:22.367 --> 00:34:25.247
so people can have their own event like you have yours.

00:34:25.407 --> 00:34:31.027
And it could be any way you want it on July 5th. Those names might be lifted up again.

00:34:31.947 --> 00:34:35.747
One quick point, I talked to someone last week and she said,

00:34:35.807 --> 00:34:41.787
Oh, this would be great for me because my father was lynched and we always thought of him as a martyr.

00:34:42.785 --> 00:34:46.605
Can you imagine? This is not father, but grandfather.

00:34:46.945 --> 00:34:50.825
Their grandfather was lynched, and they said they always thought of him as a

00:34:50.825 --> 00:34:54.165
martyr, but they never had a place to put it.

00:34:54.605 --> 00:34:58.945
Where do you put this betrayal? Where do you put this pain? Where do you put

00:34:58.945 --> 00:35:01.705
this? And so thank you for that information.

00:35:02.485 --> 00:35:07.605
So my follow-up to the other question is, in your assessment,

00:35:07.965 --> 00:35:12.745
do you think that the American people currently have the mindset and the fortitude

00:35:12.745 --> 00:35:17.285
to make the sacrifices in order to create real freedom now?

00:35:18.025 --> 00:35:25.145
Well, it's never been everybody. It's always just been a small group that have ever done anything.

00:35:26.725 --> 00:35:31.925
They'll say it's like 3%, 5%, whatever it may be, but it's a small group.

00:35:32.665 --> 00:35:35.925
And then other people will just jump on board later.

00:35:36.305 --> 00:35:40.105
And then you have some who just the whole time, their plan is to wait for the

00:35:40.105 --> 00:35:43.545
protesters and other people to do all the work, and then they just walk in the door once is open.

00:35:43.745 --> 00:35:49.685
And so, you know, but I think there are American people who will continue,

00:35:49.825 --> 00:35:51.585
as you see, continue to protest.

00:35:51.945 --> 00:35:55.245
You know, they will continue to try to figure out how to use their voices,

00:35:55.485 --> 00:36:00.745
their bodies, their minds, their creativity, their alliances and resources to

00:36:00.745 --> 00:36:02.545
push the country forward.

00:36:02.825 --> 00:36:08.525
That's how we got here. So if you were to ask that simple question, how could we get from.

00:36:11.374 --> 00:36:17.354
1776 to 2026 without protesters. How do you think we got here?

00:36:18.734 --> 00:36:23.254
It's almost like people think it was a magic formula of some kind that all these

00:36:23.254 --> 00:36:27.914
very benevolent people just got together and said, yes, let's stop slavery.

00:36:28.134 --> 00:36:29.994
Yes, let's give women the right to vote.

00:36:30.454 --> 00:36:36.194
Yes, let's have these protections on our jobs so that people have good wages

00:36:36.194 --> 00:36:41.154
and they're not working in dangerous situations. Oh, yes, let's have food that's

00:36:41.154 --> 00:36:42.574
free of poisons and toxins.

00:36:42.914 --> 00:36:47.474
Yes, just let's do this. No, there are always protesters protesting along the

00:36:47.474 --> 00:36:49.194
way, pushing the nation forward.

00:36:49.434 --> 00:36:53.734
And it's almost as though as protesters, they've been behind the curtain.

00:36:53.994 --> 00:36:58.014
And now it's time to open the curtain and actually show there's an engine of

00:36:58.014 --> 00:37:03.034
people throughout this nation's history that have helped it to grow and go forward

00:37:03.034 --> 00:37:06.274
and become the nation the world sees it to be.

00:37:06.734 --> 00:37:10.634
And that didn't happen by accident. That happened by a lot of work and then

00:37:10.634 --> 00:37:12.494
there were lives lost along the way.

00:37:12.914 --> 00:37:16.374
And that's what Martyrs Day is about, recognizing and paying tribute to the

00:37:16.374 --> 00:37:21.054
lives lost along the way so that we better understand the work that had to be

00:37:21.054 --> 00:37:23.314
done and the work that needs to continue to be done.

00:37:23.474 --> 00:37:25.794
But I've got to circle back to your question for this point.

00:37:26.634 --> 00:37:33.374
Do we have enough people who have a plan of those rights being protected to go forward?

00:37:33.574 --> 00:37:39.074
That's my concern. And that's why Martyrs Day is about memory about the martyrs,

00:37:39.094 --> 00:37:43.914
but it's also about a recommitment to go forward, a recommitment around our

00:37:43.914 --> 00:37:46.314
democracy, around our diversity,

00:37:46.834 --> 00:37:50.394
a recommitment around our health, around our literacy, around our communities,

00:37:50.394 --> 00:37:51.914
so that we can go forward.

00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:56.579
As a nation because the people who were protesting weren't protesting just for themselves.

00:37:57.259 --> 00:38:01.219
Heather Heyer wasn't protesting just for herself. She was a free white woman

00:38:01.219 --> 00:38:04.359
with a job and a life. She didn't have to do this.

00:38:04.759 --> 00:38:08.779
Dr. Martin Luther King had a PhD during a time period in which there were very

00:38:08.779 --> 00:38:11.819
small numbers of Black people with PhDs.

00:38:11.979 --> 00:38:17.359
He had a father with a church in Atlanta. He didn't have to do any of these things he did.

00:38:17.619 --> 00:38:21.459
He wasn't doing it just for himself. He was doing it for the community,

00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:23.979
it was doing it for the country to go forward.

00:38:24.219 --> 00:38:30.679
Do we have enough people who have forward-minded thoughts of where we need to go as a nation?

00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:35.699
That's going to be an interesting question. I think we do, but they have to

00:38:35.699 --> 00:38:40.919
realize that now is the time to step up and recommit to forward thinking,

00:38:40.919 --> 00:38:45.019
not just protesting against something, but protesting for something.

00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:50.179
Yes, they were protesting against the war, but they were also protesting for peace.

00:38:51.032 --> 00:38:55.572
So I think that's going to be something, and you have such smart listeners,

00:38:56.112 --> 00:39:00.732
that they can contemplate in the privacy of their own homes and figure out what

00:39:00.732 --> 00:39:02.012
role they're going to play.

00:39:02.192 --> 00:39:07.252
And once again, it's martyrsday.us is the website. They can go on and see the martyrs list.

00:39:07.432 --> 00:39:12.092
And as I said, it's a symbolized list of different issues, time frames,

00:39:12.292 --> 00:39:14.432
people, backgrounds, but also

00:39:14.432 --> 00:39:17.832
look at the materials and try to figure out what they want to do locally.

00:39:18.772 --> 00:39:21.512
Our program national program will be in new

00:39:21.512 --> 00:39:24.892
york at riverside church that's the church where Mandela

00:39:24.892 --> 00:39:28.172
spoke that's the church of social justice for over

00:39:28.172 --> 00:39:33.232
a hundred years and so new york city is where it is and the invitation rsvp

00:39:33.232 --> 00:39:39.872
is there on the website martyrsday.us and also we're looking for for community

00:39:39.872 --> 00:39:45.692
sponsors and other sponsors who want to support this work because the work you know, takes money.

00:39:45.752 --> 00:39:48.992
So people who want to give a contribution, whatever size that might be,

00:39:49.192 --> 00:39:51.092
we appreciate that as well.

00:39:51.232 --> 00:39:57.092
We have a 501C3 conduit that we are using. So it would be a non-taxable,

00:39:57.472 --> 00:39:59.992
you know, well, tax-deductible contribution.

00:40:00.692 --> 00:40:02.372
But I'm concerned about.

00:40:03.230 --> 00:40:07.130
Even the protests we have, whether it's no kings, American opposition,

00:40:07.570 --> 00:40:11.690
any of these protests, are they protesting just against?

00:40:12.130 --> 00:40:14.830
What are they protesting for? And

00:40:14.830 --> 00:40:19.710
these people were dying protesting for something, for a better country.

00:40:19.750 --> 00:40:25.150
So I hope that that's part of what folks who are going out to protest are thinking about.

00:40:25.530 --> 00:40:32.350
Yeah. So you mentioned the big, I guess, the official celebration.

00:40:32.350 --> 00:40:37.930
In New York, but what can one do to personally celebrate Martyrs Day?

00:40:38.630 --> 00:40:42.870
Here's the thing. We thought about that too. So there are local events,

00:40:43.010 --> 00:40:45.350
for example, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia,

00:40:46.010 --> 00:40:51.430
Highsville, Maryland, Lewes, Delaware, whether or not it's a big city or a small

00:40:51.430 --> 00:40:58.030
town, you can have your own local Martyrs Day event on July 5th.

00:40:58.230 --> 00:41:03.330
So we have information on the website. We have draft proclamations.

00:41:03.330 --> 00:41:07.170
You can go to your town, your city council, wherever it is and say,

00:41:07.450 --> 00:41:12.510
we want to support officially making July 5th Martyrs Day in our town.

00:41:13.150 --> 00:41:18.170
So we have draft proclamations that people can do for their town and then they

00:41:18.170 --> 00:41:21.270
can have a moment of silence. Here's what one town is doing.

00:41:21.530 --> 00:41:25.930
One town is showing the movie Till and having a discussion afterwards.

00:41:26.650 --> 00:41:31.050
Another one is going to watch the live stream of the national event and then

00:41:31.050 --> 00:41:32.690
have their own discussion afterwards.

00:41:32.970 --> 00:41:38.710
Because July 5th is a Sunday, there are Sunday services that are going to have

00:41:38.710 --> 00:41:42.510
a reading of the names that are on the website and include the names of any

00:41:42.510 --> 00:41:44.450
local martyrs from their town.

00:41:44.990 --> 00:41:50.530
So there are many ways. We have one group that they're going to have a moment of silence on July 5th.

00:41:51.176 --> 00:41:54.256
And so they're just going to take that time out to have a moment of silence

00:41:54.256 --> 00:41:59.376
and give a silent prayer on behalf of those people whose lives were taken to

00:41:59.376 --> 00:42:03.076
create voting rights, social justice, the anti-war movement,

00:42:03.496 --> 00:42:04.936
you know, better working conditions.

00:42:05.156 --> 00:42:08.696
There are so many ways in which protesters have made our lives better.

00:42:08.916 --> 00:42:12.676
Taking a moment of silence just to recognize some people did some work and paid

00:42:12.676 --> 00:42:17.296
the ultimate price for this inside the country, not just in a war outside the

00:42:17.296 --> 00:42:22.816
country. So those are ways in which people can have their own local Martyrs Day programs.

00:42:23.056 --> 00:42:26.636
And so we look forward to that. And there's information on the website,

00:42:26.816 --> 00:42:31.996
martyrsday.us, to look at how you can have your own local program and just ideas.

00:42:32.336 --> 00:42:35.556
Some people are going to have spoken word. Some people are going to have a little

00:42:35.556 --> 00:42:39.056
program after their church. So they have the church service and afterwards.

00:42:39.616 --> 00:42:42.676
And then we have synagogues, where they're not, it's a temple.

00:42:42.676 --> 00:42:48.016
Whatever religious entity that you have, you can use that space on whatever

00:42:48.016 --> 00:42:50.516
day you want to have some type of program.

00:42:50.756 --> 00:42:56.976
So it's just a way in which people can make it their own as they have the 4th of July.

00:42:57.656 --> 00:43:02.396
They've made it their own in the way they want to commemorate the independence of this nation.

00:43:02.736 --> 00:43:08.636
People can make it their own to commemorate and pay tribute to those people

00:43:08.636 --> 00:43:12.456
whose lives were lost in creating the rights we have today.

00:43:12.876 --> 00:43:17.056
Lives regular people going to the store for butter and milk.

00:43:17.886 --> 00:43:23.086
And are going out to do a protest thinking that they're just going to carry a sign.

00:43:23.406 --> 00:43:27.546
And then what happens is, you know, part of history.

00:43:27.786 --> 00:43:32.946
But it's also because it's so delicate in this country to talk about protests by itself.

00:43:33.366 --> 00:43:37.746
Then it talks about people's lives lost in protests. These people have been

00:43:37.746 --> 00:43:43.546
like left behind in our discussions and we need to bring them forward. Yeah.

00:43:44.026 --> 00:43:49.786
Well, and you've been doing a good job of promoting the website and people want

00:43:49.786 --> 00:43:51.946
to reach out to you all about it.

00:43:52.046 --> 00:43:56.466
But go ahead and just say it again with the website where people can pull up

00:43:56.466 --> 00:44:00.546
because I saw that resolution. I didn't know if that was something that was

00:44:00.546 --> 00:44:02.066
already done, but that was a template.

00:44:02.266 --> 00:44:08.646
If you want to go to other you go to your city and ask somebody to make that proclamation.

00:44:09.667 --> 00:44:13.607
Yes. Yeah. So go ahead and tell people about the website again and how people

00:44:13.607 --> 00:44:17.467
can reach out to you or or reach out to the organization. Jason.

00:44:18.307 --> 00:44:27.007
The website is martyrsday, M-A-R-T-Y-R-S-Day.us.

00:44:27.007 --> 00:44:35.507
And it's .us, not .com, .us, because this is the first Martyrs Day in the United States of America.

00:44:35.947 --> 00:44:42.507
This is the very first one ever. So the United States now has its first Martyrs Day.

00:44:42.687 --> 00:44:46.347
We hope that it will become not just an annual event that takes place,

00:44:46.507 --> 00:44:49.347
but an annual event in which the federal government recognizes it.

00:44:49.527 --> 00:44:55.567
So those politicians who are listening, you know, we want you to put forward

00:44:55.567 --> 00:44:59.847
a proclamation, request for a proclamation to make July 5th martyrs day.

00:45:00.227 --> 00:45:03.447
Local government officials, people can go to the government.

00:45:03.587 --> 00:45:07.627
As you said, it's on the website, draft resolution, a draft proclamation.

00:45:07.887 --> 00:45:11.687
All of those things are on the website. So you can fill in your town and,

00:45:11.687 --> 00:45:16.427
you know, tweak it to make it work for your jurisdiction, and take it to your

00:45:16.427 --> 00:45:19.707
local politician. And it's martyrsday.us.

00:45:20.227 --> 00:45:26.487
And I think it's important that we recognize the lives lost in the labor movements,

00:45:26.667 --> 00:45:32.147
the lives lost in the civil rights movement, and the anti-war movement, so many movements.

00:45:32.307 --> 00:45:36.247
We've had people, regular people whose lives were lost. And this is the way

00:45:36.247 --> 00:45:38.747
in your town, you know who they are.

00:45:39.465 --> 00:45:41.385
And I've had people contact me

00:45:41.385 --> 00:45:47.845
by email, and that would be info at martyrsday.us, info at martyrsday.us.

00:45:47.845 --> 00:45:53.485
And they've told me about their mother, their sister, people who,

00:45:53.825 --> 00:45:58.905
their father, people who have lost their lives over time.

00:45:59.065 --> 00:46:01.805
And they're living to this day with this hurt.

00:46:01.805 --> 00:46:08.445
But it's also something as recent as an incident that took place in Maryland

00:46:08.445 --> 00:46:14.545
at the University of Maryland campus on that campus with Lieutenant Richard Collins,

00:46:14.565 --> 00:46:19.605
who was stabbed by white supremacists or stabbed by someone who was white and

00:46:19.605 --> 00:46:24.265
angry and found there was found to have white supremacists and anti-Semitic

00:46:24.265 --> 00:46:26.745
information on his laptop. house.

00:46:26.865 --> 00:46:30.445
So I'm not going to call him a white supremacist because even though he was

00:46:30.445 --> 00:46:33.785
charged initially, they thought he would be charged as a hate crime.

00:46:34.425 --> 00:46:40.465
Hate crime legislation came out of the protests after the death of this student,

00:46:41.325 --> 00:46:46.345
Bowie State student, who was stabbed while he was on the University of Maryland

00:46:46.345 --> 00:46:48.625
campus. He was going to go into the military.

00:46:48.725 --> 00:46:53.425
So he's on the website as well, Lieutenant Richard Collins.

00:46:53.985 --> 00:46:56.945
And this happened recently. This was 2017.

00:46:58.245 --> 00:47:04.045
So, so many things happened. And his mom is going to be part of the program

00:47:04.045 --> 00:47:09.425
that we do at Riverside Church on July 5th here in New York City.

00:47:09.825 --> 00:47:16.245
But you know, and I'm speaking to your listeners now, you know who those people are in your town.

00:47:16.625 --> 00:47:18.685
And it's always kind of hushed up.

00:47:19.471 --> 00:47:22.571
Because after it happened, after the lynchings happened, after the shootings

00:47:22.571 --> 00:47:24.631
happened, it's like it just goes away.

00:47:24.911 --> 00:47:28.011
But the pain and the hurt and the wound doesn't leave.

00:47:28.251 --> 00:47:32.171
And this is one of those ways in which it doesn't stop the pain,

00:47:32.211 --> 00:47:33.971
but at least addresses the fact

00:47:33.971 --> 00:47:39.131
that there is pain and that these people's lives were lost and are taken.

00:47:40.471 --> 00:47:46.451
And it gives them a proper place in society as opposed to being hidden away. Yeah.

00:47:46.831 --> 00:47:53.651
Well, Professor Gloria J. Browne-Marshall, I really, when you mentioned that

00:47:53.651 --> 00:48:00.071
to me, I really was excited to hear that and to hear you talk about it.

00:48:00.191 --> 00:48:05.351
I feel the passion. I know that you have written this incredible book about

00:48:05.351 --> 00:48:11.571
the history of protests in the United States, and this is really an extension of that work.

00:48:11.571 --> 00:48:16.151
And I know you know that, but for the listeners, because like you said,

00:48:16.391 --> 00:48:21.751
sacrifices have been made and we stand on the shoulders of those who,

00:48:21.751 --> 00:48:24.111
you know, made that sacrifice.

00:48:24.351 --> 00:48:31.211
And we stand shoulder to shoulder with a lot of people that that that were marching with those folks.

00:48:31.211 --> 00:48:37.891
So I greatly appreciate you You doing this to acknowledge those folks And I

00:48:37.891 --> 00:48:39.591
wish you much success And.

00:48:40.527 --> 00:48:44.227
And we'll, we'll see what's going on. I noticed Atlanta was not on there.

00:48:44.427 --> 00:48:50.067
So since I'm here in Atlanta, I guess I'm going to have to get the ball rolling here.

00:48:50.667 --> 00:48:53.827
Yeah. Yeah. You kind of put me on the spot, but anyway, we'll,

00:48:53.907 --> 00:48:56.787
we'll, we'll, we'll see what we can do down here in the black Mecca.

00:48:57.147 --> 00:49:01.127
But, but professor, I, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to talk about

00:49:01.127 --> 00:49:04.967
it and really for the effort you're putting together and your,

00:49:05.067 --> 00:49:08.427
your committee to, to, to, to pull this off.

00:49:08.427 --> 00:49:15.127
So hopefully this will get some people informed and maybe get some more events

00:49:15.127 --> 00:49:16.807
organized within the next month.

00:49:17.207 --> 00:49:20.747
Thank you. I thank you for giving me this time to talk about it.

00:49:20.867 --> 00:49:25.407
And we are making history and I feel it.

00:49:25.527 --> 00:49:31.547
And the ancestors are rising up because these people have been taken from us,

00:49:31.627 --> 00:49:35.767
but they're not gone. And their spirit is still in this country.

00:49:35.927 --> 00:49:38.207
And this country can't hide from us fast. is here.

00:49:38.567 --> 00:49:43.987
So I thank you for giving the opportunity to let people know martyrsday.us July

00:49:43.987 --> 00:49:48.987
5th, and go to the website, look under invitation if you want to watch the live

00:49:48.987 --> 00:49:50.807
stream, if you want to attend.

00:49:51.087 --> 00:49:57.547
And I'm looking forward to what Atlanta does. Atlanta, what's Atlanta going to do? Yes, ma'am.

00:49:58.027 --> 00:50:00.607
All right, guys, we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

00:50:21.209 --> 00:50:26.049
We are back, and so now it is time for my next guest, Betsy Hodges.

00:50:26.609 --> 00:50:30.829
Betsy Hodges was the 47th mayor of Minneapolis, Minnesota.

00:50:31.489 --> 00:50:35.789
Mayor Hodges currently serves as an advisor to cities, mayors,

00:50:35.929 --> 00:50:40.149
and a nonprofit and private sectors about how to support progressive policy

00:50:40.149 --> 00:50:44.769
and improve equitable outcomes for black, indigenous, and people of color.

00:50:45.449 --> 00:50:49.909
She is a senior fellow with the Atlantic Fellowship for Racial Equity,

00:50:50.329 --> 00:50:55.529
the Rodale Fellowship, and the Othering and Belonging Institute at the University

00:50:55.529 --> 00:51:00.169
of California, Berkeley, and was a residential fellow at the Harvard Kennedy

00:51:00.169 --> 00:51:01.829
School Institute of Politics.

00:51:01.829 --> 00:51:07.249
She is a senior advisor to the Mayor's Innovation Project, on the board of directors

00:51:07.249 --> 00:51:13.569
for the National Black MBA Association, and the Center for Good Food Purchasing,

00:51:13.869 --> 00:51:16.009
on the Elders Council for Race Forward,

00:51:16.609 --> 00:51:20.069
and on the board of advisors for the African American Mayor's Association,

00:51:20.469 --> 00:51:25.049
the MIT Policy Review Journal, and the Bruce Springsteen Archives,

00:51:25.329 --> 00:51:27.409
and Center for American Music.

00:51:28.089 --> 00:51:30.929
She has written about politics and race for the New York Times,

00:51:31.289 --> 00:51:36.369
CNN, USA Today, American Prospect, the Huffington Post, and others.

00:51:36.609 --> 00:51:41.629
She and her husband, Gary Cunningham, live in Silver Springs, Maryland.

00:51:42.089 --> 00:51:46.229
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:51:46.229 --> 00:51:50.189
on this podcast, the Honorable Betsy Hodges.

00:52:03.114 --> 00:52:09.694
The Honorable Betsy Hodges, the 47th mayor in the history of the city of Minneapolis.

00:52:09.954 --> 00:52:12.814
How are you doing? I'm doing all right. How are you doing?

00:52:13.334 --> 00:52:20.714
I'm doing good. I'm really honored to have you come on because you've had some

00:52:20.714 --> 00:52:23.654
experience as an elected official. I want to touch on that.

00:52:25.154 --> 00:52:31.434
And especially from the city that you had the distinction of leading.

00:52:31.434 --> 00:52:34.894
And then I want to get into the work that you've been doing,

00:52:34.894 --> 00:52:40.474
because I think it's very, very, it's always been timely in the history of America,

00:52:40.634 --> 00:52:42.094
but I think even more so now.

00:52:42.614 --> 00:52:47.314
So I definitely want to get into that. But I do do a couple of icebreakers to

00:52:47.314 --> 00:52:48.794
kind of get the conversation going.

00:52:49.834 --> 00:52:54.014
So the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.

00:52:54.014 --> 00:52:58.834
And the quote is, Somebody, your father or mine,

00:52:59.394 --> 00:53:03.614
should have told us that not many people have ever died of love,

00:53:03.814 --> 00:53:09.474
but multitudes have perished and are perishing every hour and in the oddest

00:53:09.474 --> 00:53:13.114
places for the lack of. What does that quote mean to you?

00:53:13.754 --> 00:53:19.174
That's James Baldwin. It is at the end of all my emails that I send.

00:53:20.874 --> 00:53:24.014
And it's a reminder to me

00:53:24.014 --> 00:53:30.554
always to base my work around love that if love is not at the center of the

00:53:30.554 --> 00:53:36.274
work that I do that I have gone astray and that quote when I read it really

00:53:36.274 --> 00:53:43.354
was emblematic of that notion to me just this reminder that love is the most important thing.

00:53:44.634 --> 00:53:47.994
And to act like it in my life and in my work.

00:53:48.926 --> 00:53:51.866
Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's an awesome quote.

00:53:52.306 --> 00:53:56.466
Mine's done. My email doesn't end that profound. Maybe I should start doing

00:53:56.466 --> 00:53:59.226
that to make you feel more comfortable.

00:54:00.086 --> 00:54:04.966
All right. So now the, the second icebreaker is something I call 20 questions.

00:54:06.004 --> 00:54:10.104
So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

00:54:10.724 --> 00:54:14.384
And I didn't cheat. I know this is one of your icebreakers, but I haven't listened

00:54:14.384 --> 00:54:16.484
to every one of what those numbers are.

00:54:16.604 --> 00:54:20.404
So I'm just picking my favorite number, which is 11. Okay.

00:54:21.524 --> 00:54:26.184
All right. Where do you go to check a fact that you see, hear, or read?

00:54:26.724 --> 00:54:35.584
Usually I go to the Internet, but I use my judgment in the replies that I get.

00:54:36.304 --> 00:54:39.444
Sometimes if it's a story or something, I'll go to Snopes.

00:54:39.684 --> 00:54:43.484
If I see something on social media, I see this doesn't sound quite right.

00:54:43.484 --> 00:54:46.564
I'll go to Snopes and double check it there, for example.

00:54:47.304 --> 00:54:54.084
Yeah, I tend to use Snopes a lot. A number of my guests and some listeners have

00:54:54.084 --> 00:54:56.284
told me about it and I started using it.

00:54:56.904 --> 00:55:02.064
It's supposed to be another source out there, Ground News. I haven't checked that out yet.

00:55:02.824 --> 00:55:04.324
Oh, Ground News is great.

00:55:05.284 --> 00:55:08.524
I am a i'm a subscriber to ground news that's

00:55:08.524 --> 00:55:11.464
that's mostly where i filter my

00:55:11.464 --> 00:55:14.804
news through because i wanted a combination

00:55:14.804 --> 00:55:22.364
of you know an awareness of the the verity of any of the sources that i was

00:55:22.364 --> 00:55:26.884
getting a story from and one of the things i love about blind news is they have

00:55:26.884 --> 00:55:30.124
something called the blind spot stories that are being more reported on the

00:55:30.124 --> 00:55:31.984
right than the left or vice versa.

00:55:32.424 --> 00:55:37.324
So I can get a sense of what is it that the right is listening to that the left is not?

00:55:37.524 --> 00:55:42.164
What is it that the left is hearing all about and the right is not hearing a single thing about it?

00:55:42.404 --> 00:55:48.624
And they are clear what, and they give you very clear criteria that they use

00:55:48.624 --> 00:55:55.504
to assess where a news outlet falls on the spectrum right to left and factual to non-factual.

00:55:55.824 --> 00:55:59.844
Okay. So ground news and blind news, you said. Okay. Okay.

00:56:00.306 --> 00:56:05.026
All right. I'll check those. Well, Ground News has something called the blind spot.

00:56:05.266 --> 00:56:10.846
One of the things they offer is they will give that assessment for you at Ground News. Yep.

00:56:11.606 --> 00:56:16.206
Gotcha. Okay. All right. So I like origin stories.

00:56:16.646 --> 00:56:23.406
So how did a young girl from Wyzetta, Minnesota, become a sociology major and

00:56:23.406 --> 00:56:28.266
then end up being the mayor of one of America's major cities?

00:56:28.986 --> 00:56:33.006
Let's see. I actually grew up in Minnetonka, but I did go to Wayzata High School,

00:56:33.666 --> 00:56:34.486
Minnetonka, Minnesota.

00:56:34.926 --> 00:56:37.746
If you're not from there, that is a distinction without a difference.

00:56:37.886 --> 00:56:40.326
But if you are from there, there's a little bit of a difference.

00:56:40.846 --> 00:56:48.446
But how did I? You know, I grew up—both of those suburbs are very wealthy,

00:56:48.986 --> 00:56:52.106
especially the part I grew up in, very white, very—.

00:56:53.284 --> 00:56:58.064
Middle-class, upper-middle-class, and owning-class suburbs of the city of Minneapolis.

00:56:59.024 --> 00:57:03.304
And I was going to junior high and high school in the 1980s.

00:57:03.404 --> 00:57:06.724
The greed is good, Gordon Gekko, 1980s.

00:57:07.284 --> 00:57:13.484
And I was very confused about what was going on around me, but I didn't have

00:57:13.484 --> 00:57:16.804
anyone to fully explain it to me in a way that I could understand.

00:57:17.524 --> 00:57:22.844
So for a whole variety of reasons, I ended up going to college on the East Coast.

00:57:23.004 --> 00:57:26.264
I went to an all-women's college named Bryn Mawr, Anassa kata,

00:57:26.424 --> 00:57:28.284
to any listeners who went to Bryn Mawr.

00:57:29.124 --> 00:57:35.204
And I took my first sociology class the spring of my first year there.

00:57:35.244 --> 00:57:38.364
And I knew I was going to be a psychology major. For a long time,

00:57:38.384 --> 00:57:42.624
I had wanted to be a psychologist, as young people who've gone through some

00:57:42.624 --> 00:57:46.544
challenging things often do want to end up being therapists and counselors.

00:57:47.664 --> 00:57:51.384
But I took the sociology course, because my friend Louis was taking it,

00:57:51.484 --> 00:57:54.004
and he just loved the professor, Judy Porter, who I knew.

00:57:54.224 --> 00:58:02.324
She was an old family friend of my parents, and I was blown away by what I heard in that class.

00:58:02.524 --> 00:58:11.164
She explained my life to me in terms that I could hear and understand and metabolize.

00:58:11.304 --> 00:58:15.204
She described how race and class function as systems.

00:58:15.504 --> 00:58:25.004
She talked and gender, and she just spoke sociology so fluently and in such

00:58:25.004 --> 00:58:27.064
a way that it was tied to our lives.

00:58:27.064 --> 00:58:30.804
One of the projects that we took on, that I took on in that first class,

00:58:31.024 --> 00:58:34.204
was I was given the budget of someone who was on.

00:58:35.379 --> 00:58:41.719
Food aid, and I had to go shop with that amount of money for,

00:58:41.959 --> 00:58:47.079
you know, for me or a family of four for a week just to get a sense of how far

00:58:47.079 --> 00:58:48.539
those dollars would stretch.

00:58:48.879 --> 00:58:52.679
That's the kind of hands-on professor that Dr. Porter was.

00:58:52.879 --> 00:58:57.999
And I immediately, it just, I immediately understood.

00:58:58.219 --> 00:59:03.039
I immediately understood the framework and the language of sociology in a way

00:59:03.039 --> 00:59:06.899
that I had not understood a lot of other things and ended up adding it as a major.

00:59:07.919 --> 00:59:12.019
And when I left college, I still thought that I was going to be a psychologist.

00:59:12.019 --> 00:59:15.239
I had gotten sober after my sophomore year.

00:59:15.659 --> 00:59:20.859
So I've been sober for 36 years and thought that I was going to be some sort

00:59:20.859 --> 00:59:26.799
of chemical dependency counselor and moved to New Mexico for no apparent reason,

00:59:26.799 --> 00:59:28.579
except I felt drawn to it.

00:59:28.659 --> 00:59:31.139
And that was a great place for me to go and for me to land.

00:59:31.419 --> 00:59:36.339
And while I was working at a home for people with major mental illness,

00:59:36.339 --> 00:59:38.019
I was working the overnight shift.

00:59:38.399 --> 00:59:43.179
I turned on the news, you know, I'd arrive at 10 and count out the pills and

00:59:43.179 --> 00:59:45.239
say goodnight to everybody and they'd go to bed.

00:59:45.379 --> 00:59:50.779
And I would just turn on late night television. And I found out that the officers

00:59:50.779 --> 00:59:56.419
who beat Rodney King had been acquitted and that there were uprisings that were

00:59:56.419 --> 00:59:59.979
happening in Los Angeles that had started a few hours earlier.

01:00:01.198 --> 01:00:05.578
And something happened to me that night. I understood, I was just talking with

01:00:05.578 --> 01:00:06.838
somebody about this earlier today.

01:00:07.138 --> 01:00:13.838
I understood in that moment that this was a series of decisions white people

01:00:13.838 --> 01:00:15.898
had made led to this outcome.

01:00:16.338 --> 01:00:21.758
My people, that this was a white people problem that I was witnessing.

01:00:22.198 --> 01:00:25.378
It may be other things or not, that's for other people to say,

01:00:25.498 --> 01:00:28.198
but I understood in that moment that this was a white people problem,

01:00:28.498 --> 01:00:32.978
that I was a white person, that I had a voice that other white people might

01:00:32.978 --> 01:00:37.898
be able to hear more easily than they could hear some other voices of people

01:00:37.898 --> 01:00:39.538
of color, people of the global majority.

01:00:39.838 --> 01:00:42.998
And I decided that that was what I was going to do.

01:00:43.458 --> 01:00:46.798
It really was almost a conversion experience that night.

01:00:47.278 --> 01:00:52.898
So that's what I did. I changed, I decided to become a sociologist instead of a psychologist.

01:00:53.538 --> 01:00:57.918
I applied to graduate school and went to University of Wisconsin-Madison.

01:00:58.098 --> 01:01:03.598
And while I was there, I worked with and was a teaching assistant for a professor

01:01:03.598 --> 01:01:08.238
named Joel Rogers, who had recently at that point won a MacArthur grant,

01:01:08.398 --> 01:01:09.818
a genius grant as they're known,

01:01:09.998 --> 01:01:13.998
for his work on high road policy and his focus in local government.

01:01:14.398 --> 01:01:18.178
And he made a very compelling case that local government is a powerful place

01:01:18.178 --> 01:01:19.318
to do social change work.

01:01:19.398 --> 01:01:23.098
And I took him so much at his word that instead of doing my dissertation,

01:01:23.098 --> 01:01:28.498
I was working on local political races and eventually moved back to Minneapolis

01:01:28.498 --> 01:01:32.038
and worked there in, you know,

01:01:32.198 --> 01:01:38.058
local government and progressive movement and eventually was asked to run for city council. And I did.

01:01:38.438 --> 01:01:44.158
When I moved back to Minneapolis, I moved to the white wealthy part of Minneapolis,

01:01:44.218 --> 01:01:47.578
in part because that's where my people were and that's where my leadership could

01:01:47.578 --> 01:01:49.578
be most effective on the issues I cared about.

01:01:49.898 --> 01:01:52.518
And eventually when I ran for mayor, I was explicit.

01:01:53.098 --> 01:01:57.818
In my platform and explicit as I campaigned that I was campaigning on a platform

01:01:57.818 --> 01:01:59.438
of racial equity. But that's how it happened.

01:02:00.514 --> 01:02:08.934
Okay. So now during your tenure as mayor, there were two high-profile police

01:02:08.934 --> 01:02:11.374
shootings in the Twin Cities area.

01:02:12.254 --> 01:02:19.654
Jamar Clark was in 2015, and Philando Castile was near St. Paul in 2016.

01:02:20.154 --> 01:02:24.634
So how did the Clark shooting, well, I have two questions.

01:02:24.914 --> 01:02:28.634
How did the Clark shooting impact your tenure while you were there?

01:02:29.314 --> 01:02:34.194
And what would you have done differently in dealing with the Minneapolis Police

01:02:34.194 --> 01:02:38.174
Department now that you've been away from,

01:02:38.734 --> 01:02:43.654
because, and I ask that question because, you know, I think about when I was

01:02:43.654 --> 01:02:48.074
in the legislature, should I have taken a vote on this particular thing?

01:02:48.254 --> 01:02:50.694
Should I have been more vocal about this particular issue?

01:02:51.194 --> 01:02:55.814
So, you know, you just kind of reflect in Monday Morning Quarterback yourself. So,

01:02:56.643 --> 01:03:01.103
Based on that, how did the Clark shooting impact your tenure as far as your

01:03:01.103 --> 01:03:03.723
agenda and what you wanted to do as far as racial equity?

01:03:04.083 --> 01:03:08.403
And what would you have done differently in dealing with the police department in hindsight?

01:03:09.003 --> 01:03:15.543
When Jamar Clark was shot and killed by officers Schwarzenegger and Rigenburg in November of 2015,

01:03:16.443 --> 01:03:23.443
following that, there was an 18-day occupation of the grounds of the 4th Precinct

01:03:23.443 --> 01:03:25.083
near where he had been killed.

01:03:26.163 --> 01:03:28.823
And managing through that was one of the

01:03:28.823 --> 01:03:31.903
most difficult things i've done as an adult getting

01:03:31.903 --> 01:03:34.923
to a peaceful end was one of the most difficult

01:03:34.923 --> 01:03:38.283
things i've done as an adult one of the most important things i've done as an

01:03:38.283 --> 01:03:45.403
adult and one of the most divisive things that has happened on my watch as an

01:03:45.403 --> 01:03:52.663
adult i you know i i understood i had come out of the community it was a very difficult time.

01:03:52.943 --> 01:03:56.443
There was another, I will add a third high-profile shooting,

01:03:56.663 --> 01:03:58.263
Justine Damon being shot and

01:03:58.263 --> 01:04:03.923
killed by Officer Noor in 2017 was also on my watch and very challenging.

01:04:04.703 --> 01:04:08.983
And so I did my best to govern well, to keep the city from burning down,

01:04:09.603 --> 01:04:13.923
to use, I was one of the first mayors to use 21st century policing principles

01:04:13.923 --> 01:04:17.423
to try and guide us through that difficult moment.

01:04:18.523 --> 01:04:24.623
And there were many advocates and activists and people on the left who were

01:04:24.623 --> 01:04:30.523
deeply unhappy with how I handled that moment because I was the head of the

01:04:30.523 --> 01:04:32.623
chain of command of the Minneapolis Police Department.

01:04:32.623 --> 01:04:39.743
And I knew that if I just railed against the police, that I would completely

01:04:39.743 --> 01:04:44.923
lose them and that it would not be useful for anyone. And,

01:04:45.822 --> 01:04:50.942
You know, in 2020, we saw what happens when you lose the police in a moment

01:04:50.942 --> 01:04:53.702
like that. They don't respond well.

01:04:54.042 --> 01:04:56.962
And so I governed the best I could through that.

01:04:57.142 --> 01:05:02.382
I'm proud that there was a peaceable ending, if not a negotiated ending to that conflict.

01:05:02.382 --> 01:05:09.562
But for the next two years of my tenure, protesters showed up to my public appearances.

01:05:09.562 --> 01:05:12.682
I was surrounded on stages. It was very scary.

01:05:13.002 --> 01:05:16.022
I mean, just personally, I understood.

01:05:16.522 --> 01:05:20.262
I understood what was happening. That doesn't mean it was supposed to be scary, and it was.

01:05:21.362 --> 01:05:26.382
And it was a very tumultuous term. But I navigated through that pretty well.

01:05:26.502 --> 01:05:35.162
And then, you know, in July of 2017, African Somali heritage police officers

01:05:35.162 --> 01:05:39.922
shot and killed a white woman named Justine Damond in the whitest,

01:05:40.042 --> 01:05:41.482
richest part of Minneapolis.

01:05:41.482 --> 01:05:46.262
And, you know, the white folks, understandably, got freaked out.

01:05:46.922 --> 01:05:53.262
And the election was a few months later, and I lost by about 600 votes. So it had a big impact.

01:05:53.562 --> 01:05:57.802
I don't, I understood at the time that,

01:05:58.858 --> 01:06:02.658
You know, I'm a person in recovery. I would literally look myself in the eye

01:06:02.658 --> 01:06:07.398
in the morning and ask myself if I was willing to do what I needed to do to

01:06:07.398 --> 01:06:12.038
do right by the city and keep everybody as safe as possible and get through

01:06:12.038 --> 01:06:14.918
this well and give ourselves the option of doing better,

01:06:15.138 --> 01:06:19.478
even if it cost me politically, personally, professionally.

01:06:19.478 --> 01:06:23.358
And then I would look myself in the eye at the end of the day to see if I could

01:06:23.358 --> 01:06:27.798
because if I couldn't look myself in the eye, I had even bigger problems than losing a job.

01:06:27.978 --> 01:06:30.478
I also, my sobriety would be in jeopardy.

01:06:31.718 --> 01:06:38.598
And you asked what, looking back, I had already notoriously gotten into it with

01:06:38.598 --> 01:06:44.578
the police union, you know, from the very start of my tenure and that continued through the end.

01:06:44.578 --> 01:06:51.778
And, you know, I did my best to show the world how the police federation operates

01:06:51.778 --> 01:06:52.958
in the city of Minneapolis.

01:06:54.058 --> 01:06:58.018
I called the head of the union a jackass at one point. No, I did not call him

01:06:58.018 --> 01:07:01.518
a jackass. I said he exhibited jackass behaviors, which I think is true.

01:07:01.698 --> 01:07:05.758
I don't know him well enough to know if he is a jackass, though I have my suspicions.

01:07:05.758 --> 01:07:13.518
So, you know, I learned a great deal about how race functions by having to govern

01:07:13.518 --> 01:07:19.258
through those moments, doing my best to have integrity. I could see what my

01:07:19.258 --> 01:07:20.438
neighbors could not see.

01:07:20.678 --> 01:07:26.958
My white neighbors could not see. I could see the inside of the systems and

01:07:26.958 --> 01:07:29.938
how they function and why they function to get the results they do.

01:07:29.938 --> 01:07:34.238
And I did my best to put policies in place that made those changes.

01:07:34.738 --> 01:07:42.338
I, you know, some of the policies that the chief at the time and I put in place were instrumental in.

01:07:43.689 --> 01:07:48.209
Well, I put body cameras in place, and those were instrumental in the Derek

01:07:48.209 --> 01:07:55.549
Chauvin conviction and in the settling of the suits against the officers who

01:07:55.549 --> 01:07:56.829
watched and didn't do anything.

01:07:57.189 --> 01:08:03.109
So, you know, I would communicate differently than I did around Jamar Clark.

01:08:03.289 --> 01:08:08.529
And I did communicate differently when Justine—I had learned that lesson when

01:08:08.529 --> 01:08:10.129
Justine Damon was murdered.

01:08:10.129 --> 01:08:15.629
And that had its own problems because I had learned the lesson when a black

01:08:15.629 --> 01:08:19.729
man was shot but I was implementing a lesson when a white woman was killed and

01:08:19.729 --> 01:08:23.469
that understandably had terrible optics but what else could I do?

01:08:23.609 --> 01:08:26.909
I had learned the lesson so I implemented it. Gotcha. Okay.

01:08:27.669 --> 01:08:33.189
And you know, it's not an easy position to be in.

01:08:33.689 --> 01:08:37.629
I remember when some of my friends wanted me to be run for Mayor Jackson.

01:08:38.229 --> 01:08:42.849
I told them that No matter what the vote total was on election day,

01:08:42.849 --> 01:08:48.429
if I won, the minute I got sworn in, half of the city would be after me for something.

01:08:49.009 --> 01:08:54.509
And so I don't envy anybody that's ever been a mayor of any city, no matter how big it is.

01:08:55.109 --> 01:08:59.689
But I appreciate your candor on that. And, you know, like I know people,

01:09:00.049 --> 01:09:06.269
it's hard when you've done it and then you look back and you're like, you know.

01:09:06.669 --> 01:09:08.909
So, yeah, I appreciate that answer.

01:09:10.309 --> 01:09:16.049
Now, you're not in Minneapolis now, right? Currently, I'm in the Washington, D.C. area.

01:09:16.549 --> 01:09:18.729
Yeah, that's what I thought. I thought you had moved.

01:09:19.849 --> 01:09:25.309
But you don't live in Minneapolis now, but you do follow what's been going on.

01:09:25.429 --> 01:09:28.369
I know you followed the tragic events that have occurred.

01:09:28.589 --> 01:09:32.929
What is your thoughts about what's happened in Minneapolis this year?

01:09:33.749 --> 01:09:39.849
Well, I mean, the on-the-street executions of Alex Preddy and Renee Goode were...

01:09:41.727 --> 01:09:48.387
Shocking for everyone. I think it was especially shocking for white people to

01:09:48.387 --> 01:09:53.027
understand, first of all, that it's possible to put your life on the line for

01:09:53.027 --> 01:09:55.787
things you believe in and to protect your neighbors.

01:09:56.587 --> 01:10:00.887
Second, that the system will execute you for your proximity to that,

01:10:01.087 --> 01:10:04.727
especially when we're descending into authoritarianism.

01:10:06.347 --> 01:10:12.967
That, you know, I think a lot of people are inured to this idea that Black and

01:10:12.967 --> 01:10:20.107
brown people are seen as expendable by our systems because our systems were

01:10:20.107 --> 01:10:24.787
designed for white people at the expense of Black and brown people.

01:10:24.787 --> 01:10:27.087
And people of the global majority.

01:10:27.507 --> 01:10:30.907
But I think this idea that.

01:10:32.499 --> 01:10:39.099
Standing up against that can be risky for anyone was a shock to a whole bunch of people.

01:10:39.559 --> 01:10:45.299
And I know that two-thirds of Schwerner, Cheney, and Goodman were white men,

01:10:45.619 --> 01:10:52.099
you know, that those executions shocked the world in the 1960s at the time.

01:10:52.099 --> 01:11:00.079
And that white people have been part of every major movement on behalf of racial

01:11:00.079 --> 01:11:02.799
justice in this country from the beginning.

01:11:03.339 --> 01:11:09.599
And there are many who put their lives on the line. But we aren't taught that as white people.

01:11:09.859 --> 01:11:15.839
We aren't given that picture of whiteness because that is a picture of humanness

01:11:15.839 --> 01:11:20.279
more than it's a picture of whiteness. people whose humanity overrides their

01:11:20.279 --> 01:11:21.919
racial conditioning as white people.

01:11:22.339 --> 01:11:28.419
And so we aren't taught that because if white people's humanity could consistently

01:11:28.419 --> 01:11:33.319
override our racial conditioning, the racist systems that we have would not be able to stand.

01:11:33.659 --> 01:11:43.599
So it was shocking, but it was also a real way to talk about Trump's authoritarian agenda.

01:11:43.879 --> 01:11:47.299
What he's doing makes no sense through the lens of democracy.

01:11:47.579 --> 01:11:50.739
People who are trying to understand the Trump administration through the lens

01:11:50.739 --> 01:11:56.319
of democracy are really having to twist themselves into pretzels to try and explain it.

01:11:56.659 --> 01:12:01.119
But once you sort of like at the optometrist's office, you click it and you

01:12:01.119 --> 01:12:02.859
click it and all of a sudden you can see it clearly.

01:12:02.979 --> 01:12:07.099
If you click to the lens of authoritarianism, everything that's happening makes

01:12:07.099 --> 01:12:08.239
complete and total sense.

01:12:08.639 --> 01:12:14.939
And you can actually predict what happens next. So So I think it was atrocious

01:12:14.939 --> 01:12:16.599
from that human standpoint.

01:12:16.899 --> 01:12:21.139
Now, what is notable about that is much of my work, as I've said,

01:12:21.259 --> 01:12:24.259
for the last 35 years has been thinking about white people and what it takes

01:12:24.259 --> 01:12:28.359
to enroll us in the work of racial equity and racial justice. And.

01:12:29.385 --> 01:12:34.825
What was notable about what happened in Minnesota is that there were a lot of

01:12:34.825 --> 01:12:40.085
white people who immediately understood the assignment and acted on the assignment

01:12:40.085 --> 01:12:41.965
to protect their neighbors.

01:12:41.965 --> 01:12:48.225
That is unusual, historically, that that number of people came together that

01:12:48.225 --> 01:12:51.705
quickly to do the right thing, to feed their neighbors, house their neighbors,

01:12:52.085 --> 01:12:55.605
hide their neighbors from attack from the federal government,

01:12:55.745 --> 01:12:57.825
to put their lives on the line to do it.

01:12:57.825 --> 01:13:01.605
That is an example for the nation of what's possible.

01:13:01.985 --> 01:13:06.885
Not that we always have to put our lives on the line, but that we can understand the assignment.

01:13:07.405 --> 01:13:14.045
They understood, and many of these are people I know, they understand that if

01:13:14.045 --> 01:13:15.445
you're going after this neighbor,

01:13:15.605 --> 01:13:21.905
you're going after me, and I'm going to act like it before you go after me or

01:13:21.905 --> 01:13:23.605
while you go after me. Yeah.

01:13:24.285 --> 01:13:28.845
So that really leads to my next question, because you wrote in Medium that since

01:13:28.845 --> 01:13:34.485
1992, your mission is to enroll white people into ending racism,

01:13:34.485 --> 01:13:39.105
and your role in public service was just a tool to make progress.

01:13:39.365 --> 01:13:45.665
So my question is, do you see any tangible progress take root? And it sounds like.

01:13:46.409 --> 01:13:52.569
Based on that last answer that you have seen. I mean, you asked if I've seen

01:13:52.569 --> 01:13:55.589
progress in, I think, the last 35 years.

01:13:55.769 --> 01:13:59.949
I won't necessarily claim it on behalf of the work I've done in specific.

01:14:01.149 --> 01:14:07.409
One of the enduring questions that I have, and I have a book proposal to ask

01:14:07.409 --> 01:14:12.269
and give part of my answer to this question, is we keep seeing these renewed

01:14:12.269 --> 01:14:15.229
waves of white people's interest in racial equity.

01:14:15.229 --> 01:14:21.489
We saw one certainly after George Floyd was murdered, but you can go back. It's cyclical.

01:14:21.629 --> 01:14:24.989
It's about every five to seven years. There's this big wave of white people's

01:14:24.989 --> 01:14:28.809
interest in racial equity change that then recedes.

01:14:29.029 --> 01:14:29.769
It, it, it.

01:14:30.645 --> 01:14:34.665
Ebbs back, you know. It flows forward and then it ebbs back.

01:14:34.805 --> 01:14:38.285
And why is it that it ebbs back? Why is it? Because I know so many of these

01:14:38.285 --> 01:14:42.205
people and I know how much they actually do care.

01:14:42.425 --> 01:14:45.925
So what is it that's going on there? That is an enduring question.

01:14:46.145 --> 01:14:50.185
Why is it that we surge forward and then halt?

01:14:50.825 --> 01:14:55.105
And there's a whole bunch that I think goes into the answer to that question.

01:14:56.285 --> 01:15:03.145
But I will note that the systems are really well set up to absorb the revelations

01:15:03.145 --> 01:15:05.565
of white people at the pace that they're happening.

01:15:06.105 --> 01:15:12.365
The systems can absorb some number of white people understanding how the system

01:15:12.365 --> 01:15:13.925
of race works, including our own.

01:15:14.105 --> 01:15:17.445
We are part of our racial conditioning is many of us, most of us,

01:15:17.525 --> 01:15:20.865
I would say, are made very, very ignorant about race and how it functions and

01:15:20.865 --> 01:15:22.345
how whiteness functions in the world.

01:15:22.525 --> 01:15:24.645
By design, we're made very ignorant about that.

01:15:25.005 --> 01:15:29.385
As children, as we learn the norms of whiteness, one of the norms is don't ask,

01:15:29.585 --> 01:15:31.185
don't ask and don't talk.

01:15:32.225 --> 01:15:36.305
So the system can absorb us opening up our eyes.

01:15:36.445 --> 01:15:41.685
The systems can absorb us understanding that it's a systemic problem and not

01:15:41.685 --> 01:15:44.585
just a personal set of feelings and behaviors.

01:15:45.825 --> 01:15:52.765
And what is needed is to have the number of white people not only understanding

01:15:52.765 --> 01:15:54.925
what's happening, but taking action on it.

01:15:55.025 --> 01:16:02.085
And then having the numbers of us doing that exceed the system's capacity to

01:16:02.085 --> 01:16:03.305
absorb our revelations,

01:16:03.485 --> 01:16:11.485
because then we can effectively put our shoulder to the wheel of actual anti-racist policy.

01:16:11.885 --> 01:16:14.525
All right. So I've got a few more questions. I'm going to try to,

01:16:15.414 --> 01:16:18.974
Well, there's one I can't make quick because I'm quoting you on something.

01:16:19.214 --> 01:16:25.254
In a 2020 New York Times op-ed, you wrote, White liberals, despite believing

01:16:25.254 --> 01:16:30.314
we are saying and doing the right things, have resisted the systemic changes

01:16:30.314 --> 01:16:32.054
our cities have needed for decades.

01:16:32.294 --> 01:16:37.814
We have mostly settled for illusions of change, like testing pilot programs

01:16:37.814 --> 01:16:39.834
and funding volunteer opportunities.

01:16:40.394 --> 01:16:45.774
These efforts make us feel better about racism, but fundamentally changed little

01:16:45.774 --> 01:16:50.374
for the communities of color, whose disadvantages often come from the hoarding

01:16:50.374 --> 01:16:52.994
of advantage by mostly white neighborhoods.

01:16:53.334 --> 01:16:57.394
So my question to you based off that is, do you still believe that white liberals

01:16:57.394 --> 01:16:59.254
in America are blocking change?

01:17:00.214 --> 01:17:05.754
Oh, yes, absolutely. In part because I believe whiteness as a system is.

01:17:06.907 --> 01:17:10.967
Is problematic wherever it finds itself, left, right, center,

01:17:11.187 --> 01:17:13.667
wherever it is. Whiteness is a problem.

01:17:14.067 --> 01:17:20.987
And part of the reason I came to that belief or that observation was because

01:17:20.987 --> 01:17:25.227
you can look at most of America's large cities,

01:17:25.427 --> 01:17:31.467
most of America's major cities have mostly been governed by Democrats for the last 50, 60 years.

01:17:31.947 --> 01:17:36.567
And outcomes for people of the global majority in those cities are pretty much

01:17:36.567 --> 01:17:38.987
the same as they were 50, 60 years ago.

01:17:39.907 --> 01:17:44.747
That, you know, things that materially relative to white people in particular,

01:17:45.027 --> 01:17:49.487
things have not changed all that much for people of the global majority in American cities.

01:17:50.047 --> 01:17:58.527
And that led me down, that observation led me down a path to thinking about what is going on?

01:17:58.727 --> 01:18:01.667
You know, this question I have, What is going on with us?

01:18:02.087 --> 01:18:06.187
Because if I could understand better what was going on, I could understand better

01:18:06.187 --> 01:18:07.707
what we can do to change it.

01:18:08.027 --> 01:18:12.527
And what I came to understand was that we are conditioned as white people,

01:18:12.887 --> 01:18:18.887
that there's on the left part of the way the whiteness functions is there's

01:18:18.887 --> 01:18:25.047
a big cognitive dissonance between how we think the world should be and how it is and how.

01:18:26.145 --> 01:18:29.765
And what we think we should be doing and what we are or are not doing.

01:18:29.765 --> 01:18:31.865
We have a lot of cognitive dissonance.

01:18:32.085 --> 01:18:39.205
And the push of white racial conditioning is to resolve that cognitive dissonance

01:18:39.205 --> 01:18:41.825
by feeling better, but not by doing better.

01:18:42.385 --> 01:18:50.205
Because, you know, we want to feel better, so we do things that feel like they

01:18:50.205 --> 01:18:52.105
might have do something.

01:18:52.385 --> 01:18:59.085
But if we are thrust into actual policy change that would bring materially different

01:18:59.085 --> 01:19:05.785
outcomes for people of color, then we have to face change and change management.

01:19:05.905 --> 01:19:09.485
And nobody likes change that much. And we have to face our fears.

01:19:09.645 --> 01:19:14.645
We have to face the lies that we're told about what happens in a racially equitable

01:19:14.645 --> 01:19:19.545
future or the incorrect conclusions we've drawn about what might look like in

01:19:19.545 --> 01:19:23.725
a racially equitable future or what it might look like in the transition to one for us.

01:19:23.725 --> 01:19:26.565
We have to grapple with all of that.

01:19:26.705 --> 01:19:33.845
And we would rather feel better than do better in part because we're scared.

01:19:35.505 --> 01:19:41.765
There's a certain part of white racial conditioning is to be made scared about racial change.

01:19:43.065 --> 01:19:49.285
So do I still believe that? Yes, I sure do. I saw it as council member and I saw it as mayor.

01:19:49.645 --> 01:19:55.525
You know, that the example I like to give is there would be a whole bunch of people,

01:19:56.248 --> 01:20:02.948
white folks, wealthy white folks who really, really loved the summer intern

01:20:02.948 --> 01:20:08.848
jobs program that my predecessor started. And it's a great program and it should exist.

01:20:09.028 --> 01:20:12.588
It's for low-income kids, particularly low-income kids of color.

01:20:12.728 --> 01:20:17.248
They get placed in a business internship of some kind for the summer.

01:20:17.388 --> 01:20:21.128
It's great. It gives people a job. It gives people the start of a network and

01:20:21.128 --> 01:20:22.408
a mentor. It's wonderful.

01:20:22.928 --> 01:20:27.888
It's also designed to accommodate young people to the system as it is.

01:20:27.988 --> 01:20:32.088
It's not designed to change the system in any way besides their presence in it.

01:20:33.228 --> 01:20:35.848
And I saw those same folks,

01:20:36.813 --> 01:20:44.413
lose their minds when the school board would propose changes to school funding

01:20:44.413 --> 01:20:49.833
that were designed to get better educational outcomes for kids of color.

01:20:50.773 --> 01:20:58.573
And that's the example that I come back to is this thing does not disrupt the

01:20:58.573 --> 01:21:00.793
system as it is, but it does make us feel better.

01:21:00.893 --> 01:21:03.733
This other thing is designed to actually disrupt the system as it is,

01:21:03.793 --> 01:21:05.013
whether it's a good plan or not.

01:21:05.173 --> 01:21:08.873
That's what it's designed to do. And these same families would just,

01:21:09.033 --> 01:21:10.753
and they wouldn't offer an alternative.

01:21:11.193 --> 01:21:14.173
They would just object to it. And I think,

01:21:14.333 --> 01:21:20.253
and I could just see that white racial conditioning at play and that in most

01:21:20.253 --> 01:21:23.733
of America's major cities, it's white progressives and liberals who are standing

01:21:23.733 --> 01:21:28.013
in the way of anti-racist policy change for the reasons I just outlined and more.

01:21:28.013 --> 01:21:34.553
So, is that an example of a term that you use, white sodality?

01:21:34.933 --> 01:21:40.753
You know, yes. I have taken to using this phrase, white sodality.

01:21:40.873 --> 01:21:44.493
A sodality is a group that comes together for the benefits of its members.

01:21:45.553 --> 01:21:48.373
And the word when I when I'm

01:21:48.373 --> 01:21:51.413
trying to talk to white people the word white supremacy is a

01:21:51.413 --> 01:21:54.313
non-starter even though I understand that people

01:21:54.313 --> 01:21:58.313
are trying to redefine it as just talking about the system of white supremacy

01:21:58.313 --> 01:22:04.133
it is so linked to history of white hoods and we have done such a good job of

01:22:04.133 --> 01:22:09.433
telling white people that since the civil rights movement that racism is a personal

01:22:09.433 --> 01:22:13.933
feeling and a personal set of behaviors if we don't feel that way and act that way then we aren't,

01:22:14.493 --> 01:22:18.733
engaging with racism in any way. And so...

01:22:19.358 --> 01:22:24.378
It feels very personal if somebody says white supremacy. And I've been in dozens

01:22:24.378 --> 01:22:29.258
of rooms facilitating pretty traditional DI curricula at this point.

01:22:29.278 --> 01:22:31.058
And I've seen it happen over and over.

01:22:31.238 --> 01:22:34.978
So I don't like using that phrase, but we need something.

01:22:35.178 --> 01:22:39.138
And the phrase whiteness is okay. I talk about whiteness as a system.

01:22:39.298 --> 01:22:44.198
I think that's more common. But I was invited to think of a phrase that would

01:22:44.198 --> 01:22:46.718
encompass all of those structural,

01:22:46.958 --> 01:22:54.218
systemic, and cultural aspects of whiteness and of race that didn't have the

01:22:54.218 --> 01:22:56.398
historical baggage of the phrase white supremacy.

01:22:56.398 --> 01:22:59.358
And so I use the phrase white sodality to talk about

01:22:59.358 --> 01:23:08.878
that bundle of culture and norms and systemic setup inside all of our systems

01:23:08.878 --> 01:23:14.598
that are designed to make people think that people of European heritage are

01:23:14.598 --> 01:23:18.138
superior in some way, including us, we're supposed to think that,

01:23:18.558 --> 01:23:23.118
and those systems are to get better outcomes for white people at the expense

01:23:23.118 --> 01:23:24.938
of people of color. Excuse me.

01:23:25.138 --> 01:23:29.778
So there's this guy running for the U.S. Senate in Kentucky named Andy Barr,

01:23:29.838 --> 01:23:36.278
and he had a blue commercial and he said it's a sin not to be white.

01:23:36.858 --> 01:23:39.598
I mean, it's not a sin to be white.

01:23:40.432 --> 01:23:46.092
And he refers to the diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives as dumb, evil, indoctrination.

01:23:46.592 --> 01:23:51.252
So how has that mindset been a challenge to the work that you do?

01:23:51.452 --> 01:23:54.912
That mindset is in part the reason for the work that I do.

01:23:56.272 --> 01:24:04.672
Because one of the things that white people do with one another is we fall into, we're using,

01:24:05.512 --> 01:24:10.672
if we're inside the system of race and racism, what you're supposed to do inside

01:24:10.672 --> 01:24:14.472
that system is take somebody's phenotype,

01:24:14.672 --> 01:24:17.612
like what they look like, their skin color or whatever it is,

01:24:17.732 --> 01:24:21.672
and we're supposed to attach characteristics.

01:24:21.952 --> 01:24:25.692
We're supposed to divide up the full array of human characteristics.

01:24:25.692 --> 01:24:32.032
We're supposed to divide them up and then assign and exaggerate them based on race, right?

01:24:32.112 --> 01:24:36.252
This thing that we've made up based on skin color that is completely consequential,

01:24:36.412 --> 01:24:37.872
but also completely made up.

01:24:38.532 --> 01:24:42.652
And what we're supposed to do is we're supposed to conflate the race,

01:24:42.952 --> 01:24:45.132
you know, the phenotype, the skin color.

01:24:45.252 --> 01:24:50.632
We're supposed to conflate that and wrap it around all the, you know,

01:24:50.692 --> 01:24:55.972
the small bundle of human characteristics, good and bad, that that group is allowed to have, right?

01:24:56.252 --> 01:25:02.032
That is what racism does, right? That I'm not going to sit here and recite racist

01:25:02.032 --> 01:25:03.132
tropes and stereotypes.

01:25:03.352 --> 01:25:06.612
You know what I'm talking about, right? That we white people are trained to

01:25:06.612 --> 01:25:10.972
think of Black people this way and Latino people this way and Native people that way.

01:25:11.652 --> 01:25:14.792
But we also think of each other that way. That.

01:25:15.622 --> 01:25:22.862
We wrap up, we take a person's full humanity as just off the table.

01:25:23.062 --> 01:25:27.062
In a system of race, a person's full humanity is no longer considered.

01:25:27.062 --> 01:25:29.642
And we do that with each other as white people.

01:25:30.002 --> 01:25:35.802
So we conflate the racial conditioning we've gone through as white people with

01:25:35.802 --> 01:25:37.702
who we are as full human beings.

01:25:38.002 --> 01:25:43.462
And unless we disentangle our full breadth of humanity,

01:25:43.682 --> 01:25:46.982
our access to every good human characteristic that's possible,

01:25:47.202 --> 01:25:51.342
as well as every negative characteristic that's possible, that all of us have

01:25:51.342 --> 01:25:54.022
access to all the breadth of human characteristics.

01:25:54.262 --> 01:25:58.522
Race is designed to cut that, winnow that down for us and makes us confused

01:25:58.522 --> 01:25:59.702
about ourselves and each other.

01:26:00.142 --> 01:26:04.642
If we're conflating people's full humanity with the racial conditioning and

01:26:04.642 --> 01:26:08.582
lessons we're taught as white people, if those two things are completely wrapped around one another,

01:26:08.862 --> 01:26:15.302
any criticism of white people's racial conditioning or the systems of whiteness

01:26:15.302 --> 01:26:18.742
feel like a criticism of our humanity.

01:26:19.562 --> 01:26:24.202
And so one really important thing I believe that we get to do with each other

01:26:24.202 --> 01:26:28.982
as white people is disentangle that for each other, that we are fully human,

01:26:29.342 --> 01:26:33.882
that our humanity is under a layer of social conditioning,

01:26:34.062 --> 01:26:37.842
but that's not the same thing as being absorbed by our racial conditioning,

01:26:37.842 --> 01:26:44.922
and that we can free up the lessons we learned about how to be white.

01:26:44.922 --> 01:26:49.962
We can free our minds so we can think more clearly about ourselves in the world.

01:26:50.142 --> 01:26:55.042
So in a world where those things are conflated, anybody hearing a critique of

01:26:55.042 --> 01:26:58.482
the systems of whiteness feels like it's a critique on them as human beings,

01:26:58.482 --> 01:27:00.882
and they react very, very defensively.

01:27:01.302 --> 01:27:08.502
And on the right, they have pathologized that. They have willfully misunderstood,

01:27:08.502 --> 01:27:14.042
I think, that people are talking about systems and not individuals.

01:27:15.406 --> 01:27:17.746
But it feels very personal to

01:27:17.746 --> 01:27:21.026
white people, and it feels personal to white people on the left as well.

01:27:21.206 --> 01:27:27.246
That's not what's intended, but that's part of, I feel, my work is to help disentangle

01:27:27.246 --> 01:27:31.626
those two things so white people can hear more clearly and take more clear action

01:27:31.626 --> 01:27:36.106
so that we can get rid of racism in the world. Yeah.

01:27:36.826 --> 01:27:43.646
All right. So this is a question I noticed that you ask, or it's a goal that you have set.

01:27:44.406 --> 01:27:50.546
So what is in it for white people to do the work of anti-racism?

01:27:51.226 --> 01:27:57.206
Well, I love that question, as you know, because, and the organization Surge,

01:27:57.366 --> 01:28:03.946
showing up for racial justice, is the largest national organization of white people,

01:28:04.206 --> 01:28:06.426
organizing white people around issues of racial justice.

01:28:06.446 --> 01:28:09.286
And they talk about the shared stake model.

01:28:09.986 --> 01:28:16.686
Dr. Heather McGee talks about the fallacy of the zero-sum model in her wonderful book, The Sum of Us.

01:28:17.486 --> 01:28:21.006
We are taught that race is a zero-sum game.

01:28:21.206 --> 01:28:26.246
We are taught that it's a charity, it's an act of charity for white people to

01:28:26.246 --> 01:28:32.906
do anything around racial equity, because if racism were to go away,

01:28:33.186 --> 01:28:35.426
white people would lose so much.

01:28:36.273 --> 01:28:39.053
And I disagree vehemently with that.

01:28:39.213 --> 01:28:44.773
I think the charity model is designed to be within the problem of racism because

01:28:44.773 --> 01:28:50.293
it obscures the fact that we are taught as white people that the comparison

01:28:50.293 --> 01:28:55.613
set to use is similarly situated people of color, particularly black people.

01:28:55.613 --> 01:29:00.673
That if we're doing, if I as a middle-class white person, I'm doing okay relative

01:29:00.673 --> 01:29:03.153
to middle-class black people, then I'm doing okay.

01:29:03.733 --> 01:29:09.133
A, no, we're not. B, that's a terrible way to look at the world.

01:29:09.313 --> 01:29:14.853
But C, the real comparison set for white people is a world without racism.

01:29:15.233 --> 01:29:22.093
And in a world without racism, white people are doing materially better as well

01:29:22.093 --> 01:29:23.933
as emotionally and spiritually better.

01:29:24.453 --> 01:29:30.033
Our outcomes in a world without racism, white people would be living longer, have better health.

01:29:30.273 --> 01:29:35.113
There'd be more money in our pockets. Our kids would be getting better educations.

01:29:35.353 --> 01:29:42.373
We sacrifice a lot of good outcomes for white people in the name of racism,

01:29:42.373 --> 01:29:44.893
in the name of getting better outcomes for white people.

01:29:45.033 --> 01:29:48.033
It's a complete tautology. It makes no sense.

01:29:48.353 --> 01:29:53.753
So if we work toward a world without racism, white people are better off in that world.

01:29:53.933 --> 01:30:00.093
We are giving up a great deal materially, as well as what it does to our experience

01:30:00.093 --> 01:30:04.793
of our own humanity, our capacity to be connected to the full breadth of people

01:30:04.793 --> 01:30:07.433
in the world, as well as each other and ourselves.

01:30:08.273 --> 01:30:12.313
Most of what we're going to lose, we've already lost, and we get to reclaim

01:30:12.313 --> 01:30:18.013
it through doing anti-racist policy change work. All right. So my last question.

01:30:18.613 --> 01:30:21.873
Finish this sentence. I have hope because.

01:30:22.513 --> 01:30:24.833
Ugh, let's see. I have hope because...

01:30:26.164 --> 01:30:30.664
A lot of reasons came to mind. That's why I'm hesitating. A key reason I have

01:30:30.664 --> 01:30:35.984
hope is because I see hopeless alcoholics get sober all the time.

01:30:36.704 --> 01:30:42.904
I know that it's possible for people to make big positive changes in their lives

01:30:42.904 --> 01:30:48.784
because I see absolutely hopeless, you never would think it could happen.

01:30:49.584 --> 01:30:52.164
Alcoholics and addicts get sober and clean.

01:30:52.464 --> 01:30:58.044
That's one of the reasons I have hope. The other reason I have hope is because I see all the time,

01:30:58.264 --> 01:31:04.524
I'm talking with people all the time of all different races who are working

01:31:04.524 --> 01:31:09.284
to make a positive difference in the world with each other and are working to

01:31:09.284 --> 01:31:11.184
get back to the beginning of our conversation,

01:31:11.184 --> 01:31:14.204
to base their work around love and not division,

01:31:14.624 --> 01:31:17.864
to base their work around belonging and not othering.

01:31:17.984 --> 01:31:20.444
I see that all day, every day.

01:31:20.904 --> 01:31:27.044
Well, if people want to get you to show up at their job or, you know,

01:31:27.144 --> 01:31:32.444
talk with you like I'm doing or whatever the case may be, how can people reach out to you?

01:31:33.024 --> 01:31:38.424
What's the name of your company? All that kind of stuff. And you got a website.

01:31:38.764 --> 01:31:41.604
Just let the people know how to get in touch with you.

01:31:42.004 --> 01:31:46.804
I love that you ask. Yes, I do have a website. It's just my name, Betsy Hodges dot com.

01:31:46.944 --> 01:31:51.624
B-E-T-S-Y Hodges dot com. You can get in touch with me there.

01:31:51.844 --> 01:32:00.184
You can also find me on LinkedIn at Betsy Hodges, on threads and Instagram, Betsy H11,

01:32:00.684 --> 01:32:04.384
the numeral one and the numeral one, Betsy H11, as I said, it's my favorite

01:32:04.384 --> 01:32:10.444
number, or on X occasionally these days, you can find me at Betsy Hodges.

01:32:10.444 --> 01:32:15.244
And I post a lot of information and a lot of videos there for people who want

01:32:15.244 --> 01:32:20.004
to learn more and all of those ways are easy ways to get in touch with me.

01:32:20.144 --> 01:32:23.864
I look forward to connecting with people because this is my mission and my passion.

01:32:24.504 --> 01:32:28.104
Well, Mayor Betsy Hodges, first of all, thank you for doing this.

01:32:29.063 --> 01:32:34.743
Let me be one of the people to congratulate you on your journey of sobriety.

01:32:35.663 --> 01:32:38.583
I also want to thank you for your public service.

01:32:39.583 --> 01:32:44.623
And I am really, really honored to talk to you and to know that you are out

01:32:44.623 --> 01:32:46.003
here doing this kind of work.

01:32:46.523 --> 01:32:52.143
I know it's not easy work, but somebody has to step to the plate and do that.

01:32:52.143 --> 01:32:57.803
And I'm really, really honored and pleased that you have taken the initiative to do that.

01:32:57.803 --> 01:33:05.563
And it's just been really, really cool to hear how you Because I like,

01:33:05.743 --> 01:33:09.963
when I talk to people I like to talk about and find out their journey How they

01:33:09.963 --> 01:33:11.343
got to this particular place,

01:33:12.083 --> 01:33:17.663
And, you know, I wish you much success Because Lord knows that we need it.

01:33:19.283 --> 01:33:23.783
Well, thank you so much And I'm very honored that you asked me to be on your

01:33:23.783 --> 01:33:28.443
podcast So thank you very much I really appreciate it And, of course,

01:33:28.523 --> 01:33:34.243
I always appreciate a chance to talk about what I think could help in the world. So thank you.

01:33:34.723 --> 01:33:37.003
All right, guys. And we're going to catch you all on the other side.

01:33:56.593 --> 01:34:02.173
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Cecelia Thomas.

01:34:03.073 --> 01:34:09.193
Cecilia (CeCe) Thomas is Chief Policy and Advocacy Officer for NMAC.

01:34:09.613 --> 01:34:14.313
In this role, Cecelia leads NMAC's advocacy around HIV, AIDS,

01:34:14.413 --> 01:34:18.253
and other public health issues, including funding for prevention.

01:34:18.773 --> 01:34:25.173
Most recently, Cecelia served as Senior Government Relations Manager at Trust

01:34:25.173 --> 01:34:28.253
for America's Health, where she performed similar advocacy,

01:34:28.653 --> 01:34:34.013
and Manager of Legislative Affairs for Planned Parenthood Federation of America

01:34:34.013 --> 01:34:36.893
and Planned Parenthood Action Fund.

01:34:36.893 --> 01:34:42.053
At PPFA, Cecelia advocated to protect federal funding for health centers,

01:34:42.213 --> 01:34:48.993
implemented PPFA's legislative strategy, and co-led the National Sex Education Coalition.

01:34:49.573 --> 01:34:54.793
Prior to her time with PPFA, Cecelia was the Senior Advisor in the U.S.

01:34:54.933 --> 01:35:01.033
House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform and the Associate Director of Oversight at the U.S.

01:35:01.433 --> 01:35:03.373
Department of Commerce Office of the Secretary.

01:35:04.253 --> 01:35:08.233
She has also served on the staff of the U.S. House Committee on Veterans Affairs

01:35:08.233 --> 01:35:11.413
and the office of Senator Bernie Sanders.

01:35:12.273 --> 01:35:17.673
Cecelia received her J.D. from the Fordham University School of Law and graduated

01:35:17.673 --> 01:35:22.193
cum laude from University of Michigan with a degree in political science.

01:35:22.613 --> 01:35:27.253
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

01:35:27.253 --> 01:35:30.693
on this podcast, Cecelia Thomas.

01:35:42.099 --> 01:35:46.119
All right. Cecelia Thomas. How are you doing, sister? You doing good?

01:35:46.839 --> 01:35:49.819
I'm doing well. How are you? I'm doing great.

01:35:50.519 --> 01:35:57.659
Just ready for a lot of this madness to end, but I'm pushing through pretty good.

01:35:57.959 --> 01:36:03.599
And I'm going to talk to you about a little bit of the madness because you work

01:36:03.599 --> 01:36:09.259
in Washington, you work on the Hill, and you actually did work on Capitol Hill too.

01:36:09.659 --> 01:36:13.379
So I want to kind of talk to you a little bit about that, but I really want

01:36:13.379 --> 01:36:17.459
to talk about the organization that you represent, which is NMAC,

01:36:17.759 --> 01:36:21.859
and get into the good work that y'all are doing.

01:36:22.499 --> 01:36:27.619
But first, I do a couple of icebreakers to kind of get the conversation going.

01:36:28.059 --> 01:36:32.119
So the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to.

01:36:32.719 --> 01:36:38.679
And the quote is, the fight for equity remains as urgent as ever.

01:36:39.794 --> 01:36:42.734
I mean, that quote is right on point.

01:36:43.034 --> 01:36:48.394
I mean, there's no other way to respond other than the fight for equity has

01:36:48.394 --> 01:36:52.034
been ongoing since the beginning, since we got here and by we,

01:36:52.334 --> 01:36:53.614
you know, people of color.

01:36:53.614 --> 01:37:00.434
But as we are seeing now, the fight for equity is at a high because the rights

01:37:00.434 --> 01:37:03.514
and the freedoms that have been fought for,

01:37:03.774 --> 01:37:07.754
the fact that I can be sitting here on a podcast with you in the position that

01:37:07.754 --> 01:37:10.554
I'm in right now, are being rolled back.

01:37:10.554 --> 01:37:18.614
And so it's hard for a generation that didn't see the before to now be seeing the cutbacks.

01:37:18.714 --> 01:37:23.834
And that's going for, you know, my generation and the generations that are below me.

01:37:24.134 --> 01:37:29.794
So that is even more the reason why people like myself do this work.

01:37:29.794 --> 01:37:32.734
Not so much even for ourselves but for

01:37:32.734 --> 01:37:35.474
those beneath us that are going to have to

01:37:35.474 --> 01:37:38.594
live with knowing that there was a world where there were some freedoms

01:37:38.594 --> 01:37:41.914
that were now being taken back and so that's why

01:37:41.914 --> 01:37:45.374
we stay in this fight yeah all right

01:37:45.374 --> 01:37:51.574
so now the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions oh boy yeah so I need

01:37:51.574 --> 01:37:58.694
you to give me a number between 1 and 20 let's go 12 12 what What advice do

01:37:58.694 --> 01:38:02.574
you have for recognizing fake news and propaganda,

01:38:02.774 --> 01:38:04.454
misinformation, disinformation?

01:38:05.494 --> 01:38:12.694
What advice do I give? Well, I think something that I have learned now is if it sounds funny,

01:38:13.346 --> 01:38:18.186
If it sounds outlandish, it probably is. If you're looking at a number and it's

01:38:18.186 --> 01:38:21.306
like, that looks a little high and that doesn't really make sense.

01:38:21.686 --> 01:38:26.386
I think that that is probably a flag that this may not be true.

01:38:26.946 --> 01:38:30.366
And so I have always been like, what is the source?

01:38:30.846 --> 01:38:37.226
And so we have kind of been, we're now in a position in our world where people

01:38:37.226 --> 01:38:41.106
just say things and there's no source, there's no site.

01:38:41.306 --> 01:38:45.786
It's like, that's all YouTube video. So if it sounds outlandish, it probably is.

01:38:46.206 --> 01:38:49.746
That's my first bit of advice. Okay.

01:38:50.666 --> 01:38:55.646
All right, Cece. So when you enrolled at the University of Michigan,

01:38:56.146 --> 01:38:59.806
was your mind made up that you were going to major in political science?

01:39:00.586 --> 01:39:08.026
I love this question. So no, it was not. I got to University of Michigan thinking

01:39:08.026 --> 01:39:13.526
I had an idea what I wanted to do. I knew I loved history, but I also knew that

01:39:13.526 --> 01:39:15.546
that probably wasn't the biggest moneymaker.

01:39:15.926 --> 01:39:22.486
So I'd go, and one of the things that influenced me was the affirmative action

01:39:22.486 --> 01:39:25.726
decision that took place in,

01:39:25.906 --> 01:39:31.286
I graduated in 2005, so it had to have been 2003.

01:39:32.206 --> 01:39:39.306
So a bunch of us got on the bus from Ann Arbor to Washington, D.C.

01:39:39.586 --> 01:39:42.126
To protest outside of the Supreme Court.

01:39:42.486 --> 01:39:48.026
And this was, you know, the fight for affirmative action, which has now been undone since that time.

01:39:48.146 --> 01:39:51.606
But at the time, the ruling was largely in our favor.

01:39:51.886 --> 01:39:55.526
So Michigan was the test case where the case was brought.

01:39:55.826 --> 01:39:58.386
And so a lot of the activist groups,

01:39:59.195 --> 01:40:05.895
basically just put us on a bus for one day. We went all the way through the night, got to D.C..

01:40:06.635 --> 01:40:08.975
Protested, and these are the things you can do when you're 21,

01:40:09.295 --> 01:40:14.195
and then just got back on the bus and came back to Ann Arbor because we didn't have no money.

01:40:14.515 --> 01:40:18.655
So essentially, that's when I was like, okay, I like this. Like,

01:40:18.735 --> 01:40:20.395
I like this type of caring.

01:40:20.835 --> 01:40:25.515
So I knew that I was like, let me look more into that.

01:40:25.715 --> 01:40:29.835
So political science and history can pretty much, I don't want to say go hand

01:40:29.835 --> 01:40:32.955
in hand, but they feed off of each other.

01:40:33.055 --> 01:40:37.255
You get to know how we got here to get to know how this system was put together.

01:40:37.655 --> 01:40:41.735
So I was a political science major and a history minor.

01:40:42.075 --> 01:40:47.395
So once I got past my core classes, I was in my own nerdy heaven.

01:40:47.875 --> 01:40:54.195
So yeah, this is when I knew that I was going to probably major in political

01:40:54.195 --> 01:40:55.755
science after that experience.

01:40:55.995 --> 01:40:58.835
So that was my sophomore year. So I declared that in my junior year.

01:40:59.315 --> 01:41:04.875
So now are you from Michigan or where did you, where, where? I am. Yes, I am. Detroit.

01:41:05.475 --> 01:41:10.755
Okay. All right. So you stay local. A lot of, I'm a lot of Michiganders are

01:41:10.755 --> 01:41:12.975
very, very local. I noticed that.

01:41:13.215 --> 01:41:17.515
Why, why do you think that is? You mean when, you know, going to Michigan or.

01:41:17.855 --> 01:41:20.455
Well, I mean, like. I live here now. I

01:41:20.455 --> 01:41:23.515
live in dc now but yes a lot of us you mean

01:41:23.515 --> 01:41:26.275
like when we graduate or just yeah it's

01:41:26.275 --> 01:41:31.775
like it's what i've noticed is that especially like if they're in detroit flint

01:41:31.775 --> 01:41:37.755
lansing area a lot of y'all will go to you y'all would stay in detroit and then

01:41:37.755 --> 01:41:42.555
go to college and then you'll branch off somewhere else if you decide to go

01:41:42.555 --> 01:41:45.975
but a lot of people especially those i've noticed like in politics.

01:41:46.862 --> 01:41:51.562
They just stay. It's like, okay, I'm here. I, you know, they might travel the

01:41:51.562 --> 01:41:53.762
world and all that, but they're going to stay in Detroit.

01:41:53.762 --> 01:42:02.042
So I just, I just wondered what, what is, what is the appeal of staying close

01:42:02.042 --> 01:42:05.762
to home all the way through college for a mix of men?

01:42:06.482 --> 01:42:09.762
For us, I think, well, first.

01:42:10.664 --> 01:42:16.924
Just to shout out my hometown, Detroit is a very unique and wonderful place.

01:42:17.124 --> 01:42:22.804
So if you grew up there in the 90s and 2000s, you know how unique it was.

01:42:23.104 --> 01:42:28.904
So for all of the issues that the city has had, it really does teach you a lot

01:42:28.904 --> 01:42:31.584
and it binds you kind of with community.

01:42:31.844 --> 01:42:35.044
You know, when you don't have a ton, you have community.

01:42:35.424 --> 01:42:40.164
So that is how we are such. And if you talk to someone from Detroit,

01:42:40.364 --> 01:42:42.284
you're going to know her from Detroit very quickly.

01:42:43.464 --> 01:42:48.484
So that's part of it. And then you have, you know, like a top rated school just

01:42:48.484 --> 01:42:52.624
right up the street. And then you have Michigan State about an hour and a half away.

01:42:53.524 --> 01:42:58.924
So, you know, an hour and a half from Michigan. So Michigan's 45 minutes to an hour.

01:42:59.064 --> 01:43:02.044
Then you have, you know, just an hour and a half up the road.

01:43:02.184 --> 01:43:06.764
You have Michigan State. So it's a very, and for those of us where money is

01:43:06.764 --> 01:43:11.544
a concern, you know, why go anywhere and spend money you don't need to when

01:43:11.544 --> 01:43:13.724
you're getting a quality education.

01:43:14.084 --> 01:43:16.764
Then you also have Eastern Michigan down the street from Michigan.

01:43:16.764 --> 01:43:22.404
So you have a lot of good schools in the area where,

01:43:22.724 --> 01:43:26.124
especially for people like me and my friends where, you know,

01:43:26.264 --> 01:43:30.884
money was an issue and we needed to go somewhere that was affordable,

01:43:30.884 --> 01:43:34.384
but also could take us to the next level. University of Michigan.

01:43:34.724 --> 01:43:40.084
I am a proud Michigan alum. Everyone who knows me knows that it was right there.

01:43:40.264 --> 01:43:41.804
So that's why we stay local largely.

01:43:42.624 --> 01:43:48.484
Yeah. Okay. Because I'm from Chicago and I say Chicago is like a half and half city.

01:43:48.744 --> 01:43:53.584
Like half of us will stay and go to college, but the other half,

01:43:53.724 --> 01:43:55.964
we act like we're ambassadors.

01:43:55.964 --> 01:43:59.924
We're just going to go out in the world and it goes to where I went to Jackson

01:43:59.924 --> 01:44:05.724
State, but about half of my class went to some school in Illinois.

01:44:06.044 --> 01:44:09.864
So I just, you know, because it's been other people I've had.

01:44:10.700 --> 01:44:14.900
From Michigan on the show. And when you go through their background,

01:44:14.900 --> 01:44:18.400
it's like, oh, they just never left. Okay.

01:44:20.320 --> 01:44:23.800
How did your path in politics lead you to become a lobbyist?

01:44:24.940 --> 01:44:29.840
Oh, so we only have so much time, so I'll give you the quick version.

01:44:30.160 --> 01:44:39.380
But my path in politics. So after law school, I went to a law firm and when

01:44:39.380 --> 01:44:41.300
I graduated law school, it was 2008.

01:44:41.320 --> 01:44:43.920
So hold that date in your mind.

01:44:44.660 --> 01:44:50.140
So when I started my job at the law firm, it was the day Lehman Brothers crashed.

01:44:50.920 --> 01:44:58.160
So they're like, everything is fine. Everything will be OK. Now we know that was not true.

01:44:58.720 --> 01:45:04.420
So then I was laid off several months later as everything was collapsing in New York City.

01:45:04.620 --> 01:45:07.460
And I think I should probably mention that I was at Fordham University.

01:45:07.860 --> 01:45:11.660
So from University of Michigan, I went to law school in New York,

01:45:11.860 --> 01:45:13.380
which was great. It was wonderful.

01:45:13.580 --> 01:45:16.580
But then the economy collapsed and I was like, what am I supposed to do?

01:45:16.860 --> 01:45:22.580
So from there, I went to after many months of looking and trying to figure out

01:45:22.580 --> 01:45:25.040
my life, I came down to D.C.

01:45:25.620 --> 01:45:29.340
To take an internship with Senator Gillibrand. from New York State.

01:45:29.900 --> 01:45:35.760
And that was my intro. So I went from being an associate in a law firm to being

01:45:35.760 --> 01:45:41.740
an illegal intern within a few months. So I was like, okay, well, this better work.

01:45:42.640 --> 01:45:48.000
I'm coming down to DC from New York with a lot of nothing. So this better work.

01:45:48.360 --> 01:45:51.860
And it did. I got my internship. And then within a couple months,

01:45:51.900 --> 01:45:57.260
I started my first job with Bernie Sanders as a legislative correspondent.

01:45:58.385 --> 01:46:04.985
And I worked my way up from there. So from that point, I spent the most of my

01:46:04.985 --> 01:46:11.325
time with the House Oversight Committee under Congressman Elijah Cummings from Baltimore.

01:46:11.785 --> 01:46:16.865
And he became my mentor and, you know, a boss and all the things.

01:46:17.245 --> 01:46:21.865
And, you know, we could do a whole podcast on him alone. But that experience,

01:46:22.145 --> 01:46:28.325
that five years is really what shaped me to start doing my, to start moving into advocacy.

01:46:28.685 --> 01:46:34.085
So I had that job five years. Then I went and did oversight for the Obama administration

01:46:34.085 --> 01:46:36.445
for the Department of Commerce.

01:46:37.065 --> 01:46:39.025
Then Trump won.

01:46:40.765 --> 01:46:43.565
So here we are and I skipped a

01:46:43.565 --> 01:46:46.625
lot of stuff along the way I'm just giving you the the high level

01:46:46.625 --> 01:46:52.705
but so now I'm out of a job again and so now I'm like what am I doing they we

01:46:52.705 --> 01:46:57.025
they have a trifecta much like they have now except I didn't have the resume

01:46:57.025 --> 01:47:06.345
that I had that I have now so I am out of work for about six months and looking for work.

01:47:06.465 --> 01:47:08.665
And thankfully, Mr. Cummings lets me come back.

01:47:08.865 --> 01:47:16.565
So I'm not completely out there, but I basically then start looking for advocacy

01:47:16.565 --> 01:47:19.565
jobs and I got my job at Planned Parenthood.

01:47:19.665 --> 01:47:21.565
And that's when during Trump won.

01:47:21.805 --> 01:47:26.445
And that's when I started. That's when I started my lobbying career.

01:47:27.125 --> 01:47:31.625
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was that was the right time to be at Planned Parenthood,

01:47:31.645 --> 01:47:34.265
it seemed like, during that first administration.

01:47:35.165 --> 01:47:38.485
So like you said, you worked on Capitol Hill for a number of years.

01:47:38.985 --> 01:47:44.065
What is the most glaring difference you see now as compared to when you worked there?

01:47:44.801 --> 01:47:51.261
The glaring difference now is there is absolutely no real working together.

01:47:51.661 --> 01:47:57.401
And not that it was great when I was there, because I was there during the rise of the tea party.

01:47:57.921 --> 01:48:03.381
So this is when we started seeing the gridlock that we're seeing now,

01:48:03.581 --> 01:48:05.461
but it wasn't to this level.

01:48:05.761 --> 01:48:11.181
Now we have reached a point where if you say X, I'm going to say Y just reflexively,

01:48:11.181 --> 01:48:15.841
because that's just what it is. and now with the rise of Trumpism,

01:48:16.201 --> 01:48:19.001
and now we're seeing what's happening in these midterm elections.

01:48:19.941 --> 01:48:24.461
You know, now if you speak out in any way against the president.

01:48:25.381 --> 01:48:27.341
He will come for your career.

01:48:27.821 --> 01:48:34.341
So, you know, we have a lot of rank and file just in the last two weeks considered rank and file.

01:48:34.521 --> 01:48:36.641
Now they would not have been considered rank and file.

01:48:37.101 --> 01:48:41.521
You know, they wouldn't have been considered, you know, kind of mainstream Republicans

01:48:41.521 --> 01:48:46.021
10 years ago. They are very conservative, but now they just weren't MAGA enough.

01:48:46.381 --> 01:48:49.981
So they have lost their seats, right?

01:48:50.821 --> 01:48:56.101
Just the other day, you know, Bill Paxton won against, you know,

01:48:56.181 --> 01:48:57.341
the current sitting senator.

01:48:57.601 --> 01:49:02.041
So at the same time, we're looking at, if you don't back me 100%,

01:49:02.041 --> 01:49:03.861
I'm going to come for your career.

01:49:04.321 --> 01:49:09.441
And so that has definitely made a difference. That was not the case when I was

01:49:09.441 --> 01:49:15.001
there years ago. So how much of a challenge has the current political climate

01:49:15.001 --> 01:49:16.701
been to your work as a lobbyist?

01:49:17.344 --> 01:49:25.944
It's been a challenge because you are trying to cut through a lot of the noise with just sound policy.

01:49:26.124 --> 01:49:31.544
And what that means is you're trying to talk to the other side of the aisle

01:49:31.544 --> 01:49:34.644
about things that they may agree with.

01:49:34.904 --> 01:49:38.324
That's the thing that's crazy. It's like you will go to an office and they'll

01:49:38.324 --> 01:49:39.784
say, you know, this is a great idea.

01:49:39.964 --> 01:49:43.684
This is a great plan. But nothing will happen because due to politics,

01:49:43.684 --> 01:49:46.764
there's nothing that they can really do.

01:49:47.344 --> 01:49:51.764
So they can agree. I totally agree with this. You know, I agree with this bill.

01:49:52.684 --> 01:49:54.984
Nothing we're going to be able to. We can't support it out loud.

01:49:55.564 --> 01:50:00.204
So that's the part that's frustrating because, you know, when people on the

01:50:00.204 --> 01:50:01.984
outside, you just see all this gridlock.

01:50:01.984 --> 01:50:07.084
What you're not seeing is there are people on both sides of the aisle that agree

01:50:07.084 --> 01:50:12.364
with things, but there's nothing you can do when you are just put on this side

01:50:12.364 --> 01:50:14.184
and this side and nobody can budge.

01:50:14.284 --> 01:50:17.904
And if you do budge, you will face consequences from leadership.

01:50:18.504 --> 01:50:25.744
And that's really a shame. The senator that just lost, Senator Cornyn from Texas.

01:50:26.524 --> 01:50:30.904
And Eric, this is crazy that I'm even saying this because I am like a dye in

01:50:30.904 --> 01:50:32.444
the wool, blue Democrat.

01:50:32.764 --> 01:50:38.884
But he pretty much lost his seat by just not agreeing 100 percent with the president.

01:50:39.064 --> 01:50:41.964
He agreed with him 98 percent of the time.

01:50:42.304 --> 01:50:44.764
And that cost him his seat.

01:50:45.404 --> 01:50:47.464
So that's what is very new.

01:50:48.344 --> 01:50:52.464
Yeah, I know. And I know it's a certain art form.

01:50:52.724 --> 01:50:57.724
You know, I've been on both ends. I had the distinction of being the policy

01:50:57.724 --> 01:51:03.764
director for the ACLU in Mississippi, and I was a state legislator before that.

01:51:05.004 --> 01:51:11.964
And, you know, I remember going up to the Hill to lobby for something when I was a state legislator.

01:51:12.284 --> 01:51:15.064
And I remember I was with this lady.

01:51:16.056 --> 01:51:21.056
And the congressman, you remember Danny Davis, right?

01:51:21.456 --> 01:51:25.376
Yes. So Danny, growing up in Chicago, I knew who he was.

01:51:25.796 --> 01:51:30.216
I think he had met me once, right? But I had been in Mississippi a lot by that

01:51:30.216 --> 01:51:31.976
time when he was up there.

01:51:32.236 --> 01:51:36.536
And so it was a white lady and she was just going in strictly on the issue.

01:51:36.656 --> 01:51:42.056
And you could see that burrow, that frown.

01:51:44.176 --> 01:51:48.536
And, and he's got that incredible baritone voice. And he was just saying,

01:51:48.756 --> 01:51:51.356
well, ma'am. And, and she kept cutting him off.

01:51:51.736 --> 01:51:56.696
And I said, why don't you go step outside for a minute? Let me talk to the Congressman. Right.

01:51:57.216 --> 01:52:02.556
And so she stepped outside and he just, where did you find her?

01:52:02.676 --> 01:52:07.436
And blah, blah. I said, look, Congressman, it's, you know, and I just basically

01:52:07.436 --> 01:52:12.096
explained what she was talking about, but it was a different vibe.

01:52:12.256 --> 01:52:12.656
You know what I'm saying?

01:52:12.836 --> 01:52:15.896
One, because I was an elected official, you know, like him.

01:52:16.356 --> 01:52:19.876
So, you know, there was a certain parlance we had and, and, and,

01:52:20.376 --> 01:52:25.016
you know, he was, he was supportive of what we wanted, but, you know,

01:52:25.076 --> 01:52:28.816
it was just like, he just said, when I left, he said, whatever you do,

01:52:28.936 --> 01:52:31.856
man, don't go anywhere else with her. I said, yes, sir, Congressman, I got you.

01:52:32.616 --> 01:52:36.816
You know what I'm saying? But it was just, uh, it's, it's just,

01:52:36.816 --> 01:52:39.016
It's just a different skill set.

01:52:39.176 --> 01:52:43.356
But what I'm hearing from you now is that even with that,

01:52:43.576 --> 01:52:49.036
you know what I'm saying, it's just hard to get stuff done because people are

01:52:49.036 --> 01:52:55.936
so entrenched in their positions or they don't have the latitude to really be

01:52:55.936 --> 01:52:57.476
congressmen and congresswomen.

01:52:58.296 --> 01:53:02.296
Exactly. There's no real movement. There's no real movement.

01:53:03.526 --> 01:53:09.586
There's no wiggle room. So, you know, you have people who want to actually move

01:53:09.586 --> 01:53:13.306
legislation forward, who actually want to legislate and do the work they were

01:53:13.306 --> 01:53:16.526
elected to do, but you're kind of boxed in at this point.

01:53:16.526 --> 01:53:21.886
And so, you know, the real movement is going to happen with people in the willing

01:53:21.886 --> 01:53:27.746
middle, you know, to come together and say, you know, we have to find some common ground.

01:53:27.786 --> 01:53:30.906
And right now that's not even really on the table.

01:53:31.566 --> 01:53:35.166
So, yeah. All right. So what is NMAC?

01:53:36.286 --> 01:53:42.206
Well, NMAC, formerly known as the National Minority AIDS Council,

01:53:42.566 --> 01:53:47.826
NMAC has been around for the last 39 years.

01:53:48.026 --> 01:53:52.946
And the HIV epidemic has been with us for 45 years.

01:53:53.086 --> 01:53:57.546
So NMAC came very shortly after the AIDS crisis began.

01:53:58.546 --> 01:54:04.026
And really, NMAC filled a void because in the beginning, the focus was white

01:54:04.026 --> 01:54:06.866
gay men in California and New York.

01:54:07.226 --> 01:54:13.426
And as we know, that is not the only place that people with HIV and AIDS were existing.

01:54:13.786 --> 01:54:19.266
And that is not the community that was the only community that was being impacted.

01:54:19.586 --> 01:54:25.506
So NMAC came to kind of fill the gap and to really focus on care and treatment

01:54:25.506 --> 01:54:31.466
and visibility for minorities that are the Black and brown community,

01:54:31.646 --> 01:54:35.406
especially that were being disproportionately impacted by the epidemic.

01:54:35.746 --> 01:54:37.686
So that is NMAC's history.

01:54:38.590 --> 01:54:44.450
And for these years, done amazing work and has, you know, really lifted up a

01:54:44.450 --> 01:54:51.310
community that wasn't being acknowledged hardly at all, but was impacted and

01:54:51.310 --> 01:54:53.410
dying in heavy and large rates.

01:54:53.750 --> 01:55:00.270
So right now, where I come in is under the leadership of Harold Phillips, our CEO.

01:55:00.790 --> 01:55:05.670
I am the chief policy and advocacy officer and Max First in that position.

01:55:05.670 --> 01:55:11.350
And we are right now trying to expand our focus. And what I mean by that is

01:55:11.350 --> 01:55:16.770
we're always going to be an organization that focuses on HIV and AIDS policy,

01:55:16.970 --> 01:55:18.070
treatment, and services.

01:55:18.230 --> 01:55:23.250
But now we're expanding, and as the moment calls for, as we were just speaking

01:55:23.250 --> 01:55:26.090
about, we're expanding into the whole person.

01:55:26.370 --> 01:55:32.110
So what that means is we are looking at people now are aging with HIV.

01:55:32.110 --> 01:55:37.670
So about over 50% of the people living with HIV now are over 50 years old.

01:55:37.950 --> 01:55:44.510
So now it is not obviously a death sentence because of the technologies that

01:55:44.510 --> 01:55:48.350
have come around, the medications and the fights of the people in the beginning.

01:55:49.483 --> 01:55:53.823
To get us to this point, it is not a death sentence. But now we have to look

01:55:53.823 --> 01:55:57.383
at people actually aging with the disease, with HIV.

01:55:57.843 --> 01:56:03.803
And so that means we are looking at, they need affordable housing. They need healthcare.

01:56:03.883 --> 01:56:06.023
They need access to Medicaid.

01:56:06.483 --> 01:56:11.443
They need funded treatment programs, such as Ryan White.

01:56:11.723 --> 01:56:17.163
So there's a lot of things that people aging with HIV need. And also,

01:56:17.503 --> 01:56:20.443
as we look at public health, vaccinations.

01:56:20.943 --> 01:56:27.783
So we are literally coming together with other movements to really make to amplify

01:56:27.783 --> 01:56:31.963
our message, but also amplifying the messages of these other movements,

01:56:31.963 --> 01:56:35.723
because we're kind of all in sync. We all want Medicaid to stay intact.

01:56:35.943 --> 01:56:39.883
So that's not an HIV or a vaccine thing.

01:56:40.023 --> 01:56:45.603
That is all of us. So in a time like this, when things are what they are,

01:56:45.783 --> 01:56:50.383
we have to be kind of singing in one voice to make our voices heard because

01:56:50.383 --> 01:56:52.243
the attacks are impacting all of us.

01:56:53.103 --> 01:56:54.583
Yeah. And, you know, I.

01:56:55.550 --> 01:57:03.850
I'm a little bit older than you, and I remember the big deal when Magic Johnson contracted HIV.

01:57:04.790 --> 01:57:12.610
And the fact that he was able to still play basketball and he's lived a full

01:57:12.610 --> 01:57:18.890
life, that was, just to paint a picture, that was such an anomaly, right?

01:57:18.890 --> 01:57:29.470
Because it was like we were growing up and watching people instantly die from this disease.

01:57:29.810 --> 01:57:37.390
And then, but now, like you said, 45 years into it, now you actually have basically

01:57:37.390 --> 01:57:42.230
senior citizens that have lived with the virus for their lives.

01:57:43.070 --> 01:57:47.330
So I know that's been, how much of a change has that been?

01:57:47.330 --> 01:57:55.210
I mean, is it, you know, but just kind of explain how it's transitioned to something

01:57:55.210 --> 01:57:59.510
that can be treated as opposed to an instant death sentence.

01:58:00.483 --> 01:58:08.123
Well, now we have, you know, many medications that keep HIV manageable and so

01:58:08.123 --> 01:58:14.803
that your viral load does not skyrocket and go into AIDS. So that's where we are now.

01:58:14.943 --> 01:58:20.183
And that's due to a lot of the pioneering efforts of the people of ACT UP and

01:58:20.183 --> 01:58:26.243
the early movements of just forcing folks to pay attention to a community,

01:58:26.543 --> 01:58:30.503
specific community, that was being disproportionately impacted.

01:58:31.243 --> 01:58:37.843
And so right now, we have gotten to the place where we weren't in the 90s,

01:58:38.023 --> 01:58:40.943
80s and the 90s, and some of the 2000s.

01:58:41.063 --> 01:58:42.863
We're in a place where people can age.

01:58:43.143 --> 01:58:46.443
But the reason for that is because of advocacy.

01:58:46.783 --> 01:58:51.363
And the reason that we will be able to stay and get to a place where hopefully

01:58:51.363 --> 01:58:53.663
we can end the epidemic is through advocacy.

01:58:54.983 --> 01:58:59.263
So where we are now is people are like, oh, well, people are aging with HIV.

01:58:59.263 --> 01:59:01.203
Be. So it's obviously not that big of a deal.

01:59:01.423 --> 01:59:04.223
Obviously, I've had someone say, like, is that still a thing?

01:59:04.643 --> 01:59:09.683
And yes, yes, it is. And what you're seeing with someone like Magic,

01:59:09.823 --> 01:59:14.823
who, by the way, is one of NMAC's biggest advocates and one of definitely a

01:59:14.823 --> 01:59:16.383
wonderful partner of ours.

01:59:16.443 --> 01:59:21.043
So we very appreciate his insights and his impact on the organization.

01:59:21.383 --> 01:59:24.443
But it wasn't always the case that

01:59:24.443 --> 01:59:27.543
somebody was mad that people had magic's

01:59:27.543 --> 01:59:30.563
resources to be able to get to that point

01:59:30.563 --> 01:59:33.623
so the way that we watched magic i just

01:59:33.623 --> 01:59:38.783
remember watching him make that announcement on that little tv in my in my kitchen

01:59:38.783 --> 01:59:45.243
as a little girl and that being like oh my goodness he's gonna die and clearly

01:59:45.243 --> 01:59:50.843
he's still here and thriving and letting his voice be heard but we have to remember

01:59:50.843 --> 01:59:52.783
all the people who were diagnosed back then,

01:59:53.472 --> 01:59:59.572
that that was kind of it for them. And so we are really looking at,

01:59:59.772 --> 02:00:07.412
you know, now it's not a situation where you have to have Magic Johnson's wealth to stay alive.

02:00:07.592 --> 02:00:12.152
But what we're doing now, as we're attacking public health, is people still

02:00:12.152 --> 02:00:14.972
need resources to get these medications.

02:00:15.752 --> 02:00:19.072
And so when you're attacking Medicaid, when you're attacking,

02:00:19.072 --> 02:00:21.452
you know, the ACA subsidies,

02:00:22.192 --> 02:00:25.012
these are the things that are keeping people from getting their

02:00:25.012 --> 02:00:28.712
medications and we have to remember that there are higher

02:00:28.712 --> 02:00:31.432
rates of HIV in various different places in

02:00:31.432 --> 02:00:38.032
the country so it doesn't all look like you know people just out here thriving

02:00:38.032 --> 02:00:42.112
we still need to make sure that people are getting access to their medications

02:00:42.112 --> 02:00:50.052
so that we can have a general population of people living with HIV that are aging and thriving,

02:00:50.052 --> 02:00:52.432
and it's not just certain groups.

02:00:53.212 --> 02:00:59.212
Yeah. So you work in the strategic partnerships and policy department at NMAC.

02:00:59.412 --> 02:01:04.252
Is your primary function strategic priority number three, which is building

02:01:04.252 --> 02:01:08.512
grassroots response by identifying and building community leaders?

02:01:09.505 --> 02:01:15.225
Is that my primary? I don't know if that's my primary, but I think that all

02:01:15.225 --> 02:01:19.905
of the priorities are things that, you know, my department embodies.

02:01:20.305 --> 02:01:25.725
And that is one of them. So at this point, you know, we have started our,

02:01:25.905 --> 02:01:30.465
we have now our first state policy, state policy position.

02:01:30.465 --> 02:01:36.645
So NMAC is a national organization, but now we're going into states and trying

02:01:36.645 --> 02:01:41.045
to offer assistance, working with people on the ground, because where we are

02:01:41.045 --> 02:01:43.445
nationally and federally is a bit challenging.

02:01:43.445 --> 02:01:47.885
So when we're building leaders, I say that to say now that we're going into

02:01:47.885 --> 02:01:50.905
states, we're trying to, you know,

02:01:51.085 --> 02:01:55.765
start working with volunteers on the ground level, especially in states that

02:01:55.765 --> 02:02:00.185
have a bit more problematic legislation around HIV policy.

02:02:00.185 --> 02:02:05.905
So what we're doing is we are trying to like build young leaders through like

02:02:05.905 --> 02:02:10.265
volunteer programs and whatnot. So that's something that my department is starting.

02:02:10.765 --> 02:02:14.905
But really all of the strategic priorities we embody in some capacity.

02:02:15.105 --> 02:02:19.145
And that's really, you know, when we created them, we wanted to make sure that

02:02:19.145 --> 02:02:24.425
every department in some way embodied each of these, each of the priorities.

02:02:24.425 --> 02:02:26.845
But that's really one way we're doing that.

02:02:27.005 --> 02:02:29.785
And then also just building advocates on Capitol Hill.

02:02:30.485 --> 02:02:37.385
I mean, some people, they mean, well, they say, you know, we're all for HIV policy.

02:02:37.565 --> 02:02:40.645
We just want to know more. And so that's how you build champions.

02:02:40.885 --> 02:02:42.905
So that's also part of our strategic priorities.

02:02:43.525 --> 02:02:48.385
Yeah. And I will get to that, let you expand on that a little more later.

02:02:48.565 --> 02:02:53.045
But you've been, y'all have been staunch advocates for maintaining federal HIV

02:02:53.045 --> 02:02:58.565
programs like the Ryan White Care Act you had mentioned, the Ending HIV Epidemic

02:02:58.565 --> 02:03:01.785
Initiative and PEPFAR. What are...

02:03:02.393 --> 02:03:06.693
Pieces of legislation that your organization is focusing on right now?

02:03:06.933 --> 02:03:10.273
We are focused on largely the same.

02:03:10.593 --> 02:03:17.553
Like our strategic priorities are, well, our policy priorities are CDC prevention fund.

02:03:17.693 --> 02:03:22.073
We want to make sure that's funded at a high level because that is where most

02:03:22.073 --> 02:03:27.593
of our community-based organization funding comes from as it relates to HIV

02:03:27.593 --> 02:03:31.053
education, prevention, education, goes together.

02:03:31.473 --> 02:03:35.973
We, Ryan White, we want to make sure that is funded at a higher level.

02:03:36.293 --> 02:03:39.333
And now PEPFAR, as you just mentioned.

02:03:39.673 --> 02:03:47.653
And we are trying to make sure that ending the HIV epidemic initiative is funded at a higher program.

02:03:47.733 --> 02:03:50.873
And that one is actually interesting because that is a Trump initiative.

02:03:51.453 --> 02:03:56.773
He started that as being the president that wanted to end the HIV epidemic.

02:03:57.213 --> 02:04:01.713
Problem is when you cut funding from CDC, which is where the program,

02:04:01.973 --> 02:04:05.333
the initiative is housed, you're kind of working against yourself.

02:04:05.853 --> 02:04:10.433
So as we are, that's when I, and now to bring in the other movements,

02:04:10.853 --> 02:04:17.113
you know, a lot of our key programs are in CDC or the programs that we have relied on.

02:04:17.113 --> 02:04:21.933
So when we're working with, you know, vaccine advocates and other advocates

02:04:21.933 --> 02:04:25.793
that, you know, and other public health advocates, this is why we're singing in one voice.

02:04:25.993 --> 02:04:33.593
So now that we've made our expansion, Medicaid is part of our policy priorities as well as SNAP.

02:04:33.593 --> 02:04:40.653
So just briefly, you know, when you cut Medicaid benefits and Medicaid benefits

02:04:40.653 --> 02:04:44.773
have been a backbone for people living with HIV in terms of getting treatment.

02:04:45.233 --> 02:04:50.293
So when you cut Medicaid benefits, Ryan White benefit, you know,

02:04:50.413 --> 02:04:51.613
people are going to go to Ryan White.

02:04:51.813 --> 02:04:53.913
Well, Ryan White is already underfunded.

02:04:54.153 --> 02:04:59.433
So Ryan White is not going to be able to absorb all of the people that are going

02:04:59.433 --> 02:05:03.553
to need to need their services. So then people are just going to be out of luck.

02:05:04.239 --> 02:05:07.739
So those are largely our policy priorities.

02:05:07.959 --> 02:05:13.379
And then moving with SNAP, you can't really take care of yourself if you're not eating.

02:05:13.679 --> 02:05:19.299
So if folks are relying on SNAP benefits, they're not getting their SNAP benefit,

02:05:19.299 --> 02:05:21.999
they're not eating, that means they're not taking their medications.

02:05:22.119 --> 02:05:28.659
And you see how that can just spiral into creating a larger epidemic in certain

02:05:28.659 --> 02:05:33.679
places that we are trying to eradicate. Yeah, yeah.

02:05:34.239 --> 02:05:39.859
So do you deal directly with HHS? And if you do, how is that going?

02:05:40.319 --> 02:05:45.079
Well, I think in a different time, we would interact with HHS.

02:05:45.519 --> 02:05:53.919
We have some meetings with the CDC. We are starting to have some more so than prior.

02:05:54.239 --> 02:05:59.399
There are conversations that are happening, but some of our relationship,

02:05:59.799 --> 02:06:04.039
you know, it has to be a bit more it's

02:06:04.039 --> 02:06:08.699
not as open as it has been in the past like it has and we would love to have

02:06:08.699 --> 02:06:13.899
a collaborative relationship with HHS we would really enjoy that but right now

02:06:13.899 --> 02:06:18.119
you know it's hard to have a it's hard to have a collaborative relationship

02:06:18.119 --> 02:06:23.679
with HHS with a lot of organizations and not just ours I mean lots of people are trying to.

02:06:24.476 --> 02:06:29.456
Find an inroad. And it's been a bit more difficult in the last few years,

02:06:29.616 --> 02:06:31.376
in the last couple of years, as you can imagine.

02:06:31.996 --> 02:06:40.776
Yeah. So talk to me about the Hills Champion Reception and NMAC Advocacy 101.

02:06:41.276 --> 02:06:50.256
So our Hill Champions Reception has largely been a reception that is commemorating World AIDS Day.

02:06:50.256 --> 02:06:56.996
And so that is the day that we would go to Capitol Hill and we would celebrate

02:06:56.996 --> 02:07:02.556
Hill champions, our champions within the HIV caucus and overarchingly.

02:07:02.556 --> 02:07:07.816
So these are the people that really are supportive of HIV policy,

02:07:07.816 --> 02:07:13.856
are vocal about their support for HIV policy, and are the ones that are coming

02:07:13.856 --> 02:07:16.776
up with new pieces of legislation for, like,

02:07:16.956 --> 02:07:22.456
PrEP affordability and other priorities that the HIV community has.

02:07:23.136 --> 02:07:26.716
So that's really a reception. It's just a night to honor them.

02:07:27.096 --> 02:07:33.476
And we are definitely going to, let's see, take it up a notch this year because

02:07:33.476 --> 02:07:36.296
it is the 45th anniversary of this movement.

02:07:36.636 --> 02:07:42.076
And so this is now we are going to be expanding on our celebration.

02:07:42.316 --> 02:07:46.716
And so there'll be more on that to come. But we are, that is definitely one

02:07:46.716 --> 02:07:49.076
of our biggest events of the year.

02:07:49.096 --> 02:07:52.236
And it's something that we've been very excited to do.

02:07:52.456 --> 02:07:55.196
And we are very excited to expand on this year.

02:07:55.436 --> 02:08:01.296
And in terms of Advocacy 101, really what that is, is.

02:08:02.033 --> 02:08:05.473
Us, you know, just putting our policies out there.

02:08:05.613 --> 02:08:11.093
It's really just making sure that people know what NMAC's priority policies

02:08:11.093 --> 02:08:13.873
are and giving them a way to advocate on them.

02:08:14.013 --> 02:08:20.053
So as an advocate, it's kind of our responsibility to lead and train other advocates.

02:08:20.273 --> 02:08:25.313
So when we have some of the people from our programs, from our treatment programs,

02:08:25.593 --> 02:08:27.633
so we have a program, Gay Men of Color.

02:08:28.153 --> 02:08:34.213
This is a program that kind of starts and mentors and really kind of brings in community.

02:08:34.673 --> 02:08:39.333
So we, when we have like a Capitol Hill Day, we'll be responsible for training

02:08:39.333 --> 02:08:42.593
them and saying, these are the talking points. These are things you need to ask.

02:08:42.853 --> 02:08:45.893
Because when you do this all the time, you kind of take for granted,

02:08:45.893 --> 02:08:49.593
you know, you're going into a congressional office and talking about these things.

02:08:50.413 --> 02:08:54.393
And for people who don't do that often, that can be very intimidating.

02:08:55.093 --> 02:09:00.753
So we're really big on trying to train and make sure that the people in our

02:09:00.753 --> 02:09:06.273
cohorts know how to go to the Hill and talk about the issues that we hold dear.

02:09:06.593 --> 02:09:11.813
So really advocacy one-on-one is our policy priorities, but kind of in a bite-sized

02:09:11.813 --> 02:09:16.813
manner so that everyone can understand and everybody can talk about them comfortably.

02:09:16.813 --> 02:09:23.473
Yeah, I liked I loved advocacy day when we were doing it because it was kind

02:09:23.473 --> 02:09:26.913
of like it gave me a chance to act like a college professor for a day.

02:09:27.193 --> 02:09:32.173
Yeah. And the people are so eager and it's like they want to do something good.

02:09:32.173 --> 02:09:34.433
So they you have their attention.

02:09:34.753 --> 02:09:39.833
And, you know, it's just amazing to watch average citizens who don't normally

02:09:39.833 --> 02:09:44.713
do that kind of work to get comfortable enough to talk to their elected officials.

02:09:44.713 --> 02:09:47.253
I think that's a cool thing.

02:09:47.333 --> 02:09:50.033
So that's the main reason why I wanted to expound on that.

02:09:50.853 --> 02:09:54.833
Y'all are losing two of your champions in Congress at the end of this term,

02:09:54.993 --> 02:09:56.773
Nancy Pelosi and Jasmine Crockett.

02:09:57.053 --> 02:10:02.133
And you might have answered it already, but when you had mentioned something

02:10:02.133 --> 02:10:06.873
about the HIV caucus, but do you see any new champions emerging?

02:10:08.053 --> 02:10:15.353
Oh, yes, we are definitely in the process of watching several new champions emerge.

02:10:15.353 --> 02:10:22.173
So one of them is from your home state and the district is representing part

02:10:22.173 --> 02:10:23.913
of Chicago with Delia Ramirez.

02:10:24.353 --> 02:10:27.533
She's in her second term, I believe.

02:10:27.873 --> 02:10:33.413
And she is someone who has come out really powerfully for HIV policies.

02:10:33.413 --> 02:10:38.553
And she came to our summit, our biomedical summit in April.

02:10:38.933 --> 02:10:43.553
And she was wonderful in our plenary, just telling us, you know,

02:10:43.653 --> 02:10:44.893
just the need to keep fighting.

02:10:45.353 --> 02:10:49.753
You know, keep fighting for communities that are not being, well,

02:10:49.973 --> 02:10:51.253
that are not being noticed.

02:10:51.433 --> 02:10:54.833
They're being noticed and they're actually being persecuted.

02:10:55.193 --> 02:11:00.513
So that's why we're looking for people such as her to really go on a limb and

02:11:00.513 --> 02:11:03.473
step out because we do need to build new champions.

02:11:03.653 --> 02:11:05.933
So she is definitely one. And

02:11:05.933 --> 02:11:09.073
we're in the process now of just talking to several Democratic members.

02:11:09.253 --> 02:11:12.613
We have Representative Takano representing California.

02:11:12.753 --> 02:11:17.633
He is not a new champion, but he is definitely one that has become more vocal

02:11:17.633 --> 02:11:21.773
over time as he's seen some of the injustices that are happening.

02:11:22.033 --> 02:11:29.493
So we are in the process of building new champions, especially ones that are new to Congress. And.

02:11:30.158 --> 02:11:36.078
If the midterms go the way many of us hope, we will have an opportunity to build

02:11:36.078 --> 02:11:38.938
some new champions that will be fresh in the door.

02:11:39.138 --> 02:11:43.858
And it's always fun to start a new Congress because you have new members that

02:11:43.858 --> 02:11:46.698
are just looking for their policy priority.

02:11:46.958 --> 02:11:50.518
And, you know, maybe they come in with a specific level of expertise,

02:11:50.518 --> 02:11:55.318
but if you expose them to this new area, they'll be like, oh, I'm interested in this.

02:11:55.438 --> 02:11:59.898
Let's talk more. And that's how sometimes you have people who have never talked

02:11:59.898 --> 02:12:03.578
about any of these issues coming in to and they're like, oh,

02:12:03.738 --> 02:12:07.898
I can be an HIV advocate or I can be a public health advocate now that I am

02:12:07.898 --> 02:12:09.378
more educated on these topics.

02:12:09.738 --> 02:12:13.638
So we're in the process. We know how important it is to build champions.

02:12:13.638 --> 02:12:17.538
And that's really what we're we're focused on now as we move into the next Congress.

02:12:18.478 --> 02:12:23.158
Yeah. All right. So y'all are a nonprofit, correct?

02:12:24.038 --> 02:12:29.058
Yes. Yeah. So y'all need money. That's one way to put it. Sure.

02:12:31.618 --> 02:12:38.918
Well, this is your cue to make the pitch as far as how people can donate,

02:12:39.118 --> 02:12:41.438
how people can get involved with NMAC and all that.

02:12:42.058 --> 02:12:47.238
Well, thank you so much, Erik, for that opening. If you are listening to this,

02:12:47.378 --> 02:12:51.698
you know, we're a nonprofit organization that's really fighting back and trying

02:12:51.698 --> 02:12:56.518
to make sure that the people that need us are getting served.

02:12:56.618 --> 02:13:00.498
So we're willing, we're working both sides of the aisle.

02:13:00.718 --> 02:13:03.538
We're willing to work with the administration and we're willing to work with

02:13:03.538 --> 02:13:05.038
anyone who wants to forward.

02:13:05.968 --> 02:13:12.568
The goal of ending the epidemic. So where we are right now is we are just always

02:13:12.568 --> 02:13:18.328
in need of funding to carry out especially our policy priorities as we expand

02:13:18.328 --> 02:13:20.628
our territory. That takes more money.

02:13:20.788 --> 02:13:24.028
So as we are moving into different spaces, into different circles,

02:13:24.028 --> 02:13:29.748
as we are expanding our state work, that is going to require probably more than

02:13:29.748 --> 02:13:32.868
one person over the course of time to cover all 50 states.

02:13:33.148 --> 02:13:36.348
So we're really looking to expand the work that we're doing.

02:13:36.388 --> 02:13:39.808
And we're really excited to do that, but that is going to take fun.

02:13:40.028 --> 02:13:46.128
So if you would like to talk more about NMAC, I am happy to chat.

02:13:46.328 --> 02:13:51.188
I can put my, I'm not really sure how to put my email out there, but I can do that.

02:13:51.568 --> 02:13:56.748
And, you know, happy to talk, happy to talk more about our priorities and happy

02:13:56.748 --> 02:14:00.548
to talk more about the investment being well worth it during this time when

02:14:00.548 --> 02:14:02.608
we're all kind of in the fight for our lives.

02:14:03.108 --> 02:14:08.208
Well, all of y'all's emails are on the website. So just tell people what the website is.

02:14:08.848 --> 02:14:12.988
It's www.nmac.org. Yeah. Yeah.

02:14:13.368 --> 02:14:18.548
Cause it's, it's really cool. Y'all they, you just like find the picture and

02:14:18.548 --> 02:14:20.228
bam, and the email's right there.

02:14:20.908 --> 02:14:25.188
So it's a very, very good website. It's very, thank you so much.

02:14:25.328 --> 02:14:28.548
And actually, thank you so much for saying that because we are really in the

02:14:28.548 --> 02:14:30.968
process of reworking and revamping it.

02:14:31.088 --> 02:14:35.628
So that's what we needed to hear. So I'll definitely let our team know. Yeah.

02:14:36.188 --> 02:14:41.188
All right. So to close this out, finish this sentence. I have hope because...

02:14:42.409 --> 02:14:47.589
I have hope because the people that came before me did not stop and they did

02:14:47.589 --> 02:14:53.709
not lose hope and they were in positions similar or worse than where we are today.

02:14:53.989 --> 02:14:59.309
And so when I look back at, you know, like my great grandmother who was a sharecropper

02:14:59.309 --> 02:15:02.609
and then, you know, looking at my grandmother who was domestic,

02:15:03.389 --> 02:15:09.329
like they continued on and they knew that there was a better day ahead,

02:15:09.329 --> 02:15:13.809
even if there was no possible way they could see it. And that's why I'm sitting here.

02:15:13.909 --> 02:15:20.349
So I continue to hope just based on the love and energy that was given before me.

02:15:20.869 --> 02:15:24.469
Well, Cecelia, Cece, Thomas, thank you.

02:15:24.829 --> 02:15:29.109
Not only for just coming on the podcast, but thank you for the work that you're doing.

02:15:29.789 --> 02:15:33.489
And on behalf of NMAC, the work that they're doing.

02:15:34.529 --> 02:15:39.369
Like you said, America has a very short attention span.

02:15:39.749 --> 02:15:44.949
Very. And so, you know, the fact that you are running into people in your work

02:15:44.949 --> 02:15:46.449
saying that's still a thing.

02:15:46.669 --> 02:15:50.549
Yes, ladies and gentlemen, it's still a thing. So I'm glad that your organization

02:15:50.549 --> 02:15:58.109
and you specifically are keeping us aware and fighting the good fight in Washington.

02:15:58.469 --> 02:16:05.069
And as you say, you're hoping to expand into all 50 states. I think it's vital work.

02:16:05.798 --> 02:16:11.358
And anything dealing with public health is important because that's all we got, right?

02:16:11.938 --> 02:16:15.138
Yes. And so I just thank you for doing that.

02:16:15.278 --> 02:16:19.538
And then the one thing I want to tell you is that I have a rule here on this

02:16:19.538 --> 02:16:24.358
podcast that once you've been a guest, you have an open meditation to come back.

02:16:24.358 --> 02:16:27.918
So you don't even have to wait for me to reach out to you. It's like,

02:16:28.098 --> 02:16:31.218
look, Eric, I need a platform. We need to talk about this.

02:16:31.618 --> 02:16:36.918
We'll make it happen. So, again, Ms. Thomas, thank you so much for coming on.

02:16:36.918 --> 02:16:38.678
Thank you, Erik. Enjoying the conversation.

02:16:39.038 --> 02:16:43.398
Thank you so much. This has meant so much to me, and I really just enjoyed the conversation.

02:16:43.578 --> 02:16:47.298
And thank you for giving NMAC and myself a platform in the future.

02:16:47.338 --> 02:16:48.418
I really appreciate you.

02:16:48.718 --> 02:16:50.918
All right, guys. So we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

02:17:02.808 --> 02:17:10.048
All right, we are back. And so I just want to thank Professor Gloria J.

02:17:10.248 --> 02:17:12.008
Browne-Marshall for coming on.

02:17:12.628 --> 02:17:22.008
I'm going to do my part to at least get some proclamations done for Martyrs Day here in the area.

02:17:22.848 --> 02:17:28.608
And if we can't even organize an event, but we've got time to do that.

02:17:28.608 --> 02:17:32.608
That is, you know, you got like a month before that kicks in.

02:17:32.748 --> 02:17:34.188
That's going to be July the 5th.

02:17:35.048 --> 02:17:40.008
So wherever you're listening, if you want to participate in that,

02:17:40.288 --> 02:17:43.988
go to, I think it's martyrsday.us.

02:17:44.588 --> 02:17:50.608
If I got that wrong, you can, you know, replay the interview and hear Professor

02:17:50.608 --> 02:17:53.188
Browne-Marshall give that out.

02:17:53.188 --> 02:17:59.968
But, or just, you know, type in Martyrs Day on your search engine and the website will come up.

02:18:00.628 --> 02:18:05.988
And, you know, participate in that because I think it's a beautiful thing to

02:18:05.988 --> 02:18:11.688
acknowledge the people who made a sacrifice.

02:18:12.168 --> 02:18:16.568
You know, we just had Memorial Day where we talk about our military people who

02:18:16.568 --> 02:18:18.028
made the ultimate sacrifice.

02:18:18.808 --> 02:18:22.948
But there have been average citizens that have made the sacrifice as well.

02:18:22.948 --> 02:18:32.128
And so I just think it's very insightful that Professor Browne-Marshall wanted to create a day for that.

02:18:32.728 --> 02:18:37.928
And if you listen to the interview, you know the reason and why they picked July the 5th.

02:18:38.268 --> 02:18:41.708
And we hope that we can make that a regular thing.

02:18:42.188 --> 02:18:43.888
So I'm going to do my part.

02:18:44.668 --> 02:18:46.808
And if y'all are listening, please.

02:18:47.801 --> 02:18:52.661
And feel motivated to do that, then, you know, in your respective cities and

02:18:52.661 --> 02:18:57.261
towns, you know, overlap is not a problem at this point because they're just

02:18:57.261 --> 02:19:02.481
getting started. And there's only a few cities. I think when I last time I checked, it was like six.

02:19:04.141 --> 02:19:10.281
So, you know, if you're in the New York area, go to Riverside Church for that event.

02:19:10.601 --> 02:19:13.181
But they also are going to stream it live.

02:19:14.021 --> 02:19:17.861
So, you know, you can go to the website and find out the times and all that stuff.

02:19:18.221 --> 02:19:25.881
I want to thank Mayor Betsy Hodges for coming on and talking about her experience

02:19:25.881 --> 02:19:28.581
being mayor of Minneapolis.

02:19:29.021 --> 02:19:33.821
She only served one term, but as you can tell by the interview,

02:19:34.181 --> 02:19:35.881
there were some things that went on there.

02:19:35.881 --> 02:19:44.741
And how she viewed her public service as part of her overall mission to end

02:19:44.741 --> 02:19:46.301
racism in the United States.

02:19:46.601 --> 02:19:48.541
I think that's a noble endeavor.

02:19:49.161 --> 02:19:55.841
And I like the way that she goes about it, right?

02:19:56.461 --> 02:20:02.361
And, you know, and she, and you can tell she has a very compelling story personally.

02:20:02.361 --> 02:20:13.921
And so the fact that she is vulnerable in her activism is very, very powerful.

02:20:14.401 --> 02:20:18.981
Now, you know, to be fair, there are some people that have been on this podcast.

02:20:19.950 --> 02:20:25.330
That ain't exactly quite eye to eye with her or, you know, other elected officials.

02:20:25.470 --> 02:20:28.470
And that's fine because that's what this process is all about.

02:20:28.670 --> 02:20:30.890
All of us need to be pushed, right?

02:20:31.310 --> 02:20:38.770
We can be allies and friends, but we all need to be pushed to do the right thing.

02:20:38.770 --> 02:20:46.590
Whenever justice needs to be rendered fairly and equitably, then,

02:20:46.750 --> 02:20:50.170
you know, sometimes we have to guide our friends to do the right thing.

02:20:51.210 --> 02:20:56.650
And so, you know, based on the conversation I had with her, I don't think she

02:20:56.650 --> 02:21:00.510
really had much of a complaint about it.

02:21:01.190 --> 02:21:07.090
But I just know being an elected official myself that if your heart's in the

02:21:07.090 --> 02:21:09.150
right place, it can get frustrating.

02:21:09.810 --> 02:21:14.730
But if you know that the people who are pushing you are in the right place too,

02:21:14.850 --> 02:21:21.810
and they're pushing the right thing, you get over that and you do your best to make things right.

02:21:22.190 --> 02:21:29.450
And then for Cecelia Thomas, I really, I wanted her to come on because I just

02:21:29.450 --> 02:21:33.810
wanted us to be reminded that HIV AIDS is still out there.

02:21:34.270 --> 02:21:38.790
You know, some of y'all that may have seen the commercials for like PEPFAR and

02:21:38.790 --> 02:21:43.950
all that kind of stuff on TV, along with all the other drugs that are out there on television.

02:21:45.430 --> 02:21:49.870
And a lot of times I know we kind of gloss over and don't know what is that drug for,

02:21:51.071 --> 02:22:00.231
All we hear is all the side effects because, you know, they legally have to put that out there.

02:22:00.671 --> 02:22:04.071
But, you know, the work that she's doing and her organization,

02:22:04.291 --> 02:22:12.031
NMAC, they're under relatively new leadership. I don't think the CEO has been there a full year yet.

02:22:12.291 --> 02:22:16.831
It's pretty close to a year now, though. But, you know, they basically had

02:22:16.831 --> 02:22:24.751
one person for like a long time. and, you know, majority of the existence of the organization.

02:22:25.531 --> 02:22:29.211
And so, you know, they're just like anybody else.

02:22:29.491 --> 02:22:35.911
They need money and they need support and they need to be uplifted because they're doing real work.

02:22:37.233 --> 02:22:41.373
And so I wish her continued success in what she's been doing.

02:22:41.573 --> 02:22:44.773
And hopefully she can build that army that she talked about in the interview

02:22:44.773 --> 02:22:52.053
in all 50 states to really have people doing the work and keeping the HIV AIDS

02:22:52.053 --> 02:22:57.133
issue in the forefront until the epidemic,

02:22:57.133 --> 02:23:00.273
as they put it, is eradicated.

02:23:00.273 --> 02:23:07.673
You know, we've come a long way with that and, you know, where people can live with it.

02:23:08.933 --> 02:23:13.353
But, you know, we still need to educate our young folks, you know,

02:23:13.413 --> 02:23:17.013
to try to keep them out of situations where they can contract it.

02:23:17.013 --> 02:23:20.373
And if they do contract it, then

02:23:20.373 --> 02:23:26.233
we want to be able to support them and make sure they can afford and obtain

02:23:26.233 --> 02:23:32.693
the medication that they need and continue to have awareness and identify support

02:23:32.693 --> 02:23:38.993
groups and continue to support elected officials that understand the magnitude of the situation.

02:23:39.493 --> 02:23:43.613
So all three of those ladies, thank you all again for coming on.

02:23:43.853 --> 02:23:46.013
Very powerful sisters, all of them.

02:23:46.893 --> 02:23:52.333
And, you know, much, much love to all of them and the work that they're doing.

02:23:52.853 --> 02:23:57.453
Now, real quick, I just, since now it's time to get off of the love train.

02:23:59.853 --> 02:24:03.533
And just talk about people who missed the train altogether. Now,

02:24:03.653 --> 02:24:09.693
if you listened to the interview with Mayor Hodges, I mentioned this guy, Andy Barr.

02:24:10.293 --> 02:24:14.653
So Andy Barr is currently a congressman in Kentucky. I mean,

02:24:14.773 --> 02:24:18.733
he just won a very, very contested primary matchup.

02:24:19.419 --> 02:24:23.219
For the United States Senate to replace Mitch McConnell in Kentucky.

02:24:24.759 --> 02:24:31.679
He beat a black man, Daniel Blackman, excuse me, who he's run for some other

02:24:31.679 --> 02:24:35.879
officers, but he was the attorney general for the state of Kentucky at one point.

02:24:36.299 --> 02:24:41.979
So he was a black statewide elected official. And he beat some guy who was like

02:24:41.979 --> 02:24:46.759
really rich, who had jumped in the race.

02:24:47.359 --> 02:24:52.239
But he had that commercial that said it's not a sin to be white, right?

02:24:53.239 --> 02:24:58.159
And then the other person who missed the train was our Secretary of Defense.

02:24:58.739 --> 02:25:05.559
He wants to hearken back to a day, you know, where it was actually called the Secretary of War.

02:25:06.199 --> 02:25:12.559
But, you know, the people that were secretaries of war were actually in wars.

02:25:12.779 --> 02:25:17.959
Like, you know, God, I forget the guy's name. I don't want to mispronounce it.

02:25:18.019 --> 02:25:21.719
I want to say Stanton, who was the Secretary of War during the Civil War,

02:25:21.739 --> 02:25:26.299
and all the other ones, you know, like the Revolutionary War and the War of

02:25:26.299 --> 02:25:31.299
1812, you know, where he'd just come out of Revolutionary War when the first

02:25:31.299 --> 02:25:32.379
administration kicked in.

02:25:32.379 --> 02:25:36.019
And so, you know, there was a time for that.

02:25:36.439 --> 02:25:43.579
But our primary function is defending the nation. When all people take the oath

02:25:43.579 --> 02:25:48.279
to serve in the military, they don't say we're going to war.

02:25:48.579 --> 02:25:54.359
We swear and affirm that we're going to defend the Constitution of the United States.

02:25:54.919 --> 02:26:01.439
So hence the name change, right? Even though the current administration is bombing

02:26:01.439 --> 02:26:04.499
any country that's brown or black,

02:26:05.699 --> 02:26:12.159
It's still, we're still not supposed to be initiating wars, and we're not currently,

02:26:12.639 --> 02:26:16.799
well, kind of technically we are in a war now, I guess.

02:26:17.139 --> 02:26:19.759
But we weren't in a war when they changed the name.

02:26:21.039 --> 02:26:24.639
We were not in a war when this administration came in.

02:26:25.379 --> 02:26:31.959
So I guess that should have been a sign. But anyway, Secretary Hegzev got in

02:26:31.959 --> 02:26:36.519
front of one of the military academies. I want to say it was the Army,

02:26:36.899 --> 02:26:39.659
but I can't, don't quote me on that.

02:26:39.779 --> 02:26:45.919
But I know he spoke to, because, you know, the Secretary of Defense rotates,

02:26:46.599 --> 02:26:50.759
like the President rotates, like they'll speak to one academy,

02:26:50.759 --> 02:26:54.859
and then the Secretary of Defense will speak to another academy,

02:26:55.039 --> 02:26:59.059
and then the other academy gets, you know, to choose whoever,

02:26:59.059 --> 02:27:01.499
former graduate, more than likely,

02:27:01.799 --> 02:27:06.259
or another military person, to speak at those commencements.

02:27:06.679 --> 02:27:13.119
And we only have three. We've got West Point, Annapolis, and Colorado Springs,

02:27:13.119 --> 02:27:17.119
or more appropriately, the U.S.

02:27:17.199 --> 02:27:21.719
Army, U.S. Navy, and U.S. Air Force, respectively.

02:27:22.619 --> 02:27:29.039
And so Hexup was speaking at one of those commencements, and he reiterated this

02:27:29.039 --> 02:27:35.139
mantra that he keeps saying that diversity is not our strength, right?

02:27:36.799 --> 02:27:41.579
So, Mr. Secretary, obviously you've never read anything that Booker T.

02:27:41.699 --> 02:27:46.959
Washington talked about or wrote, or any of his speeches that he gave,

02:27:47.299 --> 02:27:56.339
excuse me, because one of his mantras was that we can be as diverse as fingers on a hand,

02:27:56.679 --> 02:28:01.459
but we can be united like a fist, right?

02:28:02.099 --> 02:28:07.039
And, you know, his whole thing was, you know...

02:28:08.446 --> 02:28:13.386
Black people can do their own thing and they have their own culture and all that stuff.

02:28:13.506 --> 02:28:18.426
But when it comes to being Americans, we're going to band together and do what

02:28:18.426 --> 02:28:23.186
needs to be done, whether it's a war or whether it's lifting the economy or

02:28:23.186 --> 02:28:24.206
whatever the case may be.

02:28:24.406 --> 02:28:31.406
We will all do our part, but we can live our lives, right, and be our unique, true selves.

02:28:32.546 --> 02:28:36.446
And because Hegseth doesn't understand that concept.

02:28:36.576 --> 02:28:42.376
He thinks that everybody should be straight white Christian men in the military,

02:28:42.976 --> 02:28:45.416
especially in leadership positions.

02:28:46.216 --> 02:28:52.196
And, you know, my brief foray into the Marine Corps was based on the concept

02:28:52.196 --> 02:28:54.836
that it might be too white.

02:28:55.376 --> 02:29:02.416
Right. And so they created programs to try to recruit black men and black women

02:29:02.416 --> 02:29:09.316
to, you know, become officers and ascend to leadership in the different branches,

02:29:09.516 --> 02:29:11.476
especially in my case, the Marine Corps.

02:29:11.476 --> 02:29:16.736
And so, you know, he, he didn't get that memo.

02:29:17.116 --> 02:29:23.956
I guess that was before his time. So he, he doesn't understand that if you want

02:29:23.956 --> 02:29:29.756
to field an army of Americans, you have to be diverse. And.

02:29:30.745 --> 02:29:38.045
Our strength comes in our acceptance of people who are different than us,

02:29:38.185 --> 02:29:44.225
but we're all united for a common cause, like defending the nation.

02:29:44.665 --> 02:29:50.265
You know, I obviously never saw any World War II films, documentaries,

02:29:50.585 --> 02:29:57.485
or even Hollywood productions, you know, that highlighted the diversity, right?

02:29:57.725 --> 02:30:05.165
The Native Americans who could break code, the Tuskegee Airmen or the Red Ball

02:30:05.165 --> 02:30:09.285
Express or anything like that. He has no clue about that.

02:30:09.985 --> 02:30:13.945
But, you know, and then whatever clue he did have, he was trying to erase it.

02:30:14.964 --> 02:30:20.524
You know, and some of our most distinguished veterans in history haven't all

02:30:20.524 --> 02:30:22.044
been straight white Christian men.

02:30:23.064 --> 02:30:28.524
And, you know, hopefully, you know, if he, if he's not going to get it,

02:30:28.724 --> 02:30:33.304
then we know that by 2029, he won't be in that position anymore.

02:30:33.984 --> 02:30:38.684
So I guess we just got to hold on if he doesn't have his Damascus Road experience

02:30:38.684 --> 02:30:43.724
and come to some enlightenment and realize Because diversity is our strength,

02:30:44.084 --> 02:30:47.344
and I really wish you would stop saying the opposite.

02:30:47.744 --> 02:30:55.024
But going back to Mr. Barr, nobody is saying that it's a sin to be white. The sin is racism.

02:30:55.604 --> 02:31:00.424
The sin is white supremacy, right? That's the sin.

02:31:00.924 --> 02:31:03.784
It's not just being a white person.

02:31:03.784 --> 02:31:08.524
Because, you know, all of us people of color,

02:31:09.324 --> 02:31:15.104
have white people that we socialize with, that some would consider good friends,

02:31:15.324 --> 02:31:19.864
some that would literally give the shirt off their back.

02:31:19.864 --> 02:31:23.644
Some would even be willing to take a bullet for us, right?

02:31:24.104 --> 02:31:27.864
And Martyrs Day kind of highlights that, right?

02:31:28.484 --> 02:31:33.144
That there have been some white people that have taken stands on behalf of the

02:31:33.144 --> 02:31:36.904
struggles of people of color and gave their life for that.

02:31:37.724 --> 02:31:45.824
So, you know, that feeding into that misconception, feeding into that fear to

02:31:45.824 --> 02:31:50.184
then turn around and serve a public that's not 100% white.

02:31:51.198 --> 02:31:57.958
Is really, really terrible politics. You know, people in Kentucky that were

02:31:57.958 --> 02:32:06.058
writing stories about the commercial that he did said it was a racist commercial, right?

02:32:07.358 --> 02:32:13.198
And, you know, their whole thing is, well, you know, they're just trying to,

02:32:13.198 --> 02:32:15.718
you know, catch favor with Trump.

02:32:16.138 --> 02:32:20.158
So when people turn around and say, well, Trump's not racist,

02:32:20.158 --> 02:32:25.378
It's like, well, why is it that people who want to get favor and get the endorsement

02:32:25.378 --> 02:32:28.358
of Donald Trump throw out these racist tropes?

02:32:28.778 --> 02:32:32.618
If he's not a racist, then that should offend him. Right.

02:32:33.178 --> 02:32:37.998
But people keep doing it. So therefore, there's a connection.

02:32:38.618 --> 02:32:45.878
Right. So I just, you know, I pray that Mr.

02:32:46.058 --> 02:32:51.818
Booker wins the hearts and minds of the citizens of the Commonwealth of Kentucky

02:32:51.818 --> 02:32:57.118
and actually represents them in Washington,

02:32:57.258 --> 02:33:03.158
D.C., as opposed to a guy who has this hang up or uses rhetoric that he has

02:33:03.158 --> 02:33:06.578
a hang up and thinking that being white is a sin.

02:33:06.578 --> 02:33:12.798
I think if your mindset is like that, I don't think you're ready to continue

02:33:12.798 --> 02:33:17.018
in public service because he's already been elected to Congress.

02:33:17.198 --> 02:33:19.298
I think we've got enough of that.

02:33:19.618 --> 02:33:24.718
We need to wean ourselves in America away from that mindset.

02:33:25.318 --> 02:33:29.718
And again, start talking about real American leadership, which understands that

02:33:29.718 --> 02:33:37.378
our diversity is our strength. and we can respect people from wherever they come from.

02:33:38.433 --> 02:33:44.573
And believe that they have contributions to give and to make sure that since

02:33:44.573 --> 02:33:50.633
they fall under the Constitution of the United States, the preamble again sends the guideline.

02:33:50.973 --> 02:33:53.473
You know, we're supposed to promote the general welfare.

02:33:54.713 --> 02:34:00.253
And so, you know, if people really thought that it was a sin to be white,

02:34:00.453 --> 02:34:02.633
then white people would be struggling,

02:34:02.973 --> 02:34:11.613
not just the select few, like in the Appalachian region in Kentucky or other spots, but everywhere.

02:34:12.678 --> 02:34:18.018
So, you know, that's just a misnomer, let alone a thing.

02:34:18.218 --> 02:34:26.978
And it's like to say that acknowledging our history and learning about some

02:34:26.978 --> 02:34:30.998
of the things that happened like Jim Crow and slavery, that,

02:34:31.358 --> 02:34:33.038
you know, it's a guilt trip.

02:34:33.538 --> 02:34:38.318
Well, the only way that it's a guilt trip is if you have any empathy at all,

02:34:39.158 --> 02:34:42.218
right? those people who want to erase history.

02:34:42.558 --> 02:34:46.178
I was watching a documentary on Ulysses S.

02:34:46.298 --> 02:34:54.278
Grant, and one of the people was saying that President Grant got a bad rap because

02:34:54.278 --> 02:35:00.998
of this whole lost cause mythology that took over the nation, right?

02:35:01.298 --> 02:35:03.818
Or at least a good portion of it.

02:35:05.238 --> 02:35:09.318
And, you know, when you talk about, and especially from a black perspective,

02:35:09.718 --> 02:35:16.218
all the things that he did to kind of step in and maintain what Lincoln was

02:35:16.218 --> 02:35:18.818
trying to do if he had lived, right?

02:35:19.278 --> 02:35:24.458
And fix whatever damage that Andrew Johnson did in the brief time that he was

02:35:24.458 --> 02:35:28.938
president between Lincoln's assassination in 1868.

02:35:28.938 --> 02:35:35.218
You know, President Grant was the one that pushed the 14th and 15th Amendment,

02:35:35.578 --> 02:35:37.398
you know, the Freedmen's Bureau,

02:35:37.858 --> 02:35:43.558
all these different things to try to give newly free black people a leg up,

02:35:44.018 --> 02:35:49.438
even sending troops to the South to make sure that the white folks didn't harass black people.

02:35:51.018 --> 02:35:57.118
And so, you know, let alone being the general that won the Civil War and kept

02:35:57.118 --> 02:36:00.798
the nation together, you know, it's been a bad rap.

02:36:00.938 --> 02:36:07.118
But it's been because there's always been this element, and it seems like it

02:36:07.118 --> 02:36:13.078
generates from the South for whatever reason, even prior to the Civil War.

02:36:13.078 --> 02:36:18.798
And it just seems perpetuated, like organizations like the Klan and the United

02:36:18.798 --> 02:36:21.058
Daughters of the Confederacy and all that stuff,

02:36:21.978 --> 02:36:33.398
you know, to just continue to poison our culture with this white supremacist rhetoric.

02:36:34.078 --> 02:36:42.258
And some are more extreme than others, but, you know, it's still bad either way. So, Mr.

02:36:42.398 --> 02:36:46.218
Barr, the sin is not being white.

02:36:46.678 --> 02:36:54.758
The sin is perpetuating whiteness as supreme.

02:36:56.138 --> 02:37:03.038
The sin is playing on ignorance and perpetuating further ignorance.

02:37:03.038 --> 02:37:09.218
The sin is being short-sighted in your political vision.

02:37:10.518 --> 02:37:15.258
If we can get past that, then we can have a better nation.

02:37:15.818 --> 02:37:23.278
But, you know, it should be a criteria, no matter what politicians are saying,

02:37:24.598 --> 02:37:30.018
no matter from a liberal or conservative perspective, The common denominator

02:37:30.018 --> 02:37:38.278
should be that they should be pushing policies to benefit all Americans,

02:37:38.698 --> 02:37:40.258
not just a select few,

02:37:40.698 --> 02:37:42.438
whether it's based on race or wealth.

02:37:44.302 --> 02:37:51.542
So if we can get past that sin, then we'll truly be a blessed nation or we'll

02:37:51.542 --> 02:37:53.742
be fulfilling our blessing.

02:37:54.802 --> 02:37:58.962
So I'm not going to hold y'all too much longer. I just wanted to get that off

02:37:58.962 --> 02:38:04.082
my chest because like I've been telling people throughout the week and you've

02:38:04.082 --> 02:38:07.842
heard from following the podcast, you know that this is my therapy.

02:38:08.442 --> 02:38:14.042
Y'all, this is how I get through, you know, talking to you all.

02:38:14.302 --> 02:38:20.002
And and y'all responding to, you know, the not only the interviews,

02:38:20.262 --> 02:38:25.342
but the commentary that I give, because there has it's got to get better.

02:38:25.922 --> 02:38:30.562
And I believe that it will get better, but we got to work at it.

02:38:31.162 --> 02:38:36.002
Coretta Scott King basically said, you've got to work at freedom every day. Right.

02:38:36.542 --> 02:38:40.042
And that's that's what I'm trying to do with this podcast.

02:38:40.102 --> 02:38:43.302
And hopefully that's what y'all are trying to do in your community.

02:38:43.302 --> 02:38:49.202
So, you know, there'll be a time when the Andy Bars and the P.

02:38:49.342 --> 02:38:54.042
Hegsivs and the Donald Trumps and everybody else will be just like the Tyrannosaurus

02:38:54.042 --> 02:38:56.082
Rex and the Dodo Bird. They'll be extinct.

02:38:57.082 --> 02:39:04.022
And generations of Americans henceforth will work with the concept that Booker T.

02:39:04.142 --> 02:39:08.382
Washington talked about to be as diverse as the fingers on a hand,

02:39:08.662 --> 02:39:12.942
but united as a fist. All right, guys, that's all I got.