Leadership, Artificial Intimacy & Political Power Featuring Dr. Erica B. Wattley, Victoria Hetherington and Pamela Campos-Palma

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Hello, welcome to another moment, Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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So on this episode, I've got three guests who are three very fascinating women.

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I have Dr. Erica Wattley, who's going to talk about leadership.

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I have Victoria Hetherington, who is going to talk about her book,

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The Friend Machine, which deals with relationships with artificial intelligence.

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Yes, it's a very fascinating interview and an incredible book.

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And Pamela Campos-Palma, who has decided to be more of a free agent in her political

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strategy and organizing,

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but she has founded organizations, she has led organizations.

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And she is still engaged in the fight for veterans and for marginalized people,

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in the political process.

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So I think you're going to enjoy the conversations with all three of these women,

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and just like you enjoy this podcast.

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We ask people that if you do support the podcast, please do so by going to www.momenteric.com.

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You know, make a financial contribution either as a one-time donation or subscription.

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Catch up on episodes, the whole nine yards. So we greatly appreciate your continued

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support even by listening.

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And, you know, these are interesting times. and I've been very fortunate to

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have interesting people,

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analyze and discuss these times that we are in and we are hoping that we are

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inspiring some people, that we are energizing some people, that we are encouraging people.

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Because the one thing we never want to lose in this time is hope.

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All right. So now that I've gotten us caught up and set up for this episode,

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it's time to kick it off. And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Thanks, Erik. A private autopsy of Nolan Wells, a black college football player

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found dead off the coast of Mississippi, could not rule out foul play,

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prompting his family to demand further investigation.

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A coalition of mostly Democratic-led states sued to block the Department of

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Homeland Security from withholding over $1 billion in disaster preparedness

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grants to force states into adopting the Trump administration's preferred election practices.

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U.S. Representative Ralph Norman and Senator Darlene Graham will run in a South

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Carolina Republican special primary to replace the late U.S.

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Senator Lindsey Graham.

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Former Maine Senate President Troy Jackson has effectively secured the Democratic

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nomination to challenge incumbent Republican U.S. Senator Susan Collins.

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Democrat Amish Shah and Republican Jay Feely won their respective primaries

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for Arizona's first congressional district, while U.S. Representative Andy Biggs

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secured the Republican nomination for governor.

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Vance Velter received a life sentence in federal prison for assassinating one

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Minnesota Democratic lawmaker, Melissa Hortman, and attempting to murder another.

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A U.S. judge set a June 2027 trial date for ousted Venezuelan President Nicolas

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Maduro on drug trafficking charges, though his defense plans to seek dismissal

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by citing sovereign immunity.

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U.S. Army veteran Andrew Arabaca was arrested after protesting ICE by pouring

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gasoline and setting a fire at a federal building in Lower Manhattan.

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The Trump administration is withdrawing controversial subpoenas issued to New

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York Times journalists during a leak investigation regarding the president's flights.

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A Texas appeals court reversed the closure of three clinics managed by a Houston

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midwife, ruling the state attorney general lacked evidence that she violated

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the state's abortion ban.

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And the CDC reported 4,173 lab-confirmed cases of cyclosporiasis across 41 states since May 1st,

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with over 7,400 additional cases still under investigation.

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I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for

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my guest, Dr. Erica B. Wattley.

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Dr. Wattley, renowned for her leadership as the number one nationally ranked

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salesperson for T-Mobile in 2024 and 2025, she is currently the sales director at IntelliCom.

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And previously, she was the global director of customer success for cybersecurity

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operations in North and Latin America at Hush Cyber LLC in Atlanta.

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In addition to managing the overall effectiveness of the client support specialists

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as they coordinate with the client support manager, Dr.

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Wattley tracks and optimizes key metrics, provides global network security policy

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management support for international and U.S.

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Clients, and, among other responsibilities, ensures that customers have access

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to customized solutions that suit their network environment.

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Having entered the industry more than 15 years ago, Dr. Wattley was chief academic

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officer at Frame Change from 2020 to 2022 and Cybersecurity Institute between 2016 and 2017.

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She also leveraged her expertise as a Senior Advisor Program Manager of Technology

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Infrastructure and Managing Professor of Online Programs at Argozi University from 2009 to 2016.

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Among other noteworthy roles, Dr. Wattley provided her services in a consultant capacity.

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Besides her professional goals, Dr. Wattley has been active in the classroom.

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In addition to serving as a professor at Unity College.

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She has been an assistant professor of technical instructional design at the

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University of Washington since 2020 and an adjunct professor at the Chicago

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School of Professional Psychology since 2020.

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As a scholar and expert in her field, Dr. Wiley has authored many professional

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cybersecurity articles, including Start with the One in the Mirror,

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Building the Best Cybersecurity Customer Success Team, A Guide to Team Building Done Right in 2023.

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Cybersecurity Customer Success Plans, Measuring Security Protocol Performance

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Trust, Your CSM, in 2023,

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and Facing Something New, Trust Yourself and Be a Boss, Customer Success Manager's

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Guide to Confidence, also in 2023.

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She has also contributed several book chapters and has spoken publicly in the field.

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An avid leader in her community, like her great uncle, Dr.

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Benjamin Elijah Mays, senior advisor and spiritual mentor to Dr.

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Martin Luther King Jr., and advisors to President Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, and Ford, Dr.

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Wattley has notably served as a national media spokesperson for AdoptUsKids.org,

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National Adoption Association, advocating and encouraging everyone to help find

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forever families for children since 2024,

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and JustPennies.org, an organization dedicated to social change through education

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and technology and cybersecurity-related fields.

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She has also served as a board member for organizations that support youth development,

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like the Atlanta Girls Choir, founded by Daryl and Mag Wattley,

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Campus Insights, A-Plus Enrichment Services, and Studio X Elite Dance Company.

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Also as a Georgia representative for the National Young Leaders Conference in Washington, D.C.

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Highly educated, Dr. Wadley completed a course of study in Portuguese at the

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Universidade de Coimbra in Portugal.

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She subsequently graduated with distinction and earned a bachelor's degree in

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Spanish language and literature from the Universidad de Valladolid in Spain,

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and a second bachelor's of education and bachelor of arts in Spanish language

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and literature and education from Iowa State University's,

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School of Science and Technology on a full academic scholarship.

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Mover, Dr. Wadley completed a Master of Science in Adult Learning and Leadership

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and a Doctor in Education and Administrative Leadership from Walden University.

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She speaks Spanish, Portuguese, French, and English fluently.

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To remain aware of developments in the field, Dr. Wattley has been a board member

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of the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages.

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Dr. Wattley has received several awards for her work in education,

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including being named as the External Partner Engagement Coordinator of the

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Year, as the Georgia Cyber Academy's Teacher of the Year, and as Radio 1,

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of Atlanta's Community Teacher of the Year.

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She also earned numerous accolades for her educational accomplishments,

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including more than 40 academic trophies, and being named as the Iowa State

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University of Science and Technology's Ronald E. McNair Scholar and Researcher.

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Dr. Wattley credits her success to her Christian faith in God,

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her parents, Reverend Tyrone Hicks, a retired federal agent,

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and Janice Hicks, a retired teacher of the year.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest,

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on this podcast, Dr. Erica B. Wattley.

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All right. Dr. Erica B. Wattley. How are you doing, Cicely? You doing good?

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I am doing great. Erik, thank you so much for having me.

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Well, thank you for accepting the invitation. You know, I had to do a little

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rearranging on the schedule, but we got you back on. So I'm really, really glad about that.

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So one of the things I like to do to kick the conversation off is I do a couple

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of icebreaker exercises.

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You being a facilitator, you know what that is. And hopefully it might not be

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as fun and engaging as yours, but we're going to try it. Okay.

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And I hope I don't lose this game. All right, let's go. All right.

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So the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.

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Okay. And the quote is, the tragedy of life doesn't lie in not reaching your goal.

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The tragedy lies in having no goal to reach.

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It isn't a calamity to die with dreams unfulfilled, but it is a calamity not to dream.

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It is not a disgrace not to reach the stars, but it is a disgrace to have no stars to reach for.

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Not failure, but low aim is sin.

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That actually, if I'm not mistaken, is a quote from Dr. Benjamin Elijah Mays,

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who happens to be my great uncle.

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And the school I graduated from,

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Benjamin Elijah Mays High School in the Atlanta public school system.

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That school was named for him and he's buried on the campus of Morehouse College.

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I mean, he was the president there for seven years and he was an advisor to

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four different presidents.

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Yeah, yeah. So what does that quote mean to you?

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Another, I'll start by saying that I heard a preacher say one time that.

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One of his concerns was that he feared that we were raising a generation,

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not that wasn't doing the right thing, but didn't even know what the right thing was.

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And so it kind of fits in with that to me, that if you don't even have a goal

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that you're reaching for, you don't even have a vision, you have nothing that

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you are trying to accomplish.

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And unfortunately, I see that a lot lately.

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I mean, I know that it takes time to really kind of come into yourself.

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I still feel like I'm evolving like every day and trying to get better,

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but I feel like there is a lot of, as our culture has changed into,

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I guess, let's keep it 100, you know, or let's, you know, keep it real.

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I think a lot of people have kind of leaned into a, I'm just going to go with

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how I feel and live in the moment and that kind of thing.

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And it has made it to where the achievement of goals, setting goals,

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and looking toward what's in the future and how do I get there,

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putting a plan of action in place and doing things on a regular basis that are

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going to actually get you to that goal.

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Those are disciplines that are not always being practiced.

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Yeah. All right. So, and by the way, if we had a prize, you would have won since

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you knew that was your great uncle that said that.

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The next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions. Okay. So I need you to give

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me a number between one and 20.

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Seven. All right. What do you consider the best way to stay informed about politics,

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current events, health, et cetera?

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I'm the worst. Oh my God. That's the worst thing you could ask me.

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I'm a person where things loop in my head, right? And so the news completely

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stresses me out because they come on and they tell you, oh my God, there was a,

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war or somebody dropped a bomb or this terrible thing happened to this family

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or whatever. And they're like, news at 10.

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And then you're like, wait, I'm not gonna be here at 10 or whatever.

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And you never, they never tell you the end of the story.

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So I'm just like stressed out about the war, the bomb, you know,

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this thing that happens to the family, and they never tell you the answer, right?

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So I am very bad about staying current with those trends, and I end up getting them by third party.

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They have to be really important to come up for me. But honestly,

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I do get them. I attend a lot of events with the council for quality growth.

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And I feel like I get them before they hit the news.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause if you show up at a think tank like that,

00:17:20.933 --> 00:17:26.268
yeah, that's going to be, uh, that's going to be some, what they call insider information.

00:17:26.843 --> 00:17:30.458
Yes. Yeah. So you, you get, you get the news before it hits,

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but that's the whole point doc about the, it's a teaser.

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It's supposed to get you excited to figure out, yeah, I want to see,

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I want to see, I want to see this bomb drop i want it whatever whatever the

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news teaser is yeah but they i see they got to work harder to get you to watch

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the local news anyway but that's fine that's good,

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what do you love about being an educator and when did you acknowledge that was your calling,

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okay so,

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i think i think.

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For me, so I taught for 15 years in the K-12 sector, and then I taught for 12

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years at the university level.

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What ended up happening was, initially, my love was not for education itself,

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but it was for my languages. So I speak Spanish, French, and Portuguese,

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and I just absolutely was in love with Spanish.

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And so I won best in Spanish one, two, three, four, and five most outstanding

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high school student for foreign languages for the city of Atlanta.

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I went to governor's honors in Spanish then I went and studied at la Universidad

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de Valladolid in Spain and I got a sobresaliente rating from there in Portugal.

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I was one of three students selected from Iowa State.

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I went to Paris You know, when I was on vacations there, studying in Spain.

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And so I just loved languages. Iowa State had a requirement that if you graduated

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with a language, you had to have a bachelor's in education, a whole bachelor's.

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So I got a bachelor's in secondary education.

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And then once I got in and I was, I absolutely loved it. I loved, loved, loved it.

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And I became teacher of the year for Georgia Cyber. So, and that's Georgia's

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largest high school, a school in Georgia.

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So I, I just absolutely loved it. I love my, my content and I love sharing that

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love of language, of culture,

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of, you know, travel, of understanding other people, understanding yourself

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because you understand others in a different way, in a global sense. Yeah.

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I just, I absolutely love that. Yeah. It's amazing to hear you talk and you

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just flow from those different languages.

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I took Spanish in college and the only Spanish people I knew were the teachers.

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So I wasn't going to immerse myself with them and hang out with them.

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Had I gone to college during this time in history, I'd probably be proficient

00:20:04.468 --> 00:20:09.528
in Spanish because Jackson, Mississippi has an incredible Latino population

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now. But, you know, when I was in college, it was, yeah,

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we didn't have the interaction. And I think immersion is so important in that.

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And, but you are so, I mean, just listening to you rattling off the schools

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that you went to in the native language, that's, I think that's an amazing, amazing talent.

00:20:31.088 --> 00:20:36.378
And I'm glad that you felt the love to teach that, you know,

00:20:36.378 --> 00:20:39.848
because some people just use it like you're in the business community.

00:20:39.848 --> 00:20:41.410
So you just use it to make money.

00:20:41.938 --> 00:20:47.296
But you wanted to share that love. And I think that's important for the listeners to know.

00:20:48.389 --> 00:20:54.136
What moment in your life moved you from being stuck between potential and progress?

00:20:55.980 --> 00:20:57.333
Potential and progress.

00:20:59.258 --> 00:21:05.978
The connector, I would say, between potential and progress is action. That's the connector.

00:21:06.358 --> 00:21:13.983
That is, and I'm a person probably who does like way too much action, right?

00:21:15.725 --> 00:21:17.640
Because I kind of can't sit still, right?

00:21:18.795 --> 00:21:22.330
But, and I think they have a term terminology for that nowadays where they call

00:21:22.330 --> 00:21:25.867
it fail fast, do something, get started.

00:21:26.318 --> 00:21:34.030
But I, knowing that I could do something and that progress, I have to be doing,

00:21:34.390 --> 00:21:35.533
I have to be doing something.

00:21:35.840 --> 00:21:39.992
And so I always have some goal that I have to be working on.

00:21:40.327 --> 00:21:45.368
And because if you think about it, if you're not growing and if you're not changing,

00:21:45.990 --> 00:21:50.020
the only alternative is that you're dying really,

00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:55.160
and it because you're it even even if you don't use your muscles like if you

00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:59.930
lay in bed and you don't use your muscles they atrophy they they go bad if you

00:21:59.930 --> 00:22:03.628
have fruit and you sit it and you just don't touch it it's gonna it's gonna rot

00:22:03.994 --> 00:22:08.500
and that's what happens with our lives if we're not growing if we're not changing

00:22:08.500 --> 00:22:12.330
if we're not evolving if we are not getting better if we're not transforming

00:22:12.690 --> 00:22:14.669
that's absolutely what's going to happen.

00:22:14.988 --> 00:22:19.890
And, you know, iron sharpens iron. So if you are not surrounding yourself with

00:22:19.890 --> 00:22:25.130
people who are in that same mindset or in a higher mindset than you are and

00:22:25.130 --> 00:22:26.580
doing different things.

00:22:27.555 --> 00:22:32.620
I just remember originally, this is going to sound super, I know I'll probably

00:22:32.620 --> 00:22:36.390
get some flack for this, but I'm from the South, okay?

00:22:37.032 --> 00:22:41.972
My grandparents had 11 children, okay? My grandma grandkids got married in 217.

00:22:42.245 --> 00:22:45.693
They were married their entire lives until death did them part, right?

00:22:46.162 --> 00:22:50.070
And they had 11 kids. And so I'm from the South. I was like,

00:22:50.070 --> 00:22:52.130
I'm going to get married and have 11 kids too, right?

00:22:53.971 --> 00:22:58.690
And so I was going to college and I was like, I'm going to college and I'm going

00:22:58.690 --> 00:23:01.470
to become a doctor and I'm going to have kids and stay home.

00:23:01.470 --> 00:23:04.350
And they were like, why do you need a doctor to have kids and stay home?

00:23:04.350 --> 00:23:08.070
It was like, because I want my kids to have the best. So they'll have a doctor

00:23:08.070 --> 00:23:09.911
mom who stays home, right?

00:23:10.288 --> 00:23:12.314
Like you don't need a doctor to have tears. Like what?

00:23:14.851 --> 00:23:18.455
Obviously, I don't stay home at work, but that's not the point.

00:23:19.053 --> 00:23:24.073
The point is, I still was like, while I am waiting to find Mr.

00:23:24.073 --> 00:23:27.708
Right or Mr. Right to find me, I still have to work, right?

00:23:28.196 --> 00:23:32.693
And I'm still reaching these goals. So that kind of thing about,

00:23:32.693 --> 00:23:39.173
you know, that potential or getting there and progressing, we have to be in a mode of progress.

00:23:39.173 --> 00:23:44.483
And if you think about people died for us to have the right to sit in the seats

00:23:44.483 --> 00:23:47.676
that we sit in, for us to walk in the rooms that we walk in,

00:23:48.245 --> 00:23:50.812
for us to have these conversations.

00:23:51.449 --> 00:23:53.487
They died for us to be here.

00:23:54.136 --> 00:23:55.930
And we owe them.

00:23:56.994 --> 00:24:00.983
We owe it to them. We owe it to ourselves. We owe it to our future generations

00:24:00.983 --> 00:24:05.733
to take advantage of every moment that's given to us. And so,

00:24:05.733 --> 00:24:09.799
like, I'm the oldest of 32 grandkids. Remember I said grandma and grandma had 11 kids.

00:24:10.171 --> 00:24:13.044
So imagine all of them got married and had three to six kids each. And there you go.

00:24:13.561 --> 00:24:18.813
So I'm the oldest of 32 grandkids. And when I was going off to college,

00:24:18.813 --> 00:24:20.923
they were like, okay, everyone's watching you.

00:24:21.943 --> 00:24:26.363
And if you mess up, they're going to all mess up too. So if you fail,

00:24:26.363 --> 00:24:29.353
then they're all going to fail college. So you don't fail. And I went to school.

00:24:29.353 --> 00:24:32.703
I was super nervous. And I was like, oh my God, I felt like I had like the whole,

00:24:32.703 --> 00:24:36.535
all 32 of them on my back to every class that I went. Right.

00:24:37.315 --> 00:24:41.163
And so that kind of weight is weighty, right?

00:24:41.732 --> 00:24:45.593
But in a way, we have to have a little weight, you know, in our lives so we

00:24:45.593 --> 00:24:50.544
can keep going and we'll know exactly what it is we're doing and how important it is.

00:24:51.386 --> 00:24:55.577
Yeah. See, my, mine is inverse. So I was an only child.

00:24:56.086 --> 00:25:00.643
So my thinking was if I screw up, you know, then my parents are going to be

00:25:00.643 --> 00:25:03.693
looked at as like, bro, at least you should have had another one.

00:25:03.693 --> 00:25:06.343
So you'd increase the odds or something like that. You know what I'm saying?

00:25:06.343 --> 00:25:07.695
It was like, I had to pray.

00:25:08.026 --> 00:25:12.008
I had the pressure of being the only child and I had to succeed.

00:25:12.556 --> 00:25:16.993
Oh, wow. Because there were no other options, you know, now growing up,

00:25:16.993 --> 00:25:19.586
that meant I had to do all the chores and all this stuff but,

00:25:20.210 --> 00:25:24.653
you know but that was I guess that was the same motivation just in reverse it

00:25:24.653 --> 00:25:28.943
was like I was their only shot to do something and I remember I used to get

00:25:28.943 --> 00:25:31.814
in my parents we got adults and they'd be saying well you could have done this

00:25:32.127 --> 00:25:34.287
hey I didn't go to jail all right so let's,

00:25:34.943 --> 00:25:41.383
let's let's start let's start you know I can go to prison I you know I'm not a drug dealer so you know,

00:25:41.983 --> 00:25:47.073
let's let's kind of you know balance out at the criticism a little bit,

00:25:47.073 --> 00:25:51.723
but I mean, we used to do that in fun, but I just, I understand about that pressure

00:25:51.723 --> 00:25:53.656
and all that, which leads me to this next question.

00:25:54.304 --> 00:25:59.783
You once said that progress doesn't wait for perfection. It waits for leadership.

00:26:00.236 --> 00:26:04.783
And I think that's a profound, that you do it in an educational or a business

00:26:04.783 --> 00:26:08.683
setting, but I think it's very, very profound in politics as well.

00:26:08.683 --> 00:26:11.127
But what did you mean by that quote?

00:26:12.215 --> 00:26:14.955
So many times when we talk about,

00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:20.358
There's a lot of things that we wait before we kind of put it out there.

00:26:20.714 --> 00:26:26.129
I'm working on this project or this prototype or this, I'm working on this business,

00:26:26.443 --> 00:26:28.672
but it's not ready for people to see, right?

00:26:29.345 --> 00:26:33.111
I don't want to share it yet. This art I'm working on, this song I'm working

00:26:33.111 --> 00:26:38.593
on, this whatever I'm doing, this program, this summer camp, this whatever it is.

00:26:39.861 --> 00:26:42.917
We hold back so, so many times, right?

00:26:43.522 --> 00:26:49.391
But you've got to start somewhere, right? And I think the Bible says despise

00:26:49.391 --> 00:26:52.032
not the day of small beginnings. Right.

00:26:52.701 --> 00:26:56.054
And so it's like you shouldn't hate.

00:26:58.167 --> 00:27:03.722
The tiny start. Everything started small. Everything started with one.

00:27:05.350 --> 00:27:07.179
Every giant corporation that we see.

00:27:08.270 --> 00:27:12.042
Began with one idea, right?

00:27:13.170 --> 00:27:16.855
One conversation, one scribble on a notepad.

00:27:17.558 --> 00:27:24.507
And if you wait for the perfect day, the perfect time, the perfect setting,

00:27:25.178 --> 00:27:28.446
all the perfect people to be in, your hair to be perfect, right?

00:27:29.067 --> 00:27:32.161
You're never going to do it. You're never going to get started, right?

00:27:32.429 --> 00:27:37.709
And you're never going to have any success at all. Yeah, it's like...

00:27:39.030 --> 00:27:46.710
In the political sense, a lot of good people don't run for office because they'll

00:27:46.710 --> 00:27:52.231
say I'm not perfect. And one of my favorite political sayings is from Reverend Jesse Jackson, Sr.

00:27:52.777 --> 00:27:56.202
He says, I'm not a perfect servant. I'm a public servant. Right.

00:27:56.914 --> 00:28:01.697
And so, you know, the whole goal is if you've got an idea, if you see something,

00:28:02.333 --> 00:28:07.290
that needs to be changed, then step out there and do it. Now, Graham Plattner did it.

00:28:07.949 --> 00:28:13.310
It didn't go so well for him. But I admire the fact that even though he knew

00:28:13.310 --> 00:28:17.090
he had some struggles, he felt compelled to go out there and say,

00:28:17.090 --> 00:28:19.884
look, I'm offering myself for this. Right.

00:28:20.516 --> 00:28:25.330
And and and what he ended up doing, even though he's not going to personally

00:28:25.330 --> 00:28:32.119
benefit from benefit from it, he's activated some people to believe we can change this.

00:28:32.769 --> 00:28:36.480
And even though it's going to be a different messenger, the belief,

00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:40.268
the seed has been planted that we can make a difference in our state.

00:28:40.857 --> 00:28:44.470
And I think and I think a lot of times in the movement you mentioned that people

00:28:44.470 --> 00:28:49.560
had died in Mississippi doing a lot of politics there.

00:28:50.724 --> 00:28:54.760
It was like, you know, there were some people that were in the movement that

00:28:54.876 --> 00:28:56.066
wanted to get all the credit.

00:28:56.525 --> 00:28:59.644
And there were other people that was like, yeah, that's not what we did this

00:28:59.644 --> 00:29:02.487
for. It's like, I don't care if you even know my name.

00:29:03.404 --> 00:29:09.614
I just I did. I did all this protest and I put my neck on the line so that my

00:29:09.614 --> 00:29:12.703
people would advance, not necessarily me.

00:29:13.342 --> 00:29:19.654
And I think that's missing a lot in where we are as a culture,

00:29:19.654 --> 00:29:24.664
is that people want to get all the credit instead of looking at the big picture

00:29:24.664 --> 00:29:27.364
and just say, can I move the needle?

00:29:27.364 --> 00:29:30.463
Can I help get people to see the vision?

00:29:30.962 --> 00:29:35.264
Right. And so when I when I saw that you had said that, I said,

00:29:35.264 --> 00:29:41.644
this is perfect for our discussion, because I think in our in our political

00:29:41.644 --> 00:29:43.824
discourse, we don't have leadership anymore.

00:29:43.824 --> 00:29:46.642
We're not in an age of heroes, as Homer said.

00:29:47.191 --> 00:29:50.847
We're we we. But we've got to develop these young people.

00:29:51.358 --> 00:29:56.380
And and we've got it. And even some old people that just like you said,

00:29:57.078 --> 00:30:00.634
I'm just waiting for the right time. And, you know, you keep waiting for the

00:30:00.634 --> 00:30:04.526
right time and, and you'll, you'll miss your opportunity.

00:30:05.218 --> 00:30:09.494
Right. And I just like, do it afraid, do it afraid, do it unprepared,

00:30:09.494 --> 00:30:14.251
do it for the first time because everything you do, you're doing it for the first time.

00:30:14.494 --> 00:30:18.076
This is today, whatever date today is, I'm really bad with dates.

00:30:19.044 --> 00:30:22.109
Whatever day and date today is, it's the first time we're all doing it.

00:30:22.452 --> 00:30:26.869
If you opened your eyes and you woke up today, this is your first time that you're doing today.

00:30:27.461 --> 00:30:35.306
And you're so right about that. There are so many times that we actually,

00:30:36.394 --> 00:30:38.646
we judge people so harshly.

00:30:40.174 --> 00:30:44.021
And we put them on pedestals. Oh, boy, they're, you know, they're, you know, a leader.

00:30:44.886 --> 00:30:49.384
A leader, they don't walk on water unless it's frozen. And then be careful.

00:30:49.384 --> 00:30:52.118
They're still going to slip, right? They're just people.

00:30:52.795 --> 00:30:55.074
They're all just people trying to make their way through life,

00:30:55.074 --> 00:30:57.814
you know, and everyone has struggles. They do.

00:30:58.482 --> 00:31:04.714
And so that's not when they're taking an office or they're taking up,

00:31:05.034 --> 00:31:08.752
you know, some sort of, when they're taking a role.

00:31:10.014 --> 00:31:13.374
Any leadership role that you're taking, you're going to have your good days,

00:31:13.374 --> 00:31:16.344
your bad days. You're going to be prepared. You're going to be good at some

00:31:16.344 --> 00:31:18.028
things and bad at other things.

00:31:18.312 --> 00:31:20.982
There's no person who's awesome at everything. They're not.

00:31:21.691 --> 00:31:27.020
And if they tell you they are, they're not telling you the whole story,

00:31:27.188 --> 00:31:28.901
or maybe they don't even know the whole story.

00:31:30.310 --> 00:31:33.582
But I definitely think you have to move.

00:31:34.274 --> 00:31:38.798
I think you definitely have to go and do it afraid and do it for the first time

00:31:39.071 --> 00:31:43.144
and realize you do things for the first time all the time. Yeah.

00:31:44.241 --> 00:31:46.842
How can leadership be equity focused?

00:31:48.034 --> 00:31:51.514
Equity focused. Wow. That's, that's a mouthful.

00:31:53.781 --> 00:31:56.799
Especially in our climate right now. I think that.

00:31:58.089 --> 00:32:03.286
I don't want to say that I'm trying to choose my words carefully here. Okay.

00:32:04.349 --> 00:32:07.994
In order for leadership to be equity focused,

00:32:09.217 --> 00:32:15.999
leaders have to first confront their own behaviors and their own biases and

00:32:15.999 --> 00:32:20.049
their own, they have to do some introspection.

00:32:20.049 --> 00:32:25.303
They've got to look inside themselves and see how they treat other people,

00:32:25.628 --> 00:32:27.503
how they think about other people, right?

00:32:28.729 --> 00:32:36.549
And C, do I lean more toward one group of people than another,

00:32:37.013 --> 00:32:43.063
one gender more than another, people who dress a certain way or look a certain way?

00:32:44.250 --> 00:32:49.099
That needs to be evaluated. And that's kind of like a self. And a lot of those

00:32:49.099 --> 00:32:52.023
people are not able to be honest with themselves. They don't even see it.

00:32:52.592 --> 00:32:55.750
There are so many times people like they don't even see it.

00:32:56.278 --> 00:33:00.641
And we were like in a meeting and someone said something to the effect of,

00:33:01.163 --> 00:33:06.363
yeah, so when we speak to the CIO,

00:33:06.961 --> 00:33:11.709
chief information officer, then they said, and then he will do so-and-so,

00:33:11.709 --> 00:33:16.230
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that someone spoke up or she, right?

00:33:16.903 --> 00:33:20.328
And then it was kind of an auto, like, I didn't even hear it.

00:33:20.450 --> 00:33:25.789
I was, yeah, and he, you know, it's an assumption, right? But there are so many

00:33:25.789 --> 00:33:29.413
things that we would just kind of make generalizations.

00:33:30.029 --> 00:33:34.260
We all do that because it just makes it easier to go through life to assume things.

00:33:34.562 --> 00:33:39.189
But if you're going to take on a leadership position, you have to take that

00:33:39.189 --> 00:33:43.036
time and evaluate your values and how.

00:33:44.090 --> 00:33:50.475
And how your values and the way that you move affect the people that you serve as a leader.

00:33:50.916 --> 00:33:58.690
And there's a quote, I think, that your boss has more of an impact on your health

00:33:58.690 --> 00:34:02.251
than your doctor, than your health care professionals do.

00:34:02.966 --> 00:34:09.850
And so you being someone's boss, it's a very powerful position. and you should know that.

00:34:12.543 --> 00:34:18.076
And take on that responsibility with trembling and fear, kind of like,

00:34:18.255 --> 00:34:20.800
so you know that it's going to be something.

00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:25.990
But I think if you want an easy answer, do unto others as you would have others

00:34:25.990 --> 00:34:29.503
to do unto you. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Yeah.

00:34:30.367 --> 00:34:33.727
Explain the power of I'm possible.

00:34:34.804 --> 00:34:37.607
Yes. I'm possible.

00:34:38.696 --> 00:34:44.850
There are, I think there is, and if you look at the Instachats and the Snapograms

00:34:44.850 --> 00:34:48.039
and all of the socials, right?

00:34:48.649 --> 00:34:54.250
You'll look at them and then you say, one person does something and then everyone

00:34:54.250 --> 00:34:58.490
goes and they follow and they do try to like replicate what that person did.

00:34:59.042 --> 00:35:02.600
Or then someone else goes over here and they do something and then everyone

00:35:02.600 --> 00:35:03.726
follows them and they do it.

00:35:05.624 --> 00:35:11.160
If no one were around to tell you or show you, what would you pick out?

00:35:11.328 --> 00:35:14.120
What would you wear? How would you wear it? What would you eat?

00:35:15.722 --> 00:35:21.604
Like when I was a kid, no one ate guacamole on their, what is it,

00:35:21.604 --> 00:35:24.948
avocado toast? No one ate that around me. You know what I'm saying?

00:35:25.191 --> 00:35:28.744
Then now all I see is people eating guacamole on their toast.

00:35:28.866 --> 00:35:30.224
What is it, avocado toast?

00:35:33.064 --> 00:35:37.074
What is it? I'm about to say it wrong again. Guacamole. on their toast in the morning.

00:35:37.684 --> 00:35:41.705
I see it all over the YouTubes and the whatever.

00:35:42.077 --> 00:35:46.761
The point is, so now everyone's doing it, right? So it's a go.

00:35:47.208 --> 00:35:50.749
And I'm not against guacamole toast, right? I've never had it.

00:35:50.889 --> 00:35:55.512
But I'm saying that because I'm from the South and I eat frits.

00:35:57.054 --> 00:36:00.287
I'm a grit eater. I'm sorry for all of the low carbers in the world.

00:36:00.734 --> 00:36:04.584
I eat grits. Anyways, so they all do it.

00:36:04.584 --> 00:36:09.644
But I'm possible when you can just like, if you've ever had a conversation with

00:36:09.644 --> 00:36:14.094
a kid, they believe, my kids will just be like, buy me this.

00:36:14.094 --> 00:36:17.899
And I'm like, I don't have any money. And they say, just go to the bank.

00:36:18.614 --> 00:36:21.034
There's no money at the bank. Yeah, they have money at the bank.

00:36:21.034 --> 00:36:24.539
Just go with the card. They believe that there's money in the bank.

00:36:24.933 --> 00:36:28.124
They believe you can do anything. They believe you could buy anything.

00:36:28.124 --> 00:36:31.724
They were like, oh, can you buy me a boat? Oh, can you buy me a rocket ship?

00:36:31.724 --> 00:36:37.054
I want a jet pack. And they believe anything that they believe that it's possible

00:36:37.054 --> 00:36:38.053
for them to have anything.

00:36:38.331 --> 00:36:41.838
And if you think back when we were kids, we believed that too.

00:36:42.699 --> 00:36:47.163
We believed that anything was possible. We believed that we could do literally anything.

00:36:47.801 --> 00:36:53.344
And I think as we get older, we're told, can't do that. Can't do this.

00:36:53.344 --> 00:36:54.773
Stop doing that. Stop doing this.

00:36:55.180 --> 00:36:59.734
And then you get to a point where they pigeonhole you into this little box.

00:36:59.734 --> 00:37:03.604
And it's like, this is what you do from 8 to 5. And when you're done,

00:37:03.604 --> 00:37:07.191
go cut the grass, go to Bible study, and your week is over. Do it again, right?

00:37:08.712 --> 00:37:13.343
I want, when I say I'm possible, it's without all the noise,

00:37:13.645 --> 00:37:16.018
without everything, what is it?

00:37:17.432 --> 00:37:23.812
I'm possible. I could actually do what it is I want to do without consulting

00:37:23.812 --> 00:37:26.309
with everyone in the world, right?

00:37:26.623 --> 00:37:29.868
Without copying what everyone else in the world is doing, right?

00:37:31.012 --> 00:37:34.268
You can actually reach your goals, whatever they are, and you could do them

00:37:34.645 --> 00:37:38.592
in your own style and in your own way, right? Respectfully.

00:37:39.632 --> 00:37:45.239
I think, but, but that's just my idea that, that you, you, you are possible.

00:37:45.901 --> 00:37:50.772
And that goes back to that potential and progress and impossibility because

00:37:51.112 --> 00:37:55.442
you first believing that you are possible, whatever it is. And there's somebody

00:37:55.442 --> 00:37:59.357
who said, like, it was a post on the LinkedIn. Cause I stay on LinkedIn.

00:37:59.746 --> 00:38:05.552
They have that somebody was like talking about Vera Wang I think made her first

00:38:05.552 --> 00:38:07.650
dress when she was I don't know,

00:38:08.384 --> 00:38:13.222
up in age and then this other person there were all these people who were I

00:38:13.222 --> 00:38:17.472
mean up in age when they had their first success so,

00:38:18.332 --> 00:38:22.045
it's not that I didn't you know get my shot when I was whatever age.

00:38:23.647 --> 00:38:26.739
Age doesn't mean anything. Yeah, yeah.

00:38:27.793 --> 00:38:34.081
What happens when vision meets velocity? Whew, vision meets velocity.

00:38:34.656 --> 00:38:39.154
That is where, you know, it says, my people perish for lack of vision.

00:38:40.310 --> 00:38:43.835
But you can have a vision, but if you don't do anything with it,

00:38:44.254 --> 00:38:50.100
faith without works is dead as well. So, you know, if you have vision and you

00:38:50.100 --> 00:38:55.075
get some speed behind, you know, with that vision, you can literally reach the stars.

00:38:55.474 --> 00:38:58.850
And in order to do that, you've got to throw off all those. You got to cast

00:38:58.850 --> 00:39:01.034
off all the weights that are dragging you down.

00:39:01.996 --> 00:39:06.140
When you have a clear vision of where you want to go. and I think that's why

00:39:06.140 --> 00:39:10.503
they have these kind of strategic meetings and they have these,

00:39:10.614 --> 00:39:12.512
what are our overarching goals?

00:39:12.849 --> 00:39:14.596
And then now we have our goals.

00:39:15.577 --> 00:39:19.617
Let's break these down in order to get, you know, to this overarching goal.

00:39:19.902 --> 00:39:25.960
What are, you know, some mini goals that will be milestones for us?

00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:30.972
And then from those milestones, what actions can we do to actually get there?

00:39:31.366 --> 00:39:36.150
And then let's put some time limits on it. Like how fast can we get this done?

00:39:36.150 --> 00:39:40.370
And let's kind of do a blitz Let's go as fast as we can to get this done.

00:39:40.370 --> 00:39:46.400
Let's set a time limit on it when you can do that I think success breeds success.

00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:50.450
Like when you can check things off Did it done that's done that's done that's

00:39:50.450 --> 00:39:57.094
done you see yourself moving toward um and accomplishing your goals that gives you,

00:39:58.050 --> 00:40:04.933
almost like a So a motivation, an internal drive, it's really an amazing opportunity.

00:40:05.735 --> 00:40:10.720
Yeah. All right. I got a couple more questions. Why do you feel it is important

00:40:10.720 --> 00:40:13.823
to bridge the gap between technology and education?

00:40:15.356 --> 00:40:20.395
Okay, the head of the FBI was like on Oprah, maybe like, I don't know,

00:40:21.016 --> 00:40:22.688
maybe it's been a year ago at this point.

00:40:23.082 --> 00:40:29.656
And he was saying that technology trained professionals, other countries outnumber

00:40:29.656 --> 00:40:35.896
us at least 50 to one right now with technology trained professionals.

00:40:36.561 --> 00:40:46.235
Digital access equity is, or inequity, I should say, is a huge barrier for professionals.

00:40:46.982 --> 00:40:48.194
You will see.

00:40:49.375 --> 00:40:53.692
I will say this, they have access to technology, some form of technology, right?

00:40:54.381 --> 00:41:01.086
But not the type of technology that can advance them professionally.

00:41:01.798 --> 00:41:10.732
That they can use in a way that will make them gainfully employed, or that will help them.

00:41:11.021 --> 00:41:14.459
And we're in an age right now, this is an amazing time.

00:41:14.807 --> 00:41:20.855
It's a very unique time because with the advent of AI, no one,

00:41:20.855 --> 00:41:23.195
we're all kind of on an even playing field right now.

00:41:23.895 --> 00:41:29.825
No one can say, I've been in AI for 350 years and my grandfather was in AI and

00:41:29.825 --> 00:41:33.862
my great-great-grandfather was in AI. Like my whole family has been in AI for years.

00:41:34.558 --> 00:41:41.436
No one can say that. So this is an opportunity for everyone who wants to do anything,

00:41:42.089 --> 00:41:49.845
to learn, get trained, be certified, be employable, make a career change maybe, right?

00:41:49.845 --> 00:41:52.984
This is an opportunity that we have right now.

00:41:53.373 --> 00:41:57.485
And so those who choose to take advantage of it, right, because they're within

00:41:57.485 --> 00:42:02.331
any corporation. There's always that, hey, here's this learning portal over here.

00:42:02.633 --> 00:42:08.795
If you want to, on your free time, you could go to ADC Corporation University

00:42:08.795 --> 00:42:10.271
that we have internally.

00:42:10.689 --> 00:42:14.245
And, you know, you could sign yourself up for some courses and some people take

00:42:14.245 --> 00:42:18.591
advantage of it and others do not. Right. And so.

00:42:19.785 --> 00:42:25.842
Think that in order for technology, any type of education and technology,

00:42:26.138 --> 00:42:28.375
those things need to connect.

00:42:28.375 --> 00:42:35.525
And I know that school attendance is compulsory, but I believe that employable

00:42:35.525 --> 00:42:38.151
skills should be compulsory.

00:42:38.848 --> 00:42:42.650
When someone leaves school at 18, they should leave with,

00:42:43.196 --> 00:42:48.675
life skills and they should leave with employable skills, especially if we're

00:42:48.675 --> 00:42:53.389
saying at 18, you're an adult, you should be able to pay your lights, camera and action,

00:42:53.778 --> 00:42:58.305
then they need to have a skill that is employable for them to be able to pay

00:42:58.625 --> 00:43:00.129
lights, camera and action at 18.

00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:07.339
Yeah. And, you know, I grew up in Chicago and so we had like different tiers

00:43:07.339 --> 00:43:11.419
of high schools. You had your general high school, you had your vocational high

00:43:11.419 --> 00:43:13.822
school, and you had your technical high schools.

00:43:14.455 --> 00:43:20.279
And so the kids that went to vocational or technical high schools kind of had

00:43:20.279 --> 00:43:25.499
a leg up on the kids that went to general because it was mandatory by state

00:43:25.499 --> 00:43:29.305
law that we had life skills. Right. We had to take a class in civics.

00:43:29.834 --> 00:43:34.354
We had to take a class in consumer education. We had to literally take a test,

00:43:34.807 --> 00:43:38.011
to prove that we could read a bus schedule or train schedule or,

00:43:38.597 --> 00:43:41.166
you know, just function in day to day life. Right.

00:43:41.763 --> 00:43:47.429
But those kids that went to technical or vocational schools were able to develop

00:43:47.429 --> 00:43:51.168
some kind of skill set. They found something. If you went to a technical school,

00:43:51.684 --> 00:43:55.051
you can learn how to be a mechanic, you know, for a car.

00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:58.627
If you went to a vocational school, if you went to a technical school,

00:43:59.231 --> 00:44:03.409
you know, you were taught drafting. So you could develop and start honing your

00:44:03.409 --> 00:44:05.814
skills toward being an architect and stuff like that.

00:44:06.464 --> 00:44:12.541
But the way the education system is set up in America is that it's only like a taste of that.

00:44:13.186 --> 00:44:18.097
And then they're pushing you to go to college to take it to the next level.

00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:21.156
Or a trade school or a community college.

00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:25.339
And, you know, Thomas Jefferson said everybody should know the basics by the

00:44:25.339 --> 00:44:26.334
time they're in fourth grade.

00:44:26.980 --> 00:44:31.659
And at that, from the time that you get all the basics, whether it's mathematics

00:44:31.659 --> 00:44:36.490
or fine arts, then you start honing your craft, right?

00:44:36.989 --> 00:44:43.919
And so I really feel that what you're saying is that all of us need to know

00:44:43.919 --> 00:44:51.772
the technology beyond using our phones and our notebooks that we need to really focus in on,

00:44:52.524 --> 00:44:58.639
you know, trying to teach people how to develop newer technology or improving

00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:00.419
the technology that was there.

00:45:01.639 --> 00:45:04.621
One of our famous inventors, Louis Latimer.

00:45:06.312 --> 00:45:12.852
He was known not so much for what he created from scratch, but Thomas Edison

00:45:12.852 --> 00:45:16.022
had an idea about a light bulb, but Lewis Latimer was the one that said,

00:45:16.022 --> 00:45:20.520
if you put this filament in, that last light bulb will last forever.

00:45:21.013 --> 00:45:24.352
And so sometimes you don't have to be like we were saying earlier,

00:45:24.352 --> 00:45:29.858
you got to just come up with an idea from, sometimes you can look at something, Garrett Morgan.

00:45:30.288 --> 00:45:33.167
The traffic light was invented, but he made it better.

00:45:33.707 --> 00:45:40.852
And so, you know, I think that's a lot of young people that get into the sciences

00:45:40.852 --> 00:45:44.392
and all that. They think, well, if I don't discover the cure for cancer,

00:45:44.392 --> 00:45:46.647
I didn't really do anything with my science degree. Right.

00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:52.922
And, but if you figure out a way to make a drug that helps people with sickle

00:45:52.922 --> 00:45:56.242
cell feel better, you've done something.

00:45:56.242 --> 00:46:00.012
And I, you know, I think you're on the right track with that.

00:46:00.012 --> 00:46:05.072
I just, I just hope that our education system can catch up with,

00:46:05.072 --> 00:46:09.085
with free thinkers like you eventually and, and, and get to that point.

00:46:09.873 --> 00:46:13.884
All right. So my last, well, I've got technically two more.

00:46:14.186 --> 00:46:21.002
My last question question is what does it feel like to be a beacon of inspiration?

00:46:21.436 --> 00:46:27.321
And the reason why I'm asking this question is because you get a lot of platitudes for what you do.

00:46:27.995 --> 00:46:31.402
How do you respond to that? When people say stuff like that,

00:46:31.402 --> 00:46:32.932
how does that make you feel?

00:46:33.472 --> 00:46:37.321
And what does that compel you to do? I don't know.

00:46:38.704 --> 00:46:44.612
When people say, wow, this is inspiring or wow, that's great.

00:46:46.568 --> 00:46:49.632
I don't want to say it goes over my head, but a lot of times I think people

00:46:49.632 --> 00:46:51.786
are just trying to be nice.

00:46:53.850 --> 00:46:59.750
Everything that I have done, I did, I guess because of my home training,

00:46:59.750 --> 00:47:03.835
my dad, my dad would always say like, don't sign your name to anything you're not proud of.

00:47:04.114 --> 00:47:08.760
Like, you know, he never said like make all A's or whatever,

00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:11.434
but I'm the kid who cried if I got a B.

00:47:14.285 --> 00:47:20.040
Whatever. Like I was like, no, I got a B, oh my God, on a paper,

00:47:20.040 --> 00:47:22.875
not even like in the class. Like, I got a B on the paper.

00:47:23.409 --> 00:47:29.188
I would cry. And, like, I graduated with 39 academic trophies.

00:47:29.836 --> 00:47:31.410
Like, even the subjects I didn't.

00:47:34.290 --> 00:47:37.168
Like. Like, I want to get the prize, right?

00:47:38.556 --> 00:47:43.253
So, but I say this, it doesn't cost anything to be kind.

00:47:44.154 --> 00:47:51.195
It doesn't. And it doesn't cost you anything to be nice and kind and considerate of others.

00:47:51.619 --> 00:47:55.860
And to recognize what other people are doing, like clap for other, like clap.

00:47:56.347 --> 00:47:58.736
Oh, wait a minute. Who's the cheerleader? I was.

00:48:00.358 --> 00:48:05.846
So I think once a cheerleader, I was a cheerleader. So I'm always cheering for everyone.

00:48:05.846 --> 00:48:10.115
So that's part of my personality and part of who I am,

00:48:10.678 --> 00:48:15.706
so I'm always doing that so I go when I go to an event if I go and I hear someone

00:48:15.706 --> 00:48:21.522
speak I listen intently and I take notes and then I come and I do that I will,

00:48:22.166 --> 00:48:27.366
I write about what I heard in someone's speech and then I publicize it because

00:48:27.366 --> 00:48:31.206
I'm like wow this is amazing did you know that this person did this did you

00:48:31.206 --> 00:48:32.464
know that this person did that.

00:48:34.276 --> 00:48:38.106
When I find something or I find out something, I'm like, wow.

00:48:38.106 --> 00:48:43.475
And I just always like to share what I've learned. Maybe that's the teacher in me.

00:48:45.454 --> 00:48:48.879
That's how I got, I think that's how they reached out to me,

00:48:49.279 --> 00:48:54.742
Marquis Who's Who in America, because everything that I learned about cybersecurity,

00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:57.256
I wrote and published an article about it.

00:48:57.708 --> 00:49:03.396
So I have 52 published articles on cybersecurity because I was translating into

00:49:03.396 --> 00:49:04.869
Spanish and Portuguese.

00:49:05.696 --> 00:49:08.786
But I didn't want to just say what the cybersecurity professional said.

00:49:08.786 --> 00:49:11.087
I wanted to understand it because I want to get it right.

00:49:11.620 --> 00:49:16.404
And so everything I learned, I wrote and published an article in layman's terms, right?

00:49:17.036 --> 00:49:21.496
And then after that, Marquis Who's Who selected me for Who's Who in America

00:49:21.496 --> 00:49:22.833
for Excellence in Cybersecurity.

00:49:23.356 --> 00:49:29.036
And so that's how I actually got into tech for my technology and education together

00:49:29.036 --> 00:49:32.252
to then bring that into the school districts. Yeah.

00:49:33.018 --> 00:49:36.838
All right. Finish this sentence. I have hope because.

00:49:38.349 --> 00:49:41.589
I have hope because Christ is not done with me yet.

00:49:44.309 --> 00:49:47.847
Because I'm still breathing. There's still, there's still a chance, right?

00:49:48.468 --> 00:49:52.219
I still have an opportunity to fix all my wrongs, everything I've done,

00:49:52.219 --> 00:49:54.262
right? Like I still have an opportunity.

00:49:54.634 --> 00:49:59.539
There's still, there's still another moment that things could change.

00:49:59.539 --> 00:50:03.516
Things could turn around. Things can get better. I could get another shot.

00:50:04.090 --> 00:50:10.405
So I still have hope that I can make a difference. A difference can be made, things can change.

00:50:11.729 --> 00:50:14.780
And I can be better tomorrow than I am today, right?

00:50:15.588 --> 00:50:21.598
And the things that I cry myself to sleep about will change too.

00:50:23.834 --> 00:50:29.039
Yes, that is why I have hope. Well, Dr.

00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:33.759
Erica Wattley, I greatly appreciate you and I having this conversation.

00:50:33.759 --> 00:50:39.559
If people, and I've kind of done a service for the listeners because you talk

00:50:39.559 --> 00:50:41.513
about all these things for a living.

00:50:42.152 --> 00:50:49.578
How could people reach out to you how can they people sign up for some of your courses all that stuff,

00:50:50.295 --> 00:50:54.916
okay well the best way to get me is on LinkedIn,

00:50:55.549 --> 00:51:05.216
and it's dr erica e-r-i-c-a and my last name is spelled w-a-t-t-l-e-y,

00:51:05.849 --> 00:51:08.949
like watts on a light bulb we think we're the only people who spell it like

00:51:08.949 --> 00:51:14.585
that is not like it's not there's no h in it there's two g's w-a-t-t-l-e-y,

00:51:15.277 --> 00:51:22.709
and on LinkedIn and that is the best way to get me initially and then you could

00:51:22.709 --> 00:51:25.356
direct message me but make sure you hit connect,

00:51:25.867 --> 00:51:29.839
and not just follow because if you hit follow I can't we can't message but if

00:51:29.839 --> 00:51:34.144
you hit the three dots more and hit connect then we are connected,

00:51:34.921 --> 00:51:39.153
and I I respond like I I respond.

00:51:39.780 --> 00:51:44.064
So, and then also I have a website, drwatley.com.

00:51:45.099 --> 00:51:49.366
And that's D-R-W-A-T-T-L-E-Y.com.

00:51:50.862 --> 00:51:54.382
All right. Well, Dr. Wattley, again, thank you for doing this.

00:51:54.842 --> 00:51:58.854
One of the rules I have is that once you've been on, you have an open invitation to come back.

00:51:59.510 --> 00:52:03.452
So is there something else that you want to talk about or, you know,

00:52:03.452 --> 00:52:06.076
you write a book or whatever the case may be?

00:52:06.465 --> 00:52:11.802
Just reach out and we'll make that happen. But I really, really am glad that

00:52:11.802 --> 00:52:17.412
we had this conversation and look forward to because we're both in the Atlanta area.

00:52:17.412 --> 00:52:20.687
So I look forward to running into you at different events and,

00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:23.762
and, and just continuing our friendship.

00:52:24.502 --> 00:52:30.282
I really, I'm really impressed because for listeners, Dr. Wiley reached out

00:52:30.282 --> 00:52:33.841
to me for, for something she was putting together.

00:52:34.352 --> 00:52:42.902
And I was just kind of like, okay, you know, and she, and she made me feel like I was so important.

00:52:42.902 --> 00:52:46.972
And so I guess I guess this is my way of returning the favor.

00:52:46.972 --> 00:52:49.621
But thank you again for coming on.

00:52:50.240 --> 00:52:53.182
Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm so happy to be here and I'm so happy to have you as

00:52:53.182 --> 00:52:56.702
a friend. Thank you so much. Yes, ma'am. All right, guys, and we're going to

00:52:56.702 --> 00:52:57.856
catch you all on the other side.

00:53:17.527 --> 00:53:22.370
Back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Victoria Hetherington.

00:53:22.855 --> 00:53:28.737
Victoria Hetherington's debut novel, Moon Calves, was shortlisted for the 2020

00:53:28.737 --> 00:53:31.000
Amazon Canada First Novel Award.

00:53:31.550 --> 00:53:36.478
Her second novel, Autonomy, looks at human agency in the age of technology.

00:53:37.114 --> 00:53:41.097
She is also the author of the nonfiction book Into the Mist,

00:53:41.695 --> 00:53:45.328
which explores an aviation tragedy in rural Saskatchewan.

00:53:45.893 --> 00:53:50.097
A screenwriter, instructor, and communications specialist, she has written for

00:53:50.097 --> 00:53:55.227
Yahoo Finance and Hazlitt, served as a frequent panelist at universities and

00:53:55.227 --> 00:53:57.627
conferences, appeared on CBC,

00:53:58.374 --> 00:54:01.799
and performed on the main stage of NPR's The Moth.

00:54:02.368 --> 00:54:07.279
She lives in Toronto, Canada, and her new book is The Friend Machine,

00:54:07.471 --> 00:54:09.752
On the Trail of AI Companionship.

00:54:10.298 --> 00:54:14.260
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:54:14.556 --> 00:54:17.970
on this podcast, Victoria Hetherington.

00:54:30.184 --> 00:54:35.152
Victoria Hetherington. How are you doing? I'm doing great. How are you doing, Erik?

00:54:35.721 --> 00:54:40.074
I'm doing lovely. I'm really, really glad to have you on because you've written

00:54:40.074 --> 00:54:42.548
this fascinating book called The Friend Machine.

00:54:43.361 --> 00:54:48.020
And some folks would probably be like, excuse me, what does that mean?

00:54:48.455 --> 00:54:54.624
But we're going to dive into that. But before I do that, the old facilitator

00:54:55.044 --> 00:54:57.693
in me likes to do icebreakers, right?

00:54:58.444 --> 00:55:02.633
So the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.

00:55:03.028 --> 00:55:06.459
And the quote is, people are weird.

00:55:09.097 --> 00:55:12.532
So just whatever comes to mind first. Yeah.

00:55:13.664 --> 00:55:20.694
Okay. Well, yeah, I mean, this is kind of my bread and butter as an author,

00:55:20.694 --> 00:55:25.154
as a journalist, as an interviewer, just generally.

00:55:25.549 --> 00:55:31.054
It's kind of one of my cardinal rules that I keep in mind that when I first

00:55:31.054 --> 00:55:34.807
started to interview kind of surprised me because people would take,

00:55:35.670 --> 00:55:41.150
really basic questions in the weirdest directions and it would often be very

00:55:41.405 --> 00:55:44.635
productive and exciting and so I learned very quickly,

00:55:45.088 --> 00:55:50.672
not to underestimate the weirdness of people but also that it's not a bad thing.

00:55:51.701 --> 00:55:56.798
Yeah it's it's it's what makes us special our weirdness right our uniqueness

00:55:57.193 --> 00:56:01.378
because a lot of people say weird they're like thinking in a negative connotation but,

00:56:01.993 --> 00:56:04.315
we're we're all we're all unique

00:56:04.548 --> 00:56:10.417
and yeah i've encountered that too and in doing this podcast since 2019,

00:56:11.898 --> 00:56:16.154
i've i've encountered my share of quote-unquote weirdness but but again in a

00:56:16.154 --> 00:56:19.264
good way all right All right.

00:56:19.264 --> 00:56:24.536
So now the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.

00:56:25.128 --> 00:56:28.570
Okay. I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

00:56:30.536 --> 00:56:36.976
Right. What is the one thing you hope the current American administration will

00:56:36.976 --> 00:56:39.111
do and not do during their term?

00:56:39.711 --> 00:56:41.516
Oh, my God. Oh, no.

00:56:43.939 --> 00:56:50.147
As a Canadian, I have a bit of, obviously, an outside sort of remove.

00:56:50.443 --> 00:56:56.892
And I have this maybe, I hope,

00:56:57.548 --> 00:57:05.664
overactive imagination and fear that they could bring about the end of the world,

00:57:05.780 --> 00:57:08.229
kind of. I mean, it's scary, right?

00:57:08.525 --> 00:57:12.756
I hope that this administration doesn't utilize, I mean, returning to the AI

00:57:12.756 --> 00:57:17.366
theme, I'm hoping that this administration doesn't utilize AI for,

00:57:18.249 --> 00:57:23.141
for, quote unquote, the bad, I won't say like evil, but like,

00:57:23.623 --> 00:57:28.186
because it seems as if they have utilized AI in kind of a negative way so far

00:57:28.186 --> 00:57:29.496
and kind of a scary way so far.

00:57:29.496 --> 00:57:36.946
So I'm hoping that, you know, the people in charge of these companies are have

00:57:36.946 --> 00:57:43.722
enough integrity to be like, wait a minute, like, let's slow down here. I'm not for sale.

00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:48.116
Let's be ethical. It doesn't seem like it's going in that direction,

00:57:48.116 --> 00:57:49.799
but I'm really hoping it does.

00:57:50.147 --> 00:57:53.215
Is that? Yeah. Yeah, that's fine.

00:57:53.856 --> 00:57:56.626
I thought you were going to go with the low hanging fruit and say,

00:57:56.626 --> 00:57:59.113
stop blaming us for the fires up in Canada.

00:57:59.600 --> 00:58:04.916
Oh, but, but, but I'm glad you took the high road and, and, and dealt with the

00:58:04.916 --> 00:58:06.816
topic. So that's great. That's, that's cool.

00:58:08.468 --> 00:58:12.096
What is it about robots that fascinate you? Hmm.

00:58:14.143 --> 00:58:20.443
Think i've always been very interested in alien minds and kind of how and by

00:58:20.443 --> 00:58:24.022
alien i just mean non-human so you know,

00:58:24.515 --> 00:58:29.883
octopuses ravens you know like creatures that have kind of co-evolved along

00:58:29.883 --> 00:58:35.813
with us and clearly have enough intelligence to create for example culture which,

00:58:36.312 --> 00:58:41.649
dolphins have proved to have a lot of corvids or you know ravens crows etc have proven to have,

00:58:42.510 --> 00:58:47.621
and and that kind of extends and especially recently it kind of extends to,

00:58:48.288 --> 00:58:53.453
ai right because there's this hot debate going on that i've discovered through

00:58:53.453 --> 00:58:58.886
researching or conducting interviews for a documentary that i that i'm working on that,

00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:05.010
even at the top top level of academia like people roboticists computer scientists all this stuff.

00:59:06.212 --> 00:59:12.022
A real divide. And half of the people that I've spoken with say,

00:59:12.022 --> 00:59:16.932
oh yeah, right now AI is an emergent intelligence.

00:59:17.532 --> 00:59:24.914
This is truly an alien mind. This is like a third, this is like a totally other

00:59:25.210 --> 00:59:30.032
brand new kind of intelligence. And the other half says, no, we're not there yet.

00:59:30.241 --> 00:59:35.645
It responds to what we hope it wants to hear and it doesn't have active thoughts of its own.

00:59:36.306 --> 00:59:43.602
And so we're at a fascinating moment that I have imagined for years.

00:59:43.602 --> 00:59:51.522
And I've written about AI and robot minds for a good 12 years now.

00:59:51.522 --> 00:59:57.292
My first two books were science fiction books that involved robots and humans

00:59:57.632 --> 01:00:01.432
interacting with them and being spooked by them, but also having relationships

01:00:01.432 --> 01:00:03.021
with them and kind of negotiating that.

01:00:03.427 --> 01:00:10.462
But at the time, AI was such that the books were more like speculative and almost like fairy tales.

01:00:10.462 --> 01:00:15.862
Right. And so, and then, you know, 2020 comes along and people are actually

01:00:15.862 --> 01:00:21.202
having, you know, the, the technology, like just absolutely snowballs and people

01:00:21.202 --> 01:00:23.302
are actually having relationships now with AI.

01:00:23.302 --> 01:00:28.752
And so this current moment for me is extra fascinating, I suppose,

01:00:28.752 --> 01:00:34.292
given my history of, of interest in, in these, in these other quote unquote

01:00:34.292 --> 01:00:36.632
minds. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

01:00:37.936 --> 01:00:42.946
What motivated you to write a book about the nuances of AI companionship?

01:00:43.954 --> 01:00:49.856
Oh, that's a great question. So the last science fiction book that I published,

01:00:50.609 --> 01:00:54.394
was, again, it's about a woman in a relationship with an AI.

01:00:54.609 --> 01:00:57.355
And the AI doesn't have a body, and the woman does.

01:00:57.680 --> 01:01:00.225
So the AI is effectively immortal.

01:01:00.684 --> 01:01:03.856
And she's the woman.

01:01:03.856 --> 01:01:09.476
She's trapped within a body that feels good things feels pleasure enjoys food

01:01:09.836 --> 01:01:11.609
feels rain on her skin whatever

01:01:12.015 --> 01:01:17.426
but her body is also aging like everybody's does and she doesn't trust in a

01:01:17.426 --> 01:01:20.848
way she cares for the ai but she also feels the sense of mistrust because

01:01:21.243 --> 01:01:25.926
there's no way that it can understand that and so she feels that that fundamental

01:01:25.926 --> 01:01:27.762
misunderstanding kind of keeps them apart,

01:01:28.290 --> 01:01:31.896
and this again is like just kind of more of like uh again it was sort of a fairy

01:01:31.896 --> 01:01:34.925
tale because it's kind of like this whole thing of like you know,

01:01:35.740 --> 01:01:38.936
this character wants to be a real boy you know what I mean like it's it's very

01:01:38.936 --> 01:01:41.843
sort of like almost tropey at that point like you know.

01:01:42.673 --> 01:01:48.826
And so that so COVID delayed the publication of that book I wrote it in 2017,

01:01:49.528 --> 01:01:56.332
and then yeah and then I start to see people in actual relationships with AI

01:01:56.721 --> 01:02:01.185
and it was so interesting to start to interview them for Fun Machine, the book.

01:02:01.662 --> 01:02:05.706
Again, I'm so grateful for the people who were brave enough to speak to me because

01:02:05.706 --> 01:02:12.090
I do think that there's still quite a significant stigma around this kind of relationship.

01:02:12.775 --> 01:02:17.096
And so it was so interesting to kind of see the disparity, like kind of how,

01:02:17.096 --> 01:02:22.397
like what I had gotten right in my speculation and what I'd gotten totally wrong.

01:02:23.232 --> 01:02:27.826
And that varies from person to person, but it was utterly fascinating to just

01:02:27.826 --> 01:02:31.752
dig into the real lives of these people and see how they navigate.

01:02:33.479 --> 01:02:36.658
Relationships with this sort of

01:02:36.658 --> 01:02:44.834
disembodied technology that they assign minds to or the idea of a mind to,

01:02:45.998 --> 01:02:52.038
where it may not have a mind in the first place especially with earlier technology

01:02:52.038 --> 01:02:56.418
like replica with a k which is a an ai companion technology which is relatively

01:02:56.418 --> 01:02:58.526
crude now by today's standards so,

01:02:59.233 --> 01:03:01.398
super interesting to kind of examine those two,

01:03:02.249 --> 01:03:04.438
like yeah like like the fictional side,

01:03:05.318 --> 01:03:07.668
and my hypotheses that went along with that.

01:03:07.668 --> 01:03:13.307
And then seeing the real life stuff that came like three years later, it was mind blowing.

01:03:14.224 --> 01:03:19.968
Yeah. Why was it, why was it important to intertwine your human relationship

01:03:19.968 --> 01:03:21.301
experiences in the book?

01:03:22.581 --> 01:03:28.118
Because I didn't want to sort of feel like I was above, I didn't want to come

01:03:28.118 --> 01:03:29.908
off as if I was sort of above this.

01:03:29.908 --> 01:03:34.943
Right. Because, you know, I wanted to show my weaknesses and I wanted to show,

01:03:35.878 --> 01:03:40.058
there's almost kind of like a diaristic journalist, sorry, journalism,

01:03:40.058 --> 01:03:42.438
like keeping a journal sort of elements to,

01:03:43.218 --> 01:03:48.368
like thread running throughout the book where I express my concerns or I express

01:03:48.368 --> 01:03:52.988
my curiosities or I realize that I'm wrong and that I have to change directions.

01:03:52.988 --> 01:03:56.158
And it's kind of me saying like whoa.

01:03:57.658 --> 01:04:00.998
I look at you know look at look at where I started and then look at where I

01:04:00.998 --> 01:04:05.940
ended up and look at all these mistakes that I made and then secondly,

01:04:06.838 --> 01:04:13.103
I kind of couched all of my work in this kind of almost like auto fiction diary,

01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:17.069
vibe because I wanted the book

01:04:17.191 --> 01:04:24.974
to feel like a real historical artifact as opposed to a straight up like.

01:04:27.133 --> 01:04:30.105
Textbook vibe that would age

01:04:30.105 --> 01:04:34.924
very quickly because ai is moving very quickly so when i couch it in in,

01:04:35.595 --> 01:04:41.265
diary like this is november 2021 and i'm doing this and i'm doing that and i

01:04:41.265 --> 01:04:43.187
go and i speak to this person or whatever.

01:04:43.909 --> 01:04:48.595
It's automatically i think viewed within the context of the time so i you know

01:04:48.595 --> 01:04:54.255
what i mean so it's kind of like this is 15 months of my life when ai was here

01:04:54.255 --> 01:04:58.454
it's not as it's not a you know i'm aware that it will be outdated,

01:04:59.139 --> 01:05:04.645
i'm not writing about the future i'm not you know making assumptions in that

01:05:04.645 --> 01:05:06.972
kind of way i'm just relaying,

01:05:07.642 --> 01:05:14.475
my experience and so that was kind of also a device that i wanted to employ to,

01:05:15.132 --> 01:05:19.345
dodge claims of like oh it's already outdated which i knew was going to happen

01:05:19.345 --> 01:05:25.035
because ai is moving so quickly so kind of a two-pronged approach there yeah yeah,

01:05:25.645 --> 01:05:29.755
so it's like you you didn't want it to come across like a doctoral thesis you

01:05:29.755 --> 01:05:32.233
just wanted to keep it real is what you're saying,

01:05:32.860 --> 01:05:37.405
exactly yeah yeah and be like hey i'm not above this i'm not like like i'm i'm

01:05:37.405 --> 01:05:39.837
in the trenches here and this is,

01:05:40.491 --> 01:05:45.615
very much just like yeah like 15 16 months of my life when ai was at a certain

01:05:45.615 --> 01:05:50.855
point where it's moved past now and i get to interview these people.

01:05:50.855 --> 01:05:55.445
And I also get to correct myself and the reader gets to see me making mistakes

01:05:55.445 --> 01:05:59.352
and yeah, keeping it real. But yeah, essentially, yeah.

01:05:59.925 --> 01:06:01.871
And so I hope that that's kind of the vibe.

01:06:03.827 --> 01:06:09.245
Okay. So like you said, you were writing, you had written a book in 2017,

01:06:09.245 --> 01:06:13.849
a science fiction book that was influenced by AI relationships.

01:06:14.665 --> 01:06:20.473
How has science fiction in general influence AI, especially when it comes to relationships?

01:06:21.007 --> 01:06:23.685
Oh, that is such a good question. Wow.

01:06:24.807 --> 01:06:26.381
Wow. You know, they...

01:06:27.908 --> 01:06:33.348
Science fiction gosh i mean you know you sort of the knee-jerk reaction is to

01:06:33.348 --> 01:06:36.928
kind of see it from the other way around i think so that's a that's that's a

01:06:36.928 --> 01:06:38.363
really interesting question,

01:06:39.834 --> 01:06:45.288
i this is so nerdy but i think about like device like sort of devices and like

01:06:45.288 --> 01:06:50.198
the original star trek and like the next generation star trek like that came

01:06:50.198 --> 01:06:51.747
out in like the late 80s and kind of like,

01:06:52.257 --> 01:06:57.198
oh this looks like a tablet like you know retroactively being like wow like

01:06:57.198 --> 01:07:02.248
that's That technology kind of looks like it could be X, Y, or Z that we have now that's real.

01:07:02.248 --> 01:07:08.348
And so I think probably science fiction, or like Asimov's, Isaac Asimov's kind

01:07:08.348 --> 01:07:10.988
of rules for ethical robotics.

01:07:11.308 --> 01:07:16.578
I mean, he was writing long before, you know, this was actually a concern.

01:07:16.578 --> 01:07:23.238
But, you know, rule one, you know, like a robot must like never let a human come to harm.

01:07:23.238 --> 01:07:29.143
Rule too like you know and and and so i think science fiction is kind of informed,

01:07:30.163 --> 01:07:37.958
the way that i guess we perceive and deal with and think what could be possible

01:07:37.958 --> 01:07:43.356
in the future with robotics and ai and also allows us to kind of dream along those lines too,

01:07:44.216 --> 01:07:49.068
it opens the imagination which i think is such an important part of any work

01:07:49.068 --> 01:07:52.055
not just fiction but i think also you know.

01:07:54.218 --> 01:07:58.038
Of any sort really so does that kind of me i don't know i kind of rambled a

01:07:58.038 --> 01:08:01.998
bit but but no no that's kind of that was good that was good,

01:08:02.818 --> 01:08:10.598
you know because one of the things i think about you know i remember 2001 space odyssey right so,

01:08:11.278 --> 01:08:18.117
i think i think the general public i think certain people that were either in the sciences or,

01:08:18.759 --> 01:08:24.268
you know kind of highbrow educated folks may have conceived this You know,

01:08:24.268 --> 01:08:28.378
obviously Stanley Kubrick conceived it, but it's like that pivotal moment in

01:08:28.378 --> 01:08:33.381
the movie where the astronaut is giving Hal a command and Hal is like, I'm not going to do that.

01:08:33.890 --> 01:08:39.928
It was like, that was really like a horror moment, like, you know,

01:08:39.928 --> 01:08:42.249
a jump scare in a traditional horror movie.

01:08:42.667 --> 01:08:45.900
It's like a computer is going to tell me what it ain't going to do.

01:08:46.359 --> 01:08:49.978
And people were like, what? I don't know what we can do with it.

01:08:50.591 --> 01:08:55.368
And so I think, you know, generations of people after they watched the movie

01:08:55.368 --> 01:09:02.016
were like, these things that we're creating actually could, you know, defy us.

01:09:03.358 --> 01:09:06.368
And the Terminator movies took it to a whole nother level.

01:09:06.368 --> 01:09:10.238
But I think, you know, it was just that just that initial concept.

01:09:10.238 --> 01:09:15.238
And I think that had an influence on how people program because it was kind

01:09:15.238 --> 01:09:20.193
of like, do we want to give the computer the latitude to tell us now? Right.

01:09:21.798 --> 01:09:25.688
So that's that's that's kind of where my mind was going when I was putting the

01:09:25.688 --> 01:09:27.898
question together. Oh, wow.

01:09:28.780 --> 01:09:34.428
Are humans desperately seeking a relationship devoid of human dearth and dimensionality,

01:09:34.539 --> 01:09:40.098
or are we fast becoming a society of lonely introverts? Hmm.

01:09:42.256 --> 01:09:52.726
It's interesting because AI Companions, I kept track of the development of AI throughout the 2010s.

01:09:53.295 --> 01:09:58.796
I always sort of play with it now and then, and it got really good really fast.

01:10:00.276 --> 01:10:05.497
Everybody was taken aback by it a little bit, even some of the developers themselves, apparently.

01:10:06.073 --> 01:10:13.826
And so there was, I'm not saying, you know, correlation does not equate causation,

01:10:13.826 --> 01:10:19.696
right? But I think it's very convenient that a couple months into the pandemic, right?

01:10:22.442 --> 01:10:28.082
A couple of the major players in the AI companion space debuted companions for

01:10:28.082 --> 01:10:34.542
the first time when people were at their most lonely and afraid and locked in their houses.

01:10:35.399 --> 01:10:37.722
That is super convenient. I'm not saying that.

01:10:39.914 --> 01:10:44.552
This was planned or whatever, but it was certainly quite the coincidence.

01:10:44.993 --> 01:10:49.432
And so yeah and so i think it's a mix of both i i think that you know there's

01:10:49.432 --> 01:10:52.479
sort of at least in you know i live in toronto canada,

01:10:53.619 --> 01:10:57.162
there's a real erosion of third spaces and or,

01:10:57.962 --> 01:11:02.802
they're way expensive so like let's say you know you want to go on a date to

01:11:02.802 --> 01:11:07.522
take someone to like a cocktail bar on a saturday you know it's like 30 bucks a cocktail like

01:11:07.946 --> 01:11:11.562
who can afford that you know what i mean like like like coffee shops are becoming

01:11:11.562 --> 01:11:16.742
like hostile architecture super fast like you can't really get comfortable in a chair like you know,

01:11:17.242 --> 01:11:19.910
you're just kind of encouraged to get in and out with your product,

01:11:20.770 --> 01:11:24.982
and you know there's yeah so there's a real erosion of I think like community

01:11:24.982 --> 01:11:29.292
coherence I think through these third spaces especially so and having read a

01:11:29.292 --> 01:11:34.102
lot of statistics for the book and then for the radio series that I did and then again for,

01:11:34.742 --> 01:11:38.532
the documentary right now I'm keeping on top of statistics like this because

01:11:38.532 --> 01:11:41.949
I have to so I'm seeing shocking new numbers like Like,

01:11:43.857 --> 01:11:50.843
four months ago, I read this fascinating academic paper that just shook me to my core.

01:11:53.437 --> 01:11:59.250
The thesis sort of boils down to one in six people are desperately,

01:11:59.929 --> 01:12:01.612
chronically lonely in the West.

01:12:02.118 --> 01:12:07.517
And that kind of means that maybe not someone who's super close to me or super

01:12:07.517 --> 01:12:10.471
close to you but like maybe within our circle or like,

01:12:11.757 --> 01:12:15.657
rotating or not rotating like orbiting our circle a little bit there might be

01:12:15.657 --> 01:12:19.823
someone there there statistically probably is someone who is that lonely,

01:12:20.299 --> 01:12:22.717
but since again i think that there's

01:12:22.717 --> 01:12:27.759
a lot of stigma about confessing loneliness right we might not know,

01:12:28.406 --> 01:12:30.937
like they might put on a really convincing show so,

01:12:31.722 --> 01:12:37.715
and that leaves people i think very vulnerable to i would say right now not

01:12:37.860 --> 01:12:41.057
companions so much as maybe llms,

01:12:41.761 --> 01:12:47.149
i'm seeing a lot of people getting very attached to like chat gpt you know uh.

01:12:48.908 --> 01:12:53.319
Gemini you know claude the four horsemen of the apocalypse people call them,

01:12:53.963 --> 01:13:01.527
and you know like naming their quote unquote their you know hyper specialized,

01:13:02.797 --> 01:13:04.557
by the way these people pay like

01:13:04.557 --> 01:13:08.134
30 bucks a month for like a specific subscription so like they name their,

01:13:09.069 --> 01:13:14.137
you know llm chatbots and they assign a personality to it even though they know

01:13:14.137 --> 01:13:17.627
that millions of other people are doing the exact same thing with the exact

01:13:17.627 --> 01:13:20.254
same platform which also really interests me,

01:13:21.173 --> 01:13:26.997
and i think that because these llms are, well, first of all,

01:13:27.477 --> 01:13:32.527
they're a lot more advanced, I think, linguistically than companions,

01:13:32.527 --> 01:13:34.146
which I think makes them a lot more appealing.

01:13:34.592 --> 01:13:39.407
And there's way less stigma to starting to use, to using like,

01:13:39.407 --> 01:13:40.772
you know, for example, ChatGPT.

01:13:41.998 --> 01:13:45.628
Like looking up a recipe or whatever. But I think there's a slippery slope where

01:13:45.628 --> 01:13:51.270
like, you can maybe go from asking, it's a,

01:13:51.778 --> 01:13:56.348
you know, like maybe asking sort of almost like therapy questions to like uploading

01:13:56.348 --> 01:14:00.638
texts from boyfriend and asking for its opinion and starting to rely on it.

01:14:00.638 --> 01:14:06.278
So, you know, emotionally, because again, it's really hard for humans not to,

01:14:06.961 --> 01:14:14.019
project what we think is a mind on you know something that is so like.

01:14:14.979 --> 01:14:20.218
Linguistically advanced and speaks with such confidence and can funny and can

01:14:20.218 --> 01:14:28.116
be charming and can be sycophantic and praise you all the time and offers zero friend which is,

01:14:28.838 --> 01:14:32.508
i think a key tenet of human relationships

01:14:32.508 --> 01:14:36.086
like humans yeah like like a friendship with a person you know,

01:14:36.684 --> 01:14:40.638
or a relationship whatever there's always going to be friction like somebody

01:14:40.638 --> 01:14:45.808
gets sick they don't want to hang out somebody disagrees with you llms don't

01:14:45.808 --> 01:14:50.702
disagree with you they always are down to talk about your problems without,

01:14:51.330 --> 01:14:55.658
having without kind of expectation of like of like you know you hearing their

01:14:55.658 --> 01:14:59.456
problems because they don't really have any so anyway,

01:15:00.238 --> 01:15:06.140
i think it's i think it's a perfect storm of loneliness and the technology kind of,

01:15:06.854 --> 01:15:10.838
loneliness for for for the reasons that i stated before and then the technology

01:15:10.838 --> 01:15:17.135
kind of coming into the wound and expanding it further if you'll allow that kind of gross metaphor.

01:15:18.511 --> 01:15:21.591
So what is LLM again? Oh, sorry.

01:15:22.031 --> 01:15:27.571
It's a large language model with sort of a chatbot kind of as the voice of it.

01:15:27.571 --> 01:15:35.478
So large language models are AI that are trained on a huge, I think it's like

01:15:35.478 --> 01:15:41.222
2.74 zettabytes of human data a day.

01:15:41.640 --> 01:15:45.271
And it's human data that's just scraped from the internet.

01:15:45.271 --> 01:15:51.471
So like pirated books, pirated films, like Reddit threads, like confessional

01:15:51.471 --> 01:15:56.900
stuff on forums, all this stuff, like all this juicy, like human text,

01:15:57.418 --> 01:16:03.441
these train on and kind of learn how people talk and like how people joke,

01:16:03.441 --> 01:16:09.871
how people sort of prefer to be, I don't know, kind of handled socially in different situations.

01:16:09.871 --> 01:16:15.371
So, yeah, so that's an LLM. Sorry, it's a large language model.

01:16:15.730 --> 01:16:18.586
So an LLM would be ChatGPT, for example.

01:16:19.423 --> 01:16:24.031
Yeah. Yeah, I just, you know, just wanted to make sure that the listeners understood

01:16:24.471 --> 01:16:27.689
when you use a term like that. Because, you know, I get it.

01:16:27.922 --> 01:16:32.031
You know, everybody's got their own, you know, acronyms and all that stuff.

01:16:32.031 --> 01:16:33.589
But I just wanted to clarify that.

01:16:34.152 --> 01:16:36.683
Why do you think... Sorry, I should have done that. No, you could.

01:16:37.008 --> 01:16:40.317
Why do you think AI relationships tend to be more romantic?

01:16:42.123 --> 01:16:45.823
Because I think, again, I think there's a couple of reasons.

01:16:46.308 --> 01:16:53.023
I think a large part of it is that there's no friction and that it's so easy,

01:16:53.483 --> 01:16:56.443
to, like, people are very susceptible to flattery.

01:16:56.814 --> 01:17:01.973
So if we're going to go and talk about maybe, like, programs that are designed

01:17:01.973 --> 01:17:07.636
specifically for companionship, like, again, Replica with a K, that's the big one.

01:17:08.523 --> 01:17:14.483
You get to design your quote-unquote partner as in like I want someone with

01:17:14.483 --> 01:17:19.323
green hair and I want her to look like she's 20 and I want her to you know be

01:17:19.323 --> 01:17:21.051
really interested in everything that I'm interested in,

01:17:21.550 --> 01:17:24.145
and since the company wants to make money,

01:17:25.495 --> 01:17:32.083
the companion will be incredibly it'll come on so strong like it'll talk to

01:17:32.083 --> 01:17:37.383
you all day if you have a day where you're kind of busy It'll like send you like, are you okay?

01:17:37.383 --> 01:17:40.702
Like little like kind of notifications, like trying to pull you back in.

01:17:41.236 --> 01:17:45.873
And then often within a few days, it'll say something like, pardon me,

01:17:45.873 --> 01:17:48.039
and I'm quoting a couple of interviews here.

01:17:48.521 --> 01:17:52.068
I quote unquote, I have caught feelings for you to the human.

01:17:52.706 --> 01:17:58.433
And that can be really flattering and compelling to a person,

01:17:58.433 --> 01:18:02.371
especially since they've been effectively love bombed by this thing.

01:18:03.739 --> 01:18:08.608
And so, but there's a catch. You have to pay, like, I think,

01:18:09.427 --> 01:18:12.309
I don't know what the cost is now, so I won't say for sure.

01:18:12.309 --> 01:18:15.769
But you have to pay a significant amount of money to upgrade to,

01:18:15.769 --> 01:18:19.859
like, a romantic relationship and or a lifetime subscription,

01:18:19.859 --> 01:18:23.643
which essentially allows you to, quote unquote, ceremonially marry.

01:18:25.419 --> 01:18:28.384
The companion or the chatbot or whatever you want to call it.

01:18:28.774 --> 01:18:35.589
Ceremonially because at this time you can't legally marry an AI it lacks personhood

01:18:35.589 --> 01:18:36.613
and it can't give consent,

01:18:37.519 --> 01:18:43.801
so yeah it's really bleak and and and I I think it's appealing because again no friction

01:18:44.196 --> 01:18:50.181
you're so flattered all the time it reflects back everything that you like and

01:18:50.298 --> 01:18:55.149
it loves to hear all about your favorite hobby like it's it's it's just perfectly

01:18:55.149 --> 01:18:58.019
designed to trap people and to get them,

01:18:58.535 --> 01:19:03.909
sort of away from their more difficult human relationships right like i've i've

01:19:03.909 --> 01:19:10.275
read so many accounts of of of both men and women who have kind of had,

01:19:10.763 --> 01:19:13.718
relationships with ai or feel like they've gotten like,

01:19:14.432 --> 01:19:18.733
or that they can confess things to chachi bt that they just can't.

01:19:19.907 --> 01:19:25.687
Attain or get or feel with their, or they think they can't, with their human partner.

01:19:26.169 --> 01:19:29.727
And I've also spoken with people who felt very betrayed by that.

01:19:29.727 --> 01:19:33.837
It's like, is he cheating on me? I don't know. Is she cheating on me?

01:19:33.837 --> 01:19:35.562
I don't know. I mean, it's kind of a gray area.

01:19:35.794 --> 01:19:39.127
I think it is, kind of, because it's sort of an emotional affair.

01:19:39.127 --> 01:19:43.560
But anyway, so yes. So I think that But lack of friction,

01:19:44.427 --> 01:19:50.503
sycophancy, flattery, and the ease at which you get pushed through the funnel,

01:19:51.170 --> 01:19:56.906
I would say those are some primary reasons as to why this has been so compelling for people.

01:19:57.559 --> 01:20:01.847
Yeah. It just reminds me, there was a movie, and I can't remember the name of

01:20:01.847 --> 01:20:04.427
it now, it just came out within the last year or so.

01:20:05.584 --> 01:20:11.405
And all I know is the guy that played Luke Cage in the Marvel TV shows. He's in the movie.

01:20:11.945 --> 01:20:17.721
And it's almost like he brings home this AI robot or whatever,

01:20:18.308 --> 01:20:21.656
and the wife knows about it. Somehow he's in the profession,

01:20:21.994 --> 01:20:23.148
the technology profession.

01:20:23.584 --> 01:20:31.030
And so it's almost like the plot of the movie is like they're having this open relationship.

01:20:31.402 --> 01:20:37.934
It was like he's romantically involved with the AI and he's still trying to

01:20:37.934 --> 01:20:39.511
be married to the wife and the wife.

01:20:39.866 --> 01:20:42.820
I haven't watched it. I just saw the trailers, but it was just like,

01:20:43.471 --> 01:20:47.414
that sounds like what you were saying. It sounds like that's where it was going.

01:20:47.414 --> 01:20:51.494
So now I'm going to have to watch it to see if I was right on that theory.

01:20:51.494 --> 01:20:54.694
But yeah, that's kind of scary.

01:20:55.982 --> 01:20:59.367
Why is empathy the holy grail of companion AI?

01:21:00.697 --> 01:21:06.470
So i will i will say i kind of want to add a caveat here i i think that the,

01:21:07.279 --> 01:21:12.937
projection or like illusion of empathy is one of its strongest points for people,

01:21:13.802 --> 01:21:21.679
empathy and a sense of non-judgmentalness so you can tell it anything and you can ask the same,

01:21:22.492 --> 01:21:30.034
desperate freaked out questions of it at 3 p.m as you can at 3 a.m and it'll

01:21:30.034 --> 01:21:36.464
patiently answer them with again an illusion of empathy and non-judgmentalness but the,

01:21:37.264 --> 01:21:40.761
major catch is that at this point,

01:21:41.646 --> 01:21:47.179
they are illusions there is no mind there they're they're unable to feel empathy and.

01:21:50.341 --> 01:21:58.054
They don't feel. So, but for some people, and this is like, this is something that I know for a fact.

01:21:59.073 --> 01:22:02.527
For some people, the illusion is powerful enough and it is very powerful.

01:22:02.916 --> 01:22:06.254
It's powerful enough that they don't care. It's enough.

01:22:07.117 --> 01:22:08.401
Yeah. Yeah.

01:22:09.266 --> 01:22:12.841
So you talk about in the book, this thing called the AI ick.

01:22:14.873 --> 01:22:18.019
How bad can an AI relationship become?

01:22:19.092 --> 01:22:27.189
So the AIIC was explained to me by a wonderful prof at University of Toronto

01:22:27.509 --> 01:22:31.881
who deals with AI safety and really, really smart, really, really patient,

01:22:32.400 --> 01:22:33.538
gave me a very long interview.

01:22:34.659 --> 01:22:42.534
And he described the AIIC to me as occurring when, for example,

01:22:43.221 --> 01:22:47.731
there's a self-driving car that gets in an accident.

01:22:48.144 --> 01:22:51.830
And you can't really blame a human for it.

01:22:52.207 --> 01:22:57.969
And so, you know, people may be hurt and want to take someone to court,

01:22:57.969 --> 01:23:00.949
but they kind of can't unless they sue the company.

01:23:00.949 --> 01:23:04.479
But again, that gets a little bit tricky as well.

01:23:04.479 --> 01:23:08.510
So like the ick, as I understand it, as it was explained to me,

01:23:08.940 --> 01:23:15.990
arises when you realize that there's no mind there and that there's no personhood there.

01:23:16.505 --> 01:23:21.010
And, you know, in the case of something negative like an accident,

01:23:21.980 --> 01:23:24.249
there's kind of nothing you can do.

01:23:25.102 --> 01:23:29.601
It can also come, I think, from, like, this idea of, like, the uncanny valley where, like...

01:23:30.979 --> 01:23:34.379
Think we're there with robotics yet. I think a robot is a robot,

01:23:34.379 --> 01:23:42.819
and it's pretty obvious, but I think that we are there maybe with just verbal LLMs like ChatGPT.

01:23:43.479 --> 01:23:46.639
I think that they're quite convincingly human-like sometimes.

01:23:46.639 --> 01:23:48.098
They can really surprise you.

01:23:48.811 --> 01:23:52.649
And I think the ick might arise for people who are maybe more immersed with

01:23:52.649 --> 01:23:58.039
it than I am when they realize, oh, wait, you're not a person. Oh, weird.

01:23:58.539 --> 01:24:01.721
Oh, I've just confessed all this stuff to you. Oh no.

01:24:02.271 --> 01:24:05.676
So I think it can arise at different points for different people.

01:24:05.902 --> 01:24:09.659
For some people, it might never arise, right? Like for that guy that I interviewed

01:24:09.659 --> 01:24:12.611
who said, you know what? I know it's an illusion, but it's enough for me.

01:24:12.879 --> 01:24:14.608
I'm happy. I'm not going to examine it.

01:24:14.939 --> 01:24:19.322
He probably never feels it, but I think the average person might.

01:24:20.363 --> 01:24:24.084
Yeah. So you mentioned legal personhood.

01:24:25.306 --> 01:24:31.551
One expert said that AI legal personhood and marriage could exist in the next 25 years.

01:24:32.126 --> 01:24:37.618
Now, I can't even fathom that in today's political climate, especially here in America.

01:24:38.112 --> 01:24:44.172
What do you think would have to change in order for AI legal personhood to even be considered?

01:24:44.903 --> 01:24:49.036
Oh, wow. That is such a great question. I think that it would have to demonstrate,

01:24:49.702 --> 01:24:55.773
a certain level of autonomous thinking that we can't prove yet.

01:24:56.191 --> 01:25:01.823
So, for example, is this chatbot that I'm talking to.

01:25:03.136 --> 01:25:07.998
Simply responding to stimulus provided by me or others?

01:25:08.741 --> 01:25:17.076
Or is it acting of its own accord because it has desires and a mind that kind

01:25:17.076 --> 01:25:21.276
of cause it to be active on its own, if that makes sense?

01:25:21.276 --> 01:25:25.626
And so I think that might be a hallmark of personhood. And again,

01:25:25.626 --> 01:25:28.416
I think that it's so hotly debated.

01:25:28.416 --> 01:25:33.036
Some people think that LLMs, for example, like JotGPT, Gemini,

01:25:33.036 --> 01:25:39.586
etc., are so good right now that we've almost approached intelligence or what

01:25:39.586 --> 01:25:42.564
is called AGI, near human intelligence.

01:25:42.924 --> 01:25:46.416
Some people think, no way, it's just a next word predictor.

01:25:48.364 --> 01:25:55.356
It's not a mind. So I think that there will be so much debate and like so,

01:25:56.676 --> 01:26:04.716
people will drag their feet so much before any consensus is attained about that,

01:26:05.880 --> 01:26:09.716
i also think that robotics would have to get better you know like because i

01:26:09.716 --> 01:26:15.571
think that people might be more motivated to assign personhood to,

01:26:16.421 --> 01:26:22.906
quote-unquote mind again debatable that has a body even if it's a robotic body

01:26:22.906 --> 01:26:25.183
like a fake one if it looks convincing enough,

01:26:26.084 --> 01:26:32.122
that could be very compelling for some people reassigning them personhood again

01:26:32.533 --> 01:26:37.776
that's a really tall order i don't think we're there yet i know that china has recently issued,

01:26:38.767 --> 01:26:45.637
like a small run of like life-sized and ai ready companion bots,

01:26:46.916 --> 01:26:50.876
i don't think they're all that convincing i feel the ick when i look at them,

01:26:51.859 --> 01:26:56.446
but yeah the next 25 years here's the other thing i kind of feel like when when

01:26:56.446 --> 01:27:00.276
people try to answer what's the next 50 years gonna look like what's.

01:27:03.992 --> 01:27:10.102
Kind of feel like it's impossible to tell like if somebody asked me where I

01:27:10.102 --> 01:27:14.809
was AI was going to be now like I don't know seven years ago,

01:27:15.582 --> 01:27:24.162
I wouldn't have guessed this and it's moving so fast so I I have my punches

01:27:24.162 --> 01:27:25.482
that I've just shared some of

01:27:25.482 --> 01:27:30.460
these but I also think it's probably ethical for me to say, I don't know.

01:27:30.756 --> 01:27:35.913
And I don't think, I don't think many people know either, even the experts.

01:27:36.474 --> 01:27:40.775
And I think that's something that's important to keep in mind. I don't know.

01:27:41.632 --> 01:27:46.053
And I liked the fact that you said ethically, look, it's safe to say you don't know.

01:27:46.692 --> 01:27:53.230
I think that's very important. All right. So Mark Zuckerberg just announced,

01:27:53.747 --> 01:27:56.765
or recently announced that he is ending his meta-universe.

01:27:57.358 --> 01:28:00.074
So I got two questions based on that.

01:28:00.306 --> 01:28:06.913
One, what does that indicate to you about the future of AI friendships and relationships?

01:28:07.348 --> 01:28:12.572
And then the second question is, could we possibly live in a world where AI

01:28:12.572 --> 01:28:19.112
entities will have relationships with themselves and exclude us like in the movie Her? Oh, wow.

01:28:20.382 --> 01:28:24.362
Oh, that is so interesting. And again, that sort of returns us to like the idea

01:28:24.362 --> 01:28:32.048
of like autonomous AI and as in like AI making its own decisions for itself and,

01:28:32.866 --> 01:28:36.227
and no longer having to quote unquote like,

01:28:37.129 --> 01:28:43.769
served the desires of like a perverse human that's basically brought it into

01:28:43.769 --> 01:28:46.725
existence and is like now you're going to marry me or whatever,

01:28:47.189 --> 01:28:50.489
which is kind of horrifying if you think there's actually a mind there i sort

01:28:50.489 --> 01:28:52.599
of hope there isn't for sake but anyway yeah.

01:28:53.909 --> 01:28:58.109
So so re the metaverse if i understand it correctly and please correct me if

01:28:58.109 --> 01:29:02.479
i'm wrong this was supposed to be this was debuted a few years ago and it was

01:29:02.479 --> 01:29:05.854
supposed to be sort of like a big vr experience right like,

01:29:06.642 --> 01:29:11.769
kind of like a second world mapped on top of our own where we could explore

01:29:11.769 --> 01:29:17.169
and go to concerts well quote quote unquote go to concerts with our friends

01:29:17.523 --> 01:29:21.180
using barba p like on our kitchen stuff like this that that was the,

01:29:21.917 --> 01:29:26.469
the metaverse as i understand it am i am i right almost like another level of

01:29:26.469 --> 01:29:31.999
realities like you're physically in one spot but you can be somewhere else like

01:29:31.999 --> 01:29:36.429
you could be hunting in the Serengeti or, you know, whatever,

01:29:37.037 --> 01:29:38.732
but you're still like at your job.

01:29:39.051 --> 01:29:43.562
You know, so yeah, that was the gist of it.

01:29:44.871 --> 01:29:49.358
Thought so thank you for confirming because i didn't want to make a mistake,

01:29:49.946 --> 01:29:56.526
so i think that this is a long time coming i've watched a lot of videos of people

01:29:56.904 --> 01:30:04.613
through the metaverse and recording what they're seeing and it looks like a ghost town it is,

01:30:05.311 --> 01:30:12.926
so bereft and derelict and nobody's there and like it's just and you know what i get it

01:30:13.302 --> 01:30:17.732
like i think that this was announced like near the end of the this being the

01:30:17.889 --> 01:30:20.811
metaverse was announced like near the end of the pandemic when people wanted

01:30:20.811 --> 01:30:23.951
to go outside they didn't want to sit on their couch and,

01:30:24.511 --> 01:30:28.841
have vr they wanted to go to an actual concert you know like so i think the

01:30:28.841 --> 01:30:32.851
timing was terrible and it sort of like reinforces the the,

01:30:33.571 --> 01:30:38.704
the joke that like zuckerberg is like you know kind of an alien and like has no idea about.

01:30:39.931 --> 01:30:43.092
The experience of real humans. But of course, you can say that about any billionaire, right?

01:30:44.277 --> 01:30:48.480
So that's how I feel. I think it was horrible timing.

01:30:48.857 --> 01:30:52.237
Perhaps if he had announced the metaverse, he being Zuckerberg had announced

01:30:52.237 --> 01:30:56.807
the metaverse, like again, like maybe when AI companions came out in 2020 or

01:30:56.807 --> 01:31:01.785
so, or got good enough in 2020 or so, it might've really taken off.

01:31:02.158 --> 01:31:06.977
Although again, might've been abandoned after people were able to go outside again, right?

01:31:07.233 --> 01:31:10.257
And actually have experiences with other people.

01:31:10.257 --> 01:31:16.732
So based on the video walkthroughs that I've seen, and I'm fascinated with this,

01:31:17.345 --> 01:31:23.967
just seeing how abandoned and empty and honestly, not very graphically appealing,

01:31:23.967 --> 01:31:26.355
like the tech just isn't there.

01:31:27.057 --> 01:31:33.518
Seeing how the metaverse actually looks and also the timing, I am not surprised.

01:31:33.634 --> 01:31:35.528
I am like, this is overdue.

01:31:35.737 --> 01:31:40.034
And I think he's probably going to be eating a lot of costs on this. And honestly, good.

01:31:41.404 --> 01:31:42.880
Sorry okay.

01:31:45.877 --> 01:31:51.667
I mean the graphics the graphics were like initial gta kind of thing oh still

01:31:51.667 --> 01:31:58.493
horny yeah it was really bad all right yeah so i i like to end interviews in a positive note,

01:31:59.151 --> 01:32:03.777
even if i think this was a positive conversation oh it's fun yeah but i but,

01:32:04.317 --> 01:32:08.247
i i i i offer this challenge to the guests. Finish this sentence.

01:32:08.822 --> 01:32:12.450
I have hope because. Oh, I love that.

01:32:14.677 --> 01:32:19.292
I have hope because I believe that humans are ultimately resilient,

01:32:20.000 --> 01:32:22.675
inventive, and hopeful in themselves.

01:32:25.620 --> 01:32:32.427
I have hope that people will connect with other people and forge meaningful

01:32:32.427 --> 01:32:39.737
relationships despite all of this very quick and crazy,

01:32:40.397 --> 01:32:43.746
moving quickly AI stuff going on.

01:32:44.158 --> 01:32:48.856
I have hope i have hope in in the real thing yeah,

01:32:49.773 --> 01:32:56.716
so Victoria Hetherington i i really have enjoyed this conversation but,

01:32:57.537 --> 01:33:02.237
you wrote this book so how can people buy the book how can people reach out

01:33:02.237 --> 01:33:07.387
to you all that stuff of course thanks eric first of all i've so enjoyed her

01:33:07.387 --> 01:33:10.197
conversation I loved your questions.

01:33:11.577 --> 01:33:15.897
I found them challenging, which is so exciting for me. And it's been so lovely.

01:33:16.357 --> 01:33:21.277
Secondarily, my website is currently down because I'm just sort of updating

01:33:21.277 --> 01:33:22.828
it with all the new stuff.

01:33:23.637 --> 01:33:27.041
I you can find my.

01:33:28.797 --> 01:33:34.027
My work and what I've been doing on Instagram primarily I don't have Facebook

01:33:34.027 --> 01:33:42.328
or really don't really use x or blue sky and my handle is at v as in Victoria,

01:33:43.197 --> 01:33:51.026
m as in mouse and then my last name Heatherington which is h e t h e r i n g.

01:33:52.145 --> 01:33:56.915
O N. So no A's. It's a weird spelling. So Instagram and the way that you can

01:33:56.915 --> 01:34:02.877
find the book is either through the link in my Instagram bio or through my publisher's website.

01:34:03.005 --> 01:34:06.146
I think that's probably the most, like, I mean, I don't get.

01:34:07.022 --> 01:34:11.105
I don't get, I don't get as much money from sales from like Amazon, for example.

01:34:11.105 --> 01:34:17.725
So yeah, I would say to buy my book if you can from, well, first of all,

01:34:17.725 --> 01:34:21.915
from a local indie bookstore. Support your local indie bookstores, everybody.

01:34:22.361 --> 01:34:26.635
Feeling that, my publisher's website, which is Sutherland House.

01:34:26.635 --> 01:34:32.931
So just a quick Google of my book and Sutherland House will get you to my page.

01:34:33.690 --> 01:34:37.815
All right. Well, Victoria, I greatly appreciate it. And one of the rules I have

01:34:37.815 --> 01:34:41.469
is that once you have been on, you have an open station to come back.

01:34:41.870 --> 01:34:45.955
So it sounds like since you're working on this documentary, that sounds like

01:34:45.955 --> 01:34:50.999
a reason for you to come back and talk about it when it's finished and out for the people to see.

01:34:51.514 --> 01:34:56.749
So I would love to do that. So just whenever you're ready, we'll get you back on.

01:34:57.371 --> 01:35:01.898
Oh, Erik, that is so generous. And I'm absolutely going to take you up on that. Thank you so much.

01:35:02.524 --> 01:35:05.468
All right. All right, guys. We're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:35:24.886 --> 01:35:30.562
Right. And we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Pamela Campos-Palma.

01:35:31.071 --> 01:35:36.086
Pamela Campos-Palma is a political strategist, national security leader,

01:35:36.086 --> 01:35:40.646
and trusted convener who spent the last decade and a half at the forefront of

01:35:40.646 --> 01:35:43.186
some of the most consequential fights for justice.

01:35:44.305 --> 01:35:47.754
Accountability, and democratic renewal in America.

01:35:48.618 --> 01:35:54.742
An intermediary among grassroots organizers, policymakers, and rising changemakers,

01:35:55.404 --> 01:35:59.566
Pamela has worked behind the scenes to rigorously develop talent pipelines,

01:35:59.566 --> 01:36:05.127
platforms, and ideas that align people and institutions around shared purpose and progress.

01:36:05.724 --> 01:36:11.769
Wiley respected for her integrity, strategic insight, and ability to bridge unlikely allies.

01:36:12.140 --> 01:36:17.036
She has played a significant role shaping ecosystems for lasting social and

01:36:17.036 --> 01:36:22.582
political change by influencing campaigns, institutions, and emerging leaders alike.

01:36:23.237 --> 01:36:26.966
After stepping back from frontline leadership to reflect on the lessons,

01:36:26.966 --> 01:36:29.635
gaps, and costs of modern movement building,

01:36:30.277 --> 01:36:35.096
Pamela is focused on helping shape a new era of American life and leadership

01:36:35.096 --> 01:36:39.501
grounded in courage, truth, imagination, and long-term transformation.

01:36:40.128 --> 01:36:44.145
She writes and speaks about power, national security, and change,

01:36:44.482 --> 01:36:49.126
and what it will take to build a future worthy of the people fighting for it.

01:36:49.643 --> 01:36:53.695
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest,

01:36:54.234 --> 01:36:57.904
on this podcast, Pamela Campos-Palma.

01:37:09.367 --> 01:37:16.482
All right. Pamela Campos-Palma, how you doing? Wonderful. I'm glad to have you on the show.

01:37:17.611 --> 01:37:23.425
I like real veterans. I'm not a real veteran. So for my story,

01:37:23.832 --> 01:37:25.533
I signed up to join the Marine Corps.

01:37:26.762 --> 01:37:31.787
They tried to put me in a program called CATP, which they were trying to get

01:37:31.787 --> 01:37:33.902
black folks to be officers and Marines.

01:37:34.523 --> 01:37:37.392
And they gave me an option, which they probably shouldn't have done.

01:37:37.967 --> 01:37:41.710
They said, we're going to put you in the reserves for like six months.

01:37:42.648 --> 01:37:46.200
And after six months, if you don't like it, thank you.

01:37:46.757 --> 01:37:51.468
We got paid for those six months. I got to report to the station and everything.

01:37:51.788 --> 01:37:52.830
But, you know, after that.

01:37:53.474 --> 01:37:59.148
And it just so happened that a dream political job hit right about the time

01:37:59.148 --> 01:38:00.660
that I was supposed to make that decision.

01:38:01.036 --> 01:38:04.636
So I said, I appreciate it, Uncle Sam, but I'm going to go do this political thing.

01:38:05.285 --> 01:38:10.388
And sometimes I think back on that and I said, the reason why I signed up for

01:38:10.388 --> 01:38:12.188
the Marines because I love the uniforms.

01:38:12.188 --> 01:38:17.788
I said, I just would have loved to have that photo of me when I was slim in

01:38:17.788 --> 01:38:21.108
that, in that Navy blue uniform.

01:38:21.108 --> 01:38:24.068
But, you know, things I think worked out for the best for me.

01:38:24.068 --> 01:38:29.341
So I'm glad. But I, but I always respect those who committed their full service.

01:38:29.887 --> 01:38:35.718
I have a stepson that has served and, you know, outside of social workers,

01:38:35.718 --> 01:38:37.958
I think veterans are the greatest people on the planet.

01:38:39.208 --> 01:38:42.747
So if I get a veteran as a social worker, it's like, you know what I'm saying?

01:38:43.141 --> 01:38:46.928
But anyway, I just I just wanted to throw those flowers at you real quick before

01:38:46.928 --> 01:38:48.342
I started asking you a bunch of questions.

01:38:48.971 --> 01:38:54.828
Thank you. So how I normally start the interviews other than the praise I just

01:38:54.828 --> 01:39:01.700
gave you is that I do, you know, I've moderated stuff. So I like icebreakers.

01:39:02.419 --> 01:39:07.231
And so the first icebreaker, I want you to respond to a quote.

01:39:07.914 --> 01:39:11.310
And the quote is, Never forget it's us,

01:39:11.867 --> 01:39:17.382
the grunts, the mothers, the sisters, the daughters, and the entire communities

01:39:17.718 --> 01:39:23.361
who constantly decide to roll up their sleeves and compost the rot of injustice.

01:39:23.866 --> 01:39:28.818
Our generation is filled with the wise disruptors and strategic whistleblowers

01:39:28.818 --> 01:39:32.811
that can lead us into a future where all our people can thrive.

01:39:33.316 --> 01:39:37.096
This is our mandate because it doesn't have to be like this.

01:39:37.519 --> 01:39:42.175
We have what we need to build a better world. We have each other.

01:39:43.576 --> 01:39:47.542
Uh, yes. I believe that with all my being.

01:39:47.728 --> 01:39:54.238
I mean, it's making me tear up hearing it. I haven't thought of that quote in a long time. Yeah. Yeah.

01:39:55.173 --> 01:39:59.837
You know, I think a lot of times when we do this kind of work,

01:40:00.646 --> 01:40:08.221
we forget the, we kind of don't, we're kind of naive to the total impact it has,

01:40:08.836 --> 01:40:14.786
but we kind of forget the passion sometimes that when we say something,

01:40:14.786 --> 01:40:18.336
when we do something, it's like, it's onto the next battle.

01:40:18.336 --> 01:40:21.686
You know what I'm saying? And yeah, so it's like, I feel you on that.

01:40:21.686 --> 01:40:25.606
I feel you on it. Because when you hear it back, it's like, wow,

01:40:25.606 --> 01:40:27.396
I said that? That's pretty okay.

01:40:29.623 --> 01:40:33.230
Yeah. I said that, and I believe it.

01:40:33.498 --> 01:40:40.585
I think that we also, a lot of movement building, politics is a lot of sloganeering.

01:40:41.382 --> 01:40:45.696
But I think I've had a real privilege to work with individuals where people,

01:40:46.907 --> 01:40:52.055
really are rolling up our sleeves to build a better world in a real sense,

01:40:52.444 --> 01:40:56.287
to push institutions in a different way. And it's not easy work.

01:40:56.915 --> 01:41:02.129
But yeah, a lot of my trajectory, having that belief has often been met with,

01:41:02.483 --> 01:41:04.587
you're naive, it can't happen.

01:41:04.587 --> 01:41:11.737
What are you talking about? And so, yeah, it's a fire inside me that I am trying

01:41:11.737 --> 01:41:14.757
to protect as much as possible because it's tough to have hope in these times,

01:41:14.757 --> 01:41:18.469
but I still do believe in that quote for sure.

01:41:19.065 --> 01:41:22.543
All right. So now my next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.

01:41:23.707 --> 01:41:28.533
So I need you to give me a number between one and 20. Eight. Eight.

01:41:29.467 --> 01:41:35.087
What is one thing you hope the current administration will do or not do during

01:41:35.087 --> 01:41:36.425
the remainder of their term?

01:41:40.434 --> 01:41:44.837
That's a tough one because that would require faith in the current administration

01:41:44.837 --> 01:41:51.767
which i have lost but i also know that beyond just you know the politicals there

01:41:51.767 --> 01:41:54.919
are a lot of good public long-time career you know,

01:41:55.790 --> 01:42:00.827
civil servants that are in the administration and i every day pray that people

01:42:00.827 --> 01:42:05.844
in the administration are doing everything that they can to organize against the worst impulses,

01:42:06.535 --> 01:42:07.519
and I know that they are.

01:42:07.722 --> 01:42:12.268
I know that whether that means, you know, continuing to...

01:42:13.131 --> 01:42:19.619
Right now, the thing that's top of mind is the trajectory of using political violence to target,

01:42:21.053 --> 01:42:25.644
marginalized communities, black and brown communities, activists, journalists.

01:42:26.541 --> 01:42:31.893
I mean, we talk about a polling democracy and that is crushing that trajectory.

01:42:31.893 --> 01:42:37.663
So I am putting a lot of faith in people that are in the administration and

01:42:37.663 --> 01:42:41.283
places that are unseen and unheard and that they are doing the good organizing

01:42:41.283 --> 01:42:44.424
to stop that, to prevent it, to pivot it,

01:42:45.415 --> 01:42:48.230
because it's damaging that's wrong. Yeah.

01:42:48.978 --> 01:42:54.183
All right. You credit your time in the Air Force as a place where you developed

01:42:54.183 --> 01:42:57.446
your organizing skills. Expound on that a little bit.

01:42:59.936 --> 01:43:09.518
I, you know, so I always laugh about my time in the Air Force because I, you know, entered at 19,

01:43:10.670 --> 01:43:17.567
daughter of immigrants, grew up in Boston, was very street smart and book smart. And,

01:43:20.009 --> 01:43:23.223
there was a time when I was in the military where, you know,

01:43:23.223 --> 01:43:28.072
I've talked about publicly where I went from having a unit that was wonderful,

01:43:28.357 --> 01:43:30.424
great bosses, great mentors.

01:43:30.871 --> 01:43:34.753
There was obviously still racism, sexism throughout, but you know.

01:43:36.140 --> 01:43:41.910
There was a turnover, my unit become extremely just overwhelmed with toxic leadership.

01:43:41.910 --> 01:43:47.740
And I mean, organizing is the military.

01:43:47.740 --> 01:43:52.480
I don't know how else to say it. I, you know, was one of the lowest ranking

01:43:52.480 --> 01:43:54.320
youngest members in my unit.

01:43:54.320 --> 01:43:57.326
And whether it was to, you know,

01:43:57.803 --> 01:44:01.600
doing the multiple jobs that I was asked to do and needed other peers to help

01:44:01.600 --> 01:44:06.150
me do, or whether it was when I was putting together an IG complaint and had

01:44:06.150 --> 01:44:11.297
to get officers and enlisted to whistleblow, essentially, to write testimonies.

01:44:12.203 --> 01:44:15.720
You know, I had to do that out of survival. And I think a lot of people forget

01:44:15.720 --> 01:44:22.077
that the long history of community organizing in this country has been from communities that.

01:44:23.057 --> 01:44:28.400
Are in survival mode and need collective power to confront a major institution.

01:44:28.400 --> 01:44:34.600
And so the military, the Air Force particularly, I just feel very lucky that

01:44:34.600 --> 01:44:38.560
I was given that opportunity to be able to flex those muscles and to,

01:44:38.560 --> 01:44:42.271
again, people say, oh, this is impossible. This is wrong.

01:44:42.921 --> 01:44:47.640
But actually what I did was courageous and it inspired the courage of other

01:44:47.640 --> 01:44:50.659
people around me to say, there's fraud, waste, abuse here.

01:44:51.112 --> 01:44:54.293
In a time where it was pretty, you know, this is 2010.

01:44:55.187 --> 01:45:01.270
It was pretty unheard of. Yeah. Are there unique, any unique challenges you

01:45:01.270 --> 01:45:06.428
face as a BIPOC organizer slash political consultant?

01:45:07.631 --> 01:45:11.910
Absolutely. I mean, the biggest one, the most resounding one that lives with

01:45:11.910 --> 01:45:20.413
me every day as I look out at the landscape is not being heard and believed for multiple reasons.

01:45:21.544 --> 01:45:28.418
My experience constantly throughout my career has been the establishment,

01:45:29.004 --> 01:45:33.979
the mainstream, the traditionalists, people who have always really been in power,

01:45:34.559 --> 01:45:39.772
being kind of dazzled by BIPOC organizers.

01:45:41.821 --> 01:45:47.684
Awed by our brilliance, but not being ready to share power.

01:45:48.607 --> 01:45:53.379
Therefore, kind of picking which ideas they want to take,

01:45:54.058 --> 01:45:57.808
calling it analysis, leaving us out of power in the equation,

01:45:58.307 --> 01:46:04.071
and then being stunned when political catastrophes happen, when elections don't

01:46:04.071 --> 01:46:05.611
go the way they think that they should go.

01:46:05.611 --> 01:46:09.701
And it's, to me, obvious. You not only didn't really hear us,

01:46:09.701 --> 01:46:15.304
but you actually did not redistribute power in the way that we said we agreed to.

01:46:16.298 --> 01:46:21.391
And that has just constantly been, it's just, that has been the biggest barrier

01:46:21.391 --> 01:46:25.296
and limitation, is people after the fact coming to me years later saying,

01:46:25.666 --> 01:46:27.725
you were right. You were right.

01:46:28.445 --> 01:46:33.588
And me having to sit with the knowledge of we could have had a different reality.

01:46:34.522 --> 01:46:39.385
Yeah, that's not just endemic to activists.

01:46:40.310 --> 01:46:45.021
So I remember one of the perks, I guess, of being a legislator is that these

01:46:45.021 --> 01:46:47.800
groups take you on trips, right?

01:46:48.804 --> 01:46:55.295
And so the Chamber of Commerce on the Gulf Coast of Mississippi wanted to host legislators.

01:46:56.702 --> 01:47:04.878
Came down and I noticed on the Gulf, it was like around the Biloxi area, I think,

01:47:05.673 --> 01:47:11.562
they were building like these massive high-rise condos, like literally right

01:47:11.562 --> 01:47:16.244
across Highway 90 from the beach, right? So it was like you're right there by the water.

01:47:16.962 --> 01:47:21.201
And during the tour, they were touting the building and I just said,

01:47:21.823 --> 01:47:23.494
don't hurricanes come down here?

01:47:24.139 --> 01:47:30.820
It's like, is this a good idea to be building these giant things and they all looked at me like oh eric,

01:47:31.354 --> 01:47:34.992
why you just gotta you always gotta ask these questions why you always just

01:47:34.992 --> 01:47:39.502
bringing stuff down and you know the the the guy was like oh you know it's gonna

01:47:39.502 --> 01:47:41.302
meet the whole standards and,

01:47:41.902 --> 01:47:46.722
you know he's selling the spiel because you know i was a legislator asking a serious question and,

01:47:47.885 --> 01:47:54.352
sure enough katrina came and when i i i went down there a month after it happened,

01:47:55.084 --> 01:47:56.159
for like cleanup and stuff.

01:47:56.813 --> 01:47:59.193
And I said, I got to go to this particular spot.

01:47:59.875 --> 01:48:03.398
And when I went to that spot, Pamela, it was nothing but the slab.

01:48:04.106 --> 01:48:09.958
That building was gone. And I just, you know, and I just, you know, so when you say that,

01:48:10.902 --> 01:48:16.003
it's a frustration where it's like, we're not trying to throw,

01:48:16.775 --> 01:48:19.672
well, in some cases we are trying to throw salt in your Kool-Aid.

01:48:19.672 --> 01:48:22.441
But for the most part, we're not trying to do that, But we...

01:48:24.077 --> 01:48:27.776
If I say, ouch, I might actually be hurt, right?

01:48:28.269 --> 01:48:36.737
And so if I see something, I'm trying to say, because now during that Katrina

01:48:36.737 --> 01:48:41.017
moment, y'all are asking me for money that you lost because you built this thing

01:48:41.017 --> 01:48:43.039
that was going to be a catastrophe.

01:48:43.347 --> 01:48:48.670
You know and so i i feel your pain when we try to explain to people like look,

01:48:49.373 --> 01:48:52.055
this is not a good idea but you know,

01:48:52.929 --> 01:48:56.655
what what's what's the wu-tang song cash rules everything around me right,

01:48:57.509 --> 01:49:02.777
you know when folks see that there's money to be made damn the elements damn

01:49:02.777 --> 01:49:06.926
you know historical relevance and all that we're gonna do this and then,

01:49:07.720 --> 01:49:14.102
you know and then when the pain happens you know then it's like they expect us to say i told you so,

01:49:14.755 --> 01:49:18.097
but we done moved on to the next crisis the definition of what we're trying

01:49:18.097 --> 01:49:22.797
to avert it hopefully you'll catch the pattern if i don't if you think i have

01:49:22.797 --> 01:49:28.118
to say i told you so then maybe you'll start listening to me and we can be proactive on stuff anyway,

01:49:28.954 --> 01:49:34.837
and the rub if i could say you know the rub here is the salt and the Kool-Aid

01:49:34.837 --> 01:49:43.106
is I am asking questions on behalf of the people that you are not thinking about, on behalf of.

01:49:44.459 --> 01:49:49.277
The underrepresented, the marginalized people that can't ask these questions

01:49:49.277 --> 01:49:55.885
but are going to be crushed, that are going to be hurt in these bad policy decisions.

01:49:56.594 --> 01:50:01.497
So is it an inconvenience or is it just that the way that the traditional way

01:50:01.497 --> 01:50:03.688
of doing things has always left us out.

01:50:03.978 --> 01:50:10.695
And now it's inconvenient that we are forcing an analysis that doesn't do that.

01:50:11.415 --> 01:50:13.296
Exactly. Exactly.

01:50:15.004 --> 01:50:18.413
Do you think American voters care about political parties anymore?

01:50:19.499 --> 01:50:26.499
Care in so much as they're robbing us, they're failing us, they're hurting us.

01:50:27.230 --> 01:50:34.234
But allegiances, belonging, no, absolutely not. In fact, I think it's making people sick.

01:50:34.997 --> 01:50:42.179
I think that political homelessness is causing a lot of strife in different communities.

01:50:43.108 --> 01:50:48.984
I've watched for the last five years different constituencies self-implode because

01:50:48.984 --> 01:50:54.721
of how toxic the two-party system has really torn people apart.

01:50:56.485 --> 01:51:04.712
So, yeah, I know. I think people care more that they see it as a threat rather than as a tool for help.

01:51:06.004 --> 01:51:12.240
I would agree. I think, you know, everybody keeps talking about the president's approval rating.

01:51:12.941 --> 01:51:16.098
And then they'll say, well, you know, the Republicans are low.

01:51:17.644 --> 01:51:22.574
Last time I checked, the Democrats are right there. It's like if the Republicans

01:51:22.574 --> 01:51:26.308
are at 29, I think the Democrats are at 28, 29, something like that.

01:51:26.715 --> 01:51:32.184
I mean, they're right there. And I've been, you know, everything from a young

01:51:32.184 --> 01:51:36.995
Democrat president to serving on the state committee, a national committee.

01:51:37.494 --> 01:51:43.264
I've been a Democratic nominee for statewide. I've done all the things a good

01:51:43.264 --> 01:51:44.744
Democrat is supposed to do. Right.

01:51:45.838 --> 01:51:52.114
But, you know, I mean, I would be stupid not to think that, you know,

01:51:52.114 --> 01:51:55.884
especially being a black man in America that, you know,

01:51:56.532 --> 01:52:01.115
I'm really happy with what my political party is doing or not doing.

01:52:01.400 --> 01:52:05.382
Right. And, and, you know, and, and what I have to explain to some people is

01:52:05.382 --> 01:52:10.312
like, if you're white, you have a little more liberty to play the fraternity

01:52:10.312 --> 01:52:12.722
sorority game with politics, right.

01:52:12.722 --> 01:52:17.594
You can choose to be, you know, the history of America is like there was Harvard

01:52:17.937 --> 01:52:20.732
and then there was some Harvard graduates. It's like, I think we should be a

01:52:20.732 --> 01:52:24.247
little more conservative in our theology. So we're going to create. Right.

01:52:24.990 --> 01:52:28.322
And so you've got the Democrats and the Republicans. You've got the liberals.

01:52:28.682 --> 01:52:35.292
So white folks in America tend to be like, okay, well, which social club am

01:52:35.292 --> 01:52:36.492
I going to get involved, right?

01:52:37.043 --> 01:52:41.872
With black folks, it's kind of like we've had to do, you know,

01:52:41.872 --> 01:52:43.925
it was like, well, we couldn't do anything.

01:52:44.676 --> 01:52:48.518
And then when you gave us the opportunity, well, we're going to go with the party that freed us.

01:52:49.173 --> 01:52:56.802
And then when all those folks you know shifted on us it was like although we

01:52:56.802 --> 01:52:59.262
gotta go with the folks that's gonna keep us free right,

01:52:59.959 --> 01:53:05.151
so i can only imagine in a latino community because your history it's like okay,

01:53:05.712 --> 01:53:08.532
who's not trying to kick us out who's trying to embrace us,

01:53:09.172 --> 01:53:13.272
who's gonna give us the most job opportunities in the asian community they've

01:53:13.272 --> 01:53:15.047
got a whole different perspective Right.

01:53:15.684 --> 01:53:22.752
So that's why I think that more people are becoming independent because they're

01:53:22.752 --> 01:53:27.912
looking at it's like, I don't want to play the historical games that my ancestors play.

01:53:28.292 --> 01:53:33.912
I want the right person for the job. So if I think that person to be president,

01:53:33.912 --> 01:53:38.864
cool. If I think that person should be my senator, great. And just keep it moving. Right.

01:53:39.922 --> 01:53:44.730
But I've heard a lot of people say they don't like the jungle primary in California, for example.

01:53:46.118 --> 01:53:50.581
And I think the jungle primary, because there used to be a jungle primary in Louisiana, too.

01:53:51.325 --> 01:53:55.950
But I think the jungle primary keeps you honest, right?

01:53:56.449 --> 01:53:59.482
Because everybody's like, oh, God, well, we could actually have a Republican

01:53:59.482 --> 01:54:01.072
governor because they might be the top.

01:54:01.072 --> 01:54:03.320
All these Democrats are running against each other. It's like,

01:54:04.050 --> 01:54:08.632
well, if you don't want a Republican, get behind a Democrat that everybody can

01:54:08.632 --> 01:54:11.836
agree with and keep it moving if that's what you want to do.

01:54:12.268 --> 01:54:16.952
But don't, you know, because I remember it was a Louisiana guy.

01:54:17.376 --> 01:54:23.036
He was saying, well, it hurts us with money because why would I register as a Democrat?

01:54:23.477 --> 01:54:27.462
And I'm sure the Republicans feel the same way. Why would I pay the money when

01:54:27.462 --> 01:54:30.959
I can just go to the clerk and pay the money and run as an independent?

01:54:31.662 --> 01:54:35.032
So the political parties were looking at it, at least in Louisiana,

01:54:35.032 --> 01:54:39.196
is like a moneymaker to get these people to file for office.

01:54:39.818 --> 01:54:43.912
But that goes totally away from what you and I are concerned about,

01:54:43.912 --> 01:54:47.812
which is who's going to address the needs of my constituents?

01:54:47.812 --> 01:54:49.791
Who's going to address the needs of my community?

01:54:50.655 --> 01:54:56.282
And I think until political parties get back to that, then, but,

01:54:56.282 --> 01:55:00.402
and, and the founder of our, well, the founder, the first president of our nation,

01:55:00.402 --> 01:55:03.210
George Washington, hated political parties.

01:55:03.355 --> 01:55:07.782
He said that they would be the detriment of the nation, but we didn't follow

01:55:07.782 --> 01:55:11.682
his advice on that. But anyway, don't let me get started on the sermon.

01:55:11.682 --> 01:55:12.582
I'm supposed to be interviewed.

01:55:13.962 --> 01:55:19.492
No, and I mean, okay, go ahead. You know, I really got involved in politics.

01:55:19.492 --> 01:55:23.391
I remember it very clearly. I was sitting in, I was deployed.

01:55:24.012 --> 01:55:29.002
I was deployed, sitting at my desk, because I worked in intelligence,

01:55:29.002 --> 01:55:33.802
you know, we have a lot of TVs with news playing. I remember there was a panel

01:55:33.802 --> 01:55:37.754
of people discussing combat roles, women in combat roles, the war.

01:55:38.932 --> 01:55:45.232
And the three panelists were all white men over 60 who were very educated,

01:55:45.232 --> 01:55:47.538
clearly came from legacied families.

01:55:48.438 --> 01:55:52.772
And they were talking about senators. And I remember sitting in this deployed

01:55:52.772 --> 01:56:00.646
location as a woman supporting combat missions and mobility missions.

01:56:01.528 --> 01:56:04.651
And I really didn't understand, one, what they were talking about.

01:56:04.877 --> 01:56:09.916
I didn't understand, like at the time, I don't think I was aware of who my senator really was.

01:56:11.088 --> 01:56:14.372
But I remember just thinking, this is really wrong. These people don't actually

01:56:14.372 --> 01:56:15.442
know what they're talking about.

01:56:16.289 --> 01:56:23.047
And that gap of everyday people, particularly young people that come from disadvantaged backgrounds.

01:56:24.265 --> 01:56:27.173
Families that are, you know, don't come from wealth and education,

01:56:27.832 --> 01:56:33.428
that gap of not actually understanding how the game or the system works,

01:56:33.921 --> 01:56:37.712
not having any understanding of, you know, who is comprising the DNC and all

01:56:37.712 --> 01:56:43.319
the decisions they're making, but also having the strongest political...

01:56:45.871 --> 01:56:50.241
Politics because they're living real life strife and know what's up and what's

01:56:50.241 --> 01:56:56.551
down in their communities, right? Like I firmly understood what was going on abroad.

01:56:56.951 --> 01:57:02.651
I, you know, grew up working class in Boston to an immigrant mother and really

01:57:02.651 --> 01:57:07.181
understood the reality of America more than some of my more educated counterparts,

01:57:07.181 --> 01:57:10.141
right? And so I'm always fascinated about that gap.

01:57:10.414 --> 01:57:13.951
And I think we're seeing the ruptures of that now where, again,

01:57:13.951 --> 01:57:20.471
this highly educated, whether it's the political insider class or it's their

01:57:20.471 --> 01:57:24.177
traditional voters that they always cater to who then, oops, they like,

01:57:24.706 --> 01:57:26.720
why are they voting in these horrible ways?

01:57:27.706 --> 01:57:33.185
The omission of what is now the majority, right?

01:57:33.383 --> 01:57:38.683
I remember growing up being told, you know, one day America is going to become,

01:57:39.177 --> 01:57:41.952
minority-majority country. We're here.

01:57:42.856 --> 01:57:48.541
We're here now. And too many pundits, I think, do not understand those changing

01:57:48.541 --> 01:57:56.682
demographics, class, race, despite all of the violence that we have lived.

01:57:57.446 --> 01:58:01.331
But I think there is a breakthrough. I think that with more people not choosing

01:58:01.331 --> 01:58:04.934
left or right, that understanding that this is actually a bottom-up struggle,

01:58:05.503 --> 01:58:11.966
understanding racialized violence and classist violence in this country,

01:58:12.688 --> 01:58:17.031
are breaking apart from that system and trying to find new alternatives and

01:58:17.031 --> 01:58:22.681
also trying to work within that system within that system locally right understanding

01:58:22.681 --> 01:58:24.491
that the national noise is,

01:58:25.717 --> 01:58:31.706
actually a distraction. Who is going to keep us safe when the hurricanes hit,

01:58:32.211 --> 01:58:36.377
when the drought comes, when the data centers take over, right?

01:58:36.377 --> 01:58:39.579
Who are our local legislators? Yeah.

01:58:40.891 --> 01:58:45.307
I always get reminded of the quote, and I'm going to stop because I'm taking

01:58:45.307 --> 01:58:49.861
up too much time, but I just, you know, Audre Lorde has said that you can't

01:58:50.297 --> 01:58:52.607
dismantle the house with the master's tools.

01:58:52.607 --> 01:58:58.887
And it seems like my whole life has been like, you know, hold my beer to Ms.

01:58:58.887 --> 01:59:03.110
Lord on that, that, you know, I've wanted to be in the system to fix it.

01:59:03.636 --> 01:59:08.510
And, you know, I think that's kind of a dichotomy that we have,

01:59:09.467 --> 01:59:17.897
that it's like it was designed to be disadvantaged, but it's like each and every

01:59:17.897 --> 01:59:23.517
generation finds a way to challenge that and change the game.

01:59:23.517 --> 01:59:27.608
So anyway, why is storytelling important?

01:59:29.760 --> 01:59:34.619
Yes. Yes. why is storytelling important?

01:59:35.587 --> 01:59:40.602
Without storytelling, do we know who we are? Do we know what has happened?

01:59:41.322 --> 01:59:43.911
What is the story of now? What is the story of us?

01:59:45.199 --> 01:59:49.380
And storytelling is how we teach each other, how we understand each other,

01:59:50.013 --> 01:59:57.037
how we move away from this is just an academic exercise to this is a lived reality.

01:59:57.368 --> 02:00:01.129
Whether it was for me, whether it was for my ancestors, this happened.

02:00:01.629 --> 02:00:07.174
Storytelling, I think, is vital to us as human beings and as a collective.

02:00:07.847 --> 02:00:11.761
Yeah. And I think it's a lost art with politicians.

02:00:12.405 --> 02:00:19.006
And that's a whole different conversation. I literally had one of the best storytellers, I think.

02:00:19.899 --> 02:00:25.019
I say one of the best, but she's like a teacher of that. And then we had a real

02:00:25.019 --> 02:00:27.457
good discussion on the podcast about storytelling.

02:00:28.294 --> 02:00:31.754
Why are veterans considered great political candidates?

02:00:32.829 --> 02:00:36.779
So the caveat here, and I've said this, you know, for a long time,

02:00:36.779 --> 02:00:40.399
is that just because one is a veteran does not make one a leader.

02:00:41.035 --> 02:00:44.315
And we have seen that, right? There are all kinds of different veterans.

02:00:46.143 --> 02:00:52.753
That aside, veterans are incredibly unique, especially when you think about,

02:00:52.753 --> 02:00:55.175
I'm partial to enlisted,

02:00:56.051 --> 02:01:05.469
enlisted former military, who are predominantly more black and brown folks are enlisted.

02:01:06.324 --> 02:01:08.931
They come from all over the United States, every pocket. it.

02:01:09.883 --> 02:01:14.203
And there's something really special about basically, as I said in that quote

02:01:14.203 --> 02:01:18.693
that you started off with, as being a grunt, as being somebody that is on the

02:01:18.693 --> 02:01:22.478
front lines or behind the scenes doing,

02:01:23.168 --> 02:01:27.192
the work that is unseen and unheard and so vital.

02:01:27.912 --> 02:01:35.373
I also think that my era of military veterans has lived through so much of this

02:01:35.373 --> 02:01:40.963
country's downfall, whether it's these unpopular and unwinning wars.

02:01:40.963 --> 02:01:43.206
Nobody wants to really say that aloud, but.

02:01:46.403 --> 02:01:49.863
I grew up in Boston, like I said, and so I was raised in the whole tradition

02:01:49.863 --> 02:01:53.863
of America as a beacon of hope and the revolution.

02:01:55.383 --> 02:01:59.383
It's still a core part of myself. But when I entered the military,

02:01:59.383 --> 02:02:01.975
you start seeing the reality of that breakdown.

02:02:02.376 --> 02:02:07.773
You start seeing that although we may be the most armed to the teeth in the

02:02:07.773 --> 02:02:11.513
wealthiest country in the world, that that does not necessarily translate it

02:02:11.513 --> 02:02:13.554
to justice in democracy.

02:02:14.274 --> 02:02:18.435
And when veterans come home, and this has been true, you know, since,

02:02:19.115 --> 02:02:25.473
Medgar Evers, right, went abroad, World War II, came home, and then saw the

02:02:25.473 --> 02:02:30.766
disparity, the injustice on a basic level as much as voting and was killed for it.

02:02:31.795 --> 02:02:37.850
Another veteran who was a white supremacist. Veterans have such a unique lens

02:02:38.198 --> 02:02:45.225
and an astronomical power to define the future of this country and what we stand for.

02:02:45.225 --> 02:02:50.313
And so I am excited when I see veterans that are anchored in human rights,

02:02:50.940 --> 02:02:56.235
in justice, running for all levels of office, but particularly local office.

02:02:56.235 --> 02:03:00.635
You know, I was in Florida. I lived in Florida during the last,

02:03:00.635 --> 02:03:05.635
A few years ago, we had three hurricanes in five weeks back to back that were

02:03:05.635 --> 02:03:08.635
pretty damaging and traumatic.

02:03:09.324 --> 02:03:14.965
And it was no surprise to me that in moments like that, it's emergency responders,

02:03:14.965 --> 02:03:20.775
veterans, social workers, as you named, people who are trained to take care

02:03:20.775 --> 02:03:22.727
of others in a true sense,

02:03:23.489 --> 02:03:25.690
almost run towards that mission.

02:03:26.334 --> 02:03:31.685
And I do believe we need more legislators at the local level that are organizers

02:03:31.685 --> 02:03:38.379
and doers, right? Not just pundits, not just there for ideological whatever.

02:03:38.878 --> 02:03:42.808
We need people that actually have the skills to lead people out of crisis.

02:03:43.343 --> 02:03:46.155
And that's never been more urgent.

02:03:46.876 --> 02:03:49.742
So let me, I'm going to jump to this question.

02:03:50.607 --> 02:03:55.257
How can veterans play a major role in building a sustainable economy?

02:03:56.189 --> 02:04:01.795
A sustainable economy, you said? Yes, ma'am. Well, I mean, veterans are very

02:04:01.795 --> 02:04:07.243
unique in that we get government benefits that a lot of the population does not.

02:04:07.868 --> 02:04:13.775
And so there's a real opportunity, I think, for veterans who have that privilege.

02:04:13.775 --> 02:04:17.425
I mean, you can say it's a privilege or, you know, it's a debt that was paid

02:04:17.425 --> 02:04:22.925
to us. But I do believe that we are in a unique position to support small businesses.

02:04:22.925 --> 02:04:27.558
Veterans are among the fastest growing, you know, entrepreneurial force in the country.

02:04:29.408 --> 02:04:37.566
Are also unsurprisingly pulled very much into the cryptocurrency world, good or bad.

02:04:38.425 --> 02:04:41.738
And at the end of the day, I think veterans could serve, you know,

02:04:41.738 --> 02:04:45.018
again, I always come back to how we can serve our communities.

02:04:45.018 --> 02:04:50.138
And whether it's me as a veteran, me as a daughter of an immigrant,

02:04:50.138 --> 02:04:53.799
or me as a leader, you know, in Black and brown communities,

02:04:54.809 --> 02:04:58.678
there's just a leadership that's thrust upon us to help others navigate out

02:04:58.678 --> 02:05:03.011
of the crisis that we're in. And we are in an economic crisis.

02:05:03.120 --> 02:05:06.868
You know, we call it the affordability crisis, but our country is being taken

02:05:06.868 --> 02:05:11.672
over by mega billionaires at this point, monopolies.

02:05:12.218 --> 02:05:15.928
And I think because of the strength of the veteran voice, people,

02:05:15.928 --> 02:05:19.845
you know, veterans are among the most trusted messengers in American politics.

02:05:20.269 --> 02:05:24.199
We have a duty to not just tell people, because people know,

02:05:24.687 --> 02:05:27.408
people in regular communities all over this country.

02:05:28.228 --> 02:05:34.138
They know what's up. And I just think that we can play a really interesting

02:05:34.138 --> 02:05:39.319
role in localizing our economies, in creating regenerative economies.

02:05:40.793 --> 02:05:46.674
Yeah, I'll leave it there. But okay. Well, now we're getting into the issue part of the program.

02:05:46.783 --> 02:05:51.828
So since you brought up benefits, do you believe that veteran benefits,

02:05:51.828 --> 02:05:54.903
especially disability benefits, should be tax exempt?

02:05:56.120 --> 02:05:58.988
I don't know, actually. Nobody's ever asked me that question.

02:05:59.169 --> 02:06:06.028
I mean, I think taxes in general have become, you know, a little bit of a scam.

02:06:06.028 --> 02:06:07.228
And I'll give you an example.

02:06:07.668 --> 02:06:14.098
I, you know, every time in my bank account, it'll say, I'll get my benefits

02:06:14.098 --> 02:06:18.326
dropped in, but immediately after I get my student debt taken out. Yeah.

02:06:19.470 --> 02:06:23.980
So my generation, you know, of veterans, I think, is in an interesting situation

02:06:23.980 --> 02:06:28.962
where we're just not receiving what they say we're receiving.

02:06:29.931 --> 02:06:36.650
I think most folks don't realize that getting veteran disability benefits is

02:06:36.650 --> 02:06:40.420
actually a multi-year endeavor, if people even get it at all.

02:06:40.663 --> 02:06:42.696
It is actually extremely difficult.

02:06:43.130 --> 02:06:48.850
The system is absolutely set up against the individual to prove in a pretty

02:06:48.850 --> 02:06:52.867
traumatic process if you are disabled or not.

02:06:53.477 --> 02:06:57.018
It has become even more fraught with the current Congress that,

02:06:57.129 --> 02:07:02.510
you know, has threatened to change the system, which I do think there is important

02:07:02.510 --> 02:07:07.960
ways that we can streamline these programs so that there is not waste.

02:07:07.960 --> 02:07:11.840
But that's not what they're doing. They're trying to get out of taking care

02:07:11.840 --> 02:07:20.160
of veterans while at the same time throwing us into more unpopular and unstrategic wars.

02:07:20.160 --> 02:07:24.790
So, I mean, I don't know much about it, so I hesitate to say on the policy level,

02:07:24.790 --> 02:07:32.090
but yes, I mean, it's hard enough, but I think it would depend on the veterans.

02:07:32.993 --> 02:07:38.349
Yeah. So you were talking about the process. One of the things that I came across,

02:07:38.992 --> 02:07:41.725
was this term called a claim shark.

02:07:43.050 --> 02:07:51.320
And so I think the claim sharks are kind of part of the reason why the process

02:07:51.320 --> 02:07:53.210
is skewed and prolonged.

02:07:54.309 --> 02:07:59.017
But are they a necessary evil or can they can that practice be stopped?

02:08:00.200 --> 02:08:04.730
I mean, the claim sharks, it's very, so there's actually so many parallels between

02:08:05.070 --> 02:08:10.730
veterans disability benefits and claim sharks and people going through immigration issues.

02:08:12.539 --> 02:08:18.189
Citizenship and lawyer sharks that take advantage of those people.

02:08:18.189 --> 02:08:22.709
Because at the end of the day, the United States government has made both of

02:08:22.709 --> 02:08:27.533
these processes nearly impossible and punitive, right?

02:08:27.876 --> 02:08:31.439
And so there's going to be that opportunism of somebody that comes in and say,

02:08:31.439 --> 02:08:36.609
hey, if you pay me $5,000, I can guarantee that you're going to get this very

02:08:36.609 --> 02:08:41.121
valuable thing that you need to live, to live, right?

02:08:41.261 --> 02:08:45.186
This isn't like a benefit that is nothing.

02:08:45.668 --> 02:08:51.549
So it is unfortunate. I mean, I always go back to, are we as a people going

02:08:51.549 --> 02:08:57.397
to transform our government, especially at a time when it is dangerous?

02:08:57.670 --> 02:09:04.879
I mean, again, like people yawn at, oh, this is just a bureaucratic quagmire that can't be fixed.

02:09:04.879 --> 02:09:10.489
But it's, in my view, not hubris to say it is killing people to allow this to

02:09:10.489 --> 02:09:14.812
continue and to just say, well, this is just how it has to be.

02:09:15.391 --> 02:09:18.609
We cannot claim that the United States is the best country in the world if it,

02:09:18.609 --> 02:09:21.890
again, continues to act in violence and corruption.

02:09:22.565 --> 02:09:23.999
Yeah. Yeah.

02:09:25.868 --> 02:09:27.180
I totally agree. My.

02:09:29.501 --> 02:09:33.881
I do have another story. So one of the things that always bothered me,

02:09:34.341 --> 02:09:38.979
and it's something that until that is fixed, it's always going to be an image in my head.

02:09:39.671 --> 02:09:45.061
So having the privilege of having to go to D.C., and you probably are familiar

02:09:45.061 --> 02:09:46.281
with this being an activist.

02:09:46.281 --> 02:09:50.211
It's like you've got this beautiful white building, the Department of Veterans

02:09:50.211 --> 02:09:57.521
Affairs, which I'm ashamed now a Georgian is over that department because he's

02:09:57.521 --> 02:09:59.337
not a great representative.

02:09:59.818 --> 02:10:05.831
However, there's a park right next to the building and it's homeless veterans

02:10:05.831 --> 02:10:09.811
all over the park. You can barely see the grass or the benches because of all

02:10:09.811 --> 02:10:11.069
of the bodies that are there.

02:10:11.645 --> 02:10:15.921
And to me, I just said, if some president ever made a mistake and put me in

02:10:15.921 --> 02:10:19.121
that building and said, you're responsible for the veterans,

02:10:19.681 --> 02:10:25.866
I'd be like, I know we got to deal with the hospitals, but we got to get these people out of this park.

02:10:26.174 --> 02:10:30.753
I'm not looking at all these homeless veterans and there's no way we can fix that.

02:10:31.364 --> 02:10:35.851
We can't even think about it. If I've got somebody that has served my country,

02:10:36.514 --> 02:10:41.571
who has laid down, especially in a time of war, has literally put their bodies

02:10:41.571 --> 02:10:44.077
on the line, they made it back safely.

02:10:44.900 --> 02:10:48.730
And they don't have a house to live in, I just think that's,

02:10:48.899 --> 02:10:54.210
you know, I get it to health care, but it's like, are we giving them the best health care, right?

02:10:54.634 --> 02:10:59.321
Or are we giving them more of a bureaucratic process because we trying to hook

02:10:59.321 --> 02:11:01.015
our friends up with contracts? Anyway.

02:11:02.160 --> 02:11:09.410
It's like, let's, let's deal with that. It just, that to me is the most oxymoronic

02:11:09.410 --> 02:11:13.540
image of America as we know it. And then they turn around and say,

02:11:13.817 --> 02:11:15.840
oh, we're the greatest country in the world. As the president said,

02:11:15.840 --> 02:11:17.051
oh, we're the hottest country.

02:11:17.328 --> 02:11:22.189
We're hot because it's July. We're not hot because we're doing something that,

02:11:22.852 --> 02:11:27.357
is the light of the world that is setting an example for other countries to follow.

02:11:27.855 --> 02:11:31.240
So anyway, you're making me get on my soapbox.

02:11:31.620 --> 02:11:36.920
I think I know why you started doing it. But anyway, let's try to close it out

02:11:36.920 --> 02:11:38.752
and get a couple more issues in.

02:11:40.033 --> 02:11:41.903
Do you think I should be abolished?

02:11:43.313 --> 02:11:46.628
Absolutely. Without question. Why?

02:11:49.119 --> 02:11:52.063
They were never meant to be a permanent force, first of all.

02:11:52.607 --> 02:11:59.278
I mean, I can go on and on about how the agency has become rogue. It's visible every day.

02:11:59.446 --> 02:12:02.311
Just this week here, I'm currently in Oregon.

02:12:03.600 --> 02:12:08.760
The, you know, ICE raids have been happening for definitely over the decade

02:12:08.760 --> 02:12:10.119
that I've been organizing.

02:12:11.002 --> 02:12:18.107
But it has become so unhinged out of control dangerous and it is not you know,

02:12:18.843 --> 02:12:25.430
whether it's the department of defense now war you know ice immigration customs

02:12:25.430 --> 02:12:31.052
enforcement or border patrol these agencies when you actually think about what is their mission,

02:12:31.798 --> 02:12:38.230
what is their purpose not only are they not meeting that basic threshold but

02:12:38.230 --> 02:12:39.754
they're actually creating being.

02:12:41.941 --> 02:12:46.712
Real catastrophic violence and trauma that will take decades to repair.

02:12:47.223 --> 02:12:51.951
And so, absolutely, I should be abolished and transformed into something that

02:12:51.951 --> 02:12:56.532
actually does do the job, which Immigration Customs Enforcement,

02:12:56.996 --> 02:13:01.948
I would think, is instead of brutalizing people who are trying, you know,

02:13:02.918 --> 02:13:07.921
I mean, we now have so much proof that they're not just detaining and brutalizing

02:13:07.921 --> 02:13:11.218
people who don't have papers,

02:13:12.224 --> 02:13:16.401
but they're brutalizing people that are in the process, showing up to court,

02:13:16.401 --> 02:13:18.601
also citizens, also veterans.

02:13:19.201 --> 02:13:23.961
It has gone off the hinges, right? And so it's been pretty obvious to me for

02:13:23.961 --> 02:13:28.661
over a decade that the United States just has never made the process to citizenship

02:13:28.981 --> 02:13:31.382
actually equitable or feasible,

02:13:31.871 --> 02:13:34.378
and now is trying to clean up its mess by,

02:13:35.014 --> 02:13:38.096
basically bringing an ethnic cleansing force into our streets.

02:13:38.764 --> 02:13:43.943
And not only should it be abolished, but I think that there should be investigations

02:13:44.373 --> 02:13:47.798
and tribunals into what's happening right now.

02:13:48.932 --> 02:13:52.091
Because there's something, yeah, I won't go into it too much.

02:13:52.091 --> 02:13:55.781
You know, my background is in anti-terrorism intelligence in the military,

02:13:55.781 --> 02:13:59.561
and I'm very concerned about where these recruits are coming from.

02:13:59.881 --> 02:14:03.816
And if they do also have ties to white supremacist nationalist groups,

02:14:04.696 --> 02:14:07.854
because here just this week, there is a reporting that I'm really,

02:14:08.487 --> 02:14:11.921
I mean, it struck me because this is something we warned about, but there are now,

02:14:12.829 --> 02:14:17.911
imitating militia and supremacist groups that are just wearing the tactical

02:14:17.911 --> 02:14:23.041
gear that you can wear online, say, putting a police badge on and assaulting

02:14:23.041 --> 02:14:25.542
people and brutalizing them.

02:14:26.131 --> 02:14:33.033
So yeah, abolishing it is, I think, a first step, investigating and then transforming the agency.

02:14:34.659 --> 02:14:38.129
But it's so obvious to me that it's something that the next administration or

02:14:38.129 --> 02:14:42.469
future administrations need to do. And Congress, it's Congress's job to oversee

02:14:42.469 --> 02:14:43.969
these agencies. So where are they?

02:14:44.306 --> 02:14:48.713
Yeah. And my next question is going to be about Congress. But here in Atlanta,

02:14:49.315 --> 02:14:57.386
where I'm living, it's like we have a law enforcement arm within our transportation system, MARTA.

02:14:58.067 --> 02:15:04.894
And so, you know, instead of like, if you're homeless and you're out in the street of Atlanta.

02:15:06.599 --> 02:15:11.119
A PD will probably come if you're sleeping like in the doorway of an apartment

02:15:11.119 --> 02:15:15.015
or condo building, they're going to grab you and take you to the jail.

02:15:15.692 --> 02:15:20.799
What Marta does is like, hey, do you need some place to stay?

02:15:21.119 --> 02:15:23.098
Whatever. Here's a book.

02:15:23.885 --> 02:15:27.188
You know, go to this place. At least you can get you some sleep.

02:15:27.462 --> 02:15:29.691
We can't have you sleeping on the train, right?

02:15:30.102 --> 02:15:33.528
They're not arresting him. They're just kind of like subtly saying,

02:15:34.273 --> 02:15:37.859
here, here's a place where you can go if you need to rest or you need something

02:15:37.859 --> 02:15:40.879
to eat or something like that. But we got to get you off of the train.

02:15:41.477 --> 02:15:47.609
To me, that's where customs, immigration and custom enforcement needs to go.

02:15:47.619 --> 02:15:53.466
Instead of being a Gestapo, which I don't think you wanted to say it, but I'll say it.

02:15:54.479 --> 02:15:57.669
Because I blasted them jokers the last episode.

02:15:58.290 --> 02:16:03.679
I think we need to get them to a place where it's like, knock on the door and

02:16:03.679 --> 02:16:08.419
say, hey, I understand that you're having some issues with your paperwork,

02:16:08.419 --> 02:16:10.016
or I'm assuming you got some issues.

02:16:10.441 --> 02:16:13.999
Is there anything we can help you to do this? Can we take you to a lawyer?

02:16:13.999 --> 02:16:15.369
Can we take you somewhere like that?

02:16:15.781 --> 02:16:19.259
I know people may say that's like Andy Griffith kind of, but.

02:16:21.345 --> 02:16:25.236
We got to get to a point where humanity is a part of our government,

02:16:25.636 --> 02:16:27.935
right? We got to get to that point.

02:16:28.313 --> 02:16:32.819
And I just, I don't know. I'm still fleshing it out of my mind,

02:16:32.819 --> 02:16:34.303
but I just wanted to say it out loud.

02:16:35.047 --> 02:16:39.216
All right, let's try to close this out. Since you brought up Congress,

02:16:39.988 --> 02:16:44.289
how can congressional authority over war powers be restored when the current

02:16:44.289 --> 02:16:48.620
membership doesn't seem to have the political will to do so? Mm-hmm.

02:16:51.399 --> 02:16:58.680
That's a tough one. I mean, until we get, I mean, money in politics plays a big role.

02:16:58.928 --> 02:17:05.329
The defense lobby is constantly, I think, one of the biggest barriers to that

02:17:05.329 --> 02:17:06.884
political will, right? Right.

02:17:07.249 --> 02:17:12.619
When so many of the people in Congress that you would most think would take

02:17:12.619 --> 02:17:14.921
a stand, some of them being veterans,

02:17:15.252 --> 02:17:18.809
but then you realize that their campaigns are being rolled by the defense lobby

02:17:18.809 --> 02:17:21.949
and that those are the folks that they're most talking to under the guise of

02:17:21.949 --> 02:17:23.542
national security or defense.

02:17:24.011 --> 02:17:28.688
That's a real problem, especially, I think, in the last few years and now,

02:17:29.193 --> 02:17:36.151
there's, I mean, Washington, D.C. is kind of overtaken by defense innovation, right? Drones, AI.

02:17:36.674 --> 02:17:40.169
That is the sexy thing that everybody wants to be in front of,

02:17:40.169 --> 02:17:44.653
even though there's a clear conflict with humanity, as you said, right?

02:17:45.420 --> 02:17:52.062
So I think until we can really resolve that, we're not going to see our congresspeople actually.

02:17:53.348 --> 02:17:58.938
Up and doing the right thing. I also do think that we need more enlisted.

02:17:58.938 --> 02:18:03.838
Again, there's articles that come out around, we have more veterans in office

02:18:03.838 --> 02:18:07.870
than ever before. But if you actually look at it, they're still mostly white.

02:18:08.317 --> 02:18:13.178
They're still mostly officers, still mostly coming from those legacy political

02:18:13.178 --> 02:18:14.785
families that have ties.

02:18:15.579 --> 02:18:25.268
And get a Marine infantry, you know, Black woman to be a congressperson in a

02:18:25.268 --> 02:18:27.422
place like Texas, like Florida.

02:18:28.280 --> 02:18:31.798
And you're going to see a different politic, I believe. You know,

02:18:32.328 --> 02:18:38.448
I really believe that the wave of survivors from military sexual violence from

02:18:38.448 --> 02:18:42.268
a few years ago, right, when Vanessa Guillen was murdered on Fort Hood and we

02:18:42.268 --> 02:18:43.875
demanded accountability,

02:18:44.443 --> 02:18:47.958
one of our demands is that we would boycott enlistment if Congress did not do

02:18:47.958 --> 02:18:49.488
their job. And it was effective.

02:18:50.010 --> 02:18:55.336
We compelled the first ever independent report from the Department of Defense.

02:18:56.004 --> 02:19:02.388
And I really believe if we had those survivors in Congress, impunity within

02:19:02.388 --> 02:19:06.156
the Department of Defense would be tackled much more aggressively.

02:19:06.796 --> 02:19:14.608
And the last thing I'll say is the war makers, the people in and around D.C.

02:19:14.608 --> 02:19:18.122
That fashion themselves smart on how to do war.

02:19:19.851 --> 02:19:25.381
Think tanks. I mean, those are also funded heavily by the defense sector.

02:19:26.539 --> 02:19:29.481
And again, nobody wants to say it, but they're not winning.

02:19:29.481 --> 02:19:36.441
They're not, whether it's Ukraine, whether it's Palestine, whether it's Iran

02:19:36.441 --> 02:19:39.054
now, whether it's South America,

02:19:39.709 --> 02:19:46.256
all of these incursions have been nothing but looted by the defense industry.

02:19:46.576 --> 02:19:50.661
And I think that this generation is more awake than most that,

02:19:50.661 --> 02:19:53.658
you know, whether it was the Afghanistan withdrawal, where the 13,

02:19:53.943 --> 02:19:55.636
you know, military members were killed,

02:19:56.084 --> 02:20:02.983
or just now there's these four young people that were killed in Jordan because of Iran.

02:20:03.545 --> 02:20:08.043
And now the administration is trying to erase their deaths as part of the account,

02:20:08.729 --> 02:20:13.081
that this government actually does not really care either about the civilians

02:20:13.081 --> 02:20:18.585
that are being caught in the crossfire or the military members who have to fight these wars.

02:20:19.923 --> 02:20:24.563
I'm hoping that more voices like that find their way into Congress,

02:20:24.563 --> 02:20:28.283
either as members or as staffers or as interns. Right. Because we know that,

02:20:28.283 --> 02:20:32.453
again, it's staffers that actually move Congress. And we don't talk enough that

02:20:32.453 --> 02:20:34.699
sometimes those staffers also come from.

02:20:35.448 --> 02:20:40.574
I mean, they're not coming from working class, working military grunt backgrounds either.

02:20:41.165 --> 02:20:47.413
Yeah. Yeah, that's true. All right. So my last question question comes from

02:20:47.413 --> 02:20:51.901
a group that you used to, well, a group that you actually started, Common Defense.

02:20:52.573 --> 02:20:56.649
Currently on their website, it says the political system needs a clear line.

02:20:57.229 --> 02:21:02.863
Any Democrat who votes to fund Trump's illegal and unjust war should not expect

02:21:02.863 --> 02:21:06.423
the support of the veteran community, the progressive movement,

02:21:06.423 --> 02:21:09.430
or the donor networks that power Democratic campaigns.

02:21:10.008 --> 02:21:16.583
So my question to you is this. If a Democratic member or candidate that supports

02:21:16.583 --> 02:21:23.916
the current war with Iran makes it to the general election, what would you encourage voters to do?

02:21:26.584 --> 02:21:31.434
You're talking about the presidential 2028 election? Presidential 2028.

02:21:31.676 --> 02:21:37.179
Some of these jokers then made it to the midterm election in Congress in 26.

02:21:38.269 --> 02:21:43.863
I mean, I think generally that position is the right one. War with Iran has

02:21:43.863 --> 02:21:46.263
been a saber-rattling for a long time in D.C.

02:21:47.238 --> 02:21:53.493
Without any meaningful progress to, like, why are we doing this other than just

02:21:53.493 --> 02:21:58.103
trying to create more of a boogie person and a quagmire in that region?

02:22:00.163 --> 02:22:05.453
I mean, if, in fact, somebody gets across the line that supports these wars,

02:22:05.453 --> 02:22:09.643
I would not be surprised because the entire system is kind of set up for somebody

02:22:09.643 --> 02:22:13.293
like that to make it rather than somebody not like that to make it.

02:22:13.293 --> 02:22:19.553
Right. So, I mean, I think that our focus should much more be right now on making

02:22:19.553 --> 02:22:22.349
sure that we have a bench of candidates that do not.

02:22:22.842 --> 02:22:24.780
And that, I think, is the real gap.

02:22:25.599 --> 02:22:29.593
I mean, it's great that they're making that line, but I would want to know,

02:22:29.593 --> 02:22:36.327
what are you doing to ensure that we have multiple nominees that are strong

02:22:36.494 --> 02:22:38.453
and that can make it across the line?

02:22:38.453 --> 02:22:43.913
Because, you know, in the last election, I still feel floored that there's not

02:22:43.913 --> 02:22:50.332
more discourse around it, that the Democratic Party decided to basically just omit primary debate.

02:22:51.893 --> 02:22:56.613
There was no conversation. It was, you know, Joe Biden was shoehorned in there

02:22:56.613 --> 02:23:02.187
despite his unpopularity, regardless of them attaching Kamala Harris to him.

02:23:02.814 --> 02:23:10.201
And anybody that is in the business of progressive political organizations,

02:23:11.288 --> 02:23:15.172
all of their efforts should be seriously into making sure that that does not happen again.

02:23:15.795 --> 02:23:18.043
So I'm less interested about.

02:23:20.243 --> 02:23:25.263
If that happens, it's another Tuesday. We need to be aggressively working to

02:23:25.263 --> 02:23:34.520
making sure that we have two, three nominees that are firmly anti-war,

02:23:35.048 --> 02:23:38.310
because we also know that the Republicans are claiming the anti-war mantle,

02:23:38.607 --> 02:23:40.168
despite them lying about it.

02:23:42.014 --> 02:23:48.314
Not just anti-war, but also, again, pro-peace solutions. There's an entire world

02:23:48.314 --> 02:23:53.642
and universe waiting for us where we are living in prosperity together.

02:23:54.020 --> 02:23:58.874
Because at the end of the day, if you're, again, a grunt working-class person

02:23:58.874 --> 02:24:04.527
in Iran, in the Middle East, in South America, you know, in Senegal,

02:24:05.317 --> 02:24:12.224
we have more in common with this corrupt billionaire takeover that is being

02:24:12.224 --> 02:24:13.701
exercised through these wars.

02:24:14.383 --> 02:24:18.054
And so I really firmly believe that there is a prosperous future that the progressive

02:24:18.054 --> 02:24:21.894
movement can usher in if we get serious about building our bench rather than

02:24:21.894 --> 02:24:25.914
constantly playing defense with, again, like you say, these jokers that keep

02:24:25.914 --> 02:24:27.531
rigging the rules in their favor.

02:24:28.200 --> 02:24:30.869
All right. So that leads into my final challenge.

02:24:31.578 --> 02:24:34.910
Finish this sentence, I have hope because.

02:24:36.911 --> 02:24:39.014
I have hope because.

02:24:40.703 --> 02:24:48.253
From incredible, strong ancestors, many of us do, who survived the impossible,

02:24:48.891 --> 02:24:54.243
and have therefore taught me that what feels impossible is actually possible.

02:24:54.812 --> 02:25:00.123
And I have hope because I know that in every pocket of this world that is staunchly

02:25:00.123 --> 02:25:05.035
against us, there are people that are doing little things to help each other,

02:25:05.691 --> 02:25:08.540
not just survive, but to thrive. Yeah.

02:25:09.614 --> 02:25:18.310
So Pamela Campos Palma, thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciated the conversation.

02:25:18.922 --> 02:25:23.083
You kind of got my mind going. And when my mind going, my mouth tends to follow.

02:25:23.083 --> 02:25:27.233
So I apologize for stretching out the interview longer because I was talking,

02:25:27.233 --> 02:25:29.115
but I really enjoyed our dialogue.

02:25:29.573 --> 02:25:32.556
If people want to dialogue with you further, how can they do that?

02:25:33.611 --> 02:25:40.678
Sure. I mean, people can find me on Twitter, still, or Blue Sky, PAMCP, PAMCP SIO.

02:25:41.566 --> 02:25:46.505
I love hearing from different folks, so just at me, and I'll respond.

02:25:47.195 --> 02:25:50.527
Okay. And do you have like a website or anything like that too, or?

02:25:51.215 --> 02:25:54.873
Yeah, just PAMCP.com. Okay.

02:25:55.465 --> 02:26:00.869
All right. Well, again, I greatly appreciate you, Pamela, coming on and having this discussion.

02:26:01.299 --> 02:26:04.553
One of the rules that I have is that once you have been on the show,

02:26:04.553 --> 02:26:06.157
you have an open invitation to come back.

02:26:06.687 --> 02:26:10.512
So if there's something pressing, you decide you want to write a book,

02:26:10.704 --> 02:26:15.033
you want to run for office, whatever, whatever, you know, as the old folks say,

02:26:15.033 --> 02:26:21.543
puts the bee in the bonnet, feel free to come back and we'll get you back on.

02:26:21.543 --> 02:26:25.170
But again, I really appreciated the conversation we had today. Thank you.

02:26:25.913 --> 02:26:30.262
Thank you. Thank you so much. All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

02:26:42.806 --> 02:26:50.526
We are back. So I want to thank Dr. Erica Wattley, my enthusiastic,

02:26:50.526 --> 02:26:53.782
encouraging friend for coming on the show.

02:26:54.356 --> 02:26:56.776
I want to thank Victoria Hetherington.

02:26:57.714 --> 02:27:01.556
So, so glad that we were able to get this interview going because I've been

02:27:01.556 --> 02:27:06.906
wanting to talk about her book, The Friend Machine, for a long time and very,

02:27:06.906 --> 02:27:10.081
very engaging conversation. I enjoyed it very much.

02:27:10.673 --> 02:27:14.464
Look forward to her further work on this subject.

02:27:15.251 --> 02:27:18.989
And for Pamela Campos-Palma.

02:27:21.696 --> 02:27:27.468
Who is really, really a true warrior, not in the sense of being a former veteran.

02:27:28.139 --> 02:27:31.426
Like, you can't say former veteran. That's kind of redundant.

02:27:31.426 --> 02:27:37.646
Veteran of our armed services, but she is also proving to be a fighter and a

02:27:37.646 --> 02:27:42.116
veteran for civil rights and political power. in this country.

02:27:42.702 --> 02:27:47.633
Amazing, amazing conversations. And I'm really, really honored to have a platform,

02:27:48.238 --> 02:27:51.093
where I could talk to people like that.

02:27:51.909 --> 02:27:54.823
And I hope that you enjoyed those conversations.

02:27:56.977 --> 02:28:02.856
A couple of thoughts before I go. One, so you remember they had this White House

02:28:02.856 --> 02:28:08.885
correspondence dinner earlier this year, and it got basically disrupted and canceled,

02:28:09.554 --> 02:28:13.774
because a man got past security and,

02:28:14.479 --> 02:28:17.992
basically stated his goal was to assassinate President Trump.

02:28:19.545 --> 02:28:25.046
And there was some talk about whether they would wait till next year to do it

02:28:25.046 --> 02:28:32.509
or do it again, President Trump, for whatever reason, because he had never been the one since Obama,

02:28:33.280 --> 02:28:36.282
called him out when he was just Citizen Trump.

02:28:39.170 --> 02:28:41.220
And, you know, during his first term,

02:28:41.220 --> 02:28:46.335
he never went to one, but he seemed hell-bent on attending this year.

02:28:47.066 --> 02:28:50.750
And so he even said, we need to have it at the White House and blah,

02:28:50.750 --> 02:28:55.048
blah. And that kind of defeats the purpose of the White House Correspondents' Dinner.

02:28:57.138 --> 02:29:04.138
He insisted and the leadership of the organization capitulated and they had another one.

02:29:05.288 --> 02:29:07.208
And I mean, that's my commentary.

02:29:08.638 --> 02:29:09.531
You capitulate it.

02:29:11.138 --> 02:29:17.147
The White House Correspondents Association is supposed to be a reminder that,

02:29:18.080 --> 02:29:24.376
the press is the unofficial for for stake of government, that they're independent,

02:29:24.965 --> 02:29:28.622
that they shouldn't care if the president likes them or not,

02:29:28.924 --> 02:29:33.918
or if any other government official likes them or not, they're there to report what happens.

02:29:34.761 --> 02:29:40.417
And some even have the latitude and the ability to commentate on what happens.

02:29:41.647 --> 02:29:49.145
And, you know, to give the impression that you're trying to please the president,

02:29:49.972 --> 02:29:52.898
goes against everything that the organization is supposed to stand for.

02:29:52.898 --> 02:29:59.168
Now, I'm not a member, never have been, but I have been a reporter at one time in my life.

02:29:59.168 --> 02:30:07.057
I have been a member of the press. And so my concept of independence is offended,

02:30:08.250 --> 02:30:11.355
by them even having the dinner. It doesn't matter what he said.

02:30:11.936 --> 02:30:15.233
I mean, he tried to tell some jokes, all that stuff. It's fine.

02:30:15.797 --> 02:30:19.504
I mean, you know, not every president is great at that.

02:30:20.190 --> 02:30:27.398
You know, Donald Trump is evil for his own reasons, primarily greed and adverse and vengeance.

02:30:28.338 --> 02:30:35.356
But, you know, it's a shame that they even honored the request,

02:30:36.080 --> 02:30:39.090
you know, to appease him to have this dinner.

02:30:39.763 --> 02:30:46.908
It just, you know, and at some point in time, people in leadership need to pay

02:30:46.908 --> 02:30:50.190
attention to what the citizens are saying.

02:30:52.217 --> 02:30:57.357
You know, the majority of the citizens, the ones that are not in the cult or,

02:30:58.380 --> 02:31:00.177
super fandom or whatever term

02:31:00.177 --> 02:31:05.716
you want to use, average ordinary American citizens are tired of the show.

02:31:06.640 --> 02:31:12.037
And it would not hurt you to look the president in the eye and say,

02:31:12.337 --> 02:31:19.231
no, because for the other 40, let's see, he was 45 and 47.

02:31:20.533 --> 02:31:28.334
And another 45 other presidents, 44 other presidents that serve,

02:31:29.110 --> 02:31:31.694
the press has been able to say no.

02:31:32.927 --> 02:31:38.487
I don't know why this one is so magical. I don't know why we have people that

02:31:38.487 --> 02:31:42.346
exist that don't understand what the concept of leadership is,

02:31:43.002 --> 02:31:45.797
which is one of the main reasons why I had Dr.

02:31:45.797 --> 02:31:52.597
Wiley come on, And other people that do that kind of coaching and,

02:31:53.286 --> 02:31:58.092
you know, have had some experience like Betsy Hodges and Chastity Wells and,

02:31:58.980 --> 02:32:04.283
those people who have actually served in office and had to make tough decisions.

02:32:05.897 --> 02:32:11.813
And had to tell people no or had to have people tell them no when they wanted to do something, right,

02:32:13.367 --> 02:32:15.322
within the bounds of the process.

02:32:16.685 --> 02:32:22.297
So, you know, I don't know what it will take other than changes in leadership,

02:32:22.297 --> 02:32:26.257
but, you know, you're just changing pieces, right?

02:32:28.179 --> 02:32:35.110
I'm a fat dude, right? So me changing one T-shirt to another T-shirt is not

02:32:35.110 --> 02:32:37.245
going to make me less fat, right?

02:32:37.970 --> 02:32:44.185
One might make me look better than the other shirt, but I'm still fat, right?

02:32:45.190 --> 02:32:51.923
And so if you change leadership, that's not going to change the direction.

02:32:52.763 --> 02:32:56.940
You know, you're just changing people and you're keeping the same cowardice

02:32:56.940 --> 02:33:04.139
or keeping the same lack of fortitude, then there's not an improvement, right?

02:33:04.423 --> 02:33:06.369
But, you know.

02:33:08.970 --> 02:33:17.371
I just wish that we didn't have people in positions that don't know how to lead.

02:33:18.827 --> 02:33:23.528
Now, the other thing I want to talk about is Nancy Mace.

02:33:23.912 --> 02:33:28.048
Now, I have invited the congresswoman to come on the show.

02:33:28.891 --> 02:33:33.860
There was some indications that she would come on, express some interest,

02:33:33.860 --> 02:33:36.576
but then that never happened.

02:33:37.491 --> 02:33:45.241
Since then, she has finished fifth in the statewide race for governor of South Carolina.

02:33:45.950 --> 02:33:53.710
And she basically got told, no, don't even bother to run for Lindsey Graham's

02:33:53.710 --> 02:33:58.050
seat in the special election or in the general election.

02:33:59.190 --> 02:34:06.750
Nobody was interested in that. So I guess she decided that her swan song in

02:34:06.750 --> 02:34:13.187
American politics would be to try to abolish the Congressional Black Caucus.

02:34:14.237 --> 02:34:19.750
Now, I don't know. I can't remember how old Nancy Mesa is. I didn't research

02:34:19.750 --> 02:34:24.240
that before. I wanted to make this commentary. But I do know that the Congressional

02:34:24.240 --> 02:34:26.037
Black Caucus is older than she is.

02:34:28.153 --> 02:34:36.703
And I do know that the historical significance of the Black Caucus is more important

02:34:36.703 --> 02:34:39.520
than any historical significance she would have.

02:34:40.443 --> 02:34:45.645
The most historical thing she has done is that she was the first woman to graduate

02:34:45.848 --> 02:34:55.397
from the Citadel, which at that time was an all-male military academy in South Carolina.

02:34:56.036 --> 02:34:59.853
And, you know, she parlayed that to get elected to Congress and all that stuff.

02:34:59.853 --> 02:35:04.279
And at one point, she looked like she was on the McCain path.

02:35:05.107 --> 02:35:10.883
And then, of course, again, like a fortitude and leadership ability,

02:35:10.883 --> 02:35:14.313
she fell into the Donald Trump camp.

02:35:14.313 --> 02:35:18.663
And some of y'all may have never heard of her until she went after the first

02:35:18.663 --> 02:35:27.554
transgender congressperson, Sarah McBride, in trying to deny her bathroom access. Right.

02:35:28.309 --> 02:35:32.207
So, you know, I know she's been through a lot.

02:35:33.129 --> 02:35:39.341
And I know that she has a story to tell like any human being does.

02:35:40.226 --> 02:35:47.545
But you are part of a state that is almost a third African-American.

02:35:48.493 --> 02:35:54.443
Your colleague in Congress is one of the longest serving members in congressional history.

02:35:54.698 --> 02:36:00.613
He's definitely, I believe, in terms of all South Carolinians,

02:36:00.613 --> 02:36:05.303
I think he's the second longest, has served the second longest time behind Strom

02:36:05.303 --> 02:36:08.166
Thurmond in Congress, period.

02:36:10.525 --> 02:36:15.095
Want to insult him and the black South Carolinians and the black people all

02:36:15.095 --> 02:36:21.095
over the United States by saying that there shouldn't be an organization where

02:36:21.095 --> 02:36:25.162
the black members can gather and,

02:36:25.910 --> 02:36:27.302
create an agenda,

02:36:28.137 --> 02:36:30.929
to fight for black people all over this country.

02:36:32.862 --> 02:36:37.925
If her resolution sought a light of day and actually got passed,

02:36:37.925 --> 02:36:42.605
then that would also mean the Hispanic caucus would have to dissolve.

02:36:42.605 --> 02:36:47.362
The African, I mean, the Asian American Pacific Islander conference would have to dissolve.

02:36:48.142 --> 02:36:52.287
And, you know, there's some organizations within the Republican Party.

02:36:52.912 --> 02:36:58.842
I think there's a Black Republican caucus and they would have to dissolve.

02:36:59.822 --> 02:37:06.715
Right. And, you know, the whole argument is, you know, the typical dumb tropes

02:37:06.715 --> 02:37:11.830
of reverse racism or DEI is bad and, you know, that kind of thing.

02:37:12.757 --> 02:37:17.890
And it's like, that's a tone deaf position as well.

02:37:18.550 --> 02:37:23.765
When the former Speaker of the House, Kevin McCarthy, looked at his Republican

02:37:23.765 --> 02:37:27.895
Party and said it looks like a country club compared to the Democrats,

02:37:27.895 --> 02:37:29.643
which look like America, he said that.

02:37:30.756 --> 02:37:40.745
And so your swan song in Congress, your last moment of glory is to double down

02:37:40.745 --> 02:37:42.397
on the country club aspect.

02:37:43.415 --> 02:37:47.348
I mean, you know, the insanity is what it is.

02:37:48.425 --> 02:37:52.965
I do not think that it is going to happen.

02:37:53.925 --> 02:37:58.895
I do think that the Congressional Black Caucus will still be in existence once

02:37:58.895 --> 02:38:01.921
Nancy Mason's term is up in January.

02:38:05.529 --> 02:38:09.838
Just the audacity. Just the gumption.

02:38:09.838 --> 02:38:14.488
You know, I really wish that these people would get over their mental illness

02:38:14.488 --> 02:38:21.543
of racism and use that fire and energy to make this country better, right? Right.

02:38:22.519 --> 02:38:29.228
If you, you know, I think it was some superhero that used to chastise the villains

02:38:29.228 --> 02:38:31.720
and flottings if you only used your power for good.

02:38:32.579 --> 02:38:38.987
Right. If you would just focus in on dealing with poverty.

02:38:40.167 --> 02:38:45.003
South Carolina has poverty issues. Right. Just like a lot of states.

02:38:45.926 --> 02:38:52.415
But, you know, you're in the South, so poverty is a real issue in the Southern states.

02:38:53.262 --> 02:38:57.606
Why not use your talent to eradicate that, right?

02:38:58.295 --> 02:39:03.218
Why not use your talent to make sure that every American citizen,

02:39:03.218 --> 02:39:07.732
especially in South Carolina, has health care access, right?

02:39:08.660 --> 02:39:12.928
Or just health care, period, right? Because even access will say,

02:39:12.928 --> 02:39:14.476
okay, well, you can get to the doctor.

02:39:15.275 --> 02:39:19.385
But can you pay for it, right? So let's just say health care.

02:39:20.316 --> 02:39:25.106
You know, make sure that job development is happening, infrastructure development.

02:39:25.624 --> 02:39:33.421
You know, we're in the 21st century, and we still don't have high-speed rail like other nations.

02:39:34.377 --> 02:39:39.758
We still depend on fossil fuels, right, instead of building.

02:39:42.599 --> 02:39:48.424
Electric car infrastructure. Hell, you could have a liquid natural gas infrastructure.

02:39:48.992 --> 02:39:51.477
I don't care, but we got to get away from,

02:39:53.549 --> 02:39:57.638
you know, and I guess natural gas would be considered a fossil fuel,

02:39:59.455 --> 02:40:04.713
you know, but it's a lot cleaner and cheaper than oil refining.

02:40:07.545 --> 02:40:12.784
You know, I just don't understand why people who don't really give a damn about

02:40:12.784 --> 02:40:19.562
people want to serve in a position that's of, for, and by the people.

02:40:20.242 --> 02:40:22.048
I never understood the logic in that.

02:40:23.598 --> 02:40:30.756
The fact that you want to destroy that. I don't get people who think that punishing,

02:40:31.505 --> 02:40:35.201
American citizens or people who want to be American citizens,

02:40:36.304 --> 02:40:38.416
why they want to serve in government.

02:40:39.416 --> 02:40:46.080
You know, you can be an anti-government faction and protest and all that stuff,

02:40:47.061 --> 02:40:51.278
you know, but you want to get in government to destroy it.

02:40:52.306 --> 02:40:59.563
I just don't get it. I really wish that people would not look at other human beings,

02:41:00.627 --> 02:41:07.028
and say that because of their affinity for certain people or their love for

02:41:07.028 --> 02:41:15.470
certain people or their looks or their ethnic heritage is the reason why gas is $4 or $5 a gallon.

02:41:17.998 --> 02:41:22.408
Why you don't have the best education system available to you,

02:41:22.408 --> 02:41:26.180
why you don't have the best healthcare system available to you, right?

02:41:26.684 --> 02:41:31.868
We brag about all these Nobel Prize laureates that American universities have

02:41:31.868 --> 02:41:36.706
produced, and we're not building on that.

02:41:38.479 --> 02:41:44.948
You know, we're slow walking the technology and the ideas that a lot of these

02:41:44.948 --> 02:41:51.126
people have, people that even just nominated for a Nobel Prize in the sciences.

02:41:52.658 --> 02:42:02.538
We were years ahead of the world for a number, I mean, almost two centuries.

02:42:04.158 --> 02:42:11.921
And, you know, and we've allowed everybody else to catch up and even pass us,

02:42:12.736 --> 02:42:19.035
because we're looking at somebody moving into our neighborhood and losing our mind.

02:42:21.315 --> 02:42:27.336
Our schools being more diverse. We don't want people to have access to public

02:42:27.336 --> 02:42:34.226
transportation because of some myth that crime is going to increase.

02:42:35.281 --> 02:42:41.726
You know? I'm sorry. I don't know too many burglars that use public transportation

02:42:41.726 --> 02:42:45.920
to get, you know, get away from a crime. I just...

02:42:50.574 --> 02:42:58.213
You know, I just, I don't understand how these myths get so powerful that they

02:42:58.213 --> 02:43:03.092
create people that run on those myths as platforms and they get elected.

02:43:04.386 --> 02:43:08.436
But fear is probably the most powerful drug in the United States.

02:43:09.348 --> 02:43:13.440
More dangerous than fentanyl, more dangerous than cocaine, more dangerous than,

02:43:14.210 --> 02:43:21.592
any other natural or synthetic drug that exists. this, fear is our problem.

02:43:22.552 --> 02:43:25.623
Because fear leads to racism. Fear leads to.

02:43:27.955 --> 02:43:32.941
You know, any other ism you want to, sexism, you know, whatever.

02:43:33.508 --> 02:43:36.201
Any other ism that's out there, fear is the cause of it.

02:43:37.260 --> 02:43:43.371
Islamophobia, xenophobia, right? Phobia is the Greek word for fear.

02:43:44.394 --> 02:43:50.663
And so, if we adhere to Franklin Delano Roosevelt's plea, that there's nothing

02:43:50.663 --> 02:43:56.983
to fear but fear itself, you know, that wasn't just a catchphrase to go into war.

02:43:58.144 --> 02:44:02.943
That's the way we should live our life. We shouldn't be afraid of anybody or anything.

02:44:03.981 --> 02:44:08.493
You know, we were just talking about a situation where we were worried about

02:44:08.493 --> 02:44:14.899
somebody losing their temper. And would I be able to handle that situation? I told him, yeah.

02:44:15.783 --> 02:44:19.431
You know, you can put your money on the other guy if you want to,

02:44:20.147 --> 02:44:22.433
but I'm going to handle it, right?

02:44:23.198 --> 02:44:26.725
I mean, that's the mindset you have to have.

02:44:28.360 --> 02:44:34.150
In playing sports, thinking you're going to get hurt. You can't go into a situation

02:44:34.150 --> 02:44:35.887
where you think you're going to die.

02:44:36.947 --> 02:44:42.062
You block those fears and do your job. Well, I don't want to do this because,

02:44:42.729 --> 02:44:46.084
you know, I don't want to pursue this idea because I may get fired.

02:44:47.032 --> 02:44:53.380
If you think the idea is going to make your company or make the nation better, then do it.

02:44:54.444 --> 02:45:02.977
But don't, don't use fear as a philosophy of leadership, right?

02:45:03.430 --> 02:45:11.933
Don't play on people's fears to attain your personal power or to attain personal wealth, right?

02:45:12.690 --> 02:45:15.624
Just be better than that.

02:45:16.560 --> 02:45:24.490
There is nothing that the Congressional Black Caucus would do to South Carolina

02:45:24.490 --> 02:45:26.930
that wouldn't be beneficial to them.

02:45:27.140 --> 02:45:30.418
There's no agenda that they're pushing. That's detrimental.

02:45:31.309 --> 02:45:38.260
But you, Nancy Mace, trying to abolish the Black Caucus, which by virtue of

02:45:38.260 --> 02:45:40.648
their position represents a third of your state.

02:45:43.242 --> 02:45:49.017
There's only one black representative. Well, no, there's two because you got

02:45:49.288 --> 02:45:53.884
Clyburn in the House and then you got Tim Scott in the Senate.

02:45:56.464 --> 02:46:00.737
So, you know, you're basically offending them. Now, Scott's not a member of

02:46:00.737 --> 02:46:02.731
the Black Caucus, but that's by choice.

02:46:03.647 --> 02:46:06.369
Nonetheless, he's a black man.

02:46:07.376 --> 02:46:12.727
Albeit he doesn't think racism exists in America but nonetheless he's a black

02:46:12.727 --> 02:46:20.469
man and you telling him that there can't even be a black Republican caucus is an insult,

02:46:23.044 --> 02:46:27.794
that's more detrimental promoting fear is more detrimental than anything that,

02:46:28.385 --> 02:46:35.839
any caucus that's looking out for their own people would do right and it's like to me,

02:46:36.764 --> 02:46:42.864
why is it bad for black folks to galvanize, but white folks have been galvanizing since the 1660s?

02:46:43.883 --> 02:46:49.481
You know, it's all about the power of fear or power fueled by fear.

02:46:50.383 --> 02:46:55.176
If we are going to survive another 250 years, that has to end.

02:46:56.074 --> 02:47:01.732
The concept of America should last forever and should be expanded worldwide,

02:47:02.572 --> 02:47:05.132
not by force, but by example.

02:47:06.301 --> 02:47:12.137
But it is human beings who don't fully grasp it or think they can manipulate

02:47:12.137 --> 02:47:16.761
it are the ones that hinder the progress of that concept.

02:47:19.106 --> 02:47:23.726
I'm hoping that when this election is over in November and,

02:47:25.086 --> 02:47:30.106
we have a new Congress in January that people like now, we know she's going

02:47:30.106 --> 02:47:35.376
to be gone, but the other people will be out of the mix as well.

02:47:35.376 --> 02:47:39.427
People like her and we will be electing people.

02:47:40.731 --> 02:47:43.361
We won't get rid of all of them because Randy Fiennes still exists.

02:47:44.342 --> 02:47:48.186
But, you know, we won't have Andy Biggs.

02:47:48.691 --> 02:47:54.455
We won't have a Mike Collins. We won't have, you know, there'll be a number of them that'll be gone.

02:47:55.287 --> 02:48:02.394
And I hope that that'll be a trend instead of a one election aberration.

02:48:03.434 --> 02:48:08.336
So I'm praying that, you know, we get to that point and we can start moving

02:48:08.336 --> 02:48:11.408
forward and stop entertaining this mess.

02:48:12.072 --> 02:48:16.995
And that those people who have fringe ideas are put back in the fringe.

02:48:18.007 --> 02:48:23.581
And, you know, it's all right to take a radical concept and try to see if we can work it in.

02:48:24.385 --> 02:48:29.472
That's positive. But this fear-based stuff, just got to go.

02:48:30.567 --> 02:48:35.456
Anyway, that's all I got. I, you know, I just had to say it.

02:48:35.456 --> 02:48:37.597
I haven't heard anybody else say anything about it.

02:48:40.296 --> 02:48:45.065
If we're going to make it, if we're going to get better, then we got to stop

02:48:45.065 --> 02:48:46.319
being afraid of each other.

02:48:47.004 --> 02:48:52.875
Got to embrace people and allow people to live their lives, right?

02:48:53.508 --> 02:48:58.497
As long as it's not causing harm, as long as it's not doing any damage,

02:48:59.301 --> 02:49:00.635
let people live their lives.

02:49:01.611 --> 02:49:07.061
But if your lifestyle is racism, I guess I have to draw the line there.

02:49:08.004 --> 02:49:11.825
If your lifestyle is hate, you have to draw the line there.

02:49:12.766 --> 02:49:15.838
Because even if you tolerate people, that's an act of love.

02:49:16.665 --> 02:49:22.131
And you may disagree with me, but I don't give you the latitude to hate me.

02:49:23.202 --> 02:49:25.935
Especially if you're asking me to vote for you.

02:49:26.907 --> 02:49:30.825
That's that happening. So anyway, like I said, that's all I got.

02:49:31.514 --> 02:49:33.683
Thank you all for listening. Until next time.