Justice, Leadership & Race Featuring Judge Steve Teske, Dr. Jessica Kriegel and Dr. Terri Givens

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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And so I have three guests on this episode that I think that you will find very, very fascinating.

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One has been a guest before. The other two are new,

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but one is a former judge who has dealt with juvenile justice system,

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and that was something that I was heavily involved in when I was in the State

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Legislature in Mississippi.

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And then we had another guest, a young lady who spends a lot of time trying

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to get corporate leaders to be better and sensitive to the culture of the workplace.

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And so my challenge with her was to incorporate those ideas into the political realm.

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And we had a real good discussion that I hope you'll enjoy too.

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And the guest that is returning is another political scientist.

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Who has developed her own theories about radical empathy and trying to get black

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people and white people to understand each other better.

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And so, of course, I wanted to pick her brain about what's been going on after the Calais decision.

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So I hope that you'll enjoy those interviews and I hope that you have been enjoying this podcast.

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In times like these, podcasts like mine are very, very important.

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And, you know, all of us are asking for your support.

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And we know that times are tough economically, but whatever you can do,

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we greatly appreciate it. If you go to my website, momenterik.com,

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you can support the podcast a number of ways.

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And, you know, we just, we need to have these voices out here.

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And it's just,

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it's becoming more and more apparent every day that in order to stop this arrogance

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of ignorance and this backlash that's going on,

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that we have to resist and resist boldly and loudly as a previous guest had said.

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So if you would do that, I would greatly appreciate whatever support you can give this podcast.

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And I will continue to do what needs to be done to get the word out and to get

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people on that, you know,

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can explain different nuances of what we're dealing with in America.

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All right. So without any further ado, let's go ahead and kick this program off.

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And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Thanks, Erik. The U.S.

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Supreme Court has permitted Alabama Republicans to use a congressional map that

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a lower court previously deemed racially discriminatory.

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South Carolina Governor Henry McMaster called a special session after an effort

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to redistrict failed in the state Senate.

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Governor Brian Kemp has ordered a special session to redraw Georgia's political

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maps for the 2028 election cycle.

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The Missouri Supreme Court upheld a Republican-backed redistricting map that

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eliminates a Democratic seat and divides the Kansas City area.

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Mississippi Governor Tate Reeves canceled a special legislative session intended

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to redraw state Supreme Court districts following a favorable appellate court ruling.

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Tennessee's House Speaker stripped Democratic lawmakers of their committee assignments

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as a punishment for protesting the dismantling of a black-majority congressional district in Memphis.

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Louisiana officials reached a $4.8 million settlement with the family of Ronald

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Green, an unarmed black man killed by police in 2019.

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The Senate confirmed Kevin Warsh to a 14-year term at the Federal Reserve,

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positioning him to succeed Jerome Powell as chair.

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FDA official Marty McCary resigned following internal conflicts and political pressure.

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Cole Allen pleaded not guilty to charges of attempting to assassinate President

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Trump at the White House Correspondents' Dinner. Prime Minister Netanyahu aims

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to eliminate Israel's reliance on U.S.

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Military financial support within 10 years Authorities in Laredo,

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Texas are investigating the deaths of six people whose

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bodies were discovered inside a train boxcar near

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the Mexican border Florida will shut

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down the Alligator Alcatraz Migrant Detention

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Center by June following reports of poor conditions and legal access issues

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at the facility And two of the 17 Americans repatriated from a cruise ship affected

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by Hantavirus were symptomatic With one testing positive for the Andes strain I am Grace G.,

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and this has been a Moment of News.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. Now it's time for our

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guest, Judge Steve Teske.

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Judge Steven C. Teske was the chief judge of the Juvenile Court of Clayton County, Georgia.

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He was appointed juvenile court judge in 1999 and additionally served as a superior

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court judge by designation presiding over civil and criminal matters.

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Prior to taking the bench, he was a partner in the firm of Boswell and Teske LLP,

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and served as a special assistant attorney general prosecuting child abuse and

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neglect matters in juvenile court, as well as defending state employees and

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agencies in federal and state courts.

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Upon retirement from the bench, Teske relocated to his birthplace of Tucson,

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Arizona, as a legal counsel for the Department of Social services for the Pasquayaki Pueblo tribe.

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He is also a consultant to juvenile courts and justice systems on systemic transformation

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to reduce racial and ethnic disparities and improve outcomes for youth.

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Teske has testified before Congress on four occasions in several state legislatures

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on detention reform, zero tolerance policies in schools,

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juvenile justice reform, Juvenile Justice Grant Accountability,

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Child Welfare Reform, and the Juvenile Justice Delinquency Prevention Act Reauthorization.

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Teske served as a litigate.

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A litigative expert for the U.S.

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Department of Justice in the school-to-prison pipeline case United States of America v.

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Meridian, resulting in a consent decree mandating sweeping reforms of school

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disciplinary practices that were harmful to kids of color.

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Three Georgia governors have appointed him to several statewide boards over

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the years, including the Children and Youth Coordinating Council,

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Governor's Office for Children and Families, DJJ Judicial Advisory Council,

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JDAI Statewide Steering Committee,

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Georgia Commission on Family Violence, Georgia Council on Child Welfare Reform,

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and the Georgia Commission on Criminal Justice Reform.

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He served two years on the Federal Advisory Committee for Juvenile Justice and

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is a past national chair of the Coalition for Juvenile Justice.

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He is a member of the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges and

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has served on the Board of Directors.

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He is past president of the Georgia Council of Juvenile Court Judges and the

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Clayton County Bar Association.

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He has written several articles on juvenile justice and child welfare reform,

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published in the Juvenile Family Law Journal, Journal of Child and Adolescent Psychiatric Nursing.

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Juvenile Justice and Family Today, Family Court Review, Georgia Law Review,

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and the Georgia Bar Journal.

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His book, Reform Juvenile Justice Now, is a collection of essays on juvenile justice issues.

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Judge Teske is the 2018 recipient of the Juvenile Law Center Leadership Prize Award.

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He has received numerous awards and recognitions, including Romay T.

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Powell Award from the Juvenile Court Association of Georgia,

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Clayton County NAACP Community Service Award, Howard K.

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Abel's Award from the Georgia Juvenile Services Association.

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2013 Alumni Award of the College of

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Arts and Sciences at Georgia State University Distinguished Alumni Award at

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Clayton State University and the Outstanding Leadership Award from the Georgia

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Association of Homes and Services for Children He is a Toll Fellow of the Council

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of State Government and received his JD,

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MA, and BIS degrees from Georgia State University in Atlanta, Georgia,

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Judge Teske taught as an adjunct professor at John Marshall Law School in Atlanta, Georgia.

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He is currently an adjunct professor at Pima Community College in Tucson,

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Arizona, teaching criminal justice studies and business law and authored the

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course and curriculum on race, crime, and justice.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Judge Steve Teske.

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All right. Judge Steve Teske. Did I say that last name right, Teske?

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You did. All right, sir. How you doing?

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I'm doing wonderful. I hope you are. I'm doing lovely, sir.

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I'm really, really honored to have you on, to have somebody with your expertise.

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I've been trying to get somebody, and then we connected on LinkedIn,

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and I said, okay, this is the guy.

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Because I did nine years on the Mississippi House of Representatives Juvenile Justice Committee.

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And so I feel your pain is what I'm going to tell you.

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And so I wanted to have somebody, we can call it a therapy session,

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a skull session, whatever it is.

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But I think this is an issue that needs constant attention.

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And we'll get into that deep into the discussion. but I'm really,

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really glad and honored to have you come on.

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All right. So how I normally start my interviews is I do a couple of icebreaker things, right?

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So the first one is a quote that I want you to respond to.

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And that quote is, toleration is good for all or it is good for none.

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Toleration is either good for all or for none. You know.

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It depends on what perspective, but toleration should be good for all.

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It should be a beginning point. It should be an ending point.

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If it's toleration is not good for none, that's unfortunate.

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It should be good for all.

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I just don't, I don't. If we're talking about kids, okay, and how kids develop

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and where they are as kids, toleration is essential.

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Toleration is a must.

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Regardless, whether you're a parent, whether you work with kids in whatever

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respect, behavioral health, as a probation officer, as a social worker, and as a judge.

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Toleration is the key to success. Yes, sir. I agree with that wholeheartedly.

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All right. So now the next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

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All right. Let's go in the middle, 10. All right. What one fact do you wish

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people who voted differently than you in the last election knew,

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either about how you vote, about the current state of the world, Anything.

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I wish that fact would be that people would read more and people would study

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more about best practices,

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about what the evidence says,

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instead of embracing the narratives that are created by politicians for the

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sake of getting people to vote.

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Otherwise, we look like fools. Gotcha.

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Did you envision yourself going to law school to become a national expert on juvenile justice?

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I did not. I fell into this. Okay.

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I was a partner in a law firm and our law firm was contracted by the attorney

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general's office in Georgia.

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And they needed help. You know, attorney general's offices are the largest law firms in any state.

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But they still don't have the number of lawyers they need to respond to all

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the complaints that are being served upon them against their state employees or the agencies.

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So they have to get folks, private attorneys out there and get them appointed

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by letter as special assistant attorney generals.

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I became one of those. So I started off representing the state,

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mostly get this, ironically, in defending the state and state employees in civil

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rights actions filed against them, Section 1983, okay?

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But other things, state tort claims, personal injuries, wrongful deaths, things of that nature.

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But through that process, apparently they liked the work that I was doing,

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that down in my county, Clayton County, where the world's busiest airport is

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located in Atlanta, right?

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They needed some help with their social services in dealing with child abuse and neglect cases.

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And they knew I lived down there, and so they asked me if I would also take

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that work on, which I did, and that was the first time it brought me in the juvenile court.

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And that opened the world to me. It opened up my eyes, Eric,

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okay, seeing the things that I saw, the needs that were there, the vulnerable kids.

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I mean, and then what happened, the chief judge took a liking to me,

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I guess, and she took me to lunch and confided in me if she was retired.

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And wanted me to take her place.

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And so, you know, I thought about it and I said, you know,

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with everything I've seen in the heart and head that I have,

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I thought, you know, I think this is where the good Lord is saying something

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to me. And I did. And that was 1999.

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And you know the rest of the story. Yeah, yeah.

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Before we get any further, let's define two terms.

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Very first one is juvenile justice. And then the other term is the school to prison pipeline. Okay.

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Juvenile justice. Justice is the operative word because unfortunately too many

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systems still to this day operate a juvenile injustice system.

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And that they haven't figured out how is justice done.

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Should be applied? How should it be applied when it comes to kids?

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Juveniles, typically those who are under 18 years of age, but we're looking at teenagers, okay?

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You know, we shouldn't be walking up six and seven and eight-year-olds.

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So let's, and that's another issue too.

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There are some, we've heard stories about 10-year-olds being handcuffed and

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eight-year-olds being and handcuffed and arrested and put it into detention. Shame on those people.

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But be that as it may, juvenile justice, as it should be,

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is about treating kids who have committed a crime we call a delinquent act,

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that if it's truly a delinquent act,

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that we treat them with the purpose of helping to guide and direct them so that

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they choose better paths and they don't do it again.

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And there's so much loaded in that because you see, you know,

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there's so many things that in today's world, we've allowed kids,

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we are looking at kids that they do things that are normal in their adolescence,

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and we still call it a crime, okay?

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And it wasn't that way.

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You know, in my era, in my generation, I mean, I did something to cause the

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police and the fire department to come out to my school at age 13.

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And if it weren't for a principal, okay, I would have been sent to juvenile

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hall detention, okay, but stood up for me, which is what principals should do, right?

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You know, don't ruin this kid's life. And I wonder, I look back at that and

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I ask myself, would I have ended up becoming a juvenile court judge and wearing

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a robe, had that principal not stepped in to say, hey, he's just a kid, for God's sakes.

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Yeah, he did something stupid, okay?

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But it's not like he was looking to hurt anybody.

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So let's treat him as a kid.

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That's where we've gone wrong. That's when it becomes a juvenile injustice,

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when we are treating kids like adults.

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Now, the other one was school justice partnerships, okay, the school-to-prison.

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The school-to-justice partnership is a model, as you know, I developed to address

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the school-to-prison phenomena, which is when in schools...

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Using exclusionary disciplinary policies that results in suspensions and expulsions,

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okay, they will lead these kids on a path toward prison.

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What I mean by that is that when we are looking to exclude kids from going to school,

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and we know that education is one of the most successful factors in, you know,

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avoiding prison, then it's like counterproductive that we would easily remove

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kids from a setting that they need to be in that's going to keep them out of prison.

00:22:01.206 --> 00:22:04.126
So if you're going to do that, you might as well just send them to prison.

00:22:04.346 --> 00:22:07.486
I mean, that's the bottom line there, and that's the problem.

00:22:07.746 --> 00:22:12.586
And so that's one of the things I found as a juvenile court judge in my 22 years,

00:22:12.766 --> 00:22:16.386
that if we wanted to reduce crime, juvenile crime in our community,

00:22:16.626 --> 00:22:19.006
we had to partner with the school system.

00:22:19.186 --> 00:22:23.626
It was the major ingredient because one-third of our delinquent filings were

00:22:23.626 --> 00:22:29.526
coming from the schools, and 90% of them were misdemeanor, non-public safety

00:22:29.526 --> 00:22:33.426
stuff, typical adolescent behavior, but all of them were being handcuffed.

00:22:33.846 --> 00:22:37.886
All one-third of them were being handcuffed, put in the back of a patrol car.

00:22:38.724 --> 00:22:43.844
And that is putting them on a path to prison, hence school-to-prison pipeline.

00:22:44.764 --> 00:22:52.004
Yeah. Yeah. I wanted that, those two, because, you know, some people will hear

00:22:52.004 --> 00:22:56.444
those terms a lot. I know when I worked with the ACLU, we used that term,

00:22:56.644 --> 00:22:58.244
that school-to-prison pipeline a lot.

00:22:58.764 --> 00:23:03.784
And, you know, and some people were trying to, like, how does that even work?

00:23:03.784 --> 00:23:09.024
And so, you know, we would have to get in and show what would happen if you

00:23:09.024 --> 00:23:13.224
denied, like you said, denied children the opportunity to get an education.

00:23:13.664 --> 00:23:15.724
That's the path you're leading them toward.

00:23:16.244 --> 00:23:19.744
And, you know, the zero tolerance policies, all that stuff. Yeah.

00:23:20.845 --> 00:23:23.745
I'm glad you explained it the way that you did.

00:23:24.165 --> 00:23:28.985
If I can add on to that, Erik, too, you said, you know, zero tolerance.

00:23:29.225 --> 00:23:35.805
You know, I've been quoted often that zero tolerance policies is zero intelligence. Okay.

00:23:36.405 --> 00:23:41.265
And in 2006, a research professor out of Arizona State University,

00:23:41.405 --> 00:23:45.465
Gary Sweden, did an extensive study on arrest in high school.

00:23:45.465 --> 00:23:53.425
And in that research discovered that when we arrest kids on campus,

00:23:53.705 --> 00:23:57.265
they are twice as likely to drop out of school, okay?

00:23:57.585 --> 00:24:01.405
And if they appear in court, it quadruples.

00:24:01.605 --> 00:24:04.285
They're four times as likely to drop out of school, all right?

00:24:04.285 --> 00:24:08.485
Now, keep in mind, one qualifier there is we're talking about non-delinquent

00:24:08.485 --> 00:24:14.885
youth because most of the kids who get caught up in these arrests on campus are really not,

00:24:14.985 --> 00:24:17.985
and it goes back to what I opened up with in defining juvenile justice,

00:24:18.245 --> 00:24:19.885
were really not delinquent kids.

00:24:20.025 --> 00:24:23.185
They were doing adolescent things that technically you could charge them with

00:24:23.185 --> 00:24:25.645
delinquency, but we shouldn't be doing that.

00:24:25.665 --> 00:24:32.045
But they were being charged as delinquent acts. OK, so I just wanted to point

00:24:32.045 --> 00:24:37.305
that out right there that the research is there, OK, that that substantiates

00:24:37.305 --> 00:24:40.065
the phrase school to prison pipeline. Yeah.

00:24:40.725 --> 00:24:45.325
Is it fair to say with the ending of the Department of Education at the federal

00:24:45.325 --> 00:24:51.965
level and a different focal point from the Department of Justice that there

00:24:51.965 --> 00:24:54.385
is not any federal focus on juvenile justice?

00:24:55.145 --> 00:24:59.505
I would agree with that it was when I heard that you know.

00:25:01.140 --> 00:25:06.040
That they were going to get rid of the Department of Education,

00:25:06.040 --> 00:25:10.820
it struck me immediately the stupidity of that, okay?

00:25:11.280 --> 00:25:20.780
I mean, I heard their reasons why, but the problem was that they were saying

00:25:20.780 --> 00:25:24.280
things in supporting that that were a false narrative.

00:25:24.540 --> 00:25:27.560
They don't understand how much the U.S.

00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:33.300
Department of Education did in terms of providing, you know,

00:25:33.460 --> 00:25:37.580
indirect services through grant funding and monitoring.

00:25:37.980 --> 00:25:44.620
I mean, once we lose that, we lose so much data and information for the future

00:25:44.620 --> 00:25:52.380
and being able to have benchmarks and metrics, okay, and having that type of oversight, okay.

00:25:53.137 --> 00:25:57.117
Now, I get it that, you know, the administration was saying,

00:25:57.257 --> 00:26:02.577
well, the states need to take over, you know, and, you know, they can.

00:26:02.817 --> 00:26:12.097
Well, look, I'm sorry, okay, but there still needs to be the oversight, right?

00:26:12.097 --> 00:26:16.657
Because, you know, then we have 50 different states doing things,

00:26:16.797 --> 00:26:21.157
50 different ways, because there's no one there in providing the type of grant

00:26:21.157 --> 00:26:25.057
funding targeting areas that need to be targeted, like the school-to-prison pipeline.

00:26:25.057 --> 00:26:29.377
There's been grants on that modeled after my school justice partnership model.

00:26:29.537 --> 00:26:33.177
That came from the Department of Justice under the Office of Juvenile Justice

00:26:33.177 --> 00:26:35.457
and Delinquency Prevention several years ago.

00:26:35.457 --> 00:26:38.957
Without those things, okay, without that oversight,

00:26:39.237 --> 00:26:44.357
we're going to have a mismatch of a lot of things and a failure to recognize

00:26:44.357 --> 00:26:47.917
things that the states need to recognize,

00:26:47.917 --> 00:26:56.697
to target in a position way to address those underlying factors that cause delinquency

00:26:56.697 --> 00:26:58.717
that otherwise we could prevent delinquency.

00:26:58.937 --> 00:27:01.237
That's the problem. Yeah. Yeah.

00:27:01.824 --> 00:27:09.344
Yeah. Should the minimum age for federal prosecution be raised from 11 years old? Yes.

00:27:09.904 --> 00:27:16.364
Yes. You know, I instituted a policy at my court,

00:27:16.704 --> 00:27:25.544
okay, that any child under 13 years of age that is brought to us either by a

00:27:25.544 --> 00:27:31.004
complaint filed or the police bring to intake,

00:27:31.324 --> 00:27:34.324
okay, is immediately suspect, okay?

00:27:34.944 --> 00:27:39.844
And not only in terms of non-detention, okay?

00:27:40.004 --> 00:27:46.644
We don't, I had the general rule is we do not detain kids under 13 years of age, number one, okay?

00:27:46.884 --> 00:27:54.644
And even then, you know, they have to undergo a process of a detention assessment instrument, okay?

00:27:55.334 --> 00:27:58.334
But no, we're not going to do it. And then the second thing,

00:27:58.474 --> 00:28:03.974
because you're under 13, are we even going to allow this complaint to be sent

00:28:03.974 --> 00:28:05.374
over to the prosecutor's office?

00:28:05.634 --> 00:28:10.414
In Georgia, we were very fortunate, okay? The law allowed the court,

00:28:10.534 --> 00:28:14.274
the juvenile court judge, to decide whether the prosecutor even gets the complaint.

00:28:14.474 --> 00:28:16.514
It had to go through my court first.

00:28:16.834 --> 00:28:23.374
And we had a very elaborate, evidence-based system of assessing every complaint.

00:28:23.374 --> 00:28:29.654
And like I said, if you're under 13, okay, no, we're not, because once you get

00:28:29.654 --> 00:28:32.534
a kid in the system, it's hard to get them out. Okay.

00:28:33.214 --> 00:28:39.954
And so our system, juvenile justice system should be targeting a lot fewer kids

00:28:39.954 --> 00:28:43.494
than we do generally across this nation.

00:28:44.094 --> 00:28:49.274
Yeah. So the follow-up would be, is that why you're so passionate about ending

00:28:49.274 --> 00:28:54.034
the practice of charging juveniles as adults because you said once they get

00:28:54.034 --> 00:28:56.854
in the system, they don't ever hardly get out?

00:28:58.094 --> 00:29:04.854
Absolutely. You know, I am an absolute opponent of kids being treated as adults,

00:29:04.914 --> 00:29:09.914
you know, and I know people out there say, well, what if they commit murder? I said, in that case too.

00:29:10.134 --> 00:29:14.874
You know, I'm not saying get rid of the mechanism that we used to have in juvenile

00:29:14.874 --> 00:29:21.114
courts, okay, that allowed the juvenile court judge on a case-by-case basis

00:29:21.114 --> 00:29:23.874
decide whether to transfer it over to adult court.

00:29:24.134 --> 00:29:27.774
But to automatically say that if you're, let's say, in Georgia,

00:29:27.934 --> 00:29:31.714
13 years of age or older, and you commit, you know,

00:29:31.934 --> 00:29:35.194
one of the deadly sins, as we call it, used to be the seven,

00:29:35.334 --> 00:29:37.354
now it's like up to 12 or something like that,

00:29:37.574 --> 00:29:41.694
you know, that you automatically have to go to adult court without any independent

00:29:41.694 --> 00:29:47.194
individual assessment, okay, as to whether that kid should even be an adult court.

00:29:47.374 --> 00:29:49.534
That's ridiculous, okay?

00:29:49.794 --> 00:29:53.974
That is stupidity. Based upon adolescent research.

00:29:54.785 --> 00:29:58.425
Of the mind, their mind, okay, which their frontal lobe here,

00:29:58.905 --> 00:30:08.305
which is about, you know, translating emotion into logic, is not developed for guys till 25.

00:30:08.305 --> 00:30:10.805
For women, it's, you know, 23.

00:30:11.185 --> 00:30:15.105
So hence why we have terms all our life.

00:30:15.305 --> 00:30:19.345
We've heard teenage rebellion and teens being prone to risk-taking behaviors.

00:30:19.345 --> 00:30:23.345
That's because of this part of the brain, okay? Hence why the United States

00:30:23.345 --> 00:30:26.365
Supreme Court made the decisions in Miller v.

00:30:26.705 --> 00:30:31.845
Alabama and Graham saying, no longer can we put kids in prison for life without parole.

00:30:33.265 --> 00:30:34.685
It's because of that.

00:30:38.105 --> 00:30:41.345
You're right. I'm very passionate about that. I think it's the worst thing we

00:30:41.345 --> 00:30:45.645
ever did, is pass those laws in the mid-1990s.

00:30:45.645 --> 00:30:51.145
By the way, at a height when it is true, the crime rate among juveniles,

00:30:51.285 --> 00:30:55.425
especially the violent crime, went up in peak, but it's been down ever since.

00:30:55.565 --> 00:30:58.365
Right after, right when they were passing these things, wouldn't you know,

00:30:58.825 --> 00:31:02.845
okay, it started dropping and it's been down ever since.

00:31:03.565 --> 00:31:07.405
That's the sad thing about this. We did it on a false narrative.

00:31:07.665 --> 00:31:10.185
We passed legislation on a false Samaritan.

00:31:11.325 --> 00:31:16.505
Yeah. Cause the guy that was really pushing it, I kind of compare,

00:31:16.605 --> 00:31:20.205
I can't remember his name, but he kind of, kind of compare him to like Oppenheimer. Right.

00:31:20.725 --> 00:31:25.245
It was like, you know, I made the bump and it was like, please don't use it ever again. Right.

00:31:25.465 --> 00:31:30.825
And this guy, he, he was, I think he was the one that actually coined the term super predator.

00:31:31.645 --> 00:31:35.145
DeLulio. Yeah. And, and yeah. Professor DeLulio.

00:31:35.365 --> 00:31:39.425
Yeah. And he's been like on the national circuit, I guess I don't know if he's

00:31:39.425 --> 00:31:43.685
still alive or not but I know ever since he was trying to say when he saw the

00:31:43.685 --> 00:31:48.145
data he was like going oh no no no don't pass this law or let's repeal this

00:31:48.145 --> 00:31:49.465
or whatever ever since then,

00:31:50.185 --> 00:31:55.085
You're absolutely right. And in fact, all the briefs that amicus curiae briefs,

00:31:55.225 --> 00:32:00.705
friends of the court briefs that were filed in the Graham case and the Mueller case and so forth,

00:32:00.925 --> 00:32:07.725
you will see his name on those briefs in support of the Supreme Court holding

00:32:07.725 --> 00:32:11.865
that kids should not be treated, okay, as adults. Yeah.

00:32:12.185 --> 00:32:15.485
And then I remember there was a case in Florida.

00:32:16.085 --> 00:32:21.185
There were these two kids and they were imitating what they were seeing on WWE.

00:32:22.225 --> 00:32:28.585
And one of the kids killed the other kid by doing some kind of move or whatever.

00:32:29.005 --> 00:32:33.725
And the child was a big kid physically, but he was 10. man.

00:32:34.505 --> 00:32:38.345
And, and they, you know, they convicted him and put him in jail.

00:32:38.605 --> 00:32:42.085
He wasn't in jail, he's not in jail for life, but you know, he got,

00:32:42.185 --> 00:32:45.565
he got charged, you know, like an adult. And I just thought,

00:32:45.845 --> 00:32:49.145
I mean, they were just roughhousing, you know what I'm saying?

00:32:49.385 --> 00:32:53.945
Accidents happen, you know, and it's, it's sad, but it's like,

00:32:54.065 --> 00:32:59.005
it's even more of a tragedy that now this, during the formative years of this

00:32:59.005 --> 00:33:01.725
child's life, he was going to be in prison.

00:33:01.825 --> 00:33:07.045
And it just, So I feel that same passion that you have.

00:33:07.165 --> 00:33:12.745
I think we got to have some compassion in the system because,

00:33:12.765 --> 00:33:17.125
like you said, we're not – and a lot of people don't understand that we're not fully developed.

00:33:17.565 --> 00:33:20.825
That could go a whole other track, but I'm going to try. That's right.

00:33:21.999 --> 00:33:26.619
Explain the difference of kids who make us mad versus kids who scare us.

00:33:27.379 --> 00:33:33.259
Yeah, so that goes to something I mentioned a moment ago about,

00:33:33.259 --> 00:33:38.899
you know, what is truly a delinquent act, okay,

00:33:39.539 --> 00:33:47.479
versus, you know, what was an act that's grounded more in an adolescent way

00:33:47.479 --> 00:33:51.559
due to the fact that their frontal lobe is not fully developed.

00:33:51.559 --> 00:33:54.399
Okay I I also call them

00:33:54.399 --> 00:34:00.639
POA kids those are the piss off adult kids okay you know is and I would train

00:34:00.639 --> 00:34:05.139
my intake staff I would train my probation officers you know I met with them

00:34:05.139 --> 00:34:10.919
every month okay and I would say you need to ask yourself is this a piss off

00:34:10.919 --> 00:34:14.259
adult kid okay or is this truly a delinquent kid,

00:34:14.699 --> 00:34:18.239
okay, who is committing crimes, okay.

00:34:19.099 --> 00:34:27.019
You know, not based merely upon his adolescent status, okay,

00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:30.759
but there is a propensity for criminal behavior.

00:34:31.099 --> 00:34:35.379
And one of the ways to, you know, and to look at that is, you know,

00:34:35.499 --> 00:34:38.559
what is the nature of the crime or crimes, okay?

00:34:38.919 --> 00:34:45.979
Are they public safety crimes, but the vast majority of kids that we receive

00:34:45.979 --> 00:34:50.119
in terms of complaints coming in or brought down to intake, the vast majority

00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:51.299
of them are not delinquent kids.

00:34:52.859 --> 00:35:02.199
Hence why I built my diversion division, okay, and I called it Restorative Justice Division.

00:35:02.619 --> 00:35:09.419
And what they did is that they got really good at developing various types of

00:35:09.419 --> 00:35:11.999
programs, educational, restorative.

00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:19.419
When we built our new juvenile court building, there was a mediation and restorative

00:35:19.419 --> 00:35:20.719
justice center in there.

00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:25.519
You know, we would bring people together, victims together with the juvenile

00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:33.939
offender and parents and work things out, you know, and we diverted the majority

00:35:33.939 --> 00:35:35.239
of the cases that came in.

00:35:35.359 --> 00:35:37.639
And guess what? Our crime rate went down.

00:35:38.059 --> 00:35:40.179
Our juvenile crime rate went down significantly.

00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:46.819
Okay. I mean, there's a lot of factors contributed to that. There's no silver bullet, smoking gun.

00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:53.479
Okay. But there is a comprehensive approach targeting, you know,

00:35:54.119 --> 00:36:02.739
various areas of need for young people from education and behavioral health and so on. Okay.

00:36:03.159 --> 00:36:06.059
So, yeah, you know, there's a lot of things.

00:36:06.803 --> 00:36:11.563
And that's one of the biggest mistakes we make in juvenile justice is we do

00:36:11.563 --> 00:36:15.323
not do a good job at the front door, at the gate.

00:36:15.443 --> 00:36:19.963
And we let too many kids in that don't need to come in, and we actually make

00:36:19.963 --> 00:36:22.423
them worse. We make them worse.

00:36:22.863 --> 00:36:30.163
And that's where I describe those systems as a juvenile injustice system.

00:36:31.183 --> 00:36:37.503
So I think that partially answers my next question. Why are black youth five

00:36:37.503 --> 00:36:41.703
times more likely than white youth to be incarcerated? Okay.

00:36:43.683 --> 00:36:47.043
I'm going to start with what I call a broken system. Okay.

00:36:47.463 --> 00:36:54.103
You know, Erik, I've been, you know, during my tenure, when I wasn't off on

00:36:54.103 --> 00:36:58.683
the bench, I was somewhere in the country at the request,

00:36:59.003 --> 00:37:03.323
okay, of local jurisdictions, some of them statewide jurisdictions.

00:37:05.343 --> 00:37:10.203
Wanting, wanting advice, technical, technical advice,

00:37:10.523 --> 00:37:16.823
where I would spend two or three days there working with a, their stakeholders

00:37:16.823 --> 00:37:23.043
from all the relevant agencies that touch on young people in their community about how,

00:37:23.223 --> 00:37:26.623
how to negotiate an interagency agreement where they're working together,

00:37:26.803 --> 00:37:31.183
targeting the area of needs in their community.

00:37:31.763 --> 00:37:38.323
And what I have found, Eric, is that in all these travels and meeting so many

00:37:38.323 --> 00:37:42.763
people, I've never met one that didn't care about young people. Okay.

00:37:43.043 --> 00:37:47.323
So, but it begs the question, these systems had me there because they also knew

00:37:47.323 --> 00:37:48.743
that there were racial disparities.

00:37:49.283 --> 00:37:52.243
There were, you know, in their outcomes. All right.

00:37:52.903 --> 00:37:59.183
And what What it really came down to is that I don't care how many good people

00:37:59.183 --> 00:38:04.583
are working in your juvenile justice system with a great heart and a great head.

00:38:04.663 --> 00:38:08.403
But if the system is broken, they're still going to make bad decisions.

00:38:09.522 --> 00:38:13.642
And so that helped them to focus on doing

00:38:13.642 --> 00:38:19.762
a much deeper dive and inspection of their system and helping them to implement

00:38:19.762 --> 00:38:30.102
tools to ensure that decisions they're making are not based primarily on subjective thinking, okay?

00:38:30.722 --> 00:38:36.702
Subjective judgment, where implicit bias, which is a reality,

00:38:37.182 --> 00:38:40.062
okay? can seep in, and you don't even know it.

00:38:40.442 --> 00:38:46.102
And people get, you know, they get confused. Implicit bias and racism are two

00:38:46.102 --> 00:38:47.422
different things, okay?

00:38:47.742 --> 00:38:53.202
All right? We all, regardless of our color skin, have some degree of implicit

00:38:53.202 --> 00:38:55.922
bias that operates, and we don't know it, okay?

00:38:56.082 --> 00:39:01.162
But if we can implement the right type of evidence-based tools,

00:39:01.522 --> 00:39:06.162
like detention assessment instruments or risk and needs assessment at the end

00:39:06.162 --> 00:39:08.982
of it, it's sentencing or what we call dispositions here,

00:39:09.402 --> 00:39:16.342
detention assessment, beginning assessments on diversions that not even Adolf Hitler, okay.

00:39:17.062 --> 00:39:19.822
You know, would be able to detain a Jewish kid.

00:39:20.202 --> 00:39:24.142
All right. That's what we need. And that's what systems have failed to implement.

00:39:24.402 --> 00:39:30.662
Those systems that have, have done a deeper, have done a very good job in reducing

00:39:30.662 --> 00:39:35.862
significantly the number of kids of color being detained.

00:39:36.282 --> 00:39:40.202
And it eventually works out on the streets with police because when the police,

00:39:40.382 --> 00:39:45.222
when they over time begin to realize this is not a kid that they're going to

00:39:45.222 --> 00:39:49.742
detain, this is not a kid that they're going to send over to the prosecutor's office,

00:39:50.362 --> 00:39:54.462
then it begins to open up conversation between my court and the police department

00:39:54.462 --> 00:39:57.542
where I've gone over there and had these conversations with them as to why.

00:39:57.542 --> 00:40:00.962
And then they begin to change their culture on the street.

00:40:02.789 --> 00:40:08.449
Yeah. And, you know, my state probably was one of those folks that I think that's

00:40:08.449 --> 00:40:11.029
how your name got in my mind.

00:40:11.329 --> 00:40:15.689
You know, I'm sure that we reached out to you or somebody in Mississippi reached out to you.

00:40:16.229 --> 00:40:17.949
Rush Limbaugh's brother was like,

00:40:19.110 --> 00:40:24.330
you know, on the circuit, too, as far as trying to reform juvenile justice and all that.

00:40:24.610 --> 00:40:28.370
I know he definitely came to one of our committee hearings. Well,

00:40:28.730 --> 00:40:31.470
Meridian, I was involved in Meridian.

00:40:31.630 --> 00:40:35.910
I was the expert for the Civil Rights Division, U.S.

00:40:36.010 --> 00:40:42.730
Attorney, in the lawsuit that was filed at their Meridian school system and

00:40:42.730 --> 00:40:45.210
the State Department of Juvenile Justice.

00:40:45.210 --> 00:40:52.790
And so I was certified as a litigative expert.

00:40:53.010 --> 00:41:01.490
And so I went to Meridian and I interviewed the juvenile court workers there, okay,

00:41:02.070 --> 00:41:08.810
and one of the judges and the prosecutor and the defender.

00:41:08.810 --> 00:41:17.370
And I even talked to a gathering of the NAACP and people in the community and

00:41:17.370 --> 00:41:18.890
I wrote up my expert report.

00:41:19.050 --> 00:41:21.470
Let me tell you the unique thing here.

00:41:21.930 --> 00:41:27.870
So I submitted my expert report, identified where the problems are.

00:41:29.130 --> 00:41:33.410
Next thing you know, I get a call from the lead attorney in the U.S.

00:41:33.730 --> 00:41:34.930
Attorney's Office in D.C.

00:41:35.670 --> 00:41:40.150
And says, we have an interesting scenario here.

00:41:40.510 --> 00:41:47.250
In fact, if my memory serves around, I think she even spoke to Eric Holder,

00:41:47.390 --> 00:41:51.050
the attorney general at the time, about what do we do with this?

00:41:51.130 --> 00:41:55.550
And said, well, let's let Judge Teske decide.

00:41:55.650 --> 00:42:00.390
Well, what the request was, was that the defendants wanted to know if I would

00:42:00.390 --> 00:42:05.930
be willing to provide something in writing like a practice guide on how to resolve

00:42:05.930 --> 00:42:07.010
the issues, I mentioned.

00:42:08.037 --> 00:42:11.537
And I did. I said, this is great, you know, okay.

00:42:12.017 --> 00:42:18.557
And I really believe that that facilitated the settlement agreement and the

00:42:18.557 --> 00:42:20.997
federal court judge accepted it.

00:42:21.177 --> 00:42:27.457
And practically, almost, my recommendations on how to resolve it was made part

00:42:27.457 --> 00:42:28.377
of the settlement agreement.

00:42:28.717 --> 00:42:31.757
And we know the rest of the story. There were improvements there,

00:42:31.997 --> 00:42:33.357
significant improvements in Meridian.

00:42:33.577 --> 00:42:37.557
I mean, you had kids of color, okay.

00:42:38.037 --> 00:42:43.137
There were stories of, you know, them being, the police being called to come

00:42:43.137 --> 00:42:46.957
to the school because a kid passed gas in the classroom.

00:42:47.297 --> 00:42:49.137
How ridiculous is that?

00:42:50.477 --> 00:42:54.497
What type of culture is that? Yeah.

00:42:54.877 --> 00:42:59.497
Yeah. I don't know how any of these African-American students,

00:42:59.497 --> 00:43:02.677
you know, even felt safe going to school.

00:43:02.977 --> 00:43:08.617
Yeah. That was a big deal. I mean, you know, kids were being sent.

00:43:08.837 --> 00:43:11.697
Our juvenile justice center is called Oakley.

00:43:12.097 --> 00:43:16.777
And so we had a kid that he was, he wasn't from Meridian.

00:43:16.857 --> 00:43:21.097
He was like from around Brookhaven, Macomb area, if I remember correctly.

00:43:21.417 --> 00:43:28.217
He was about 10 years old and the teacher and the law enforcement folks basically

00:43:28.217 --> 00:43:33.677
sent him to Oakley because he threw like a, a paper ball at the teacher or something.

00:43:34.417 --> 00:43:37.377
And you know was like why we were

00:43:37.377 --> 00:43:40.397
hearing stories like that was like why is this kid just

00:43:40.397 --> 00:43:43.577
like like given detention or or

00:43:43.577 --> 00:43:46.437
you know extra homework why is this kid being sent to

00:43:46.437 --> 00:43:50.577
oakley where we would have to provide him with education while he was there

00:43:50.577 --> 00:43:56.397
and it was like usually they had to stay there for like 90 days so for three

00:43:56.397 --> 00:44:01.337
months this 10 year old is there instead of in their regular the classroom or

00:44:01.337 --> 00:44:05.977
their parents dealing with them discipline-wise right so yeah it was a.

00:44:07.110 --> 00:44:11.510
You know, that's why it's such a blessing to have people like you that's committed

00:44:11.510 --> 00:44:13.350
to trying to fix these things.

00:44:13.850 --> 00:44:18.590
Well, I appreciate, Erik, there is a white elephant or brown or pink elephant,

00:44:18.750 --> 00:44:22.390
whatever preferable color is in the room.

00:44:22.490 --> 00:44:27.170
I would like to say head on, in case there's any listener who's saying,

00:44:27.430 --> 00:44:32.170
who gets stuck on the whole color thing and said, well, isn't it just because

00:44:32.170 --> 00:44:36.670
black people commit more crimes than white people?

00:44:36.670 --> 00:44:40.830
And the fallacy in that is that, well, what you're saying is that people commit

00:44:40.830 --> 00:44:43.590
crimes merely because of the color of their skin, okay?

00:44:44.190 --> 00:44:48.490
That's a ridiculous notion. I don't know even how to begin a conversation with

00:44:48.490 --> 00:44:49.710
somebody who thinks that way.

00:44:49.850 --> 00:44:53.210
So, for those who are listening, that's where you're starting.

00:44:53.330 --> 00:44:58.030
I don't think you're really doing a lot of good self-reflection in your thoughts, okay?

00:44:58.510 --> 00:45:02.550
Because you're just thinking too linearly here, okay?

00:45:03.490 --> 00:45:09.690
But, you know, people tend to commit crimes because of their circumstances Okay, all right.

00:45:10.711 --> 00:45:14.111
And that elephant in the room is

00:45:14.111 --> 00:45:21.471
that we are never really going to eliminate the racial disparities in this country

00:45:21.471 --> 00:45:28.171
until we deal with the underlying social structural conditions that continue

00:45:28.171 --> 00:45:34.011
to impede people of color from, you know,

00:45:34.231 --> 00:45:36.431
moving forward in a positive way.

00:45:36.431 --> 00:45:43.631
And a good example of that is just the recent Supreme Court decision on the gerrymandering, okay?

00:45:44.051 --> 00:45:49.631
And the whole false narrative of President Trump saying it was the Civil Rights

00:45:49.631 --> 00:45:54.451
Act and movement that has hurt white people. That floored me.

00:45:54.691 --> 00:46:00.371
That floored me, okay? I don't know, but I don't want to go down a tangent here,

00:46:00.531 --> 00:46:06.611
but that's the problem is that what we've done is we flipped civil rights on its head.

00:46:07.191 --> 00:46:14.611
Okay. And we've turned it into where now people are being penalized because,

00:46:15.051 --> 00:46:22.411
like me, who advocate that, you know, we need to be working to reduce racial disparities.

00:46:23.411 --> 00:46:26.231
But when there's a false narrative as if they don't

00:46:26.231 --> 00:46:32.931
even exist at all okay and and of course they do so my my thing i would end

00:46:32.931 --> 00:46:37.831
up saying here is that we need to start looking at poverty in a different way

00:46:37.831 --> 00:46:43.951
okay because you know when you take any you know any group.

00:46:44.992 --> 00:46:49.732
And you've enslaved him for 300 plus years. And then once you end slavery,

00:46:49.912 --> 00:46:51.512
you think it's over with, but it's not.

00:46:51.672 --> 00:46:55.712
It's just another form of institution called Jim Crow laws.

00:46:56.432 --> 00:47:04.592
You know, I mean, in my lifetime, I saw, you know, Negro only, okay, white only.

00:47:05.152 --> 00:47:10.472
You know, I saw a cross burned in Georgia in my hometown, okay,

00:47:11.052 --> 00:47:15.632
you know, where the KKK met. I saw the KKK out on the corner.

00:47:15.852 --> 00:47:19.732
Don't tell me that this is old, okay?

00:47:20.072 --> 00:47:26.592
You know, it's just been suppressed because it got to a point that it was no

00:47:26.592 --> 00:47:32.072
longer beneficial for the racists to be out loud with it.

00:47:32.172 --> 00:47:36.692
They just simply suppressed it. And in my opinion, with the rhetoric of this

00:47:36.692 --> 00:47:43.032
administration beginning in 2017 has made empowered racists to come out. Okay.

00:47:43.452 --> 00:47:47.012
And this is what we're seeing right now. And it's going to take some time to

00:47:47.012 --> 00:47:50.712
undo all this ridiculous false narrative.

00:47:51.372 --> 00:47:55.552
Anyway, I'm sorry. I get it. Well, no, but, but, you know, that was,

00:47:55.672 --> 00:47:59.892
that was kind of the, the question I was going to get, you know,

00:48:00.292 --> 00:48:03.612
away from the juvenile justice conversation because you, you,

00:48:03.772 --> 00:48:08.732
on your substat, you've been focusing on the issue of neutrality and DEI.

00:48:08.972 --> 00:48:15.232
So in light of the recent Callais decision, does that fall into the category of

00:48:15.232 --> 00:48:18.072
colorblindness becoming context blindness?

00:48:20.292 --> 00:48:26.412
Absolutely. Absolutely. When I hear the word, you know, colorblindness,

00:48:26.412 --> 00:48:32.892
while it's trying to be narrated as something good, okay,

00:48:33.552 --> 00:48:37.172
in fact, it's not good because,

00:48:38.601 --> 00:48:45.821
No, to be the risk of saying you're color blinded assumes that there is no issue

00:48:45.821 --> 00:48:52.921
of racial disparities, that there are disparities for bad and poor reasons. It assumes that.

00:48:53.141 --> 00:48:56.461
It's okay to be color blinded if we didn't have those issues,

00:48:56.841 --> 00:49:03.641
that those forms of still decisions being made in employment and hiring and

00:49:03.641 --> 00:49:09.841
so forth that are really based on implicit bias in color or.

00:49:11.288 --> 00:49:16.908
In fact, because they really are racist. We just don't know it because they're not saying it out loud.

00:49:17.308 --> 00:49:21.848
It's what I used to call it, before the phrase implicit bias came in,

00:49:21.928 --> 00:49:23.568
I used to call it subtle discrimination.

00:49:24.228 --> 00:49:29.548
But I picked up the implicit bias, it's a lot better in its description.

00:49:30.308 --> 00:49:38.428
But the word color blinded, to be color blinded, where there are systems in which

00:49:38.428 --> 00:49:43.828
there is still discrimination is hurtful because now you're going to be blinded to that stuff.

00:49:44.108 --> 00:49:48.828
You will have no reason to look for it because I'm color blinded.

00:49:49.488 --> 00:49:54.268
I'm color blinded. I don't see color. Okay. Well, wait a minute.

00:49:55.468 --> 00:50:00.068
I'm assuming that is true for you. Other people do, and they're making decisions

00:50:00.068 --> 00:50:03.568
based upon the color of one's skin, okay?

00:50:04.128 --> 00:50:11.228
And that's what's scary about the assumption that, I mean, think about it for a moment, okay?

00:50:11.748 --> 00:50:16.808
The Voting Rights Act, Section 2, that targeted the Southern states because

00:50:16.808 --> 00:50:21.828
of the history of Jim Crow in the Southern states, where, you know,

00:50:22.008 --> 00:50:25.048
the Department of Justice had to approve,

00:50:25.788 --> 00:50:33.608
okay, when a congressional district was gerrymandered to ensure that it wasn't,

00:50:33.688 --> 00:50:36.748
there was no racially motivated, okay?

00:50:36.948 --> 00:50:41.648
Well, we know, not in this recent one, but the one before the Supreme Court got rid of that.

00:50:42.248 --> 00:50:47.168
Now, with this whole thing about, you know, changing the whole thing,

00:50:47.488 --> 00:50:52.968
that it's actually discriminatory to have your majority-minority type of districts.

00:50:52.988 --> 00:50:59.448
Well, think about that. What's the first thing we've had three or four southern states do already?

00:51:00.585 --> 00:51:05.625
They do they're white they're wiping out the african

00:51:05.625 --> 00:51:08.565
majority ones they're they're doing exactly what

00:51:08.565 --> 00:51:11.305
we all knew they were going to do which is why we had the

00:51:11.305 --> 00:51:17.685
section two in the first place they're proving the supreme court wrong by their

00:51:17.685 --> 00:51:23.225
actions well now not only the section two but section five because see section

00:51:23.225 --> 00:51:28.545
five was kind of like the buff it was like you you you got this crazy idea that

00:51:28.545 --> 00:51:30.605
you want to split up Memphis three ways,

00:51:30.765 --> 00:51:33.445
well, you got to send it to us and let us assess it.

00:51:34.025 --> 00:51:37.705
And, you know, if we think that doesn't cut mustard, you know, try again.

00:51:37.925 --> 00:51:43.625
So once the robber's court in 2013 with Shelby got rid of, you know,

00:51:43.685 --> 00:51:47.705
the preclearance part, then it was already Katie Bartador anyway.

00:51:48.185 --> 00:51:51.825
And it was just a matter of time. It took them 13 years, but it was It was a

00:51:51.825 --> 00:51:55.965
matter of time before they decided, okay, now we're going to,

00:51:56.005 --> 00:51:59.765
you know, just end section two altogether, too.

00:51:59.985 --> 00:52:02.965
So, yeah, it was like, no, you weren't going down a rabbit hole.

00:52:03.205 --> 00:52:06.365
You were actually coming to where I wanted to come. You got a little sooner

00:52:06.365 --> 00:52:10.145
because I got one more question to ask you concerning juvenile justice.

00:52:10.305 --> 00:52:13.205
And it's really two questions, but I'm combining it into one.

00:52:14.305 --> 00:52:19.665
In 2012, you said, let's face it, the practice of juvenile justice has not worked

00:52:19.665 --> 00:52:24.305
for the most part. You cited that there were a lack of services available for youth.

00:52:24.585 --> 00:52:30.025
Judges were incentivized to overcommit and youth were with mental health disorders

00:52:30.025 --> 00:52:32.865
were dumped into the juvenile justice system.

00:52:33.245 --> 00:52:41.685
So, one, 14 years later, what progress have you seen made and what will it take

00:52:41.685 --> 00:52:44.965
to drastically achieve true juvenile justice reform?

00:52:46.091 --> 00:52:54.511
That's a good question. I am a proud member, now a lifetime member,

00:52:54.551 --> 00:53:00.711
of the National Council of Juvenile Family Court Judges, having served on their board of directors.

00:53:01.271 --> 00:53:05.591
And that council and its leadership...

00:53:07.373 --> 00:53:14.233
Has embraced evidence-based practices and has embraced the fact that, you know,

00:53:14.813 --> 00:53:19.953
juvenile justice systems need help, okay, that there are too many kids of color

00:53:19.953 --> 00:53:26.253
that are being just escorted right into the juvenile justice system and detention

00:53:26.253 --> 00:53:29.093
and being treated, you know, as adults.

00:53:29.553 --> 00:53:35.873
The irony here is that it was in way back after the Juvenile Justice Delinquency

00:53:35.873 --> 00:53:38.493
Prevention Act was passing has four core protections.

00:53:38.713 --> 00:53:43.653
And one of those protections, you know, is, you know, is, is to,

00:53:43.893 --> 00:53:47.293
you know, forbid the criminalization of status offenders.

00:53:47.533 --> 00:53:50.873
And for your listeners, those are the ones who, those are the kids,

00:53:50.973 --> 00:53:53.793
you know, they didn't commit a delinquent act, but they're the,

00:53:53.893 --> 00:53:57.673
one of the POA kids I described earlier. Okay. The piss off adult kids.

00:53:58.293 --> 00:54:03.613
And so the, the rule was that if they could be detained, it was,

00:54:03.833 --> 00:54:07.153
you know, no more than 24 hours they had to be released.

00:54:08.293 --> 00:54:12.093
Well, it was the National Council of Journalism and Family Court judges that

00:54:12.093 --> 00:54:16.473
lobbied Congress to create a bootstrap where,

00:54:16.673 --> 00:54:18.913
okay, if they're put on an order of supervision they violated,

00:54:19.053 --> 00:54:24.273
then they can be treated like a delinquent kid and now can be held longer. Okay.

00:54:25.093 --> 00:54:29.953
That caused a lot of problems. That made matters worse. We then started criminalizing

00:54:29.953 --> 00:54:34.913
what otherwise are status kids who just simply need to grow up a little bit

00:54:34.913 --> 00:54:39.973
more, mature a little bit more, and never would have gone on to commit any delinquent acts, okay?

00:54:40.853 --> 00:54:45.973
This National Council, though, several years ago, all right, passed a resolution.

00:54:47.631 --> 00:54:55.591
Was asked to write an article called the dichotomy of judicial leadership.

00:54:56.551 --> 00:55:01.551
And I talked to the judges and I said, what type of judge do you want to be?

00:55:02.071 --> 00:55:08.271
Do you want to be the judge who, okay, isn't going to lock up these status offenders

00:55:08.271 --> 00:55:11.191
and work with them? And sure, they may run away still.

00:55:11.731 --> 00:55:14.811
And they may end up running away and get hurt. I get that.

00:55:14.971 --> 00:55:19.771
Or do you want to be the judge who locks them up, teaches them to be criminal,

00:55:19.931 --> 00:55:22.651
who then goes on to victimize innocent people?

00:55:23.271 --> 00:55:26.191
Which judge do you want to be? Okay.

00:55:27.351 --> 00:55:32.851
That was written for the purpose of a council meeting to vote on this resolution.

00:55:33.051 --> 00:55:37.151
A copy was provided. I'm not saying that that's influenced them to do that.

00:55:37.251 --> 00:55:38.731
That's not what I'm Okay.

00:55:39.011 --> 00:55:42.951
But I am offering that. That's how important this resolution was.

00:55:43.131 --> 00:55:46.031
And what people behind the scenes, like Coalition for Juvenile Justice,

00:55:46.171 --> 00:55:48.811
asked me to write this article, get it published.

00:55:49.171 --> 00:55:52.651
They did vote to change it. And they lobbied Congress.

00:55:53.091 --> 00:55:59.391
And in the reauthorization of Juvenile Justice Delinquency Prevention Act, they got it removed.

00:55:59.391 --> 00:56:02.551
I share that story because

00:56:02.551 --> 00:56:09.771
it's that type of leadership in this country that we are seeing more juvenile

00:56:09.771 --> 00:56:17.031
justice systems at the local level that are implementing the types of evidence-based

00:56:17.031 --> 00:56:21.111
practices to reduce racial disparities,

00:56:21.111 --> 00:56:24.811
to ensure that kids are treated,

00:56:25.151 --> 00:56:29.251
are assessed appropriately to determine what are the underlying criminogenic

00:56:29.251 --> 00:56:33.371
factors, the reasons why this child is doing what this child is doing.

00:56:33.551 --> 00:56:36.711
Now, let's take what we know about.

00:56:37.810 --> 00:56:43.750
This kid's underlying criminogenic factors, what programs do we have out there

00:56:43.750 --> 00:56:48.330
that have been studied, they are evidence-based, and target that kid with those

00:56:48.330 --> 00:56:52.110
programs that change things around in this kid's life.

00:56:52.250 --> 00:56:57.370
And we also know that it involves the family in particular, that we need the

00:56:57.370 --> 00:56:58.670
parents involved in this.

00:56:58.850 --> 00:57:04.350
Hence why we have, you know, MST, multisystemic therapy, family functional therapy,

00:57:04.630 --> 00:57:08.530
things that I brought into my court. What a difference it made, Eric.

00:57:08.970 --> 00:57:14.570
I mean, it made a big difference. We were able to reduce commitments to the state significantly.

00:57:14.730 --> 00:57:17.870
Did our crime rates go up? No, they went down.

00:57:18.390 --> 00:57:25.530
Okay. That's why so many people ask me and my team to travel the country because I'm in Clayton County.

00:57:25.930 --> 00:57:29.350
Clayton County is like the poorest county in all Metro Atlanta. Okay.

00:57:29.670 --> 00:57:33.570
All right. You know, we're the ones who are supposed to have the higher juvenile

00:57:33.570 --> 00:57:35.850
crime rates, but ours was going down.

00:57:36.150 --> 00:57:41.770
And they wanted to know why. And researchers came in, I'm looking over here,

00:57:41.990 --> 00:57:46.130
there's a book called A Handbook for Evidence-Based Juvenile Justice Systems, okay?

00:57:46.610 --> 00:57:52.550
Clayton County's right in it, okay? So, to sum up, you know,

00:57:52.730 --> 00:57:56.890
we got to get out of the traditional thinking, the linear thinking,

00:57:57.110 --> 00:58:01.090
okay, that some people make, whether it's like I said earlier.

00:58:01.790 --> 00:58:04.430
Those who say, well, maybe black people commit crimes because,

00:58:04.430 --> 00:58:08.030
you know, of the color of their skin and how ridiculous that is. No, no.

00:58:08.610 --> 00:58:14.150
Come on, folks, okay? We got to look at every kid on a case-by-case basis.

00:58:14.330 --> 00:58:17.950
We have to assess every kid. We need to do what's inconvenient.

00:58:18.230 --> 00:58:21.590
We need to create juvenile justice systems that are inconvenient,

00:58:21.590 --> 00:58:26.230
not for the kids, but for the people who work the juvenile justice system, okay?

00:58:26.850 --> 00:58:28.930
Because my mama told me if she was right.

00:58:30.706 --> 00:58:35.486
When I come home from school, my mom would say, why are you doing it this way?

00:58:35.526 --> 00:58:36.866
And I would say it's the easy way.

00:58:37.066 --> 00:58:43.066
Oh, son, son, do you know the convenient, the easy way is usually not the right way?

00:58:43.586 --> 00:58:48.306
And that's the work of juvenile justice. That's the work of any type of criminal

00:58:48.306 --> 00:58:51.946
justice or juvenile justice reform to make things work.

00:58:51.946 --> 00:58:55.386
If we really want the outcomes that's going to improve public safety,

00:58:55.526 --> 00:59:00.306
if we really care, We're going to do the things that are the most inconvenient.

00:59:01.900 --> 00:59:06.340
Oh, yeah. All right. So I'm doing this with my guest to close out.

00:59:06.740 --> 00:59:09.800
Finish this sentence. I have hope because.

00:59:09.800 --> 00:59:18.540
I have hope because I have seen,

00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:23.400
as I mentioned a moment ago, with my

00:59:23.400 --> 00:59:27.000
involvement in the National Council of Jewel Family Court Judges and the leadership

00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:34.220
of the National Council and the training they're providing to judges across

00:59:34.220 --> 00:59:39.460
this country who are now exercising their judicial leadership.

00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:43.280
Because the emphasis is by the council has been on judicial leadership.

00:59:43.700 --> 00:59:47.940
You know, I've often said and have written about it that, you know,

00:59:48.040 --> 00:59:52.400
the due process that I must give on the bench,

00:59:52.720 --> 00:59:58.700
okay, is the quality of is dependent on the work I do off the bench.

00:59:59.340 --> 01:00:03.600
If I'm going to fashion an order to put a kid on probation and say,

01:00:03.700 --> 01:00:08.660
I want him to go to this particular program, well, I'd better know about that program.

01:00:09.300 --> 01:00:13.200
I shouldn't be put anything in that order unless I know that's a successful

01:00:13.200 --> 01:00:18.580
program That I am, I'm increasing the odds that this kid is going to do better because of that program.

01:00:19.460 --> 01:00:23.940
If I have to put a kid in detention, have I been down to the detention center?

01:00:24.300 --> 01:00:25.960
Have I seen what it's like?

01:00:26.520 --> 01:00:30.560
Have I talked to the kids there? Do I know that they're treating them well?

01:00:30.640 --> 01:00:34.840
Because if I haven't done that, then shame on me That's negligence as a judge.

01:00:36.018 --> 01:00:39.898
Because the buck stops with me, like Truman said. My name's on that order.

01:00:40.018 --> 01:00:42.398
I'm ultimately responsible. I can't blame detention.

01:00:42.658 --> 01:00:47.118
I can't blame probation. I can't blame the Department of Juvenile Justice if I commit a kid there.

01:00:47.738 --> 01:00:53.458
I need to know whether what I'm doing is going to be safe for that kid and better for that kid.

01:00:53.778 --> 01:01:00.518
But there are more and more judges that we see because of folks like the world's

01:01:00.518 --> 01:01:05.878
largest judges council in the world out of Reno is building that type of leadership.

01:01:06.018 --> 01:01:10.458
And more judges are stepping out and not afraid to step out.

01:01:11.178 --> 01:01:20.438
That is the hope that I have based upon what I see and hear from my colleagues.

01:01:20.438 --> 01:01:27.678
That's a growing number who it's no longer where it used to be. Like I felt lonely.

01:01:27.978 --> 01:01:30.838
Erik, I don't feel so lonely anymore.

01:01:31.478 --> 01:01:35.778
Amen. Judge Teske, how can people get in touch with you? How can they follow

01:01:35.778 --> 01:01:39.218
you? Go ahead and just let people know.

01:01:40.078 --> 01:01:44.718
Yeah, sure. So, you know, I'm an open book, okay?

01:01:44.918 --> 01:01:53.518
If it's an email, it's S-C-T-E-S-K-E-Law at Outlook.com. That's simple.

01:01:54.458 --> 01:01:58.918
You know, I have no problem with you. Bess, if you text me, though,

01:01:59.138 --> 01:02:03.418
my number is 404-754-9071.

01:02:03.878 --> 01:02:08.218
If you have a question, because if you call me, if I'm not familiar with the

01:02:08.218 --> 01:02:11.338
number, I got to be careful, right? Okay, but it's best if you text me.

01:02:12.078 --> 01:02:15.058
And that's what I do with my college students that I teach.

01:02:15.358 --> 01:02:19.938
Now, you mentioned Substack, so it would be Steven with a V as in Victor,

01:02:20.538 --> 01:02:25.898
Teske, all one word, StevenTeske.Substack.com.

01:02:25.998 --> 01:02:31.798
Okay, you'll get both podcast as well as podcast versions of my written essays. Okay.

01:02:31.978 --> 01:02:35.258
Right now I'm doing a series on in defense of DEI. Okay.

01:02:36.640 --> 01:02:39.460
Also have another podcast a little different angles called the

01:02:39.460 --> 01:02:42.600
Teske brief it's a youtube channel okay so

01:02:42.600 --> 01:02:47.200
if you just go ahead and google the Teske brief it'll it'll it'll it'll it'll

01:02:47.200 --> 01:02:53.040
take you there and and you can just subscribe it's like any video bottom right

01:02:53.040 --> 01:02:58.220
hand corner hit that subscribe button and just as you can with my substact and

01:02:58.220 --> 01:03:02.540
then as i publish them they'll be dropped into your email or on your phone if it's the YouTube.

01:03:03.040 --> 01:03:06.760
So that's pretty much it, Erik.

01:03:07.300 --> 01:03:10.880
Well, Judge Steve Teske, let me just say thank you.

01:03:11.100 --> 01:03:17.420
One, for coming on the podcast and two, for dedicating your life to the work

01:03:17.420 --> 01:03:22.020
that you've done with juvenile justice and also in other aspects of the law.

01:03:24.700 --> 01:03:29.260
One of the cool things about this podcast is that I get to highlight people.

01:03:29.580 --> 01:03:32.780
Some have already been highlighted on the national level and all that,

01:03:32.880 --> 01:03:37.180
but it's my personal privilege to highlight folks to my listeners that are really,

01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:41.980
really trying to make things better for all of us, and especially somebody that's

01:03:41.980 --> 01:03:47.040
trying to make it better for our children, even when they might go a little astray.

01:03:47.320 --> 01:03:52.440
So I just personally thank you for the work that you've done and that you continue to do.

01:03:52.540 --> 01:03:56.280
And again, thank you for coming on the show. I appreciate that, Erik.

01:03:56.420 --> 01:04:02.140
And I appreciate your show and the way that you do highlight the good work of

01:04:02.140 --> 01:04:05.820
people. And it's been an honor to have this conversation with you.

01:04:06.080 --> 01:04:07.720
All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all.

01:04:27.764 --> 01:04:34.304
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Dr. Jessica Kriegel.

01:04:34.644 --> 01:04:40.244
Jessica Kriegel is a workplace culture expert, keynote speaker, and researcher.

01:04:40.684 --> 01:04:46.424
As chief strategy officer of Culture Partners, she leads research that challenges

01:04:46.424 --> 01:04:52.144
outdated ideas about control, power, and performance, offering bold new frameworks

01:04:52.144 --> 01:04:54.124
that drive real business results.

01:04:54.124 --> 01:05:00.824
She's the host of the CEO Daily Brief and Culture Leaders podcast and a frequent

01:05:00.824 --> 01:05:04.604
guest on CNN, Fox Business, CNBC, and Bloomberg.

01:05:05.484 --> 01:05:10.424
Jessica holds an MBA and a doctorate in leadership with a specialization in

01:05:10.424 --> 01:05:11.784
human resources development.

01:05:12.024 --> 01:05:17.464
She is currently pursuing a Master of Divinity and is also a trained deaf doula,

01:05:17.664 --> 01:05:20.964
a role that deepens her presence and perspective as a leader.

01:05:20.964 --> 01:05:26.124
Her first book, Unfairly Labeled, breaks down generational myths in the workplace.

01:05:26.424 --> 01:05:34.424
Her current book, Surrender to Lead, was launched in January of 2026.

01:05:34.784 --> 01:05:38.524
When she's not doing all that, she's cruising around Sacramento,

01:05:38.664 --> 01:05:42.624
California, on a motorcycle sidecar with her eight-year-old daughter.

01:05:42.904 --> 01:05:47.304
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

01:05:47.304 --> 01:05:50.424
on this podcast, Dr. Jessica Kriegel.

01:06:01.427 --> 01:06:06.547
All right. Dr. Jessica Kriegel. How are you doing, ma'am? You doing good?

01:06:07.187 --> 01:06:11.527
I'm doing good. How are you? I'm doing lovely. I'm really, really honored that

01:06:11.527 --> 01:06:13.467
you accepted my invitation to come on.

01:06:14.327 --> 01:06:20.247
I know that you're one of those people, especially in the business community, that's in high demand.

01:06:21.767 --> 01:06:27.187
And I guess the challenge, if it is a challenge for somebody as smart as you,

01:06:27.607 --> 01:06:32.847
is we're going to have this discussion about some of the things that you teach

01:06:32.847 --> 01:06:36.527
and write about, but kind of put it in a political context.

01:06:37.087 --> 01:06:42.487
Okay. Yeah. And so, because this is supposedly a political show,

01:06:42.707 --> 01:06:46.347
sometimes I think it's more of a doom and gloom show where things are going

01:06:46.347 --> 01:06:49.047
here in America, but we're hanging in there.

01:06:51.047 --> 01:06:56.747
Yeah, I know, right? So normally what I do is I do a couple of icebreaker things

01:06:56.747 --> 01:06:58.867
to kind of get the conversation going.

01:06:59.367 --> 01:07:02.707
And the first is I want you to respond to this quote.

01:07:03.087 --> 01:07:08.767
The more I've experienced with life, I'm like, I don't know crap.

01:07:10.228 --> 01:07:15.568
Yeah. Amen. That is how I feel. And I'm grateful for that experience.

01:07:16.088 --> 01:07:23.528
The more I feel like I don't know, the more humble I am being and the more on track to truth I feel.

01:07:23.668 --> 01:07:28.168
Because I remember being young and knowing everything.

01:07:28.568 --> 01:07:33.708
And I look back on that with 2020 vision now, 2020 in quotes,

01:07:33.888 --> 01:07:38.188
I'm being funny, and realizing how ignorant I was.

01:07:38.188 --> 01:07:43.448
And so, I mean, that also goes not to make it religious or spiritual in nature,

01:07:43.528 --> 01:07:45.468
but that also goes for my belief in God.

01:07:45.628 --> 01:07:49.948
The less I understand it, the more I feel like I am close to it.

01:07:50.448 --> 01:07:55.168
Because if I can put it in a box, label it and say it's exactly this and nothing

01:07:55.168 --> 01:07:57.068
else, well, then it's not a higher power.

01:07:57.208 --> 01:07:59.588
I've put it in a little box. It's a lower power, you know?

01:07:59.988 --> 01:08:07.248
So, amen. Yeah, I relate to that because, you know, when I was elected,

01:08:07.268 --> 01:08:10.588
I was fairly young. I was in my 30s when I was elected.

01:08:11.740 --> 01:08:17.280
And now I look back at my life and I'm like going, God, I was really kind of

01:08:17.280 --> 01:08:19.420
winging it a little bit. I thought I knew a lot.

01:08:19.820 --> 01:08:25.520
You know, I had studied all my life is what I went to school for and, you know, my passion.

01:08:25.800 --> 01:08:29.300
And then I look back now, you know, years later, I'm like going,

01:08:29.660 --> 01:08:32.080
you know, I could have done this. I shouldn't have done that.

01:08:33.200 --> 01:08:36.280
So, you know, I think all of us go through that.

01:08:37.660 --> 01:08:42.820
Yeah. And I will say I'm a keynote speaker. I've been keynoting for 12 years now.

01:08:42.960 --> 01:08:48.540
And if I look back at the keynotes I gave just last year, I'm embarrassed by them.

01:08:48.840 --> 01:08:52.540
And last year, if I looked at the year before that, I was embarrassed by those.

01:08:52.680 --> 01:08:57.720
But every time I've given a keynote, I've been really proud of myself for how good I'm doing.

01:08:57.980 --> 01:09:01.160
And so, yeah, next year I'm going to be embarrassed by what I'm doing right

01:09:01.160 --> 01:09:03.820
now, even though right now I come off the stage and I think I'm nailing it.

01:09:04.320 --> 01:09:09.760
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think all of us that have had that experience in public

01:09:09.760 --> 01:09:14.860
speaking, it's like when you're making that speech, you've done your notes and

01:09:14.860 --> 01:09:17.880
it's like, and you feel like the audience got it.

01:09:18.320 --> 01:09:21.980
Yeah. And then when you look back, it's like, did I really have to talk that

01:09:21.980 --> 01:09:26.120
long? Why did I put out, you know? Yeah. So I definitely. Exactly.

01:09:26.800 --> 01:09:29.760
All right. So now the next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions.

01:09:30.440 --> 01:09:33.500
So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

01:09:34.260 --> 01:09:35.720
18. All right.

01:09:37.064 --> 01:09:41.524
What is one thing we might all agree is important no matter our differences?

01:09:42.584 --> 01:09:47.104
Oof. I have wondered this. I remember first thinking this in third grade.

01:09:47.264 --> 01:09:50.524
I was in elementary school thinking, is there one thing we can all agree on?

01:09:51.704 --> 01:09:57.004
And I think where I've landed is nothing because there's always going to be that oddball.

01:09:57.184 --> 01:10:02.224
There's always going to be that sociopath or that complete insane person who

01:10:02.224 --> 01:10:05.464
will not get on board with what feels very logical.

01:10:05.464 --> 01:10:10.664
I think politically, since this is a political show, I think right now the left

01:10:10.664 --> 01:10:12.504
and the right are a lot closer than they seem.

01:10:13.044 --> 01:10:18.144
And I believe that a new sort of third party is emerging that is more focused

01:10:18.144 --> 01:10:22.604
on the American people, on the economic situation and maybe foreign policy.

01:10:22.604 --> 01:10:28.464
So I do believe that we are more united than they would want you to believe

01:10:28.464 --> 01:10:33.564
at this time, to make a counter argument to my first response.

01:10:33.564 --> 01:10:38.484
Well, I just had a guest on last week, and he would be glad to hear you say

01:10:38.484 --> 01:10:43.944
that, because that's one of his missions is trying to build the momentum for

01:10:43.944 --> 01:10:46.364
a third party here in the United States. I think...

01:10:47.390 --> 01:10:53.170
I think it's due, but it's so hard to do that. But yeah, I think you're right.

01:10:53.330 --> 01:10:57.590
I think people have more in common than what they believe in.

01:10:57.670 --> 01:11:01.790
And one of the things I used to tell folks about my experience in the legislature

01:11:01.790 --> 01:11:08.090
was that what makes the news, what we disagree on, might only be like 5% of

01:11:08.090 --> 01:11:09.830
the agenda we deal with that session.

01:11:10.210 --> 01:11:14.310
Because the majority of the time, we're just pushing that yes button. Yeah, yeah.

01:11:14.550 --> 01:11:18.310
You know, once somebody makes the case, we're like, Yeah, that makes sense.

01:11:18.490 --> 01:11:24.510
And we vote for it. It's the stuff that we don't agree on that everybody pays

01:11:24.510 --> 01:11:29.030
attention to. Yeah, it's the cultural stuff and the identity politics.

01:11:29.030 --> 01:11:32.110
And that feels so personal.

01:11:32.350 --> 01:11:38.110
And so the animosity around that and the vitriol around that is much more escalated.

01:11:38.110 --> 01:11:39.330
And so it gets more clicks.

01:11:39.630 --> 01:11:44.670
And so therefore, it feels like it's the most important thing for everyone because

01:11:44.670 --> 01:11:46.230
it's talked about the most.

01:11:46.490 --> 01:11:53.550
And in reality, I think there's a lot that is important and that we agree upon

01:11:53.550 --> 01:11:55.370
that just doesn't get clicks. Yeah.

01:11:56.290 --> 01:11:59.910
All right. For starters, I'm going to do I'm going to flip something that you

01:11:59.910 --> 01:12:04.290
do on the podcast. So I'm going to flip it and ask you, what is your why?

01:12:05.590 --> 01:12:11.750
Thank you. That is the first question I ask on my podcast. And my why is to serve God and others.

01:12:12.370 --> 01:12:15.390
I like to keep it simple. If I'm serving God and I'm serving others,

01:12:15.570 --> 01:12:19.570
then I'm doing something that's aligned with what I see is fulfilling my purpose.

01:12:20.725 --> 01:12:23.745
Simple to the point because that that if you if you're serving

01:12:23.745 --> 01:12:26.485
god and i also happen to be a

01:12:26.485 --> 01:12:29.285
christian as well i i you know i think

01:12:29.285 --> 01:12:32.565
that that really does encompass everything if

01:12:32.565 --> 01:12:36.665
if that's your that's your north star that's your focus you

01:12:36.665 --> 01:12:43.285
know but as we know god can take us down some very interesting trails that we

01:12:43.285 --> 01:12:48.485
didn't think we would be navigating yeah you once said that i I learned the

01:12:48.485 --> 01:12:53.105
hard way that control has a ceiling, but surrender has no limits.

01:12:54.285 --> 01:13:02.105
You can't force extraordinary outcomes, but you can create the conditions where they happen naturally.

01:13:02.225 --> 01:13:06.765
So what is this concept about surrendering to lead?

01:13:08.005 --> 01:13:12.085
So we wake up every morning,

01:13:12.665 --> 01:13:16.565
you know, the high, when I say we, the high achievers, the people pursuing the

01:13:16.565 --> 01:13:22.045
American dream, the executives, the politicians, the folks who are moving the

01:13:22.045 --> 01:13:24.365
world forward, they wake up every morning and they're wondering,

01:13:24.505 --> 01:13:25.445
what can I achieve today?

01:13:25.445 --> 01:13:28.925
What is it that I'm going to progress the ball forward on?

01:13:29.385 --> 01:13:33.305
And we want to get a result. We have a dream. We have some outcome.

01:13:33.885 --> 01:13:40.705
And we know that all results come from you taking action or the team taking

01:13:40.705 --> 01:13:42.725
action. Action leads to results.

01:13:43.145 --> 01:13:46.245
And that is where a lot of people stop their thinking.

01:13:46.645 --> 01:13:49.905
They know that results come from actions. And so then they focus on actions.

01:13:50.005 --> 01:13:52.445
What do I got to do to get the result? What do I got to do to get the result?

01:13:52.445 --> 01:13:55.605
And when you're a leader, that looks like, what do you have to do to get the

01:13:55.605 --> 01:13:57.505
result? Here's what you have to do to get the result.

01:13:57.665 --> 01:14:00.885
Are you doing the thing in order to get the result? And that is the control

01:14:00.885 --> 01:14:03.485
dynamic. It's the command and control leadership style.

01:14:03.765 --> 01:14:06.905
And it is incredibly limiting. It does work to some extent.

01:14:07.145 --> 01:14:10.965
That's why it's seductive. You see progress being made when you focus on what

01:14:10.965 --> 01:14:12.725
actions need to be taken to get the result.

01:14:13.025 --> 01:14:15.965
But it does limit you. That's what I mean by control has a ceiling,

01:14:15.965 --> 01:14:21.405
because when you control what other people are doing, you remove their creative

01:14:21.405 --> 01:14:23.345
input from the equation.

01:14:23.345 --> 01:14:28.245
They follow instructions. You've you've limited their best thinking to your thinking.

01:14:28.685 --> 01:14:33.525
So going back to the very first quote you shared with me is the less you don't

01:14:33.525 --> 01:14:38.925
know everything and the collective intelligence of the team might be more powerful. Yeah.

01:14:39.522 --> 01:14:44.922
That's one way of thinking it. But really, where this unlocks for people and

01:14:44.922 --> 01:14:49.142
where they realize the power of surrender is when you understand that people

01:14:49.142 --> 01:14:52.202
will take action based on the beliefs that they hold,

01:14:52.642 --> 01:14:54.882
not based on what you've told them to do.

01:14:55.022 --> 01:14:57.822
I mean, you as a politician will understand this more than anyone.

01:14:58.022 --> 01:15:00.822
You can't just tell people what to do and they're going to magically do it.

01:15:00.962 --> 01:15:03.042
They will act in alignment with what they believe.

01:15:03.662 --> 01:15:06.622
And so if you want them to take action so that you can get a result,

01:15:06.802 --> 01:15:11.922
the best use of your time and energy is on understanding what their beliefs

01:15:11.922 --> 01:15:16.002
are and how you can impact shifting those beliefs.

01:15:16.522 --> 01:15:21.562
And people's beliefs shift based on the experiences that they've had.

01:15:21.742 --> 01:15:23.602
All of our beliefs come from experiences.

01:15:24.122 --> 01:15:27.822
And so if you want people to believe something different, you've got to create

01:15:27.822 --> 01:15:31.062
a new experience for them that will shift that belief.

01:15:31.062 --> 01:15:34.542
And that is what you as a leader can do is instead of focusing on what do I

01:15:34.542 --> 01:15:38.962
need and what can I get people to do, which is a very inward focused mentality,

01:15:39.262 --> 01:15:44.702
it's how can I show up and what experience can I create for those around me

01:15:44.702 --> 01:15:48.622
that may impact the beliefs they hold, which may lead them to take new action,

01:15:48.622 --> 01:15:51.822
which will help us get the result that I'm working towards.

01:15:51.822 --> 01:15:57.162
It's a different way of approaching driving results, and it unlocks the potential.

01:15:57.322 --> 01:15:59.762
We did research with this with Stanford Graduate Business School.

01:16:00.002 --> 01:16:05.342
The companies that use the surrendered approach, they grew four times in their

01:16:05.342 --> 01:16:08.502
revenue growth over the course of three years than the companies that were in

01:16:08.502 --> 01:16:09.762
the command and control approach.

01:16:10.042 --> 01:16:17.342
So this works, but it requires letting go. And in leadership and corporate organizations

01:16:17.342 --> 01:16:21.402
especially, letting go feels like the opposite of what you've got to do to drive

01:16:21.402 --> 01:16:23.502
results. And so it is counterintuitive.

01:16:24.002 --> 01:16:31.102
So your answer kind of – well, there were a couple of questions and your answer kind of –.

01:16:33.634 --> 01:16:37.214
Makes me want to do i i'm trying to think do i want to ask these questions now

01:16:37.214 --> 01:16:42.134
or do i want to save them but you you touched on a couple of things i want to

01:16:42.134 --> 01:16:49.614
ask you about in detail dealing with creating the experiences so let me go ahead

01:16:49.614 --> 01:16:51.794
and ask you how does a political leader,

01:16:52.554 --> 01:16:57.454
create the right conditions and experiences that change how people think and act specifically.

01:16:58.715 --> 01:17:02.995
Question. So there are lots of different experiences that you can create.

01:17:03.275 --> 01:17:05.295
A very simple one is storytelling.

01:17:05.715 --> 01:17:11.355
The narrative that you create by telling stories is a very, very powerful experience.

01:17:11.515 --> 01:17:14.055
It's why Hollywood makes so much money. We love hearing stories.

01:17:14.295 --> 01:17:19.435
Stories change our beliefs. And so the stories that a politician tells will

01:17:19.435 --> 01:17:24.335
shift beliefs, and that will lead people to take action, and that will get you a result.

01:17:24.555 --> 01:17:28.655
But storytelling isn't the only tool. I mean, there's also this element,

01:17:28.655 --> 01:17:34.055
you have to understand, of people interpreting what they hear through the lens

01:17:34.055 --> 01:17:36.175
of how authentic they believe it is.

01:17:36.395 --> 01:17:41.035
So when we hear a story, but then we see action from that leader that doesn't

01:17:41.035 --> 01:17:44.635
match that story, we have a spidey sense that goes off.

01:17:44.635 --> 01:17:48.155
And so the behavior and the leader interactions,

01:17:48.755 --> 01:17:52.475
whether they be one-on-one with someone in a room or whether they be recorded

01:17:52.475 --> 01:17:57.155
on TV and then posted on the news, people are watching how you behave,

01:17:57.155 --> 01:18:00.435
and they are drawing beliefs from that behavior.

01:18:00.655 --> 01:18:04.175
So whether you are smiling when you walk in the room or not smiling,

01:18:04.495 --> 01:18:08.115
whether you're asking questions on a call or whether you just didn't even show

01:18:08.115 --> 01:18:10.975
up to the call at all, these are all experiences that you're creating.

01:18:11.875 --> 01:18:17.995
So being intentional about how you show up is one way that I think everyone

01:18:17.995 --> 01:18:24.695
is trying to do that to some extent because they know that they've got the magnifying glass on them.

01:18:24.855 --> 01:18:30.235
But being intentional about the stories that you tell is one untapped resource

01:18:30.235 --> 01:18:32.275
that I think could be leveraged much more.

01:18:32.675 --> 01:18:37.295
And just those two things alone, that will change a campaign.

01:18:37.295 --> 01:18:43.935
Well, that's a gospel this podcast has been preaching as far as storytelling.

01:18:45.338 --> 01:18:50.938
You know, that's been one of the criticisms from my end of the spectrum. I'm a Democrat.

01:18:52.038 --> 01:18:58.358
And one of the things that, you know, I accuse fellow Democrats and,

01:18:58.558 --> 01:19:03.738
you know, people in general is that we don't we're not effective storytellers.

01:19:04.058 --> 01:19:10.678
Like, yeah, you were telling the story about your daughter when y'all were sightseeing

01:19:10.678 --> 01:19:15.338
in D.C. and you found out that she thought Thomas Jefferson was black, right?

01:19:15.638 --> 01:19:21.338
Yeah. And out of that, you were talking about because of her experiences,

01:19:22.118 --> 01:19:25.258
you know, that's her socialization.

01:19:25.498 --> 01:19:29.338
That's how she figured out, well, she was kind of shocked. It's like,

01:19:29.438 --> 01:19:31.318
how did a black man own slave? You know what I'm saying?

01:19:31.558 --> 01:19:37.598
Right. So it was like, but in that you were talking about how important it is

01:19:37.598 --> 01:19:42.418
for storytelling because storytelling is what molded her. Because she saw Hamilton.

01:19:43.218 --> 01:19:47.858
And storytelling was based, she just internalized that, right?

01:19:48.078 --> 01:19:54.918
And that's something that we as Democrats will throw out all these facts.

01:19:54.918 --> 01:19:58.338
Because you said leaders make the assumption on facts.

01:19:58.678 --> 01:20:03.158
Yeah. That everybody should know these basic things. But it's like...

01:20:04.207 --> 01:20:10.467
But you've got to be able to relate to the people that you're trying to get to vote for you.

01:20:10.667 --> 01:20:15.227
So am I on track with what you were trying to convey in that story?

01:20:15.867 --> 01:20:19.627
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, she's obsessed with the Broadway show Hamilton,

01:20:19.627 --> 01:20:21.667
and Jefferson is played by a black man.

01:20:21.847 --> 01:20:24.547
And the narrative grabbed her.

01:20:24.807 --> 01:20:31.247
And then sneakily, invisibly, a belief formed that Thomas Jefferson was black.

01:20:31.327 --> 01:20:34.527
And she thought all of our founding fathers were black because they're all played

01:20:34.527 --> 01:20:36.707
by people of color in the show that she loves so much.

01:20:36.707 --> 01:20:41.887
So you don't even know what people believe and they don't even know the beliefs

01:20:41.887 --> 01:20:45.007
that they hold this is the bias story what is the bias that we have that gets

01:20:45.007 --> 01:20:49.607
our in the way of us thinking some you know realizing something or what our

01:20:49.607 --> 01:20:53.967
blind spots are but facts don't change people's behavior.

01:20:54.807 --> 01:21:01.307
If facts changed behavior we would all be supermodels right i mean we would

01:21:01.307 --> 01:21:06.807
we all know that you got to calories in, calories out. You got to work out. You got to eat right.

01:21:07.027 --> 01:21:13.347
I mean, it's not like it's a mystery how to get in shape, but we all struggle with it.

01:21:13.467 --> 01:21:16.107
I mean, I just had a bunch of Reese's Pieces right before this.

01:21:16.227 --> 01:21:21.527
Is it because I forgot the facts that's going to go to my stomach?

01:21:21.647 --> 01:21:25.867
Or is it just like, you know, I've had an experience which I'm really stressed

01:21:25.867 --> 01:21:28.687
out and the belief I hold is I deserve this Reese's Pieces.

01:21:28.947 --> 01:21:32.427
You know, We act in alignment with our beliefs and the facts aren't going to

01:21:32.427 --> 01:21:33.967
change those beliefs. Yeah.

01:21:34.447 --> 01:21:40.027
Going further down this trail, you said culture isn't what you say in a town hall.

01:21:40.367 --> 01:21:46.167
It's what people experience every day. So my question based on that is why do you think.

01:21:47.256 --> 01:21:50.316
Politicians have a hard time grasping that concept.

01:21:51.116 --> 01:21:56.516
It's not just politicians. I think as leaders, we think in any capacity,

01:21:56.516 --> 01:22:02.376
if you are a leader, we believe that the job of a leader is to tell people what to do.

01:22:03.016 --> 01:22:07.296
You all hired me or you all elected me or you all, you know,

01:22:07.676 --> 01:22:11.376
created, donated to my campaign in order to hear what I have to say.

01:22:11.476 --> 01:22:15.056
And I have to prove myself as being smart and knowledgeable and having all the

01:22:15.056 --> 01:22:19.896
answers. And so we're telling people what to do and we're telling people what to think.

01:22:20.396 --> 01:22:25.136
And the reality is great leaders are much more listeners than they are tellers.

01:22:25.336 --> 01:22:29.236
And, you know, a corporate CEO that goes into a town hall that says everyone,

01:22:29.696 --> 01:22:33.456
hey, we're going to be risk takers now. I mean, that doesn't do anything to

01:22:33.456 --> 01:22:35.436
the hearts and minds of the people in the audience.

01:22:35.656 --> 01:22:39.956
And the same way with politicians, when you go up to the podium and you tell

01:22:39.956 --> 01:22:44.636
everyone what they have to do, it doesn't change the hearts and minds of the voter.

01:22:44.636 --> 01:22:51.816
So we have to understand that people, you know, you're in your movie and I'm in my movie.

01:22:51.956 --> 01:22:57.956
Everyone's in their own movie. You can't expect them to walk into your movie

01:22:57.956 --> 01:23:01.276
just because you've got the bigger paycheck.

01:23:01.776 --> 01:23:05.516
You have whatever it is. That's hubris.

01:23:06.156 --> 01:23:07.116
Okay. Okay.

01:23:07.961 --> 01:23:11.041
So Proverbs 25, 28 says, a man

01:23:11.041 --> 01:23:15.821
without self-control is like a city broken into and left without walls.

01:23:16.121 --> 01:23:23.261
So in developing the skill set of surrendering to lead, one must improve self-control

01:23:23.261 --> 01:23:27.141
and cast aside the urge of subjugation, correct?

01:23:27.841 --> 01:23:37.221
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, mastery, self-mastery is ultimately the ultimate act of surrender.

01:23:38.041 --> 01:23:42.741
Because, for example, the Navy SEALs have a saying, which is control the controllables.

01:23:43.821 --> 01:23:46.261
The corollary, the hidden corollary

01:23:46.261 --> 01:23:50.561
in that message is, and stop trying to control the uncontrollables.

01:23:50.801 --> 01:23:54.121
The only thing that you can control is yourself.

01:23:54.361 --> 01:23:59.661
And everything outside of you, the team, the context, the circumstances,

01:24:00.181 --> 01:24:02.581
all of that is outside of your control.

01:24:02.701 --> 01:24:05.901
And yet we spend so much of our energy wishing it was different.

01:24:05.901 --> 01:24:10.161
Thinking other people should act differently or show up differently.

01:24:10.501 --> 01:24:16.421
And that's focusing on this delusion that you have control that you don't have.

01:24:16.701 --> 01:24:21.461
So self-control and self-mastery is the ultimate way to surrender because you

01:24:21.461 --> 01:24:24.121
are giving up all the things that are outside of your control that you never

01:24:24.121 --> 01:24:29.541
had control of in the first place and focusing on you and what experiences you create.

01:24:30.021 --> 01:24:36.641
Yeah. I use a lot of sports analogies and when you were talking about the Navy

01:24:36.641 --> 01:24:41.081
SEAL thing, I think about a running back in football, right?

01:24:41.401 --> 01:24:45.521
So a running back in football, their job is to get the ball and advance the

01:24:45.521 --> 01:24:47.361
ball as far as they can on a handoff.

01:24:48.261 --> 01:24:50.921
And, you know, sometimes that

01:24:50.921 --> 01:24:56.461
running back finds a gap and takes off about 15, 20 yards at the minimum.

01:24:57.821 --> 01:24:59.761
Sometimes, you know, they run

01:24:59.761 --> 01:25:02.981
that same play and it's like they can't get past the line of scrimmage.

01:25:03.856 --> 01:25:08.196
And so, you know, they asked the guy, a running back one time,

01:25:08.376 --> 01:25:11.916
it was like, because he was having a slow start to the season.

01:25:13.116 --> 01:25:17.216
And, you know, they said, well, what do you think the problem is?

01:25:17.616 --> 01:25:21.956
Because you were running all over the league the season before.

01:25:21.956 --> 01:25:25.776
And he said, I'm just trying to do what I can do.

01:25:26.536 --> 01:25:32.316
When the quarterback gives me the ball, I know where I'm supposed to go, and I go there.

01:25:32.316 --> 01:25:36.076
And it just

01:25:36.076 --> 01:25:38.956
seems like this season i can't get to where

01:25:38.956 --> 01:25:41.696
i want to go for stuff that i

01:25:41.696 --> 01:25:46.616
don't understand right and and basically what he was you know basically what

01:25:46.616 --> 01:25:52.156
he was saying in a polite way was that last season those guys were moving the

01:25:52.156 --> 01:25:56.676
pile so he could get to where he needed to be this year they're not doing their

01:25:56.676 --> 01:26:01.416
job well he can't control what the line does all he can do is control.

01:26:01.756 --> 01:26:04.736
Well, I got the ball. I know which direction I want to go.

01:26:05.396 --> 01:26:08.576
Maybe I can do a little move to kind of make something happen.

01:26:08.756 --> 01:26:13.056
But really, if the play is broken down, it's broken down. He can't do anything.

01:26:13.236 --> 01:26:17.876
And I think that's to me, that's the essence of what you're saying is that.

01:26:18.782 --> 01:26:23.882
Just do what you can do. Be the best self you can be.

01:26:24.122 --> 01:26:31.522
And then if everything goes right, it'll radiate to greater things happening.

01:26:32.302 --> 01:26:36.262
Did I oversimplify that or is that? No, that's beautiful.

01:26:36.462 --> 01:26:40.742
That's exactly right. We spend a lot of time playing the blame game. Whose fault is this?

01:26:40.942 --> 01:26:43.782
Well, that's not my job. I didn't even know. Ignore,

01:26:43.882 --> 01:26:47.342
deny, cover your tail there's all these excuses that

01:26:47.342 --> 01:26:51.382
we like to use to shirk accountability

01:26:51.382 --> 01:26:54.122
and accountability is a bad

01:26:54.122 --> 01:26:58.402
rap because we only hold people accountable when something goes wrong and so

01:26:58.402 --> 01:27:03.902
a new way of thinking about accountability is it is the personal choice to focus

01:27:03.902 --> 01:27:08.982
on what you can control to drive the results forward and if you are making that

01:27:08.982 --> 01:27:12.902
personal choice to focus on what you can control every day, then you are taking

01:27:12.902 --> 01:27:13.762
ultimate accountability.

01:27:13.942 --> 01:27:19.062
And you waste a lot less time talking about all of the people,

01:27:19.182 --> 01:27:23.142
circumstances, and environments that are making your life harder,

01:27:23.142 --> 01:27:25.942
which is really a waste of effort. Yeah.

01:27:26.642 --> 01:27:34.522
All right. Excuse me. So there's a couple of things I want you to explain before we get through.

01:27:34.642 --> 01:27:38.082
So I've got about two or three more questions.

01:27:38.402 --> 01:27:41.222
Break down the results equation.

01:27:42.872 --> 01:27:50.672
Happily. So the results equation is purpose, strategy, and culture all aligned to drive results.

01:27:50.992 --> 01:27:57.852
And these are the three core elements of any effort to drive results.

01:27:57.852 --> 01:28:02.152
You need to understand your purpose, which is your why, your strategy,

01:28:02.412 --> 01:28:06.952
which is your how, and your culture, which is the way you're going to go about doing these things.

01:28:07.172 --> 01:28:11.012
And the results equation is something that we studied with Stanford Graduate

01:28:11.012 --> 01:28:12.072
Business School as well.

01:28:12.072 --> 01:28:16.172
And we found that when organizations have those three things aligned,

01:28:16.452 --> 01:28:21.972
which is more often than not, not the case, they drive three times revenue than

01:28:21.972 --> 01:28:24.812
organizations with misalignment across those things.

01:28:25.072 --> 01:28:28.772
And the reason they're most often aligned, you know, I come from the business world.

01:28:28.872 --> 01:28:31.812
I don't know as much about political campaigns, but maybe you can tell me.

01:28:31.812 --> 01:28:40.012
In the business world, your purpose is usually created by the founders of the

01:28:40.012 --> 01:28:45.992
company, or they get rewritten by the new CEO when they show up.

01:28:46.112 --> 01:28:49.932
You know, the purpose is created in a vacuum over here. The strategy is created

01:28:49.932 --> 01:28:54.832
at the executive offsite every year in Napa, and then the culture is delegated to HR.

01:28:54.992 --> 01:28:59.452
Or it's not thought about whatsoever, and it's accidentally created.

01:28:59.452 --> 01:29:02.272
That's usually how it looks, which means it's not aligned.

01:29:02.572 --> 01:29:05.772
The organizations who put all those things together and think about what is

01:29:05.772 --> 01:29:08.692
our purpose, what's our strategy to get that purpose, what's our culture to

01:29:08.692 --> 01:29:12.852
drive that strategy to achieve that purpose, and do it in a way,

01:29:12.872 --> 01:29:16.572
this is the important part, that scales, because maybe the CEO gets it.

01:29:16.572 --> 01:29:20.532
But does your frontline worker, the person who's showing up at the 6 a.m.

01:29:20.712 --> 01:29:24.852
Shift, 12-hour shift, or the night shift, that works in the factory,

01:29:25.072 --> 01:29:29.232
that's doing the minimum wage job, do they understand the purpose,

01:29:29.412 --> 01:29:31.412
strategy, and culture and how they align differently?

01:29:32.160 --> 01:29:37.720
Almost never. And that's the work of of the transparency and communication to

01:29:37.720 --> 01:29:42.160
drive real alignment. You can get clarity at the top level, but you need to

01:29:42.160 --> 01:29:45.620
have clarity at the bottom level because those are the people actually bringing it to life.

01:29:45.920 --> 01:29:48.500
That's how you drive alignment and ultimately accountability.

01:29:49.100 --> 01:29:56.420
Yeah. So in the political sense, the purpose comes from primarily the candidate

01:29:56.420 --> 01:30:03.360
or either the political apparatus, whether it's a party or, you know, whatever.

01:30:03.680 --> 01:30:08.020
And then the strategy that comes from the campaign managers, right?

01:30:08.360 --> 01:30:12.640
You know, it's like, okay, well, this is how we're going to win this election.

01:30:13.280 --> 01:30:18.660
And, you know, we need these we need these precincts to vote and we we need

01:30:18.660 --> 01:30:24.000
to just do well, hang hang in there and other precincts. That's minutiae stuff.

01:30:24.180 --> 01:30:27.860
And then I guess the last part would be.

01:30:28.640 --> 01:30:35.820
Culture, how people think and act. Yeah, so that's more like the PR team, right?

01:30:36.000 --> 01:30:42.060
The digital person, the media strategist, the speechwriters,

01:30:42.320 --> 01:30:46.600
those are the folks that help make that, create that narrative.

01:30:46.880 --> 01:30:50.840
And then you're hoping for the result that you get elected.

01:30:50.840 --> 01:30:57.700
And going back to my self-criticism of my own party as a competitor to the Republican

01:30:57.700 --> 01:30:59.920
Party, especially with our current president,

01:31:00.280 --> 01:31:07.700
even though it's for nefarious reasons, they are getting the results they want.

01:31:08.781 --> 01:31:13.161
They have a lot of alignment between purpose, strategy, and culture is my impression.

01:31:13.201 --> 01:31:18.241
From the outside looking in, it is very aligned. You can agree with it or not,

01:31:18.381 --> 01:31:20.601
but the alignment is there and it's proven out to be true.

01:31:20.781 --> 01:31:27.221
Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, my challenge and everybody else's, how do we combat that?

01:31:27.521 --> 01:31:32.161
And basically, we just have to be as disciplined as they are.

01:31:32.161 --> 01:31:37.001
You know, and it's hard to look at something chaotic and say,

01:31:37.001 --> 01:31:42.701
there's some discipline in that, you know, but that's our politics right now.

01:31:43.001 --> 01:31:46.401
Yeah, absolutely. What is the action trap?

01:31:47.347 --> 01:31:51.767
The action trap is the endless cycle of activity that feels like progress,

01:31:51.767 --> 01:31:56.847
but does not actually move the needle on results. It's the thing that leads to burnout.

01:31:57.187 --> 01:32:00.607
It's the constantly striving to figure out what else do I have to do right now.

01:32:01.287 --> 01:32:05.847
Everyone gets stuck in the action trap various parts of their lives for a period

01:32:05.847 --> 01:32:10.367
of time, or you live in the action trap. I mean, some people just live in the action trap.

01:32:10.647 --> 01:32:16.107
And to zoom out of the action trap is to understand that people will act in

01:32:16.107 --> 01:32:17.087
alignment with their beliefs.

01:32:17.347 --> 01:32:23.507
And so if you want people to take different action, don't just tell them what action you want to see.

01:32:24.307 --> 01:32:27.227
Identify their beliefs and shape those beliefs with experiences.

01:32:27.487 --> 01:32:31.227
The action trap is where you go if you don't surrender to lead.

01:32:31.627 --> 01:32:36.907
And that's so the political example within the Democratic Party right now.

01:32:37.147 --> 01:32:43.607
One of the running jokes we have is that when when President Trump does something

01:32:43.607 --> 01:32:46.827
that we don't like or the Republicans in Congress, that's something we don't like.

01:32:47.407 --> 01:32:52.707
Our leaders write these letters, right? And they put them out in the media.

01:32:52.887 --> 01:32:56.807
It is like, you know, Schumer, Senator Schumer actually said,

01:32:57.007 --> 01:33:01.027
you know, I wrote him a strongly, a stern letter or something like that.

01:33:01.127 --> 01:33:04.927
And we were like going, yeah, that should move the needle. You know what I'm saying?

01:33:05.307 --> 01:33:09.227
Yeah. Yeah. Stern letter. I think that, yeah, you're right on it, sir.

01:33:09.467 --> 01:33:14.887
I mean, you know, like we're at a time where it's like, I think we need to change

01:33:14.887 --> 01:33:18.587
the game plan a little bit. And that's why I wanted you to find that because

01:33:18.587 --> 01:33:21.067
that's, to me, that's exactly where we are.

01:33:21.247 --> 01:33:26.387
We're in this action trap where it's like, we're still trying to do things that were cool.

01:33:26.647 --> 01:33:29.867
Yeah. Like they were cool, like 10, 15 years ago.

01:33:30.047 --> 01:33:34.787
And it's like, that's not, these folks are not responding to that.

01:33:34.967 --> 01:33:40.427
So that, you know, there's always a method to my madness when I try to select guests and stuff.

01:33:40.587 --> 01:33:44.447
And so I, I, I'm really, again, I'm really glad that you came on.

01:33:44.447 --> 01:33:48.887
I'm glad that you invited me yeah so last question.

01:33:50.263 --> 01:33:54.863
As far as the interview part, you did a TED talk, which got my attention.

01:33:55.063 --> 01:34:01.663
That's how you got on my radar. You gave a TED talk, which you asked the question,

01:34:01.903 --> 01:34:05.623
how do you get people to give a shit? Right? Yes, I did.

01:34:07.483 --> 01:34:12.203
The challenge I want for this to kind of close out the interview was like,

01:34:12.323 --> 01:34:17.003
how do you apply that principle or strategy to politics? Right.

01:34:17.523 --> 01:34:23.623
Well, the answer, the headline answer on how to get people to give a shit is

01:34:23.623 --> 01:34:29.623
through belief shifting, which happens when you create new experiences.

01:34:29.963 --> 01:34:34.743
And I mean, think about the experiences that Trump created in his campaign.

01:34:34.743 --> 01:34:41.143
I mean, my daughter and I listened to this song in the morning to get ourselves

01:34:41.143 --> 01:34:44.243
pumped up for school by The Kiffness,

01:34:44.443 --> 01:34:48.763
which is a remix of the they're eating the dogs, they're eating the cats,

01:34:48.923 --> 01:34:54.683
they're eating the pets of the people that live there thing that happened. And that was insanity.

01:34:54.943 --> 01:34:57.843
And it became a meme and it became this remix.

01:34:58.023 --> 01:35:01.643
And we like the song because the beats are good. But also the insanity of that

01:35:01.643 --> 01:35:09.503
moment in our cultural history was a president saying, these immigrants are eating your dogs.

01:35:10.183 --> 01:35:14.343
That was experience management. That was an experience that everyone suddenly

01:35:14.343 --> 01:35:18.323
had because there are so many cat lovers and there are so many dog lovers in

01:35:18.323 --> 01:35:20.863
this world that the belief was, oh no,

01:35:21.343 --> 01:35:26.643
the things that I care deeply about are at risk because of these immigrants.

01:35:27.043 --> 01:35:32.363
That was totally intentional, right? And that belief led people to take action,

01:35:32.543 --> 01:35:36.323
which is the outrage. And it got talked about because it was an outrageous story.

01:35:36.583 --> 01:35:40.563
That is experience creation. That's a perfect example of it.

01:35:40.643 --> 01:35:43.203
It is aligned. You may not agree with it, but it is aligned.

01:35:43.363 --> 01:35:47.683
And so in order to shift something from a political standpoint,

01:35:47.683 --> 01:35:50.463
you have to focus on the experiences you're creating.

01:35:50.983 --> 01:35:57.863
That is how you're going to move the needle here. And it is it requires some thoughtfulness.

01:35:58.023 --> 01:36:04.683
It requires thinking about what moves people and it can be used for good or it can be used for evil.

01:36:05.503 --> 01:36:11.163
You know, that's exactly right. Right. And so we have to try to get it where people can.

01:36:12.310 --> 01:36:18.510
You know, I want to be in a society where, you know, both parties or even a

01:36:18.510 --> 01:36:25.570
third party, you know, is being forthright and honest with people.

01:36:25.950 --> 01:36:32.390
And in politics, honesty has limits because it's like if people actually paid

01:36:32.390 --> 01:36:36.150
attention to like, so how exactly did you get that bill passed?

01:36:36.330 --> 01:36:37.630
Oh, let me tell you this story.

01:36:37.830 --> 01:36:42.490
Right. You know, it's we compared the sausage making. We like the end product,

01:36:42.650 --> 01:36:45.270
but we don't really like to see how that totally.

01:36:45.890 --> 01:36:53.810
And so but but to get to a political discourse, where it's like people are given

01:36:53.810 --> 01:36:58.710
these experiences from two or three different perspectives and then they can

01:36:58.710 --> 01:37:00.410
make an intelligent choice.

01:37:00.410 --> 01:37:09.130
But it's really hard now because people are given a choice and we know most

01:37:09.130 --> 01:37:11.850
people know that it's not logical or whatever,

01:37:11.850 --> 01:37:16.330
but it seems like it gets them just enough votes to win an election.

01:37:16.730 --> 01:37:21.030
And so that's that's really a challenge that those of us that that really want

01:37:21.030 --> 01:37:23.990
to see some progress here have to face.

01:37:23.990 --> 01:37:31.890
So on that note, my challenge this year for my guests is to finish this sentence.

01:37:32.210 --> 01:37:34.010
I have hope because.

01:37:34.970 --> 01:37:39.530
I have hope because of my faith. And my faith...

01:37:40.992 --> 01:37:46.672
Allows me to lean into letting go. So even when I don't get my way,

01:37:46.932 --> 01:37:50.692
I believe that if I just let go, things are going to work out the way that they

01:37:50.692 --> 01:37:55.252
need to work out, even if it's not the way that I had hoped it would work out.

01:37:55.372 --> 01:37:58.812
So even when I lose hope, I have hope because I have faith.

01:37:59.632 --> 01:38:04.192
All right. Well, Dr. Jessica Kriegel, I've really enjoyed this conversation.

01:38:04.192 --> 01:38:09.792
If people want to have that experience, how can people get the book,

01:38:10.032 --> 01:38:12.672
Surrender to Lead? How can people reach out to you?

01:38:12.992 --> 01:38:15.532
You know, the podcast, the whole thing.

01:38:16.292 --> 01:38:20.892
Surrender to Lead is available everywhere you buy books. You can go to surrendertolead.com

01:38:20.892 --> 01:38:24.772
to get some resources that we'll give you for free to help you implement what

01:38:24.772 --> 01:38:25.712
we wrote about in the book.

01:38:25.912 --> 01:38:29.532
My website, if you want to book me for a keynote, is JessicaKriegel.com.

01:38:29.772 --> 01:38:35.572
And I have a daily podcast called The CEO Daily Brief. It is a five-minute podcast

01:38:35.572 --> 01:38:39.132
every weekday talking about something that you need to know as a leader and

01:38:39.132 --> 01:38:41.772
looking at it through the lens that we have.

01:38:42.232 --> 01:38:47.452
Well, again, thank you for accepting the invitation and coming on.

01:38:47.912 --> 01:38:50.012
Greatly respect the work that you're doing.

01:38:50.852 --> 01:38:56.152
And like I tell people, you know, all the guests that I have on are smarter than I am.

01:38:56.652 --> 01:39:01.692
And, you know, so it's just really, really an honor to be in your presence and

01:39:01.692 --> 01:39:02.672
to have this conversation.

01:39:03.252 --> 01:39:08.472
I do have a rule that once you've been invited, you have an open invitation to come back.

01:39:08.792 --> 01:39:12.372
So you don't even have to wait for me. You can just say, look,

01:39:12.472 --> 01:39:14.732
Erik, I need to I need your platform.

01:39:14.932 --> 01:39:19.192
I need to talk about something and we'll make that happen. So I hope that you

01:39:19.192 --> 01:39:22.092
accept that invitation and do come back because.

01:39:23.780 --> 01:39:28.780
You are offering a valuable service. And I know your primary function is in

01:39:28.780 --> 01:39:33.540
the business community, but it's some wisdom as we've tried to prove here in

01:39:33.540 --> 01:39:37.960
this interview that can be shared in other fields as well. So thank you again for coming on.

01:39:38.620 --> 01:39:42.420
Thank you, Erik. You're a fabulous interviewer and I really enjoyed our conversation.

01:39:42.660 --> 01:39:44.720
Thank you so much. All right, guys, we're going.

01:40:05.324 --> 01:40:10.884
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Dr. Terri Givens.

01:40:11.264 --> 01:40:16.804
Terri Givens is a professor of political science at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver.

01:40:17.264 --> 01:40:23.204
She was a provost advisor on the strategy to address anti-black racism at McGill

01:40:23.204 --> 01:40:26.344
University from 2021 to 2024,

01:40:26.344 --> 01:40:31.624
where she supported the provost's office work to increase the hiring of and

01:40:31.624 --> 01:40:34.244
support for Black faculty, staff, and students.

01:40:34.744 --> 01:40:40.764
She is formerly the CEO of the Center for Higher Education Leadership and has

01:40:40.764 --> 01:40:45.664
worked with a variety of colleges, universities, and ed tech companies on issues

01:40:45.664 --> 01:40:48.744
related to innovation and excellence in higher education.

01:40:49.224 --> 01:40:53.904
As the author of the book Radical Empathy, Finding a Path to Bridging Racial

01:40:53.904 --> 01:41:00.004
Divides, She is a sought-after consultant and speaker on issues related to leadership and inclusion.

01:41:00.824 --> 01:41:03.684
She has more than 30 years of experience in higher education,

01:41:04.024 --> 01:41:06.684
politics, international affairs, and nonprofits.

01:41:07.604 --> 01:41:11.424
She is an accomplished speaker and uses her platform to develop leaders with

01:41:11.424 --> 01:41:16.424
an understanding of the importance of diversity and inclusion while encouraging

01:41:16.424 --> 01:41:18.464
personal growth through empathy.

01:41:19.284 --> 01:41:23.064
Terri has held leadership positions as vice provost at the University of Texas

01:41:23.064 --> 01:41:25.944
at Austin and provost of Menlo College.

01:41:26.922 --> 01:41:31.402
As well as professorships at the University of Texas at Austin and the University of Washington.

01:41:31.682 --> 01:41:36.162
She was the founding director at the Center for European Studies at the University

01:41:36.162 --> 01:41:41.362
of Texas and led the university's efforts in Mexico and Latin America as vice

01:41:41.362 --> 01:41:45.222
provost for international activities, as well as curriculum development.

01:41:45.482 --> 01:41:49.342
She has worked with a variety of organizations at the international level,

01:41:49.642 --> 01:41:55.042
including the German Marshall Fund, attending the annual Brussels Forum, the U.S.

01:41:55.282 --> 01:41:59.762
State Department, Transatlantic Inclusion Leaders, and the Helsinki Commission.

01:42:00.262 --> 01:42:05.482
Terri is the author, editor of books and articles on immigration policy,

01:42:06.142 --> 01:42:08.482
European politics, and right-wing politics.

01:42:08.702 --> 01:42:14.162
Her most recent published books are Radical Empathy, Finding a Path to Bridging

01:42:14.162 --> 01:42:20.722
Racial Divides, and The Roots of Racism, The Politics of White Supremacy in the U.S. and Europe.

01:42:21.062 --> 01:42:30.202
Her latest book, Reckoning, Creating Positive Change Through Radical Empathy, was published in 2025.

01:42:31.042 --> 01:42:36.242
And ladies and gentlemen, this is her second appearance on the podcast.

01:42:36.722 --> 01:42:40.462
So it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest,

01:42:40.862 --> 01:42:44.302
again on this podcast, Dr. Terri Givens.

01:42:55.980 --> 01:43:00.420
All right. Dr. Terri Givens. How are you doing, sister? You doing good?

01:43:01.140 --> 01:43:07.540
I am doing good. Well, I'm glad to see you and I'm glad to talk to you in a time like this.

01:43:08.280 --> 01:43:14.020
I've been trying to reach out to folks and, you know, I tell people all the

01:43:14.020 --> 01:43:16.220
time that this podcast is therapy for me.

01:43:16.820 --> 01:43:21.180
And part of therapy is I get to talk to people that's like, arrogance,

01:43:21.220 --> 01:43:26.680
we're going to work our way through it. So I'm hoping that you'll continue that tradition.

01:43:27.900 --> 01:43:31.360
You know, I kind of do icebreakers, so I'm doing something a little different.

01:43:31.500 --> 01:43:36.800
I'm just going to have you respond to a quote, and then we'll go ahead and get started.

01:43:37.060 --> 01:43:41.880
The quote is, to refuse to participate in the shaping of our future is to give up.

01:43:42.240 --> 01:43:47.800
Do not be misled into passivity, either by false security, they don't mean me,

01:43:47.940 --> 01:43:54.140
or by despair, there's nothing we can do. Each of us must find our work and do it.

01:43:55.351 --> 01:43:58.271
Yes. And that is all what I'm all about.

01:43:59.651 --> 01:44:04.931
You know, I'm all about action. I'm all about, you know, we look,

01:44:05.171 --> 01:44:09.451
you know, one of the reasons I am hopeful in this moment is,

01:44:09.651 --> 01:44:12.391
and people ask me this all the time, Terri, how do you stay hopeful?

01:44:13.231 --> 01:44:19.191
And I say, my parents lived through something much worse than what I am living through right now.

01:44:19.971 --> 01:44:22.911
I am, you know, their wildest dream.

01:44:23.951 --> 01:44:27.271
I got sharecroppers on both sides of my family.

01:44:28.751 --> 01:44:31.691
And, you know, we have risen up from that.

01:44:31.931 --> 01:44:39.391
I have a Ph.D., you know, and my grandparents couldn't have imagined that.

01:44:39.631 --> 01:44:46.151
They didn't even know what it was. And so the struggle has been going on for hundreds of years.

01:44:46.631 --> 01:44:51.991
Right. And my research, you know, that I'm working on even this summer is going

01:44:51.991 --> 01:44:56.431
back and helping us understand, you know, this has been an ongoing thing.

01:44:56.431 --> 01:45:02.191
And, you know, the divisiveness that we're seeing now comes out of all those

01:45:02.191 --> 01:45:08.911
hundreds of years of putting down black people and the ways that white supremacy

01:45:08.911 --> 01:45:16.271
has just infiltrated our culture to the point where people don't even understand it's there. Yeah.

01:45:17.111 --> 01:45:27.131
So you you are known for your your your I guess theory would I don't know if

01:45:27.131 --> 01:45:28.091
that's an accurate word,

01:45:28.131 --> 01:45:33.391
but your mission about racial empathy, radical empathy.

01:45:33.771 --> 01:45:37.851
Yes. And and you you were working on a book.

01:45:38.111 --> 01:45:42.991
I don't know if it was about to be released or whatever last time we talked. Yeah, Reckoning. Yeah.

01:45:43.391 --> 01:45:45.491
And so I guess...

01:45:46.529 --> 01:45:50.949
Forward a context of this conversation, define what is a reckoning?

01:45:51.709 --> 01:45:57.549
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So a reckoning is a coming to terms with what we are dealing with in the moment.

01:45:58.609 --> 01:46:03.989
Because part of the problem, I think, that we are having in moving forward,

01:46:04.129 --> 01:46:09.049
and I see this on, you know, forget, I'm not even going to talk about the GOP

01:46:09.049 --> 01:46:11.369
because they are long gone. It's MAGA.

01:46:12.009 --> 01:46:18.889
But even amongst Democrats who think they are helping, they haven't reckoned

01:46:18.889 --> 01:46:25.329
with the reality of how deeply entrenched so many of these issues are. Right.

01:46:25.549 --> 01:46:31.829
And so it's really important for us to understand that this is not just a new thing.

01:46:32.349 --> 01:46:36.609
It's something that has been going on. It is deeply entrenched.

01:46:36.709 --> 01:46:41.309
And if we don't reckon with that and reckon with our own responsibility for

01:46:41.309 --> 01:46:44.449
changing it, then we're not going to see the change we want.

01:46:45.764 --> 01:46:52.864
Yeah. So part of a racial reckoning period seems to be always attached to a backlash.

01:46:53.624 --> 01:46:58.784
Mm hmm. That's right. Would you consider the Louisiana versus Callais decision

01:46:58.784 --> 01:47:04.184
part of that backlash and what can be done to repel the backlash this time?

01:47:04.644 --> 01:47:07.824
Yeah, it's totally part of the backlash. So what we've seen,

01:47:07.964 --> 01:47:12.804
but it's I think we have to keep in mind that this has been the game plan for a while. Right.

01:47:13.044 --> 01:47:18.724
So it's not just that they, you know, the reason why these states are popping

01:47:18.724 --> 01:47:21.464
up with these new maps is because they've been waiting for this.

01:47:21.864 --> 01:47:24.424
You know, I was thinking about this in the content, even in California.

01:47:24.824 --> 01:47:29.544
Back in the 90s, we had the anti-affirmative action backlash.

01:47:29.864 --> 01:47:34.384
Right. California and Washington state had to give up affirmative action because

01:47:34.384 --> 01:47:36.984
of referendums and lawsuits.

01:47:37.324 --> 01:47:42.124
And so this stuff has been in the mix for a while. And so these strategies,

01:47:42.404 --> 01:47:45.544
they've just been waiting for the, you know, they waited for the Supreme Court

01:47:45.544 --> 01:47:48.364
to change so that they could could get this going.

01:47:48.564 --> 01:47:53.604
So, yes, it's a part of the backlash, but it's it's part of an ongoing strategy

01:47:53.604 --> 01:47:58.124
that has existed for a long time. I mean, you know, you think about Project

01:47:58.124 --> 01:48:00.284
2025, right? This is all part of that.

01:48:00.704 --> 01:48:06.544
And so this is, you know, the Heritage Foundation has been thinking about this for a very long time.

01:48:06.664 --> 01:48:11.384
And so they were ready to jump on it. And the problem is on the left and even

01:48:11.384 --> 01:48:13.364
in the center, we haven't been prepared.

01:48:13.644 --> 01:48:17.344
You know, we haven't been able to come together and say, we need to fight this.

01:48:18.064 --> 01:48:25.324
Yeah, and I, you know, I kind of wonder about that a little bit, because...

01:48:26.023 --> 01:48:30.363
Like you said, the Heritage Foundation, most of these organizations came up

01:48:30.363 --> 01:48:35.523
after the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act was passed.

01:48:35.703 --> 01:48:39.743
And really after the Johnson administration, because during his time,

01:48:39.903 --> 01:48:43.563
we had the fair housing legislation and all this stuff.

01:48:43.783 --> 01:48:46.723
So, you know, they've been figuring out.

01:48:46.883 --> 01:48:50.563
And then the Southern Strategy, all that stuff happened. And I mentioned in

01:48:50.563 --> 01:48:55.703
one of my podcasts, talked about the Powell memo, which, you know,

01:48:56.203 --> 01:49:01.103
I and several others think that that was the catalyst for all that stuff.

01:49:01.103 --> 01:49:05.423
And he got rewarded with a Supreme Court appointment, you know, afterwards.

01:49:05.763 --> 01:49:12.123
But, you know, it's just it just seems as though and I don't know why that is about us.

01:49:13.591 --> 01:49:18.491
That we tend to react rather than plan.

01:49:19.171 --> 01:49:23.531
So I guess that leads into my next question. How do you advise us to navigate

01:49:23.531 --> 01:49:28.691
the overwhelming hate and become the revolution and the change that we are seeking?

01:49:29.731 --> 01:49:34.191
So, you know, it's funny because people ask me all the time,

01:49:34.371 --> 01:49:35.491
you know, how do you keep going?

01:49:35.651 --> 01:49:38.031
But also it's like, why do we have to do the work?

01:49:38.211 --> 01:49:41.191
And it's like, you know, I have come to terms with that, right?

01:49:41.191 --> 01:49:46.111
Like, you know, I'm I've always been a trailblazer in higher education,

01:49:46.371 --> 01:49:47.391
you know, everything that I do.

01:49:47.511 --> 01:49:50.591
Right. I'm the first woman or I'm the first black person or I'm the first black woman.

01:49:50.791 --> 01:49:56.531
And so, sorry, you know, this is the roll of the dice that fate has given me.

01:49:56.671 --> 01:49:59.831
I have to be willing to step up and do this work. Right.

01:50:00.011 --> 01:50:05.691
And so, you know, the issue is and I understand people are tired.

01:50:06.151 --> 01:50:08.571
You know, you got all the thing. We need rest.

01:50:09.151 --> 01:50:12.171
Yes, you take care of yourself, but you also make sure that we are,

01:50:12.371 --> 01:50:17.171
you know, whether it's financially or volunteering, whatever it is.

01:50:17.951 --> 01:50:24.891
But, you know, the underlying issue is that we have to really try to work together.

01:50:25.291 --> 01:50:29.771
I mean, I'm watching, even in the, you know, the campaign for governor in California, right?

01:50:29.951 --> 01:50:34.671
I'm watching these Dems tear each other apart, and I'm just like, no, you guys, you know.

01:50:35.529 --> 01:50:39.149
Republicans wouldn't do that to each other, you know, not the way that we do.

01:50:39.589 --> 01:50:43.889
And so we really need to have a change of mentality.

01:50:44.369 --> 01:50:47.529
And it's starting to happen. So this is, I guess this is, you know,

01:50:47.609 --> 01:50:52.589
the good news, right, is that we are seeing leaders in the Democratic Party

01:50:52.589 --> 01:50:56.489
and outside of the Democratic Party saying, sorry, we have to work together.

01:50:56.649 --> 01:50:58.449
I mean, Hungary is our example, right?

01:50:58.629 --> 01:51:03.549
You had people on the left and the right, you know, center saying,

01:51:03.929 --> 01:51:09.369
okay, we have to come together to elect a center-right politician in order to kick out Orban.

01:51:09.849 --> 01:51:13.689
And I'm not saying we need to go center. Well, you know, to be somebody who

01:51:13.689 --> 01:51:18.869
studies Europe, I can say that our democratic party is basically to the right

01:51:18.869 --> 01:51:22.869
of most leftist parties in Europe, right? So we're already centrist.

01:51:23.149 --> 01:51:29.329
But what we need to do is say, we have to get through this moment, right?

01:51:29.349 --> 01:51:34.109
We have to move things forward so that we can get to the point where we can,

01:51:34.189 --> 01:51:40.189
you know, elect more Mamdani's who are going to do the kind of work we want to see going forward.

01:51:40.289 --> 01:51:46.089
But we can't get there unless we are willing to say, yes, we have to compromise.

01:51:46.089 --> 01:51:49.389
We have to, you know, we can't have these purity tests.

01:51:49.509 --> 01:51:53.269
And I'm not saying we shouldn't, you know, vote for people we want,

01:51:53.409 --> 01:51:55.769
but, you know, that's what the primary system is for.

01:51:56.049 --> 01:52:00.269
And then once that's done, you know, we have to move forward and say,

01:52:00.529 --> 01:52:02.869
we have to focus on getting people elected.

01:52:03.049 --> 01:52:08.329
And that means getting all of those people who didn't vote, especially people

01:52:08.329 --> 01:52:11.529
from the black and brown community, to get out there and vote.

01:52:11.609 --> 01:52:14.229
And that's what I'm going to be focused on for the next, you know,

01:52:14.469 --> 01:52:18.149
not just for the midterms coming up, but for the next three years.

01:52:19.549 --> 01:52:25.309
Yeah, you brought up a couple of points. So when you, there's a discussion right now.

01:52:25.549 --> 01:52:28.689
I don't know if you follow sports really well, but there's a discussion.

01:52:29.609 --> 01:52:31.989
The New York Knicks.

01:52:33.108 --> 01:52:37.648
And Oklahoma City Thunder basically took care of their opponents,

01:52:37.648 --> 01:52:41.108
and they're just sitting and waiting for who they're going to play in the next round.

01:52:41.508 --> 01:52:47.068
And so there's been a debate on all these sports talk shows about, is rest a good thing?

01:52:48.006 --> 01:52:53.926
And, and, you know, and you've had athletes on either side, you know,

01:52:54.686 --> 01:52:58.866
saying, well, yeah, you know, we went through it and it was kind of like we were rusty.

01:52:59.106 --> 01:53:02.386
And then other folks were saying, you know, it doesn't matter.

01:53:02.566 --> 01:53:06.866
It's like, if we know we're going to play this kind of team, then we need to rest.

01:53:07.286 --> 01:53:10.746
And to me, it just was like, it's all about focus. Right.

01:53:11.446 --> 01:53:16.706
And, you know, it's like, yeah, we're always, it seems like black folks are

01:53:16.706 --> 01:53:21.866
always the ones fighting the battle, but we have been given the role of being

01:53:21.866 --> 01:53:23.226
the conscience of the nation.

01:53:24.286 --> 01:53:28.626
100%. Yeah. So we, it's like we have to take care of ourselves.

01:53:28.646 --> 01:53:31.286
There's no doubt about that. We have to get our rest.

01:53:31.406 --> 01:53:33.986
We have to be healthy and all that.

01:53:34.126 --> 01:53:39.126
But, but I think the, the, the key about rest is that we have to be focused.

01:53:39.866 --> 01:53:43.686
It's like, you know, it's one thing to say, okay, I'm going to step away from it.

01:53:44.026 --> 01:53:50.266
But it's like, you know, when we step back in, we need to have a plan. We need to be focused.

01:53:50.566 --> 01:53:55.646
I sat in on the When Were Black Women, their big one.

01:53:55.806 --> 01:53:59.346
They had like about thousands of women on there.

01:54:00.086 --> 01:54:06.166
And it was after the Callais decision. And you could tell that each one of the

01:54:06.166 --> 01:54:09.706
women that spoke was working something anyway.

01:54:10.286 --> 01:54:13.966
And now it's like, okay, guys, now it's time for us to get together.

01:54:14.146 --> 01:54:17.586
I think that's where we have to get to.

01:54:17.706 --> 01:54:24.426
We have to get to a point where we're focused on what we want to do and not

01:54:24.426 --> 01:54:29.566
be scared to implement the plan and not be scared to call people out for who they are.

01:54:30.726 --> 01:54:33.866
That doesn't sound too empathetic, but what do you think?

01:54:34.836 --> 01:54:41.276
No, I mean, so I talk about strategic empathy. And so what I mean by that is,

01:54:41.516 --> 01:54:45.156
first of all, empathy is not absolution at all, right?

01:54:45.296 --> 01:54:48.516
We're not saying, oh, we're going to let these people do whatever they want

01:54:48.516 --> 01:54:49.276
because we have empathy.

01:54:49.436 --> 01:54:53.156
No, we want to understand, and this is the researcher in me,

01:54:53.196 --> 01:54:56.596
right? I want to understand why people are acting the way they are so that I

01:54:56.596 --> 01:54:59.516
can figure out the best strategy to address it.

01:54:59.716 --> 01:55:03.636
And that's what empathy is all about for me. It's not, oh, I'm going to,

01:55:03.636 --> 01:55:05.496
you know, just feel for this person.

01:55:05.616 --> 01:55:10.816
No, I want to understand, okay, what is the thing that's going to get my apathetic

01:55:10.816 --> 01:55:14.416
neighbor off their butt to get out and vote?

01:55:15.056 --> 01:55:19.016
And oftentimes it's that personal relationship. And that's why I say we all

01:55:19.016 --> 01:55:23.336
have to be involved and engaged because it may be me going out and talking to

01:55:23.336 --> 01:55:26.956
my neighbors and making sure five of those neighbors who didn't vote actually vote.

01:55:27.236 --> 01:55:31.936
You know, maybe it's explaining to, you know, my brother who,

01:55:32.256 --> 01:55:34.636
you know, voted for or didn't, you know,

01:55:35.176 --> 01:55:38.176
maybe voted for a different candidate, not Trump, but, you know,

01:55:38.416 --> 01:55:42.356
but to say, hey, this, these are the reasons you need to vote for this candidate.

01:55:42.876 --> 01:55:48.456
And it's and we have to have that sense of urgency. I mean, that's why the civil

01:55:48.456 --> 01:55:53.476
rights movement was successful in the 60s is because we had this sense of urgency,

01:55:53.676 --> 01:55:55.056
right? It's like we can't wait.

01:55:55.456 --> 01:56:01.116
And now we're being, as things are being rolled backwards, we're in that same situation, right?

01:56:01.196 --> 01:56:06.676
This is a time when we cannot sit here and wait for somebody else to,

01:56:07.056 --> 01:56:08.596
you know, it's the man in the mirror moment.

01:56:09.476 --> 01:56:14.196
It's you know and i talk about this in both my books you know it's it's it's

01:56:14.196 --> 01:56:19.756
not about that person over there doing it every single one of us have to take

01:56:19.756 --> 01:56:24.156
responsibility and imagine if we all said tomorrow i'm going to go out and i'm

01:56:24.156 --> 01:56:25.796
going to take somebody to the polls with me,

01:56:26.336 --> 01:56:30.216
that could change an election even one of these gerrymandered elections,

01:56:31.442 --> 01:56:36.322
Yeah, I had a Republican colleague, he was running against a lady.

01:56:36.322 --> 01:56:40.022
I had coached her son, she was a black lady, and I had coached her son in football.

01:56:40.362 --> 01:56:44.762
And she decided that she was going to run against him in the Republican primary.

01:56:45.642 --> 01:56:49.042
And he kind of took it for granted for a minute.

01:56:49.222 --> 01:56:54.462
And then when it looked like that she was winning, him and his wife got together

01:56:54.462 --> 01:56:59.382
and they wrote like 10 letters to friends.

01:57:00.702 --> 01:57:06.862
And their appeal was each one of you that gets this letter, you write 10 letters.

01:57:09.402 --> 01:57:14.762
And obviously it worked because he got reelected. And, you know,

01:57:14.882 --> 01:57:20.062
so it's, people look at that as like a euphemism or whatever.

01:57:20.222 --> 01:57:22.982
It's like, you know, yeah, and bring a friend and all that. It's like,

01:57:23.182 --> 01:57:24.022
yeah, right. Okay, whatever.

01:57:24.202 --> 01:57:28.462
You're just lucky to get me to vote. But it's really, really important for us

01:57:28.462 --> 01:57:34.042
to evangelize and get other people engaged.

01:57:34.642 --> 01:57:38.662
Like I said, you and I are political junkies. Yes.

01:57:39.162 --> 01:57:42.842
And so we don't want people to be like that, like us.

01:57:43.042 --> 01:57:46.422
But we do want them because they're citizens to be engaged.

01:57:46.422 --> 01:57:52.422
And I think it's really, really important to stress that people need to reach

01:57:52.422 --> 01:57:58.682
out to their friends and their neighbors and, you know, and get them to participate in the process.

01:57:59.863 --> 01:58:04.563
Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, it's funny, I have longstanding friends

01:58:04.563 --> 01:58:08.263
who, you know, will tell me, well, you know, I didn't vote or I'm like,

01:58:08.403 --> 01:58:12.743
and, you know, those are sometimes the people who are harder to convince.

01:58:13.503 --> 01:58:18.503
And so, you know, sometimes we have to, so I guess where the balance comes in

01:58:18.503 --> 01:58:21.763
for me is, you know, some people aren't going to, they just aren't going to

01:58:21.763 --> 01:58:28.123
change. So what we have to be able to do is say, OK, well, I did my due diligence with this person.

01:58:28.423 --> 01:58:31.083
You know, I can try the next person.

01:58:31.623 --> 01:58:35.523
And that's why, you know, in order to get another five people to vote,

01:58:35.623 --> 01:58:37.923
you're going to have to probably talk to 15 or 20 people.

01:58:38.663 --> 01:58:43.823
You know, it's not just, oh, I got I talked to these five people. I'm done. No, it's.

01:58:44.203 --> 01:58:48.223
And, you know, I belong to groups where we do postcards and,

01:58:48.263 --> 01:58:49.743
you know, and that's why, you know,

01:58:50.023 --> 01:58:53.223
you think about the fact that campaign, you know, this they invest so much time

01:58:53.223 --> 01:58:56.603
and energy getting people to get on phone banks and write postcards because

01:58:56.603 --> 01:59:00.923
we know that that personal touch is often what gets somebody off their butt

01:59:00.923 --> 01:59:02.523
and out to the to the polls.

01:59:02.523 --> 01:59:05.923
And, you know, it's really interesting because obviously, you know,

01:59:06.083 --> 01:59:09.783
the GOP is targeting the souls to the polls and things like that with the churches.

01:59:09.823 --> 01:59:13.223
And we don't have that as strong a connection to the churches anymore.

01:59:13.543 --> 01:59:16.583
Right. Because we've got these mega churches and things like that.

01:59:16.723 --> 01:59:20.763
And so, you know, it used to be much more localized and people would go to their

01:59:20.763 --> 01:59:24.243
local church and we don't have those strong connections anymore.

01:59:24.463 --> 01:59:30.403
And and so we have to look beyond, you know, because during the 60s,

01:59:30.483 --> 01:59:32.823
you know, you just focus on the churches. That was great.

01:59:32.983 --> 01:59:36.823
But now we have to go beyond that. And we also have to reach,

01:59:36.943 --> 01:59:38.963
you know, the men, especially the young men.

01:59:39.963 --> 01:59:43.863
And, you know, I'm very proud of my boys. They've always vote.

01:59:44.403 --> 01:59:50.963
And I make sure of that. But, you know, we need to make sure our boys are being

01:59:50.963 --> 01:59:54.043
educated properly, that they aren't getting lost in the disinformation.

01:59:54.223 --> 01:59:57.123
Actually, not just our boys, but everybody's not getting lost in the disinformation.

01:59:57.123 --> 01:59:59.023
Because I see this with people.

01:59:59.260 --> 02:00:03.600
Members of my family often get caught up in it. And so, you know,

02:00:03.680 --> 02:00:07.820
I use my Facebook page, I use my broader social media to educate,

02:00:08.120 --> 02:00:11.740
to help people understand what the stakes are, because like you said,

02:00:12.240 --> 02:00:16.120
not everybody is, you know, deeply ensconced in politics as we are.

02:00:16.300 --> 02:00:19.900
And so we cannot, and even for those who just pay attention,

02:00:20.020 --> 02:00:22.900
we cannot assume that everybody's getting the same information.

02:00:23.240 --> 02:00:27.880
And we have to provide that information. That sounds so much better,

02:00:28.060 --> 02:00:30.080
deeply ensconced as opposed to junkie.

02:00:30.220 --> 02:00:36.740
But yeah, you were impressed with the turnout of black voters in last year's election cycle.

02:00:36.980 --> 02:00:42.220
Do you think that we will match this energy, surpass this energy, or fall short?

02:00:42.800 --> 02:00:48.440
Surpass. I am not worried about that one bit because I hate to say it because

02:00:48.440 --> 02:00:51.780
it's not what you want to hear as a political junkie.

02:00:52.420 --> 02:00:56.620
But gas, the price of gas is going to get us out.

02:00:57.160 --> 02:01:01.020
And inflation, you know, they just got the latest inflation numbers.

02:01:01.700 --> 02:01:04.900
People are losing jobs. People, you know, it's funny because,

02:01:05.140 --> 02:01:09.520
you know, they tried to time the loss of health care benefits so that it was

02:01:09.520 --> 02:01:12.360
after the midterms, it's, you know, it's happening now.

02:01:12.640 --> 02:01:16.220
I know so many. And then the fact that people are having to pay more for,

02:01:16.300 --> 02:01:21.900
you know, for the health plans and that they're getting less for that.

02:01:22.000 --> 02:01:27.080
I mean, look, I'm looking at just, you know, kind of my informal polling of

02:01:27.080 --> 02:01:31.000
friends and watching what's happening to them with their health care and gas and everything.

02:01:31.860 --> 02:01:35.660
You know, it's going to, you know, that's why the Republicans are trying so

02:01:35.660 --> 02:01:41.160
hard to change the districts because they know it's going to be a huge outpouring

02:01:41.160 --> 02:01:44.580
of people who are frustrated with what's going on with the economy when they

02:01:44.580 --> 02:01:48.920
were—that's the thing that they were promised would be fixed. Yeah.

02:01:49.720 --> 02:01:52.460
Somebody had put up like a meme—.

02:01:53.472 --> 02:01:58.372
Had listed all the things that the president said he was going to do when he got in there.

02:01:58.612 --> 02:02:01.892
And they were like, and then at the end of it, they just said,

02:02:02.112 --> 02:02:06.652
has he done any of that that we asked him to do or that we believed he was going

02:02:06.652 --> 02:02:08.372
to do? And the answer was no.

02:02:08.672 --> 02:02:13.852
And so I think, but I still think that people were still kind of,

02:02:14.152 --> 02:02:16.752
until this Callais decision happened,

02:02:16.932 --> 02:02:20.892
because what I think really got people motivated was the New York Times.

02:02:20.892 --> 02:02:26.712
And I don't know if you saw it, but they put out a map of based on their reporting,

02:02:27.412 --> 02:02:31.992
right, what they were hearing and the sources and all that, because some of

02:02:31.992 --> 02:02:33.712
these decisions hadn't even been made yet.

02:02:33.812 --> 02:02:39.272
But they based they showed a map of black representation in the South currently.

02:02:39.692 --> 02:02:44.932
And then they did a map that showed what it would look like after the decision.

02:02:45.292 --> 02:02:50.512
And it was just like red all the way across the South. So you got to Georgia

02:02:50.512 --> 02:02:56.332
and then you had two little blue dots where Atlanta is and then it was red basically everywhere else.

02:02:56.692 --> 02:02:59.712
And then all of a sudden it was like, oh, we got to do this.

02:02:59.852 --> 02:03:05.352
And all the, you know, people, people I think got motivated on that. I really think that.

02:03:06.426 --> 02:03:11.146
I don't know, you know, I think people, if it wasn't for that decision,

02:03:11.146 --> 02:03:16.226
I don't know if black folks would have been as motivated.

02:03:16.226 --> 02:03:20.046
I think, you know, like you said about the gas prices, you know,

02:03:20.086 --> 02:03:25.066
a place like California and for people to understand California's prices are

02:03:25.066 --> 02:03:27.906
higher because for whatever reason,

02:03:28.126 --> 02:03:34.406
and Chicago's the same way, they put a lot of taxes that they want on the gasoline.

02:03:35.266 --> 02:03:42.046
So if gas is $4.50 in Georgia, it's like $6 in California or $5.50 in Chicago,

02:03:42.466 --> 02:03:44.786
right? I feel that pain. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:03:46.366 --> 02:03:51.706
Yeah, you know it very well. But even at that, it would seem like that was just

02:03:51.706 --> 02:03:56.726
kind of like, well, you know, and people were, they were not happy.

02:03:56.726 --> 02:04:03.566
But it seemed like this Callais decision is what really has kind of gotten Black folks like.

02:04:04.698 --> 02:04:08.758
Getting ready to turn back the clock. All the activists are coming out and all that stuff.

02:04:08.918 --> 02:04:14.678
And I don't know. Do you think that that was a fair assessment on my part,

02:04:14.838 --> 02:04:19.158
that the Callais decision has upped it more? Yes. Yeah. Okay.

02:04:20.198 --> 02:04:26.258
I agree with you 100%. But I would say it's this kind of, we are seeing a confluence of things.

02:04:26.398 --> 02:04:30.438
And it's not just Callais. It's not just gas prices and inflation.

02:04:30.698 --> 02:04:36.058
It's also the war, the cause of the inflation, and it's the tariffs.

02:04:36.998 --> 02:04:42.598
So I think the way that a typical voter is seeing is like, you know,

02:04:42.778 --> 02:04:45.218
their salary has not gone up.

02:04:46.198 --> 02:04:49.878
They're coming home and, you know, like they can't buy, you know,

02:04:49.958 --> 02:04:52.358
people can't buy beef, right?

02:04:52.578 --> 02:04:57.878
I mean, even I, in the last year, you know, watching the price of beef go up, I'm just like, okay,

02:04:58.158 --> 02:05:01.498
you know, luckily we don't already eat a lot of it and I'm not going to be,

02:05:01.698 --> 02:05:05.118
you know, there was a story on NPR I was listening to, you know,

02:05:05.138 --> 02:05:09.078
and they're finally talking to people who are being impacted by this stuff, but.

02:05:10.162 --> 02:05:13.462
You know, she's like, you know, I can't. And it's partly, you know,

02:05:13.782 --> 02:05:15.702
the health care issue. She's got a health issue.

02:05:15.962 --> 02:05:20.302
So, you know, she can barely afford to buy chicken, let alone beef or anything else.

02:05:20.742 --> 02:05:24.522
And so those are the kinds of it's, you know, it's as you know,

02:05:24.582 --> 02:05:27.802
I hate to quote Bill Clinton, but it's the economy. Right.

02:05:28.802 --> 02:05:36.502
Stupid. And between the economy and, you know,

02:05:36.722 --> 02:05:41.462
just people's sense that things are out of control with Trump's crazy,

02:05:41.662 --> 02:05:45.262
I mean, and they aren't even reporting on half the crazy stuff he's saying.

02:05:45.482 --> 02:05:49.962
Right. And nobody's paying attention to Trump being in China, except for us.

02:05:50.182 --> 02:05:56.742
Right. So even if Trump were somehow able to get a win, both out of China and

02:05:56.742 --> 02:06:04.122
Iran, the situation is so bad, it's not going to recover before the midterms.

02:06:04.842 --> 02:06:12.422
And so it's a situation that has long, is going to have long legs, right?

02:06:12.582 --> 02:06:17.322
It's not going to, nothing's going to change immediately. And so this is why

02:06:17.322 --> 02:06:21.722
you're seeing so many Republican, even before all this, we saw a lot of Republican

02:06:21.722 --> 02:06:23.922
candidates who just decided to retire.

02:06:24.422 --> 02:06:29.282
Yeah. So that leads me to my next question. Will we have a blue tsunami,

02:06:29.602 --> 02:06:32.082
a blue wave, or a blue high tide?

02:06:32.342 --> 02:06:36.102
So based on some of the answers I've gotten from people before,

02:06:36.282 --> 02:06:39.902
let me explain. The high tide is we just win the House.

02:06:40.602 --> 02:06:48.762
The blue wave would be we win the House and then we like get 51 out of the 100 senators.

02:06:49.682 --> 02:06:54.742
Blue tsunami would be like 2006 where we just mollywhopped them and took over

02:06:54.742 --> 02:06:56.842
both houses with significant numbers.

02:06:57.022 --> 02:06:59.042
So which one do you think it's going to be?

02:06:59.922 --> 02:07:03.402
With the information I have today, I think it's blue wave. Yeah.

02:07:03.662 --> 02:07:05.502
I don't see the tsunami. me.

02:07:06.642 --> 02:07:09.222
Yeah. You know, I think, I think.

02:07:10.667 --> 02:07:17.047
I tend to think tsunami because I just, when the Republicans overplay their

02:07:17.047 --> 02:07:23.427
hand, you know, I just think about 2006 and that whole Terry Schiavo thing.

02:07:24.027 --> 02:07:31.187
I think that was the key because people were like, y'all would go this far to

02:07:31.187 --> 02:07:34.647
get into a situation where it was just a family.

02:07:34.647 --> 02:07:39.307
You literally had legislation in Congress about one family, one house,

02:07:39.347 --> 02:07:44.147
and you're willing to do all this stuff. People are like, y'all are crazy.

02:07:44.507 --> 02:07:47.847
And then they just basically got rid of as many of them as they could.

02:07:48.447 --> 02:07:53.627
And the fact that, you know, I'm looking at races in Nebraska.

02:07:53.807 --> 02:07:55.587
I'm looking at races in Idaho.

02:07:56.247 --> 02:08:00.787
You know, we got a guy who basically is a lobster farmer. Looks like he's going to be a U.S.

02:08:00.887 --> 02:08:05.567
Senator. That's why I'm thinking that, you know, everybody, everything is in play now.

02:08:05.807 --> 02:08:09.467
You know, I wouldn't be surprised if that young man Pearson.

02:08:10.607 --> 02:08:14.987
Wherever they say the ninth district is, and it looks like he's already got

02:08:14.987 --> 02:08:18.207
a plan based on the interview I saw. It's like,

02:08:19.309 --> 02:08:22.669
wouldn't be surprised if he won even if they gerrymandered

02:08:22.669 --> 02:08:25.749
the district right and so i just

02:08:25.749 --> 02:08:28.549
i just think people i think

02:08:28.549 --> 02:08:33.889
people overall have their own reasons like you said this confluence and it's

02:08:33.889 --> 02:08:38.269
just going to come up and when it's all said and done on november 3rd i mean

02:08:38.269 --> 02:08:41.389
we still got people in minnesota mad because folks were getting shot and killed

02:08:41.389 --> 02:08:46.369
that's right so i can't see i can't see a pathway,

02:08:46.749 --> 02:08:49.329
if a Republican wins, they're barely going to win.

02:08:49.749 --> 02:08:58.129
Like in Tennessee, it was a special election and the guy was celebrating like, yeah, we won.

02:08:58.589 --> 02:09:00.789
Bro, you won by five points.

02:09:01.269 --> 02:09:05.589
Donald Trump won that district by 20. Yeah. And that's been the trend, right?

02:09:05.829 --> 02:09:10.369
Every single special election, et cetera, it's been, you know,

02:09:11.169 --> 02:09:13.169
either compressed or the Republican lost.

02:09:13.409 --> 02:09:17.909
So I I agree with you on that front. Why I don't see a blue tsunami yet,

02:09:17.909 --> 02:09:22.089
because I'm hedging and being cautious, is that...

02:09:23.387 --> 02:09:29.467
There's still that kind of rump of Trump voters who it doesn't matter what.

02:09:29.687 --> 02:09:32.567
And and so it's not even it doesn't matter what they do.

02:09:32.667 --> 02:09:35.187
It's like, you know, you're talking about Terry Schivo. I mean,

02:09:35.327 --> 02:09:38.567
they've done things way, way, way worse than that. Right.

02:09:39.307 --> 02:09:44.327
And and yet they these this rump of Trump voters can't be budged.

02:09:45.447 --> 02:09:50.667
So that's what I find disturbing is you've still got this 30 percent that no

02:09:50.667 --> 02:09:54.727
matter what he does. you know, they were complaining about Biden and,

02:09:54.907 --> 02:09:59.587
you know, and this guy can't even hardly put together a sentence.

02:10:00.107 --> 02:10:06.467
And they still can't seem to figure out that he's got dementia and even just

02:10:06.467 --> 02:10:09.947
things like walking down the street or the side down the stairs.

02:10:10.147 --> 02:10:16.847
You know, I saw a meme comparing Trump going down the stairs for this China meeting versus Obama.

02:10:17.247 --> 02:10:22.127
And, you know, it's just really interesting, you know, he, like Obama did,

02:10:22.307 --> 02:10:25.347
was able to do it in four times faster than Trump.

02:10:25.747 --> 02:10:30.727
And so the fact that they aren't paying any attention to any of this makes me

02:10:30.727 --> 02:10:35.447
think there's just a certain, and unfortunately they are clustered in these

02:10:35.447 --> 02:10:39.987
districts where unfortunately they're probably going to help the GOP win.

02:10:40.167 --> 02:10:44.527
Well, I think that's the silo of information, Right.

02:10:45.267 --> 02:10:49.407
There's a there's a couple. There's a brother and sister.

02:10:49.667 --> 02:10:53.907
They do a podcast and their parents are Trumpers.

02:10:54.922 --> 02:10:59.322
So every week it's like, y'all still supporting Trump after he did this.

02:10:59.462 --> 02:11:00.942
I mean, they have this conversation.

02:11:01.342 --> 02:11:08.422
And so recently I think the dad got sick. And so it's just the mom on the show right now.

02:11:08.902 --> 02:11:16.742
And so for some reason, she hasn't been able to see, watch Newsmax or Fox News.

02:11:17.302 --> 02:11:22.382
And so they've been asking her questions like, well, if the president did this,

02:11:22.482 --> 02:11:24.742
how would you feel? And she was like, well, no, I don't feel that way.

02:11:24.922 --> 02:11:31.322
So, finally, I said, so do you think you would still have this thought,

02:11:31.562 --> 02:11:35.522
this independent thought, if you were still watching Newsmax?

02:11:35.642 --> 02:11:40.442
And she said, maybe not, you know, because I have to, you know,

02:11:40.542 --> 02:11:43.382
it's like this is information I haven't been getting.

02:11:43.682 --> 02:11:49.382
And I think that's the challenge that we have to break through that silo.

02:11:49.802 --> 02:11:53.782
And, you know, because that silo is just as comfortable.

02:11:53.782 --> 02:11:58.622
Jesse Waters the other day was like saying he was talking about black people

02:11:58.622 --> 02:12:02.842
and he was saying that black if black people want to have more representation,

02:12:02.842 --> 02:12:05.202
they got to have more babies. Right. Right.

02:12:05.779 --> 02:12:08.499
You know, so these people are getting this information every day.

02:12:09.099 --> 02:12:16.119
And it's like we got to figure out a way to break through that some kind of way.

02:12:16.439 --> 02:12:22.159
And I don't know. You know, I guess I'm doing my part with this podcast. Yeah.

02:12:22.659 --> 02:12:28.039
Well, we are. But, you know, what it takes is it's got to filter down.

02:12:28.339 --> 02:12:32.039
So, you know, we're talking to a particular group of people.

02:12:32.039 --> 02:12:38.279
And then but we also have to be talking to our siblings and our aunts and uncles

02:12:38.279 --> 02:12:41.559
and, you know, and our friends.

02:12:41.739 --> 02:12:46.579
Right. I mean, you know, I wrote my books not because I thought the black community needed them.

02:12:46.719 --> 02:12:49.999
I wrote my books because I thought the white community needed them.

02:12:49.999 --> 02:12:54.179
And so, you know, go buy a copy of my book and give it to one of your white friends. Right.

02:12:54.459 --> 02:13:00.139
You know, because right now, our biggest problem is not the black community.

02:13:00.159 --> 02:13:02.719
It's not the brown community. It's white apathy.

02:13:03.259 --> 02:13:07.659
It's our friends who say they support us, who say, hey, you know,

02:13:07.719 --> 02:13:10.219
I believe in equality and they out there fighting.

02:13:10.679 --> 02:13:12.059
I have lots of friends who are

02:13:12.059 --> 02:13:16.439
white, but I know lots of white people who are just like, oh, I'm fine.

02:13:16.679 --> 02:13:21.659
You know, I don't need to do anything. And that's where, you know...

02:13:23.028 --> 02:13:27.448
And all these people who say, oh, I don't like to talk politics. I don't understand.

02:13:28.368 --> 02:13:32.908
Politics is every day. Politics is when you wake up in the morning to when you go.

02:13:33.728 --> 02:13:36.808
Politics is the fact that you only have to work 40 hours a week,

02:13:36.928 --> 02:13:38.928
hopefully. A lot of people are working more now.

02:13:39.788 --> 02:13:44.988
Politics is, you know, the way that you're being treated by your boss.

02:13:45.268 --> 02:13:50.508
Politics is in the fact whether or not you can, you know, claim something if

02:13:50.508 --> 02:13:54.628
you get injured on the job. all these things, that's all politics, right?

02:13:54.948 --> 02:13:58.608
And people don't, and even the price of food is politics.

02:13:58.968 --> 02:14:06.088
I mean, what Mamdani has been able to show is that if we were to actually tax

02:14:06.088 --> 02:14:07.988
the wealthy, we can do a lot.

02:14:08.528 --> 02:14:12.708
And I'm really pissed off at Gavin Newsom for not pushing through a wealth tax

02:14:12.708 --> 02:14:15.188
in California because we desperately need it.

02:14:15.368 --> 02:14:18.768
We got billion, and we got so many billionaires in

02:14:18.768 --> 02:14:21.548
california and and they need to be paying their taxes and

02:14:21.548 --> 02:14:24.388
they need you know and he's against it because he

02:14:24.388 --> 02:14:27.068
knows he needs those people to to support him if he's going

02:14:27.068 --> 02:14:33.988
to run in in 2028 but it's like gavin you know seriously dude we need this and

02:14:33.988 --> 02:14:40.108
and actually i think it would garner him more support if he did it well at the

02:14:40.108 --> 02:14:44.828
bare minimum because mom donnie worked out a deal with Hochul because Hochul

02:14:44.828 --> 02:14:46.388
was reluctant to that too.

02:14:46.568 --> 02:14:49.848
But my mommy said, well, look, we got all these folks in New York.

02:14:50.943 --> 02:14:54.423
Who don't live here. Yeah, they got all these mansions, and they don't live here.

02:14:54.483 --> 02:14:59.023
This is just their vacation home or whatever. Why don't we just tax that?

02:14:59.483 --> 02:15:04.503
And she said, I think we can get that through. And they got it through in the state assembly.

02:15:04.703 --> 02:15:09.903
And so California can do the same thing because a lot of people use their California

02:15:09.903 --> 02:15:13.183
homes as vacation homes, and they don't live there.

02:15:13.323 --> 02:15:19.463
And I think if a lot of states did that, that would generate a whole lot of revenue.

02:15:19.663 --> 02:15:23.883
Montana could probably make millions of dollars.

02:15:24.183 --> 02:15:28.143
The city of Coeur d'Alene, which is close to where I grew up, Spokane, Washington.

02:15:28.323 --> 02:15:31.923
Oh my God, if Coeur d'Alene, Idaho started taxing people who have vacation homes

02:15:31.923 --> 02:15:34.803
there, oh my gosh, they would be rolling in the dough.

02:15:34.943 --> 02:15:41.923
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, like you said, we have to be innovative in some of the things that we do.

02:15:42.223 --> 02:15:46.623
All right, so last question I want to ask you. In the midst of this latest backlash,

02:15:47.003 --> 02:15:51.563
what are some signs that you see Radical empathy breaking through.

02:15:52.735 --> 02:15:57.755
The fact that I see so many more people understanding that this is not just,

02:15:58.055 --> 02:16:02.455
that racism is not an individual thing, right? That it's systemic.

02:16:02.735 --> 02:16:05.835
And I love the fact, I have to give a shout out to my girl, Kimberly Crenshaw,

02:16:06.075 --> 02:16:10.175
with her new book, because she's the one who helped to develop critical race

02:16:10.175 --> 02:16:14.935
theory and intersectionality that talks about this, the systemic nature of all of this.

02:16:15.035 --> 02:16:17.535
And I love that she's getting her flowers now.

02:16:17.675 --> 02:16:23.435
But also, I see so many of, you know, in the classroom where I'm teaching it,

02:16:23.595 --> 02:16:28.255
where in the broader, you know, people who are in the activist community finally

02:16:28.255 --> 02:16:31.415
understanding the systemic nature of all this.

02:16:31.595 --> 02:16:35.115
And, you know, and it goes back to things like the 1619 Project, right?

02:16:35.215 --> 02:16:38.575
So I want to give a shout out to all those folks who have been doing this work

02:16:38.575 --> 02:16:40.235
in the trenches to educate.

02:16:40.735 --> 02:16:43.375
And that's why you're seeing this backlash. That's why you're saying,

02:16:43.495 --> 02:16:46.535
oh, this is just woke and, you know, and going after universities.

02:16:46.695 --> 02:16:49.435
They want people to understand the systemic nature of all of this.

02:16:49.715 --> 02:16:54.755
And so if we can get more of our white colleagues, allies, whatever,

02:16:55.035 --> 02:16:59.215
to understand that this is systemic and we're only going to change it by really

02:16:59.215 --> 02:17:03.635
shifting, you know, the needle has to readjust, right?

02:17:04.015 --> 02:17:08.175
And just because some of us have been successful does not mean that that will

02:17:08.175 --> 02:17:11.235
continue because I really worry about what's this future holds.

02:17:11.375 --> 02:17:14.775
Look, I have my son and, you know,

02:17:14.775 --> 02:17:20.395
others close to me who are experiencing discrimination as we speak, right?

02:17:21.315 --> 02:17:28.935
And, you know, it's heartbreaking. But that's what this environment has allowed to happen.

02:17:29.675 --> 02:17:33.475
And so we need to get on top of it because it's impacting our kids.

02:17:33.715 --> 02:17:37.955
It's impacting the future of the country and it's impacting the globe.

02:17:38.235 --> 02:17:42.655
The world isn't being impacted by what is happening in Louisiana. Yeah.

02:17:43.195 --> 02:17:50.455
And so, you know, one of the blessings I have is that there are so many of.

02:17:51.521 --> 02:17:55.841
All that are really on the front line. And when I say you all,

02:17:55.961 --> 02:17:58.381
I'm talking about the black academic community.

02:17:58.821 --> 02:18:02.841
I think, I think, you know, you talked about Ms.

02:18:02.881 --> 02:18:07.761
Crenshaw and, and, uh, Nicole Hannah Jones, yourself and others that,

02:18:08.041 --> 02:18:12.021
you know, really that's where the battle is.

02:18:12.161 --> 02:18:19.241
And, you know, early on, they, it's in project 25, 2025 to try to curb what y'all do. Right.

02:18:19.621 --> 02:18:25.201
So it's really, really an honor and a blessing to, to, to engage with you and

02:18:25.201 --> 02:18:28.761
others, because I think that's really where.

02:18:29.741 --> 02:18:36.481
We can turn the tide is through black academia and, and to teach people,

02:18:36.621 --> 02:18:43.841
not just our, our kids, but all, all American children, that there's a better way to do this.

02:18:44.001 --> 02:18:46.121
And so I just want to Thank you for that.

02:18:46.321 --> 02:18:52.681
Now, what I have been doing this year was closing out by asking people to finish

02:18:52.681 --> 02:18:57.681
this sentence, I have hope because, but you, you kind of addressed that in the beginning.

02:18:58.281 --> 02:19:04.941
And I just, you know, do you want to elaborate more on, on why you're hopeful

02:19:04.941 --> 02:19:12.121
other than the acknowledgement that you are a symbol of progress yourself? Mm-hmm.

02:19:13.089 --> 02:19:17.649
What else do you see that gives you hope? Well, the fact that we stand on the

02:19:17.649 --> 02:19:24.669
shoulders of so many great, amazing people who not only fought for civil rights,

02:19:24.789 --> 02:19:26.109
but gave their lives for it.

02:19:26.529 --> 02:19:30.429
And I get choked up a little bit when I say that because, you know,

02:19:30.709 --> 02:19:36.729
I cannot I would not be where I am today without so many people who suffered.

02:19:37.869 --> 02:19:42.129
Died, you know, gave so much of themselves.

02:19:43.089 --> 02:19:47.809
And so that is what just energizes me.

02:19:48.229 --> 02:19:55.489
And, you know, if I can just do a small little bit in this world that might

02:19:55.489 --> 02:19:58.249
help continue and push forward change,

02:19:58.489 --> 02:20:02.049
then that is enough to, you know, I have a fire inside of me,

02:20:02.409 --> 02:20:04.009
you know, because of those people.

02:20:04.269 --> 02:20:07.749
And, you know, my people were in Louisiana.

02:20:08.229 --> 02:20:13.049
My mother comes from Opelousas. They lived in New Orleans. You know,

02:20:13.149 --> 02:20:15.789
so I have ties to that part of the world still.

02:20:16.309 --> 02:20:20.429
And, you know, you may have heard of the Opelousas Massacre.

02:20:20.669 --> 02:20:24.009
So I think of all these different things and what my people there survived.

02:20:24.369 --> 02:20:30.509
And I cannot, you know, even begin to understand that the way that they did.

02:20:30.649 --> 02:20:34.209
And so I'm going to do everything I can to make sure we don't lose all of that.

02:20:34.789 --> 02:20:39.389
So if people want to get with you, Dr. Givens, and, you know,

02:20:39.449 --> 02:20:42.329
get your books and reach out to you, how can they do that?

02:20:43.221 --> 02:20:50.321
Go to terrygivens.com. That's T-E-R-R-I-G-I-V-E-N-S.com. And I'm on all the social media.

02:20:50.781 --> 02:20:53.941
You know, come and connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm happy to do that.

02:20:54.081 --> 02:20:57.361
And if you want to be a part of this fight, let's get together.

02:20:57.901 --> 02:21:02.661
Well, Dr. Terri Givens, I'm with you on the fight. And you already know the

02:21:02.661 --> 02:21:05.461
rule because this is your second time being on the podcast.

02:21:06.021 --> 02:21:10.521
Anytime you want to come back on, just let me know and we'll make that happen.

02:21:10.521 --> 02:21:16.261
But again, I just want to thank you for what you're doing and thank you for

02:21:16.261 --> 02:21:21.381
giving me some hope and some encouragement during this time.

02:21:22.321 --> 02:21:24.941
You're very welcome. Thanks so much for having me and I look forward to the

02:21:24.941 --> 02:21:28.441
next time. Yes, ma'am. All right, guys, we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

02:21:40.100 --> 02:21:46.620
All right. And we are back. And so I want to thank Judge Steve Teske, Dr.

02:21:46.800 --> 02:21:48.880
Jessica Kriegel, and Dr.

02:21:49.300 --> 02:21:56.000
Terri Givens for coming on the program. And as you could tell with my conversation

02:21:56.000 --> 02:22:02.660
with Judge Teske, this is something that we have both been very passionate about.

02:22:03.080 --> 02:22:10.760
As stated, he devoted 22 years of his life working, and he's still doing some

02:22:10.760 --> 02:22:12.700
consulting on the side, but as a

02:22:12.700 --> 02:22:17.980
judge, 22 years dealing with the juvenile justice system here in Georgia.

02:22:17.980 --> 02:22:22.420
You know, I did nine years on the Juvenile Justice Committee in the Mississippi

02:22:22.420 --> 02:22:23.360
House of Representatives.

02:22:24.260 --> 02:22:31.620
And, you know, that's an issue that gets another issue that kind of gets swept

02:22:31.620 --> 02:22:36.780
under the rug with all this craziness that's going on that still is happening.

02:22:36.780 --> 02:22:44.420
We still have to pay attention to our children, and even when they go wayward,

02:22:44.840 --> 02:22:50.380
find ways to bring them back without permanently institutionalizing them.

02:22:50.700 --> 02:22:55.340
You know, as he stated and I've acknowledged before,

02:22:55.700 --> 02:23:02.640
we've all done stuff as young people, as teenagers, that if it wasn't somebody

02:23:02.640 --> 02:23:06.040
looking out for us, we could have gone in a whole different direction.

02:23:06.040 --> 02:23:12.100
And, you know, so part of our obligation and our respective roles was to make

02:23:12.100 --> 02:23:18.020
sure that all children have that alternative path that may do something wrong.

02:23:18.220 --> 02:23:25.840
We don't want to continue to create a pipeline to jails for our young people.

02:23:27.151 --> 02:23:31.471
I was really, really excited when he accepted the invitation to come on.

02:23:32.231 --> 02:23:41.251
Dr. Kriegel, Jessica Kriegel, is an incredibly brilliant woman who is really,

02:23:41.591 --> 02:23:47.711
really focused in on helping us be better leaders, whether that's in politics,

02:23:47.991 --> 02:23:51.131
whether that's in the corporate setting, small business, whatever.

02:23:52.051 --> 02:23:58.671
And just to understand that it's a Christian concept about surrendering.

02:23:58.831 --> 02:24:02.951
You know, we were always taught that in order to be a better leader,

02:24:03.151 --> 02:24:04.271
you have to be a great follower.

02:24:04.551 --> 02:24:11.571
One of the classic examples in the Bible was Jesus wiping the feet of the poor people.

02:24:12.251 --> 02:24:17.191
And, you know, there's actually a denomination of Christianity in America that

02:24:17.191 --> 02:24:20.851
that's part of their worship service.

02:24:21.131 --> 02:24:24.811
That the pastor would actually wash the feet of the parishioners, right?

02:24:25.391 --> 02:24:30.091
And so, you know, even though that's quote-unquote symbolic.

02:24:33.071 --> 02:24:39.091
It's a very important point for us, especially in the political world,

02:24:39.311 --> 02:24:45.631
to not, and especially with the current leadership we have, that it's not about you.

02:24:46.051 --> 02:24:48.211
It's about the people.

02:24:49.514 --> 02:24:55.654
The preamble doesn't start off me, the person. It starts off we, the people, right?

02:24:56.234 --> 02:25:03.214
And in this democratic republic, we elect people to handle the day-to-day business

02:25:03.214 --> 02:25:07.774
of government, but they still work for us. We still have the say-so.

02:25:08.494 --> 02:25:13.514
And when things are going sideways, we need to let them know about it.

02:25:13.514 --> 02:25:18.874
And no matter how they try to intimidate us, no matter how they try to silence

02:25:18.874 --> 02:25:21.174
us, that's really our job.

02:25:21.474 --> 02:25:23.714
And it's our constitutional right to do so.

02:25:24.674 --> 02:25:28.534
And, you know, we have a right to redress.

02:25:29.094 --> 02:25:33.954
We have a right to assemble, to address the redress, right?

02:25:34.794 --> 02:25:38.474
And so, you know, what we see happening in Tennessee,

02:25:39.114 --> 02:25:48.054
you know, punishing the Democrats, you know, that guy actually should be in jail, too,

02:25:48.454 --> 02:25:51.714
the Speaker of the House, because he was involved in some kind of corruption

02:25:51.714 --> 02:25:56.994
thing going on in Tennessee, and that just kind of got swept under the rug, right? Right.

02:25:57.804 --> 02:26:00.584
Just look at the leadership that we have in this country. It's like a lot of

02:26:00.584 --> 02:26:07.684
people that should be in jail are not. And now they're in leadership positions.

02:26:08.304 --> 02:26:10.544
It's kind of crazy. Anyway, I

02:26:10.544 --> 02:26:13.484
want to thank Dr. Kriegel for coming on the show. And then, of course, Dr.

02:26:13.724 --> 02:26:19.524
Terri Givens, her coming back onto the show, and especially at a time like this,

02:26:19.824 --> 02:26:25.944
is really, really encouraging to listen to her and understand the work that

02:26:25.944 --> 02:26:29.704
she's doing to try to get us through, right?

02:26:30.044 --> 02:26:33.044
And I said it in the interview, and I'll say it again.

02:26:33.964 --> 02:26:40.024
The Black folks in academia right now, and there's a historical trend to that,

02:26:40.184 --> 02:26:46.704
but even more so now, the Black folks in academia are really on the front lines.

02:26:47.404 --> 02:26:51.844
These are our thought leaders. You know, we have some think tanks, right?

02:26:51.844 --> 02:26:57.724
You know, we had, you know, people on that, you know, are part of think tanks,

02:26:57.924 --> 02:27:04.984
but, you know, the lab that's happening at our university, especially at our HBCUs, right?

02:27:06.276 --> 02:27:10.536
We need to really, really uplift them, you know, whatever work they're doing.

02:27:10.756 --> 02:27:13.576
That's why, you know, with Universal Right Publications, Dr.

02:27:14.176 --> 02:27:20.396
Sekai, you know, we got to uplift all of our people in the academic world that

02:27:20.396 --> 02:27:23.176
are doing the work to educate us,

02:27:23.876 --> 02:27:29.736
educate our children hands on about what's going on in this world and come up

02:27:29.736 --> 02:27:34.436
with some solutions of how to navigate and defeat this. Right.

02:27:36.276 --> 02:27:40.436
And then kind of bring me down off the ledge with some of the radical ideas

02:27:40.436 --> 02:27:43.156
I have, or even encourage it.

02:27:43.376 --> 02:27:48.176
You know, it all depends on what I say, but I'm really glad to have people like

02:27:48.176 --> 02:27:50.216
Dr. Givens come on the show.

02:27:50.416 --> 02:27:56.396
Now, there has been an issue that I have not really addressed on this show,

02:27:56.396 --> 02:28:03.956
and I should have been from day one, but I want to devote time to this now.

02:28:03.956 --> 02:28:08.916
And that's dealing with this situation in New Orleans. And I'm not talking about the redistricting.

02:28:09.856 --> 02:28:14.176
I'm talking about the situation with this brother named Calvin Duncan.

02:28:14.856 --> 02:28:23.056
For those who do not know, Calvin Duncan spent 28 years wrongfully imprisoned

02:28:23.056 --> 02:28:33.276
for a 1981 murder before being freed in 2011 and then being exonerated 10 years later in 2021.

02:28:34.756 --> 02:28:40.096
And he learned, he got his law degree after he got out.

02:28:40.616 --> 02:28:45.376
But during the time he was incarcerated, he was, because he was trying to figure

02:28:45.376 --> 02:28:49.716
out how he could prove his innocence, he became a jailhouse lawyer.

02:28:51.170 --> 02:28:59.630
And he decided this election year to run for the clerk for the Criminal District

02:28:59.630 --> 02:29:01.590
Court of Orleans Parish.

02:29:02.010 --> 02:29:09.390
And he ran on a on a platform to make the office more transparent and transparent.

02:29:12.146 --> 02:29:16.186
Update to record keeping and all that stuff, the stuff that clerks do.

02:29:16.726 --> 02:29:20.926
He said he could do a better job than the guy who was in there, right?

02:29:21.806 --> 02:29:28.486
And 68% of the people, right? He ran in November of last year.

02:29:29.206 --> 02:29:34.746
68% of the people last year in the election voted for Mr. Duncan.

02:29:35.306 --> 02:29:39.466
So now it's like this great story. Here's this guy who was formerly incarcerated,

02:29:39.466 --> 02:29:42.606
and he's reformed his life.

02:29:43.566 --> 02:29:48.946
You know, he was proven innocent, and now he wants to give back to the community,

02:29:48.946 --> 02:29:52.366
and the community overwhelmingly supported him.

02:29:53.626 --> 02:29:58.306
But there were some people that weren't happy about it, especially this lady named Liz Morrell.

02:29:58.406 --> 02:30:01.986
Now, Liz Morrell is the attorney general for the state of Louisiana.

02:30:03.886 --> 02:30:09.566
And her big thing is that her and Mr. Duncan got into it because Mr.

02:30:09.666 --> 02:30:15.786
Duncan was trying to get, you know, reparations for his time in jail.

02:30:16.186 --> 02:30:22.386
Like I said, he almost spent 30 years in jail and he was wrongfully convicted.

02:30:22.386 --> 02:30:30.266
And so in most states, if not all, there's a way for wrongly convicted people

02:30:30.266 --> 02:30:33.166
to be compensated for that time.

02:30:34.126 --> 02:30:37.766
And Ms. Morrell and Mr.

02:30:37.846 --> 02:30:42.706
Duncan have been at odds about what the settlement should be.

02:30:43.326 --> 02:30:49.346
To the point where Mr. Duncan just said, you know what, I'm not really worried about that.

02:30:49.726 --> 02:30:53.526
You know, I just know that that's supposed to be part of the deal.

02:30:55.486 --> 02:31:00.626
And I'm going to move on with my life. And so that's why he ran for the criminal

02:31:00.626 --> 02:31:03.106
district court clerk in Orleans Parish.

02:31:04.367 --> 02:31:07.427
And, you know, because I guess, you know, if he's going to use the money,

02:31:07.547 --> 02:31:13.587
he's going to use it money to start a nonprofit and go about reform that way.

02:31:13.687 --> 02:31:15.727
But he decided, well, I'll just run for office.

02:31:16.527 --> 02:31:23.087
So after he won, the attorney general got with the governor of the state and

02:31:23.087 --> 02:31:28.387
the governor found some dude in some senator from Moreau, Louisiana.

02:31:28.647 --> 02:31:29.687
I think his name is Morris.

02:31:30.627 --> 02:31:36.927
And he decided to do something really, really crazy. they wanted to pass a law.

02:31:38.333 --> 02:31:41.393
To abolish the office that Mr.

02:31:41.573 --> 02:31:46.513
Duncan won in time so that he wouldn't be sworn in.

02:31:47.233 --> 02:31:54.233
So they were trying to push this legislation through. It was Senate Bill 2056.

02:31:55.073 --> 02:32:00.093
And because Louisiana is majority Republican, all these people that are against Mr.

02:32:00.153 --> 02:32:04.193
Duncan, Mr. Duncan is a Democrat, and all these people are Republicans,

02:32:04.513 --> 02:32:06.713
Landry, Morrell, and this guy Morris. us.

02:32:07.633 --> 02:32:12.893
And since Louisiana's majority Republican legislature, they got it through.

02:32:13.113 --> 02:32:16.633
And so now it is actually a law called Act 15.

02:32:17.353 --> 02:32:23.313
And the governor signed it before Duncan was to be sworn in.

02:32:24.133 --> 02:32:29.033
What then happened is that a judge stepped in, federal judge stepped in,

02:32:29.253 --> 02:32:35.453
and ruled that the act was unconstitutional, which allowed Mr.

02:32:35.573 --> 02:32:37.833
Duncan to be sworn in, right?

02:32:38.253 --> 02:32:43.593
However, he only got to sit in that chair for a few hours because the Fifth

02:32:43.593 --> 02:32:45.713
Circuit, which is based in New Orleans,

02:32:46.573 --> 02:32:50.833
immediately took up the case and granted an emergency administrative stay,

02:32:50.873 --> 02:32:59.913
which basically meant that they overruled that judge and restored that law.

02:33:00.573 --> 02:33:06.293
So now, Mr. Duncan has been elected to a position that no longer exists.

02:33:08.513 --> 02:33:13.493
So, of course, Orly's Parish is part of New Orleans.

02:33:13.813 --> 02:33:18.473
So the folks at New Orleans were already upset. The delegation was upset.

02:33:19.273 --> 02:33:27.493
And the city decided, along with the district attorney, they decided that they

02:33:27.493 --> 02:33:32.793
were going to approach the city council and push a resolution through that resolution.

02:33:34.291 --> 02:33:39.131
Would create one, well, it was two resolutions. One, it would set a special

02:33:39.131 --> 02:33:42.011
election for November the 3rd, 2026.

02:33:44.051 --> 02:33:51.151
To elect a new, because what they did was they took the criminal clerk's position

02:33:51.151 --> 02:33:55.031
and merged it with the civil clerk's position, right?

02:33:55.031 --> 02:33:59.671
So now it's one office of the clerk of the court in Orleans Parish.

02:34:00.491 --> 02:34:05.531
And so the New Orleans City Council said, well, we're going to have a special

02:34:05.531 --> 02:34:10.691
election for this new office that's been created because you basically have

02:34:10.691 --> 02:34:13.191
combined the two offices.

02:34:13.191 --> 02:34:20.371
And since there was a separate election for the civil clerk and the criminal

02:34:20.371 --> 02:34:26.731
clerk, that it's only fair that we have an election for the combined office.

02:34:26.731 --> 02:34:30.031
And they wanted to set it for November the 3rd.

02:34:30.191 --> 02:34:40.771
And they wanted to appoint a retired judge to serve as the clerk until the election happened.

02:34:41.171 --> 02:34:46.371
So basically, they were kicking this woman off named Chelsea Napoleon,

02:34:46.391 --> 02:34:51.191
who was elected as the civil district clerk, right?

02:34:52.191 --> 02:34:58.331
Ms. Napoleon is also black. Ms. Napoleon was not too happy about that.

02:34:58.771 --> 02:35:07.351
She had been quiet the whole time that what eventually became Act 15 was going

02:35:07.351 --> 02:35:08.671
through the legislative process.

02:35:08.871 --> 02:35:11.471
But after the New Orleans City Council...

02:35:13.047 --> 02:35:17.987
Actually said what they were going to do. But then she got very vocal and she

02:35:17.987 --> 02:35:19.167
spoke before the council.

02:35:20.027 --> 02:35:24.667
And of course, some of the council members were like looking at her like,

02:35:25.707 --> 02:35:30.007
okay, you know, so you don't get it.

02:35:30.327 --> 02:35:36.827
These folks have taken away a position for somebody and, you know,

02:35:37.567 --> 02:35:40.907
we don't think that it's fair that you should benefit from that.

02:35:40.907 --> 02:35:44.787
And we should let the voters decide because the voters voted for you,

02:35:44.967 --> 02:35:46.387
but they also voted for Mr. Duncan.

02:35:47.267 --> 02:35:53.487
So to make it fair, we're going to relieve you of your duty for this new office

02:35:53.487 --> 02:35:55.307
that's been created, right?

02:35:55.867 --> 02:35:59.167
We're going to put somebody in and then have an election. Now,

02:35:59.307 --> 02:36:01.447
if you want to run in that election, you can't.

02:36:02.207 --> 02:36:08.667
But, you know, this is what we're going to do. Well, she filed a lawsuit in reaction to that.

02:36:09.827 --> 02:36:14.187
And so now that's being decided by the court.

02:36:14.827 --> 02:36:20.727
As a matter of fact, the Supreme Court of Louisiana said that Mr.

02:36:20.887 --> 02:36:24.347
Johnson can't sit in that seat, right?

02:36:24.627 --> 02:36:28.227
That Ms. Napoleon should be in that seat.

02:36:28.767 --> 02:36:33.707
For the time being, they didn't they didn't strike down the resolution for the election.

02:36:34.187 --> 02:36:40.407
Keep in mind that they didn't strike that a resolution for the election to be held November 3rd.

02:36:41.567 --> 02:36:47.827
But they did say that the judge can't be the interim clerk, that Miss Napoleon

02:36:47.827 --> 02:36:52.327
would be the clerk until said time.

02:36:52.907 --> 02:36:58.387
So what it looks like is going to happen is that Miss Napoleon is going to run against Mr.

02:36:58.507 --> 02:37:01.567
Duncan for this unified seat in November.

02:37:03.477 --> 02:37:06.437
In the meantime, our friend, Ms. Murrell, the Attorney General,

02:37:07.077 --> 02:37:12.657
is literally threatening every elected official in New Orleans.

02:37:15.017 --> 02:37:21.237
She said that the council's actions were illegal and that she wanted to she

02:37:21.237 --> 02:37:25.737
was going to use usurper statutes, something in Louisiana law,

02:37:26.157 --> 02:37:33.317
to remove the council members that voted for the resolution and the mayor from office.

02:37:33.477 --> 02:37:39.097
And the mayor, Helen Moreno, who is now the first Latino to be elected mayor

02:37:39.097 --> 02:37:42.017
in New Orleans, and she was a former member of the council.

02:37:42.277 --> 02:37:46.197
So she basically said, bring it on.

02:37:46.697 --> 02:37:49.617
But what I think is going to happen to Ms.

02:37:49.737 --> 02:37:54.437
Morell is what's happening to Governor Landry. Now, Governor Landry,

02:37:54.757 --> 02:37:59.877
who was down with this removal of Mr.

02:37:59.937 --> 02:38:06.517
Duncan, of course, has stopped the congressional elections because of the Calais

02:38:06.517 --> 02:38:09.677
decision, which originated out of Louisiana.

02:38:10.937 --> 02:38:14.697
And so, and by the way, that guy Calais, if you haven't heard,

02:38:14.937 --> 02:38:17.677
he was one of the January 6th people.

02:38:19.694 --> 02:38:27.154
Oh, yeah. And so, anyway, now there's a recall petition because in Louisiana,

02:38:27.174 --> 02:38:29.034
you can recall elected officials.

02:38:29.734 --> 02:38:37.754
So there's a recall petition out and it has to get, I want to say.

02:38:38.734 --> 02:38:40.754
A half a million signatures. I don't know.

02:38:41.054 --> 02:38:44.994
It's quite a bit that they have to get. It may not be that much.

02:38:45.114 --> 02:38:50.494
Somebody from Louisiana can correct me on it. But they have to get so many signatures

02:38:50.494 --> 02:38:53.794
for a recall election to be declared.

02:38:54.434 --> 02:39:00.854
And I don't know Louisiana law that well, but I assume that it's the recall

02:39:00.854 --> 02:39:04.474
election is you vote whether you want,

02:39:04.754 --> 02:39:09.674
because what he did in California was, and I think they did the same thing in Wisconsin.

02:39:09.674 --> 02:39:14.014
It was like you vote whether you want to keep the person or not,

02:39:14.034 --> 02:39:17.914
and then you have to vote who do you want to replace that person.

02:39:18.814 --> 02:39:23.994
Now, in California, you had to do it at the same time. I think in Wisconsin,

02:39:24.014 --> 02:39:25.874
they had the recall first,

02:39:25.894 --> 02:39:30.874
and then they had the election about who would replace the governor when he

02:39:30.874 --> 02:39:34.334
was recalled, if he was to be recalled, right?

02:39:34.694 --> 02:39:38.934
Because I think if I remember that was Scott Walker, I think he survived it.

02:39:39.674 --> 02:39:44.774
But in California, governor didn't. That's how Schwarzenegger got elected governor, right?

02:39:45.374 --> 02:39:52.174
So you had to vote to remove the person from the position and then vote for

02:39:52.174 --> 02:39:54.334
who you wanted to replace that person.

02:39:55.074 --> 02:40:01.934
And I'm thinking that there's efforts to do the same thing for Ms. Morrell.

02:40:02.534 --> 02:40:06.494
And what I think is going to happen is if there is a recall election,

02:40:06.494 --> 02:40:09.594
And this is just me guessing.

02:40:10.114 --> 02:40:17.474
But if they if they get a petition against Morrell, I think that one's going to get the signatures.

02:40:18.925 --> 02:40:22.505
We might get enough signatures, too, but I think Morrell's going to get enough signatures.

02:40:23.245 --> 02:40:27.025
I think just the people in New Orleans alone would, because I don't think you

02:40:27.025 --> 02:40:33.245
have to break it down by, I think it just has to be a certain percentage of the voting population.

02:40:33.665 --> 02:40:37.265
I don't think it's divided up by congressional districts and all that stuff.

02:40:38.785 --> 02:40:42.205
Because in Mississippi, like, if you want a ballot on the referendum,

02:40:42.565 --> 02:40:47.565
a referendum on a ballot, I should say, you have to get so many signatures from

02:40:47.565 --> 02:40:50.605
each congressional district. And there's only four in the state.

02:40:50.885 --> 02:40:56.405
So I think you have to get somewhere around 100, 150,000 signatures to get something on the ballot.

02:40:56.565 --> 02:41:03.225
But they've tinkered with that a lot because of the pro-marijuana folks.

02:41:03.805 --> 02:41:09.365
So, and then they put some restrictions on what you couldn't ask a referendum

02:41:09.365 --> 02:41:13.365
for, like ending the right to work laws. Right?

02:41:15.265 --> 02:41:19.365
So, anyway, in Louisiana, they got to get it.

02:41:19.445 --> 02:41:23.845
But I think that if they have a petition drive, I think Morell,

02:41:23.965 --> 02:41:29.365
the signatures would get to Morell, and then they would vote her out.

02:41:30.065 --> 02:41:35.765
Now, you know, outside of the major cities, which is Baton Rouge,

02:41:37.145 --> 02:41:38.545
New Orleans, and Shreveport,

02:41:39.739 --> 02:41:42.859
She might be okay in Alexandria. She might be okay in Monroe.

02:41:43.319 --> 02:41:44.039
You know what I'm saying?

02:41:44.799 --> 02:41:48.999
But if people turn out for a recall vote on her,

02:41:50.419 --> 02:41:56.999
especially when she is literally threatening to fire people for doing something

02:41:56.999 --> 02:42:02.219
within the process, then I think that people are going to vote her out.

02:42:03.679 --> 02:42:07.839
Because she can make the argument she's following the process and Landry can

02:42:07.839 --> 02:42:13.079
vote all that stuff. And so it's like, okay, but you're talking about removing,

02:42:13.459 --> 02:42:17.839
you illegally removed this position for Mr. Duncan.

02:42:18.459 --> 02:42:28.479
And then you turn around and now you want to remove the council people who benefit from Mr.

02:42:28.559 --> 02:42:32.279
Duncan's position because Orleans Parish, New Orleans is the largest city.

02:42:32.279 --> 02:42:39.139
So if you're trying to streamline the caseload, they decided in their wisdom

02:42:39.139 --> 02:42:44.059
that we would have a civil clerk to handle lawsuits and property matters, all that.

02:42:44.359 --> 02:42:47.219
And then you have a criminal clerk to handle criminal cases.

02:42:47.779 --> 02:42:50.839
And in a major city, that makes sense.

02:42:51.479 --> 02:43:01.119
Right? Right. You know, and outside of whatever hair up their butt that they didn't like Mr.

02:43:01.239 --> 02:43:04.979
Duncan being elected by the people because he beat a Democrat.

02:43:05.999 --> 02:43:09.919
It wasn't like he he beat a Republican that was in a position.

02:43:10.059 --> 02:43:11.739
He beat a Democrat that was in that position.

02:43:12.359 --> 02:43:17.859
So you would think, why would the Republicans care about this black man getting

02:43:17.859 --> 02:43:20.379
elected in New Orleans to be the criminal clerk?

02:43:20.899 --> 02:43:22.859
But it's all about pettiness.

02:43:24.219 --> 02:43:28.359
And, you know, so Mr. Duncan's doing his thing.

02:43:28.499 --> 02:43:38.899
So I want y'all to pay attention to that, because that situation in New Orleans is just symptomatic.

02:43:40.307 --> 02:43:46.747
All of the stuff that's happening nationwide, especially in the South, right?

02:43:47.307 --> 02:43:53.867
Because now, you know, it's like, well, at first Georgia said,

02:43:54.107 --> 02:43:55.107
well, we're not going to do anything.

02:43:55.387 --> 02:43:58.307
And then they said, well, we'll do it for the 2028 elections,

02:43:58.327 --> 02:44:04.947
which would mean that this would be the third time in a 10-year span that Georgia

02:44:04.947 --> 02:44:07.587
is voting to redo their maps.

02:44:08.127 --> 02:44:12.847
That's insane. You're only supposed to do it once. And that's after you get a census.

02:44:13.247 --> 02:44:17.807
And it's determined how many congressional seats you will have based on your population.

02:44:18.287 --> 02:44:24.007
And you divide the state up based on how many districts you have. You've been allotted.

02:44:24.527 --> 02:44:27.947
And you do that usually the year after the census.

02:44:28.527 --> 02:44:33.567
And then for the next 10 years, that's how I arrived, right?

02:44:34.507 --> 02:44:40.587
Georgia, if this goes through, this special session that's supposed to happen

02:44:40.587 --> 02:44:44.907
next month, this will be the third time that Georgia would have redrawn the

02:44:44.907 --> 02:44:46.807
maps for congressional districts.

02:44:47.827 --> 02:44:53.407
And God knows what, there's one Congresswoman, Lucy McBath, who has had to run

02:44:53.407 --> 02:44:58.447
in three different locations during the time she's been an author.

02:44:59.767 --> 02:45:02.727
She defeated a Republican and then,

02:45:03.367 --> 02:45:08.607
they redrew the map she won that election then they redrew the map again she

02:45:08.607 --> 02:45:10.507
had to beat a Democratic incumbent,

02:45:11.027 --> 02:45:16.107
because they combined the two and then she beat the Republican again she actually

02:45:16.107 --> 02:45:21.527
did not want to run for real life she wanted to run for governor but circumstances dictated otherwise,

02:45:22.207 --> 02:45:26.847
so she's now have to sit and see what she's going to be running in 2028.

02:45:28.253 --> 02:45:34.153
And Alabama, in the middle of a thunderstorm, a severe thunderstorm,

02:45:34.413 --> 02:45:38.593
where tornadoes and the Capitol actually was flooding.

02:45:39.313 --> 02:45:44.353
Those folks got rid of one district. I don't think they got rid of Miss Sewell.

02:45:44.713 --> 02:45:47.213
They got rid of Brother Figures District.

02:45:47.713 --> 02:45:52.593
And then in Louisiana and Tennessee, they're trying to eliminate.

02:45:52.893 --> 02:45:56.793
Well, in Tennessee, they eliminated the black, the one black district there.

02:45:57.573 --> 02:46:03.433
He's got that fanning out, but I think Brother Pearson has a plan and a strategy

02:46:03.433 --> 02:46:08.013
to still run for that seat and still win.

02:46:08.313 --> 02:46:15.073
Now, the crazy thing that could happen in Tennessee is that now that Cohen and

02:46:15.073 --> 02:46:19.473
Pearson are not running against each other, what you have done is create an

02:46:19.473 --> 02:46:22.393
opportunity for Cohen and Pearson to both go to Congress.

02:46:24.753 --> 02:46:29.753
Because Cohen has been Cone of Corrin. I always miss his name.

02:46:30.173 --> 02:46:34.493
But the gentleman that currently represents Memphis now in the U.S.

02:46:34.553 --> 02:46:39.653
Congress, and he's been there for almost 20 years, he was going to have to run

02:46:39.653 --> 02:46:43.913
against Representative Pearson in the Democratic primary.

02:46:44.193 --> 02:46:49.493
But now what you've done is that you've allowed the current congressman to run

02:46:49.493 --> 02:46:56.633
in whatever district you've drawn for him, that part of Memphis that he's in.

02:46:58.699 --> 02:47:02.499
And you've created a district for Representative Pearson to run.

02:47:03.199 --> 02:47:07.239
And based on what's going on nationally, well, Dr.

02:47:07.359 --> 02:47:11.979
Givens and I was talking about, based on all the confluence of angst and anger

02:47:11.979 --> 02:47:17.039
that people are having, you might end up having two Democrats coming out of

02:47:17.039 --> 02:47:19.179
Tennessee on November the 3rd.

02:47:19.839 --> 02:47:25.819
That's one. And then in New Orleans, in Louisiana, looks like they can't really

02:47:25.819 --> 02:47:29.819
do anything with Congressman Carter's district, but they're basically going

02:47:29.819 --> 02:47:32.139
to wipe out representative fields.

02:47:32.279 --> 02:47:36.339
And so he was saying, well, he doesn't think he's going to win,

02:47:36.339 --> 02:47:39.819
but it's like, I don't know, brother, I think you should run.

02:47:39.819 --> 02:47:45.199
But, you know, you've been, this is like your second stint in Congress,

02:47:45.499 --> 02:47:47.219
representing the state of Louisiana.

02:47:48.919 --> 02:47:54.639
And he basically, you know, every time that he's been put out in Congress,

02:47:54.639 --> 02:47:57.979
it's been because they redrew the line so he couldn't run.

02:47:59.959 --> 02:48:03.459
And so, but this year might be different, right?

02:48:04.079 --> 02:48:10.839
We got some stuff going on in Nebraska where there's this young man who's running.

02:48:11.099 --> 02:48:17.599
He ran for the U.S. Senate two years ago and barely lost to the incumbent, that fisherwoman.

02:48:17.779 --> 02:48:24.479
You remember when Kamala Vice President Harris was swearing in the new senators

02:48:24.479 --> 02:48:29.599
and there was this woman and, you know,

02:48:29.779 --> 02:48:33.179
the woman shook Vice President's hand, but the husband would not.

02:48:33.459 --> 02:48:39.019
Damn, that's that's that's who this guy lost to that woman. Right.

02:48:39.599 --> 02:48:45.639
And so now the other guy, Ricketts, he's up.

02:48:45.819 --> 02:48:48.959
And so Mr. Osborne is going to run against him.

02:48:50.407 --> 02:48:53.847
He's run as independent. He hasn't run as a Democrat. He's run as independent.

02:48:54.307 --> 02:49:00.047
And so there was a lady who ran in the Democratic primary, and she said,

02:49:00.227 --> 02:49:05.667
if you vote for me, I will drop out, and we all get behind Mr. Osborne.

02:49:06.147 --> 02:49:09.627
So basically, she was saying a vote for me is a vote for Osborne,

02:49:09.767 --> 02:49:14.587
and 89% of the people did that. They voted for her.

02:49:15.547 --> 02:49:19.047
So she's dropping out, and so it'll just be Mr.

02:49:19.167 --> 02:49:23.007
Ricketts and Mr. Osborne. Mr. Ricketts is very interesting because his wife

02:49:23.007 --> 02:49:28.367
is running for some position in Nebraska, and she's running in the Democratic primary.

02:49:29.807 --> 02:49:33.987
Anyway, and then there was this other scenario because Nebraska is the only

02:49:33.987 --> 02:49:36.107
unicameral legislature.

02:49:37.367 --> 02:49:44.287
And so in Nebraska, because there's a Republican governor, there was a young

02:49:44.287 --> 02:49:49.547
man that was running for Congress, and he's a state senator.

02:49:50.227 --> 02:49:55.187
And so there was a young lady who's been a party activist who ran against him,

02:49:55.327 --> 02:50:00.667
and she was saying, don't vote for him, vote for me, because if you vote for him,

02:50:00.907 --> 02:50:05.227
then the governor will replace that Senate seat,

02:50:05.687 --> 02:50:07.647
right, with a Republican.

02:50:08.367 --> 02:50:12.347
And we don't want a Republican in that Senate seat. We want to keep the senator

02:50:12.347 --> 02:50:15.887
where he is. So don't vote for the senator to go to Congress. Vote for me.

02:50:16.807 --> 02:50:20.667
And apparently it worked because she won. just barely what she wants.

02:50:22.077 --> 02:50:28.157
So that's, those are the dynamics, just as an example, the dynamics that are happening.

02:50:29.457 --> 02:50:30.997
And what's really crazy, like

02:50:30.997 --> 02:50:34.377
Mississippi's decided, well, Mississippi's already had their primaries.

02:50:35.557 --> 02:50:39.857
So the governor's basically said, well, I want to get rid of Benny Thompson.

02:50:40.077 --> 02:50:42.777
He said that out of his mouth. He wants to get rid of Benny Thompson,

02:50:42.777 --> 02:50:48.677
who's the only black Democratic representative in the state of Mississippi.

02:50:49.277 --> 02:50:53.037
All right. He's the highest ranking black elected official in the site.

02:50:53.557 --> 02:50:58.937
And so the governor said that he wants to get rid of Benny Thompson's seat,

02:50:59.637 --> 02:51:03.417
but we're not going to, he's, you know, the primaries already happened.

02:51:03.417 --> 02:51:06.237
So we're going to redraw the maps in 2027.

02:51:07.377 --> 02:51:09.997
And so in the 2028 election.

02:51:11.553 --> 02:51:18.793
So he was going to call a special session to take away some of the black votes

02:51:18.793 --> 02:51:22.213
that had been added to the Supreme Court districts.

02:51:23.733 --> 02:51:28.753
And there was and there was the reason why that was added was because a Republican

02:51:28.753 --> 02:51:35.493
won in the central district. That's not unusual, even for a district that was,

02:51:35.533 --> 02:51:37.513
you know, basically majority black.

02:51:38.073 --> 02:51:42.193
It's not unusual because we had a Republican Transportation Commissioner for

02:51:42.193 --> 02:51:46.653
a long time because the Transportation Commission and the Public Service Commission

02:51:46.653 --> 02:51:50.373
uses the same lines as Supreme Court districts in Mississippi.

02:51:50.673 --> 02:51:56.253
And so now we've got a black Transportation Commissioner and a black public

02:51:56.253 --> 02:52:00.613
service commissioner running on those same lines. But the guy who had,

02:52:00.753 --> 02:52:02.333
but he had been there for a long time.

02:52:02.493 --> 02:52:05.733
He'd been there since at least 06 or 08.

02:52:05.913 --> 02:52:11.693
I can't remember which Senate race I was running in that he was running simultaneously with me.

02:52:12.413 --> 02:52:17.793
And, but he's, he's been there at the very minimum since 08, right?

02:52:18.433 --> 02:52:21.533
So this lady who had served in the state legislature beat him.

02:52:23.253 --> 02:52:29.433
And so black folks said, obviously, there's not enough black folks in the district,

02:52:29.453 --> 02:52:33.293
so we got to change that map. And so they did.

02:52:34.673 --> 02:52:40.073
Now, Governor Reeves wants to take those black folks away. And so he was going

02:52:40.073 --> 02:52:41.753
to call a special session to do that.

02:52:42.333 --> 02:52:45.553
But then the Fifth Circuit.

02:52:47.086 --> 02:52:54.306
In and said, well, yeah, let's go back to the old map.

02:52:57.626 --> 02:53:02.046
And it doesn't affect the Transportation Commissioner or the Public Service

02:53:02.046 --> 02:53:07.046
Commissioner because they basically ran on the old map and won.

02:53:07.286 --> 02:53:12.986
So, you know, all this is just pettiness personified.

02:53:13.626 --> 02:53:19.326
And that comes from the top down. When you elect petty people in leaderships

02:53:19.326 --> 02:53:20.706
like President of the United States

02:53:20.706 --> 02:53:27.466
and you build this cadre of petty sycophants, you can call it a cult,

02:53:27.886 --> 02:53:30.786
you can call it blind allegiance, whatever.

02:53:32.700 --> 02:53:37.580
What you get. And again, it's all based on white supremacy.

02:53:38.120 --> 02:53:41.080
Point blank, no discussion.

02:53:41.880 --> 02:53:47.740
And you can twist and turn and contort your way around that,

02:53:47.880 --> 02:53:51.040
but it's a reality. It is what it is.

02:53:52.080 --> 02:53:57.720
And for people who got caught up in voting for false promises and all that stuff,

02:53:57.880 --> 02:54:00.220
well, now you realize you made a mistake.

02:54:00.680 --> 02:54:04.660
Whether you openly admit it or not, you made a mistake.

02:54:04.980 --> 02:54:10.680
And so now November 3rd is your first chance to start correcting the problem.

02:54:12.140 --> 02:54:17.060
Because no matter how districts are drawn, people still have to vote for the

02:54:17.060 --> 02:54:19.240
candidates that present themselves for office.

02:54:19.960 --> 02:54:27.700
And if people look at the current legislators that are in these respective districts,

02:54:27.760 --> 02:54:32.940
or if you're creating new districts, whoever the Republicans are out there,

02:54:33.480 --> 02:54:36.900
whoever the Democrats are out there, nine times out of 10,

02:54:37.440 --> 02:54:43.260
based on the crop that's the farm teams that's developing these folks,

02:54:43.700 --> 02:54:47.400
the Democratic candidates are going to be more qualified, and they're going

02:54:47.400 --> 02:54:49.760
to give a damn about you, right?

02:54:50.260 --> 02:54:54.980
So what I see happening is that.

02:54:57.420 --> 02:55:00.340
People are going to, there's going to be a lot of people with their feelings

02:55:00.340 --> 02:55:02.220
hurt and it's not going to be the Democrats.

02:55:03.200 --> 02:55:08.000
The Republicans that do survive are going to barely hang on.

02:55:09.420 --> 02:55:14.860
It's not going to be a blowout. It's not going to be, if you win, it will not be a mandate.

02:55:15.180 --> 02:55:17.600
I promise you that. Promise you that.

02:55:18.580 --> 02:55:22.800
If you win, it'll be by the skin of your teeth because people are angry.

02:55:23.620 --> 02:55:27.540
They are more upset now than they were with Biden.

02:55:29.343 --> 02:55:33.143
Because you said, Mr. President, that you were going to fix things,

02:55:33.263 --> 02:55:35.523
and you've made them absolutely worse.

02:55:36.223 --> 02:55:39.803
And then you keep talking about you want to build a ballroom,

02:55:39.923 --> 02:55:41.343
and you want to build this ark,

02:55:41.543 --> 02:55:48.763
and you want to fix the reflecting pool, repaint it, and now you want to have

02:55:48.763 --> 02:55:52.063
some kind of national garden. Look, man.

02:55:54.183 --> 02:55:58.863
Washington, D.C. is not your palace. It's the people's house.

02:55:58.863 --> 02:56:00.403
It's the people's capital.

02:56:01.243 --> 02:56:04.723
Your job is to be a steward for four years.

02:56:05.063 --> 02:56:08.703
And if the people like you, you get reelected. But since you've been elected

02:56:08.703 --> 02:56:11.223
once before, this is it for you.

02:56:11.943 --> 02:56:16.883
And for those people who are looking for federal judicial positions,

02:56:16.903 --> 02:56:23.123
I don't care if Donald Trump personally handpicked you to do that. If a U.S.

02:56:23.463 --> 02:56:27.543
Senator asks you a question about the 22nd Amendment, you better answer that

02:56:27.543 --> 02:56:32.083
like constitutional law was your was your major in law school.

02:56:32.923 --> 02:56:37.263
Because the president cannot get another term. And if you're too afraid to say

02:56:37.263 --> 02:56:40.763
that, then you should be disqualified from being a judge.

02:56:41.443 --> 02:56:43.483
Period. So anyway.

02:56:44.503 --> 02:56:51.523
All this stuff. Is based on confusion. And for those of us of the Christian

02:56:51.523 --> 02:56:55.083
faith, we know who the origin of confusion is.

02:56:55.723 --> 02:57:05.783
So when somebody said, you know, why would you compare Donald Trump with all these evil people?

02:57:05.783 --> 02:57:11.723
It's like because he's evil in the natural and the supernatural sense, period.

02:57:12.823 --> 02:57:23.043
And, you know, we know that those folks will be dealt with because vengeance is mine, saith the Lord.

02:57:25.445 --> 02:57:32.545
For those of us who want to be instruments of God, then we have to vote these people out.

02:57:33.245 --> 02:57:36.505
There's no other option. They got to go.

02:57:37.245 --> 02:57:42.885
Not unless they repent of their wicked ways, right? They got to go.

02:57:43.825 --> 02:57:47.985
And I believe that a lot of y'all will make sure that they're gone.

02:57:48.785 --> 02:57:54.965
I think people are going to show up in record numbers because they already are

02:57:54.965 --> 02:57:57.585
here in Georgia. I can't attest from anywhere else.

02:57:58.025 --> 02:58:01.025
And they're going to vote these people out.

02:58:01.645 --> 02:58:05.705
We got people that are running that are tone deaf to what's happening because

02:58:05.705 --> 02:58:10.145
they're so caught up in their ideological beliefs.

02:58:10.925 --> 02:58:15.645
We got this guy running for governor and he's comparing himself to Trump.

02:58:15.645 --> 02:58:19.585
And then his opponent is saying, well, Trump actually endorsed me.

02:58:20.085 --> 02:58:23.625
Well, y'all beat each other up in the Republican primary and whoever comes out,

02:58:24.405 --> 02:58:28.545
whether you say that you're like Trump or whether you say you were endorsed

02:58:28.545 --> 02:58:32.565
by Trump, the people are going to say, if you're tired with Trump in any kind

02:58:32.565 --> 02:58:35.185
of way, we ain't voting for you. You're going to lose.

02:58:36.365 --> 02:58:40.305
It's your money. You can spend it however you want to, but you're going to lose

02:58:40.305 --> 02:58:42.105
because people are tired.

02:58:43.085 --> 02:58:48.345
All I'm asking is that You encourage, those of you listening,

02:58:48.505 --> 02:58:53.825
you encourage people to take a stand just like the people in Hungary took the stand, right?

02:58:53.905 --> 02:58:56.285
We talked about that in Dr. Gibbons' interview.

02:58:56.865 --> 02:59:02.085
You know, after 16 years of that foolishness that Trump and those folks want

02:59:02.085 --> 02:59:05.645
to emulate, they said enough's enough, and they voted him out.

02:59:06.465 --> 02:59:13.565
And he did everything he could to try to rig the system, but the people overwhelmed

02:59:13.565 --> 02:59:16.765
and won. and that's what we have to do here.

02:59:16.985 --> 02:59:21.845
We don't have to wait 16 years. We can do this right now on November the 3rd.

02:59:23.555 --> 02:59:32.495
Overwhelm the rig districts. We could overwhelm the unconstitutional legislation.

02:59:33.035 --> 02:59:36.335
We could overwhelm judicial decisions

02:59:36.335 --> 02:59:44.475
because the preamble starts off with three words, we, the people.

02:59:44.915 --> 02:59:46.875
And because of those three words,

02:59:47.035 --> 02:59:51.475
I believe Mr. Duncan is going to get his rightful place in public office.

02:59:51.775 --> 02:59:58.715
I believe the folks in Tennessee will have a Democratic congressman if not to.

02:59:59.235 --> 03:00:03.195
I believe the folks in Alabama will have a Democratic congressman if not to.

03:00:04.015 --> 03:00:10.095
Hell, if the people of Mississippi do their thing, not only will we have a black

03:00:10.095 --> 03:00:11.755
congressman, we will have a black senator.

03:00:12.655 --> 03:00:17.435
Folks in Louisiana will get to. Say the Georgia may have a black governor.

03:00:18.435 --> 03:00:28.855
If people you, the listening audience, we, the people, we show up, we'll win. All right.