Healing Generational Trauma & NCNW Voices Featuring Ingrid Cockhren

0:00 Welcome. I'm Eric Fleming, host of A Moment with Eric Fleming, the podcast of our time. I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast. If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things. First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash amomentwithericfleming. Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak truth to power, and to expand and improve the show. Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously. Third, go to the website, momenteric.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast, leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

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2:00 Hello. Welcome to another moment with Eric Fleming. I am your host, Eric Fleming. So today I have a very interesting show. So I have a singular guest in Ingrid Cochran. And Ms. Cochran is a professor at Tennessee State. She's an author and she's owner of a consulting firm that deals with helping children deal with generational trauma. So we're going to get into that discussion. And I had the privilege of attending the National Council for Negro Women's Convention in Atlanta this past week.

2:43 And so you're going to hear from some of the delegates and why they thought, this particular convention was important. So I'm not going to belabor anything. I just want you all to enjoy the discussion and the viewpoints of those delegates. Please go to www.momenteric.com and support the podcast any way that you can. And now we're going to go ahead and kick this podcast off. And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

3:28 Thanks, Eric. A Mississippi police officer and the interim police chief both resigned following public outcry after the officer fatally shot one-year-old Cohen Wiley in a Walmart parking lot. Russia released retired American teacher Stephen Hubbard from prison as part of preliminary talks with the U.S. aimed at ending the war in Ukraine. A Migration Policy Institute report revealed that the Department of Homeland Security conducted 980,000 deportations in the first 18 months of President Trump's second term. The Trump administration sued Alaska to block the state from preemptively certifying its U.S. Senate race results if the Republican incumbent loses, claiming a second Republican candidate with a nearly identical name was running to confuse voters.

4:16 U.S. congressional candidate Brad Lander was briefly detained by Israeli forces, while acting as a protective observer for Palestinian farmers harvesting olives in the West Bank. The 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the U.S. Constitution does not require the government to grant detained immigrants bond hearings to seek release. A federal appeals court struck down the Federal Switchblade Act, ruling that a federal ban on manufacturing switchblades for interstate sale violates the Second Amendment. The U.S. Supreme Court rejected an emergency request from the Trump administration, maintaining a lower court's hold on a policy that restricts gender-affirming care for transgender federal inmates.

5:02 The U.S. Supreme Court agreed to hear a challenge to an 1868 federal law banning home alcohol distilling after lower federal courts issued conflicting rulings on its constitutionality. The New York City Council voted overwhelmingly to ban horse-drawn carriages from city streets and central parks starting in June 2028, following the death of a tourist. And the CDC reported that total U.S. measles cases reached 4,588, including 479 hospitalizations. I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.

5:48 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for my guest, Ingrid Cochran. Ingrid Cochran is a trauma and human development expert, consultant, and author whose work centers on collective generational and historical trauma. For nearly two decades of experience across education, mental health, child welfare, and nonprofit leadership, She helps organizations and leaders understand how trauma is not only experienced individually, but also transmitted across families, communities, and systems over time. Her approach integrates research from developmental psychology, public health, and epigenetics with socio-ecological frameworks to examine how historical harm becomes embedded in institutions, relationships, and everyday environments.

6:45 Ingrid is the founder of Cochran Consulting and a co-author of Reducing Stress in Schools, Restoring Connection and Community. Her upcoming book, Healing Generational Harm, advances a multidisciplinary framework for understanding and addressing trauma across generations and systems. Through her consulting, writing, and speaking, she challenges the field to move beyond individual-level intervention, towards systemic praxis, reimagining how schools, workplaces, and communities can become sites of regulation, connection, and collective healing. Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest, on this podcast, Ingrid Cochran.

7:43 All right. Ingrid Cochran. How are you doing, Professor? You doing good? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm doing fine. I'm doing fine. I know that you teach at the other Tiger School, Tennessee State. What's the other Tiger School? I went to Jackson State. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I had to mention that, but it's all HBCU love in here. So I wanted to talk to you, and it's real interesting, the timing, because of the subject matter that you deal with. I just had a guest on, and I'll be making some references to that, because a lot of the stuff that y'all talked about, you know, overlap, especially dealing with childhood trauma and all that stuff.

8:30 So I just wanted to kind of pick your brain on that, too. So let's go ahead and get this started. I start off with a couple of icebreakers. So the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to. And the quote is, do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better. Yes. Yeah. This is extremely relevant to my work, especially because kind of the cornerstone of my career is the Adverse Childhood Experiences Study. And we do a lot of work. We put a lot of effort and a lot of money into schools, early childhood, child care.

9:16 And what I found is once people are aware of the ACEs study, then they feel compelled to make changes. And so I think that, well, it's really fitting for the journey that I've had in my career, but also how kind of the social services and also healthcare have kind of, adjusted as the data is coming out about the impact of childhood trauma and also just the overall data that's associated with stress and trauma in general. You're all going in this direction of becoming trauma-informed. So as we know better, we're doing better.

9:57 Yeah. All right. So my next one is what we call 20 questions. So I need you to give me a number between one and 20. 17. Okay. What is something about people who see the world differently than you that you've come to appreciate? So one thing that all of the research shows when it comes to my field in psychology, stress, trauma, is that our lived experiences matter. And what I've found is that whenever someone has a differing opinion or perspective than I do, then it's an opportunity for me to learn from them and also share my own experiences.

10:48 So for me, when those differences arise, it's a learning opportunity. Okay. Let's see. What led you or inspired you to do this work concerning childhood trauma? Yes. So I have my own lived experience. I am a survivor of child sexual abuse that happened about age five. And so my journey really inspired that work. And it's twofold. I was, you know, going through life, kind of just floating through life, really not understanding how my childhood was impacting my adulthood.

11:35 And I was just off track and I had no direction. And I started working at a facility that housed children between the ages of 12 to 18 who were incarcerated. And that experience, working with them closely, really opened up my world to think, you know, what are the experiences that a child has to be at age 12, already having, you know, three felonies or rape or murder? And it, you know, I was really impacted by their stories and their lives and their families. And it forced me to kind of go back to college. And so I went into the field of psychology to understand child development.

12:21 And also one of the things I noticed while I was working with those children is that, you know, 80% of them were African-American children. I live in Tennessee. And so that is highly disproportionate from the population. And so I also was curious about what is it about the African-American experience, that is, you know, kind of root cause to so many children being disproportionately incarcerated. And so those two experiences, my own childhood, along with working with those children, were. You know, shifted my perspective and gave me purpose at a time when I was just kind of floating in the world.

13:02 And, you know, I was able to go back to college. I was researching intergenerational incarceration at first. And through that work, I began to see how much my own worldview was filtered through this kind of white supremacist upbringing that I've had in this country. And so I learned a lot about systems. I learned a lot about human development, and through the lifespan, not just child development, but also the human being and what are the conditions and environments that we need to thrive. I learned about systemic racism, and I was able to put together, a big picture around stress and trauma and how that is more likely to occur in African-American homes in this country.

13:54 And how it's not so straightforward to say, oh, this is bad parenting or this is a cultural issue. We have to look at the big picture and how generational trauma is impacting different communities, how historical trauma from issues like slavery and the Jim Crow era is still impacting the Black community, and how, you know, kind of the systems that are around us impact our development, even though they are invisible to us. And so that experience really transformed how I understand the world, myself, and those children as well. Yeah.

14:34 So this is a little bit off your subject matter, but it's something I think you relate to. Yeah. Have you been following what's been going on in Ohio with the campaign ads and all that stuff? Are you referring to kind of the attack on Amy Acton? Yes, ma'am. Yes, yes, I'm aware that is extremely relevant to the work that I do. But it also, you know, it brings in systems. Yes, it is childhood trauma, but it also brings in systems because often we are not aware of how much, our environments, the systems around us are driven by trauma, rely on trauma to be effective.

15:20 And so it is not... Unusual for childhood trauma to be political. And it's not unusual for attacks against women to be political. And it's definitely not unusual for kind of the more conservative-leaning. Perspective in this country to use tactics such as attacks on women, attacks on children to further their mission. This is not new or strange or unusual in this country. This is something that is systemic and has a long history.

16:04 So if I say that the current political climate has been shaped by the epigenetic inheritance of trauma, you would say yes or no? It's most definitely. We have all of us all people you know trauma is not about race it's about experiences and conditions and so, we have experiences that are two sides of a coin the oppressed and the oppressor, and often when we talk about trauma we talk about it from the lens of the oppressed we say groups who have gone through genocide like the Holocaust or slavery, or overt discrimination have had epigenetic changes, that have led to issues of chronic disease and poor mental health outcomes in our society.

17:00 And that is true. But on the flip side, we often think of the oppressor benefiting from that. We do not see their epigenetic modifications based on the environment as well. And so if you have. Groups, men, for example, with their epigenetic, modifications that go along with living in a society that has catered to you or that you have created that is harmful because it is definitely linked to an intergenerational transmission of a lack of empathy. And what does that do for individual men?

17:42 Well, it definitely will impact relationships, right? So we have this epidemic of loneliness, right, that we're talking about in our society. It will also increase issues of aggression, anger. It will also increase issues of substance use and abuse. And so we don't usually kind of turn that lens back around and say there are also epigenetic modifications and epigenetic inheritance that comes from being the oppressor, that are just it's harmful to health and harmful to a larger society as well. So based on that answer, would you say, would you consider the perpetuation of institutional racism as a factor of trauma for whites in America?

18:29 Most definitely. If we think about the historical lens, the European Americans who were here, right, who were the settlers here in what is now the United States, they came from Europe and they were escaping Europe. For religious persecution and other issues. A lot of them were prisoners. They had also been incarcerated. And some came just for greed and opportunity as well. But that kind of transfer of people out of Europe to all of the different colonies, not just the Americas, is the largest human migration in recorded history.

19:14 And that tells you that Europe wasn't the place to be. You know, they were escaping trauma in that space. And they were, you know, they were choosing to leave because they were being exploited, because of feudalism. Because of the poor conditions in Europe. And they brought their ideology with them, which is that there has to be a hierarchy of power and control. They brought patriarchal systems with them. They brought, you know, hierarchy around wealth and definitely hierarchy concerning skin color. So the trauma that they have experienced in Europe came with them.

20:00 And then we also have the continuation of that once they arrived. All the way up to the Jim Crow era, I always talk about how there's a picture that I use in many of my presentations and talks of a lynching. And I believe it's in Texas. And the young man who was lynched, I want to say that he was, you know, a minor, I believe he was 17. He's on a pier. And then there's like a sea of people around him to witness. And it's considered a picnic. It's considered a joyous occasion. And there is a young white child kind of up in a tree looking down at the body in the aftermath.

20:48 I believe the man who was lynched or child who was lynched was burned. And even though this is considered a joyous occasion, even though that child is not being fed a version of this experience that is harmful. He is still seeing a human body burned. And that is traumatic. And to be told that that situation is joyous, is just that Black men and boys were animals, that they were not human, that is something that he took with him and passed on through generations.

21:28 That is, again, that intergenerational transmission of a lack of empathy that will harm him in his life, but also will be passed along to his children and to his descendants. And that is epigenetic inheritance. And so we often, again, we forget this lens of the other side of the coin. And it's an important lens because we spend so much money, effort, time looking at people of color and determining what's wrong with them or what cultural differences they have. But the truth is that we know exactly what has happened. History has been very clear.

22:11 And what we need to do is, you know, focus our study and efforts and interest, in healing white people so that they are not such a destructive force within our society. That we need to recognize that that's where our efforts should go. If we want to study the impact of racism, we should be studying white communities. If we want to study the impact of patriarchal systems, we should be studying men. It's not, we're looking at, our focus is on the oppressed, which is essentially blaming the victims. So would you say that, would it be fair to say that the enslaved Africans that ended up in the Americas were ambushed with trauma?

22:58 Yes. And I want to be clear. It's not that the enslaved Africans didn't experience trauma in their mother country, right? Trauma is a constant, no matter where you are. However, the amount when trauma, is tied to identity, so you're experiencing this because you are Black, because you are a woman, because you're Hispanic, you know, those kinds of things, it is more likely to be passed on through to other, to future generations. And this is where we get into, you know, again, we talk about it as cultural differences, right? But what we're essentially saying is that one group has been exposed to harsher conditions and environments than others.

23:42 And you can see those differences. We have limited language to talk about it. As people who are just now getting to the point where we are aware of what the impact of trauma and stress are and that we're beginning to get to the point where we are aware that trauma can pass through generations. So I would say that when it comes to the African-American experience specifically, that we have a unique experience in that our experience in America starts with, slavery, which is a massive collective trauma that is kind of the core of our American experience and American culture.

24:23 And that is obvious within the landscape of the country, within the disparities, the statistics, the family structure, what we choose to teach our children, and what we pass on to them about being Black in America. And so I would say that that's kind of a core to the American, Black American experience, a core issue. And I do believe that it is kind of a false narrative because, you know, Black people in general, we have much more to our history than that. And so because it was such a traumatic collective mass trauma, it has kind of stunted our development within the American experience because we have fixated on that as our origin story.

25:18 And it needs to be said that we need to have a better, bigger understanding of our history and background than just slavery as our origin story in America. Yeah, I understand. I understand that that aspect of it, because there were free blacks during that time. And, you know, really, that's, you know, Bacon's Rebellion was kind of, I guess, the gist of or the the event that kind of set in motion, this system in the United States based on race.

25:59 And, you know, that's when the first law started defining what whiteness was, right? And so, you know, but I say, I asked the question about ambush because, yeah, human beings experience trauma. But when you look at the multitude of things that emanated from those who were the slave traders and the slave owners that they were putting on, it was totally... It's totally beyond, in the science fiction world, they say human kin, right? Beyond the comprehension that I never thought that another human being, especially one that doesn't have as much melanin as I do, would be that cruel, right, to the folks.

26:48 And so that's because when we study about the travels, the origin of man's story, whether you're Christian or not, or, you know, whatever religion you believe in, Georgia, man's story comes from Africa. And so when you, you know, those people traveled and populated other parts of the world, you. And their cultures adapted. So they just in their mind and what they knew about the world and what they knew about their people are supposed to act, to be first brought over in chains, survive this torturous boat ride to be sold like a commodity.

27:34 And then put through all it just just the when you say it now, it sounds ridiculous, but this actually really did happen. And it's just really, really hard for people to comprehend what kind of long lasting impact that would have on folks. Yes. And this is a perfect example of what I was saying before about. You know, Europeans coming here with their own. Because when you said, you know, can imagine a group of people being so cruel, this is what they were doing to each other in Europe. They were, you know, all of that medieval torture, the things that they did to the enslaved people here, they learned in Europe, you know, being tarred and feathered, being, you know, torn apart by horses and dogs.

28:24 Like, this is something that they were doing to each other in Europe that they then brought with them and did to the enslaved people and to indigenous people. And so that cruelty was something that they were doing to themselves before they came over. And so this is the perfect example of that. Yes, that is extremely cruel and that it has transformed to be race-based. But let's be clear, they were doing that to each other in Europe, which is one of the large drivers for that mass exodus out of Europe. Like when they say religious persecution, that's exactly what they're talking about. They're talking about putting people in, you know, tubs of hot tar.

29:09 That's medieval torture that's really just persecution, that's what that looks like and so yes it is extremely cruel, And this latest version, or the more modern version, is race-based, but before that, it was religious-based or based in societal hierarchy, not so much about race. They were doing it to each other. And I think that this is something that needs to be discussed more because we've put, again, so much effort and energy into, especially in the sciences, to view people of color as dysfunctional or, you know, dealing with some type of, you know, deficit, right?

29:53 Like poor health outcomes and poor social outcomes and poor educational outcomes. Well, we know root cause, but what does it mean to have a poor moral outcome? And how do we research that? How do we put our efforts and money into solving that issue? All of our efforts so far have been in the wrong direction. Yeah. Okay. So I wanted to shift the focus a little bit back to children. What does the acronym ACE mean, and what are the factors that impact ACE? So the ACE study, it means adverse childhood experiences.

30:37 I will say that this initial study has been, I don't want to say debunked, but it's very incomplete. So they have 10 category of events. Five are kind of direct, more to a one-on-one impact. So physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, and neglect. And then on the other side, we have kind of household dysfunction. So a mother that is experiencing domestic abuse in the home, incarcerated caretaker, a caretaker who is experiencing addiction.

31:17 So these are kind of household issues. And so they had these 10 category of events. And they did a study that was retroactive. So they did the study on adults who had poor health, then to look at the background in their childhood. And so that study was done in the 90s. And it was extremely transformative because, it really brought in an understanding that we didn't have before around health outcomes. So we kind of understood that might have poor mental health or not some good educational or might be more likely to get incarcerated.

32:02 But high rates of cancer or heart disease, that's a little different. And so those health outcomes really set the ACE study upon. Yeah. WB DeBoys said, In 1920, there is no place for Black children in this world. Is that quote still relevant 100 plus years later? I don't believe that it was accurate then. I believe that, again, this kind of African-American experience is short-sighted. It has an origin in slavery.

32:42 But historically, big picture, Black children are the world. Black people are the first people, so there's always space for us. Our American experience has skewed reality for us, which is probably the most sad kind of realization once you are, you know, especially for me as I'm in the work and I begin to see the big picture and I do a lot of research and I have to think about things historically. That is the saddest realization we get such a skewed story about ourselves, and those stories matter because that's how trauma is transferred it comes to the stories of your ancestors and your elders right, and so black children get the story of be careful you can't do what other people do you know this is how you stay safe because you're black or you have to be perfect because they're black, and so these stories are harmful even though they're true and accurate right, because it's not the fullness of the experience it's not the fullness of history, it's not the fullness of reality, yeah you know i think he was.

34:07 You know, when he was when he was saying that it wasn't that he didn't believe, but it was more of frustration. And I think, you know, a lot of times, you know, we look at our experience as parents and the fact that we have to have to talk to our children. Right. And that, you know, we have this wish that we don't want our kids to be exposed to the same kind of stuff that we were exposed to. But we really can't shelter them from it. And then it gives us that kind of moment where it's like.

34:48 It's almost like, I don't know what else to do. And to try to get my child. So I guess that leads me to this question, because this was something that you and one of your co-authors we're trying to address in this book, Reducing Stress in Schools. How does one implement trauma-responsive practices to help our children overcome this trauma? Because we can't shelter them from it. We can't avoid it altogether. You know, I know there were some folks, I was talking to some people the other day and they said, yeah, Black folks moved to the suburbs thinking that they were going to be okay and realize it was worse out there than it was in the city.

35:38 How do you... Give some examples of how we can help our children navigate all this. Yes. So this is, you know, this is kind of my wheelhouse. I am a parent, but even before I was a parent, I've been engaging in parent education for quite a long time. Again, it's kind of that direction, that directionality that we need to address. So if I, as a parent, have a child that I want to prepare for the world, right? I give lots of examples. So you try to teach a child how to swim, you know, sometimes some parents just push you in, right? And you got to have to survive.

36:22 And so that is a strategy, right? And it often works, right? Like you have to figure it out. And then some parents say, you know, I have to spank my child and I have to be more aggressive in my parenting and in my punishment because if I don't do it at home, the police will do it out in the world. And so these are strategies along with kind of the talk about police and the talk about school and how you can't, you're not the same as your white peers and things of that nature. These strategies are just one sided. There's a direction to this. And so instead of talking about how Black children should navigate, we could also talk about the source, right?

37:05 And we need to talk about how the world works, again, through the lens of the oppressor. This group of people, you know, the racists, right, they feel inferior. They feel rage. They are racist. Racism is immoral. It's racist. It is a dysfunctional and deficit view of the world. And that is their problem, right? That's the origin. Now, what does it mean to navigate this? Well, it would be kind of the same as having to navigate any other adversity, right? You have to go through the process of taking people as they are, right? Not everybody is out to get you, but no matter the race, if they are out to get you, then this is how you should act.

37:54 Like, this is how you avoid. This is how you act with kindness, but don't, you know, have your boundaries in the ways that you permit people to interact with you. You don't have to be blindsided by it. But the message to Black children shouldn't be, you have to be perfect. You have to work harder. You're going to experience X, Y, Z. The message to Black children should be, there are bad people in the world. Not everybody wants you to succeed. And that's something that every race, that's, you know, whoever it is out in the world might not want you to succeed, might, you know, might be a bad person, quote unquote.

38:34 And so it's very important that we are explicit about that direction. Racist people are the ones that need to change, not Black children. How do you navigate that? Well, you should always, you know, whatever the values and principles that you're trying to instill in your children, which is usually kindness and acting in a way that is ethical and with integrity. And that's it. That should be the message. But when we get into you're going to have to act this way or you're going to have to act that way, now we're kind of setting up children to adjust. Right. We're setting them up to say, oh, I can't accomplish this or this is not for me or this area of time is not for me or this.

39:23 Course of study is not for me or whatever it is, right, that we kind of laid on there. We have to be intentional about the direction. Where's the source? The source is not you. And you could be perfect. You could do everything right. You might still experience what we're talking about. And so with that understanding, we don't want our children to adjust to a racist society. We wanted them to be aware of the racist side, that the root cause of this issue is the racist side and the racist individuals, as opposed to this is how I can navigate, this is what I need to change about myself. Because often when Black parents, and this is called racial socialization, when they engage in racial socialization that puts the onus of control on the child, you have the the negative impact to their health and mental health, right, and well-being.

40:21 So I'm trying to adjust. I'm going to, you know, be quiet or I'm going to assert myself more or I have to be a perfectionist and study harder than everybody else. All the different ways that that manifests, it's not good for their self, basically for mental health. And instead, again, we shift that responsibility, we shift that understanding to this is where this lives. This is not about you. This is about this group of people who have their own, issues and backgrounds and experiences that have led them to be racist and discriminatory. It has nothing to do with you and what you've done or what you could do.

41:03 There is no way to avoid it. So you don't need to worry about that. You don't need to try to avoid and adjust. And it's more of those principles and values that you want your child to live by, regardless of what the adversity may be. Yeah. All right. So the challenge that I have to end the interview with all my guests this year has been to finish this sentence. I have hope because. I have hope because science is finally catching up with lived experience. So one of the things that I appreciated about the ACEs study is that it was catching up with lived experience. Like, okay, I'm going to be able to do that.

41:52 People who are experiencing racism have poor health outcomes, and they have, you know, all of the gamut of symptoms and disparities. And it had been put into this lens of culture. And so what the ACEs study tells me is that these adjustments, all the ways that people who experience depression are manifesting that depression, be it poor health outcomes or, academic performance or mental health, is our symptoms of a system that they're within. And that's a totally different way of looking at things.

42:32 And that also aligns with lived experience when I have family members who are passing away early, right, who were great people. And then you're thinking, oh, you know, why are so many Black people dealing with health issues, right? And then the narrative is, well, you should eat better. You should exercise more, right? Or, you know, that's the narrative. But now that I have a better understanding, I'm like, oh, this is a metabolic disruption from the environment. It makes it validates what's real in life yeah okay, so if people wanted because we you know we only can stress the surface in a time a lot but if people want to reach out to you.

43:19 And pick your brain a little more. How can they do that? Yes. So I am the owner of Cochran Consulting. And so I can be reached at Ingrid at Cochran Consulting. That's my email. And I'm also on LinkedIn and Facebook. The majority of people who reach out to me are looking for keynotes. They're looking for consulting and strategy in how to address social and institutional issues. So that's the best way to contact you. Yeah. And this book I referred to, Reducing Stress in Schools, that's still out, right? Yes. That book is through Harvard Education Press. And it is focused on reducing stress overall, but my contribution is really focused on Black and minority children.

44:10 And then I have another book coming out called Healing Generational Harm through Jessica Kinsley. And that is focused on understanding collective generational and historical trauma. So, Professor Ingrid Cochran when that book is out the rule is that once you've been a guest you have an open invitation to come back. So when you get that book together let me know and we'll get you back on and we'll talk about that and anything else that's going on as you say in your wheelhouse. But I really, really am glad that we were able to have this conversation. Like I said, the timing is uncanny because, like I said, this is...

44:56 This is an issue that needs to be addressed. And you and the other sister that was on were really on the same point, especially on shifting the focus from just studying us. And, you know, started looking at them. Right. Start figuring out why does their mindset allow them to act the way they act? So I really appreciate the work that you're doing in that regard. All right. And again, I just want to thank you for taking the time out and being on the podcast. Yes, thank you. Thank you for having me. All right, guys, we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

45:54 All right, and we are back. So I had the distinction of, being given media access to the NCNW convention that was held here in Atlanta, the 62nd convening of the National Council for Negro Women. And it really started me pursuing an interview with the president. That could not happen. But, and it's understandable, because Dr. Well, I'd say Dr. Reverend Arlene Bradley is the president of NCNW, and she is like one of the leaders in America as far as voter participation, voter registration.

46:44 And naturally coming to a battleground state like Georgia, little old me was kind of down on the pecking order as far as being given interview access. But, you know, I mean, I understand that. I mean, I went to the Democratic National Convention and you didn't hear me interviewing Kamala Harris or any of the other folks. But at that convention, I did get to interview some of the delegates. And so I used that same approach at the NCNW convention. So what I did was I got together with four ladies and, you know, I just basically asked them two questions.

47:25 What is the importance of the National Council of Negro Women, NCNW? And why was it important? Why was this particular convention important and why was it important to have it in Atlanta? So the next four voices you are going to hear are the ladies who took the time to grab the microphone and answer those two. My name is Regina Shockley. I am from Ohio.

48:08 I am a delegate from Lorain County section of NCNW, and I am the second VP. Well, first of all, I want to say thank you for having me. And the importance is their mission. I mean, we lead, empower, we advocate for women and children of color. And I love their mission and I felt it was extremely important to come here and vote. I thank them for sending me as a delegate to come here and vote for the best leadership on the national level, because that passes down to our local levels with instructions on how we can continue to lead, advocate, and empower for our people.

48:59 Well, as you know, this is an election year, and there's a lot going down, down here in Atlanta. And I do believe it wasn't told to me, but that our presence here would make a difference, in the voting that is going to be going on, because we're having a rally tomorrow, but we've been talking about voting and getting out the votes and encouraging people to vote ever since this year began. And we really have pushed it here in Atlanta this week. So I think that's very important. We helped get this new, I'm sorry, sir, Good evening. I am Dr. Lisa Millsabs Graham. I'm a life member of NCNW's organization, and specifically, I'm the president of the NCNW Flatwood section in Brooklyn, New York.

50:05 NCNW has been around since 1935, but it's been around prior to that, right, in order to establish the footing of what needs to take place here in the United States of America. NCNW is a foundation for not only Black women, but for all colors across the spectrum, in order to make sure that we have a democracy here in the United States. So this particular convention is talking about leading legacy and leaving a lasting impact. And this is the roots and grounds of where MLK, Martin Luther King, as well as several other civil rights movements have started is here in Atlanta, Georgia.

50:54 This is a time right now where it's time to get out and vote. This is the time to learn about voter education. This is the time to learn more about what it is and why there needs to remain a democracy here in the United States. With all of the health equity issues to the education issues that are happening in our society, to our social justice issues, to our economic and entrepreneurship inequities. This is the place to learn boots on the ground, this information. Tomorrow, they'll be going over to the MLK church as well as the home of Martin Luther King Jr.

51:39 This is the time to go back to the history textbooks, go back to the history lessons, the oral histories and learn what, why and how we got to where we are now and what we need to do in order to move forward. As leaders here at NCNW, but also leaders. My name is Kamona Talbert. I'm the president of the Greater Birmingham Section of National Council of Negro Women. Today, it is to educate and strengthen our communities.

52:20 So many people, and I'm not talking about just the younger generation that's coming up, people my age, which I won't say on line right now. But everyone's gotten so comfortable. They think we've already arrived politically, financially, spiritually, that it is an even playing field. They've gotten comfortable And all of the steps that we're being forced to take back And rights that have been really taken away from us To them, it's like, oh, they're not going to do that Oh, there's no big deal And they don't understand the repercussions behind it So for me, and for our section, and for NCNW That's what we're here to strengthen communities We're fighting for people that don't even know they need to fight, And that's honestly not true There's so many people who don't vote who don't think my vote counts They think it sits in this grade They don't understand how important their voice is.

53:07 And if they think about how they're trying to suppress their vote, you know, they will say, wait a minute, my vote is valid. So we are, it's a large organization, but we have spirits everywhere touching all parts of the community. So I can only pinpoint what's most important to me, but there are several key initiatives that we work on year round. It is a battleground state. It is a battleground state. One way it's up north, but the south, so many things are happening. And in the southern states, which are red, that's what it is. And when you looked at how, with the election, with this administration who won previously, oh, they won, they talked a lot of things.

53:48 And then, you know, the election that was supposedly stolen, when you have president, sitting president, telling someone, find me those votes. They want to dismantle civil rights, but they want to do it where civil rights started. So we've got to come back here and remind everyone that's here, you know, yes, you've moved from our traditional communities where everybody looked like us, where we knew all the kids on the street. You know, if a child didn't feel safe, they can go to the house one, two, three, four. They knew. And people need their parents. They don't have that anymore. We've moved to the suburbs and a so-called better life, which is fine. But we lost that sense of community. And so we've got to get it back. And the only way we get it back is to create communities like this, where we come together, not just church, but outside of church, to build it back up into no one another.

54:35 And that's why they're here. That's why we're here. They want this family here. They're going to get a family. My name is Raina Sermon. I am the parliamentarian for the Fayetteville State University section of NCNW. NCNW is important to me, first and foremost, because I'm a legacy of NCNW. My grandmother is in NCNW as well as my aunt. NCNW is important also to the Black community because they advocate for the Black community, for women, specifically men and children, and health equity, social justice, social action, and they bring forth issues that sometimes people the Black community itself on its own can't bring forth.

55:26 Of course, first of all, Atlanta is, at least in my opinion, the second chocolate city. Of course, normally convention is in Washington, D.C., but I think it's important to have it in Atlanta because, this is one of the civil rights capitals of the United States of America, and especially in the time that we're in right now with the Black vote being stripped away from us, it's very important that we come to where our people are and get out there and let them know, like, in C&W, we are here, and we're here to help the Black community, and we're here to bring awareness to the issues that we are having and to put...

56:17 All right, we are back. So I want to thank the ladies who took the time to talk to me at the NCNW convention. And, you know, from what I was able to see and just be a part of, it was very productive. I got to sit in on a couple of sessions. And, you know, they made the most of their time in Atlanta. It was a really good showcase for the women, who are running for office here in Georgia, especially Keisha Linus Bottoms and Penny Reynolds and Tonya Martin, Keisha Waits, Nikki Portia.

57:05 So it was really a good venue for them. And it was just good to see that many, active and engaged black women in one spot. So I want to thank Paris Grisby for making that happen for me. And hopefully, you know, down the road, this will lead to some other things. I also want to thank Ingrid Cochran for coming on and basically continuing the discussion that we had with Dr. Stacey Patton about the concept of trauma and how it's impacting not just black folks, but white folks in America and how it's shaping our politics as well as our culture.

57:54 And I really again want you to follow those ladies and if you had not heard of them before they came on the podcast I hope that you. Your interest was piqued and that you will follow their work, reach out to them and continue to support what they're doing. It was just, it was just great. The way that the schedule worked out that I was able to talk to them as close together. So, you know, this week has been kind of rough for me because I did something I normally don't do a lot. And that's take a vacation.

58:38 And although I did do a podcast last week, that really wasn't my intention, but even in doing the podcast, shout out to Deion Dawson for coming through on that, and I was just trying to get adjusted, trying to get adjusted back to work, trying to get adjusted back to the routine of the podcast and all that, so I meant this week was kind of a struggle, and then a lot of stuff happened. And, you know, a group of podcasters in Atlanta got together for. What is supposed to be a quarterly meeting. And I usually meet new people at that. And shout out to all those folks who are in the podcasting game in the Atlanta area, especially those who showed up.

59:22 Because there's a couple of people that were there that hadn't started a podcast yet, were thinking about it. And so hopefully after what they heard. You know, that they'll go ahead and do that. And there's so many different niches in podcasting and stuff. It's just amazing. It's amazing. And that's really going to be a future of communication. And we'll see how it all goes. There's still not a whole lot of us in the game. But there were more people that looked like me at this event than in prior events. So that was going on. And then my child came to town for a gaming tournament, so I spent time with them.

1:00:10 And they won the tournament that they were favored to win. So it was good to be there for that moment. Yeah, so it was just a lot of stuff going on. And I still was kind of coming back and trying to catch up with what was going on at the job. So I have to admit, it was a struggle this week. But there was one thing that caught my attention that got me back to reality, and got me back to where we are and what the mission is at hand. This dude, Vivek Ramaswamy. You know, this guy popped up, I guess, was it 2016 when he ran that time?

1:00:57 Maybe it was 24. It had to have been 24. I don't think he's been in the game in 10 years. It had to have been the 24 election. And, you know, it was like people were like, who is this dude and all this stuff? And then we found out, you know, he's a billionaire in the 1980s since, in that he had an idea, he got some investors, the idea ended up turning out to be garbage, but he got his money. And so now he's using his money to run for public office. He ran for president. He was a part of Doge. A lot of people forgot that he was like literally the first person fired from Doge.

1:01:45 It was supposed to be him and Elon Musk running the thing, and then he ended up getting run out. So, and now he's running for governor of Ohio. Now, a lot of people thought he had a chance because he's a Republican and Trump, he won the primary easy. And, you know, Trump has won Ohio last three times he's been on the ballot. But so, you know, governors should, outgoing governors, because he's term limited, and the outgoing governor is a Republican who lost to Sherrick Brown, I believe, when ran for U.S. Senate.

1:02:29 First time Sherrick got in there in 06. So, you know, this was supposed to be pretty easy. He was running against this lady named Amy Acton. And Amy was the health director for the state of Ohio during COVID. So that's how she got her statewide name ID. And for all practical purposes, people in Ohio were pretty pleased with how she handled the situation. So it was going to be an interesting race. But as the dynamics of this election year started developing and people were getting upset about affordability. Yes, Mr. President, it's not a hoax. It's real.

1:03:09 You know, I'm stretching my dollars as I can, as much as I can, as well as everybody else. We talked about that at Homecoming. There were some people that couldn't come to homecoming this year because they had to make decisions, right? So those dynamics changed it where Ohio became more competitive than the Republicans thought. And, of course, Sherrod Brown is running again for the U.S. Senate. And, you know, he's doing well. But a lot of people thought he was going to do well because he had been a senator before. And it was kind of like, OK, this is somebody we know, somebody we trust.

1:03:50 We had a moment, you know, a few years ago and we need somebody that knows what they're doing back in there. Right. So it was kind of expected he might squeak it out. But now Amy Acton is beating Vivek Ramaswamy. So Vivek decided he was going to run an ad to show that Dr. Acton was not the honorable person that she projects herself to be. He wanted to run an ad to show that she was a liar. And what better way to do it than to get her mama to come on and say that she was a liar? Now, for those of us who pay attention, who are old, you know, Donald Trump's mama said that he shouldn't be president. But it seemed like America didn't listen to that.

1:04:38 And what makes it worse about Vivek getting Dr. Acton's mama to get on a microphone and call her daughter a liar was the fact that Dr. Acton's mama allowed her husband, who was Dr. Acton's stepdad, to sexually abuse Dr. Acton when she was like 10, 11, 12 years old. And, of course, like a lot of people in that time, they wanted to keep it under, they denied it. They denied that it happened. Now, what ended up happening was that Dr. Acton, her brother, were taken away from her mama because of that.

1:05:22 Because the stepdad actually got indicted by a grand jury for sexually abusing Dr. Acton. And what did the mama do? the mama decided to help her husband flee Ohio. And he remained a fugitive till he died. And, you know, in this day and age, it'd be hard to pull that off. But back when that happened, you know, they made a couple of attempts. But for whatever reason, that joker stayed on the low just long enough where, he didn't get extradited back to Ohio.

1:06:04 And so the mama has always, I guess, harbored a hate for her children for accusing this man of doing what he probably did because the evidence was there, right? The grand jury indicted him. Now, I know the old saying, and based on what's been going on lately with the Justice department and all that, it's, you know, grand jury of a diet and ham sandwich, right? But Dr. Acton says she's a victim. The grand jury agreed with that. And had the man not fled, probably, you know, a lot of people wouldn't think that he did it. But he ran away.

1:06:53 He fled. He didn't take a plea deal. He ran away. He was a fugitive. And the mama went with him. So when people in America started hearing the story, everybody was like, bro, that was some low-down shit that you did right there. That's kind of cold-blooded. Now, there wasn't a terrible backstory in there, and you got Amy Acton's mom would say, don't vote for her. That probably would have been effective. But considering the fact that Dr. Acton had talked about her story prior to that ad even coming to fruition, which probably prompted somebody in Vivek's campaign to say, why don't we get the mama side of the story, right?

1:07:38 Because these people may be evil, but they're not stupid. And she was saying all this about what had happened to her. So it was like somebody in that camp said, let's see if we can track down the mama, which is amazing, which also proves that the times have changed because the authorities can track down the mama when the guy was alive and indicted. But this campaign staff tracked her down. And when she gave her side of the story, the Vex folks said, oh, yeah, we can run this ad, right? Which, again, was a bad judgment call nonetheless. Because I know you don't have a lot of respect for Democrats.

1:08:20 Talking about these Republicans. But it's like, even at that, it's like you got a victim and a person trying to protect the accused going at each other. It's probably not going to be a good look. Nonetheless, with the endorsement of the vice president and the president, and the vice president is from Ohio, by the way, Vivek not only said he's not pulling the ad down, but he put $4 million into running some more. Now, he had been just running the ads on social media when it caught the attention, but now he's running it on TV. And any person you stick a microphone in front of in Ohio, What do you think about that Vivek ad?

1:09:05 Disgusting, creepy. Why would he do that? You know, those are the general comments. It's a shame. So Vivek, I hate to tell you this, brother, but the first race to be called in the 2026 midterm election is going to be yours. It's over. I mean... People have joked about, you know, Donald Trump says something about he ought to thank God for giving him this opportunity. I mean, it's one thing to be out of touch about grocery prices. It's one thing to be out of touch about gas prices. It's one thing to be out of touch about health care costs.

1:09:49 But to be out of touch with reality, to be out of touch with empathy, to be out of touch with common damn sense, whatever votes the Republicans get this year are going to be fueled on two things, hate and luck, period. Because if you follow logic, none of them should be elected to anything. Not this group of folks. Now, a new generation comes in and tries to rekindle the Everett Durskin and John McCain kind of politics. Okay.

1:10:31 But this group, either you got lucky if they win. And if you vote for them, it's just because you hate something. Right? Now, you can make the arguments that a lot of people are voting Democratic because they hate Donald Trump. I think there's a solid block of people that do that, but I think people are not liking the fact that it's tougher on them to live. He gave all this hype. And in the past, people have said, well, my candidate didn't win, but surely America is not going to go down.

1:11:14 It's not going to lose its standing in the world. It's not going to be embarrassed in a foreign war. It's not going to make it a burden to live in this country financially. And in the short time President Trump has been in office, that's what's happened. And I think people that are Democrat, Independent, and Republican are saying, you got to put some brakes on it. And since they can't vote on him ever again, the only way that you can do it is in the midterms. And usually when a president is doing something too much or not doing enough, the midterms is usually when people say we're going to elect to Congress, put a brakes on.

1:11:57 And they're going to get some heavy duty brakes in. And so what Vivek has done is not only killed his chances to win in Ohio, but he has seriously damaged the Republican brand nationally. Because folks think that that's the level when the president and the vice president say, Vivek, you're good, we're with you. Then that sends a message that all the Republicans are down with it. And so the people that say that they're against it, they don't believe them. That's the problem. You know, it's one thing to go after your opponent.

1:12:43 And, you know, I've done it. People have done it to me. You know, that's part of the political process. But there's boundaries, right? If you know somebody did something evil to a child, you don't give them a platform. And although Amy's mom did not rape her, she supported the guy who did. She was neglectful. That's why the children were taken away from her. She failed in her duty to be a parent, which is to protect her children. You don't give somebody like that a platform. No matter how tempting it is, you don't do it.

1:13:29 And, you know, that's just a common thread of decency that navigates its way through any kind of caste system, any kind of political system, any kind of economic system. Just human beings. Like, yeah, bro, I wouldn't have talked to her. Let alone put her on a microphone. Let alone put her on TV. You know, because once the story gets out, I mean, you know, Vivek's taking it like a champ. You know what I'm saying? You know, he's falling on the sword. He's going to live with this decision, but he's going to lose. If there's any seat that's more guaranteed than Roy Cooper in North Carolina or John Ossoff in Georgia, it's Amy Acton in Ohio now.

1:14:21 And it may have swayed the last few folks who were like, I don't know. Yeah. Even the folks in Michigan, right? And God bless Dave Drucker. I forgot who he writes for, but he's been writing for a long time. And Haley Stevens, who I still don't know how she beat out, Mallory McMurray in the primary. Nonetheless, God bless them. But, you know, this election is not about anti-Semitism or Islamophobia.

1:15:06 This election is about the economy. This election is about foolish decisions, that are leading to us having to pay for it in our everyday lives. And we need to elect people that are aware of that and they're going to do their dead level best to fix it, right? Now, whatever else this group of new Democrats, when they get in, they want to do investigations, if they want to do impeachments and all that stuff. Know, you can walk and chew gum at the same time. But the main focus is pushing an agenda that is going to alleviate the pain.

1:15:50 If it's reversing the tariffs that the president is trying to do, that's the easiest thing Congress can do is to stop the tariffs. Because right now, the president is able to get away with it because he's got the weakest speaker of the House in history. But once the Democrats take charge, the tariff stuff is over because Congress actually is supposed to be the body to ratify those, to approve them. And if the president says, oh, we're going to have a tariff on China, some people might be with that, some people might not. But based on the way the economy is going now, this Congress is going to shut that down.

1:16:31 He's not going to be able to implement those because the Congress is going to remind him that falls under our domain. It says so in the document you took the oath to uphold. Now, if he decides to go past Congress, now you're asking for an impeachment trial again. And this time he might get booted out. So if he doesn't want to be impeached, the best thing he can do is just veto stuff. And, you know, and keep it moving and finish out his next two years. But that's not how the president rolls. So just be ready for some fireworks.

1:17:13 But you got to elect a Congress. And in those states that are voting for state legislators as well, especially if there's any states in the South, you might want to change the board too. Because there was some sister that was pointing out, look at all these states that have all these Republicans in the state legislature and all that and look at how much we're struggling. Just set your sights on the federal folks. Pay attention to these state people, too. Because, see, like here in Georgia, you're going to elect Keisha Lance Bottoms, and you feel good about that and all that. But if you don't give her a majority House and Senate, then all she'll be doing is vetoing stuff.

1:17:57 Roy Cooper had to do that when he was governor of Carolina. Forget the gentleman's name in Wisconsin. That was his main job. He was just vetoing all the crazy stuff that Wisconsin Legislature was doing until they switched that up, right? So, you know, and then you got to get them out. If you give them a majority in the state legislatures and you have a Democratic governor, then what they're going to do is try to take power away from the Democratic governor. North Carolina showed you that. Wisconsin showed you that. Right? So just keep that in mind as you're going down. Vote for everything.

1:18:38 I know there's some people saying, well, you know, you can skip this one if you're not feeling it or blah, blah, this, the other. Vote for everything. Pay attention to who's running for everything. Agriculture commissioner. They don't have a farm. Agriculture commissioner determines gas, inspects the gas stations, right? Use gas. You know, they're going to be the front line to see if these people are gouging prices or not at these gas stations. I went for homecoming, right? And I'm going to say this out loud so people in Jackson and other places will pay attention.

1:19:22 So most of the gas in Jackson, especially in Jackson's the majority black city, most of the gas in the city was around anywhere from $3.50 to $3.80 a gallon. Right. But there is one particular chain of gas stations. And it's Don Gabriel or whatever. It was like it was a dollar more than everybody else. So if the gas station across the street or around the corner was three seventy five, then these folks were charging four seventy five. Now, in Mississippi, I know this is a law because I was in the legislature when we passed it.

1:20:03 We passed this law based on what was happening with Katrina. And we made it a law saying that you can't gouge prices at the pump. And we gave the agriculture commissioner the authority to enforce it. Right? So I'm wondering how this particular chain in Jackson is getting around charging a dollar more than everybody else. I don't know what kind of exemption they got. I don't know what kind of gasoline they're bringing in. But they're charging a dollar more than everybody else. In areas where black folks are struggling, you pick up on that.

1:20:45 Now, if you're in the convenience store business, you know that your money is made off of the stuff that you sell in the store, not the gas. The gas is kind of a break-even proposition. It's your lure to get people to come to your convenience store and buy a drink, some candy, some chips, whatever, if they're just going home or going on the highway. Right? That's how Buc-ee's makes their money. They can have 200 and something gas pumps, you know, and the charging stations and all that. You know they're not making money off of those, but they bring you, they get you two Buc-ee's.

1:21:29 Then when you get in, you can get fresh beef jerky or triple meat sandwiches or whatever your preference is, candy, you know, lawn chairs, whatever you need. Right? That's how they make their money, off of the stuff in the store. They get you to the, you need gas if you're on the highway. But once you get through, it's like, man, I need something to eat. You go into Buc-ee's, right? And they're not picking on Buc-ee's. That's just a model for all convenience stores. That's not just them. That's everybody that's in their business. So I'm trying to figure out how these folks in Jackson running these particular convenience stores can get away with charging a dollar more than everybody else at their gas stations, convenience stores, and it's against the law to do it, right?

1:22:25 Well, I ain't, I was personal. And fortunately, I had a car that didn't need a whole lot of gas when I was visiting. So, but driving around, I saw that. And I heard some people in the community talking about it. And I'm just trying to figure out why something hasn't been done. Or as we say in Mississippi, how come ain't nothing been did about that? Right? Right. So, you know, I'm using my platform to ask the question. And hopefully somebody in Mississippi will deal with that, just like how the folks in Ohio are going to deal with Ramoswami and how people across the country, are going to deal with these Republicans.

1:23:12 Because the overall theme in all this stuff is that, oh, by the way, you know, the press secretary only lasted five days, just for the record. So now they're saying that she served a half a Scaramucci. That's the new term. The Scaramucci served 11 days. She served five. So now they're saying she served a half a Scaramucci. I'm sorry, sir. You're still going to be in the lexicon. But at least somebody beat your record. But people were just tired of foolishness, embarrassment, and corruption. Bottom line.

1:23:52 John Ossoff started it when he started talking about this Epstein class of people. DeRico is closing it out by saying this is a battle against corruption. If you want people in office to deal with the issues that you care about, then you got to get the corrupt folks out. And right now, if you think running an ad highlighting a woman who neglected her children is a good thing, you're corrupt morally. If you think supporting a party that can't have somebody competent enough to be a press secretary for a week, that's a corruption in integrity, right?

1:24:38 And then if you want to make deals with people who are bombing our children, who are serving in the military, right? Of corruption financially, let alone all the other stuff that's going on. You got a woman trying to put, this woman tried to put a U.S. Congresswoman in jail and she's getting $50 million in a bribe, $50 million to be a lobbyist so she could get her boss a pardon. That's what we got to get rid of. That's why the first Tuesday in November, 2026, November the 3rd, is an election for good.

1:25:22 We've got to get good people in office to end the foolishness. So anyway, now that I got this off my mind, I think I'm back on track now. I just want to thank y'all for supporting the podcast. Please go to www.momenteric.com. Check out past episodes. I've had a lot of people come to me and say, oh, yeah, man, I heard this. I picked up on this episode, and I didn't know you interviewed that person. That's cool. And this and others. So people are using the website. So check it out. Support podcasts however you can financially. And yeah.