From The Courtyard to Capitol Hill Featuring Charles Gueli, Alexa Morris and Maritza Perez Medina

WEBVTT

00:00:00.609 --> 00:00:06.234
Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

00:00:06.847 --> 00:00:09.251
I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

00:00:09.692 --> 00:00:12.873
If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.

00:00:13.430 --> 00:00:19.502
First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash amomentwitherikfleming.

00:00:20.062 --> 00:00:24.687
Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak

00:00:24.687 --> 00:00:28.015
truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.

00:00:28.706 --> 00:00:33.437
Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you listen to it.

00:00:34.093 --> 00:00:39.575
That will help the podcast tremendously. Third, go to the website, momenterik.com.

00:00:40.057 --> 00:00:43.558
There you can subscribe to the podcast, leave reviews and comments,

00:00:43.807 --> 00:00:47.360
listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

00:00:47.900 --> 00:00:51.975
Lastly, don't keep this a secret like it's your own personal guilty pleasure.

00:00:52.480 --> 00:00:57.182
Tell someone else about the podcast. Encourage others to listen to the podcast

00:00:57.511 --> 00:01:02.437
and share the podcast on your social media platforms, because it is time to

00:01:02.437 --> 00:01:04.379
make this moment a movement.

00:01:04.913 --> 00:01:10.253
Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

00:01:15.897 --> 00:01:20.549
The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

00:02:00.590 --> 00:02:05.670
Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

00:02:06.808 --> 00:02:10.955
So today I have three guests. We were supposed to have four,

00:02:10.955 --> 00:02:17.221
but Jody Freeman, who I hope that we can get on later, wasn't feeling well.

00:02:18.075 --> 00:02:23.335
And she let me know early enough where I could make some adjustments.

00:02:23.335 --> 00:02:28.606
But as far as promoting the show, so if you've been following social media,

00:02:29.715 --> 00:02:35.180
You see that I was putting her on, showing her as a guest, but she's not going to be on.

00:02:35.850 --> 00:02:39.031
And we hope to get her on later on.

00:02:39.835 --> 00:02:45.279
She was one of the people that I had to change the schedule, as you know.

00:02:45.592 --> 00:02:49.505
And we had rescheduled for this episode and it didn't work out.

00:02:49.505 --> 00:02:55.281
So hopefully, Attorney Freeman, Professor Freeman will grace us with her presence.

00:02:56.164 --> 00:03:01.714
Because I think she really is somebody dynamic that y'all need to hear from.

00:03:02.504 --> 00:03:05.994
But I do have Charles Gueli.

00:03:07.254 --> 00:03:14.310
Who is a retiree, and he's 80 years old, and he's been watching what's happening

00:03:14.310 --> 00:03:17.730
with ICE over the last year or so, and he got activated.

00:03:17.730 --> 00:03:23.240
And so he decided to write a book to try to fix the federal government dysfunction.

00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:27.268
And the name of the book is Fixing Federal Dysfunction. And so he's going to be on.

00:03:27.600 --> 00:03:33.630
Alexa Morris, who co-authored this beautiful book with this gentleman named

00:03:33.950 --> 00:03:36.568
Benjamin Parket, who happens to be her father-in-law.

00:03:37.061 --> 00:03:42.620
It's called The Courtyard, and it's a story about his experience during the

00:03:42.620 --> 00:03:44.679
Holocaust. He is a Holocaust survivor.

00:03:45.324 --> 00:03:48.940
And Maritza Perez Medina.

00:03:49.277 --> 00:03:55.731
Maritza is the, basically, she's the lobbyist for the Drug Policy Alliance on Capitol Hill.

00:03:56.602 --> 00:04:00.240
And so she's going to be talking about the work that they're doing and why it's

00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:06.163
important to have of drug reform and criminal justice reform in the United States.

00:04:07.010 --> 00:04:11.010
So it was a good show anyway, and Ms. Freeman was just going to be the cherry

00:04:11.010 --> 00:04:15.300
on top. But like I said, we'll get her on later on.

00:04:16.220 --> 00:04:20.492
So I thank y'all for that. I thank y'all for listening. Appreciate y'all's support.

00:04:20.858 --> 00:04:25.409
If you would, go to www.momenteric.com.

00:04:27.031 --> 00:04:33.581
Where you can donate or subscribe to the podcast and, you know,

00:04:33.581 --> 00:04:36.263
find out some neat stuff about me or whatever.

00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:45.041
You know, but again, in this day and age, we need to support as many independent

00:04:45.041 --> 00:04:49.191
podcasters as we can, especially those of us who are black,

00:04:50.002 --> 00:04:54.491
who are out here trying to do the work and get information out there,

00:04:54.491 --> 00:04:59.998
especially the few of us who are really dealing with the news and the politics of the day.

00:05:00.364 --> 00:05:07.241
So I appreciate y'all listening, and I would encourage you to do more,

00:05:07.357 --> 00:05:10.184
and not just with me, but with others like me.

00:05:11.217 --> 00:05:15.271
All right, so with all that housekeeping out the way, let's go ahead and get

00:05:15.271 --> 00:05:20.546
this program started. And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

00:05:27.740 --> 00:05:33.047
Thanks, Erik. President Trump used a primetime address to revive unfounded election

00:05:33.047 --> 00:05:38.560
grievances and release classified documents to justify pushing the Save America Act.

00:05:39.082 --> 00:05:44.727
South Carolina Governor Henry McMaster appointed Darlene Graham Nordone to temporarily

00:05:44.727 --> 00:05:48.437
fill the Senate seat left vacant by the sudden death of her brother,

00:05:48.437 --> 00:05:49.926
Senator Lindsey Graham.

00:05:50.460 --> 00:05:54.647
ICE officials in Maine fatally shot an unauthorized immigrant worker,

00:05:54.647 --> 00:05:59.493
Johann Sebastian Duran Guerrero, who was not the target of their warrant.

00:06:00.027 --> 00:06:04.697
Attorney General nominee Todd Blanche faced bipartisan Senate scrutiny during

00:06:04.697 --> 00:06:06.070
his confirmation hearing.

00:06:06.611 --> 00:06:12.007
CDC Director nominee Erica Schwartz frustrated senators by refusing to state

00:06:12.007 --> 00:06:17.048
whether she would defy Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. on vaccine science.

00:06:17.605 --> 00:06:22.657
Shredded iceberg lettuce from a California supplier for Taco Bell is the suspected

00:06:22.657 --> 00:06:27.135
source of a massive multi-state cyclosporiasis outbreak.

00:06:27.698 --> 00:06:33.297
The U.S. House defeated an amendment to cut off $3.3 billion in annual aid to

00:06:33.297 --> 00:06:37.329
Israel, despite receiving support from 103 Democrats.

00:06:37.926 --> 00:06:43.527
New York enacted a one-year moratorium on the construction of large new AI data

00:06:43.527 --> 00:06:48.132
centers to evaluate their strain on the power grid and local resources.

00:06:48.706 --> 00:06:54.941
A federal appeals court ended a 1960s desegregation mandate for a Louisiana school district.

00:06:55.608 --> 00:06:58.938
The New York Times is fighting federal grand jury subpoenas,

00:06:58.938 --> 00:07:03.278
issued to three journalists who reported on security flaws in President Trump's

00:07:03.278 --> 00:07:05.930
new Qatari-donated Air Force One.

00:07:06.516 --> 00:07:12.298
Supreme Court Justices Amy Coney Barrett and Elena Kagan urged Congress to approve

00:07:12.298 --> 00:07:17.435
a budget increase for court police to counter a sharp rise in threats against the justices.

00:07:17.952 --> 00:07:22.778
The Trump administration finalized a rule imposing fixed time limits on visas

00:07:22.778 --> 00:07:26.937
for foreign students, cultural exchange visitors, and journalists.

00:07:27.506 --> 00:07:33.578
And civil rights leaders announced an August 2026 March on Washington to protest

00:07:33.578 --> 00:07:37.455
recent court decisions weakening federal voting rights protections.

00:07:37.780 --> 00:07:41.472
I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.

00:07:48.535 --> 00:07:54.533
All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. Now, it's time for my

00:07:54.853 --> 00:07:57.506
first guest, Charles Gueli.

00:07:58.233 --> 00:08:03.166
Now, this is going to be interesting. So, I talked to Mr. Gueli,

00:08:03.950 --> 00:08:06.733
and he said, read it as I wrote it.

00:08:08.213 --> 00:08:11.402
So, this is my intro for Charles Gueli.

00:08:12.135 --> 00:08:17.633
Mr. Gueli says, I am 80 years old and retired. In July 2025,

00:08:17.633 --> 00:08:22.439
I had occasion to be in my car for one and a half hours a day for 28 days.

00:08:23.347 --> 00:08:28.443
By chance, I listened to NPR on the radio and was appalled by the way Latino

00:08:28.443 --> 00:08:31.114
immigrants and others were being abused by the government.

00:08:32.133 --> 00:08:37.823
That led me to looking at podcasts on YouTube, which led me to reading the ACLU

00:08:37.823 --> 00:08:39.877
summary of Project 2025.

00:08:40.373 --> 00:08:47.027
I was angered and terrified. I felt I had to do something, and my son suggested writing a blog.

00:08:47.460 --> 00:08:50.647
I've written more than 200 daily posts since mid-November.

00:08:51.194 --> 00:08:56.965
The research for those convinced me that there are solutions to every condition that needs fixing.

00:08:57.564 --> 00:09:02.233
So I put several of the posts together and organized them into a book called

00:09:02.233 --> 00:09:04.651
Fixing Federal Dysfunction.

00:09:05.276 --> 00:09:10.393
And so, ladies and gentlemen, me and Mr. Gueli are going to talk about the

00:09:10.393 --> 00:09:13.502
book, Fixing Federal Dysfunction.

00:09:14.367 --> 00:09:21.037
So it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast, Charles Welling.

00:09:32.210 --> 00:09:37.626
All right. Charles Gwely. Is it Gwely or Gwely or Gwely?

00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:44.277
Gueli. Gueli. Okay. Charles Gueli. How are you doing this morning? So you're doing good?

00:09:44.973 --> 00:09:50.039
Yeah, I am doing. I'm very good today. Well, glad to have you on the podcast

00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:54.592
because you wrote this book called Fixing Federal Dysfunction.

00:09:54.945 --> 00:09:58.899
That's just the title alone. It's like, really? That's what you wanted?

00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:05.329
You wanted to pursue that. Okay. So what I normally do to kind of start the

00:10:05.329 --> 00:10:08.830
conversation off is I do a couple of icebreaker exercises.

00:10:09.393 --> 00:10:13.352
So the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.

00:10:13.961 --> 00:10:19.829
And the quote is, a federal government that cannot act effectively will lose

00:10:19.829 --> 00:10:22.117
the confidence of the people it serves.

00:10:23.359 --> 00:10:26.659
Yeah, the people lose trust.

00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:32.149
The institutions have to function properly in order for the people to trust them.

00:10:32.625 --> 00:10:37.671
And that goes through to, it applies to all three level parts of the government.

00:10:38.651 --> 00:10:45.790
Okay. All right. So now the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.

00:10:46.542 --> 00:10:49.636
So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

00:10:50.505 --> 00:10:56.439
15. All right. Your question is, when you think about the challenges our country

00:10:56.439 --> 00:10:58.604
faces, what gives you hope?

00:10:59.758 --> 00:11:03.119
Well, that's kind of a multi-part answer.

00:11:03.459 --> 00:11:11.022
I hope, number one, that the current administration has caused a lot of.

00:11:12.741 --> 00:11:20.229
Organizations to form for the purpose of having people communicate with government.

00:11:20.848 --> 00:11:28.051
And I worry that once the administration changes, that those organizations may

00:11:28.051 --> 00:11:31.781
not feel that they are still needed.

00:11:31.781 --> 00:11:36.751
And I believe that the current situation isn't,

00:11:37.471 --> 00:11:45.098
it's a result of the dysfunction, which has been getting worse for probably 40 or 50 years,

00:11:45.602 --> 00:11:52.130
and that in order to fix those basic dysfunctions, we're going to have to maintain

00:11:52.554 --> 00:11:55.791
citizen participation in the democratic process.

00:11:56.168 --> 00:12:03.497
So I'm hopeful that those organizations do not disband once the administration changes. Yeah.

00:12:04.230 --> 00:12:07.211
All right. So you're 80 years old. Is that correct?

00:12:07.844 --> 00:12:15.071
Yes, it is. And Fixing Federal Dysfunction is your first book that you've written, right?

00:12:15.892 --> 00:12:23.104
Actually, I wrote a book in 1993, small. It was called How to Cope with Change.

00:12:23.772 --> 00:12:30.435
And it was a learning experience, as was this one, actually.

00:12:32.351 --> 00:12:37.581
So my question is, so this is your second book. What inspired you to write this

00:12:37.581 --> 00:12:42.414
book at 80? Why did you feel you had to write this particular book?

00:12:42.984 --> 00:12:50.591
All right. Well, before last summer, I was among the great majority of citizens

00:12:50.591 --> 00:12:54.691
who are very complacent and just participate when it comes time to vote.

00:12:55.312 --> 00:13:00.761
And that was my entire adult life. But last summer, I had occasion to be in

00:13:00.761 --> 00:13:03.763
the car for an hour and a half a day and,

00:13:04.801 --> 00:13:10.600
And I listened to NPR just by chance. I happened to get them on the radio station.

00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:15.920
And they were talking at that time about what was happening to the immigrants

00:13:15.920 --> 00:13:19.350
and families being separated and so on.

00:13:19.730 --> 00:13:21.790
And it really bothered me.

00:13:22.470 --> 00:13:28.220
So I started looking for things, podcasts and things.

00:13:28.220 --> 00:13:34.580
I found several on YouTube that gave me more information. I wanted to find out

00:13:34.580 --> 00:13:40.060
more about what was going on after those NPR programs I listened to.

00:13:40.560 --> 00:13:49.992
So I did that for a while. And then in November, I actually considered running for Congress.

00:13:51.150 --> 00:13:56.464
But I decided after giving that more thought, I decided that wasn't a good idea,

00:13:56.754 --> 00:14:00.753
mainly because it wouldn't get the word out past my local district.

00:14:01.357 --> 00:14:08.228
And my son, one of my sons suggested starting to write a blog.

00:14:09.134 --> 00:14:14.810
So in mid-November, I started writing a blog about all different aspects of

00:14:14.810 --> 00:14:18.080
the government and also the economy.

00:14:18.527 --> 00:14:20.110
And it's a daily blog.

00:14:20.590 --> 00:14:23.455
I've sent out over 200 posts at this point.

00:14:24.005 --> 00:14:30.332
And the research in doing those blogs convinced me that there were solutions

00:14:30.744 --> 00:14:37.100
to the dysfunction in Washington and that there are other places where a lot

00:14:37.100 --> 00:14:38.748
of the solutions already exist.

00:14:38.923 --> 00:14:42.436
Some countries in Europe have failed.

00:14:43.826 --> 00:14:50.405
Governments that run pretty smoothly. And there are states, some states and

00:14:50.405 --> 00:14:54.378
some municipalities that have solutions to some of these issues also.

00:14:55.045 --> 00:14:59.784
So I thought, you know, my just trying to get,

00:15:00.405 --> 00:15:06.055
dates for talking to people like yourself and going to libraries and other places

00:15:06.055 --> 00:15:10.725
to give talks about the information I was collecting, I thought,

00:15:11.549 --> 00:15:19.505
writing a book would allow me to get more exposure, to send it to more sources,

00:15:19.934 --> 00:15:23.424
and to meet people like you, and also,

00:15:24.775 --> 00:15:30.544
to use as an excuse or a lead-in to have talks locally.

00:15:30.950 --> 00:15:37.158
And I think that it's been functioning fairly well in that respect. Okay.

00:15:38.714 --> 00:15:43.703
So, excuse me, because of your research, you feel that government,

00:15:43.703 --> 00:15:49.008
dysfunctional government is not inevitable or irreversible, that it can be fixed.

00:15:49.362 --> 00:15:52.699
Correct? That's correct. Yes. Okay.

00:15:54.053 --> 00:16:00.763
Excuse me. So we don't have the time really to go in through every item in the

00:16:00.763 --> 00:16:04.853
book because you've packed a lot of stuff in that book.

00:16:04.853 --> 00:16:09.953
It's not a big book, y'all, but it's very detailed as far as his,

00:16:10.433 --> 00:16:13.989
you know, Mr. Gueli's ideas and thoughts.

00:16:14.459 --> 00:16:17.223
But I do want to share some of your solutions during the interview.

00:16:17.223 --> 00:16:22.203
So we'll deal with some of the hot topics that's on the news.

00:16:22.203 --> 00:16:23.885
So let's start with gerrymandering.

00:16:24.430 --> 00:16:28.723
How would you address this issue that the U.S. Supreme Court has basically given

00:16:28.723 --> 00:16:33.295
its blessing to, especially gerrymandering for political reasons?

00:16:34.347 --> 00:16:35.313
Well, I think.

00:16:37.353 --> 00:16:42.203
That's the function of the states, and I'm not very optimistic that you're going

00:16:42.203 --> 00:16:45.101
to get all the states to get rid of gerrymandering.

00:16:45.838 --> 00:16:53.683
The the simple solution would be for congress to pass a bill or an amendment

00:16:53.683 --> 00:16:59.153
that would that would get rid of gerrymandering and make it you know for independent,

00:17:00.016 --> 00:17:05.473
commissions to select districts that are strictly on a population basis and

00:17:05.473 --> 00:17:11.593
not on any kind of political affiliation The other thing that might help is

00:17:11.593 --> 00:17:14.095
to go to ranked choice voting,

00:17:14.664 --> 00:17:23.974
which is being used to a degree in Maine and Alaska so far, and that would create less of a...

00:17:25.298 --> 00:17:29.140
Voting by party kind of thought process.

00:17:29.883 --> 00:17:37.950
It would rank the candidates and you'd end up with, or what's happening in Maine

00:17:37.950 --> 00:17:42.828
anyway, is that you end up with more moderate people being elected.

00:17:45.073 --> 00:17:45.450
Those are.

00:17:46.981 --> 00:17:52.060
I'll say that's all I've come up with so far regarding how to get rid of gerrymandering.

00:17:52.780 --> 00:17:57.266
Well, that's a good start because one of the things you were saying you would

00:17:57.266 --> 00:18:03.473
hope that Congress would pass a law is your concern that if Congress does pass a law,

00:18:04.198 --> 00:18:09.699
man is saying that every state should have an independent commission.

00:18:11.106 --> 00:18:14.481
Are you afraid that some states would challenge that in court,

00:18:15.286 --> 00:18:18.846
you know, saying that violates our state rights and all that stuff?

00:18:19.664 --> 00:18:23.039
Yeah, I expected that would happen. And.

00:18:25.844 --> 00:18:32.594
If it passed through the court process, then it would be universal, 50 states.

00:18:32.849 --> 00:18:37.775
The other thing that could happen is what Hawaii did.

00:18:37.978 --> 00:18:42.368
Other states could duplicate that. But again, that's not going to be all of the states.

00:18:43.566 --> 00:18:48.895
To get rid of corporate money out of the campaigns, that would be very helpful.

00:18:49.743 --> 00:18:55.896
Yeah. So a couple of those things, the taking the corporate money out and the

00:18:55.896 --> 00:18:58.500
rank choice voting, you had stated that,

00:18:59.458 --> 00:19:06.698
those were some steps also to make Congress more of an active lawmaking body again.

00:19:07.302 --> 00:19:11.847
Outside of those, what else do you think needs to be done to make,

00:19:12.522 --> 00:19:14.711
get Congress back to being Congress again?

00:19:15.339 --> 00:19:18.265
We got to get rid of the campaign financing the way it is now.

00:19:18.595 --> 00:19:24.852
There are five countries in Europe that have public campaign financing,

00:19:25.380 --> 00:19:31.626
and I've run some numbers, and to do that in this country, there are a couple of options.

00:19:32.006 --> 00:19:36.008
One is to have mandatory public funding.

00:19:36.946 --> 00:19:42.782
It would be $15 per taxpayer, $30 if you file jointly.

00:19:44.047 --> 00:19:51.899
And that would provide enough funding to do all of the federal and governor

00:19:52.219 --> 00:19:56.301
elections, but nothing lower than that.

00:19:57.023 --> 00:20:01.932
And the other option is to raise the corporate tax by 1%.

00:20:02.420 --> 00:20:06.414
That would bring in pretty close to $5 billion a year for the purpose.

00:20:07.070 --> 00:20:12.693
But I think there's a psychological benefit to the public doing it. You know, right now,

00:20:13.814 --> 00:20:18.928
The public pays the salaries of the people in Congress, but nobody thinks about that.

00:20:19.729 --> 00:20:24.978
But if they were to do the campaign funding as well, and they get reminded that

00:20:24.978 --> 00:20:28.303
they're doing that every time they file an income tax return,

00:20:28.846 --> 00:20:34.328
I think that psychologically they would consider themselves and the people in

00:20:34.328 --> 00:20:40.700
Congress would also consider them as the boss, you know, and they would act more like it.

00:20:41.497 --> 00:20:43.707
And I think that would be a big benefit.

00:20:44.618 --> 00:20:49.201
But campaign financing is crucial. That's got to change.

00:20:49.817 --> 00:20:55.148
And the citizens have to participate more and communicate with Congress.

00:20:55.148 --> 00:20:57.607
Those two things are absolutely essential.

00:20:58.526 --> 00:21:05.829
And you also think that if ranked choice voting was in all 50 states, that you.

00:21:07.578 --> 00:21:14.638
Would assume that the voting public would select more civic-minded,

00:21:14.638 --> 00:21:17.491
more moderate politicians,

00:21:18.558 --> 00:21:21.238
and therefore they would be more productive.

00:21:21.818 --> 00:21:23.377
That's kind of your thought process?

00:21:24.043 --> 00:21:29.821
Yeah, it is. And it apparently is what's been happening in Maine and Alaska.

00:21:30.268 --> 00:21:35.078
I don't know if it would make them more productive, but it would make them more

00:21:35.078 --> 00:21:39.638
capable of debate instead of this extreme polarization that exists now.

00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:47.138
Okay. What ideas do you have to create affordable housing? Because for those

00:21:47.138 --> 00:21:52.582
of y'all listening, if you really want to get a lot of ideas going at your...

00:21:53.673 --> 00:21:59.288
Bridge Club or at the diner and all that stuff, you really need to read what Mr.

00:21:59.288 --> 00:22:03.198
Gueli has written because he's thrown out a lot of ideas. I just want you,

00:22:03.198 --> 00:22:08.888
sir, to share some of the ideas that you've had because the housing issue seems

00:22:08.888 --> 00:22:11.075
to be something that you're really, really keen on.

00:22:11.874 --> 00:22:15.528
Yeah, well, because it's pretty universal. I mean, it's everywhere.

00:22:15.528 --> 00:22:19.558
I know in my area right here, I'm on the eastern end of Long Island,

00:22:19.558 --> 00:22:24.828
and there's a lot of grandchildren that have moved off of Long Island and can't

00:22:24.828 --> 00:22:28.725
be near their families because they can't afford to stay here.

00:22:29.406 --> 00:22:38.158
And I think some of the solutions have to do with building costs and municipalities

00:22:38.158 --> 00:22:42.306
getting involved in funding some of the,

00:22:43.198 --> 00:22:47.077
opportunities to have affordable housing built.

00:22:48.094 --> 00:22:52.358
I think that the government definitely has to focus on it.

00:22:54.117 --> 00:22:59.038
They just passed a bill, and I'm not really familiar with all of the ins and

00:22:59.038 --> 00:23:03.368
outs of that bill, but I understand it was pretty substantial,

00:23:03.368 --> 00:23:08.500
and it should do a lot to helping the housing situation.

00:23:10.021 --> 00:23:10.281
I think.

00:23:12.581 --> 00:23:18.541
There are houses that can be more efficiently designed so that they're less

00:23:18.541 --> 00:23:23.651
expensive to maintain and better use of space.

00:23:23.941 --> 00:23:28.708
They don't have to be extravagant houses. They could be pretty modest in size,

00:23:29.010 --> 00:23:30.866
but still remain pretty functional.

00:23:31.390 --> 00:23:36.841
So design might be a helpful element to solving the problem.

00:23:36.841 --> 00:23:40.781
So off the top of my head, I can't think of anything else at the moment,

00:23:41.002 --> 00:23:46.241
but I'm pretty sure that, and there are all different kinds of housing too,

00:23:46.241 --> 00:23:50.897
you know, between rentals and co-ops and condos and single family homes.

00:23:51.384 --> 00:23:58.711
And I think zoning restrictions could be changed to make it easier for more

00:23:58.711 --> 00:24:02.240
modest homes to be built rather than big homes.

00:24:02.895 --> 00:24:06.361
Yeah. Well, like I said, you wrote most of your ideas down.

00:24:07.561 --> 00:24:13.831
The book, which is very helpful. So I think, you know, people reading the book

00:24:13.831 --> 00:24:17.961
will get a good sense of the focus that you put on there. But there was one

00:24:17.961 --> 00:24:22.370
thing you had mentioned the housing bill. How do you feel about.

00:24:23.750 --> 00:24:28.470
The language that would say that corporate companies,

00:24:29.010 --> 00:24:34.340
investment companies, all that stuff, they would be prohibited from buying or

00:24:34.340 --> 00:24:41.252
restricted as far as buying homes that are supposed to be for families and residents.

00:24:42.031 --> 00:24:46.890
Yeah, thank you for reminding me about that. Yeah, private equity firms have

00:24:46.890 --> 00:24:49.458
really hurt a lot of people.

00:24:49.846 --> 00:24:54.040
The way they work is, well, first of all, they're very wealthy.

00:24:54.040 --> 00:24:55.385
There's a lot of money involved.

00:24:55.803 --> 00:25:00.580
And they could, not only with the residential communities where they buy up

00:25:00.580 --> 00:25:04.861
entire, say, mobile home communities or apartment communities,

00:25:05.477 --> 00:25:14.094
and then they could raise the rents and the inhabitants are at a great disadvantage.

00:25:14.429 --> 00:25:18.643
And a lot of them have to relocate because of private equity firms.

00:25:19.061 --> 00:25:24.180
They also do that with retailers, and they've done it with hospitals,

00:25:24.180 --> 00:25:26.860
which has really hurt the ability

00:25:26.860 --> 00:25:31.360
of people in rural areas to get medical attention when they need it.

00:25:32.170 --> 00:25:38.090
The way they work is that they buy either a chain, a retail chain,

00:25:38.430 --> 00:25:40.770
Toys R Us are a prime example.

00:25:40.770 --> 00:25:50.207
Toys R Us was a financially stable and thriving retailer and a private equity firm bought them up,

00:25:50.811 --> 00:25:56.251
and to buy them, they borrowed money from a financing institution.

00:25:56.692 --> 00:26:03.750
And they applied the loan to the Toys R Us company. So the Toys R Us then had

00:26:03.750 --> 00:26:08.410
to pay the interest fees and pay the loan back.

00:26:08.750 --> 00:26:16.896
And they eventually couldn't cope with that and had to file for Chapter 11 after two or three years.

00:26:17.453 --> 00:26:21.210
And the same thing happens with hospitals where hospitals end up,

00:26:22.385 --> 00:26:27.349
closing because they can't handle the debt and they go belly up.

00:26:29.106 --> 00:26:35.596
The equity firm took the borrowed money and gave most of it to shareholders,

00:26:36.077 --> 00:26:38.845
and the rest of it they might have put into,

00:26:39.445 --> 00:26:46.485
the business, but they probably did it by choosing new suppliers and,

00:26:47.245 --> 00:26:51.497
having equipment and supplies that are,

00:26:52.556 --> 00:26:56.265
of a lesser quality than what used to be there and,

00:26:57.785 --> 00:27:00.942
they also may have to raise the.

00:27:03.394 --> 00:27:10.871
Well, the deterioration of the situation also ends up with people losing their

00:27:10.871 --> 00:27:16.699
jobs until finally the hospital or the business closes.

00:27:17.445 --> 00:27:25.911
And it's really a terrible situation. And it was caused by the antitrust laws

00:27:25.911 --> 00:27:30.034
being modified during the Reagan administration.

00:27:30.947 --> 00:27:37.821
Yeah. Yeah. And your fear is that that'll happen in the housing market,

00:27:37.821 --> 00:27:42.413
that these private equity firms will buy so many of these houses and then,

00:27:43.656 --> 00:27:46.512
they'll have to liquidate them and all that stuff. And.

00:27:49.561 --> 00:27:53.189
It may be too costly for average people to buy the homes.

00:27:54.621 --> 00:28:01.421
Yeah, that is a concern that I have. I believe one aspect of the new bill that just got passed is that,

00:28:03.496 --> 00:28:09.311
they are prohibited from buying more than 5% of the homes or the residences

00:28:09.311 --> 00:28:11.842
within a certain square area.

00:28:12.630 --> 00:28:20.681
And that should prevent that from lowering the values of the houses in the future.

00:28:21.643 --> 00:28:24.781
That's something that's really, really prevalent here.

00:28:25.101 --> 00:28:29.791
And I'm based out of Atlanta. And so that's something that is really,

00:28:29.791 --> 00:28:33.871
really, I guess, for lack of a better term, epidemic here.

00:28:34.921 --> 00:28:39.033
And so that's why Raphael Warnock, the senator from Georgia,

00:28:39.208 --> 00:28:44.221
was really pushing that and got that in the bill because he's seen it firsthand

00:28:44.221 --> 00:28:45.627
what's going on down here.

00:28:46.853 --> 00:28:51.963
What is the cost of apathy, and how can we end public complacency?

00:28:54.361 --> 00:29:02.029
I think there are people like you and other podcasters that I've seen on YouTube,

00:29:02.627 --> 00:29:05.213
that instill enthusiasm,

00:29:06.544 --> 00:29:13.653
and keep the public somewhat engaged a lot more now than before 2015.

00:29:14.888 --> 00:29:24.196
And as I said earlier, I'm a little concerned that that peters away to some degree after 2028.

00:29:25.013 --> 00:29:33.493
But I think the concern of the population now and the atrocities that go on with what ICE has done,

00:29:34.273 --> 00:29:41.693
and the detention centers, I think that is what is instilling a lot of citizen

00:29:41.693 --> 00:29:43.147
participation at the moment.

00:29:43.768 --> 00:29:51.961
And hopefully we won't have those, call them incentives, to participate after 2028.

00:29:52.269 --> 00:29:57.913
And we're just going to have to try to change the culture and just inform people that,

00:29:58.902 --> 00:30:04.193
they have to get informed initially and then stay informed and then communicate

00:30:04.193 --> 00:30:07.281
with their people in Congress, their representatives.

00:30:08.351 --> 00:30:12.011
And I think the message has to keep going out. One thing that would help,

00:30:12.554 --> 00:30:19.716
but I'm not very optimistic about it happening, is something akin to FDR's fireside chats,

00:30:20.338 --> 00:30:27.191
where the next administration might have a half hour weekly TV show where they

00:30:27.191 --> 00:30:28.911
talk about what's going on.

00:30:29.531 --> 00:30:37.591
Or maybe a reply to requests that they got from citizens, just inform the people,

00:30:38.291 --> 00:30:44.061
and then remind the people that they should let Congress know what's on their mind.

00:30:44.696 --> 00:30:50.631
Something like that would go a long way to keeping the participation going. I think.

00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:59.322
If it only lasts five years or less, we'll end up going back to what happened

00:30:59.496 --> 00:31:05.279
and this has really got to be a culture change and i have 11 grandchildren so,

00:31:06.491 --> 00:31:08.650
i have a you know a stake in the game,

00:31:10.409 --> 00:31:18.454
indeed you do so you know i guess like to for where we are now you were saying the fireside chats,

00:31:19.075 --> 00:31:23.001
i guess it wouldn't hurt because we used when i was growing up you know the

00:31:23.001 --> 00:31:28.539
president had a weekly address on public radio and all that kind of stuff.

00:31:29.282 --> 00:31:33.990
So I guess a podcast, if say the president decides to have a podcast every week,

00:31:34.218 --> 00:31:39.481
and then that way it's like if people don't catch it live, then they can listen

00:31:39.481 --> 00:31:40.791
to it at their own leisure.

00:31:41.291 --> 00:31:46.306
And like you said, maybe it'll generate some interest, keep people interested.

00:31:47.601 --> 00:31:57.621
But since you're in Long Island, so you've got a good view of what Mayor Mamdani is doing.

00:31:58.138 --> 00:32:05.271
Do you feel that, does he fall under the concern that you have as far as political

00:32:05.271 --> 00:32:11.513
extremism? Or do you think his kind of politics is what will get people excited and stay involved?

00:32:12.656 --> 00:32:18.721
I i i think the latter and i'm hope i'm hoping that that's the case and,

00:32:19.661 --> 00:32:25.861
one thing that that bothers me is the throwing around of names you know like

00:32:25.861 --> 00:32:31.551
socialist communist and other names i think politicians but on both parties

00:32:31.551 --> 00:32:34.341
they do things like that uh just to,

00:32:34.801 --> 00:32:38.284
frighten people and to get them to think the way they want them to think.

00:32:38.990 --> 00:32:45.761
I think that the population has to ignore the name calling and just look at

00:32:45.761 --> 00:32:51.497
the issue itself to determine whether or not it's an issue that would benefit

00:32:51.661 --> 00:32:53.059
the population at large.

00:32:53.460 --> 00:32:56.624
And if that's the case, then support it.

00:32:57.861 --> 00:33:02.661
And if it's something that's not going to benefit the population, then don't support it.

00:33:03.441 --> 00:33:08.241
And then communicate that to your congressman. All right. So I got a couple

00:33:08.241 --> 00:33:09.799
more questions before I let you go.

00:33:10.380 --> 00:33:14.786
Why is education a foundation for civic engagement?

00:33:15.714 --> 00:33:18.695
Well, you know, young people...

00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:25.880
I think it's 18 to 25. They don't vote. Of course, they're probably in college

00:33:25.880 --> 00:33:28.934
and they've got other concerns. It's a different part of their life.

00:33:29.700 --> 00:33:36.106
But they also, civics isn't taught anymore in high school or grammar school.

00:33:36.571 --> 00:33:42.940
And I think there are a great many of them would have more of an interest in

00:33:42.940 --> 00:33:45.164
it if they were getting educated about it.

00:33:45.675 --> 00:33:50.700
I think, I don't know this for sure, but I saw something on the news a few months

00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:54.703
ago where some interviewer on the streets of, I think it was New York,

00:33:55.700 --> 00:33:59.314
was asking people if they knew about what the three...

00:34:00.564 --> 00:34:06.284
Parts of the government were. And there were a pretty good percentage of people,

00:34:07.024 --> 00:34:09.487
that couldn't identify all three parts of the government.

00:34:10.188 --> 00:34:15.734
So, you know, things like that were troublesome to me. And I just think civics

00:34:15.734 --> 00:34:20.713
has to be part of the education for the first 12 years. Yeah.

00:34:21.813 --> 00:34:27.506
When a person finishes reading your book, what do you want them to take away from it?

00:34:28.322 --> 00:34:31.624
Well, the last part of the book was just the suggestion.

00:34:32.204 --> 00:34:36.694
And I went through the exercise and I found it almost entertaining.

00:34:36.694 --> 00:34:38.057
I mean, I enjoyed doing it.

00:34:38.568 --> 00:34:42.934
And the first four parts of the book convey a lot of information.

00:34:42.934 --> 00:34:48.794
And with that information, I think people have the ability to determine what

00:34:48.794 --> 00:34:52.588
they would like to see and what they might even,

00:34:53.250 --> 00:34:59.244
think about doing if they could imagine themselves in a position of authority and,

00:35:00.164 --> 00:35:05.374
lay out an actual step-by-step list of priorities to take to address,

00:35:05.374 --> 00:35:07.411
to be addressed by the government.

00:35:07.881 --> 00:35:12.944
And that way, they could do a few important things. They could evaluate the

00:35:12.944 --> 00:35:17.984
candidates before anybody is elected and communicate to the candidates,

00:35:18.304 --> 00:35:20.026
possibly sway thinking.

00:35:20.924 --> 00:35:27.254
And then after people are elected, they could also either encourage or complain

00:35:27.254 --> 00:35:30.426
about what's not being done that they feel should be done.

00:35:31.083 --> 00:35:34.612
Okay. So how can people, Mr. Gueli, get this book?

00:35:35.727 --> 00:35:43.927
Well, it's on Amazon, Amazon.com. But, you know, this computer process of self-publishing

00:35:43.927 --> 00:35:50.688
was a little alien to me. And I ended up creating what I now refer to as a draft copy.

00:35:51.452 --> 00:35:57.187
And I ended up correcting everything. And I put out a second edition,

00:35:57.187 --> 00:35:59.529
which is the copy that you have.

00:36:00.201 --> 00:36:05.767
And I just want to alert people that if they go to Amazon for the book,

00:36:05.767 --> 00:36:09.990
they should definitely only consider the second edition.

00:36:10.713 --> 00:36:15.677
The information in it is essentially the same, but there were a lot of layout

00:36:15.677 --> 00:36:19.815
issues on the first try that I was unhappy with.

00:36:20.518 --> 00:36:26.027
That's cool. All right. So if people wanted to reach out to you, how could they do that?

00:36:26.918 --> 00:36:31.847
Readily available by email. I check my email four or five times a day because

00:36:31.847 --> 00:36:34.977
I'm involved in some other community stuff here. And, you know,

00:36:34.977 --> 00:36:37.067
there's reasons why I have to stay in touch.

00:36:38.088 --> 00:36:46.632
My email address is GueliDad, that's G-U-E-L-I-D-A-D, at gmail.com.

00:36:47.251 --> 00:36:53.667
Well, Charles Gueli, first of all, let me commend you for staying engaged and,

00:36:54.547 --> 00:37:01.218
using your elderly wisdom to try to educate some folks out here about politics.

00:37:01.786 --> 00:37:08.447
And one of my rules is that, excuse me, whenever you have been on the show,

00:37:08.447 --> 00:37:10.117
you have an open invitation to come back.

00:37:10.117 --> 00:37:14.057
So if you decide to write another book, please feel free to reach out to me

00:37:14.057 --> 00:37:19.057
and we'll get you back on. But Charles, thank you so much for doing this and

00:37:19.057 --> 00:37:20.723
thank you so much for being on the show.

00:37:21.386 --> 00:37:24.330
I really appreciate you having me, Mr. Fleming. Thank you.

00:37:25.147 --> 00:37:29.527
Thank you for what you said. Yes, sir. All right, guys. We're going to catch

00:37:29.527 --> 00:37:30.603
you all on the other side.

00:37:50.806 --> 00:37:55.825
And we are back, and so now it is time for my next guest, Alexa Morris.

00:37:56.521 --> 00:38:00.426
Alexa Morris grew up in the suburbs of Washington, D.C., dabbling in several

00:38:00.426 --> 00:38:05.106
jobs, including being a page for the United States Senate, before choosing the

00:38:05.106 --> 00:38:07.812
world of nonprofits where she remains to this day.

00:38:08.392 --> 00:38:13.106
When she married Ben Parket's daughter and learned of his Holocaust survival

00:38:13.106 --> 00:38:17.030
journey, she became determined to help him turn his story into a book.

00:38:17.565 --> 00:38:22.279
That book, The Courtyard, and was published by Amsterdam Publishers.

00:38:22.819 --> 00:38:28.402
Alexa lives with her family in Northern California and is currently at work on her first novel.

00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:33.732
And so our discussion will be based off of this book called The Courtyard.

00:38:34.259 --> 00:38:37.966
So ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a

00:38:37.966 --> 00:38:41.948
guest on this podcast, Alexa Morris.

00:38:54.002 --> 00:38:59.471
Alexa Morris, how are you doing? I'm doing very well this morning. How are you doing?

00:38:59.714 --> 00:39:04.359
I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I am glad that we were able to get this interview together.

00:39:05.602 --> 00:39:09.066
I had told my listeners because of the situation at my real job,

00:39:09.658 --> 00:39:14.102
I had to adjust all the schedules and you were one of the people I had to reschedule.

00:39:14.102 --> 00:39:19.451
So I was really, really glad I was able to get you because this is a really beautiful book.

00:39:20.469 --> 00:39:25.889
It's very similar it was another lady i think her name was Pauline Steinhorn if i remember,

00:39:26.754 --> 00:39:31.349
i know Pauline yeah yeah and so she had written a similar book and it was but

00:39:31.349 --> 00:39:36.327
you you had a different tact it was like hers was based off uh journals,

00:39:37.429 --> 00:39:41.174
and yours was actually the guy was recounting his stories,

00:39:41.818 --> 00:39:45.754
and it's just fascinating it's just fascinating to me that a person,

00:39:46.352 --> 00:39:51.719
could remember all those details like that that that and so that makes the book

00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:53.079
really really compelling,

00:39:53.549 --> 00:39:57.329
hard to ask questions about it but i'm going to navigate through there because

00:39:57.329 --> 00:40:00.959
it was it was just it was just a good read no well thank you for saying that

00:40:00.959 --> 00:40:04.832
yeah it's a beautiful beautiful story but since,

00:40:05.464 --> 00:40:10.289
it's it's similar to what miss Pauline did i'm gonna i'm gonna give you this

00:40:10.289 --> 00:40:14.770
to start off, I'm going to give you the same quote that I asked her to respond to.

00:40:15.438 --> 00:40:20.575
And the quote is, the lessons of the Holocaust are not Jewish, but universal.

00:40:20.988 --> 00:40:24.198
And unfortunately, the lessons remain relevant today.

00:40:25.782 --> 00:40:29.729
Who said that, by the way? Where's that quote from? I pulled it off.

00:40:30.369 --> 00:40:35.589
I got to go back. I can't remember who did it, but I pulled it off. It's true. It's true.

00:40:36.469 --> 00:40:41.336
Yeah. Well, Google knows everything and it's true. It's a very true statement, unfortunately.

00:40:41.713 --> 00:40:44.989
And they're broader than just, you know, relating to anti-Semitism.

00:40:45.449 --> 00:40:51.435
It's just a broader lesson about what we're doing with immigration and all sorts of things right now.

00:40:51.733 --> 00:40:56.091
Yeah. All right. So now my next icebreaker is called 20 questions.

00:40:56.596 --> 00:41:00.549
So I need you to give me a number between one and 20. Hmm.

00:41:01.129 --> 00:41:04.056
Let's go with eight. Okay.

00:41:04.666 --> 00:41:10.219
What is one thing you hope the current administration will do or not do during

00:41:10.219 --> 00:41:11.597
the remainder of their term?

00:41:12.925 --> 00:41:13.785
One thing?

00:41:16.629 --> 00:41:22.005
Well, you know, the situation with ICE is pretty troubling and on my mind these

00:41:22.005 --> 00:41:24.366
days with the two recent killings.

00:41:24.853 --> 00:41:30.985
And I'll pick that as something that I think needs to stop right away because,

00:41:31.485 --> 00:41:37.915
to me, it ties very much into the theme of the book and how we treat people

00:41:37.915 --> 00:41:39.565
that come to our country, because,

00:41:41.165 --> 00:41:45.073
the protagonist of my book, my father-in-law, who I had dinner with last night,

00:41:45.479 --> 00:41:50.125
was among other things also, his family was an immigrant to his country of France.

00:41:50.125 --> 00:41:55.665
And what we're doing now feels very counter to the spirit of the people that

00:41:55.665 --> 00:42:01.664
helped Ben and his family in his book, in his story. So I would like heist to go away.

00:42:03.615 --> 00:42:08.685
Yeah yeah i think you know and it part of my my background story is that right

00:42:08.685 --> 00:42:13.705
after i left the legislature i worked for an immigrants rights organization,

00:42:14.945 --> 00:42:21.129
and you know i just the the process that people have to go through the fees,

00:42:21.761 --> 00:42:27.258
you know it's like there's a the old saying is there's a better way to run the railroad.

00:42:28.585 --> 00:42:34.655
And I think, you know, that, and that's been almost 20 years ago and it hasn't gotten any better.

00:42:34.655 --> 00:42:41.235
And so I, I think that, you know, I personally think a boss ICE needs to be

00:42:41.235 --> 00:42:45.415
abolished and we could get into a whole nother podcast about that.

00:42:45.415 --> 00:42:49.243
But I, you know, I, I feel there are sentiments about that because it,

00:42:49.730 --> 00:42:54.572
it doesn't make any sense for us, a country that's been based on immigration,

00:42:55.445 --> 00:43:03.700
to lack the political will or to let it get to a point where it's like people

00:43:04.101 --> 00:43:07.485
feel they have to do extreme things to address the problem.

00:43:08.090 --> 00:43:12.293
I agree. All right. So what compelled you to write this book?

00:43:13.214 --> 00:43:18.626
Well, my father-in-law, who Benjamin Parket, who I wrote the book with,

00:43:19.056 --> 00:43:20.663
he wanted to write a book.

00:43:20.804 --> 00:43:25.583
So he wanted to write his story, but he had really struggled to find a way into it.

00:43:26.076 --> 00:43:30.534
And it was actually my partner, his daughter, who put us together and said,

00:43:31.014 --> 00:43:34.684
you know, said to me, I know you want to write. You like to write.

00:43:34.684 --> 00:43:39.334
And my dad has a story to tell. And I think that you two should work on it.

00:43:39.634 --> 00:43:42.914
So in some ways, it was very much just a family project. You know,

00:43:43.534 --> 00:43:46.274
I wanted to help him bring his story to life.

00:43:46.543 --> 00:43:52.194
But then the more I learned about his story, I just felt like there was a lot there.

00:43:52.694 --> 00:43:56.754
It's a quiet book in many ways. It's not as dramatic as many stories of the

00:43:56.754 --> 00:44:00.001
Holocaust, but I think that's what makes it special.

00:44:01.583 --> 00:44:05.624
And it makes this story beautiful, actually, because it's a story of people

00:44:05.624 --> 00:44:10.684
doing the right thing in a time of real evil and darkness, which is not the

00:44:10.684 --> 00:44:14.338
typical story you hear when you're reading about the Holocaust.

00:44:15.006 --> 00:44:20.655
I like that description, a quiet book. And that's perfect as far as,

00:44:21.102 --> 00:44:25.134
because you just, you go into the story, even when, you know.

00:44:26.694 --> 00:44:32.134
The Nazis occupy France, It's just kind of like, you know, it's not as traumatic

00:44:32.134 --> 00:44:35.981
as you would think, but it is life-altering.

00:44:36.974 --> 00:44:42.169
And so, you know, the way that he was recounting things, it was just,

00:44:42.564 --> 00:44:44.625
again, it's an amazing story.

00:44:45.457 --> 00:44:49.784
And it leads me to many survivors of the Holocaust are reluctant to tell their

00:44:49.784 --> 00:44:52.194
stories, but it seems like Mr.

00:44:52.194 --> 00:44:57.926
Parkett, And that's an interesting nuance, too, because his name is Parkette,

00:44:58.582 --> 00:45:01.996
but his family is Parkiet. Is that how you?

00:45:02.513 --> 00:45:05.700
I think it's Parkiet, but I'm honestly not sure. Yes.

00:45:06.939 --> 00:45:10.425
Yeah, that's just a strange thing that I think it happens a lot,

00:45:10.913 --> 00:45:14.969
or it used to happen more maybe. But his family all immigrated from Poland to

00:45:14.969 --> 00:45:18.109
France before he was born, and he was the only one born in Paris.

00:45:18.919 --> 00:45:21.473
His two older brothers and his parents had immigrated previously,

00:45:21.821 --> 00:45:23.679
and it was just recorded incorrectly.

00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:27.069
Like the eye was just dropped on his birth certificate, and it was during a

00:45:27.069 --> 00:45:30.959
time when you didn't correct such things. And so he always has had a different

00:45:30.959 --> 00:45:35.341
name from his historic family name. No.

00:45:35.852 --> 00:45:39.929
Yeah. But he was, but he, he wasn't reluctant in telling his story.

00:45:39.929 --> 00:45:45.919
So why, why do you think that he, well, I mean, well, why, why do you think

00:45:45.919 --> 00:45:49.806
he wanted to tell the story as compared to say some other survivors?

00:45:51.725 --> 00:45:56.205
I would have to guess a little bit, but I'm pretty sure that it likely comes

00:45:56.205 --> 00:46:00.955
down to the fact that his story is actually not as traumatic as a lot of people's stories.

00:46:00.955 --> 00:46:08.225
I think that there are so many survivors that endured or witnessed such horrific,

00:46:08.225 --> 00:46:14.467
inhumane acts that you don't know how to process that. You just shove it down inside.

00:46:14.902 --> 00:46:19.605
And his story, you know, there's trauma there. You know, he was in hiding for

00:46:19.605 --> 00:46:23.655
over two years. There was a lot of fear and there was a lot of terror,

00:46:23.655 --> 00:46:25.229
certainly, that his parents experienced.

00:46:25.595 --> 00:46:29.665
But also, to a degree, he was protected from a lot of that because he was 9

00:46:29.665 --> 00:46:35.562
to 11 years old and he, his parents, he was the youngest, so his parents really tried to insulate him.

00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:42.205
So I think that's one reason why. And I think, you know, he's one of the last survivors.

00:46:42.805 --> 00:46:46.305
We really are, that generation is dwindling and is almost gone.

00:46:46.305 --> 00:46:48.133
He's going to be 93 next month.

00:46:48.312 --> 00:46:54.785
And I think he really wanted to, and I know that he really wanted to leave his

00:46:54.785 --> 00:46:57.935
story behind for his children and his grandchildren.

00:46:57.935 --> 00:47:03.984
I mean, as I spoke with him, I learned more about his life than his kids had heard.

00:47:04.344 --> 00:47:08.845
So it wasn't, he had talked about it openly, but he had never talked about it

00:47:08.845 --> 00:47:13.399
in the detail that he shared in writing this book.

00:47:13.717 --> 00:47:17.421
And I think it was important to him to capture that. Yeah.

00:47:18.567 --> 00:47:20.195
All right. So the name of the book

00:47:20.195 --> 00:47:24.732
is called The Courtyard. So what is the significance of The Courtyard?

00:47:26.204 --> 00:47:32.094
So the courtyard is a real courtyard in Paris. It's at 5 Rue des Chirones.

00:47:32.094 --> 00:47:34.300
It's in the 11th arrondissement.

00:47:34.730 --> 00:47:40.584
And the courtyard is where Ben both was born and lived and grew up.

00:47:40.584 --> 00:47:43.864
And then we're also where he hid with his family during the war.

00:47:45.241 --> 00:47:50.938
So it's really like the literal and figurative heart of the book.

00:47:51.234 --> 00:47:56.834
Because the people that lived in that courtyard, which was mostly a business courtyard.

00:47:56.834 --> 00:48:00.114
It was mostly a center for woodworking. So most of the people that were there

00:48:00.114 --> 00:48:04.364
during the day would leave at night, but there were a number of families that

00:48:04.364 --> 00:48:09.240
lived in the area that his family lived in, in one corner of the courtyard.

00:48:09.850 --> 00:48:15.614
And those are the people that came together during the war and when the Nazis

00:48:15.614 --> 00:48:19.260
came and occupied Paris and protected him and his family.

00:48:19.486 --> 00:48:22.804
So it really all comes down to the courtyard, you know,

00:48:23.504 --> 00:48:29.154
and and the people in it yeah because that it was it was it was like all of

00:48:29.154 --> 00:48:31.955
them were some kind of artisans in some kind of way,

00:48:32.415 --> 00:48:38.814
because i think ben's dad was like a varnisher if that was yeah yes so you know

00:48:38.814 --> 00:48:43.044
so they all kind of each had a skill set that they would cooperate with each

00:48:43.044 --> 00:48:46.664
other and on different projects and all that kind of stuff um,

00:48:47.459 --> 00:48:51.391
Yeah. So it's like, it's just that central spot where everybody was.

00:48:51.861 --> 00:48:57.199
I forget the lady's name that was the rent, that was renting a place, Madame something, but.

00:48:57.699 --> 00:49:03.009
Ramon. Yeah. The Ramons. Yes. She, it was like, she was an imposing figure for

00:49:03.009 --> 00:49:05.517
a woman and all that stuff. I thought that was pretty cool.

00:49:06.699 --> 00:49:10.599
Yes. Of course. Yeah. You know, nine years old, it's like, really?

00:49:10.599 --> 00:49:12.759
Wow. You know, I can imagine. Yes.

00:49:13.699 --> 00:49:16.119
Yeah. Yeah. Especially when he was a toddler, I think he was really,

00:49:16.119 --> 00:49:20.431
really scared of her, but, but, but she had a heart of gold, you know, really. So.

00:49:20.716 --> 00:49:26.086
Yeah. One of my favorites parts of the story was the broken glass where,

00:49:26.999 --> 00:49:32.329
you know, I guess he had kicked a soccer ball into, you know, he, he's from Europe.

00:49:32.329 --> 00:49:36.559
So he called it football, but he kicked a soccer ball and broke a window.

00:49:37.582 --> 00:49:38.999
And that led to his dad.

00:49:41.379 --> 00:49:46.799
Explaining a Jewish tradition to him about the significance of broken glass.

00:49:46.799 --> 00:49:51.049
And I thought that was really, really cool. And I could imagine as a child that

00:49:51.049 --> 00:49:54.222
would leave a lasting, lasting impression on somebody.

00:49:55.111 --> 00:49:59.870
When you were helping Mr. Parket tell the story, how were your emotions swayed,

00:50:00.403 --> 00:50:08.861
especially from 1937 Bastille Day celebration to the eventual occupation of Paris by the Nazis?

00:50:09.620 --> 00:50:13.951
I mean, I was learning about not just his story for the first time,

00:50:13.951 --> 00:50:19.891
but also the history of France during the war, because I just had only kind

00:50:19.891 --> 00:50:21.521
of a cursory understanding of World War II.

00:50:21.521 --> 00:50:24.401
I knew the basics, but I didn't really understand France's role,

00:50:24.401 --> 00:50:30.061
how France collaborated with the Nazis, how much the French government participated

00:50:30.061 --> 00:50:35.081
in the arrest and, you know, and putting people into camps.

00:50:35.081 --> 00:50:37.538
I mean, it was really the French police who did that.

00:50:37.903 --> 00:50:41.661
So it was, you know, interesting very much.

00:50:41.661 --> 00:50:46.161
And it was also pretty heartbreaking. I mean, the story particularly of Ben's

00:50:46.161 --> 00:50:51.781
father, who was one of the earliest men arrested and taken to a camp outside

00:50:51.781 --> 00:50:54.475
of Paris called Drancy, a camp that

00:50:54.911 --> 00:50:59.334
would then become the main French gateway to Auschwitz.

00:50:59.671 --> 00:51:05.128
That was pretty heart-rending to understand what he had endured for the time that he was there.

00:51:05.407 --> 00:51:11.647
But at the same time, when I was learning all of these pretty terrifying and tragic details.

00:51:12.348 --> 00:51:18.420
At every step, I was also hearing about how somebody stepped in with kindness

00:51:18.733 --> 00:51:23.811
or how somebody intervened in a way that actually saved them.

00:51:23.811 --> 00:51:27.841
I mean, even that particular story with Joseph, Ben's father,

00:51:27.841 --> 00:51:31.411
being taken to a camp and being in a camp for several months,

00:51:31.751 --> 00:51:33.865
like near starvation, extremely ill.

00:51:34.143 --> 00:51:38.001
Many people died in the early months of that camp because it wasn't set up to

00:51:38.001 --> 00:51:41.701
house the thousands and thousands of men that they had arrested for absolutely

00:51:41.701 --> 00:51:44.064
no reason, except for the fact that they were immigrants and Jewish.

00:51:45.389 --> 00:51:50.219
He ended up being released. You know, he was one of only a few that was sent back home.

00:51:50.219 --> 00:51:55.859
And that is a miracle, really. I mean, if he hadn't been, the whole trajectory

00:51:55.859 --> 00:52:00.119
of their family's life would have been dramatically different,

00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:02.629
I think. I doubt they would have survived. Yeah.

00:52:04.059 --> 00:52:10.139
Since you brought that up, what struck you as impressive about the Parky Eds

00:52:10.139 --> 00:52:12.589
and their neighbors' survival skills? Yeah.

00:52:13.791 --> 00:52:21.011
Well, I think Ben's father, Joseph, was extremely resourceful for someone who,

00:52:21.551 --> 00:52:25.311
really was still very much an outsider to the French way of doing things.

00:52:25.624 --> 00:52:30.362
You know, he had immigrated in 1931, I think. Ben was born in 1933.

00:52:30.850 --> 00:52:34.721
So they had lived there for a while. But like a lot of immigrants,

00:52:34.721 --> 00:52:38.151
you know, they really congregated with their own communities.

00:52:39.231 --> 00:52:43.721
Other immigrants from Poland. And so he had only learned, and also his wife

00:52:43.721 --> 00:52:45.454
had only really learned basic French.

00:52:45.784 --> 00:52:49.771
So their communication with the neighbors was very rudimentary.

00:52:49.771 --> 00:52:54.881
It was sort of not much beyond just saying hello and kind of exchanging pleasantries.

00:52:55.445 --> 00:53:00.521
But at the same time, I think he was known as a very good and hard worker.

00:53:00.521 --> 00:53:03.235
He was known as somebody who could be relied upon.

00:53:03.642 --> 00:53:07.901
Ben told me that even though neither of his parents ever drank wine,

00:53:07.901 --> 00:53:12.121
they just weren't drinkers, They always had a bottle of wine sitting inside

00:53:12.121 --> 00:53:17.650
the door of their apartment just in case somebody came by to offer a glass of wine.

00:53:17.940 --> 00:53:24.301
I think these kinds of things made people care about the family.

00:53:24.301 --> 00:53:28.431
I mean, and also, you know, having young Ben being one of only two children

00:53:28.431 --> 00:53:30.991
born and growing up in that courtyard, I think that,

00:53:31.715 --> 00:53:37.181
the other citizens of their particular corner of the courtyard just were invested

00:53:37.181 --> 00:53:41.051
in this family in a way that they weren't necessarily invested in the lives

00:53:41.051 --> 00:53:44.154
of some other people in the courtyard who actually did not survive.

00:53:44.677 --> 00:53:48.891
So, and the people in the courtyard themselves were, as I'm sure we'll talk

00:53:48.891 --> 00:53:50.869
about, were special in their own way, too.

00:53:51.697 --> 00:53:56.291
Yeah, well, I mean, that was kind of the thing I wanted you to get into with

00:53:56.291 --> 00:54:01.078
the neighbors as well, is like, you know, their ability to just...

00:54:02.458 --> 00:54:08.538
You know, in a moment, just focus in on helping people. And I guess,

00:54:09.530 --> 00:54:16.736
yeah, so based on the story, why do you think crisis brings out the best in humans?

00:54:17.678 --> 00:54:21.038
Oh, that's a great question. I mean, I don't think it always does.

00:54:21.818 --> 00:54:23.174
I think it can bring out the worst.

00:54:24.262 --> 00:54:27.408
I've thought a little bit about this and I don't have anything wise to say,

00:54:27.408 --> 00:54:34.247
but I've thought about the different kinds of bravery that the different neighbors exhibited.

00:54:34.421 --> 00:54:42.685
Because just to go into the story a little bit more, the first person that intervened

00:54:42.865 --> 00:54:46.808
right before the family was going to be arrested was their upstairs neighbor.

00:54:46.808 --> 00:54:50.588
Her name was Madam Nicola, and she was a young widow, and she happened to work

00:54:50.588 --> 00:54:52.948
as a secretary at the Central Police Station.

00:54:52.948 --> 00:54:58.078
And because that was her job, she saw that the family's names were

00:54:58.518 --> 00:55:02.388
on a list of all of the families that were going to be arrested the next day

00:55:02.388 --> 00:55:05.718
in what would become very infamously known as the Valdiv Roundup,

00:55:05.718 --> 00:55:11.354
where everybody was put into a sports arena and kept there before they were deported.

00:55:12.171 --> 00:55:17.571
When she saw their names, she just left work and she rushed home and she pounded

00:55:17.571 --> 00:55:21.351
on their door in the middle of their midday meal and said, you have to leave.

00:55:21.351 --> 00:55:23.391
You can't be here in the morning and you can't go to the metro.

00:55:23.391 --> 00:55:24.171
They're going to be waiting.

00:55:24.751 --> 00:55:27.688
You have to not be here when they come to arrest you.

00:55:28.141 --> 00:55:32.859
So that was a very specific kind of bravery because if she had been caught,

00:55:33.207 --> 00:55:35.911
if somebody had seen her, she would have been a traitor. She could have been,

00:55:36.431 --> 00:55:40.872
shot herself or put in a camp. I mean, what she did was literally risking her life.

00:55:41.343 --> 00:55:46.411
But it was a very I feel like if I put myself in her shoes it feels like a very

00:55:46.411 --> 00:55:50.791
impulsive bravery like I have to do this I have to do this right now and then

00:55:50.791 --> 00:55:53.071
there were the people that ended up helping them for the.

00:55:53.771 --> 00:55:57.741
Two years they were in hiding because the next thing they had to do was they

00:55:57.741 --> 00:56:02.291
had to find a place to hide and where they ended up going was in a warehouse

00:56:02.291 --> 00:56:04.252
in that same courtyard that another

00:56:04.606 --> 00:56:09.062
furniture maker emptied out for them and they crossed over and they moved into

00:56:09.375 --> 00:56:13.881
this warehouse the size of, say, a single car garage with only a wood stove

00:56:13.881 --> 00:56:16.531
and obviously no electricity or no refrigeration.

00:56:16.531 --> 00:56:18.608
Nobody had that where they lived.

00:56:19.113 --> 00:56:23.236
And that was a different kind of bravery and a different kind of stress because,

00:56:23.854 --> 00:56:30.461
for two years, he was at risk of having the family being discovered.

00:56:30.461 --> 00:56:35.171
And imagine, I mean, the family, of course, was under the most level of stress

00:56:35.171 --> 00:56:40.751
but that had to be a lot to carry for for two years that kind of weight of of

00:56:40.751 --> 00:56:45.344
of being worried that that this might be discovered and then there were also these,

00:56:45.994 --> 00:56:50.891
that these neighbors who happen to run shops deli and a grocery store and then

00:56:50.891 --> 00:56:55.131
each day they put food aside so that young bed could go outside and get food

00:56:55.131 --> 00:56:58.621
from they put it aside and he would just slide the money across the counter

00:56:59.005 --> 00:57:03.191
and and he would take the food back to the warehouse to feed his family because

00:57:03.191 --> 00:57:04.862
Otherwise, they would have not had food.

00:57:05.227 --> 00:57:08.381
So they were each brave in different

00:57:08.381 --> 00:57:12.059
ways, I feel like, and each took a different level of risk. But...

00:57:14.035 --> 00:57:18.035
I asked myself that question a lot, and I don't have an answer because one of

00:57:18.035 --> 00:57:22.710
the questions that kept coming up for me when I wrote this book is,

00:57:23.064 --> 00:57:24.715
well, what would you do for your neighbor?

00:57:25.035 --> 00:57:30.315
Like, what would you do if a neighbor you only knew in passing who had never

00:57:30.315 --> 00:57:36.167
really dined in your house, who wasn't a close friend, came to you in desperate need of protection?

00:57:36.568 --> 00:57:39.675
And I want to say that I would do the right thing, but I, you know,

00:57:39.675 --> 00:57:43.099
you don't know until you're tested. Yeah, yeah.

00:57:44.165 --> 00:57:51.655
So I noticed that Benjamin recounted sentiments of anti-Semitism that existed prior to the war.

00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:55.144
Why was that an important context to share in the story?

00:57:55.630 --> 00:58:00.255
Well, a lot of the anti-Semitism that his father experienced was actually in

00:58:00.255 --> 00:58:02.885
Poland. It was one of the reasons they had immigrated.

00:58:03.344 --> 00:58:10.532
So I think, you know, Poland was really a very anti-Semitic country even prior to the war.

00:58:11.043 --> 00:58:17.648
He and Joseph was really when he was a soldier he wanted to he was a socialist

00:58:17.925 --> 00:58:22.634
he wanted to fight for his country he believed in his country but he felt that,

00:58:23.423 --> 00:58:27.745
there they didn't include him in their definition of what what it meant to be

00:58:27.745 --> 00:58:31.683
Polish and that is one of that's the primary reason why they immigrated

00:58:32.095 --> 00:58:36.475
in France though I mean in early days when they first moved there they didn't

00:58:36.475 --> 00:58:39.148
feel anti-Semitism at all. They felt very accepted.

00:58:39.595 --> 00:58:45.925
It was really only until the Nazis occupied Paris that they started feeling

00:58:46.245 --> 00:58:50.965
that, and I think Ben will say he never felt it, honestly, but.

00:58:52.225 --> 00:58:57.455
The way they felt it was through the change in legislation, which restricted

00:58:57.455 --> 00:59:01.575
their movements and which restricted what kind of property they could have.

00:59:01.575 --> 00:59:04.185
They couldn't have a radio, They couldn't have a bicycle. So those were the

00:59:04.185 --> 00:59:07.745
real ways in which this particular family felt it.

00:59:07.745 --> 00:59:11.885
And they were, I think, maybe a bit protected by, again, the community they

00:59:11.885 --> 00:59:16.765
lived in, which insulated them through, you know, just being in this courtyard

00:59:16.765 --> 00:59:19.686
from some of what was going on in broader city.

00:59:22.119 --> 00:59:28.488
Let's see. How do I want to work this? So what was the most memorable moment

00:59:28.923 --> 00:59:35.137
of August 25th, 1944 for Ben? Wow. Well, that's a good question.

00:59:35.699 --> 00:59:38.919
I'm a little bit bad with dates. I mean, that's the liberation, right?

00:59:38.919 --> 00:59:45.919
That's when Paris was liberated. And so he remembers that they went down into

00:59:45.919 --> 00:59:51.919
the courtyard and he remembers very vividly the celebration and seeing his mother.

00:59:52.759 --> 00:59:57.289
Sitting with, when they all came out, they gathered around and she sat in folding

00:59:57.289 --> 01:00:01.169
chairs with the other women. And she just, he remembers this ring of black dresses

01:00:01.169 --> 01:00:03.796
and them all crying tears of happiness.

01:00:05.023 --> 01:00:08.303
Then the next thing, and I don't remember which day it is, which is why I wasn't

01:00:08.603 --> 01:00:13.463
hesitating a bit, but de Gaulle, Charles de Gaulle, came to the city of Paris

01:00:13.463 --> 01:00:17.107
and was parading to Notre Dame.

01:00:17.749 --> 01:00:22.513
And Ben's father and older brothers and he wanted to go see it.

01:00:22.513 --> 01:00:27.933
And so they went down and wanted to witness de Gaulle walking through the streets.

01:00:27.933 --> 01:00:30.623
Of course, it was so crowded that they couldn't get close and they were on a

01:00:30.623 --> 01:00:33.503
nearby bridge just sort of peering and they could basically barely see.

01:00:33.503 --> 01:00:37.259
He was a very tall man, so they could see his hat, his kepi, bouncing.

01:00:37.590 --> 01:00:41.883
But there were snipers up in the buildings that shot down at de Gaulle.

01:00:41.883 --> 01:00:45.363
And so that was, I think, a memorable moment because the whole crowd sort of

01:00:45.363 --> 01:00:49.323
scattered. He remembers being pressed down into the pavement by his father,

01:00:49.323 --> 01:00:50.713
who was trying to keep him safe.

01:00:51.143 --> 01:00:56.390
But de Gaulle didn't even flinch and just kept walking all the way to the cathedral, to Notre Dame.

01:00:56.785 --> 01:01:02.433
Those two moments stood out in the immediate days after the war.

01:01:02.433 --> 01:01:07.313
Also, he had very badly missed his friend who lived in the courtyard.

01:01:07.313 --> 01:01:10.833
He had been missing her, his very best friend from before the war.

01:01:10.833 --> 01:01:16.603
And when he saw her, it was clear that her life had moved on and she had not

01:01:16.603 --> 01:01:21.263
missed him the way he had missed her, you know, pining away basically for two

01:01:21.263 --> 01:01:23.026
years in this warehouse.

01:01:23.311 --> 01:01:28.483
And I think that that was a sad, one of the only sad things that happened coming

01:01:28.483 --> 01:01:31.898
out of the war was to sort of see that loss of a childhood friendship,

01:01:32.136 --> 01:01:33.715
something that had been so dear to him.

01:01:34.415 --> 01:01:35.981
Yeah. And that was Renee, right?

01:01:36.725 --> 01:01:39.923
Yes. She went by Titi, but her name was Renee. Yes. His very,

01:01:39.923 --> 01:01:43.059
very best friend when he was a child.

01:01:43.221 --> 01:01:47.685
Yeah. But there was another situation. I think it was his.

01:01:48.802 --> 01:01:52.852
I think it was his mom or his grandmom. Oh, the soldiers. Yeah,

01:01:52.852 --> 01:01:59.862
yeah. When it was like she didn't want to come and then they had to send a Jewish

01:01:59.862 --> 01:02:01.920
soldier came and said it's going to be okay.

01:02:02.060 --> 01:02:08.972
And then she left. Yes, that happened about, I don't know, a week or two after liberation.

01:02:08.972 --> 01:02:14.912
And what happened there was Ben's mother, she had never left this warehouse

01:02:14.912 --> 01:02:20.305
for over two years, right? You know, Ben went out every day to get food, but she had not left.

01:02:20.688 --> 01:02:26.652
And after the war, she clearly was more terrified of leaving than anybody really understood.

01:02:26.652 --> 01:02:32.422
So as the boys and their father started exploring Paris and just celebrating

01:02:32.422 --> 01:02:36.122
the fact that they were free again, she never left the walls of the courtyard.

01:02:36.482 --> 01:02:40.612
They moved back into their apartment, which had been completely looted and was

01:02:40.612 --> 01:02:44.602
empty. But they moved back in, but she didn't want to leave the courtyard.

01:02:44.602 --> 01:02:46.045
So Ben still went and got the food.

01:02:46.633 --> 01:02:50.601
And when Ben and his brothers and father were roaming the city.

01:02:51.302 --> 01:02:53.252
They met some American soldiers.

01:02:53.252 --> 01:02:56.284
They met one particular American soldier, a man named Sidney Feldman,

01:02:56.638 --> 01:03:01.212
who became a close family friend and would come over for dinner and bring them

01:03:01.212 --> 01:03:06.522
the MREs, the meals ready to eat, those calorie packed meals that soldiers get.

01:03:07.222 --> 01:03:12.152
And when he was over for dinner one time, he learned that she had not left the

01:03:12.152 --> 01:03:14.908
courtyard. And he was like, well, that doesn't, that's not going to,

01:03:15.366 --> 01:03:19.047
that's not okay. You know, Madame Parquet, you've got to, you've got to go see Paris again.

01:03:19.406 --> 01:03:24.982
So he returned the next day with three of his battalion mates and or squad mates,

01:03:24.982 --> 01:03:29.441
and they literally surrounded her on all sides and escorted her

01:03:29.854 --> 01:03:35.092
out of the courtyard and through the neighborhood and walked to the Bastille,

01:03:35.092 --> 01:03:38.078
which isn't that far away, but I'm sure it felt very far to her.

01:03:38.957 --> 01:03:44.462
And I always like to say that the Americans liberated Paris and then they liberated,

01:03:45.050 --> 01:03:47.552
Ben's mom because they made her feel safe again.

01:03:47.883 --> 01:03:51.103
Yeah, that was a cool moment. Yeah. So.

01:03:52.916 --> 01:04:00.151
Tell me if I'm wrong, but I kind of felt that the theme of the book was circular, right?

01:04:00.743 --> 01:04:04.197
So it was like, and there were moments where like...

01:04:05.267 --> 01:04:10.807
Ben's mom had lost the locket that Joseph had given them when they were leaving

01:04:10.807 --> 01:04:12.926
Paris because they thought it was going to get bombed or whatever.

01:04:13.588 --> 01:04:17.918
And then they came back and, and they, and the locket was found. Right.

01:04:18.607 --> 01:04:22.927
And, and it just seemed like there was, you know, Joseph got arrested and then

01:04:22.927 --> 01:04:27.127
he came back, you know, and then the overall theme was like,

01:04:27.127 --> 01:04:30.947
you start off and it's like, you know, you're celebrating Bastille day and it's

01:04:30.947 --> 01:04:32.507
freedom and all this stuff.

01:04:32.507 --> 01:04:36.647
And then they go through this adventure and then at the end,

01:04:36.987 --> 01:04:41.677
you know, they get their freedom restored. So I kind of always I kind of felt

01:04:41.677 --> 01:04:45.107
that the theme was circular. Am I a little off base with that or?

01:04:45.687 --> 01:04:49.207
It's such that's such an amazing, really interesting observation. I think you're right.

01:04:49.507 --> 01:04:53.857
It was not intentionally done. Those are just the facts of the story.

01:04:53.857 --> 01:04:56.746
But now that you say that, I think it's really interesting.

01:04:56.880 --> 01:05:01.959
You're right. The book begins basically on Bastille Day and it also ends on Bastille Day.

01:05:02.231 --> 01:05:07.117
Because that's when we went back and were able to go into the apartment for the first time.

01:05:07.117 --> 01:05:13.977
And that was just a lucky coincidence. I mean, these are all just true things

01:05:13.977 --> 01:05:18.246
that happened, but there is a very circular nature about it. You're right.

01:05:18.548 --> 01:05:23.117
Okay. All right. Well, you know, as long as I'm not crazy, I always tell people- No, no.

01:05:23.117 --> 01:05:26.347
I think I'm going to think about that. That's a really interesting observation

01:05:26.347 --> 01:05:29.277
that I'm going to sit with for a while. Because I tell people all the time,

01:05:29.277 --> 01:05:32.107
it's like, all my guests are smarter than me. So, you know, So I just,

01:05:32.427 --> 01:05:35.307
you know, any kind of encouragement I get is great.

01:05:36.129 --> 01:05:39.015
How has working on this book inspired you?

01:05:39.709 --> 01:05:43.912
So it may sound trite, but it's true.

01:05:44.173 --> 01:05:49.207
It has really, and also with the backdrop of our kind of our current political

01:05:49.207 --> 01:05:52.757
climate, it's really inspired me to get more involved in our community,

01:05:52.757 --> 01:05:56.920
like my community, my neighbors, and try to...

01:05:57.904 --> 01:06:02.084
Reach out and be a good ambassador when people move in who are to the neighborhood

01:06:02.084 --> 01:06:03.364
who are different, which is happening.

01:06:03.364 --> 01:06:06.684
My neighborhood is a changing neighborhood. And a lot of the people that move

01:06:06.684 --> 01:06:13.204
in around me now are immigrants and who are coming in. So I'm really having

01:06:13.204 --> 01:06:17.484
that, talk about circular, I am having that opportunity.

01:06:18.104 --> 01:06:21.934
On both sides of us, we have just gotten new neighbors. They're literally moving

01:06:21.934 --> 01:06:25.530
in now and they're both from different countries, from each other and from me.

01:06:25.942 --> 01:06:31.374
And so I am having this opportunity to be this ambassador and to practice what

01:06:31.374 --> 01:06:34.852
I think is the central lesson of the book, which is to love thy neighbor,

01:06:36.192 --> 01:06:40.904
to the differences that we have are not important compared to what we have in

01:06:40.904 --> 01:06:45.444
common, and to try to bring and bridge and create community around me.

01:06:45.444 --> 01:06:47.769
So that is my central lesson.

01:06:48.274 --> 01:06:52.216
Yeah, and you start off the book with that quote from Leviticus.

01:06:52.698 --> 01:06:58.214
So I thought about using that as a quote, and I said, well, I'll use the other one.

01:06:58.214 --> 01:07:03.228
But yeah, so is that what you want readers to take away from the book,

01:07:03.815 --> 01:07:08.656
that love thy neighbor concept, or you want something a little more deeper than that?

01:07:09.133 --> 01:07:14.148
Well, I think that's plenty deep in this day and age, honestly. I mean, you see people.

01:07:16.284 --> 01:07:19.814
This happened a long time ago, but it happened to a young boy who is now an

01:07:19.814 --> 01:07:23.841
old man who is watching similar things happen in this country and around the world.

01:07:24.200 --> 01:07:28.794
You see people holding signs with Love Thy Neighbor up in protests now,

01:07:28.794 --> 01:07:31.300
and you didn't see that, I don't think, 15 years ago.

01:07:31.724 --> 01:07:35.723
It feels to me timeless and timely, and I think that.

01:07:37.744 --> 01:07:46.084
One of the ways that we can fight back against the evil or just against any

01:07:46.084 --> 01:07:48.356
kind of potential fascistic influence,

01:07:48.821 --> 01:07:53.471
Regimes is to create community, to love thy neighbor, to create those bonds,

01:07:53.471 --> 01:07:58.480
and to not let ourselves be divided by xenophobia and things like that.

01:07:59.113 --> 01:08:04.413
All right. So I need you to finish this sentence. I have hope because.

01:08:05.330 --> 01:08:11.391
I have hope because I know that there are good people in the world.

01:08:11.391 --> 01:08:17.271
And I recently met a number of young teenagers when I was at the,

01:08:17.271 --> 01:08:23.941
this is going to be a very long sentence, Mr. Fleming, but when I did a book signing at the U.S.

01:08:24.261 --> 01:08:30.481
Holocaust Museum, I was incredibly surprised that the vast majority of the people

01:08:30.481 --> 01:08:35.221
who stopped and who wanted to talk about the book were kids who were 12 to 16

01:08:35.221 --> 01:08:37.508
to 18, a bunch of school groups had come through.

01:08:37.951 --> 01:08:43.400
But these kids were from all over the country, and they were really interested in the story.

01:08:43.813 --> 01:08:48.461
And a number of them, a 13-year-old boy from the Midwest borrowed money from

01:08:48.461 --> 01:08:50.088
his friend to buy the book.

01:08:52.781 --> 01:08:57.881
And a 16-year-old girl named Cassandra took a selfie with me and then was spotted

01:08:57.881 --> 01:08:59.823
reading it in the lobby of the museum.

01:09:00.537 --> 01:09:04.851
I have hope because those kids are out there and they're not just in one part

01:09:04.851 --> 01:09:09.540
of this country. They are spread throughout the country. So I have hope.

01:09:10.034 --> 01:09:11.565
Yeah, that's beautiful.

01:09:12.431 --> 01:09:15.288
So if people want to get to Courtyard, how can they do that?

01:09:16.511 --> 01:09:19.631
It's available pretty much wherever books are sold. You can go to my website,

01:09:19.631 --> 01:09:22.791
which is alexamorris.com. There are links there.

01:09:23.116 --> 01:09:27.231
Obviously, Amazon, bookshop.org, if you want to support your independent bookstore.

01:09:27.231 --> 01:09:30.836
Some libraries have it, but please read it, and if you like it, please review it.

01:09:31.459 --> 01:09:35.611
So, and people can go to your website, too, if they want to reach out to you

01:09:35.611 --> 01:09:37.671
as well. Absolutely, please.

01:09:38.091 --> 01:09:42.587
I would love to hear from anybody who wants to talk about it or anything related to it.

01:09:43.230 --> 01:09:47.901
Well, Alexa Morris, I'm really glad that we had this conversation.

01:09:47.901 --> 01:09:50.126
I'm glad that you were able to write the book.

01:09:50.503 --> 01:09:53.974
Like I've told other people before that have written similar books.

01:09:54.399 --> 01:09:58.941
One of my biggest regrets is not just having a tape recorder with some of my

01:09:58.941 --> 01:10:03.201
relatives to talk about some of the stories that they had, because a lot of

01:10:03.201 --> 01:10:04.511
them would tell me stories.

01:10:05.080 --> 01:10:08.361
And, you know, I was young and I would just sit there and be fascinated by it.

01:10:08.361 --> 01:10:10.338
And I could remember some details.

01:10:10.947 --> 01:10:16.101
But I really if I had the foresight as a young person to just grab a Walkman

01:10:16.101 --> 01:10:23.619
and record it and just be able to to to document that, because I think that's important.

01:10:24.183 --> 01:10:29.641
And like you said, when you can see young people gravitating to those stories,

01:10:29.641 --> 01:10:33.861
that means that those stories will continue to live on and people will continue

01:10:33.861 --> 01:10:35.331
to have a better sense of history.

01:10:35.331 --> 01:10:42.138
So I'm glad that you were better than me and reaching out to your loved one and getting that story.

01:10:42.741 --> 01:10:46.331
And I wish you much, much success on the book because, like I said,

01:10:46.331 --> 01:10:48.046
it's a very, very beautiful story.

01:10:48.851 --> 01:10:53.311
It's not it's there's horror in it because of the events that took place.

01:10:54.251 --> 01:10:58.301
But it really is a beautiful story, and I'm glad that you were able to write

01:10:58.301 --> 01:11:00.710
it. And thank you for coming on the podcast.

01:11:01.189 --> 01:11:04.071
Well, thank you. It's been really a real pleasure to talk with you today.

01:11:04.591 --> 01:11:05.391
I thank you for your time.

01:11:06.018 --> 01:11:08.456
All right, guys. We're going to catch you all on the other side.

01:11:30.168 --> 01:11:34.697
Now it is time for my next guest, Maritza Perez Medina.

01:11:35.345 --> 01:11:40.098
Maritza Perez Medina is the Director of Federal Affairs at the Drug Policy Alliance

01:11:40.098 --> 01:11:44.188
in Washington, D.C., where she leads the organization's federal legislative

01:11:44.188 --> 01:11:47.554
agenda and strategy to end the drug war.

01:11:48.101 --> 01:11:53.338
Previously, Maritza was a Senior Policy Analyst for Criminal Justice Reform

01:11:53.338 --> 01:11:57.678
at the Center for American Progress, where her portfolio included marijuana

01:11:57.678 --> 01:12:01.290
policy, policing, and prison and sentencing reform.

01:12:01.813 --> 01:12:07.458
Prior to joining CAP, Maritza was a legislative staff attorney at the Mexican-American

01:12:07.458 --> 01:12:09.313
Legal Defense and Educational Fund.

01:12:09.926 --> 01:12:15.668
She began her career at MALDEF as a Soros Justice Fellow, advocating for policies

01:12:15.668 --> 01:12:17.176
to end mass incarceration.

01:12:17.701 --> 01:12:21.771
Her portfolio at MALDEF expanded to include immigration policy,

01:12:22.102 --> 01:12:25.908
employment rights, education access, and judicial nominations.

01:12:26.651 --> 01:12:30.616
Maritza earned her JD at the University of California Berkeley School of Law,

01:12:30.854 --> 01:12:34.069
where she received the highest distinction for her pro bono work.

01:12:34.565 --> 01:12:39.848
In law school, Maritza worked at the ACLU of Northern California and the NAACP,

01:12:40.488 --> 01:12:44.969
Legal Defense Fund, where she conducted legal research on police and prison reform.

01:12:45.572 --> 01:12:49.048
She participated in several student clinics, including.

01:12:49.814 --> 01:12:54.808
Berkeley Law's Death Penalty Clinic, where she conducted mitigation research

01:12:54.808 --> 01:12:56.561
to remove her client from death row,

01:12:57.030 --> 01:13:01.848
the Post-Conviction Advocacy Project, where she successfully helped her incarcerated

01:13:01.848 --> 01:13:06.288
client gain parole, and the Immigration Clinic of the East Bay Community Law

01:13:06.288 --> 01:13:11.770
Center, where she assisted clients to apply for DACA and win relief from deportation.

01:13:12.947 --> 01:13:20.927
Through the HBA D.C. Judicial Internship Program, she served as a judicial clerk to Judge Marisa J.

01:13:21.614 --> 01:13:26.187
DeMio of the Superior Court of the District of Columbia. Before attending law

01:13:26.187 --> 01:13:31.490
school, Marisa joined Teach for America and was a fourth grade teacher in New Orleans.

01:13:32.089 --> 01:13:35.877
A native Nevadan, she received her B.A. from the University of Nevada,

01:13:35.877 --> 01:13:40.527
Reno, with academic honors, graduating with double majors in journalism and

01:13:40.527 --> 01:13:44.337
Spanish, and double minors in political science and economic policy.

01:13:44.840 --> 01:13:48.787
As an undergraduate, she participated in the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute,

01:13:49.247 --> 01:13:53.967
Internship Program and worked in the office of Senate Majority Leader Harry

01:13:53.967 --> 01:13:59.148
Reid in Washington, D.C., where she conducted research on policy issues affecting Latinos.

01:13:59.628 --> 01:14:01.984
Maritza is passionate about public service.

01:14:02.919 --> 01:14:06.999
Giving back to her community. She is the past president of the Hispanic Bar

01:14:06.999 --> 01:14:08.811
Association of District of Columbia

01:14:09.205 --> 01:14:13.936
and currently serves on the board of National Immigrant Women's Advocacy Project

01:14:14.319 --> 01:14:18.179
at American University Washington College of Law.

01:14:18.179 --> 01:14:23.979
In 2019, Maritza was named one of the Hispanic National Bar Association's top

01:14:23.979 --> 01:14:28.209
lawyers under 40 in recognition of her outstanding record of public service

01:14:28.209 --> 01:14:29.376
and professional excellence.

01:14:29.829 --> 01:14:34.869
Maritza is an alumna of the New Leaders Council in Oakland, Women's Media Center,

01:14:34.869 --> 01:14:37.035
Progressive Women's Voices Media,

01:14:37.581 --> 01:14:43.319
and Leadership Training Program, and the Harvard Kennedy School Executive Education

01:14:43.319 --> 01:14:46.316
Program for Leaders of Social Justice Movements.

01:14:46.954 --> 01:14:51.708
A criminal justice and drug policy expert, Maritza has been featured in various media outlets,

01:14:52.219 --> 01:14:56.091
including the Washington Pools, the New York Times, Los Angeles Times,

01:14:56.480 --> 01:15:00.399
Wall Street Journal, Politico, Roll Call, the Boston Globe, CNN,

01:15:00.399 --> 01:15:05.587
USA Today, Chicago Tribune, The Takeaway, Latino USA, and more.

01:15:06.157 --> 01:15:08.869
She is licensed to practice law in the District of Columbia,

01:15:08.869 --> 01:15:12.693
California, and before the United States Supreme Court.

01:15:13.117 --> 01:15:17.454
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

01:15:17.715 --> 01:15:21.710
on this podcast, Maritza Perez Medina.

01:15:35.282 --> 01:15:39.115
Dina, how are you doing? I'm doing great. How are you?

01:15:39.324 --> 01:15:44.638
I'm doing lovely. I am so glad that you were able to readjust the schedule.

01:15:45.050 --> 01:15:52.592
My listeners have known for like the last month or few weeks that I did the

01:15:52.592 --> 01:15:57.785
saga about me trying to get everybody that I scheduled to get readjusted.

01:15:58.331 --> 01:16:02.672
And so I'm really glad that you were one of the people that were able to readjust

01:16:02.672 --> 01:16:07.182
and come on because you're talking about something that has been,

01:16:07.922 --> 01:16:12.757
you've been a champion of a lot of causes, but you really kind of.

01:16:15.613 --> 01:16:19.833
Laid your hay in dealing with drug policy in America.

01:16:20.175 --> 01:16:25.377
And so I definitely wanted to tap into that brain of yours and talk about that issue.

01:16:26.574 --> 01:16:31.033
So one of the things I like to do to kind of kick the interview off is that

01:16:31.033 --> 01:16:33.215
I do a couple of icebreaker exercises.

01:16:33.986 --> 01:16:37.324
So the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.

01:16:37.447 --> 01:16:40.976
And the quote is, it's not a war on drugs.

01:16:41.209 --> 01:16:43.148
It's a war on personal freedom.

01:16:44.312 --> 01:16:47.965
Yeah, I always like to say it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on people.

01:16:48.627 --> 01:16:51.663
But I think personal freedom also works because at the end of the day,

01:16:51.663 --> 01:16:56.785
we're talking about bodily autonomy, people's rights to put into their body

01:16:56.954 --> 01:16:58.765
what they desire to put into their body.

01:16:59.719 --> 01:17:04.383
And then, of course, because of the way that the drug war has played out in

01:17:04.383 --> 01:17:07.541
this country, people do lose their liberty.

01:17:08.311 --> 01:17:12.593
And more than that, actually, we know that any involvement with the criminal

01:17:12.593 --> 01:17:16.015
legal system can lead to really dire collateral consequences,

01:17:17.022 --> 01:17:22.059
really attacking every part of a person's life, from access to food,

01:17:22.622 --> 01:17:26.463
time spent with their families, access to a good quality job.

01:17:26.463 --> 01:17:30.575
So we like to think about it as a war on people as well. Okay.

01:17:31.283 --> 01:17:35.120
All right. So the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.

01:17:35.797 --> 01:17:39.356
So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

01:17:40.371 --> 01:17:46.063
Seven. All right. What do you consider the best way to stay informed about politics,

01:17:46.063 --> 01:17:48.161
current events, health, et cetera?

01:17:49.974 --> 01:17:56.614
Well, I usually keep up with everything, believe it or not, through my Instagram account.

01:17:57.042 --> 01:17:59.934
But I think the algorithm has figured these are things I'm interested in.

01:17:59.934 --> 01:18:02.034
So it feeds me a lot of news.

01:18:02.620 --> 01:18:09.004
But I think generally NPR is also a good source. I will listen to that and also

01:18:09.004 --> 01:18:11.294
try to catch up using that. Okay.

01:18:12.379 --> 01:18:16.524
All right. So I always like to start my interviews, especially with people who

01:18:16.524 --> 01:18:23.593
are either activists or political consultants or actual politicians, elected officials,

01:18:24.219 --> 01:18:29.314
with a little backstory about them, kind of like a superhero origin story.

01:18:29.792 --> 01:18:34.044
So my question to you is, at what point during your time in law school did you

01:18:34.044 --> 01:18:36.639
decide to become the crusader that you are?

01:18:37.915 --> 01:18:41.038
Well, you know, it really started for me before law school.

01:18:41.961 --> 01:18:46.989
Literally my first memories are those that were political,

01:18:47.860 --> 01:18:53.044
i was just born that way like i really was i remember even fighting with my

01:18:53.044 --> 01:18:57.954
little brother about gender justice when i was like four years old these are my first memories,

01:18:58.802 --> 01:19:04.204
and then as i got older that didn't change i just became more aware i grew up

01:19:04.204 --> 01:19:10.032
in a very rural part of the country northeastern nevada and very conservative politically,

01:19:10.682 --> 01:19:16.294
where unfortunately I experienced a lot of explicit racism because of the community.

01:19:16.874 --> 01:19:21.314
There was a lot of explicit racism specifically against Mexican immigrants,

01:19:21.314 --> 01:19:25.332
which I identify as, you know, my whole family as well.

01:19:25.825 --> 01:19:31.034
And it really bothered me that people were allowed to publish things,

01:19:31.034 --> 01:19:35.583
horrible things about my community in the local newspaper and nobody was pushing back.

01:19:36.071 --> 01:19:41.774
So even in early age, in my childhood, I was writing back letters to the editor

01:19:41.774 --> 01:19:45.450
standing up for my community, talking about these issues even at school.

01:19:46.319 --> 01:19:49.959
And that caught the attention of a teacher, actually. So it was my high school

01:19:49.959 --> 01:19:53.259
government teacher who first encouraged me to come out to Washington, D.C.

01:19:54.101 --> 01:19:57.562
To learn more about politics and how to change laws.

01:19:58.243 --> 01:20:01.459
Because he knew that was an interest of mine, even though I didn't necessarily

01:20:01.459 --> 01:20:04.559
know that was an outlet because I'm first generation everything,

01:20:04.559 --> 01:20:08.999
not just the first generation in the U.S., but the first to graduate high school

01:20:08.999 --> 01:20:10.939
and achieve higher education.

01:20:10.939 --> 01:20:15.319
So I had a very limited worldview, especially growing up in a rural place where

01:20:15.319 --> 01:20:17.584
we didn't have access to all of those things.

01:20:18.241 --> 01:20:24.419
So he really encouraged me to go out with the AP class, the AP government class to check out DC.

01:20:25.237 --> 01:20:28.909
And I couldn't afford it at the time. You know, I have a huge family and my

01:20:28.909 --> 01:20:30.029
mom was like, there's no way we

01:20:30.029 --> 01:20:33.963
can pay for this. But he actually found a scholarship to ensure I can go.

01:20:34.415 --> 01:20:37.399
And that trip was really life-changing for me because it was the first time

01:20:37.399 --> 01:20:38.979
I had visited Washington DC.

01:20:39.399 --> 01:20:43.979
I visited the Capitol. I met lawyers who were changing laws and standing up

01:20:43.979 --> 01:20:47.001
for people in their communities and fighting for civil rights.

01:20:47.406 --> 01:20:50.919
And I put it in my head after that trip that I was going to be a civil rights

01:20:50.919 --> 01:20:52.114
lawyer in Washington, D.C.

01:20:52.649 --> 01:20:56.149
Had no idea how I was going to do it, but that was the goal from there.

01:20:56.781 --> 01:21:00.889
So yeah, eventually that path did lead me to law school. And when I was in law

01:21:00.889 --> 01:21:05.703
school, I had many, many civil rights interests from education,

01:21:06.133 --> 01:21:10.092
inequity to racial justice, to criminal justice, to immigration.

01:21:10.734 --> 01:21:16.229
But that really narrowed down for me when I got to do some clinics in law school,

01:21:16.229 --> 01:21:20.329
which is a cool thing about law school, that you can join clubs and clinics

01:21:20.329 --> 01:21:22.566
to really see what interests you.

01:21:22.915 --> 01:21:26.849
And the criminal legal work really spoke to me because it sort of encompassed

01:21:26.849 --> 01:21:30.867
all the things I was passionate about, civil rights, racial justice.

01:21:31.870 --> 01:21:37.710
The devastating harms that we've seen on communities of color because of the

01:21:37.710 --> 01:21:40.260
criminal legal system. These were things I was very passionate about.

01:21:40.260 --> 01:21:44.362
So it eventually led me to a career in the criminal justice reform space.

01:21:44.896 --> 01:21:48.830
And, you know, you can't talk criminal justice without talking about the war

01:21:48.830 --> 01:21:51.050
on drugs. It's a huge feeder into the system.

01:21:51.595 --> 01:21:54.974
So that's how I ended up at the Drug Policy Alliance. Okay.

01:21:55.509 --> 01:22:00.890
Yeah. So if you, I take it you've been to Atlanta. Yeah.

01:22:02.530 --> 01:22:06.491
If you haven't been to the Civil Rights Museum, go to that.

01:22:07.018 --> 01:22:11.429
It's right next to the Coca-Cola Museum. So it pales in comparison as far as

01:22:11.534 --> 01:22:14.980
size, but it's really, really cool.

01:22:14.980 --> 01:22:19.380
And one of the cool things is that there is a letter to the editor written by

01:22:19.380 --> 01:22:23.910
a young kid, about 15, 16-year-old named Martin Luther King Jr.

01:22:25.070 --> 01:22:26.950
So you're on the right path.

01:22:28.430 --> 01:22:32.200
You started off young and respond to the newspaper and all that,

01:22:32.200 --> 01:22:35.960
it's like, yeah, that's how you do it. You just get engaged.

01:22:35.960 --> 01:22:40.287
I think I wanted to be president of the United States when I was three years old.

01:22:40.897 --> 01:22:44.900
I saw a article. Well, my parents got me a set of encyclopedias.

01:22:45.403 --> 01:22:49.910
So I already knew what my life was going to be like. And everybody else is getting

01:22:49.910 --> 01:22:52.345
like train sets and all that. I got a set of encyclopedias.

01:22:52.963 --> 01:22:58.217
And when I was three, I saw this two-page spread of these pictures.

01:22:58.791 --> 01:23:01.790
And I said, oh I want to be one of these guys and that was the President of

01:23:01.790 --> 01:23:06.680
the United States article so that got me on my path into politics and stuff you know.

01:23:08.249 --> 01:23:12.899
Right. Enough about me. What is the Drug Policy Alliance? Yeah.

01:23:12.899 --> 01:23:19.387
So the Drug Policy Alliance is the leading nonprofit in this country working to end the war on drugs.

01:23:19.985 --> 01:23:25.423
So we believe that drug policy should be based in human rights,

01:23:26.109 --> 01:23:31.989
in equity, in health, and we fight to remove barriers to care.

01:23:32.529 --> 01:23:36.919
There are many people who struggle with drug use. Unfortunately,

01:23:36.919 --> 01:23:39.905
for a lot of folks, it's really hard to get help when they need it.

01:23:40.631 --> 01:23:45.483
At the same time, we continue to criminalize drugs across the board,

01:23:45.640 --> 01:23:49.129
which, again, like we talked about at the top of this call, it's not really

01:23:49.129 --> 01:23:52.878
criminalizing drugs. We're talking about people who end up criminalized because of drugs.

01:23:53.448 --> 01:23:57.589
So, you know, ultimately, we want to see a world where people aren't punished

01:23:57.589 --> 01:24:02.507
for what they put into their bodies, where people receive the care that they need. Yeah.

01:24:03.442 --> 01:24:09.003
In October of 1982, President Reagan said, we're making no excuses for drugs,

01:24:09.374 --> 01:24:10.889
hard, soft, or otherwise.

01:24:11.249 --> 01:24:13.693
Drugs are bad, and we're going after them.

01:24:14.140 --> 01:24:18.349
As I've said before, we've taken down the surrender flag and run up the battle

01:24:18.349 --> 01:24:21.855
flag. We're going to win the war on drugs.

01:24:22.598 --> 01:24:26.139
My question to you is, why did we not win the war on drugs, especially with

01:24:26.139 --> 01:24:29.866
all the resources and focus the federal government could muster?

01:24:31.214 --> 01:24:39.334
Its inception, the war on drugs was built on this idea that if we merely stop

01:24:39.334 --> 01:24:46.210
the supply of drugs, that will solve the quote-unquote drug crisis.

01:24:47.001 --> 01:24:55.018
Even before Reagan, you know, the first drug laws that we saw on the books were supply-side tactics.

01:24:55.487 --> 01:25:00.498
And, I might add, they were geared at criminalizing people of color.

01:25:00.921 --> 01:25:07.074
In fact, the first drug laws we saw were to stop opium dens in California,

01:25:07.414 --> 01:25:12.961
outlawing those specific places because that's where Chinese immigrants would hang out.

01:25:13.717 --> 01:25:17.904
We saw the same thing with marijuana. It became criminalized to target Mexican

01:25:17.904 --> 01:25:22.654
communities. In fact, it was intentionally called marijuana by the federal government

01:25:22.654 --> 01:25:26.906
to scare people, to make it sound Spanish and foreign instead of cannabis.

01:25:27.594 --> 01:25:32.134
We saw the same thing with crack cocaine and these laws were made up to target

01:25:32.134 --> 01:25:34.008
Black men in the South specifically.

01:25:35.175 --> 01:25:43.393
And, you know, while the purported purpose of even these early war on drug approaches,

01:25:43.857 --> 01:25:47.675
was to stop the supply, again, it was really criminalizing people and certain

01:25:47.675 --> 01:25:50.086
groups of people that were undesired in the U.S.

01:25:50.783 --> 01:25:53.941
That continued for decades and decades.

01:25:54.494 --> 01:25:59.341
You know, and Nixon is credited with really starting the war on drugs that we know it today.

01:26:00.055 --> 01:26:05.233
And that's true. And it's been amplified with every president since Nixon.

01:26:05.425 --> 01:26:06.998
Whether Republican or Democrat.

01:26:07.561 --> 01:26:12.867
And again, the approach has largely relied on stopping the supply of drugs,

01:26:13.179 --> 01:26:17.894
which is a failed strategy if we're not addressing demand and the root causes of drug use.

01:26:18.555 --> 01:26:24.525
And also acknowledging the fact that not all drug use is problematic and that

01:26:24.525 --> 01:26:29.015
people also have the right, again, to put what they want into their bodies as

01:26:29.015 --> 01:26:30.530
long as they're not hurting other people.

01:26:31.306 --> 01:26:34.785
This approach hasn't worked because we're not, again, we're not addressing the

01:26:34.785 --> 01:26:40.546
root causes of problematic drug use, but also we're not viewing this as a civil liberties issue.

01:26:41.034 --> 01:26:46.015
You know, in fact, the drug war has been used to take away people's civil liberties.

01:26:47.112 --> 01:26:52.532
Right. And that was the real reason why Nixon wanted to, who created this war

01:26:52.532 --> 01:26:58.353
on drugs was because he knew he couldn't take away the civil liberty of Vietnam protesters.

01:26:58.686 --> 01:27:02.737
Right. It was like they had that freedom of speech to protest the war.

01:27:03.202 --> 01:27:08.182
So he figured since a lot of them was in the quote unquote counterculture and

01:27:08.182 --> 01:27:11.862
drugs was involved in the counterculture, he said, the way we can get some of

01:27:11.862 --> 01:27:16.001
these leaders off the map is we hit them with drug charges. Right.

01:27:16.594 --> 01:27:21.492
And it was just like with the gangsters and using that mindset like in the 1920s

01:27:21.492 --> 01:27:26.144
when they couldn't catch the gangsters for actual murder, but they could get them for tax evasion.

01:27:26.440 --> 01:27:32.603
So they were finding a way to try to silence their critics or whatever they deemed as a problem.

01:27:33.293 --> 01:27:37.682
But I did not know that about marijuana. So you're basically saying the name

01:27:37.682 --> 01:27:39.732
marijuana is like the name Sony. It.

01:27:41.772 --> 01:27:46.017
Has no real, it was just made up, in other words.

01:27:47.272 --> 01:27:50.112
It was a term that some Spanish speakers use for it.

01:27:50.492 --> 01:27:55.504
But the first person who was in charge of drug enforcement in the U.S.,

01:27:56.218 --> 01:28:00.312
awful man by the name of Harry Anslinger, decided, well, you know,

01:28:00.312 --> 01:28:03.259
let's go ahead and take that and call cannabis marijuana.

01:28:03.643 --> 01:28:09.312
And all of the federal laws that we create in order to villainize it and in

01:28:09.312 --> 01:28:14.952
people's minds connect marijuana to Mexicans and Mexican immigrants,

01:28:14.952 --> 01:28:16.371
people who were undesired.

01:28:16.795 --> 01:28:21.410
You know, at the time, you have to remember that there was a depression.

01:28:21.636 --> 01:28:23.656
There was a lot of competition over jobs.

01:28:24.189 --> 01:28:28.201
Mexicans were repatriated and deported in mass numbers around this time.

01:28:28.851 --> 01:28:33.009
And, you know, that was a move, I think, really to ensure that.

01:28:34.185 --> 01:28:37.828
The supermarket was secure for white Americans. Yeah.

01:28:38.668 --> 01:28:42.160
Have you ever seen a movie Reefer Madness? I haven't. No.

01:28:42.595 --> 01:28:46.895
See, you got that. You know, you're an advocate. I think that should be required

01:28:46.895 --> 01:28:49.355
for every advocate to watch Reefer

01:28:49.355 --> 01:28:53.485
Madness so you'll get the biggest laugh you'll ever have in your life.

01:28:53.799 --> 01:28:59.025
I swear for people in your profession, you would think that it was the equivalent

01:28:59.025 --> 01:29:02.245
of whoever your favorite comedian is doing a movie.

01:29:02.582 --> 01:29:08.657
It is it's a it was supposed to be a piece to try to discourage people from smoking.

01:29:08.843 --> 01:29:13.555
And it is by far the most entertaining, hilarious movie you'll ever watch.

01:29:13.555 --> 01:29:15.089
So you got to watch that. All right.

01:29:15.386 --> 01:29:17.845
Heard of it. I heard of it. I'll get on it. OK.

01:29:18.733 --> 01:29:23.555
American history has shown that any kind of prohibition like the temperance

01:29:23.555 --> 01:29:25.956
movement or the war on drugs has always fallen short.

01:29:26.496 --> 01:29:29.874
Why do you think that political leaders, despite that history,

01:29:30.164 --> 01:29:33.352
still try to engage in these morality-based campaigns?

01:29:34.501 --> 01:29:39.321
Really good question. You know, honestly, I think it's just because it is easy

01:29:39.681 --> 01:29:45.561
to throw people who use drugs under the bus because we have so many negative stereotypes,

01:29:46.176 --> 01:29:49.771
of people who engage in drug use and the drug changes over time.

01:29:49.771 --> 01:29:51.720
I mean, you talked about the temperance movement.

01:29:52.242 --> 01:29:57.162
At the time, there was a lot of shunning of people who drink excessively.

01:29:57.813 --> 01:30:02.571
Now we think about people who use drugs, we usually think of people who inject

01:30:02.571 --> 01:30:07.424
drugs or use harder drugs, quote-unquote harder drugs, like meth,

01:30:08.074 --> 01:30:11.541
even fentanyl, newer synthetic drugs that are popping up in the market.

01:30:11.541 --> 01:30:15.226
And actually, even people who smoke marijuana. I think there's a lot of negative stereotypes.

01:30:17.301 --> 01:30:21.631
You know, I have always said that in order to change drug policy in this country,

01:30:21.631 --> 01:30:24.368
we really have to change our culture.

01:30:24.530 --> 01:30:29.251
We really have to change our culture to not treat certain groups of people as

01:30:29.251 --> 01:30:32.176
disposable and to have more compassion for one another.

01:30:32.727 --> 01:30:36.071
I do think that's a huge hindrance because for whatever reason,

01:30:36.071 --> 01:30:41.752
people have always felt like people who use drugs are a group that they can,

01:30:42.385 --> 01:30:46.151
either throw under the bus for political purposes or a group that is less human

01:30:46.151 --> 01:30:47.481
that they don't have to care about.

01:30:47.481 --> 01:30:53.511
And you see that in our policies. The policies that we have around drug use

01:30:53.511 --> 01:30:55.585
are extremely harsh, extremely punitive.

01:30:56.550 --> 01:31:01.051
Yeah, and just, I think, really draconian. Yeah, so let's dive into that a little

01:31:01.051 --> 01:31:06.091
more. Explain to the listeners the correlation between a failed drug policy

01:31:06.091 --> 01:31:08.202
and the need for criminal justice reform.

01:31:10.545 --> 01:31:17.035
Yeah. So one thing that I like to remind people about is that the drug war has

01:31:17.035 --> 01:31:18.585
been around for decades.

01:31:18.585 --> 01:31:23.105
As I said, it might change a bit, but at the end of the day,

01:31:23.105 --> 01:31:26.243
it's still a big feeder into the criminal legal system.

01:31:26.992 --> 01:31:30.435
Drug offenses are actually a leading cause of arrest in the U.S.

01:31:30.905 --> 01:31:34.418
We know that every 40 seconds someone is arrested for a drug offense.

01:31:34.998 --> 01:31:38.815
We know that people are disproportionately arrested. Black people,

01:31:38.815 --> 01:31:43.745
for example, are 30% of those who are arrested because of targeted policing,

01:31:44.070 --> 01:31:47.065
not because Black people use drugs more than other groups of people.

01:31:47.065 --> 01:31:48.425
And the data has shown this.

01:31:49.082 --> 01:31:53.476
We also know that one in five people who are locked up are there for a drug offense.

01:31:53.888 --> 01:31:56.825
So as I said, it's a huge feeder into the criminal legal system.

01:31:56.825 --> 01:32:02.758
You cannot talk about reforming the criminal legal system without talking about ending the war on drugs.

01:32:03.783 --> 01:32:08.955
Yeah. And, you know, one of the things I think your organization is pushing

01:32:08.955 --> 01:32:15.357
is to end mandatory minimum sentencing and stuff like that.

01:32:16.451 --> 01:32:20.904
Yes, we always fight against bills that impose new criminal penalties.

01:32:22.447 --> 01:32:26.317
Mandatory minimums. And for people who don't know what a mandatory minimum is,

01:32:26.317 --> 01:32:29.925
it means that you'll tie a judge's hand so that they have to,

01:32:30.500 --> 01:32:35.283
give you a set intent based on the specific substance that you've had,

01:32:35.411 --> 01:32:38.307
or the specific, if we want to go broader, broader than drugs,

01:32:38.429 --> 01:32:41.825
the specific crime that they're blaming you for.

01:32:42.790 --> 01:32:45.572
So yeah, so we've always fought against these criminal penalties for drugs.

01:32:45.797 --> 01:32:50.647
Yeah, because the other thing was, and that was some, when I was elected, that was the big thing.

01:32:50.647 --> 01:32:57.577
We were saying, so you're saying somebody that alters cocaine gets a longer

01:32:57.577 --> 01:32:59.756
sentence than people that take pure cocaine.

01:33:00.393 --> 01:33:05.281
And we were saying that doesn't sound right. And that sounds kind of racial.

01:33:05.936 --> 01:33:08.957
And so, you know, even in Mississippi, it was like, you know,

01:33:08.957 --> 01:33:17.207
we're going to have to change that a little bit. So, yeah, most definitely those two work hand in hand.

01:33:17.527 --> 01:33:22.474
And if we're going to have real criminal justice reform, we need to look at,

01:33:23.102 --> 01:33:29.197
this whole policy or this whole concept about being on war drugs or.

01:33:31.695 --> 01:33:35.559
There's a whole lot. Let me stay focused. How much money?

01:33:35.750 --> 01:33:38.175
I did want to quickly comment on something that you said, though,

01:33:38.175 --> 01:33:40.755
because I think this is important for the audience to understand,

01:33:40.755 --> 01:33:43.262
is that when we think about drug laws,

01:33:43.818 --> 01:33:47.735
you know, lawmakers will like to tell you that they are going after the so-called

01:33:47.735 --> 01:33:52.705
kingpins, people at the top of the chain who are maybe mixing the drugs or even

01:33:52.705 --> 01:33:57.163
above that, people who are responsible for like these bigger drug supply chains.

01:33:57.558 --> 01:34:01.395
But that's not actually what happens when you look at who is prosecuted for drug crimes.

01:34:01.899 --> 01:34:06.775
At the federal level, for example, we know that drug prosecutions are based

01:34:07.199 --> 01:34:13.665
largely or concentrated, I should say, largely on the lowest levels of the drug distribution chain.

01:34:13.665 --> 01:34:18.736
I'm talking about people who possess drugs, probably because they also use drugs.

01:34:19.079 --> 01:34:24.485
And these are individuals who would most benefit from some sort of addiction

01:34:24.485 --> 01:34:28.180
treatment or some other social support, not prison.

01:34:28.442 --> 01:34:32.274
We're not going after the Tinkins. We're going after the people who most need help.

01:34:32.570 --> 01:34:37.138
And by the way, we also know that the sentences are very racially disproportionate.

01:34:37.521 --> 01:34:41.475
It's highly concentrated in Black and Latino communities when we know that Black

01:34:41.475 --> 01:34:44.499
and Latino people do not use drugs more than other groups of people.

01:34:45.573 --> 01:34:50.143
But they are policed more, and they probably do use drugs publicly more than

01:34:50.143 --> 01:34:54.653
other groups of people because they are often pushed into public situations

01:34:54.653 --> 01:34:55.820
more than other groups of people.

01:34:56.233 --> 01:35:00.235
And that exposes them to more interactions with the police.

01:35:00.891 --> 01:35:03.923
I just wanted to share that, that, you know, they like to tell us we're going

01:35:03.923 --> 01:35:06.510
after the kingpins, but that's not actually what happens in practice.

01:35:06.853 --> 01:35:09.933
No, it's, you know, and I've spent years in law enforcement,

01:35:09.933 --> 01:35:12.263
so we call that the low-hanging fruit.

01:35:12.490 --> 01:35:17.155
You know, it's easy to get the kids that's out there dealing or whatever,

01:35:17.596 --> 01:35:19.903
and it's very rare that you can go up the chain.

01:35:19.903 --> 01:35:24.443
And then that's when politics gets involved, you know, when you're trying to

01:35:24.443 --> 01:35:29.050
get the big suppliers and all that kind of stuff.

01:35:29.640 --> 01:35:34.443
So how much money can be saved by focusing on diversion and deflection efforts

01:35:34.443 --> 01:35:37.848
rather than building more prisons and incarcerating more individuals?

01:35:38.957 --> 01:35:44.057
Good question. I've never been good at math, but I imagine that number would be in the trillions.

01:35:44.057 --> 01:35:48.417
And I say that because there was a study that came out, and this was a few years

01:35:48.417 --> 01:35:52.517
ago, and they had estimated how much the drug war had cost U.S.

01:35:52.517 --> 01:35:55.917
Taxpayers. And at that point, it was a trillion dollars. And again,

01:35:55.917 --> 01:35:58.579
this was like a few years ago, maybe even a decade ago.

01:35:59.211 --> 01:36:04.057
But it makes sense. If you think about the vast amount of money that we're spending

01:36:04.057 --> 01:36:06.972
on enforcement that could actually go to support people,

01:36:07.472 --> 01:36:11.692
to ensure that when people are ready to receive treatment, the doors are open,

01:36:12.174 --> 01:36:17.077
that they can receive addiction treatment when they desire, that if they need

01:36:17.077 --> 01:36:19.785
help securing a job, that they have that support.

01:36:20.173 --> 01:36:23.727
If they need legal support for re-entry because they have a criminal conviction,

01:36:23.727 --> 01:36:26.153
that that support is provided within their community.

01:36:26.587 --> 01:36:30.397
There are so many ways that we could build healthier communities by investing

01:36:30.397 --> 01:36:35.493
in individuals, and that in turn would result in greater public safety for all of us.

01:36:36.032 --> 01:36:39.497
Unfortunately, this is not how politicians see it. They'd rather.

01:36:40.382 --> 01:36:45.378
You know, think very short-minded because it's good for a political season,

01:36:45.749 --> 01:36:49.117
and what sells is locking people up and throwing away the key.

01:36:49.772 --> 01:36:53.378
That is changing, I will say, and it's changing because people see it,

01:36:53.930 --> 01:36:59.828
but we still have a lot of people, including in Congress, who would rather take,

01:37:00.489 --> 01:37:05.510
the easier route rather than investing in people because that does take time.

01:37:05.726 --> 01:37:07.073
It takes money. It takes time.

01:37:07.821 --> 01:37:11.697
You're not going to see results right away. But we've been doing the war on

01:37:11.697 --> 01:37:16.087
drugs for decades, and that hasn't resulted in anything successful either.

01:37:16.087 --> 01:37:17.806
It's been an absolute failure.

01:37:18.207 --> 01:37:21.817
Now we have more drugs than ever before on the streets, more people than ever

01:37:21.817 --> 01:37:23.890
before in jails and prisons.

01:37:24.157 --> 01:37:27.197
We have an addiction crisis like we've never seen before. So that's also been

01:37:27.197 --> 01:37:29.956
a failure. I think it's about time that they try something new.

01:37:31.674 --> 01:37:36.597
So that leads me to my next question. You work on Capitol Hill on behalf of the Alliance.

01:37:37.212 --> 01:37:42.424
In this political climate, how challenging has it been to convey that message to Congress?

01:37:43.395 --> 01:37:48.075
Now, I've seen a shift. I will say that under President Biden,

01:37:48.075 --> 01:37:51.404
I started to see a shift in how we talked about drugs.

01:37:51.869 --> 01:37:57.464
And President Biden was really the first that talked about health approaches to drug use.

01:37:58.017 --> 01:38:01.695
He still used a carrot and stick approach. You know, he's still very much believed

01:38:01.695 --> 01:38:04.164
in the criminal enforcement that we don't believe in.

01:38:04.628 --> 01:38:08.455
But at the same time, he was the first to really talk about investing in health

01:38:08.455 --> 01:38:10.726
approaches to drug use, including harm reduction.

01:38:11.358 --> 01:38:14.625
And for people who don't know where harm reduction is, it means meeting people

01:38:14.625 --> 01:38:19.155
who use drugs where they're at, but making sure that they have things like naloxone

01:38:19.155 --> 01:38:21.636
in case they overdose and need to reverse it.

01:38:22.066 --> 01:38:25.565
Things like drug checking tools so they can check substances and then make a

01:38:25.565 --> 01:38:29.409
decision about if they want to use it and if they do how they want to use it.

01:38:29.996 --> 01:38:35.185
It also includes things like clean needles. And he was really the first president

01:38:35.185 --> 01:38:39.733
that talked about harm reduction and the need to invest in these tools

01:38:40.133 --> 01:38:45.126
in order to ensure that people didn't overdose or develop disease because of drug use.

01:38:45.549 --> 01:38:49.965
And that really worked because now we're seeing overdose numbers really come

01:38:49.965 --> 01:38:52.035
down like we haven't seen in years.

01:38:52.511 --> 01:38:56.375
Unfortunately, the Trump administration has reversed all of that progress and

01:38:56.375 --> 01:39:01.325
has attacked harm reduction outside of naloxone. You know, they say naloxone

01:39:01.325 --> 01:39:04.684
is good, but outside of naloxone, they won't support harm reduction.

01:39:05.311 --> 01:39:08.665
And that's a huge detriment because, as I said, the reason we were able to make

01:39:08.665 --> 01:39:11.911
so much progress is because, for once, we started to change our approach.

01:39:12.549 --> 01:39:17.545
But the good thing about Biden doing that is that I think lawmakers then felt

01:39:17.545 --> 01:39:21.141
like they could also be advocates for health approaches to drug use.

01:39:21.739 --> 01:39:23.782
So you have seen a shift on the Hill.

01:39:24.488 --> 01:39:30.088
That said, you know, the criminal legal approach continues to be very popular across party lines.

01:39:30.639 --> 01:39:33.506
So we have a long ways to go to really change hearts and minds,

01:39:33.651 --> 01:39:34.754
at least on Capitol Hill.

01:39:35.224 --> 01:39:42.341
Yeah, I know I'm a certified CPR instructor. And so now that's part of the training,

01:39:42.979 --> 01:39:44.952
that we've added is the naloxone.

01:39:45.944 --> 01:39:49.382
We have to teach people how to how to use that and stuff. So,

01:39:50.067 --> 01:39:52.935
like you said, the climate is changing.

01:39:53.137 --> 01:39:58.432
People are becoming a little more, I think, sensitive, especially on the health end.

01:39:59.057 --> 01:40:03.904
But politically, like you said, it's like, you know, every every judge candidate,

01:40:03.904 --> 01:40:09.234
they can't run on like cases that they will potentially work on.

01:40:09.234 --> 01:40:11.380
But they can all say, I'm gonna lock them up.

01:40:11.671 --> 01:40:14.604
You know what I'm saying? And if they, you know, and so that's,

01:40:15.044 --> 01:40:17.944
for whatever reason, America has a penchant for just locking,

01:40:18.264 --> 01:40:24.354
lock them up is a great political slogan. But we got to, that's a whole nother conversation.

01:40:24.926 --> 01:40:29.284
Marijuana legalization is gaining traction because they realize,

01:40:29.923 --> 01:40:34.694
because states realize that they can benefit from the taxes like they have for alcohol.

01:40:35.223 --> 01:40:39.170
How long do you think it will be before the federal government follows the lead to the states?

01:40:39.886 --> 01:40:43.414
You know, that remains to be seen. Something really interesting is happening

01:40:43.414 --> 01:40:45.354
with marijuana right now at the federal level.

01:40:45.354 --> 01:40:50.124
People may have seen that the Trump administration ordered that medical marijuana

01:40:50.124 --> 01:40:55.692
that's approved at the state level be moved to Schedule 3 of the Controlled Substances Act.

01:40:56.471 --> 01:41:01.714
That is a long-winded way of saying there is some federal legal reform around

01:41:01.714 --> 01:41:09.344
marijuana, but it doesn't make any marijuana legal other than certain state

01:41:09.344 --> 01:41:10.704
legal medical marijuana.

01:41:10.704 --> 01:41:14.124
You have to be approved by the DEA. You have to go through this process.

01:41:14.124 --> 01:41:18.251
And if you're able to do that, then they'll approve your medical marijuana.

01:41:18.634 --> 01:41:23.272
But for the most part, marijuana remains illegal at the federal level.

01:41:23.401 --> 01:41:24.856
It's federally prohibited.

01:41:25.170 --> 01:41:30.744
The Drug Enforcement Administration actually just wrapped up hearings that were

01:41:30.744 --> 01:41:36.384
ordered by this order from the Trump administration, where they are going to,

01:41:37.144 --> 01:41:41.074
come out with an announcement on whether or not they think all marijuana should

01:41:41.074 --> 01:41:43.984
be moved to Schedule 3 of the Controlled Substances Act. Yeah.

01:41:44.864 --> 01:41:48.054
Policy Alliance has been watching this closely, but I will say that we don't

01:41:48.054 --> 01:41:50.601
support moving marijuana to Schedule 3.

01:41:50.717 --> 01:41:55.437
It's called rescheduling because you're just moving it from Schedule 1 of the CSA to Schedule 3.

01:41:56.040 --> 01:42:00.584
We support descheduling. We support completely removing marijuana from the Controlled

01:42:00.584 --> 01:42:04.834
Substances Act because that is the only way that we will have decrim,

01:42:04.834 --> 01:42:06.466
decriminalization for marijuana.

01:42:07.174 --> 01:42:10.421
And that would be huge because if we decriminalize the plant,

01:42:10.560 --> 01:42:13.573
We decriminalize the people and the collateral consequences.

01:42:13.927 --> 01:42:16.334
Unfortunately, I don't think the federal government is there.

01:42:16.334 --> 01:42:20.370
I think we'll probably see some sort of Schedule 3 placement.

01:42:21.421 --> 01:42:25.447
People might think, well, wouldn't that at least be better than nothing?

01:42:26.197 --> 01:42:31.055
To some degree, maybe, especially if you're a medical marijuana patient who then has legal access.

01:42:31.618 --> 01:42:35.473
But as long as federal prohibition remains in place, people are at risk,

01:42:35.670 --> 01:42:40.055
huge risk of collateral consequences and criminalization.

01:42:40.555 --> 01:42:44.309
For example, if you're a non-citizen who's a medical marijuana patient,

01:42:44.872 --> 01:42:48.991
even that use, even though it's completely legal, can expose you to automatic

01:42:48.991 --> 01:42:53.255
detention and deportation because marijuana remains a federally prohibited substance,

01:42:53.562 --> 01:42:54.973
as long as it's on the CSA.

01:42:55.594 --> 01:42:59.001
And for those who don't know, the CSA or the Controlled Substances Act is the

01:42:59.001 --> 01:43:03.742
federal law that we use to essentially criminalize substances.

01:43:04.225 --> 01:43:08.261
We have Schedules 1 through 5. Schedule 1 is reserved for the drugs that are

01:43:08.261 --> 01:43:12.763
supposed to be the harshest, like the most susceptible to abuse,

01:43:13.396 --> 01:43:18.571
the quote-unquote scariest drugs marijuana has been on schedule one since the

01:43:18.571 --> 01:43:21.141
csa was created and put into law in,

01:43:21.761 --> 01:43:27.331
1971 signed by nixon so this would be historic reform if it removed to a lower

01:43:27.331 --> 01:43:28.701
schedule schedule three at

01:43:28.701 --> 01:43:33.033
least recognizes that it has medical value but other than that recognition,

01:43:33.786 --> 01:43:38.941
much of the framework would remain the same so what we really need is to remove marijuana from.

01:43:40.328 --> 01:43:44.421
Controlled Substances Act, but also acknowledge all the harm that marijuana has caused.

01:43:44.421 --> 01:43:46.673
Marijuana criminalization has caused over decades.

01:43:47.073 --> 01:43:49.861
This is why we're working on federal bills that would do just that,

01:43:49.861 --> 01:43:54.614
that would address marijuana broadly, decriminalize them, and address harm to communities.

01:43:55.359 --> 01:44:00.470
You know, I was thinking about when you were giving that answer,

01:44:01.133 --> 01:44:07.261
you know, we were celebrating our 250th anniversary and as a country or declaring

01:44:07.261 --> 01:44:15.955
our independence anyway and marijuana, alcohol, tobacco, everything was legal in 1776.

01:44:16.912 --> 01:44:21.102
You know, we developed a nation out of it. So it just seemed to me it's like

01:44:21.102 --> 01:44:24.732
if you really want to celebrate the 250th anniversary, then you should just

01:44:24.732 --> 01:44:26.412
go back and legalize everything.

01:44:26.812 --> 01:44:31.652
Just let people make decisions based on, you know, their discipline or their,

01:44:31.652 --> 01:44:34.642
you know, in some cases, their health or whatever.

01:44:34.642 --> 01:44:38.902
But I was just thinking that out loud. Anyway, speaking about legalization,

01:44:38.902 --> 01:44:44.439
should psychedelics like Ibogaine and I'm going to see if I'm saying is right, psilocybin,

01:44:45.013 --> 01:44:49.686
mushrooms be legalized under the philosophy that health and consumption decisions,

01:44:50.212 --> 01:44:54.056
should be made by the individual and a qualified health provider, not law enforcement.

01:44:54.571 --> 01:44:59.152
So what's interesting is that generally psychedelics are having a movement.

01:44:59.552 --> 01:45:03.042
They are also getting a lot of attention at the federal level.

01:45:03.350 --> 01:45:07.312
And I'll be really honest about what I think is happening both with medical

01:45:07.312 --> 01:45:11.792
marijuana and psychedelics and even other substances that you may or may not

01:45:11.792 --> 01:45:14.301
have heard of, like Kratom, 7-OH.

01:45:14.748 --> 01:45:19.234
These drugs have really powerful and moneyed interests behind them,

01:45:19.635 --> 01:45:26.212
lobbyists who are willing to pay to play, and that's having a positive impact for those substances.

01:45:26.833 --> 01:45:31.702
We also have to look at the profile who uses these substances or who is the

01:45:31.702 --> 01:45:35.241
face of these substances. And oftentimes, we're talking about white people.

01:45:35.642 --> 01:45:40.841
We're talking about veterans who tend to be more sympathetic to lawmakers.

01:45:41.295 --> 01:45:45.347
But that's resulted in more movement for these substances at the federal level,

01:45:45.870 --> 01:45:49.502
and support from the Trump administration and even Republicans in Congress to

01:45:49.502 --> 01:45:51.945
move these substances off.

01:45:52.607 --> 01:45:57.202
The drug schedule or to make them more accessible, to even study and research

01:45:57.202 --> 01:45:58.932
them for therapeutic potential.

01:45:58.932 --> 01:46:02.833
We know that Kennedy's interested in doing that too, who runs Health and Human Services.

01:46:03.476 --> 01:46:07.158
So yes, I do think people should have access to these substances.

01:46:07.499 --> 01:46:10.802
I do think we should research into these substances. I think this is great progress.

01:46:10.802 --> 01:46:16.702
I just wish that we had the same mindset when it comes to other substances that

01:46:16.702 --> 01:46:19.049
maybe don't have the sympathetic face attached to them.

01:46:20.044 --> 01:46:25.334
Yeah. And Maritza, that's one of the reasons why I wanted you on the show,

01:46:25.334 --> 01:46:27.103
because you make it plain.

01:46:27.253 --> 01:46:30.304
And I don't think there's anybody

01:46:30.304 --> 01:46:34.724
else that could have broke that down as eloquently as you just did.

01:46:35.631 --> 01:46:41.245
How does the Drug Policy Alliance envision a more perfect union as it relates to their work?

01:46:42.247 --> 01:46:47.654
You know, that's a great question. I think, as I said at the top of this interview,

01:46:47.770 --> 01:46:52.437
we are really invested in ensuring that people have what they need to thrive,

01:46:53.127 --> 01:46:58.345
that people have not just human rights, but their basic civil liberties.

01:46:58.844 --> 01:47:04.331
And we've seen how the drug war has been used to take that away from people.

01:47:04.463 --> 01:47:11.790
And that's especially true under this administration. We really are seeing authoritarianism rise up.

01:47:12.289 --> 01:47:15.122
And we see that even through the drug war.

01:47:15.557 --> 01:47:21.716
You know, one example is President Trump has decided it's perfectly fine to,

01:47:22.192 --> 01:47:26.924
shoot missiles random fishermen in Latin America, all in the name of,

01:47:26.924 --> 01:47:29.850
quote unquote, stopping fentanyl from entering the U.S.

01:47:30.326 --> 01:47:32.015
These people are being killed without a trial.

01:47:33.269 --> 01:47:37.009
Been no information shared with Congress about why this is happening,

01:47:37.009 --> 01:47:39.845
who has been targeted, if and when it will stop.

01:47:40.571 --> 01:47:45.035
At this point, more than 200 people have been killed in international waters.

01:47:45.735 --> 01:47:49.249
And by the way, it hasn't done anything to alleviate the supply because we know

01:47:49.249 --> 01:47:50.851
that that's not where fentanyl is coming from.

01:47:51.442 --> 01:47:56.085
It's not coming from random fishermen in Latin American sees.

01:47:56.576 --> 01:48:01.917
We know where fentanyl comes from, and the supply has not slowed down.

01:48:02.839 --> 01:48:08.079
No drug supply has actually slowed down. As I said, we're still facing a situation

01:48:08.079 --> 01:48:09.788
where the illicit drug supply is very strong.

01:48:10.690 --> 01:48:16.762
But these are authoritarian tactics. Extrajudicial killings are an authoritarian tactic.

01:48:17.290 --> 01:48:22.794
And I'm really afraid that what we're seeing internationally will come home to roost.

01:48:23.495 --> 01:48:27.729
What we see even in the immigration space will come back to all of us.

01:48:27.729 --> 01:48:32.469
And we've already seen that, you know, when immigrants were demonized,

01:48:32.469 --> 01:48:34.511
I think a lot of people thought it would stay there.

01:48:34.889 --> 01:48:40.032
But we've seen how U.S. citizens had even been killed by ICE enforcement and CBP.

01:48:40.763 --> 01:48:43.559
Really scary times we're living in, and we have to really think about the way

01:48:43.559 --> 01:48:47.357
that the drug war is used to further this authoritarian agenda.

01:48:48.411 --> 01:48:55.031
Yeah. Well, you know, speaking about the authoritarian gender and the ice crackdowns

01:48:55.031 --> 01:49:00.324
and all that, there was a tragedy that happened in California with a farm worker, I believe.

01:49:00.929 --> 01:49:07.182
And that kind of got you and a few other folks to create a nonprofit.

01:49:07.640 --> 01:49:11.912
So tell the story about this nonprofit, this project you're working on,

01:49:12.428 --> 01:49:17.831
and, you know, just what motivated y'all to do this and what do you hope to

01:49:17.831 --> 01:49:19.209
accomplish with the nonprofit?

01:49:19.833 --> 01:49:24.051
Yes, thank you so much for asking about that. So the incident you're referring

01:49:24.051 --> 01:49:30.710
to was an ice raid that we saw on Glass House Farms, a cannabis farm in California.

01:49:31.175 --> 01:49:36.806
This was, if not the first, one of the first ice raids that we saw under the Trump administration.

01:49:37.410 --> 01:49:42.301
And unfortunately, during that raid, not only were a lot of people injured and

01:49:42.301 --> 01:49:46.957
arrested, but one man actually died trying to escape ICE. He fell from a roof.

01:49:47.723 --> 01:49:52.146
This man had been a laborer in the industry for years and years.

01:49:52.309 --> 01:49:54.004
You know, he did this to support his family.

01:49:54.683 --> 01:50:00.837
And many of us, especially Latinos who are in this space, were really disappointed

01:50:00.953 --> 01:50:05.400
that the greater cannabis industry didn't connect the dots and,

01:50:05.666 --> 01:50:07.791
you know, moved on as if nothing had happened.

01:50:07.791 --> 01:50:11.757
But for us, it was really clear that there is a clear intersection here between

01:50:11.925 --> 01:50:14.264
immigrant rights and cannabis justice.

01:50:14.848 --> 01:50:18.929
We have to recognize that immigrant labor, particularly Latino immigrant labor,

01:50:19.352 --> 01:50:23.334
is the reason that we have legal cannabis in a lot of places like California.

01:50:23.979 --> 01:50:28.961
We're also a huge portion of the consumer base. We're also folks who are in

01:50:28.961 --> 01:50:34.351
the industry doing other things like creating product or blood tenders. Yet...

01:50:36.067 --> 01:50:40.857
Things that would improve quality of life for Latino immigrants are never something

01:50:40.857 --> 01:50:46.110
that you hear cannabis folks advocating for. So we were created to change that.

01:50:46.655 --> 01:50:50.847
We are the Latino Cannabis Alliance, and this is an organization that I co-founded

01:50:50.847 --> 01:50:57.686
with other amazing advocates in the space, from lawyers to folks in the industry to organizers.

01:50:59.061 --> 01:51:03.367
All of these individuals wanted to join forces to again really center Latino

01:51:03.367 --> 01:51:08.037
voices in cannabis justice, especially at this time when Latino immigrant communities

01:51:08.037 --> 01:51:12.698
are under attack, where our people are being killed, our people are being racially profiled.

01:51:13.099 --> 01:51:20.477
And cannabis prohibition is one way that the Trump administration is justifying this.

01:51:20.872 --> 01:51:24.427
Already under this administration, we know that more than 600 people have been

01:51:24.427 --> 01:51:27.211
deported simply for marijuana activity.

01:51:28.064 --> 01:51:30.769
And I want to be clear because I think people get this confused.

01:51:31.883 --> 01:51:35.914
You're a non-citizen and if you're participating in an illegal marijuana market,

01:51:36.487 --> 01:51:39.237
that doesn't protect you just because the state market is legal,

01:51:39.668 --> 01:51:41.943
because marijuana remains federally prohibited.

01:51:42.356 --> 01:51:45.415
So you could be a medical marijuana patient complying with state law.

01:51:45.745 --> 01:51:48.561
You could be a worker in the industry complying with state law.

01:51:49.084 --> 01:51:53.163
You could be somebody who's growing plants, according to state law.

01:51:53.163 --> 01:51:58.186
But because of your immigration status, you are still susceptible to detention and deportation.

01:51:58.546 --> 01:52:02.583
Really harsh penalties. I think even harsher than the criminal legal system

01:52:02.583 --> 01:52:05.396
because you're talking about ripping somebody away from their home and family

01:52:05.645 --> 01:52:09.904
forever because of this plant being prohibited.

01:52:10.067 --> 01:52:13.967
So we aim to not just educate our community and other communities about it,

01:52:14.530 --> 01:52:21.593
but also, again, amplify the reason we need to talk about these issues beyond

01:52:21.593 --> 01:52:23.513
just like what the industry needs.

01:52:23.513 --> 01:52:27.943
We need to talk about the harm that cannabis prohibition has caused on communities,

01:52:27.943 --> 01:52:31.583
including Latino and immigrant communities. Yeah.

01:52:34.397 --> 01:52:39.073
I think the term that they try to use is moral turpitude. That's where they

01:52:39.073 --> 01:52:43.989
get people like that and try to deport them or whatever.

01:52:45.122 --> 01:52:51.794
So I want to finish out the interview with this challenge. I need you to finish this sentence.

01:52:52.288 --> 01:52:54.036
I have hope because...

01:52:55.758 --> 01:53:01.333
Have hope because I think that when people know better, they will do better.

01:53:02.006 --> 01:53:06.448
And that's one thing that I like about my job as an advocate is that I get to

01:53:06.448 --> 01:53:09.878
educate people about these issues that they might not be aware of.

01:53:10.557 --> 01:53:13.988
I think of a lot of, when I think about injustice, I do think a lot of injustice

01:53:13.988 --> 01:53:16.094
happens because people simply don't know.

01:53:16.675 --> 01:53:20.396
People are simply trying to survive, you know, live their own lives.

01:53:20.987 --> 01:53:24.918
But I think the more you know, I think ultimately people are good And people

01:53:24.918 --> 01:53:27.547
want to help their communities. They want to help one another.

01:53:28.278 --> 01:53:33.631
And, you know, I think that's one positive thing that we've seen come out of social media.

01:53:33.840 --> 01:53:41.198
We've seen some really encouraging participation from people when they see injustice.

01:53:41.518 --> 01:53:47.638
When I think about, you know, the racial justice protests we saw around George

01:53:47.638 --> 01:53:51.968
Floyd's death from even the recent protests and pushback that we're seeing because

01:53:51.968 --> 01:53:55.474
of all these individuals who have unfortunately been killed by ICE.

01:53:56.553 --> 01:54:01.081
I have hope because I think people care. And I think when people know better, they do.

01:54:01.912 --> 01:54:06.058
Yeah. So you mentioned that the Drug Policy Alliance is a nonprofit,

01:54:06.058 --> 01:54:08.820
correct? Yes. So y'all need money.

01:54:09.388 --> 01:54:13.968
So how can people donate to the Drug Policy Alliance? How can they reach out

01:54:13.968 --> 01:54:16.534
to them, get information? How can people reach out to you?

01:54:17.242 --> 01:54:21.328
That's a really great question. Yeah, people should check out drugpolicy.org.

01:54:21.951 --> 01:54:25.458
If you go to that website, you can learn more about the drug more generally.

01:54:25.458 --> 01:54:30.438
You can learn more about our work. You can follow our organization by signing

01:54:30.438 --> 01:54:34.128
up to receive updates. But you can also follow us on social media.

01:54:34.529 --> 01:54:38.151
And you'll find a place to donate if you just check out our website. Right.

01:54:39.365 --> 01:54:42.785
So find us there. Same with Latino Cannabis Alliance.

01:54:43.265 --> 01:54:47.485
You can find us at latinocannabisalliance.org. If you want to engage with us,

01:54:47.485 --> 01:54:48.930
we're also on social media.

01:54:49.613 --> 01:54:56.585
And I'm on social media as well, but my social media is not as probably as exciting

01:54:56.585 --> 01:55:00.215
if you want news updates as my LinkedIn is. But people can also find me on LinkedIn

01:55:00.215 --> 01:55:03.921
if they want to know what's happening at the federal level around drug policy.

01:55:04.688 --> 01:55:09.725
All right. Well, Maritza Perez, Medina, I am really, really honored that you

01:55:09.725 --> 01:55:11.381
came on the podcast today.

01:55:12.605 --> 01:55:16.945
I greatly appreciate the work that you're doing. And, you know,

01:55:17.815 --> 01:55:21.265
I know a lot of people might say, well, this is an extreme position.

01:55:21.265 --> 01:55:28.335
But again, 250 years ago, everything was legal. It was up to you whether you

01:55:28.335 --> 01:55:30.709
had access to it or whether you wanted to do it.

01:55:31.271 --> 01:55:37.337
And I think we would do better in society if we we focused in on,

01:55:38.076 --> 01:55:41.895
other things other than just trying to lock people up, either because they have

01:55:41.895 --> 01:55:46.413
a drug addiction or they they have mental health issues.

01:55:46.761 --> 01:55:50.305
And I promise the listeners,

01:55:51.214 --> 01:55:58.739
if we focused in on other crimes instead of drugs or criminalizing mental health,

01:55:59.407 --> 01:56:02.031
this whole system would be a whole lot better.

01:56:02.558 --> 01:56:09.421
And so, again, Marissa, I really appreciate you being on the front line doing what you do.

01:56:09.854 --> 01:56:11.902
And again, thank you for coming on the podcast.

01:56:12.587 --> 01:56:15.955
Thank you for inviting me. I had a great time. Thank you. All right,

01:56:15.955 --> 01:56:17.939
guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:56:31.767 --> 01:56:41.107
And so now I want to thank Charles Gueli, Alexa Morris, and Maritza Perez-Medina

01:56:41.107 --> 01:56:43.117
for coming on to the podcast.

01:56:43.680 --> 01:56:46.780
Great interviews. I hope y'all enjoyed them.

01:56:47.611 --> 01:56:52.040
Charles, after his interview, was going to give a lecture about Thomas Jefferson.

01:56:54.524 --> 01:56:58.894
At his local library. I wish I could have been there to hear that because I'm

01:56:58.894 --> 01:57:00.756
sure that was very compelling.

01:57:01.410 --> 01:57:05.718
You know, Alexa Morris and her book, The Courtyard, please get that.

01:57:06.508 --> 01:57:09.933
It's a beautiful story. It is not the typical Holocaust story.

01:57:10.531 --> 01:57:19.052
Yeah, the Nazis are in there and they're invading Paris and all that stuff, but it's not as stark or,

01:57:19.760 --> 01:57:25.872
horrible as the other stories because of the experience that Benjamin Parket had.

01:57:27.106 --> 01:57:34.070
And it's really, really, really an amazing book. And then Maritza Perez-Medina.

01:57:35.354 --> 01:57:41.468
I found out how fortunate I was to reschedule her because she's going to be a mom.

01:57:42.257 --> 01:57:49.194
So I offered her congratulations on that. And so, you know, but I really appreciate,

01:57:49.896 --> 01:57:56.364
her steadfastness and her commitment to reforming drug policy in the United

01:57:56.364 --> 01:57:57.668
States because it's needed.

01:57:58.296 --> 01:58:03.944
And if you reform drug policy in the United States, that'll be a major step

01:58:03.944 --> 01:58:06.694
in reforming the criminal justice system in the United States.

01:58:06.694 --> 01:58:13.156
So I wish her well on her pregnancy and the birth of her child.

01:58:14.027 --> 01:58:17.945
So she's going to be taking a break for a minute. But when she gets back,

01:58:18.589 --> 01:58:22.184
one of the things I said to her, I said, I will thank you for bringing another

01:58:22.184 --> 01:58:28.834
activist in the world because I know her child is going to be on fire pushing

01:58:28.834 --> 01:58:31.144
for a lot of the progressive things that we need,

01:58:31.664 --> 01:58:36.478
either while I'm here or just a really old, old man. So I'm looking forward to that.

01:58:38.527 --> 01:58:44.147
So I want to touch on three things real quick. And the first thing I need to

01:58:44.147 --> 01:58:47.565
reiterate is that I have said on this show,

01:58:48.424 --> 01:58:54.670
and I'm pleading whoever the next Democratic president is, that they apologize.

01:58:54.868 --> 01:58:58.847
Whether it's the first day, like right after you give the inauguration speech,

01:58:58.847 --> 01:59:03.842
the first executive order, or immediately upon taking office.

01:59:04.504 --> 01:59:07.254
Because it's out of control.

01:59:07.938 --> 01:59:13.280
So it's an embarrassment to those of us who have worn a badge, and it needs to stop.

01:59:14.458 --> 01:59:26.449
In the last two weeks, we've lost Lorenzo Salgado Araujo in Houston, Texas,

01:59:27.215 --> 01:59:31.120
and Johann Sebastian Duran Guerrero in Maine.

01:59:32.393 --> 01:59:36.465
Neither one of those gentlemen were the target of ICE.

01:59:37.467 --> 01:59:43.257
They were killed in similar fashion. The officers were saying that the cars

01:59:43.257 --> 01:59:44.602
were being used as weapons.

01:59:45.232 --> 01:59:47.339
They were conducting traffic stops.

01:59:48.527 --> 01:59:55.207
And, you know, for whatever reason, those gentlemen didn't yield or panicked

01:59:55.207 --> 01:59:56.518
or wherever the case may be.

01:59:57.201 --> 02:00:01.931
And, you know, in the area of Houston, Texas, where Mr. Araujo was,

02:00:02.987 --> 02:00:04.287
it was a lot of carjackings.

02:00:04.577 --> 02:00:06.725
So he wasn't going to stop.

02:00:07.787 --> 02:00:11.724
If you see some people that are wearing masks and carrying guns,

02:00:12.095 --> 02:00:13.070
you don't know who they are.

02:00:13.782 --> 02:00:20.787
Yeah, I'm not stopping. Right? And then Mr. Guerrero, he literally just pulled

02:00:20.787 --> 02:00:22.950
out of his driveway, heading to work.

02:00:24.557 --> 02:00:29.557
And, you know, he had, he was legally here in the United States.

02:00:29.557 --> 02:00:31.058
He had worker authorization.

02:00:32.337 --> 02:00:40.344
And, you know, before he even gets off his block, next thing we know, he's no longer with us.

02:00:41.191 --> 02:00:47.354
And his wife and his three-year-old child saw him being dragged out of a car, lifeless.

02:00:48.152 --> 02:00:54.247
I know in the short time that these quote-unquote ICE officers are being trained,

02:00:54.948 --> 02:00:57.381
they have no clue what a traffic stop is or how to do it.

02:00:58.221 --> 02:01:05.537
And so, you know, this whole ICE thing has been a total, total failure. Total. And.

02:01:08.945 --> 02:01:16.989
It just needs to end. So I'm praying that whoever the next president is,

02:01:17.925 --> 02:01:19.213
that they just shut this down.

02:01:20.507 --> 02:01:25.357
Yeah, they just need to shut it down. There's no redeeming at this point.

02:01:25.697 --> 02:01:29.857
I mean, I wish we could go as far as to make sure that those people who are

02:01:29.857 --> 02:01:36.981
currently employed in ICE will never, ever be allowed to be in law enforcement again, right?

02:01:37.625 --> 02:01:44.437
That if any agency that wants federal dollars, if they hire those folks,

02:01:44.437 --> 02:01:48.628
then they forfeit those, they are no longer eligible for federal dollars.

02:01:49.179 --> 02:01:54.437
They can't participate in any federal programs, right? That's how serious I

02:01:54.437 --> 02:01:59.337
am about these individuals who are working in ICE right now that they will never

02:01:59.337 --> 02:02:03.329
be in law enforcement again, ever. This was their one shot.

02:02:05.337 --> 02:02:10.723
The man who is accused, has been identified as shooting Mr. Guerrero.

02:02:13.217 --> 02:02:16.295
And there's no way he could have passed a psych evaluation in any other law

02:02:16.295 --> 02:02:18.128
enforcement agency in the United States.

02:02:19.285 --> 02:02:25.369
And, but ICE gave him a badge of the gun and threw him out there.

02:02:26.328 --> 02:02:31.685
And so it doesn't matter if it's Christy Noem or Mark Wayne Mullen or Tom Homan or whoever.

02:02:32.555 --> 02:02:37.165
They've proven that ICE is a failure in the iteration that they have done it.

02:02:37.665 --> 02:02:41.819
And the only way you can fix it is to abolish it.

02:02:42.550 --> 02:02:48.523
Get rid of it. You got to figure out a new way to do what you want to do.

02:02:49.171 --> 02:02:54.549
But that institution, with the personnel that they have now.

02:02:57.555 --> 02:03:04.034
And, you know, it's interesting that those particular incidents happened in

02:03:04.034 --> 02:03:07.189
states where the Senate races are really, really close.

02:03:08.011 --> 02:03:14.654
And, you know, for those running under Republican banner, for you not to say

02:03:14.654 --> 02:03:18.444
anything or not to do anything, especially in Maine,

02:03:19.330 --> 02:03:27.803
to lead the charge, to not vote for any more money for Homeland Security and all that stuff in Texas.

02:03:28.485 --> 02:03:31.945
I mean, you know, the guy in Texas, he's a criminal anyway, so it doesn't matter.

02:03:32.293 --> 02:03:36.964
But, you know, what's the line that the Senator from Maine You know,

02:03:36.964 --> 02:03:38.787
he says she's concerned.

02:03:40.029 --> 02:03:45.490
Yeah, it's that's great that you're concerned, but we need action at this point.

02:03:46.310 --> 02:03:54.220
And there's nothing there's no redeeming ice. None. So that that needs to be abolished.

02:03:54.943 --> 02:04:00.911
And, you know, I'm praying for the Guerrero and Guerrero and Araujo family, Araujo families.

02:04:01.718 --> 02:04:08.509
And, you know, for all my Latino, Latinx brothers and sisters out there,

02:04:09.557 --> 02:04:15.419
you know, stay strong, you know, be careful and, you know, just...

02:04:18.342 --> 02:04:24.269
It's a dark moment, but we're going to get through it. So I just keep that in mind.

02:04:25.197 --> 02:04:29.612
Now, there's two scenarios that's happening with the U.S. Senate.

02:04:30.483 --> 02:04:35.262
One is very, very sad, and I'll get to that one in a minute,

02:04:35.262 --> 02:04:39.552
but the one that's terrible is this whole situation with Mitch McConnell.

02:04:39.552 --> 02:04:48.160
Now, I know people think that politics is a sport and it's all about games, gamesmanship and,

02:04:48.828 --> 02:04:54.962
you know, their mindset is we're just going to own our opponents and try to

02:04:54.962 --> 02:04:57.167
always one-up them and all that stuff.

02:04:57.728 --> 02:05:04.862
But, you know, I just, I really just think that where we are as a country and

02:05:04.862 --> 02:05:08.252
the way that the Republicans are doing things and they're just,

02:05:08.252 --> 02:05:12.610
the way that they think is so subhuman.

02:05:13.347 --> 02:05:14.695
It's so abhorrent.

02:05:15.699 --> 02:05:22.065
So in Kentucky, knowing Mitch McConnell's age and all that stuff, the Republicans,

02:05:22.769 --> 02:05:28.682
in the state legislature decided that they wanted to stop because Andy Basseer

02:05:28.682 --> 02:05:34.203
is a Democrat and he keeps getting elected governor despite the Republicans' efforts,

02:05:34.725 --> 02:05:38.675
because he's actually a good governor, and the people want that.

02:05:39.359 --> 02:05:45.432
And so, knowing that Mitch McConnell has had some health episodes and,

02:05:45.432 --> 02:05:49.817
like, freezing up on a microphone and at press conferences and stuff like that,

02:05:50.460 --> 02:05:56.905
Republicans decided that they wanted to neuter Basir's ability to pick a Democrat,

02:05:57.819 --> 02:05:59.890
to replace McConnell, right?

02:06:00.429 --> 02:06:05.872
Now, Basir probably would pick a Democrat, but he might pick a Republican that

02:06:05.872 --> 02:06:12.829
he likes, just to finish out McConnell's term, because McConnell's term ends in January. And so...

02:06:14.240 --> 02:06:19.505
Throw him a bone, because he's that kind of a dude. He would actually consider it, literally.

02:06:20.259 --> 02:06:26.070
But the Kentucky legislators, the Republican legislators, did not want to give

02:06:26.070 --> 02:06:30.850
Basir that chance. So they created this rule that I still don't quite understand

02:06:30.850 --> 02:06:34.729
how they did it, but it's the Commonwealth of Kentucky. I guess they can do what they want.

02:06:35.466 --> 02:06:39.640
But they created this rule that said that.

02:06:45.120 --> 02:06:54.534
If McConnell doesn't die before August the 3rd, right, of this year,

02:06:54.899 --> 02:06:58.429
then Basir can't appoint somebody to replace him.

02:06:59.324 --> 02:07:05.110
So I guess that's an arbitrary date that hits every time a Senate position.

02:07:05.110 --> 02:07:08.456
So I guess that would apply to Rand Paul in 28.

02:07:10.297 --> 02:07:16.277
But, you know, it's like, so if you can't pick anybody by August the 3rd,

02:07:16.277 --> 02:07:20.029
if Mitch McConnell doesn't die by August the 3rd, then that seat remains vacant,

02:07:20.909 --> 02:07:24.213
where they have to have a special election to finish out the term.

02:07:24.780 --> 02:07:28.222
Right. I think that's what it is. They have to have a special election to finish out the term.

02:07:29.672 --> 02:07:36.009
So the people of Kentucky possibly could be electing a senator for like a month,

02:07:36.630 --> 02:07:41.435
and then electing a senator for the next six years, this November. the way it's going.

02:07:42.604 --> 02:07:45.936
So, Mitch McConnell has basically disappeared.

02:07:46.795 --> 02:07:51.126
He went to the hospital. According to witnesses,

02:07:51.914 --> 02:07:58.127
he was not conscious when he was picked up in the ambulance and taken to not

02:07:58.127 --> 02:08:03.881
a hospital per se, but he's supposedly at a rehabilitation center.

02:08:04.897 --> 02:08:07.954
And we don't know if he's alive.

02:08:08.071 --> 02:08:14.307
Now, there are people going on TV, and every one of them that is Republican,

02:08:14.307 --> 02:08:17.697
including Scott Jennings, who used to work for Mitch,

02:08:18.614 --> 02:08:24.900
all of these people are saying, oh, yeah, I talked to him for 20 minutes, right?

02:08:25.611 --> 02:08:30.977
Like, that's like, I guess, in Republican mindset, that's a standard time to

02:08:30.977 --> 02:08:34.627
have a conversation with somebody to prove that they're alive,

02:08:34.627 --> 02:08:36.703
it's like 20 minute conversation.

02:08:37.761 --> 02:08:41.047
So all of them are having 20 minute conversations. You know,

02:08:41.047 --> 02:08:43.977
it's like, yeah, I talked to him for about a couple of minutes.

02:08:44.297 --> 02:08:48.847
You know, he said, hey, what's going on? You know, I talked to him for about

02:08:48.847 --> 02:08:51.825
an hour. I talked to him about a half hour. I talked to him about 50.

02:08:52.307 --> 02:08:56.066
Everybody's talked to him for exactly 20 minutes. Okay. And.

02:08:57.631 --> 02:09:03.291
And then they put up a picture of him and his wife, and it's obvious that it's

02:09:03.291 --> 02:09:04.821
not an up-to-date picture.

02:09:05.349 --> 02:09:11.071
One, because he's fully dressed, like he's about to be released from the hospital.

02:09:11.689 --> 02:09:18.201
And we know that his wife went to China for some kind of meeting right after

02:09:18.201 --> 02:09:21.871
he was admitted to this rehab center or whatever.

02:09:22.722 --> 02:09:26.130
So there's no way that picture could have happened.

02:09:27.011 --> 02:09:34.211
But they feel that they have such an influence over their base that they can,

02:09:34.885 --> 02:09:38.037
lie and say they talk to this man for 20 minutes and then,

02:09:38.780 --> 02:09:43.130
you know, they can post these old pictures and say, see, he's fine.

02:09:44.444 --> 02:09:49.314
These folks will say, believe that. And they might be right on their side.

02:09:50.220 --> 02:09:56.222
You know, I mean, over this last year or so, two years,

02:09:57.518 --> 02:10:02.234
people that I thought I knew, watching what they post and how they react to

02:10:02.234 --> 02:10:05.912
certain things on social media, I'm like, you might be right.

02:10:06.905 --> 02:10:09.001
You might be right. These people might buy that.

02:10:10.020 --> 02:10:13.845
But see, there's no legal repercussions for doing that.

02:10:14.731 --> 02:10:19.834
That just falls under political gamesmanship. We'll just lie and say that Mitch

02:10:19.834 --> 02:10:25.897
is alive. And then on August the 4th or August the 10th, we'll say that he died.

02:10:26.809 --> 02:10:32.264
And that's it. You know, and the thing that's fascinating is that there are

02:10:32.264 --> 02:10:35.744
two people that have not had a 20 minute conversation with Mitch McConnell.

02:10:35.744 --> 02:10:39.414
And that's the governor of Kentucky, Mr. Brazier, and the president of the United

02:10:39.414 --> 02:10:42.557
States, Mr. Trump. Neither one of them have had the 20 minute conversation.

02:10:43.343 --> 02:10:48.014
You would think that of all the people, I think I probably would talk to the

02:10:48.014 --> 02:10:51.616
president and talk to the governor before I talked to Scott Jennings.

02:10:52.199 --> 02:10:57.662
I understand they got a history, but I think they would be up on the chart first.

02:10:58.219 --> 02:11:05.054
Let me call these people. Because I remember when Katrina happened and the Speaker

02:11:05.054 --> 02:11:11.048
of the House sent out, you know, a call and asked for the members to check in.

02:11:12.423 --> 02:11:16.753
Of us that were in the affected area. So definitely wanted to hear from the

02:11:16.753 --> 02:11:24.248
coastal members, but the storm was so strong that it went straight up the state.

02:11:24.435 --> 02:11:27.522
So it impacted Jackson, impacted Clinton where I was.

02:11:28.395 --> 02:11:35.383
And so it was like we checked in and it wasn't long, like maybe about two or

02:11:35.383 --> 02:11:36.833
three minutes at the most.

02:11:37.620 --> 02:11:42.343
Just go and say, yeah, everything's fine. You know, if you had some damage to

02:11:42.343 --> 02:11:44.222
your house or, you know, whatever,

02:11:45.152 --> 02:11:50.803
you know, because he needed to assess when he could get all of us together to

02:11:50.803 --> 02:11:57.123
have a special session to address whatever we needed to address for the recovery after Katrina.

02:11:58.145 --> 02:12:01.943
I don't know, maybe your press conference about it and nobody had to,

02:12:02.823 --> 02:12:04.020
But we all had to check in.

02:12:04.805 --> 02:12:09.683
And once he realized everybody was safe, then he started working with the governor,

02:12:10.703 --> 02:12:14.187
and the lieutenant governor to figure out when we were going to have this special session.

02:12:15.700 --> 02:12:21.940
So Mitch McConnell ain't got to talk long. If he's okay, call the president,

02:12:22.572 --> 02:12:24.227
call the governor. I'm good.

02:12:24.995 --> 02:12:27.074
I'm going to be okay. I'll be back.

02:12:28.153 --> 02:12:33.510
That's it. That's all he got to say. And all of this stuff will be averted.

02:12:33.510 --> 02:12:38.200
But when you're sitting there and you're talking about a guy who allegedly had

02:12:38.200 --> 02:12:42.720
a heart attack or some kind of, you know, he didn't have a cardiac arrest or

02:12:42.720 --> 02:12:46.194
else he would be dead. Well, he may have had cardiac arrest. We don't know.

02:12:47.090 --> 02:12:51.790
But if you're saying, well, he just had a heart attack or he fell down and was

02:12:51.790 --> 02:12:56.026
unconscious or whatever, whatever lie you want to tell about his health condition.

02:12:57.008 --> 02:13:01.623
I don't know if I know I didn't want to talk to anybody for 20 minutes and my back was hurt.

02:13:02.562 --> 02:13:05.850
I just call people long enough to say, hey, I'm going to the hospital.

02:13:05.850 --> 02:13:08.596
My back's hurt. I call people before I went.

02:13:09.462 --> 02:13:13.740
Right now. Now, I know I'm younger than Mitch McConnell and I get all that and

02:13:13.740 --> 02:13:16.738
everybody's different. But there's some basic things you do.

02:13:17.670 --> 02:13:20.920
You find out somebody that you care about in the hospital, you're trying to

02:13:20.920 --> 02:13:24.769
reach out to them. If you can't talk to them, you talk to a doctor.

02:13:25.670 --> 02:13:30.435
And no doctor has come on and said, Mr. McConnell is fine.

02:13:31.346 --> 02:13:35.620
Right. But it's all about gamemanship because this stupid rule that they created,

02:13:36.125 --> 02:13:42.901
just so a Democrat can't enjoy the spoils of victory, right?

02:13:43.447 --> 02:13:45.900
Because that's one of the things they will throw at you. Well,

02:13:45.900 --> 02:13:50.442
you've got to deal with whatever you're dealing with because the Republicans are in charge, right?

02:13:51.181 --> 02:13:56.090
But when Democrats are in charge in a situation like Kentucky where the governor

02:13:56.090 --> 02:14:00.259
is a Democrat and the legislature is controlled by the Republicans,

02:14:00.898 --> 02:14:02.244
that rule doesn't apply.

02:14:03.726 --> 02:14:08.786
They do everything like North Carolina. They want to strip the governor of being

02:14:08.786 --> 02:14:11.167
able to appoint members of his own cabinet.

02:14:12.172 --> 02:14:17.046
Right. In Wisconsin, you know, they tried to do all sorts of shenanigans with

02:14:17.046 --> 02:14:18.437
the Democratic governor there.

02:14:19.437 --> 02:14:23.765
That's not gamesmanship. That's just being assholes. Right.

02:14:24.602 --> 02:14:28.517
And now there's only 100 U.S. senators. Each state gets two.

02:14:29.233 --> 02:14:35.374
So now you want to jeopardize the flow of the Senate. to play a game.

02:14:36.355 --> 02:14:41.936
Whoever Andy Beshear points is going to be gone in January if they didn't run

02:14:41.936 --> 02:14:44.995
for the position and their primaries already happened.

02:14:45.885 --> 02:14:50.066
So if that person, he or she didn't run for the position and Beshear points

02:14:50.066 --> 02:14:51.800
them, they're going to be gone in January anyway.

02:14:52.820 --> 02:14:56.031
And at the rate y'all are going, y'all not passing anything,

02:14:56.338 --> 02:14:57.544
so what would they be missing?

02:14:59.586 --> 02:15:05.956
What harm could they do? Right? Nonetheless, But what threw a monkey wrench

02:15:05.956 --> 02:15:09.132
into plans is that Lindsey Graham actually died.

02:15:09.468 --> 02:15:13.366
The senator from South Carolina, he died. Which, by the way,

02:15:13.366 --> 02:15:16.676
now, that means that there are two states in the United States,

02:15:16.676 --> 02:15:21.196
two, that have black men as senior senators.

02:15:22.129 --> 02:15:27.446
Cory Booker in New Jersey and Tim Scott in South Carolina. Two black men are

02:15:27.446 --> 02:15:29.911
now senior senators in the United States Senate.

02:15:30.687 --> 02:15:32.399
Just wanted to throw that out there. So now...

02:15:34.011 --> 02:15:40.661
Graham goes to Ukraine and, you know, he's trying to encourage Solinsky to keep

02:15:40.661 --> 02:15:44.611
doing what he's doing. He's making the case that we need to continue to fund

02:15:44.611 --> 02:15:48.147
Ukraine despite, you know, his president's reluctance.

02:15:48.973 --> 02:15:54.155
And he gets back home and basically the next day he's dead.

02:15:54.962 --> 02:15:59.601
And according to official reports that he had aortic ambulism,

02:15:59.601 --> 02:16:02.340
which is like a tear in the aortic valve.

02:16:03.150 --> 02:16:06.278
And you can go pretty quick when that happens.

02:16:07.960 --> 02:16:10.502
And the governor of South Carolina picked his sister.

02:16:12.018 --> 02:16:16.339
Finish out the term because they're in an election year.

02:16:16.868 --> 02:16:22.413
Now, in South Carolina, everybody's Republican, so governor can do that, right?

02:16:23.121 --> 02:16:27.958
But if Henry McMaster was a Democrat, even if he said, I'm going to pick Lindsey's

02:16:27.958 --> 02:16:30.878
sister, they probably would have put in some kind of mechanism like Kentucky

02:16:30.878 --> 02:16:33.669
and said, man, no, we're not going to let you do that.

02:16:34.492 --> 02:16:38.207
Or would they have lied and said Lindsey didn't die?

02:16:39.037 --> 02:16:42.482
You know, you understand what I'm saying? It's just crazy.

02:16:43.160 --> 02:16:48.118
It's just crazy. And then the other, so that's thrown them in a conundrum where

02:16:48.118 --> 02:16:53.933
now they've lost two, they've got two senators that are not there. One, we know he died.

02:16:54.502 --> 02:16:56.685
And the other one, we think he died.

02:16:57.613 --> 02:17:00.706
And we don't have any credible information, whatever.

02:17:01.244 --> 02:17:05.868
I remember it was a young guy who ran for the U.S.

02:17:05.868 --> 02:17:13.358
Senate in Mississippi, and he got in trouble because one of his campaign staffers

02:17:13.358 --> 02:17:18.796
went to the rehab clinic that Senator Cochran's wife was in.

02:17:19.769 --> 02:17:24.478
And I don't know what that, I can't remember what the motivation about that

02:17:24.478 --> 02:17:32.333
was, what was the story behind that, but, you know, they went in and took pictures of her in there.

02:17:33.235 --> 02:17:37.568
And the only reason why I bring that up is because nobody has thought to do

02:17:37.568 --> 02:17:40.448
the same thing with Mitch McConnell. If they know where he is,

02:17:40.448 --> 02:17:44.677
that nobody is enterprising enough to take that picture.

02:17:45.679 --> 02:17:52.284
I mean, people snuck in to take pictures to show that Elvis was in the coffin. Nobody.

02:17:53.349 --> 02:17:56.668
I mean, people, you know, will say, well, that's that poor behavior and all

02:17:56.668 --> 02:18:00.836
that stuff, but people do that kind of stuff if they really want to know the truth.

02:18:02.368 --> 02:18:07.738
Know. I don't know what that deal is or why people all of a sudden now have

02:18:07.738 --> 02:18:12.488
morality, but I just think it's fascinating that we can't get an update.

02:18:12.488 --> 02:18:18.368
And then Lindsey Graham actually dying, you know, has really exacerbated the

02:18:18.368 --> 02:18:22.124
lie that's being put out by the Republicans in Kentucky.

02:18:23.351 --> 02:18:28.488
So anyway, so now South Carolina has a senator, like I said,

02:18:28.488 --> 02:18:32.418
Lindsey Graham's sister, and people are talking about whether she's qualified

02:18:32.418 --> 02:18:33.685
or not, it doesn't matter.

02:18:34.432 --> 02:18:38.573
She's over 30. She's lived in the state for over five years. Okay.

02:18:39.604 --> 02:18:45.368
You know, we've had spouses and children of deceased elected officials fill

02:18:45.368 --> 02:18:47.588
their spots. It happened.

02:18:48.501 --> 02:18:54.708
So I'm not really worried about that. I mean, she's going to do whatever Republicans

02:18:54.708 --> 02:18:56.918
tell her to do anyway. It doesn't matter if she was a lawyer.

02:18:56.918 --> 02:18:58.568
It doesn't matter if she was a PhD.

02:18:59.707 --> 02:19:05.471
She, it don't matter. She's a citizen of the state. The governor picked her. Move on, right?

02:19:06.428 --> 02:19:10.272
In the essence of where we are, that's inconsequential.

02:19:10.936 --> 02:19:15.195
The only thing that would be bad is if she was like a convicted felon.

02:19:16.166 --> 02:19:20.247
Maybe you might ask some questions. And what was she convicted of?

02:19:21.080 --> 02:19:24.699
You might want to have some questions. But other than that, no.

02:19:25.542 --> 02:19:28.708
Because actually if she was a convicted felon, she wouldn't be eligible to vote.

02:19:28.708 --> 02:19:31.324
Therefore, she wouldn't be eligible to serve in the position.

02:19:34.426 --> 02:19:43.178
So who McMaster appoint doesn't matter, but this constant lying is a whole different thing.

02:19:43.178 --> 02:19:47.098
And then the other thing I wanted to touch on about this whole Lindsey Graham

02:19:47.098 --> 02:19:52.668
thing is that, you know, people are being critical about some of the Democrats

02:19:52.668 --> 02:19:54.283
saying nice things about him.

02:19:55.045 --> 02:20:00.216
I think people need to deal with death the way that they want to deal with.

02:20:00.990 --> 02:20:06.788
But if, you know, I'm in the South, so there's all sorts of idioms and sayings.

02:20:06.788 --> 02:20:11.609
And, you know, one of the things is you don't speak ill of the dead and all that. Okay.

02:20:12.380 --> 02:20:17.488
And then I remember the story of Vernon Johns. It was a guy who hadn't attended

02:20:17.488 --> 02:20:22.698
church, but he was the son of a deacon, or I think that's how the story goes.

02:20:22.698 --> 02:20:26.615
And so he demanded that he do the eulogy for the funeral.

02:20:27.222 --> 02:20:34.032
And Reverend Johns got up there and said, so-and-so lived, so-and-so died, here end of the sermon.

02:20:34.381 --> 02:20:37.738
And he walked off the podium, out of the pulpit, right?

02:20:40.369 --> 02:20:49.348
And then, you know, it was another case where these guys had been bitter rivals and political rivals.

02:20:49.348 --> 02:20:53.268
And so one of them died and the other one came to the funeral.

02:20:53.268 --> 02:20:56.678
And so one of the people noticed this guy was there and he said,

02:20:56.678 --> 02:20:59.488
hey, man, I didn't expect to see you at the funeral. He said,

02:20:59.488 --> 02:21:01.661
yeah, I just wanted to make sure the son of a bitch was dead.

02:21:02.374 --> 02:21:09.499
I'm good, you know? So people are going to deal with folks the way that they

02:21:09.877 --> 02:21:13.918
feel like dealing with them. If there's some people that have some good stories

02:21:13.918 --> 02:21:16.563
about their relationship with Lindsey Graham, fine.

02:21:17.543 --> 02:21:22.927
You know, if there's some people who hate his guts, okay, all of us are going to do that.

02:21:23.758 --> 02:21:26.440
I just don't want to be like the woman when my mom died.

02:21:28.384 --> 02:21:33.224
Like, it's going to matter because I'm going to be gone. But I just don't want

02:21:33.224 --> 02:21:40.017
that image for my child or any other family members where my mom was in a smaller,

02:21:40.503 --> 02:21:42.724
chapel and it was overflowing.

02:21:42.724 --> 02:21:46.170
You know, it was like relatives I hadn't seen, even on my dad's side,

02:21:46.526 --> 02:21:49.804
it showed up. My high school classmates, college classmates,

02:21:49.804 --> 02:21:54.344
just a lot of people I didn't expect to come to the wake showed up.

02:21:55.176 --> 02:22:01.144
So, you know, it was packed and it was lively. And then the woman that had reserved,

02:22:01.144 --> 02:22:06.966
the family had reserved the big chapel, right, that could seat like literally 500 people.

02:22:07.596 --> 02:22:11.092
That woman was laying there empty, empty room.

02:22:12.021 --> 02:22:14.904
And me and one of my cousins went in there and we just kind of sat there to

02:22:14.904 --> 02:22:19.664
pay our respects and left just so somebody came. But nobody came during the

02:22:19.664 --> 02:22:22.274
time that we were there because the viewings were at the same time.

02:22:22.274 --> 02:22:26.286
Nobody came to that big empty chapel for that woman, right?

02:22:27.330 --> 02:22:33.566
And so I don't want it to be that, and it's definitely not going to be that for Lindsey Graham.

02:22:34.059 --> 02:22:39.454
But people have the right to do what they want to do when it deals with death

02:22:39.454 --> 02:22:42.795
and how they want to remember people, how they want to acknowledge folks.

02:22:43.835 --> 02:22:48.164
And, you know, people who are critical may come across as cruel,

02:22:48.164 --> 02:22:56.198
and people that are too celebratory may come across as either being insincere or out of touch. But...

02:22:58.706 --> 02:23:03.630
Most people have been raised to be kind during that moment because somebody

02:23:03.630 --> 02:23:12.192
loved them, somebody cared about them, and so they show respect, and that's okay.

02:23:13.430 --> 02:23:17.796
When we get to a point in America, especially in politics, where we just can't,

02:23:18.414 --> 02:23:23.165
be civil to each other even in death, that's a threat to our democracy too.

02:23:23.828 --> 02:23:31.439
Because the whole concept of a democratic republic is based on this moral understanding of civility.

02:23:32.380 --> 02:23:37.045
And we can't be civil with each other even in death. Then that's a problem.

02:23:38.083 --> 02:23:43.230
And, you know, I know the president has set good examples. When Rob Reiner died

02:23:43.230 --> 02:23:45.901
and Robert Mueller died, he said awful things.

02:23:49.334 --> 02:23:54.931
Going to say awful things about him when he dies, right? So it is what it is.

02:23:55.721 --> 02:24:02.224
And I don't have a high standard for him, right? But everybody else that's relatively

02:24:02.224 --> 02:24:08.510
normal, you know, they deal with it how they want to deal with it, you know?

02:24:09.218 --> 02:24:13.153
I think I have kinder things to say about Lindsey Graham than I would Strom Thurmond.

02:24:14.185 --> 02:24:17.975
If I was from South Carolina, you know, black.

02:24:19.690 --> 02:24:25.804
I, you know, it is what it is. Some black people have probably kinder things

02:24:25.804 --> 02:24:28.434
to say about Lindsey Graham than they would about Tim Scott.

02:24:28.434 --> 02:24:34.394
It is what it is. You know, people don't get in those positions if they don't

02:24:34.394 --> 02:24:37.905
have a network, if they don't have a cadre of friends and supporters.

02:24:38.753 --> 02:24:43.440
So, you know, and then people say, well, you're not highlighting the bad stuff.

02:24:44.278 --> 02:24:48.454
Okay. How long do you want this story to be about his life? Do you want me to

02:24:48.454 --> 02:24:51.443
tell the whole story or what?

02:24:52.213 --> 02:24:58.684
You know, he was born poor. He achieved one of the ultimate political goals.

02:24:58.684 --> 02:25:03.104
He not only got to serve in the United States House, but he served in the United States Senate.

02:25:03.738 --> 02:25:05.700
And he was a candidate for president of the United States.

02:25:06.656 --> 02:25:08.903
That's normally a success story here.

02:25:09.906 --> 02:25:15.636
And, you know, now what he did when he was in office, we can have discussions about that.

02:25:16.156 --> 02:25:19.634
Because my biggest disappointment with him was.

02:25:21.766 --> 02:25:26.884
So my biggest disappointment with him was when the whole thing was going down

02:25:26.884 --> 02:25:30.654
after Mother Emanuel Church had the shooting,

02:25:31.494 --> 02:25:37.986
was that it was a push to get rid of the Confederate flag flying over the statehouse.

02:25:38.768 --> 02:25:42.154
And Nikki Haley was the governor, and Tim Scott either had just got elected

02:25:42.154 --> 02:25:45.360
senator or he was still in the House of Representatives.

02:25:46.040 --> 02:25:49.702
I think he had just got elected to the Senate or appointed or whatever the case may be.

02:25:50.300 --> 02:25:52.294
And so, you know, Lindsey Graham

02:25:52.294 --> 02:25:56.558
was senior senator. And during that whole time, he had nothing to say.

02:25:57.132 --> 02:26:00.984
You know, Nikki Haley's out there, you know, having press conferences.

02:26:00.984 --> 02:26:04.040
Tim Scott was the one who was pushing for it to come down.

02:26:04.804 --> 02:26:09.032
And Lindsey Graham said nothing. So that was a disappointing moment for me.

02:26:09.985 --> 02:26:15.644
And then after January 6th, when he basically denounced President Trump for

02:26:15.644 --> 02:26:20.961
what he did, you know, the next thing I know, he's back on the team.

02:26:21.587 --> 02:26:23.660
He said, I'm it. I'm out. I'm done.

02:26:24.445 --> 02:26:31.139
And it wasn't even two weeks later and he was out there trying to help him get folks in Georgia.

02:26:31.841 --> 02:26:38.224
He was calling before Trump called, Lindsey called to see if there's any way

02:26:38.224 --> 02:26:39.852
you could find any votes in Georgia.

02:26:40.803 --> 02:26:43.922
And Trump was the follow-up call, right?

02:26:45.139 --> 02:26:48.610
So those are my disappointments with him.

02:26:49.760 --> 02:26:53.249
He was a Republican, so we didn't see eye to eye on a lot of stuff.

02:26:54.297 --> 02:26:59.654
And then, you know, but he said nice things about Joe Biden,

02:27:00.382 --> 02:27:03.047
right? He said nice things about, but he served with Joe Biden.

02:27:05.097 --> 02:27:09.462
John McCain, that was kind of like his mentor when he came to the Senate,

02:27:10.121 --> 02:27:15.792
you know. So he had redeemable moments, a lot more than the current president.

02:27:16.835 --> 02:27:19.899
But he wasn't a friend. He wasn't an ally.

02:27:20.905 --> 02:27:26.257
You know, you live this lifestyle, and then politically, you do everything to

02:27:26.257 --> 02:27:31.443
take away the rights of the folks that live the lifestyle that you live, right?

02:27:32.420 --> 02:27:40.675
Just the hypocrisy in it. but now he's in the judgment part of his life, of his essence.

02:27:41.468 --> 02:27:44.040
And so he has to answer to God for that.

02:27:44.863 --> 02:27:51.443
But human beings have the right to deal with grief the way that they want to deal with it.

02:27:52.396 --> 02:27:55.637
So let's not be critical about people, especially on the Democratic side,

02:27:55.637 --> 02:27:57.806
critical about people. I'm asking.

02:27:58.115 --> 02:28:00.418
I know people are doing it regardless.

02:28:00.909 --> 02:28:05.166
But I'm asking that we don't jump on people,

02:28:05.811 --> 02:28:11.627
especially those folks on our side, for being human and trying to remember the

02:28:11.627 --> 02:28:18.345
good times, even with people that they vehemently disagree with or they felt were a threat.

02:28:19.241 --> 02:28:23.498
We've got bigger things to deal with. For those who are living,

02:28:24.069 --> 02:28:30.809
we've got to make sure that we have a health care system that will treat us

02:28:30.966 --> 02:28:32.991
the way that members of Congress are treated.

02:28:33.902 --> 02:28:39.231
We have to have an educational system, period, in the United States.

02:28:40.021 --> 02:28:42.466
We need to have a functioning government.

02:28:44.058 --> 02:28:49.408
That this Democratic Republic remains a peaceful society. We need to reform

02:28:49.408 --> 02:28:50.960
the criminal justice system.

02:28:52.005 --> 02:28:55.578
We need to protect voting rights. There are a lot of other things that we need

02:28:55.578 --> 02:28:59.835
to be talking about other than how somebody grieves another human being.

02:29:00.779 --> 02:29:02.838
That's no different than judging people.

02:29:05.113 --> 02:29:11.318
How they love another human being, right? I think we have gotten to a point

02:29:11.318 --> 02:29:14.989
where we have been too acceptable,

02:29:15.802 --> 02:29:23.928
I guess that's a word, or have gained this incredible tolerance to inhumanity.

02:29:24.840 --> 02:29:30.463
I think we need to remember that even people that we'll never meet,

02:29:31.216 --> 02:29:37.147
people that we'll never talk to, are connected to us in some way, shape, or form.

02:29:38.013 --> 02:29:41.158
Because when an athlete plays, whether it's in the World Cup,

02:29:41.158 --> 02:29:47.110
or the Super Bowl, or Wimbledon, or the Scottish, I mean, the British Open, whatever.

02:29:47.852 --> 02:29:51.370
Most of those athletes don't know the fans that are watching them,

02:29:52.311 --> 02:29:54.731
but there's a connection, right?

02:29:55.646 --> 02:29:58.458
They don't know the people that are there at the arena, let alone the folks

02:29:58.458 --> 02:30:02.278
that are watching them on TV. They don't know these people, but they live their

02:30:02.278 --> 02:30:05.522
lives, and the people who are watching them live their lives.

02:30:06.316 --> 02:30:13.138
And outside of that one moment where they see them perform, there's no personal

02:30:13.138 --> 02:30:17.958
connection. But there is a connection because that world of sports couldn't

02:30:17.958 --> 02:30:20.146
exist without fans, right?

02:30:20.610 --> 02:30:25.085
Same with politics. Most politicians are not going to meet all the people that vote for them.

02:30:26.149 --> 02:30:32.658
They're not, you know? But there's a connection. Everything that we do, right?

02:30:33.487 --> 02:30:38.387
When we're making the phone call, there are people that are making sure that the phone call happens.

02:30:38.945 --> 02:30:42.270
We'll never meet them. We're not going to meet the guys that repair the antenna.

02:30:43.869 --> 02:30:49.329
These people, but we're connected because if that person doesn't do their job,

02:30:49.329 --> 02:30:50.674
then I can't make my phone call.

02:30:51.697 --> 02:30:56.509
You see where I'm going with that? It's like, so we have to treat the 8 billion

02:30:56.509 --> 02:30:59.851
other folks on the planet as human beings.

02:31:00.780 --> 02:31:05.979
And on the rare chance that you encounter somebody new that you haven't met

02:31:05.979 --> 02:31:12.007
before or whatever and engage with them, then do it in a positive way.

02:31:12.895 --> 02:31:18.300
That's all I'm asking. If it's somebody that you didn't really care for and,

02:31:19.250 --> 02:31:24.988
you know, whatever, if you don't feel like acknowledging their passing, fine.

02:31:25.499 --> 02:31:28.193
If you got something nice to say about them, fine.

02:31:28.967 --> 02:31:32.114
If you can't muster a nice thing to say, okay.

02:31:33.168 --> 02:31:36.318
But you've acknowledged that they've moved on.

02:31:37.557 --> 02:31:40.425
And that's all I'm really asking. I'm just asking people to.

02:31:42.934 --> 02:31:47.804
The best to elevate yourself. I know it's hard. I am not a perfect human being.

02:31:48.539 --> 02:31:51.425
I am not the second coming by any stretch of the imagination.

02:31:51.616 --> 02:31:56.166
All I'm trying to do is just do the best I can in the remaining time I have left.

02:31:57.143 --> 02:32:03.251
There are some relationships that I have that I think will last until I leave.

02:32:04.053 --> 02:32:07.804
There's some relationships that have come and gone. It is what it is.

02:32:08.790 --> 02:32:13.054
But my job, and especially talking to you all in this podcast,

02:32:13.694 --> 02:32:18.664
is to have a connection, to let you know what's going on, let you know what's on my mind.

02:32:19.367 --> 02:32:24.164
And maybe that'll stir up thoughts in your mind and you can have conversations

02:32:24.164 --> 02:32:26.180
with other people and so on and so on.

02:32:26.958 --> 02:32:30.464
Because the whole thing we're trying to do is that we're just trying to be better.

02:32:31.225 --> 02:32:35.434
The whole concept of a more perfect union is not just confined to the walls

02:32:35.434 --> 02:32:41.352
of Capitol Hill or places of power. It is about our communities.

02:32:42.088 --> 02:32:47.570
You can't have a perfect union if you have imperfect or terrible communities.

02:32:48.441 --> 02:32:57.666
It's all connected. And it's all based on how we treat each other and value humanity.

02:32:59.101 --> 02:33:02.669
All right. That's all I got. Thank y'all for listening. Until next time.