Foresight & Firsts Featuring Dr. Adam Barsouk, Lorissa Rinehart, and Dr. Sherice Janaye Nelson

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.

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Hello, and welcome to Another Moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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So today is going to be a jam-packed show. I've got three guests,

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and you are going to enjoy these three guests.

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First guest is going to be a doctor who is going to talk to us about cancer,

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a book that he has written to try to help us deal with understanding the disease

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and how we can minimize our risk of getting it.

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And then I have two women who have written books. One has been a previous guest on the show.

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And the last time she was on, she was in the process of finishing this book we're going to discuss.

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And so now that she's finished it and it's out for publication,

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we're going to talk in detail about that. It's a biography of the first woman

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ever to serve in the United States Congress.

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And then I have another young lady who is a political scientist who has written

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a book about the Black women who have served in Congress. It was a very scholarly piece.

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And like I said, you're going to enjoy the discussions I had with all three of them.

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So stay tuned for that. As you know,

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we always try to promote this podcast in a way where we can get you to do more than just listen. We...

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We ask for your support because it's very, very important, you know,

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each and every day, and especially this year as we're getting closer to the November election,

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that you support these independent podcasters that are out there, including myself,

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that's trying to get people on to better inform you about what's going on,

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to give you as many perspectives as possible.

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And, you know, to counter the misinformation that's out there.

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Unfortunately, we've gotten to a point where, you know, you don't have the luxury I had growing up.

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When I was growing up, it was Walter Cronkite, it was David Brinkley and Chet

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Hundley, Frank Reynolds, Howard K. Smith.

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You know, those guys' job was just to tell you the news, what happened.

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And let you formulate your own opinions about it one way or the other,

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but they were going to get you the facts, right?

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And, you know, even as I got older, we had Dan Rather and Peter Jennings and Tom Brokaw.

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And, you know, that was how we got our news.

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And it wasn't a 24-hour cycle and all that stuff. You know, it was just,

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you know, you got to your house at a certain time when you got off work.

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And you turned on the news to see what happened on the planet while you were doing your job, right?

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But we've gone away from that. We've either dealing with strictly misinformation

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or skewed information. information or we want to be, you know,

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they're trying to entertain us.

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And I don't want to be entertained from the news. I want to know what's happening, right?

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And I want you to give me the facts. I don't want you to give me what the corporate

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bosses will allow you to say.

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And so it's very, very important in the short of what I'm saying that you support

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independent podcasters like us. I don't claim to be a journalist.

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I'm here to give you my opinion, but I think my opinion is valuable in this

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discussion and in the general discussion, I should say,

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of what's going on in politics as well as some of these other independent podcasters.

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So continue to listen to us, but also support us.

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If you want to support this podcast, please go to www.momenteric.com and show

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If you want to catch up on past episodes, do that. If you want to find out more

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So please, please, please support A Moment With Erik Fleming and any other independent

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podcasters that you've listened to.

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All right, now that I've done all that, it's time to kick this program off.

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And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Virginia voters approved a redistricting amendment that allows the Democratic-led

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legislature to redraw district lines.

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U.S. Labor Secretary Lori Chavez de Reimer resigned amid a misconduct investigation,

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with Deputy Keith Sonderling assuming the role of acting secretary.

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Representative Sheila Cherfelis McCormick resigned from Congress amid an ethics

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probe into her alleged misuse of federal disaster funds.

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Navy Secretary John Phelan was fired due to slow shipbuilding reforms,

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poor relationships with defense leadership, and an ongoing ethics investigation.

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A man in Shreveport, Louisiana, killed eight children in a domestic violence

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shooting before being fatally shot by police following a carjacking and vehicle pursuit.

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A Minnesota prosecutor has charged an ICE agent with felony assault for allegedly

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pointing his gun at motorists.

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Congress has passed a short-term 10-day extension of the Section 702 surveillance

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law after failing to secure a long-term reauthorization.

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Federal prosecutors have indicted the Southern Poverty Law Center for fraud,

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alleging the group's secretly funded extremist informants with donor money.

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President Trump issued an executive order requiring the FDA to expedite the

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review of Ibogaine and other psychedelic drugs for potential use in treating veterans with PTSD.

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The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that Texas may legally require public

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schools to display the Ten Commandments.

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Several activist organizations have sued the Trump administration to prevent

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the Department of Justice from accessing state voter rolls.

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Pope Leo XIV completed an 11-day apostolic journey to Algeria,

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Cameroon, Angola, and Equatorial Guinea, where he reportedly denounced war and

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inequality in his sermons.

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New figures from ICE indicate that 17 immigrants have died in custody since the start of 2026.

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And U.S.

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Representative David Scott of Georgia died at the age of 80.

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I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.

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Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for my guest, Dr. Adam Barsouk.

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Adam Barsouk, MD, is an oncology fellow at John Hopkins University and resident

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physician at the University of Pennsylvania.

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His articles about science, medicine, and policy have been featured in Forbes,

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Newsweek, Fox News, and Business Insider.

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He's the author of the new book, Outsmarting Cancer, Risk Reduction,

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and the Power of Prevention.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Dr. Adam Barsouk.

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Dr. Adam Barsouk. How are you doing, sir? I'm well, Eric. How are you?

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Such a pleasure to be here. Well, it's an honor to have you on,

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and we're going to talk about your book, Outsmarting Cancer.

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We're going to get into that and maybe a couple other things,

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but before I get started, I usually do icebreakers.

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So the first thing I want you to do is respond to this quote.

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So the more we learn, the more we realize the answer has been sitting,

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or in this case, running, swimming, or biking in front of us the whole time.

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I agree. I would say swimming, but I think we have a lot to learn,

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and there's always more to learn is what I realize every day. Yeah, okay.

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All right, so now the next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions.

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So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.

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You're you're ready now. Should I tell you? Yes, sir. Okay. Seven.

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All right. What do you consider the best way to stay informed about politics,

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current events, health, et cetera?

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Um, I would say, I would say a, a reputable sources on social media.

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You know, I think social media gets a bad rep and there's there's a lot of untrustworthy

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and incredible options out there.

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But I think if you're following new sources, you know, universities,

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Penn, Hopkins, Harvard, those sorts of things on Twitter, on Instagram,

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on Facebook, you're going to get live updates really quickly and they're going

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to be they're going to be reputable. OK.

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All right. Before we discuss your new book, Outsmarting Cancer,

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let's talk politics. Are you still a libertarian in your political ideology?

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I would not, I think that the libertarian has been twisted politically over

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the years, and I would not, no, I would not identify with what people call libertarian these days.

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I like the philosophy, and I think a lot of people agree that,

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you know, we want a country where people should be free to do whatever they

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want, as long as they're not hurting others.

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They're free to do whatever they want with their body, make whatever healthcare choices they want.

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But I think at the same time, we have to recognize when our choices affect other people.

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And unfortunately, these days in health care, especially, there's a lot of scenarios

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where people are making choices that are hurting others and hurting our health system at large.

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Okay. Do you still believe that modern politics has, quote unquote,

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killed any hope for a prosperous, a free or prosperous future?

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I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but I do get worried day to day.

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I think, unfortunately, you know, our political system is so broken.

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We've seen this time and again. We're not able to pass any meaningful reforms

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to health care, to so many other issues that are affecting day-to-day Americans.

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And so I'm very concerned that we either, unless we undergo a drastic kind of

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reform of the way we do politics in this country, things are just going to keep getting worse.

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Okay. You once wrote, yes, Ivy Leagues are private enterprises,

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and it is their right to accept whomever they choose.

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However, this does not give them the right to discriminate by race.

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Students must also have the right to know the true value of their education

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and to understand what their exorbitant tuition dollars are really going.

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Unfortunately, the schools we could once rely upon to do best by their students

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are now putting politics over prowess and race over results.

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Do you still stand by that statement?

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I would say a caveat of yes.

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I think this is an issue that is much more nuanced than just that quote would say.

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I think we're, honestly, Ivy Leagues are failing to, and a lot of our colleges

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are failing to educate people on the important life skills that we need these days.

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Right, where we're seeing now with AI, people are losing their jobs.

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More and more like Ivy League and college educated folks are losing their jobs

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because they're not getting the kind of real life vocational training that they ought to get.

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And I think, I think, you know, race and admissions is just a small,

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small issue and a small component of, of kind of the bigger problem with, with higher education.

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But I, you know, I think, I think we ought to be focusing on admitting people

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mostly on their merits, right?

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On, on how much they have to share with their fellow students,

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what their skills are, what their abilities are, as opposed to focusing on,

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You know, other factors. But once again, I don't think I think it's important

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to see this this issue with nuance.

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And as I'm sure, you know, in general and race race affects so many aspects

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of our lives, as does income inequality.

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And these are all issues that we should be addressing at their root causes and

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trying to make a more more equitable society.

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Yeah, because in the book, you when you were talking about health disparities,

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the quote that stood out was the present is the product of the past.

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Yeah and so it was like when i

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heard that you had said that and i said well you can kind

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of say the same thing about higher education but i know

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that you you made that comment god jesus i'm doing 10 years ago yeah yeah yeah

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yeah so i i understand how it's evolved so that's when i was doing my research

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i said well okay we can we can we can kind of break some stuff down this is

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good All right. Appreciate it. Yeah.

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So just real quick, Eric, I appreciate you doing your research and I want to

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acknowledge that a lot of my views have evolved over the years,

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you know, as I've interacted with people more, worked in the hospital and healthcare.

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And I think I will fully acknowledge that some of my views earlier on things

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like race and income inequality were something somewhat naive.

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And I think I've learned a lot from my patients over the years.

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And I think I've recognized how important these issues are for my patients and for folks at large.

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Amen. I understand you achieved a perfect score on the SAT.

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That is true. Yeah, yeah. So what influenced you to use that beautiful brain

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of yours to pursue a medical career?

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I think ever since I was young, really, I saw that medicine was a way to kind

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of apply learning and science to make a huge difference.

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I was first exposed when my grandparents got sick with these rare blood cancers.

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And I actually had to go with them to translate when they were going to their

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doctor's appointments.

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And so I think that was a very early experience for me.

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And it was eye-opening to see how the science I was learning in school was making

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a difference for them, for patients like them.

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And ultimately, when they passed away, that kind of inspired me to want to get

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involved first in cancer research.

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And then later, I realized what I was most passionate about was working with

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patients, translating the findings from the lab to everyday writing and to everyday

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patients in their lives.

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And that's kind of the route that has led me into medicine and now to becoming

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a cancer specialist. Okay.

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Again, the title of your book is Outsmarting Cancer. So, Doc,

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how can you outsmart something when you admit that the science is complicated

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and preventing it is a constant game of risk?

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That's an excellent question. Right. I think outsmarting is not necessarily

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curing and it's not necessarily preventing all cases of cancer.

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Right. We know, as you're saying, that cancer is incredibly complicated.

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It's an umbrella term for, you know, 50 different conditions.

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So there's we're not going to be able to prevent or cure them all.

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But what we can do is we can significantly reduce the risk.

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Right. We know now as many as half of all cancer cases around the world and

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cancer deaths are preventable.

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So if we can help half as many people get cancer and half as many people die

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of cancer, I think that's a huge accomplishment that'll save millions of lives in the long run.

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And that's what I hope to do in outsmarting cancer.

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Okay. You stated in the book that many people who belong to marginalized groups

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live in a war zone in the U.S.

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Every day, battling historic prejudices, economic inequality,

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and the inertia of racism.

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How has racism hindered cancer prevention in the Black community? in so many ways.

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I think first and foremost, you know, people don't have access to preventative

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care and to regular doctors.

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And when you're not seeing doctors regularly, you're not getting screened.

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You're not getting colonoscopies, mammograms, lung cancer screening.

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And that means that we don't catch the cancers that we ought to early.

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And people are getting sick with incurable metastatic cancer at higher rates

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in the black community than in the white community or the Asian community.

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But it goes even beyond that. Black people in this country are at higher risk

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of suffering from obesity, from diabetes, from heart disease,

00:19:01.184 --> 00:19:05.124
all these different conditions, the many of which increase your risk of cancer,

00:19:05.284 --> 00:19:06.284
increase your risk of death.

00:19:06.464 --> 00:19:09.664
And we know in the U.S., especially in southern states, unfortunately,

00:19:09.944 --> 00:19:14.004
people in the Black community live many years shorter than those in the white community.

00:19:14.004 --> 00:19:16.924
And I think all of that is related to our healthcare system,

00:19:17.084 --> 00:19:21.044
but also determinants of health, things like healthy diet, exercise,

00:19:21.304 --> 00:19:26.004
access to healthcare, all of those kind of conspire to hurt marginalized groups

00:19:26.004 --> 00:19:27.744
and particularly black people in this country.

00:19:28.848 --> 00:19:35.328
In the book, you talk about relative risk as it relates to humans actually developing cancer.

00:19:35.768 --> 00:19:41.088
According to the National Institutes of Health, 7% of African-American adults

00:19:41.088 --> 00:19:43.408
were both obese and smokers.

00:19:43.688 --> 00:19:46.748
How much risk are those individuals in?

00:19:47.248 --> 00:19:51.188
A lot of risk, unfortunately. You know, we know that smoking is now the leading

00:19:51.188 --> 00:19:53.428
cause. Smoking has been the leading cause of cancer.

00:19:53.928 --> 00:19:58.268
Obesity is now the second leading cause. So in people who are non-smokers who

00:19:58.268 --> 00:20:01.488
are obese, they're at higher risks of breast, colorectal, lung cancer.

00:20:01.588 --> 00:20:05.148
In smokers, it's even higher, astronomically higher.

00:20:05.348 --> 00:20:08.868
So I think, once again, that's another reason why many folks in the Black community

00:20:08.868 --> 00:20:13.828
are getting cancer more, are dying earlier because of preventable risk factors

00:20:13.828 --> 00:20:15.968
like smoking and obesity. Yeah.

00:20:16.528 --> 00:20:22.808
Well, Doc, the toughest thing to do to get some middle-aged elderly black man

00:20:22.808 --> 00:20:26.648
to regularly go to a doctor, even when they're not feeling well,

00:20:26.708 --> 00:20:28.208
or to change some habits.

00:20:28.748 --> 00:20:33.208
When you say to them, that's going to give you cancer, they usually respond,

00:20:33.408 --> 00:20:34.548
everything gives you cancer.

00:20:35.508 --> 00:20:38.928
Now, they might not be too off the mark with that remark, are they?

00:20:40.208 --> 00:20:43.168
I know i agree that unfortunately a lot of things we're

00:20:43.168 --> 00:20:46.048
learning now in our day-to-day lives cause cancer but i don't

00:20:46.048 --> 00:20:49.068
think i disagree that that's a reason to not try at

00:20:49.068 --> 00:20:52.528
all because we know we know the things that help the most and

00:20:52.528 --> 00:20:55.768
you know i i must say i'm also the kind of guy i don't want to go to doctors

00:20:55.768 --> 00:20:59.108
if i don't have to you know i think we all we all understand that feeling i

00:20:59.108 --> 00:21:02.748
don't want to take medicines that i don't have to so i you know i i try and

00:21:02.748 --> 00:21:06.288
counsel my patients that when i'm making a strong recommendation it's not it's

00:21:06.288 --> 00:21:10.208
not because i'm trying to you know tell you how to live your life or make you

00:21:10.208 --> 00:21:11.588
do a bunch of things you don't want to do.

00:21:11.728 --> 00:21:15.808
I only recommend things if they really are proven to help you live longer.

00:21:15.968 --> 00:21:19.348
And that's my job as your doctor to try and help you live longer. Yeah.

00:21:20.208 --> 00:21:22.508
Yeah. You know, it's.

00:21:23.798 --> 00:21:32.078
My, my dad is a tough, I think he's gotten better now, but for a stretch,

00:21:32.158 --> 00:21:34.838
it was just kind of like, yeah, I think you might need to go see somebody.

00:21:34.998 --> 00:21:37.458
Oh, I'm fine. I think you need to go check this out.

00:21:37.958 --> 00:21:41.098
It sounds like you sound like you have a problem. No, no. So,

00:21:41.218 --> 00:21:47.558
you know, I, I, all of us have been through that moment and I don't think it's a black thing.

00:21:47.598 --> 00:21:52.358
I think it's a man thing where anything else, but you know, I,

00:21:52.478 --> 00:21:57.638
I, I just said, I I got to ask the doctor a question since he was so pro in

00:21:57.638 --> 00:21:59.558
trying to break everything down.

00:21:59.958 --> 00:22:05.938
The National Institutes of Health cut $3.8 billion in cancer research in 2025.

00:22:06.598 --> 00:22:10.398
When asked about the Medicaid cuts in the Big Beautiful Bill,

00:22:10.618 --> 00:22:15.638
you said, in the long run, these Medicaid cuts will actually cost taxpayers

00:22:15.638 --> 00:22:19.118
many more, many fold more than they save.

00:22:19.118 --> 00:22:24.378
Because people who lose insurance will forego cancer screenings like colonoscopies

00:22:24.378 --> 00:22:29.178
and mammograms and ultimately get diagnosed with metastatic cancer,

00:22:29.198 --> 00:22:32.458
which costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.

00:22:32.698 --> 00:22:38.518
So my question to you is, why doesn't government get it when it comes to cancer prevention?

00:22:39.750 --> 00:22:44.410
Man, I wish I knew. I think the truth is a lot of our politicians are short-sighted.

00:22:44.610 --> 00:22:48.890
I think they're looking for short-term wins, you know, when someone like Trump

00:22:48.890 --> 00:22:54.110
or whomever else can come and say, oh, we saved, what, $20 billion cutting all

00:22:54.110 --> 00:22:55.550
this research and cutting Medicaid.

00:22:55.950 --> 00:22:58.710
But they don't think about the long-term picture. You know, they don't think

00:22:58.710 --> 00:23:02.670
about what's going to happen after they're gone, which is that by cutting people's

00:23:02.670 --> 00:23:06.350
access to things like colonoscopies, mammograms, preventative medicines,

00:23:06.890 --> 00:23:08.330
People are going to fall ill more.

00:23:08.530 --> 00:23:11.110
They're going to end up getting cancer earlier and more aggressively.

00:23:11.350 --> 00:23:15.290
They're going to end up in the hospital more, and that's actually going to cost taxpayers more money.

00:23:15.430 --> 00:23:19.570
It costs much more money to treat someone in the hospital, where it costs something

00:23:19.570 --> 00:23:25.130
like $10,000 a day to be in the hospital, compared to giving them a $100 pill

00:23:25.130 --> 00:23:26.430
that keeps them out of the hospital.

00:23:26.970 --> 00:23:30.510
So I think our politicians are very short-sighted.

00:23:30.590 --> 00:23:34.270
They're only concerned for themselves and for getting reelected and profiting

00:23:34.270 --> 00:23:38.670
off of their position. and unfortunately they're not looking out for their constituents

00:23:38.670 --> 00:23:42.510
and for the health of our society as they're supposed to be. Okay.

00:23:43.882 --> 00:23:47.482
What do you think will get them to do that, to get out of that short-sightedness

00:23:47.482 --> 00:23:53.122
in your— I think, I mean, I think truly it's educating people.

00:23:53.222 --> 00:23:56.502
I think people need to start holding their politicians accountable, right?

00:23:56.582 --> 00:24:01.502
It's, at the end of the day, public health should not be a Democrat or a Republican

00:24:01.502 --> 00:24:03.762
issue, right? We all get cancer.

00:24:03.942 --> 00:24:08.342
We all are at risk of this increasing rate of cancer around the country.

00:24:08.942 --> 00:24:12.702
So we should all be asking of our politicians, regardless what party you are,

00:24:12.902 --> 00:24:16.482
white, black, Asian, or whatnot, we should all be demanding that our politicians

00:24:16.482 --> 00:24:20.642
prioritize investment in our health, in cancer research, in doctors,

00:24:20.902 --> 00:24:24.462
in nurses, and access to medicines, because that affects all of us.

00:24:24.542 --> 00:24:28.582
And it's, you know, all you can do, all that any of us can do is vote in the

00:24:28.582 --> 00:24:33.102
primaries, vote in the general election, go online and make our voices heard.

00:24:33.442 --> 00:24:37.522
Because the only way to really get to our politicians is to make them worry

00:24:37.522 --> 00:24:40.922
about getting reelected. Because truly, unfortunately, that's all they care about.

00:24:41.842 --> 00:24:50.662
Yeah, Joe Biden referred to cancer research as the next moonshot. Do you agree with that?

00:24:51.542 --> 00:24:57.622
I do. I think it's something that if we put enough resources and effort into, like the U.S.

00:24:58.162 --> 00:25:02.302
Had done with the moon landing in the 60s, we may not cure cancer,

00:25:02.442 --> 00:25:04.162
but we could significantly improve

00:25:04.162 --> 00:25:07.442
survival, we could significantly reduce how many people get cancer.

00:25:07.682 --> 00:25:12.342
And it's such a shame that, you know, since Biden left, that the current administration

00:25:12.342 --> 00:25:14.722
has gone backwards on so many of those things.

00:25:14.982 --> 00:25:17.802
But I'm hopeful, I'm still hopeful for the future.

00:25:18.322 --> 00:25:22.862
People stay educated, they read up, whether it's my book or other places online,

00:25:23.122 --> 00:25:26.462
they read about the importance of cancer research and cancer prevention.

00:25:26.582 --> 00:25:30.722
And I'm hoping that that translates into future politicians,

00:25:30.962 --> 00:25:32.882
future generations prioritizing these things.

00:25:33.842 --> 00:25:38.502
Okay. So which group is the biggest hindrance to cancer prevention?

00:25:38.822 --> 00:25:46.922
Government officials, medical professionals, big pharma, insurance companies, or U.S. citizens?

00:25:48.249 --> 00:25:53.329
Oh, man, that's a tough question. I would say politicians are definitely number

00:25:53.329 --> 00:25:58.289
one, because especially recently, politicians have cut so much funding from

00:25:58.289 --> 00:26:00.229
cancer research, from cancer prevention.

00:26:00.509 --> 00:26:04.129
They have cut people's ability to access Medicaid, Obamacare,

00:26:04.249 --> 00:26:05.589
health insurance, right?

00:26:05.709 --> 00:26:10.949
So without a doubt, politics and certain politicians in particular have made

00:26:10.949 --> 00:26:13.349
drastic cuts that are going to hurt millions of lives.

00:26:13.489 --> 00:26:18.869
But I think that the truth is that There is a growing crisis of misinformation

00:26:18.869 --> 00:26:22.649
and mistrust among people in the U.S. at large.

00:26:22.869 --> 00:26:27.289
People have all this stuff that they're listening to and reading about online that's simply not true.

00:26:27.609 --> 00:26:32.209
And then a lot of folks, because of that, refuse care that could save their

00:26:32.209 --> 00:26:36.329
life, refuse medicines, refuse vaccines, believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories.

00:26:36.529 --> 00:26:39.229
And so I think that's something that we have to root out as well.

00:26:39.229 --> 00:26:44.129
We need to address kind of the root causes of all this misinformation and try

00:26:44.129 --> 00:26:47.409
and get people real, real-life statistics and real-life information.

00:26:47.409 --> 00:26:50.949
Because without that, unfortunately, people are going to keep making choices

00:26:50.949 --> 00:26:52.009
that are hurting themselves.

00:26:52.649 --> 00:26:59.049
What are some ideas that you have to try to navigate through that misinformation?

00:27:00.717 --> 00:27:04.817
Well, I think what I always tell my patients is I get why you wouldn't trust,

00:27:04.937 --> 00:27:06.597
you know, doctors, health care systems.

00:27:07.057 --> 00:27:10.197
There's plenty of reasons, you know, and plenty of historical injustices.

00:27:10.417 --> 00:27:14.177
But if you're so skeptical, why are you trusting all these random podcasters

00:27:14.177 --> 00:27:18.237
online who are just trying to sell you supplements and other things?

00:27:18.517 --> 00:27:21.357
You know, the truth is I want people to do their own research.

00:27:21.357 --> 00:27:25.277
I want people to go online and read about the medicines that are being recommended,

00:27:25.857 --> 00:27:29.017
read about the vaccines that are being recommended. but I want people to use

00:27:29.017 --> 00:27:31.157
reputable resources, right?

00:27:31.277 --> 00:27:36.017
Go to Hopkins or the Mayo Clinic or Harvard, you know, go to a big name that

00:27:36.017 --> 00:27:40.057
you recognize and read what they have to say, not what some Joe Schmo wrote

00:27:40.057 --> 00:27:45.177
on his blog yesterday because that's the only way these days to get reputable information.

00:27:45.697 --> 00:27:47.497
Well, you brought up supplements.

00:27:48.057 --> 00:27:55.277
Are there some supplements that we should not be taking when it comes to trying to prevent cancer?

00:27:56.097 --> 00:28:00.277
I think there are no supplements that are proven to prevent cancer.

00:28:00.657 --> 00:28:05.197
Most of them probably don't make much of a difference. There are some that actually make things worse.

00:28:05.457 --> 00:28:10.217
So for instance, vitamin E, E as in Edward, it's actually been shown to increase

00:28:10.217 --> 00:28:11.917
the risk of lung cancer in smokers.

00:28:12.057 --> 00:28:14.377
So I would definitely stay away from that.

00:28:14.537 --> 00:28:18.617
And honestly, any supplement or vitamin you take, it's important to talk it

00:28:18.617 --> 00:28:22.297
over with your doctor because you don't realize all the ways that these medicines,

00:28:22.457 --> 00:28:24.857
that these supplements interact with the meds that you're taking.

00:28:25.277 --> 00:28:29.077
And I've seen a lot of people get really sick. I've seen people die from supplements

00:28:29.077 --> 00:28:33.457
they were taking that the doctors didn't know about. So it's so important to communicate that.

00:28:34.397 --> 00:28:41.377
So let's just say, I'm not one of those people, but just to say there's some people that, you know,

00:28:41.557 --> 00:28:45.237
take a multivitamin and then they turn around and drink like,

00:28:45.357 --> 00:28:50.657
say, like a AG1 or whatever and, you know, throw in some colostrum.

00:28:50.937 --> 00:28:53.817
And you know what I'm saying? It's like, is it...

00:28:55.369 --> 00:29:03.449
Does doing that cause more harm than good because the body is not,

00:29:03.749 --> 00:29:10.509
because you said that part of one of the risks for cancer is the body not processing right.

00:29:11.469 --> 00:29:17.749
So it's like if you take too many supplements, does that increase your risk?

00:29:18.909 --> 00:29:23.789
There is no specific data right now about the number of supplements and your cancer risk.

00:29:23.789 --> 00:29:27.529
I will say the more supplements you take, the more you are at risk of having

00:29:27.529 --> 00:29:29.929
all these different interactions that can be really dangerous,

00:29:30.549 --> 00:29:34.469
the more money you're spending and truly wasting instead of things that you

00:29:34.469 --> 00:29:36.409
could be spending it on that would help you much more.

00:29:36.769 --> 00:29:39.569
So if you took all the money, and these supplements can be really expensive.

00:29:39.569 --> 00:29:43.309
If you took that money you spent on colostrum and whatever else and just used

00:29:43.309 --> 00:29:44.929
it to buy healthy foods, right?

00:29:44.989 --> 00:29:49.009
To eat more vegetables, fruits, whole grains, I truly think that's going to help.

00:29:49.109 --> 00:29:53.029
That's going to help you prevent cancer much more than any of these supplements would. Yeah.

00:29:53.789 --> 00:30:01.069
So since you mentioned about eating healthy, go ahead and list 11 lifestyle

00:30:01.069 --> 00:30:04.969
recommendations you suggest to minimize cancer risk.

00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:09.799
Yeah. So I mean, first and foremost, remain smoking. So people who are smoking,

00:30:10.019 --> 00:30:13.479
you know, try and minimize it, try and quit best you can, easier said than done.

00:30:14.159 --> 00:30:17.279
Number two is obesity. And that's where, you know, diet comes in,

00:30:17.479 --> 00:30:20.679
exercise comes in, particularly processed foods, right?

00:30:20.839 --> 00:30:23.479
Right now, that's most of the American diet, all these chips,

00:30:23.679 --> 00:30:26.259
cookies, everything else that's full of preservatives and sugar.

00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:31.499
So trying to minimize intake of those, decreasing your alcohol consumption.

00:30:33.619 --> 00:30:36.459
Decreasing sun exposure so using sunscreen when

00:30:36.459 --> 00:30:39.579
you go outside decreasing air and water pollution using

00:30:39.579 --> 00:30:42.759
filters at home for your water for your air wearing

00:30:42.759 --> 00:30:46.359
masks if the air quality is bad and wearing masks if you work somewhere where

00:30:46.359 --> 00:30:50.539
you're exposed to a lot of chemicals like cleaning products and pesticides and

00:30:50.539 --> 00:30:54.759
so forth let's see what else there's also people should get their basements

00:30:54.759 --> 00:30:59.799
tested for radon that's a gas that's in a lot of people's basements that's radioactive

00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:01.779
and can increase your risk of lung cancer.

00:31:02.199 --> 00:31:05.659
And there's truly, I mean, the truth is that it's a 400 page book.

00:31:05.779 --> 00:31:09.079
There's so many other things that each of us can do, but those are,

00:31:09.159 --> 00:31:10.939
those are probably the highest yield ones.

00:31:10.999 --> 00:31:14.179
And so if you take away nothing else, it's really diet, exercise,

00:31:14.899 --> 00:31:19.379
smoking, and alcohol, particularly processed foods, avoiding those that can

00:31:19.379 --> 00:31:20.299
make the biggest difference.

00:31:20.999 --> 00:31:24.999
Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was testing you see if you could do it without looking

00:31:24.999 --> 00:31:27.339
at your book to see if you remembered all 11,

00:31:28.659 --> 00:31:35.719
But the ones that kind of stood out, like, for example, if you're at a gas station

00:31:35.719 --> 00:31:42.339
and you're pumping gas, would it be better for you to wear a mask while you're pumping gas?

00:31:44.270 --> 00:31:48.570
I think, I mean, the truth is the biggest issue is not so much with the gas

00:31:48.570 --> 00:31:51.550
that you're pumping as the exhaust from the cars around you.

00:31:51.950 --> 00:31:56.210
But yeah, I would say if you're the kind of person who drives to work every

00:31:56.210 --> 00:31:59.590
day for a few minutes and you're pumping gas once a week or so,

00:31:59.670 --> 00:32:01.070
it's probably not going to make a huge difference.

00:32:01.190 --> 00:32:05.230
But if you're a truck driver who's always on the road, who's always pumping

00:32:05.230 --> 00:32:08.770
gas and breathing in the fumes, that's probably where it makes a bigger difference.

00:32:08.770 --> 00:32:12.330
And I think you can help yourself by wearing a mask when you're exposed to those

00:32:12.330 --> 00:32:17.750
fumes from other cars and particularly from diesel engines, those produce the most dangerous fumes.

00:32:18.670 --> 00:32:25.970
And what about the radon? Because I grew up in Chicago, and so radon was a big

00:32:25.970 --> 00:32:28.370
deal as far as basements.

00:32:28.550 --> 00:32:35.450
But I lived in Jackson, Mississippi for like 34 years, and they didn't really

00:32:35.450 --> 00:32:39.510
talk about radon because in Jackson, very few homes have basements.

00:32:40.650 --> 00:32:43.590
And now i'm here in atlanta and i don't hear

00:32:43.590 --> 00:32:46.570
people talking about radon but in

00:32:46.570 --> 00:32:49.670
chicago that was a real thing it was like people

00:32:49.670 --> 00:32:55.110
had to get detectors for their basements and all that so is it is it like regions

00:32:55.110 --> 00:33:00.450
of the country is radon something that you don't have to have a basement for

00:33:00.450 --> 00:33:05.130
it to develop kind of explain that a little bit exactly yeah it's it's a gas

00:33:05.130 --> 00:33:06.670
that naturally occurs in the soil.

00:33:07.130 --> 00:33:10.890
I think it is definitely certain regions have more of it than others.

00:33:11.370 --> 00:33:17.010
About 25% of where people live has dangerous radon around the U.S.

00:33:17.150 --> 00:33:19.370
So it's more than you'd think, right? One in four people.

00:33:19.550 --> 00:33:23.130
And you can easily find out, you know, if you take your zip code or your city

00:33:23.130 --> 00:33:27.750
and Google it online, right, you can see whether your area is an area that has radon.

00:33:28.030 --> 00:33:30.490
And if it does, you know, even if you don't have a basement,

00:33:30.530 --> 00:33:35.450
if you live on the first floor, or you live in, you know, close to the ground,

00:33:35.510 --> 00:33:37.370
you are definitely at risk of exposure.

00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:45.280
I forgot to ask you at the beginning, what was your motivation for writing the book?

00:33:45.520 --> 00:33:53.700
So what was your motivation for writing the book, and what do you want people to get from this book?

00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:59.660
I think as I started to share earlier, you know, I lost my grandparents to these rare blood cancers.

00:34:00.080 --> 00:34:04.360
They motivated me to want to become a cancer researcher and a doctor.

00:34:05.620 --> 00:34:11.220
But more so it motivated me to look into and do research in cancer prevention

00:34:11.220 --> 00:34:13.260
and the more I've learned about this,

00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:17.500
the more I've realized how many things we're neglecting in our day-to-day lives

00:34:17.500 --> 00:34:21.980
to try and reduce our cancer risk and having these conversations with,

00:34:22.620 --> 00:34:26.920
patients in the hospital, in the clinic, day in and day out has really motivated

00:34:26.920 --> 00:34:30.180
me to want to get that message out there and that's why I've written the book

00:34:30.180 --> 00:34:34.220
and that's what I hope people will take away that There are so many small changes

00:34:34.220 --> 00:34:37.780
that each of us can make in our day-to-day lives that can make a significant

00:34:37.780 --> 00:34:39.680
impact on our cancer risk.

00:34:40.200 --> 00:34:43.780
All right. So I've been asking all of my guests this.

00:34:44.220 --> 00:34:48.580
Well, I've been asking all of my guests to finish this sentence.

00:34:49.140 --> 00:34:50.780
I have hope because...

00:34:52.418 --> 00:34:57.998
I have hope because science is powerful and every day we're learning more answers

00:34:57.998 --> 00:35:01.198
and we're making huge strides in treating and preventing cancer.

00:35:01.718 --> 00:35:06.518
And I think that this is an issue that we can overcome if we all put our minds

00:35:06.518 --> 00:35:07.838
and our hearts together.

00:35:08.558 --> 00:35:14.658
Okay. All right. So, Dr. Adam Barsouk, how can people get this book?

00:35:14.758 --> 00:35:16.198
How can people reach out to you?

00:35:16.998 --> 00:35:20.638
Yeah the book is available on amazon

00:35:20.638 --> 00:35:23.838
on barnes and nobles on hopkins press just google outsmarting

00:35:23.838 --> 00:35:29.918
cancer there's also my website adam Barsouk a-d-a-m-b-a-r-s-o-u-k.com

00:35:29.918 --> 00:35:34.438
where you can find links to all of my articles links to the book and more writing

00:35:34.438 --> 00:35:39.738
and i'm always happy to chat with folks via social media email what have you

00:35:39.738 --> 00:35:45.198
all the contact information is there all right well doc i I greatly appreciate

00:35:45.198 --> 00:35:49.478
you not only writing the book, but coming on the podcast.

00:35:50.358 --> 00:35:54.718
I know that you're a very, very smart, dedicated health professional.

00:35:55.318 --> 00:36:02.258
And I hope that more and more people, especially in your generation and even

00:36:02.258 --> 00:36:06.678
younger, pursue that career because we need it.

00:36:06.878 --> 00:36:13.958
So I thank you for your service in that. And also, too, one of the things I

00:36:13.958 --> 00:36:19.558
do is that I extend an invitation to anybody that's been on.

00:36:19.758 --> 00:36:24.198
It's an open invitation. So anytime you think there's something that you want

00:36:24.198 --> 00:36:28.678
to discuss and you need a platform to do it, just let me know and we'll make that happen.

00:36:29.158 --> 00:36:33.078
I really appreciate it, Erik. It's been a pleasure. And I appreciate the tough questions.

00:36:33.558 --> 00:36:37.498
Get me on my feet. Well, I knew you could handle it. I knew you could handle it.

00:36:38.238 --> 00:36:41.818
All right. Thank you. All right, guys. We're going to catch y'all on the other side.

00:37:01.456 --> 00:37:07.316
All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Lorissa Rinehart.

00:37:07.856 --> 00:37:13.056
Lorissa Rinehart is an engaging author and public speaker whose work explores

00:37:13.056 --> 00:37:17.376
the powerful intersections of women's history, politics, peace, and war.

00:37:17.596 --> 00:37:21.916
Her debut book, First to the Front, The Untold Story of Dickey Chappelle.

00:37:22.756 --> 00:37:26.956
Trailblazing female war correspondent, garnered rave reviews from The Wall Street

00:37:26.956 --> 00:37:30.896
Journal, The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Publishers Weekly, and more.

00:37:31.456 --> 00:37:35.016
She has written and released her second book, Winning the Earthquake,

00:37:35.276 --> 00:37:39.296
How Jeanette Rankin Defied All Odds to Become America's First Congresswoman.

00:37:39.596 --> 00:37:43.716
Through her weekly newsletter and podcast, The Female Body Politic,

00:37:44.176 --> 00:37:50.656
Lorissa offers insight analysis of contemporary events, drawing on 250 years

00:37:50.656 --> 00:37:53.476
of women's engagement in American politics.

00:37:53.476 --> 00:37:59.016
A dynamic TEDx speaker, Lorissa has delivered thought-provoking talks at prestigious

00:37:59.016 --> 00:38:04.696
venues, such as the National Press Club, Friends of the National World War II Memorial,

00:38:05.196 --> 00:38:09.456
the Women's National Press Club, and the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation.

00:38:10.176 --> 00:38:14.676
Her expertise has been featured on prominent podcasts and radio shows,

00:38:14.836 --> 00:38:19.516
including Tell Me Everything, Cold War Conversations, Writers Talking,

00:38:19.836 --> 00:38:21.956
and Her Story on the Rocks.

00:38:21.956 --> 00:38:26.236
And this is her second appearance on A Moment with Erik Fleming.

00:38:26.536 --> 00:38:31.036
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:38:31.036 --> 00:38:34.396
on this podcast, Lorissa Rinehart.

00:38:46.323 --> 00:38:50.543
Hey, Lorissa Rinehart, how are you doing? I am hanging in there.

00:38:50.783 --> 00:38:54.283
I am working hard and trying to stay joyful.

00:38:54.923 --> 00:38:58.163
Well, I see you working hard. Your sub stack's blowing up. That's really,

00:38:58.263 --> 00:39:01.803
really good. And it's really good to have you back on, you know.

00:39:02.783 --> 00:39:06.963
It's not often I get to have a fan as a guest.

00:39:08.363 --> 00:39:13.423
But, yeah, it's cool. And this is something we were anticipating,

00:39:13.903 --> 00:39:16.563
right? Because you've written this book called Winning the Earthquake,

00:39:16.683 --> 00:39:19.623
where you were working on it the last time you were on.

00:39:19.783 --> 00:39:24.423
So now it's finished and it's out. So we're going to talk about the book and

00:39:24.423 --> 00:39:26.283
especially Congresswoman Rankin.

00:39:26.763 --> 00:39:32.563
Yeah, I think it's timely. But let's do it like we normally do it.

00:39:32.703 --> 00:39:37.243
So I'm going to throw a quote at you, and then I want you to respond to the quote.

00:39:37.743 --> 00:39:41.483
Peace is not merely the absence of war, but the presence of justice,

00:39:41.483 --> 00:39:44.923
of law, of order. and short of government.

00:39:46.432 --> 00:39:51.952
I think that is absolutely true, and we are starting to see that every day in

00:39:51.952 --> 00:39:59.532
our lives with the Trump administration waging war against not only Iran,

00:39:59.792 --> 00:40:05.732
but also the American people through his regressive economic policies,

00:40:06.012 --> 00:40:11.332
through ICE, through constant monitoring of us, right?

00:40:11.432 --> 00:40:15.192
We're seeing that there is an absence of peace in our lives.

00:40:15.192 --> 00:40:21.932
And when you have the effects of Doge undercutting of multiple important government

00:40:21.932 --> 00:40:25.072
agencies and how that's affecting people's lives,

00:40:25.212 --> 00:40:30.532
the absence of government in their lives, that's sowing chaos and a great deal

00:40:30.532 --> 00:40:34.852
of hardship and pain that's entirely unnecessary.

00:40:34.852 --> 00:40:44.692
So, yeah, government can be a place where peace is created, not only in the

00:40:44.692 --> 00:40:49.012
world, but also in our individual lives and in our homes and at our dinner tables.

00:40:49.832 --> 00:40:52.512
Yeah, yeah. You know, that was...

00:40:53.391 --> 00:40:56.771
You know, when I was elected, I don't think I used the term peace.

00:40:56.771 --> 00:41:00.371
I think it was more or less like balance was kind of my mindset.

00:41:00.731 --> 00:41:05.251
But, you know, in the true sense of the word, peace is balance.

00:41:05.991 --> 00:41:10.391
And if we can just get to that, that'd be great. I don't know.

00:41:10.491 --> 00:41:12.451
I was reading something.

00:41:13.531 --> 00:41:16.451
I go down rabbit holes with Wikipedia.

00:41:17.871 --> 00:41:22.091
Yes, that's what it's for. And I ended up, I ended up on Plato and the Republic

00:41:22.091 --> 00:41:23.931
and stoicism and all that stuff.

00:41:24.231 --> 00:41:29.511
And I was just like thinking, you know, those guys really, they really had some

00:41:29.511 --> 00:41:32.651
hope for human beings back in the day.

00:41:33.291 --> 00:41:36.351
They knew that we were, we were flawed, but they still said,

00:41:36.571 --> 00:41:39.391
you know, if we could kind of argue and reason this out, this,

00:41:39.511 --> 00:41:43.371
this might happen. And I said, boy, if you talk about people turning their graves,

00:41:43.491 --> 00:41:46.351
they probably done did just gymnastic flips and all that stuff.

00:41:48.351 --> 00:41:50.831
Anyway, I want to do something different with you. Normally,

00:41:50.831 --> 00:41:54.191
this would be the part for 20 questions, but since you've been on before,

00:41:54.491 --> 00:41:58.451
I'm not going to put you through that again. But I do want to introduce this

00:41:58.451 --> 00:42:01.611
thing called Women's Suffrage Trivia.

00:42:02.091 --> 00:42:05.451
Okay. That didn't come out as smooth as I wanted it to be, but that's what we're going to do.

00:42:05.991 --> 00:42:08.351
So I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. Okay.

00:42:09.190 --> 00:42:13.150
Which one of the original 13 colonies allowed women to vote?

00:42:13.870 --> 00:42:20.610
Oh, gosh, you're putting me on the spot. I'm going to go with,

00:42:20.610 --> 00:42:25.370
I think it was one of the Carolinas. It was not an expected one, right?

00:42:25.890 --> 00:42:31.630
Well, none of them were expected for me, but no, it was a little further north

00:42:31.630 --> 00:42:34.570
than the Carolinas. Oh, okay.

00:42:37.010 --> 00:42:42.230
Was it Massachusetts? No, no, but you're getting close. It's New Jersey. All right.

00:42:42.730 --> 00:42:48.310
New Jersey. Okay. I didn't know that. The New Jersey Constitution of 1776 enfranchised

00:42:48.310 --> 00:42:52.530
all adult inhabitants who owned a specific amount of property.

00:42:52.810 --> 00:42:59.350
Laws enacted in 1790 and 1797 referred to voters as he or she.

00:42:59.690 --> 00:43:05.830
And women regularly voted. A law passed in 1807, however, excluding women from

00:43:05.830 --> 00:43:08.710
voting in that state. So for 10 years, women had a good.

00:43:09.410 --> 00:43:15.330
At least. Well, yeah, well, white property owning women. That's right. Okay.

00:43:15.850 --> 00:43:18.930
That's right. That's right. Please keep me straight there, Lorissa. All right.

00:43:18.970 --> 00:43:24.990
So now the next question, who was the first woman to vote on anything in the

00:43:24.990 --> 00:43:27.330
American colonies? Oh, no,

00:43:27.816 --> 00:43:31.676
Erik, I don't know. You're catching me out. Who is it?

00:43:31.976 --> 00:43:37.376
Well, you said Massachusetts, so I'll give you partial credit on the second question.

00:43:38.296 --> 00:43:44.076
So it was a lady named Lydia Taft. She lived from 1712 to 1778.

00:43:44.636 --> 00:43:50.176
So she was a wealthy widow who was allowed to vote in town meetings,

00:43:50.396 --> 00:43:51.596
which is not exactly true.

00:43:51.696 --> 00:43:57.016
It was one meeting in a town called Uxbridge, Massachusetts in 1756.

00:43:57.336 --> 00:43:58.756
So here was the story.

00:44:00.516 --> 00:44:08.136
The British Empire was demanding of the colonies to raise taxes,

00:44:08.536 --> 00:44:10.576
property taxes on their cities.

00:44:11.856 --> 00:44:15.396
And so then the colonies were going out and asking.

00:44:15.716 --> 00:44:21.976
And so Uxbridge, when it came down to this, Mrs. Taft's husband had passed away.

00:44:22.536 --> 00:44:26.516
Prior to the vote. And so since he owned most of the property,

00:44:26.816 --> 00:44:31.016
they only felt that it would be fair if that Mrs.

00:44:31.196 --> 00:44:33.856
Taft would cast the vote that he would have cast.

00:44:34.336 --> 00:44:38.116
And because she voted, they went ahead and paid the tax.

00:44:38.676 --> 00:44:43.016
So she was the difference in, because it was pretty, oh, interesting.

00:44:43.616 --> 00:44:47.656
She was, she was the difference in deciding to go ahead and pay the tax.

00:44:48.536 --> 00:44:52.996
But after that, until 1776, it was a wrap.

00:44:53.296 --> 00:44:57.356
It was in New Jersey. So she was, but she was the only woman.

00:44:57.596 --> 00:45:00.216
All right. So, you know, it...

00:45:01.106 --> 00:45:04.766
It's so obscure, but it was like when I was doing research and stuff,

00:45:04.926 --> 00:45:09.826
it just came across and I was like, wow, okay. Another rabbit hole I went down.

00:45:10.666 --> 00:45:14.866
And so I thought that was fascinating, though, that the people, especially with Mrs.

00:45:15.006 --> 00:45:18.446
Taft, it was like going, well, I can just only imagine the question is,

00:45:18.606 --> 00:45:21.886
you know, the conversation is like, oh, she's got a vote.

00:45:22.006 --> 00:45:25.026
I mean, she owns all the property in Taft.

00:45:25.726 --> 00:45:30.026
Right. We can't put a property tax on her and she's, you know.

00:45:30.526 --> 00:45:34.646
Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I thought that was pretty cool. And then I just kind

00:45:34.646 --> 00:45:40.106
of when I did it, I kind of made the connection with with Congresswoman Rankin

00:45:40.106 --> 00:45:43.586
because her dad was pretty much that same person.

00:45:44.646 --> 00:45:49.706
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the last time we talked, you were in the final stages of

00:45:49.706 --> 00:45:53.706
this book, Winning the Earthquake, How Jeanette Rankin Defied All Odds to Become

00:45:53.706 --> 00:45:55.206
America's First Congresswoman.

00:45:56.056 --> 00:45:59.716
Ms. Rankin was elected to Congress in 1914, representing Montana.

00:46:00.116 --> 00:46:03.696
However, the 19th Amendment, the amendment that granted women's,

00:46:03.816 --> 00:46:07.356
that guaranteed women's suffrage was not ratified until 1920.

00:46:07.756 --> 00:46:11.996
So here's my two-part question. How did Jeanette Rankin have the stature to

00:46:11.996 --> 00:46:16.236
be a serious candidate for Congress, and how was she able to get elected before

00:46:16.236 --> 00:46:19.276
women nationally had a guaranteed right to vote?

00:46:19.696 --> 00:46:23.316
Well, another thing that a lot of people don't know about women's suffrage is

00:46:23.316 --> 00:46:27.536
that individual states could actually enfranchise women before the 19th Amendment.

00:46:27.816 --> 00:46:29.616
And so that's what happened in Montana.

00:46:30.076 --> 00:46:33.836
So actually, women were given the right to vote in Montana in 1914,

00:46:33.836 --> 00:46:36.176
and then Jeanette was elected in 1916.

00:46:36.456 --> 00:46:41.716
So Jeanette was instrumental in getting women access to the ballot.

00:46:41.716 --> 00:46:47.256
And she really built what I call a constellation of power in her suffrage campaign

00:46:47.256 --> 00:46:52.776
for the state of Montana, where she would identify precinct captains all across the state, right?

00:46:52.856 --> 00:46:57.036
It's a very difficult state to traverse even now. You can imagine what it was like in 1914.

00:46:57.896 --> 00:47:01.956
And so she couldn't be everywhere all at once. So she would say to these precinct

00:47:01.956 --> 00:47:07.376
captains, I trust you to organize your community in the way that you believe is best.

00:47:07.556 --> 00:47:12.356
If you have any questions, I'm here, but you do what you think you should do.

00:47:12.516 --> 00:47:18.356
And so in this way, she rapidly built a grassroots movement that could react

00:47:18.356 --> 00:47:21.776
and turn out right at the drop of a hat.

00:47:22.765 --> 00:47:28.325
And so from 1911, when the campaign really began, to 1914, when they were enfranchised,

00:47:29.185 --> 00:47:36.165
this grassroots campaign both flipped both houses of the state legislature from

00:47:36.165 --> 00:47:40.045
adamantly against to almost unanimously for women's suffrage,

00:47:40.245 --> 00:47:45.085
and then also got the male-only electorate to enfranchise them.

00:47:45.225 --> 00:47:50.085
So it was really an incredible force of political organizing.

00:47:50.085 --> 00:47:55.525
So Jeanette became well known in the state, not only because,

00:47:55.725 --> 00:47:58.185
as you mentioned, her father was an immigrant,

00:47:58.405 --> 00:48:03.225
sort of broke immigrant turned real estate mogul, but also because she had done

00:48:03.225 --> 00:48:06.685
all this organizing and she'd become very well known throughout the state and

00:48:06.685 --> 00:48:13.045
also understood as a progressive leader that really stood for and by the people.

00:48:13.980 --> 00:48:19.360
And so when she went on to campaign for her seat in Congress,

00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:21.460
she had this going for her.

00:48:21.580 --> 00:48:23.720
But also, Erik, you know, you're

00:48:23.720 --> 00:48:26.620
in politics, so I'm going to get in the weeds with you a little bit.

00:48:26.780 --> 00:48:32.780
But what she also had going for her was that Montana was what is called or was called an open state.

00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:36.100
We would now call it a multiple member congressional district,

00:48:36.380 --> 00:48:40.660
which meant that everyone in the state could vote for both of their congressional

00:48:40.660 --> 00:48:44.460
representatives. and they did so through ranked choice voting.

00:48:44.700 --> 00:48:48.700
So rather than having to create wedge issues and attack her opponents,

00:48:49.200 --> 00:48:52.280
Jeanette could go around the state and say, vote for your local man.

00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:55.220
It was a very crowded field and there were all men besides her.

00:48:55.340 --> 00:48:58.780
So vote for your local man and vote for Jeanette Rankin.

00:48:58.900 --> 00:49:03.780
So it was never a zero-sum game like we experience in these heavily gerrymandered,

00:49:03.900 --> 00:49:08.280
you know, Republican sort of districts where voters are cracked and packed and

00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:12.480
politicians get to pick their voters rather than voters getting to pick their leaders.

00:49:12.980 --> 00:49:17.580
And so she ran a positive campaign and people felt more comfortable voting for

00:49:17.580 --> 00:49:21.980
someone that they might not otherwise if it was a choice between one or the other.

00:49:22.100 --> 00:49:24.640
It wasn't a choice between one or the other. It was one and.

00:49:25.560 --> 00:49:29.540
So because she had enfranchised, right, 50% of the population,

00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:34.340
because she was well-known and because she had a more equal playing field when

00:49:34.340 --> 00:49:39.000
it came to the electoral system, She was able to translate all of that into

00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:43.020
a historic win as the first woman elected to Congress,

00:49:43.160 --> 00:49:49.700
the first woman elected actually to a federally held position in a self-determining democracy in the world.

00:49:50.709 --> 00:49:55.849
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and that's, that was a pretty good school strategy.

00:49:55.849 --> 00:50:00.429
You know, it's like, you can vote for your guy, but then vote for me too.

00:50:00.869 --> 00:50:03.509
You know, I'm not going to talk about, I'm not going to trash anybody.

00:50:04.249 --> 00:50:09.069
And so when you say open state, I just said open-minded because it was like,

00:50:09.149 --> 00:50:12.929
you know, to even, to even feel comfortable to make that argument,

00:50:13.269 --> 00:50:14.689
it sounded pretty positive.

00:50:15.589 --> 00:50:17.089
Where does the title of the book

00:50:17.089 --> 00:50:21.069
come from? Well, that goes back to your original question about peace.

00:50:21.449 --> 00:50:28.029
So Jeanette Rankin would always say you can no more win an earthquake than you can win a war.

00:50:28.929 --> 00:50:32.029
So the title is really about how you win an earthquake.

00:50:32.269 --> 00:50:38.649
And winning the earthquake is about pursuing peace through never declaring war in the first place.

00:50:39.209 --> 00:50:43.009
And, you know, in addition to being a suffragist, a democratic reformer,

00:50:43.129 --> 00:50:49.289
Jeanette was one of America's foremost pacifists and still occupies that place in history today.

00:50:49.289 --> 00:50:52.309
And she spent a good period of

00:50:52.309 --> 00:50:59.189
her life lobbying for peace and disarmament and making the case to the American

00:50:59.189 --> 00:51:07.949
people of why peace and democracy are inextricably intertwined and why war is

00:51:07.949 --> 00:51:10.309
truly the enemy of democracy.

00:51:10.309 --> 00:51:16.869
And, you know, I think we can look now at what's going on currently with the

00:51:16.869 --> 00:51:23.649
escalation of the conflict in Iran and the ways that it's being used to obfuscate

00:51:23.649 --> 00:51:27.189
the constant attack on our democratic rights at home.

00:51:27.349 --> 00:51:30.449
That's not a coincidence. That is possible.

00:51:30.958 --> 00:51:38.218
Completely planned and a common, I would say, tactic of authoritarian leaders

00:51:38.218 --> 00:51:44.658
to use war as a reason to curtail democratic rights. Yeah.

00:51:45.798 --> 00:51:53.338
Two things, her rural but affluent upbringing and her family's role in the battles

00:51:53.338 --> 00:51:57.518
against Native Americans seemed to shape Ms. Rankin's politics.

00:51:57.698 --> 00:51:59.978
Just kind of talk about that a little bit.

00:52:00.538 --> 00:52:06.478
Yeah, absolutely. So her father was actually a pacifist as well.

00:52:07.098 --> 00:52:11.738
He didn't allow guns on his ranch at all.

00:52:12.318 --> 00:52:18.398
And he had witnessed and then Jeanette had witnessed the genocide being waged

00:52:18.398 --> 00:52:22.318
against the Native and Indigenous peoples of that region.

00:52:22.738 --> 00:52:35.278
And Jeanette witnessed, saw, three Salish people, men, hung in the middle of Missoula as a child.

00:52:35.658 --> 00:52:41.798
And her father would also tell her about, really, the massacre of the Pierce Nez

00:52:41.798 --> 00:52:43.918
people that he had witnessed.

00:52:44.158 --> 00:52:53.478
And these two things combined really influenced her pacifist commitment to pacifism.

00:52:53.758 --> 00:52:57.638
And she understood that there is no place for violence in democracy and that

00:52:57.638 --> 00:53:00.418
there is no reason for this sort of violence against anyone,

00:53:00.758 --> 00:53:02.338
particularly the indigenous peoples.

00:53:03.618 --> 00:53:07.978
So that was where her pacifism came from.

00:53:08.398 --> 00:53:21.238
But then her sense of democracy and the power of democracy really came about because of her unique,

00:53:22.244 --> 00:53:26.944
place in American landscape and her time in history.

00:53:27.304 --> 00:53:31.504
So as you mentioned, she was born on a ranch in rural Missoula,

00:53:31.504 --> 00:53:34.864
and it was a hard scrapple time, right?

00:53:35.024 --> 00:53:38.704
If people didn't work together, you're not going to survive the winter.

00:53:38.924 --> 00:53:42.904
And as they say in Montana, there's two seasons, there's August and there's winter.

00:53:43.304 --> 00:53:47.284
So you have to really work together as a community to just make it through.

00:53:47.524 --> 00:53:52.164
I mean, And we all can visualize sort of the community coming together for the barn raising.

00:53:52.404 --> 00:53:56.104
But it's also this idea of, you know, you have pork and I have beans.

00:53:56.224 --> 00:53:58.204
And if we share, we can have a complete meal.

00:53:58.384 --> 00:54:02.444
So you have this sense of, right, grassroots democracy in action.

00:54:02.764 --> 00:54:06.984
The other part of that upbringing was at that place and at that time,

00:54:07.224 --> 00:54:10.464
there was a greater sense of gender equality than, you know,

00:54:10.644 --> 00:54:17.164
on the East Coast in Boston or New York, sort of these famously gilded age, you know,

00:54:17.784 --> 00:54:21.444
hierarchies, gender hierarchies, where women wore bustles and didn't work as

00:54:21.444 --> 00:54:25.844
long as you were rich and certainly didn't have the vote and didn't have a voice or opinion.

00:54:27.424 --> 00:54:33.044
That wasn't the case in Montana, right? Imagine you're a homesteader and you give birth.

00:54:33.704 --> 00:54:39.184
Your husband has to help you deliver that baby and take care of that baby and

00:54:39.184 --> 00:54:40.724
take care of you as you recover.

00:54:41.544 --> 00:54:48.044
At the same time, when it's time to bring in the harvest, women had to be in the field as well.

00:54:48.444 --> 00:54:52.104
So no one's labor could be entirely erased.

00:54:52.384 --> 00:54:56.944
And Jeanette really grew up with the sense that she was equal to anyone and any man,

00:54:57.164 --> 00:55:05.104
and based her politics on that belief accordingly, and dedicated herself to

00:55:05.104 --> 00:55:07.764
the enfranchisement of women for many,

00:55:07.964 --> 00:55:15.124
many years and then continued that logic to the belief that all people deserved

00:55:15.124 --> 00:55:18.884
a voice in government, an equal voice in government. Yeah.

00:55:19.404 --> 00:55:22.424
What did the phrase go, go, go mean to Ms. Rankin?

00:55:23.324 --> 00:55:27.264
Know, some people are born in little towns that they don't want to stay in.

00:55:27.364 --> 00:55:31.364
And it was very difficult to leave Missoula for a number of reasons.

00:55:31.584 --> 00:55:36.744
One, there just wasn't a lot of opportunity for women to go to a big city,

00:55:36.904 --> 00:55:42.264
have a job and change their lives at the time, even if you were affluent as she was.

00:55:42.484 --> 00:55:47.224
The other part of it was Jeanette was, you know, the oldest of six children,

00:55:47.224 --> 00:55:49.104
five of whom survived to adulthood.

00:55:49.824 --> 00:55:56.544
And her mother, Olive, was pregnant 14 times in 20 years, gave birth six times.

00:55:56.604 --> 00:56:02.184
And by the time her youngest was born, Edna, she really took a step back and

00:56:02.184 --> 00:56:05.564
Jeanette had to step forward into that role of mothering, which happened to

00:56:05.564 --> 00:56:10.744
a lot of oldest daughters in that period and still does to a certain extent, right?

00:56:10.864 --> 00:56:13.524
The sandwich generation of women who have to take care of their,

00:56:13.544 --> 00:56:17.244
you know, children, their siblings, and their parents all at the same time.

00:56:18.144 --> 00:56:26.744
And so it wasn't until Jeanette was really in her mid to late 20s that she had the opportunity to go.

00:56:26.884 --> 00:56:30.224
And she had always wanted to go. She had an adventurous spirit.

00:56:30.564 --> 00:56:35.084
She was brilliant. And she was, quite frankly, a born leader.

00:56:35.384 --> 00:56:42.584
And so she wrote in her journal, just go, go, go. It doesn't matter where you go, just go.

00:56:42.744 --> 00:56:48.984
And she really lived by that ethos until she found a place that she was meant to be. Yeah.

00:56:49.524 --> 00:56:54.204
So one of the challenges I found when I lived in Mississippi was that you.

00:56:55.328 --> 00:56:58.728
Very few people in Mississippi left the area they were born and raised in.

00:56:59.528 --> 00:57:03.688
One minister even told me in the state capitol that at age 83,

00:57:03.688 --> 00:57:07.268
this was the first time ever seeing or being in the building.

00:57:07.628 --> 00:57:13.608
Wow. And I always argue that the lack of exposure was paralyzing to people's development.

00:57:14.288 --> 00:57:19.008
And as I read Ms. Rankin's story, she's proof positive of my argument.

00:57:19.188 --> 00:57:23.688
Her crisscrossing of the country had a very profound impact on her.

00:57:23.688 --> 00:57:27.388
Was that what you were trying to convey as well? Absolutely.

00:57:29.388 --> 00:57:34.288
She traveled so extensively throughout her life, and particularly in her young

00:57:34.288 --> 00:57:39.848
life or, you know, in her late 20s, both in Montana and across the United States.

00:57:40.008 --> 00:57:44.428
And she had a, you know, real capacity to listen.

00:57:44.968 --> 00:57:49.448
And I think that's one of the most important qualities in a leader that we can find, right? Right.

00:57:49.568 --> 00:57:54.228
Because we're not asking them in a democracy to espouse their own beliefs.

00:57:54.228 --> 00:58:00.888
We're actually asking them to collect our beliefs, meld them together and make them into a platform.

00:58:01.148 --> 00:58:03.868
And that's really what Jeanette did. And by traveling the country,

00:58:03.988 --> 00:58:07.848
by traveling Montana extensively and listening to the people,

00:58:08.108 --> 00:58:12.708
she became the embodiment of a democratic leader and really developed herself

00:58:12.708 --> 00:58:14.348
in terms of understanding.

00:58:14.348 --> 00:58:21.448
And developing this sense of deep empathy that's also required of our leaders

00:58:21.448 --> 00:58:24.948
and of all of us. You know, when we talked earlier about.

00:58:26.260 --> 00:58:34.660
You know, Socrates and Plato and this idea that we as humans can grow and evolve

00:58:34.660 --> 00:58:36.160
and become our better selves.

00:58:36.340 --> 00:58:39.020
That was really something that Jeanette embodied.

00:58:39.280 --> 00:58:42.580
She made mistakes. We all make mistakes. And she made gross mistakes.

00:58:42.800 --> 00:58:44.880
And that's just the way it goes.

00:58:45.420 --> 00:58:49.960
But she listened when she was told that she was incorrect.

00:58:50.180 --> 00:58:53.380
She considered it and she grew from that.

00:58:53.600 --> 00:58:57.900
And that's something we really have to demand of our leaders,

00:58:57.920 --> 00:59:01.300
of ourselves, and of each other, and I think in this time particularly.

00:59:01.980 --> 00:59:08.940
Especially in this time. Yeah, yeah. All right, let's fast forward to the last lines of chapter 25.

00:59:09.880 --> 00:59:13.360
Jeanette Rankin called the clerk. Jeanette stood.

00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:19.440
No was all she said. That was her lone dissenting vote against the declaration

00:59:19.440 --> 00:59:21.420
of war towards the empire Japan.

00:59:21.740 --> 00:59:25.100
What was life like for her immediately afterwards?

00:59:26.040 --> 00:59:31.940
It was lonely and hard and filled with rancor.

00:59:32.500 --> 00:59:41.680
She had spent 20 years lobbying for and organizing for disarmament and peace.

00:59:41.900 --> 00:59:45.240
She saw in the advent of the Great War,

00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:51.920
World War I, and in the aftermath, the birth of the military-industrial complex

00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:57.320
well before President Eisenhower made his famous speech and understood that

00:59:57.320 --> 00:59:58.960
it was antithetical to democracy.

00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:03.920
And she did everything she could, practically laying her body down on the tracks

01:00:03.920 --> 01:00:08.220
to try to get the world to change its course. Yeah.

01:00:09.525 --> 01:00:16.025
She understood, right, that we were going through a profound shift in the way

01:00:16.025 --> 01:00:21.065
that countries waged war through technological development, but also through

01:00:21.065 --> 01:00:22.785
who built the machines of war.

01:00:23.085 --> 01:00:31.065
There was a large investment of public funds and private corporations building the machinery of war.

01:00:31.225 --> 01:00:35.705
And she understood that when a corporation makes an investment,

01:00:35.745 --> 01:00:38.685
they demand a return on that investment.

01:00:39.525 --> 01:00:43.745
When that investment is the machinery of war, the return on that investment is war itself.

01:00:44.165 --> 01:00:47.445
She would say, if you prepare for war, you will get war. If you prepare for

01:00:47.445 --> 01:00:48.665
peace, you will get peace.

01:00:49.145 --> 01:00:54.845
And so her vote, right, against declaration of war with the Empire of Japan

01:00:54.845 --> 01:01:01.605
was not necessarily about changing history or changing anyone's mind, even at the time.

01:01:01.605 --> 01:01:09.305
But to hang a lantern on a path that we could have taken in 1919 or 1929 or maybe even 1933.

01:01:10.025 --> 01:01:13.485
But that was no longer available in 1941.

01:01:14.505 --> 01:01:20.885
But if we look at where we are now, with the massive influx of public funds

01:01:20.885 --> 01:01:29.125
in the development of AI war machinery, the buildup of conflict across the world,

01:01:30.125 --> 01:01:35.505
we can very much see that we are standing at the same crossroads that Jeanette stood on in 1919,

01:01:36.125 --> 01:01:41.705
and we can now choose to prepare for peace, or we can continue to allow the

01:01:41.705 --> 01:01:48.785
oligarchs who profit from war to prepare for war, and the outcome is inevitable.

01:01:49.345 --> 01:01:54.705
So I hope we can find that lantern that Jeanette hung on that crossroads and

01:01:54.705 --> 01:01:57.285
choose the path of peace at this time.

01:01:58.236 --> 01:02:03.576
Yeah, I love the Terminator movies. And I remember when somebody,

01:02:03.836 --> 01:02:11.036
I think Ed Norton played the scientist or something, and he was either Sarah Connor or John.

01:02:11.196 --> 01:02:15.516
One of them asked him, how did the leadership allow this to happen?

01:02:16.096 --> 01:02:22.116
And so now living in this time with the leadership we have is like, oh, Mr.

01:02:22.256 --> 01:02:25.076
Connor, this is how this happened. This is how it went down.

01:02:25.336 --> 01:02:31.796
These were the people that. so I always think about that but I really one of

01:02:31.796 --> 01:02:34.196
the things I liked is how you.

01:02:35.336 --> 01:02:40.876
Conveyed the dread that she was feeling as the vote was coming right because

01:02:40.876 --> 01:02:44.276
there's somebody that has been in a position where it's like okay something

01:02:44.276 --> 01:02:48.396
controversial is happening and you kind of like am I going to be the only person

01:02:48.396 --> 01:02:50.796
to vote against this thing or you know whatever,

01:02:51.956 --> 01:02:55.676
I was putting myself in her place And it was just like,

01:02:55.836 --> 01:03:01.376
poor thing You know, she was As strong a woman as she was It was like,

01:03:01.456 --> 01:03:05.496
that was a moment of vulnerability It's like, I've run out of time It was kind

01:03:05.496 --> 01:03:10.856
of like that mindset And I really love the way that you framed that Her last

01:03:10.856 --> 01:03:16.736
fray in public life was Jeanette Rankin Brigade Talk about that a little bit So,

01:03:17.176 --> 01:03:22.736
after her vote against war with Japan And Jeanette really took a step back from

01:03:22.736 --> 01:03:27.316
public life and spent a lot of time traveling,

01:03:27.896 --> 01:03:33.796
devoting herself to the nonviolent movement in India and building community

01:03:33.796 --> 01:03:37.876
in her adopted home of Georgia outside of Athens.

01:03:38.176 --> 01:03:43.976
But in 1965, when the U.S. committed its first ground troops to Vietnam.

01:03:45.739 --> 01:03:49.679
She couldn't stay silent anymore. Also, she was really old. So she was like,

01:03:49.739 --> 01:03:51.039
I don't have anything to lose. Whatever.

01:03:51.259 --> 01:03:55.819
Let's just go for this. So she placed a small ad in four Montana newspapers

01:03:55.819 --> 01:04:02.359
that said, women, call your congressman and make sure that they do not support this war.

01:04:02.579 --> 01:04:06.239
Well, this got picked up by the national press and became, right,

01:04:06.379 --> 01:04:09.159
this sort of viral story, as we say now.

01:04:09.879 --> 01:04:14.939
And the burgeoning peace movement started looking back at Jeanette and And,

01:04:14.939 --> 01:04:21.599
you know, admiring and appreciating her decades of service to pacifism.

01:04:21.779 --> 01:04:30.619
And she really became, again, this figure of early feminism and dedication to pacifism.

01:04:30.859 --> 01:04:36.019
And so she, along with several other women, organized, as you said,

01:04:36.119 --> 01:04:41.619
the Jeanette Rankin Brigade, which was one of the first anti-war marches on Washington.

01:04:41.619 --> 01:04:47.619
It was the largest all-female anti-war march at that time.

01:04:48.579 --> 01:04:52.659
And it was about 5,000 women standing arm in arm.

01:04:52.879 --> 01:04:56.959
You know, she marched with Coretta Scott King, which was such an amazing movement.

01:04:56.959 --> 01:05:01.919
And they demanded not only the end to the war, but also the end to all of the

01:05:01.919 --> 01:05:06.899
conditions that allow governments to wage war on people to begin with.

01:05:06.899 --> 01:05:16.799
That's racism, poverty, inequity, and, you know, the investment in the buildup of war machinery.

01:05:17.179 --> 01:05:24.799
So it was this really incredible, I think, bookend to her life.

01:05:25.039 --> 01:05:30.499
And it really did make a difference. Right.

01:05:30.906 --> 01:05:36.466
Lot of ways. And one of them was actually Jeanette being a alum of Congress

01:05:36.466 --> 01:05:41.226
was able to go into Congress and meet with the speaker at the time who was Mike Mansfield, I believe.

01:05:41.626 --> 01:05:45.346
But the rest of the Jeanette Rankin Brigade had to stay outside on the Capitol

01:05:45.346 --> 01:05:48.526
steps. And they refused to leave when the Capitol Police came.

01:05:49.106 --> 01:05:51.966
And they were escorted off and several of them were arrested.

01:05:52.306 --> 01:05:57.246
They took their case to the Supreme Court and won because they believe that

01:05:57.246 --> 01:06:03.606
we have a right to peacefully protest on the steps of Congress, and they won.

01:06:03.746 --> 01:06:08.566
And that's why we are able to peaceably protest on Capitol Hill now.

01:06:08.766 --> 01:06:14.946
So it has long-lasting effects in our democracy and our capacity to advocate for peace.

01:06:15.346 --> 01:06:21.586
Yeah. And, you know, the domino effect was that, you know, Coretta Sky King

01:06:21.586 --> 01:06:23.886
really was the influence for Dr.

01:06:24.046 --> 01:06:28.666
King to publicly come out and use his platform against the war.

01:06:29.006 --> 01:06:32.806
And, I mean, it cost him his life, I think, and a lot of other people think,

01:06:32.946 --> 01:06:41.606
but, you know, he felt that, how could he be a man of God and not say something about it?

01:06:41.926 --> 01:06:43.966
And so, you know, just...

01:06:44.490 --> 01:06:48.730
So, you know, everybody, there's a whole generation that's going to hear the

01:06:48.730 --> 01:06:51.290
initials RFK and look at what's going on now.

01:06:51.470 --> 01:06:55.970
But, you know, I'm old enough to remember the RFK that was really about something.

01:06:56.930 --> 01:07:04.010
And he said that, you know, he just wanted to throw that stone in the lake and create the ripples.

01:07:05.270 --> 01:07:10.330
And Ms. Rankin's life pretty much, you know, she was definitely a stone thrower.

01:07:10.610 --> 01:07:12.870
And she created a lot of ripples that.

01:07:13.490 --> 01:07:17.490
Definitely. We're benefiting from it. So if Congresswoman Rankin was around

01:07:17.490 --> 01:07:22.010
today, what do you think she would be doing in this political climate?

01:07:22.570 --> 01:07:24.790
I think she'd be organizing. I think

01:07:24.790 --> 01:07:28.850
she'd be organizing. I think she'd be running for office or in office.

01:07:28.930 --> 01:07:32.330
Honestly, she is one of the great political geniuses of American history.

01:07:32.790 --> 01:07:37.470
I wouldn't put it past her if she was president. She had a capacity to talk

01:07:37.470 --> 01:07:41.910
to all kinds of folks, listen to all kinds of folks, synthesize what they're saying.

01:07:42.070 --> 01:07:46.010
She also had incredible dedication to the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights.

01:07:47.370 --> 01:07:52.070
But she would, above all, be doing the difficult thing.

01:07:53.870 --> 01:07:56.990
There are a few others in our history with the courage of her convictions.

01:07:56.990 --> 01:08:06.030
And she knew that we had to stand up for this democracy regardless of the cost,

01:08:06.550 --> 01:08:12.030
the personal cost, because it is precious and it is fragile and it is frankly

01:08:12.030 --> 01:08:17.530
miraculous and it is worth all of our time and effort to preserve, protect, and grow it.

01:08:18.010 --> 01:08:21.910
Who do you think embodies the spirit of Ms. Rankin in today's politics?

01:08:23.281 --> 01:08:29.601
You know, I often get asked this question, and my answer is the folks who come

01:08:29.601 --> 01:08:30.781
out to the No Kings protests.

01:08:31.261 --> 01:08:40.881
It's, you know, the women who are organizing, you know, drives for Mephapristone

01:08:40.881 --> 01:08:44.801
in the South, who are helping women get abortion access.

01:08:44.801 --> 01:08:49.101
Yes, it's not, you know, yes, AOC, Jasmine Crockett,

01:08:49.581 --> 01:08:55.781
Governor Spanberger, many other women are doing amazing work,

01:08:55.781 --> 01:09:03.601
but it's really the people on the ground doing the grassroots organizing who embody her spirit,

01:09:03.841 --> 01:09:05.721
her ethos and her dedication, right?

01:09:05.881 --> 01:09:10.521
Because leaders can only do so much. Democracy is the power of the people.

01:09:10.701 --> 01:09:13.701
And that's what she dedicated her life to was the power of the people.

01:09:14.810 --> 01:09:18.430
How did she inspire you? Oh, my gosh.

01:09:18.710 --> 01:09:24.330
You know, as a biographer, I try to stay objective, but she really inspired me.

01:09:24.650 --> 01:09:29.910
I've always been politically active ever since I was, you know, pretty much a child.

01:09:30.650 --> 01:09:43.650
But she inspired me to not only act right in my conscience, but to act with bravery and fortitude.

01:09:43.650 --> 01:09:52.110
And to not cower, right, at these bullies that are trying to take away our democracy,

01:09:52.390 --> 01:09:56.390
trying to take away our right to the ballot, our right to have a functioning

01:09:56.390 --> 01:09:59.170
government, and our right to freedom and equality.

01:09:59.590 --> 01:10:02.570
We don't have time to be afraid.

01:10:02.570 --> 01:10:09.750
And I look at so many of these CEOs who are just bending the knee because they're

01:10:09.750 --> 01:10:16.010
afraid that their bottom line will be And I cannot understand their complicity

01:10:16.010 --> 01:10:20.590
in this true attack on American democracy,

01:10:20.590 --> 01:10:24.850
which has enabled them to be so wealthy in the first place. It's unbreakable.

01:10:25.130 --> 01:10:32.690
So I'm trying to act with as much courage and conviction as I possibly can every day.

01:10:33.610 --> 01:10:38.770
What do you want readers of the book to take away from it? I want them to take

01:10:38.770 --> 01:10:42.890
away that, you know, the power is in their hands.

01:10:43.130 --> 01:10:45.750
The power is theirs alone.

01:10:46.090 --> 01:10:49.490
We are told every day that.

01:10:50.216 --> 01:10:56.656
The government, by, you know, corporate media, by bad faith actors,

01:10:56.656 --> 01:11:00.736
that we do not have the capacity to change the course of history.

01:11:00.996 --> 01:11:03.796
And this book shows that we do.

01:11:04.216 --> 01:11:07.916
Jeanette Rankin shows that we do. And we can come together when we can organize,

01:11:07.916 --> 01:11:13.956
when we can find common cause and devote ourselves to the better angels of America.

01:11:13.956 --> 01:11:19.576
There is nothing that can stop us. And it is, you know, this book really is

01:11:19.576 --> 01:11:27.876
a call to action, and I hope folks who read it are inspired and galvanized.

01:11:29.061 --> 01:11:32.721
All right, so I'm doing something a little different this year.

01:11:33.001 --> 01:11:38.321
I'm closing out the interviews, I guess, for lack of a better word, this challenge.

01:11:39.061 --> 01:11:42.681
Finish this sentence. I have hope because.

01:11:44.321 --> 01:11:48.841
I have hope because of you, because of your listeners,

01:11:49.341 --> 01:11:58.001
because of all the people who are coming out and running for office and marching

01:11:58.001 --> 01:12:04.921
in the streets and just talking to one another and recognizing that it doesn't have to be this way.

01:12:05.481 --> 01:12:11.021
I would say, I truly believe that we are more galvanized and actually more united

01:12:11.021 --> 01:12:13.941
than we have been in so long.

01:12:14.401 --> 01:12:18.421
It seems like the opposite, but I actually think that we are.

01:12:18.741 --> 01:12:21.341
And I have a great deal of hope.

01:12:21.701 --> 01:12:26.381
I would also just say, I have to caveat that, and I said this to you when we were just chatting.

01:12:28.361 --> 01:12:33.081
These midterms and the next president election is not the end, it's the beginning.

01:12:33.361 --> 01:12:37.941
We have to hold our elected officials' feet to the fire to make those reforms

01:12:37.941 --> 01:12:43.061
that are necessary for the people actually and finally to have a voice in this

01:12:43.061 --> 01:12:46.141
government, to actually and finally have equality.

01:12:47.001 --> 01:12:53.461
And if we cannot do that this time around, That's my real fear.

01:12:54.421 --> 01:13:00.201
Yeah, yeah. So, Larissa, how can people get this book? How can people reach

01:13:00.201 --> 01:13:01.461
out to you? All that stuff.

01:13:02.081 --> 01:13:06.061
So the book is for sale anywhere books are sold, bookshop.org,

01:13:06.361 --> 01:13:12.921
probably your local indie store, Barnes & Noble, and other booksellers that shall not be named.

01:13:13.441 --> 01:13:18.201
And I am on Substack at the Female Body Politic.

01:13:18.341 --> 01:13:23.041
Please subscribe. I'm exploring 250 years of women's participation in American

01:13:23.041 --> 01:13:28.581
democracy and how that we can read today's headlines through this feminist lens.

01:13:28.781 --> 01:13:32.281
And you can check out my website at LarissaReinhart.com.

01:13:33.364 --> 01:13:40.264
Larissa, as always, it's good to have you on. I just admire your enthusiasm

01:13:40.264 --> 01:13:44.824
about how we change this thing.

01:13:45.344 --> 01:13:50.724
And, you know, you said some nice things about me. I can throw that right back at you.

01:13:50.724 --> 01:13:58.304
I think it's very important for you and others to continue to raise the banner

01:13:58.304 --> 01:14:06.404
and continue to blare out this clarion call and to do it in a way which highlights

01:14:06.404 --> 01:14:09.004
our strengths and our skill set.

01:14:09.004 --> 01:14:12.904
And because you're somebody that has been dedicated to the history of women

01:14:12.904 --> 01:14:21.084
in politics and really women in American society, I think female body politic is a vital,

01:14:21.284 --> 01:14:25.224
vital weapon for us in this fight. Thank you so much. Democracy.

01:14:25.564 --> 01:14:29.024
So I appreciate you and look forward.

01:14:29.284 --> 01:14:32.904
You already know the rule, so I don't have to restate it to you,

01:14:32.984 --> 01:14:34.584
but I look forward for the next time.

01:14:35.822 --> 01:14:39.322
In my mind, I was thinking, you know, this Lydia Taft woman,

01:14:39.522 --> 01:14:45.362
maybe we should do like a little short film or come up with like some kind of

01:14:45.362 --> 01:14:49.802
fictionalized version about what led up to that moment where she had to vote on something.

01:14:49.962 --> 01:14:53.822
I was just playing in my mind, like, you know, like what's Netflix got that

01:14:53.822 --> 01:14:57.302
Bridgerton show and just how people were dressed up back then.

01:14:57.482 --> 01:15:00.322
I could, yeah, I could see like a little short film where it's like,

01:15:00.442 --> 01:15:02.882
you know, the Uxbridge voter.

01:15:03.082 --> 01:15:04.582
So I don't know anything, But

01:15:04.582 --> 01:15:09.222
we'll, what do they say, bounce it off the walls and see what comes up.

01:15:09.362 --> 01:15:14.442
But again, thank you so much for doing this and much continued success on the book.

01:15:14.602 --> 01:15:19.142
Please, people, go read this book. It's very, very inspiring and very,

01:15:19.282 --> 01:15:26.482
very eye-opening as far as to see how this important figure in American history became that person.

01:15:26.722 --> 01:15:30.542
So thank you again for doing this. Thank you so much for having me.

01:15:31.102 --> 01:15:34.722
All right, guys, and we're going to catch y'all on the other side. All right.

01:15:54.646 --> 01:15:58.626
It is time for my next guest, Dr. Sherice Janaye Nelson.

01:15:59.046 --> 01:16:05.006
Dr. Sherice Janaye Nelson is a speaker, author, researcher, and has a decade

01:16:05.006 --> 01:16:06.746
of higher education experience.

01:16:07.106 --> 01:16:11.666
She has taught at the University of California, Berkeley, and other premier

01:16:11.666 --> 01:16:16.046
institutions in the San Francisco Bay Area and in Los Angeles, California.

01:16:16.686 --> 01:16:22.406
She was the inaugural director for the Jewel Lamar Prestige Public Policy Polling

01:16:22.406 --> 01:16:27.826
and Research Center, which performs mixed-methods research that tell the stories

01:16:27.826 --> 01:16:30.526
of Blacks with data at Southern University.

01:16:30.986 --> 01:16:36.226
She is a proud alumna of Howard University and as a political analyst,

01:16:36.366 --> 01:16:41.806
provides commentary for the Howard Fisher Show on WHUR and SiriusXM.

01:16:42.146 --> 01:16:46.966
There, she received a doctorate of philosophy in political science at 27 years

01:16:46.966 --> 01:16:51.066
old, specializing in Black politics and international relations.

01:16:51.266 --> 01:16:56.606
These specializations have defined her as a Black diaspora scholar who focuses

01:16:56.606 --> 01:17:02.986
on the political, social, and economic effects of chattel slavery on present-day democracies.

01:17:03.826 --> 01:17:08.566
She is the originator of the term insulated Blackness, which speaks to African

01:17:08.566 --> 01:17:13.846
American separation from Black political identity due to infrequent experiences

01:17:13.846 --> 01:17:16.566
of racial discrimination. Dr.

01:17:16.726 --> 01:17:22.706
Nelson is the recent author of Visibly Invisible, Black Women of the Congressional Black Caucus.

01:17:22.966 --> 01:17:29.546
This work discusses the erasure of black women in the push for democracy legislatively.

01:17:29.966 --> 01:17:36.646
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast, Dr.

01:17:36.826 --> 01:17:39.106
Sherice Janaye Nelson.

01:17:52.405 --> 01:17:57.245
Dr. Sherice Janaye Nelson. How are you doing, ma'am? You doing good? I cannot complain.

01:17:58.165 --> 01:18:01.525
Neither can I. If you can't, I ain't got no reason to complain either.

01:18:02.245 --> 01:18:07.045
I'm really glad that you're here. We're going to talk about your book,

01:18:07.205 --> 01:18:14.325
which is called Visibly Invisible, Black Women of the Congressional Black Caucus.

01:18:15.285 --> 01:18:18.705
And I'm going to pick your brain a little bit, too, about some other stuff.

01:18:18.705 --> 01:18:24.265
But what I'd like to do to start the interview off is I do a couple of icebreakers.

01:18:24.665 --> 01:18:29.765
So the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to.

01:18:29.945 --> 01:18:34.405
And the quote is, black women belong everywhere decisions are made.

01:18:35.849 --> 01:18:39.309
Black women have always been where all decisions are made. The difference is

01:18:39.309 --> 01:18:42.909
that we've been there through a representative.

01:18:43.489 --> 01:18:44.949
And what do I mean by that?

01:18:46.169 --> 01:18:51.329
There's no place in society black women haven't touched. Even in the ages during

01:18:51.329 --> 01:18:56.929
the age of child slavery, black women were taking care of white children inside the home.

01:18:57.389 --> 01:19:01.169
So there's never been a place that black women haven't been making decisions.

01:19:01.409 --> 01:19:04.589
The difference is that they've been doing it indirectly and not directly.

01:19:04.589 --> 01:19:05.929
And this is what I mean by that.

01:19:06.289 --> 01:19:11.589
When you're making a decision or thinking about how do I pass this law while

01:19:11.589 --> 01:19:14.369
I still, I'll give you a perfect example, Lyndon B. Johnson.

01:19:15.049 --> 01:19:19.809
Lyndon B. Johnson, one of the biggest reasons it is said that he knew that civil

01:19:19.809 --> 01:19:27.009
rights had to carry on after Kennedy died was because his maid for a number

01:19:27.009 --> 01:19:32.389
of years could not travel with him or could not come up from Texas and travel

01:19:32.389 --> 01:19:34.789
with him all the way to the White House.

01:19:34.789 --> 01:19:38.929
She was getting ready to be the maid of the president of the United States and

01:19:38.929 --> 01:19:44.749
expressed to him fears about driving, driving up with him from Texas all the

01:19:44.749 --> 01:19:46.729
way to Washington, D.C., right?

01:19:46.869 --> 01:19:52.429
And so that right there, that decision about what do you do about this domesticated

01:19:52.429 --> 01:19:57.029
worker that you spent your life with in many ways and her safety then makes

01:19:57.029 --> 01:20:01.209
you totally think different about what then needs to be done in these United States.

01:20:01.209 --> 01:20:05.589
And I would argue that that's been the case in big spaces and that's been the

01:20:05.589 --> 01:20:07.709
and that has been the case in little spaces.

01:20:08.449 --> 01:20:12.629
Yeah. All right. So now the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.

01:20:13.389 --> 01:20:19.349
So I need you to give me a number between one and 20. 13. All right.

01:20:20.366 --> 01:20:24.846
Do you think there is such a thing as unbiased news or media and why?

01:20:25.546 --> 01:20:31.926
No, there's no such thing. And because everybody has a perspective and we need

01:20:31.926 --> 01:20:35.506
to walk away from the idea of objectivity.

01:20:35.966 --> 01:20:41.146
Do I think that news now is more sensationalized than it has been in years prior? Yes.

01:20:41.526 --> 01:20:46.586
But the idea of objective news is a falsehood to begin with. Okay.

01:20:47.466 --> 01:20:52.506
So how did a girl from Oakland, California, in the words of Dr.

01:20:52.706 --> 01:20:57.106
Anne-Marie Waterman, blossom into a powerhouse political scientist,

01:20:57.486 --> 01:21:01.186
analyst, speaker, administrator, and associate professor?

01:21:01.986 --> 01:21:07.486
It's funny that you use her quote because she met, I would like to say,

01:21:07.586 --> 01:21:11.886
that little girl from East Oakland right after I left Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

01:21:12.086 --> 01:21:18.166
So I moved from Oakland, California to go to school in Tuscaloosa, Alabama for undergrad.

01:21:18.706 --> 01:21:22.026
Talk about a culture shock. It was a huge culture shock. I enjoyed it,

01:21:22.146 --> 01:21:27.206
but a huge culture shock because I fell in love with my people in different

01:21:27.206 --> 01:21:30.766
ways because I understood after going to school down in the South that there

01:21:30.766 --> 01:21:33.346
was different ways to be Black, and I loved all of them.

01:21:34.266 --> 01:21:40.266
And so then I moved to Washington, D.C. because I graduated in 08 when the economy

01:21:40.266 --> 01:21:45.246
was belly up with the housing crisis. I moved to Washington, D.C.

01:21:45.426 --> 01:21:49.946
I started attending the University of the District of Columbia to get a master's

01:21:49.946 --> 01:21:53.586
in public administration so I could go get my good government job, right?

01:21:53.826 --> 01:21:58.106
Or go to law school, depending on if I had a good enough LSAT score.

01:21:59.006 --> 01:22:03.866
And a professor met me there and said to me, you're too smart to work.

01:22:05.557 --> 01:22:10.357
I said, where I'm from, they don't get those. The only doctors I know are player-hater

01:22:10.357 --> 01:22:13.257
degrees and MDs, medical doctors.

01:22:13.857 --> 01:22:18.937
I said, don't you got to switch to be a PhD? He was like, yeah, it's called methods.

01:22:19.217 --> 01:22:24.697
You'll understand it when you get to three PhD programs, got into two,

01:22:25.237 --> 01:22:26.997
and ended up choosing Howard University.

01:22:27.237 --> 01:22:30.757
And one of the best decisions I think I've made in my life was to be,

01:22:30.957 --> 01:22:36.537
then at that point, become only HBCU educated. And that is when I started really

01:22:36.537 --> 01:22:41.677
digging in and understanding how power works at all these different echelons, right?

01:22:41.817 --> 01:22:46.137
Attending a more liberal arts, small HBCU in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

01:22:47.598 --> 01:22:52.358
Attending UDC, which is more of a regional college, so folks who didn't finish

01:22:52.358 --> 01:22:55.458
or started off the school, all the non-traditional students,

01:22:55.738 --> 01:23:01.598
all those in the government trying to get a degree to move up was where they went. They went to UDC.

01:23:02.278 --> 01:23:06.498
And then to attend the Black Mecca, right, when I'm in class arguing with the

01:23:06.498 --> 01:23:14.518
Sultan of Oman's niece, right, gave me a very full perspective of what power looks like.

01:23:14.718 --> 01:23:19.718
And then how do I articulate it and use it for people that look like me for

01:23:19.718 --> 01:23:21.038
the interest that we have?

01:23:21.558 --> 01:23:26.338
Yeah. So when you talked about the culture shock, I did that. I had the same thing.

01:23:26.578 --> 01:23:30.818
I grew up in Chicago and then went to Jackson State in Mississippi.

01:23:31.338 --> 01:23:37.438
So, yeah. And the way you articulated that, how you fell in love with Black

01:23:37.438 --> 01:23:41.598
people because it was different being black in the South as opposed to,

01:23:41.618 --> 01:23:43.118
you know, growing up in a city.

01:23:43.378 --> 01:23:47.478
I totally appreciate that. That's that's that's very well said.

01:23:47.898 --> 01:23:51.078
Why did you decide to write this book, Visibly Invisible?

01:23:51.538 --> 01:23:55.758
So actually, this is a sequel, as as folks say.

01:23:55.938 --> 01:24:00.318
So my first book, The Congressional Black Caucus, 50 Years of Fighting for Equality,

01:24:00.658 --> 01:24:06.758
was really based upon arguing that the Congressional Black Caucus is actually

01:24:06.758 --> 01:24:07.878
doing something. Right.

01:24:08.478 --> 01:24:11.998
And so there were so many people that were like, they don't do it.

01:24:12.158 --> 01:24:14.658
They don't do it. They don't do it. And I said, no, no, no, no, no.

01:24:14.938 --> 01:24:17.378
You don't understand what they're there to do.

01:24:17.978 --> 01:24:23.238
And I wanted to write a book that was accessible, right. For the community. It, it.

01:24:24.264 --> 01:24:26.324
Usable in the classroom, but accessible

01:24:26.324 --> 01:24:29.884
to the community about what the Congressional Black Caucus does.

01:24:30.124 --> 01:24:32.964
Well, as I started writing the book, I started realizing, wait,

01:24:33.044 --> 01:24:38.724
wait, wait, wait, wait, the women are doing a lot here and they are not getting any of the credit.

01:24:39.044 --> 01:24:43.944
My husband is a Baptist preacher and he often talks about Zipporah in the Bible

01:24:43.944 --> 01:24:48.544
who cut the foreskin of Moses' kids so that there could be an exodus.

01:24:48.964 --> 01:24:54.504
And I realized the black women in the Congressional Black Caucus was doing all

01:24:54.504 --> 01:24:56.424
of the cutting and getting none of the credit.

01:24:57.264 --> 01:25:01.484
And so this book was really about giving them the credit they were due because

01:25:01.484 --> 01:25:05.764
of all the cutting they've been doing for years. I got you.

01:25:06.624 --> 01:25:12.404
As somebody that has been a member of a Black Caucus, I have heard that same commentary.

01:25:12.724 --> 01:25:15.744
Y'all ain't doing nothing up there. Why ain't y'all doing something? I said.

01:25:16.724 --> 01:25:24.064
So part of our job is to make sure that bad stuff doesn't happen based on our numbers, right?

01:25:24.624 --> 01:25:28.744
Right. People do not understand. People are so worried about what you pass,

01:25:28.924 --> 01:25:32.644
they do not focus on what you block. That's right. That's exactly right.

01:25:33.064 --> 01:25:37.924
All right, so I'm going to do something here because it's going to lead to a question.

01:25:39.104 --> 01:25:43.264
This is from, this is the very first paragraph of your book.

01:25:43.584 --> 01:25:47.524
It says, There is no possible compromise in the case of race,

01:25:47.704 --> 01:25:50.584
in social construction, and here are.

01:25:52.181 --> 01:25:55.621
Hierarchical. Thank you. Thank you, Professor.

01:25:56.101 --> 01:26:01.201
Hierarchical manipulation, as these factors were present during the country's founding.

01:26:02.021 --> 01:26:07.361
White elites at the founding understood the convergence of their interests revolved

01:26:07.361 --> 01:26:09.081
around the prevention of tyranny.

01:26:09.421 --> 01:26:14.041
Such prevention of white Southern elites was wrapped in the diminutive legal

01:26:14.041 --> 01:26:19.461
status of blacks. Although northern white elites did not agree without compulsion,

01:26:19.701 --> 01:26:23.841
they understood the importance of the young country's unification.

01:26:24.141 --> 01:26:30.221
A compromise was made in the best interest of white elites to allow poor whites to feel privileged.

01:26:30.941 --> 01:26:34.021
Thus, white superiority became gospel.

01:26:34.341 --> 01:26:40.201
Such a gospel was in direct opposition to an American creed that stated that

01:26:40.201 --> 01:26:43.621
all men were created equal with inalienable rights.

01:26:44.941 --> 01:26:50.681
So you use this as the backdrop of America in 1969 when the Congressional Black

01:26:50.681 --> 01:26:54.121
Caucus then called the Democratic Select Committee was formed.

01:26:54.441 --> 01:26:59.161
So kind of elaborate on that. Why did you decide to hit the reader in the face with that?

01:26:59.661 --> 01:27:04.321
Why? It's so funny. When I was reading it, I was like, man, that's a punch, right?

01:27:04.461 --> 01:27:08.801
Listening to it back, I was like, man, that's a punch.

01:27:09.081 --> 01:27:13.961
I wanted to quickly articulate in a paragraph, which is difficult to do,

01:27:14.181 --> 01:27:18.801
that this understanding of unifying a country is why...

01:27:21.133 --> 01:27:24.253
Why white folks who disagreed allowed for slavery.

01:27:25.693 --> 01:27:30.293
And oftentimes I think that when we're taught about slavery or we're taught

01:27:30.293 --> 01:27:34.953
about the origins of this country, we are taught them in this,

01:27:35.033 --> 01:27:37.533
you know, good or bad, right?

01:27:37.673 --> 01:27:43.033
Good angel, bad angel, right? We're taught about it in this dichotomy of left or right.

01:27:43.213 --> 01:27:49.853
And I wanted the readers off the gate to understand that this is more of a spectrum.

01:27:50.133 --> 01:27:53.793
Right. I tell my students all the time, yes, there is black and white,

01:27:54.213 --> 01:27:56.333
but life is lived in the gray.

01:27:57.393 --> 01:28:01.953
And because life is lived in the gray, I wanted to make sure that we understood

01:28:01.953 --> 01:28:04.753
that that the founders had a decision.

01:28:05.173 --> 01:28:11.173
Do we unify a country and allow for slavery or do we allow ourselves to be picked

01:28:11.173 --> 01:28:16.793
off state by state at that time or colony by colony at that time and not have

01:28:16.793 --> 01:28:18.173
a United States of America?

01:28:18.173 --> 01:28:21.333
And what do we hold our nose and accept?

01:28:22.365 --> 01:28:29.685
Well, after holding your nose and accepting it, it bloomed and swole and swelled

01:28:29.685 --> 01:28:31.605
and even caused a civil war.

01:28:31.865 --> 01:28:36.945
And because those ideas were so entrenched, right, because poor white people

01:28:36.945 --> 01:28:41.705
started to believe that they were better than black people or Native American people so much.

01:28:41.705 --> 01:28:44.625
We have what we still are dealing with

01:28:44.625 --> 01:28:47.685
today in this white superiority in this

01:28:47.685 --> 01:28:50.785
white superiority complex that was only created

01:28:50.785 --> 01:28:54.025
for such a time to unify a

01:28:54.025 --> 01:28:57.285
country and that is no longer unifying the country it

01:28:57.285 --> 01:29:00.245
is breaking the country apart and it is breaking the

01:29:00.245 --> 01:29:06.485
country apart because blacks were then granted citizenship with the civil rights

01:29:06.485 --> 01:29:11.225
act of 1965 that that activated their citizenship and that black people have

01:29:11.225 --> 01:29:16.405
been running with that citizenship ever since they were allowed inside of the

01:29:16.405 --> 01:29:19.545
United States House of Representatives in 1969.

01:29:21.024 --> 01:29:26.544
You contend that the CBC is a party faction in the United States Congress.

01:29:26.904 --> 01:29:28.304
Explain what you mean by that.

01:29:28.944 --> 01:29:32.744
Yeah. So in an academic world, we have a conversation.

01:29:32.984 --> 01:29:39.164
Well, if you think about the Federalist Papers, right, some of the founders talk about factions.

01:29:39.564 --> 01:29:44.724
And then in an academic world, it's our job to move those kind of ideas forward.

01:29:44.724 --> 01:29:50.644
And so DeSalvo in the early 2000s said that one of the biggest reasons we see

01:29:50.644 --> 01:29:56.104
consternation inside of parties is because a party can have a group or a faction

01:29:56.104 --> 01:29:59.004
that then slows down how the party operates.

01:29:59.404 --> 01:30:05.424
And I argued that in the 111th Congress, the Congressional Black Caucus was

01:30:05.424 --> 01:30:07.304
no longer just a disturbing force.

01:30:07.304 --> 01:30:10.704
They had became their own faction and they

01:30:10.704 --> 01:30:13.824
had become a faction that then slowed down or

01:30:13.824 --> 01:30:17.104
altered I shouldn't say slowed down but altered how the Democratic Party

01:30:17.104 --> 01:30:20.264
operated and we've seen that we we've seen

01:30:20.264 --> 01:30:25.684
that even from the kicking out or stopping Joe Biden from running for office

01:30:25.684 --> 01:30:29.744
right because the person that replaced him was once a member of the Congressional

01:30:29.744 --> 01:30:34.504
Black Caucus and so if we think about it in those terms the Congressional Black

01:30:34.504 --> 01:30:38.844
Caucus gained saliency meaning that they had a standing member on,

01:30:38.964 --> 01:30:42.884
they had a member on every standing committee inside the House of Representatives.

01:30:43.184 --> 01:30:47.644
So that means there was no piece of legislation that was brought in that House

01:30:47.644 --> 01:30:50.964
that made it to committee that a member of this caucus didn't see.

01:30:51.124 --> 01:30:56.444
And that gave them an enormous amount of power that the current structure is

01:30:56.444 --> 01:30:58.024
trying to stop and halt right now.

01:30:58.604 --> 01:31:03.704
Yeah. And that was something, another thing we had to relate to people,

01:31:04.124 --> 01:31:08.744
constituents, was that I would tell people it's like there are the white Democrats,

01:31:09.284 --> 01:31:13.324
there's the white Republicans, and then there was us, the black folk.

01:31:14.183 --> 01:31:18.603
And most of the time we sided with the white Democrats, but every now and then

01:31:18.603 --> 01:31:23.883
we had to side with the white Republicans, especially we were in a unique situation

01:31:23.883 --> 01:31:26.863
where Medicaid wasn't a state department.

01:31:27.223 --> 01:31:32.123
It was actually something we contracted out and a black doctor had the contract.

01:31:32.543 --> 01:31:37.183
So the white Democrats wanted the state agency and the white Republicans were

01:31:37.183 --> 01:31:38.643
like, no, we like the private thing.

01:31:38.783 --> 01:31:42.263
So we used to vote with the Republicans to make sure that that brother kept

01:31:42.263 --> 01:31:45.383
that contract for as long as he did. Now, it's a state agency now,

01:31:45.563 --> 01:31:52.543
but we try to, you know, we try to keep that brother employed with that contract as long as we could.

01:31:53.043 --> 01:31:57.723
But you're making a good point here. And this is what the founder of the Congressional

01:31:57.723 --> 01:32:02.783
Black Caucus said, Charles Diggs, that black people do not have permanent parties.

01:32:02.783 --> 01:32:04.243
They have permanent interest.

01:32:04.543 --> 01:32:11.403
And I think that what what we have been been romanticized into believing is

01:32:11.403 --> 01:32:14.303
that black people would not vote that way,

01:32:14.403 --> 01:32:18.223
that black people would decide they were going to take party right over then

01:32:18.223 --> 01:32:20.123
this black man. that that has not been the case.

01:32:20.263 --> 01:32:22.743
It's not what I've seen in my research and it's not been the case.

01:32:22.863 --> 01:32:27.623
I think that we have to understand that black people for wholesale normally

01:32:27.623 --> 01:32:31.963
align themselves with the Democratic Party because it gives them the opportunity

01:32:31.963 --> 01:32:34.703
to continue to fight for their interest.

01:32:34.703 --> 01:32:39.023
But it doesn't then mean that they walk lockstep in whatever the Democratic

01:32:39.023 --> 01:32:43.683
Party says at the local level, at the state level, or at the federal level. Yeah.

01:32:44.343 --> 01:32:50.223
Do you agree with Pearl Dowd's argument that elite Black women have a unique

01:32:50.223 --> 01:32:55.343
political ambition that compels them to move beyond service to seek office?

01:32:56.063 --> 01:33:02.983
Absolutely. And I agree with Pearl because the Black elite in this country have always existed.

01:33:04.028 --> 01:33:09.248
I think that now that we have social media that's prevalent in a learning space,

01:33:09.368 --> 01:33:10.868
right, not just in a relatable space,

01:33:11.008 --> 01:33:15.028
not for me to post my pictures at the family reunion and all those kind of things,

01:33:15.148 --> 01:33:21.728
but using social media to educate as a way to counteract the narrative about

01:33:21.728 --> 01:33:23.028
certain historical events.

01:33:23.888 --> 01:33:26.828
Many people are learning that there have been black elites

01:33:26.828 --> 01:33:29.688
in this country for a long time And black

01:33:29.688 --> 01:33:34.088
elites have found a way to infiltrate

01:33:34.088 --> 01:33:36.968
right certain areas in american life not

01:33:36.968 --> 01:33:40.228
just in politics but in american life To then forward

01:33:40.228 --> 01:33:43.328
then the cause of black people

01:33:43.328 --> 01:33:46.668
And so what happens for black women in particular is

01:33:46.668 --> 01:33:49.828
that they are serving oftentimes the black

01:33:49.828 --> 01:33:53.528
men that get to do get to be in those spaces and

01:33:53.528 --> 01:33:56.408
now black women are are have you

01:33:56.408 --> 01:33:59.468
know in some ways cracked a glass ceiling to get themselves

01:33:59.468 --> 01:34:03.908
at the table to say hey hey hey hey hey it's no more just black elites black

01:34:03.908 --> 01:34:08.028
male elites you're going to have to deal with there there are black female elites

01:34:08.028 --> 01:34:11.728
that you're going to have to deal with and when black female elites that step

01:34:11.728 --> 01:34:16.128
up to the table to serve they're oftentimes bringing the marginalized with them

01:34:16.128 --> 01:34:19.448
in a way that black male elites just aren't So,

01:34:19.768 --> 01:34:26.128
so answer this question for me, because that came up a lot in 2024 with Vice

01:34:26.128 --> 01:34:28.568
President Harris running and.

01:34:29.387 --> 01:34:38.187
There were some black men who were like, why is it that we're putting a woman,

01:34:38.447 --> 01:34:41.367
a black woman up instead of another black man?

01:34:41.727 --> 01:34:48.027
Why is it that, you know, it seems like we're having this concerted effort to

01:34:48.027 --> 01:34:52.867
recruit women to run for office as opposed to recruiting men?

01:34:52.867 --> 01:35:01.647
And, you know, it's this age old thing where it seems like whether it's an outside force or internal,

01:35:02.067 --> 01:35:07.927
there's a concern about black women pushing aside black men.

01:35:08.127 --> 01:35:10.867
And, you know, you're a first lady.

01:35:11.147 --> 01:35:13.807
So, you know, people say that even in the church. Right.

01:35:14.167 --> 01:35:19.327
How do you what is your your response to those kind of concerns?

01:35:19.987 --> 01:35:23.847
You see, I was sneezing in the middle of your question, so that lets you know

01:35:23.847 --> 01:35:24.887
I'm allergic to that bullshit.

01:35:29.208 --> 01:35:32.228
This is something I think that Black men have to wrestle with,

01:35:32.468 --> 01:35:34.668
and it's a wrestle even in my marriage.

01:35:35.288 --> 01:35:40.608
Black men have to wrestle with the idea that they will never experience white

01:35:40.608 --> 01:35:42.848
patriarchy the same way white men have.

01:35:43.548 --> 01:35:50.208
And I think that it's a struggle because the society, our society here in America,

01:35:50.488 --> 01:35:53.588
is not only white-dominated, it's white male-dominated.

01:35:53.588 --> 01:36:01.788
And so black men in many ways want to be able to control that power and wield it when they get ready.

01:36:01.948 --> 01:36:05.768
But the problem is their societies are not built that way.

01:36:05.988 --> 01:36:09.748
For the most part, African societies are matriarchal. And

01:36:09.748 --> 01:36:12.748
so then you see this hypervigilance amongst

01:36:12.748 --> 01:36:15.548
the men In matriarchal societies We see

01:36:15.548 --> 01:36:18.608
this even in Mexican or Latin culture Where

01:36:18.608 --> 01:36:25.448
the machismo of men is even stronger Because of the matriarchal way in which

01:36:25.448 --> 01:36:30.168
the society is formed And I think black men have to take a step back and say

01:36:30.168 --> 01:36:36.348
Do I want to keep chasing after this elusive ring Of this black patriarchy That

01:36:36.348 --> 01:36:38.288
white men are never going to let me have

01:36:38.608 --> 01:36:44.448
Or do I make the decision that I'm okay with living inside of this matriarchal

01:36:44.448 --> 01:36:46.828
black society that I'm currently living in?

01:36:47.208 --> 01:36:52.348
And how do I then come to the table with black women so we can split up the pie?

01:36:52.608 --> 01:36:57.148
Because if you think about it, if there was a fight in the family, it was Big Mama.

01:36:57.408 --> 01:37:00.728
It was Madea. It was Grandmother.

01:37:01.148 --> 01:37:05.928
It was Auntie. Those are the people that solve those family arguments or family

01:37:05.928 --> 01:37:10.928
fights because we operate in a matriarchal society internally.

01:37:11.348 --> 01:37:15.048
And so I think that if black men...

01:37:15.516 --> 01:37:19.096
To grips with the fact that white men are never going to allow you to have what

01:37:19.096 --> 01:37:25.176
they have and come back to the table inside of our matriarchal society as black

01:37:25.176 --> 01:37:28.396
folks and decide how much of the power we couldn't up.

01:37:28.716 --> 01:37:32.976
Because what they will find if they do that is that there's not as many black

01:37:32.976 --> 01:37:37.556
women that want to be in charge as they think, right? That's an illusion and a mirage.

01:37:37.716 --> 01:37:41.296
It's just not that. It's just that black women don't want to be trapped, right?

01:37:41.396 --> 01:37:45.696
There's a difference with being trapped because we watched previous generations

01:37:45.696 --> 01:37:50.916
of our families as women be trapped in situations. We just don't want to be trapped.

01:37:51.056 --> 01:37:53.456
We don't necessarily want to take over.

01:37:54.196 --> 01:38:00.496
We got you. You know, I had a professor on that had written a book about the colored conventions.

01:38:00.916 --> 01:38:05.196
And one of the things I noticed was that the men ran the meeting,

01:38:05.196 --> 01:38:10.376
but the project managers were the women because they were the ones that handled logistics.

01:38:10.376 --> 01:38:12.936
They were the ones that made sure Everybody had something to eat and,

01:38:12.956 --> 01:38:18.196
you know, even even picking out the accommodations as far as where they were going to meet at. Right.

01:38:18.476 --> 01:38:23.116
So it's always been that that, like you say, historically and culturally has

01:38:23.116 --> 01:38:24.116
been that relationship.

01:38:24.596 --> 01:38:33.896
But I guess when you when people see white men doing this and black men say, well, I want to be that.

01:38:33.896 --> 01:38:41.736
And for whatever reason people get caught up in saying well she's trying to

01:38:41.736 --> 01:38:45.396
stop me from being great and it's like that's.

01:38:46.385 --> 01:38:51.765
That's not how that works. It's like, it's like, well, not that I would argue,

01:38:51.885 --> 01:38:54.865
I will argue, Erik, that white men keep wanting to put your,

01:38:54.885 --> 01:38:57.145
put your attention to that with the numbers, right?

01:38:57.385 --> 01:39:01.105
There are less black men going to, there are less black men going to college.

01:39:01.285 --> 01:39:04.605
Why is that? Because white men keep locking y'all up, right?

01:39:04.905 --> 01:39:08.985
There are less black men. There are less black men that are inside of black

01:39:08.985 --> 01:39:12.105
churches. And I would even argue in some ways, black mosque, right?

01:39:12.165 --> 01:39:17.065
We're seeing that in both kind of our spiritual anchor spaces. Why is that?

01:39:17.205 --> 01:39:22.365
Because black men have then become disconnected to the God that's created them

01:39:22.365 --> 01:39:26.505
and are chasing after this economic freedom or success.

01:39:26.685 --> 01:39:33.785
If we think about it, white men have hurt you and then used the numbers to then

01:39:33.785 --> 01:39:39.205
produce or to mirror or reflect back to you that you're in a diminutive position.

01:39:39.205 --> 01:39:43.205
When in actuality, they are the reason they've reduced your numbers.

01:39:43.385 --> 01:39:46.825
They've reduced your numbers in college because they've convinced you you can

01:39:46.825 --> 01:39:49.145
be successful without a college degree.

01:39:49.345 --> 01:39:53.325
They've reduced your numbers in population because they've locked you up.

01:39:53.465 --> 01:39:57.145
They've made it so that you can't get good jobs because they've locked you up.

01:39:57.145 --> 01:40:00.525
They've disconnected you in many ways from your God because they've told you

01:40:00.525 --> 01:40:01.625
money should be your God.

01:40:01.845 --> 01:40:05.905
Like, if we think about this at its base level,

01:40:06.145 --> 01:40:11.605
the reason that narrative that black women are coming for you can be used so

01:40:11.605 --> 01:40:18.885
adroitly is because black women are the most educated affinity group inside

01:40:18.885 --> 01:40:20.705
of the United States right now, right?

01:40:20.705 --> 01:40:25.705
That's not by accident because that that's because we don't want to be trapped.

01:40:25.905 --> 01:40:30.265
Right. But they are using that very thing then against you.

01:40:30.525 --> 01:40:34.485
And so that's where I get confused. I get confused. If you understand that they're

01:40:34.485 --> 01:40:40.685
doing this to you on one hand, why then you do not understand the effects of it on the other hand? No.

01:40:41.345 --> 01:40:45.325
All right. Let's get back to the book. Appreciate you going down that rabbit trail with me.

01:40:46.232 --> 01:40:50.412
Shirley Chisholm. I mean, Erik, that's what the book is about for all intents and purposes.

01:40:50.732 --> 01:40:55.592
The whole reason the book was written was because Black women in particular

01:40:55.592 --> 01:40:58.972
allowed Black men to take the forefront, right?

01:40:59.372 --> 01:41:03.152
Allowed them to take the forefront. And I wanted to write a book that put the

01:41:03.152 --> 01:41:04.932
women at the forefront. Yes, ma'am.

01:41:05.672 --> 01:41:08.972
So Shirley Chisholm was the first Black female elected to Congress,

01:41:09.012 --> 01:41:13.972
and she was one of the founders of the CBC. that in the 1972 election,

01:41:14.352 --> 01:41:18.792
Yvonne Braithwaite Burke, Curtis Collins, and Barbara Jordan joined her.

01:41:18.972 --> 01:41:23.752
You make the point that these ladies laid the foundation for future Black females

01:41:23.752 --> 01:41:27.952
in Congress and for the caucus itself. Talk about that.

01:41:28.732 --> 01:41:32.912
Yeah, especially Cardiss Collins. So Shirley Chisholm gets a lot of shout out,

01:41:33.152 --> 01:41:40.672
but Cardiss Collins plays a huge role because there is, there's successive congressional

01:41:40.672 --> 01:41:46.472
sessions where she's the only Black woman inside of that Congress.

01:41:46.732 --> 01:41:52.192
And what I mean by the foundation is that they made a decision collectively

01:41:52.192 --> 01:41:59.012
and individually that it did not matter that the larger apparatus wanted to silence them.

01:41:59.092 --> 01:42:02.132
They were going to be absolute in their activism.

01:42:02.892 --> 01:42:07.832
Cardiss Collins, I mean, authored so many bills, it's mind dizzying, right?

01:42:07.912 --> 01:42:11.392
The amount of bills that she offered, knowing they were going nowhere,

01:42:11.712 --> 01:42:15.772
knowing that they weren't going to become law, but you are going to see me.

01:42:15.972 --> 01:42:18.992
And what they did, what,

01:42:19.675 --> 01:42:22.895
what Shirley Chisholm did in running for president, you're going to see me.

01:42:23.055 --> 01:42:28.855
What Cardiss Collins did as far as the amount of legislation she put through, you're going to see me.

01:42:28.975 --> 01:42:33.075
If you think about Burke, Burke's understanding by being from the Midwest,

01:42:33.355 --> 01:42:38.215
right, and pushing back against this narrative of Black women needing to be

01:42:38.215 --> 01:42:40.455
homemakers, right, you're going to see me.

01:42:40.555 --> 01:42:45.295
What I argue in this foundation is that they taught every other Black woman

01:42:45.295 --> 01:42:50.215
behind them, don't wait for them to recognize you, force them to see you.

01:42:50.715 --> 01:42:58.015
Yeah. And, and so I'm old enough to remember when she got elected because her

01:42:58.015 --> 01:43:04.395
husband died and he was, he was a congressman and he died in that terrible crash at Midway airport.

01:43:05.235 --> 01:43:10.295
And, you know, so that was a big deal when, when she took over and it was,

01:43:10.455 --> 01:43:15.575
it was, it was almost kind of like, you know, well, we're offering her a courtesy

01:43:15.575 --> 01:43:16.835
because she's the widow.

01:43:17.815 --> 01:43:21.195
And, you know, even though we were in Chicago, we had a lot of Southern ways

01:43:21.195 --> 01:43:23.715
and that's in the South, that was kind of like how they did it.

01:43:23.835 --> 01:43:27.455
It's like, if the governor died and the, then, or, you know,

01:43:27.695 --> 01:43:31.335
a representative, then the, the widow would, would take the spot.

01:43:32.135 --> 01:43:37.855
And, you know, but she proved to be an incredible force. When I had a chance to actually meet her.

01:43:38.823 --> 01:43:42.223
Don't forget, we were sitting there and I was just telling her how much I admired

01:43:42.223 --> 01:43:44.423
her and how much it was the inspiration.

01:43:44.783 --> 01:43:50.123
I think she was taken aback because, you know, it was like he was a young man

01:43:50.123 --> 01:43:54.523
saying that she was the inspiration as opposed to a young woman saying it. Right.

01:43:55.183 --> 01:44:00.463
So, you know, I she was she was really, really a sweet lady.

01:44:00.923 --> 01:44:05.063
She knew what she was doing in that building, but she was really, really a nice person.

01:44:05.623 --> 01:44:08.383
And and in this day and age in politics you

01:44:08.383 --> 01:44:11.103
don't usually get that mix right right and no one

01:44:11.103 --> 01:44:14.083
thought that she would after giving i'm glad you brought up the courtesy piece and

01:44:14.083 --> 01:44:17.483
i didn't want to dive into it for those that didn't are familiar that's why

01:44:17.483 --> 01:44:20.623
i said that she was important to push back against that narrative that black

01:44:20.623 --> 01:44:25.803
women should stay at home right after she after she takes the seat as courtesy

01:44:25.803 --> 01:44:31.903
she continues to win and that i mean she ran her own race under her own name

01:44:31.903 --> 01:44:33.283
right If we think about it,

01:44:33.343 --> 01:44:37.443
she's the first woman that's inside the Congress with a hyphenated name.

01:44:37.643 --> 01:44:42.343
This idea of hyphenation. She kept her maiden name and then took on the married name.

01:44:42.603 --> 01:44:46.183
There's all of these things that she did of, no, you're going to see me.

01:44:46.483 --> 01:44:52.383
And what that really taught successive black female legislators is that if you're

01:44:52.383 --> 01:44:56.783
waiting on them to acknowledge you, you'll be waiting till you die. Yeah.

01:44:57.663 --> 01:45:01.563
Define the phenomenon called resolute legislative activism.

01:45:02.427 --> 01:45:07.747
So resolute legislative activism. So I argued in the first book that the Congressional

01:45:07.747 --> 01:45:13.827
Black Caucus were, they were not just legislators, they were activists, right?

01:45:13.947 --> 01:45:18.387
Because there's been this argument about, again, is the Congressional Black

01:45:18.387 --> 01:45:22.967
Caucus doing its job, right? And I argued in the first book that they are because

01:45:22.967 --> 01:45:24.427
they're legislative activists.

01:45:24.787 --> 01:45:33.347
They are using legislative tools and bully pulpits to then push forward issues

01:45:33.347 --> 01:45:39.447
that eventually become law, even if it means that they do not live to see it.

01:45:39.447 --> 01:45:45.267
When it comes to the women, I called it resolute legislative activism because

01:45:45.267 --> 01:45:48.247
nothing and no one was going to deter them.

01:45:48.467 --> 01:45:52.807
And I mean nothing and no one. If we think about, I love you,

01:45:53.087 --> 01:45:59.367
Sheila Jackson Lee, God rest her soul. she put a reparations bill up every year

01:45:59.367 --> 01:46:01.427
after John Conyers left, right?

01:46:01.547 --> 01:46:08.747
After John Conyers left, she put up a reparations bill, a study, every year, right?

01:46:08.967 --> 01:46:20.287
And so when we think about Black women, they are unabashed in talking about

01:46:20.287 --> 01:46:21.747
what everybody doesn't want to talk about.

01:46:22.610 --> 01:46:25.730
Unabashed at, let's pull the covers off this thing.

01:46:26.170 --> 01:46:31.270
There's no termenity there. And I think that oftentimes because they have different

01:46:31.270 --> 01:46:38.390
personalities, we ascribe that or attribute that to more outspoken women in the Congress,

01:46:38.610 --> 01:46:43.210
not understanding that even the Terry Sewells of the world that may have a more

01:46:43.210 --> 01:46:47.590
sweeter demeanor are in no way not connected to that.

01:46:47.730 --> 01:46:52.350
And I wanted to use quantitative data, numbers to show that.

01:46:52.470 --> 01:46:54.690
And that is what that theory is all about.

01:46:54.910 --> 01:47:00.950
Taking the numbers to show people Black women author more bills inside of the

01:47:00.950 --> 01:47:05.350
United States Congress for the history of that Congress and them being in it

01:47:05.350 --> 01:47:08.650
than any other affinity group in these United States.

01:47:09.130 --> 01:47:14.470
Yeah. And I'm going to use that when people ask me about my experience.

01:47:14.470 --> 01:47:19.390
I say, well, I practice resolute legislative activism because I always introduced

01:47:19.390 --> 01:47:25.430
like the same bills over and over again myself. So I appreciate that going back to the title.

01:47:25.970 --> 01:47:31.650
You are basically describing the act of legislating, whereas we invisibly introduce

01:47:31.650 --> 01:47:37.690
legislation, but once the legislation passes is visible for all to see that. Correct. Yeah.

01:47:38.130 --> 01:47:41.530
Correct. And, and, and it's a, it's a, it's, it's layered this,

01:47:41.630 --> 01:47:44.830
this visibly and this invisible is layered. It's the idea of,

01:47:45.030 --> 01:47:49.150
When I was putting the legislation in the hopper, it was invisible, right?

01:47:49.390 --> 01:47:54.330
Until it becomes nationally, there's some level of national attention.

01:47:54.610 --> 01:47:58.330
And now that it's national attention, it's visible, but I'm not visible.

01:47:58.610 --> 01:48:02.050
The issue is visible, but me as a Black woman, I'm not visible.

01:48:02.270 --> 01:48:08.190
And in the inverse, if there is an issue that's happening inside of the country that.

01:48:08.513 --> 01:48:11.493
Make me extremely visible right to prove

01:48:11.493 --> 01:48:14.793
the point or to buttress your argument but the

01:48:14.793 --> 01:48:17.753
things that i've been fighting for for years or decades didn't

01:48:17.753 --> 01:48:20.553
become and become invisible so now it's

01:48:20.553 --> 01:48:23.753
i'm just a loud mouth out here about whatever issue

01:48:23.753 --> 01:48:26.573
that is that's raised up i'll give you an example going

01:48:26.573 --> 01:48:29.593
back to sheila jackson lee we made they they

01:48:29.593 --> 01:48:32.513
made her be the super visible when she

01:48:32.513 --> 01:48:35.553
was attacking united during pandemic because

01:48:35.553 --> 01:48:38.933
they were taking bonuses right while

01:48:38.933 --> 01:48:41.773
while the federal government was propping up the industry right

01:48:41.773 --> 01:48:44.633
the the the fat cats were taking bonuses so she

01:48:44.633 --> 01:48:51.473
did now becomes extremely visible about hollering down these these ceos and

01:48:51.473 --> 01:48:55.133
these top these these top corporate folks about taking these bonuses during

01:48:55.133 --> 01:48:59.853
that time she becomes highly visible right but the but the long haul of her

01:48:59.853 --> 01:49:04.513
career is invisible in that she's been doing that the entire time.

01:49:04.693 --> 01:49:09.093
So why is she now all of a sudden extremely visible because she's hollering

01:49:09.093 --> 01:49:15.313
at these white CEOs when that has been her career the entire time she's been inside of the Congress?

01:49:15.453 --> 01:49:20.253
And so when I talk about this invisibility-visibility thing, it cuts both ways.

01:49:20.373 --> 01:49:25.293
And unfortunately, Black women never get the positive end of that stick. Yeah.

01:49:25.593 --> 01:49:29.653
Another thing you point out in the book is that Black women in Congress have

01:49:29.653 --> 01:49:33.533
sponsored or introduced more legislation than any other group.

01:49:33.633 --> 01:49:35.593
And I think that's important to know.

01:49:35.793 --> 01:49:40.413
What is the significance of the 31 Black women serving in Congress today?

01:49:41.642 --> 01:49:46.282
To be honest with you, I think that they are reshaping what they are in the

01:49:46.282 --> 01:49:48.822
spot right now to reshape what America looks like.

01:49:49.402 --> 01:49:54.562
Because Donald Trump has done has been so adroit at right at dismantling in

01:49:54.562 --> 01:50:01.842
many ways the way we understand the relationship from Congress to the presidency,

01:50:02.062 --> 01:50:04.442
not to the president, but to the presidency.

01:50:04.442 --> 01:50:11.162
I think that these Black women, and coming up very soon here in this next congressional

01:50:11.162 --> 01:50:15.642
session, especially if Democrats are able to wrestle back one of these houses,

01:50:15.982 --> 01:50:21.842
these Black women will get the opportunity to remake what America looks like.

01:50:21.842 --> 01:50:26.982
Because oftentimes people do not understand that the progression that we've

01:50:26.982 --> 01:50:33.042
seen in our American life is based upon this tension between presidency and

01:50:33.042 --> 01:50:36.782
Congress, not the tension between Democrat and Republican.

01:50:37.262 --> 01:50:42.482
That tension is there and it exists and it's becoming more impolarizing every

01:50:42.482 --> 01:50:49.042
day, yes, but the real tension is how does the Congress stop the president because.

01:50:49.879 --> 01:50:53.859
Does the Congress stop the president from becoming king or queen, right?

01:50:54.179 --> 01:50:59.059
That is where the real tension is in our system. And I think that especially

01:50:59.059 --> 01:51:02.859
if Democrats are able to wrestle back one of these houses, we are going to see

01:51:02.859 --> 01:51:06.579
these black women pounce into action, right? I mean, we're seeing it every day.

01:51:06.719 --> 01:51:11.219
If we think about Jasmine Crockett, if we think about a Stacey Placid,

01:51:11.599 --> 01:51:17.399
if we think about Lisa Blunt Rochester, who's now on the Senate side, right?

01:51:17.399 --> 01:51:22.979
If you're paying attention to C-SPAN, right, you will see these Black women

01:51:22.979 --> 01:51:28.099
investigating, right, and coming back with real questions to the people that

01:51:28.099 --> 01:51:30.539
they subpoenaed to come and testify before Congress,

01:51:31.039 --> 01:51:35.219
right, knowing I may not be able to do something right now, but I'm keeping

01:51:35.219 --> 01:51:40.359
notes because the next congressional session starts in January of 2027,

01:51:40.359 --> 01:51:44.079
and if the Democrats are able to win back the House at the minimum,

01:51:44.519 --> 01:51:47.859
the president is in trouble, and he knows it.

01:51:48.727 --> 01:51:54.507
All right. At the end of the book, you suggest seven steps for black women to

01:51:54.507 --> 01:51:58.107
take in order to become a viable candidate for political office.

01:51:58.367 --> 01:52:00.567
Can you list those for the listeners?

01:52:01.287 --> 01:52:05.907
Absolutely. So, number one, I think it's important that you become active in your community.

01:52:06.147 --> 01:52:10.507
What we see for almost all black women is that there's no way to then become

01:52:10.507 --> 01:52:14.827
anything if you're not active in your community because you need people to say

01:52:14.827 --> 01:52:16.747
she's the one to lead us forward.

01:52:17.327 --> 01:52:21.527
Number two, you need a mentor. Find you a mentor. And what I mean by a mentor

01:52:21.527 --> 01:52:25.987
is someone that is emotionally tied to the work that you're doing and how you're doing.

01:52:26.347 --> 01:52:30.007
That's why I thought it was funny that you introduced this segment with Anne-Marie

01:52:30.007 --> 01:52:35.167
Waterman because she has been my mentor since she found this 21-year-old kid

01:52:35.167 --> 01:52:37.527
at the University of the District of Columbia.

01:52:37.867 --> 01:52:42.967
Join a sorority, any one of the D9. Do one that's attached to your heart.

01:52:43.067 --> 01:52:46.067
Don't just do one, do one. But join a sorority because

01:52:46.067 --> 01:52:49.267
it will help you to understand that you're not in this fight alone And

01:52:49.267 --> 01:52:52.567
that there are other black women that are doing a lot of the same things

01:52:52.567 --> 01:52:56.627
that you are And so it'll give you a launching

01:52:56.627 --> 01:52:59.647
pad But it'll also give you in some ways a place of refuge

01:52:59.647 --> 01:53:04.967
So that you feel safe in the things that you will face if you're going to run

01:53:04.967 --> 01:53:10.467
for office Join and engage a civil rights organization I know people have a

01:53:10.467 --> 01:53:17.647
lot of things to say about Rainbow Coalition push or the NAN Network or NAACP,

01:53:17.707 --> 01:53:22.087
but these legacy civil rights organizations are legacy...

01:53:23.313 --> 01:53:27.273
Civil rights organizations for a reason. And you want to at least engage them

01:53:27.273 --> 01:53:31.213
and know about them so that you understand how legacies play out.

01:53:31.293 --> 01:53:34.453
Because if you get inside of that United States Congress, especially,

01:53:34.753 --> 01:53:40.973
you have to understand how legacies replete themselves in the moving forward of this country.

01:53:41.753 --> 01:53:45.073
Support Black women currently running for office. Go volunteer.

01:53:45.493 --> 01:53:50.113
Don't look for a check. Just go support your sister because she cannot raise

01:53:50.113 --> 01:53:53.813
the same amount of money that her counterparts are able to raise, black men included.

01:53:54.433 --> 01:53:59.293
And so supporting a black woman that is running for office by volunteering in

01:53:59.293 --> 01:54:03.813
her office will give you a front row seat of how things work,

01:54:03.913 --> 01:54:08.733
what they're up against, but it will also then show your solidarity for that black woman.

01:54:09.153 --> 01:54:13.593
Number six, engage black and female political action committees.

01:54:13.753 --> 01:54:17.113
Now, PACs are something that people find to be repulsive.

01:54:17.373 --> 01:54:22.053
However, because of the Citizens United case, that they used to try to stop

01:54:22.053 --> 01:54:24.633
the second term of Barack Obama, which wasn't successful.

01:54:25.353 --> 01:54:28.853
We have seen these super PACs rear their ugly head.

01:54:29.153 --> 01:54:32.293
Well, instead of fighting against, join the party.

01:54:32.573 --> 01:54:38.333
Get inside of a super PAC. The collective is one of those black ones out of Washington, D.C.

01:54:38.653 --> 01:54:43.533
Join these super PACs and these collectives, because what you don't understand

01:54:43.533 --> 01:54:49.853
is your $25 a month is huge inside of that PAC versus that $25 a month that

01:54:49.853 --> 01:54:51.353
you're paying directly to that candidate.

01:54:52.228 --> 01:54:56.328
And lastly, get involved in candidate training programs.

01:54:56.528 --> 01:55:00.308
The Congressional Black Caucus Foundation has one that I attended.

01:55:00.568 --> 01:55:06.608
I still have the booklet. I attended in 2020, part of it for my research, and attended that.

01:55:06.828 --> 01:55:12.048
But there are candidate training programs locally and at the state level.

01:55:12.188 --> 01:55:19.568
And when you do that, you are sending a signal to the rest of the Democratic little deed, not big D,

01:55:19.728 --> 01:55:25.608
to the Democratic apparatus that you are a viable person to represent at the

01:55:25.608 --> 01:55:28.228
state level, at the local level and at the federal level.

01:55:28.848 --> 01:55:35.668
All right. So I've been asking my guests as we close out to finish this sentence.

01:55:36.248 --> 01:55:38.108
I have hope because...

01:55:39.725 --> 01:55:43.965
I have hope because of the bright black women that I see behind me every day.

01:55:44.865 --> 01:55:51.505
I just attended the induction ceremony for the 100 black men for the collegiate

01:55:51.505 --> 01:55:53.185
chapter they have at Southern University.

01:55:54.025 --> 01:55:58.705
One of the young women that asked me to attend, because I am a member of the

01:55:58.705 --> 01:56:01.285
100 black women, and she asked me to attend.

01:56:01.485 --> 01:56:07.085
She's from California, and I begged her dad that I grew up with to let her come to school down here.

01:56:07.085 --> 01:56:15.205
And to watch those 57 young people on the stage gave me the hope that I don't

01:56:15.205 --> 01:56:20.705
feel like we have right now to watch how excited they are about changing the world around them.

01:56:21.145 --> 01:56:25.985
That's where I get my hope. All right. So Dr. Sherice Janaye Nelson,

01:56:26.225 --> 01:56:30.645
how can people get this book Visibly Invisible and how can people reach out to you?

01:56:31.225 --> 01:56:36.425
Absolutely. So Visibly Invisible is available where all books are sold. You can go to Amazon.

01:56:36.845 --> 01:56:42.045
You can go to Barnes & Noble online. You can also go to UW Press.

01:56:42.305 --> 01:56:45.185
UW Press is the press that released this book.

01:56:45.365 --> 01:56:52.925
A black woman, the only black woman who owns a scholarly book of books.

01:56:53.405 --> 01:56:57.425
Oftentimes we black folks own printing presses, but they're not scholarly ones

01:56:57.425 --> 01:56:59.185
that are recognized by the academic community.

01:56:59.365 --> 01:57:03.005
She owns one at UW Press. So if you want to support that black woman,

01:57:03.105 --> 01:57:04.345
go ahead and order it from there.

01:57:04.605 --> 01:57:06.585
And then you can reach out to me.

01:57:07.185 --> 01:57:12.225
I'm really big on Instagram because that's the bridge between TikTok and Facebook.

01:57:12.365 --> 01:57:18.525
So you can catch me at the at sign D-R-J-A-N-A-Y-E.

01:57:18.925 --> 01:57:23.265
And if you want to book me or have a more substantive conversation about me

01:57:23.265 --> 01:57:27.085
coming to where you are in your community, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn.

01:57:27.085 --> 01:57:35.785
First name Sherice, S-H-E-R-I-C-E, J-A-N-A-Y-E, and then Nelson, N-E-L-S-O-N.

01:57:35.885 --> 01:57:38.205
But if you just Google me, you will find me.

01:57:38.705 --> 01:57:43.025
Well, Dr. Nelson, I appreciate the work that you're doing. I appreciate this book.

01:57:44.136 --> 01:57:49.196
Because it's very important, not just for Black women, but for Black men as

01:57:49.196 --> 01:57:52.616
well to understand the political dynamics of what's going on.

01:57:53.116 --> 01:57:56.936
You said this was a sequel. Say the name of the first book again.

01:57:57.696 --> 01:58:03.636
Absolutely. It's called The Congressional Black Caucus, 50 Years of Fighting for Equality.

01:58:04.096 --> 01:58:10.356
Yeah. So, you know, y'all get both books so that you can kind of get an understanding

01:58:10.356 --> 01:58:16.476
of the history and the dynamics of what it means to be a Black man or woman

01:58:16.476 --> 01:58:18.316
in the United States Congress.

01:58:18.776 --> 01:58:22.756
But Doc, again, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to do this.

01:58:22.856 --> 01:58:24.716
I've been waiting for this interview for a while.

01:58:24.896 --> 01:58:28.376
I enjoyed reading the book, so I greatly appreciate it.

01:58:29.056 --> 01:58:32.696
Thank you so much. All right, guys, and we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:58:46.008 --> 01:58:53.008
So I want to thank Dr. Adam Barsouk, Lorissa Rinehardt, and Dr.

01:58:53.628 --> 01:59:01.128
Sherice Janaye Nelson for coming on the podcast and talking about their books.

01:59:02.128 --> 01:59:06.548
Dr. Barsouk's book is called Outsmarting Cancer.

01:59:06.948 --> 01:59:16.148
And it's a very, very good book. and it just exposes you to all the different things that.

01:59:17.318 --> 01:59:24.198
We need to watch out for environmental-wise as well as our physical habits to

01:59:24.198 --> 01:59:25.978
try to minimize the risk of cancer.

01:59:26.698 --> 01:59:33.318
And, you know, while people like him and others are continuing to do the research

01:59:33.318 --> 01:59:39.318
to eventually cure us from that disease,

01:59:39.318 --> 01:59:45.878
there are some things that we can do to minimize our chances of contracting cancer.

01:59:46.138 --> 01:59:48.158
And so please get that book.

01:59:49.098 --> 01:59:52.638
My good friend, Lorissa Rinehart, she,

01:59:52.918 --> 01:59:58.818
you know, has come on and she really has been very supportive of the podcast

01:59:58.818 --> 02:00:04.978
from the time that we had talked about her coming on and been waiting on this

02:00:04.978 --> 02:00:06.418
book, Winning the Earthquake.

02:00:07.038 --> 02:00:14.058
And finally, to actually read it and to talk to her about it on the podcast

02:00:14.058 --> 02:00:16.918
was really a treat on both ends.

02:00:17.258 --> 02:00:23.218
And please follow her on the Female Body Politic on Substack.

02:00:23.458 --> 02:00:29.558
And then for Dr. Sherice Janaye Nelson, what an incredible brain.

02:00:29.798 --> 02:00:33.818
What an incredible sister. She is a fireball.

02:00:35.638 --> 02:00:39.538
And if you couldn't feel the passion in an interview, then I don't,

02:00:39.818 --> 02:00:42.898
I don't, you know, there was an old preacher friend of mine.

02:00:43.218 --> 02:00:46.238
He did a radio show for years in Jackson, Mississippi.

02:00:46.778 --> 02:00:52.558
And he always would say, sugar is sugar and salt is salt. If you can't feel what I'm

02:00:52.558 --> 02:00:53.758
saying, it ain't my fault.

02:00:54.558 --> 02:01:00.718
And that's, you know, if you can't feel what Dr. Nelson is talking about, then that's on you.

02:01:01.518 --> 02:01:07.758
Because she lays it out there very well and very articulate,

02:01:08.058 --> 02:01:13.538
very, again, passionate about what she researches and put out there.

02:01:14.843 --> 02:01:18.603
And very, very proud about the research she's done.

02:01:18.823 --> 02:01:21.443
And she should because this book,

02:01:21.603 --> 02:01:29.423
Visibly Invisible, is very much a well-researched book. Very analytical.

02:01:29.783 --> 02:01:37.983
It's not just making an emotional case as to the validity of Black women in

02:01:37.983 --> 02:01:43.383
the United States Congress, but she's got the data to back up how valuable they are.

02:01:43.383 --> 02:01:52.183
And it's a really, really powerful testimony to the effectiveness of these black

02:01:52.183 --> 02:01:57.963
women that have taken the obligation to serve.

02:01:58.243 --> 02:02:04.243
So please go get all three of those books and support these authors,

02:02:04.523 --> 02:02:05.783
support the work that they're doing.

02:02:06.283 --> 02:02:13.403
And I look forward to all three of them. Um, Lorissa has already led the way,

02:02:13.443 --> 02:02:19.463
but I look forward to all three of them coming back on the podcast and in their future.

02:02:21.603 --> 02:02:25.863
So what do I want to close out with? What is on my mind?

02:02:27.523 --> 02:02:33.203
So, as you know, in politics, we, you know, those of us who have had the privilege

02:02:33.203 --> 02:02:39.163
of being elected, especially in deliberative bodies like state legislatures or even Congress.

02:02:39.783 --> 02:02:46.063
We have developed relationships with people from the other side, right?

02:02:46.403 --> 02:02:57.383
And until 2015, you tolerated some things and you called BS on some things and all that.

02:02:57.583 --> 02:03:07.023
But it was all in the spirit of healthy debate and just people being human and

02:03:07.023 --> 02:03:10.543
expressing their opinions about things.

02:03:12.269 --> 02:03:18.409
Know, and well, I shouldn't say 2015, I should say, you know,

02:03:19.429 --> 02:03:23.469
turn of the century, I guess, because, you know, when Fox News came on,

02:03:23.689 --> 02:03:26.369
and then CNN was trying to match that energy,

02:03:26.689 --> 02:03:31.389
you know, the political discourse went into disarray at that point,

02:03:31.569 --> 02:03:39.469
and, you know, by 2015, it reached such a level that we've elected Donald Trump as president.

02:03:41.184 --> 02:03:49.004
So, you know, but it's really, really, really has been a push to the lowest

02:03:49.004 --> 02:03:52.384
common denominator over the last 11 years.

02:03:52.824 --> 02:03:57.724
You know, so, but you're used, what I'm trying to say is you're used to debating

02:03:57.724 --> 02:04:00.424
people who have different viewpoints.

02:04:01.444 --> 02:04:08.344
And, you know, but it's like it's gotten to a level now where whereas prior

02:04:08.344 --> 02:04:13.644
to all this, you were having intelligent discussions and disagreements and now

02:04:13.644 --> 02:04:15.844
it's just flat out ridiculous. Right.

02:04:17.584 --> 02:04:26.144
So the thing that kind of got me stirred up is somebody I considered a friend.

02:04:26.744 --> 02:04:30.944
You know, I've been, you know, we follow each other on Facebook.

02:04:31.384 --> 02:04:36.424
And I've been watching some of the commentary he has, especially when the administration

02:04:36.424 --> 02:04:39.144
throws out something crazy or does something crazy.

02:04:39.144 --> 02:04:49.204
And how he goes full bear into defending that or being outraged by their claims or whatever.

02:04:50.224 --> 02:04:54.464
And, you know, a couple of times I kind of like checked him on it.

02:04:55.664 --> 02:04:58.904
And, you know, of course, he didn't really appreciate that.

02:04:59.084 --> 02:05:04.504
But, you know, it's just kind of like I'm just trying to figure out what happened.

02:05:05.044 --> 02:05:11.124
When did you drink that Kool-Aid? When did you buy into this silliness? Right.

02:05:11.484 --> 02:05:17.204
And so he made a post right after the Justice Department decided they wanted

02:05:17.204 --> 02:05:22.284
to indict the Southern Poverty Law Center.

02:05:23.710 --> 02:05:32.270
For fraud. And if you're not, you know, Grace mentioned it in the in the moment of news.

02:05:32.270 --> 02:05:35.730
But what it is is that the Justice

02:05:35.730 --> 02:05:39.830
Department is saying that the

02:05:39.830 --> 02:05:56.070
SPLC defrauded their donors by using money to pay informants to infiltrate these hate organizations.

02:05:56.750 --> 02:06:00.830
And they're even going to the extreme that they're saying that they pay these

02:06:00.830 --> 02:06:07.670
folks to create hateful situations, I don't know, I guess, to benefit the organization.

02:06:07.990 --> 02:06:13.490
You know, I'm still trying to understand the motive, right?

02:06:13.930 --> 02:06:19.570
You know, they're basically saying that these folks gave money to people to

02:06:19.570 --> 02:06:26.650
stir up stuff to, I guess, justify their existence. I don't know what the motivation would be.

02:06:27.370 --> 02:06:29.450
And, you know, cause their whole

02:06:29.450 --> 02:06:35.050
agenda is to get rid of all of these organizations, period. But, but.

02:06:36.152 --> 02:06:41.112
You know, the reality is, is that the Southern Apartment Law Center has gone

02:06:41.112 --> 02:06:52.832
after organizations like the Proud Boys and the Three Percenters or whatever they are to,

02:06:52.852 --> 02:06:53.952
you know,

02:06:54.092 --> 02:06:57.472
any other hate group that support the president.

02:06:57.752 --> 02:07:01.092
Right. And they're going after them just like any other group.

02:07:01.652 --> 02:07:05.932
And so I guess this is their way to try to silence them.

02:07:06.152 --> 02:07:10.572
And it shut them down or put a cloud over them, right?

02:07:10.932 --> 02:07:17.912
And so, you know, I don't know if people are familiar with how certain things

02:07:17.912 --> 02:07:20.392
work, but it's like, you know,

02:07:20.492 --> 02:07:27.972
when people say that they've seen the light and they're trying to expose these

02:07:27.972 --> 02:07:30.692
different groups, these people take risks.

02:07:32.075 --> 02:07:40.515
If money has been exchanged, it's for those folks to be able to maybe get out of situations.

02:07:42.635 --> 02:07:49.595
Or make sure that, you know, they're taken care of if they have to get out of the situation, right?

02:07:49.955 --> 02:07:57.295
I mean, whatever arrangements organizations like SPLC has with informants, that's on them, Right.

02:07:57.975 --> 02:08:03.835
But the overwhelming bulk of the money for organizations like that is to file

02:08:03.835 --> 02:08:09.575
lawsuits, because when you go to federal court, like they're going to have to

02:08:09.575 --> 02:08:11.875
go to federal court now to fight this indictment.

02:08:12.735 --> 02:08:17.535
Federal courts are the most expensive courts in America. The filing fees are

02:08:17.535 --> 02:08:24.395
higher, the demand on research and all that stuff, that costs money to do all that.

02:08:24.515 --> 02:08:31.075
And so that's why they ask for donations in order to supplement because they

02:08:31.075 --> 02:08:36.655
don't have, you know, contrary to popular belief, some benevolent billionaire

02:08:36.655 --> 02:08:38.715
just financing the whole operation.

02:08:38.715 --> 02:08:44.735
They have to get donations from people like you and I to fight to get fight.

02:08:45.915 --> 02:08:57.055
And so I guess the strategy is to discredit them in a way where they won't get as much money. Right.

02:08:57.895 --> 02:09:04.555
And so, you know, this guy, you know, wrote a piece on Facebook and was talking

02:09:04.555 --> 02:09:09.735
about all they they're the ones who started the thing in Charlottesville where

02:09:09.735 --> 02:09:12.175
the young lady got killed and this, that, and other.

02:09:14.535 --> 02:09:15.635
And I'm like.

02:09:17.085 --> 02:09:27.525
Know, that's the dumbest thing to even concede, let alone believe, right?

02:09:27.905 --> 02:09:34.545
That an organization wants to, that that's fighting hate groups,

02:09:34.945 --> 02:09:40.405
wants to stage something that ended up killing two people.

02:09:40.805 --> 02:09:45.505
Because we talk about the young lady who died, but there was an actual state

02:09:45.505 --> 02:09:50.965
trooper from Virginia, a state police officer, that died too.

02:09:52.425 --> 02:09:53.005
And so,

02:09:54.436 --> 02:10:01.556
That's just crazy talk. And, you know, I was working for the ACLU at that time.

02:10:02.516 --> 02:10:11.816
And we were on kind of a guilt trip because the ACLU in Virginia fought for

02:10:11.816 --> 02:10:13.416
these people to get the permit.

02:10:13.656 --> 02:10:18.556
Initially, the city did not want them to have this rally or parade or wherever

02:10:18.556 --> 02:10:24.656
it was. And the ACLU stepped in and said, well, look, these people have the right to free speech.

02:10:25.376 --> 02:10:31.216
You shouldn't deny them. And so that was part of a thing where we were dealing

02:10:31.216 --> 02:10:36.956
with internally that, you know, we had to have a conversation about it.

02:10:36.956 --> 02:10:39.896
Because it was like, you know,

02:10:40.096 --> 02:10:46.076
the people in the Virginia office, they were distraught because,

02:10:46.076 --> 02:10:50.536
you know, they fought for these people to have the right to do this,

02:10:50.656 --> 02:10:52.596
and then people died, right?

02:10:53.676 --> 02:11:00.876
So that's the dilemma that these groups have, is that they're trying to uphold

02:11:00.876 --> 02:11:03.236
the Constitution in the most honorable way.

02:11:04.596 --> 02:11:11.256
And when people abuse that privilege, the guilt falls on them because they defended

02:11:11.256 --> 02:11:14.616
their rights to do that, right?

02:11:15.256 --> 02:11:19.796
And, you know, if anything, the Southern Poverty Law Center.

02:11:21.434 --> 02:11:27.894
If they were coming into that, they were going to be in the part to deal with

02:11:27.894 --> 02:11:31.774
the lawsuits on the deaths,

02:11:32.594 --> 02:11:40.774
the wrongful death lawsuits, and try to push for, on the civil end,

02:11:40.974 --> 02:11:46.774
and try to push for as advocates for criminal charges on these people for doing it.

02:11:46.774 --> 02:11:55.114
So to believe that these people wanted that to happen and they paid for people to do that,

02:11:55.654 --> 02:12:02.894
the term that people say legally or professionally is, that's a reach.

02:12:04.414 --> 02:12:10.794
But that's just dumb shit to believe that these folks want to do that.

02:12:10.794 --> 02:12:15.094
And just the fact that you would come out and agree with that,

02:12:15.174 --> 02:12:17.434
and you've been an elected official before,

02:12:17.814 --> 02:12:24.874
you've seen how things can be manipulated on your side and on the other side,

02:12:25.214 --> 02:12:31.614
for you to just say and buy into that with your whole chest without any level of skepticism is.

02:12:33.236 --> 02:12:37.736
It kind of tells me a lot about who you are, and that's what makes it hard for

02:12:37.736 --> 02:12:41.756
people in this day and age to reconcile with each other.

02:12:42.256 --> 02:12:48.376
You know, it shows me that you had a disdain for this organization and you would

02:12:48.376 --> 02:12:52.556
believe anything negative that they would say about them, even though you knew

02:12:52.556 --> 02:12:56.936
a lot of people that were involved with the organization that you claim were friends.

02:12:59.216 --> 02:13:05.156
It tells me that you have this incredibly dark side that would believe that

02:13:05.156 --> 02:13:09.016
that's, you know, even achievable, right?

02:13:09.416 --> 02:13:14.496
I mean, human beings surprise us every day, but, you know.

02:13:16.676 --> 02:13:21.776
This was the organization that basically bankrupted the Ku Klux Klan,

02:13:22.916 --> 02:13:30.836
You know, serving as the attorneys for the young lady, the mother in Alabama who fought them.

02:13:31.716 --> 02:13:38.376
And that's how they came to fame is like this is the organization that Julian Bond started.

02:13:39.889 --> 02:13:46.509
And for this administration to go after them should automatically,

02:13:46.589 --> 02:13:50.429
automatically raise a red flag,

02:13:50.589 --> 02:13:58.149
especially at this particular moment in history when they are trying every way,

02:13:58.389 --> 02:14:02.169
shape, and form to validate themselves,

02:14:02.809 --> 02:14:09.189
validate this incompetence, validate this ignorance, validate this vitriol, right?

02:14:09.889 --> 02:14:14.109
So, you know, that's the challenge that we are in right now,

02:14:14.449 --> 02:14:20.689
that we have people who have just bought into it.

02:14:21.169 --> 02:14:27.749
And for somebody that doesn't have any kind of religious background,

02:14:28.089 --> 02:14:34.229
whether by choice or by omission, it's really kind of hard to understand it.

02:14:34.229 --> 02:14:39.709
You know, for those of us that do, we understand that there are supernatural

02:14:39.709 --> 02:14:48.709
forces in play and there are some weapons that we have to utilize better to to negate it.

02:14:49.049 --> 02:14:54.329
I think that we haven't done enough in utilizing our supernatural tools.

02:14:54.689 --> 02:14:58.289
We haven't done enough to hone our discernment.

02:14:58.809 --> 02:15:02.529
To avoid this to happen.

02:15:03.169 --> 02:15:07.689
And so we have to be accountable for that on our deal.

02:15:07.889 --> 02:15:12.849
But as far as for the folks that don't believe or, you know,

02:15:12.909 --> 02:15:18.929
agnostic or whatever about that concept, you have to really,

02:15:19.089 --> 02:15:22.849
really understand what's happening.

02:15:22.849 --> 02:15:29.129
You have to get into, if you want to express a public opinion about it, right.

02:15:30.109 --> 02:15:34.589
Then you need to kind of do a little research and understand,

02:15:34.589 --> 02:15:40.829
is that really feasible, if that's really believable, if you just accept the

02:15:40.829 --> 02:15:43.329
first thing that somebody says, right?

02:15:44.300 --> 02:15:50.320
Vulnerable. You're vulnerable to be misled. And in this society where we want

02:15:50.320 --> 02:15:54.540
everything instant, I guess we think knowledge is supposed to be instant too.

02:15:55.120 --> 02:16:02.540
And we don't do our research and we don't do our due diligence to find out what's really going on.

02:16:03.260 --> 02:16:08.200
We're laser focused on what you're presenting us instead of looking at the big

02:16:08.200 --> 02:16:13.580
picture and understanding why is that being and presented to me at this time, right?

02:16:16.240 --> 02:16:22.060
So let me just say this. There's going to have to be a reckoning for all of

02:16:22.060 --> 02:16:23.580
the damage that's being done.

02:16:24.360 --> 02:16:28.640
You know, a lot of people will just say, well, we got them out and now we got

02:16:28.640 --> 02:16:29.980
to fix the country and all that.

02:16:30.360 --> 02:16:34.500
No, there's going to have to be some payback in that, right?

02:16:35.780 --> 02:16:39.880
Because they're taking, they're destroying institutions, they're taking money,

02:16:39.880 --> 02:16:48.380
you know, and they're creating this wedge in society that we're going to have to break down.

02:16:48.520 --> 02:16:54.180
Because once the wedge is removed, the breach is still going to be there, you know.

02:16:54.480 --> 02:17:01.780
And so first we have to remove the wedge and then we have to repair the breach, right?

02:17:03.320 --> 02:17:11.220
So that's going to take some time. Now, the encouraging thing is what happened in Virginia recently.

02:17:11.820 --> 02:17:18.200
And that is the fact that the citizens there, the majority of them made a decision

02:17:18.200 --> 02:17:23.760
to allow the state legislature to redistrict. Right.

02:17:24.649 --> 02:17:27.449
Of course, the Republicans are upset. They're like going, oh,

02:17:27.589 --> 02:17:29.589
well, they shouldn't be doing this and blah, blah.

02:17:29.809 --> 02:17:33.369
It's like, y'all do know y'all the ones who started that, right?

02:17:34.189 --> 02:17:38.229
It's President Trump that called Governor Abbott in Texas and said,

02:17:38.449 --> 02:17:42.869
I need five more congressional seats out of the state of Texas.

02:17:43.509 --> 02:17:47.769
And you make that happen. And he called a special session and they did it.

02:17:48.469 --> 02:17:52.809
And then Governor Newsom in California said, well, if you're going to do that

02:17:52.809 --> 02:17:55.669
in Texas, then we're going to do it in California.

02:17:56.409 --> 02:18:03.929
Now, the difference was in California was that the legislature created a referendum

02:18:03.929 --> 02:18:08.589
when they called a special session and it got on the ballot.

02:18:08.829 --> 02:18:12.429
And the majority of the people in California said, yeah, go ahead and do that.

02:18:12.589 --> 02:18:15.609
If they're going to do that in Texas, then we need to do this in California.

02:18:17.122 --> 02:18:21.402
So other states have decided to follow the Texas model.

02:18:21.582 --> 02:18:26.602
And so Virginia said, oh, so y'all still going to try this after what California did.

02:18:27.002 --> 02:18:30.962
OK, so they went through the process. They called a special session.

02:18:31.302 --> 02:18:33.942
They went through the process, got the amendment.

02:18:34.642 --> 02:18:39.082
Some judge in the southwestern part of Virginia said, no, you can't do that.

02:18:39.222 --> 02:18:41.422
And the Supreme Court in Virginia said, yeah, they can.

02:18:42.182 --> 02:18:47.142
And the voters voted. it. So now that same judge down in the southwestern part

02:18:47.142 --> 02:18:53.122
of Virginia is saying, well, now we don't care what the people say. They can't do that.

02:18:53.662 --> 02:18:56.722
So now they got to go back to the Virginia Supreme Court.

02:18:56.862 --> 02:19:00.622
And I'll be surprised if Virginia Supreme Court upholds this judge's decision

02:19:00.622 --> 02:19:04.882
this time, because basically the arguments he made the first time,

02:19:05.002 --> 02:19:07.402
they shut that down. He's using the same arguments.

02:19:07.962 --> 02:19:12.522
It's just that the result turned out the way they feared it was going to turn

02:19:12.522 --> 02:19:14.702
out and And that the majority of people were going to say, no,

02:19:14.982 --> 02:19:20.682
if bottom line is, if you're going to cheat, then we're going to cheat now for

02:19:20.682 --> 02:19:25.782
the long term in a democratic process. We should not be doing that.

02:19:26.362 --> 02:19:29.822
But it's just gotten to a point where it's like.

02:19:31.373 --> 02:19:34.913
Past, the Democrats have always tried to say, well, you know,

02:19:35.053 --> 02:19:36.413
we're not going to stoop to that level.

02:19:36.553 --> 02:19:40.413
We're just going to beat them fair and square. They're not playing fair and square.

02:19:41.333 --> 02:19:46.733
Then, you know, Katie barred the door. It's, it's all the rules are gone at that point.

02:19:47.013 --> 02:19:49.833
If they're going to be allowed to cheat, it's just like playing a sport.

02:19:50.293 --> 02:19:55.373
If you're playing basketball and, and one team is allowed to foul,

02:19:55.533 --> 02:19:59.233
you know, just to beat you up and not get any fouls called.

02:20:00.093 --> 02:20:03.833
You know, at some point in order to get the ref's attention,

02:20:04.093 --> 02:20:05.933
you're going to have to commit some fouls.

02:20:06.233 --> 02:20:11.473
And you're going to say, if you're going to call it on us, then you need to call it on them, right?

02:20:11.953 --> 02:20:17.313
And that's why coaches get thrown out on technical fouls because they're making that case, right?

02:20:17.513 --> 02:20:21.613
If the rules are going to be equally applied, then we ain't got no problem.

02:20:21.653 --> 02:20:26.273
But if you're going to favor one group over another, then we're going to protest that.

02:20:27.053 --> 02:20:31.953
In baseball, there's actually a situation where you can protest the game.

02:20:32.173 --> 02:20:39.113
If there was a call so egregious, this was before replay and the automatic balls

02:20:39.113 --> 02:20:40.793
and strike system, all that stuff, right?

02:20:41.493 --> 02:20:52.693
But if there was a call that was so egregious that you felt that it changed the game,

02:20:52.693 --> 02:20:57.293
it altered your ability to win, you could literally walk up to the umpire and say,

02:20:57.513 --> 02:21:01.273
we are playing the remainder of this game under protest, right?

02:21:01.833 --> 02:21:06.733
And then the league would review it. Now, most of the time, the league stood

02:21:06.733 --> 02:21:10.373
behind the umpires, but every now and then, you'd say,

02:21:10.673 --> 02:21:15.573
yeah, and then, you know, they wouldn't, they would say you might need to replay

02:21:15.573 --> 02:21:20.073
the game instead of changing who won, right?

02:21:20.613 --> 02:21:23.313
They would just throw that game out and you'd have to replay it.

02:21:23.313 --> 02:21:27.753
Like I said, it's very rare that it happens, but there's a system in place where

02:21:27.753 --> 02:21:33.333
you can say, we're playing the rest of this game under protest to force the

02:21:33.333 --> 02:21:35.593
league to review what happened, right?

02:21:38.079 --> 02:21:44.539
So what I'm saying to you is it's not an ideal situation that states are during,

02:21:44.539 --> 02:21:51.819
you know, midterm, you know, are in between the census is trying to alter,

02:21:52.259 --> 02:21:55.239
you know, redistrict and gerrymander and all that stuff.

02:21:55.659 --> 02:21:59.339
Gerrymander, I think, is actually a proper term since the guy's name was Gary

02:21:59.339 --> 02:22:02.619
in Massachusetts who first did this.

02:22:03.819 --> 02:22:08.959
You know, you can't, it's not something that is being encouraged,

02:22:08.959 --> 02:22:16.599
but if we're going to protect, then we're going to have to fight.

02:22:18.123 --> 02:22:23.963
Just take punches, take punches, take punches. I had to fight back.

02:22:24.903 --> 02:22:30.183
And most fights are not pretty. War is definitely not pretty.

02:22:30.563 --> 02:22:38.363
And so, you know, while I'm not an encourager of that,

02:22:38.623 --> 02:22:41.703
even though I'm guilty of participating in it,

02:22:41.843 --> 02:22:45.943
because I was in a legislature during a redistricting,

02:22:45.943 --> 02:22:49.283
and the Democrats were in charge

02:22:49.283 --> 02:22:57.243
and we didn't necessarily make it to the advantage of a particular party,

02:22:57.863 --> 02:23:01.303
but we did target some people to make

02:23:01.303 --> 02:23:05.083
sure they wouldn't come back in the legislature. We did do that, right?

02:23:05.803 --> 02:23:11.023
So I'm just as guilty as anybody else that's ever served in a redistricting

02:23:11.023 --> 02:23:15.763
state that doesn't have an independent commission, right? If the legislature

02:23:15.763 --> 02:23:18.023
is given the sole responsibility to do it.

02:23:18.763 --> 02:23:21.983
So, you know, that's the perspective I come from.

02:23:22.323 --> 02:23:26.143
I don't think we should wholesale be doing that kind of stuff.

02:23:26.323 --> 02:23:30.423
I mean, we've drawn districts to try to protect.

02:23:31.203 --> 02:23:37.343
We had in Mississippi, when I first got elected, we had five congressional districts

02:23:37.343 --> 02:23:39.023
and then we got knocked down to four.

02:23:39.643 --> 02:23:43.283
So it was a big fight. We had two Democrats and three Republicans,

02:23:43.503 --> 02:23:47.303
and we were trying to—well, actually, we had three Democrats.

02:23:47.963 --> 02:23:54.623
Yeah, we had three Democrats and two Republicans, and then one of the Democrats

02:23:54.623 --> 02:23:56.963
didn't run. I think a Republican got that.

02:23:57.103 --> 02:24:01.263
And then when we lost the congressional seat due to reapportionment,

02:24:01.383 --> 02:24:04.983
we were trying to keep it at 2-2.

02:24:06.963 --> 02:24:12.723
And so we had a plan to try to make it 2-2. Republicans had a plan to make it 3-1 and,

02:24:14.170 --> 02:24:18.890
one to this day, right? And, you know, and throughout history,

02:24:19.170 --> 02:24:22.890
they tried to, because they knew where the population, where were black folks,

02:24:23.010 --> 02:24:27.850
they used to draw the lines to try to minimize black representation.

02:24:28.610 --> 02:24:35.350
And for a long time, until 1986, you didn't have a black person in Congress,

02:24:35.930 --> 02:24:37.970
right? Representing the state of Mississippi.

02:24:38.490 --> 02:24:48.130
So, you know, it's It's the best thing is not to have partisan gerrymandering at all.

02:24:48.430 --> 02:24:59.930
The best thing is to have a neutral commission or computer program to draw the districts, right?

02:25:00.490 --> 02:25:05.390
You know, you had to program information like where does the current legislator

02:25:05.390 --> 02:25:09.550
live to give them a chance if they want to run for reelection, that kind of stuff.

02:25:10.870 --> 02:25:16.250
Population. You have to put in the correct data to make it work,

02:25:16.250 --> 02:25:23.010
but you could have a computer program that'll spit out a fair map.

02:25:23.930 --> 02:25:29.870
And if a computer spits it out and more Republicans get elected to Democrats, it is what it is.

02:25:30.030 --> 02:25:32.410
If it's vice versa, it is what it is, right?

02:25:32.990 --> 02:25:37.950
But the district should be decided on who's the best representative for that

02:25:37.950 --> 02:25:41.710
particular area, not what party they're in.

02:25:42.510 --> 02:25:46.490
Again, that might be Pollyannish, but that's the way it's supposed to go.

02:25:47.750 --> 02:25:52.010
So, you know, the fact that the people in Virginia made that decision.

02:25:53.870 --> 02:26:02.470
To engage in the fight, to make sure that it's not skewed in the president's

02:26:02.470 --> 02:26:04.450
favor as far as Congress is concerned.

02:26:04.590 --> 02:26:06.270
The only reason, his only motivation

02:26:06.270 --> 02:26:10.830
is, well, if the Democrats get in charge, I want to be impeached.

02:26:11.990 --> 02:26:18.570
Well, you know, I mean, if you would stop doing stuff to to warrant an impeachment,

02:26:18.970 --> 02:26:20.490
then you wouldn't have to worry about that.

02:26:21.390 --> 02:26:25.070
Nonetheless, You know, it's all about self-interest for him.

02:26:25.210 --> 02:26:30.010
And we got people like the guy I was talking about. That's all for that.

02:26:30.670 --> 02:26:35.170
And I just keep, I guess the thing that just keeps irking me,

02:26:35.690 --> 02:26:42.330
although I do understand what's really happening, is the defense of the indefensible.

02:26:43.896 --> 02:26:48.936
What really chaps my heart about all of this. How do you constantly twist your

02:26:48.936 --> 02:26:52.576
conscience in a pretzel to defend the indefensible?

02:26:53.036 --> 02:26:57.596
If you've been an elected official, you've taken an oath to uphold the Constitution

02:26:57.596 --> 02:27:00.116
of the United States of America.

02:27:00.516 --> 02:27:07.756
If you're a local official, the state constitution and the laws thereof, right?

02:27:08.516 --> 02:27:13.096
And it seems like if you're not that elected official anymore,

02:27:13.116 --> 02:27:15.256
you've just discarded that oath.

02:27:15.836 --> 02:27:17.856
It's like that oath just went away.

02:27:18.516 --> 02:27:22.176
And what you don't understand is that once you swear an oath,

02:27:22.356 --> 02:27:24.656
then that's your allegiance for life.

02:27:25.136 --> 02:27:28.676
As long as you're breathing, that's an oath you took.

02:27:29.296 --> 02:27:33.956
And you have to uphold that. I don't think people really understand it.

02:27:34.176 --> 02:27:39.156
When you swear or affirm that you're going to uphold the Constitution of the

02:27:39.156 --> 02:27:44.316
United States at any point in your life, then that's your lifetime commitment.

02:27:45.056 --> 02:27:49.376
If you swear to uphold the Constitution, I don't even live in Mississippi anymore,

02:27:49.376 --> 02:27:54.676
but my oath was to uphold it. That's for life.

02:27:56.319 --> 02:28:03.619
For some crazy reason, well, technically, I've taken an oath with being a deputy sheriff.

02:28:04.199 --> 02:28:09.299
Because when you take that oath to be a deputy, you have to swear an oath to

02:28:09.299 --> 02:28:12.999
the Constitution of the state of Georgia and the laws thereof.

02:28:13.359 --> 02:28:16.099
Because you're upholding the law.

02:28:16.699 --> 02:28:20.319
You're part of the executive branch of government, law enforcement.

02:28:20.319 --> 02:28:26.339
And so, yeah, I'm obligated to follow that for the rest of my life.

02:28:26.879 --> 02:28:31.059
But some people think once they're out of public service, then they don't have to do that anymore.

02:28:31.199 --> 02:28:34.579
That was just when I was serving. That doesn't matter now.

02:28:34.659 --> 02:28:40.179
No, it matters because you swore before God that you were going to do that, right?

02:28:41.819 --> 02:28:46.939
There was nothing that said this oath expires when your term is up.

02:28:47.519 --> 02:28:50.879
There's no disclaimer at that. But so, you know,

02:28:51.539 --> 02:28:58.679
just food for thought for all you folks that are out here defending people violating

02:28:58.679 --> 02:29:03.379
the Constitution on a daily basis, violating the law on a daily basis.

02:29:03.719 --> 02:29:09.319
Just remember, you took an oath to uphold it, and now you're violating that

02:29:09.319 --> 02:29:12.179
oath by defending the indefensible.

02:29:13.659 --> 02:29:18.639
Right. So anyway, I just I just wanted to get that off my chest.

02:29:19.239 --> 02:29:24.659
I just don't understand it, but I have hope based on what happened in Virginia,

02:29:24.839 --> 02:29:30.099
what's been happening at the No Kings rallies and different protests and all

02:29:30.099 --> 02:29:32.659
that stuff that we're going to fix this.

02:29:34.283 --> 02:29:42.003
But we got to keep our voices loud and we got to continue to fight for what we believe in.

02:29:43.523 --> 02:29:51.043
And maybe, just maybe, the system has broken enough that when we fix it,

02:29:51.343 --> 02:29:53.863
it'll be better than it ever was.

02:29:54.623 --> 02:30:00.943
That's my hope. And I pray that those of you listening agree with that.

02:30:01.663 --> 02:30:06.403
All right, guys, it's time for me to go. Thank y'all for listening. Until next time.