Fall If You Will, But Rise You Must Featuring Samuel Ashworth and Dr. Ted Williams III

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Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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this moment a movement thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time

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i hope you enjoy this episode as well,

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the following program is hosted by the nbg podcast network.

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Music.

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Hello. I'm Welcome to Another Moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

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And today we've got a great show. I've got two men coming on,

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one who has written a fascinating book.

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Yes, another fiction book. Yeah, it's getting to be a trend now, but that's okay.

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It's all right. I'm enjoying it, and I hope that you're enjoying it as well.

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But we decided with this interview, because the book is not a political book,

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but we decided to have some fun with it anyway.

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And he has some political opinions.

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Not too political, but you'll feel it when you hear his interview.

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And then my other guest is a true Renaissance man.

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And he's a Chicago Bears fan. So he's already a hero in my book, right?

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So I hope that y'all will enjoy these guests and the serious discussions that

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they're going to address.

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And support what they do. They will make their plugs during the interview and...

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You know, do the best you can, not just with the guests today,

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but any guests that you've heard on the podcast, make sure that you support their endeavors.

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And we are still looking for 20,000 subscribers on Patreon.

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So speaking about support, I need y'all to support our podcast.

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And as always, I greatly appreciate those of y'all who listen.

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And I really hope that you appreciate the content that we're putting out there.

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This is not an easy time. You've heard me say that before, and you are experiencing it.

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A lot of y'all are upset. It was just a poll that came out that said that 57%

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of the American people feel that the president is a little erratic when it comes

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to dealing with these trades,

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tariffs and all that stuff.

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And I've got some information on tariffs too that I hope that y'all aggressively appreciate.

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That was brought in by a past contributor of this podcast.

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So, you know, we really want you all to get engaged and get involved And I've

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got some commentary at the end that is pretty painful to me,

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but I feel as though I need to say it.

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So I want y'all to listen to the podcast and listen all the way through to that

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because I think it's very, very important where we are right now.

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So I hope that whetted your appetite a little bit. And now we're going to go

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ahead and get this program started. And as always, we started off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Music.

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A measles outbreak in Texas and New Mexico has infected 256 people.

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New Mexico reported its first measles-related death in over 40 years,

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involving an unvaccinated adult linked to an outbreak of cases in Lee County.

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A federal judge ordered six U.S. agencies to reinstate thousands of probationary

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employees fired during Trump's federal workforce purge.

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The U.S. Secret Service shocked and hospitalized an armed man from Indiana near

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the White House during a confrontation.

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The Republican-led House passed a stopgap funding bill to prevent a partial government shutdown.

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House Republicans also blocked legislative challenges to Trump's controversial tariffs.

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Three individuals faced charges including manslaughter and hazing in the death

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of Southern University student Caleb Wilson during an off-campus fraternity ritual.

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A U.S. judge prevented the deportation of Columbia University Palestinian activist

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Mahmoud Khalil following his arrest under Trump's protest crackdown.

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The National Labor Relations Board has reversed its stance on job protection

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for appointees, despite recent court rulings blocking such dismissals.

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A federal judge ruled that President Trump cannot remove Democratic member Susan

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Sui Grundman from the Federal Labor Relations Authority.

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A former U.S. Solicitor General recommended dismissing the DOJ's corruption

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case against New York City Mayor Eric Adams with prejudice.

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A U.S. judge blocked parts of Trump's executive order targeting the law firm

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Perkins Coie, which was based on its diversity policies and past work for Hillary Clinton.

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U.N. officials warned that escalating violence and political arrests in South

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Sudan jeopardized its 2018 peace deal.

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South Carolina executed a convicted murderer by firing squad for the first time in 15 years.

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And Robert G. Clark Jr., 96, the first black Mississippi lawmaker elected since

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Reconstruction, was laid to rest in his hometown of Lexington.

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I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.

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Now, it is time for my guest, Samuel Ashworth.

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Samuel Ashworth is a professor of creative writing at George Washington University

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and a former columnist at The Rumpus. His fiction and nonfiction have appeared

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in the Washington Post magazine, Long Reads, Eater, and Gawker.

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A native New Yorker, he now lives with his wife and two sons in Washington, D.C.

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A two-time ghostwriter, The Death and Life of August Sweeney is his first novel.

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And we're going to be talking about that in the interview.

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And I think you're going to like how we get into it. So, ladies and gentlemen,

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it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast, Samuel Ashworth.

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Music.

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All right. Samuel Ashworth. How are you doing, Professor? You doing good?

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I'm doing great. I am glad to be here.

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Well, I am honored to have you on, too. And we're going to talk about your book that's coming up.

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And the name of the book, ladies and gentlemen, is called The Death and Life of August Sweeney.

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And I understand this is your first novel, but but you've been involved in the

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creative process, primarily trying to teach people how to be creative.

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So and we'll we'll dive into that a little bit as we get on with the interview.

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But I do some icebreakers to kind of get the conversation started.

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So the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to.

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Now, I'll give you a hint. And sometimes I don't give a hint about who the quote

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comes from, but you had a quote in your book from James Joyce.

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I'm not using that quote from James Joyce, but I'm going to use another one.

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It says, fall if you will, but rise you must.

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What does that quote mean to you? And none so soon shall the mound for the earth

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come to a set down secular phoenix.

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The oaks of old they lie in peat yet elms leap where ask is lay i can't believe

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you like you nailed it that's from fitting its wake and i feel like you wow you sort of,

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tapped into the deepest root that this book has i think i came up as a joyce

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guy like From the time I was 15, I, like, lacked onto him.

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And when there was one line in particular, from the very beginning of Fitting

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Its Wake, that line, the oaks of old, they lie in peat, yet elms leap where

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ash could ask his lay. He means ashes, but he says ask his.

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And that idea of death and rebirth, of decay and growth, it just lodged in my

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head like sand in an oyster shell.

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The idea, Finnegan's Wake is all about the cycle of death in reverse.

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He creates this cycle. And I'm so sorry. I absolutely did not mean to nerd out about Finnegan's Wake.

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That's okay. On the show. That's how you started it. And you may not have known

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this was a thing for me, but it is.

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Because we can live and die in ways in books we cannot in our lives.

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But if we can do it in books we can

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do it in our imagination and we can

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transform our relationship with these things we can deepen them we can go to

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places we we otherwise can't imagine and so everything about the death and life

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of august sweeney is about that cycle of growth and decay And that sounds very like, it's not,

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it sounds very woo woo coming from me, but like, I wanted to write a book that

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would transform the reader's relationship with death and my own and transform

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our relationship with our bodies.

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And if anything, the hardest thing I had to do was keep James Joyce out of it

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because that's such a part of his books.

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And so that's why he's the epigraph and I cut him out of everywhere else.

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But now you go bringing it back well yeah

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well that's good because it you know that that gets

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us you know that that kind of gives

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the origins story as far as where you were at in trying to put this book together

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oh and there's one other thing too wait there's one other thing sorry that would

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what you quoted fall if you but will rise you must he doesn't spell it fall

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f-a-l-l he spells it p-h-a-l-l,

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okay it's a it's a dick joke oh I got you oh it's you but will it's fallis of

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you but rise you must and that that.

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Energy, that sort of that graphic rippled sexual energy is also absolutely at

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the core of the whole book.

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Yeah. All right. So let me get to this other icebreaker that I normally do,

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and it's called 20 questions.

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So what I need you to do is give me a number between one and 20.

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11. All right. And that seems to be a popular number, by the way.

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Where do you go to check a fact that you see,

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hear or read to check

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a fact that i see hear or read well depends where i saw heard or read it if

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because there was a huge amount of of research that went into this book especially

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anatomical i'm not a doctor i'm not

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there's every pre-man i'm a terrible scientist so i had to teach myself,

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autopsy pathology and anatomy in general so i for that i really really i had

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a textbook i basically started working at a university library at a university

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so that I could have access to the library so that I could get textbooks.

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So if it's coming from a textbook, I'll take it.

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If I hear it somewhere else, I will almost always try to run it down to the

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source, which usually if it's a scientific study, I'm going to go read the scientific study.

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And that's become definitely important because I've done a lot of writing about

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autopsies, which aren't incredibly well studied.

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There isn't an overwhelming amount of data on frequency, price, etc.

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So if I'm publishing something, I have a piece coming in The Atlantic next week

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about why everything television has taught you about the autopsy is wrong.

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Doing the fact-checking for that was exceptionally hard because I have numbers

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that were fact-checked five years ago that may have evolved,

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but there aren't hard numbers right now.

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But yeah, I try to go as close to the source as I possibly can.

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And then, especially if I'm outside of my expertise, as I was for half this

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book, I have secondary readers.

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I had a pathologist read this book. I had an oncologist read this book.

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I had a bunch of restaurant professionals read the book and flag anything that

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that bumped for them as exaggerated or false.

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So so give the audience kind of a summary of what the death and life of August Sweeney is about.

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So there's the log line, which is heart cell, as it turned out.

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It's a book about the rise and fall and redemption of iconic celebrity chef

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Hold through his autopsy at the hands of a woman whom he mysteriously handpicked for the job.

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She doesn't know. She's been handpicked. She doesn't even know who this man is at first.

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But as we discover quickly, he asked for her and takes her a long time to figure out why.

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But what's more important is that he set this whole thing up knowing full well he was going to die.

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His death is not exactly a surprise.

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And how it happened isn't really a mystery. This is not a murder mystery.

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This is a guy drops dead on the line.

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In his restaurant that was supposed to be his comeback. But if you ask me sort

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of what the book is about,

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like the real log line I like to use is there's a line in the book where the

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doctor says the living lie, the dead can't.

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But that doesn't mean they give up the truth easily.

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Yeah and it's it's a

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real cool way how you you know

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because sometimes I when I read books

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I like to I guess I live in this age

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now where it's like everything becomes a movie and so

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I'm just kind of visualizing like

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one minute you know the doctor's working and

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then we go to a part of of

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august's life and it's like as

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she's exploring him it's like

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you're picking back up it's like you're the the flashbacks that

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you put in now it's like okay so she found that part of his life you know i'm

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saying i think that's that's that's really interesting how you did that and

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and like you said you you weren't really an expert you're basically a professor

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at a college you're creative writing professor.

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And so you had to do what I call method acting in order to put this book together.

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So you actually worked in a restaurant setting and you actually worked at a

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hospital autopsy clinic to kind of get your background.

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Talk about what you learned other than what you needed for the book,

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what you learned about those particular industries.

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And since this is a political show, what do you think.

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Needs to be done policy-wise dealing with those particular industries that may

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have caught your attention while you were engaged in that?

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That's a great question. I'll start with how, yeah, how this sort of came to

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be because it did begin with that notion of could you tell a person's life story

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by dissecting their body?

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You know, if you look at the sweep of literature and of fiction out there.

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You can go anywhere in the universe in fiction. You can go to the furthest reaches

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of deep space, to the center of the earth.

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You can go way into the distant past. You can go into the future.

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You can travel to any country, any locale, any setting, any kind of person.

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But there's one place that literature really hasn't

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gone unless you count the magic school us and

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that's inside the human body there is very

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very very little literature out there very little fiction that

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really gets into what makes

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a body go and that was sort of the beginning premise of the book and you're

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right to write it i had well i had worked in restaurants i'd worked in the service

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industry since i was like 16 years old i was always i was a bartender i knew when i was,

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going to be a writer when I was 14 or 15.

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And when I got to be 18, I realized I better have a trade because I don't know

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how to use Microsoft Excel.

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So I became a bartender because that you can work anywhere, you set your own hours.

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It's fascinating. I loved it, but I always worked in what we call the front

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of house, not the kitchen.

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And my father was a restaurant architect growing up. So it was always a part

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of my life. I always loved the restaurant industry.

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It's the only industry I kind of understand at all. It's the only kind of business I understand.

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But as for the medical element, I, nothing, I really knew nothing.

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I had taken a class in college called primate anatomy, which actually might've

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been the best class that I took aside from the Finnegan's weight class.

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Which gets me into trouble but when i you're right when you say it's like method acting i view.

00:20:29.668 --> 00:20:34.428
Fiction as a chance to do the thing that actors get to do where they get to

00:20:34.428 --> 00:20:42.308
go take crash courses right actors get sent off to to to to spain for four months

00:20:42.308 --> 00:20:45.168
to learn how to be a bullfighter You know,

00:20:45.448 --> 00:20:49.328
they'll, they'll get intensive scuba diving lessons.

00:20:49.628 --> 00:20:55.788
They'll learn defensive driving. I thought I, that's what a great way to be an artist to my mind,

00:20:55.788 --> 00:21:00.288
to get to absorb these fascinating things that the world has to offer and then

00:21:00.288 --> 00:21:02.768
convey them to readers in a way

00:21:02.768 --> 00:21:06.108
that's exciting and transforms our understanding of the world around us.

00:21:06.928 --> 00:21:11.188
So, you know, on this one, I picked being a, picked being a chef,

00:21:11.548 --> 00:21:13.448
although in my case, it was really being a prep cook.

00:21:14.048 --> 00:21:19.028
I went to, I got a grant and I got to travel to France to work as a prep cook

00:21:19.028 --> 00:21:22.388
in a Michelin starred kitchen, which I hated.

00:21:23.690 --> 00:21:32.190
Turns out, I was a good bartender. I'm not a bad cook, but I am not built for

00:21:32.190 --> 00:21:34.530
a kitchen. A lot of reasons.

00:21:35.450 --> 00:21:41.150
But that same summer, I got to go. I got very lucky. And I knew somebody who

00:21:41.150 --> 00:21:43.130
was resident in pathology in Pittsburgh.

00:21:43.350 --> 00:21:50.590
And his attending let me come for two weeks to observe and assist in their autopsy lab.

00:21:51.010 --> 00:21:53.430
And I had been writing the book before this. So this is like,

00:21:53.430 --> 00:21:57.690
this is like 2017. I had been writing the book sort of for real and in my head

00:21:57.690 --> 00:21:59.110
for about five years at this point.

00:22:00.830 --> 00:22:07.090
And I had written bits of Maya's story. And two minutes after I walked into that autopsy lab,

00:22:07.170 --> 00:22:11.570
I knew everything I'd written about Maya had to be thrown away because I did

00:22:11.570 --> 00:22:17.790
not have any concept of what an autopsy really was, how it worked, what it involved.

00:22:18.730 --> 00:22:21.230
We've all seen autopsies, a bazillion of them on television.

00:22:21.830 --> 00:22:28.350
There's always this sort of blue light people are wearing maybe an apron they

00:22:28.350 --> 00:22:32.330
have machines that you can sort of pass over thing and it reveals every metal

00:22:32.330 --> 00:22:34.930
in the corpses but none of this is real,

00:22:36.030 --> 00:22:42.010
none of it and i also had been worried that it would be grotesque or gruesome

00:22:42.010 --> 00:22:45.390
or difficult for me to see you know because you walk in and then there's just

00:22:45.390 --> 00:22:49.510
a dead person stuck naked very dead very freshly dead.

00:22:49.870 --> 00:22:54.090
There's no embalming fluid there. They died usually the day before or that day.

00:22:55.750 --> 00:22:58.310
And I thought I was going to have trouble and I just didn't.

00:22:59.663 --> 00:23:02.423
The it and i

00:23:02.423 --> 00:23:05.863
i think this gets into something that i actually do care about you asked about

00:23:05.863 --> 00:23:10.743
like the political resonance of of these things and there's two sides to it

00:23:10.743 --> 00:23:17.023
one is the side of the autopsies which is that in america and really throughout

00:23:17.023 --> 00:23:20.843
the the wealthy developed world we are,

00:23:21.743 --> 00:23:27.863
more insulated from death than at any time in human history through for all

00:23:27.863 --> 00:23:31.163
of human history leading up to really the last 50 years,

00:23:31.803 --> 00:23:36.623
death has been a fairly constant fixture in people's life.

00:23:36.743 --> 00:23:40.543
It was, you knew it more intimately. It was closer. It was scarier.

00:23:42.163 --> 00:23:47.663
But, well, now 50% of us die in hospitals. And I used to think that I was surprised

00:23:47.663 --> 00:23:50.063
it's that low. I thought it would be more.

00:23:51.423 --> 00:23:55.903
But to, we are so walled off from death.

00:23:56.043 --> 00:24:02.123
We're so protected from it. Because also to the way that the elderly die is

00:24:02.123 --> 00:24:05.643
much, it's much less likely to be at home, right?

00:24:05.963 --> 00:24:10.543
It's more that you're going to be in a home or a hospice and you're sort of,

00:24:10.743 --> 00:24:14.283
maybe your family's coming to visit, but it's not that intimate. You don't really see it.

00:24:14.723 --> 00:24:17.103
And when you don't see something, you're more scared of it.

00:24:18.503 --> 00:24:21.983
And for, there's a strong industry now in America.

00:24:22.523 --> 00:24:27.823
I mean, the death industry is very large, but there's now and has been for a

00:24:27.823 --> 00:24:32.183
good 10, 15 years of movement to change the way that we die,

00:24:32.383 --> 00:24:36.103
whether it's to die at home or to reconsider what a good death looks like.

00:24:38.418 --> 00:24:41.778
And there's a lot of great work out there by a woman named Caitlin Doty,

00:24:41.998 --> 00:24:46.898
who is a former permanent mortician, wrote Smoke Gets in Your Eyes,

00:24:47.178 --> 00:24:50.358
a woman named Ann Newman, who wrote a book called The Good Death.

00:24:51.158 --> 00:24:53.258
And then Atul Gawande wrote Being Mortal.

00:24:54.638 --> 00:24:58.778
And one of the things that I really hoped with this book, this book really is

00:24:58.778 --> 00:25:01.598
a confrontation with death, but it isn't supposed to be scary.

00:25:01.598 --> 00:25:03.618
It's never about horror.

00:25:03.858 --> 00:25:07.398
It's never supposed to frighten or shake you.

00:25:07.398 --> 00:25:10.078
It's supposed to expose you to

00:25:10.078 --> 00:25:13.818
something so that you can get a grip on it because if we never see something we

00:25:13.818 --> 00:25:17.098
don't have any understanding of

00:25:17.098 --> 00:25:20.878
how to deal with it when it does come rather for us or for people around us

00:25:20.878 --> 00:25:28.938
and so to that i like to tell people that autopsies are an extraordinarily valuable

00:25:28.938 --> 00:25:34.238
and respectful medical procedure they're the gold standard for diagnosis,

00:25:34.858 --> 00:25:40.398
if you die in a teaching hospital the hospital will usually offer it to you for free.

00:25:42.358 --> 00:25:46.878
And rarely do the people who are asking you about the autopsy have any concept

00:25:46.878 --> 00:25:49.758
of what it involves few will have ever seen it most doctors have never seen

00:25:49.758 --> 00:25:55.678
an autopsy only pathologists have to watch them they have to do 50 to get accredited

00:25:55.678 --> 00:26:01.778
but there are a lot of reasons and i can get into them later if you want me to,

00:26:02.258 --> 00:26:08.778
but there are a number of reasons why an autopsy can provide closure for families.

00:26:08.778 --> 00:26:14.558
They can provide vitally important medical information that will not necessarily

00:26:14.558 --> 00:26:19.018
be accessible through regular diagnosis, especially in cases of dementia.

00:26:20.678 --> 00:26:25.458
Even people imagine that autopsies are only for cases of suspicious death or

00:26:25.458 --> 00:26:30.658
accidental death or mysterious death and that isn't the case autopsies can and

00:26:30.658 --> 00:26:34.598
should be for everybody because they're,

00:26:35.709 --> 00:26:41.149
They are a way to jumpstart the grieving process. They can catch things that

00:26:41.149 --> 00:26:42.189
the hospital may not have seen.

00:26:42.349 --> 00:26:47.289
They can catch genetic questions that may never be answerable otherwise.

00:26:47.669 --> 00:26:52.309
And if you're a hospital, they provide a lot of quality control because autopsies

00:26:52.309 --> 00:26:58.329
catch errors at a high rate, about 10%. And people make mistakes.

00:26:59.049 --> 00:27:00.909
Autopsies are there to make sure they don't happen twice.

00:27:01.849 --> 00:27:07.469
So that's my autopsy soapbox. I can come down off of it because when it comes

00:27:07.469 --> 00:27:10.209
to restaurants, there's also a political element there.

00:27:11.069 --> 00:27:17.129
There are a piece that came out today, I believe, in Eater by a woman named Jaya Saxena,

00:27:17.289 --> 00:27:25.209
which is all about how restaurants have weathered the post-COVID era and how

00:27:25.209 --> 00:27:28.929
there isn't really a post-COVID era for restaurants. They're still dealing with it.

00:27:29.369 --> 00:27:35.109
And now with the destruction of federal funding, they're getting hit hard.

00:27:35.809 --> 00:27:39.089
Restaurants are failing at a, have always failed at a high rate.

00:27:39.209 --> 00:27:41.669
And now that rate is much, much, much higher.

00:27:42.569 --> 00:27:47.709
So one of the things that I tried to do with this book was COVID is an element

00:27:47.709 --> 00:27:49.829
in it. COVID happened while I was finishing it.

00:27:50.329 --> 00:27:55.309
And I knew that when I wrote it, whenever it came out, it was going to come

00:27:55.309 --> 00:27:56.809
out into a post COVID era.

00:27:56.809 --> 00:28:01.469
And the two industries that the book was about, medicine and food,

00:28:01.629 --> 00:28:06.349
were going to be transformed, possibly permanently, by what was happening at that moment.

00:28:06.429 --> 00:28:14.169
And I had to ask myself, what would an equitable restaurant look like in,

00:28:14.349 --> 00:28:19.209
say, like 2025, I think, or sit around 2023 or 2024?

00:28:19.589 --> 00:28:22.569
What would the restaurant of the future look like?

00:28:22.609 --> 00:28:26.589
What would a sustainable and equitable environment look like?

00:28:26.589 --> 00:28:31.849
And I tried to create that at the end of the book. And I think in the main, I got it right.

00:28:33.049 --> 00:28:40.349
But yeah, there are political elements to both of these things that are only

00:28:40.349 --> 00:28:44.309
going to get worse, I think, in the coming years.

00:28:45.549 --> 00:28:52.789
Yeah. And, you know, I just, I think that you may be right in that,

00:28:52.949 --> 00:29:00.189
but I'm hoping that people get more, as we're still coming out of COVID,

00:29:00.589 --> 00:29:09.509
more engaged in focusing, honing more in on policy solutions rather than entertainment.

00:29:09.909 --> 00:29:15.109
But that's my political commentary. Terry, I'm not going to get too deep with

00:29:15.109 --> 00:29:20.809
you on that, but I did want to do something a little fun so you could flesh

00:29:20.809 --> 00:29:22.169
out the characters a little bit.

00:29:22.429 --> 00:29:30.009
So since this is a political podcast, let's imagine August Sweeney and Dr.

00:29:30.249 --> 00:29:35.069
Maya Zhu were candidates for an important political office you had to vote for.

00:29:36.141 --> 00:29:41.141
First, what would be appealing about Sweeney and Zoo to a voter?

00:29:41.521 --> 00:29:46.281
I mean, it's funny because August would annihilate her.

00:29:46.841 --> 00:29:50.841
It would be like 90 to 10. He would ruin her.

00:29:51.621 --> 00:29:57.941
And what I find interesting about that question is that August is the chef on the table.

00:29:58.341 --> 00:30:01.661
And Maya is the doctor who is taking him apart. And Maya is the one who's telling

00:30:01.661 --> 00:30:04.861
his story or peeling his story away.

00:30:05.621 --> 00:30:09.861
And she's having her own arc over the course of the day my august story takes

00:30:09.861 --> 00:30:16.601
50 years maya's story takes one day and they're cut together and they're two

00:30:16.601 --> 00:30:22.121
sides of the same coin they're both creatures of intense intense appetites of

00:30:22.121 --> 00:30:24.861
ambition desire the difference is.

00:30:25.621 --> 00:30:29.741
August gives in to all of his appetites august

00:30:29.741 --> 00:30:33.961
is completely sybaritic he loves

00:30:33.961 --> 00:30:37.161
pleasure he loves food he loves sex

00:30:37.161 --> 00:30:40.881
he loves people he loves life maya loves

00:30:40.881 --> 00:30:43.981
what she does and she walls herself

00:30:43.981 --> 00:30:46.721
off from everything else in order to

00:30:46.721 --> 00:30:50.081
succeed at the one thing that she does so if

00:30:50.081 --> 00:30:54.121
they were running against each other it would be a bloodbath because august

00:30:54.121 --> 00:31:02.401
is the most fun guy in the whole august is falstaff he is six foot nine four

00:31:02.401 --> 00:31:08.741
hundred pounds he He is so large that he creates his own gravity and he draws people into him.

00:31:09.261 --> 00:31:13.941
He is the best person to be around. Even his daughter, who shows up later in

00:31:13.941 --> 00:31:20.801
the book, the daughter from whom he is estranged, remembers how extraordinary

00:31:20.801 --> 00:31:23.781
it was when you did get to be with him.

00:31:24.141 --> 00:31:27.001
And I think that that's the secret that a lot of great politicians have,

00:31:27.101 --> 00:31:29.181
which is that when you're with them, and the great politicians,

00:31:29.441 --> 00:31:33.581
they have this faculty of making you feel like you were the only one in the whole world.

00:31:33.881 --> 00:31:37.961
This was especially what people said about Clinton. Biden was really good at this.

00:31:39.472 --> 00:31:49.372
They make you feel seen. They make you in just moments. Maya would be a terrific dictator.

00:31:50.592 --> 00:31:55.832
If Maya didn't have to run for anything in her whole life and she had complete

00:31:55.832 --> 00:31:59.572
control, she would be, I think she would be a tremendous dictator.

00:32:00.212 --> 00:32:04.932
She is a terrible manager, however, because she doesn't want to deal with anyone else.

00:32:05.032 --> 00:32:09.112
She doesn't like to, to, to have to trust anybody.

00:32:09.952 --> 00:32:14.992
And if she were running, you know, I mean, it'd be a little bit of a rerun of 2016.

00:32:15.012 --> 00:32:20.592
Frankly, it's the guy who's constantly doing comedy and improvising and giving

00:32:20.592 --> 00:32:26.192
people what they want versus the woman with clearly articulated 20 point plan

00:32:26.192 --> 00:32:27.052
for debt restructuring.

00:32:27.372 --> 00:32:30.392
One of those people makes a better administrator.

00:32:30.932 --> 00:32:36.172
Right. August would be I wouldn't say he'd be a disaster if elected because

00:32:36.172 --> 00:32:42.912
he does work hard. He does do the work. He is extraordinarily gifted at what he does.

00:32:43.632 --> 00:32:46.552
That's why he's him. That's why he gets away with it.

00:32:46.612 --> 00:32:52.852
His whole life is getting away with it, which is, again, the stamp of a successful

00:32:52.852 --> 00:32:56.192
and sustainable politician, for better or for worse.

00:32:57.132 --> 00:33:01.552
And he's intensely loyal to people around him. So August does have that very

00:33:01.552 --> 00:33:03.932
political quality. That's why he succeeds on television.

00:33:04.132 --> 00:33:06.332
That's why he becomes such a celebrity.

00:33:07.892 --> 00:33:15.632
I don't think Maya could get through a stump speech frankly but if I wanted

00:33:15.632 --> 00:33:22.472
someone to be a cabinet secretary I would pick Maya I would let Maya run HHS.

00:33:24.212 --> 00:33:30.212
Let her be let her be the surgeon general I got you so you've already kind of

00:33:30.212 --> 00:33:36.652
dealt with who you think would win And I'd be curious to know, who would you vote for?

00:33:37.532 --> 00:33:40.272
You know, I live in Washington, D.C.

00:33:41.772 --> 00:33:44.892
I'm married to a civil servant. Everyone here I know is a civil servant.

00:33:44.992 --> 00:33:47.732
I know very few people in the political world. Everyone here I know is in policy.

00:33:49.892 --> 00:33:55.012
And it's interesting because I know people who work for people like Maya,

00:33:55.352 --> 00:34:00.392
who don't like to share, who are really competent in their own world.

00:34:01.532 --> 00:34:04.492
But who for whatever reason cannot

00:34:04.492 --> 00:34:08.392
delegate can't manage those people

00:34:08.392 --> 00:34:11.372
genuinely should not be running

00:34:11.372 --> 00:34:14.312
things i mean we can point there's

00:34:14.312 --> 00:34:17.592
a whole host of reasons why people shouldn't be in charge but this is a kind

00:34:17.592 --> 00:34:23.432
of very specific competence that works great if you need them to do work for

00:34:23.432 --> 00:34:28.592
you but the minute they're in charge of others it starts to fall apart now in

00:34:28.592 --> 00:34:32.252
august August is, he's not quite amoral.

00:34:33.963 --> 00:34:39.763
But he is loosely moral. If August were on my team, right?

00:34:40.443 --> 00:34:43.723
If he believed in what, if he said, I believe in what I believe,

00:34:43.823 --> 00:34:44.703
I'm going to fight for this thing.

00:34:45.683 --> 00:34:49.743
Knowing everything that I do about them both, I might actually vote for August

00:34:49.743 --> 00:34:52.423
because August does know how to build a team.

00:34:52.563 --> 00:34:56.383
August does know how to get people to do what he wants them to do.

00:34:56.783 --> 00:34:59.283
Does he have the purest motivations?

00:35:00.703 --> 00:35:05.423
Probably not. will he inevitably be

00:35:05.423 --> 00:35:08.723
caught up in a massive scandal oh yeah

00:35:08.723 --> 00:35:11.523
like definitely he's like he's going

00:35:11.523 --> 00:35:15.503
to he'll like you put him in the senate he's gonna have like a term and a half

00:35:15.503 --> 00:35:21.683
and then he yeah then he'd have to resign for the dumbest scandal you've ever

00:35:21.683 --> 00:35:27.463
heard of that's sort of what i love about him but no i really like knowing everything

00:35:27.463 --> 00:35:28.783
i know about how this city works.

00:35:30.603 --> 00:35:31.363
I don't know.

00:35:33.023 --> 00:35:38.223
Like I might, I would vote for August for president. I might vote for Maya for

00:35:38.223 --> 00:35:39.603
Senate. Does that make sense?

00:35:40.423 --> 00:35:44.303
Yeah. Yeah. That, that, that's pretty cool. Cause that's since you,

00:35:44.443 --> 00:35:49.423
you know, you're the, you have the inside information on both of these characters.

00:35:49.423 --> 00:35:54.323
I just thought that that would be an interesting take on.

00:35:54.603 --> 00:35:58.183
I love it. I love thinking about it. It's the, it's my other,

00:35:59.063 --> 00:36:00.623
fascination that I don't ever write about.

00:36:01.043 --> 00:36:07.023
I got you. So look, I wanted to ask you this one last question that's kind of

00:36:07.023 --> 00:36:09.463
off of the book, but into what you do.

00:36:10.083 --> 00:36:13.543
You're a professor of creative writing at George Washington University.

00:36:13.643 --> 00:36:24.543
So your job is to kind of not only teach, but kind of mentor young writers, get them in their space.

00:36:24.563 --> 00:36:33.683
But one of the issues I know that's got to be concerning you is this move to ban books.

00:36:33.983 --> 00:36:44.583
How do you console or how do you encourage your students to pursue what they

00:36:44.583 --> 00:36:51.583
want to write about in an atmosphere where their work could literally be taken off a library shelf.

00:36:53.103 --> 00:36:58.883
I... I... You know, it's funny because...

00:37:00.871 --> 00:37:03.651
You know what let's go back to james joyce for a second

00:37:03.651 --> 00:37:06.811
i'm so sorry that's okay ulysses is

00:37:06.811 --> 00:37:09.951
banned in the u.s it comes out in 1922

00:37:09.951 --> 00:37:20.291
it's immediately banned as obscene and about 10 years later the a publisher

00:37:20.291 --> 00:37:24.531
a guy named bennett sir very famous publisher one i believe wants to use Ulysses

00:37:24.531 --> 00:37:29.471
as a test case to fight the obscenity laws.

00:37:29.731 --> 00:37:32.011
And so they import a copy.

00:37:32.451 --> 00:37:39.471
And the guy, he makes the crossing from Europe, Paris probably, on a steamship.

00:37:39.531 --> 00:37:43.011
And he has at least one copy of Ulysses in his luggage.

00:37:43.231 --> 00:37:49.731
And what he expects is that the goal is for the customs officer to inspect the

00:37:49.731 --> 00:37:54.271
luggage, confiscate the book on the grounds of obscenity, and then they'll sue.

00:37:54.431 --> 00:37:56.631
And that's, they have standing, they can go to town.

00:37:57.351 --> 00:38:01.911
The problem is he arrives in the middle of summer and it is hot as hell.

00:38:02.531 --> 00:38:05.171
And they're going to customs officers, free the air of air conditioning.

00:38:05.591 --> 00:38:09.831
It's blazing. The customs officer does not give a damn.

00:38:10.131 --> 00:38:14.011
The publisher's just like, he's go, just, no, just go, just go, just go.

00:38:14.131 --> 00:38:17.031
And this guy is sweating because he just made this whole trip for one reason

00:38:17.031 --> 00:38:21.711
and he'd like he he puts his suitcase in front of the customs officers i demand

00:38:21.711 --> 00:38:28.111
that you inspect my bag and this guy's like fine and he does and it launches

00:38:28.111 --> 00:38:36.731
the case and like they win ulysses is allowed to come into the u.s i think in 1933 right and there,

00:38:37.751 --> 00:38:41.711
think about book banning is it's for

00:38:41.711 --> 00:38:49.511
idiots and because if there's one way to guarantee people want to get their

00:38:49.511 --> 00:38:55.951
hands on a book it's to ban right banned in boston was a tagline for literature

00:38:55.951 --> 00:39:00.151
back in the days when anti-obscenity laws had actual teeth in this country.

00:39:02.627 --> 00:39:07.007
Thing the idea of like i know that there's a bunch of there's there's politicians out there who have,

00:39:08.387 --> 00:39:12.387
really excited for like a return to the comstock act which

00:39:12.387 --> 00:39:15.187
is horrifying and preposterous but when i talk to

00:39:15.187 --> 00:39:19.127
my students it's not it's not

00:39:19.127 --> 00:39:21.967
a factor which i think is great like nobody is worried

00:39:21.967 --> 00:39:24.787
about having their book taken off a library shelf because by the time your book

00:39:24.787 --> 00:39:27.807
has made it to a library shelf mazel tov you've

00:39:27.807 --> 00:39:31.047
made it and like you

00:39:31.047 --> 00:39:34.407
go and look at the list of the most banned books in this

00:39:34.407 --> 00:39:38.527
country they're also some of the most popular so when

00:39:38.527 --> 00:39:42.087
i talked to them the you know

00:39:42.087 --> 00:39:45.507
and i've known friends who've had to go and like get up

00:39:45.507 --> 00:39:48.247
in the faces of people like the moms for liberty or whoever it is

00:39:48.247 --> 00:39:51.107
is trying to come into school districts and ban book and as you get in these

00:39:51.107 --> 00:39:57.387
people's faces and they wilt right they're not usually from that area and they

00:39:57.387 --> 00:40:00.467
don't have much of a leg to stand on and it horrifies far more people than it

00:40:00.467 --> 00:40:06.447
attracts you know i hope that in three years i'm not remembering i said this

00:40:06.447 --> 00:40:08.187
and being like boy was i naive.

00:40:09.847 --> 00:40:12.987
But no what i try to do with my students honestly is i

00:40:12.987 --> 00:40:16.207
try to prepare them for the publishing world i try to i teach

00:40:16.207 --> 00:40:19.427
a class that very few people do which is

00:40:19.427 --> 00:40:22.267
really about how to turn this into a career it's less about craft

00:40:22.267 --> 00:40:25.007
and more about how to make money how to

00:40:25.007 --> 00:40:27.707
file your taxes what different outlets want how

00:40:27.707 --> 00:40:30.747
to pitch things how to write a book proposal how to ghostwrite things i

00:40:30.747 --> 00:40:34.127
bring in people like speech writers copywriters screenwriters

00:40:34.127 --> 00:40:37.407
and it's it's what i

00:40:37.407 --> 00:40:40.167
want is for students people to come out of that environment being able to say

00:40:40.167 --> 00:40:43.347
yes to anything that comes their way even if

00:40:43.347 --> 00:40:48.827
they don't know how to do it they know that they can learn how and so for me

00:40:48.827 --> 00:40:54.467
the The best thing I can do as a professor is give them enough of a roadmap

00:40:54.467 --> 00:41:00.827
to a writing life that when they encounter setbacks or confusion or mystery

00:41:00.827 --> 00:41:02.087
or gatekeepers, they don't give up.

00:41:03.356 --> 00:41:09.376
Yeah. And that encouragement is, you know, regardless of what what what you're

00:41:09.376 --> 00:41:11.416
teaching is always, always good.

00:41:11.856 --> 00:41:14.196
So, look, we're in a unique situation.

00:41:15.016 --> 00:41:19.376
Your book, The Death and Life of August Sweeney, has not come out yet,

00:41:19.376 --> 00:41:22.416
but is coming out very, very soon.

00:41:23.456 --> 00:41:28.316
So tell people, you know, when the book's going to drop, you know,

00:41:28.376 --> 00:41:30.016
how they'll be able to get the book.

00:41:30.196 --> 00:41:34.956
And if people want to get in touch with you per se, how can they do that as well?

00:41:35.236 --> 00:41:39.056
That's great. So, yeah, the book comes out March 20th. So I think a couple of

00:41:39.056 --> 00:41:43.496
days after this recording drops, it'll be available anywhere you get your books.

00:41:43.496 --> 00:41:47.476
If you want to request it from your local library, please, please, please do that.

00:41:47.556 --> 00:41:51.116
There's nothing I would like more talking about libraries than to have that

00:41:51.116 --> 00:41:52.136
book be on library shelves.

00:41:53.436 --> 00:41:57.256
It i will be doing appearances in

00:41:57.256 --> 00:42:00.156
new york green light books that's with

00:42:00.156 --> 00:42:03.576
the top chef judge tom colicchio which i

00:42:03.576 --> 00:42:08.556
am excited about and terrified of because i've never met the man i have an event

00:42:08.556 --> 00:42:14.536
in two events in dc where i live we won in baltimore and then i'll be at the

00:42:14.536 --> 00:42:20.376
awp conference in Los Angeles from March 26 to 29.

00:42:21.156 --> 00:42:27.276
I very much want to hear from readers or people who have questions at all.

00:42:27.396 --> 00:42:31.616
You can find me on my website, www.samuelashworth.com.

00:42:31.896 --> 00:42:35.896
And I like to speak directly to anybody who is in the medical world.

00:42:36.416 --> 00:42:42.096
One of my great dreams for this book, and a lot of doctors I've spoken to have started doing it,

00:42:42.356 --> 00:42:45.596
is I would love this book to be on the curriculum in medical schools because

00:42:45.596 --> 00:42:48.616
it is about medical students it is about

00:42:48.616 --> 00:42:53.576
a vital procedure that most of those students and even the doctors will never

00:42:53.576 --> 00:43:02.476
see and i to me the absolute highest honor would be to find myself on syllabi

00:43:02.476 --> 00:43:07.416
in medical schools because then i at least this book will have done some good.

00:43:08.587 --> 00:43:14.287
Well, I think you're going to get that wish taken care of because,

00:43:14.627 --> 00:43:17.407
like you said, it's very detailed.

00:43:17.607 --> 00:43:25.667
I mean, even the way the book opens, it's like I had to do some research myself

00:43:25.667 --> 00:43:31.547
just to kind of get started. I was like, oh, wow, this is really an autopsy report. Okay.

00:43:32.987 --> 00:43:38.607
So I think people are going to get a lot out of that. I think people are going

00:43:38.607 --> 00:43:44.467
to learn a lot by reading this book as well as being entertained.

00:43:44.847 --> 00:43:47.207
So congratulations on putting that together.

00:43:47.827 --> 00:43:54.487
And Samuel Ashworth, it's really been an honor to talk to you and to meet you.

00:43:55.007 --> 00:44:00.667
And I hope that, like I do any author that comes on, I hope your book flies off the shelf.

00:44:00.667 --> 00:44:08.027
I hope it's it's a bestseller and and hopefully that you will on the on the

00:44:08.027 --> 00:44:13.367
success of this book that you continue to write and and continue to produce

00:44:13.367 --> 00:44:17.407
quality writers as well, because because we need them.

00:44:17.407 --> 00:44:23.687
You know, I admit and I tell people I'm not a big fiction person,

00:44:23.687 --> 00:44:29.227
but one of the good things about this podcast is that it's got me reading a lot more.

00:44:30.467 --> 00:44:37.467
And so I enjoy reading your book. And again, I wish you much success on it.

00:44:37.687 --> 00:44:44.027
And as always, any guest that comes on the show is an open invitation to come back.

00:44:44.027 --> 00:44:49.687
So when you get inspired to write something else or you or you got something

00:44:49.687 --> 00:44:52.867
burning in your chest and say, Eric, I need to talk to somebody about it.

00:44:53.387 --> 00:44:58.947
Just feel free to come back, my man. Thank you so much. My pleasure, Eric. Thank you so much.

00:44:59.507 --> 00:45:02.307
All right, guys. And we're going to catch all on the other side.

00:45:04.080 --> 00:45:22.640
Music.

00:45:22.486 --> 00:45:28.906
And we are back. So before we go to my next guest, I wanted to highlight something

00:45:28.906 --> 00:45:36.606
that was submitted by previous contributor to the program, Professor Richard or Rick Roberts.

00:45:37.786 --> 00:45:41.366
Rick is a specialist professor in the Department of Economics,

00:45:41.586 --> 00:45:43.626
Finance and Real Estate at Monmouth University.

00:45:44.566 --> 00:45:48.846
And he came on before to talk about economics.

00:45:49.986 --> 00:45:58.046
And so I asked him to submit something, and he couldn't find the time really to record it.

00:45:58.106 --> 00:46:03.726
So what he did was he wrote something up that I could read talking about tariffs.

00:46:04.126 --> 00:46:07.626
And so I wanted to kind of give this primer to the listeners,

00:46:07.626 --> 00:46:13.886
if some of y'all might be confused about that, and since, you know,

00:46:14.026 --> 00:46:17.426
President Trump has been talking about that a lot.

00:46:18.346 --> 00:46:21.406
And so I wanted to give some facts.

00:46:22.326 --> 00:46:30.086
And so the explanation of tariffs are that tariffs are taxes imposed on important goods.

00:46:30.846 --> 00:46:35.226
President Trump has used tariffs and the threat of additional tariffs as leverage

00:46:35.226 --> 00:46:40.766
to address issues like fentanyl smuggling, encourage fair trade practices,

00:46:41.106 --> 00:46:43.666
and to boost domestic manufacturing.

00:46:43.666 --> 00:46:51.106
Most presidents tend to use the latter two, and they target a particular country

00:46:51.106 --> 00:46:55.406
rather than just saying everybody's got to pay a tariff, right?

00:46:56.786 --> 00:47:03.806
But, you know, it's really just a kind of a tool to get countries to the table

00:47:03.806 --> 00:47:08.406
and talk about how they can be better trade partners.

00:47:09.006 --> 00:47:10.686
It's, you know, it's a weapon.

00:47:11.506 --> 00:47:16.866
And, you know, they do use the term tariff war, right? A lot of times.

00:47:17.566 --> 00:47:23.546
So, you know, that's why it's not used that often.

00:47:23.766 --> 00:47:28.526
But in President Trump's case, he seems to be in love with tariffs.

00:47:28.526 --> 00:47:36.766
So anyway, Trump's tariffs have been targeted, have targeted goods like steel, aluminum, and lumber.

00:47:37.086 --> 00:47:40.686
Countries most affected include Canada, Mexico, and China.

00:47:41.126 --> 00:47:48.566
Recently, Trump doubled planned tariffs on Canadian steel and aluminum, increasing them to 50%.

00:47:49.506 --> 00:47:52.326
Excuse me. So...

00:47:54.021 --> 00:47:59.461
And he's taking them off. Right. So when Professor Roberts wrote this,

00:47:59.761 --> 00:48:02.221
the 50 percent was on at that point.

00:48:03.721 --> 00:48:10.561
He was recently interviewed and he said to the Economic News Today that tariffs

00:48:10.561 --> 00:48:12.321
are a self-inflicted wound.

00:48:13.301 --> 00:48:19.841
And he stated that because tariffs increased the cost of imported inputs for

00:48:19.841 --> 00:48:26.141
businesses, leading to higher prices for consumers and reduced purchasing power.

00:48:26.201 --> 00:48:31.321
This will slow the economy over the short run and lead to fewer jobs.

00:48:32.221 --> 00:48:37.441
Pay attention to that. All right. So how have the financial markets reacted?

00:48:37.841 --> 00:48:41.521
The stock market has reacted negatively to tariff announcements,

00:48:41.741 --> 00:48:46.421
largely because the announcement often flip flop tariffs on again,

00:48:46.801 --> 00:48:50.321
then off again with significant sell offs occurring.

00:48:51.041 --> 00:48:56.781
Uncertainty around tariffs can also discourage investment and slow down the economy.

00:48:57.541 --> 00:49:03.321
So there's some theories running around that Trump might be doing this to help

00:49:03.321 --> 00:49:08.021
some friends out, knowing what impact it has on the stock market,

00:49:08.461 --> 00:49:13.461
helping people buy low and then sell high, right, when things stabilize.

00:49:14.081 --> 00:49:16.741
So that's kind of out there.

00:49:18.561 --> 00:49:23.641
How does the tariff policies impact the average American consumer?

00:49:23.881 --> 00:49:28.641
This is the part where the confusion is, where it shouldn't be, but it is.

00:49:28.921 --> 00:49:35.021
It says consumers will face higher prices for goods due to increased import costs.

00:49:35.781 --> 00:49:40.261
U.S. companies use inputs from overseas to make their products.

00:49:40.781 --> 00:49:46.701
If the prices of inputs go up, the companies will have to raise the prices of

00:49:46.701 --> 00:49:48.761
their products for consumers.

00:49:48.961 --> 00:49:53.341
And he cites an example, Canadian lumber prices.

00:49:53.681 --> 00:49:59.621
If they increase, then it'll be an increase in new home prices for Americans.

00:49:59.641 --> 00:50:04.441
So any new construction that uses Canadian lumber, you know,

00:50:04.541 --> 00:50:07.921
to set the framing and all that stuff, then that means that the.

00:50:08.704 --> 00:50:12.864
Home that's being built is going to cost more. All right.

00:50:13.384 --> 00:50:17.584
Americans will face higher prices buying products produced overseas.

00:50:18.084 --> 00:50:22.064
The example he cites is Amazon products that are made in China.

00:50:22.064 --> 00:50:27.744
So if you order something from Amazon, Amazon is going to raise the price because

00:50:27.744 --> 00:50:35.044
the tariff affects them because the cost is passed down from that Chinese manufacturer to Amazon.

00:50:35.684 --> 00:50:43.284
Amazon has to raise the price either in shipping or raise the price overall to cover the shipping.

00:50:43.544 --> 00:50:48.044
It all depends on where you go. But either way to go, you're going to feel it, right?

00:50:49.364 --> 00:50:53.824
And finally, he says, given the current economic landscape, what advice would

00:50:53.824 --> 00:50:56.124
he give to policymakers regarding tariffs?

00:50:56.944 --> 00:50:59.984
And he said that he would advise against tariffs.

00:51:00.664 --> 00:51:05.164
However, it is not in President Trump's DNA to reverse course on a policy that

00:51:05.164 --> 00:51:06.684
he is so strongly supported.

00:51:06.924 --> 00:51:09.284
Again, he seems to be in love with tariffs.

00:51:09.784 --> 00:51:15.384
Therefore, Professor Roberts would suggest that he announce a program and stick with it.

00:51:15.524 --> 00:51:21.304
Stop flip-flopping on the size and breadth of the tariffs as it confuses markets

00:51:21.304 --> 00:51:26.564
and has contributed to fears of recession and continued market declines.

00:51:26.564 --> 00:51:34.304
And the president and his commerce secretary have basically admitted that if

00:51:34.304 --> 00:51:36.224
they go through with this tariff war,

00:51:36.764 --> 00:51:41.684
if they commit to it, then it's probably going to be a recession, right?

00:51:42.804 --> 00:51:48.524
So I just wanted to throw that out there. Hopefully that's helpful to some folks.

00:51:49.444 --> 00:51:54.164
You know, they've had some questions and the beauty of this is the podcast,

00:51:54.164 --> 00:51:57.484
You can, you know, save it, download it,

00:51:58.264 --> 00:52:00.024
you know, rewind it, play it

00:52:00.024 --> 00:52:05.444
for your friends that have some questions so they'll be better educated.

00:52:05.684 --> 00:52:09.324
Right. But the bottom line is tariffs are bad for the economy.

00:52:10.703 --> 00:52:18.363
And in the immediate. Right. And, you know, if we do see an increase in American

00:52:18.363 --> 00:52:21.803
manufacturing of certain products, that's going to be down the line.

00:52:21.903 --> 00:52:23.883
That's not going to be right away.

00:52:25.143 --> 00:52:31.463
But if you throw a tariff on any and everything, then, yes, it's going to hurt.

00:52:31.463 --> 00:52:32.603
Is going to hurt your wallet.

00:52:32.803 --> 00:52:37.683
So that promise that was made about from day one that he was going to lower

00:52:37.683 --> 00:52:42.663
prices, if he's committed to these tariffs, he's not going to be able to fulfill

00:52:42.663 --> 00:52:45.963
that promise because everything is going to go up. All right.

00:52:46.563 --> 00:52:50.443
So now that we got that out the way, let me go ahead and introduce my next guest,

00:52:50.603 --> 00:52:53.023
and that's Dr. Ted Williams III.

00:52:54.043 --> 00:52:58.723
Dr. Ted Williams III is a passionate educator, actor, and author who is a graduate

00:52:58.723 --> 00:53:03.463
of Rutgers University, the University of Chicago, and Northern Seminary.

00:53:03.663 --> 00:53:08.003
He teaches political science and is the chairman of the Social Sciences Department

00:53:08.003 --> 00:53:11.763
at Kennedy King College, one of the city colleges of Chicago.

00:53:12.163 --> 00:53:17.023
Currently, he is also an adjunct professor at Wheaton College and previously

00:53:17.023 --> 00:53:18.603
at Chicago State University.

00:53:19.383 --> 00:53:25.863
Williams is the former host of WYCC PBS television's The Professor's Public

00:53:25.863 --> 00:53:31.703
Affair Talk Show and has provided insightful political commentary for WGN-TV,

00:53:32.383 --> 00:53:37.543
NBC-TV, Upfront with Jesse Jackson, and a host of additional media outlets.

00:53:37.823 --> 00:53:42.743
As an actor, he has appeared in commercials for companies including Subway,

00:53:43.223 --> 00:53:45.363
Cheerios, and Empire Carpet,

00:53:46.063 --> 00:53:50.483
and recently appeared in the films Human Zoos, The Christmas Thief,

00:53:50.763 --> 00:53:54.583
and on NBC's Chicago PD and Showtime's The Chi.

00:53:54.583 --> 00:53:59.223
Furthermore, he is a contributor to the Third World Press text.

00:54:00.261 --> 00:54:04.241
Not My President, creator of the production Torn the Musical,

00:54:04.621 --> 00:54:09.321
and author of the book The Way Out, Christianity, Politics, and the Future of

00:54:09.321 --> 00:54:10.621
the African American Community.

00:54:10.901 --> 00:54:16.321
His justice-infused artistic work has been funded by the Illinois Arts Council,

00:54:17.021 --> 00:54:21.801
Illinois Humanities, and the Chicago Department of Cultural Affairs and Special Events.

00:54:22.481 --> 00:54:26.281
Williams is a former candidate for the Chicago City Council.

00:54:26.281 --> 00:54:30.621
So I think it was Ward 9, for those of y'all who are listening from Chicago.

00:54:31.481 --> 00:54:35.761
And the creator of the production 1619, The Journey of a People.

00:54:36.581 --> 00:54:42.601
1619 was nominated for the 2020 August Wilson Award for Best Writing of a Musical

00:54:42.601 --> 00:54:44.881
by the Black Theater Alliance Awards.

00:54:45.081 --> 00:54:50.861
In 2021, inspired by the need to teach elementary school children American history,

00:54:50.861 --> 00:54:57.461
He launched the 1619 Musical Chicago Public Schools Arts Integrated Educational Program.

00:54:58.101 --> 00:55:04.601
Williams is an Illinois Humanities Road Scholar and was appointed by Illinois Governor J.B.

00:55:04.781 --> 00:55:07.961
Pritzker to serve on the state's Reparations Commission.

00:55:08.441 --> 00:55:13.081
He has led numerous civic engagement initiatives, provided board leadership

00:55:13.081 --> 00:55:17.981
for various nonprofits, and is often called upon as a speaker and consultant

00:55:17.981 --> 00:55:22.481
on the topics of social justice, diversity, and effective communication.

00:55:22.801 --> 00:55:28.081
He enjoys biking, dance, and watching his favorite team, the Chicago Bears.

00:55:28.401 --> 00:55:32.121
He and his wife, Rosalind, are raising three beautiful children.

00:55:32.681 --> 00:55:36.381
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:55:36.381 --> 00:55:40.141
on this podcast, Dr. Ted Williams III.

00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:52.240
Music.

00:55:51.041 --> 00:55:54.141
All right dr ted williams how

00:55:54.141 --> 00:55:59.181
you doing so you're doing good i am fantastic brother good to be here well i

00:55:59.181 --> 00:56:03.981
am honored to have you on because you you're kind of a renaissance man from

00:56:03.981 --> 00:56:09.141
from my research so i'm always honored and then of course you're a chicago bears

00:56:09.141 --> 00:56:12.881
fan so So you're close to God as far as I'm concerned.

00:56:14.501 --> 00:56:17.681
Well, he just tells me I'm a person of faith, man. That's what that is.

00:56:17.781 --> 00:56:18.321
You know what I'm saying?

00:56:18.641 --> 00:56:22.021
That I believe in what is never seen. You understand what I'm saying?

00:56:22.221 --> 00:56:25.041
So, you know, year after year, brother, it's our year. I mean,

00:56:25.061 --> 00:56:26.661
that's what we do every year. We're all like, hey, it's our year.

00:56:26.761 --> 00:56:29.841
It's our year. And, you know, here we are. So I have faith, brother. I have faith.

00:56:30.601 --> 00:56:35.621
Yeah. Well, you know, being a Chicago sports fan, period, that's always the

00:56:35.621 --> 00:56:37.461
mantra to the accident and do it. So.

00:56:38.061 --> 00:56:42.941
Exactly. But what I like to do to kind of get the interview going,

00:56:42.961 --> 00:56:45.641
I like to break the ice. So there's a couple of things I do.

00:56:46.241 --> 00:56:53.061
First thing is I offer a quote to the guest. So this is your quote. What I hear, I forget.

00:56:53.561 --> 00:56:59.221
What I see, I remember. And what I do, I understand. What does that quote mean to you?

00:57:00.324 --> 00:57:06.184
Wow, you've definitely done your research, man. That is a Chinese proverb that

00:57:06.184 --> 00:57:09.564
is my philosophy as an educator.

00:57:10.024 --> 00:57:14.184
And so my main work is education. I won't get into all that,

00:57:14.304 --> 00:57:20.244
but I manifest that through some artistic work and through speaking and that sort of thing.

00:57:20.344 --> 00:57:26.764
But at the core, I'm an educator. And so that proverb essentially says that

00:57:26.764 --> 00:57:33.504
if you want to transform people in an educational space, you can't just talk at them.

00:57:33.944 --> 00:57:41.644
What I hear, I forget. What I see, I remember. So for me, it is clear that when someone,

00:57:42.124 --> 00:57:47.284
let's say I put a play on stage, they will remember the history and the lessons

00:57:47.284 --> 00:57:52.844
that I'm putting through the theater in a more significant way than if I were just speaking, right?

00:57:53.344 --> 00:57:58.384
And then, but the doing, right? The doing is where the real transformation happens.

00:57:58.624 --> 00:58:05.364
I actually did my dissertation on the impact of theater on educational experiences.

00:58:05.364 --> 00:58:10.544
And what I realized is that I interviewed hundreds of people that had come see

00:58:10.544 --> 00:58:15.204
my shows, but the people that were in the show were transformed more than the

00:58:15.204 --> 00:58:19.984
people who were performing through my 1619 work with the historic production that we do.

00:58:20.204 --> 00:58:23.484
And so what I realized is, is that people can see and learn,

00:58:23.704 --> 00:58:25.224
but there's nothing like doing.

00:58:25.444 --> 00:58:29.424
There's nothing like that engaging in that sort of apprenticeship or getting

00:58:29.424 --> 00:58:31.824
your hands dirty in whatever it is that you're doing.

00:58:31.984 --> 00:58:34.884
And so for me, that is, you know, my educational philosophy.

00:58:34.884 --> 00:58:40.484
And so critical if we're going to build, you know, communities that are justice-minded,

00:58:40.704 --> 00:58:43.064
critical thinking, empathy-based communities.

00:58:43.104 --> 00:58:48.364
We got to get people hearing about what needs to happen, seeing what needs to

00:58:48.364 --> 00:58:51.124
happen, and then engaging in the work as well. Yeah.

00:58:52.944 --> 00:58:58.024
So my next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.

00:58:59.184 --> 00:59:03.324
And I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.

00:59:04.064 --> 00:59:07.884
Okay, 17. All right. So this is your question.

00:59:08.824 --> 00:59:14.624
What's something about people who see the world differently than you that you've come to appreciate?

00:59:16.424 --> 00:59:21.524
Wow, that is a tough question. That is a very, very tough question.

00:59:23.028 --> 00:59:25.048
Never had that one before, so I'm just going to need a second.

00:59:25.748 --> 00:59:30.408
People see the world different from me that I have come to appreciate. Okay, I got it. Yeah.

00:59:30.728 --> 00:59:37.448
All right. So I'm an artist and I'm an educator, but I am often around people

00:59:37.448 --> 00:59:38.848
who do not have that skill set.

00:59:40.428 --> 00:59:46.468
Their personalities are very different. They may be people who have skills of

00:59:46.468 --> 00:59:50.928
administration or may be a little bit more, you know, a little more high strung than I am.

00:59:51.028 --> 00:59:53.388
I tend to be a pretty easygoing guy, right?

00:59:53.668 --> 00:59:57.168
In terms of sort of life, because life is just happening for all of us.

00:59:57.488 --> 01:00:00.668
So I appreciate people with different skills than I have.

01:00:00.848 --> 01:00:06.608
People who are, who enjoy kind of, you know, I work in a bureaucracy as an educator.

01:00:06.848 --> 01:00:09.608
And so the bureaucracy, I always tell people I'm allergic to it,

01:00:09.628 --> 01:00:13.748
it drives me nuts and I have to, you know, give five pieces of paper and five

01:00:13.748 --> 01:00:16.768
signatures to bring in someone to talk or to do really anything.

01:00:17.368 --> 01:00:20.408
But there are people that I know who really excel in that space,

01:00:20.508 --> 01:00:23.348
and they are highly efficient in those spaces.

01:00:23.528 --> 01:00:28.728
And so what I have learned is that people who don't kind of share my view of

01:00:28.728 --> 01:00:32.728
the world in that way, and they have a different talent or different skill set,

01:00:32.888 --> 01:00:37.328
I'm always learning from them and trying to better myself in that way.

01:00:37.428 --> 01:00:40.408
And so I think that that to me would be the way that I look at it.

01:00:40.488 --> 01:00:44.068
Now, I won't get political on that question because that's a tougher question.

01:00:44.268 --> 01:00:48.928
And I'm doing actually a talk next week on political unity, right?

01:00:49.168 --> 01:00:51.108
Can you imagine that in the middle of all this craziness?

01:00:51.628 --> 01:00:56.688
And I am working hard to get my mind wrapped around how we bridge these gaps.

01:00:56.888 --> 01:00:59.808
I've done a lot of work in it, but this season has been very tough.

01:01:00.028 --> 01:01:03.688
So anyway, I'll leave it at the non-political thing. I'm sure we'll get into

01:01:03.688 --> 01:01:06.448
political thing later, but I'm going to answer your question just with that

01:01:06.448 --> 01:01:07.808
one and leave it like that.

01:01:08.568 --> 01:01:13.588
Well, if if if I had to have money on somebody that could probably pull off

01:01:13.588 --> 01:01:17.228
a political unity thing, I think I would put some safe money on you, sir.

01:01:17.468 --> 01:01:21.488
I think you might be able to make that happen. Thank you, my brother.

01:01:21.908 --> 01:01:25.568
Thank you, my brother. Who was Mrs. Gorman to you?

01:01:26.953 --> 01:01:30.953
Wow. Wow. Mrs. Gorman was my fourth grade teacher.

01:01:31.193 --> 01:01:38.653
And I remember that I was in the fourth grade when I first understood social

01:01:38.653 --> 01:01:40.453
justice and the need for social justice.

01:01:40.853 --> 01:01:47.733
I was sitting in her class and I remember thinking about just being bored in

01:01:47.733 --> 01:01:50.733
school, to be honest with you, like many kids are. I was bored.

01:01:51.293 --> 01:01:54.573
And she came in and started talking about the civil rights movement.

01:01:54.773 --> 01:01:56.333
And I immediately perked up.

01:01:56.713 --> 01:02:03.573
Because I realized, even at that age, that what people had done for us so that

01:02:03.573 --> 01:02:07.393
we could live and survive, people had died.

01:02:07.913 --> 01:02:12.053
People had died so that I could be in the seat that I was sitting in.

01:02:12.213 --> 01:02:15.973
In fourth grade, I understood that. And in fourth grade, I looked at people

01:02:15.973 --> 01:02:20.753
like Martin Luther King and Meg Evers and Fannie Lou Hamer and Rosa Parks,

01:02:20.853 --> 01:02:22.693
and they just excited me.

01:02:22.933 --> 01:02:27.793
And I just felt a sense of gratitude, like, I can't waste this.

01:02:27.893 --> 01:02:30.253
In fourth grade, I thought about this. I said, I can't waste this.

01:02:30.353 --> 01:02:33.913
Look at what these people did for me. You know, and that's really fueled my

01:02:33.913 --> 01:02:38.713
life ever since then, you know, 40 X number years later beyond that.

01:02:38.873 --> 01:02:45.773
I just look at that and say, my God, it is such an honor to live in their legacy and their footsteps.

01:02:46.053 --> 01:02:50.793
And Mrs. Gorman, by the way, was a Caucasian woman who lived in the south suburb of Chicago.

01:02:51.193 --> 01:02:54.413
I pray that she's still around with us. I hope she even still remembers me.

01:02:54.533 --> 01:02:58.793
But it's amazing what educators can do to impact you.

01:02:58.893 --> 01:03:02.073
And they don't even realize it. And so her coming in that day talking about

01:03:02.073 --> 01:03:04.153
the civil rights movement, I want to say it honestly changed my life.

01:03:04.933 --> 01:03:11.693
Yeah. As far as a teacher for me, I went to Garrett A. Morgan from the south side of Chicago.

01:03:12.053 --> 01:03:15.713
And so my second grade teacher was a lady named Mrs. Haynes.

01:03:16.693 --> 01:03:22.333
And she had written a book about black history for elementary kids. So.

01:03:23.911 --> 01:03:28.591
She she gave the book out only to a certain number of students,

01:03:28.631 --> 01:03:30.271
and I was one of the ones that got one.

01:03:31.571 --> 01:03:39.171
And, you know, reading that book and just her kind of taking an interest in

01:03:39.171 --> 01:03:42.511
me kind of shaped me the way in the direction I ended up being, too.

01:03:42.671 --> 01:03:46.331
So I agree with you about educators. Plus, my mom was a teacher.

01:03:46.551 --> 01:03:51.471
So, you know, it worked out pretty good as far as respecting teachers.

01:03:53.131 --> 01:03:59.811
You're an educator an actor and an activist which role do you cherish the most and why,

01:04:00.831 --> 01:04:07.331
sir i will never answer that question and like ask me which one of my kids are

01:04:07.331 --> 01:04:11.951
like the best right so they all are wonderful in their own way you know and

01:04:11.951 --> 01:04:16.251
so you know i may love one kid more on friday than i do on saturday because

01:04:16.251 --> 01:04:19.591
they're they're acting better than the other kid but then they flip over on Saturday,

01:04:19.711 --> 01:04:22.751
but then the other kid comes and hangs out with me on Sunday, right?

01:04:22.871 --> 01:04:27.591
So it always switches. And I think the same thing with those passions and the

01:04:27.591 --> 01:04:31.651
callings that I have as an activist, as an educator, and as an actor,

01:04:31.771 --> 01:04:34.691
and what I have found to be the most powerful

01:04:35.111 --> 01:04:38.071
tool that I've been given, and all of us have been given gifts in our lives.

01:04:38.171 --> 01:04:42.511
And I think part of our lives are just finding out what it is that the creator

01:04:42.511 --> 01:04:45.191
has given us to do and doing it and figuring it out.

01:04:45.351 --> 01:04:48.871
It's a wonderful journey, I think, that all of us have to go on.

01:04:48.931 --> 01:04:52.091
And obviously, you have found yours and what you're doing in this work.

01:04:52.411 --> 01:04:56.391
And it is critical that you are telling stories and you are inspiring people.

01:04:56.531 --> 01:05:00.131
You're elevating the discussion and elevating our communities.

01:05:00.331 --> 01:05:03.851
And so you found what you're supposed to do. And I'm sure you do other things,

01:05:03.991 --> 01:05:06.071
but this is so critical and so important.

01:05:06.351 --> 01:05:10.531
And so the melding of those, I wrote this production called 16, 19.

01:05:10.691 --> 01:05:13.451
I'd written some other plays, and I've been acting since I was 12,

01:05:13.671 --> 01:05:15.671
and you know, I've kind of done a bunch of stuff.

01:05:15.971 --> 01:05:18.511
But when I figured out that I could sit down.

01:05:19.554 --> 01:05:23.674
All my political stuff, all my artistic stuff, my faith and my activism and

01:05:23.674 --> 01:05:27.734
throw it all in one spot, I go, oh, this is this is life right here.

01:05:27.974 --> 01:05:34.374
This is this is it. And I just had sort of an epiphany, a life changing moment in that in that season.

01:05:34.574 --> 01:05:40.014
So I don't I don't separate them, brother. I really, really don't. My artistic work.

01:05:40.254 --> 01:05:45.034
I realize that I may have chosen to do the arts because I just enjoy them.

01:05:45.034 --> 01:05:49.094
But as I got older, I realized, as Malcolm X said, we don't have the luxury

01:05:49.094 --> 01:05:50.994
to fight on any one front.

01:05:51.214 --> 01:05:54.814
So everything that we're doing is a part of the struggle, right,

01:05:54.954 --> 01:05:57.654
for social elevation, for social justice.

01:05:57.914 --> 01:06:04.174
And so for me, as Amiri Baraka would say, why would you as an artist waste the

01:06:04.174 --> 01:06:08.314
opportunity that you have to impact the world? That's what art does.

01:06:08.694 --> 01:06:13.214
Art transforms. Paul Robeson talked about how artists are the gatekeepers of truth.

01:06:13.774 --> 01:06:19.254
And so as an actor, I don't have anything to say unless I bring my activism

01:06:19.254 --> 01:06:21.494
and my education to the table.

01:06:21.674 --> 01:06:25.754
And in those things, the art just becomes a tool. That's really all it is, by the way.

01:06:26.014 --> 01:06:28.254
I do what I do to get people's attention.

01:06:28.634 --> 01:06:32.854
The word educate, the word entertain, actually means just to hold one's attention.

01:06:33.074 --> 01:06:38.054
So I entertain so that people will listen to something more than just,

01:06:38.074 --> 01:06:44.154
you know, sort of my musings or whatever. And so for me, when built together

01:06:44.154 --> 01:06:46.754
perfectly, they are phenomenal.

01:06:46.954 --> 01:06:53.094
One of my artistic heroes is a late great king of pop who I have looked at,

01:06:53.234 --> 01:06:57.074
studied, loved his family for years.

01:06:57.574 --> 01:07:00.654
Gone visit the house in Gary, the king of pop for those who may not know as

01:07:00.654 --> 01:07:03.094
Michael Jackson, but gone and studied in those things.

01:07:03.094 --> 01:07:08.114
And you asking me the question whether activist, educator, or artist,

01:07:08.274 --> 01:07:12.474
actor is more significant, is like asking him whether he enjoys singing,

01:07:12.654 --> 01:07:16.614
dancing, or creating music videos more, right? They're all the same.

01:07:17.314 --> 01:07:22.934
Because he did all those things so well, he really had this unique experience.

01:07:23.641 --> 01:07:27.941
On the world. And that is what I, brother, pray to have in my life,

01:07:28.081 --> 01:07:30.441
that the years that I have here.

01:07:31.181 --> 01:07:35.761
I'll be 49 this year, and the years that I have here on this earth,

01:07:36.001 --> 01:07:40.441
I pray that, you know, I don't know how many more I'll get, but I pray that

01:07:40.441 --> 01:07:45.801
when I leave, I will have left the world a little bit better than it was before I came.

01:07:46.001 --> 01:07:49.321
And then even if I don't get to do it while I'm here, You know,

01:07:49.641 --> 01:07:53.581
Karl Marx, I was reading the Communist Manifesto of my students the other day,

01:07:54.021 --> 01:07:56.521
written in 1848 and transformed the world.

01:07:56.901 --> 01:07:59.781
Karl Marx only had 12 people at his funeral when he died.

01:08:00.341 --> 01:08:03.341
So his ideas never really took root while he was alive.

01:08:03.601 --> 01:08:09.041
But when he died, his roots, his ideology transformed the world.

01:08:09.201 --> 01:08:12.321
Whether you agree with Marxism or not, the impact is still there.

01:08:12.881 --> 01:08:17.101
And so that, my brother, is what I hope, right? That your work,

01:08:17.261 --> 01:08:18.881
your podcast will live on.

01:08:19.181 --> 01:08:22.721
You know, I still listen to folks who, you know, who are no longer with us,

01:08:22.841 --> 01:08:23.981
who've done this kind of work, right?

01:08:24.061 --> 01:08:27.521
Because it's just so powerful that my art and my writing will live on.

01:08:27.741 --> 01:08:31.941
And hopefully it will transform and impact people's minds and hearts later on.

01:08:32.101 --> 01:08:35.661
So for me, my tools, they gotta be together.

01:08:35.781 --> 01:08:40.381
They come together in a perfect symmetry and they go out hopefully to transform

01:08:40.381 --> 01:08:42.721
the world. And I spent years trying to pick.

01:08:42.921 --> 01:08:47.201
And when I got the revelation that the power was in the combination of those

01:08:47.201 --> 01:08:50.781
things, I stopped picking and would never answer that question for that reason.

01:08:52.681 --> 01:08:56.581
All right. So I'm going to throw a similar question at you. Which historical

01:08:56.581 --> 01:09:01.101
figure inspired you more, Paul Robeson or Booker T. Washington?

01:09:02.279 --> 01:09:06.719
Paul Robeson without a shadow of a doubt. Now, I actually love Booker C.

01:09:06.819 --> 01:09:08.099
Washington, love W.E.B.

01:09:09.519 --> 01:09:13.379
Dubois, and have studied them heavily. But Paul Robeson, I'm going to tell you

01:09:13.379 --> 01:09:14.199
this, this is so interesting.

01:09:15.059 --> 01:09:18.659
I feel a spiritual connection to Paul Robeson. And I'm going to tell you why.

01:09:18.959 --> 01:09:22.219
It's this crazy thing. I was born the year Paul Robeson died.

01:09:23.619 --> 01:09:30.079
I unknowingly went to the same college as Paul Robeson. The first song in my

01:09:30.079 --> 01:09:35.719
1619 production was the first song that Paul Robeson recorded in the studio.

01:09:35.819 --> 01:09:37.519
I never knew these things, by the way, okay?

01:09:38.099 --> 01:09:42.759
And so it's an old Negro spiritual called Steal Away.

01:09:43.379 --> 01:09:50.479
And the combination of sort of artistic interest and the political activism

01:09:50.479 --> 01:09:53.599
piece has always sort of been in my heart.

01:09:54.219 --> 01:09:57.779
I learned about Paul Robeson later. My mother used to teach at a high school

01:09:57.779 --> 01:10:01.339
called Paul Robeson High School. She used to take me there and let me hang out.

01:10:01.479 --> 01:10:04.059
She would substitute teach it to your point of having educated parents.

01:10:04.479 --> 01:10:08.919
My dad was a businessman. My mom was an educator and counselor and some other things.

01:10:09.399 --> 01:10:12.719
And so Paul Robeson has impacted me there.

01:10:12.879 --> 01:10:15.799
I would honestly say the artists that have impacted me the most in the world

01:10:15.799 --> 01:10:20.099
are probably, you know, Michael Jackson first and foremost in terms of just

01:10:20.099 --> 01:10:22.159
growing up in that era of what that meant.

01:10:22.799 --> 01:10:26.619
Artistically as a humanitarian sort of thing. But Paul Robeson is right there for me.

01:10:26.979 --> 01:10:32.319
And I wish his legacy was more well-known, but I understand part of the reason

01:10:32.319 --> 01:10:38.539
why his legacy is not as well-known is because he paid a significant price for his activism.

01:10:39.579 --> 01:10:44.359
And I am proud of him. And I wish more artists, people with the talent that

01:10:44.359 --> 01:10:47.399
we have, particularly people of African descent, we've got such,

01:10:47.539 --> 01:10:51.379
we lead the culture of the world, brother. We lead the culture of the world.

01:10:52.159 --> 01:10:53.819
And for me...

01:10:54.384 --> 01:10:59.564
Mary Baraka said, like, why would you do that and then not like transform people?

01:10:59.664 --> 01:11:02.984
Why would you do that or grab their attention and not do anything with it?

01:11:03.184 --> 01:11:06.064
And so when I look at someone like Paul Robeson, who, you know,

01:11:06.144 --> 01:11:10.844
found solidarity with the people in the Soviet Union and really was a champion

01:11:10.844 --> 01:11:14.164
of workers' rights and was blacklisted, right, by the U.S.

01:11:14.264 --> 01:11:18.064
Government, not allowed to perform for the last part of his life,

01:11:18.244 --> 01:11:19.824
really lost a lot of his income.

01:11:20.064 --> 01:11:25.164
He was a phenomenal, phenomenal orator he was a phenomenal phenomenal vocalist

01:11:25.164 --> 01:11:27.544
he was a phenomenal phenomenal actor.

01:11:28.524 --> 01:11:33.384
And the world should know about him and yet only you know select few of us do

01:11:33.384 --> 01:11:37.544
because i think that they have made an effort and his son said this in an interview

01:11:37.544 --> 01:11:42.344
recently i have just made an effort to to wipe out his phenomenal legacy his

01:11:42.344 --> 01:11:45.784
amazing legacy his tremendous legacy his world-changing legacy.

01:11:46.444 --> 01:11:51.004
And I am just honored to even, you know, have a piece of that,

01:11:51.084 --> 01:11:54.564
brother, just to have a piece of it and to have walked the halls of Rutgers

01:11:54.564 --> 01:11:58.144
University like he did and then to have a little bit of the artistic talent.

01:11:58.144 --> 01:12:02.404
I think he got more artistic talent than I have, you know, but I am so proud

01:12:02.404 --> 01:12:05.924
of his legacy and will continue to try to carry it out through my life.

01:12:06.004 --> 01:12:08.784
And hopefully my kids know about Paul Robeson now, and hopefully they'll carry

01:12:08.784 --> 01:12:14.204
it on in their lives to, and we keep on moving forward with artistic output

01:12:14.204 --> 01:12:17.844
that helps to bring forth justice and equality for all people.

01:12:17.984 --> 01:12:22.144
And that, I think, it was his legacy. And that's the legacy I pray to live in as well.

01:12:23.224 --> 01:12:25.764
Yeah. So when I...

01:12:26.630 --> 01:12:33.590
I started getting to research you and started getting to know a little bit about you.

01:12:33.790 --> 01:12:39.070
I mean, that, that's a name. Anytime I see people in the arts that really,

01:12:39.330 --> 01:12:45.170
especially the two people I think more is Paul Robeson and Harry Belafonte.

01:12:45.630 --> 01:12:48.990
And I've actually had the pleasure of meeting Mr.

01:12:49.070 --> 01:12:54.430
Belafonte and being on program with him, you know, Mario Van Peoples,

01:12:54.430 --> 01:12:56.830
those, those type of folks.

01:12:57.030 --> 01:13:02.730
So you're just carrying on to that tradition that really needs to be carried forward.

01:13:03.390 --> 01:13:08.770
But the real reason why I got you on, you came across my radar because Governor

01:13:08.770 --> 01:13:12.950
Pritzker put you on the Illinois Reparations Commission.

01:13:13.630 --> 01:13:18.690
And I have been, I'm just going to say this, I've been trying to get somebody

01:13:18.690 --> 01:13:23.530
on this program other than me to talk about reparations.

01:13:24.910 --> 01:13:27.730
And yeah it's and and with all the

01:13:27.730 --> 01:13:31.190
noise that's out there in social media and stuff i really

01:13:31.190 --> 01:13:33.970
wanted to get somebody on here to kind of get into it a

01:13:33.970 --> 01:13:40.050
little bit i know we can't get into it a whole lot but i noticed something in

01:13:40.050 --> 01:13:45.390
the book of numbers chapter five verses six and seven and i guess we'll use

01:13:45.390 --> 01:13:50.890
the new international version is there say to the israelites any man or woman

01:13:50.890 --> 01:13:52.790
who wrongs another in any way,

01:13:52.810 --> 01:13:55.710
and so is unfaithful to the Lord,

01:13:55.950 --> 01:13:59.470
is guilty, and must confess the sins they have committed.

01:13:59.770 --> 01:14:03.350
They must make full restitution for the wrong they have done,

01:14:03.610 --> 01:14:09.150
add a fifth of the value to it, and give it all to the person they have wronged.

01:14:09.450 --> 01:14:16.350
Do you feel there is a moral Christian obligation to provide reparations to African Americans?

01:14:18.009 --> 01:14:20.869
Now, thank you for that question. Okay, I'm definitely going to answer that one.

01:14:21.509 --> 01:14:28.849
Not only do I feel that, but I committed to making sure that consistent with

01:14:28.849 --> 01:14:34.009
our struggle historically, you know, I've written a book, I've written a paper

01:14:34.009 --> 01:14:35.109
about this particular topic.

01:14:35.249 --> 01:14:36.129
I've written a book about the

01:14:36.129 --> 01:14:40.249
larger obligations that the Christian community have to social justice.

01:14:40.449 --> 01:14:44.509
And I've written a paper extensively about that topic, reparations,

01:14:44.509 --> 01:14:52.269
answering your question. I am fully committed and fully convinced that this is a moral question.

01:14:52.989 --> 01:15:00.729
And because moral questions in our community have been led historically by people of faith, Dr.

01:15:00.849 --> 01:15:05.749
King's of the world, the Malcolm X's of the world, the Reverend Jesse Jackson's

01:15:05.749 --> 01:15:10.189
of the world, Adam Clayton Powell, all these folks, Hiram Rebels, the first U.S.

01:15:10.289 --> 01:15:14.269
Senator, African-American, all of these folks were people who came out of the

01:15:14.269 --> 01:15:15.409
church faith community.

01:15:15.429 --> 01:15:20.749
Community, tradition, and understood that the best way to organize and strategize

01:15:20.749 --> 01:15:23.489
our people is to hit them in the heart, right?

01:15:23.589 --> 01:15:26.469
Not just hit them in the minds and the pocketbooks, but to hit them in the heart.

01:15:26.569 --> 01:15:29.929
And I believe that's the only way that social change actually honestly occurs.

01:15:30.249 --> 01:15:32.909
You've got to connect with people's sense of humanity.

01:15:33.309 --> 01:15:39.369
And there's no better way or place or space to do that than the church community.

01:15:39.489 --> 01:15:44.929
And so the reparations this question particularly is a very simple question, okay?

01:15:46.509 --> 01:15:51.509
And I think that people take different approaches to this, but here's the approach that I have taken.

01:15:52.509 --> 01:15:57.069
The average European American family, family of European descent,

01:15:57.289 --> 01:16:01.609
I call them European Americans rather than white, and I call us Americans of

01:16:01.609 --> 01:16:02.929
African descent rather than black.

01:16:03.209 --> 01:16:05.189
If you want to hear about that, I'll tell you about that later,

01:16:05.309 --> 01:16:07.469
but I'll keep on rolling, okay? Unless you do.

01:16:08.129 --> 01:16:14.829
So the average European-American family is worth 10 times what the average African-American

01:16:14.829 --> 01:16:18.149
family is worth 10 times, right? That's today in 2025.

01:16:18.729 --> 01:16:22.429
There was an economic study that showed that if nothing is done,

01:16:22.829 --> 01:16:28.529
that it would take 228 years for that gap to close.

01:16:28.789 --> 01:16:34.849
Okay, 228 years. So we're talking about, you know, we're talking about generations

01:16:34.849 --> 01:16:37.849
upon generations upon generations upon generations upon generations upon generations.

01:16:39.889 --> 01:16:45.289
And the question becomes, why did this happen? This is the fundamental question we must ask.

01:16:45.489 --> 01:16:49.689
Because if we don't ask this question, by the way, we make assumptions about

01:16:49.689 --> 01:16:55.289
people's behavior and their capabilities based on their race.

01:16:55.789 --> 01:16:59.069
We drive through cities like Chicago, every major city in the country,

01:16:59.169 --> 01:17:02.309
by the way, and we see people who are black and brown, who are struggling in life.

01:17:02.429 --> 01:17:07.749
And we see people who are not black and brown. We see there's poverty in their communities as well.

01:17:08.409 --> 01:17:12.289
But when we see wealth, American wealth, we see it looking sort of one way.

01:17:12.529 --> 01:17:16.449
So we drive around these communities, and if you don't ever go back and think.

01:17:17.763 --> 01:17:23.283
The great advantages that were given to people of European descent over African

01:17:23.283 --> 01:17:26.123
descent, you'll make racist assumptions in many ways.

01:17:26.343 --> 01:17:29.403
I mean, there's just no other, there's really only two options on this, by the way.

01:17:29.923 --> 01:17:34.243
Either African Americans have been systemically discriminated against in a way

01:17:34.243 --> 01:17:37.243
that has put us in the position that we're in, or we're just lazy,

01:17:37.443 --> 01:17:39.883
violent, criminal, you name it.

01:17:40.043 --> 01:17:42.403
Those are the only two options you have, by the way, okay?

01:17:42.883 --> 01:17:47.383
And so, The ignorance of people, this is why empathy and critical thinking are

01:17:47.383 --> 01:17:51.703
the two most important qualities in our world today that are deeply,

01:17:51.863 --> 01:17:53.923
desperately missing, empathy and critical thinking,

01:17:54.183 --> 01:17:58.503
those will lead you to the conclusion that there's something going on here.

01:17:58.783 --> 01:18:00.663
Let's talk a little bit about how we got here.

01:18:01.083 --> 01:18:06.283
We had 250 years of slavery in this country, ended through the Emancipation

01:18:06.283 --> 01:18:11.223
Proclamation and the beginning of the Reconstruction era in 1865.

01:18:12.043 --> 01:18:17.583
1865 to 1877, the United States government in certain ways began to move on

01:18:17.583 --> 01:18:20.223
Lincoln's promise for 40 acres and a mule.

01:18:21.103 --> 01:18:25.023
And yet, after Lincoln died, the commitment to what he had put forward,

01:18:25.243 --> 01:18:29.323
recognizing, not through any particular love for people of African descent,

01:18:29.623 --> 01:18:33.143
but just recognizing that you cannot enslave people for 20, 50 years,

01:18:33.283 --> 01:18:35.983
just drop them off on the corner and assume that they're going to figure it out.

01:18:35.983 --> 01:18:40.863
They're going to create, they're going to create, they're not going to create,

01:18:40.943 --> 01:18:41.983
but they're going to exist in

01:18:41.983 --> 01:18:47.883
conditions that are, there's no ability to progress in that space, right?

01:18:47.983 --> 01:18:51.983
So you have freedom on paper, but without economic freedom, the freedom to eat,

01:18:52.103 --> 01:18:56.523
the freedom to live, the freedom to, the ability to take care of yourself, what is freedom, right?

01:18:56.543 --> 01:19:01.263
It's like someone being released from prison and they're dropped off on the

01:19:01.263 --> 01:19:02.503
corner with nothing, right?

01:19:02.503 --> 01:19:07.883
The recidivism rates in our country is 70% for this reason, because we don't

01:19:07.883 --> 01:19:12.643
set people up well to come out of the prison environment and live their lives.

01:19:12.823 --> 01:19:14.243
And so many of them go back.

01:19:14.723 --> 01:19:19.723
This is our story as African Americans. Now, I'm going to tell you real quickly

01:19:19.723 --> 01:19:22.843
as I go through this story, I still believe it's a story of hope.

01:19:22.943 --> 01:19:26.083
You mentioned the Bible and you mentioned faith on this question.

01:19:26.083 --> 01:19:30.423
And I, in my book, write that we are kind of akin to the story of Joseph,

01:19:30.723 --> 01:19:36.443
that the story of Joseph, if people are familiar with it, is a story of wrongful imprisonment.

01:19:36.823 --> 01:19:42.303
And ultimately, though, that wrongful imprisonment and that really significant

01:19:42.303 --> 01:19:46.843
injustice that occurred to him was something that actually produced violence.

01:19:47.552 --> 01:19:51.352
Phenomenal fruit in the sense that he was put in a position later on in life

01:19:51.352 --> 01:19:52.752
where he still had influence.

01:19:53.332 --> 01:19:57.112
African-Americans have a $1 trillion economy, by the way, even in a country

01:19:57.112 --> 01:19:59.112
that's oppressed them for generations.

01:19:59.572 --> 01:20:05.912
So we do have influence. We do have some significant ability to move the needle

01:20:05.912 --> 01:20:07.412
politically, socially, and otherwise.

01:20:07.872 --> 01:20:12.932
And so in that, I do believe this is a story of hope. So let's flipping back to the Reconstruction.

01:20:13.352 --> 01:20:18.992
So we get through the Reconstruction. the southern states essentially win after

01:20:18.992 --> 01:20:23.892
they lose the Civil War because what happens for them is that Johnson does not

01:20:23.892 --> 01:20:28.332
punish them, that Lincoln had put forth that to get back into the Union,

01:20:28.652 --> 01:20:31.772
something like 10 to 20 percent of them had to pledge allegiance back to the

01:20:31.772 --> 01:20:33.712
United States. Johnson wiped that away.

01:20:34.372 --> 01:20:38.512
In 1877, there was a great compromise, 1877, between Samuel L.

01:20:38.612 --> 01:20:39.992
Tilden and Rutherford B.

01:20:40.112 --> 01:20:42.592
Hayes, in which Rutherford B. Hayes won the presidency. They couldn't figure

01:20:42.592 --> 01:20:44.052
who'd won the presidency for six months.

01:20:44.272 --> 01:20:48.112
So they meet in this hotel in Washington, D.C., actually owned by a black man. It's a crazy story.

01:20:48.552 --> 01:20:51.332
And they meet in this hotel in Washington, D.C., and Samuel L.

01:20:51.452 --> 01:20:54.892
Tilden says to Rutherford B. Hayes, I will give you the presidency and we'll

01:20:54.892 --> 01:20:56.292
end all this if you give me the South.

01:20:57.032 --> 01:21:02.312
And he says, great. So he removes all the federal troops overnight and that ushers in 100 years.

01:21:03.406 --> 01:21:07.586
To 100 years of Jim Crow segregation and legally sanctioned terror, right?

01:21:07.866 --> 01:21:13.006
So now we fast forward to 1963, the Civil Rights Act, 64 Civil Rights Act,

01:21:13.366 --> 01:21:16.966
1965, the Voting Rights Act, 1968, the Housing Rights Act.

01:21:17.206 --> 01:21:19.546
Honestly, the democracy, I would say, really started there.

01:21:20.206 --> 01:21:24.026
I would suggest that prior to the 1960s with no federally guaranteed right to

01:21:24.026 --> 01:21:26.626
vote or housing, that we didn't have a democracy.

01:21:27.146 --> 01:21:32.466
So our democracy is, what, 70 years old now, 60, 70 years old, okay, in reality?

01:21:33.006 --> 01:21:36.066
And so we start the clock there with us.

01:21:36.306 --> 01:21:40.126
But we start the clock without ever getting these reparations done.

01:21:40.266 --> 01:21:45.186
Now, by the way, the federal government gave out reparations in small numbers

01:21:45.186 --> 01:21:49.406
and rescinded those after allowing the South to do what they did.

01:21:49.406 --> 01:21:54.926
But they also did give reparations to white slave owners in Washington, D.C., particularly,

01:21:55.186 --> 01:21:59.806
to compensate them for the loss of their enslaved, just like happened to the

01:21:59.806 --> 01:22:02.886
Haitians, which is why Haiti is in such a horrible condition right now,

01:22:02.946 --> 01:22:05.406
because they were they pay reparations to the French.

01:22:05.726 --> 01:22:10.766
So it was it was the opposite of justice, brother. It was reverse justice.

01:22:10.986 --> 01:22:13.486
Right. You talk about reverse discrimination. There you go right there.

01:22:13.646 --> 01:22:17.546
The other way that they talk about it doesn't exist. But this is true for reverse discrimination.

01:22:18.006 --> 01:22:23.126
And so we get to a place where the 60s and 70s, we start the clock.

01:22:23.586 --> 01:22:26.426
We still have never dealt with this wealth gap. We still never dealt with this inequality.

01:22:26.746 --> 01:22:30.206
We still never dealt with the fact that the Homestead Act, GI Bill,

01:22:30.386 --> 01:22:34.046
that the government is subsidizing white families to actually build wealth and

01:22:34.046 --> 01:22:39.026
own land and housing for generations. And African-Americans never got any of that.

01:22:39.346 --> 01:22:43.246
In fact, places like Black Wall Street, once again, reverse discrimination.

01:22:43.266 --> 01:22:44.766
We said, OK, well, we don't have anything.

01:22:44.886 --> 01:22:47.446
We're going to build our own communities. and the federal government bombs that

01:22:47.446 --> 01:22:49.446
community and works against all these things.

01:22:49.546 --> 01:22:54.126
And you have decades of redlining, right, and contract buying in which housing

01:22:54.126 --> 01:22:57.706
African-Americans are paying for years on houses that they never actually own.

01:22:57.846 --> 01:23:03.166
So the robbing and the theft of wealth. So we get to where we are today.

01:23:04.180 --> 01:23:06.240
And we've never addressed that. We've never done anything about it.

01:23:06.300 --> 01:23:09.040
By the way, the Reparance Commission we have, I have to say this,

01:23:09.980 --> 01:23:16.000
honestly, is but a drop in the bucket for what was promised from the federal government.

01:23:16.140 --> 01:23:19.340
Because the federal government never did or never fulfilled this promise,

01:23:20.280 --> 01:23:22.120
states have had to pick it up. When did they pick it up?

01:23:23.340 --> 01:23:26.980
2021, brother. Right? We're talking from 1865 to 2021.

01:23:27.260 --> 01:23:30.040
We don't have one single state that picked up this bill.

01:23:30.220 --> 01:23:33.160
One single federal entity that decided we're going to do this.

01:23:33.160 --> 01:23:35.580
Now, many people say, oh, well, what about the war on poverty?

01:23:35.720 --> 01:23:39.300
What about all of these things that were, you know, given to you guys through

01:23:39.300 --> 01:23:40.680
affirmative action, et cetera, et cetera?

01:23:40.720 --> 01:23:43.780
We understand affirmative action was not particularly for black people.

01:23:44.260 --> 01:23:47.420
We understand the war on poverty was not particularly for black people.

01:23:47.560 --> 01:23:51.680
And we understand that not just that it wasn't for them on paper,

01:23:51.680 --> 01:23:56.460
it did not go to them in reality either.

01:23:57.120 --> 01:24:00.700
And we look at, say, affirmative action, number one, recipients of affirmative

01:24:00.700 --> 01:24:04.680
action are women of Caucasian European descent.

01:24:05.680 --> 01:24:09.820
So we've never fixed this. We've never dealt with it. And I just always talk

01:24:09.820 --> 01:24:11.840
a lot about inequality is not going to fix itself.

01:24:11.960 --> 01:24:14.620
Dr. King said we can't have a first-class nation with second-class citizens.

01:24:14.880 --> 01:24:18.100
At some point, these issues affect everyone. That's why I'm very much around.

01:24:18.340 --> 01:24:19.660
That's what I teach everywhere I go.

01:24:20.180 --> 01:24:23.720
You know, people who don't look like me, this stuff's going to affect you if you don't deal with it.

01:24:24.220 --> 01:24:27.940
And it's better for all of us. And so California, first state,

01:24:28.340 --> 01:24:32.000
post George Floyd, Illinois, second state, New York, third state,

01:24:32.120 --> 01:24:35.120
only three states in the union that have decided they're going to pick up the

01:24:35.120 --> 01:24:37.380
reparations banner themselves and try to do something.

01:24:37.440 --> 01:24:42.000
Now, there have been localities, Edmonds, Illinois, Asheville, North Carolina.

01:24:42.200 --> 01:24:44.780
There's a county in Los Angeles, a Los Angeles area.

01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:47.780
They all picked up their own small reparations programs.

01:24:48.320 --> 01:24:54.380
But this is where we are, sir. And even if we don't get back to slavery on this question,

01:24:54.720 --> 01:25:00.180
which we should, but even if we don't, we have enough injustice that has occurred

01:25:00.180 --> 01:25:04.480
towards people of African descent in the last 100 years, particularly around

01:25:04.480 --> 01:25:06.740
housing, wealth, and those sorts of things.

01:25:06.740 --> 01:25:12.740
We could spend the next 100 years going through and rectifying and dealing with

01:25:12.740 --> 01:25:14.040
the injustices that exist.

01:25:14.180 --> 01:25:16.420
And yes, I think it's a biblical directive.

01:25:17.080 --> 01:25:20.720
And I think we got a lot of work to do, brother. And I'm happy to be alive during

01:25:20.720 --> 01:25:24.560
a time when this is happening, because I do believe that if Malcolm X was living

01:25:24.560 --> 01:25:28.200
and Maca Evers was living and Dr. King, this is what they'd be doing.

01:25:29.000 --> 01:25:33.560
Yeah. And I greatly appreciate the detail in which you talked about that,

01:25:33.680 --> 01:25:39.780
because, you know, I've tried to deal with that on the show and, you know,

01:25:40.000 --> 01:25:46.660
like one of the facts was that the Freedmen's Bureau that was set up to be that financial support.

01:25:48.229 --> 01:25:51.649
And the Freeman's Bank and all that, that fell under the Department of War.

01:25:52.569 --> 01:25:58.269
So when the Democrats in Congress wanted to cut the budget under the Department

01:25:58.269 --> 01:26:01.229
of War, that's basically when the Freeman Bureau ended.

01:26:01.369 --> 01:26:05.349
And that kind of added to the downward spiral, as long as what you said,

01:26:05.689 --> 01:26:10.909
Andrew Johnson, you know, waiving the loyalty clause and all that kind of stuff.

01:26:12.309 --> 01:26:19.409
What is your vision of reparations? Because, you know, I always refer people

01:26:19.409 --> 01:26:21.469
to the Dave Chappelle skit, right?

01:26:21.709 --> 01:26:27.649
And I think a lot of people feel that that Dave Chappelle skit is really what black people want.

01:26:28.269 --> 01:26:32.249
And, you know, it's like, and

01:26:32.249 --> 01:26:36.649
then we had the controversy in San Francisco where the president of NAACP,

01:26:36.809 --> 01:26:40.489
they were floating around giving a check about like, I think,

01:26:40.629 --> 01:26:44.669
5 million to descendants of slaves in California specifically.

01:26:45.269 --> 01:26:49.309
And he said, I don't want a $5 million check. I want X, Y, and Z done.

01:26:49.749 --> 01:26:54.749
So you being on that commission, what is your vision? What would be success

01:26:54.749 --> 01:26:56.949
to you as far as reparations go?

01:26:57.769 --> 01:27:01.829
Yeah. Thank you for this. And I want to say very clearly, I do not speak on

01:27:01.829 --> 01:27:03.869
behalf of the commission in this interview.

01:27:04.089 --> 01:27:05.649
It is a state commission, so they

01:27:05.649 --> 01:27:10.669
have lots of state bureaucratic media restrictions and things like that.

01:27:10.789 --> 01:27:15.309
So I am speaking as Ted Williams here. and Ted Williams' vision.

01:27:15.609 --> 01:27:22.289
I realize the civil rights movement, we marched, we fought, we did all these various things.

01:27:22.529 --> 01:27:28.409
But if you really look at the movement, the courts were a phenomenal,

01:27:28.709 --> 01:27:33.829
powerful, effective place that progress occurred.

01:27:34.209 --> 01:27:39.109
When you think about particularly court cases like Brown versus the Board of

01:27:39.109 --> 01:27:43.329
Education, and then many of the cases that followed sort of around discrimination.

01:27:44.209 --> 01:27:51.889
I would say that we miss the core of the movement if we miss the power of the courts.

01:27:52.849 --> 01:27:54.829
So with where we are today.

01:27:56.016 --> 01:27:59.376
Look at this in multiple ways. Do we go for federal reparations,

01:27:59.496 --> 01:28:03.136
which we can't even get DEI programs right now at the federal level,

01:28:03.156 --> 01:28:07.416
so you can forget about that and just be realistic about the political wins.

01:28:07.556 --> 01:28:10.536
Although there are a few, interestingly enough, a few conservatives,

01:28:11.336 --> 01:28:14.176
people like Ann Coulter, by the way, political commentators,

01:28:14.276 --> 01:28:19.176
who is about as far right and inflammatory in her language as she goes,

01:28:19.336 --> 01:28:21.996
who is a real firm proponent of reparations.

01:28:22.656 --> 01:28:26.616
Also, Alan Keyes, who ran for the U.S.

01:28:26.676 --> 01:28:32.676
Senate and was an ambassador, and he is right-wing, African-American.

01:28:33.036 --> 01:28:37.416
He supports reparations as well, which I think is an interesting take on this issue.

01:28:37.936 --> 01:28:43.476
And so I don't have much hope at the federal level, at least right now.

01:28:43.776 --> 01:28:48.076
But I do have hope for the courts and the localities.

01:28:48.916 --> 01:28:54.116
What Everson did was they had a fund, a reparations fund, and they gave out

01:28:54.116 --> 01:28:59.576
payments to people whose housing had been devalued through contract buying,

01:28:59.776 --> 01:29:00.976
through discriminatory practices.

01:29:01.816 --> 01:29:06.276
Asheville, North Carolina, did a similar reparations program that was housing specific.

01:29:06.556 --> 01:29:11.476
And I believe it's Manhattan Beach in California where there was a family who,

01:29:11.656 --> 01:29:16.556
through eminent domain, African-American family lost their home on beachfront property.

01:29:16.556 --> 01:29:22.076
And their settlement was $20 million just recently to get their land back.

01:29:22.516 --> 01:29:26.576
I think that there are literally, brother, thousands of cases like that,

01:29:26.796 --> 01:29:32.876
thousands throughout this country that could go to people who are living still today.

01:29:33.856 --> 01:29:37.496
So see, the opposition to reparations, they want to come and talk about,

01:29:37.736 --> 01:29:42.636
well, you know, it was so long ago and how can we figure out which descendants

01:29:42.636 --> 01:29:47.176
should get it and why should we give everybody a check because they're just going to blow it.

01:29:47.656 --> 01:29:52.196
Okay, all those arguments, I can put all those arguments in a bucket and leave

01:29:52.196 --> 01:29:54.336
them over there and say, you know what, you can have all those arguments.

01:29:55.620 --> 01:30:00.760
Cannot have is the fact that over the last 100 years, like for instance,

01:30:00.960 --> 01:30:05.400
contract buying on the south and west side of Chicago, there was an economic

01:30:05.400 --> 01:30:08.140
study that said that the cost of it was close to $3 billion.

01:30:08.680 --> 01:30:10.600
And this is in the last 60 years.

01:30:11.200 --> 01:30:14.040
So don't tell me we can't do anything about that, right?

01:30:14.260 --> 01:30:19.260
Don't tell me that we cannot in this capitalist system address the discrimination

01:30:19.260 --> 01:30:24.440
that has occurred for people of African descent very specifically, very directly.

01:30:25.540 --> 01:30:30.280
To people who are either still alive or their children are still alive. We can start there.

01:30:30.780 --> 01:30:33.260
You want to do any of the slaves? Fine, we ain't gonna talk about it.

01:30:33.460 --> 01:30:35.620
We start there and then we start moving backwards.

01:30:36.040 --> 01:30:39.880
And that to me is our path. That to me is success, brother. If I could see that

01:30:39.880 --> 01:30:41.180
happen in my lifetime, that would be success.

01:30:41.320 --> 01:30:44.620
I think we will get to where we want to go ultimately.

01:30:45.200 --> 01:30:47.500
And that's the strategy thing for me. And not everybody agrees,

01:30:47.660 --> 01:30:49.920
by the way. There are people in the movement that don't agree with me,

01:30:50.000 --> 01:30:51.740
and that's okay. You know, it's okay.

01:30:52.200 --> 01:30:58.120
But I'm very practical in this. I know that there is not necessarily the kind

01:30:58.120 --> 01:31:00.340
of national appetite for what we're talking about.

01:31:00.880 --> 01:31:03.800
And it doesn't have to be, by the way. I mean, there's not always an appetite

01:31:03.800 --> 01:31:07.460
for legislation. Legislation passes every day that people, there's not an appetite for.

01:31:07.760 --> 01:31:11.320
So I'm not suggesting that. But I am saying that what we can do is we can build

01:31:11.320 --> 01:31:15.140
a movement of justice, biblical justice, as we've talked about.

01:31:15.460 --> 01:31:21.920
But how can you argue? How can anyone argue? How can anyone argue with reparations

01:31:21.920 --> 01:31:26.600
for Jim Crow segregation, reparations for redlining, reparations for contract

01:31:26.600 --> 01:31:28.980
buying, literally for people who are still alive?

01:31:29.140 --> 01:31:31.280
How on earth could you possibly argue against that?

01:31:31.600 --> 01:31:35.380
And then from there, we get the winds that will move us further back into history.

01:31:35.540 --> 01:31:39.040
And yes, I think as well, one of the things that our reparations commission,

01:31:39.320 --> 01:31:41.900
well, actually, this is not officially us, so let me say this.

01:31:41.900 --> 01:31:49.280
But part of what we have had discussions about is this question of disclosure,

01:31:49.460 --> 01:31:52.980
this disclosure bill, the slavery era disclosure bill, that we would hold—.

01:31:54.090 --> 01:31:58.430
Companies accountable who have built their wealth off of slavery.

01:31:59.190 --> 01:32:03.390
And that, my friend, is another win that I think that we should be going for

01:32:03.390 --> 01:32:06.410
in our community. I don't think you can argue that either.

01:32:07.150 --> 01:32:10.510
Now, what happens with those funds, we could have many conversations about,

01:32:10.610 --> 01:32:11.930
and I'm totally fine with that.

01:32:12.510 --> 01:32:16.630
Some people are straight for cash payments. Some people are for educational,

01:32:17.090 --> 01:32:20.410
free education. Some people are for, you know, housing investments.

01:32:21.050 --> 01:32:24.390
You know, I honestly could go anyway on a lot of those.

01:32:24.690 --> 01:32:31.910
But what I can't do is play the game and agree to the idea that we can't afford

01:32:31.910 --> 01:32:36.010
it and that we can't do justice by people. That I cannot do.

01:32:37.650 --> 01:32:43.070
Elon Musk makes, what is it, $8 million a day off the federal government.

01:32:43.570 --> 01:32:51.750
Our defense budget is $800 billion a year, I don't have any issues withholding

01:32:51.750 --> 01:32:54.090
us to paying for things that are worthwhile.

01:32:54.290 --> 01:32:55.990
And let me say this in closing on that, brother.

01:32:56.570 --> 01:33:02.950
If we don't, if we don't, we are only strong as our weakest link in this country.

01:33:03.030 --> 01:33:08.270
For some reason, we have this notion, this idea, and this capitalist society

01:33:08.270 --> 01:33:13.830
that has enjoyed white supremacy as well, that we can have a great country and

01:33:13.830 --> 01:33:15.730
leave large swaths of the country behind.

01:33:17.649 --> 01:33:21.309
Chinese don't believe that, by the way. The Japanese don't believe that, by the way.

01:33:21.929 --> 01:33:25.269
I think that there are many countries, you can go to the Netherlands,

01:33:25.369 --> 01:33:30.049
other places, that don't look at their side and go, shoot, we have people to waste.

01:33:30.649 --> 01:33:33.909
The investments that we make in education, infrastructure, all those things,

01:33:34.349 --> 01:33:37.609
for people who have been marginalized historically will actually only make the

01:33:37.609 --> 01:33:38.609
country better as a whole.

01:33:39.469 --> 01:33:44.489
That's what our current leadership does not understand. And that's what I think

01:33:44.489 --> 01:33:48.129
that if we don't figure that out, we're all going to go down with the ship.

01:33:48.509 --> 01:33:54.849
And that's why reparations and all policies that push forth diversity,

01:33:55.189 --> 01:34:00.349
equity, and inclusion are good for the entire country, not just for us.

01:34:01.389 --> 01:34:04.629
Yeah. And I greatly appreciate that.

01:34:04.769 --> 01:34:08.449
And this is something that we could have a discussion for a long time,

01:34:08.649 --> 01:34:11.709
and so I thank you for that.

01:34:12.009 --> 01:34:21.409
Knowing that time is a constraint, let me just close out and have you plug something

01:34:21.409 --> 01:34:24.689
and kind of talk about it at the same time.

01:34:24.849 --> 01:34:29.409
You created this musical called 1619, The Journey of People.

01:34:30.109 --> 01:34:33.349
So kind of talk about what inspired you to create it.

01:34:33.589 --> 01:34:39.809
Are you still doing it? How can people, you know, get the play or the musical

01:34:39.809 --> 01:34:42.629
to be performed where they are?

01:34:42.769 --> 01:34:46.889
And also, how can people get in touch with you? And we'll just close out like that.

01:34:47.649 --> 01:34:52.209
Thank you so much for that question. And I am, once again, just honored to be with you today.

01:34:52.529 --> 01:34:57.169
I can tell from our interaction that these are conversations that you have been

01:34:57.169 --> 01:34:59.229
having and you're thinking deeply about.

01:34:59.629 --> 01:35:02.669
And we need to raise the consciousness of our people.

01:35:02.989 --> 01:35:06.189
And so I am grateful. And when I say our people, I mean people who look like

01:35:06.189 --> 01:35:08.249
you and I, but I mean Americans as a whole.

01:35:09.222 --> 01:35:13.782
Black history is American history. And so one of the things that we promote

01:35:13.782 --> 01:35:18.262
in our production is the idea that everyone needs to know about this history.

01:35:18.862 --> 01:35:23.622
We have had people in our 1619 production that go through 400 years of history

01:35:23.622 --> 01:35:26.182
in two hours in various ways.

01:35:26.662 --> 01:35:30.142
But we've had many people who don't look like you or I come to the show,

01:35:30.222 --> 01:35:35.822
and it has been an introduction for them, a palatable introduction for them

01:35:35.822 --> 01:35:40.262
to sit in a theater space and to deal with these issues that we know exist.

01:35:40.682 --> 01:35:45.602
And so I'm honored to be able to do that. Back in 2019, we were commemorating

01:35:45.602 --> 01:35:50.042
the 400-year anniversary of the first 20 enslaved Africans who arrived on the

01:35:50.042 --> 01:35:53.622
shores of Point Comfort, Virginia, August 20th, 1619.

01:35:54.342 --> 01:35:58.082
And that commemoration, there were many commemorations across the country.

01:35:58.982 --> 01:36:02.902
We, myself, I got inspired to create this production.

01:36:03.102 --> 01:36:07.322
I was going to do something academic and I wanted to create a production,

01:36:07.522 --> 01:36:11.542
which, and I'm working on another one around some larger questions in America

01:36:11.542 --> 01:36:15.682
to commemorate sort of where we are in this moment in American history.

01:36:16.202 --> 01:36:19.722
But I wrote this production and started immediately.

01:36:20.082 --> 01:36:23.382
There was an immediate demand for it, which I didn't realize that existed.

01:36:23.542 --> 01:36:28.742
We performed it a couple of times and I had college is calling me and locality is calling me.

01:36:29.102 --> 01:36:31.662
And to be honest with you, brother, every time I sit down and go,

01:36:31.782 --> 01:36:34.862
okay, we're kind of, you know, with the pandemic hit and, you know,

01:36:34.922 --> 01:36:36.442
I had an injury this year.

01:36:36.562 --> 01:36:39.482
I broke my collarbone. So I was down for four months on that.

01:36:39.962 --> 01:36:43.582
And people still calling. They're still calling. So we just had a very busy

01:36:43.582 --> 01:36:48.082
Black History Month and I'm booked out for Juneteenth already because people

01:36:48.082 --> 01:36:52.642
are, they're calling and they want to experience this and understand this.

01:36:52.962 --> 01:36:57.962
What we do is I have tried to create a production that was accessible for everyone

01:36:57.962 --> 01:37:03.882
and that I'm a firm believer artistically that you throw a lot of things on the wall.

01:37:04.830 --> 01:37:08.130
And there's something in it for everybody. So we've got hip-hop in the show.

01:37:08.290 --> 01:37:11.650
We've got jazz in the show. We've got some blues numbers in the show.

01:37:12.050 --> 01:37:15.190
We have some West African dance numbers in the show.

01:37:15.610 --> 01:37:17.590
We have a little classical music.

01:37:18.170 --> 01:37:20.350
We just go on this sensory experience.

01:37:20.930 --> 01:37:23.530
We hit people in their hearts. We hit them with their minds,

01:37:23.850 --> 01:37:24.910
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

01:37:25.190 --> 01:37:29.070
And we've been pretty successful. We were nominated for an award here in Chicago

01:37:29.070 --> 01:37:33.750
for the Black Theater Alliance Awards, the best musical. We've traveled many, many places.

01:37:34.230 --> 01:37:37.270
We've done residencies at various theaters throughout Chicago.

01:37:37.590 --> 01:37:38.770
We've traveled outside of that.

01:37:38.910 --> 01:37:43.910
We've been on TV a bunch of times. And we have just been sharing this information.

01:37:44.050 --> 01:37:47.070
What has been most powerful to me in all of this?

01:37:47.110 --> 01:37:51.090
And I only do the full production with 20 people, but I also,

01:37:51.250 --> 01:37:54.450
people call me, can you just come talk about the show and do a one person?

01:37:54.610 --> 01:37:57.350
I'm the great. And I do monologues. I'm in the show as well.

01:37:57.410 --> 01:37:58.430
So I do monologues from that.

01:37:58.890 --> 01:38:02.410
What's been most impactful to me has been

01:38:02.410 --> 01:38:07.770
to see how people connect with the history that we talk about in a personal

01:38:07.770 --> 01:38:11.110
way that has nothing to do with us by the way so i realized very quickly this

01:38:11.110 --> 01:38:15.130
show is not about us this show is about this history so we have a section on

01:38:15.130 --> 01:38:21.470
the great migration in chicago and i have people who you know because you know our our folks tend to,

01:38:22.090 --> 01:38:26.510
you know we tend to be very verbal in in in spaces and so we'll be on stage

01:38:26.510 --> 01:38:29.850
and i'll say something and some of the audience will yell something out that

01:38:29.850 --> 01:38:31.190
they, you know, experience or whatever.

01:38:32.260 --> 01:38:36.420
And we talked about Dr. King's journey through Chicago, through Marquette Park,

01:38:36.500 --> 01:38:38.800
when he was pelted with rocks and things like that.

01:38:39.340 --> 01:38:42.080
And we had people that were there, you know.

01:38:42.940 --> 01:38:48.020
And that meant a lot to me, you know. And I could hear them. And they respond.

01:38:48.340 --> 01:38:52.080
You know, we connected with Nicole Hannah-Jones for the 1619 Project out of New York.

01:38:52.580 --> 01:38:55.640
And I've been on a panel with her, got to interview her, that sort of thing.

01:38:56.000 --> 01:39:01.420
And there was a connection there. Reverend Jesse Jackson and Judge Mathis have

01:39:01.420 --> 01:39:06.120
seen our work, and there was a strong connection there and just an appreciation there.

01:39:06.420 --> 01:39:09.480
We also met when we performed at Hampton University.

01:39:09.980 --> 01:39:13.960
The Tucker family, who is historically linked to that first,

01:39:14.580 --> 01:39:18.280
they can draw their lineage back to those first 20 enslaved Africans very cleanly

01:39:18.280 --> 01:39:20.420
and very clearly. They have a whole historic society.

01:39:20.820 --> 01:39:24.920
They came to our show, and I realized within the first couple months,

01:39:24.940 --> 01:39:26.020
we've been doing a show for five years.

01:39:26.340 --> 01:39:29.860
I remember I realized, actually six years now, I realized in the first couple

01:39:29.860 --> 01:39:33.460
months that this history was so much bigger than us. And so I'm so grateful to do it.

01:39:33.820 --> 01:39:38.840
You can check out 1619 Musical or probably more easily, you can find me.

01:39:39.140 --> 01:39:41.900
And so I'm typically the third. I'm on all this, mostly social media sites.

01:39:42.580 --> 01:39:50.680
And you can hit me on social media or you can see where we We're doing small,

01:39:50.920 --> 01:39:53.640
local, sort of municipality production.

01:39:53.920 --> 01:39:59.720
So I've got One City's got us doing their outdoor festival for Juneteenth and things like that.

01:40:00.120 --> 01:40:05.000
But in terms of our actual show coming back again, we are looking at dates for

01:40:05.000 --> 01:40:07.060
the summer and have not announced those yet.

01:40:07.200 --> 01:40:11.500
But they'll be announced very soon. And we're excited to get back because this

01:40:11.500 --> 01:40:14.180
history is not Black history. It's American history.

01:40:14.380 --> 01:40:19.940
And everybody needs to know. And we're open to wherever we need to go. to carry this message.

01:40:20.260 --> 01:40:23.440
It is really the work of my life and I'm grateful to be able to do it.

01:40:24.060 --> 01:40:28.800
Well, Dr. Ted Williams III, it's been an honor to talk to you,

01:40:29.686 --> 01:40:34.686
have an open invitation to come back on and maybe we'll have a little more time.

01:40:34.886 --> 01:40:37.766
Although we did spend a good amount of time, but we'll, we could,

01:40:37.766 --> 01:40:41.046
we could flesh, we could flesh out some more things when you come back,

01:40:41.186 --> 01:40:45.846
brother, and continue success on what you're doing. I'm glad that you're healed.

01:40:49.786 --> 01:40:53.166
Yes, sir. But, uh, but again, thank you for coming on the podcast.

01:40:53.386 --> 01:40:57.146
I greatly appreciate Brother Fleming, I appreciate you finding me.

01:40:57.426 --> 01:41:02.766
I appreciate you having a platform like this. I've enjoyed this conversation with you.

01:41:03.006 --> 01:41:07.266
I would love to come back and dig a little deeper. So we'll figure that out here.

01:41:07.546 --> 01:41:13.226
But I am just honored and also proud of your work because we got to do this.

01:41:13.306 --> 01:41:16.366
And I'm going to start listening to your podcast now, now that I'm become a

01:41:16.366 --> 01:41:20.286
fan, okay? So I'll be listening and I'm sure you have some great guests and things like that.

01:41:20.406 --> 01:41:25.726
But you keep up the work too because we need all of us on various fronts to

01:41:25.726 --> 01:41:28.106
educate and inspire people, right?

01:41:28.566 --> 01:41:32.886
Towards empathy and critical thinking and the justice that needs to happen.

01:41:33.086 --> 01:41:36.026
And, you know, as Dr. King said, and I'll close out with this,

01:41:36.246 --> 01:41:40.726
he said, I may not get there with you, you know, but I want you to know tonight

01:41:40.726 --> 01:41:43.446
that we as a people will get to the promised land.

01:41:43.986 --> 01:41:48.926
And that was, as many people know, delivered April 3rd, 1968,

01:41:49.626 --> 01:41:51.486
the night before he was assassinated.

01:41:52.326 --> 01:41:57.086
And I believe that we all have to push the ball, you know, in our generation

01:41:57.086 --> 01:41:59.026
as the biblical concept as well, too.

01:41:59.586 --> 01:42:01.846
And so you keep doing what you're doing. I'll do what I'm doing.

01:42:02.006 --> 01:42:04.826
We're going to educate some younger people, get them doing it, man.

01:42:05.046 --> 01:42:09.126
And prayerfully, we will get to the promised land, brother. So I'm grateful.

01:42:09.286 --> 01:42:12.426
Have a wonderful day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you, brother.

01:42:12.846 --> 01:42:14.886
All right, guys, and we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

01:42:14.960 --> 01:42:25.200
Music.

01:42:26.746 --> 01:42:34.726
All right, and we are back. So I want to thank Samuel Ashworth for coming on,

01:42:35.026 --> 01:42:39.846
and he enjoyed it. And I hope that you enjoyed the interview as well.

01:42:39.966 --> 01:42:47.106
It was a lot of fun doing it that way, and hopefully that got you interested

01:42:47.106 --> 01:42:50.646
in buying the book, The Death and Life of August Sweeney.

01:42:52.408 --> 01:42:57.268
And you'll enjoy it because it's a rich book, right?

01:42:58.388 --> 01:43:05.708
Builds up the main characters really well. And I think it's a story that a lot

01:43:05.708 --> 01:43:08.728
of us can relate to, if not personally somebody we know.

01:43:09.828 --> 01:43:17.848
So, and I really hope that you liked our exchange, incorporating politics into

01:43:17.848 --> 01:43:20.168
a book that's really not political, right?

01:43:21.148 --> 01:43:25.868
And then I want to thank Dr. Ted Williams III for taking time out of his hectic

01:43:25.868 --> 01:43:34.128
schedule to come on and talk about issues dealing with reparations and just

01:43:34.128 --> 01:43:36.308
y'all get to know a little bit about him.

01:43:37.028 --> 01:43:41.968
Because I think it's important not just to, in my style,

01:43:43.028 --> 01:43:50.728
not just to deal with the folks because of what they do or what they've written or whatever,

01:43:51.388 --> 01:43:56.908
but to get to know them as human beings because the underlying factor in all

01:43:56.908 --> 01:44:01.788
this is that politics impacts the lives of human beings.

01:44:04.128 --> 01:44:09.568
And sometimes I think the human beings that are given positions forget that

01:44:09.568 --> 01:44:11.988
and I'll dive into that a little more.

01:44:12.188 --> 01:44:15.168
So I just want to thank Dr. Williams.

01:44:17.768 --> 01:44:22.868
To helping put that in perspective a little bit in his interview and to address

01:44:22.868 --> 01:44:26.848
the issues that I wanted to address with him. Okay.

01:44:27.670 --> 01:44:33.270
And Professor Roberts, Rick Roberts, for providing that information for me to

01:44:33.270 --> 01:44:34.670
read, dealing with tariffs.

01:44:35.270 --> 01:44:42.090
As stated earlier, he wanted to record it, but it didn't work out the way he

01:44:42.090 --> 01:44:46.990
wanted to because he is human and he is a professor and they are in school.

01:44:47.550 --> 01:44:52.530
And so at least he had the time to write that out for me. And Dr.

01:44:52.630 --> 01:44:58.990
Roberts, Professor Roberts, I greatly appreciate that and look forward to you coming on.

01:44:59.150 --> 01:45:03.170
He did commit while he was doing all that for me that he was going to come back

01:45:03.170 --> 01:45:07.690
on and kind of assess where we are when he does come on.

01:45:08.850 --> 01:45:13.590
So speaking about assessment, I got on Twitter.

01:45:14.870 --> 01:45:22.090
I'm recording this. Oh, by the way, so this episode is going to drop on St. Patrick's Day.

01:45:22.370 --> 01:45:26.850
So happy St. Patrick's Day to everybody, since I didn't do that in the intro.

01:45:28.130 --> 01:45:34.330
And the luck of the Irish really needs to fall upon these folks I'm going to

01:45:34.330 --> 01:45:36.750
talk about. But I think it's too late.

01:45:38.550 --> 01:45:42.450
And so let me kind of get into that a little bit.

01:45:43.850 --> 01:45:51.990
If I can. And I just really am disappointed beyond measure.

01:45:53.610 --> 01:45:59.970
And, you know, it's just one of those things that I didn't think was going to

01:45:59.970 --> 01:46:02.590
happen in my lifetime. Yeah.

01:46:03.958 --> 01:46:09.798
Year. And it's really, really sad that we're at this point.

01:46:10.638 --> 01:46:16.078
But I just, I'm really almost at a loss for words.

01:46:17.178 --> 01:46:25.738
So I got on Twitter, y'all call it X, and basically gave the obituary for the

01:46:25.738 --> 01:46:27.498
Democratic Party of the United States.

01:46:28.618 --> 01:46:33.838
And like I said, as I'm recording this, the reason why I gave the obituary was

01:46:33.838 --> 01:46:43.558
because later on today, I'm recording this on Friday, and the vote for the,

01:46:44.358 --> 01:46:52.398
continuing resolution to keep the government functioning until September has

01:46:52.398 --> 01:46:54.958
not been voted on yet, at least not on the Senate side.

01:46:55.098 --> 01:46:59.678
The House passed it, as you heard on the news, But there was a question about

01:46:59.678 --> 01:47:02.458
the Democrats supporting it.

01:47:02.978 --> 01:47:09.038
For those who don't quite understand, the dynamic is that today they're voting

01:47:09.038 --> 01:47:14.738
on what they call cloture, which to make it simple, they're basically voting

01:47:14.738 --> 01:47:17.758
to bring it on the floor to vote.

01:47:17.758 --> 01:47:24.978
And then after it's, excuse me, been moved to be on the floor,

01:47:25.318 --> 01:47:28.898
then they can have the official vote on the legislation.

01:47:29.338 --> 01:47:35.018
But you need to have, according to the crazy rules that both the Democrats and

01:47:35.018 --> 01:47:43.518
Republicans agree to, you got to have 60 votes out of 100 to bring it out of cloture.

01:47:43.518 --> 01:47:54.618
And you know it all depends who's the minority party how that benefits them right and you know.

01:47:55.766 --> 01:47:59.986
One of the things that happened was that when it passed on the House side,

01:48:00.306 --> 01:48:05.466
only one Democrat voted for the House version of the bill, of the resolution.

01:48:06.506 --> 01:48:11.586
And there's this group, No Labels, who I've been trying to get somebody from

01:48:11.586 --> 01:48:12.986
the organization to come on.

01:48:13.246 --> 01:48:18.746
And I understand I'm not, you know, Pod Save America, Joe Rogan.

01:48:18.946 --> 01:48:23.906
I ain't got like five million viewers, so you may not think it's important to

01:48:23.906 --> 01:48:27.046
come on. But, you know, at least I invited them.

01:48:27.786 --> 01:48:33.146
So it's on them that they didn't come on. But nonetheless, they wanted to tout

01:48:33.146 --> 01:48:37.066
the Democrat that voted for the continuing resolution.

01:48:37.806 --> 01:48:46.646
And I responded to them that their lack of awareness is alarming or something to that effect.

01:48:46.646 --> 01:48:56.566
I mean, you can go on my ex in Twitter, whatever, and see what I said exactly.

01:48:57.446 --> 01:49:03.306
But then on the Senate side, one of the Republicans said that they're not voting

01:49:03.306 --> 01:49:04.606
for it. I think it was Rand Paul.

01:49:06.006 --> 01:49:13.166
And so that means that eight Democrats would have to vote for it.

01:49:14.527 --> 01:49:23.107
For it to pass. If it does not pass, then the government is shut down as of

01:49:23.107 --> 01:49:25.547
this upcoming weekend as I'm recording this.

01:49:26.487 --> 01:49:31.387
So, you know, the plan in my mind was thinking when this show dropped,

01:49:31.707 --> 01:49:33.267
we would be in a shutdown.

01:49:35.147 --> 01:49:43.887
Because I felt that the Democrats shouldn't vote for it, just like on the House side.

01:49:44.927 --> 01:49:48.507
And initially, that was the plan.

01:49:49.287 --> 01:49:54.727
But then yesterday, Senator Chuck Schumer, who I have no real love for,

01:49:55.167 --> 01:50:00.147
and that's personal with me because when he was over the Democratic Senate Campaign

01:50:00.147 --> 01:50:03.347
Committee, he did everything he could not to help me.

01:50:03.607 --> 01:50:08.587
And if it wasn't for the AFL-CIO, the national AFL-CIO, and of course,

01:50:08.707 --> 01:50:12.467
the Mississippi chapter, I wouldn't have got any support from them.

01:50:13.187 --> 01:50:16.327
So I don't have any love lost with Chuck Schumer.

01:50:16.467 --> 01:50:21.587
He doesn't know who I am from Adam's house cat, and he never cared to know, but that's okay.

01:50:22.027 --> 01:50:26.127
You know, that's been over almost 20 years ago, whatever.

01:50:27.547 --> 01:50:31.667
But at the time, that was pretty painful that the chairman of the Democratic

01:50:31.667 --> 01:50:35.907
Senate Campaign Committee wouldn't do anything to help.

01:50:36.507 --> 01:50:41.967
As a matter of fact, they did everything to try to either ignore me or embarrass me, right?

01:50:42.947 --> 01:50:47.547
So you tend to remember that. Now, I'm not in a position to do anything,

01:50:47.547 --> 01:50:53.527
so there's no need for me to, quote unquote, have a grudge, but he ain't my friend.

01:50:55.287 --> 01:51:00.767
And even though he has had some magic moments, the true character of him comes

01:51:00.767 --> 01:51:01.967
out in moments like this.

01:51:02.267 --> 01:51:06.207
And so earlier they said, oh no, we're not voting for that, blah, blah.

01:51:06.367 --> 01:51:10.367
And then yesterday, Thursday, which was March 13th,

01:51:11.664 --> 01:51:18.704
2025, he basically killed the Democratic Party of the United States, as we know it, right?

01:51:20.084 --> 01:51:23.964
Because he got up and said that he was going to support it.

01:51:25.484 --> 01:51:31.104
Now, if it was just like, okay, he's going to do it and nobody else is going

01:51:31.104 --> 01:51:36.364
to do it, if he had just kind of said it in a press conference or something like that, okay.

01:51:36.964 --> 01:51:41.724
But he's the minority leader in the Senate. He is the leader of the Democrats in the Senate.

01:51:42.064 --> 01:51:46.764
So for him to get on the floor and say that, that means he's got seven other

01:51:46.764 --> 01:51:48.744
senators that are going to vote with him.

01:51:49.944 --> 01:51:53.904
And so him and those seven other senators, and one of them is going to be John

01:51:53.904 --> 01:51:58.564
Fetterman, who I don't, you know, I don't know what goes on with these people.

01:51:58.944 --> 01:52:05.184
I really don't. It's something about landing at Reagan National Airport,

01:52:05.524 --> 01:52:12.084
crossing that Potomac River, landing in that basin that makes people lose touch with their minds.

01:52:12.784 --> 01:52:17.884
John Fetterman, people were defending him because he had just suffered a stroke.

01:52:19.304 --> 01:52:24.104
And people were showing empathy and people were showing true commitment.

01:52:24.484 --> 01:52:27.484
And since he said he was willing to fight on and keep running,

01:52:28.004 --> 01:52:32.924
people supported him. And he got elected to the United States Senate after suffering

01:52:32.924 --> 01:52:35.544
a stroke, which could have killed him. Right.

01:52:36.324 --> 01:52:42.044
And so, thank goodness now he's healthier and he's he's able to talk better.

01:52:42.384 --> 01:52:46.204
And he's he's he still has some struggles, but not like he did,

01:52:46.384 --> 01:52:49.264
you know, when he first got in there while he was campaigning.

01:52:50.044 --> 01:52:55.304
And for him to now kind of get into this mode, well, you know,

01:52:55.724 --> 01:52:59.124
I'm just trying to be a peacemaker and all that stuff. It's like,

01:52:59.224 --> 01:53:00.824
dude, you look like that.

01:53:01.304 --> 01:53:05.984
If you have seen Reacher, that show that comes on Amazon Prime,

01:53:06.084 --> 01:53:11.044
if you've seen Reacher, that's John Fetterman, right? Right.

01:53:12.444 --> 01:53:19.784
This giant man who, you know, was combative when he got elected to the Senate.

01:53:20.304 --> 01:53:25.224
And now I guess that he's been there and he's he's got a few perks and privileges

01:53:25.224 --> 01:53:27.364
and all that stuff. Now he's not the tough guy.

01:53:27.524 --> 01:53:32.524
Now he's the reconciliator in a time when we need tough guys. Right.

01:53:33.404 --> 01:53:37.084
So the Rand Paul's vote was already canceled out with Fetterman.

01:53:37.284 --> 01:53:40.824
And then when Chuck Schumer got up there and spoke.

01:53:41.764 --> 01:53:46.024
But that's that's it. That's ballgame. That's the end of the story,

01:53:46.024 --> 01:53:51.324
because there'll be six other Democrats that want to curry favor with Schumer.

01:53:52.184 --> 01:53:57.264
Although I will give John Ossoff credit because John is going to be up for reelection

01:53:57.264 --> 01:54:03.564
in 2026. He's one of the senators from Georgia, and he said he's voting no.

01:54:04.184 --> 01:54:08.544
Right. So and Marjorie Taylor Greene's talking about running against him.

01:54:10.089 --> 01:54:15.509
So for him to take that stand, that's that's the courage we're looking for.

01:54:15.889 --> 01:54:23.089
But he's not a saint on some issues, but we'll you know, we can deal with issues.

01:54:23.369 --> 01:54:27.429
Right. But we're talking about fighting for.

01:54:28.449 --> 01:54:36.129
The institution. And a micro the U.S. Congress and the macro the United States government.

01:54:36.909 --> 01:54:41.149
Just last week, I said, people, the Democrats have to do something drastic.

01:54:41.369 --> 01:54:47.169
They had the ping pong paddles last week at Trump's address to the Congress

01:54:47.169 --> 01:54:49.249
instead of just walking out.

01:54:49.549 --> 01:54:51.649
Right. Tone deaf on that.

01:54:52.449 --> 01:54:58.769
Only Al Green got the memo to challenge him. Right. If you're going to be there, be disruptive.

01:54:59.549 --> 01:55:04.309
But you shouldn't have been there at all. Right. There shouldn't even been an Al Green moment.

01:55:04.449 --> 01:55:09.049
Everybody should have been gone. Everybody should have went back to their districts

01:55:09.049 --> 01:55:11.409
or whatever, right? Or their states.

01:55:12.249 --> 01:55:18.289
And then you follow it up this week by talking tough and within 24 hours.

01:55:18.449 --> 01:55:21.989
I just want you to understand that. It was like within 24 hours.

01:55:23.629 --> 01:55:28.509
Accentulate. You surrender. And then you try to say, oh, but it'll be much worse

01:55:28.509 --> 01:55:31.989
if it's a shutdown because he'll have total reign and all that stuff.

01:55:32.749 --> 01:55:37.189
No, he won't. If the government is shut down, it's shut down.

01:55:37.769 --> 01:55:43.309
Ain't no Doge happening. Ain't no Elon. None of that's happening.

01:55:43.889 --> 01:55:53.669
Now, it's unfortunate for people who still have a job with the federal government to, you know,

01:55:53.769 --> 01:55:59.589
be put in a situation where they're out of work and they can't get any back pay, which is insane.

01:56:00.089 --> 01:56:05.629
You budgeted the money. Why won't you pay these people for the time that they

01:56:05.629 --> 01:56:10.029
lost because of something that they had no control over?

01:56:10.729 --> 01:56:13.589
Right. You gave people back pay for 9-11.

01:56:14.669 --> 01:56:18.589
Why can't you give them back pay for a shutdown? I just don't understand it.

01:56:18.889 --> 01:56:22.249
And Congress still gets paid. Each member of Congress still gets a check,

01:56:22.269 --> 01:56:27.209
whether they're in session or not, whether the government is shut down or not. They all get paid.

01:56:27.929 --> 01:56:34.089
So I want that to rattle in your brain, too. So we don't want people to have inconvenience.

01:56:34.229 --> 01:56:39.089
But at the rate we're going, how secure is a government job anyway?

01:56:39.569 --> 01:56:46.349
When you got to have federal judges saying you need to hire these people back that you just got fired.

01:56:46.469 --> 01:56:48.669
You didn't have the authority to fire these people.

01:56:49.409 --> 01:56:54.849
So you need to hire them back. Only to have some people in the administration say make us.

01:56:55.549 --> 01:57:03.589
Right. There's even talk about how can we give to judicial branch enforcement

01:57:03.589 --> 01:57:10.689
teeth to make sure these people follow the decisions that they make.

01:57:12.049 --> 01:57:16.149
That's how defiant this administration is to the courts.

01:57:16.949 --> 01:57:23.709
But when you elect a criminal, criminals don't like courts, especially convicted

01:57:23.709 --> 01:57:25.729
ones. They're not big fans of the courts.

01:57:26.249 --> 01:57:28.069
It doesn't matter what they're convicted of.

01:57:28.609 --> 01:57:34.189
That's just natural. They're not going to be saying, oh, it was fair and blah, blah.

01:57:34.549 --> 01:57:37.289
They're not going to do that because it personally affected them.

01:57:38.089 --> 01:57:44.829
So why would we think that this criminal who occupies the house at 1600 Pennsylvania

01:57:44.829 --> 01:57:46.569
Avenue would be any different?

01:57:48.304 --> 01:57:54.264
Should be in jail, but he is the president of the United States. So there's that.

01:57:55.724 --> 01:58:03.864
So you think, Chuck Schumer, that shutting down the government would make it

01:58:03.864 --> 01:58:08.804
easier for him, a man who has no boundaries.

01:58:09.984 --> 01:58:14.024
He's basically got to get out of jail free card thanks to the Supreme Court,

01:58:14.284 --> 01:58:18.104
as far as anything he does as president, illegal.

01:58:19.044 --> 01:58:24.124
All you got to say is, well, I was just acting as president. I didn't know. Okay.

01:58:25.744 --> 01:58:30.384
Or did it ever occur to you that in this time that's not normal,

01:58:30.564 --> 01:58:33.424
that you got to do something to shake things up?

01:58:34.004 --> 01:58:36.004
You've got to have some leverage.

01:58:37.204 --> 01:58:41.244
You got to be able to look these folks in the eye and say, all right,

01:58:41.404 --> 01:58:43.924
it's time for this weird stuff to end.

01:58:44.644 --> 01:58:51.704
It's time for y'all to grow up and do things in decency and in order.

01:58:52.044 --> 01:58:54.844
We have put up with this mess for a decade.

01:58:55.464 --> 01:59:01.124
Ever since that dude, Donald Trump, came down an escalator.

01:59:01.804 --> 01:59:06.064
He was going down, and that was symbolic of the country going down.

01:59:06.744 --> 01:59:11.104
As far as political efficacy, as far as political commitment,

01:59:11.424 --> 01:59:14.344
as far as political everything,

01:59:14.844 --> 01:59:20.384
the quorum, all that came down with him coming down the escalator.

01:59:20.504 --> 01:59:21.964
That was the perfect metaphor.

01:59:22.984 --> 01:59:28.384
But somehow in the minds of some of these people that have been in the institution

01:59:28.384 --> 01:59:32.944
for a while, that they think Oh, the glory days are coming back.

01:59:33.684 --> 01:59:39.264
Barack Obama said in the early 2000s, it's time for a new normal.

01:59:40.104 --> 01:59:41.324
Y'all didn't get the memo?

01:59:42.324 --> 01:59:46.864
Over the last 10 years, y'all haven't picked up the fact that what you thought

01:59:46.864 --> 01:59:48.644
was cool is not cool anymore?

01:59:48.644 --> 01:59:53.544
Yes, I would love to get to a point, and I have preached this on the podcast,

01:59:53.544 --> 01:59:57.804
that we need to get back to civil discourse and debating the issues and having

01:59:57.804 --> 01:59:59.864
intelligence discussions on the issues.

02:00:00.744 --> 02:00:04.024
But, you know, sometimes you got to shake things up.

02:00:04.584 --> 02:00:08.144
You know, the Republicans all into spankings and all that. Well,

02:00:08.704 --> 02:00:11.004
maybe they need one for sure.

02:00:12.871 --> 02:00:16.491
Need to shut down the government to get their attention.

02:00:17.351 --> 02:00:24.011
Black Lives Matter protesters shut down conventions and highways,

02:00:24.011 --> 02:00:26.751
and they got your attention.

02:00:27.471 --> 02:00:31.691
That's when all these corporations started saying, oh, DEI, and we love black

02:00:31.691 --> 02:00:33.771
people, and all this stuff. They got your attention.

02:00:34.751 --> 02:00:39.091
So why not shut down the government to get these folks' attention?

02:00:39.651 --> 02:00:44.631
You can blame all you want to. You can play the spin game. I've been playing the spin game forever.

02:00:45.491 --> 02:00:49.611
At some point, you just don't care what they say.

02:00:50.031 --> 02:00:54.311
Either you're going to stop doing this or we're just going to stop altogether.

02:00:54.731 --> 02:00:56.071
We're just going to shut it down.

02:00:56.511 --> 02:00:58.391
Then you will have nothing to play with.

02:00:59.131 --> 02:01:04.931
But when you capitulate, I'm just glad Zelensky is the president of Ukraine and not Schumer.

02:01:05.751 --> 02:01:09.571
Because if Schumer was the president of Ukraine, we wouldn't be having this

02:01:09.571 --> 02:01:13.571
discussion about Abe because he would have surrendered within the three days.

02:01:14.491 --> 02:01:18.131
We need fighters, ladies and gentlemen. We need people in the office.

02:01:18.291 --> 02:01:22.431
When you're talking about an American leader, the most powerful characteristic

02:01:22.431 --> 02:01:25.891
that person has is that they're going to fight for the ideals of America.

02:01:26.151 --> 02:01:27.611
They're going to fight for it.

02:01:27.931 --> 02:01:33.031
They're not going to play a game and play altruistic bingo.

02:01:33.191 --> 02:01:36.371
No, this is real. This is really happening right now.

02:01:36.711 --> 02:01:40.151
The richest man in the world has teamed up with the most powerful man in the

02:01:40.151 --> 02:01:43.511
world to destroy the government that impacts all of us.

02:01:44.211 --> 02:01:49.511
They're literally selling Teslas on the White House lawn. That's how far we've devolved.

02:01:51.374 --> 02:01:58.494
Surrender to that, you and seven other senators, including Fetterman,

02:01:59.454 --> 02:02:00.454
y'all going to give this up.

02:02:01.634 --> 02:02:08.194
So if those people do what they say they're going to do, because we don't know who the other six are,

02:02:08.574 --> 02:02:14.394
but if those eight senators vote to pass this resolution, then the Democratic

02:02:14.394 --> 02:02:17.974
Party of the United States, the oldest political party in the world,

02:02:18.274 --> 02:02:21.374
a party that has existed since 1828,

02:02:21.774 --> 02:02:23.354
will be no more.

02:02:23.794 --> 02:02:27.134
I did a podcast talking about the return of good feelings.

02:02:27.654 --> 02:02:32.094
And in my hypothesis, I thought because how extreme the Republicans were,

02:02:32.354 --> 02:02:39.054
that they were going to be pushed to irrelevancy and that the same people would

02:02:39.054 --> 02:02:42.654
run and maybe down the road, a new party will emerge.

02:02:43.534 --> 02:02:46.674
Well, lo and behold, how wrong was I?

02:02:47.214 --> 02:02:51.374
The irrelevant party seems to be the Democratic Party, the party that I'm affiliated

02:02:51.374 --> 02:02:54.994
with. And that's why I'm upset. And that's why I'm grieving.

02:02:55.654 --> 02:03:00.914
Because I never thought in my active years like that, because,

02:03:00.974 --> 02:03:08.994
you know, if I'm 90 or 100, well, you know, century long enough, see some kind of change.

02:03:08.994 --> 02:03:15.694
But in my active years, in a time where I'm still, quote unquote,

02:03:15.874 --> 02:03:18.734
young enough to run for something under the Democratic banner,

02:03:19.334 --> 02:03:21.534
I don't have a party anymore.

02:03:22.354 --> 02:03:28.434
I'm a nomad. When people refer to me, they say, oh, he's with the extinct tribe.

02:03:28.774 --> 02:03:31.274
He's one of the few Democrats that's still left.

02:03:32.414 --> 02:03:35.534
All because of a lack of courage and leadership.

02:03:36.374 --> 02:03:45.654
All because of lack of a backbone. all because of a naivete that is nauseating.

02:03:46.674 --> 02:03:50.294
I want to believe that good things can happen.

02:03:51.074 --> 02:03:55.014
But I also understand that some BS is going to happen too.

02:03:55.594 --> 02:03:59.714
You got to navigate through the BS because the BS is just like cold air.

02:03:59.854 --> 02:04:00.674
It's at the lowest level.

02:04:01.074 --> 02:04:05.234
In order to get to the warm air up top, you're going to have to fight through it.

02:04:05.974 --> 02:04:09.054
And if you're not willing to fight, then get out of the way.

02:04:10.174 --> 02:04:13.374
General Patton may have been a racist, but he was right about that.

02:04:13.974 --> 02:04:15.874
Either you fight or get out of the way.

02:04:17.554 --> 02:04:20.574
Especially if you're going to be an impediment to those of us that want to fight.

02:04:21.154 --> 02:04:25.974
Get out of the way. If you don't want to fight, then step down as the minority leader.

02:04:26.594 --> 02:04:28.434
Just be a senator from New York.

02:04:30.354 --> 02:04:35.034
You like the power. You like the trappings. You like the ambiance.

02:04:35.714 --> 02:04:39.634
But it's not about the trappings. It's about the work.

02:04:40.134 --> 02:04:44.754
If you're not going to fight for what you supposedly believe it,

02:04:45.414 --> 02:04:50.954
because I question that too, especially in this time, if you're not going to

02:04:50.954 --> 02:04:54.274
fight, then step aside. Leave it alone.

02:04:55.134 --> 02:04:58.894
There were people asking me to step aside because I sent an email,

02:04:59.294 --> 02:05:04.254
an email that was meant for one person, and it went everywhere.

02:05:05.154 --> 02:05:09.694
They literally had a poll at a TV station, ask it be to quit.

02:05:10.394 --> 02:05:13.934
And that station director came to me and said, how you doing?

02:05:13.994 --> 02:05:18.514
I said, I'd be doing a lot better if you stop trying to get me to quit my job, right?

02:05:18.834 --> 02:05:24.854
That was an email. And I'm not saying I was wrong or whatever, right?

02:05:25.654 --> 02:05:31.094
That's irrelevant. at this point, because I did what I had to do at the time

02:05:31.094 --> 02:05:35.874
to address it and got reelected after that, right?

02:05:36.594 --> 02:05:40.454
But it was like people were asking for my job for an email.

02:05:41.454 --> 02:05:48.234
You are about to destroy the oldest political party and you get to keep your job?

02:05:49.154 --> 02:05:51.914
That's crazy. That's insane.

02:05:53.394 --> 02:05:57.594
And for those folks who think this is hyperbolic, just keep watching.

02:05:57.974 --> 02:06:01.854
If this vote goes down the way that Chuck Schumer wants it to go down and they

02:06:01.854 --> 02:06:04.134
pass that resolution, watch.

02:06:05.434 --> 02:06:11.774
When I put that out there on Facebook, people who were Democratic advocates

02:06:11.774 --> 02:06:14.494
said, yep, you're right.

02:06:15.494 --> 02:06:22.134
People that I know have raised money, that are raising money right now for Democratic candidates.

02:06:22.774 --> 02:06:27.454
People that have fought on issues, that I've fought with side by side on issues.

02:06:28.254 --> 02:06:35.294
They didn't say, Eric, you might be overdoing it. They said, yep, exactly.

02:06:35.934 --> 02:06:38.534
Because they understand what's at stake.

02:06:39.314 --> 02:06:43.814
They understand the fight of the lifetime that we are in.

02:06:44.694 --> 02:06:51.594
This is it, y'all. And I know people say, oh, but Kamala Harris had won.

02:06:52.274 --> 02:06:57.434
Be business as usual, which may be good, may not be good, but it's better than

02:06:57.434 --> 02:06:58.394
what we're dealing with now.

02:06:59.354 --> 02:07:03.294
So since we can't turn back time and get her elected.

02:07:04.914 --> 02:07:07.734
OK, so now we're going to have to deal with this.

02:07:09.554 --> 02:07:14.914
So understanding since November that we were going to have to be in a fight

02:07:14.914 --> 02:07:21.594
for the next four years, not the next two, the next four, because the midterms

02:07:21.594 --> 02:07:24.334
are not guaranteed. And especially now.

02:07:26.321 --> 02:07:29.761
Are mad when you send them an email saying, give me money.

02:07:30.341 --> 02:07:36.401
You were sending emails asking for money from us after Kamala had just lost.

02:07:37.401 --> 02:07:41.541
Didn't think, yeah, we might need a week to kind of let everybody process this.

02:07:42.061 --> 02:07:49.201
No, you went right back to asking us for money to build our hopes up again, only to throw it away.

02:07:49.881 --> 02:07:55.641
And I got people I don't even know, don't know what kind of a chance they have

02:07:55.641 --> 02:08:00.601
or when I'm getting solicitations every day on all three of my email accounts.

02:08:01.881 --> 02:08:08.681
And yet, when you have a chance to show what we're investing in, you surrender.

02:08:09.721 --> 02:08:16.781
I don't understand. I'm not giving money to a burial fund.

02:08:16.981 --> 02:08:21.621
I'm giving money to a building fund, right? There's a difference.

02:08:22.561 --> 02:08:27.101
When I give to a burial fund, I hope none of the money is ever used.

02:08:27.521 --> 02:08:31.781
When I give to a building fund, I expect to see progress.

02:08:32.721 --> 02:08:39.481
If you are asking people for money, then earn it. Fight for them.

02:08:40.441 --> 02:08:43.601
Fight for this government. Fight for this nation.

02:08:44.461 --> 02:08:47.841
Don't try to play 4D chess on a checkerboard.

02:08:48.641 --> 02:08:54.081
That's not how this works. If you're going to fight, fight.

02:08:54.401 --> 02:08:57.821
If you're not going to fight, get out of the way.

02:08:59.641 --> 02:09:04.961
And I hate to say that the Democratic Party that I grew up in,

02:09:05.221 --> 02:09:13.841
that I've been an activist in, I've been an elected official and a candidate in, is no longer here.

02:09:13.841 --> 02:09:20.581
And I'm going to have to deal with that on this podcast and any other venue

02:09:20.581 --> 02:09:24.661
that I participate in. And that's going to be hard.

02:09:25.261 --> 02:09:31.661
But what I hope emerges from the death of the oldest political party in the

02:09:31.661 --> 02:09:39.221
world is that a new party emerges that remembers what it means to be an American,

02:09:40.001 --> 02:09:44.881
and that they will fight for this nation to the very end.

02:09:45.701 --> 02:09:48.341
Thank you for listening. Until next time.

02:09:48.560 --> 02:10:36.653
Music.